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what did the professor think about latencies ? </s> phd a: it 's not very significant . professor b: uh , channel one . yes . grad d: channel three . professor b: ok . phd f: mm - hmm . grad d: channel three . phd a: ta grad d: channel three . alright . professor b: ok , did you solve speech recognition last week ? grad e: almost . professor b: alright ! let 's do image processing . phd c: yes , again . phd a: great . phd c: we did it again , morgan . professor b: alright ! grad e: doo - doop , doo - doo . phd a: what 's wrong with ? professor b: ok . it 's april fifth . actually , hynek should be getting back in town shortly if he is n't already . phd c: is he gon na come here ? professor b: uh . well , we 'll drag him here . i know where he is . phd c: so when you said `` in town `` , you mean oregon . professor b: u u u u uh , i meant , you know , this end of the world , yeah , is really what i meant , phd c: oh . grad e: doo , doo - doo . professor b: uh , cuz he 's been in europe . grad e: doo - doo . professor b: so . phd c: i have something just fairly brief to report on . professor b: mmm . phd c: um , i did some experim uh , uh , just a few more experiments before i had to , uh , go away for the w well , that week . professor b: great ! phd c: was it last week or whenever ? um , so what i was started playing with was the th again , this is the htk back - end . and , um , i was curious because the way that they train up the models , they go through about four sort of rounds of of training . and in the first round they do uh , i think it 's three iterations , and for the last three rounds e e they do seven iterations of re - estimation in each of those three . and so , you know , that 's part of what takes so long to train the the the back - end for this . professor b: i 'm sorry , i did n't quite get that . there 's there 's four and there 's seven and i i 'm sorry . phd c: yeah . uh , maybe i should write it on the board . so , there 's four rounds of training . um , i g i g i guess you could say iterations . the first one is three , then seven , seven , and seven . and what these numbers refer to is the number of times that the , uh , hmm re - estimation is run . it 's this program called h e professor b: but in htk , what 's the difference between , uh , a an inner loop and an outer loop in these iterations ? phd c: ok . so what happens is , um , at each one of these points , you increase the number of gaussians in the model . professor b: yeah . oh , right ! this was the mix up stuff . phd c: yeah . the mix up . professor b: that 's right . phd c: right . professor b: i remember now . phd c: and so , in the final one here , you end up with , uh for all of the the digit words , you end up with , uh , three mixtures per state , professor b: yeah . phd c: eh , in the final thing . so i had done some experiments where i was i i want to play with the number of mixtures . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: but , um , uh , i wanted to first test to see if we actually need to do this many iterations early on . grad e: uh , one , two , professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: and so , um , i i ran a couple of experiments where i reduced that to l to be three , two , two , uh , five , i think , and i got almost the exact same results . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: and but it runs much much faster . so , um , i i think m it only took something like , uh , three or four hours to do the full training , professor b: as opposed to ? phd f: good . phd c: as opposed to wh what , sixteen hours or something like that ? i mean , it takes you have to do an overnight basically , the way it is set up now . phd f: yeah . it depends . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: so , uh , even we do n't do anything else , doing something like this could allow us to turn experiments around a lot faster . professor b: and then when you have your final thing , do a full one , so it 's phd c: and when you have your final thing , we go back to this . phd f: yeah . phd c: so , um , and it 's a real simple change to make . i mean , it 's like one little text file you edit and change those numbers , and you do n't do anything else . phd f: oh , this is a phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: and then you just run . phd f: ok . phd c: so it 's a very simple change to make and it does n't seem to hurt all that much . phd a: so you you run with three , two , two , five ? that 's a phd c: so i uh , i i have to look to see what the exact numbers were . phd a: yeah . phd c: i i thought was , like , three , two , two , five , phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: but i i 'll i 'll double check . it was over a week ago that i did it , phd a: ok . mm - hmm . phd c: so i ca n't remember exactly . grad e: oh . phd c: but , uh professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: um , but it 's so much faster . i it makes a big difference . grad e: hmm . phd c: so we could do a lot more experiments and throw a lot more stuff in there . phd f: yeah . professor b: that 's great . phd c: um . oh , the other thing that i did was , um , i compiled the htk stuff for the linux boxes . so we have this big thing that we got from ibm , which is a five - processor machine . really fast , but it 's running linux . so , you can now run your experiments on that machine and you can run five at a time and it runs , uh , as fast as , you know , uh , five different machines . phd a: mm - hmm . phd f: mm - hmm . phd c: so , um , i 've forgotten now what the name of that machine is but i can i can send email around about it . phd a: yeah . phd c: and so we 've got it now htk 's compiled for both the linux and for , um , the sparcs . um , you have to make you have to make sure that in your dot cshrc , um , it detects whether you 're running on the linux or a a sparc and points to the right executables . uh , and you may not have had that in your dot cshrc before , if you were always just running the sparc . so , um , phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: uh , i can i can tell you exactly what you need to do to get all of that to work . but it 'll it really increases what we can run on . grad e: hmm . cool . phd c: so , together with the fact that we 've got these faster linux boxes and that it takes less time to do these , um , we should be able to crank through a lot more experiments . phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: so . grad e: hmm . phd c: so after i did that , then what i wanted to do { comment } was try increasing the number of mixtures , just to see , um see how how that affects performance . phd a: yeah . phd c: so . professor b: yeah . in fact , you could do something like keep exactly the same procedure and then add a fifth thing onto it phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: that had more . phd c: exactly . professor b: yeah . phd c: right . right . grad e: so at at the middle o where the arrows are showing , that 's you 're adding one more mixture per state , phd c: uh - huh . uh , grad e: or ? phd c: let 's see , uh . it goes from this uh , try to go it backwards this at this point it 's two mixtures per state . so this just adds one . except that , uh , actually for the silence model , it 's six mixtures per state . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: uh , so it goes to two . grad e: ok . phd c: um . and i think what happens here is professor b: might be between , uh , shared , uh shared variances or something , phd c: yeah . i think that 's what it is . professor b: or phd c: uh , yeah . it 's , uh shoot . i i i ca n't remember now what happens at that first one . uh , i have to look it up and see . grad e: oh , ok . phd c: um , there because they start off with , uh , an initial model which is just this global model , and then they split it to the individuals . and so , it may be that that 's what 's happening here . i i i have to look it up and see . i i do n't exactly remember . grad e: ok . professor b: ok . phd c: so . that 's it . professor b: alright . so what else ? phd a: um . yeah . there was a conference call this tuesday . um . i do n't know yet the what happened tuesday , but the points that they were supposed to discuss is still , uh , things like the weights , uh professor b: oh , this is a conference call for , uh , uh , aurora participant sort of thing . grad e: for phd a: yeah . yeah . professor b: i see . phd a: mmm . professor b: do you know who was who was since we were n't in on it , uh , do you know who was in from ogi ? was was was hynek involved or was it sunil phd a: i have no idea . professor b: or ? phd a: mmm , i just professor b: oh , you do n't know . ok . phd a: yeah . professor b: alright . phd a: um , yeah . so the points were the the weights how to weight the different error rates that are obtained from different language and and conditions . um , it 's not clear that they will keep the same kind of weighting . right now it 's a weighting on on improvement . professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: some people are arguing that it would be better to have weights on uh well , to to combine error rates before computing improvement . uh , and the fact is that for right now for the english , they have weights they they combine error rates , but for the other languages they combine improvement . so it 's not very consistent . um professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . the , um yeah . and so well , this is a point . and right now actually there is a thing also , uh , that happens with the current weight is that a very non - significant improvement on the well - matched case result in huge differences in in the final number . professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: and so , perhaps they will change the weights to phd c: hmm . phd a: yeah . phd c: how should that be done ? i mean , it it seems like there 's a simple way phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: uh , this seems like an obvious mistake or something . professor b: well , i mean , the fact that it 's inconsistent is an obvious mistake . phd c: th - they 're professor b: but the but , um , the other thing phd a: in professor b: i do n't know i have n't thought it through , but one one would think that each it it 's like if you say what 's the what 's the best way to do an average , an arithmetic average or a geometric average ? phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: it depends what you wan na show . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: each each one is gon na have a different characteristic . phd a: yeah . professor b: so phd c: well , it seems like they should do , like , the percentage improvement or something , rather than the absolute improvement . phd a: tha - that 's what they do . professor b: well , they are doing that . phd a: yeah . professor b: no , that is relative . but the question is , do you average the relative improvements or do you average the error rates and take the relative improvement maybe of that ? phd a: yeah . yeah . professor b: and the thing is it 's not just a pure average because there are these weightings . phd c: oh . professor b: it 's a weighted average . um . phd a: yeah . and so when you average the the relative improvement it tends to to give a lot of of , um , importance to the well - matched case because the baseline is already very good and , um , i it 's phd c: why do n't they not look at improvements but just look at your av your scores ? you know , figure out how to combine the scores phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: with a weight or whatever , and then give you a score here 's your score . and then they can do the same thing for the baseline system and here 's its score . and then you can look at phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: well , that 's what he 's seeing as one of the things they could do . phd a: yeah . professor b: it 's just when you when you get all done , i think that they pro i m i i was n't there but i think they started off this process with the notion that you should be significantly better than the previous standard . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: and , um , so they said `` how much is significantly better ? what do you ? `` and and so they said `` well , you know , you should have half the errors , `` or something , `` that you had before `` . phd a: mm - hmm . hmm . phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . professor b: so it 's , uh , but it does seem like phd c: hmm . professor b: i i it does seem like it 's more logical to combine them first and then do the phd a: combine error rates and then professor b: yeah . phd a: yeah . well professor b: yeah . phd a: but there is this this is this still this problem of weights . when when you combine error rate it tends to give more importance to the difficult cases , and some people think that professor b: oh , yeah ? phd a: well , they have different , um , opinions about this . some people think that it 's more important to look at to have ten percent imp relative improvement on well - matched case than to have fifty percent on the m mismatched , and other people think that it 's more important to improve a lot on the mismatch and so , bu phd c: it sounds like they do n't really have a good idea about what the final application is gon na be . phd a: l de fff ! mmm . professor b: well , you know , the the thing is that if you look at the numbers on the on the more difficult cases , um , if you really believe that was gon na be the predominant use , none of this would be good enough . phd a: yeah . mmm . yeah . professor b: nothing anybody 's phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: whereas you sort of with some reasonable error recovery could imagine in the better cases that these these systems working . so , um , i think the hope would be that it would uh , it would work well for the good cases and , uh , it would have reasonable reas soft degradation as you got to worse and worse conditions . um . phd c: yeah . i i guess what i 'm i mean , i i was thinking about it in terms of , if i were building the final product and i was gon na test to see which front - end i 'd i wanted to use , i would try to weight things depending on the exact environment that i was gon na be using the system in . professor b: but but no . phd c: if i professor b: well , no well , no . i mean , it is n't the operating theater . i mean , they don they they do n't they do n't really know , i think . phd c: yeah . professor b: i mean , i th phd c: so if if they do n't know , does n't that suggest the way for them to go ? uh , you assume everything 's equal . i mean , y y i mean , you professor b: well , i mean , i i think one thing to do is to just not rely on a single number to maybe have two or three numbers , phd c: yeah . professor b: you know , phd c: right . professor b: and and and say here 's how much you , uh you improve the , uh the the relatively clean case and here 's or or well - matched case , and here 's how here 's how much you , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: uh phd c: so not professor b: so . phd c: so not try to combine them . professor b: yeah . uh , actually it 's true . phd c: yeah . professor b: uh , i had forgotten this , uh , but , uh , well - matched is not actually clean . what it is is just that , u uh , the training and testing are similar . phd c: the training and testing . phd a: mmm . professor b: so , i guess what you would do in practice is you 'd try to get as many , uh , examples of similar sort of stuff as you could , and then , phd c: yeah . professor b: uh so the argument for that being the the the more important thing , is that you 're gon na try and do that , but you wan na see how badly it deviates from that when when when the , uh it 's a little different . phd c: so professor b: um , phd c: so you should weight those other conditions v very you know , really small . professor b: but no . that 's a that 's a that 's an arg phd c: i mean , that 's more of an information kind of thing . professor b: that 's an ar well , that 's an argument for it , but let me give you the opposite argument . the opposite argument is you 're never really gon na have a good sample of all these different things . phd c: uh - huh . professor b: i mean , are you gon na have w uh , uh , examples with the windows open , half open , full open ? going seventy , sixty , fifty , forty miles an hour ? on what kind of roads ? phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: with what passing you ? with uh , i mean , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: i i i think that you could make the opposite argument that the well - matched case is a fantasy . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: you know , so , grad e: uh - huh . professor b: i think the thing is is that if you look at the well - matched case versus the po you know , the the medium and the and the fo and then the mismatched case , um , we 're seeing really , really big differences in performance . right ? and and y you would n't like that to be the case . you would n't like that as soon as you step outside you know , a lot of the the cases it 's is phd c: well , that 'll teach them to roll their window up . professor b: i mean , in these cases , if you go from the the , uh i mean , i do n't remember the numbers right off , but if you if you go from the well - matched case to the medium , it 's not an enormous difference in the in the the training - testing situation , and and and it 's a really big performance drop . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: you know , so , um yeah , i mean the reference one , for instance this is back old on , uh on italian uh , was like six percent error for the well - matched and eighteen for the medium - matched and sixty for the for highly - mismatched . uh , and , you know , with these other systems we we helped it out quite a bit , but still there 's there 's something like a factor of two or something between well - matched and medium - matched . and so i think that if what you 're if the goal of this is to come up with robust features , it does mean so you could argue , in fact , that the well - matched is something you should n't be looking at at all , that that the goal is to come up with features that will still give you reasonable performance , you know , with again gentle degregra degradation , um , even though the the testing condition is not the same as the training . phd c: hmm . professor b: so , you know , i i could argue strongly that something like the medium mismatch , which is you know not compl pathological but i mean , what was the the medium - mismatch condition again ? phd a: um , it 's yeah . medium mismatch is everything with the far microphone , but trained on , like , low noisy condition , like low speed and or stopped car and tested on high - speed conditions , i think , like on a highway and professor b: right . phd a: so professor b: so it 's still the same same microphone in both cases , phd a: same microphone but yeah . professor b: but , uh , it 's there 's a mismatch between the car conditions . and that 's uh , you could argue that 's a pretty realistic situation phd c: yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh , i 'd almost argue for weighting that highest . but the way they have it now , it 's i guess it 's it 's they they compute the relative improvement first and then average that with a weighting ? phd a: yeah . professor b: and so then the that that makes the highly - matched the really big thing . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: um , so , u i since they have these three categories , it seems like the reasonable thing to do is to go across the languages and to come up with an improvement for each of those . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: just say `` ok , in the in the highly - matched case this is what happens , in the m the , uh this other m medium if this happens , in the highly - mismatched that happens `` . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh , you should see , uh , a gentle degradation through that . phd a: mmm . professor b: um . but i do n't know . phd a: yeah . professor b: i think that that i i i gather that in these meetings it 's it 's really tricky to make anything ac make any { comment } policy change because everybody has has , uh , their own opinion phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and i do n't know . phd a: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd a: uh , so yeah . yeah , but there is probably a a big change that will be made is that the the baseline th they want to have a new baseline , perhaps , which is , um , mfcc but with a voice activity detector . and apparently , uh , some people are pushing to still keep this fifty percent number . so they want to have at least fifty percent improvement on the baseline , but w which would be a much better baseline . professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: and if we look at the result that sunil sent , just putting the vad in the baseline improved , like , more than twenty percent , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: which would mean then then mean that fifty percent on this new baseline is like , well , more than sixty percent improvement on on o e e uh professor b: so nobody would be there , probably . right ? phd a: right now , nobody would be there , but yeah . professor b: good . work to do . phd a: uh - huh . professor b: so whose vad is is is this a ? phd a: uh , they did n't decide yet . i guess i this was one point of the conference call also , but mmm , so i do n't know . um , but yeah . grad e: oh . professor b: oh , i i think th that would be good . i mean , it 's not that the design of the vad is n't important , but it 's just that it it it does seem to be i uh , a lot of work to do a good job on on that and as well as being a lot of work to do a good job on the feature design , phd a: yeah . professor b: so phd a: yeah . professor b: if we can cut down on that maybe we can make some progress . phd a: m yeah . grad e: hmm . phd a: but i guess perhaps i do n't know w yeah . uh , yeah . per - e s s someone told that perhaps it 's not fair to do that because the , um to make a good vad you do n't have enough to with the the features that are the baseline features . so mmm , you need more features . so you really need to put more more in the in in the front - end . professor b: yeah . phd a: so i professor b: um , phd a: s professor b: sure . but i bu phd c: wait a minute . i i 'm confused . phd a: yeah . phd c: wha - what do you mean ? phd a: yeah , if i professor b: so y so you m s yeah , but well , let 's say for ins see , mfcc for instance does n't have anything in it , uh , related to the pitch . so just just for example . so suppose you 've that what you really wan na do is put a good pitch detector on there and if it gets an unambiguous phd c: oh , oh . i see . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: if it gets an unambiguous result then you 're definitely in a in a in a voice in a , uh , s region with speech . uh . phd c: so there 's this assumption that the v the voice activity detector can only use the mfcc ? phd a: that 's not clear , but this e professor b: well , for the baseline . phd c: yeah . professor b: so so if you use other features then y but it 's just a question of what is your baseline . right ? what is it that you 're supposed to do better than ? phd c: i g yeah . professor b: and so having the baseline be the mfcc 's means that people could choose to pour their ener their effort into trying to do a really good vad phd c: i do n't s but they seem like two separate issues . professor b: or tryi they 're sort of separate . phd c: right ? i mean professor b: unfortunately there 's coupling between them , which is part of what i think stephane is getting to , is that you can choose your features in such a way as to improve the vad . phd a: yeah . professor b: and you also can choose your features in such a way as to prove improve recognition . they may not be the same thing . phd c: but it seems like you should do both . professor b: you should do both phd c: right ? professor b: and and i i think that this still makes i still think this makes sense as a baseline . it 's just saying , as a baseline , we know phd a: mmm . professor b: you know , we had the mfcc 's before , lots of people have done voice activity detectors , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: you might as well pick some voice activity detector and make that the baseline , just like you picked some version of htk and made that the baseline . phd a: yeah . right . professor b: and then let 's try and make everything better . um , and if one of the ways you make it better is by having your features be better features for the vad then that 's so be it . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: but , uh , uh , uh , at least you have a starting point that 's um , cuz i i some of the some of the people did n't have a vad at all , i guess . right ? and and phd a: yeah . professor b: then they they looked pretty bad and and in fact what they were doing was n't so bad at all . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: but , um . phd c: yeah . it seems like you should try to make your baseline as good as possible . and if it turns out that you ca n't improve on that , well , i mean , then , you know , nobody wins and you just use mfcc . right ? professor b: yeah . i mean , it seems like , uh , it should include sort of the current state of the art that you want are trying to improve , and mfcc 's , you know , or plp or something it seems like reasonable baseline for the features , and anybody doing this task , uh , is gon na have some sort of voice activity detection at some level , in some way . they might use the whole recognizer to do it but rather than a separate thing , but but they 'll have it on some level . so , um . phd c: it seems like whatever they choose they should n't , you know , purposefully brain - damage a part of the system to make a worse baseline , or professor b: well , i think people just had phd c: you know ? professor b: it was n't that they purposely brain - damaged it . i think people had n't really thought through about the , uh the vad issue . phd c: mmm . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and and then when the the the proposals actually came in and half of them had v a ds and half of them did n't , and the half that did did well and the half that did n't did poorly . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so it 's phd a: mm - hmm . um . professor b: uh . phd a: yeah . so we 'll see what happen with this . and yeah . so what happened since , um , last week is well , from ogi , these experiments on putting vad on the baseline . and these experiments also are using , uh , some kind of noise compensation , so spectral subtraction , and putting on - line normalization , um , just after this . so i think spectral subtraction , lda filtering , and on - line normalization , so which is similar to the pro proposal - one , but with spectral subtraction in addition , and it seems that on - line normalization does n't help further when you have spectral subtraction . phd c: is this related to the issue that you brought up a couple of meetings ago with the the musical tones phd a: i phd c: and ? phd a: i have no idea , because the issue i brought up was with a very simple spectral subtraction approach , phd c: mmm . phd a: and the one that they use at ogi is one from from the proposed the the the aurora prop uh , proposals , which might be much better . so , yeah . i asked sunil for more information about that , but , uh , i do n't know yet . um . and what 's happened here is that we so we have this kind of new , um , reference system which use a nice a a clean downsampling - upsampling , which use a new filter that 's much shorter and which also cuts the frequency below sixty - four hertz , professor b: right . phd a: which was not done on our first proposal . professor b: when you say `` we have that `` , does sunil have it now , too , phd a: i no . professor b: or ? phd a: no . professor b: ok . phd a: because we 're still testing . so we have the result for , uh , just the features professor b: ok . phd a: and we are currently testing with putting the neural network in the klt . um , it seems to improve on the well - matched case , um , but it 's a little bit worse on the mismatch and highly - mismatched i mean when we put the neural network . and with the current weighting i think it 's sh it will be better because the well - matched case is better . mmm . professor b: but how much worse since the weighting might change how how much worse is it on the other conditions , when you say it 's a little worse ? phd a: it 's like , uh , fff , fff { comment } um , { comment } ten percent relative . yeah . professor b: ok . um . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: but it has the , uh the latencies are much shorter . that 's phd a: uh - y w when i say it 's worse , it 's not it 's when i i uh , compare proposal - two to proposal - one , so , r uh , y putting neural network compared to n not having any neural network . i mean , this new system is is is better , professor b: uh - huh . phd a: because it has um , this sixty - four hertz cut - off , uh , clean downsampling , and , um what else ? uh , yeah , a good vad . we put the good vad . so . yeah , i do n't know . i i j uh , uh pr professor b: but the latencies but you 've got the latency shorter now . phd a: latency is short is yeah . professor b: yeah . phd f: is n't it phd a: and so professor b: so it 's better than the system that we had before . phd a: yeah . mainly because of the sixty - four hertz and the good vad . professor b: ok . phd a: and then i took this system and , mmm , w uh , i p we put the old filters also . so we have this good system , with good vad , with the short filter and with the long filter , and , um , with the short filter it 's not worse . so well , is it professor b: ok . phd a: it 's in professor b: so that 's that 's all fine . phd a: yes . uh professor b: but what you 're saying is that when you do these so let me try to understand . when when you do these same improvements to proposal - one , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: that , uh , on the i things are somewhat better , uh , in proposal - two for the well - matched case and somewhat worse for the other two cases . phd a: yeah . professor b: so does , uh when you say , uh so the th now that these other things are in there , is it the case maybe that the additions of proposal - two over proposal - one are less im important ? phd a: yeah . probably , yeah . professor b: i get it . phd a: um so , yeah . uh . yeah , but it 's a good thing anyway to have shorter delay . then we tried , um , to do something like proposal - two but having , um , e using also msg features . so there is this klt part , which use just the standard features , professor b: mm - hmm . right . phd a: and then two neura two neural networks . professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: mmm , and it does n't seem to help . um , however , we just have one result , which is the italian mismatch , so . uh . we have to wait for that to fill the whole table , but professor b: ok . there was a start of some effort on something related to voicing or something . is that ? phd a: yeah . um , yeah . so basically we try to , uh , find good features that could be used for voicing detection , uh , but it 's still , uh on the , um t phd f: oh , well , i have the picture . phd a: we w basically we are still playing with matlab to to look at at what happened , phd c: what sorts of phd f: yeah . phd a: and phd c: what sorts of features are you looking at ? phd f: we have some phd a: so we would be looking at , um , the variance of the spectrum of the excitation , phd f: uh , um , this , this , and this . phd a: something like this , which is should be high for voiced sounds . uh , we phd c: wait a minute . i what does that mean ? the variance of the spectrum of excitation . phd a: yeah . so the so basically the spectrum of the excitation for a purely periodic sig signal shou sh professor b: ok . yeah , w what yo what you 're calling the excitation , as i recall , is you 're subtracting the the , um the mel mel mel filter , uh , spectrum from the fft spectrum . phd a: e that 's right . yeah . so professor b: right . phd a: yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: so we have the mel f filter bank , we have the fft , so we just professor b: so it 's it 's not really an excitation , phd a: no . professor b: but it 's something that hopefully tells you something about the excitation . phd a: yeah , that 's right . professor b: yeah , yeah . phd a: um yeah . phd f: we have here some histogram , phd a: e yeah , phd f: but they have a lot of overlap . phd a: but it 's it 's still yeah . so , well , for unvoiced portion we have something tha that has a mean around o point three , and for voiced portion the mean is o point fifty - nine . but the variance seem quite high . phd c: how do you know ? phd a: so mmm . phd c: how did you get your voiced and unvoiced truth data ? phd a: we used , uh , timit and we used canonical mappings between the phones phd f: yeah . we , uh , use timit on this , phd a: and phd f: for phd a: th yeah . phd f: but if we look at it in one sentence , it apparently it 's good , i think . phd a: yeah , but yeah . uh , so it 's noisy timit . that 's right . yeah . grad e: it 's noisy timit . phd f: yeah . phd a: it seems quite robust to noise , so when we take we draw its parameters across time for a clean sentence and then nois the same noisy sentence , it 's very close . professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . so there are there is this . there could be also the , um something like the maximum of the auto - correlation function or which phd c: is this a a s a trained system ? or is it a system where you just pick some thresholds ? ho - how does it work ? phd a: right now we just are trying to find some features . and , phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: uh yeah . hopefully , i think what we want to have is to put these features in s some kind of , um well , to to obtain a statistical model on these features and to or just to use a neural network and hopefully these features w would help phd c: because it seems like what you said about the mean of the the voiced and the unvoiced { comment } that seemed pretty encouraging . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: well , yeah , except the variance was big . phd c: right ? phd a: yeah . except the variance is quite high . professor b: right ? phd c: well , y phd a: yeah . phd c: well , y i i do n't know that i would trust that so much because you 're doing these canonical mappings from timit labellings . phd a: uh - huh . phd c: right ? so , really that 's sort of a cartoon picture about what 's voiced and unvoiced . so that could be giving you a lot of variance . phd a: yeah . phd c: i mean , i it it may be that that you 're finding something good and that the variance is sort of artificial because of how you 're getting your truth . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . but another way of looking at it might be that i mean , what w we we are coming up with feature sets after all . so another way of looking at it is that um , the mel cepstru mel spectrum , mel cepstrum , any of these variants , um , give you the smooth spectrum . it 's the spectral envelope . by going back to the fft , you 're getting something that is more like the raw data . so the question is , what characterization and you 're playing around with this another way of looking at it is what characterization of the difference between the raw data and this smooth version is something that you 're missing that could help ? so , i mean , looking at different statistical measures of that difference , coming up with some things and just trying them out and seeing if you add them onto the feature vector does that make things better or worse in noise , where you 're really just i i the way i 'm looking at it is not so much you 're trying to f find the best the world 's best voiced - unvoiced , uh , uh , classifier , phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: mmm . professor b: but it 's more that , you know , uh , uh , try some different statistical characterizations of that difference back to the raw data phd c: right . professor b: and and m maybe there 's something there that the system can use . phd c: right . phd a: yeah . yeah , but ther more obvious is that yeah . the the more obvious is that that well , using the th the fft , um , you just it gives you just information about if it 's voiced or not voiced , ma mainly , i mean . but so , professor b: yeah . phd a: this is why we we started to look by having sort of voiced phonemes professor b: well , that 's the rea w w what i 'm arguing is that 's yeah . i mean , uh , what i 'm arguing is that that that 's givi you gives you your intuition . phd a: and mm - hmm . professor b: but in in reality , it 's you know , there 's all of this this overlap and so forth , grad e: oh , sorry . professor b: and but what i 'm saying is that may be ok , because what you 're really getting is not actually voiced versus unvoiced , both for the fac the reason of the overlap and and then , uh , th you know , structural reasons , uh , uh , like the one that chuck said , that that in fact , well , the data itself is that you 're working with is not perfect . phd a: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: so , what i 'm saying is maybe that 's not a killer because you 're just getting some characterization , one that 's driven by your intuition about voiced - unvoiced certainly , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: but it 's just some characterization of something back in the in the in the almost raw data , rather than the smooth version . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and your intuition is driving you towards particular kinds of , uh , statistical characterizations of , um , what 's missing from the spectral envelope . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: um , obviously you have something about the excitation , um , and what is it about the excitation , and , you know and you 're not getting the excitation anyway , you know . so so i i would almost take a uh , especially if if these trainings and so forth are faster , i would almost just take a uh , a scattershot at a few different ways of look of characterizing that difference and , uh , you could have one of them but and and see , you know , which of them helps . phd a: mm - hmm . ok . phd c: so i is the idea that you 're going to take whatever features you develop and and just add them onto the future vector ? or , what 's the use of the the voiced - unvoiced detector ? phd a: uh , i guess we do n't know exactly yet . but , um yeah . th phd c: it 's not part of a vad system that you 're doing ? phd f: no . phd a: uh , no . no . phd c: oh , ok . phd a: no , the idea was , i guess , to to use them as as features . phd c: features . i see . phd a: uh yeah , it could be , uh it could be a neural network that does voiced and unvoiced detection , phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: but it could be in the also the big neural network that does phoneme classification . phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: mmm . yeah . professor b: but each one of the mixture components i mean , you have , uh , uh , variance only , so it 's kind of like you 're just multiplying together these , um , probabilities from the individual features within each mixture . so it 's so , uh , it seems l you know phd c: i think it 's a neat thing . uh , it seems like a good idea . professor b: yeah . um . yeah . i mean , i know that , um , people doing some robustness things a ways back were were just doing just being gross and just throwing in the fft and actually it was n't was n't was n't so bad . uh , so it would s and and you know that i it 's got ta hurt you a little bit to not have a a spectral , uh a s a smooth spectral envelope , so there must be something else that you get in return for that phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: that , uh uh so . phd c: so how does uh , maybe i 'm going in too much detail , but how exactly do you make the difference between the fft and the smoothed spectral envelope ? wha - wh i i uh , how is that , uh ? phd a: um , we just how did we do it up again ? phd f: uh , we distend the we have the twenty - three coefficient af after the mel f filter , phd a: mm - hmm . phd f: and we extend these coefficient between the all the frequency range . phd c: mm - hmm . phd f: and i the interpolation i between the point is give for the triang triangular filter , the value of the triangular filter and of this way we obtained this mode this model speech . phd a: s professor b: so you essentially take the values that th that you get from the triangular filter and extend them to sor sort of like a rectangle , that 's at that m value . phd f: yeah . phd a: yeah . i think we have linear interpolation . phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: so we have we have one point for one energy for each filter bank , phd f: mmm yeah , it 's linear . phd c: mmm . professor b: oh . phd a: which is the energy that 's centered on on on the triangle phd f: yeah . at the n at the center of the filter phd c: so you you end up with a vector that 's the same length as the fft vector ? phd a: yeah . that 's right . phd f: yeah . phd c: and then you just , uh , compute differences phd f: yeah . i have here one example if you if you want see something like that . phd a: then we compute the difference . phd c: and , phd a: yeah . uh - huh . professor b: ok . phd c: uh , sum the differences ? phd a: so . and i think the variance is computed only from , like , two hundred hertz to one to fifteen hundred . phd c: oh ! ok . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: two thou two { comment } fifteen hundred ? professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: because phd f: no . professor b: right . phd f: two hundred and fifty thousand . phd a: fifteen hundred . because yeah . phd f: yeah . two thousand and fifteen hundred . phd a: above , um it seems that well , some voiced sound can have also , like , a noisy part on high frequencies , and but professor b: yeah . phd a: well , it 's just professor b: no , it 's makes sense to look at low frequencies . phd c: so this is uh , basically this is comparing an original version of the signal to a smoothed version of the same signal ? phd f: yeah . professor b: right . so i so i i this is i mean , i you could argue about whether it should be linear interpolation or or or or zeroeth order , but but phd c: uh - huh . professor b: at any rate something like this is what you 're feeding your recognizer , typically . phd c: like which of the ? professor b: no . uh , so the mel cepstrum is the is the is the cepstrum of this this , uh , spectrum or log spectrum , phd a: so this is yeah . phd c: yeah . right , right . professor b: whatever it you - you 're subtracting in in in power domain or log domain ? phd a: in log domain . yeah . phd f: log domain . professor b: ok . so it 's sort of like division , when you do the yeah , the spectra . phd f: yeah . phd a: uh , yeah . phd c: it 's the ratio . professor b: um . yeah . but , anyway , um and that 's phd c: so what 's th uh , what 's the intuition behind this kind of a thing ? i i do n't know really know the signal - processing well enough to understand what what is that doing . phd a: so . yeah . what happen if what we have have what we would like to have is some spectrum of the excitation signal , professor b: yeah . i guess that makes sense . yeah . phd a: which is for voiced sound ideally a a pulse train phd c: uh - huh . phd a: and for unvoiced it 's something that 's more flat . phd c: uh - huh . right . phd a: and the way to do this is that well , we have the we have the fft because it 's computed in in the in the system , and we have the mel filter banks , phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: and so if we if we , like , remove the mel filter bank from the fft , we have something that 's close to the excitation signal . grad e: oh . phd a: it 's something that 's like a a a train of p a pulse train for voiced sound phd c: ok . professor b: yeah . phd c: oh ! ok . yeah . phd a: and that 's that should be flat for professor b: yeah . phd c: i see . so do you have a picture that sh ? phd a: so - it 's y phd c: is this for a voiced segment , phd a: yeah . phd c: this picture ? what does it look like for unvoiced ? phd f: yeah . phd a: you have several some unvoiced ? phd f: the dif no . unvoiced , i do n't have phd a: oh . phd f: for unvoiced . professor b: yeah . so , you know , all phd f: i 'm sorry . phd a: but yeah . professor b: yeah . phd f: yeah . this is the between phd a: this is another voiced example . yeah . phd f: no . but it 's this , phd a: oh , yeah . this is phd f: but between the frequency that we are considered for the excitation phd a: right . mm - hmm . phd f: for the difference and this is the difference . phd a: yeah . phd c: this is the difference . ok . phd a: so , of course , it 's around zero , professor b: yeah . grad e: sure looks phd a: but grad e: hmm . phd a: well , no . phd c: hmm . phd a: it is phd f: yeah . because we begin , uh , in fifteen point the fifteen point . phd c: so , does does the periodicity of this signal say something about the the phd f: fifteen p phd a: so it 's yeah . professor b: pitch . phd a: it 's the pitch . phd c: the pitch ? phd a: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . phd c: ok . professor b: that 's like fundamental frequency . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: so , i mean , i t t phd c: ok . i see . professor b: i mean , to first order what you 'd what you 're doing i mean , ignore all the details and all the ways which is that these are complete lies . uh , the the you know , what you 're doing in feature extraction for speech recognition is you have , uh , in your head a a a a simplified production model for speech , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: in which you have a periodic or aperiodic source that 's driving some filters . phd c: mm - hmm . phd f: yeah . this is the the auto - correlation the r - zero energy . phd a: do you have the mean do you have the mean for the auto - correlation ? professor b: uh , first order for speech recognition , you say `` i do n't care about the source `` . phd f: for yeah . phd a: well , i mean for the the energy . phd f: i have the mean . professor b: right ? phd c: right . professor b: and so you just want to find out what the filters are . phd c: right . phd f: yeah . professor b: the filters roughly act like a , um a , uh a an overall resonant you know , f some resonances and so forth that th that 's processing excitation . phd f: here . phd a: they should be more close . phd f: ah , no . this is this ? more close . is this ? and this . phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: so they are this is there is less difference . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so if you look at the spectral envelope , just the very smooth properties of it , you get something closer to that . phd a: this is less it 's less robust . phd f: less robust . yeah . phd a: oh , yeah . professor b: and the notion is if you have the full spectrum , with all the little nitty - gritty details , that that has the effect of both , phd c: yeah . professor b: and it would be a multiplication in in frequency domain phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so that would be like an addition in log power spectrum domain . phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: and so this is saying , well , if you really do have that sort of vocal tract envelope , and you subtract that off , what you get is the excitation . and i call that lies because you do n't really have that , you just have some kind of signal - processing trickery to get something that 's kind of smooth . it 's not really what 's happening in the vocal tract phd c: yeah . professor b: so you 're not really getting the vocal excitation . phd c: right . professor b: that 's why i was going to the why i was referring to it in a more a more , uh , uh , conservative way , when i was saying `` well , it 's yeah , it 's the excitation `` . but it 's not really the excitation . it 's whatever it is that 's different between phd c: oh . this moved in the professor b: so so , stand standing back from that , you sort of say there 's this very detailed representation . phd c: yeah . professor b: you go to a smooth representation . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: you go to a smooth representation cuz this typically generalizes better . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: um , but whenever you smooth you lose something , so the question is have you lost something you can you use ? phd c: right . professor b: um , probably you would n't want to go to the extreme of just ta saying `` ok , our feature set will be the fft `` , cuz we really think we do gain something in robustness from going to something smoother , but maybe there 's something that we missed . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so what is it ? phd c: yeah . professor b: and then you go back to the intuition that , well , you do n't really get the excitation , but you get something related to it . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: and it and as you can see from those pictures , you do get something that shows some periodicity , uh , in frequency , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: you know , and and and also in time . phd c: hmm . professor b: so phd c: that 's that 's really neat . professor b: so , phd c: so you do n't have one for unvoiced picture ? phd f: uh , not here . phd c: oh . phd f: no , i have s phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . phd f: but not here . professor b: but presumably you 'll see something that wo n't have this kind of , uh , uh , uh , regularity in frequency , uh , in the phd a: but yeah . well . phd f: not here . phd c: i would li i would like to see those pictures . phd f: well , so . professor b: yeah . phd f: i ca n't see you { comment } now . professor b: yeah . phd c: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . phd f: i do n't have . phd c: and so you said this is pretty doing this kind of thing is pretty robust to noise ? phd a: it seems , yeah . um , phd c: huh . phd f: pfft . oops . the mean is different with it , because the the histogram for the the classifica phd a: no , no , no . but th the kind of robustness to noise phd f: oh ! phd a: so if if you take this frame , uh , from the noisy utterance and the same frame from the clean utterance phd f: hmm . phd c: you end up with a similar difference phd a: y y y yeah . we end up with phd c: over here ? phd a: yeah . phd c: ok . cool ! phd f: i have here the same frame for the clean speech phd c: oh , that 's clean . phd f: the same cle phd c: oh , ok phd f: but they are a difference . phd a: yeah , that 's phd f: because here the fft is only with two hundred fifty - six point phd c: oh . phd f: and this is with five hundred twelve . phd a: yeah . this is kind of inter interesting also phd c: ok . phd a: because if we use the standard , uh , frame length of of , like , twenty - five milliseconds , um , what happens is that for low - pitched voiced , because of the frame length , y you do n't really have you do n't clearly see this periodic structure , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: because of the first lobe of of each each of the harmonics . phd c: so this one inclu is a longer ah . phd a: so , this is like yeah , fifty milliseconds or something like that . phd f: fifty millis yeah . phd a: yeah , but it 's the same frame and phd c: oh , it 's that time - frequency trade - off thing . phd a: yeah . phd c: right ? i see . yeah . phd a: so , yeah . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: oh . oh , so this i is this the difference here , for that ? phd f: no . this is the signal . this is the signal . phd a: i see that . oh , yeah . phd f: the frame . phd c: oh , that 's the f the original . phd a: yeah . phd f: this is the fra the original frame . phd a: so with a short frame basically you have only two periods phd c: yeah . phd a: and it 's not not enough to to have this kind of neat things . phd c: mm - hmm . phd f: mm - hmm . phd c: yeah . phd a: but phd f: and here no , well . phd a: yeah . so probably we 'll have to use , like , long f long frames . mm - hmm . phd c: mm - hmm . grad e: hmm . phd c: oh . professor b: mmm . phd c: that 's interesting . professor b: yeah , maybe . well , i mean it looks better , but , i mean , the thing is if if , uh if you 're actually asking you know , if you actually j uh , need to do place along an fft , it may be it may be pushing things . phd a: yeah . professor b: and and , uh phd c: would you would you wan na do this kind of , uh , difference thing after you do spectral subtraction ? phd a: uh , maybe . phd f: no . maybe we can do that . phd a: mmm . professor b: hmm . the spectral subtraction is being done at what level ? is it being done at the level of fft bins or at the level of , uh , mel spectrum or something ? phd a: um , i guess it depends . professor b: i mean , how are they doing it ? phd a: how they 're doing it ? yeah . um , i guess ericsson is on the , um , filter bank , phd f: fft . filter bank , phd a: no ? it 's on the filter bank , phd f: yeah . phd a: so . so , yeah , probably i i it yeah . professor b: so in that case , it might not make much difference at all . phd c: seems like you 'd wan na do it on the fft bins . professor b: maybe . i mean , certainly it 'd be better . phd c: i i mean , if you were gon na uh , for for this purpose , that is . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . ok . phd a: mmm . professor b: what else ? phd a: uh . yeah , that 's all . so we 'll perhaps try to convince ogi people to use the new the new filters and yeah . professor b: ok . uh , has has anything happened yet on this business of having some sort of standard , uh , source , phd a: uh , not yet professor b: or ? phd a: but i wi i will call them and professor b: ok . phd a: now they are i think they have more time because they have this well , eurospeech deadline is over phd c: when is the next , um , aurora deadline ? phd a: and it 's , um , in june . yeah . phd c: june . professor b: early june , late june , middle june ? phd a: i do n't know w professor b: hmm . grad e: hmm . professor b: ok . um , and he 's been doing all the talking but but these he 's he 's , uh phd f: yeah . professor b: this is this by the way a bad thing . we 're trying to get , um , m more female voices in this record as well . so . make sur make sure carmen talks as well . uh , but has he pretty much been talking about what you 're doing also , and ? phd f: oh , i i am doing this . professor b: yes . phd f: yeah , yeah . i do n't know . i 'm sorry , but i think that for the recognizer for the meeting recorder that it 's better that i do n't speak . professor b: yeah , well . phd f: because professor b: you know , uh , we 'll get we 'll get to , uh , spanish voices sometime , and we do we want to recognize , uh , you too . phd f: after the after , uh , the result for the ti - digits on the meeting record there will be foreigns people . phd a: yeah , but professor b: oh , no . phd c: y professor b: we like we we 're we 're w we are we 're in the , uh , bourlard - hermansky - morgan , uh , frame of mind . yeah , we like high error rates . it 's phd a: yeah . professor b: that way there 's lots of work to do . so it 's uh , anything to talk about ? grad d: n um , not not not much is new . so when i talked about what i 'm planning to do last time , i said i was , um , going to use avendano 's method of , um , using a transformation , um , to map from long analysis frames which are used for removing reverberation to short analysis frames for feature calculation . he has a trick for doing that involving viewing the dft as a matrix . um , but , uh , um , i decided not to do that after all because i i realized to use it i 'd need to have these short analysis frames get plugged directly into the feature computation somehow professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: and right now i think our feature computation is set to up to , um , take , um , audio as input , in general . so i decided that i i 'll do the reverberation removal on the long analysis windows and then just re - synthesize audio and then send that . professor b: this is in order to use the sri system or something . right ? grad d: um , or or even if i 'm using our system , i was thinking it might be easier to just re - synthesize the audio , professor b: yeah ? grad d: because then i could just feacalc as is and i would n't have to change the code . professor b: oh , ok . yeah . i mean , it 's um , certainly in a short short - term this just sounds easier . grad d: uh - huh . professor b: yeah . i mean , longer - term if it 's if it turns out to be useful , one one might want to do something else , grad d: right . that 's true . professor b: but uh , uh , i mean , in in other words , you you may be putting other kinds of errors in from the re - synthesis process . grad d: but e u from the re - synthesis ? um , professor b: yeah . grad d: o - ok . i do n't know anything about re - synthesis . uh , how likely do you think that is ? professor b: uh , it depends what you what you do . i mean , it 's it 's it 's , uh , um do n't know . but anyway it sounds like a reasonable way to go for a for an initial thing , and we can look at at exactly what you end up doing and and then figure out if there 's some something that could be be hurt by the end part of the process . grad d: ok . professor b: ok . so that 's that was it , huh ? grad d: that yeah , e that 's it , that 's it . professor b: ok . ok . grad d: uh - huh . professor b: um , anything to add ? grad e: um . well , i 've been continuing reading . i went off on a little tangent this past week , um , looking at , uh , uh , modulation s spectrum stuff , um , and and learning a bit about what what , um what it is , and , uh , the importance of it in speech recognition . and i found some some , uh , neat papers , um , historical papers from , um , kanedera , hermansky , and arai . professor b: yeah . grad e: and they they did a lot of experiments where th where , um , they take speech and , um , e they modify the , uh they they they measure the relative importance of having different , um , portions of the modulation spectrum intact . professor b: yeah . grad e: and they find that the the spectrum between one and sixteen hertz in the modulation is , uh is im important for speech recognition . professor b: sure . i mean , this sort of goes back to earlier stuff by drullman . grad e: um . professor b: and and , uh , the the msg features were sort of built up with this notion grad e: yeah . right . professor b: but , i guess , i thought you had brought this up in the context of , um , targets somehow . grad e: right . professor b: but i m grad e: um professor b: i it 's not i mean , they 're sort of not in the same kind of category as , say , a phonetic target or a syllabic target grad e: mmm . mm - hmm . professor b: or a grad e: um , i was thinking more like using them as as the inputs to to the detectors . professor b: or a feature or something . oh , i see . well , that 's sort of what msg does . grad e: yeah . yeah . professor b: right ? so it 's grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: but but , uh grad e: s professor b: yeah . grad e: yeah . professor b: anyway , we 'll talk more about it later . grad e: ok . professor b: yeah . grad e: we can talk more about it later . professor b: yeah . yeah . grad e: yeah . professor b: so maybe , le phd c: should we do digits ? professor b: let 's do digits . let you you start . grad d: oh , ok . grad e: l fifty . phd a: right .

the professor thought that the model was better now since it had lower latencies . so , he thought that the good vad was worth the trouble .

what did phd a think about vad ? </s> phd a: it 's not very significant . professor b: uh , channel one . yes . grad d: channel three . professor b: ok . phd f: mm - hmm . grad d: channel three . phd a: ta grad d: channel three . alright . professor b: ok , did you solve speech recognition last week ? grad e: almost . professor b: alright ! let 's do image processing . phd c: yes , again . phd a: great . phd c: we did it again , morgan . professor b: alright ! grad e: doo - doop , doo - doo . phd a: what 's wrong with ? professor b: ok . it 's april fifth . actually , hynek should be getting back in town shortly if he is n't already . phd c: is he gon na come here ? professor b: uh . well , we 'll drag him here . i know where he is . phd c: so when you said `` in town `` , you mean oregon . professor b: u u u u uh , i meant , you know , this end of the world , yeah , is really what i meant , phd c: oh . grad e: doo , doo - doo . professor b: uh , cuz he 's been in europe . grad e: doo - doo . professor b: so . phd c: i have something just fairly brief to report on . professor b: mmm . phd c: um , i did some experim uh , uh , just a few more experiments before i had to , uh , go away for the w well , that week . professor b: great ! phd c: was it last week or whenever ? um , so what i was started playing with was the th again , this is the htk back - end . and , um , i was curious because the way that they train up the models , they go through about four sort of rounds of of training . and in the first round they do uh , i think it 's three iterations , and for the last three rounds e e they do seven iterations of re - estimation in each of those three . and so , you know , that 's part of what takes so long to train the the the back - end for this . professor b: i 'm sorry , i did n't quite get that . there 's there 's four and there 's seven and i i 'm sorry . phd c: yeah . uh , maybe i should write it on the board . so , there 's four rounds of training . um , i g i g i guess you could say iterations . the first one is three , then seven , seven , and seven . and what these numbers refer to is the number of times that the , uh , hmm re - estimation is run . it 's this program called h e professor b: but in htk , what 's the difference between , uh , a an inner loop and an outer loop in these iterations ? phd c: ok . so what happens is , um , at each one of these points , you increase the number of gaussians in the model . professor b: yeah . oh , right ! this was the mix up stuff . phd c: yeah . the mix up . professor b: that 's right . phd c: right . professor b: i remember now . phd c: and so , in the final one here , you end up with , uh for all of the the digit words , you end up with , uh , three mixtures per state , professor b: yeah . phd c: eh , in the final thing . so i had done some experiments where i was i i want to play with the number of mixtures . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: but , um , uh , i wanted to first test to see if we actually need to do this many iterations early on . grad e: uh , one , two , professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: and so , um , i i ran a couple of experiments where i reduced that to l to be three , two , two , uh , five , i think , and i got almost the exact same results . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: and but it runs much much faster . so , um , i i think m it only took something like , uh , three or four hours to do the full training , professor b: as opposed to ? phd f: good . phd c: as opposed to wh what , sixteen hours or something like that ? i mean , it takes you have to do an overnight basically , the way it is set up now . phd f: yeah . it depends . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: so , uh , even we do n't do anything else , doing something like this could allow us to turn experiments around a lot faster . professor b: and then when you have your final thing , do a full one , so it 's phd c: and when you have your final thing , we go back to this . phd f: yeah . phd c: so , um , and it 's a real simple change to make . i mean , it 's like one little text file you edit and change those numbers , and you do n't do anything else . phd f: oh , this is a phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: and then you just run . phd f: ok . phd c: so it 's a very simple change to make and it does n't seem to hurt all that much . phd a: so you you run with three , two , two , five ? that 's a phd c: so i uh , i i have to look to see what the exact numbers were . phd a: yeah . phd c: i i thought was , like , three , two , two , five , phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: but i i 'll i 'll double check . it was over a week ago that i did it , phd a: ok . mm - hmm . phd c: so i ca n't remember exactly . grad e: oh . phd c: but , uh professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: um , but it 's so much faster . i it makes a big difference . grad e: hmm . phd c: so we could do a lot more experiments and throw a lot more stuff in there . phd f: yeah . professor b: that 's great . phd c: um . oh , the other thing that i did was , um , i compiled the htk stuff for the linux boxes . so we have this big thing that we got from ibm , which is a five - processor machine . really fast , but it 's running linux . so , you can now run your experiments on that machine and you can run five at a time and it runs , uh , as fast as , you know , uh , five different machines . phd a: mm - hmm . phd f: mm - hmm . phd c: so , um , i 've forgotten now what the name of that machine is but i can i can send email around about it . phd a: yeah . phd c: and so we 've got it now htk 's compiled for both the linux and for , um , the sparcs . um , you have to make you have to make sure that in your dot cshrc , um , it detects whether you 're running on the linux or a a sparc and points to the right executables . uh , and you may not have had that in your dot cshrc before , if you were always just running the sparc . so , um , phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: uh , i can i can tell you exactly what you need to do to get all of that to work . but it 'll it really increases what we can run on . grad e: hmm . cool . phd c: so , together with the fact that we 've got these faster linux boxes and that it takes less time to do these , um , we should be able to crank through a lot more experiments . phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: so . grad e: hmm . phd c: so after i did that , then what i wanted to do { comment } was try increasing the number of mixtures , just to see , um see how how that affects performance . phd a: yeah . phd c: so . professor b: yeah . in fact , you could do something like keep exactly the same procedure and then add a fifth thing onto it phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: that had more . phd c: exactly . professor b: yeah . phd c: right . right . grad e: so at at the middle o where the arrows are showing , that 's you 're adding one more mixture per state , phd c: uh - huh . uh , grad e: or ? phd c: let 's see , uh . it goes from this uh , try to go it backwards this at this point it 's two mixtures per state . so this just adds one . except that , uh , actually for the silence model , it 's six mixtures per state . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: uh , so it goes to two . grad e: ok . phd c: um . and i think what happens here is professor b: might be between , uh , shared , uh shared variances or something , phd c: yeah . i think that 's what it is . professor b: or phd c: uh , yeah . it 's , uh shoot . i i i ca n't remember now what happens at that first one . uh , i have to look it up and see . grad e: oh , ok . phd c: um , there because they start off with , uh , an initial model which is just this global model , and then they split it to the individuals . and so , it may be that that 's what 's happening here . i i i have to look it up and see . i i do n't exactly remember . grad e: ok . professor b: ok . phd c: so . that 's it . professor b: alright . so what else ? phd a: um . yeah . there was a conference call this tuesday . um . i do n't know yet the what happened tuesday , but the points that they were supposed to discuss is still , uh , things like the weights , uh professor b: oh , this is a conference call for , uh , uh , aurora participant sort of thing . grad e: for phd a: yeah . yeah . professor b: i see . phd a: mmm . professor b: do you know who was who was since we were n't in on it , uh , do you know who was in from ogi ? was was was hynek involved or was it sunil phd a: i have no idea . professor b: or ? phd a: mmm , i just professor b: oh , you do n't know . ok . phd a: yeah . professor b: alright . phd a: um , yeah . so the points were the the weights how to weight the different error rates that are obtained from different language and and conditions . um , it 's not clear that they will keep the same kind of weighting . right now it 's a weighting on on improvement . professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: some people are arguing that it would be better to have weights on uh well , to to combine error rates before computing improvement . uh , and the fact is that for right now for the english , they have weights they they combine error rates , but for the other languages they combine improvement . so it 's not very consistent . um professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . the , um yeah . and so well , this is a point . and right now actually there is a thing also , uh , that happens with the current weight is that a very non - significant improvement on the well - matched case result in huge differences in in the final number . professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: and so , perhaps they will change the weights to phd c: hmm . phd a: yeah . phd c: how should that be done ? i mean , it it seems like there 's a simple way phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: uh , this seems like an obvious mistake or something . professor b: well , i mean , the fact that it 's inconsistent is an obvious mistake . phd c: th - they 're professor b: but the but , um , the other thing phd a: in professor b: i do n't know i have n't thought it through , but one one would think that each it it 's like if you say what 's the what 's the best way to do an average , an arithmetic average or a geometric average ? phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: it depends what you wan na show . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: each each one is gon na have a different characteristic . phd a: yeah . professor b: so phd c: well , it seems like they should do , like , the percentage improvement or something , rather than the absolute improvement . phd a: tha - that 's what they do . professor b: well , they are doing that . phd a: yeah . professor b: no , that is relative . but the question is , do you average the relative improvements or do you average the error rates and take the relative improvement maybe of that ? phd a: yeah . yeah . professor b: and the thing is it 's not just a pure average because there are these weightings . phd c: oh . professor b: it 's a weighted average . um . phd a: yeah . and so when you average the the relative improvement it tends to to give a lot of of , um , importance to the well - matched case because the baseline is already very good and , um , i it 's phd c: why do n't they not look at improvements but just look at your av your scores ? you know , figure out how to combine the scores phd a: mm - hmm . phd c: with a weight or whatever , and then give you a score here 's your score . and then they can do the same thing for the baseline system and here 's its score . and then you can look at phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: well , that 's what he 's seeing as one of the things they could do . phd a: yeah . professor b: it 's just when you when you get all done , i think that they pro i m i i was n't there but i think they started off this process with the notion that you should be significantly better than the previous standard . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: and , um , so they said `` how much is significantly better ? what do you ? `` and and so they said `` well , you know , you should have half the errors , `` or something , `` that you had before `` . phd a: mm - hmm . hmm . phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . professor b: so it 's , uh , but it does seem like phd c: hmm . professor b: i i it does seem like it 's more logical to combine them first and then do the phd a: combine error rates and then professor b: yeah . phd a: yeah . well professor b: yeah . phd a: but there is this this is this still this problem of weights . when when you combine error rate it tends to give more importance to the difficult cases , and some people think that professor b: oh , yeah ? phd a: well , they have different , um , opinions about this . some people think that it 's more important to look at to have ten percent imp relative improvement on well - matched case than to have fifty percent on the m mismatched , and other people think that it 's more important to improve a lot on the mismatch and so , bu phd c: it sounds like they do n't really have a good idea about what the final application is gon na be . phd a: l de fff ! mmm . professor b: well , you know , the the thing is that if you look at the numbers on the on the more difficult cases , um , if you really believe that was gon na be the predominant use , none of this would be good enough . phd a: yeah . mmm . yeah . professor b: nothing anybody 's phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: whereas you sort of with some reasonable error recovery could imagine in the better cases that these these systems working . so , um , i think the hope would be that it would uh , it would work well for the good cases and , uh , it would have reasonable reas soft degradation as you got to worse and worse conditions . um . phd c: yeah . i i guess what i 'm i mean , i i was thinking about it in terms of , if i were building the final product and i was gon na test to see which front - end i 'd i wanted to use , i would try to weight things depending on the exact environment that i was gon na be using the system in . professor b: but but no . phd c: if i professor b: well , no well , no . i mean , it is n't the operating theater . i mean , they don they they do n't they do n't really know , i think . phd c: yeah . professor b: i mean , i th phd c: so if if they do n't know , does n't that suggest the way for them to go ? uh , you assume everything 's equal . i mean , y y i mean , you professor b: well , i mean , i i think one thing to do is to just not rely on a single number to maybe have two or three numbers , phd c: yeah . professor b: you know , phd c: right . professor b: and and and say here 's how much you , uh you improve the , uh the the relatively clean case and here 's or or well - matched case , and here 's how here 's how much you , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: uh phd c: so not professor b: so . phd c: so not try to combine them . professor b: yeah . uh , actually it 's true . phd c: yeah . professor b: uh , i had forgotten this , uh , but , uh , well - matched is not actually clean . what it is is just that , u uh , the training and testing are similar . phd c: the training and testing . phd a: mmm . professor b: so , i guess what you would do in practice is you 'd try to get as many , uh , examples of similar sort of stuff as you could , and then , phd c: yeah . professor b: uh so the argument for that being the the the more important thing , is that you 're gon na try and do that , but you wan na see how badly it deviates from that when when when the , uh it 's a little different . phd c: so professor b: um , phd c: so you should weight those other conditions v very you know , really small . professor b: but no . that 's a that 's a that 's an arg phd c: i mean , that 's more of an information kind of thing . professor b: that 's an ar well , that 's an argument for it , but let me give you the opposite argument . the opposite argument is you 're never really gon na have a good sample of all these different things . phd c: uh - huh . professor b: i mean , are you gon na have w uh , uh , examples with the windows open , half open , full open ? going seventy , sixty , fifty , forty miles an hour ? on what kind of roads ? phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: with what passing you ? with uh , i mean , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: i i i think that you could make the opposite argument that the well - matched case is a fantasy . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: you know , so , grad e: uh - huh . professor b: i think the thing is is that if you look at the well - matched case versus the po you know , the the medium and the and the fo and then the mismatched case , um , we 're seeing really , really big differences in performance . right ? and and y you would n't like that to be the case . you would n't like that as soon as you step outside you know , a lot of the the cases it 's is phd c: well , that 'll teach them to roll their window up . professor b: i mean , in these cases , if you go from the the , uh i mean , i do n't remember the numbers right off , but if you if you go from the well - matched case to the medium , it 's not an enormous difference in the in the the training - testing situation , and and and it 's a really big performance drop . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: you know , so , um yeah , i mean the reference one , for instance this is back old on , uh on italian uh , was like six percent error for the well - matched and eighteen for the medium - matched and sixty for the for highly - mismatched . uh , and , you know , with these other systems we we helped it out quite a bit , but still there 's there 's something like a factor of two or something between well - matched and medium - matched . and so i think that if what you 're if the goal of this is to come up with robust features , it does mean so you could argue , in fact , that the well - matched is something you should n't be looking at at all , that that the goal is to come up with features that will still give you reasonable performance , you know , with again gentle degregra degradation , um , even though the the testing condition is not the same as the training . phd c: hmm . professor b: so , you know , i i could argue strongly that something like the medium mismatch , which is you know not compl pathological but i mean , what was the the medium - mismatch condition again ? phd a: um , it 's yeah . medium mismatch is everything with the far microphone , but trained on , like , low noisy condition , like low speed and or stopped car and tested on high - speed conditions , i think , like on a highway and professor b: right . phd a: so professor b: so it 's still the same same microphone in both cases , phd a: same microphone but yeah . professor b: but , uh , it 's there 's a mismatch between the car conditions . and that 's uh , you could argue that 's a pretty realistic situation phd c: yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh , i 'd almost argue for weighting that highest . but the way they have it now , it 's i guess it 's it 's they they compute the relative improvement first and then average that with a weighting ? phd a: yeah . professor b: and so then the that that makes the highly - matched the really big thing . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: um , so , u i since they have these three categories , it seems like the reasonable thing to do is to go across the languages and to come up with an improvement for each of those . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: just say `` ok , in the in the highly - matched case this is what happens , in the m the , uh this other m medium if this happens , in the highly - mismatched that happens `` . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh , you should see , uh , a gentle degradation through that . phd a: mmm . professor b: um . but i do n't know . phd a: yeah . professor b: i think that that i i i gather that in these meetings it 's it 's really tricky to make anything ac make any { comment } policy change because everybody has has , uh , their own opinion phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and i do n't know . phd a: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd a: uh , so yeah . yeah , but there is probably a a big change that will be made is that the the baseline th they want to have a new baseline , perhaps , which is , um , mfcc but with a voice activity detector . and apparently , uh , some people are pushing to still keep this fifty percent number . so they want to have at least fifty percent improvement on the baseline , but w which would be a much better baseline . professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: and if we look at the result that sunil sent , just putting the vad in the baseline improved , like , more than twenty percent , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: which would mean then then mean that fifty percent on this new baseline is like , well , more than sixty percent improvement on on o e e uh professor b: so nobody would be there , probably . right ? phd a: right now , nobody would be there , but yeah . professor b: good . work to do . phd a: uh - huh . professor b: so whose vad is is is this a ? phd a: uh , they did n't decide yet . i guess i this was one point of the conference call also , but mmm , so i do n't know . um , but yeah . grad e: oh . professor b: oh , i i think th that would be good . i mean , it 's not that the design of the vad is n't important , but it 's just that it it it does seem to be i uh , a lot of work to do a good job on on that and as well as being a lot of work to do a good job on the feature design , phd a: yeah . professor b: so phd a: yeah . professor b: if we can cut down on that maybe we can make some progress . phd a: m yeah . grad e: hmm . phd a: but i guess perhaps i do n't know w yeah . uh , yeah . per - e s s someone told that perhaps it 's not fair to do that because the , um to make a good vad you do n't have enough to with the the features that are the baseline features . so mmm , you need more features . so you really need to put more more in the in in the front - end . professor b: yeah . phd a: so i professor b: um , phd a: s professor b: sure . but i bu phd c: wait a minute . i i 'm confused . phd a: yeah . phd c: wha - what do you mean ? phd a: yeah , if i professor b: so y so you m s yeah , but well , let 's say for ins see , mfcc for instance does n't have anything in it , uh , related to the pitch . so just just for example . so suppose you 've that what you really wan na do is put a good pitch detector on there and if it gets an unambiguous phd c: oh , oh . i see . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: if it gets an unambiguous result then you 're definitely in a in a in a voice in a , uh , s region with speech . uh . phd c: so there 's this assumption that the v the voice activity detector can only use the mfcc ? phd a: that 's not clear , but this e professor b: well , for the baseline . phd c: yeah . professor b: so so if you use other features then y but it 's just a question of what is your baseline . right ? what is it that you 're supposed to do better than ? phd c: i g yeah . professor b: and so having the baseline be the mfcc 's means that people could choose to pour their ener their effort into trying to do a really good vad phd c: i do n't s but they seem like two separate issues . professor b: or tryi they 're sort of separate . phd c: right ? i mean professor b: unfortunately there 's coupling between them , which is part of what i think stephane is getting to , is that you can choose your features in such a way as to improve the vad . phd a: yeah . professor b: and you also can choose your features in such a way as to prove improve recognition . they may not be the same thing . phd c: but it seems like you should do both . professor b: you should do both phd c: right ? professor b: and and i i think that this still makes i still think this makes sense as a baseline . it 's just saying , as a baseline , we know phd a: mmm . professor b: you know , we had the mfcc 's before , lots of people have done voice activity detectors , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: you might as well pick some voice activity detector and make that the baseline , just like you picked some version of htk and made that the baseline . phd a: yeah . right . professor b: and then let 's try and make everything better . um , and if one of the ways you make it better is by having your features be better features for the vad then that 's so be it . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: but , uh , uh , uh , at least you have a starting point that 's um , cuz i i some of the some of the people did n't have a vad at all , i guess . right ? and and phd a: yeah . professor b: then they they looked pretty bad and and in fact what they were doing was n't so bad at all . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: but , um . phd c: yeah . it seems like you should try to make your baseline as good as possible . and if it turns out that you ca n't improve on that , well , i mean , then , you know , nobody wins and you just use mfcc . right ? professor b: yeah . i mean , it seems like , uh , it should include sort of the current state of the art that you want are trying to improve , and mfcc 's , you know , or plp or something it seems like reasonable baseline for the features , and anybody doing this task , uh , is gon na have some sort of voice activity detection at some level , in some way . they might use the whole recognizer to do it but rather than a separate thing , but but they 'll have it on some level . so , um . phd c: it seems like whatever they choose they should n't , you know , purposefully brain - damage a part of the system to make a worse baseline , or professor b: well , i think people just had phd c: you know ? professor b: it was n't that they purposely brain - damaged it . i think people had n't really thought through about the , uh the vad issue . phd c: mmm . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and and then when the the the proposals actually came in and half of them had v a ds and half of them did n't , and the half that did did well and the half that did n't did poorly . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so it 's phd a: mm - hmm . um . professor b: uh . phd a: yeah . so we 'll see what happen with this . and yeah . so what happened since , um , last week is well , from ogi , these experiments on putting vad on the baseline . and these experiments also are using , uh , some kind of noise compensation , so spectral subtraction , and putting on - line normalization , um , just after this . so i think spectral subtraction , lda filtering , and on - line normalization , so which is similar to the pro proposal - one , but with spectral subtraction in addition , and it seems that on - line normalization does n't help further when you have spectral subtraction . phd c: is this related to the issue that you brought up a couple of meetings ago with the the musical tones phd a: i phd c: and ? phd a: i have no idea , because the issue i brought up was with a very simple spectral subtraction approach , phd c: mmm . phd a: and the one that they use at ogi is one from from the proposed the the the aurora prop uh , proposals , which might be much better . so , yeah . i asked sunil for more information about that , but , uh , i do n't know yet . um . and what 's happened here is that we so we have this kind of new , um , reference system which use a nice a a clean downsampling - upsampling , which use a new filter that 's much shorter and which also cuts the frequency below sixty - four hertz , professor b: right . phd a: which was not done on our first proposal . professor b: when you say `` we have that `` , does sunil have it now , too , phd a: i no . professor b: or ? phd a: no . professor b: ok . phd a: because we 're still testing . so we have the result for , uh , just the features professor b: ok . phd a: and we are currently testing with putting the neural network in the klt . um , it seems to improve on the well - matched case , um , but it 's a little bit worse on the mismatch and highly - mismatched i mean when we put the neural network . and with the current weighting i think it 's sh it will be better because the well - matched case is better . mmm . professor b: but how much worse since the weighting might change how how much worse is it on the other conditions , when you say it 's a little worse ? phd a: it 's like , uh , fff , fff { comment } um , { comment } ten percent relative . yeah . professor b: ok . um . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: but it has the , uh the latencies are much shorter . that 's phd a: uh - y w when i say it 's worse , it 's not it 's when i i uh , compare proposal - two to proposal - one , so , r uh , y putting neural network compared to n not having any neural network . i mean , this new system is is is better , professor b: uh - huh . phd a: because it has um , this sixty - four hertz cut - off , uh , clean downsampling , and , um what else ? uh , yeah , a good vad . we put the good vad . so . yeah , i do n't know . i i j uh , uh pr professor b: but the latencies but you 've got the latency shorter now . phd a: latency is short is yeah . professor b: yeah . phd f: is n't it phd a: and so professor b: so it 's better than the system that we had before . phd a: yeah . mainly because of the sixty - four hertz and the good vad . professor b: ok . phd a: and then i took this system and , mmm , w uh , i p we put the old filters also . so we have this good system , with good vad , with the short filter and with the long filter , and , um , with the short filter it 's not worse . so well , is it professor b: ok . phd a: it 's in professor b: so that 's that 's all fine . phd a: yes . uh professor b: but what you 're saying is that when you do these so let me try to understand . when when you do these same improvements to proposal - one , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: that , uh , on the i things are somewhat better , uh , in proposal - two for the well - matched case and somewhat worse for the other two cases . phd a: yeah . professor b: so does , uh when you say , uh so the th now that these other things are in there , is it the case maybe that the additions of proposal - two over proposal - one are less im important ? phd a: yeah . probably , yeah . professor b: i get it . phd a: um so , yeah . uh . yeah , but it 's a good thing anyway to have shorter delay . then we tried , um , to do something like proposal - two but having , um , e using also msg features . so there is this klt part , which use just the standard features , professor b: mm - hmm . right . phd a: and then two neura two neural networks . professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: mmm , and it does n't seem to help . um , however , we just have one result , which is the italian mismatch , so . uh . we have to wait for that to fill the whole table , but professor b: ok . there was a start of some effort on something related to voicing or something . is that ? phd a: yeah . um , yeah . so basically we try to , uh , find good features that could be used for voicing detection , uh , but it 's still , uh on the , um t phd f: oh , well , i have the picture . phd a: we w basically we are still playing with matlab to to look at at what happened , phd c: what sorts of phd f: yeah . phd a: and phd c: what sorts of features are you looking at ? phd f: we have some phd a: so we would be looking at , um , the variance of the spectrum of the excitation , phd f: uh , um , this , this , and this . phd a: something like this , which is should be high for voiced sounds . uh , we phd c: wait a minute . i what does that mean ? the variance of the spectrum of excitation . phd a: yeah . so the so basically the spectrum of the excitation for a purely periodic sig signal shou sh professor b: ok . yeah , w what yo what you 're calling the excitation , as i recall , is you 're subtracting the the , um the mel mel mel filter , uh , spectrum from the fft spectrum . phd a: e that 's right . yeah . so professor b: right . phd a: yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: so we have the mel f filter bank , we have the fft , so we just professor b: so it 's it 's not really an excitation , phd a: no . professor b: but it 's something that hopefully tells you something about the excitation . phd a: yeah , that 's right . professor b: yeah , yeah . phd a: um yeah . phd f: we have here some histogram , phd a: e yeah , phd f: but they have a lot of overlap . phd a: but it 's it 's still yeah . so , well , for unvoiced portion we have something tha that has a mean around o point three , and for voiced portion the mean is o point fifty - nine . but the variance seem quite high . phd c: how do you know ? phd a: so mmm . phd c: how did you get your voiced and unvoiced truth data ? phd a: we used , uh , timit and we used canonical mappings between the phones phd f: yeah . we , uh , use timit on this , phd a: and phd f: for phd a: th yeah . phd f: but if we look at it in one sentence , it apparently it 's good , i think . phd a: yeah , but yeah . uh , so it 's noisy timit . that 's right . yeah . grad e: it 's noisy timit . phd f: yeah . phd a: it seems quite robust to noise , so when we take we draw its parameters across time for a clean sentence and then nois the same noisy sentence , it 's very close . professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . so there are there is this . there could be also the , um something like the maximum of the auto - correlation function or which phd c: is this a a s a trained system ? or is it a system where you just pick some thresholds ? ho - how does it work ? phd a: right now we just are trying to find some features . and , phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: uh yeah . hopefully , i think what we want to have is to put these features in s some kind of , um well , to to obtain a statistical model on these features and to or just to use a neural network and hopefully these features w would help phd c: because it seems like what you said about the mean of the the voiced and the unvoiced { comment } that seemed pretty encouraging . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: well , yeah , except the variance was big . phd c: right ? phd a: yeah . except the variance is quite high . professor b: right ? phd c: well , y phd a: yeah . phd c: well , y i i do n't know that i would trust that so much because you 're doing these canonical mappings from timit labellings . phd a: uh - huh . phd c: right ? so , really that 's sort of a cartoon picture about what 's voiced and unvoiced . so that could be giving you a lot of variance . phd a: yeah . phd c: i mean , i it it may be that that you 're finding something good and that the variance is sort of artificial because of how you 're getting your truth . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . but another way of looking at it might be that i mean , what w we we are coming up with feature sets after all . so another way of looking at it is that um , the mel cepstru mel spectrum , mel cepstrum , any of these variants , um , give you the smooth spectrum . it 's the spectral envelope . by going back to the fft , you 're getting something that is more like the raw data . so the question is , what characterization and you 're playing around with this another way of looking at it is what characterization of the difference between the raw data and this smooth version is something that you 're missing that could help ? so , i mean , looking at different statistical measures of that difference , coming up with some things and just trying them out and seeing if you add them onto the feature vector does that make things better or worse in noise , where you 're really just i i the way i 'm looking at it is not so much you 're trying to f find the best the world 's best voiced - unvoiced , uh , uh , classifier , phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: mmm . professor b: but it 's more that , you know , uh , uh , try some different statistical characterizations of that difference back to the raw data phd c: right . professor b: and and m maybe there 's something there that the system can use . phd c: right . phd a: yeah . yeah , but ther more obvious is that yeah . the the more obvious is that that well , using the th the fft , um , you just it gives you just information about if it 's voiced or not voiced , ma mainly , i mean . but so , professor b: yeah . phd a: this is why we we started to look by having sort of voiced phonemes professor b: well , that 's the rea w w what i 'm arguing is that 's yeah . i mean , uh , what i 'm arguing is that that that 's givi you gives you your intuition . phd a: and mm - hmm . professor b: but in in reality , it 's you know , there 's all of this this overlap and so forth , grad e: oh , sorry . professor b: and but what i 'm saying is that may be ok , because what you 're really getting is not actually voiced versus unvoiced , both for the fac the reason of the overlap and and then , uh , th you know , structural reasons , uh , uh , like the one that chuck said , that that in fact , well , the data itself is that you 're working with is not perfect . phd a: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: so , what i 'm saying is maybe that 's not a killer because you 're just getting some characterization , one that 's driven by your intuition about voiced - unvoiced certainly , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: but it 's just some characterization of something back in the in the in the almost raw data , rather than the smooth version . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and your intuition is driving you towards particular kinds of , uh , statistical characterizations of , um , what 's missing from the spectral envelope . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: um , obviously you have something about the excitation , um , and what is it about the excitation , and , you know and you 're not getting the excitation anyway , you know . so so i i would almost take a uh , especially if if these trainings and so forth are faster , i would almost just take a uh , a scattershot at a few different ways of look of characterizing that difference and , uh , you could have one of them but and and see , you know , which of them helps . phd a: mm - hmm . ok . phd c: so i is the idea that you 're going to take whatever features you develop and and just add them onto the future vector ? or , what 's the use of the the voiced - unvoiced detector ? phd a: uh , i guess we do n't know exactly yet . but , um yeah . th phd c: it 's not part of a vad system that you 're doing ? phd f: no . phd a: uh , no . no . phd c: oh , ok . phd a: no , the idea was , i guess , to to use them as as features . phd c: features . i see . phd a: uh yeah , it could be , uh it could be a neural network that does voiced and unvoiced detection , phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: but it could be in the also the big neural network that does phoneme classification . phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: mmm . yeah . professor b: but each one of the mixture components i mean , you have , uh , uh , variance only , so it 's kind of like you 're just multiplying together these , um , probabilities from the individual features within each mixture . so it 's so , uh , it seems l you know phd c: i think it 's a neat thing . uh , it seems like a good idea . professor b: yeah . um . yeah . i mean , i know that , um , people doing some robustness things a ways back were were just doing just being gross and just throwing in the fft and actually it was n't was n't was n't so bad . uh , so it would s and and you know that i it 's got ta hurt you a little bit to not have a a spectral , uh a s a smooth spectral envelope , so there must be something else that you get in return for that phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: that , uh uh so . phd c: so how does uh , maybe i 'm going in too much detail , but how exactly do you make the difference between the fft and the smoothed spectral envelope ? wha - wh i i uh , how is that , uh ? phd a: um , we just how did we do it up again ? phd f: uh , we distend the we have the twenty - three coefficient af after the mel f filter , phd a: mm - hmm . phd f: and we extend these coefficient between the all the frequency range . phd c: mm - hmm . phd f: and i the interpolation i between the point is give for the triang triangular filter , the value of the triangular filter and of this way we obtained this mode this model speech . phd a: s professor b: so you essentially take the values that th that you get from the triangular filter and extend them to sor sort of like a rectangle , that 's at that m value . phd f: yeah . phd a: yeah . i think we have linear interpolation . phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: so we have we have one point for one energy for each filter bank , phd f: mmm yeah , it 's linear . phd c: mmm . professor b: oh . phd a: which is the energy that 's centered on on on the triangle phd f: yeah . at the n at the center of the filter phd c: so you you end up with a vector that 's the same length as the fft vector ? phd a: yeah . that 's right . phd f: yeah . phd c: and then you just , uh , compute differences phd f: yeah . i have here one example if you if you want see something like that . phd a: then we compute the difference . phd c: and , phd a: yeah . uh - huh . professor b: ok . phd c: uh , sum the differences ? phd a: so . and i think the variance is computed only from , like , two hundred hertz to one to fifteen hundred . phd c: oh ! ok . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: two thou two { comment } fifteen hundred ? professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: because phd f: no . professor b: right . phd f: two hundred and fifty thousand . phd a: fifteen hundred . because yeah . phd f: yeah . two thousand and fifteen hundred . phd a: above , um it seems that well , some voiced sound can have also , like , a noisy part on high frequencies , and but professor b: yeah . phd a: well , it 's just professor b: no , it 's makes sense to look at low frequencies . phd c: so this is uh , basically this is comparing an original version of the signal to a smoothed version of the same signal ? phd f: yeah . professor b: right . so i so i i this is i mean , i you could argue about whether it should be linear interpolation or or or or zeroeth order , but but phd c: uh - huh . professor b: at any rate something like this is what you 're feeding your recognizer , typically . phd c: like which of the ? professor b: no . uh , so the mel cepstrum is the is the is the cepstrum of this this , uh , spectrum or log spectrum , phd a: so this is yeah . phd c: yeah . right , right . professor b: whatever it you - you 're subtracting in in in power domain or log domain ? phd a: in log domain . yeah . phd f: log domain . professor b: ok . so it 's sort of like division , when you do the yeah , the spectra . phd f: yeah . phd a: uh , yeah . phd c: it 's the ratio . professor b: um . yeah . but , anyway , um and that 's phd c: so what 's th uh , what 's the intuition behind this kind of a thing ? i i do n't know really know the signal - processing well enough to understand what what is that doing . phd a: so . yeah . what happen if what we have have what we would like to have is some spectrum of the excitation signal , professor b: yeah . i guess that makes sense . yeah . phd a: which is for voiced sound ideally a a pulse train phd c: uh - huh . phd a: and for unvoiced it 's something that 's more flat . phd c: uh - huh . right . phd a: and the way to do this is that well , we have the we have the fft because it 's computed in in the in the system , and we have the mel filter banks , phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: and so if we if we , like , remove the mel filter bank from the fft , we have something that 's close to the excitation signal . grad e: oh . phd a: it 's something that 's like a a a train of p a pulse train for voiced sound phd c: ok . professor b: yeah . phd c: oh ! ok . yeah . phd a: and that 's that should be flat for professor b: yeah . phd c: i see . so do you have a picture that sh ? phd a: so - it 's y phd c: is this for a voiced segment , phd a: yeah . phd c: this picture ? what does it look like for unvoiced ? phd f: yeah . phd a: you have several some unvoiced ? phd f: the dif no . unvoiced , i do n't have phd a: oh . phd f: for unvoiced . professor b: yeah . so , you know , all phd f: i 'm sorry . phd a: but yeah . professor b: yeah . phd f: yeah . this is the between phd a: this is another voiced example . yeah . phd f: no . but it 's this , phd a: oh , yeah . this is phd f: but between the frequency that we are considered for the excitation phd a: right . mm - hmm . phd f: for the difference and this is the difference . phd a: yeah . phd c: this is the difference . ok . phd a: so , of course , it 's around zero , professor b: yeah . grad e: sure looks phd a: but grad e: hmm . phd a: well , no . phd c: hmm . phd a: it is phd f: yeah . because we begin , uh , in fifteen point the fifteen point . phd c: so , does does the periodicity of this signal say something about the the phd f: fifteen p phd a: so it 's yeah . professor b: pitch . phd a: it 's the pitch . phd c: the pitch ? phd a: yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . phd c: ok . professor b: that 's like fundamental frequency . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: so , i mean , i t t phd c: ok . i see . professor b: i mean , to first order what you 'd what you 're doing i mean , ignore all the details and all the ways which is that these are complete lies . uh , the the you know , what you 're doing in feature extraction for speech recognition is you have , uh , in your head a a a a simplified production model for speech , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: in which you have a periodic or aperiodic source that 's driving some filters . phd c: mm - hmm . phd f: yeah . this is the the auto - correlation the r - zero energy . phd a: do you have the mean do you have the mean for the auto - correlation ? professor b: uh , first order for speech recognition , you say `` i do n't care about the source `` . phd f: for yeah . phd a: well , i mean for the the energy . phd f: i have the mean . professor b: right ? phd c: right . professor b: and so you just want to find out what the filters are . phd c: right . phd f: yeah . professor b: the filters roughly act like a , um a , uh a an overall resonant you know , f some resonances and so forth that th that 's processing excitation . phd f: here . phd a: they should be more close . phd f: ah , no . this is this ? more close . is this ? and this . phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . phd c: mm - hmm . phd a: so they are this is there is less difference . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so if you look at the spectral envelope , just the very smooth properties of it , you get something closer to that . phd a: this is less it 's less robust . phd f: less robust . yeah . phd a: oh , yeah . professor b: and the notion is if you have the full spectrum , with all the little nitty - gritty details , that that has the effect of both , phd c: yeah . professor b: and it would be a multiplication in in frequency domain phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so that would be like an addition in log power spectrum domain . phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: and so this is saying , well , if you really do have that sort of vocal tract envelope , and you subtract that off , what you get is the excitation . and i call that lies because you do n't really have that , you just have some kind of signal - processing trickery to get something that 's kind of smooth . it 's not really what 's happening in the vocal tract phd c: yeah . professor b: so you 're not really getting the vocal excitation . phd c: right . professor b: that 's why i was going to the why i was referring to it in a more a more , uh , uh , conservative way , when i was saying `` well , it 's yeah , it 's the excitation `` . but it 's not really the excitation . it 's whatever it is that 's different between phd c: oh . this moved in the professor b: so so , stand standing back from that , you sort of say there 's this very detailed representation . phd c: yeah . professor b: you go to a smooth representation . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: you go to a smooth representation cuz this typically generalizes better . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: um , but whenever you smooth you lose something , so the question is have you lost something you can you use ? phd c: right . professor b: um , probably you would n't want to go to the extreme of just ta saying `` ok , our feature set will be the fft `` , cuz we really think we do gain something in robustness from going to something smoother , but maybe there 's something that we missed . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so what is it ? phd c: yeah . professor b: and then you go back to the intuition that , well , you do n't really get the excitation , but you get something related to it . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: and it and as you can see from those pictures , you do get something that shows some periodicity , uh , in frequency , phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: you know , and and and also in time . phd c: hmm . professor b: so phd c: that 's that 's really neat . professor b: so , phd c: so you do n't have one for unvoiced picture ? phd f: uh , not here . phd c: oh . phd f: no , i have s phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . phd f: but not here . professor b: but presumably you 'll see something that wo n't have this kind of , uh , uh , uh , regularity in frequency , uh , in the phd a: but yeah . well . phd f: not here . phd c: i would li i would like to see those pictures . phd f: well , so . professor b: yeah . phd f: i ca n't see you { comment } now . professor b: yeah . phd c: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . phd f: i do n't have . phd c: and so you said this is pretty doing this kind of thing is pretty robust to noise ? phd a: it seems , yeah . um , phd c: huh . phd f: pfft . oops . the mean is different with it , because the the histogram for the the classifica phd a: no , no , no . but th the kind of robustness to noise phd f: oh ! phd a: so if if you take this frame , uh , from the noisy utterance and the same frame from the clean utterance phd f: hmm . phd c: you end up with a similar difference phd a: y y y yeah . we end up with phd c: over here ? phd a: yeah . phd c: ok . cool ! phd f: i have here the same frame for the clean speech phd c: oh , that 's clean . phd f: the same cle phd c: oh , ok phd f: but they are a difference . phd a: yeah , that 's phd f: because here the fft is only with two hundred fifty - six point phd c: oh . phd f: and this is with five hundred twelve . phd a: yeah . this is kind of inter interesting also phd c: ok . phd a: because if we use the standard , uh , frame length of of , like , twenty - five milliseconds , um , what happens is that for low - pitched voiced , because of the frame length , y you do n't really have you do n't clearly see this periodic structure , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: because of the first lobe of of each each of the harmonics . phd c: so this one inclu is a longer ah . phd a: so , this is like yeah , fifty milliseconds or something like that . phd f: fifty millis yeah . phd a: yeah , but it 's the same frame and phd c: oh , it 's that time - frequency trade - off thing . phd a: yeah . phd c: right ? i see . yeah . phd a: so , yeah . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: oh . oh , so this i is this the difference here , for that ? phd f: no . this is the signal . this is the signal . phd a: i see that . oh , yeah . phd f: the frame . phd c: oh , that 's the f the original . phd a: yeah . phd f: this is the fra the original frame . phd a: so with a short frame basically you have only two periods phd c: yeah . phd a: and it 's not not enough to to have this kind of neat things . phd c: mm - hmm . phd f: mm - hmm . phd c: yeah . phd a: but phd f: and here no , well . phd a: yeah . so probably we 'll have to use , like , long f long frames . mm - hmm . phd c: mm - hmm . grad e: hmm . phd c: oh . professor b: mmm . phd c: that 's interesting . professor b: yeah , maybe . well , i mean it looks better , but , i mean , the thing is if if , uh if you 're actually asking you know , if you actually j uh , need to do place along an fft , it may be it may be pushing things . phd a: yeah . professor b: and and , uh phd c: would you would you wan na do this kind of , uh , difference thing after you do spectral subtraction ? phd a: uh , maybe . phd f: no . maybe we can do that . phd a: mmm . professor b: hmm . the spectral subtraction is being done at what level ? is it being done at the level of fft bins or at the level of , uh , mel spectrum or something ? phd a: um , i guess it depends . professor b: i mean , how are they doing it ? phd a: how they 're doing it ? yeah . um , i guess ericsson is on the , um , filter bank , phd f: fft . filter bank , phd a: no ? it 's on the filter bank , phd f: yeah . phd a: so . so , yeah , probably i i it yeah . professor b: so in that case , it might not make much difference at all . phd c: seems like you 'd wan na do it on the fft bins . professor b: maybe . i mean , certainly it 'd be better . phd c: i i mean , if you were gon na uh , for for this purpose , that is . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . ok . phd a: mmm . professor b: what else ? phd a: uh . yeah , that 's all . so we 'll perhaps try to convince ogi people to use the new the new filters and yeah . professor b: ok . uh , has has anything happened yet on this business of having some sort of standard , uh , source , phd a: uh , not yet professor b: or ? phd a: but i wi i will call them and professor b: ok . phd a: now they are i think they have more time because they have this well , eurospeech deadline is over phd c: when is the next , um , aurora deadline ? phd a: and it 's , um , in june . yeah . phd c: june . professor b: early june , late june , middle june ? phd a: i do n't know w professor b: hmm . grad e: hmm . professor b: ok . um , and he 's been doing all the talking but but these he 's he 's , uh phd f: yeah . professor b: this is this by the way a bad thing . we 're trying to get , um , m more female voices in this record as well . so . make sur make sure carmen talks as well . uh , but has he pretty much been talking about what you 're doing also , and ? phd f: oh , i i am doing this . professor b: yes . phd f: yeah , yeah . i do n't know . i 'm sorry , but i think that for the recognizer for the meeting recorder that it 's better that i do n't speak . professor b: yeah , well . phd f: because professor b: you know , uh , we 'll get we 'll get to , uh , spanish voices sometime , and we do we want to recognize , uh , you too . phd f: after the after , uh , the result for the ti - digits on the meeting record there will be foreigns people . phd a: yeah , but professor b: oh , no . phd c: y professor b: we like we we 're we 're w we are we 're in the , uh , bourlard - hermansky - morgan , uh , frame of mind . yeah , we like high error rates . it 's phd a: yeah . professor b: that way there 's lots of work to do . so it 's uh , anything to talk about ? grad d: n um , not not not much is new . so when i talked about what i 'm planning to do last time , i said i was , um , going to use avendano 's method of , um , using a transformation , um , to map from long analysis frames which are used for removing reverberation to short analysis frames for feature calculation . he has a trick for doing that involving viewing the dft as a matrix . um , but , uh , um , i decided not to do that after all because i i realized to use it i 'd need to have these short analysis frames get plugged directly into the feature computation somehow professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: and right now i think our feature computation is set to up to , um , take , um , audio as input , in general . so i decided that i i 'll do the reverberation removal on the long analysis windows and then just re - synthesize audio and then send that . professor b: this is in order to use the sri system or something . right ? grad d: um , or or even if i 'm using our system , i was thinking it might be easier to just re - synthesize the audio , professor b: yeah ? grad d: because then i could just feacalc as is and i would n't have to change the code . professor b: oh , ok . yeah . i mean , it 's um , certainly in a short short - term this just sounds easier . grad d: uh - huh . professor b: yeah . i mean , longer - term if it 's if it turns out to be useful , one one might want to do something else , grad d: right . that 's true . professor b: but uh , uh , i mean , in in other words , you you may be putting other kinds of errors in from the re - synthesis process . grad d: but e u from the re - synthesis ? um , professor b: yeah . grad d: o - ok . i do n't know anything about re - synthesis . uh , how likely do you think that is ? professor b: uh , it depends what you what you do . i mean , it 's it 's it 's , uh , um do n't know . but anyway it sounds like a reasonable way to go for a for an initial thing , and we can look at at exactly what you end up doing and and then figure out if there 's some something that could be be hurt by the end part of the process . grad d: ok . professor b: ok . so that 's that was it , huh ? grad d: that yeah , e that 's it , that 's it . professor b: ok . ok . grad d: uh - huh . professor b: um , anything to add ? grad e: um . well , i 've been continuing reading . i went off on a little tangent this past week , um , looking at , uh , uh , modulation s spectrum stuff , um , and and learning a bit about what what , um what it is , and , uh , the importance of it in speech recognition . and i found some some , uh , neat papers , um , historical papers from , um , kanedera , hermansky , and arai . professor b: yeah . grad e: and they they did a lot of experiments where th where , um , they take speech and , um , e they modify the , uh they they they measure the relative importance of having different , um , portions of the modulation spectrum intact . professor b: yeah . grad e: and they find that the the spectrum between one and sixteen hertz in the modulation is , uh is im important for speech recognition . professor b: sure . i mean , this sort of goes back to earlier stuff by drullman . grad e: um . professor b: and and , uh , the the msg features were sort of built up with this notion grad e: yeah . right . professor b: but , i guess , i thought you had brought this up in the context of , um , targets somehow . grad e: right . professor b: but i m grad e: um professor b: i it 's not i mean , they 're sort of not in the same kind of category as , say , a phonetic target or a syllabic target grad e: mmm . mm - hmm . professor b: or a grad e: um , i was thinking more like using them as as the inputs to to the detectors . professor b: or a feature or something . oh , i see . well , that 's sort of what msg does . grad e: yeah . yeah . professor b: right ? so it 's grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: but but , uh grad e: s professor b: yeah . grad e: yeah . professor b: anyway , we 'll talk more about it later . grad e: ok . professor b: yeah . grad e: we can talk more about it later . professor b: yeah . yeah . grad e: yeah . professor b: so maybe , le phd c: should we do digits ? professor b: let 's do digits . let you you start . grad d: oh , ok . grad e: l fifty . phd a: right .

phd a thought that a good vad could not be made without baseline features . on-line normalization was not helping the model when spectral subtraction was already in play . the short filters were performing as well as the long ones , and the model was doing well on the well-matched case . despite mixed results , the shorter latency was a positive sign .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> industrial designer: marketing: project manager: marketing: hmm . project manager: okay . good morning everybody . um i 'm glad you could all come . i 'm really excited to start this team . um i 'm just gon na have a little powerpoint presentation for us , for our kick-off meeting . my name is rose lindgren . i i 'll be the project manager . um our agenda today is we are gon na do a little opening and then i 'm gon na talk a little bit about the project , then we 'll move into acquaintance such as getting to know each other a little bit , including a tool training exercise . and then we 'll move into the project plan , do a little discussion and close , since we only have twenty five minutes . first of all our project aim . um we are creating a new remote control which we have three goals about , it needs to be original , trendy and user-friendly . i 'm hoping that we can all work together to achieve all three of those . um so we 're gon na divide us up into three compa three parts . first the functional design which will be uh first we 'll do individual work , come into a meeting , the conceptional design , individual work and a meeting , and then the detailed design , individual work and a meeting . so that we 'll each be doing our own ideas and then coming together and um collaborating . okay , we 're gon na get to know each other a little bit . so um , what we 're gon na do is start off with um let 's start off with amina . um alima , industrial designer: alima . project manager: sorry , alima . industrial designer: project manager: um we 're gon na do a little tool training , so we are gon na work with that whiteboard behind you . um introduce yourself , um say one thing about yourself and then draw your favourite animal and tell us about it . industrial designer: okay . um i do n't know which one of these i have to bring with me . project manager: probably both . industrial designer: right , so , i 'm supposed to draw my favourite animal . i have no drawing skills whatsoever . but uh let 's see , introduce myself . my name is alima bucciantini . um i 'm from the state of maine in the us . i 'm doing nationalism studies , blah , blah , blah , and i have no artistic talents . project manager: how do you spell your name ? industrial designer: a_ l_ i_ m_ a_ . project manager: thanks . industrial designer: oh , and i guess i 'm the industrial designer on this project . so let 's see if i can get marketing: industrial designer: um here . i will draw a little turtle for you all . not necessarily 'cause it 's my absolute favourite animal , but just that i think they 're drawable . and you have the pretty little shell going on . some little eyes . happy . there you go . that 's a turtle . marketing: yes . project manager: so what are your favourite characteristics ? industrial designer: um . i i like the whole having a shell thing . project manager: mm . industrial designer: it 's quite cool carry your home around where you go , um quite decorative little animals , they can swim , they can , they 're very adaptable , they carry everything they need with them , um and they 're easy to draw . project manager: excellent . user interface: project manager: shall we just go around the table ? user interface: uh okay . well , my name is iain uh project manager: mm . user interface: and i 'm the user interface designer for the project . um . and i 'll try and draw my favourite animal . industrial designer: no , user interface: i 'll i should leave that one on there industrial designer: you can erase the turtle , user interface: should n't i before i callously rub it off . industrial designer: it 's alright . project manager: might be nice to have them all up there at same time . user interface: um i 'm not gon na draw it quite to scale um . industrial designer: user interface: is that at least identifiable ? industrial designer: snake . marketing: well . project manager: em industrial designer: well , user interface: it 's a whale , yes . industrial designer: snake ? it 's w user interface: thanks . marketing: oh my god , it 's better than what i 'm gon na be able to do . user interface: um and , yeah , the reason i like whales is 'cause uh they 're well , first of all they 're quite intelligent um and also they 're they 're kind of mysterious , like we do n't really know much about them or or understand how they work , how they form groups . and i just find them interesting animals . marketing: take my contraptions with me . alright , i 'm jessy . i 'm from around d_c_ ish sort of in the u_s_ . and we 're gon na keep the deep sea sort of theme going on , animal . do n't really know how to draw this . just where can i mm . mm . maybe if i do the water , industrial designer: marketing: but how ? sort of give an idea . i have no idea how one would explain this . mm maybe with some whiskers . briefly , it 's supposed to be a seal . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: you can imagine it in the water . i like them , because they are like playful and silly sort of have a good time . not gon na try and pretend like i can get any better than that . project manager: mm 'kay . mm 'kay ? i 'm rose and i 'm project manager , from california . um . hmm . s industrial designer: oh , marketing: it 's definitely significantly harder once you are doing it . industrial designer: a cat . project manager: um it 's actually a coyote . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: let 's see . let 's see , industrial designer: right . marketing: that 's impressive . project manager: let 's give it a little bit of a snout , i do n't know , some teeth . industrial designer: that 's project manager: yeah . industrial designer: that 's pretty impressive . user interface: cool . project manager: oh dear . yes . industrial designer: project manager: i live um i live right across the street from an open space in california . we have coyotes howl all the time . so i really enjoy their their singing , you they 're really beautiful animals . mm . okay um , moving on to slightly more serious stuff . we 're gon na talk about project finances . um we have a couple we 'd like to sell it for about twenty five euro with the profit aim of um fifteen million euro um from our sales and because this is such this is for television it 's a we have a market range of internet , like it 's an international market range , we do n't have to worry about specifics . um in order to make a profit of this magnitude , we need to um be able to produce each one at a maximum of twelve fifty euro . so we 're selling it for twice what we 'd like to produce it for . okay um , just to generate a little bit of discussion about the project um , i could i 'd like to hear about your experiences using ro remote controls , um your first ideas about um creating a new r remote control , what would be the best um like you what are the features that you really like what are the features that you do n't like , etcetera , so marketing: um i hate when there 's like four different buttons and you have to press to actually turn on the tv like you have to do one for the power of the tv and then like another one to get the actual screen on and something else to get it all going , i do n't know . now they keep combining all different remotes together , and i do n't know if i necessarily like that 'cause i feel like you end up with multimedia overload . user interface: marketing: i just wan na watch the tv um . project manager: hmm . marketing: always gets lost . some sort of like device to help you find it . user interface: i 've used , i 've used remote controls , for things like tv and the c_d_ player and video recorder and i i guess they 're they 're pretty neat neat little tools uh . you do n't have to get up and walk across the room to change a channel . project manager: mm . user interface: so especially if you 're someone really lazy like me they they 're pretty nice . um . i find them they can be a bit annoying , especially , like you know if i 'm watching tv i have have to have three separate remote controls of in front of me , you know , one for the tv , one for the digital box , one for m the video recorder as well . um . and also they tend to they tend to be a bit confusing , they 've got too many buttons on them uh too too sort of too sort of complicated when all i really wan na do is switch on and off , change the channel , change the volume . industrial designer: yeah um . i agree with having too many remotes around . my dad has a whole drawer at home of remotes for various things , and i do n't know how to work half of them um . what 's important for me , i guess , is that it 's easy to use and that there 's not too many buttons , they are not too small , you know you know you need to n to know what you 're doing . and one thing i particularly like is if you are not um sort of moving it around to get it to work with the infra-red . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um , i think there is a way around that , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but i know in my residence right now the the television you sort of have to walk all around the room to get it to turn on , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so i it 's just simpler just to just turn around the tv itself , and i think that 's if we 're gon na make a remote control , it should actually work for what it 's doing . so marketing: what about like batteries and things like that , like are there some remotes that don do n't require like batteries or do all remotes require batteries ? project manager: um i would imagine all of them , industrial designer: i know . project manager: but we could but it 's possible we could use like a lithium battery um that would last a lot longer than like double a_s . industrial designer: yeah , something that does n't marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um like tho those are the batteries that are used in a lot of um m_p_ three players now and that kind of thing . um . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um . okay , it seems we have a little bit of a conflict over um to uh combining all the remotes cont together versus having f five different remotes . so um like you said you do n't like having all the buttons on one on one remote , and yet you do n't wan na have five remotes . so how do we work with that ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: could we get something that just has no does n't have all the buttons that you need to program the video recorder or program s other things that i 'm not very coherent about , but that just has your major buttons for that work for everything , you know volume control , on , off , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: channel changing . marketing: and maybe that spatially divides it , so it 's like if you 're looki if you 're trying to get the tv on that 's , you know , like the top thing on the remote , i dunno if d be vertical or horizontal in terms of how we 're gon na make it , but if it 's like all the tv stuff was here , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: then all the v_c_r_ stuff was here , all the whatever else we have programmed into it it 's all just in its separate place and not like all the on buttons together , project manager: mm . industrial designer: n that way yeah . marketing: 'cause then you like , i do n't even know what i 'm turning on . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yeah , and if um if you 'd save the more complicated functions maybe for separate remotes that you would n't need to use every day . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , so maybe have like one remote that has the main functions on , off , channel changing , volume , and another rote remote with all the special things . industrial designer: um . project manager: because that is one thing that um remotes tend to have buttons that the tvs no longer have as well . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so like you have to have them somewhere , industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'cause you 're gon na m need those special functions occasionally . um but not necessarily on the m the normal remote . industrial designer: right . user interface: can i ask , are we designing a remote control for a television only project manager: good question . user interface: um , and if if this device is just to be used for the television would we even technically be possible to include video recorder functions on it ? project manager: i do n't know that yet . user interface: um or should we just stick to just stick to having television television related buttons on it ? industrial designer: mm . project manager: it 's a good question . um . i 'll look into that . marketing: mm-hmm hmm . project manager: if i can . user interface: marketing: i think it 's just tv , i mean , if it if we 're taking it just new product a new television remote control that 's not like does n't say . industrial designer: mm yeah . marketing: you know , things might be more advanced than that . project manager: mm . user interface: so we should maybe we should assume that i t it 's just a television that we 're wanting to control . industrial designer: user interface: well , i mean i suppose it would be nice to have playing and record and stop buttons on it for the video recorder as well i i do n't know if that works technologically or not . industrial designer: yes . i guess we have to define what what we 're aiming for . if it 's just a television then that it 's a bit simpler , 'cause there 's less buttons that would even need to be on it . user interface: yeah . marketing: it 's an idea with the buttons being really . industrial designer: large . if you have older people or people like me that are n't very co-ordinated hand-eye , it 's really quite important that you are not pressing a small like teeny mobiles phone size buttons , if we can help it . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . 'kay sounds like we 've had a good little discussion for our first ideas . mind if we move on ? ps industrial designer: project manager: mm okay . user interface: 'kay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um now our next meeting starts in thirty minutes . i believe we 've actually been only working on this this one for about twenty , so we can continue discussing more new ideas if you 'd like um , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: but this is just a breakdown of what we 'll be doing individually . um the industrial design , alima will be doing um the working design . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um the user interface designer , that 's for . technical functions , i guess like keeping in mind the buttons thing , the size of the buttons . um user requirements um , so you 'll be hearing about different trends , uh about different things that people need , um i guess kind of the same uh discussion that we 've been having , we 'll get from the actual consum s consumers . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm 'kay um . and you will get specific instructions sent by your personal coach . i realised in this past one we we did n't have much , we just wanted to get a little brain-storming done . um so very exited to see all your animals and how what wonderful um artists we all are um . user interface: project manager: any questions ? industrial designer: user interface: what we 're gon na be discussing at the next meeting ? do we know that ? project manager: i have n't gotten an agenda yet , um i 'll put that together . i 'm sure as we 'll each get our own instruction user interface: right . project manager: and then um because what we gon na do is first our individual actions and then we 'll come back together . so i 'm sure we 'll all have more concrete things to contribute next time user interface: yep . industrial designer: 'kay . user interface: yep . industrial designer: i 'm sure we 'll be busy . user interface: project manager: mm 'kay um i 'll type up mi minutes and probably email those out to all of you . um just including all the things that we talked about . um . user interface: okay . can you e-mail your slides as well ? is that possible ? project manager: yes , i yes , i think i can . mm-hmm . user interface: cool project manager: i 'll just attach it to an email . and you 're you 're number two , industrial designer: i 'm two . project manager: three , four ? marketing: i 'm four . project manager: is that correct ? okay . industrial designer: alright . project manager: excellent . it was lovely meeting you all . user interface: 'kay project manager: just make sure you keep checking the company web site and the emails . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: let me see if i can do that right now .

project manager briefed members on a new remote control project . by drawing favourite animals , the team got to know each other . two complementary remote controls could be designed for a certain object , one having main functions and another with all the special things . and this device was just aimed for television , without video recorder functions on it .

summarize the discussion about use cases . </s> industrial designer: marketing: project manager: marketing: hmm . project manager: okay . good morning everybody . um i 'm glad you could all come . i 'm really excited to start this team . um i 'm just gon na have a little powerpoint presentation for us , for our kick-off meeting . my name is rose lindgren . i i 'll be the project manager . um our agenda today is we are gon na do a little opening and then i 'm gon na talk a little bit about the project , then we 'll move into acquaintance such as getting to know each other a little bit , including a tool training exercise . and then we 'll move into the project plan , do a little discussion and close , since we only have twenty five minutes . first of all our project aim . um we are creating a new remote control which we have three goals about , it needs to be original , trendy and user-friendly . i 'm hoping that we can all work together to achieve all three of those . um so we 're gon na divide us up into three compa three parts . first the functional design which will be uh first we 'll do individual work , come into a meeting , the conceptional design , individual work and a meeting , and then the detailed design , individual work and a meeting . so that we 'll each be doing our own ideas and then coming together and um collaborating . okay , we 're gon na get to know each other a little bit . so um , what we 're gon na do is start off with um let 's start off with amina . um alima , industrial designer: alima . project manager: sorry , alima . industrial designer: project manager: um we 're gon na do a little tool training , so we are gon na work with that whiteboard behind you . um introduce yourself , um say one thing about yourself and then draw your favourite animal and tell us about it . industrial designer: okay . um i do n't know which one of these i have to bring with me . project manager: probably both . industrial designer: right , so , i 'm supposed to draw my favourite animal . i have no drawing skills whatsoever . but uh let 's see , introduce myself . my name is alima bucciantini . um i 'm from the state of maine in the us . i 'm doing nationalism studies , blah , blah , blah , and i have no artistic talents . project manager: how do you spell your name ? industrial designer: a_ l_ i_ m_ a_ . project manager: thanks . industrial designer: oh , and i guess i 'm the industrial designer on this project . so let 's see if i can get marketing: industrial designer: um here . i will draw a little turtle for you all . not necessarily 'cause it 's my absolute favourite animal , but just that i think they 're drawable . and you have the pretty little shell going on . some little eyes . happy . there you go . that 's a turtle . marketing: yes . project manager: so what are your favourite characteristics ? industrial designer: um . i i like the whole having a shell thing . project manager: mm . industrial designer: it 's quite cool carry your home around where you go , um quite decorative little animals , they can swim , they can , they 're very adaptable , they carry everything they need with them , um and they 're easy to draw . project manager: excellent . user interface: project manager: shall we just go around the table ? user interface: uh okay . well , my name is iain uh project manager: mm . user interface: and i 'm the user interface designer for the project . um . and i 'll try and draw my favourite animal . industrial designer: no , user interface: i 'll i should leave that one on there industrial designer: you can erase the turtle , user interface: should n't i before i callously rub it off . industrial designer: it 's alright . project manager: might be nice to have them all up there at same time . user interface: um i 'm not gon na draw it quite to scale um . industrial designer: user interface: is that at least identifiable ? industrial designer: snake . marketing: well . project manager: em industrial designer: well , user interface: it 's a whale , yes . industrial designer: snake ? it 's w user interface: thanks . marketing: oh my god , it 's better than what i 'm gon na be able to do . user interface: um and , yeah , the reason i like whales is 'cause uh they 're well , first of all they 're quite intelligent um and also they 're they 're kind of mysterious , like we do n't really know much about them or or understand how they work , how they form groups . and i just find them interesting animals . marketing: take my contraptions with me . alright , i 'm jessy . i 'm from around d_c_ ish sort of in the u_s_ . and we 're gon na keep the deep sea sort of theme going on , animal . do n't really know how to draw this . just where can i mm . mm . maybe if i do the water , industrial designer: marketing: but how ? sort of give an idea . i have no idea how one would explain this . mm maybe with some whiskers . briefly , it 's supposed to be a seal . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: you can imagine it in the water . i like them , because they are like playful and silly sort of have a good time . not gon na try and pretend like i can get any better than that . project manager: mm 'kay . mm 'kay ? i 'm rose and i 'm project manager , from california . um . hmm . s industrial designer: oh , marketing: it 's definitely significantly harder once you are doing it . industrial designer: a cat . project manager: um it 's actually a coyote . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: let 's see . let 's see , industrial designer: right . marketing: that 's impressive . project manager: let 's give it a little bit of a snout , i do n't know , some teeth . industrial designer: that 's project manager: yeah . industrial designer: that 's pretty impressive . user interface: cool . project manager: oh dear . yes . industrial designer: project manager: i live um i live right across the street from an open space in california . we have coyotes howl all the time . so i really enjoy their their singing , you they 're really beautiful animals . mm . okay um , moving on to slightly more serious stuff . we 're gon na talk about project finances . um we have a couple we 'd like to sell it for about twenty five euro with the profit aim of um fifteen million euro um from our sales and because this is such this is for television it 's a we have a market range of internet , like it 's an international market range , we do n't have to worry about specifics . um in order to make a profit of this magnitude , we need to um be able to produce each one at a maximum of twelve fifty euro . so we 're selling it for twice what we 'd like to produce it for . okay um , just to generate a little bit of discussion about the project um , i could i 'd like to hear about your experiences using ro remote controls , um your first ideas about um creating a new r remote control , what would be the best um like you what are the features that you really like what are the features that you do n't like , etcetera , so marketing: um i hate when there 's like four different buttons and you have to press to actually turn on the tv like you have to do one for the power of the tv and then like another one to get the actual screen on and something else to get it all going , i do n't know . now they keep combining all different remotes together , and i do n't know if i necessarily like that 'cause i feel like you end up with multimedia overload . user interface: marketing: i just wan na watch the tv um . project manager: hmm . marketing: always gets lost . some sort of like device to help you find it . user interface: i 've used , i 've used remote controls , for things like tv and the c_d_ player and video recorder and i i guess they 're they 're pretty neat neat little tools uh . you do n't have to get up and walk across the room to change a channel . project manager: mm . user interface: so especially if you 're someone really lazy like me they they 're pretty nice . um . i find them they can be a bit annoying , especially , like you know if i 'm watching tv i have have to have three separate remote controls of in front of me , you know , one for the tv , one for the digital box , one for m the video recorder as well . um . and also they tend to they tend to be a bit confusing , they 've got too many buttons on them uh too too sort of too sort of complicated when all i really wan na do is switch on and off , change the channel , change the volume . industrial designer: yeah um . i agree with having too many remotes around . my dad has a whole drawer at home of remotes for various things , and i do n't know how to work half of them um . what 's important for me , i guess , is that it 's easy to use and that there 's not too many buttons , they are not too small , you know you know you need to n to know what you 're doing . and one thing i particularly like is if you are not um sort of moving it around to get it to work with the infra-red . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um , i think there is a way around that , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but i know in my residence right now the the television you sort of have to walk all around the room to get it to turn on , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so i it 's just simpler just to just turn around the tv itself , and i think that 's if we 're gon na make a remote control , it should actually work for what it 's doing . so marketing: what about like batteries and things like that , like are there some remotes that don do n't require like batteries or do all remotes require batteries ? project manager: um i would imagine all of them , industrial designer: i know . project manager: but we could but it 's possible we could use like a lithium battery um that would last a lot longer than like double a_s . industrial designer: yeah , something that does n't marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um like tho those are the batteries that are used in a lot of um m_p_ three players now and that kind of thing . um . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um . okay , it seems we have a little bit of a conflict over um to uh combining all the remotes cont together versus having f five different remotes . so um like you said you do n't like having all the buttons on one on one remote , and yet you do n't wan na have five remotes . so how do we work with that ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: could we get something that just has no does n't have all the buttons that you need to program the video recorder or program s other things that i 'm not very coherent about , but that just has your major buttons for that work for everything , you know volume control , on , off , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: channel changing . marketing: and maybe that spatially divides it , so it 's like if you 're looki if you 're trying to get the tv on that 's , you know , like the top thing on the remote , i dunno if d be vertical or horizontal in terms of how we 're gon na make it , but if it 's like all the tv stuff was here , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: then all the v_c_r_ stuff was here , all the whatever else we have programmed into it it 's all just in its separate place and not like all the on buttons together , project manager: mm . industrial designer: n that way yeah . marketing: 'cause then you like , i do n't even know what i 'm turning on . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yeah , and if um if you 'd save the more complicated functions maybe for separate remotes that you would n't need to use every day . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , so maybe have like one remote that has the main functions on , off , channel changing , volume , and another rote remote with all the special things . industrial designer: um . project manager: because that is one thing that um remotes tend to have buttons that the tvs no longer have as well . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so like you have to have them somewhere , industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'cause you 're gon na m need those special functions occasionally . um but not necessarily on the m the normal remote . industrial designer: right . user interface: can i ask , are we designing a remote control for a television only project manager: good question . user interface: um , and if if this device is just to be used for the television would we even technically be possible to include video recorder functions on it ? project manager: i do n't know that yet . user interface: um or should we just stick to just stick to having television television related buttons on it ? industrial designer: mm . project manager: it 's a good question . um . i 'll look into that . marketing: mm-hmm hmm . project manager: if i can . user interface: marketing: i think it 's just tv , i mean , if it if we 're taking it just new product a new television remote control that 's not like does n't say . industrial designer: mm yeah . marketing: you know , things might be more advanced than that . project manager: mm . user interface: so we should maybe we should assume that i t it 's just a television that we 're wanting to control . industrial designer: user interface: well , i mean i suppose it would be nice to have playing and record and stop buttons on it for the video recorder as well i i do n't know if that works technologically or not . industrial designer: yes . i guess we have to define what what we 're aiming for . if it 's just a television then that it 's a bit simpler , 'cause there 's less buttons that would even need to be on it . user interface: yeah . marketing: it 's an idea with the buttons being really . industrial designer: large . if you have older people or people like me that are n't very co-ordinated hand-eye , it 's really quite important that you are not pressing a small like teeny mobiles phone size buttons , if we can help it . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . 'kay sounds like we 've had a good little discussion for our first ideas . mind if we move on ? ps industrial designer: project manager: mm okay . user interface: 'kay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um now our next meeting starts in thirty minutes . i believe we 've actually been only working on this this one for about twenty , so we can continue discussing more new ideas if you 'd like um , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: but this is just a breakdown of what we 'll be doing individually . um the industrial design , alima will be doing um the working design . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um the user interface designer , that 's for . technical functions , i guess like keeping in mind the buttons thing , the size of the buttons . um user requirements um , so you 'll be hearing about different trends , uh about different things that people need , um i guess kind of the same uh discussion that we 've been having , we 'll get from the actual consum s consumers . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm 'kay um . and you will get specific instructions sent by your personal coach . i realised in this past one we we did n't have much , we just wanted to get a little brain-storming done . um so very exited to see all your animals and how what wonderful um artists we all are um . user interface: project manager: any questions ? industrial designer: user interface: what we 're gon na be discussing at the next meeting ? do we know that ? project manager: i have n't gotten an agenda yet , um i 'll put that together . i 'm sure as we 'll each get our own instruction user interface: right . project manager: and then um because what we gon na do is first our individual actions and then we 'll come back together . so i 'm sure we 'll all have more concrete things to contribute next time user interface: yep . industrial designer: 'kay . user interface: yep . industrial designer: i 'm sure we 'll be busy . user interface: project manager: mm 'kay um i 'll type up mi minutes and probably email those out to all of you . um just including all the things that we talked about . um . user interface: okay . can you e-mail your slides as well ? is that possible ? project manager: yes , i yes , i think i can . mm-hmm . user interface: cool project manager: i 'll just attach it to an email . and you 're you 're number two , industrial designer: i 'm two . project manager: three , four ? marketing: i 'm four . project manager: is that correct ? okay . industrial designer: alright . project manager: excellent . it was lovely meeting you all . user interface: 'kay project manager: just make sure you keep checking the company web site and the emails . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: let me see if i can do that right now .

marketing was tired of too many buttons with different functions separately , but yet he doubted whether combining all different remotes together was necessary because he felt it ended up with multimedia overload . user interface thought remote controls were pretty nice but could be a bit annoying because users did n't have to get up and walk across the room to change a channel . however , three separate remote controls with too many buttons for tv could be confusing and complicated . industrial designer agreed with having too many remotes around .

what did industrial designer propose in the discussion about remote control style ? </s> industrial designer: marketing: project manager: marketing: hmm . project manager: okay . good morning everybody . um i 'm glad you could all come . i 'm really excited to start this team . um i 'm just gon na have a little powerpoint presentation for us , for our kick-off meeting . my name is rose lindgren . i i 'll be the project manager . um our agenda today is we are gon na do a little opening and then i 'm gon na talk a little bit about the project , then we 'll move into acquaintance such as getting to know each other a little bit , including a tool training exercise . and then we 'll move into the project plan , do a little discussion and close , since we only have twenty five minutes . first of all our project aim . um we are creating a new remote control which we have three goals about , it needs to be original , trendy and user-friendly . i 'm hoping that we can all work together to achieve all three of those . um so we 're gon na divide us up into three compa three parts . first the functional design which will be uh first we 'll do individual work , come into a meeting , the conceptional design , individual work and a meeting , and then the detailed design , individual work and a meeting . so that we 'll each be doing our own ideas and then coming together and um collaborating . okay , we 're gon na get to know each other a little bit . so um , what we 're gon na do is start off with um let 's start off with amina . um alima , industrial designer: alima . project manager: sorry , alima . industrial designer: project manager: um we 're gon na do a little tool training , so we are gon na work with that whiteboard behind you . um introduce yourself , um say one thing about yourself and then draw your favourite animal and tell us about it . industrial designer: okay . um i do n't know which one of these i have to bring with me . project manager: probably both . industrial designer: right , so , i 'm supposed to draw my favourite animal . i have no drawing skills whatsoever . but uh let 's see , introduce myself . my name is alima bucciantini . um i 'm from the state of maine in the us . i 'm doing nationalism studies , blah , blah , blah , and i have no artistic talents . project manager: how do you spell your name ? industrial designer: a_ l_ i_ m_ a_ . project manager: thanks . industrial designer: oh , and i guess i 'm the industrial designer on this project . so let 's see if i can get marketing: industrial designer: um here . i will draw a little turtle for you all . not necessarily 'cause it 's my absolute favourite animal , but just that i think they 're drawable . and you have the pretty little shell going on . some little eyes . happy . there you go . that 's a turtle . marketing: yes . project manager: so what are your favourite characteristics ? industrial designer: um . i i like the whole having a shell thing . project manager: mm . industrial designer: it 's quite cool carry your home around where you go , um quite decorative little animals , they can swim , they can , they 're very adaptable , they carry everything they need with them , um and they 're easy to draw . project manager: excellent . user interface: project manager: shall we just go around the table ? user interface: uh okay . well , my name is iain uh project manager: mm . user interface: and i 'm the user interface designer for the project . um . and i 'll try and draw my favourite animal . industrial designer: no , user interface: i 'll i should leave that one on there industrial designer: you can erase the turtle , user interface: should n't i before i callously rub it off . industrial designer: it 's alright . project manager: might be nice to have them all up there at same time . user interface: um i 'm not gon na draw it quite to scale um . industrial designer: user interface: is that at least identifiable ? industrial designer: snake . marketing: well . project manager: em industrial designer: well , user interface: it 's a whale , yes . industrial designer: snake ? it 's w user interface: thanks . marketing: oh my god , it 's better than what i 'm gon na be able to do . user interface: um and , yeah , the reason i like whales is 'cause uh they 're well , first of all they 're quite intelligent um and also they 're they 're kind of mysterious , like we do n't really know much about them or or understand how they work , how they form groups . and i just find them interesting animals . marketing: take my contraptions with me . alright , i 'm jessy . i 'm from around d_c_ ish sort of in the u_s_ . and we 're gon na keep the deep sea sort of theme going on , animal . do n't really know how to draw this . just where can i mm . mm . maybe if i do the water , industrial designer: marketing: but how ? sort of give an idea . i have no idea how one would explain this . mm maybe with some whiskers . briefly , it 's supposed to be a seal . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: you can imagine it in the water . i like them , because they are like playful and silly sort of have a good time . not gon na try and pretend like i can get any better than that . project manager: mm 'kay . mm 'kay ? i 'm rose and i 'm project manager , from california . um . hmm . s industrial designer: oh , marketing: it 's definitely significantly harder once you are doing it . industrial designer: a cat . project manager: um it 's actually a coyote . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: let 's see . let 's see , industrial designer: right . marketing: that 's impressive . project manager: let 's give it a little bit of a snout , i do n't know , some teeth . industrial designer: that 's project manager: yeah . industrial designer: that 's pretty impressive . user interface: cool . project manager: oh dear . yes . industrial designer: project manager: i live um i live right across the street from an open space in california . we have coyotes howl all the time . so i really enjoy their their singing , you they 're really beautiful animals . mm . okay um , moving on to slightly more serious stuff . we 're gon na talk about project finances . um we have a couple we 'd like to sell it for about twenty five euro with the profit aim of um fifteen million euro um from our sales and because this is such this is for television it 's a we have a market range of internet , like it 's an international market range , we do n't have to worry about specifics . um in order to make a profit of this magnitude , we need to um be able to produce each one at a maximum of twelve fifty euro . so we 're selling it for twice what we 'd like to produce it for . okay um , just to generate a little bit of discussion about the project um , i could i 'd like to hear about your experiences using ro remote controls , um your first ideas about um creating a new r remote control , what would be the best um like you what are the features that you really like what are the features that you do n't like , etcetera , so marketing: um i hate when there 's like four different buttons and you have to press to actually turn on the tv like you have to do one for the power of the tv and then like another one to get the actual screen on and something else to get it all going , i do n't know . now they keep combining all different remotes together , and i do n't know if i necessarily like that 'cause i feel like you end up with multimedia overload . user interface: marketing: i just wan na watch the tv um . project manager: hmm . marketing: always gets lost . some sort of like device to help you find it . user interface: i 've used , i 've used remote controls , for things like tv and the c_d_ player and video recorder and i i guess they 're they 're pretty neat neat little tools uh . you do n't have to get up and walk across the room to change a channel . project manager: mm . user interface: so especially if you 're someone really lazy like me they they 're pretty nice . um . i find them they can be a bit annoying , especially , like you know if i 'm watching tv i have have to have three separate remote controls of in front of me , you know , one for the tv , one for the digital box , one for m the video recorder as well . um . and also they tend to they tend to be a bit confusing , they 've got too many buttons on them uh too too sort of too sort of complicated when all i really wan na do is switch on and off , change the channel , change the volume . industrial designer: yeah um . i agree with having too many remotes around . my dad has a whole drawer at home of remotes for various things , and i do n't know how to work half of them um . what 's important for me , i guess , is that it 's easy to use and that there 's not too many buttons , they are not too small , you know you know you need to n to know what you 're doing . and one thing i particularly like is if you are not um sort of moving it around to get it to work with the infra-red . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um , i think there is a way around that , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but i know in my residence right now the the television you sort of have to walk all around the room to get it to turn on , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so i it 's just simpler just to just turn around the tv itself , and i think that 's if we 're gon na make a remote control , it should actually work for what it 's doing . so marketing: what about like batteries and things like that , like are there some remotes that don do n't require like batteries or do all remotes require batteries ? project manager: um i would imagine all of them , industrial designer: i know . project manager: but we could but it 's possible we could use like a lithium battery um that would last a lot longer than like double a_s . industrial designer: yeah , something that does n't marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um like tho those are the batteries that are used in a lot of um m_p_ three players now and that kind of thing . um . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um . okay , it seems we have a little bit of a conflict over um to uh combining all the remotes cont together versus having f five different remotes . so um like you said you do n't like having all the buttons on one on one remote , and yet you do n't wan na have five remotes . so how do we work with that ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: could we get something that just has no does n't have all the buttons that you need to program the video recorder or program s other things that i 'm not very coherent about , but that just has your major buttons for that work for everything , you know volume control , on , off , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: channel changing . marketing: and maybe that spatially divides it , so it 's like if you 're looki if you 're trying to get the tv on that 's , you know , like the top thing on the remote , i dunno if d be vertical or horizontal in terms of how we 're gon na make it , but if it 's like all the tv stuff was here , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: then all the v_c_r_ stuff was here , all the whatever else we have programmed into it it 's all just in its separate place and not like all the on buttons together , project manager: mm . industrial designer: n that way yeah . marketing: 'cause then you like , i do n't even know what i 'm turning on . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yeah , and if um if you 'd save the more complicated functions maybe for separate remotes that you would n't need to use every day . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , so maybe have like one remote that has the main functions on , off , channel changing , volume , and another rote remote with all the special things . industrial designer: um . project manager: because that is one thing that um remotes tend to have buttons that the tvs no longer have as well . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so like you have to have them somewhere , industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'cause you 're gon na m need those special functions occasionally . um but not necessarily on the m the normal remote . industrial designer: right . user interface: can i ask , are we designing a remote control for a television only project manager: good question . user interface: um , and if if this device is just to be used for the television would we even technically be possible to include video recorder functions on it ? project manager: i do n't know that yet . user interface: um or should we just stick to just stick to having television television related buttons on it ? industrial designer: mm . project manager: it 's a good question . um . i 'll look into that . marketing: mm-hmm hmm . project manager: if i can . user interface: marketing: i think it 's just tv , i mean , if it if we 're taking it just new product a new television remote control that 's not like does n't say . industrial designer: mm yeah . marketing: you know , things might be more advanced than that . project manager: mm . user interface: so we should maybe we should assume that i t it 's just a television that we 're wanting to control . industrial designer: user interface: well , i mean i suppose it would be nice to have playing and record and stop buttons on it for the video recorder as well i i do n't know if that works technologically or not . industrial designer: yes . i guess we have to define what what we 're aiming for . if it 's just a television then that it 's a bit simpler , 'cause there 's less buttons that would even need to be on it . user interface: yeah . marketing: it 's an idea with the buttons being really . industrial designer: large . if you have older people or people like me that are n't very co-ordinated hand-eye , it 's really quite important that you are not pressing a small like teeny mobiles phone size buttons , if we can help it . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . 'kay sounds like we 've had a good little discussion for our first ideas . mind if we move on ? ps industrial designer: project manager: mm okay . user interface: 'kay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um now our next meeting starts in thirty minutes . i believe we 've actually been only working on this this one for about twenty , so we can continue discussing more new ideas if you 'd like um , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: but this is just a breakdown of what we 'll be doing individually . um the industrial design , alima will be doing um the working design . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um the user interface designer , that 's for . technical functions , i guess like keeping in mind the buttons thing , the size of the buttons . um user requirements um , so you 'll be hearing about different trends , uh about different things that people need , um i guess kind of the same uh discussion that we 've been having , we 'll get from the actual consum s consumers . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm 'kay um . and you will get specific instructions sent by your personal coach . i realised in this past one we we did n't have much , we just wanted to get a little brain-storming done . um so very exited to see all your animals and how what wonderful um artists we all are um . user interface: project manager: any questions ? industrial designer: user interface: what we 're gon na be discussing at the next meeting ? do we know that ? project manager: i have n't gotten an agenda yet , um i 'll put that together . i 'm sure as we 'll each get our own instruction user interface: right . project manager: and then um because what we gon na do is first our individual actions and then we 'll come back together . so i 'm sure we 'll all have more concrete things to contribute next time user interface: yep . industrial designer: 'kay . user interface: yep . industrial designer: i 'm sure we 'll be busy . user interface: project manager: mm 'kay um i 'll type up mi minutes and probably email those out to all of you . um just including all the things that we talked about . um . user interface: okay . can you e-mail your slides as well ? is that possible ? project manager: yes , i yes , i think i can . mm-hmm . user interface: cool project manager: i 'll just attach it to an email . and you 're you 're number two , industrial designer: i 'm two . project manager: three , four ? marketing: i 'm four . project manager: is that correct ? okay . industrial designer: alright . project manager: excellent . it was lovely meeting you all . user interface: 'kay project manager: just make sure you keep checking the company web site and the emails . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: let me see if i can do that right now .

industrial designer proposed that it 's important to use the remote control with ease . buttons , in the proper size , should n't be too many to confuse . he thought users were supposed to know what they were doing . and he was particularly interested in not moving the control around to get it to work with the infra-red . industrial designer also proposed that the remote control to be designed should work for what it 's doing .

summarize the decision of the discussion about the conflict over combining all the remotes content together versus having five different remotes . </s> industrial designer: marketing: project manager: marketing: hmm . project manager: okay . good morning everybody . um i 'm glad you could all come . i 'm really excited to start this team . um i 'm just gon na have a little powerpoint presentation for us , for our kick-off meeting . my name is rose lindgren . i i 'll be the project manager . um our agenda today is we are gon na do a little opening and then i 'm gon na talk a little bit about the project , then we 'll move into acquaintance such as getting to know each other a little bit , including a tool training exercise . and then we 'll move into the project plan , do a little discussion and close , since we only have twenty five minutes . first of all our project aim . um we are creating a new remote control which we have three goals about , it needs to be original , trendy and user-friendly . i 'm hoping that we can all work together to achieve all three of those . um so we 're gon na divide us up into three compa three parts . first the functional design which will be uh first we 'll do individual work , come into a meeting , the conceptional design , individual work and a meeting , and then the detailed design , individual work and a meeting . so that we 'll each be doing our own ideas and then coming together and um collaborating . okay , we 're gon na get to know each other a little bit . so um , what we 're gon na do is start off with um let 's start off with amina . um alima , industrial designer: alima . project manager: sorry , alima . industrial designer: project manager: um we 're gon na do a little tool training , so we are gon na work with that whiteboard behind you . um introduce yourself , um say one thing about yourself and then draw your favourite animal and tell us about it . industrial designer: okay . um i do n't know which one of these i have to bring with me . project manager: probably both . industrial designer: right , so , i 'm supposed to draw my favourite animal . i have no drawing skills whatsoever . but uh let 's see , introduce myself . my name is alima bucciantini . um i 'm from the state of maine in the us . i 'm doing nationalism studies , blah , blah , blah , and i have no artistic talents . project manager: how do you spell your name ? industrial designer: a_ l_ i_ m_ a_ . project manager: thanks . industrial designer: oh , and i guess i 'm the industrial designer on this project . so let 's see if i can get marketing: industrial designer: um here . i will draw a little turtle for you all . not necessarily 'cause it 's my absolute favourite animal , but just that i think they 're drawable . and you have the pretty little shell going on . some little eyes . happy . there you go . that 's a turtle . marketing: yes . project manager: so what are your favourite characteristics ? industrial designer: um . i i like the whole having a shell thing . project manager: mm . industrial designer: it 's quite cool carry your home around where you go , um quite decorative little animals , they can swim , they can , they 're very adaptable , they carry everything they need with them , um and they 're easy to draw . project manager: excellent . user interface: project manager: shall we just go around the table ? user interface: uh okay . well , my name is iain uh project manager: mm . user interface: and i 'm the user interface designer for the project . um . and i 'll try and draw my favourite animal . industrial designer: no , user interface: i 'll i should leave that one on there industrial designer: you can erase the turtle , user interface: should n't i before i callously rub it off . industrial designer: it 's alright . project manager: might be nice to have them all up there at same time . user interface: um i 'm not gon na draw it quite to scale um . industrial designer: user interface: is that at least identifiable ? industrial designer: snake . marketing: well . project manager: em industrial designer: well , user interface: it 's a whale , yes . industrial designer: snake ? it 's w user interface: thanks . marketing: oh my god , it 's better than what i 'm gon na be able to do . user interface: um and , yeah , the reason i like whales is 'cause uh they 're well , first of all they 're quite intelligent um and also they 're they 're kind of mysterious , like we do n't really know much about them or or understand how they work , how they form groups . and i just find them interesting animals . marketing: take my contraptions with me . alright , i 'm jessy . i 'm from around d_c_ ish sort of in the u_s_ . and we 're gon na keep the deep sea sort of theme going on , animal . do n't really know how to draw this . just where can i mm . mm . maybe if i do the water , industrial designer: marketing: but how ? sort of give an idea . i have no idea how one would explain this . mm maybe with some whiskers . briefly , it 's supposed to be a seal . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: you can imagine it in the water . i like them , because they are like playful and silly sort of have a good time . not gon na try and pretend like i can get any better than that . project manager: mm 'kay . mm 'kay ? i 'm rose and i 'm project manager , from california . um . hmm . s industrial designer: oh , marketing: it 's definitely significantly harder once you are doing it . industrial designer: a cat . project manager: um it 's actually a coyote . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: let 's see . let 's see , industrial designer: right . marketing: that 's impressive . project manager: let 's give it a little bit of a snout , i do n't know , some teeth . industrial designer: that 's project manager: yeah . industrial designer: that 's pretty impressive . user interface: cool . project manager: oh dear . yes . industrial designer: project manager: i live um i live right across the street from an open space in california . we have coyotes howl all the time . so i really enjoy their their singing , you they 're really beautiful animals . mm . okay um , moving on to slightly more serious stuff . we 're gon na talk about project finances . um we have a couple we 'd like to sell it for about twenty five euro with the profit aim of um fifteen million euro um from our sales and because this is such this is for television it 's a we have a market range of internet , like it 's an international market range , we do n't have to worry about specifics . um in order to make a profit of this magnitude , we need to um be able to produce each one at a maximum of twelve fifty euro . so we 're selling it for twice what we 'd like to produce it for . okay um , just to generate a little bit of discussion about the project um , i could i 'd like to hear about your experiences using ro remote controls , um your first ideas about um creating a new r remote control , what would be the best um like you what are the features that you really like what are the features that you do n't like , etcetera , so marketing: um i hate when there 's like four different buttons and you have to press to actually turn on the tv like you have to do one for the power of the tv and then like another one to get the actual screen on and something else to get it all going , i do n't know . now they keep combining all different remotes together , and i do n't know if i necessarily like that 'cause i feel like you end up with multimedia overload . user interface: marketing: i just wan na watch the tv um . project manager: hmm . marketing: always gets lost . some sort of like device to help you find it . user interface: i 've used , i 've used remote controls , for things like tv and the c_d_ player and video recorder and i i guess they 're they 're pretty neat neat little tools uh . you do n't have to get up and walk across the room to change a channel . project manager: mm . user interface: so especially if you 're someone really lazy like me they they 're pretty nice . um . i find them they can be a bit annoying , especially , like you know if i 'm watching tv i have have to have three separate remote controls of in front of me , you know , one for the tv , one for the digital box , one for m the video recorder as well . um . and also they tend to they tend to be a bit confusing , they 've got too many buttons on them uh too too sort of too sort of complicated when all i really wan na do is switch on and off , change the channel , change the volume . industrial designer: yeah um . i agree with having too many remotes around . my dad has a whole drawer at home of remotes for various things , and i do n't know how to work half of them um . what 's important for me , i guess , is that it 's easy to use and that there 's not too many buttons , they are not too small , you know you know you need to n to know what you 're doing . and one thing i particularly like is if you are not um sort of moving it around to get it to work with the infra-red . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um , i think there is a way around that , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but i know in my residence right now the the television you sort of have to walk all around the room to get it to turn on , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so i it 's just simpler just to just turn around the tv itself , and i think that 's if we 're gon na make a remote control , it should actually work for what it 's doing . so marketing: what about like batteries and things like that , like are there some remotes that don do n't require like batteries or do all remotes require batteries ? project manager: um i would imagine all of them , industrial designer: i know . project manager: but we could but it 's possible we could use like a lithium battery um that would last a lot longer than like double a_s . industrial designer: yeah , something that does n't marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um like tho those are the batteries that are used in a lot of um m_p_ three players now and that kind of thing . um . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um . okay , it seems we have a little bit of a conflict over um to uh combining all the remotes cont together versus having f five different remotes . so um like you said you do n't like having all the buttons on one on one remote , and yet you do n't wan na have five remotes . so how do we work with that ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: could we get something that just has no does n't have all the buttons that you need to program the video recorder or program s other things that i 'm not very coherent about , but that just has your major buttons for that work for everything , you know volume control , on , off , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: channel changing . marketing: and maybe that spatially divides it , so it 's like if you 're looki if you 're trying to get the tv on that 's , you know , like the top thing on the remote , i dunno if d be vertical or horizontal in terms of how we 're gon na make it , but if it 's like all the tv stuff was here , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: then all the v_c_r_ stuff was here , all the whatever else we have programmed into it it 's all just in its separate place and not like all the on buttons together , project manager: mm . industrial designer: n that way yeah . marketing: 'cause then you like , i do n't even know what i 'm turning on . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yeah , and if um if you 'd save the more complicated functions maybe for separate remotes that you would n't need to use every day . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , so maybe have like one remote that has the main functions on , off , channel changing , volume , and another rote remote with all the special things . industrial designer: um . project manager: because that is one thing that um remotes tend to have buttons that the tvs no longer have as well . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so like you have to have them somewhere , industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'cause you 're gon na m need those special functions occasionally . um but not necessarily on the m the normal remote . industrial designer: right . user interface: can i ask , are we designing a remote control for a television only project manager: good question . user interface: um , and if if this device is just to be used for the television would we even technically be possible to include video recorder functions on it ? project manager: i do n't know that yet . user interface: um or should we just stick to just stick to having television television related buttons on it ? industrial designer: mm . project manager: it 's a good question . um . i 'll look into that . marketing: mm-hmm hmm . project manager: if i can . user interface: marketing: i think it 's just tv , i mean , if it if we 're taking it just new product a new television remote control that 's not like does n't say . industrial designer: mm yeah . marketing: you know , things might be more advanced than that . project manager: mm . user interface: so we should maybe we should assume that i t it 's just a television that we 're wanting to control . industrial designer: user interface: well , i mean i suppose it would be nice to have playing and record and stop buttons on it for the video recorder as well i i do n't know if that works technologically or not . industrial designer: yes . i guess we have to define what what we 're aiming for . if it 's just a television then that it 's a bit simpler , 'cause there 's less buttons that would even need to be on it . user interface: yeah . marketing: it 's an idea with the buttons being really . industrial designer: large . if you have older people or people like me that are n't very co-ordinated hand-eye , it 's really quite important that you are not pressing a small like teeny mobiles phone size buttons , if we can help it . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . 'kay sounds like we 've had a good little discussion for our first ideas . mind if we move on ? ps industrial designer: project manager: mm okay . user interface: 'kay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um now our next meeting starts in thirty minutes . i believe we 've actually been only working on this this one for about twenty , so we can continue discussing more new ideas if you 'd like um , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: but this is just a breakdown of what we 'll be doing individually . um the industrial design , alima will be doing um the working design . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um the user interface designer , that 's for . technical functions , i guess like keeping in mind the buttons thing , the size of the buttons . um user requirements um , so you 'll be hearing about different trends , uh about different things that people need , um i guess kind of the same uh discussion that we 've been having , we 'll get from the actual consum s consumers . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm 'kay um . and you will get specific instructions sent by your personal coach . i realised in this past one we we did n't have much , we just wanted to get a little brain-storming done . um so very exited to see all your animals and how what wonderful um artists we all are um . user interface: project manager: any questions ? industrial designer: user interface: what we 're gon na be discussing at the next meeting ? do we know that ? project manager: i have n't gotten an agenda yet , um i 'll put that together . i 'm sure as we 'll each get our own instruction user interface: right . project manager: and then um because what we gon na do is first our individual actions and then we 'll come back together . so i 'm sure we 'll all have more concrete things to contribute next time user interface: yep . industrial designer: 'kay . user interface: yep . industrial designer: i 'm sure we 'll be busy . user interface: project manager: mm 'kay um i 'll type up mi minutes and probably email those out to all of you . um just including all the things that we talked about . um . user interface: okay . can you e-mail your slides as well ? is that possible ? project manager: yes , i yes , i think i can . mm-hmm . user interface: cool project manager: i 'll just attach it to an email . and you 're you 're number two , industrial designer: i 'm two . project manager: three , four ? marketing: i 'm four . project manager: is that correct ? okay . industrial designer: alright . project manager: excellent . it was lovely meeting you all . user interface: 'kay project manager: just make sure you keep checking the company web site and the emails . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: let me see if i can do that right now .

have one remote that has the main functions such as turning on , turning off , channel changing , volume ; and another remote with all the special things .

what did the group discuss about the object of the remote control ? </s> industrial designer: marketing: project manager: marketing: hmm . project manager: okay . good morning everybody . um i 'm glad you could all come . i 'm really excited to start this team . um i 'm just gon na have a little powerpoint presentation for us , for our kick-off meeting . my name is rose lindgren . i i 'll be the project manager . um our agenda today is we are gon na do a little opening and then i 'm gon na talk a little bit about the project , then we 'll move into acquaintance such as getting to know each other a little bit , including a tool training exercise . and then we 'll move into the project plan , do a little discussion and close , since we only have twenty five minutes . first of all our project aim . um we are creating a new remote control which we have three goals about , it needs to be original , trendy and user-friendly . i 'm hoping that we can all work together to achieve all three of those . um so we 're gon na divide us up into three compa three parts . first the functional design which will be uh first we 'll do individual work , come into a meeting , the conceptional design , individual work and a meeting , and then the detailed design , individual work and a meeting . so that we 'll each be doing our own ideas and then coming together and um collaborating . okay , we 're gon na get to know each other a little bit . so um , what we 're gon na do is start off with um let 's start off with amina . um alima , industrial designer: alima . project manager: sorry , alima . industrial designer: project manager: um we 're gon na do a little tool training , so we are gon na work with that whiteboard behind you . um introduce yourself , um say one thing about yourself and then draw your favourite animal and tell us about it . industrial designer: okay . um i do n't know which one of these i have to bring with me . project manager: probably both . industrial designer: right , so , i 'm supposed to draw my favourite animal . i have no drawing skills whatsoever . but uh let 's see , introduce myself . my name is alima bucciantini . um i 'm from the state of maine in the us . i 'm doing nationalism studies , blah , blah , blah , and i have no artistic talents . project manager: how do you spell your name ? industrial designer: a_ l_ i_ m_ a_ . project manager: thanks . industrial designer: oh , and i guess i 'm the industrial designer on this project . so let 's see if i can get marketing: industrial designer: um here . i will draw a little turtle for you all . not necessarily 'cause it 's my absolute favourite animal , but just that i think they 're drawable . and you have the pretty little shell going on . some little eyes . happy . there you go . that 's a turtle . marketing: yes . project manager: so what are your favourite characteristics ? industrial designer: um . i i like the whole having a shell thing . project manager: mm . industrial designer: it 's quite cool carry your home around where you go , um quite decorative little animals , they can swim , they can , they 're very adaptable , they carry everything they need with them , um and they 're easy to draw . project manager: excellent . user interface: project manager: shall we just go around the table ? user interface: uh okay . well , my name is iain uh project manager: mm . user interface: and i 'm the user interface designer for the project . um . and i 'll try and draw my favourite animal . industrial designer: no , user interface: i 'll i should leave that one on there industrial designer: you can erase the turtle , user interface: should n't i before i callously rub it off . industrial designer: it 's alright . project manager: might be nice to have them all up there at same time . user interface: um i 'm not gon na draw it quite to scale um . industrial designer: user interface: is that at least identifiable ? industrial designer: snake . marketing: well . project manager: em industrial designer: well , user interface: it 's a whale , yes . industrial designer: snake ? it 's w user interface: thanks . marketing: oh my god , it 's better than what i 'm gon na be able to do . user interface: um and , yeah , the reason i like whales is 'cause uh they 're well , first of all they 're quite intelligent um and also they 're they 're kind of mysterious , like we do n't really know much about them or or understand how they work , how they form groups . and i just find them interesting animals . marketing: take my contraptions with me . alright , i 'm jessy . i 'm from around d_c_ ish sort of in the u_s_ . and we 're gon na keep the deep sea sort of theme going on , animal . do n't really know how to draw this . just where can i mm . mm . maybe if i do the water , industrial designer: marketing: but how ? sort of give an idea . i have no idea how one would explain this . mm maybe with some whiskers . briefly , it 's supposed to be a seal . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: you can imagine it in the water . i like them , because they are like playful and silly sort of have a good time . not gon na try and pretend like i can get any better than that . project manager: mm 'kay . mm 'kay ? i 'm rose and i 'm project manager , from california . um . hmm . s industrial designer: oh , marketing: it 's definitely significantly harder once you are doing it . industrial designer: a cat . project manager: um it 's actually a coyote . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: let 's see . let 's see , industrial designer: right . marketing: that 's impressive . project manager: let 's give it a little bit of a snout , i do n't know , some teeth . industrial designer: that 's project manager: yeah . industrial designer: that 's pretty impressive . user interface: cool . project manager: oh dear . yes . industrial designer: project manager: i live um i live right across the street from an open space in california . we have coyotes howl all the time . so i really enjoy their their singing , you they 're really beautiful animals . mm . okay um , moving on to slightly more serious stuff . we 're gon na talk about project finances . um we have a couple we 'd like to sell it for about twenty five euro with the profit aim of um fifteen million euro um from our sales and because this is such this is for television it 's a we have a market range of internet , like it 's an international market range , we do n't have to worry about specifics . um in order to make a profit of this magnitude , we need to um be able to produce each one at a maximum of twelve fifty euro . so we 're selling it for twice what we 'd like to produce it for . okay um , just to generate a little bit of discussion about the project um , i could i 'd like to hear about your experiences using ro remote controls , um your first ideas about um creating a new r remote control , what would be the best um like you what are the features that you really like what are the features that you do n't like , etcetera , so marketing: um i hate when there 's like four different buttons and you have to press to actually turn on the tv like you have to do one for the power of the tv and then like another one to get the actual screen on and something else to get it all going , i do n't know . now they keep combining all different remotes together , and i do n't know if i necessarily like that 'cause i feel like you end up with multimedia overload . user interface: marketing: i just wan na watch the tv um . project manager: hmm . marketing: always gets lost . some sort of like device to help you find it . user interface: i 've used , i 've used remote controls , for things like tv and the c_d_ player and video recorder and i i guess they 're they 're pretty neat neat little tools uh . you do n't have to get up and walk across the room to change a channel . project manager: mm . user interface: so especially if you 're someone really lazy like me they they 're pretty nice . um . i find them they can be a bit annoying , especially , like you know if i 'm watching tv i have have to have three separate remote controls of in front of me , you know , one for the tv , one for the digital box , one for m the video recorder as well . um . and also they tend to they tend to be a bit confusing , they 've got too many buttons on them uh too too sort of too sort of complicated when all i really wan na do is switch on and off , change the channel , change the volume . industrial designer: yeah um . i agree with having too many remotes around . my dad has a whole drawer at home of remotes for various things , and i do n't know how to work half of them um . what 's important for me , i guess , is that it 's easy to use and that there 's not too many buttons , they are not too small , you know you know you need to n to know what you 're doing . and one thing i particularly like is if you are not um sort of moving it around to get it to work with the infra-red . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um , i think there is a way around that , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but i know in my residence right now the the television you sort of have to walk all around the room to get it to turn on , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so i it 's just simpler just to just turn around the tv itself , and i think that 's if we 're gon na make a remote control , it should actually work for what it 's doing . so marketing: what about like batteries and things like that , like are there some remotes that don do n't require like batteries or do all remotes require batteries ? project manager: um i would imagine all of them , industrial designer: i know . project manager: but we could but it 's possible we could use like a lithium battery um that would last a lot longer than like double a_s . industrial designer: yeah , something that does n't marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um like tho those are the batteries that are used in a lot of um m_p_ three players now and that kind of thing . um . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um . okay , it seems we have a little bit of a conflict over um to uh combining all the remotes cont together versus having f five different remotes . so um like you said you do n't like having all the buttons on one on one remote , and yet you do n't wan na have five remotes . so how do we work with that ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: could we get something that just has no does n't have all the buttons that you need to program the video recorder or program s other things that i 'm not very coherent about , but that just has your major buttons for that work for everything , you know volume control , on , off , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: channel changing . marketing: and maybe that spatially divides it , so it 's like if you 're looki if you 're trying to get the tv on that 's , you know , like the top thing on the remote , i dunno if d be vertical or horizontal in terms of how we 're gon na make it , but if it 's like all the tv stuff was here , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: then all the v_c_r_ stuff was here , all the whatever else we have programmed into it it 's all just in its separate place and not like all the on buttons together , project manager: mm . industrial designer: n that way yeah . marketing: 'cause then you like , i do n't even know what i 'm turning on . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yeah , and if um if you 'd save the more complicated functions maybe for separate remotes that you would n't need to use every day . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , so maybe have like one remote that has the main functions on , off , channel changing , volume , and another rote remote with all the special things . industrial designer: um . project manager: because that is one thing that um remotes tend to have buttons that the tvs no longer have as well . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so like you have to have them somewhere , industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'cause you 're gon na m need those special functions occasionally . um but not necessarily on the m the normal remote . industrial designer: right . user interface: can i ask , are we designing a remote control for a television only project manager: good question . user interface: um , and if if this device is just to be used for the television would we even technically be possible to include video recorder functions on it ? project manager: i do n't know that yet . user interface: um or should we just stick to just stick to having television television related buttons on it ? industrial designer: mm . project manager: it 's a good question . um . i 'll look into that . marketing: mm-hmm hmm . project manager: if i can . user interface: marketing: i think it 's just tv , i mean , if it if we 're taking it just new product a new television remote control that 's not like does n't say . industrial designer: mm yeah . marketing: you know , things might be more advanced than that . project manager: mm . user interface: so we should maybe we should assume that i t it 's just a television that we 're wanting to control . industrial designer: user interface: well , i mean i suppose it would be nice to have playing and record and stop buttons on it for the video recorder as well i i do n't know if that works technologically or not . industrial designer: yes . i guess we have to define what what we 're aiming for . if it 's just a television then that it 's a bit simpler , 'cause there 's less buttons that would even need to be on it . user interface: yeah . marketing: it 's an idea with the buttons being really . industrial designer: large . if you have older people or people like me that are n't very co-ordinated hand-eye , it 's really quite important that you are not pressing a small like teeny mobiles phone size buttons , if we can help it . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . 'kay sounds like we 've had a good little discussion for our first ideas . mind if we move on ? ps industrial designer: project manager: mm okay . user interface: 'kay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um now our next meeting starts in thirty minutes . i believe we 've actually been only working on this this one for about twenty , so we can continue discussing more new ideas if you 'd like um , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: but this is just a breakdown of what we 'll be doing individually . um the industrial design , alima will be doing um the working design . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um the user interface designer , that 's for . technical functions , i guess like keeping in mind the buttons thing , the size of the buttons . um user requirements um , so you 'll be hearing about different trends , uh about different things that people need , um i guess kind of the same uh discussion that we 've been having , we 'll get from the actual consum s consumers . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm 'kay um . and you will get specific instructions sent by your personal coach . i realised in this past one we we did n't have much , we just wanted to get a little brain-storming done . um so very exited to see all your animals and how what wonderful um artists we all are um . user interface: project manager: any questions ? industrial designer: user interface: what we 're gon na be discussing at the next meeting ? do we know that ? project manager: i have n't gotten an agenda yet , um i 'll put that together . i 'm sure as we 'll each get our own instruction user interface: right . project manager: and then um because what we gon na do is first our individual actions and then we 'll come back together . so i 'm sure we 'll all have more concrete things to contribute next time user interface: yep . industrial designer: 'kay . user interface: yep . industrial designer: i 'm sure we 'll be busy . user interface: project manager: mm 'kay um i 'll type up mi minutes and probably email those out to all of you . um just including all the things that we talked about . um . user interface: okay . can you e-mail your slides as well ? is that possible ? project manager: yes , i yes , i think i can . mm-hmm . user interface: cool project manager: i 'll just attach it to an email . and you 're you 're number two , industrial designer: i 'm two . project manager: three , four ? marketing: i 'm four . project manager: is that correct ? okay . industrial designer: alright . project manager: excellent . it was lovely meeting you all . user interface: 'kay project manager: just make sure you keep checking the company web site and the emails . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: let me see if i can do that right now .

marketing thought they should design a remote control for television only due to the issue of advancement . user interface supposed that it would be nice to have playing and recording and stop buttons on remote controls for the video recorder as well , but he did n't know if that worked technologically . industrial designer agreed to define the object of remote control , and he proposed that it would be simpler if it 's just for television because there were fewer buttons , which would benefit older people or people that were n't very co-ordinated hand-eye .

what 's the advantage of designing a remote control for television only ? </s> industrial designer: marketing: project manager: marketing: hmm . project manager: okay . good morning everybody . um i 'm glad you could all come . i 'm really excited to start this team . um i 'm just gon na have a little powerpoint presentation for us , for our kick-off meeting . my name is rose lindgren . i i 'll be the project manager . um our agenda today is we are gon na do a little opening and then i 'm gon na talk a little bit about the project , then we 'll move into acquaintance such as getting to know each other a little bit , including a tool training exercise . and then we 'll move into the project plan , do a little discussion and close , since we only have twenty five minutes . first of all our project aim . um we are creating a new remote control which we have three goals about , it needs to be original , trendy and user-friendly . i 'm hoping that we can all work together to achieve all three of those . um so we 're gon na divide us up into three compa three parts . first the functional design which will be uh first we 'll do individual work , come into a meeting , the conceptional design , individual work and a meeting , and then the detailed design , individual work and a meeting . so that we 'll each be doing our own ideas and then coming together and um collaborating . okay , we 're gon na get to know each other a little bit . so um , what we 're gon na do is start off with um let 's start off with amina . um alima , industrial designer: alima . project manager: sorry , alima . industrial designer: project manager: um we 're gon na do a little tool training , so we are gon na work with that whiteboard behind you . um introduce yourself , um say one thing about yourself and then draw your favourite animal and tell us about it . industrial designer: okay . um i do n't know which one of these i have to bring with me . project manager: probably both . industrial designer: right , so , i 'm supposed to draw my favourite animal . i have no drawing skills whatsoever . but uh let 's see , introduce myself . my name is alima bucciantini . um i 'm from the state of maine in the us . i 'm doing nationalism studies , blah , blah , blah , and i have no artistic talents . project manager: how do you spell your name ? industrial designer: a_ l_ i_ m_ a_ . project manager: thanks . industrial designer: oh , and i guess i 'm the industrial designer on this project . so let 's see if i can get marketing: industrial designer: um here . i will draw a little turtle for you all . not necessarily 'cause it 's my absolute favourite animal , but just that i think they 're drawable . and you have the pretty little shell going on . some little eyes . happy . there you go . that 's a turtle . marketing: yes . project manager: so what are your favourite characteristics ? industrial designer: um . i i like the whole having a shell thing . project manager: mm . industrial designer: it 's quite cool carry your home around where you go , um quite decorative little animals , they can swim , they can , they 're very adaptable , they carry everything they need with them , um and they 're easy to draw . project manager: excellent . user interface: project manager: shall we just go around the table ? user interface: uh okay . well , my name is iain uh project manager: mm . user interface: and i 'm the user interface designer for the project . um . and i 'll try and draw my favourite animal . industrial designer: no , user interface: i 'll i should leave that one on there industrial designer: you can erase the turtle , user interface: should n't i before i callously rub it off . industrial designer: it 's alright . project manager: might be nice to have them all up there at same time . user interface: um i 'm not gon na draw it quite to scale um . industrial designer: user interface: is that at least identifiable ? industrial designer: snake . marketing: well . project manager: em industrial designer: well , user interface: it 's a whale , yes . industrial designer: snake ? it 's w user interface: thanks . marketing: oh my god , it 's better than what i 'm gon na be able to do . user interface: um and , yeah , the reason i like whales is 'cause uh they 're well , first of all they 're quite intelligent um and also they 're they 're kind of mysterious , like we do n't really know much about them or or understand how they work , how they form groups . and i just find them interesting animals . marketing: take my contraptions with me . alright , i 'm jessy . i 'm from around d_c_ ish sort of in the u_s_ . and we 're gon na keep the deep sea sort of theme going on , animal . do n't really know how to draw this . just where can i mm . mm . maybe if i do the water , industrial designer: marketing: but how ? sort of give an idea . i have no idea how one would explain this . mm maybe with some whiskers . briefly , it 's supposed to be a seal . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: you can imagine it in the water . i like them , because they are like playful and silly sort of have a good time . not gon na try and pretend like i can get any better than that . project manager: mm 'kay . mm 'kay ? i 'm rose and i 'm project manager , from california . um . hmm . s industrial designer: oh , marketing: it 's definitely significantly harder once you are doing it . industrial designer: a cat . project manager: um it 's actually a coyote . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: let 's see . let 's see , industrial designer: right . marketing: that 's impressive . project manager: let 's give it a little bit of a snout , i do n't know , some teeth . industrial designer: that 's project manager: yeah . industrial designer: that 's pretty impressive . user interface: cool . project manager: oh dear . yes . industrial designer: project manager: i live um i live right across the street from an open space in california . we have coyotes howl all the time . so i really enjoy their their singing , you they 're really beautiful animals . mm . okay um , moving on to slightly more serious stuff . we 're gon na talk about project finances . um we have a couple we 'd like to sell it for about twenty five euro with the profit aim of um fifteen million euro um from our sales and because this is such this is for television it 's a we have a market range of internet , like it 's an international market range , we do n't have to worry about specifics . um in order to make a profit of this magnitude , we need to um be able to produce each one at a maximum of twelve fifty euro . so we 're selling it for twice what we 'd like to produce it for . okay um , just to generate a little bit of discussion about the project um , i could i 'd like to hear about your experiences using ro remote controls , um your first ideas about um creating a new r remote control , what would be the best um like you what are the features that you really like what are the features that you do n't like , etcetera , so marketing: um i hate when there 's like four different buttons and you have to press to actually turn on the tv like you have to do one for the power of the tv and then like another one to get the actual screen on and something else to get it all going , i do n't know . now they keep combining all different remotes together , and i do n't know if i necessarily like that 'cause i feel like you end up with multimedia overload . user interface: marketing: i just wan na watch the tv um . project manager: hmm . marketing: always gets lost . some sort of like device to help you find it . user interface: i 've used , i 've used remote controls , for things like tv and the c_d_ player and video recorder and i i guess they 're they 're pretty neat neat little tools uh . you do n't have to get up and walk across the room to change a channel . project manager: mm . user interface: so especially if you 're someone really lazy like me they they 're pretty nice . um . i find them they can be a bit annoying , especially , like you know if i 'm watching tv i have have to have three separate remote controls of in front of me , you know , one for the tv , one for the digital box , one for m the video recorder as well . um . and also they tend to they tend to be a bit confusing , they 've got too many buttons on them uh too too sort of too sort of complicated when all i really wan na do is switch on and off , change the channel , change the volume . industrial designer: yeah um . i agree with having too many remotes around . my dad has a whole drawer at home of remotes for various things , and i do n't know how to work half of them um . what 's important for me , i guess , is that it 's easy to use and that there 's not too many buttons , they are not too small , you know you know you need to n to know what you 're doing . and one thing i particularly like is if you are not um sort of moving it around to get it to work with the infra-red . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um , i think there is a way around that , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but i know in my residence right now the the television you sort of have to walk all around the room to get it to turn on , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so i it 's just simpler just to just turn around the tv itself , and i think that 's if we 're gon na make a remote control , it should actually work for what it 's doing . so marketing: what about like batteries and things like that , like are there some remotes that don do n't require like batteries or do all remotes require batteries ? project manager: um i would imagine all of them , industrial designer: i know . project manager: but we could but it 's possible we could use like a lithium battery um that would last a lot longer than like double a_s . industrial designer: yeah , something that does n't marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um like tho those are the batteries that are used in a lot of um m_p_ three players now and that kind of thing . um . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um . okay , it seems we have a little bit of a conflict over um to uh combining all the remotes cont together versus having f five different remotes . so um like you said you do n't like having all the buttons on one on one remote , and yet you do n't wan na have five remotes . so how do we work with that ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: could we get something that just has no does n't have all the buttons that you need to program the video recorder or program s other things that i 'm not very coherent about , but that just has your major buttons for that work for everything , you know volume control , on , off , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: channel changing . marketing: and maybe that spatially divides it , so it 's like if you 're looki if you 're trying to get the tv on that 's , you know , like the top thing on the remote , i dunno if d be vertical or horizontal in terms of how we 're gon na make it , but if it 's like all the tv stuff was here , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: then all the v_c_r_ stuff was here , all the whatever else we have programmed into it it 's all just in its separate place and not like all the on buttons together , project manager: mm . industrial designer: n that way yeah . marketing: 'cause then you like , i do n't even know what i 'm turning on . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yeah , and if um if you 'd save the more complicated functions maybe for separate remotes that you would n't need to use every day . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , so maybe have like one remote that has the main functions on , off , channel changing , volume , and another rote remote with all the special things . industrial designer: um . project manager: because that is one thing that um remotes tend to have buttons that the tvs no longer have as well . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so like you have to have them somewhere , industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'cause you 're gon na m need those special functions occasionally . um but not necessarily on the m the normal remote . industrial designer: right . user interface: can i ask , are we designing a remote control for a television only project manager: good question . user interface: um , and if if this device is just to be used for the television would we even technically be possible to include video recorder functions on it ? project manager: i do n't know that yet . user interface: um or should we just stick to just stick to having television television related buttons on it ? industrial designer: mm . project manager: it 's a good question . um . i 'll look into that . marketing: mm-hmm hmm . project manager: if i can . user interface: marketing: i think it 's just tv , i mean , if it if we 're taking it just new product a new television remote control that 's not like does n't say . industrial designer: mm yeah . marketing: you know , things might be more advanced than that . project manager: mm . user interface: so we should maybe we should assume that i t it 's just a television that we 're wanting to control . industrial designer: user interface: well , i mean i suppose it would be nice to have playing and record and stop buttons on it for the video recorder as well i i do n't know if that works technologically or not . industrial designer: yes . i guess we have to define what what we 're aiming for . if it 's just a television then that it 's a bit simpler , 'cause there 's less buttons that would even need to be on it . user interface: yeah . marketing: it 's an idea with the buttons being really . industrial designer: large . if you have older people or people like me that are n't very co-ordinated hand-eye , it 's really quite important that you are not pressing a small like teeny mobiles phone size buttons , if we can help it . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . 'kay sounds like we 've had a good little discussion for our first ideas . mind if we move on ? ps industrial designer: project manager: mm okay . user interface: 'kay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um now our next meeting starts in thirty minutes . i believe we 've actually been only working on this this one for about twenty , so we can continue discussing more new ideas if you 'd like um , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: but this is just a breakdown of what we 'll be doing individually . um the industrial design , alima will be doing um the working design . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um the user interface designer , that 's for . technical functions , i guess like keeping in mind the buttons thing , the size of the buttons . um user requirements um , so you 'll be hearing about different trends , uh about different things that people need , um i guess kind of the same uh discussion that we 've been having , we 'll get from the actual consum s consumers . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm 'kay um . and you will get specific instructions sent by your personal coach . i realised in this past one we we did n't have much , we just wanted to get a little brain-storming done . um so very exited to see all your animals and how what wonderful um artists we all are um . user interface: project manager: any questions ? industrial designer: user interface: what we 're gon na be discussing at the next meeting ? do we know that ? project manager: i have n't gotten an agenda yet , um i 'll put that together . i 'm sure as we 'll each get our own instruction user interface: right . project manager: and then um because what we gon na do is first our individual actions and then we 'll come back together . so i 'm sure we 'll all have more concrete things to contribute next time user interface: yep . industrial designer: 'kay . user interface: yep . industrial designer: i 'm sure we 'll be busy . user interface: project manager: mm 'kay um i 'll type up mi minutes and probably email those out to all of you . um just including all the things that we talked about . um . user interface: okay . can you e-mail your slides as well ? is that possible ? project manager: yes , i yes , i think i can . mm-hmm . user interface: cool project manager: i 'll just attach it to an email . and you 're you 're number two , industrial designer: i 'm two . project manager: three , four ? marketing: i 'm four . project manager: is that correct ? okay . industrial designer: alright . project manager: excellent . it was lovely meeting you all . user interface: 'kay project manager: just make sure you keep checking the company web site and the emails . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: let me see if i can do that right now .

it would be simpler if it 's just for television because there were fewer buttons , which would benefit older people or people that were n't very co-ordinated hand-eye .

summarize user interface 's opinions towards the object of remote control . </s> industrial designer: marketing: project manager: marketing: hmm . project manager: okay . good morning everybody . um i 'm glad you could all come . i 'm really excited to start this team . um i 'm just gon na have a little powerpoint presentation for us , for our kick-off meeting . my name is rose lindgren . i i 'll be the project manager . um our agenda today is we are gon na do a little opening and then i 'm gon na talk a little bit about the project , then we 'll move into acquaintance such as getting to know each other a little bit , including a tool training exercise . and then we 'll move into the project plan , do a little discussion and close , since we only have twenty five minutes . first of all our project aim . um we are creating a new remote control which we have three goals about , it needs to be original , trendy and user-friendly . i 'm hoping that we can all work together to achieve all three of those . um so we 're gon na divide us up into three compa three parts . first the functional design which will be uh first we 'll do individual work , come into a meeting , the conceptional design , individual work and a meeting , and then the detailed design , individual work and a meeting . so that we 'll each be doing our own ideas and then coming together and um collaborating . okay , we 're gon na get to know each other a little bit . so um , what we 're gon na do is start off with um let 's start off with amina . um alima , industrial designer: alima . project manager: sorry , alima . industrial designer: project manager: um we 're gon na do a little tool training , so we are gon na work with that whiteboard behind you . um introduce yourself , um say one thing about yourself and then draw your favourite animal and tell us about it . industrial designer: okay . um i do n't know which one of these i have to bring with me . project manager: probably both . industrial designer: right , so , i 'm supposed to draw my favourite animal . i have no drawing skills whatsoever . but uh let 's see , introduce myself . my name is alima bucciantini . um i 'm from the state of maine in the us . i 'm doing nationalism studies , blah , blah , blah , and i have no artistic talents . project manager: how do you spell your name ? industrial designer: a_ l_ i_ m_ a_ . project manager: thanks . industrial designer: oh , and i guess i 'm the industrial designer on this project . so let 's see if i can get marketing: industrial designer: um here . i will draw a little turtle for you all . not necessarily 'cause it 's my absolute favourite animal , but just that i think they 're drawable . and you have the pretty little shell going on . some little eyes . happy . there you go . that 's a turtle . marketing: yes . project manager: so what are your favourite characteristics ? industrial designer: um . i i like the whole having a shell thing . project manager: mm . industrial designer: it 's quite cool carry your home around where you go , um quite decorative little animals , they can swim , they can , they 're very adaptable , they carry everything they need with them , um and they 're easy to draw . project manager: excellent . user interface: project manager: shall we just go around the table ? user interface: uh okay . well , my name is iain uh project manager: mm . user interface: and i 'm the user interface designer for the project . um . and i 'll try and draw my favourite animal . industrial designer: no , user interface: i 'll i should leave that one on there industrial designer: you can erase the turtle , user interface: should n't i before i callously rub it off . industrial designer: it 's alright . project manager: might be nice to have them all up there at same time . user interface: um i 'm not gon na draw it quite to scale um . industrial designer: user interface: is that at least identifiable ? industrial designer: snake . marketing: well . project manager: em industrial designer: well , user interface: it 's a whale , yes . industrial designer: snake ? it 's w user interface: thanks . marketing: oh my god , it 's better than what i 'm gon na be able to do . user interface: um and , yeah , the reason i like whales is 'cause uh they 're well , first of all they 're quite intelligent um and also they 're they 're kind of mysterious , like we do n't really know much about them or or understand how they work , how they form groups . and i just find them interesting animals . marketing: take my contraptions with me . alright , i 'm jessy . i 'm from around d_c_ ish sort of in the u_s_ . and we 're gon na keep the deep sea sort of theme going on , animal . do n't really know how to draw this . just where can i mm . mm . maybe if i do the water , industrial designer: marketing: but how ? sort of give an idea . i have no idea how one would explain this . mm maybe with some whiskers . briefly , it 's supposed to be a seal . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: you can imagine it in the water . i like them , because they are like playful and silly sort of have a good time . not gon na try and pretend like i can get any better than that . project manager: mm 'kay . mm 'kay ? i 'm rose and i 'm project manager , from california . um . hmm . s industrial designer: oh , marketing: it 's definitely significantly harder once you are doing it . industrial designer: a cat . project manager: um it 's actually a coyote . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: let 's see . let 's see , industrial designer: right . marketing: that 's impressive . project manager: let 's give it a little bit of a snout , i do n't know , some teeth . industrial designer: that 's project manager: yeah . industrial designer: that 's pretty impressive . user interface: cool . project manager: oh dear . yes . industrial designer: project manager: i live um i live right across the street from an open space in california . we have coyotes howl all the time . so i really enjoy their their singing , you they 're really beautiful animals . mm . okay um , moving on to slightly more serious stuff . we 're gon na talk about project finances . um we have a couple we 'd like to sell it for about twenty five euro with the profit aim of um fifteen million euro um from our sales and because this is such this is for television it 's a we have a market range of internet , like it 's an international market range , we do n't have to worry about specifics . um in order to make a profit of this magnitude , we need to um be able to produce each one at a maximum of twelve fifty euro . so we 're selling it for twice what we 'd like to produce it for . okay um , just to generate a little bit of discussion about the project um , i could i 'd like to hear about your experiences using ro remote controls , um your first ideas about um creating a new r remote control , what would be the best um like you what are the features that you really like what are the features that you do n't like , etcetera , so marketing: um i hate when there 's like four different buttons and you have to press to actually turn on the tv like you have to do one for the power of the tv and then like another one to get the actual screen on and something else to get it all going , i do n't know . now they keep combining all different remotes together , and i do n't know if i necessarily like that 'cause i feel like you end up with multimedia overload . user interface: marketing: i just wan na watch the tv um . project manager: hmm . marketing: always gets lost . some sort of like device to help you find it . user interface: i 've used , i 've used remote controls , for things like tv and the c_d_ player and video recorder and i i guess they 're they 're pretty neat neat little tools uh . you do n't have to get up and walk across the room to change a channel . project manager: mm . user interface: so especially if you 're someone really lazy like me they they 're pretty nice . um . i find them they can be a bit annoying , especially , like you know if i 'm watching tv i have have to have three separate remote controls of in front of me , you know , one for the tv , one for the digital box , one for m the video recorder as well . um . and also they tend to they tend to be a bit confusing , they 've got too many buttons on them uh too too sort of too sort of complicated when all i really wan na do is switch on and off , change the channel , change the volume . industrial designer: yeah um . i agree with having too many remotes around . my dad has a whole drawer at home of remotes for various things , and i do n't know how to work half of them um . what 's important for me , i guess , is that it 's easy to use and that there 's not too many buttons , they are not too small , you know you know you need to n to know what you 're doing . and one thing i particularly like is if you are not um sort of moving it around to get it to work with the infra-red . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um , i think there is a way around that , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but i know in my residence right now the the television you sort of have to walk all around the room to get it to turn on , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so i it 's just simpler just to just turn around the tv itself , and i think that 's if we 're gon na make a remote control , it should actually work for what it 's doing . so marketing: what about like batteries and things like that , like are there some remotes that don do n't require like batteries or do all remotes require batteries ? project manager: um i would imagine all of them , industrial designer: i know . project manager: but we could but it 's possible we could use like a lithium battery um that would last a lot longer than like double a_s . industrial designer: yeah , something that does n't marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um like tho those are the batteries that are used in a lot of um m_p_ three players now and that kind of thing . um . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um . okay , it seems we have a little bit of a conflict over um to uh combining all the remotes cont together versus having f five different remotes . so um like you said you do n't like having all the buttons on one on one remote , and yet you do n't wan na have five remotes . so how do we work with that ? industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: could we get something that just has no does n't have all the buttons that you need to program the video recorder or program s other things that i 'm not very coherent about , but that just has your major buttons for that work for everything , you know volume control , on , off , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: channel changing . marketing: and maybe that spatially divides it , so it 's like if you 're looki if you 're trying to get the tv on that 's , you know , like the top thing on the remote , i dunno if d be vertical or horizontal in terms of how we 're gon na make it , but if it 's like all the tv stuff was here , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: then all the v_c_r_ stuff was here , all the whatever else we have programmed into it it 's all just in its separate place and not like all the on buttons together , project manager: mm . industrial designer: n that way yeah . marketing: 'cause then you like , i do n't even know what i 'm turning on . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yeah , and if um if you 'd save the more complicated functions maybe for separate remotes that you would n't need to use every day . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , so maybe have like one remote that has the main functions on , off , channel changing , volume , and another rote remote with all the special things . industrial designer: um . project manager: because that is one thing that um remotes tend to have buttons that the tvs no longer have as well . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so like you have to have them somewhere , industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'cause you 're gon na m need those special functions occasionally . um but not necessarily on the m the normal remote . industrial designer: right . user interface: can i ask , are we designing a remote control for a television only project manager: good question . user interface: um , and if if this device is just to be used for the television would we even technically be possible to include video recorder functions on it ? project manager: i do n't know that yet . user interface: um or should we just stick to just stick to having television television related buttons on it ? industrial designer: mm . project manager: it 's a good question . um . i 'll look into that . marketing: mm-hmm hmm . project manager: if i can . user interface: marketing: i think it 's just tv , i mean , if it if we 're taking it just new product a new television remote control that 's not like does n't say . industrial designer: mm yeah . marketing: you know , things might be more advanced than that . project manager: mm . user interface: so we should maybe we should assume that i t it 's just a television that we 're wanting to control . industrial designer: user interface: well , i mean i suppose it would be nice to have playing and record and stop buttons on it for the video recorder as well i i do n't know if that works technologically or not . industrial designer: yes . i guess we have to define what what we 're aiming for . if it 's just a television then that it 's a bit simpler , 'cause there 's less buttons that would even need to be on it . user interface: yeah . marketing: it 's an idea with the buttons being really . industrial designer: large . if you have older people or people like me that are n't very co-ordinated hand-eye , it 's really quite important that you are not pressing a small like teeny mobiles phone size buttons , if we can help it . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . 'kay sounds like we 've had a good little discussion for our first ideas . mind if we move on ? ps industrial designer: project manager: mm okay . user interface: 'kay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um now our next meeting starts in thirty minutes . i believe we 've actually been only working on this this one for about twenty , so we can continue discussing more new ideas if you 'd like um , industrial designer: hmm . project manager: but this is just a breakdown of what we 'll be doing individually . um the industrial design , alima will be doing um the working design . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um the user interface designer , that 's for . technical functions , i guess like keeping in mind the buttons thing , the size of the buttons . um user requirements um , so you 'll be hearing about different trends , uh about different things that people need , um i guess kind of the same uh discussion that we 've been having , we 'll get from the actual consum s consumers . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm 'kay um . and you will get specific instructions sent by your personal coach . i realised in this past one we we did n't have much , we just wanted to get a little brain-storming done . um so very exited to see all your animals and how what wonderful um artists we all are um . user interface: project manager: any questions ? industrial designer: user interface: what we 're gon na be discussing at the next meeting ? do we know that ? project manager: i have n't gotten an agenda yet , um i 'll put that together . i 'm sure as we 'll each get our own instruction user interface: right . project manager: and then um because what we gon na do is first our individual actions and then we 'll come back together . so i 'm sure we 'll all have more concrete things to contribute next time user interface: yep . industrial designer: 'kay . user interface: yep . industrial designer: i 'm sure we 'll be busy . user interface: project manager: mm 'kay um i 'll type up mi minutes and probably email those out to all of you . um just including all the things that we talked about . um . user interface: okay . can you e-mail your slides as well ? is that possible ? project manager: yes , i yes , i think i can . mm-hmm . user interface: cool project manager: i 'll just attach it to an email . and you 're you 're number two , industrial designer: i 'm two . project manager: three , four ? marketing: i 'm four . project manager: is that correct ? okay . industrial designer: alright . project manager: excellent . it was lovely meeting you all . user interface: 'kay project manager: just make sure you keep checking the company web site and the emails . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: let me see if i can do that right now .

user interface supposed that it would be nice to have playing and recording and stop buttons on remote controls for the video recorder as well , but he did n't know if that worked technologically .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: marketing: project manager: okay . good afternoon again . user interface: project manager: so we should have our final meeting about the detail designed of detail design of the product of the remote control . um so here is the agenda for today . uh uh just going to go quickly through the minutes of the last last uh meeting then we have a p presentation of prototype of you two , sounds interesting . and we 'll have um presentation of evaluation crit criteria by ou our marketing experts . then we 'll have to go through finance evaluation of the of the cost of the thing and um hopefully uh we should fit the target o tw of twelve point five uh uh euro . okay . so let 's go . uh if i go quickly through the minutes of the last meeting . so we went through th uh w we took this following decisions . no lcd , no speech recognition technology , okay , we went through a b to a banana look and feel for the remote control . we went through the use of wheels and but buttons . and also the use of a basis station for battery ch charging and uh also to um call the to call the mot mote remote control when it is lost . okay . um . good . so guys let this uh wonderful thing . industrial designer: okay so we can go to the slides . project manager: oh yeah . sorry . um . industrial designer: yeah . number three . oh number two sorry . project manager: which is industrial designer: so final design . final design . okay so michael you can go ahead . user interface: yeah so uh following our decision to uh make a yellow well to make a banana project manager: yeah can you show it to the the camera maybe . user interface: remote okay so we actually have a industrial designer: you can pull it out first , maybe . user interface: we 've well first first of all we made a an attractive base station uh with a banana leaf uh look and feel um and uh project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: bana sit the banana sits in there k you know nicely weighted so that it 's not gon na tip over and um this is the remote itself , it 's kind of it 's it 's ergonomic , it fits in the hand uh rather well . we 've got the two uh uh scroll wheels here which you know one on the the left for the uh volume and the one on the right for for the channel and uh underneath we have the uh the turbo button which is in like a nice uh trigger position for you know for pressing quite naturally . project manager: what 's the use uh of the t turbo button already ? user interface: this is when you when you uh are scrolling the uh through the channels you can tell it to to skip th past channels that you quickly rather th project manager: ah yeah yeah an then you stop when you stop it stops . user interface: yeah . well when you stop scrolling the wheel it stops . but normally with uh it will just uh s stay on each station briefly so you can see the the picture . industrial designer: uh project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: and we we do have one more functionality . if you take the banana as such and uh you press the turbo button , so it switch ons the switch ons the tv . user interface: the tv yeah . project manager: which one ? user interface: the s the turbo button . industrial designer: the turbo button . project manager: okay . user interface: so rather than having uh an extra button for um for the on off switch you just use the turbo button . industrial designer: additional button . marketing: what this button for ? user interface: this is a teletext button . so once you press that then you get teletext marketing: okay . user interface: and you can use the the channel selector scroll wheel as uh project manager: to navigate it through th through teletext . user interface: to navigate yeah . marketing: but if you want to go to page seven hundred ? industrial designer: that 's right , that 's right . user interface: yeah . project manager: with the wheel it 's easy . marketing: how man user interface: well then you can you you have like a little uh number selection thing , you press the the the teletext button uh to move between uh the fields and then you can just scroll the number back and forth so you have s you go you scroll to seven and then zero zero and then you can uh marketing: i do n't understand it . can you repeat it ? user interface: well you can you can press press the teletext button industrial designer: user interface: and then you then you can you can f industrial designer: so then then both the scroll buttons they are for teletext browsing . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and you can tele marketing: ah okay okay . okay . okay okay . industrial designer: yeah , user interface: mm uh industrial designer: once you press the teletext button then the scroll buttons they are more for teletext , they are no more for channel or vol volume . marketing: okay . i see . i see . okay . okay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and this is the uh the infrared uh port . industrial designer: that 's right . user interface: also the top of the banana . project manager: excellent . user interface: so . and then we have industrial designer: yeah . user interface: in the uh in the base station we have the the button at the front for uh for calling the uh the banana . project manager: calling . excellent . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and the the leaves plays the roles of of antennas ? user interface: actually they do . project manager: oh . user interface: that 's that 's yeah that 's uh that 's form and function in the one in the one uh object . industrial designer: yeah . so it always means , whatever the rays goes by they they get reflected and then you are having a better coverage . user interface: industrial designer: it 's like antennas . user interface: yeah . so . marketing: user interface: but yeah that 's um that 's just like that 's an attractive um base station . project manager: great . user interface: so . project manager: so , what else ? user interface: okay . industrial designer: and for the power source we are having solar cells and rechargeable batteries and this and uh the basis station is going to have the input from the mm power line for for charging the batteries . marketing: is it really weight ? is it light or industrial designer: it is very light . project manager: yeah , they 're light . user interface: it 's it 's uh it 's about the weight of a banana . marketing: okay . project manager: marketing: okay . user interface: you know , to give you the correct look and feel . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: ok industrial designer: and we have put these different colours so that people do n't mistake them mistake it as a banana . user interface: industrial designer: otherwise it 's you know a child comes and so marketing: okay . yeah yeah yeah , i see . i under i understand . user interface: i think a child would try to eat it anyway , so maybe we should industrial designer: yeah . user interface: consider that . maybe health and safety aspects . project manager: ah yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: industrial designer: oh we did n't think of that yet . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: so for the power source , apparently you still you you want to use both solar cells and batteries . industrial designer: oh yeah that 's right . project manager: uh you mean okay . so user interface: i do n't really know if the solar cells are actually necessary any more if you have a recharging base station . project manager: yeah , where are going to where are you are you going to place them ? industrial designer: mm-hmm mm-hmm . it 'll it 'll be always at top somewhere at there . user interface: if i was gon na place them i 'd put them on the on the top here since that 's like uh the black bit project manager: you have enough surface ? you user interface: but yeah i do n't i really do n't think it 's necessary to have the solar cells anymore . industrial designer: yeah because now we are having rechargeable batteries project manager: okay . user interface: mm . industrial designer: so that that is . project manager: what will be the autonomy ? roughly ? user interface: the what sorry ? project manager: the autonomy . autonomy . user interface: what do you mean ? project manager: uh i mean how long does i how how how long can it be held off a station ? marketing: how long the how long the bit the batteries long . user interface: ah . ah . a long time . project manager: yeah . a long user interface: no no no , industrial designer: eight to ten eight to ten hours . marketing: user interface: it can it should be weeks . industrial designer: n most no most of the time it 's not being used . project manager: yeah , so it 's user interface: yeah but y people do n't like to put it back in the base station all the time people leave wan na leave it on the couch so industrial designer: so when when you are making it on project manager: it 's used only when you industrial designer: mm . mm-hmm . no eight or eight or ten hours of working . user interface: ah , okay . industrial designer: if you are just leaving like that it 'll be much longer . user interface: okay . project manager: yeah . f weeks . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . that 's right . project manager: right . next slide ? industrial designer: yeah . and we are having the speakers regular chip for control . pricing is was a factor so that 's why we have gone for a regular chip only not the advanced chip . and uh that 's it . project manager: okay . okay . those really sounds very good . industrial designer: that 's right . project manager: nothing else to add ? user interface: it seems to be falling over . marketing: i l yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: i like i like it . maybe the the thing that convince me the less is the the multifunctional buttons . looks a bit industrial designer: you want to have more functional buttons ? marketing: looks a bit puzzled uh i dunno how to say that . industrial designer: you are not convinced . marketing: you the the b the buttons change h h their function depending if y it 's teletext or not industrial designer: not not many , we we want to keep it simple . so that this button fo is for teletext which is usually also the case , that usually there is a teletext button and once you press that , the channel buttons , they baco become the scrolling buttons . marketing: and the volume button will will become industrial designer: it 's up to you , means . project manager: well in fact b both will be could be useful , navigating through teletext . industrial designer: now that means let 's say this this can move the the larger digits and this can move the smaller digits . user interface: or can move between positions in the in the number . industrial designer: that 's right . project manager: yeah . marketing: and what about people who want to use digits ? butto real buttons ? project manager: wow . industrial designer: yeah . so there was there was a constraint that the surface area which we have on this banana on one side because of the shape . marketing: industrial designer: so we are targeting a segment which is which is just very trendy kind of thing , they they do n't care about the buttons any more . and anyway marketing: okay . because have you thought about configuration and all this kind of uh stuff ? user interface: it 's all automatic . marketing: it 's all automatic . user interface: yep . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: okay . okay yeah it 's fine . project manager: very good uh yeah marketing: w we are living in a wonderful world . project manager: you th yeah . user interface: uh . industrial designer: project manager: bananas everywhere . industrial designer: project manager: okay , so marketing: automatically configure . project manager: marketing: project manager: so we have to go through now evaluations . industrial designer: evalua yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so your slides are ready ? marketing: s project manager: uh you 're four i think . marketing: yeah . project manager: so this is one , which one is this one ? marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: okay . i i const i constructed a a list of criteria based on the on the general user requirements . and each criteria is will be evaluated it 's uh logical criteria so we must users must say i if it 's true or is or if it 's false in a in a scale ranging from zero to seven . industrial designer: why this strange factor of seven ? marketing: because i i 'm sorry . sorry . industrial designer: usually i have seen that scales are from one to ten . marketing: ah yeah . it 's from sorry , it 's from one to seven . it 's from from one to seven sorry . because it should be an even it should be an even uh scale , industrial designer: okay . project manager: num number industrial designer: okay . mm-hmm . marketing: and five is too short and nine is too long . industrial designer: okay . marketing: i 'm a i i 'm industrial designer: okay fine , got the idea . project manager: so to have in order to have enough granularity marketing: sorry ? project manager: it 's in order to have enough granularity in the evaluation . marketing: yeah yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: the variance is mi it 's is minimal . project manager: okay . industrial designer: okay , okay , great . marketing: i 'm um answering your question . industrial designer: okay . yeah yeah . marketing: okay . industrial designer: go ahead . marketing: and that 's the criteria i i found more useful . i think i sh i i could write the criteria in the on the whiteboard ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . sure . marketing: and we all four could range industrial designer: okay . yeah yeah . yeah . marketing: could evaluate the project manager: okay . marketing: industrial designer: so you can say fancy , handy . handy . marketing: okay let 's let 's evaluate if it 's fancy or industrial designer: yeah , it 's fancy , according to me . marketing: seven but user interface: project manager: yeah , six . industrial designer: project manager: s seven . industrial designer: seven . seven by me . project manager: six . marketing: i would say seven . industrial designer: okay . marketing: it 's quite fancy . industrial designer: so you can add seven plus six plus seven plus user interface: project manager: no , wait . user interface: yeah uh five . project manager: what do you say seven ? five ? industrial designer: five . user interface: five , maybe maybe maybe six it 's it 's i guess it 's project manager: okay , six point five . user interface: yeah . project manager: handy ? user interface: industrial designer: again i 'll give seven . project manager: seven . user interface: i 'd give it a six like i 'd i think it 's probably more handy than my current remote , 'cause of the scroll wheels marketing: six . industrial designer: yep . user interface: but maybe loses the point for not having you know the extra buttons when you reall if you do need them for some reason but you know you can always use your other remote . project manager: so seven , seven , industrial designer: seven for me . project manager: six , user interface: yeah . marketing: six . project manager: six point five . functional . user interface: industrial designer: i 'll give five . project manager: four . marketing: i would say project manager: industrial designer: user interface: well it depends when you say functional , do you mean it does what we want it to do , or d does what it does , you know , can it make you coffee ? marketing: everything ar project manager: uh for a remote control , does he have all the user interface: you know . marketing: mm everything user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: you could expect . marketing: it 's compared to the all industrial designer: that 's right . marketing: remote controls . user interface: that 's before industrial designer: that 's right . the standards . what is available in the market off the shelf . user interface: yeah . i have to say four . marketing: actually i do n't know what are the r the real specification of a of a universal remote contro user interface: well it 's not a universal remote . remember we 're focus we 're supposed to focus just on tvs . industrial designer: we marketing: ah it 's not an univer but it 's for all kind of tvs ? project manager: yeah . user interface: well all tvs but only t_ only tvs i guess . project manager: so it 's universal but for tvs . so s uh four ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: five . project manager: five ? user interface: four . project manager: four . marketing: four . four . industrial designer: so four point two ? user interface: just four . project manager: four . industrial designer: four . user interface: obviously there are some outliers so marketing: so four ? project manager: okay cool ? cool device . industrial designer: marketing: industrial designer: there i 'll give it seven . project manager: marketing: it means cool features , like new features actually . industrial designer: that 's right . user interface: which industrial designer: for a tv the most important feature which i felt was the locator which is a cool feature . and then the scroll buttons are again cool features . we do n't have lcd for it but that we decided we do n't want to have . project manager: yeah . seven . marketing: i would say five . user interface: i 'll say five . project manager: six . industrial designer: mm-hmm . seven . project manager: plus six , i say i said seven . user interface: yeah . project manager: so it 's six . user interface: s yeah . marketing: you said seven ? project manager: yeah . user interface: 'cause it 's five five seven seven so industrial designer: okay . user interface: uh , okay , definitely easy to use . industrial designer: definitely seven . user interface: seven . project manager: seven . seven . and you ? outl you are not lik outlier . marketing: five . user interface: project manager: seven industrial designer: project manager: okay okay okay okay . industrial designer: okay . marketing: sorry , i have them user interface: alright , now here 's the sixty million dollar question , project manager: user interface: well , twenty five twenty five euro question . project manager: of course i 'll buy the banana . user interface: what do you what do you guys reckon ? marketing: of cour of course the most difficult question for the end . project manager: well industrial designer: i 'll say five . user interface: hmm . industrial designer: i 'll say five . project manager: twenty five euros . cheap . industrial designer: marketing: i find it quite cheap actually . user interface: marketing: i dunno . if i i it depends , if you live in in switzerland or you live in project manager: yeah , so the target price is for all europe , or only for rich countries ? it 's more targeting u_k_ or marketing: i do n't know . wha the initial specifications were for the whole all europe or user interface: uh project manager: so this is selling costs , not production costs . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah this is the the initial specifications . project manager: yeah yeah sure . um five . marketing: i would say six . it 's quite cheap actually . user interface: i 'd say two . project manager: aw , should be nice in your industrial designer: why ? user interface: i do n't want a banana on my living room table , a banana remote . marketing: industrial designer: no but it 's really handy actually if you see . user interface: it is handy , it 's handy , but it it 's terrible . industrial designer: it 's it 's so handy . and then project manager: it 's kitsch . industrial designer: anyb anybody who comes here anybody who comes to your home he 'll at least ask once what is this . user interface: yeah . yeah , but it 's not a positive thing . industrial designer: it 's a very positive thing if you see like that . user interface: well , you know , it 's it 's handy , it 's ergonomic , but it 's a banana . project manager: well , do n't forget well , do n't for do n't forget who we 're targeting also who are f f who are wh industrial designer: youngsters . project manager: yeah , youngst youngst user interface: yeah but it says i , i would buy this , so . marketing: actually maybe project manager: no well yeah i if you would be young . marketing: yeah project manager: not telling that you are young . li li like a teenager for instance . user interface: no , it 's i . i would buy industrial designer: project manager: okay you 're you 're crazy teenager and you like fun things . industrial designer: you want to flaunt . project manager: yeah . user interface: industrial designer: you with your girlfriend or something . project manager: yeah , you want to show the beautiful banana you have . user interface: s s industrial designer: or might be it does some other kind of thing but user interface: still i i 'd say two . i do n't think i at any stage in my life i would want a banana remote control , really . industrial designer: uh yeah , crazy . project manager: okay so you s you give user interface: i can say , maybe there is a market for it , i dunno . project manager: oh yeah yeah i know i know . industrial designer: project manager: so you say two . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i say five . project manager: f i d i say five . you say ? marketing: i change the question . project manager: so what 's the new question ? industrial designer: and you have saved it ? marketing: so yeah upload the industrial designer: you 'll have to reload . project manager: uh yeah , i think so . user interface: okay , so , it depends if uh marketing: yeah it 's two different situations . if you really need an universal remote control or if you would change your remote control for a n for a new one . project manager: yeah that 's two different question . user interface: if i had t if i had to spend twenty five euro , if that was like my limit , maybe i would buy it . because the other twenty five euro remote controls are probably gon na look project manager: ugly . user interface: worse than a banana . industrial designer: they 're not going to be as and they they might not be a as easy as this marketing: user interface: and it yeah this is gon na f you know handy to use . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: so ? what now ? what range ? project manager: i stick to five . industrial designer: s user interface: although it still has it still has the word of course at the beginning industrial designer: i go slightly up . six . marketing: six . user interface: so i dunno . um . project manager: w we have six , five user interface: i 'd give it i 'd give it a project manager: three user interface: i give it a four now . industrial designer: marketing: six ? six ? project manager: so we are six , five , four industrial designer: six , five , four . marketing: six , so it 's uh five point five , or less . project manager: yeah . so industrial designer: okay . project manager: so and last question , will i change my rem change my remote control from mando banana . um , zero . no uh we ca n't . marketing: project manager: so one . user interface: marketing: actually yeah , i we project manager: well if . user interface: yeah . project manager: no uh let 's say i 'll put two . user interface: i 'd say three , i mean my remote control is kinda at home is pretty terrible . if it was change my remote control of my d_v_d_ player for a mando banana then i would be more inclined to project manager: it 's for the tv . user interface: but uh 'cause it 's really bad but uh marketing: user interface: i 'd say a three . industrial designer: i 'll still give it five . yeah . marketing: five ? project manager: two three five two three fi and two . marketing: you are romantic , really . industrial designer: so it 's somewhere three point five i think . marketing: i would say two . project manager: so it 's r yeah , three point five . marketing: who is the outlier ? user interface: marketing: wh wh you said five ? project manager: no no you say five , he is the outlier . industrial designer: no i said five . project manager: okay just just do a sum . marketing: i do n't know if it 's a user interface: it 's not very promising but you know we 're not young trendsetters . marketing: no because there are more yeah , we should n't sum like that . project manager: well maybe we should we should uh have a look globally glob marketing: because the the last two questions is much more important than the rest actually . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: otherwise we would n't we will not sell . user interface: is there some some formula you 're using that says you have to sum them up ? marketing: uh no i did n't anything . user interface: well just leave it at that then . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: oops . project manager: so maybe maybe w we can we should stick to general feeling . we can had uh have a out of these numbers , which which is that well we should go for it . marketing: yeah , the uh yeah . project manager: problem with connectors ? marketing: do you want me to sum user interface: no . industrial designer: yeah it 's it 's funny . marketing: o i think it 's not user interface: i think it it kind of you just lose information if you sum it , so . project manager: okay . so let 's move uh let 's move on . industrial designer: yeah , sure . project manager: okay , now now we have to mm to estimate uh the cost okay . so i prepare an excel sh uh an excel sheet . um well we are going to calculate the production costs . we should we should be below twelve point five . so i already uh put some pu some numbers here , okay . we are going to go through so this is the number the mm number of components we need for this thing . so it appears that there were things that we did n't thought about . uh and also things that i uh i d i forget to uh to put like solar cells . user interface: well we decided against the solar cells so industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: oh yeah finally we say no . industrial designer: solar cells , yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah , we said no to that . project manager: okay so let 's let 's go let 's go let go through all the lines . so hand dynamo . this something we did n't thought about . but user interface: you mean , charging it by shaking the banana . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think rechargeable batteries will take care of the power thing . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay so we we stick to battery , one . industrial designer: to bring the cost yeah . project manager: no kinetic also . i do n't i do n't see the difference between kinetic and dynamo . user interface: well maybe dynamo is like you have to actually project manager: ah you have to ah okay i see so kinetic is really uh shaking the banana . user interface: marketing: s user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: crazy . okay . so those banana is falling . let 's go ahead . so we we st only have one for battery . uh then for electronics um so i did n't put anything for the . industrial designer: so we have the regular chip on the print , which is one . project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and that 's it . project manager: okay . no so we hin industrial designer: and we have sample speaker . project manager: yeah so one . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . the cost of that is very high . project manager: ooh ye ye ye the cost is increasing . so we are user interface: well actually that that no that sample speaker is not we we 're not using that , we 're just using the the very beep simple beep , project manager: the beep . user interface: that s that sample thing is like the voice recording and everything . industrial designer: uh-huh . project manager: that 's what industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: okay so i 'll remove it . user interface: so yeah . project manager: s user interface: i say that yeah . project manager: so do n't we need a industrial designer: and we have sev project manager: oh there is no listing for r radio frequency thing . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so industrial designer: so we we 'll put some extras , if there is something . project manager: yeah maybe . we 'll see later . user interface: mm . project manager: okay so in for the case um i put single curved . industrial designer: okay . to reduce the cost , it 's okay . user interface: well , wait a second , project manager: because we have two things . user interface: no , it 's it 's double curved , it 's got a c , it 's uh industrial designer: oh it 's got all the directions project manager: no . industrial designer: so do n't worry . user interface: well d yeah it 's monotonic but marketing: industrial designer: it 's got a direction . user interface: it 's got but if you hold it if you hold it that way that 's two curved , one on this side , one on that side , but they 're opposite sides . project manager: well . what a what i if i put one here . user interface: this is actually i mean this probably marketing: actually what 's the differen user interface: this probably actually costs more than three project manager: yeah so let 's put one here in the then instead of single user interface: if you industrial designer: okay . okay . project manager: oka all right . user interface: yeah . project manager: so we stick to plastic , it cost nothing . industrial designer: yeah . that 's right . user interface: well no did n't we say we wanted to do a rubber project manager: no , it 's too no . user interface: if you drop it ? marketing: too expensive . project manager: it 's too expensive . we 're already at eleven . user interface: well when okay . well we we 'll come back we 'll come back and see if we can fit it in . project manager: okay so i put rubber one . okay so special colour , yellow . user interface: yeah . project manager: uh for the interface we have industrial designer: we do n't have any push buttons . user interface: no , we have two push buttons . project manager: we have three . industrial designer: no that is a scroll wheel itself , it 'll be put in that . user interface: huh . project manager: no no . we have two scroll , and we have three push buttons . industrial designer: ah okay , okay . user interface: uh . industrial designer: okay , okay . project manager: and user interface: okay it 's gon na have to be plastic . marketing: actually whe whe when you wrote regular chip you should put two , because there is another chip here . project manager: no it 's no chip . this is just radio frequency . th this is no chip . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah but industrial designer: no . there 's no chip there . marketing: you need industrial designer: it just emits the signal . project manager: it 's just industrial designer: and the receiver accepts it and that 's it . project manager: yeah . marketing: fo i it does nothing actually ? project manager: no . just only . industrial designer: just se sends the signal , that 's it . user interface: it 's a recharger thing and uh project manager: okay w we did n't think a thought about uh integrated scroll wheel push buttons . user interface: well i actually did um think about it myself but i thought you know because you could potentially you know you could be pushing it down as you scroll it for a instead of a turbo button project manager: yeah , user interface: but you know the turbo button does add that extra class . project manager: so yeah . user interface: you know . so i mean if we 're if we 're over budget then maybe we could we could rethink that . project manager: okay . so no lcd , so for we have no button supplements , right ? industrial designer: yep . no . project manager: uh well in fact could we could not we consider this button as a button supplement because oh no , these are these are for colours , co and special forms , special colours and special materials . user interface: yeah . no we 're not project manager: so user interface: we do n't need anything special for the buttons . project manager: okay so we are over budget . industrial designer: yeah . so first thing which we should take care of is , user interface: make it plastic instead of rubber . industrial designer: instead of rubber , let it be plastic . project manager: yeah . user interface: and then we 're basically o on budget except for you know ten cents . industrial designer: and uh that much money will be required for the base station , which is not there . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: so mayb in fact n we have to put two here marketing: project manager: because it cost nothing . user interface: yeah well pl the base station is made out of m many units of plastic . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: that 's right . project manager: industrial designer: so might be ninety centimes for the the remaining things which the cord and everything which 'll go project manager: exactly exactly so we have margin for that stuff . user interface: does that include charging circuitry and everything ? industrial designer: that 's right . project manager: yeah maybe . okay good . wha industrial designer: yeah . project manager: excellent . user interface: so what do we do with the extra profits ? project manager: um we 'll invest in r_ and d_ . user interface: okay . marketing: user interface: the next fruit . project manager: yeah . so well we 're under the the the cost . so we can go to through to project evaluation . marketing: okay so now we have a product which nobody would would buy . would yeah , would buy . project manager: sorry ? user interface: no we have a product which none of us would buy . marketing: yeah because th th the evaluation project project manager: which is different . which is different . none of us will buy it . user interface: no it 's people in in in milan and uh in paris that are gon na buy it . marketing: ah would buy , yeah . user interface: we 're n marketing: massively , yeah . user interface: yeah . we 're not in milan or paris . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . okay . uh you have been in milan a couple of times , so . project manager: this is a battery . user interface: actually there were a lot of industrial designer: marketing: and you said the lowest . user interface: project manager: this is what we which you can mm industrial designer: s detachable battery . project manager: it did yeah . user interface: that 's 'cause i 'm sick of milan . marketing: yeah , for the batteries project manager: extra battery , yeah . industrial designer: user interface: okay so um project process . project manager: exac well in fact i i did not know i did n't know really what to say here . marketing: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: if uh if you have any ideas of what we can we can say . so i do n't i do n't i do n't understand what what they mean by satisfaction um and for and for example . user interface: project manager: should it be more like um like a status of of the these meetings in fact . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah well in fact uh we we use a little bit the white board and the digital pen , not that much . user interface: i dunno i think we had a fair bit of creativity . project manager: oh yeah it 's really creative . user interface: and uh but i think one thing we m missed out of this whole process was a um like a focus group with the actual people we 're targeting . industrial designer: user interface: we needed some of these kind of young trendsetters to come in and play with the banana and you know see if they project manager: yeah . industrial designer: they like that . user interface: see if they like it . project manager: yeah maybe we should go through , yeah an uh evaluation . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: because yeah the evaluation for us is is kind of pointless . industrial designer: biased . project manager: so maybe you should we should do a kinda evaluation in the streets like asking to young peoples well , do you like to have a banana as a remote control . user interface: yeah . because it it would also be interesting to uh you to know find out if we have a market in really young children as well , to see you know how to how to market this thing . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: 'cause you know if well i mean maybe you do n't wan na give all your kids their own remote because they 'll be changing the channel all the time but you know maybe in some households where there is you know a tv for each kid , then you know , banana remote control could be fun for them as well . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: might have to draw a face on it . so but i think that 's something we need to to work on next time is really finding out more about the target market . project manager: yep . any any new ideas we could uh we could investigate next time ? dunno , oranges ? industrial designer: yeah . the cost of the thing can be made more than might be . because i think it 's just the optimal , what we have done for the cost which we are looking forward to . user interface: yeah . i think there are ways we could maybe simplify the industrial designer: interface . user interface: well just the the the circuit board that we 're using inside , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i 'm not sure really how complicated our um industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: our needs are . i mean all we have is two push buttons and two scrollers , do we really need an integrated circuit to project manager: hmm . user interface: you know to process that . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: so more general remote control instead of just focusing on uh on tv . industrial designer: that 's right . marketing: the complexity should n't be much higher . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: for you said if it good for d_v_d_ then i would user interface: and also fo you know for mood lighting and and stuff , that would be rather cool . i think that 's actually something that should be in version two , is the ability to you know to control things other than the tv industrial designer: integrate . user interface: and not just electronic equipment but you know the whole environment of the room . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: project manager: okay . very good . so industrial designer: so what else ? project manager: well done . i think we we can go industrial designer: okay . home ? project manager: home . industrial designer: happily satisfied . marketing: project manager: yeah . maybe maybe we can hassle the the production department to to make a a real prototype that we can use at home to to evaluate . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: okay so thanks very much . user interface: yep . project manager: bye . user interface: okay . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: thank you . marketing: bye .

project manager started meeting on the detailed design of the remote control . user interface and industrial designer gave a presentation on the prototype with a banana leaf base station and a hand-sized remote with two scroll wheels , the turbo button , the teletext button , the calling button , the rechargeable-batteries power source , and the speaker regular chip . next , the group evaluated based on marketing 's list of user requirement criteria . then , groupmates discussed the cost estimation , including the component production cost . they agreed to use plastic instead of rubber material for the dual chips . also , they agreed not to use lcd and no button supplements to avoid over budget . lastly , the group discussed the project process . the group agreed they had creativity , while user interface suggested that they should find out more target markets . besides , project manager suggested doing a street survey . also , user interface suggested that they could simplify the interface and the circuit board .

summarize the group discussion about the presentation on the prototype . </s> project manager: marketing: project manager: okay . good afternoon again . user interface: project manager: so we should have our final meeting about the detail designed of detail design of the product of the remote control . um so here is the agenda for today . uh uh just going to go quickly through the minutes of the last last uh meeting then we have a p presentation of prototype of you two , sounds interesting . and we 'll have um presentation of evaluation crit criteria by ou our marketing experts . then we 'll have to go through finance evaluation of the of the cost of the thing and um hopefully uh we should fit the target o tw of twelve point five uh uh euro . okay . so let 's go . uh if i go quickly through the minutes of the last meeting . so we went through th uh w we took this following decisions . no lcd , no speech recognition technology , okay , we went through a b to a banana look and feel for the remote control . we went through the use of wheels and but buttons . and also the use of a basis station for battery ch charging and uh also to um call the to call the mot mote remote control when it is lost . okay . um . good . so guys let this uh wonderful thing . industrial designer: okay so we can go to the slides . project manager: oh yeah . sorry . um . industrial designer: yeah . number three . oh number two sorry . project manager: which is industrial designer: so final design . final design . okay so michael you can go ahead . user interface: yeah so uh following our decision to uh make a yellow well to make a banana project manager: yeah can you show it to the the camera maybe . user interface: remote okay so we actually have a industrial designer: you can pull it out first , maybe . user interface: we 've well first first of all we made a an attractive base station uh with a banana leaf uh look and feel um and uh project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: bana sit the banana sits in there k you know nicely weighted so that it 's not gon na tip over and um this is the remote itself , it 's kind of it 's it 's ergonomic , it fits in the hand uh rather well . we 've got the two uh uh scroll wheels here which you know one on the the left for the uh volume and the one on the right for for the channel and uh underneath we have the uh the turbo button which is in like a nice uh trigger position for you know for pressing quite naturally . project manager: what 's the use uh of the t turbo button already ? user interface: this is when you when you uh are scrolling the uh through the channels you can tell it to to skip th past channels that you quickly rather th project manager: ah yeah yeah an then you stop when you stop it stops . user interface: yeah . well when you stop scrolling the wheel it stops . but normally with uh it will just uh s stay on each station briefly so you can see the the picture . industrial designer: uh project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: and we we do have one more functionality . if you take the banana as such and uh you press the turbo button , so it switch ons the switch ons the tv . user interface: the tv yeah . project manager: which one ? user interface: the s the turbo button . industrial designer: the turbo button . project manager: okay . user interface: so rather than having uh an extra button for um for the on off switch you just use the turbo button . industrial designer: additional button . marketing: what this button for ? user interface: this is a teletext button . so once you press that then you get teletext marketing: okay . user interface: and you can use the the channel selector scroll wheel as uh project manager: to navigate it through th through teletext . user interface: to navigate yeah . marketing: but if you want to go to page seven hundred ? industrial designer: that 's right , that 's right . user interface: yeah . project manager: with the wheel it 's easy . marketing: how man user interface: well then you can you you have like a little uh number selection thing , you press the the the teletext button uh to move between uh the fields and then you can just scroll the number back and forth so you have s you go you scroll to seven and then zero zero and then you can uh marketing: i do n't understand it . can you repeat it ? user interface: well you can you can press press the teletext button industrial designer: user interface: and then you then you can you can f industrial designer: so then then both the scroll buttons they are for teletext browsing . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and you can tele marketing: ah okay okay . okay . okay okay . industrial designer: yeah , user interface: mm uh industrial designer: once you press the teletext button then the scroll buttons they are more for teletext , they are no more for channel or vol volume . marketing: okay . i see . i see . okay . okay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and this is the uh the infrared uh port . industrial designer: that 's right . user interface: also the top of the banana . project manager: excellent . user interface: so . and then we have industrial designer: yeah . user interface: in the uh in the base station we have the the button at the front for uh for calling the uh the banana . project manager: calling . excellent . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and the the leaves plays the roles of of antennas ? user interface: actually they do . project manager: oh . user interface: that 's that 's yeah that 's uh that 's form and function in the one in the one uh object . industrial designer: yeah . so it always means , whatever the rays goes by they they get reflected and then you are having a better coverage . user interface: industrial designer: it 's like antennas . user interface: yeah . so . marketing: user interface: but yeah that 's um that 's just like that 's an attractive um base station . project manager: great . user interface: so . project manager: so , what else ? user interface: okay . industrial designer: and for the power source we are having solar cells and rechargeable batteries and this and uh the basis station is going to have the input from the mm power line for for charging the batteries . marketing: is it really weight ? is it light or industrial designer: it is very light . project manager: yeah , they 're light . user interface: it 's it 's uh it 's about the weight of a banana . marketing: okay . project manager: marketing: okay . user interface: you know , to give you the correct look and feel . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: ok industrial designer: and we have put these different colours so that people do n't mistake them mistake it as a banana . user interface: industrial designer: otherwise it 's you know a child comes and so marketing: okay . yeah yeah yeah , i see . i under i understand . user interface: i think a child would try to eat it anyway , so maybe we should industrial designer: yeah . user interface: consider that . maybe health and safety aspects . project manager: ah yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: industrial designer: oh we did n't think of that yet . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: so for the power source , apparently you still you you want to use both solar cells and batteries . industrial designer: oh yeah that 's right . project manager: uh you mean okay . so user interface: i do n't really know if the solar cells are actually necessary any more if you have a recharging base station . project manager: yeah , where are going to where are you are you going to place them ? industrial designer: mm-hmm mm-hmm . it 'll it 'll be always at top somewhere at there . user interface: if i was gon na place them i 'd put them on the on the top here since that 's like uh the black bit project manager: you have enough surface ? you user interface: but yeah i do n't i really do n't think it 's necessary to have the solar cells anymore . industrial designer: yeah because now we are having rechargeable batteries project manager: okay . user interface: mm . industrial designer: so that that is . project manager: what will be the autonomy ? roughly ? user interface: the what sorry ? project manager: the autonomy . autonomy . user interface: what do you mean ? project manager: uh i mean how long does i how how how long can it be held off a station ? marketing: how long the how long the bit the batteries long . user interface: ah . ah . a long time . project manager: yeah . a long user interface: no no no , industrial designer: eight to ten eight to ten hours . marketing: user interface: it can it should be weeks . industrial designer: n most no most of the time it 's not being used . project manager: yeah , so it 's user interface: yeah but y people do n't like to put it back in the base station all the time people leave wan na leave it on the couch so industrial designer: so when when you are making it on project manager: it 's used only when you industrial designer: mm . mm-hmm . no eight or eight or ten hours of working . user interface: ah , okay . industrial designer: if you are just leaving like that it 'll be much longer . user interface: okay . project manager: yeah . f weeks . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . that 's right . project manager: right . next slide ? industrial designer: yeah . and we are having the speakers regular chip for control . pricing is was a factor so that 's why we have gone for a regular chip only not the advanced chip . and uh that 's it . project manager: okay . okay . those really sounds very good . industrial designer: that 's right . project manager: nothing else to add ? user interface: it seems to be falling over . marketing: i l yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: i like i like it . maybe the the thing that convince me the less is the the multifunctional buttons . looks a bit industrial designer: you want to have more functional buttons ? marketing: looks a bit puzzled uh i dunno how to say that . industrial designer: you are not convinced . marketing: you the the b the buttons change h h their function depending if y it 's teletext or not industrial designer: not not many , we we want to keep it simple . so that this button fo is for teletext which is usually also the case , that usually there is a teletext button and once you press that , the channel buttons , they baco become the scrolling buttons . marketing: and the volume button will will become industrial designer: it 's up to you , means . project manager: well in fact b both will be could be useful , navigating through teletext . industrial designer: now that means let 's say this this can move the the larger digits and this can move the smaller digits . user interface: or can move between positions in the in the number . industrial designer: that 's right . project manager: yeah . marketing: and what about people who want to use digits ? butto real buttons ? project manager: wow . industrial designer: yeah . so there was there was a constraint that the surface area which we have on this banana on one side because of the shape . marketing: industrial designer: so we are targeting a segment which is which is just very trendy kind of thing , they they do n't care about the buttons any more . and anyway marketing: okay . because have you thought about configuration and all this kind of uh stuff ? user interface: it 's all automatic . marketing: it 's all automatic . user interface: yep . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: okay . okay yeah it 's fine . project manager: very good uh yeah marketing: w we are living in a wonderful world . project manager: you th yeah . user interface: uh . industrial designer: project manager: bananas everywhere . industrial designer: project manager: okay , so marketing: automatically configure . project manager: marketing: project manager: so we have to go through now evaluations . industrial designer: evalua yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so your slides are ready ? marketing: s project manager: uh you 're four i think . marketing: yeah . project manager: so this is one , which one is this one ? marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: okay . i i const i constructed a a list of criteria based on the on the general user requirements . and each criteria is will be evaluated it 's uh logical criteria so we must users must say i if it 's true or is or if it 's false in a in a scale ranging from zero to seven . industrial designer: why this strange factor of seven ? marketing: because i i 'm sorry . sorry . industrial designer: usually i have seen that scales are from one to ten . marketing: ah yeah . it 's from sorry , it 's from one to seven . it 's from from one to seven sorry . because it should be an even it should be an even uh scale , industrial designer: okay . project manager: num number industrial designer: okay . mm-hmm . marketing: and five is too short and nine is too long . industrial designer: okay . marketing: i 'm a i i 'm industrial designer: okay fine , got the idea . project manager: so to have in order to have enough granularity marketing: sorry ? project manager: it 's in order to have enough granularity in the evaluation . marketing: yeah yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: the variance is mi it 's is minimal . project manager: okay . industrial designer: okay , okay , great . marketing: i 'm um answering your question . industrial designer: okay . yeah yeah . marketing: okay . industrial designer: go ahead . marketing: and that 's the criteria i i found more useful . i think i sh i i could write the criteria in the on the whiteboard ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . sure . marketing: and we all four could range industrial designer: okay . yeah yeah . yeah . marketing: could evaluate the project manager: okay . marketing: industrial designer: so you can say fancy , handy . handy . marketing: okay let 's let 's evaluate if it 's fancy or industrial designer: yeah , it 's fancy , according to me . marketing: seven but user interface: project manager: yeah , six . industrial designer: project manager: s seven . industrial designer: seven . seven by me . project manager: six . marketing: i would say seven . industrial designer: okay . marketing: it 's quite fancy . industrial designer: so you can add seven plus six plus seven plus user interface: project manager: no , wait . user interface: yeah uh five . project manager: what do you say seven ? five ? industrial designer: five . user interface: five , maybe maybe maybe six it 's it 's i guess it 's project manager: okay , six point five . user interface: yeah . project manager: handy ? user interface: industrial designer: again i 'll give seven . project manager: seven . user interface: i 'd give it a six like i 'd i think it 's probably more handy than my current remote , 'cause of the scroll wheels marketing: six . industrial designer: yep . user interface: but maybe loses the point for not having you know the extra buttons when you reall if you do need them for some reason but you know you can always use your other remote . project manager: so seven , seven , industrial designer: seven for me . project manager: six , user interface: yeah . marketing: six . project manager: six point five . functional . user interface: industrial designer: i 'll give five . project manager: four . marketing: i would say project manager: industrial designer: user interface: well it depends when you say functional , do you mean it does what we want it to do , or d does what it does , you know , can it make you coffee ? marketing: everything ar project manager: uh for a remote control , does he have all the user interface: you know . marketing: mm everything user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: you could expect . marketing: it 's compared to the all industrial designer: that 's right . marketing: remote controls . user interface: that 's before industrial designer: that 's right . the standards . what is available in the market off the shelf . user interface: yeah . i have to say four . marketing: actually i do n't know what are the r the real specification of a of a universal remote contro user interface: well it 's not a universal remote . remember we 're focus we 're supposed to focus just on tvs . industrial designer: we marketing: ah it 's not an univer but it 's for all kind of tvs ? project manager: yeah . user interface: well all tvs but only t_ only tvs i guess . project manager: so it 's universal but for tvs . so s uh four ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: five . project manager: five ? user interface: four . project manager: four . marketing: four . four . industrial designer: so four point two ? user interface: just four . project manager: four . industrial designer: four . user interface: obviously there are some outliers so marketing: so four ? project manager: okay cool ? cool device . industrial designer: marketing: industrial designer: there i 'll give it seven . project manager: marketing: it means cool features , like new features actually . industrial designer: that 's right . user interface: which industrial designer: for a tv the most important feature which i felt was the locator which is a cool feature . and then the scroll buttons are again cool features . we do n't have lcd for it but that we decided we do n't want to have . project manager: yeah . seven . marketing: i would say five . user interface: i 'll say five . project manager: six . industrial designer: mm-hmm . seven . project manager: plus six , i say i said seven . user interface: yeah . project manager: so it 's six . user interface: s yeah . marketing: you said seven ? project manager: yeah . user interface: 'cause it 's five five seven seven so industrial designer: okay . user interface: uh , okay , definitely easy to use . industrial designer: definitely seven . user interface: seven . project manager: seven . seven . and you ? outl you are not lik outlier . marketing: five . user interface: project manager: seven industrial designer: project manager: okay okay okay okay . industrial designer: okay . marketing: sorry , i have them user interface: alright , now here 's the sixty million dollar question , project manager: user interface: well , twenty five twenty five euro question . project manager: of course i 'll buy the banana . user interface: what do you what do you guys reckon ? marketing: of cour of course the most difficult question for the end . project manager: well industrial designer: i 'll say five . user interface: hmm . industrial designer: i 'll say five . project manager: twenty five euros . cheap . industrial designer: marketing: i find it quite cheap actually . user interface: marketing: i dunno . if i i it depends , if you live in in switzerland or you live in project manager: yeah , so the target price is for all europe , or only for rich countries ? it 's more targeting u_k_ or marketing: i do n't know . wha the initial specifications were for the whole all europe or user interface: uh project manager: so this is selling costs , not production costs . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah this is the the initial specifications . project manager: yeah yeah sure . um five . marketing: i would say six . it 's quite cheap actually . user interface: i 'd say two . project manager: aw , should be nice in your industrial designer: why ? user interface: i do n't want a banana on my living room table , a banana remote . marketing: industrial designer: no but it 's really handy actually if you see . user interface: it is handy , it 's handy , but it it 's terrible . industrial designer: it 's it 's so handy . and then project manager: it 's kitsch . industrial designer: anyb anybody who comes here anybody who comes to your home he 'll at least ask once what is this . user interface: yeah . yeah , but it 's not a positive thing . industrial designer: it 's a very positive thing if you see like that . user interface: well , you know , it 's it 's handy , it 's ergonomic , but it 's a banana . project manager: well , do n't forget well , do n't for do n't forget who we 're targeting also who are f f who are wh industrial designer: youngsters . project manager: yeah , youngst youngst user interface: yeah but it says i , i would buy this , so . marketing: actually maybe project manager: no well yeah i if you would be young . marketing: yeah project manager: not telling that you are young . li li like a teenager for instance . user interface: no , it 's i . i would buy industrial designer: project manager: okay you 're you 're crazy teenager and you like fun things . industrial designer: you want to flaunt . project manager: yeah . user interface: industrial designer: you with your girlfriend or something . project manager: yeah , you want to show the beautiful banana you have . user interface: s s industrial designer: or might be it does some other kind of thing but user interface: still i i 'd say two . i do n't think i at any stage in my life i would want a banana remote control , really . industrial designer: uh yeah , crazy . project manager: okay so you s you give user interface: i can say , maybe there is a market for it , i dunno . project manager: oh yeah yeah i know i know . industrial designer: project manager: so you say two . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i say five . project manager: f i d i say five . you say ? marketing: i change the question . project manager: so what 's the new question ? industrial designer: and you have saved it ? marketing: so yeah upload the industrial designer: you 'll have to reload . project manager: uh yeah , i think so . user interface: okay , so , it depends if uh marketing: yeah it 's two different situations . if you really need an universal remote control or if you would change your remote control for a n for a new one . project manager: yeah that 's two different question . user interface: if i had t if i had to spend twenty five euro , if that was like my limit , maybe i would buy it . because the other twenty five euro remote controls are probably gon na look project manager: ugly . user interface: worse than a banana . industrial designer: they 're not going to be as and they they might not be a as easy as this marketing: user interface: and it yeah this is gon na f you know handy to use . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: so ? what now ? what range ? project manager: i stick to five . industrial designer: s user interface: although it still has it still has the word of course at the beginning industrial designer: i go slightly up . six . marketing: six . user interface: so i dunno . um . project manager: w we have six , five user interface: i 'd give it i 'd give it a project manager: three user interface: i give it a four now . industrial designer: marketing: six ? six ? project manager: so we are six , five , four industrial designer: six , five , four . marketing: six , so it 's uh five point five , or less . project manager: yeah . so industrial designer: okay . project manager: so and last question , will i change my rem change my remote control from mando banana . um , zero . no uh we ca n't . marketing: project manager: so one . user interface: marketing: actually yeah , i we project manager: well if . user interface: yeah . project manager: no uh let 's say i 'll put two . user interface: i 'd say three , i mean my remote control is kinda at home is pretty terrible . if it was change my remote control of my d_v_d_ player for a mando banana then i would be more inclined to project manager: it 's for the tv . user interface: but uh 'cause it 's really bad but uh marketing: user interface: i 'd say a three . industrial designer: i 'll still give it five . yeah . marketing: five ? project manager: two three five two three fi and two . marketing: you are romantic , really . industrial designer: so it 's somewhere three point five i think . marketing: i would say two . project manager: so it 's r yeah , three point five . marketing: who is the outlier ? user interface: marketing: wh wh you said five ? project manager: no no you say five , he is the outlier . industrial designer: no i said five . project manager: okay just just do a sum . marketing: i do n't know if it 's a user interface: it 's not very promising but you know we 're not young trendsetters . marketing: no because there are more yeah , we should n't sum like that . project manager: well maybe we should we should uh have a look globally glob marketing: because the the last two questions is much more important than the rest actually . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: otherwise we would n't we will not sell . user interface: is there some some formula you 're using that says you have to sum them up ? marketing: uh no i did n't anything . user interface: well just leave it at that then . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: oops . project manager: so maybe maybe w we can we should stick to general feeling . we can had uh have a out of these numbers , which which is that well we should go for it . marketing: yeah , the uh yeah . project manager: problem with connectors ? marketing: do you want me to sum user interface: no . industrial designer: yeah it 's it 's funny . marketing: o i think it 's not user interface: i think it it kind of you just lose information if you sum it , so . project manager: okay . so let 's move uh let 's move on . industrial designer: yeah , sure . project manager: okay , now now we have to mm to estimate uh the cost okay . so i prepare an excel sh uh an excel sheet . um well we are going to calculate the production costs . we should we should be below twelve point five . so i already uh put some pu some numbers here , okay . we are going to go through so this is the number the mm number of components we need for this thing . so it appears that there were things that we did n't thought about . uh and also things that i uh i d i forget to uh to put like solar cells . user interface: well we decided against the solar cells so industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: oh yeah finally we say no . industrial designer: solar cells , yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah , we said no to that . project manager: okay so let 's let 's go let 's go let go through all the lines . so hand dynamo . this something we did n't thought about . but user interface: you mean , charging it by shaking the banana . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think rechargeable batteries will take care of the power thing . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay so we we stick to battery , one . industrial designer: to bring the cost yeah . project manager: no kinetic also . i do n't i do n't see the difference between kinetic and dynamo . user interface: well maybe dynamo is like you have to actually project manager: ah you have to ah okay i see so kinetic is really uh shaking the banana . user interface: marketing: s user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: crazy . okay . so those banana is falling . let 's go ahead . so we we st only have one for battery . uh then for electronics um so i did n't put anything for the . industrial designer: so we have the regular chip on the print , which is one . project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and that 's it . project manager: okay . no so we hin industrial designer: and we have sample speaker . project manager: yeah so one . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . the cost of that is very high . project manager: ooh ye ye ye the cost is increasing . so we are user interface: well actually that that no that sample speaker is not we we 're not using that , we 're just using the the very beep simple beep , project manager: the beep . user interface: that s that sample thing is like the voice recording and everything . industrial designer: uh-huh . project manager: that 's what industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: okay so i 'll remove it . user interface: so yeah . project manager: s user interface: i say that yeah . project manager: so do n't we need a industrial designer: and we have sev project manager: oh there is no listing for r radio frequency thing . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so industrial designer: so we we 'll put some extras , if there is something . project manager: yeah maybe . we 'll see later . user interface: mm . project manager: okay so in for the case um i put single curved . industrial designer: okay . to reduce the cost , it 's okay . user interface: well , wait a second , project manager: because we have two things . user interface: no , it 's it 's double curved , it 's got a c , it 's uh industrial designer: oh it 's got all the directions project manager: no . industrial designer: so do n't worry . user interface: well d yeah it 's monotonic but marketing: industrial designer: it 's got a direction . user interface: it 's got but if you hold it if you hold it that way that 's two curved , one on this side , one on that side , but they 're opposite sides . project manager: well . what a what i if i put one here . user interface: this is actually i mean this probably marketing: actually what 's the differen user interface: this probably actually costs more than three project manager: yeah so let 's put one here in the then instead of single user interface: if you industrial designer: okay . okay . project manager: oka all right . user interface: yeah . project manager: so we stick to plastic , it cost nothing . industrial designer: yeah . that 's right . user interface: well no did n't we say we wanted to do a rubber project manager: no , it 's too no . user interface: if you drop it ? marketing: too expensive . project manager: it 's too expensive . we 're already at eleven . user interface: well when okay . well we we 'll come back we 'll come back and see if we can fit it in . project manager: okay so i put rubber one . okay so special colour , yellow . user interface: yeah . project manager: uh for the interface we have industrial designer: we do n't have any push buttons . user interface: no , we have two push buttons . project manager: we have three . industrial designer: no that is a scroll wheel itself , it 'll be put in that . user interface: huh . project manager: no no . we have two scroll , and we have three push buttons . industrial designer: ah okay , okay . user interface: uh . industrial designer: okay , okay . project manager: and user interface: okay it 's gon na have to be plastic . marketing: actually whe whe when you wrote regular chip you should put two , because there is another chip here . project manager: no it 's no chip . this is just radio frequency . th this is no chip . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah but industrial designer: no . there 's no chip there . marketing: you need industrial designer: it just emits the signal . project manager: it 's just industrial designer: and the receiver accepts it and that 's it . project manager: yeah . marketing: fo i it does nothing actually ? project manager: no . just only . industrial designer: just se sends the signal , that 's it . user interface: it 's a recharger thing and uh project manager: okay w we did n't think a thought about uh integrated scroll wheel push buttons . user interface: well i actually did um think about it myself but i thought you know because you could potentially you know you could be pushing it down as you scroll it for a instead of a turbo button project manager: yeah , user interface: but you know the turbo button does add that extra class . project manager: so yeah . user interface: you know . so i mean if we 're if we 're over budget then maybe we could we could rethink that . project manager: okay . so no lcd , so for we have no button supplements , right ? industrial designer: yep . no . project manager: uh well in fact could we could not we consider this button as a button supplement because oh no , these are these are for colours , co and special forms , special colours and special materials . user interface: yeah . no we 're not project manager: so user interface: we do n't need anything special for the buttons . project manager: okay so we are over budget . industrial designer: yeah . so first thing which we should take care of is , user interface: make it plastic instead of rubber . industrial designer: instead of rubber , let it be plastic . project manager: yeah . user interface: and then we 're basically o on budget except for you know ten cents . industrial designer: and uh that much money will be required for the base station , which is not there . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: so mayb in fact n we have to put two here marketing: project manager: because it cost nothing . user interface: yeah well pl the base station is made out of m many units of plastic . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: that 's right . project manager: industrial designer: so might be ninety centimes for the the remaining things which the cord and everything which 'll go project manager: exactly exactly so we have margin for that stuff . user interface: does that include charging circuitry and everything ? industrial designer: that 's right . project manager: yeah maybe . okay good . wha industrial designer: yeah . project manager: excellent . user interface: so what do we do with the extra profits ? project manager: um we 'll invest in r_ and d_ . user interface: okay . marketing: user interface: the next fruit . project manager: yeah . so well we 're under the the the cost . so we can go to through to project evaluation . marketing: okay so now we have a product which nobody would would buy . would yeah , would buy . project manager: sorry ? user interface: no we have a product which none of us would buy . marketing: yeah because th th the evaluation project project manager: which is different . which is different . none of us will buy it . user interface: no it 's people in in in milan and uh in paris that are gon na buy it . marketing: ah would buy , yeah . user interface: we 're n marketing: massively , yeah . user interface: yeah . we 're not in milan or paris . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . okay . uh you have been in milan a couple of times , so . project manager: this is a battery . user interface: actually there were a lot of industrial designer: marketing: and you said the lowest . user interface: project manager: this is what we which you can mm industrial designer: s detachable battery . project manager: it did yeah . user interface: that 's 'cause i 'm sick of milan . marketing: yeah , for the batteries project manager: extra battery , yeah . industrial designer: user interface: okay so um project process . project manager: exac well in fact i i did not know i did n't know really what to say here . marketing: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: if uh if you have any ideas of what we can we can say . so i do n't i do n't i do n't understand what what they mean by satisfaction um and for and for example . user interface: project manager: should it be more like um like a status of of the these meetings in fact . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah well in fact uh we we use a little bit the white board and the digital pen , not that much . user interface: i dunno i think we had a fair bit of creativity . project manager: oh yeah it 's really creative . user interface: and uh but i think one thing we m missed out of this whole process was a um like a focus group with the actual people we 're targeting . industrial designer: user interface: we needed some of these kind of young trendsetters to come in and play with the banana and you know see if they project manager: yeah . industrial designer: they like that . user interface: see if they like it . project manager: yeah maybe we should go through , yeah an uh evaluation . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: because yeah the evaluation for us is is kind of pointless . industrial designer: biased . project manager: so maybe you should we should do a kinda evaluation in the streets like asking to young peoples well , do you like to have a banana as a remote control . user interface: yeah . because it it would also be interesting to uh you to know find out if we have a market in really young children as well , to see you know how to how to market this thing . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: 'cause you know if well i mean maybe you do n't wan na give all your kids their own remote because they 'll be changing the channel all the time but you know maybe in some households where there is you know a tv for each kid , then you know , banana remote control could be fun for them as well . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: might have to draw a face on it . so but i think that 's something we need to to work on next time is really finding out more about the target market . project manager: yep . any any new ideas we could uh we could investigate next time ? dunno , oranges ? industrial designer: yeah . the cost of the thing can be made more than might be . because i think it 's just the optimal , what we have done for the cost which we are looking forward to . user interface: yeah . i think there are ways we could maybe simplify the industrial designer: interface . user interface: well just the the the circuit board that we 're using inside , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i 'm not sure really how complicated our um industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: our needs are . i mean all we have is two push buttons and two scrollers , do we really need an integrated circuit to project manager: hmm . user interface: you know to process that . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: so more general remote control instead of just focusing on uh on tv . industrial designer: that 's right . marketing: the complexity should n't be much higher . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: for you said if it good for d_v_d_ then i would user interface: and also fo you know for mood lighting and and stuff , that would be rather cool . i think that 's actually something that should be in version two , is the ability to you know to control things other than the tv industrial designer: integrate . user interface: and not just electronic equipment but you know the whole environment of the room . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: project manager: okay . very good . so industrial designer: so what else ? project manager: well done . i think we we can go industrial designer: okay . home ? project manager: home . industrial designer: happily satisfied . marketing: project manager: yeah . maybe maybe we can hassle the the production department to to make a a real prototype that we can use at home to to evaluate . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: okay so thanks very much . user interface: yep . project manager: bye . user interface: okay . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: thank you . marketing: bye .

user interface and industrial designer firstly presented on the prototype features which agreed to have a banana shape with a size that fitted to the hand . also , they showed the prototype with a leaf base station with a calling button to locate the remote control . as agreed by the group , the prototype would have two scroll wheels to control the volume and the channel , the turbo button that also could be used to turn on the tv , the teletext button to faster switch the channel . also , the group decided to give up on the solar cells and to use rechargeable batteries for the power source . concerning the product cost , the group decided to use a regular chip for the speaker .

summarize the group discussion about the evaluation criteria . </s> project manager: marketing: project manager: okay . good afternoon again . user interface: project manager: so we should have our final meeting about the detail designed of detail design of the product of the remote control . um so here is the agenda for today . uh uh just going to go quickly through the minutes of the last last uh meeting then we have a p presentation of prototype of you two , sounds interesting . and we 'll have um presentation of evaluation crit criteria by ou our marketing experts . then we 'll have to go through finance evaluation of the of the cost of the thing and um hopefully uh we should fit the target o tw of twelve point five uh uh euro . okay . so let 's go . uh if i go quickly through the minutes of the last meeting . so we went through th uh w we took this following decisions . no lcd , no speech recognition technology , okay , we went through a b to a banana look and feel for the remote control . we went through the use of wheels and but buttons . and also the use of a basis station for battery ch charging and uh also to um call the to call the mot mote remote control when it is lost . okay . um . good . so guys let this uh wonderful thing . industrial designer: okay so we can go to the slides . project manager: oh yeah . sorry . um . industrial designer: yeah . number three . oh number two sorry . project manager: which is industrial designer: so final design . final design . okay so michael you can go ahead . user interface: yeah so uh following our decision to uh make a yellow well to make a banana project manager: yeah can you show it to the the camera maybe . user interface: remote okay so we actually have a industrial designer: you can pull it out first , maybe . user interface: we 've well first first of all we made a an attractive base station uh with a banana leaf uh look and feel um and uh project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: bana sit the banana sits in there k you know nicely weighted so that it 's not gon na tip over and um this is the remote itself , it 's kind of it 's it 's ergonomic , it fits in the hand uh rather well . we 've got the two uh uh scroll wheels here which you know one on the the left for the uh volume and the one on the right for for the channel and uh underneath we have the uh the turbo button which is in like a nice uh trigger position for you know for pressing quite naturally . project manager: what 's the use uh of the t turbo button already ? user interface: this is when you when you uh are scrolling the uh through the channels you can tell it to to skip th past channels that you quickly rather th project manager: ah yeah yeah an then you stop when you stop it stops . user interface: yeah . well when you stop scrolling the wheel it stops . but normally with uh it will just uh s stay on each station briefly so you can see the the picture . industrial designer: uh project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: and we we do have one more functionality . if you take the banana as such and uh you press the turbo button , so it switch ons the switch ons the tv . user interface: the tv yeah . project manager: which one ? user interface: the s the turbo button . industrial designer: the turbo button . project manager: okay . user interface: so rather than having uh an extra button for um for the on off switch you just use the turbo button . industrial designer: additional button . marketing: what this button for ? user interface: this is a teletext button . so once you press that then you get teletext marketing: okay . user interface: and you can use the the channel selector scroll wheel as uh project manager: to navigate it through th through teletext . user interface: to navigate yeah . marketing: but if you want to go to page seven hundred ? industrial designer: that 's right , that 's right . user interface: yeah . project manager: with the wheel it 's easy . marketing: how man user interface: well then you can you you have like a little uh number selection thing , you press the the the teletext button uh to move between uh the fields and then you can just scroll the number back and forth so you have s you go you scroll to seven and then zero zero and then you can uh marketing: i do n't understand it . can you repeat it ? user interface: well you can you can press press the teletext button industrial designer: user interface: and then you then you can you can f industrial designer: so then then both the scroll buttons they are for teletext browsing . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and you can tele marketing: ah okay okay . okay . okay okay . industrial designer: yeah , user interface: mm uh industrial designer: once you press the teletext button then the scroll buttons they are more for teletext , they are no more for channel or vol volume . marketing: okay . i see . i see . okay . okay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and this is the uh the infrared uh port . industrial designer: that 's right . user interface: also the top of the banana . project manager: excellent . user interface: so . and then we have industrial designer: yeah . user interface: in the uh in the base station we have the the button at the front for uh for calling the uh the banana . project manager: calling . excellent . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and the the leaves plays the roles of of antennas ? user interface: actually they do . project manager: oh . user interface: that 's that 's yeah that 's uh that 's form and function in the one in the one uh object . industrial designer: yeah . so it always means , whatever the rays goes by they they get reflected and then you are having a better coverage . user interface: industrial designer: it 's like antennas . user interface: yeah . so . marketing: user interface: but yeah that 's um that 's just like that 's an attractive um base station . project manager: great . user interface: so . project manager: so , what else ? user interface: okay . industrial designer: and for the power source we are having solar cells and rechargeable batteries and this and uh the basis station is going to have the input from the mm power line for for charging the batteries . marketing: is it really weight ? is it light or industrial designer: it is very light . project manager: yeah , they 're light . user interface: it 's it 's uh it 's about the weight of a banana . marketing: okay . project manager: marketing: okay . user interface: you know , to give you the correct look and feel . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: ok industrial designer: and we have put these different colours so that people do n't mistake them mistake it as a banana . user interface: industrial designer: otherwise it 's you know a child comes and so marketing: okay . yeah yeah yeah , i see . i under i understand . user interface: i think a child would try to eat it anyway , so maybe we should industrial designer: yeah . user interface: consider that . maybe health and safety aspects . project manager: ah yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: industrial designer: oh we did n't think of that yet . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: so for the power source , apparently you still you you want to use both solar cells and batteries . industrial designer: oh yeah that 's right . project manager: uh you mean okay . so user interface: i do n't really know if the solar cells are actually necessary any more if you have a recharging base station . project manager: yeah , where are going to where are you are you going to place them ? industrial designer: mm-hmm mm-hmm . it 'll it 'll be always at top somewhere at there . user interface: if i was gon na place them i 'd put them on the on the top here since that 's like uh the black bit project manager: you have enough surface ? you user interface: but yeah i do n't i really do n't think it 's necessary to have the solar cells anymore . industrial designer: yeah because now we are having rechargeable batteries project manager: okay . user interface: mm . industrial designer: so that that is . project manager: what will be the autonomy ? roughly ? user interface: the what sorry ? project manager: the autonomy . autonomy . user interface: what do you mean ? project manager: uh i mean how long does i how how how long can it be held off a station ? marketing: how long the how long the bit the batteries long . user interface: ah . ah . a long time . project manager: yeah . a long user interface: no no no , industrial designer: eight to ten eight to ten hours . marketing: user interface: it can it should be weeks . industrial designer: n most no most of the time it 's not being used . project manager: yeah , so it 's user interface: yeah but y people do n't like to put it back in the base station all the time people leave wan na leave it on the couch so industrial designer: so when when you are making it on project manager: it 's used only when you industrial designer: mm . mm-hmm . no eight or eight or ten hours of working . user interface: ah , okay . industrial designer: if you are just leaving like that it 'll be much longer . user interface: okay . project manager: yeah . f weeks . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . that 's right . project manager: right . next slide ? industrial designer: yeah . and we are having the speakers regular chip for control . pricing is was a factor so that 's why we have gone for a regular chip only not the advanced chip . and uh that 's it . project manager: okay . okay . those really sounds very good . industrial designer: that 's right . project manager: nothing else to add ? user interface: it seems to be falling over . marketing: i l yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: i like i like it . maybe the the thing that convince me the less is the the multifunctional buttons . looks a bit industrial designer: you want to have more functional buttons ? marketing: looks a bit puzzled uh i dunno how to say that . industrial designer: you are not convinced . marketing: you the the b the buttons change h h their function depending if y it 's teletext or not industrial designer: not not many , we we want to keep it simple . so that this button fo is for teletext which is usually also the case , that usually there is a teletext button and once you press that , the channel buttons , they baco become the scrolling buttons . marketing: and the volume button will will become industrial designer: it 's up to you , means . project manager: well in fact b both will be could be useful , navigating through teletext . industrial designer: now that means let 's say this this can move the the larger digits and this can move the smaller digits . user interface: or can move between positions in the in the number . industrial designer: that 's right . project manager: yeah . marketing: and what about people who want to use digits ? butto real buttons ? project manager: wow . industrial designer: yeah . so there was there was a constraint that the surface area which we have on this banana on one side because of the shape . marketing: industrial designer: so we are targeting a segment which is which is just very trendy kind of thing , they they do n't care about the buttons any more . and anyway marketing: okay . because have you thought about configuration and all this kind of uh stuff ? user interface: it 's all automatic . marketing: it 's all automatic . user interface: yep . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: okay . okay yeah it 's fine . project manager: very good uh yeah marketing: w we are living in a wonderful world . project manager: you th yeah . user interface: uh . industrial designer: project manager: bananas everywhere . industrial designer: project manager: okay , so marketing: automatically configure . project manager: marketing: project manager: so we have to go through now evaluations . industrial designer: evalua yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so your slides are ready ? marketing: s project manager: uh you 're four i think . marketing: yeah . project manager: so this is one , which one is this one ? marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: okay . i i const i constructed a a list of criteria based on the on the general user requirements . and each criteria is will be evaluated it 's uh logical criteria so we must users must say i if it 's true or is or if it 's false in a in a scale ranging from zero to seven . industrial designer: why this strange factor of seven ? marketing: because i i 'm sorry . sorry . industrial designer: usually i have seen that scales are from one to ten . marketing: ah yeah . it 's from sorry , it 's from one to seven . it 's from from one to seven sorry . because it should be an even it should be an even uh scale , industrial designer: okay . project manager: num number industrial designer: okay . mm-hmm . marketing: and five is too short and nine is too long . industrial designer: okay . marketing: i 'm a i i 'm industrial designer: okay fine , got the idea . project manager: so to have in order to have enough granularity marketing: sorry ? project manager: it 's in order to have enough granularity in the evaluation . marketing: yeah yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: the variance is mi it 's is minimal . project manager: okay . industrial designer: okay , okay , great . marketing: i 'm um answering your question . industrial designer: okay . yeah yeah . marketing: okay . industrial designer: go ahead . marketing: and that 's the criteria i i found more useful . i think i sh i i could write the criteria in the on the whiteboard ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . sure . marketing: and we all four could range industrial designer: okay . yeah yeah . yeah . marketing: could evaluate the project manager: okay . marketing: industrial designer: so you can say fancy , handy . handy . marketing: okay let 's let 's evaluate if it 's fancy or industrial designer: yeah , it 's fancy , according to me . marketing: seven but user interface: project manager: yeah , six . industrial designer: project manager: s seven . industrial designer: seven . seven by me . project manager: six . marketing: i would say seven . industrial designer: okay . marketing: it 's quite fancy . industrial designer: so you can add seven plus six plus seven plus user interface: project manager: no , wait . user interface: yeah uh five . project manager: what do you say seven ? five ? industrial designer: five . user interface: five , maybe maybe maybe six it 's it 's i guess it 's project manager: okay , six point five . user interface: yeah . project manager: handy ? user interface: industrial designer: again i 'll give seven . project manager: seven . user interface: i 'd give it a six like i 'd i think it 's probably more handy than my current remote , 'cause of the scroll wheels marketing: six . industrial designer: yep . user interface: but maybe loses the point for not having you know the extra buttons when you reall if you do need them for some reason but you know you can always use your other remote . project manager: so seven , seven , industrial designer: seven for me . project manager: six , user interface: yeah . marketing: six . project manager: six point five . functional . user interface: industrial designer: i 'll give five . project manager: four . marketing: i would say project manager: industrial designer: user interface: well it depends when you say functional , do you mean it does what we want it to do , or d does what it does , you know , can it make you coffee ? marketing: everything ar project manager: uh for a remote control , does he have all the user interface: you know . marketing: mm everything user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: you could expect . marketing: it 's compared to the all industrial designer: that 's right . marketing: remote controls . user interface: that 's before industrial designer: that 's right . the standards . what is available in the market off the shelf . user interface: yeah . i have to say four . marketing: actually i do n't know what are the r the real specification of a of a universal remote contro user interface: well it 's not a universal remote . remember we 're focus we 're supposed to focus just on tvs . industrial designer: we marketing: ah it 's not an univer but it 's for all kind of tvs ? project manager: yeah . user interface: well all tvs but only t_ only tvs i guess . project manager: so it 's universal but for tvs . so s uh four ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: five . project manager: five ? user interface: four . project manager: four . marketing: four . four . industrial designer: so four point two ? user interface: just four . project manager: four . industrial designer: four . user interface: obviously there are some outliers so marketing: so four ? project manager: okay cool ? cool device . industrial designer: marketing: industrial designer: there i 'll give it seven . project manager: marketing: it means cool features , like new features actually . industrial designer: that 's right . user interface: which industrial designer: for a tv the most important feature which i felt was the locator which is a cool feature . and then the scroll buttons are again cool features . we do n't have lcd for it but that we decided we do n't want to have . project manager: yeah . seven . marketing: i would say five . user interface: i 'll say five . project manager: six . industrial designer: mm-hmm . seven . project manager: plus six , i say i said seven . user interface: yeah . project manager: so it 's six . user interface: s yeah . marketing: you said seven ? project manager: yeah . user interface: 'cause it 's five five seven seven so industrial designer: okay . user interface: uh , okay , definitely easy to use . industrial designer: definitely seven . user interface: seven . project manager: seven . seven . and you ? outl you are not lik outlier . marketing: five . user interface: project manager: seven industrial designer: project manager: okay okay okay okay . industrial designer: okay . marketing: sorry , i have them user interface: alright , now here 's the sixty million dollar question , project manager: user interface: well , twenty five twenty five euro question . project manager: of course i 'll buy the banana . user interface: what do you what do you guys reckon ? marketing: of cour of course the most difficult question for the end . project manager: well industrial designer: i 'll say five . user interface: hmm . industrial designer: i 'll say five . project manager: twenty five euros . cheap . industrial designer: marketing: i find it quite cheap actually . user interface: marketing: i dunno . if i i it depends , if you live in in switzerland or you live in project manager: yeah , so the target price is for all europe , or only for rich countries ? it 's more targeting u_k_ or marketing: i do n't know . wha the initial specifications were for the whole all europe or user interface: uh project manager: so this is selling costs , not production costs . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah this is the the initial specifications . project manager: yeah yeah sure . um five . marketing: i would say six . it 's quite cheap actually . user interface: i 'd say two . project manager: aw , should be nice in your industrial designer: why ? user interface: i do n't want a banana on my living room table , a banana remote . marketing: industrial designer: no but it 's really handy actually if you see . user interface: it is handy , it 's handy , but it it 's terrible . industrial designer: it 's it 's so handy . and then project manager: it 's kitsch . industrial designer: anyb anybody who comes here anybody who comes to your home he 'll at least ask once what is this . user interface: yeah . yeah , but it 's not a positive thing . industrial designer: it 's a very positive thing if you see like that . user interface: well , you know , it 's it 's handy , it 's ergonomic , but it 's a banana . project manager: well , do n't forget well , do n't for do n't forget who we 're targeting also who are f f who are wh industrial designer: youngsters . project manager: yeah , youngst youngst user interface: yeah but it says i , i would buy this , so . marketing: actually maybe project manager: no well yeah i if you would be young . marketing: yeah project manager: not telling that you are young . li li like a teenager for instance . user interface: no , it 's i . i would buy industrial designer: project manager: okay you 're you 're crazy teenager and you like fun things . industrial designer: you want to flaunt . project manager: yeah . user interface: industrial designer: you with your girlfriend or something . project manager: yeah , you want to show the beautiful banana you have . user interface: s s industrial designer: or might be it does some other kind of thing but user interface: still i i 'd say two . i do n't think i at any stage in my life i would want a banana remote control , really . industrial designer: uh yeah , crazy . project manager: okay so you s you give user interface: i can say , maybe there is a market for it , i dunno . project manager: oh yeah yeah i know i know . industrial designer: project manager: so you say two . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i say five . project manager: f i d i say five . you say ? marketing: i change the question . project manager: so what 's the new question ? industrial designer: and you have saved it ? marketing: so yeah upload the industrial designer: you 'll have to reload . project manager: uh yeah , i think so . user interface: okay , so , it depends if uh marketing: yeah it 's two different situations . if you really need an universal remote control or if you would change your remote control for a n for a new one . project manager: yeah that 's two different question . user interface: if i had t if i had to spend twenty five euro , if that was like my limit , maybe i would buy it . because the other twenty five euro remote controls are probably gon na look project manager: ugly . user interface: worse than a banana . industrial designer: they 're not going to be as and they they might not be a as easy as this marketing: user interface: and it yeah this is gon na f you know handy to use . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: so ? what now ? what range ? project manager: i stick to five . industrial designer: s user interface: although it still has it still has the word of course at the beginning industrial designer: i go slightly up . six . marketing: six . user interface: so i dunno . um . project manager: w we have six , five user interface: i 'd give it i 'd give it a project manager: three user interface: i give it a four now . industrial designer: marketing: six ? six ? project manager: so we are six , five , four industrial designer: six , five , four . marketing: six , so it 's uh five point five , or less . project manager: yeah . so industrial designer: okay . project manager: so and last question , will i change my rem change my remote control from mando banana . um , zero . no uh we ca n't . marketing: project manager: so one . user interface: marketing: actually yeah , i we project manager: well if . user interface: yeah . project manager: no uh let 's say i 'll put two . user interface: i 'd say three , i mean my remote control is kinda at home is pretty terrible . if it was change my remote control of my d_v_d_ player for a mando banana then i would be more inclined to project manager: it 's for the tv . user interface: but uh 'cause it 's really bad but uh marketing: user interface: i 'd say a three . industrial designer: i 'll still give it five . yeah . marketing: five ? project manager: two three five two three fi and two . marketing: you are romantic , really . industrial designer: so it 's somewhere three point five i think . marketing: i would say two . project manager: so it 's r yeah , three point five . marketing: who is the outlier ? user interface: marketing: wh wh you said five ? project manager: no no you say five , he is the outlier . industrial designer: no i said five . project manager: okay just just do a sum . marketing: i do n't know if it 's a user interface: it 's not very promising but you know we 're not young trendsetters . marketing: no because there are more yeah , we should n't sum like that . project manager: well maybe we should we should uh have a look globally glob marketing: because the the last two questions is much more important than the rest actually . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: otherwise we would n't we will not sell . user interface: is there some some formula you 're using that says you have to sum them up ? marketing: uh no i did n't anything . user interface: well just leave it at that then . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: oops . project manager: so maybe maybe w we can we should stick to general feeling . we can had uh have a out of these numbers , which which is that well we should go for it . marketing: yeah , the uh yeah . project manager: problem with connectors ? marketing: do you want me to sum user interface: no . industrial designer: yeah it 's it 's funny . marketing: o i think it 's not user interface: i think it it kind of you just lose information if you sum it , so . project manager: okay . so let 's move uh let 's move on . industrial designer: yeah , sure . project manager: okay , now now we have to mm to estimate uh the cost okay . so i prepare an excel sh uh an excel sheet . um well we are going to calculate the production costs . we should we should be below twelve point five . so i already uh put some pu some numbers here , okay . we are going to go through so this is the number the mm number of components we need for this thing . so it appears that there were things that we did n't thought about . uh and also things that i uh i d i forget to uh to put like solar cells . user interface: well we decided against the solar cells so industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: oh yeah finally we say no . industrial designer: solar cells , yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah , we said no to that . project manager: okay so let 's let 's go let 's go let go through all the lines . so hand dynamo . this something we did n't thought about . but user interface: you mean , charging it by shaking the banana . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think rechargeable batteries will take care of the power thing . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay so we we stick to battery , one . industrial designer: to bring the cost yeah . project manager: no kinetic also . i do n't i do n't see the difference between kinetic and dynamo . user interface: well maybe dynamo is like you have to actually project manager: ah you have to ah okay i see so kinetic is really uh shaking the banana . user interface: marketing: s user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: crazy . okay . so those banana is falling . let 's go ahead . so we we st only have one for battery . uh then for electronics um so i did n't put anything for the . industrial designer: so we have the regular chip on the print , which is one . project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and that 's it . project manager: okay . no so we hin industrial designer: and we have sample speaker . project manager: yeah so one . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . the cost of that is very high . project manager: ooh ye ye ye the cost is increasing . so we are user interface: well actually that that no that sample speaker is not we we 're not using that , we 're just using the the very beep simple beep , project manager: the beep . user interface: that s that sample thing is like the voice recording and everything . industrial designer: uh-huh . project manager: that 's what industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: okay so i 'll remove it . user interface: so yeah . project manager: s user interface: i say that yeah . project manager: so do n't we need a industrial designer: and we have sev project manager: oh there is no listing for r radio frequency thing . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so industrial designer: so we we 'll put some extras , if there is something . project manager: yeah maybe . we 'll see later . user interface: mm . project manager: okay so in for the case um i put single curved . industrial designer: okay . to reduce the cost , it 's okay . user interface: well , wait a second , project manager: because we have two things . user interface: no , it 's it 's double curved , it 's got a c , it 's uh industrial designer: oh it 's got all the directions project manager: no . industrial designer: so do n't worry . user interface: well d yeah it 's monotonic but marketing: industrial designer: it 's got a direction . user interface: it 's got but if you hold it if you hold it that way that 's two curved , one on this side , one on that side , but they 're opposite sides . project manager: well . what a what i if i put one here . user interface: this is actually i mean this probably marketing: actually what 's the differen user interface: this probably actually costs more than three project manager: yeah so let 's put one here in the then instead of single user interface: if you industrial designer: okay . okay . project manager: oka all right . user interface: yeah . project manager: so we stick to plastic , it cost nothing . industrial designer: yeah . that 's right . user interface: well no did n't we say we wanted to do a rubber project manager: no , it 's too no . user interface: if you drop it ? marketing: too expensive . project manager: it 's too expensive . we 're already at eleven . user interface: well when okay . well we we 'll come back we 'll come back and see if we can fit it in . project manager: okay so i put rubber one . okay so special colour , yellow . user interface: yeah . project manager: uh for the interface we have industrial designer: we do n't have any push buttons . user interface: no , we have two push buttons . project manager: we have three . industrial designer: no that is a scroll wheel itself , it 'll be put in that . user interface: huh . project manager: no no . we have two scroll , and we have three push buttons . industrial designer: ah okay , okay . user interface: uh . industrial designer: okay , okay . project manager: and user interface: okay it 's gon na have to be plastic . marketing: actually whe whe when you wrote regular chip you should put two , because there is another chip here . project manager: no it 's no chip . this is just radio frequency . th this is no chip . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah but industrial designer: no . there 's no chip there . marketing: you need industrial designer: it just emits the signal . project manager: it 's just industrial designer: and the receiver accepts it and that 's it . project manager: yeah . marketing: fo i it does nothing actually ? project manager: no . just only . industrial designer: just se sends the signal , that 's it . user interface: it 's a recharger thing and uh project manager: okay w we did n't think a thought about uh integrated scroll wheel push buttons . user interface: well i actually did um think about it myself but i thought you know because you could potentially you know you could be pushing it down as you scroll it for a instead of a turbo button project manager: yeah , user interface: but you know the turbo button does add that extra class . project manager: so yeah . user interface: you know . so i mean if we 're if we 're over budget then maybe we could we could rethink that . project manager: okay . so no lcd , so for we have no button supplements , right ? industrial designer: yep . no . project manager: uh well in fact could we could not we consider this button as a button supplement because oh no , these are these are for colours , co and special forms , special colours and special materials . user interface: yeah . no we 're not project manager: so user interface: we do n't need anything special for the buttons . project manager: okay so we are over budget . industrial designer: yeah . so first thing which we should take care of is , user interface: make it plastic instead of rubber . industrial designer: instead of rubber , let it be plastic . project manager: yeah . user interface: and then we 're basically o on budget except for you know ten cents . industrial designer: and uh that much money will be required for the base station , which is not there . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: so mayb in fact n we have to put two here marketing: project manager: because it cost nothing . user interface: yeah well pl the base station is made out of m many units of plastic . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: that 's right . project manager: industrial designer: so might be ninety centimes for the the remaining things which the cord and everything which 'll go project manager: exactly exactly so we have margin for that stuff . user interface: does that include charging circuitry and everything ? industrial designer: that 's right . project manager: yeah maybe . okay good . wha industrial designer: yeah . project manager: excellent . user interface: so what do we do with the extra profits ? project manager: um we 'll invest in r_ and d_ . user interface: okay . marketing: user interface: the next fruit . project manager: yeah . so well we 're under the the the cost . so we can go to through to project evaluation . marketing: okay so now we have a product which nobody would would buy . would yeah , would buy . project manager: sorry ? user interface: no we have a product which none of us would buy . marketing: yeah because th th the evaluation project project manager: which is different . which is different . none of us will buy it . user interface: no it 's people in in in milan and uh in paris that are gon na buy it . marketing: ah would buy , yeah . user interface: we 're n marketing: massively , yeah . user interface: yeah . we 're not in milan or paris . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . okay . uh you have been in milan a couple of times , so . project manager: this is a battery . user interface: actually there were a lot of industrial designer: marketing: and you said the lowest . user interface: project manager: this is what we which you can mm industrial designer: s detachable battery . project manager: it did yeah . user interface: that 's 'cause i 'm sick of milan . marketing: yeah , for the batteries project manager: extra battery , yeah . industrial designer: user interface: okay so um project process . project manager: exac well in fact i i did not know i did n't know really what to say here . marketing: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: if uh if you have any ideas of what we can we can say . so i do n't i do n't i do n't understand what what they mean by satisfaction um and for and for example . user interface: project manager: should it be more like um like a status of of the these meetings in fact . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah well in fact uh we we use a little bit the white board and the digital pen , not that much . user interface: i dunno i think we had a fair bit of creativity . project manager: oh yeah it 's really creative . user interface: and uh but i think one thing we m missed out of this whole process was a um like a focus group with the actual people we 're targeting . industrial designer: user interface: we needed some of these kind of young trendsetters to come in and play with the banana and you know see if they project manager: yeah . industrial designer: they like that . user interface: see if they like it . project manager: yeah maybe we should go through , yeah an uh evaluation . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: because yeah the evaluation for us is is kind of pointless . industrial designer: biased . project manager: so maybe you should we should do a kinda evaluation in the streets like asking to young peoples well , do you like to have a banana as a remote control . user interface: yeah . because it it would also be interesting to uh you to know find out if we have a market in really young children as well , to see you know how to how to market this thing . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: 'cause you know if well i mean maybe you do n't wan na give all your kids their own remote because they 'll be changing the channel all the time but you know maybe in some households where there is you know a tv for each kid , then you know , banana remote control could be fun for them as well . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: might have to draw a face on it . so but i think that 's something we need to to work on next time is really finding out more about the target market . project manager: yep . any any new ideas we could uh we could investigate next time ? dunno , oranges ? industrial designer: yeah . the cost of the thing can be made more than might be . because i think it 's just the optimal , what we have done for the cost which we are looking forward to . user interface: yeah . i think there are ways we could maybe simplify the industrial designer: interface . user interface: well just the the the circuit board that we 're using inside , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i 'm not sure really how complicated our um industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: our needs are . i mean all we have is two push buttons and two scrollers , do we really need an integrated circuit to project manager: hmm . user interface: you know to process that . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: so more general remote control instead of just focusing on uh on tv . industrial designer: that 's right . marketing: the complexity should n't be much higher . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: for you said if it good for d_v_d_ then i would user interface: and also fo you know for mood lighting and and stuff , that would be rather cool . i think that 's actually something that should be in version two , is the ability to you know to control things other than the tv industrial designer: integrate . user interface: and not just electronic equipment but you know the whole environment of the room . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: project manager: okay . very good . so industrial designer: so what else ? project manager: well done . i think we we can go industrial designer: okay . home ? project manager: home . industrial designer: happily satisfied . marketing: project manager: yeah . maybe maybe we can hassle the the production department to to make a a real prototype that we can use at home to to evaluate . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: okay so thanks very much . user interface: yep . project manager: bye . user interface: okay . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: thank you . marketing: bye .

marketing constructed a list of evaluation criteria based on the general user requirement . the group had an evaluation on the prototype , and they agreed it was a fancy , handy , and cool device that was easy to use . while user interface disagreed with the criteria on whether people would change their remote control for a new one because he thought the banana did n't have a positive impression and it might have a market for young people .

why did user interface change from giving two out of seven to giving four when discussing evaluation criteria on whether people would buy the remote control ? </s> project manager: marketing: project manager: okay . good afternoon again . user interface: project manager: so we should have our final meeting about the detail designed of detail design of the product of the remote control . um so here is the agenda for today . uh uh just going to go quickly through the minutes of the last last uh meeting then we have a p presentation of prototype of you two , sounds interesting . and we 'll have um presentation of evaluation crit criteria by ou our marketing experts . then we 'll have to go through finance evaluation of the of the cost of the thing and um hopefully uh we should fit the target o tw of twelve point five uh uh euro . okay . so let 's go . uh if i go quickly through the minutes of the last meeting . so we went through th uh w we took this following decisions . no lcd , no speech recognition technology , okay , we went through a b to a banana look and feel for the remote control . we went through the use of wheels and but buttons . and also the use of a basis station for battery ch charging and uh also to um call the to call the mot mote remote control when it is lost . okay . um . good . so guys let this uh wonderful thing . industrial designer: okay so we can go to the slides . project manager: oh yeah . sorry . um . industrial designer: yeah . number three . oh number two sorry . project manager: which is industrial designer: so final design . final design . okay so michael you can go ahead . user interface: yeah so uh following our decision to uh make a yellow well to make a banana project manager: yeah can you show it to the the camera maybe . user interface: remote okay so we actually have a industrial designer: you can pull it out first , maybe . user interface: we 've well first first of all we made a an attractive base station uh with a banana leaf uh look and feel um and uh project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: bana sit the banana sits in there k you know nicely weighted so that it 's not gon na tip over and um this is the remote itself , it 's kind of it 's it 's ergonomic , it fits in the hand uh rather well . we 've got the two uh uh scroll wheels here which you know one on the the left for the uh volume and the one on the right for for the channel and uh underneath we have the uh the turbo button which is in like a nice uh trigger position for you know for pressing quite naturally . project manager: what 's the use uh of the t turbo button already ? user interface: this is when you when you uh are scrolling the uh through the channels you can tell it to to skip th past channels that you quickly rather th project manager: ah yeah yeah an then you stop when you stop it stops . user interface: yeah . well when you stop scrolling the wheel it stops . but normally with uh it will just uh s stay on each station briefly so you can see the the picture . industrial designer: uh project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: and we we do have one more functionality . if you take the banana as such and uh you press the turbo button , so it switch ons the switch ons the tv . user interface: the tv yeah . project manager: which one ? user interface: the s the turbo button . industrial designer: the turbo button . project manager: okay . user interface: so rather than having uh an extra button for um for the on off switch you just use the turbo button . industrial designer: additional button . marketing: what this button for ? user interface: this is a teletext button . so once you press that then you get teletext marketing: okay . user interface: and you can use the the channel selector scroll wheel as uh project manager: to navigate it through th through teletext . user interface: to navigate yeah . marketing: but if you want to go to page seven hundred ? industrial designer: that 's right , that 's right . user interface: yeah . project manager: with the wheel it 's easy . marketing: how man user interface: well then you can you you have like a little uh number selection thing , you press the the the teletext button uh to move between uh the fields and then you can just scroll the number back and forth so you have s you go you scroll to seven and then zero zero and then you can uh marketing: i do n't understand it . can you repeat it ? user interface: well you can you can press press the teletext button industrial designer: user interface: and then you then you can you can f industrial designer: so then then both the scroll buttons they are for teletext browsing . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and you can tele marketing: ah okay okay . okay . okay okay . industrial designer: yeah , user interface: mm uh industrial designer: once you press the teletext button then the scroll buttons they are more for teletext , they are no more for channel or vol volume . marketing: okay . i see . i see . okay . okay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and this is the uh the infrared uh port . industrial designer: that 's right . user interface: also the top of the banana . project manager: excellent . user interface: so . and then we have industrial designer: yeah . user interface: in the uh in the base station we have the the button at the front for uh for calling the uh the banana . project manager: calling . excellent . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and the the leaves plays the roles of of antennas ? user interface: actually they do . project manager: oh . user interface: that 's that 's yeah that 's uh that 's form and function in the one in the one uh object . industrial designer: yeah . so it always means , whatever the rays goes by they they get reflected and then you are having a better coverage . user interface: industrial designer: it 's like antennas . user interface: yeah . so . marketing: user interface: but yeah that 's um that 's just like that 's an attractive um base station . project manager: great . user interface: so . project manager: so , what else ? user interface: okay . industrial designer: and for the power source we are having solar cells and rechargeable batteries and this and uh the basis station is going to have the input from the mm power line for for charging the batteries . marketing: is it really weight ? is it light or industrial designer: it is very light . project manager: yeah , they 're light . user interface: it 's it 's uh it 's about the weight of a banana . marketing: okay . project manager: marketing: okay . user interface: you know , to give you the correct look and feel . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: ok industrial designer: and we have put these different colours so that people do n't mistake them mistake it as a banana . user interface: industrial designer: otherwise it 's you know a child comes and so marketing: okay . yeah yeah yeah , i see . i under i understand . user interface: i think a child would try to eat it anyway , so maybe we should industrial designer: yeah . user interface: consider that . maybe health and safety aspects . project manager: ah yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: industrial designer: oh we did n't think of that yet . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: so for the power source , apparently you still you you want to use both solar cells and batteries . industrial designer: oh yeah that 's right . project manager: uh you mean okay . so user interface: i do n't really know if the solar cells are actually necessary any more if you have a recharging base station . project manager: yeah , where are going to where are you are you going to place them ? industrial designer: mm-hmm mm-hmm . it 'll it 'll be always at top somewhere at there . user interface: if i was gon na place them i 'd put them on the on the top here since that 's like uh the black bit project manager: you have enough surface ? you user interface: but yeah i do n't i really do n't think it 's necessary to have the solar cells anymore . industrial designer: yeah because now we are having rechargeable batteries project manager: okay . user interface: mm . industrial designer: so that that is . project manager: what will be the autonomy ? roughly ? user interface: the what sorry ? project manager: the autonomy . autonomy . user interface: what do you mean ? project manager: uh i mean how long does i how how how long can it be held off a station ? marketing: how long the how long the bit the batteries long . user interface: ah . ah . a long time . project manager: yeah . a long user interface: no no no , industrial designer: eight to ten eight to ten hours . marketing: user interface: it can it should be weeks . industrial designer: n most no most of the time it 's not being used . project manager: yeah , so it 's user interface: yeah but y people do n't like to put it back in the base station all the time people leave wan na leave it on the couch so industrial designer: so when when you are making it on project manager: it 's used only when you industrial designer: mm . mm-hmm . no eight or eight or ten hours of working . user interface: ah , okay . industrial designer: if you are just leaving like that it 'll be much longer . user interface: okay . project manager: yeah . f weeks . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . that 's right . project manager: right . next slide ? industrial designer: yeah . and we are having the speakers regular chip for control . pricing is was a factor so that 's why we have gone for a regular chip only not the advanced chip . and uh that 's it . project manager: okay . okay . those really sounds very good . industrial designer: that 's right . project manager: nothing else to add ? user interface: it seems to be falling over . marketing: i l yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: i like i like it . maybe the the thing that convince me the less is the the multifunctional buttons . looks a bit industrial designer: you want to have more functional buttons ? marketing: looks a bit puzzled uh i dunno how to say that . industrial designer: you are not convinced . marketing: you the the b the buttons change h h their function depending if y it 's teletext or not industrial designer: not not many , we we want to keep it simple . so that this button fo is for teletext which is usually also the case , that usually there is a teletext button and once you press that , the channel buttons , they baco become the scrolling buttons . marketing: and the volume button will will become industrial designer: it 's up to you , means . project manager: well in fact b both will be could be useful , navigating through teletext . industrial designer: now that means let 's say this this can move the the larger digits and this can move the smaller digits . user interface: or can move between positions in the in the number . industrial designer: that 's right . project manager: yeah . marketing: and what about people who want to use digits ? butto real buttons ? project manager: wow . industrial designer: yeah . so there was there was a constraint that the surface area which we have on this banana on one side because of the shape . marketing: industrial designer: so we are targeting a segment which is which is just very trendy kind of thing , they they do n't care about the buttons any more . and anyway marketing: okay . because have you thought about configuration and all this kind of uh stuff ? user interface: it 's all automatic . marketing: it 's all automatic . user interface: yep . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: okay . okay yeah it 's fine . project manager: very good uh yeah marketing: w we are living in a wonderful world . project manager: you th yeah . user interface: uh . industrial designer: project manager: bananas everywhere . industrial designer: project manager: okay , so marketing: automatically configure . project manager: marketing: project manager: so we have to go through now evaluations . industrial designer: evalua yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so your slides are ready ? marketing: s project manager: uh you 're four i think . marketing: yeah . project manager: so this is one , which one is this one ? marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: okay . i i const i constructed a a list of criteria based on the on the general user requirements . and each criteria is will be evaluated it 's uh logical criteria so we must users must say i if it 's true or is or if it 's false in a in a scale ranging from zero to seven . industrial designer: why this strange factor of seven ? marketing: because i i 'm sorry . sorry . industrial designer: usually i have seen that scales are from one to ten . marketing: ah yeah . it 's from sorry , it 's from one to seven . it 's from from one to seven sorry . because it should be an even it should be an even uh scale , industrial designer: okay . project manager: num number industrial designer: okay . mm-hmm . marketing: and five is too short and nine is too long . industrial designer: okay . marketing: i 'm a i i 'm industrial designer: okay fine , got the idea . project manager: so to have in order to have enough granularity marketing: sorry ? project manager: it 's in order to have enough granularity in the evaluation . marketing: yeah yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: the variance is mi it 's is minimal . project manager: okay . industrial designer: okay , okay , great . marketing: i 'm um answering your question . industrial designer: okay . yeah yeah . marketing: okay . industrial designer: go ahead . marketing: and that 's the criteria i i found more useful . i think i sh i i could write the criteria in the on the whiteboard ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . sure . marketing: and we all four could range industrial designer: okay . yeah yeah . yeah . marketing: could evaluate the project manager: okay . marketing: industrial designer: so you can say fancy , handy . handy . marketing: okay let 's let 's evaluate if it 's fancy or industrial designer: yeah , it 's fancy , according to me . marketing: seven but user interface: project manager: yeah , six . industrial designer: project manager: s seven . industrial designer: seven . seven by me . project manager: six . marketing: i would say seven . industrial designer: okay . marketing: it 's quite fancy . industrial designer: so you can add seven plus six plus seven plus user interface: project manager: no , wait . user interface: yeah uh five . project manager: what do you say seven ? five ? industrial designer: five . user interface: five , maybe maybe maybe six it 's it 's i guess it 's project manager: okay , six point five . user interface: yeah . project manager: handy ? user interface: industrial designer: again i 'll give seven . project manager: seven . user interface: i 'd give it a six like i 'd i think it 's probably more handy than my current remote , 'cause of the scroll wheels marketing: six . industrial designer: yep . user interface: but maybe loses the point for not having you know the extra buttons when you reall if you do need them for some reason but you know you can always use your other remote . project manager: so seven , seven , industrial designer: seven for me . project manager: six , user interface: yeah . marketing: six . project manager: six point five . functional . user interface: industrial designer: i 'll give five . project manager: four . marketing: i would say project manager: industrial designer: user interface: well it depends when you say functional , do you mean it does what we want it to do , or d does what it does , you know , can it make you coffee ? marketing: everything ar project manager: uh for a remote control , does he have all the user interface: you know . marketing: mm everything user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: you could expect . marketing: it 's compared to the all industrial designer: that 's right . marketing: remote controls . user interface: that 's before industrial designer: that 's right . the standards . what is available in the market off the shelf . user interface: yeah . i have to say four . marketing: actually i do n't know what are the r the real specification of a of a universal remote contro user interface: well it 's not a universal remote . remember we 're focus we 're supposed to focus just on tvs . industrial designer: we marketing: ah it 's not an univer but it 's for all kind of tvs ? project manager: yeah . user interface: well all tvs but only t_ only tvs i guess . project manager: so it 's universal but for tvs . so s uh four ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: five . project manager: five ? user interface: four . project manager: four . marketing: four . four . industrial designer: so four point two ? user interface: just four . project manager: four . industrial designer: four . user interface: obviously there are some outliers so marketing: so four ? project manager: okay cool ? cool device . industrial designer: marketing: industrial designer: there i 'll give it seven . project manager: marketing: it means cool features , like new features actually . industrial designer: that 's right . user interface: which industrial designer: for a tv the most important feature which i felt was the locator which is a cool feature . and then the scroll buttons are again cool features . we do n't have lcd for it but that we decided we do n't want to have . project manager: yeah . seven . marketing: i would say five . user interface: i 'll say five . project manager: six . industrial designer: mm-hmm . seven . project manager: plus six , i say i said seven . user interface: yeah . project manager: so it 's six . user interface: s yeah . marketing: you said seven ? project manager: yeah . user interface: 'cause it 's five five seven seven so industrial designer: okay . user interface: uh , okay , definitely easy to use . industrial designer: definitely seven . user interface: seven . project manager: seven . seven . and you ? outl you are not lik outlier . marketing: five . user interface: project manager: seven industrial designer: project manager: okay okay okay okay . industrial designer: okay . marketing: sorry , i have them user interface: alright , now here 's the sixty million dollar question , project manager: user interface: well , twenty five twenty five euro question . project manager: of course i 'll buy the banana . user interface: what do you what do you guys reckon ? marketing: of cour of course the most difficult question for the end . project manager: well industrial designer: i 'll say five . user interface: hmm . industrial designer: i 'll say five . project manager: twenty five euros . cheap . industrial designer: marketing: i find it quite cheap actually . user interface: marketing: i dunno . if i i it depends , if you live in in switzerland or you live in project manager: yeah , so the target price is for all europe , or only for rich countries ? it 's more targeting u_k_ or marketing: i do n't know . wha the initial specifications were for the whole all europe or user interface: uh project manager: so this is selling costs , not production costs . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah this is the the initial specifications . project manager: yeah yeah sure . um five . marketing: i would say six . it 's quite cheap actually . user interface: i 'd say two . project manager: aw , should be nice in your industrial designer: why ? user interface: i do n't want a banana on my living room table , a banana remote . marketing: industrial designer: no but it 's really handy actually if you see . user interface: it is handy , it 's handy , but it it 's terrible . industrial designer: it 's it 's so handy . and then project manager: it 's kitsch . industrial designer: anyb anybody who comes here anybody who comes to your home he 'll at least ask once what is this . user interface: yeah . yeah , but it 's not a positive thing . industrial designer: it 's a very positive thing if you see like that . user interface: well , you know , it 's it 's handy , it 's ergonomic , but it 's a banana . project manager: well , do n't forget well , do n't for do n't forget who we 're targeting also who are f f who are wh industrial designer: youngsters . project manager: yeah , youngst youngst user interface: yeah but it says i , i would buy this , so . marketing: actually maybe project manager: no well yeah i if you would be young . marketing: yeah project manager: not telling that you are young . li li like a teenager for instance . user interface: no , it 's i . i would buy industrial designer: project manager: okay you 're you 're crazy teenager and you like fun things . industrial designer: you want to flaunt . project manager: yeah . user interface: industrial designer: you with your girlfriend or something . project manager: yeah , you want to show the beautiful banana you have . user interface: s s industrial designer: or might be it does some other kind of thing but user interface: still i i 'd say two . i do n't think i at any stage in my life i would want a banana remote control , really . industrial designer: uh yeah , crazy . project manager: okay so you s you give user interface: i can say , maybe there is a market for it , i dunno . project manager: oh yeah yeah i know i know . industrial designer: project manager: so you say two . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i say five . project manager: f i d i say five . you say ? marketing: i change the question . project manager: so what 's the new question ? industrial designer: and you have saved it ? marketing: so yeah upload the industrial designer: you 'll have to reload . project manager: uh yeah , i think so . user interface: okay , so , it depends if uh marketing: yeah it 's two different situations . if you really need an universal remote control or if you would change your remote control for a n for a new one . project manager: yeah that 's two different question . user interface: if i had t if i had to spend twenty five euro , if that was like my limit , maybe i would buy it . because the other twenty five euro remote controls are probably gon na look project manager: ugly . user interface: worse than a banana . industrial designer: they 're not going to be as and they they might not be a as easy as this marketing: user interface: and it yeah this is gon na f you know handy to use . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: so ? what now ? what range ? project manager: i stick to five . industrial designer: s user interface: although it still has it still has the word of course at the beginning industrial designer: i go slightly up . six . marketing: six . user interface: so i dunno . um . project manager: w we have six , five user interface: i 'd give it i 'd give it a project manager: three user interface: i give it a four now . industrial designer: marketing: six ? six ? project manager: so we are six , five , four industrial designer: six , five , four . marketing: six , so it 's uh five point five , or less . project manager: yeah . so industrial designer: okay . project manager: so and last question , will i change my rem change my remote control from mando banana . um , zero . no uh we ca n't . marketing: project manager: so one . user interface: marketing: actually yeah , i we project manager: well if . user interface: yeah . project manager: no uh let 's say i 'll put two . user interface: i 'd say three , i mean my remote control is kinda at home is pretty terrible . if it was change my remote control of my d_v_d_ player for a mando banana then i would be more inclined to project manager: it 's for the tv . user interface: but uh 'cause it 's really bad but uh marketing: user interface: i 'd say a three . industrial designer: i 'll still give it five . yeah . marketing: five ? project manager: two three five two three fi and two . marketing: you are romantic , really . industrial designer: so it 's somewhere three point five i think . marketing: i would say two . project manager: so it 's r yeah , three point five . marketing: who is the outlier ? user interface: marketing: wh wh you said five ? project manager: no no you say five , he is the outlier . industrial designer: no i said five . project manager: okay just just do a sum . marketing: i do n't know if it 's a user interface: it 's not very promising but you know we 're not young trendsetters . marketing: no because there are more yeah , we should n't sum like that . project manager: well maybe we should we should uh have a look globally glob marketing: because the the last two questions is much more important than the rest actually . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: otherwise we would n't we will not sell . user interface: is there some some formula you 're using that says you have to sum them up ? marketing: uh no i did n't anything . user interface: well just leave it at that then . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: oops . project manager: so maybe maybe w we can we should stick to general feeling . we can had uh have a out of these numbers , which which is that well we should go for it . marketing: yeah , the uh yeah . project manager: problem with connectors ? marketing: do you want me to sum user interface: no . industrial designer: yeah it 's it 's funny . marketing: o i think it 's not user interface: i think it it kind of you just lose information if you sum it , so . project manager: okay . so let 's move uh let 's move on . industrial designer: yeah , sure . project manager: okay , now now we have to mm to estimate uh the cost okay . so i prepare an excel sh uh an excel sheet . um well we are going to calculate the production costs . we should we should be below twelve point five . so i already uh put some pu some numbers here , okay . we are going to go through so this is the number the mm number of components we need for this thing . so it appears that there were things that we did n't thought about . uh and also things that i uh i d i forget to uh to put like solar cells . user interface: well we decided against the solar cells so industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: oh yeah finally we say no . industrial designer: solar cells , yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah , we said no to that . project manager: okay so let 's let 's go let 's go let go through all the lines . so hand dynamo . this something we did n't thought about . but user interface: you mean , charging it by shaking the banana . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think rechargeable batteries will take care of the power thing . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay so we we stick to battery , one . industrial designer: to bring the cost yeah . project manager: no kinetic also . i do n't i do n't see the difference between kinetic and dynamo . user interface: well maybe dynamo is like you have to actually project manager: ah you have to ah okay i see so kinetic is really uh shaking the banana . user interface: marketing: s user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: crazy . okay . so those banana is falling . let 's go ahead . so we we st only have one for battery . uh then for electronics um so i did n't put anything for the . industrial designer: so we have the regular chip on the print , which is one . project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and that 's it . project manager: okay . no so we hin industrial designer: and we have sample speaker . project manager: yeah so one . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . the cost of that is very high . project manager: ooh ye ye ye the cost is increasing . so we are user interface: well actually that that no that sample speaker is not we we 're not using that , we 're just using the the very beep simple beep , project manager: the beep . user interface: that s that sample thing is like the voice recording and everything . industrial designer: uh-huh . project manager: that 's what industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: okay so i 'll remove it . user interface: so yeah . project manager: s user interface: i say that yeah . project manager: so do n't we need a industrial designer: and we have sev project manager: oh there is no listing for r radio frequency thing . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so industrial designer: so we we 'll put some extras , if there is something . project manager: yeah maybe . we 'll see later . user interface: mm . project manager: okay so in for the case um i put single curved . industrial designer: okay . to reduce the cost , it 's okay . user interface: well , wait a second , project manager: because we have two things . user interface: no , it 's it 's double curved , it 's got a c , it 's uh industrial designer: oh it 's got all the directions project manager: no . industrial designer: so do n't worry . user interface: well d yeah it 's monotonic but marketing: industrial designer: it 's got a direction . user interface: it 's got but if you hold it if you hold it that way that 's two curved , one on this side , one on that side , but they 're opposite sides . project manager: well . what a what i if i put one here . user interface: this is actually i mean this probably marketing: actually what 's the differen user interface: this probably actually costs more than three project manager: yeah so let 's put one here in the then instead of single user interface: if you industrial designer: okay . okay . project manager: oka all right . user interface: yeah . project manager: so we stick to plastic , it cost nothing . industrial designer: yeah . that 's right . user interface: well no did n't we say we wanted to do a rubber project manager: no , it 's too no . user interface: if you drop it ? marketing: too expensive . project manager: it 's too expensive . we 're already at eleven . user interface: well when okay . well we we 'll come back we 'll come back and see if we can fit it in . project manager: okay so i put rubber one . okay so special colour , yellow . user interface: yeah . project manager: uh for the interface we have industrial designer: we do n't have any push buttons . user interface: no , we have two push buttons . project manager: we have three . industrial designer: no that is a scroll wheel itself , it 'll be put in that . user interface: huh . project manager: no no . we have two scroll , and we have three push buttons . industrial designer: ah okay , okay . user interface: uh . industrial designer: okay , okay . project manager: and user interface: okay it 's gon na have to be plastic . marketing: actually whe whe when you wrote regular chip you should put two , because there is another chip here . project manager: no it 's no chip . this is just radio frequency . th this is no chip . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah but industrial designer: no . there 's no chip there . marketing: you need industrial designer: it just emits the signal . project manager: it 's just industrial designer: and the receiver accepts it and that 's it . project manager: yeah . marketing: fo i it does nothing actually ? project manager: no . just only . industrial designer: just se sends the signal , that 's it . user interface: it 's a recharger thing and uh project manager: okay w we did n't think a thought about uh integrated scroll wheel push buttons . user interface: well i actually did um think about it myself but i thought you know because you could potentially you know you could be pushing it down as you scroll it for a instead of a turbo button project manager: yeah , user interface: but you know the turbo button does add that extra class . project manager: so yeah . user interface: you know . so i mean if we 're if we 're over budget then maybe we could we could rethink that . project manager: okay . so no lcd , so for we have no button supplements , right ? industrial designer: yep . no . project manager: uh well in fact could we could not we consider this button as a button supplement because oh no , these are these are for colours , co and special forms , special colours and special materials . user interface: yeah . no we 're not project manager: so user interface: we do n't need anything special for the buttons . project manager: okay so we are over budget . industrial designer: yeah . so first thing which we should take care of is , user interface: make it plastic instead of rubber . industrial designer: instead of rubber , let it be plastic . project manager: yeah . user interface: and then we 're basically o on budget except for you know ten cents . industrial designer: and uh that much money will be required for the base station , which is not there . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: so mayb in fact n we have to put two here marketing: project manager: because it cost nothing . user interface: yeah well pl the base station is made out of m many units of plastic . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: that 's right . project manager: industrial designer: so might be ninety centimes for the the remaining things which the cord and everything which 'll go project manager: exactly exactly so we have margin for that stuff . user interface: does that include charging circuitry and everything ? industrial designer: that 's right . project manager: yeah maybe . okay good . wha industrial designer: yeah . project manager: excellent . user interface: so what do we do with the extra profits ? project manager: um we 'll invest in r_ and d_ . user interface: okay . marketing: user interface: the next fruit . project manager: yeah . so well we 're under the the the cost . so we can go to through to project evaluation . marketing: okay so now we have a product which nobody would would buy . would yeah , would buy . project manager: sorry ? user interface: no we have a product which none of us would buy . marketing: yeah because th th the evaluation project project manager: which is different . which is different . none of us will buy it . user interface: no it 's people in in in milan and uh in paris that are gon na buy it . marketing: ah would buy , yeah . user interface: we 're n marketing: massively , yeah . user interface: yeah . we 're not in milan or paris . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . okay . uh you have been in milan a couple of times , so . project manager: this is a battery . user interface: actually there were a lot of industrial designer: marketing: and you said the lowest . user interface: project manager: this is what we which you can mm industrial designer: s detachable battery . project manager: it did yeah . user interface: that 's 'cause i 'm sick of milan . marketing: yeah , for the batteries project manager: extra battery , yeah . industrial designer: user interface: okay so um project process . project manager: exac well in fact i i did not know i did n't know really what to say here . marketing: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: if uh if you have any ideas of what we can we can say . so i do n't i do n't i do n't understand what what they mean by satisfaction um and for and for example . user interface: project manager: should it be more like um like a status of of the these meetings in fact . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah well in fact uh we we use a little bit the white board and the digital pen , not that much . user interface: i dunno i think we had a fair bit of creativity . project manager: oh yeah it 's really creative . user interface: and uh but i think one thing we m missed out of this whole process was a um like a focus group with the actual people we 're targeting . industrial designer: user interface: we needed some of these kind of young trendsetters to come in and play with the banana and you know see if they project manager: yeah . industrial designer: they like that . user interface: see if they like it . project manager: yeah maybe we should go through , yeah an uh evaluation . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: because yeah the evaluation for us is is kind of pointless . industrial designer: biased . project manager: so maybe you should we should do a kinda evaluation in the streets like asking to young peoples well , do you like to have a banana as a remote control . user interface: yeah . because it it would also be interesting to uh you to know find out if we have a market in really young children as well , to see you know how to how to market this thing . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: 'cause you know if well i mean maybe you do n't wan na give all your kids their own remote because they 'll be changing the channel all the time but you know maybe in some households where there is you know a tv for each kid , then you know , banana remote control could be fun for them as well . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: might have to draw a face on it . so but i think that 's something we need to to work on next time is really finding out more about the target market . project manager: yep . any any new ideas we could uh we could investigate next time ? dunno , oranges ? industrial designer: yeah . the cost of the thing can be made more than might be . because i think it 's just the optimal , what we have done for the cost which we are looking forward to . user interface: yeah . i think there are ways we could maybe simplify the industrial designer: interface . user interface: well just the the the circuit board that we 're using inside , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i 'm not sure really how complicated our um industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: our needs are . i mean all we have is two push buttons and two scrollers , do we really need an integrated circuit to project manager: hmm . user interface: you know to process that . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: so more general remote control instead of just focusing on uh on tv . industrial designer: that 's right . marketing: the complexity should n't be much higher . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: for you said if it good for d_v_d_ then i would user interface: and also fo you know for mood lighting and and stuff , that would be rather cool . i think that 's actually something that should be in version two , is the ability to you know to control things other than the tv industrial designer: integrate . user interface: and not just electronic equipment but you know the whole environment of the room . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: project manager: okay . very good . so industrial designer: so what else ? project manager: well done . i think we we can go industrial designer: okay . home ? project manager: home . industrial designer: happily satisfied . marketing: project manager: yeah . maybe maybe we can hassle the the production department to to make a a real prototype that we can use at home to to evaluate . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: okay so thanks very much . user interface: yep . project manager: bye . user interface: okay . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: thank you . marketing: bye .

when discussing the criteria on whether people would change their remote control , user interface gave a two out of seven on it because of the negative impression the banana brought . in fact , user interface did n't want a banana on the living room table though the product was handy , unless other twenty-five-euro remote controls looked ugly . while , user interface thought it still had the word of its feature at the beginning , so user interface changed to give four on this criteria question .

summarize the group discussion about the cost estimation . </s> project manager: marketing: project manager: okay . good afternoon again . user interface: project manager: so we should have our final meeting about the detail designed of detail design of the product of the remote control . um so here is the agenda for today . uh uh just going to go quickly through the minutes of the last last uh meeting then we have a p presentation of prototype of you two , sounds interesting . and we 'll have um presentation of evaluation crit criteria by ou our marketing experts . then we 'll have to go through finance evaluation of the of the cost of the thing and um hopefully uh we should fit the target o tw of twelve point five uh uh euro . okay . so let 's go . uh if i go quickly through the minutes of the last meeting . so we went through th uh w we took this following decisions . no lcd , no speech recognition technology , okay , we went through a b to a banana look and feel for the remote control . we went through the use of wheels and but buttons . and also the use of a basis station for battery ch charging and uh also to um call the to call the mot mote remote control when it is lost . okay . um . good . so guys let this uh wonderful thing . industrial designer: okay so we can go to the slides . project manager: oh yeah . sorry . um . industrial designer: yeah . number three . oh number two sorry . project manager: which is industrial designer: so final design . final design . okay so michael you can go ahead . user interface: yeah so uh following our decision to uh make a yellow well to make a banana project manager: yeah can you show it to the the camera maybe . user interface: remote okay so we actually have a industrial designer: you can pull it out first , maybe . user interface: we 've well first first of all we made a an attractive base station uh with a banana leaf uh look and feel um and uh project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: bana sit the banana sits in there k you know nicely weighted so that it 's not gon na tip over and um this is the remote itself , it 's kind of it 's it 's ergonomic , it fits in the hand uh rather well . we 've got the two uh uh scroll wheels here which you know one on the the left for the uh volume and the one on the right for for the channel and uh underneath we have the uh the turbo button which is in like a nice uh trigger position for you know for pressing quite naturally . project manager: what 's the use uh of the t turbo button already ? user interface: this is when you when you uh are scrolling the uh through the channels you can tell it to to skip th past channels that you quickly rather th project manager: ah yeah yeah an then you stop when you stop it stops . user interface: yeah . well when you stop scrolling the wheel it stops . but normally with uh it will just uh s stay on each station briefly so you can see the the picture . industrial designer: uh project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: and we we do have one more functionality . if you take the banana as such and uh you press the turbo button , so it switch ons the switch ons the tv . user interface: the tv yeah . project manager: which one ? user interface: the s the turbo button . industrial designer: the turbo button . project manager: okay . user interface: so rather than having uh an extra button for um for the on off switch you just use the turbo button . industrial designer: additional button . marketing: what this button for ? user interface: this is a teletext button . so once you press that then you get teletext marketing: okay . user interface: and you can use the the channel selector scroll wheel as uh project manager: to navigate it through th through teletext . user interface: to navigate yeah . marketing: but if you want to go to page seven hundred ? industrial designer: that 's right , that 's right . user interface: yeah . project manager: with the wheel it 's easy . marketing: how man user interface: well then you can you you have like a little uh number selection thing , you press the the the teletext button uh to move between uh the fields and then you can just scroll the number back and forth so you have s you go you scroll to seven and then zero zero and then you can uh marketing: i do n't understand it . can you repeat it ? user interface: well you can you can press press the teletext button industrial designer: user interface: and then you then you can you can f industrial designer: so then then both the scroll buttons they are for teletext browsing . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and you can tele marketing: ah okay okay . okay . okay okay . industrial designer: yeah , user interface: mm uh industrial designer: once you press the teletext button then the scroll buttons they are more for teletext , they are no more for channel or vol volume . marketing: okay . i see . i see . okay . okay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and this is the uh the infrared uh port . industrial designer: that 's right . user interface: also the top of the banana . project manager: excellent . user interface: so . and then we have industrial designer: yeah . user interface: in the uh in the base station we have the the button at the front for uh for calling the uh the banana . project manager: calling . excellent . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and the the leaves plays the roles of of antennas ? user interface: actually they do . project manager: oh . user interface: that 's that 's yeah that 's uh that 's form and function in the one in the one uh object . industrial designer: yeah . so it always means , whatever the rays goes by they they get reflected and then you are having a better coverage . user interface: industrial designer: it 's like antennas . user interface: yeah . so . marketing: user interface: but yeah that 's um that 's just like that 's an attractive um base station . project manager: great . user interface: so . project manager: so , what else ? user interface: okay . industrial designer: and for the power source we are having solar cells and rechargeable batteries and this and uh the basis station is going to have the input from the mm power line for for charging the batteries . marketing: is it really weight ? is it light or industrial designer: it is very light . project manager: yeah , they 're light . user interface: it 's it 's uh it 's about the weight of a banana . marketing: okay . project manager: marketing: okay . user interface: you know , to give you the correct look and feel . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: ok industrial designer: and we have put these different colours so that people do n't mistake them mistake it as a banana . user interface: industrial designer: otherwise it 's you know a child comes and so marketing: okay . yeah yeah yeah , i see . i under i understand . user interface: i think a child would try to eat it anyway , so maybe we should industrial designer: yeah . user interface: consider that . maybe health and safety aspects . project manager: ah yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: industrial designer: oh we did n't think of that yet . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: so for the power source , apparently you still you you want to use both solar cells and batteries . industrial designer: oh yeah that 's right . project manager: uh you mean okay . so user interface: i do n't really know if the solar cells are actually necessary any more if you have a recharging base station . project manager: yeah , where are going to where are you are you going to place them ? industrial designer: mm-hmm mm-hmm . it 'll it 'll be always at top somewhere at there . user interface: if i was gon na place them i 'd put them on the on the top here since that 's like uh the black bit project manager: you have enough surface ? you user interface: but yeah i do n't i really do n't think it 's necessary to have the solar cells anymore . industrial designer: yeah because now we are having rechargeable batteries project manager: okay . user interface: mm . industrial designer: so that that is . project manager: what will be the autonomy ? roughly ? user interface: the what sorry ? project manager: the autonomy . autonomy . user interface: what do you mean ? project manager: uh i mean how long does i how how how long can it be held off a station ? marketing: how long the how long the bit the batteries long . user interface: ah . ah . a long time . project manager: yeah . a long user interface: no no no , industrial designer: eight to ten eight to ten hours . marketing: user interface: it can it should be weeks . industrial designer: n most no most of the time it 's not being used . project manager: yeah , so it 's user interface: yeah but y people do n't like to put it back in the base station all the time people leave wan na leave it on the couch so industrial designer: so when when you are making it on project manager: it 's used only when you industrial designer: mm . mm-hmm . no eight or eight or ten hours of working . user interface: ah , okay . industrial designer: if you are just leaving like that it 'll be much longer . user interface: okay . project manager: yeah . f weeks . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . that 's right . project manager: right . next slide ? industrial designer: yeah . and we are having the speakers regular chip for control . pricing is was a factor so that 's why we have gone for a regular chip only not the advanced chip . and uh that 's it . project manager: okay . okay . those really sounds very good . industrial designer: that 's right . project manager: nothing else to add ? user interface: it seems to be falling over . marketing: i l yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: i like i like it . maybe the the thing that convince me the less is the the multifunctional buttons . looks a bit industrial designer: you want to have more functional buttons ? marketing: looks a bit puzzled uh i dunno how to say that . industrial designer: you are not convinced . marketing: you the the b the buttons change h h their function depending if y it 's teletext or not industrial designer: not not many , we we want to keep it simple . so that this button fo is for teletext which is usually also the case , that usually there is a teletext button and once you press that , the channel buttons , they baco become the scrolling buttons . marketing: and the volume button will will become industrial designer: it 's up to you , means . project manager: well in fact b both will be could be useful , navigating through teletext . industrial designer: now that means let 's say this this can move the the larger digits and this can move the smaller digits . user interface: or can move between positions in the in the number . industrial designer: that 's right . project manager: yeah . marketing: and what about people who want to use digits ? butto real buttons ? project manager: wow . industrial designer: yeah . so there was there was a constraint that the surface area which we have on this banana on one side because of the shape . marketing: industrial designer: so we are targeting a segment which is which is just very trendy kind of thing , they they do n't care about the buttons any more . and anyway marketing: okay . because have you thought about configuration and all this kind of uh stuff ? user interface: it 's all automatic . marketing: it 's all automatic . user interface: yep . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: okay . okay yeah it 's fine . project manager: very good uh yeah marketing: w we are living in a wonderful world . project manager: you th yeah . user interface: uh . industrial designer: project manager: bananas everywhere . industrial designer: project manager: okay , so marketing: automatically configure . project manager: marketing: project manager: so we have to go through now evaluations . industrial designer: evalua yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so your slides are ready ? marketing: s project manager: uh you 're four i think . marketing: yeah . project manager: so this is one , which one is this one ? marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: okay . i i const i constructed a a list of criteria based on the on the general user requirements . and each criteria is will be evaluated it 's uh logical criteria so we must users must say i if it 's true or is or if it 's false in a in a scale ranging from zero to seven . industrial designer: why this strange factor of seven ? marketing: because i i 'm sorry . sorry . industrial designer: usually i have seen that scales are from one to ten . marketing: ah yeah . it 's from sorry , it 's from one to seven . it 's from from one to seven sorry . because it should be an even it should be an even uh scale , industrial designer: okay . project manager: num number industrial designer: okay . mm-hmm . marketing: and five is too short and nine is too long . industrial designer: okay . marketing: i 'm a i i 'm industrial designer: okay fine , got the idea . project manager: so to have in order to have enough granularity marketing: sorry ? project manager: it 's in order to have enough granularity in the evaluation . marketing: yeah yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: the variance is mi it 's is minimal . project manager: okay . industrial designer: okay , okay , great . marketing: i 'm um answering your question . industrial designer: okay . yeah yeah . marketing: okay . industrial designer: go ahead . marketing: and that 's the criteria i i found more useful . i think i sh i i could write the criteria in the on the whiteboard ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . sure . marketing: and we all four could range industrial designer: okay . yeah yeah . yeah . marketing: could evaluate the project manager: okay . marketing: industrial designer: so you can say fancy , handy . handy . marketing: okay let 's let 's evaluate if it 's fancy or industrial designer: yeah , it 's fancy , according to me . marketing: seven but user interface: project manager: yeah , six . industrial designer: project manager: s seven . industrial designer: seven . seven by me . project manager: six . marketing: i would say seven . industrial designer: okay . marketing: it 's quite fancy . industrial designer: so you can add seven plus six plus seven plus user interface: project manager: no , wait . user interface: yeah uh five . project manager: what do you say seven ? five ? industrial designer: five . user interface: five , maybe maybe maybe six it 's it 's i guess it 's project manager: okay , six point five . user interface: yeah . project manager: handy ? user interface: industrial designer: again i 'll give seven . project manager: seven . user interface: i 'd give it a six like i 'd i think it 's probably more handy than my current remote , 'cause of the scroll wheels marketing: six . industrial designer: yep . user interface: but maybe loses the point for not having you know the extra buttons when you reall if you do need them for some reason but you know you can always use your other remote . project manager: so seven , seven , industrial designer: seven for me . project manager: six , user interface: yeah . marketing: six . project manager: six point five . functional . user interface: industrial designer: i 'll give five . project manager: four . marketing: i would say project manager: industrial designer: user interface: well it depends when you say functional , do you mean it does what we want it to do , or d does what it does , you know , can it make you coffee ? marketing: everything ar project manager: uh for a remote control , does he have all the user interface: you know . marketing: mm everything user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: you could expect . marketing: it 's compared to the all industrial designer: that 's right . marketing: remote controls . user interface: that 's before industrial designer: that 's right . the standards . what is available in the market off the shelf . user interface: yeah . i have to say four . marketing: actually i do n't know what are the r the real specification of a of a universal remote contro user interface: well it 's not a universal remote . remember we 're focus we 're supposed to focus just on tvs . industrial designer: we marketing: ah it 's not an univer but it 's for all kind of tvs ? project manager: yeah . user interface: well all tvs but only t_ only tvs i guess . project manager: so it 's universal but for tvs . so s uh four ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: five . project manager: five ? user interface: four . project manager: four . marketing: four . four . industrial designer: so four point two ? user interface: just four . project manager: four . industrial designer: four . user interface: obviously there are some outliers so marketing: so four ? project manager: okay cool ? cool device . industrial designer: marketing: industrial designer: there i 'll give it seven . project manager: marketing: it means cool features , like new features actually . industrial designer: that 's right . user interface: which industrial designer: for a tv the most important feature which i felt was the locator which is a cool feature . and then the scroll buttons are again cool features . we do n't have lcd for it but that we decided we do n't want to have . project manager: yeah . seven . marketing: i would say five . user interface: i 'll say five . project manager: six . industrial designer: mm-hmm . seven . project manager: plus six , i say i said seven . user interface: yeah . project manager: so it 's six . user interface: s yeah . marketing: you said seven ? project manager: yeah . user interface: 'cause it 's five five seven seven so industrial designer: okay . user interface: uh , okay , definitely easy to use . industrial designer: definitely seven . user interface: seven . project manager: seven . seven . and you ? outl you are not lik outlier . marketing: five . user interface: project manager: seven industrial designer: project manager: okay okay okay okay . industrial designer: okay . marketing: sorry , i have them user interface: alright , now here 's the sixty million dollar question , project manager: user interface: well , twenty five twenty five euro question . project manager: of course i 'll buy the banana . user interface: what do you what do you guys reckon ? marketing: of cour of course the most difficult question for the end . project manager: well industrial designer: i 'll say five . user interface: hmm . industrial designer: i 'll say five . project manager: twenty five euros . cheap . industrial designer: marketing: i find it quite cheap actually . user interface: marketing: i dunno . if i i it depends , if you live in in switzerland or you live in project manager: yeah , so the target price is for all europe , or only for rich countries ? it 's more targeting u_k_ or marketing: i do n't know . wha the initial specifications were for the whole all europe or user interface: uh project manager: so this is selling costs , not production costs . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah this is the the initial specifications . project manager: yeah yeah sure . um five . marketing: i would say six . it 's quite cheap actually . user interface: i 'd say two . project manager: aw , should be nice in your industrial designer: why ? user interface: i do n't want a banana on my living room table , a banana remote . marketing: industrial designer: no but it 's really handy actually if you see . user interface: it is handy , it 's handy , but it it 's terrible . industrial designer: it 's it 's so handy . and then project manager: it 's kitsch . industrial designer: anyb anybody who comes here anybody who comes to your home he 'll at least ask once what is this . user interface: yeah . yeah , but it 's not a positive thing . industrial designer: it 's a very positive thing if you see like that . user interface: well , you know , it 's it 's handy , it 's ergonomic , but it 's a banana . project manager: well , do n't forget well , do n't for do n't forget who we 're targeting also who are f f who are wh industrial designer: youngsters . project manager: yeah , youngst youngst user interface: yeah but it says i , i would buy this , so . marketing: actually maybe project manager: no well yeah i if you would be young . marketing: yeah project manager: not telling that you are young . li li like a teenager for instance . user interface: no , it 's i . i would buy industrial designer: project manager: okay you 're you 're crazy teenager and you like fun things . industrial designer: you want to flaunt . project manager: yeah . user interface: industrial designer: you with your girlfriend or something . project manager: yeah , you want to show the beautiful banana you have . user interface: s s industrial designer: or might be it does some other kind of thing but user interface: still i i 'd say two . i do n't think i at any stage in my life i would want a banana remote control , really . industrial designer: uh yeah , crazy . project manager: okay so you s you give user interface: i can say , maybe there is a market for it , i dunno . project manager: oh yeah yeah i know i know . industrial designer: project manager: so you say two . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i say five . project manager: f i d i say five . you say ? marketing: i change the question . project manager: so what 's the new question ? industrial designer: and you have saved it ? marketing: so yeah upload the industrial designer: you 'll have to reload . project manager: uh yeah , i think so . user interface: okay , so , it depends if uh marketing: yeah it 's two different situations . if you really need an universal remote control or if you would change your remote control for a n for a new one . project manager: yeah that 's two different question . user interface: if i had t if i had to spend twenty five euro , if that was like my limit , maybe i would buy it . because the other twenty five euro remote controls are probably gon na look project manager: ugly . user interface: worse than a banana . industrial designer: they 're not going to be as and they they might not be a as easy as this marketing: user interface: and it yeah this is gon na f you know handy to use . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: so ? what now ? what range ? project manager: i stick to five . industrial designer: s user interface: although it still has it still has the word of course at the beginning industrial designer: i go slightly up . six . marketing: six . user interface: so i dunno . um . project manager: w we have six , five user interface: i 'd give it i 'd give it a project manager: three user interface: i give it a four now . industrial designer: marketing: six ? six ? project manager: so we are six , five , four industrial designer: six , five , four . marketing: six , so it 's uh five point five , or less . project manager: yeah . so industrial designer: okay . project manager: so and last question , will i change my rem change my remote control from mando banana . um , zero . no uh we ca n't . marketing: project manager: so one . user interface: marketing: actually yeah , i we project manager: well if . user interface: yeah . project manager: no uh let 's say i 'll put two . user interface: i 'd say three , i mean my remote control is kinda at home is pretty terrible . if it was change my remote control of my d_v_d_ player for a mando banana then i would be more inclined to project manager: it 's for the tv . user interface: but uh 'cause it 's really bad but uh marketing: user interface: i 'd say a three . industrial designer: i 'll still give it five . yeah . marketing: five ? project manager: two three five two three fi and two . marketing: you are romantic , really . industrial designer: so it 's somewhere three point five i think . marketing: i would say two . project manager: so it 's r yeah , three point five . marketing: who is the outlier ? user interface: marketing: wh wh you said five ? project manager: no no you say five , he is the outlier . industrial designer: no i said five . project manager: okay just just do a sum . marketing: i do n't know if it 's a user interface: it 's not very promising but you know we 're not young trendsetters . marketing: no because there are more yeah , we should n't sum like that . project manager: well maybe we should we should uh have a look globally glob marketing: because the the last two questions is much more important than the rest actually . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: otherwise we would n't we will not sell . user interface: is there some some formula you 're using that says you have to sum them up ? marketing: uh no i did n't anything . user interface: well just leave it at that then . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: oops . project manager: so maybe maybe w we can we should stick to general feeling . we can had uh have a out of these numbers , which which is that well we should go for it . marketing: yeah , the uh yeah . project manager: problem with connectors ? marketing: do you want me to sum user interface: no . industrial designer: yeah it 's it 's funny . marketing: o i think it 's not user interface: i think it it kind of you just lose information if you sum it , so . project manager: okay . so let 's move uh let 's move on . industrial designer: yeah , sure . project manager: okay , now now we have to mm to estimate uh the cost okay . so i prepare an excel sh uh an excel sheet . um well we are going to calculate the production costs . we should we should be below twelve point five . so i already uh put some pu some numbers here , okay . we are going to go through so this is the number the mm number of components we need for this thing . so it appears that there were things that we did n't thought about . uh and also things that i uh i d i forget to uh to put like solar cells . user interface: well we decided against the solar cells so industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: oh yeah finally we say no . industrial designer: solar cells , yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah , we said no to that . project manager: okay so let 's let 's go let 's go let go through all the lines . so hand dynamo . this something we did n't thought about . but user interface: you mean , charging it by shaking the banana . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think rechargeable batteries will take care of the power thing . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay so we we stick to battery , one . industrial designer: to bring the cost yeah . project manager: no kinetic also . i do n't i do n't see the difference between kinetic and dynamo . user interface: well maybe dynamo is like you have to actually project manager: ah you have to ah okay i see so kinetic is really uh shaking the banana . user interface: marketing: s user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: crazy . okay . so those banana is falling . let 's go ahead . so we we st only have one for battery . uh then for electronics um so i did n't put anything for the . industrial designer: so we have the regular chip on the print , which is one . project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and that 's it . project manager: okay . no so we hin industrial designer: and we have sample speaker . project manager: yeah so one . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . the cost of that is very high . project manager: ooh ye ye ye the cost is increasing . so we are user interface: well actually that that no that sample speaker is not we we 're not using that , we 're just using the the very beep simple beep , project manager: the beep . user interface: that s that sample thing is like the voice recording and everything . industrial designer: uh-huh . project manager: that 's what industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: okay so i 'll remove it . user interface: so yeah . project manager: s user interface: i say that yeah . project manager: so do n't we need a industrial designer: and we have sev project manager: oh there is no listing for r radio frequency thing . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so industrial designer: so we we 'll put some extras , if there is something . project manager: yeah maybe . we 'll see later . user interface: mm . project manager: okay so in for the case um i put single curved . industrial designer: okay . to reduce the cost , it 's okay . user interface: well , wait a second , project manager: because we have two things . user interface: no , it 's it 's double curved , it 's got a c , it 's uh industrial designer: oh it 's got all the directions project manager: no . industrial designer: so do n't worry . user interface: well d yeah it 's monotonic but marketing: industrial designer: it 's got a direction . user interface: it 's got but if you hold it if you hold it that way that 's two curved , one on this side , one on that side , but they 're opposite sides . project manager: well . what a what i if i put one here . user interface: this is actually i mean this probably marketing: actually what 's the differen user interface: this probably actually costs more than three project manager: yeah so let 's put one here in the then instead of single user interface: if you industrial designer: okay . okay . project manager: oka all right . user interface: yeah . project manager: so we stick to plastic , it cost nothing . industrial designer: yeah . that 's right . user interface: well no did n't we say we wanted to do a rubber project manager: no , it 's too no . user interface: if you drop it ? marketing: too expensive . project manager: it 's too expensive . we 're already at eleven . user interface: well when okay . well we we 'll come back we 'll come back and see if we can fit it in . project manager: okay so i put rubber one . okay so special colour , yellow . user interface: yeah . project manager: uh for the interface we have industrial designer: we do n't have any push buttons . user interface: no , we have two push buttons . project manager: we have three . industrial designer: no that is a scroll wheel itself , it 'll be put in that . user interface: huh . project manager: no no . we have two scroll , and we have three push buttons . industrial designer: ah okay , okay . user interface: uh . industrial designer: okay , okay . project manager: and user interface: okay it 's gon na have to be plastic . marketing: actually whe whe when you wrote regular chip you should put two , because there is another chip here . project manager: no it 's no chip . this is just radio frequency . th this is no chip . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah but industrial designer: no . there 's no chip there . marketing: you need industrial designer: it just emits the signal . project manager: it 's just industrial designer: and the receiver accepts it and that 's it . project manager: yeah . marketing: fo i it does nothing actually ? project manager: no . just only . industrial designer: just se sends the signal , that 's it . user interface: it 's a recharger thing and uh project manager: okay w we did n't think a thought about uh integrated scroll wheel push buttons . user interface: well i actually did um think about it myself but i thought you know because you could potentially you know you could be pushing it down as you scroll it for a instead of a turbo button project manager: yeah , user interface: but you know the turbo button does add that extra class . project manager: so yeah . user interface: you know . so i mean if we 're if we 're over budget then maybe we could we could rethink that . project manager: okay . so no lcd , so for we have no button supplements , right ? industrial designer: yep . no . project manager: uh well in fact could we could not we consider this button as a button supplement because oh no , these are these are for colours , co and special forms , special colours and special materials . user interface: yeah . no we 're not project manager: so user interface: we do n't need anything special for the buttons . project manager: okay so we are over budget . industrial designer: yeah . so first thing which we should take care of is , user interface: make it plastic instead of rubber . industrial designer: instead of rubber , let it be plastic . project manager: yeah . user interface: and then we 're basically o on budget except for you know ten cents . industrial designer: and uh that much money will be required for the base station , which is not there . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: so mayb in fact n we have to put two here marketing: project manager: because it cost nothing . user interface: yeah well pl the base station is made out of m many units of plastic . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: that 's right . project manager: industrial designer: so might be ninety centimes for the the remaining things which the cord and everything which 'll go project manager: exactly exactly so we have margin for that stuff . user interface: does that include charging circuitry and everything ? industrial designer: that 's right . project manager: yeah maybe . okay good . wha industrial designer: yeah . project manager: excellent . user interface: so what do we do with the extra profits ? project manager: um we 'll invest in r_ and d_ . user interface: okay . marketing: user interface: the next fruit . project manager: yeah . so well we 're under the the the cost . so we can go to through to project evaluation . marketing: okay so now we have a product which nobody would would buy . would yeah , would buy . project manager: sorry ? user interface: no we have a product which none of us would buy . marketing: yeah because th th the evaluation project project manager: which is different . which is different . none of us will buy it . user interface: no it 's people in in in milan and uh in paris that are gon na buy it . marketing: ah would buy , yeah . user interface: we 're n marketing: massively , yeah . user interface: yeah . we 're not in milan or paris . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . okay . uh you have been in milan a couple of times , so . project manager: this is a battery . user interface: actually there were a lot of industrial designer: marketing: and you said the lowest . user interface: project manager: this is what we which you can mm industrial designer: s detachable battery . project manager: it did yeah . user interface: that 's 'cause i 'm sick of milan . marketing: yeah , for the batteries project manager: extra battery , yeah . industrial designer: user interface: okay so um project process . project manager: exac well in fact i i did not know i did n't know really what to say here . marketing: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: if uh if you have any ideas of what we can we can say . so i do n't i do n't i do n't understand what what they mean by satisfaction um and for and for example . user interface: project manager: should it be more like um like a status of of the these meetings in fact . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah well in fact uh we we use a little bit the white board and the digital pen , not that much . user interface: i dunno i think we had a fair bit of creativity . project manager: oh yeah it 's really creative . user interface: and uh but i think one thing we m missed out of this whole process was a um like a focus group with the actual people we 're targeting . industrial designer: user interface: we needed some of these kind of young trendsetters to come in and play with the banana and you know see if they project manager: yeah . industrial designer: they like that . user interface: see if they like it . project manager: yeah maybe we should go through , yeah an uh evaluation . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: because yeah the evaluation for us is is kind of pointless . industrial designer: biased . project manager: so maybe you should we should do a kinda evaluation in the streets like asking to young peoples well , do you like to have a banana as a remote control . user interface: yeah . because it it would also be interesting to uh you to know find out if we have a market in really young children as well , to see you know how to how to market this thing . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: 'cause you know if well i mean maybe you do n't wan na give all your kids their own remote because they 'll be changing the channel all the time but you know maybe in some households where there is you know a tv for each kid , then you know , banana remote control could be fun for them as well . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: might have to draw a face on it . so but i think that 's something we need to to work on next time is really finding out more about the target market . project manager: yep . any any new ideas we could uh we could investigate next time ? dunno , oranges ? industrial designer: yeah . the cost of the thing can be made more than might be . because i think it 's just the optimal , what we have done for the cost which we are looking forward to . user interface: yeah . i think there are ways we could maybe simplify the industrial designer: interface . user interface: well just the the the circuit board that we 're using inside , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i 'm not sure really how complicated our um industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: our needs are . i mean all we have is two push buttons and two scrollers , do we really need an integrated circuit to project manager: hmm . user interface: you know to process that . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: so more general remote control instead of just focusing on uh on tv . industrial designer: that 's right . marketing: the complexity should n't be much higher . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: for you said if it good for d_v_d_ then i would user interface: and also fo you know for mood lighting and and stuff , that would be rather cool . i think that 's actually something that should be in version two , is the ability to you know to control things other than the tv industrial designer: integrate . user interface: and not just electronic equipment but you know the whole environment of the room . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: project manager: okay . very good . so industrial designer: so what else ? project manager: well done . i think we we can go industrial designer: okay . home ? project manager: home . industrial designer: happily satisfied . marketing: project manager: yeah . maybe maybe we can hassle the the production department to to make a a real prototype that we can use at home to to evaluate . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: okay so thanks very much . user interface: yep . project manager: bye . user interface: okay . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: thank you . marketing: bye .

the group had a production cost of 12.5 euros . they agreed to not add solar cells for power source nor a sample speaker instead of a simple beep . they would have one battery , two regular chips on the print , double curves which stuck to the plastic , two scroll wheels , and three push buttons . the group would not use lcd and they would have a base station that was made out of units of plastic to balance the cost .

summarize the group discussion about the project process . </s> project manager: marketing: project manager: okay . good afternoon again . user interface: project manager: so we should have our final meeting about the detail designed of detail design of the product of the remote control . um so here is the agenda for today . uh uh just going to go quickly through the minutes of the last last uh meeting then we have a p presentation of prototype of you two , sounds interesting . and we 'll have um presentation of evaluation crit criteria by ou our marketing experts . then we 'll have to go through finance evaluation of the of the cost of the thing and um hopefully uh we should fit the target o tw of twelve point five uh uh euro . okay . so let 's go . uh if i go quickly through the minutes of the last meeting . so we went through th uh w we took this following decisions . no lcd , no speech recognition technology , okay , we went through a b to a banana look and feel for the remote control . we went through the use of wheels and but buttons . and also the use of a basis station for battery ch charging and uh also to um call the to call the mot mote remote control when it is lost . okay . um . good . so guys let this uh wonderful thing . industrial designer: okay so we can go to the slides . project manager: oh yeah . sorry . um . industrial designer: yeah . number three . oh number two sorry . project manager: which is industrial designer: so final design . final design . okay so michael you can go ahead . user interface: yeah so uh following our decision to uh make a yellow well to make a banana project manager: yeah can you show it to the the camera maybe . user interface: remote okay so we actually have a industrial designer: you can pull it out first , maybe . user interface: we 've well first first of all we made a an attractive base station uh with a banana leaf uh look and feel um and uh project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: bana sit the banana sits in there k you know nicely weighted so that it 's not gon na tip over and um this is the remote itself , it 's kind of it 's it 's ergonomic , it fits in the hand uh rather well . we 've got the two uh uh scroll wheels here which you know one on the the left for the uh volume and the one on the right for for the channel and uh underneath we have the uh the turbo button which is in like a nice uh trigger position for you know for pressing quite naturally . project manager: what 's the use uh of the t turbo button already ? user interface: this is when you when you uh are scrolling the uh through the channels you can tell it to to skip th past channels that you quickly rather th project manager: ah yeah yeah an then you stop when you stop it stops . user interface: yeah . well when you stop scrolling the wheel it stops . but normally with uh it will just uh s stay on each station briefly so you can see the the picture . industrial designer: uh project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: and we we do have one more functionality . if you take the banana as such and uh you press the turbo button , so it switch ons the switch ons the tv . user interface: the tv yeah . project manager: which one ? user interface: the s the turbo button . industrial designer: the turbo button . project manager: okay . user interface: so rather than having uh an extra button for um for the on off switch you just use the turbo button . industrial designer: additional button . marketing: what this button for ? user interface: this is a teletext button . so once you press that then you get teletext marketing: okay . user interface: and you can use the the channel selector scroll wheel as uh project manager: to navigate it through th through teletext . user interface: to navigate yeah . marketing: but if you want to go to page seven hundred ? industrial designer: that 's right , that 's right . user interface: yeah . project manager: with the wheel it 's easy . marketing: how man user interface: well then you can you you have like a little uh number selection thing , you press the the the teletext button uh to move between uh the fields and then you can just scroll the number back and forth so you have s you go you scroll to seven and then zero zero and then you can uh marketing: i do n't understand it . can you repeat it ? user interface: well you can you can press press the teletext button industrial designer: user interface: and then you then you can you can f industrial designer: so then then both the scroll buttons they are for teletext browsing . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and you can tele marketing: ah okay okay . okay . okay okay . industrial designer: yeah , user interface: mm uh industrial designer: once you press the teletext button then the scroll buttons they are more for teletext , they are no more for channel or vol volume . marketing: okay . i see . i see . okay . okay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and this is the uh the infrared uh port . industrial designer: that 's right . user interface: also the top of the banana . project manager: excellent . user interface: so . and then we have industrial designer: yeah . user interface: in the uh in the base station we have the the button at the front for uh for calling the uh the banana . project manager: calling . excellent . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and the the leaves plays the roles of of antennas ? user interface: actually they do . project manager: oh . user interface: that 's that 's yeah that 's uh that 's form and function in the one in the one uh object . industrial designer: yeah . so it always means , whatever the rays goes by they they get reflected and then you are having a better coverage . user interface: industrial designer: it 's like antennas . user interface: yeah . so . marketing: user interface: but yeah that 's um that 's just like that 's an attractive um base station . project manager: great . user interface: so . project manager: so , what else ? user interface: okay . industrial designer: and for the power source we are having solar cells and rechargeable batteries and this and uh the basis station is going to have the input from the mm power line for for charging the batteries . marketing: is it really weight ? is it light or industrial designer: it is very light . project manager: yeah , they 're light . user interface: it 's it 's uh it 's about the weight of a banana . marketing: okay . project manager: marketing: okay . user interface: you know , to give you the correct look and feel . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: ok industrial designer: and we have put these different colours so that people do n't mistake them mistake it as a banana . user interface: industrial designer: otherwise it 's you know a child comes and so marketing: okay . yeah yeah yeah , i see . i under i understand . user interface: i think a child would try to eat it anyway , so maybe we should industrial designer: yeah . user interface: consider that . maybe health and safety aspects . project manager: ah yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: industrial designer: oh we did n't think of that yet . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: so for the power source , apparently you still you you want to use both solar cells and batteries . industrial designer: oh yeah that 's right . project manager: uh you mean okay . so user interface: i do n't really know if the solar cells are actually necessary any more if you have a recharging base station . project manager: yeah , where are going to where are you are you going to place them ? industrial designer: mm-hmm mm-hmm . it 'll it 'll be always at top somewhere at there . user interface: if i was gon na place them i 'd put them on the on the top here since that 's like uh the black bit project manager: you have enough surface ? you user interface: but yeah i do n't i really do n't think it 's necessary to have the solar cells anymore . industrial designer: yeah because now we are having rechargeable batteries project manager: okay . user interface: mm . industrial designer: so that that is . project manager: what will be the autonomy ? roughly ? user interface: the what sorry ? project manager: the autonomy . autonomy . user interface: what do you mean ? project manager: uh i mean how long does i how how how long can it be held off a station ? marketing: how long the how long the bit the batteries long . user interface: ah . ah . a long time . project manager: yeah . a long user interface: no no no , industrial designer: eight to ten eight to ten hours . marketing: user interface: it can it should be weeks . industrial designer: n most no most of the time it 's not being used . project manager: yeah , so it 's user interface: yeah but y people do n't like to put it back in the base station all the time people leave wan na leave it on the couch so industrial designer: so when when you are making it on project manager: it 's used only when you industrial designer: mm . mm-hmm . no eight or eight or ten hours of working . user interface: ah , okay . industrial designer: if you are just leaving like that it 'll be much longer . user interface: okay . project manager: yeah . f weeks . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . that 's right . project manager: right . next slide ? industrial designer: yeah . and we are having the speakers regular chip for control . pricing is was a factor so that 's why we have gone for a regular chip only not the advanced chip . and uh that 's it . project manager: okay . okay . those really sounds very good . industrial designer: that 's right . project manager: nothing else to add ? user interface: it seems to be falling over . marketing: i l yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: i like i like it . maybe the the thing that convince me the less is the the multifunctional buttons . looks a bit industrial designer: you want to have more functional buttons ? marketing: looks a bit puzzled uh i dunno how to say that . industrial designer: you are not convinced . marketing: you the the b the buttons change h h their function depending if y it 's teletext or not industrial designer: not not many , we we want to keep it simple . so that this button fo is for teletext which is usually also the case , that usually there is a teletext button and once you press that , the channel buttons , they baco become the scrolling buttons . marketing: and the volume button will will become industrial designer: it 's up to you , means . project manager: well in fact b both will be could be useful , navigating through teletext . industrial designer: now that means let 's say this this can move the the larger digits and this can move the smaller digits . user interface: or can move between positions in the in the number . industrial designer: that 's right . project manager: yeah . marketing: and what about people who want to use digits ? butto real buttons ? project manager: wow . industrial designer: yeah . so there was there was a constraint that the surface area which we have on this banana on one side because of the shape . marketing: industrial designer: so we are targeting a segment which is which is just very trendy kind of thing , they they do n't care about the buttons any more . and anyway marketing: okay . because have you thought about configuration and all this kind of uh stuff ? user interface: it 's all automatic . marketing: it 's all automatic . user interface: yep . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: okay . okay yeah it 's fine . project manager: very good uh yeah marketing: w we are living in a wonderful world . project manager: you th yeah . user interface: uh . industrial designer: project manager: bananas everywhere . industrial designer: project manager: okay , so marketing: automatically configure . project manager: marketing: project manager: so we have to go through now evaluations . industrial designer: evalua yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so your slides are ready ? marketing: s project manager: uh you 're four i think . marketing: yeah . project manager: so this is one , which one is this one ? marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: okay . i i const i constructed a a list of criteria based on the on the general user requirements . and each criteria is will be evaluated it 's uh logical criteria so we must users must say i if it 's true or is or if it 's false in a in a scale ranging from zero to seven . industrial designer: why this strange factor of seven ? marketing: because i i 'm sorry . sorry . industrial designer: usually i have seen that scales are from one to ten . marketing: ah yeah . it 's from sorry , it 's from one to seven . it 's from from one to seven sorry . because it should be an even it should be an even uh scale , industrial designer: okay . project manager: num number industrial designer: okay . mm-hmm . marketing: and five is too short and nine is too long . industrial designer: okay . marketing: i 'm a i i 'm industrial designer: okay fine , got the idea . project manager: so to have in order to have enough granularity marketing: sorry ? project manager: it 's in order to have enough granularity in the evaluation . marketing: yeah yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: the variance is mi it 's is minimal . project manager: okay . industrial designer: okay , okay , great . marketing: i 'm um answering your question . industrial designer: okay . yeah yeah . marketing: okay . industrial designer: go ahead . marketing: and that 's the criteria i i found more useful . i think i sh i i could write the criteria in the on the whiteboard ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . sure . marketing: and we all four could range industrial designer: okay . yeah yeah . yeah . marketing: could evaluate the project manager: okay . marketing: industrial designer: so you can say fancy , handy . handy . marketing: okay let 's let 's evaluate if it 's fancy or industrial designer: yeah , it 's fancy , according to me . marketing: seven but user interface: project manager: yeah , six . industrial designer: project manager: s seven . industrial designer: seven . seven by me . project manager: six . marketing: i would say seven . industrial designer: okay . marketing: it 's quite fancy . industrial designer: so you can add seven plus six plus seven plus user interface: project manager: no , wait . user interface: yeah uh five . project manager: what do you say seven ? five ? industrial designer: five . user interface: five , maybe maybe maybe six it 's it 's i guess it 's project manager: okay , six point five . user interface: yeah . project manager: handy ? user interface: industrial designer: again i 'll give seven . project manager: seven . user interface: i 'd give it a six like i 'd i think it 's probably more handy than my current remote , 'cause of the scroll wheels marketing: six . industrial designer: yep . user interface: but maybe loses the point for not having you know the extra buttons when you reall if you do need them for some reason but you know you can always use your other remote . project manager: so seven , seven , industrial designer: seven for me . project manager: six , user interface: yeah . marketing: six . project manager: six point five . functional . user interface: industrial designer: i 'll give five . project manager: four . marketing: i would say project manager: industrial designer: user interface: well it depends when you say functional , do you mean it does what we want it to do , or d does what it does , you know , can it make you coffee ? marketing: everything ar project manager: uh for a remote control , does he have all the user interface: you know . marketing: mm everything user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: you could expect . marketing: it 's compared to the all industrial designer: that 's right . marketing: remote controls . user interface: that 's before industrial designer: that 's right . the standards . what is available in the market off the shelf . user interface: yeah . i have to say four . marketing: actually i do n't know what are the r the real specification of a of a universal remote contro user interface: well it 's not a universal remote . remember we 're focus we 're supposed to focus just on tvs . industrial designer: we marketing: ah it 's not an univer but it 's for all kind of tvs ? project manager: yeah . user interface: well all tvs but only t_ only tvs i guess . project manager: so it 's universal but for tvs . so s uh four ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: five . project manager: five ? user interface: four . project manager: four . marketing: four . four . industrial designer: so four point two ? user interface: just four . project manager: four . industrial designer: four . user interface: obviously there are some outliers so marketing: so four ? project manager: okay cool ? cool device . industrial designer: marketing: industrial designer: there i 'll give it seven . project manager: marketing: it means cool features , like new features actually . industrial designer: that 's right . user interface: which industrial designer: for a tv the most important feature which i felt was the locator which is a cool feature . and then the scroll buttons are again cool features . we do n't have lcd for it but that we decided we do n't want to have . project manager: yeah . seven . marketing: i would say five . user interface: i 'll say five . project manager: six . industrial designer: mm-hmm . seven . project manager: plus six , i say i said seven . user interface: yeah . project manager: so it 's six . user interface: s yeah . marketing: you said seven ? project manager: yeah . user interface: 'cause it 's five five seven seven so industrial designer: okay . user interface: uh , okay , definitely easy to use . industrial designer: definitely seven . user interface: seven . project manager: seven . seven . and you ? outl you are not lik outlier . marketing: five . user interface: project manager: seven industrial designer: project manager: okay okay okay okay . industrial designer: okay . marketing: sorry , i have them user interface: alright , now here 's the sixty million dollar question , project manager: user interface: well , twenty five twenty five euro question . project manager: of course i 'll buy the banana . user interface: what do you what do you guys reckon ? marketing: of cour of course the most difficult question for the end . project manager: well industrial designer: i 'll say five . user interface: hmm . industrial designer: i 'll say five . project manager: twenty five euros . cheap . industrial designer: marketing: i find it quite cheap actually . user interface: marketing: i dunno . if i i it depends , if you live in in switzerland or you live in project manager: yeah , so the target price is for all europe , or only for rich countries ? it 's more targeting u_k_ or marketing: i do n't know . wha the initial specifications were for the whole all europe or user interface: uh project manager: so this is selling costs , not production costs . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah this is the the initial specifications . project manager: yeah yeah sure . um five . marketing: i would say six . it 's quite cheap actually . user interface: i 'd say two . project manager: aw , should be nice in your industrial designer: why ? user interface: i do n't want a banana on my living room table , a banana remote . marketing: industrial designer: no but it 's really handy actually if you see . user interface: it is handy , it 's handy , but it it 's terrible . industrial designer: it 's it 's so handy . and then project manager: it 's kitsch . industrial designer: anyb anybody who comes here anybody who comes to your home he 'll at least ask once what is this . user interface: yeah . yeah , but it 's not a positive thing . industrial designer: it 's a very positive thing if you see like that . user interface: well , you know , it 's it 's handy , it 's ergonomic , but it 's a banana . project manager: well , do n't forget well , do n't for do n't forget who we 're targeting also who are f f who are wh industrial designer: youngsters . project manager: yeah , youngst youngst user interface: yeah but it says i , i would buy this , so . marketing: actually maybe project manager: no well yeah i if you would be young . marketing: yeah project manager: not telling that you are young . li li like a teenager for instance . user interface: no , it 's i . i would buy industrial designer: project manager: okay you 're you 're crazy teenager and you like fun things . industrial designer: you want to flaunt . project manager: yeah . user interface: industrial designer: you with your girlfriend or something . project manager: yeah , you want to show the beautiful banana you have . user interface: s s industrial designer: or might be it does some other kind of thing but user interface: still i i 'd say two . i do n't think i at any stage in my life i would want a banana remote control , really . industrial designer: uh yeah , crazy . project manager: okay so you s you give user interface: i can say , maybe there is a market for it , i dunno . project manager: oh yeah yeah i know i know . industrial designer: project manager: so you say two . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i say five . project manager: f i d i say five . you say ? marketing: i change the question . project manager: so what 's the new question ? industrial designer: and you have saved it ? marketing: so yeah upload the industrial designer: you 'll have to reload . project manager: uh yeah , i think so . user interface: okay , so , it depends if uh marketing: yeah it 's two different situations . if you really need an universal remote control or if you would change your remote control for a n for a new one . project manager: yeah that 's two different question . user interface: if i had t if i had to spend twenty five euro , if that was like my limit , maybe i would buy it . because the other twenty five euro remote controls are probably gon na look project manager: ugly . user interface: worse than a banana . industrial designer: they 're not going to be as and they they might not be a as easy as this marketing: user interface: and it yeah this is gon na f you know handy to use . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: so ? what now ? what range ? project manager: i stick to five . industrial designer: s user interface: although it still has it still has the word of course at the beginning industrial designer: i go slightly up . six . marketing: six . user interface: so i dunno . um . project manager: w we have six , five user interface: i 'd give it i 'd give it a project manager: three user interface: i give it a four now . industrial designer: marketing: six ? six ? project manager: so we are six , five , four industrial designer: six , five , four . marketing: six , so it 's uh five point five , or less . project manager: yeah . so industrial designer: okay . project manager: so and last question , will i change my rem change my remote control from mando banana . um , zero . no uh we ca n't . marketing: project manager: so one . user interface: marketing: actually yeah , i we project manager: well if . user interface: yeah . project manager: no uh let 's say i 'll put two . user interface: i 'd say three , i mean my remote control is kinda at home is pretty terrible . if it was change my remote control of my d_v_d_ player for a mando banana then i would be more inclined to project manager: it 's for the tv . user interface: but uh 'cause it 's really bad but uh marketing: user interface: i 'd say a three . industrial designer: i 'll still give it five . yeah . marketing: five ? project manager: two three five two three fi and two . marketing: you are romantic , really . industrial designer: so it 's somewhere three point five i think . marketing: i would say two . project manager: so it 's r yeah , three point five . marketing: who is the outlier ? user interface: marketing: wh wh you said five ? project manager: no no you say five , he is the outlier . industrial designer: no i said five . project manager: okay just just do a sum . marketing: i do n't know if it 's a user interface: it 's not very promising but you know we 're not young trendsetters . marketing: no because there are more yeah , we should n't sum like that . project manager: well maybe we should we should uh have a look globally glob marketing: because the the last two questions is much more important than the rest actually . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: otherwise we would n't we will not sell . user interface: is there some some formula you 're using that says you have to sum them up ? marketing: uh no i did n't anything . user interface: well just leave it at that then . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: oops . project manager: so maybe maybe w we can we should stick to general feeling . we can had uh have a out of these numbers , which which is that well we should go for it . marketing: yeah , the uh yeah . project manager: problem with connectors ? marketing: do you want me to sum user interface: no . industrial designer: yeah it 's it 's funny . marketing: o i think it 's not user interface: i think it it kind of you just lose information if you sum it , so . project manager: okay . so let 's move uh let 's move on . industrial designer: yeah , sure . project manager: okay , now now we have to mm to estimate uh the cost okay . so i prepare an excel sh uh an excel sheet . um well we are going to calculate the production costs . we should we should be below twelve point five . so i already uh put some pu some numbers here , okay . we are going to go through so this is the number the mm number of components we need for this thing . so it appears that there were things that we did n't thought about . uh and also things that i uh i d i forget to uh to put like solar cells . user interface: well we decided against the solar cells so industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: oh yeah finally we say no . industrial designer: solar cells , yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah , we said no to that . project manager: okay so let 's let 's go let 's go let go through all the lines . so hand dynamo . this something we did n't thought about . but user interface: you mean , charging it by shaking the banana . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think rechargeable batteries will take care of the power thing . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay so we we stick to battery , one . industrial designer: to bring the cost yeah . project manager: no kinetic also . i do n't i do n't see the difference between kinetic and dynamo . user interface: well maybe dynamo is like you have to actually project manager: ah you have to ah okay i see so kinetic is really uh shaking the banana . user interface: marketing: s user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: crazy . okay . so those banana is falling . let 's go ahead . so we we st only have one for battery . uh then for electronics um so i did n't put anything for the . industrial designer: so we have the regular chip on the print , which is one . project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and that 's it . project manager: okay . no so we hin industrial designer: and we have sample speaker . project manager: yeah so one . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . the cost of that is very high . project manager: ooh ye ye ye the cost is increasing . so we are user interface: well actually that that no that sample speaker is not we we 're not using that , we 're just using the the very beep simple beep , project manager: the beep . user interface: that s that sample thing is like the voice recording and everything . industrial designer: uh-huh . project manager: that 's what industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: okay so i 'll remove it . user interface: so yeah . project manager: s user interface: i say that yeah . project manager: so do n't we need a industrial designer: and we have sev project manager: oh there is no listing for r radio frequency thing . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so industrial designer: so we we 'll put some extras , if there is something . project manager: yeah maybe . we 'll see later . user interface: mm . project manager: okay so in for the case um i put single curved . industrial designer: okay . to reduce the cost , it 's okay . user interface: well , wait a second , project manager: because we have two things . user interface: no , it 's it 's double curved , it 's got a c , it 's uh industrial designer: oh it 's got all the directions project manager: no . industrial designer: so do n't worry . user interface: well d yeah it 's monotonic but marketing: industrial designer: it 's got a direction . user interface: it 's got but if you hold it if you hold it that way that 's two curved , one on this side , one on that side , but they 're opposite sides . project manager: well . what a what i if i put one here . user interface: this is actually i mean this probably marketing: actually what 's the differen user interface: this probably actually costs more than three project manager: yeah so let 's put one here in the then instead of single user interface: if you industrial designer: okay . okay . project manager: oka all right . user interface: yeah . project manager: so we stick to plastic , it cost nothing . industrial designer: yeah . that 's right . user interface: well no did n't we say we wanted to do a rubber project manager: no , it 's too no . user interface: if you drop it ? marketing: too expensive . project manager: it 's too expensive . we 're already at eleven . user interface: well when okay . well we we 'll come back we 'll come back and see if we can fit it in . project manager: okay so i put rubber one . okay so special colour , yellow . user interface: yeah . project manager: uh for the interface we have industrial designer: we do n't have any push buttons . user interface: no , we have two push buttons . project manager: we have three . industrial designer: no that is a scroll wheel itself , it 'll be put in that . user interface: huh . project manager: no no . we have two scroll , and we have three push buttons . industrial designer: ah okay , okay . user interface: uh . industrial designer: okay , okay . project manager: and user interface: okay it 's gon na have to be plastic . marketing: actually whe whe when you wrote regular chip you should put two , because there is another chip here . project manager: no it 's no chip . this is just radio frequency . th this is no chip . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah but industrial designer: no . there 's no chip there . marketing: you need industrial designer: it just emits the signal . project manager: it 's just industrial designer: and the receiver accepts it and that 's it . project manager: yeah . marketing: fo i it does nothing actually ? project manager: no . just only . industrial designer: just se sends the signal , that 's it . user interface: it 's a recharger thing and uh project manager: okay w we did n't think a thought about uh integrated scroll wheel push buttons . user interface: well i actually did um think about it myself but i thought you know because you could potentially you know you could be pushing it down as you scroll it for a instead of a turbo button project manager: yeah , user interface: but you know the turbo button does add that extra class . project manager: so yeah . user interface: you know . so i mean if we 're if we 're over budget then maybe we could we could rethink that . project manager: okay . so no lcd , so for we have no button supplements , right ? industrial designer: yep . no . project manager: uh well in fact could we could not we consider this button as a button supplement because oh no , these are these are for colours , co and special forms , special colours and special materials . user interface: yeah . no we 're not project manager: so user interface: we do n't need anything special for the buttons . project manager: okay so we are over budget . industrial designer: yeah . so first thing which we should take care of is , user interface: make it plastic instead of rubber . industrial designer: instead of rubber , let it be plastic . project manager: yeah . user interface: and then we 're basically o on budget except for you know ten cents . industrial designer: and uh that much money will be required for the base station , which is not there . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: so mayb in fact n we have to put two here marketing: project manager: because it cost nothing . user interface: yeah well pl the base station is made out of m many units of plastic . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: that 's right . project manager: industrial designer: so might be ninety centimes for the the remaining things which the cord and everything which 'll go project manager: exactly exactly so we have margin for that stuff . user interface: does that include charging circuitry and everything ? industrial designer: that 's right . project manager: yeah maybe . okay good . wha industrial designer: yeah . project manager: excellent . user interface: so what do we do with the extra profits ? project manager: um we 'll invest in r_ and d_ . user interface: okay . marketing: user interface: the next fruit . project manager: yeah . so well we 're under the the the cost . so we can go to through to project evaluation . marketing: okay so now we have a product which nobody would would buy . would yeah , would buy . project manager: sorry ? user interface: no we have a product which none of us would buy . marketing: yeah because th th the evaluation project project manager: which is different . which is different . none of us will buy it . user interface: no it 's people in in in milan and uh in paris that are gon na buy it . marketing: ah would buy , yeah . user interface: we 're n marketing: massively , yeah . user interface: yeah . we 're not in milan or paris . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . okay . uh you have been in milan a couple of times , so . project manager: this is a battery . user interface: actually there were a lot of industrial designer: marketing: and you said the lowest . user interface: project manager: this is what we which you can mm industrial designer: s detachable battery . project manager: it did yeah . user interface: that 's 'cause i 'm sick of milan . marketing: yeah , for the batteries project manager: extra battery , yeah . industrial designer: user interface: okay so um project process . project manager: exac well in fact i i did not know i did n't know really what to say here . marketing: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: if uh if you have any ideas of what we can we can say . so i do n't i do n't i do n't understand what what they mean by satisfaction um and for and for example . user interface: project manager: should it be more like um like a status of of the these meetings in fact . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah well in fact uh we we use a little bit the white board and the digital pen , not that much . user interface: i dunno i think we had a fair bit of creativity . project manager: oh yeah it 's really creative . user interface: and uh but i think one thing we m missed out of this whole process was a um like a focus group with the actual people we 're targeting . industrial designer: user interface: we needed some of these kind of young trendsetters to come in and play with the banana and you know see if they project manager: yeah . industrial designer: they like that . user interface: see if they like it . project manager: yeah maybe we should go through , yeah an uh evaluation . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: because yeah the evaluation for us is is kind of pointless . industrial designer: biased . project manager: so maybe you should we should do a kinda evaluation in the streets like asking to young peoples well , do you like to have a banana as a remote control . user interface: yeah . because it it would also be interesting to uh you to know find out if we have a market in really young children as well , to see you know how to how to market this thing . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: 'cause you know if well i mean maybe you do n't wan na give all your kids their own remote because they 'll be changing the channel all the time but you know maybe in some households where there is you know a tv for each kid , then you know , banana remote control could be fun for them as well . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: might have to draw a face on it . so but i think that 's something we need to to work on next time is really finding out more about the target market . project manager: yep . any any new ideas we could uh we could investigate next time ? dunno , oranges ? industrial designer: yeah . the cost of the thing can be made more than might be . because i think it 's just the optimal , what we have done for the cost which we are looking forward to . user interface: yeah . i think there are ways we could maybe simplify the industrial designer: interface . user interface: well just the the the circuit board that we 're using inside , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i 'm not sure really how complicated our um industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: our needs are . i mean all we have is two push buttons and two scrollers , do we really need an integrated circuit to project manager: hmm . user interface: you know to process that . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: so more general remote control instead of just focusing on uh on tv . industrial designer: that 's right . marketing: the complexity should n't be much higher . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: for you said if it good for d_v_d_ then i would user interface: and also fo you know for mood lighting and and stuff , that would be rather cool . i think that 's actually something that should be in version two , is the ability to you know to control things other than the tv industrial designer: integrate . user interface: and not just electronic equipment but you know the whole environment of the room . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: project manager: okay . very good . so industrial designer: so what else ? project manager: well done . i think we we can go industrial designer: okay . home ? project manager: home . industrial designer: happily satisfied . marketing: project manager: yeah . maybe maybe we can hassle the the production department to to make a a real prototype that we can use at home to to evaluate . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: okay so thanks very much . user interface: yep . project manager: bye . user interface: okay . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: thank you . marketing: bye .

project manager agreed that the group had used fairly on the whiteboard and digital pen during the meeting . they all agreed on much creativity satisfaction during the discussion . user interface supplemented that they should focus on broader target markets within the european countries . also , project manager suggested that they should use the same evaluation criteria to do a street survey with young people . the group agreed to improve in an integrated circuit board to control things other than tv .

what did user interface think of the new investigation next time when discussing the project process ? </s> project manager: marketing: project manager: okay . good afternoon again . user interface: project manager: so we should have our final meeting about the detail designed of detail design of the product of the remote control . um so here is the agenda for today . uh uh just going to go quickly through the minutes of the last last uh meeting then we have a p presentation of prototype of you two , sounds interesting . and we 'll have um presentation of evaluation crit criteria by ou our marketing experts . then we 'll have to go through finance evaluation of the of the cost of the thing and um hopefully uh we should fit the target o tw of twelve point five uh uh euro . okay . so let 's go . uh if i go quickly through the minutes of the last meeting . so we went through th uh w we took this following decisions . no lcd , no speech recognition technology , okay , we went through a b to a banana look and feel for the remote control . we went through the use of wheels and but buttons . and also the use of a basis station for battery ch charging and uh also to um call the to call the mot mote remote control when it is lost . okay . um . good . so guys let this uh wonderful thing . industrial designer: okay so we can go to the slides . project manager: oh yeah . sorry . um . industrial designer: yeah . number three . oh number two sorry . project manager: which is industrial designer: so final design . final design . okay so michael you can go ahead . user interface: yeah so uh following our decision to uh make a yellow well to make a banana project manager: yeah can you show it to the the camera maybe . user interface: remote okay so we actually have a industrial designer: you can pull it out first , maybe . user interface: we 've well first first of all we made a an attractive base station uh with a banana leaf uh look and feel um and uh project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: bana sit the banana sits in there k you know nicely weighted so that it 's not gon na tip over and um this is the remote itself , it 's kind of it 's it 's ergonomic , it fits in the hand uh rather well . we 've got the two uh uh scroll wheels here which you know one on the the left for the uh volume and the one on the right for for the channel and uh underneath we have the uh the turbo button which is in like a nice uh trigger position for you know for pressing quite naturally . project manager: what 's the use uh of the t turbo button already ? user interface: this is when you when you uh are scrolling the uh through the channels you can tell it to to skip th past channels that you quickly rather th project manager: ah yeah yeah an then you stop when you stop it stops . user interface: yeah . well when you stop scrolling the wheel it stops . but normally with uh it will just uh s stay on each station briefly so you can see the the picture . industrial designer: uh project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: and we we do have one more functionality . if you take the banana as such and uh you press the turbo button , so it switch ons the switch ons the tv . user interface: the tv yeah . project manager: which one ? user interface: the s the turbo button . industrial designer: the turbo button . project manager: okay . user interface: so rather than having uh an extra button for um for the on off switch you just use the turbo button . industrial designer: additional button . marketing: what this button for ? user interface: this is a teletext button . so once you press that then you get teletext marketing: okay . user interface: and you can use the the channel selector scroll wheel as uh project manager: to navigate it through th through teletext . user interface: to navigate yeah . marketing: but if you want to go to page seven hundred ? industrial designer: that 's right , that 's right . user interface: yeah . project manager: with the wheel it 's easy . marketing: how man user interface: well then you can you you have like a little uh number selection thing , you press the the the teletext button uh to move between uh the fields and then you can just scroll the number back and forth so you have s you go you scroll to seven and then zero zero and then you can uh marketing: i do n't understand it . can you repeat it ? user interface: well you can you can press press the teletext button industrial designer: user interface: and then you then you can you can f industrial designer: so then then both the scroll buttons they are for teletext browsing . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and you can tele marketing: ah okay okay . okay . okay okay . industrial designer: yeah , user interface: mm uh industrial designer: once you press the teletext button then the scroll buttons they are more for teletext , they are no more for channel or vol volume . marketing: okay . i see . i see . okay . okay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and this is the uh the infrared uh port . industrial designer: that 's right . user interface: also the top of the banana . project manager: excellent . user interface: so . and then we have industrial designer: yeah . user interface: in the uh in the base station we have the the button at the front for uh for calling the uh the banana . project manager: calling . excellent . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and the the leaves plays the roles of of antennas ? user interface: actually they do . project manager: oh . user interface: that 's that 's yeah that 's uh that 's form and function in the one in the one uh object . industrial designer: yeah . so it always means , whatever the rays goes by they they get reflected and then you are having a better coverage . user interface: industrial designer: it 's like antennas . user interface: yeah . so . marketing: user interface: but yeah that 's um that 's just like that 's an attractive um base station . project manager: great . user interface: so . project manager: so , what else ? user interface: okay . industrial designer: and for the power source we are having solar cells and rechargeable batteries and this and uh the basis station is going to have the input from the mm power line for for charging the batteries . marketing: is it really weight ? is it light or industrial designer: it is very light . project manager: yeah , they 're light . user interface: it 's it 's uh it 's about the weight of a banana . marketing: okay . project manager: marketing: okay . user interface: you know , to give you the correct look and feel . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: ok industrial designer: and we have put these different colours so that people do n't mistake them mistake it as a banana . user interface: industrial designer: otherwise it 's you know a child comes and so marketing: okay . yeah yeah yeah , i see . i under i understand . user interface: i think a child would try to eat it anyway , so maybe we should industrial designer: yeah . user interface: consider that . maybe health and safety aspects . project manager: ah yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: industrial designer: oh we did n't think of that yet . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: so for the power source , apparently you still you you want to use both solar cells and batteries . industrial designer: oh yeah that 's right . project manager: uh you mean okay . so user interface: i do n't really know if the solar cells are actually necessary any more if you have a recharging base station . project manager: yeah , where are going to where are you are you going to place them ? industrial designer: mm-hmm mm-hmm . it 'll it 'll be always at top somewhere at there . user interface: if i was gon na place them i 'd put them on the on the top here since that 's like uh the black bit project manager: you have enough surface ? you user interface: but yeah i do n't i really do n't think it 's necessary to have the solar cells anymore . industrial designer: yeah because now we are having rechargeable batteries project manager: okay . user interface: mm . industrial designer: so that that is . project manager: what will be the autonomy ? roughly ? user interface: the what sorry ? project manager: the autonomy . autonomy . user interface: what do you mean ? project manager: uh i mean how long does i how how how long can it be held off a station ? marketing: how long the how long the bit the batteries long . user interface: ah . ah . a long time . project manager: yeah . a long user interface: no no no , industrial designer: eight to ten eight to ten hours . marketing: user interface: it can it should be weeks . industrial designer: n most no most of the time it 's not being used . project manager: yeah , so it 's user interface: yeah but y people do n't like to put it back in the base station all the time people leave wan na leave it on the couch so industrial designer: so when when you are making it on project manager: it 's used only when you industrial designer: mm . mm-hmm . no eight or eight or ten hours of working . user interface: ah , okay . industrial designer: if you are just leaving like that it 'll be much longer . user interface: okay . project manager: yeah . f weeks . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . that 's right . project manager: right . next slide ? industrial designer: yeah . and we are having the speakers regular chip for control . pricing is was a factor so that 's why we have gone for a regular chip only not the advanced chip . and uh that 's it . project manager: okay . okay . those really sounds very good . industrial designer: that 's right . project manager: nothing else to add ? user interface: it seems to be falling over . marketing: i l yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: i like i like it . maybe the the thing that convince me the less is the the multifunctional buttons . looks a bit industrial designer: you want to have more functional buttons ? marketing: looks a bit puzzled uh i dunno how to say that . industrial designer: you are not convinced . marketing: you the the b the buttons change h h their function depending if y it 's teletext or not industrial designer: not not many , we we want to keep it simple . so that this button fo is for teletext which is usually also the case , that usually there is a teletext button and once you press that , the channel buttons , they baco become the scrolling buttons . marketing: and the volume button will will become industrial designer: it 's up to you , means . project manager: well in fact b both will be could be useful , navigating through teletext . industrial designer: now that means let 's say this this can move the the larger digits and this can move the smaller digits . user interface: or can move between positions in the in the number . industrial designer: that 's right . project manager: yeah . marketing: and what about people who want to use digits ? butto real buttons ? project manager: wow . industrial designer: yeah . so there was there was a constraint that the surface area which we have on this banana on one side because of the shape . marketing: industrial designer: so we are targeting a segment which is which is just very trendy kind of thing , they they do n't care about the buttons any more . and anyway marketing: okay . because have you thought about configuration and all this kind of uh stuff ? user interface: it 's all automatic . marketing: it 's all automatic . user interface: yep . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: okay . okay yeah it 's fine . project manager: very good uh yeah marketing: w we are living in a wonderful world . project manager: you th yeah . user interface: uh . industrial designer: project manager: bananas everywhere . industrial designer: project manager: okay , so marketing: automatically configure . project manager: marketing: project manager: so we have to go through now evaluations . industrial designer: evalua yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so your slides are ready ? marketing: s project manager: uh you 're four i think . marketing: yeah . project manager: so this is one , which one is this one ? marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: okay . i i const i constructed a a list of criteria based on the on the general user requirements . and each criteria is will be evaluated it 's uh logical criteria so we must users must say i if it 's true or is or if it 's false in a in a scale ranging from zero to seven . industrial designer: why this strange factor of seven ? marketing: because i i 'm sorry . sorry . industrial designer: usually i have seen that scales are from one to ten . marketing: ah yeah . it 's from sorry , it 's from one to seven . it 's from from one to seven sorry . because it should be an even it should be an even uh scale , industrial designer: okay . project manager: num number industrial designer: okay . mm-hmm . marketing: and five is too short and nine is too long . industrial designer: okay . marketing: i 'm a i i 'm industrial designer: okay fine , got the idea . project manager: so to have in order to have enough granularity marketing: sorry ? project manager: it 's in order to have enough granularity in the evaluation . marketing: yeah yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: the variance is mi it 's is minimal . project manager: okay . industrial designer: okay , okay , great . marketing: i 'm um answering your question . industrial designer: okay . yeah yeah . marketing: okay . industrial designer: go ahead . marketing: and that 's the criteria i i found more useful . i think i sh i i could write the criteria in the on the whiteboard ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . sure . marketing: and we all four could range industrial designer: okay . yeah yeah . yeah . marketing: could evaluate the project manager: okay . marketing: industrial designer: so you can say fancy , handy . handy . marketing: okay let 's let 's evaluate if it 's fancy or industrial designer: yeah , it 's fancy , according to me . marketing: seven but user interface: project manager: yeah , six . industrial designer: project manager: s seven . industrial designer: seven . seven by me . project manager: six . marketing: i would say seven . industrial designer: okay . marketing: it 's quite fancy . industrial designer: so you can add seven plus six plus seven plus user interface: project manager: no , wait . user interface: yeah uh five . project manager: what do you say seven ? five ? industrial designer: five . user interface: five , maybe maybe maybe six it 's it 's i guess it 's project manager: okay , six point five . user interface: yeah . project manager: handy ? user interface: industrial designer: again i 'll give seven . project manager: seven . user interface: i 'd give it a six like i 'd i think it 's probably more handy than my current remote , 'cause of the scroll wheels marketing: six . industrial designer: yep . user interface: but maybe loses the point for not having you know the extra buttons when you reall if you do need them for some reason but you know you can always use your other remote . project manager: so seven , seven , industrial designer: seven for me . project manager: six , user interface: yeah . marketing: six . project manager: six point five . functional . user interface: industrial designer: i 'll give five . project manager: four . marketing: i would say project manager: industrial designer: user interface: well it depends when you say functional , do you mean it does what we want it to do , or d does what it does , you know , can it make you coffee ? marketing: everything ar project manager: uh for a remote control , does he have all the user interface: you know . marketing: mm everything user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: you could expect . marketing: it 's compared to the all industrial designer: that 's right . marketing: remote controls . user interface: that 's before industrial designer: that 's right . the standards . what is available in the market off the shelf . user interface: yeah . i have to say four . marketing: actually i do n't know what are the r the real specification of a of a universal remote contro user interface: well it 's not a universal remote . remember we 're focus we 're supposed to focus just on tvs . industrial designer: we marketing: ah it 's not an univer but it 's for all kind of tvs ? project manager: yeah . user interface: well all tvs but only t_ only tvs i guess . project manager: so it 's universal but for tvs . so s uh four ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: five . project manager: five ? user interface: four . project manager: four . marketing: four . four . industrial designer: so four point two ? user interface: just four . project manager: four . industrial designer: four . user interface: obviously there are some outliers so marketing: so four ? project manager: okay cool ? cool device . industrial designer: marketing: industrial designer: there i 'll give it seven . project manager: marketing: it means cool features , like new features actually . industrial designer: that 's right . user interface: which industrial designer: for a tv the most important feature which i felt was the locator which is a cool feature . and then the scroll buttons are again cool features . we do n't have lcd for it but that we decided we do n't want to have . project manager: yeah . seven . marketing: i would say five . user interface: i 'll say five . project manager: six . industrial designer: mm-hmm . seven . project manager: plus six , i say i said seven . user interface: yeah . project manager: so it 's six . user interface: s yeah . marketing: you said seven ? project manager: yeah . user interface: 'cause it 's five five seven seven so industrial designer: okay . user interface: uh , okay , definitely easy to use . industrial designer: definitely seven . user interface: seven . project manager: seven . seven . and you ? outl you are not lik outlier . marketing: five . user interface: project manager: seven industrial designer: project manager: okay okay okay okay . industrial designer: okay . marketing: sorry , i have them user interface: alright , now here 's the sixty million dollar question , project manager: user interface: well , twenty five twenty five euro question . project manager: of course i 'll buy the banana . user interface: what do you what do you guys reckon ? marketing: of cour of course the most difficult question for the end . project manager: well industrial designer: i 'll say five . user interface: hmm . industrial designer: i 'll say five . project manager: twenty five euros . cheap . industrial designer: marketing: i find it quite cheap actually . user interface: marketing: i dunno . if i i it depends , if you live in in switzerland or you live in project manager: yeah , so the target price is for all europe , or only for rich countries ? it 's more targeting u_k_ or marketing: i do n't know . wha the initial specifications were for the whole all europe or user interface: uh project manager: so this is selling costs , not production costs . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah this is the the initial specifications . project manager: yeah yeah sure . um five . marketing: i would say six . it 's quite cheap actually . user interface: i 'd say two . project manager: aw , should be nice in your industrial designer: why ? user interface: i do n't want a banana on my living room table , a banana remote . marketing: industrial designer: no but it 's really handy actually if you see . user interface: it is handy , it 's handy , but it it 's terrible . industrial designer: it 's it 's so handy . and then project manager: it 's kitsch . industrial designer: anyb anybody who comes here anybody who comes to your home he 'll at least ask once what is this . user interface: yeah . yeah , but it 's not a positive thing . industrial designer: it 's a very positive thing if you see like that . user interface: well , you know , it 's it 's handy , it 's ergonomic , but it 's a banana . project manager: well , do n't forget well , do n't for do n't forget who we 're targeting also who are f f who are wh industrial designer: youngsters . project manager: yeah , youngst youngst user interface: yeah but it says i , i would buy this , so . marketing: actually maybe project manager: no well yeah i if you would be young . marketing: yeah project manager: not telling that you are young . li li like a teenager for instance . user interface: no , it 's i . i would buy industrial designer: project manager: okay you 're you 're crazy teenager and you like fun things . industrial designer: you want to flaunt . project manager: yeah . user interface: industrial designer: you with your girlfriend or something . project manager: yeah , you want to show the beautiful banana you have . user interface: s s industrial designer: or might be it does some other kind of thing but user interface: still i i 'd say two . i do n't think i at any stage in my life i would want a banana remote control , really . industrial designer: uh yeah , crazy . project manager: okay so you s you give user interface: i can say , maybe there is a market for it , i dunno . project manager: oh yeah yeah i know i know . industrial designer: project manager: so you say two . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i say five . project manager: f i d i say five . you say ? marketing: i change the question . project manager: so what 's the new question ? industrial designer: and you have saved it ? marketing: so yeah upload the industrial designer: you 'll have to reload . project manager: uh yeah , i think so . user interface: okay , so , it depends if uh marketing: yeah it 's two different situations . if you really need an universal remote control or if you would change your remote control for a n for a new one . project manager: yeah that 's two different question . user interface: if i had t if i had to spend twenty five euro , if that was like my limit , maybe i would buy it . because the other twenty five euro remote controls are probably gon na look project manager: ugly . user interface: worse than a banana . industrial designer: they 're not going to be as and they they might not be a as easy as this marketing: user interface: and it yeah this is gon na f you know handy to use . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: so ? what now ? what range ? project manager: i stick to five . industrial designer: s user interface: although it still has it still has the word of course at the beginning industrial designer: i go slightly up . six . marketing: six . user interface: so i dunno . um . project manager: w we have six , five user interface: i 'd give it i 'd give it a project manager: three user interface: i give it a four now . industrial designer: marketing: six ? six ? project manager: so we are six , five , four industrial designer: six , five , four . marketing: six , so it 's uh five point five , or less . project manager: yeah . so industrial designer: okay . project manager: so and last question , will i change my rem change my remote control from mando banana . um , zero . no uh we ca n't . marketing: project manager: so one . user interface: marketing: actually yeah , i we project manager: well if . user interface: yeah . project manager: no uh let 's say i 'll put two . user interface: i 'd say three , i mean my remote control is kinda at home is pretty terrible . if it was change my remote control of my d_v_d_ player for a mando banana then i would be more inclined to project manager: it 's for the tv . user interface: but uh 'cause it 's really bad but uh marketing: user interface: i 'd say a three . industrial designer: i 'll still give it five . yeah . marketing: five ? project manager: two three five two three fi and two . marketing: you are romantic , really . industrial designer: so it 's somewhere three point five i think . marketing: i would say two . project manager: so it 's r yeah , three point five . marketing: who is the outlier ? user interface: marketing: wh wh you said five ? project manager: no no you say five , he is the outlier . industrial designer: no i said five . project manager: okay just just do a sum . marketing: i do n't know if it 's a user interface: it 's not very promising but you know we 're not young trendsetters . marketing: no because there are more yeah , we should n't sum like that . project manager: well maybe we should we should uh have a look globally glob marketing: because the the last two questions is much more important than the rest actually . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: otherwise we would n't we will not sell . user interface: is there some some formula you 're using that says you have to sum them up ? marketing: uh no i did n't anything . user interface: well just leave it at that then . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: oops . project manager: so maybe maybe w we can we should stick to general feeling . we can had uh have a out of these numbers , which which is that well we should go for it . marketing: yeah , the uh yeah . project manager: problem with connectors ? marketing: do you want me to sum user interface: no . industrial designer: yeah it 's it 's funny . marketing: o i think it 's not user interface: i think it it kind of you just lose information if you sum it , so . project manager: okay . so let 's move uh let 's move on . industrial designer: yeah , sure . project manager: okay , now now we have to mm to estimate uh the cost okay . so i prepare an excel sh uh an excel sheet . um well we are going to calculate the production costs . we should we should be below twelve point five . so i already uh put some pu some numbers here , okay . we are going to go through so this is the number the mm number of components we need for this thing . so it appears that there were things that we did n't thought about . uh and also things that i uh i d i forget to uh to put like solar cells . user interface: well we decided against the solar cells so industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: oh yeah finally we say no . industrial designer: solar cells , yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah , we said no to that . project manager: okay so let 's let 's go let 's go let go through all the lines . so hand dynamo . this something we did n't thought about . but user interface: you mean , charging it by shaking the banana . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think rechargeable batteries will take care of the power thing . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay so we we stick to battery , one . industrial designer: to bring the cost yeah . project manager: no kinetic also . i do n't i do n't see the difference between kinetic and dynamo . user interface: well maybe dynamo is like you have to actually project manager: ah you have to ah okay i see so kinetic is really uh shaking the banana . user interface: marketing: s user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: crazy . okay . so those banana is falling . let 's go ahead . so we we st only have one for battery . uh then for electronics um so i did n't put anything for the . industrial designer: so we have the regular chip on the print , which is one . project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and that 's it . project manager: okay . no so we hin industrial designer: and we have sample speaker . project manager: yeah so one . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . the cost of that is very high . project manager: ooh ye ye ye the cost is increasing . so we are user interface: well actually that that no that sample speaker is not we we 're not using that , we 're just using the the very beep simple beep , project manager: the beep . user interface: that s that sample thing is like the voice recording and everything . industrial designer: uh-huh . project manager: that 's what industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: okay so i 'll remove it . user interface: so yeah . project manager: s user interface: i say that yeah . project manager: so do n't we need a industrial designer: and we have sev project manager: oh there is no listing for r radio frequency thing . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so industrial designer: so we we 'll put some extras , if there is something . project manager: yeah maybe . we 'll see later . user interface: mm . project manager: okay so in for the case um i put single curved . industrial designer: okay . to reduce the cost , it 's okay . user interface: well , wait a second , project manager: because we have two things . user interface: no , it 's it 's double curved , it 's got a c , it 's uh industrial designer: oh it 's got all the directions project manager: no . industrial designer: so do n't worry . user interface: well d yeah it 's monotonic but marketing: industrial designer: it 's got a direction . user interface: it 's got but if you hold it if you hold it that way that 's two curved , one on this side , one on that side , but they 're opposite sides . project manager: well . what a what i if i put one here . user interface: this is actually i mean this probably marketing: actually what 's the differen user interface: this probably actually costs more than three project manager: yeah so let 's put one here in the then instead of single user interface: if you industrial designer: okay . okay . project manager: oka all right . user interface: yeah . project manager: so we stick to plastic , it cost nothing . industrial designer: yeah . that 's right . user interface: well no did n't we say we wanted to do a rubber project manager: no , it 's too no . user interface: if you drop it ? marketing: too expensive . project manager: it 's too expensive . we 're already at eleven . user interface: well when okay . well we we 'll come back we 'll come back and see if we can fit it in . project manager: okay so i put rubber one . okay so special colour , yellow . user interface: yeah . project manager: uh for the interface we have industrial designer: we do n't have any push buttons . user interface: no , we have two push buttons . project manager: we have three . industrial designer: no that is a scroll wheel itself , it 'll be put in that . user interface: huh . project manager: no no . we have two scroll , and we have three push buttons . industrial designer: ah okay , okay . user interface: uh . industrial designer: okay , okay . project manager: and user interface: okay it 's gon na have to be plastic . marketing: actually whe whe when you wrote regular chip you should put two , because there is another chip here . project manager: no it 's no chip . this is just radio frequency . th this is no chip . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah but industrial designer: no . there 's no chip there . marketing: you need industrial designer: it just emits the signal . project manager: it 's just industrial designer: and the receiver accepts it and that 's it . project manager: yeah . marketing: fo i it does nothing actually ? project manager: no . just only . industrial designer: just se sends the signal , that 's it . user interface: it 's a recharger thing and uh project manager: okay w we did n't think a thought about uh integrated scroll wheel push buttons . user interface: well i actually did um think about it myself but i thought you know because you could potentially you know you could be pushing it down as you scroll it for a instead of a turbo button project manager: yeah , user interface: but you know the turbo button does add that extra class . project manager: so yeah . user interface: you know . so i mean if we 're if we 're over budget then maybe we could we could rethink that . project manager: okay . so no lcd , so for we have no button supplements , right ? industrial designer: yep . no . project manager: uh well in fact could we could not we consider this button as a button supplement because oh no , these are these are for colours , co and special forms , special colours and special materials . user interface: yeah . no we 're not project manager: so user interface: we do n't need anything special for the buttons . project manager: okay so we are over budget . industrial designer: yeah . so first thing which we should take care of is , user interface: make it plastic instead of rubber . industrial designer: instead of rubber , let it be plastic . project manager: yeah . user interface: and then we 're basically o on budget except for you know ten cents . industrial designer: and uh that much money will be required for the base station , which is not there . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: so mayb in fact n we have to put two here marketing: project manager: because it cost nothing . user interface: yeah well pl the base station is made out of m many units of plastic . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: that 's right . project manager: industrial designer: so might be ninety centimes for the the remaining things which the cord and everything which 'll go project manager: exactly exactly so we have margin for that stuff . user interface: does that include charging circuitry and everything ? industrial designer: that 's right . project manager: yeah maybe . okay good . wha industrial designer: yeah . project manager: excellent . user interface: so what do we do with the extra profits ? project manager: um we 'll invest in r_ and d_ . user interface: okay . marketing: user interface: the next fruit . project manager: yeah . so well we 're under the the the cost . so we can go to through to project evaluation . marketing: okay so now we have a product which nobody would would buy . would yeah , would buy . project manager: sorry ? user interface: no we have a product which none of us would buy . marketing: yeah because th th the evaluation project project manager: which is different . which is different . none of us will buy it . user interface: no it 's people in in in milan and uh in paris that are gon na buy it . marketing: ah would buy , yeah . user interface: we 're n marketing: massively , yeah . user interface: yeah . we 're not in milan or paris . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . okay . uh you have been in milan a couple of times , so . project manager: this is a battery . user interface: actually there were a lot of industrial designer: marketing: and you said the lowest . user interface: project manager: this is what we which you can mm industrial designer: s detachable battery . project manager: it did yeah . user interface: that 's 'cause i 'm sick of milan . marketing: yeah , for the batteries project manager: extra battery , yeah . industrial designer: user interface: okay so um project process . project manager: exac well in fact i i did not know i did n't know really what to say here . marketing: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: if uh if you have any ideas of what we can we can say . so i do n't i do n't i do n't understand what what they mean by satisfaction um and for and for example . user interface: project manager: should it be more like um like a status of of the these meetings in fact . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah well in fact uh we we use a little bit the white board and the digital pen , not that much . user interface: i dunno i think we had a fair bit of creativity . project manager: oh yeah it 's really creative . user interface: and uh but i think one thing we m missed out of this whole process was a um like a focus group with the actual people we 're targeting . industrial designer: user interface: we needed some of these kind of young trendsetters to come in and play with the banana and you know see if they project manager: yeah . industrial designer: they like that . user interface: see if they like it . project manager: yeah maybe we should go through , yeah an uh evaluation . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: because yeah the evaluation for us is is kind of pointless . industrial designer: biased . project manager: so maybe you should we should do a kinda evaluation in the streets like asking to young peoples well , do you like to have a banana as a remote control . user interface: yeah . because it it would also be interesting to uh you to know find out if we have a market in really young children as well , to see you know how to how to market this thing . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: 'cause you know if well i mean maybe you do n't wan na give all your kids their own remote because they 'll be changing the channel all the time but you know maybe in some households where there is you know a tv for each kid , then you know , banana remote control could be fun for them as well . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: might have to draw a face on it . so but i think that 's something we need to to work on next time is really finding out more about the target market . project manager: yep . any any new ideas we could uh we could investigate next time ? dunno , oranges ? industrial designer: yeah . the cost of the thing can be made more than might be . because i think it 's just the optimal , what we have done for the cost which we are looking forward to . user interface: yeah . i think there are ways we could maybe simplify the industrial designer: interface . user interface: well just the the the circuit board that we 're using inside , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i 'm not sure really how complicated our um industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: our needs are . i mean all we have is two push buttons and two scrollers , do we really need an integrated circuit to project manager: hmm . user interface: you know to process that . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: so more general remote control instead of just focusing on uh on tv . industrial designer: that 's right . marketing: the complexity should n't be much higher . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: for you said if it good for d_v_d_ then i would user interface: and also fo you know for mood lighting and and stuff , that would be rather cool . i think that 's actually something that should be in version two , is the ability to you know to control things other than the tv industrial designer: integrate . user interface: and not just electronic equipment but you know the whole environment of the room . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: project manager: okay . very good . so industrial designer: so what else ? project manager: well done . i think we we can go industrial designer: okay . home ? project manager: home . industrial designer: happily satisfied . marketing: project manager: yeah . maybe maybe we can hassle the the production department to to make a a real prototype that we can use at home to to evaluate . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: okay so thanks very much . user interface: yep . project manager: bye . user interface: okay . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: thank you . marketing: bye .

user interface suggested two new ideas . firstly , to simplify the circuit board that they were using inside . this was because the group might need an integrated circuit . secondly , version two could have the ability to control things other than the tv and not just electronic equipment but the whole environment of the room .

summarize the meeting </s> phd f: and we 're on . professor d: ok . might wan na close the door so that uh , stephane will phd f: i 'll get it . professor d: yeah phd f: hey dave ? could you go ahead and turn on , uh , stephane 's grad c: mm - hmm . professor d: so that 's the virtual stephane over there . phd f: ok . professor g: do you use a pc for recording ? or phd f: uh , yeah , a linux box . yeah . it 's got , uh , like sixteen channels going into it . professor g: uh - huh . uh - huh . the quality is quite good ? or ? phd f: mm - hmm . yeah , so far , it 's been pretty good . professor g: mm - hmm . professor d: yeah . so , uh , yeah the suggestion was to have these guys start to phd f: ok . why do n't you go ahead , dave ? grad c: ok . um , so , yeah , the this past week i 've been main mainly occupied with , um , getting some results , u from the sri system trained on this short hub - five training set for the mean subtraction method . and , um , i ran some tests last night . but , um , c the results are suspicious . um , it 's , um , cuz they 're the baseline results are worse than , um , andreas than results andreas got previously . and it could have something to do with , um phd f: that 's on digits ? grad c: that 's on digits . it c it it could h it could have something to do with , um , downsampling . phd f: hmm . grad c: that 's that 's worth looking into . um , d and , um , ap ap apart from that , i guess the the main thing i have t ta i have to talk is , um , where i 'm planning to go over the next week . um . so i 've been working on integrating this mean subtraction approach into the smartkom system . and there 's this question of , well , so , um , in my tests before with htk i found it worked it worked the best with about twelve seconds of data used to estimate the mean , but , we 'll often have less { comment } in the smartkom system . um . so i think we 'll use as much data as we have at a particular time , and we 'll we 'll concatenate utterances together , um , to get as much data as we possibly can from the user . but , um , there 's a question of how to set up the models . so um , we could train the models . if we think twelve seconds is ideal we could train the models using twelve seconds to calculate the mean , to mean subtract the training data . or we could , um , use some other amount . so like i did an experiment where i , um , was using six seconds in test , um , but , for i tried twelve seconds in train . and i tried , um , um , the same in train i 'm a i tried six seconds in train . and six seconds in train was about point three percent better . um , and um , it 's not clear to me yet whether that 's something significant . so i wan na do some tests and , um , actually make some plots of , um for a particular amount of data and test what happens if you vary the amount of data in train . phd f: mm - hmm . professor d: uh , guenter , i do n't know if you t followed this stuff but this is , uh , a uh , uh , long - term long - term window f f yeah . yeah , he you talked about it . professor g: yeah , we we spoke about it already , professor d: oh , ok . so you know what he 's doing . professor g: yeah . professor d: alright . grad c: y s so i was i actually ran the experiments mostly and i i was i was hoping to have the plots with me today . i just did n't get to it . but , um yeah , i wou i would be curious about people 's feedback on this cuz i 'm @ @ { comment } i p i think there are some i think it 's it 's kind of like a a bit of a tricky engineering problem . i 'm trying to figure out what 's the optimal way to set this up . so , um , i 'll try to make the plots and then put some postscript up on my on my web page . and i 'll mention it in my status report if people wan na take a look . professor d: you could clarify something for me . you 're saying point three percent , you take a point three percent hit , when the training and testing links are do n't match or something ? phd e: hello . professor d: is that what it is ? grad c: w well , it c professor d: or ? grad c: i i do n't think it it 's just for any mismatch you take a hit . professor d: yeah . grad c: i in some cases it might be u better to have a mismatch . like i think i saw something like like if you only have two seconds in test , or , um , maybe it was something like four seconds , you actually do a little better if you , um , train on six seconds than if you train on four seconds . professor d: yeah . right . grad c: um , but the case , uh with the point three percent hit was using six seconds in test , um , comparing train on twelve seconds { comment } versus train on six seconds . professor d: and which was worse ? grad c: the train on twelve seconds . professor d: ok . but point three percent , uh , w from what to what ? that 's point three percent grad c: on the the the accuracies w went from it was something vaguely like ninety - five point six accuracy , um , improved to ninety - five point nine wh when i professor d: so four point four to four point one . grad c: ok . professor d: so yeah . so about a about an eight percent , uh , seven or eight percent relative ? grad c: ok . professor d: uh , yeah . well , i think in a p you know , if if you were going for an evaluation system you 'd care . but if you were doing a live system that people were actually using nobody would notice . it 's uh , i think the thing is to get something that 's practical , that that you could really use . grad c: huh . that 's that 's interesting . alright , the e uh , i see your point . i guess i was thinking of it as , um , an interesting research problem . the how to g i was thinking that for the asru paper we could have a section saying , `` for smartkom , we we d in we tried this approach in , uh , interactive system `` , which i do n't think has been done before . professor d: yeah . mm - hmm . grad c: and and then there was two research questions from that . professor d: mm - hmm . grad c: and one is the k does it still work if you just use the past history ? professor d: mm - hmm . grad c: alright , and the other was this question of , um what i was just talking about now . so i guess that 's why i thought it was interesting . professor d: i mean , a short - time fft short - time cepstrum calculation , uh , mean u mean calculation work that people have in commercial systems , they do this all the time . they the they calculate it from previous utterances and then use it , you know . grad c: yeah , um . professor d: but but , uh , as you say , there has n't been that much with this long long - time , uh , spectra work . grad c: oh , o oh , ok . professor d: uh , grad c: so that 's that 's that 's standard . um professor d: yeah . pretty common . grad c: ok . professor d: yeah . um , but , u uh , yes . no , it is interesting . and the other thing is , i mean , there 's two sides to these really small , uh , gradations in performance . um , i mean , on the one hand in a practical system if something is , uh , four point four percent error , four point one percent error , people wo n't really tell be able to tell the difference . on the other hand , when you 're doing , uh , research , you may , eh you might find that the way that you build up a change from a ninety - five percent accurate system to a ninety - eight percent accurate system is through ten or twelve little things that you do that each are point three percent . so so the they they it 's i do n't mean to say that they 're they 're irrelevant . uh , they are relevant . but , um , i for a demo , you wo n't see it . grad c: mm - hmm . right . ok . professor d: yeah . grad c: and , um , let 's l let 's see . um , ok . and then there 's um , another thing i wan na start looking at , um , wi is , um , the choice of the analysis window length . so i 've just been using two seconds just because that 's what carlos did before . uh , i wrote to him asking about he chose the two seconds . and it seemed like he chose it a bit informally . so , um , with the with the htk set - up i should be able to do some experiments , on just varying that length , say between one and three seconds , in a few different reverberation conditions , um , say this room and also a few of the artificial impulse responses we have for reverberation , just , um , making some plots and seeing how they look . and , um , so , with the the sampling rate i was using , one second or two seconds or four seconds is at a power of two um , number of samples and , um , i 'll i 'll jus f for the ones in between i guess i 'll just zero - pad . professor d: mm - hmm . i guess one thing that might also be an issue , uh , cuz part of what you 're doing is you 're getting a a spectrum over a bunch of different kinds of speech sounds . um , and so it might matter how fast someone was talking for instance . grad c: oh . professor d: you know , if you if if if there 's a lot of phones in one second maybe you 'll get a a really good sampling of all these different things , and and , uh , on the other hand if someone 's talking slowly maybe you 'd need more . so grad c: huh . professor d: i do n't know if you have some samples of faster or slower speech but it might make a difference . i do n't know . grad c: uh , yeah , i do n't i do n't think the ti - digits data that i have , um , i is would be appropriate for that . professor d: yeah , probably not . yeah . grad c: but what do you what about if i w i fed it through some kind of , um , speech processing algorithm that changed the speech rate ? professor d: yeah , but then you 'll have the degradation of of , uh , whatever you do uh , added onto that . but maybe . yeah , maybe if you get something that sounds that that 's does a pretty job at that . grad c: yeah . well , uh , just if you think it 's worth looking into . professor d: you could imagine that . grad c: i mean , it it is getting a little away from reverberation . professor d: um , yeah . it 's just that you 're making a choice uh , i was thinking more from the system aspect , if you 're making a choice for smartkom , that that that it might be that it 's it c the optimal number could be different , depending on grad c: yeah . right . professor d: could be . i do n't know . grad c: and and th the third thing , um , uh , is , um , barry explained lda filtering to me yesterday . and so , um , mike shire in his thesis um , did a a series of experiments , um , training lda filters in d on different conditions . and you were interested in having me repeat this for for this mean subtraction approach ? is is that right ? or for these long analysis windows , i guess , is the right way to put it . professor d: i guess , the the the issue i was the general issue i was bringing up was that if you 're have a moving moving window , uh , a wa a a set of weights times things that , uh , move along , shift along in time , that you have in fact a linear time invariant filter . and you just happened to have picked a particular one by setting all the weights to be equal . and so the issue is what are some other filters that you could use , uh , in that sense of `` filter `` ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor d: and , um , as i was saying , i think the simplest thing to do is not to train anything , but just to do some sort of , uh , uh , hamming or hanning , uh , kind of window , kind of thing , grad c: right . mm - hmm . professor d: just sort of to de - emphasize the jarring . so i think that would sort of be the first thing to do . but then , yeah , the lda i uh , is interesting because it would sort of say well , suppose you actually trained this up to do the best you could by some criterion , what would the filter look like then ? grad c: uh - huh . professor d: uh , and , um , that 's sort of what we 're doing in this aur - aurora stuff . and , uh , it 's still not clear to me in the long run whether the best thing to do would be to do that or to have some stylized version of the filter that looks like these things you 've trained up , because you always have the problem that it 's trained up for one condition and it is n't quite right for another . so . uh that 's that 's why that 's why rasta filter has actually ended up lasting a long time , people still using it quite a bit , because y you do n't change it . so does n't get any worse . uh , grad c: huh . professor d: anyway . grad c: o ok . so , um , a actually i was just thinking about what i was asking about earlier , wi which is about having less than say twelve seconds in the smartkom system to do the mean subtraction . you said in systems where you use cepstral mean subtraction , they concatenate utterances and , do you know how they address this issue of , um , testing versus training ? can professor d: go ahead . professor g: i think what they do is they do it always on - line , i mean , that you just take what you have from the past , that you calculate the mean of this and subtract the mean . grad c: ok . um professor g: and then you can yeah , you you can increase your window whi while you get while you are getting more samples . grad c: ok , um , and , um , so so in tha in that case , wh what do they do when they 're t um , performing the cepstral mean subtraction on the training data ? so because you 'd have hours and hours of training data . so do they cut it off and start over ? at intervals ? or ? professor g: so do you have uh , you you mean you have files which are hours of hours long ? or ? grad c: oh , well , no . i guess not . but professor g: yeah . i mean , usually you have in the training set you have similar conditions , i mean , file lengths are , i guess the same order or in the same size as for test data , or are n't they ? grad c: ok . but it 's ok . so if someone 's interacting with the system , though , uh , morgan uh , morgan said that you would tend to , um , chain utterances together um , r professor d: well , i think what i was s i thought what i was saying was that , um , at any given point you are gon na start off with what you had from before . grad c: oh . professor d: from and so if you 're splitting things up into utterances so , for instance , in a dialogue system , { comment } where you 're gon na be asking , uh , you know , th for some information , there 's some initial th something . and , you know , the first time out you you might have some general average . but you you d you do n't have very much information yet . but at after they 've given one utterance you 've got something . you can compute your mean cepstra from that , grad c: mm - hmm . professor d: and then can use it for the next thing that they say , uh , so that , you know , the performance should be better that second time . um , and i think the heuristics of exactly how people handle that and how they handle their training i 'm sure vary from place to place . but i think the ideally , it seems to me anyway , that you you would wan na do the same thing in training as you do in test . but that 's that 's just , uh , a prejudice . and i think anybody working on this with some particular task would experiment . grad c: right . i g i guess the question i had was , um , amount of data e u was the amount of data that you 'd give it to , um update this estimate . because say you if you have say five thousand utterances in your training set , um , and you you keep the mean from the last utterance , by the time it gets to the five thousandth utterance professor d: no , but those are all different people with different i mean , i in y so for instance , in in the in a telephone task , these are different phone calls . so you do n't wan na @ @ { comment } chain it together from a from a different phone call . grad c: ok , so so so they would g s professor d: so it 's within speaker , within phone call , professor g: yeah . professor d: if it 's a dialogue system , it 's within whatever this characteristic you 're trying to get rid of is expected to be consistent over , professor g: hmm . grad c: r and it professor d: right ? grad c: right . ok , so you 'd you and so in training you would start over at at every new phone call or at every new speaker . yeah , professor d: yeah . grad c: ok . professor d: yeah . now , you know , maybe you 'd use something from the others just because at the beginning of a call you do n't know anything , and so you might have some kind of general thing that 's your best guess to start with . but so , s i i you know , a lot of these things are proprietary so we 're doing a little bit of guesswork here . i mean , what do comp what do people do who really face these problems in the field ? well , they have companies and they do n't tell other people exactly what they do . grad c: r right . professor d: but but i mean , when you the the hints that you get from what they when they talk about it are that they do they all do something like this . grad c: right , ok . i see . bec - because i so this smartkom task first off , it 's this tv and movie information system . professor d: yeah , but you might have somebody who 's using it grad c: and yeah . professor d: and then later you might have somebody else who 's using it . grad c: yeah . right . right . i i see . professor d: and so you 'd wan na set some grad c: i was i was about to say . so if if you ask it `` what what movies are on tv tonight ? `` , professor d: yeah . yeah . grad c: if i look at my wristwatch when i say that it 's about two seconds . the way i currently have the mean subtraction , um , set up , the the analysis window is two seconds . professor d: yeah . grad c: so what you just said , about what do you start with , raises a question of what do i start with then ? professor d: mm - hmm . grad c: i guess it because professor d: well , w ok , so in that situation , though , th maybe what 's a little different there , is i think you 're talking about there 's only one it it it also depends we 're getting a little off track here . grad c: oh , right . professor d: r but but but uh , there 's been some discussion about whether the work we 're doing in that project is gon na be for the kiosk or for the mobile or for both . and i think for this kind of discussion it matters . if it 's in the kiosk , then the physical situation is the same . it 's gon na you know , the exact interaction of the microphone 's gon na differ depending on the person and so forth . but at least the basic acoustics are gon na be the same . so f if it 's really in one kiosk , then i think that you could just chain together and and you know , as much as much speech as possible to because what you 're really trying to get at is the is the reverberation characteristic . grad c: yeah . professor d: but in in the case of the mobile , uh , { comment } presumably the acoustic 's changing all over the place . grad c: right . professor d: and in that case you probably do n't wan na have it be endless because you wan na have some sort of it 's it 's not a question of how long do you think it 's you can get an approximation to a stationary something , given that it 's not really stationary . grad c: right . right . professor d: so . professor g: hmm . grad c: and i i g i guess i s just started thinking of another question , which is , for for the very first frame , w what what do i do if i 'm if i take if i use that frame to calculate the mean , then i 'm just gon na get n nothing . professor d: mm - hmm . grad c: um , professor d: right . grad c: so i should probably have some kind of default mean for the first f couple of frames ? professor d: yeah . yeah . grad c: ok . professor d: yeah . or subtract nothing . i mean , it 's grad c: or subtract nothing . and and that 's that 's i guess that 's something that 's p people have figured out how to deal with in cepstral mean subtraction as well ? professor d: yeah , yeah . yeah , people do something . they they , uh , they have some , um , uh , in in cepstral mean subtraction , for short - term window analysis windows , as is usually done , you 're trying to get rid of some very general characteristic . and so , uh , if you have any other information about what a general kind of characteristic would be , then you you can do it there . phd f: you can also you can also reflect the data . so you take , uh you know , i 'm not sure how many frames you need . grad c: uh - huh . phd f: but you take that many from the front and flip it around to a as the negative value . professor d: yeah , that 's yeah . phd f: so you can always professor d: the other thing is that and and i i remember b b n doing this , is that if you have a multi - pass system , um , if the first pass ta it takes most of the computation , the second and the third pass could be very , very quick , grad c: mmm . professor d: just looking at a relatively small n small , uh , space of hypotheses . grad c: uh - huh . professor d: then you can do your first pass without any subtraction at all . grad c: oh . professor d: and then your second pass , uh , uh , eliminates those most of those hypotheses by , uh by having an improved improved version o of the analysis . grad c: ok . ok . professor d: so . grad c: ok . so that was all i had , for now . professor d: yeah . phd f: do you wan na go , barry ? grad a: yeah , ok . um , so for the past , uh , week an or two , i 've been just writing my , uh , formal thesis proposal . um , so i 'm taking this qualifier exam that 's coming up in two weeks . and i i finish writing a proposal and submit it to the committee . um . and uh , should i should i explain , uh , more about what what i 'm proposing to do , and s and stuff ? professor d: yes , briefly . phd f: yeah briefly . grad a: ok . um , so briefly , i 'm proposing to do a n a new p approach to speech recognition using um , a combination of , uh , multi - band ideas and ideas , um , { comment } about the uh , acoustic phonec phonetic approach to speech recognition . um , so i will be using these graphical models that um , that implement the multi - band approach to recognize a set of intermediate categories that might involve , uh , things like phonetic features or other other f feature things that are more closely related to the acoustic signal itself . um , and the hope in all of this is that by going multi - band and by going into these , um intermediate classifications , that we can get a system that 's more robust to to unseen noises , and situations like that . um , and so , some of the research issues involved in this are , um , { comment } one , what kind of intermediate categories do we need to classify ? um , another one is um , what what other types of structures in these multi - band graphical models should we consider in order to um , combine evidence from the sub - bands ? and , uh , the third one is how do we how do we merge all the , uh , information from the individual uh , multi - band classifiers to come up with word word recognition or or phone recognition things . um , so basically that 's that 's what i 've been doing . and , phd f: so you 've got two weeks , huh ? grad a: i got two weeks to brush up on d um , presentation stuff and , um , professor d: oh , i thought you were finishing your thesis in two weeks . grad a: but . oh , that too . professor d: yeah . grad a: yeah . phd f: are you gon na do any dry runs for your thing , grad a: yes . phd f: or are you just gon na grad a: yes . i , um i 'm i 'm gon na do some . would you be interested ? to help out ? phd f: sure . grad a: ok . phd f: sure . grad a: thanks . yeah . phd f: is that it ? grad a: that 's it . phd f: hhh . ok . uh . hhh . let 's see . so we 've got forty minutes left , and it seems like there 's a lot of material . an - any suggestions about where we where we should go next ? phd b: mmm , @ @ . phd f: uh . do you wan na go , sunil ? maybe we 'll just start with you . phd b: yeah . but i actually stuck most of this in our m last meeting with guenter . um , but i 'll just um , so the last week , uh , i showed some results with only speechdat - car which was like some fifty - six percent . and , uh , i did n't h i mean , i i found that the results i mean , i was n't getting that r results on the ti - digit . so i was like looking into `` why , what is wrong with the ti - digits ? `` . why why i was not getting it . and i found that , the noise estimation is a reason for the ti - digits to perform worse than the baseline . so , uh , i actually , picked th i mean , the first thing i did was i just scaled the noise estimate by a factor which is less than one to see if that because i found there are a lot of zeros in the spectrogram for the ti - digits when i used this approach . so the first thing i did was i just scaled the noise estimate . and i found so the the results that i 've shown here are the complete results using the new well , the n the new technique is nothing but the noise estimate scaled by a factor of point five . so it 's just an ad - hoc i mean , some intermediate result , because it 's not optimized for anything . so the results the trend the only trend i could see from those results was like the the p the current noise estimation or the , uh , noise composition scheme is working good for like the car noise type of thing . because i 've the only only p very good result in the ti - digits is the noise car noise condition for their test - a , which is like the best i could see that uh , for any non - stationary noise like `` babble `` or `` subway `` or any `` street `` , some `` restaurant `` noise , it 's like it 's not performing w very well . so , the so that that 's the first thing i c uh , i could make out from this stuff . and professor g: yeah , i think what is important to see is that there is a big difference between the training modes . phd b: yeah . professor g: uh - huh . if you have clean training , you get also a fifty percent improvement . phd b: yeah . professor g: but if you have muddy condition training you get only twenty percent . phd b: yeah . yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: uh , and in that twenty percent @ @ it 's very inconsistent across different noise conditions . professor g: mm - hmm . mmm . phd b: so i have like a forty - five percent for `` car noise `` and then there 's a minus five percent for the `` babble `` , professor g: mmm . phd b: and there 's this thirty - three for the `` station `` . and so it 's it 's not it 's not actually very consistent across . so . the only correlation between the speechdat - car and this performance is the c stationarity of the noise that is there in these conditions and the speechdat - car . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: and , uh so so the overall result is like in the last page , which is like forty - seven , which is still very imbalanced because there are like fifty - six percent on the speechdat - car and thirty - five percent on the ti - digits . and uh , ps the fifty - six percent is like comparable to what the french telecom gets , but the thirty - five percent is way off . professor d: i 'm sort of confused but this i 'm looking on the second page , phd b: oh , yep . professor d: and it says `` fifty percent `` looking in the lower right - hand corner , `` fifty percent relative performance `` . professor g: for the clean training . professor d: is that professor g: u and if you if you look professor d: is that fifty percent improvement ? phd b: yeah . for that 's for the clean training and the noisy testing for the ti - digits . professor g: yeah . professor d: so it 's improvement over the baseline mel cepstrum ? phd b: yeah . yeah . professor d: but the baseline mel cepstrum under those training does n't do as well i i 'm i 'm trying to understand why it 's it 's eighty percent that 's an accuracy number , i guess , phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah . professor d: right ? so that 's not as good as the one up above . phd b: no . professor d: but the fifty is better than the one up above , phd b: yeah . professor d: so i 'm confused . phd b: uh , actually the noise compensation whatever , uh , we are put in it works very well for the high mismatch condition . i mean , it 's consistent in the speechdat - car and in the clean training also it gives it but this fifty percent is is that the the high mismatch performance equivalent to the high mismatch performance in the speech . phd f: so n s so since the high mismatch performance is much worse to begin with , it 's easier to get a better relative improvement . phd b: yeah . yeah . i do . yeah , yeah . so by putting this noise phd e: yeah . yeah , if we look at the figures on the right , we see that the reference system is very bad . professor d: oh . phd b: yeah . the reference drops like a very fast professor d: oh , oh , oh , oh , oh , oh . phd e: like for clean clean training condition . professor d: i see . phd b: yeah . professor d: i see . phd e: nnn . professor d: this is this is ti digits { comment } we 're looking at ? phd b: yeah . yeah . oh professor d: this whole page is ti - digits phd b: oh . yeah . professor d: or this is ? phd b: it 's not written anywhere . yeah , it 's ti - digits . the first r spreadsheet is ti - digits . professor d: mmm . how does clean training do for the , uh , `` car `` professor g: hmm . phd b: the `` car `` ? professor d: stuff ? phd b: oh . still it still , uh that that 's still consistent . i mean , i get the best performance in the case of `` car `` , which is the third column in the a condition . professor d: no . i mean , this is added noise . i mean , this is ti - digits . i 'm sorry . i meant in in the in the , uh , multi - language , uh , uh , finnish and phd b: uh professor g: this is next next page . phd b: that 's the next next spreadsheet , is professor g: hmm . phd b: so that is the performance for italian , finnish and spanish . professor d: `` training condition `` oh , right . so `` clean `` corresponds to `` high mismatch `` . phd b: yeah . professor d: and `` increase `` , that 's increase e professor g: improvement . phd b: improvement . that 's `` percentage increase `` is the percentage improvement over the baseline . professor g: yeah . it 's it 's a phd b: so that 's professor d: which means decrease in word error rate ? phd b: yeah . professor d: ok , so `` percentage increase `` means decrease ? phd b: yeah , yeah . professor d: ok . professor g: yeah . the the w there was a very long discussion about this on on the on the , uh , amsterdam meeting . professor d: yeah . professor g: how to how to calculate it then . phd b: yeah . there 's there 's a professor g: i i i guess you are using finally this the scheme which they phd b: which is there in the spreadsheet . professor g: ok . phd b: i 'm not changing anything in there . professor g: mmm . professor d: alright . phd b: so . uh , yeah . so all the hi h m numbers are w very good , in the sense , they are better than what the french telecom gets . so . but the the only number that 's still i mean , which stephane also got in his result was that medium mismatch of the finnish , which is very which is a very strange situation where we used the we changed the proto for initializing the hmm i mean , this this is basically because it gets stuck in some local minimum in the training . that seventy - five point seven nine in the finnish mismatch which is that the eleven point nine six what we see . professor d: uh - huh . professor g: mmm . phd b: yeah . professor d: so we have to jiggle it somehow ? phd b: yeah so we start with that different proto and it becomes eighty - eight , which is like some fifty percent improvement . professor d: s wait a minute . start with a different what ? phd b: different prototype , which is like a different initialization for the , uh , s transition probabilities . it 's just that right now , the initialization is to stay more in the current state , which is point four point six , right ? yeah . phd e: yeah . phd b: and if it changes to point five point five , which is equal @ @ for transition and self loop where it becomes eighty - eight percent . phd f: well , but that involves mucking with the back - end , phd b: yeah . we ca n't do it . phd f: which is not allowed . phd b: yeah . phd e: mmm . phd f: yeah . phd b: so . professor g: i mean , it uh , like , i i i it is well known , this this medium match condition of the finnish data has some strange effects . phd b: very s phd e: yeah . phd b: it has a very few at uh , actually , c uh , tran i mean , words also . professor g: i mean , that is yeah , phd b: it 's a very , very small set , actually . professor g: that too . yeah . uh - huh . phd b: so there is professor g: there is a l a there is a lot of uh , there are a lot of utterances with music in with music in the background . phd b: yeah . yeah , yeah , yeah . yeah . professor g: mmm . professor d: uh - huh . phd b: yeah . it has some music also . i mean , very horrible music like like i know . professor d: so maybe for that one you need a much smarter vad ? mmm , phd b: uh professor d: if it 's music . phd b: so , that that 's the that 's about the results . and , uh , the summary is like ok . so there are the other thing what i tried was , which i explained in the last meeting , is using the channel zero for , uh , for both dropping and estimating the noise . and that 's like just to f n get a feel of how good it is . i guess the fifty - six percent improvement in the speechdat - car becomes like sixty - seven percent . like ten percent better . but that 's that 's not a that 's a cheating experiment . so . that 's just so , m w professor g: but the but the , uh , forty - seven point nine percent which you have now , that 's already a remarkable improvement in comparison to the first proposal . phd b: yeah . so we had forty - four percent in the first proposal . professor g: ok . phd b: yeah . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: we have f a big im so the major improvement that we got was in all the high mismatch cases , because all those numbers were in sixties and seventies because we never had any noise compensations . professor g: mmm . phd b: so that 's where the biggest improvement came up . not much in the well match and the medium match and ti - digits also right now . so this is still at three or four percent improvement over the first proposal . professor g: mmm . mmm . professor d: yeah , so that 's good . phd b: yeah . so . professor d: then if we can improve the noise estimation , then it should get better . professor g: yeah , i i started thinking about also i mean yeah , uh , i discovered the same problem when i started working on uh , on this aurora task almost two years ago , that you have the problem with this mulit a at the beginning we had only this multi condition training of the ti - digits . phd b: yeah . professor g: and , uh , i i found the same problem . just taking um , what we were used to u use , i mean , uh , some type of spectral subtraction , { comment } y you get even worse results than the basis phd b: yeah . yeah , professor g: and uh phd b: yeah . professor g: i i tried to find an explanation for it , professor d: mmm . professor g: so phd b: so . yes . stephane also has the same experience of using the spectral subtraction right ? professor g: mmm . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . so here here i mean , i found that it 's if i changed the noise estimate i could get an improvement . phd e: yeah . phd b: so that 's so it 's something which i can actually pursue , is the noise estimate . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: and professor g: yeah , i think what you do is in when when you have the the this multi - condition training mode , um then you have then you can train models for the speech , for the words , as well as for the pauses where you really have all information about the noise available . phd b: yeah . professor g: and it was surprising at the beginning it was not surprising to me that you get really the best results on doing it this way , i mean , in comparison to any type of training on clean data and any type of processing . but it was so , u u it it seems to be the best what wh wh what what we can do in this moment is multi - condition training . and every when we now start introducing some some noise reduction technique we we introduce also somehow artificial distortions . phd b: yeah . professor g: and these artificial distortions uh , i have the feeling that they are the reason why why we have the problems in this multi - condition training . that means the h m ms we trained , they are they are based on gaussians , phd b: yeah . professor g: and on modeling gaussians . and if you can i move a little bit with this ? yeah . and if we introduce now this this u spectral subtraction , or wiener filtering stuff so , usually what you have is maybe , um i 'm i 'm showing now an envelope um maybe you 'll f for this time . so usually you have maybe in clean condition you have something which looks like this . and if it is noisy it is somewhere here . and then you try to subtract it or wiener filter or whatever . and what you get is you have always these problems , that you have this these these these zeros in there . phd b: yeah . professor g: and you have to do something if you get these negative values . i mean , this is your noise estimate and you somehow subtract it or do whatever . uh , and then you have and then i think what you do is you introduce some some artificial distribution in this uh in in the models . i mean , i you you train it also this way but , i somehow there is u u there is no longer a a gaussian distribution . it is somehow a strange distribution which we introduce with these artificial distortions . and and i was thinking that that might be the reason why you get these problems in the especially in the multi - condition training mode . phd b: yeah , yeah . professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: th - that 's true . yeah the c the models are not complex enough to absorb that additional variability that you 're introducing . professor g: s phd f: thanks adam . professor g: yeah . yes . phd b: well , that 's yeah . so phd e: i also have the feeling that um , the reason ye why it does n't work is yeah , that the models are much are t um , not complex enough . because i actually i als always had a good experience with spectral subtraction , just a straight spectral subtraction algorithm when i was using neural networks , big neural networks , which maybe are more able to model strange distributions and professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: but yeah . then i tried the same exactly the same spectral subtraction algorithm on these aurora tasks and it simply does n't work . it 's even it , uh , hurts even . professor g: hmm . phd e: so . professor d: we probably should at some point here try the tandem the the the system - two kind of stuff with this , with the spectral subtraction for that reason . professor g: hmm . professor d: cuz again , it should do a transformation to a domain where it maybe looks more gaussian . professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: hmm . yeah , y i i was whe w w just yesterday when i was thinking about it um w what what we could try to do , or do about it i mean , if you if you get at this in this situation that you get this this negative values and you simply set it to zero or to a constant or whatever if we if we would use there a somehow , um a random generator which which has a certain distribution , u not a certain { comment } yeah , a special distribution we should see we we have to think about it . phd b: it 's professor g: and that we , so , introduce again some natural behavior in this trajectory . professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: mm - hmm . very different from speech . still , i mean , it should n't confuse the professor g: yeah , i mean , similar to what what you see really u in in the real um noisy situation . phd b: ok . mm - hmm . professor g: or i in the clean situation . but but somehow a a natural distribution . professor d: but is n't that s again sort of the idea of the additive thing , if it as as we had in the j stuff ? i mean , basically if if you have random data , um , in in the time domain , then when you look at the s spectrum it 's gon na be pretty flat . and and , professor g: mm - hmm . professor d: uh , so just add something everywhere rather than just in those places . it 's just a constant , right ? phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah . i think e yeah . it 's it 's just especially in these segments , i mean , you introduce , um , very artificial behavior . professor d: yeah . yeah . professor g: and professor d: well , see if you add something everywhere , it has almost no effect up up up on on top . and it and it and it has significant effect down there . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: that was , sort of the idea . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: hmm . yeah the that 's true . that those those regions are the cause for this @ @ those negative values or whatever you get . professor g: i mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . so . professor g: i mean , we we could trit uh , we we could think how w what what we could try . phd b: yeah . yeah , yeah . professor g: i mean , it it was just an idea . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: i mean , we professor d: i think when it 's noisy people should just speak up . professor g: to mmm . phd b: so phd e: if we look at the france telecom proposal , they use some kind of noise addition . they have a random number generator , right ? and they add noise on the trajectory of , uh , the log energy only , right ? professor d: oh , they do ! phd b: yep . professor d: oh . phd b: c - z c - zero and log energy also , yeah . phd e: yeah . um , but i do n't know how much effect it this have , but they do that . phd b: now ? phd e: yeah . phd b: oh . professor g: uh - huh . professor d: hmm . professor g: so it it it it it is l somehow similar to what phd e: i think because they have th log energy , yeah , and then just generate random number . they have some kind of mean and variance , and they add this number to to the log energy simply . um phd b: yeah the the log energy , the after the clean cleaning up . professor d: to the l phd b: so they add a random random noise to it . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: to the just the energy , or to the mel uh , to the mel filter ? phd b: no . on - only to the log energy . phd e: only yeah . professor d: oh . professor g: uh - huh . professor d: so it cuz i mean , i think this is most interesting for the mel filters . right ? professor g: uh - huh . professor d: or or f f one or the other . professor g: but but they do not apply filtering of the log energy or what phd b: like , uh i mean professor g: like like a spectral subtraction or phd b: no their filter is not m domain . s so they did filter their time signal professor g: yeah . i kn phd b: and then what @ @ u professor g: and then they calculate from this , the log energy phd b: yeah then after that it is s almost the same as the baseline prop system . professor g: or ? mm - hmm . phd b: and then the final log energy that they that they get , that to the to that they add some random noise . professor d: yeah , but again , that 's just log energy as opposed to filter bank energy . phd b: yeah . so it 's not the mel . professor g: mmm . phd b: you know , it 's not the mel filter bank output . professor d: yeah . phd b: these are log energy computed from the time s domain signal , professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: not from the mel filter banks . so did professor d: hmm . phd e: maybe it 's just a way to decrease the importance of this particular parameter in the in the world feature vector cu if you add noise to one of the parameters , you widen the distributions professor d: hmm . phd b: becomes flat . the variance , yeah , reduces , phd e: and phd b: so . hmm , yeah . phd e: eee - sss - uh . professor d: so it could reduce the dependence on the amplitude and so on . yeah . phd e: yeah . phd b: yeah . although professor d: maybe . phd e: mm - hmm . phd f: so is , uh is that about it ? phd b: uh , so the phd f: or ? phd b: ok . so the other thing is the i 'm just looking at a little bit on the delay issue where the delay of the system is like a hundred and eighty millisecond . so i just just tried another sk system i mean , another filter which i 've like shown at the end . which is very similar to the existing uh , filter . only uh , only thing is that the phase is is like a totally nonlinear phase because it 's a it 's not a symmetric filter anymore . phd f: this is for the lda ? phd b: yeah so so this this is like so this makes the delay like zero for lda because it 's completely causal . phd f: oh . phd b: so so i got actually just the results for the italian for that and that 's like so the fifty - one point o nine has become forty - eight point o six , which is like three percent relative degradation . so i have like the fifty - one point o nine phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: and so . i do n't know it f fares for the other conditions . so it 's just like it 's like a three percent relative degradation , with the professor g: but but is there is there a problem with the one hundred eighty milliseconds ? or ? phd b: u uh , may professor d: th - well , this is professor g: yeah , i mean , i talked to to uh , i ta uh , i talked , uh , about it with with hynek . i mean , there is professor d: this is so so , basically our our position is that , um , we should n't be unduly constraining the latency at this point because we 're all still experimenting with trying to make the performance better in the presence of noise . uh , there is a minority in that group who is a arguing who are arguing for um , uh , having a further constraining of the latency . so we 're s just continuing to keep aware of what the trade - offs are and , you know , what what do we gain from having longer or shorter latencies ? professor g: mmm . professor d: but since we always seem to at least get something out of longer latencies not being so constrained , we 're tending to go with that if we 're not told we ca n't do it . phd f: what where was the , um the smallest latency of all the systems last time ? professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: the french telecom . professor d: well , france telecom was was was very short latency professor g: it 's professor d: and they had a very good result . phd f: what what was it ? professor d: it was thirty - five . professor g: it was in the order of thirty milliseconds professor d: yeah . professor g: or phd f: thirteen ? professor d: th th professor g: thirty . phd f: thirty . phd b: thirty - four . professor d: yeah . professor g: yeah . professor d: yeah , so it 's possible to get very short latency . professor g: professor d: but , again , we 're the the approaches that we 're using are ones that take advantage of phd f: yeah . i was just curious about where we are compared to , you know , the shortest that people have done . professor g: but but i think this thirty milliseconds they they did it did not include the the delta calculation . phd b: yeah . yeah . yeah . professor g: and this is included now , phd b: yeah . yeah . professor g: you know ? phd b: so if they include the delta , it will be an additional forty millisecond . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: yeah . professor g: yeah . i i do n't remember the i th they were not using the htk delta ? phd b: no , they 're using a nine - point window , which is like a four on either side , professor g: nine - point . phd b: which is like professor g: ok . phd b: f so professor g: mmm . phd b: they did n't include that . professor d: yeah . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: so phd e: where does the comprish compression in decoding delay comes from ? phd f: ok . phd e: phd b: that 's the way the the the frames are packed , like you have to wait for one more frame to pack . because it 's the crc is computed for two frames always . professor d: well , that the they would need that forty milliseconds also . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: no . they actually changed the compression scheme altogether . professor d: right ? phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: so they have their own compression and decoding scheme and they i do n't know what they have . professor d: oh . phd b: but they have coded zero delay for that . because they ch i know they changed it , their compression . they have their own crc , their their own error correction mechanism . professor d: oh . phd b: so they do n't have to wait more than one more frame to know whether the current frame is in error . professor d: oh , ok . phd b: so they changed the whole thing so that there 's no delay for that compression and part also . professor d: hmm . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: even you have reported actually zero delay for the compression . i thought maybe you also have some different professor g: mmm . mmm . no , i think i i used this scheme as it was before . phd b: ok . ah . mm - hmm . phd f: ok , we 've got twenty minutes so we should probably try to move along . uh , did you wan na go next , stephane ? phd e: i can go next . yeah . mmm . professor d: oh . wait a minute . it 's phd e: it 's yeah , we have to take professor d: wait a minute . i think i 'm confused . phd e: well ok . professor d: alright . phd e: so you have w w one sheet ? this one is you do n't need it , alright . professor d: uh phd e: so you have to take the whole the five . there should be five sheets . professor d: ok , phd e: professor d: i have four now because i left one with dave because i thought i was dropping one off and passing the others on . so , no , we 're not . ok . phd b: thanks . phd h: please give me one . professor d: ah , we need one more over here . phd e: ok , maybe there 's not enough for everybody . phd f: i can share with barry . grad a: yeah . professor d: oh , ok . phd e: but can we look at this ? professor g: ok . grad c: yeah . phd e: so , yeah , there are two figures showing actually the , mmm , um , performance of the current vad . so it 's a n neural network based on plp parameters , uh , which estimate silence probabilities , and then i just put a median filtering on this to smooth the probabilities , right ? um i did n't use the the scheme that 's currently in the proposal because i do n't want to in the proposal well , in in the system we want to add like speech frame before every word and a little bit of of , uh , s a couple of frames after also . uh , but to estimate the performance of the vad , we do n't want to do that , because it would artificially increase the um the false alarm rate of speech detection . right ? um , so , there is u normally a figure for the finnish and one for italian . and maybe someone has two for the italian because i 'm missing one figure here . phd b: no . phd e: well well , whatever . uh yeah , so one surprising thing that we can notice first is that apparently the speech miss rate is uh , higher than the false alarm rate . so . it means professor g: so so what is the lower curve and the upper curve ? phd e: mm - hmm . yeah , there are two curves . one curve 's for the close - talking microphone , which is the lower curve . professor g: yeah . phd e: and the other one is for the distant microphone professor g: ah , ok . phd e: which has more noise so , it 's logical that it performs worse . so as i was saying , the miss rate is quite important uh , which means that we tend to label speech as as a silence . and , uh , i did n't analyze further yet , but i think it 's it may be due to the fricative sounds which may be in noisy condition maybe label labelled as silence . and it may also be due to the alignment because well , the reference alignment . because right now i just use an alignment obtained from from a system trained on channel zero . and i checked it a little bit but there might be alignment errors . um , yeah , e like the fact that the the models tend to align their first state on silence and their last state o on silence also . so the reference reference alignment would label as speech some silence frame before speech and after speech . this is something that we already noticed before when mmm , so this cus this could also explain , uh , the high miss rate maybe . uh professor g: and and this this curves are the average over the whole database , so . phd e: yeah . right . professor g: mmm . phd e: um yeah , and the different points of the curves are for five uh , thresholds on the probability { comment } uh from point three to point seven . phd b: so that threshold phd e: mm - hmm . yeah . phd b: ok . s ok so d the detection threshold is very phd e: so the v phd b: yeah , yeah . phd e: the vad ? yeah . there first , a threshold on the probability { comment } @ @ { comment } that puts all the values to zero or one . phd b: mmm . phd e: and then the median filtering . phd b: yeah , so the median filtering is fixed . you just change the threshold ? phd e: yeah . it 's fixed , phd b: yeah . phd e: yeah . mm - hmm . so , going from channel zero to channel one , uh , almost double the error rate . um , yeah . well , so it 's a reference performance that we can you know , if we want to to work on the vad , { comment } we can work on this basis phd h: phd b: mm - hmm . phd e: and phd b: ok . grad a: is this is this vad a mlp ? phd e: yeah . grad a: ok . how how big is it ? phd e: it 's a very big one . i do n't remember . phd b: so three three hundred and fifty inputs , phd e: m phd b: uh , six thousand hidden nodes and two outputs . t t grad a: ok . phd b: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: middle - sized one . phd b: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: phd e: yeah . uh , ppp . i do n't know , you have questions about that , or suggestions ? phd b: mmm . s so phd e: it seems the performance seems worse in finnish , which phd b: well , it 's not trained on finnish . phd e: uh phd h: it 's worse . phd e: it 's not trained on finnish , yeah . professor d: what 's it trained on ? phd b: i mean , the mlp 's not trained on finnish . professor d: right , what 's it trained on ? phd b: oh oh . sorry . uh , it 's italian ti - digits . professor d: yeah . oh , it 's trained on italian ? phd b: yeah . professor d: yeah , ok . phd e: mm - hmm . and phd b: that 's right . professor d: ok . phd e: and also there are like funny noises on finnish more than on italian . i mean , like music professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . yeah , the yeah , it 's true . phd e: and um so , yeah , we were looking at this . but for most of the noises , noises are um , i do n't know if we want to talk about that . but , well , the the `` car `` noises are below like five hundred hertz . and we were looking at the `` music `` utterances and in this case the noise is more about two thousand hertz . phd b: yeah . phd e: well , the music energy 's very low apparently . uh , uh , from zero to two two thousand hertz . so maybe just looking at this frequency range for from five hundred to two thousand would improve somewhat the vad phd b: mmm . phd e: and phd b: yeah . phd e: mmm phd b: so there are like some some s some parameters you wanted to use or something ? phd e: yeah , but yes . phd b: or yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . uh , the next , um oh , it 's there . professor g: so is the is the is the training is the training based on these labels files which you take as reference here ? phd e: yeah . professor g: wh - when you train the neural net y y you phd e: no . it 's not . it 's it was trained on some alignment obtained um , uh for the italian data , i think we trained the neural network on with embedded training . so re - estimation of the alignment using the neural network , i guess . that 's right ? phd b: yeah . we actually trained , uh , the on the italian training part . phd e: yeah . phd b: we we had another system with u phd e: so it was a f f a phonetic classification system for the italian aurora data . phd b: yeah . it must be somewhere . yeah . phd e: for the aurora data that it was trained on , it was different . like , for ti - digits you used a a previous system that you had , i guess . phd b: what no it yeah , yeah . that 's true . phd e: so the alignments from the different database that are used for training came from different system . phd b: syste yeah . phd e: then we put them tog together . well , you put them together and trained the vad on them . phd b: yeah . phd e: mmm . phd b: yeah . professor g: hmm . phd e: uh , but did you use channel did you align channel one also ? or phd b: i just took their entire italian training part . phd e: yeah . phd b: so it was both channel zero plus channel one . phd e: so di yeah . so the alignments might be wrong then on channel one , right ? phd b: on one . possible . phd e: so we might , phd b: we can do a realignment . phd e: yeah , phd b: that 's true . phd e: at least want to retrain on these alignments , which should be better because they come from close - talking microphone . professor g: yeah , the that was my idea . i mean , if if it ha if it is not the same labeling which is taking the spaces . phd b: yeah . phd e: ok . phd b: yeah , possible . phd e: yeah . professor g: mmm . phd b: i mean , it so the system phd e: yeah . phd b: so the vad was trained on maybe different set of labels for channel zero and channel one phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: and professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: was the alignments were w were different for s certainly different because they were independently trained . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: we did n't copy the channel zero alignments to channel one . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . phd e: yeah . phd b: but for the new alignments what you generated , you just copied the channel zero to channel one , right ? yeah . phd e: right . yeah . um . and eh , hhh actually when we look at at the vad , for some utterances it 's almost perfect , i mean , it just dropped one frame , the first frame of speech or so there are some utterances where it 's almost one hundred percent vad performance . professor g: hmm . phd e: uh , but yeah . mmm yep . so the next thing is um , i have the spreadsheet for three different system . but for this you only have to look right now on the speechdat - car performance uh , because i did n't test so i did n't test the spectral subtraction on ti - digits yet . uh , so you have three she sheets . one is the um proposal - one system . actually , it 's not exe exactly proposal - one . it 's the system that sunil just described . um , but with uh , wiener filtering from um , france telecom included . um , so this gives like fifty - seven point seven percent , uh , s uh , error rate reduction on the speechdat - car data . mmm , and then i have two sheets where it 's for a system where uh , so it 's again the same system . but in this case we have spectral subtraction with a maximum overestimation factor of two point five . uh , there is smoothing of the gain trajectory with some kind of uh , low - pass filter , which has forty milliseconds latency . and then , after subtraction um , i add a constant to the energies and i have two cases d where the first case is where the constant is twenty - five db below the mean speech energy and the other is thirty db below . um , and for these s two system we have like fifty - five point , uh , five - percent improvement , and fifty - eight point one . so again , it 's around fifty - six , fifty - seven . uh professor d: cuz i notice the ti - digits number is exactly the same for these last two ? phd e: yeah , because i did n't for the france telecom uh , spectral subtraction included in the our system , the ti - digits number are the right one , but not for the other system because i did n't test it yet this system , including with spectral subtraction on the ti - digits data . i just tested it on speechdat - car . professor d: ah ! so so that means the only thing professor g: mm - hmm . so so so these numbers are simply phd e: this , we have to yeah . phd b: but this number . professor d: yeah . professor g: yeah . professor d: so you so you just should look at that fifty - eight perc point o nine percent and so on . phd e: yes . professor g: ok . phd e: right . right . professor d: ok . good . phd e: mm - hmm . um , yeah . phd b: so this so by uh , by by reducing the noise a a decent threshold like minus thirty db , it 's like uh , you are like r r reducing the floor of the noisy regions , right ? professor g: s phd e: yeah . yeah . the floor is lower . um , phd b: uh - huh . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: i 'm sorry . so when you say minus twenty - five or minus thirty db , with respect to what ? phd e: to the average um , speech energy which is estimated on the world database . professor d: ok , so basically you 're creating a signal - to - noise ratio of twenty - five or thirty db ? phd e: yeah . professor d: uh r phd e: but it 's not professor g: i i i think what you do is this . phd e: it it 's professor g: i when when you have this , after you subtracted it , i mean , then you get something w w with this , uh , where you set the values to zero and then you simply add an additive constant again . phd e: yeah . professor g: so you shift it somehow . this this whole curve is shifted again . professor d: but did you do that before the thresholding to zero , phd e: right . it 's professor d: or ? phd e: but , it 's after the thresholding . professor g: professor d: oh , phd e: so , professor d: so you 'd really want to do it before , phd e: maybe professor d: right ? phd e: maybe we might do it before , professor d: yeah , because then the then you would have less of that phenomenon . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor d: i think . phd e: uh professor g: e hhh . phd e: yeah . professor d: c phd e: but still , when you do this and you take the log after that , it it reduce the the variance . professor d: yeah , it it right . phd e: but mmm , professor d: yeah , that will reduce the variance . that 'll help . but maybe if you does do it before you get less of these funny - looking things he 's drawing . professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: um , phd b: so before it 's like adding this , col to the to the o exi original professor g: but but phd e: we would professor d: right at the point where you 've done the subtraction . phd b: ok . professor d: um , essentially you 're adding a constant into everything . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: but the way stephane did it , it is exactly the way i have implemented in the phone , so . professor d: oh , yeah , better do it different , then . yeah . phd e: um . professor d: just you you just ta you just set it for a particular signal - to - noise ratio that you want ? phd e: yeah . professor g: yeah i i made s similar investigations like stephane did here , just uh , adding this constant and and looking how dependent is it on the value of the constant professor d: yeah . yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: and then , must choose them somehow to give on average the best results for a certain range of the signal - to - noise ratios . professor d: uh - huh . phd e: yeah . mm - hmm . professor g: so phd e: oh , it 's clear . i should have gi given other results . also it 's clear when you do n't add noise , it 's much worse . like , around five percent worse i guess . professor d: uh - huh . phd e: and if you add too much noise it get worse also . and it seems that right now this this is c a constant that does not depend on { comment } on anything that you can learn from the utterance . it 's just a constant noise addition . um . and i i think w w professor d: i i 'm sorry . then then i 'm confused . phd e: i think professor d: i thought you 're saying it does n't depend on the utterance but i thought you were adding an amount that was twenty - five db down from the signal energy . phd e: yeah , so the way i did that , { comment } i i just measured the average speech energy of the all the italian data . professor d: oh ! phd e: and then i i have i used this as mean speech energy . mm - hmm . professor d: oh , it 's just a constant amount over all . phd e: yeah . and phd b: ok . phd e: wha what i observed is that for italian and spanish , { comment } when you go to thirty and twenty - five db , { comment } uh it it 's good . phd b: oh . phd e: it stays in this range , it 's , uh , the p u well , the performance of the this algorithm is quite good . but for finnish , you have a degradation already when you go from thirty - five to thirty and then from thirty to twenty - five . and i have the feeling that maybe it 's because just finnish has a mean energy that 's lower than than the other databases . and due to this the thresholds should be professor d: yeah . phd e: the the a the noise addition should be lower professor d: but in i mean , in the real thing you 're not gon na be able to measure what people are doing over half an hour or an hour , or anything , right ? phd e: and professor d: so you have to come up with this number from something else . phd e: yeah . so professor g: uh , but you are not doing it now language dependent ? or ? phd e: it 's not . it 's just something that 's fixed . professor g: no . it 's overall . phd e: yeah . professor g: ok . phd e: mm - hmm . um professor d: but what he is doing language dependent is measuring what that number i reference is that he comes down twenty - five down from . phd e: yeah , so i g no . it no . professor d: no ? phd e: because i did it i started working on italian . i obtained this average energy professor d: yeah . phd e: and then i used this one . phd b: for all the languages . ok . phd e: yeah . professor d: so it 's sort of arbitrary . phd b: yeah . professor d: i mean , so if y if yeah . phd e: yep . professor d: yeah . phd e: um , yeah , so the next thing is to use this as as maybe initialization professor d: uh - huh . phd e: and then use something on - line . professor d: something more adaptive , phd e: but and i expect improvement at least in finnish because eh the way professor d: yeah . ok . phd e: well , um , for italian and spanish it 's th this value works good but not necessarily for finnish . mmm . but unfortunately there is , like , this forty millisecond latency and , um yeah , so i would try to somewhat reduce this @ @ . i already know that if i completely remove this latency , so . um , { comment } it um there is a three percent hit on italian . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: d does latency professor g: i phd b: sorry . go ahead . professor g: yeah . your your smoothing was @ @ { comment } uh , over this s so to say , the the factor of the wiener . and then it 's , uh what was it ? this phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: this smoothing , it was over the subtraction factor , so to say . phd e: it 's a smoothing over the the gain of the subtraction algorithm . professor g: was this done mm - hmm . and and you are looking into the future , into the past . phd e: right . professor g: and smoothing . phd e: so , to smooth this thing . professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: yeah . um professor g: and did did you try simply to smooth um to smooth the the t to to smooth stronger the the envelope ? phd e: um , no , i did not . professor g: mmm . phd e: mmm . professor g: because i mean , it should have a similar effect if you phd e: yeah . professor g: i mean , you you have now several stages of smoothing , so to say . you start up . as far as i remember you you smooth somehow the envelope , you smooth somehow the noise estimate , phd e: mm - hmm . mmm professor g: and and later on you smooth also this subtraction factor . phd e: uh , no , it 's it 's just the gain that 's smoothed actually phd b: uh , actually i d i do all the smoothing . phd e: but it 's smoothed professor g: ah . oh , it w it was you . phd b: yeah , yeah . phd e: uh yeah . professor g: yeah . phd e: yeah . no , in this case it 's just the gain . professor g: yeah . phd e: and professor g: uh - huh . phd e: but the way it 's done is that um , for low gain , there is this non nonlinear smoothing actually . for low gains um , i use the smoothed sm uh , smoothed version but for high gain @ @ { comment } it 's i do n't smooth . professor g: uh . mm - hmm . i just , uh it experience shows you , if if you do the the best is to do the smoo smoothing as early as possible . phd e: uh - huh . professor g: so w when you start up . i mean , you start up with the with the somehow with the noisy envelope . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: and , best is to smooth this somehow . phd e: mm - hmm . uh , yeah , i could try this . um . professor g: and phd b: so , before estimating the snr , @ @ smooth the envelope . professor g: yeah . yeah . uh - huh . phd e: mm - hmm . but yeah . then i i would need to find a way to like smooth less also when there is high energy . cuz i noticed that it it helps a little bit to s like smooth more during low energy portions and less during speech , professor g: yes , y phd e: because if you smooth then y you kind of distort the speech . professor g: yeah . yeah . phd e: um . professor g: right . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah , i think when w you you could do it in this way that you say , if you if i 'm you have somehow a noise estimate , phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: and , if you say i 'm i 'm with my envelope i 'm close to this noise estimate , phd e: yeah . professor g: then you have a bad signal - to - noise ratio and then you you would like to have a stronger smoothing . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: so you could you could base it on your estimation of the signal - to - noise ratio on your actual phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mmm . phd b: yeah , or some silence probability from the vad if you have phd e: um , yeah , but i do n't trust the current vad . so . phd b: yeah , uh , so not not right now maybe . phd e: well , maybe . professor d: the vad later will be much better . phd e: maybe . professor d: yeah . so . i see . phd f: so is that it ? phd e: uh , fff { comment } i think that 's it . yeah . uh . professor g: s so to summarize the performance of these , speechdat - car results is similar than than yours so to say . phd b: yeah , so the fifty - eight is like the be some fifty - six point phd e: yeah . professor g: y you have you have fifty - six point four phd b: yeah , that 's true . professor g: and and and dependent on this additive constant , it is s better or or worse . phd e: yeah . phd b: slightly better . phd e: mm - hmm . phd h: phd b: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah . phd e: and , yeah , i i i the condition where it 's better than your approach , it 's it just because maybe it 's better on well matched and that the weight on well matched is is bigger , phd b: yeah . yeah , you you caught up . phd e: because phd b: yep , that 's true . phd e: if you do n't weigh differently the different condition , you can see that your well , the win the two - stage wiener filtering is maybe better or phd b: yeah . phd e: it 's better for high mismatch , right ? phd b: yeah , it 's better for high mismatch . phd e: mm - hmm . but a little bit worse for well matched . phd b: so over all it gets , yeah , worse for the well matched condition , so y phd e: uh - huh . phd f: so we need to combine these two . phd b: uh , that 's that 's the best thing , is like the french telecom system is optimized for the well matched condition . they c phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . so they know that the weighting is good for the well matched , and so there 's everywhere the well matched 's s s performance is very good for the french telecom . phd e: yeah . professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: t we are we may also have to do something similar @ @ . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: well , our tradition here has always been to focus on the mismatched . phd b: um the professor d: cuz it 's more interesting . professor g: mu - my mine was it too , i mean . professor d: yeah . professor g: before i started working on this aurora . professor d: yeah . professor g: so . professor d: yeah . yeah . ok . phd f: carmen ? do you , uh phd h: well , i only say that the this is , a summary of the of all the vts experiments and say that the result in the last { comment } um , for italian the last experiment for italian , are bad . i make a mistake when i write . up at d i copy one of the bad result . phd b: so you phd h: and there . you know , this . um , well . if we put everything , we improve a lot u the spectral use of the vts but the final result are not still mmm , good like the wiener filter for example . i do n't know . maybe it 's @ @ { comment } it 's possible to to have the same result . phd b: that 's somewhere phd h: i do n't know exactly . mmm . because i have , mmm , { comment } worse result in medium mismatch and high mismatch . phd b: you s you have a better r yeah . you have some results that are good for the high mismatch . phd h: and yeah . i someti are more or less similar but but are worse . and still i do n't have the result for ti - digits . the program is training . maybe for this weekend i will have result ti - digits and i can complete that s like this . well . professor d: uh . right . phd h: one thing that i { comment } note are not here in this result but are speak are spoken before with sunil i i improve my result using clean lda filter . phd b: mm - hmm . professor d: mm - hmm . phd h: if i use , eh , the lda filter that are training with the noisy speech , that hurts the res my results . professor d: so what are these numbers here ? are these with the clean or with the noisy ? phd h: this is with the clean . professor d: ok . phd h: with the noise i have worse result , that if i does n't use it . professor d: uh - huh . phd h: but m that may be because with this technique we are using really really clean speech . the speech the { comment } representation that go to the htk is really clean speech because it 's from the dictionary , the code book and maybe from that . i do n't know . phd e: mm - hmm . phd h: because i think that you did some experiments using the two the two lda filter , clean and noi and noise , phd e: it 's phd h: and it does n't matter too much . phd e: um , yeah , i did that but it does n't matter on speechdat - car , but , it matters , uh , a lot on ti - digits . phd b: using the clean filter . phd h: it 's better to use clean . phd e: yeah , d uh , it 's much better when you we used the clean derived lda filter . phd h: mm - hmm . maybe you can do d also this . phd b: yeah . phd h: to use clean speech . phd b: yeah , i 'll try . phd e: uh , but , yeah , sunil in in your result it 's phd b: i i 'll try the cle no , i i my result is with the noisy noisy lda . phd e: it 's with the noisy one . yeah . phd b: yeah . professor d: oh ! phd b: it 's with the noisy . yeah . it 's it 's not the clean lda . phd e: so professor d: um phd b: it 's in in the front sheet , i have like like the summary . yeah . professor d: and and your result { comment } is with the phd e: it 's with the clean lda . phd b: oh . this is your results are all with the clean lda result ? phd h: yeah , with the clean lda . phd b: ok . @ @ . phd e: yeah . phd b: phd e: and in your case it 's all all noisy , phd h: is that the reason ? phd b: all noisy , yeah . phd e: yeah . but phd h: and phd b: uh phd e: yeah . phd b: uh phd e: but i observe my case it 's in , uh , uh , at least on speechdat - car it does n't matter but ti - digits it 's like two or three percent absolute , uh , { comment } better . phd b: on ti - digits this matters . absolute . uh professor d: so you really might wan na try the clean i think . phd e: so if phd b: yeah , i i i will have to look at it . yeah , that 's true . professor d: yeah . yeah , that could be sizeable right there . phd h: and this is everything . professor g: yeah . professor d: ok . professor g: maybe you you are leaving in in about two weeks carmen . no ? phd h: yeah . professor g: yeah . so i mean , if if if i would put it put on the head of a project mana manager i i i i would say , uh , um i mean there is not so much time left now . professor d: be my guest . professor g: i mean , if um , what what i would do is i i i would pick @ @ { comment } the best consolation , which you think , and c create create all the results for the whole database that you get to the final number as as sunil did it phd h: and prepare at the s professor g: and um and maybe also to to write somehow a document where you describe your approach , and what you have done . phd h: yeah , i was thinking to do that next week . professor d: yeah . professor g: yeah . professor d: yeah , i 'll i 'll borrow the head back and and agree . yeah , phd h: yeah , i wi i i will do that next week . professor d: that 's that 's right . in fact , actually i g i guess the , uh the spanish government , uh , requires that anyway . they want some kind of report from everybody who 's in the program . phd h: mm - hmm . professor d: so . and of course i 'd we 'd we 'd like to see it too . so , phd h: ok . professor d: yeah . phd f: so , um , what 's do you think we , uh , should do the digits or skip it ? or what are what do you think ? professor d: uh , we have them now ? phd f: yeah , got them . professor d: uh , why don why do n't we do it ? phd f: ok . professor d: just { comment } just take a minute . phd h: i can send yet . phd f: would you pass those down ? professor d: oh ! sorry . phd f: ok , um , so i guess i 'll go ahead . um , professor d: seat ? phd e: dave ? is it the channel , or the mike ? i do n't remember . it 's the mike ? professor d: mike ? phd e: it 's not four . phd h: this is date and time . no . on the channel , channel . professor g: what is this ? phd b: t phd f: ok , if you could just leave , um , your mike on top of your , uh , digit form i can fill in any information that 's missing . professor g: ok . phd f: that 's uh i did n't get a chance to fill them out ahead of time . yeah , we 're gon na have to fix that . uh , let 's see , it starts with one here , and then goes around and ends with nine here . grad a: seven . so i i 'm eight , phd f: so he 's eight , grad a: you 're seven . phd f: you 're seven , grad a: yeah .

the team discussed sri experiments , multi-band approaches , latency , vad , and noise addition . the mean subtraction approach for sri that relied on a twelve second interval resulted in a zero point three percent improvement over the six second model , not necessarily significant . the team thought that training the model on different speeds of speech would be helpful to add to this progress . grad a introduced the team to her formal proposal for the qualifier exam . the work focused on intermediate classifiers and multi-band graphical models for speech recognition . the team then discussed noise removal as well the model phd b was working on did not do well in non-stationary noise environments . in general , however , the model had improved . the vad was labeling speech as silence segments , which could be attributed to alignment issues . the team thought that noise addition techniques might help the model .

summarize the discussion on sri experiments and mean subtraction </s> phd f: and we 're on . professor d: ok . might wan na close the door so that uh , stephane will phd f: i 'll get it . professor d: yeah phd f: hey dave ? could you go ahead and turn on , uh , stephane 's grad c: mm - hmm . professor d: so that 's the virtual stephane over there . phd f: ok . professor g: do you use a pc for recording ? or phd f: uh , yeah , a linux box . yeah . it 's got , uh , like sixteen channels going into it . professor g: uh - huh . uh - huh . the quality is quite good ? or ? phd f: mm - hmm . yeah , so far , it 's been pretty good . professor g: mm - hmm . professor d: yeah . so , uh , yeah the suggestion was to have these guys start to phd f: ok . why do n't you go ahead , dave ? grad c: ok . um , so , yeah , the this past week i 've been main mainly occupied with , um , getting some results , u from the sri system trained on this short hub - five training set for the mean subtraction method . and , um , i ran some tests last night . but , um , c the results are suspicious . um , it 's , um , cuz they 're the baseline results are worse than , um , andreas than results andreas got previously . and it could have something to do with , um phd f: that 's on digits ? grad c: that 's on digits . it c it it could h it could have something to do with , um , downsampling . phd f: hmm . grad c: that 's that 's worth looking into . um , d and , um , ap ap apart from that , i guess the the main thing i have t ta i have to talk is , um , where i 'm planning to go over the next week . um . so i 've been working on integrating this mean subtraction approach into the smartkom system . and there 's this question of , well , so , um , in my tests before with htk i found it worked it worked the best with about twelve seconds of data used to estimate the mean , but , we 'll often have less { comment } in the smartkom system . um . so i think we 'll use as much data as we have at a particular time , and we 'll we 'll concatenate utterances together , um , to get as much data as we possibly can from the user . but , um , there 's a question of how to set up the models . so um , we could train the models . if we think twelve seconds is ideal we could train the models using twelve seconds to calculate the mean , to mean subtract the training data . or we could , um , use some other amount . so like i did an experiment where i , um , was using six seconds in test , um , but , for i tried twelve seconds in train . and i tried , um , um , the same in train i 'm a i tried six seconds in train . and six seconds in train was about point three percent better . um , and um , it 's not clear to me yet whether that 's something significant . so i wan na do some tests and , um , actually make some plots of , um for a particular amount of data and test what happens if you vary the amount of data in train . phd f: mm - hmm . professor d: uh , guenter , i do n't know if you t followed this stuff but this is , uh , a uh , uh , long - term long - term window f f yeah . yeah , he you talked about it . professor g: yeah , we we spoke about it already , professor d: oh , ok . so you know what he 's doing . professor g: yeah . professor d: alright . grad c: y s so i was i actually ran the experiments mostly and i i was i was hoping to have the plots with me today . i just did n't get to it . but , um yeah , i wou i would be curious about people 's feedback on this cuz i 'm @ @ { comment } i p i think there are some i think it 's it 's kind of like a a bit of a tricky engineering problem . i 'm trying to figure out what 's the optimal way to set this up . so , um , i 'll try to make the plots and then put some postscript up on my on my web page . and i 'll mention it in my status report if people wan na take a look . professor d: you could clarify something for me . you 're saying point three percent , you take a point three percent hit , when the training and testing links are do n't match or something ? phd e: hello . professor d: is that what it is ? grad c: w well , it c professor d: or ? grad c: i i do n't think it it 's just for any mismatch you take a hit . professor d: yeah . grad c: i in some cases it might be u better to have a mismatch . like i think i saw something like like if you only have two seconds in test , or , um , maybe it was something like four seconds , you actually do a little better if you , um , train on six seconds than if you train on four seconds . professor d: yeah . right . grad c: um , but the case , uh with the point three percent hit was using six seconds in test , um , comparing train on twelve seconds { comment } versus train on six seconds . professor d: and which was worse ? grad c: the train on twelve seconds . professor d: ok . but point three percent , uh , w from what to what ? that 's point three percent grad c: on the the the accuracies w went from it was something vaguely like ninety - five point six accuracy , um , improved to ninety - five point nine wh when i professor d: so four point four to four point one . grad c: ok . professor d: so yeah . so about a about an eight percent , uh , seven or eight percent relative ? grad c: ok . professor d: uh , yeah . well , i think in a p you know , if if you were going for an evaluation system you 'd care . but if you were doing a live system that people were actually using nobody would notice . it 's uh , i think the thing is to get something that 's practical , that that you could really use . grad c: huh . that 's that 's interesting . alright , the e uh , i see your point . i guess i was thinking of it as , um , an interesting research problem . the how to g i was thinking that for the asru paper we could have a section saying , `` for smartkom , we we d in we tried this approach in , uh , interactive system `` , which i do n't think has been done before . professor d: yeah . mm - hmm . grad c: and and then there was two research questions from that . professor d: mm - hmm . grad c: and one is the k does it still work if you just use the past history ? professor d: mm - hmm . grad c: alright , and the other was this question of , um what i was just talking about now . so i guess that 's why i thought it was interesting . professor d: i mean , a short - time fft short - time cepstrum calculation , uh , mean u mean calculation work that people have in commercial systems , they do this all the time . they the they calculate it from previous utterances and then use it , you know . grad c: yeah , um . professor d: but but , uh , as you say , there has n't been that much with this long long - time , uh , spectra work . grad c: oh , o oh , ok . professor d: uh , grad c: so that 's that 's that 's standard . um professor d: yeah . pretty common . grad c: ok . professor d: yeah . um , but , u uh , yes . no , it is interesting . and the other thing is , i mean , there 's two sides to these really small , uh , gradations in performance . um , i mean , on the one hand in a practical system if something is , uh , four point four percent error , four point one percent error , people wo n't really tell be able to tell the difference . on the other hand , when you 're doing , uh , research , you may , eh you might find that the way that you build up a change from a ninety - five percent accurate system to a ninety - eight percent accurate system is through ten or twelve little things that you do that each are point three percent . so so the they they it 's i do n't mean to say that they 're they 're irrelevant . uh , they are relevant . but , um , i for a demo , you wo n't see it . grad c: mm - hmm . right . ok . professor d: yeah . grad c: and , um , let 's l let 's see . um , ok . and then there 's um , another thing i wan na start looking at , um , wi is , um , the choice of the analysis window length . so i 've just been using two seconds just because that 's what carlos did before . uh , i wrote to him asking about he chose the two seconds . and it seemed like he chose it a bit informally . so , um , with the with the htk set - up i should be able to do some experiments , on just varying that length , say between one and three seconds , in a few different reverberation conditions , um , say this room and also a few of the artificial impulse responses we have for reverberation , just , um , making some plots and seeing how they look . and , um , so , with the the sampling rate i was using , one second or two seconds or four seconds is at a power of two um , number of samples and , um , i 'll i 'll jus f for the ones in between i guess i 'll just zero - pad . professor d: mm - hmm . i guess one thing that might also be an issue , uh , cuz part of what you 're doing is you 're getting a a spectrum over a bunch of different kinds of speech sounds . um , and so it might matter how fast someone was talking for instance . grad c: oh . professor d: you know , if you if if if there 's a lot of phones in one second maybe you 'll get a a really good sampling of all these different things , and and , uh , on the other hand if someone 's talking slowly maybe you 'd need more . so grad c: huh . professor d: i do n't know if you have some samples of faster or slower speech but it might make a difference . i do n't know . grad c: uh , yeah , i do n't i do n't think the ti - digits data that i have , um , i is would be appropriate for that . professor d: yeah , probably not . yeah . grad c: but what do you what about if i w i fed it through some kind of , um , speech processing algorithm that changed the speech rate ? professor d: yeah , but then you 'll have the degradation of of , uh , whatever you do uh , added onto that . but maybe . yeah , maybe if you get something that sounds that that 's does a pretty job at that . grad c: yeah . well , uh , just if you think it 's worth looking into . professor d: you could imagine that . grad c: i mean , it it is getting a little away from reverberation . professor d: um , yeah . it 's just that you 're making a choice uh , i was thinking more from the system aspect , if you 're making a choice for smartkom , that that that it might be that it 's it c the optimal number could be different , depending on grad c: yeah . right . professor d: could be . i do n't know . grad c: and and th the third thing , um , uh , is , um , barry explained lda filtering to me yesterday . and so , um , mike shire in his thesis um , did a a series of experiments , um , training lda filters in d on different conditions . and you were interested in having me repeat this for for this mean subtraction approach ? is is that right ? or for these long analysis windows , i guess , is the right way to put it . professor d: i guess , the the the issue i was the general issue i was bringing up was that if you 're have a moving moving window , uh , a wa a a set of weights times things that , uh , move along , shift along in time , that you have in fact a linear time invariant filter . and you just happened to have picked a particular one by setting all the weights to be equal . and so the issue is what are some other filters that you could use , uh , in that sense of `` filter `` ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor d: and , um , as i was saying , i think the simplest thing to do is not to train anything , but just to do some sort of , uh , uh , hamming or hanning , uh , kind of window , kind of thing , grad c: right . mm - hmm . professor d: just sort of to de - emphasize the jarring . so i think that would sort of be the first thing to do . but then , yeah , the lda i uh , is interesting because it would sort of say well , suppose you actually trained this up to do the best you could by some criterion , what would the filter look like then ? grad c: uh - huh . professor d: uh , and , um , that 's sort of what we 're doing in this aur - aurora stuff . and , uh , it 's still not clear to me in the long run whether the best thing to do would be to do that or to have some stylized version of the filter that looks like these things you 've trained up , because you always have the problem that it 's trained up for one condition and it is n't quite right for another . so . uh that 's that 's why that 's why rasta filter has actually ended up lasting a long time , people still using it quite a bit , because y you do n't change it . so does n't get any worse . uh , grad c: huh . professor d: anyway . grad c: o ok . so , um , a actually i was just thinking about what i was asking about earlier , wi which is about having less than say twelve seconds in the smartkom system to do the mean subtraction . you said in systems where you use cepstral mean subtraction , they concatenate utterances and , do you know how they address this issue of , um , testing versus training ? can professor d: go ahead . professor g: i think what they do is they do it always on - line , i mean , that you just take what you have from the past , that you calculate the mean of this and subtract the mean . grad c: ok . um professor g: and then you can yeah , you you can increase your window whi while you get while you are getting more samples . grad c: ok , um , and , um , so so in tha in that case , wh what do they do when they 're t um , performing the cepstral mean subtraction on the training data ? so because you 'd have hours and hours of training data . so do they cut it off and start over ? at intervals ? or ? professor g: so do you have uh , you you mean you have files which are hours of hours long ? or ? grad c: oh , well , no . i guess not . but professor g: yeah . i mean , usually you have in the training set you have similar conditions , i mean , file lengths are , i guess the same order or in the same size as for test data , or are n't they ? grad c: ok . but it 's ok . so if someone 's interacting with the system , though , uh , morgan uh , morgan said that you would tend to , um , chain utterances together um , r professor d: well , i think what i was s i thought what i was saying was that , um , at any given point you are gon na start off with what you had from before . grad c: oh . professor d: from and so if you 're splitting things up into utterances so , for instance , in a dialogue system , { comment } where you 're gon na be asking , uh , you know , th for some information , there 's some initial th something . and , you know , the first time out you you might have some general average . but you you d you do n't have very much information yet . but at after they 've given one utterance you 've got something . you can compute your mean cepstra from that , grad c: mm - hmm . professor d: and then can use it for the next thing that they say , uh , so that , you know , the performance should be better that second time . um , and i think the heuristics of exactly how people handle that and how they handle their training i 'm sure vary from place to place . but i think the ideally , it seems to me anyway , that you you would wan na do the same thing in training as you do in test . but that 's that 's just , uh , a prejudice . and i think anybody working on this with some particular task would experiment . grad c: right . i g i guess the question i had was , um , amount of data e u was the amount of data that you 'd give it to , um update this estimate . because say you if you have say five thousand utterances in your training set , um , and you you keep the mean from the last utterance , by the time it gets to the five thousandth utterance professor d: no , but those are all different people with different i mean , i in y so for instance , in in the in a telephone task , these are different phone calls . so you do n't wan na @ @ { comment } chain it together from a from a different phone call . grad c: ok , so so so they would g s professor d: so it 's within speaker , within phone call , professor g: yeah . professor d: if it 's a dialogue system , it 's within whatever this characteristic you 're trying to get rid of is expected to be consistent over , professor g: hmm . grad c: r and it professor d: right ? grad c: right . ok , so you 'd you and so in training you would start over at at every new phone call or at every new speaker . yeah , professor d: yeah . grad c: ok . professor d: yeah . now , you know , maybe you 'd use something from the others just because at the beginning of a call you do n't know anything , and so you might have some kind of general thing that 's your best guess to start with . but so , s i i you know , a lot of these things are proprietary so we 're doing a little bit of guesswork here . i mean , what do comp what do people do who really face these problems in the field ? well , they have companies and they do n't tell other people exactly what they do . grad c: r right . professor d: but but i mean , when you the the hints that you get from what they when they talk about it are that they do they all do something like this . grad c: right , ok . i see . bec - because i so this smartkom task first off , it 's this tv and movie information system . professor d: yeah , but you might have somebody who 's using it grad c: and yeah . professor d: and then later you might have somebody else who 's using it . grad c: yeah . right . right . i i see . professor d: and so you 'd wan na set some grad c: i was i was about to say . so if if you ask it `` what what movies are on tv tonight ? `` , professor d: yeah . yeah . grad c: if i look at my wristwatch when i say that it 's about two seconds . the way i currently have the mean subtraction , um , set up , the the analysis window is two seconds . professor d: yeah . grad c: so what you just said , about what do you start with , raises a question of what do i start with then ? professor d: mm - hmm . grad c: i guess it because professor d: well , w ok , so in that situation , though , th maybe what 's a little different there , is i think you 're talking about there 's only one it it it also depends we 're getting a little off track here . grad c: oh , right . professor d: r but but but uh , there 's been some discussion about whether the work we 're doing in that project is gon na be for the kiosk or for the mobile or for both . and i think for this kind of discussion it matters . if it 's in the kiosk , then the physical situation is the same . it 's gon na you know , the exact interaction of the microphone 's gon na differ depending on the person and so forth . but at least the basic acoustics are gon na be the same . so f if it 's really in one kiosk , then i think that you could just chain together and and you know , as much as much speech as possible to because what you 're really trying to get at is the is the reverberation characteristic . grad c: yeah . professor d: but in in the case of the mobile , uh , { comment } presumably the acoustic 's changing all over the place . grad c: right . professor d: and in that case you probably do n't wan na have it be endless because you wan na have some sort of it 's it 's not a question of how long do you think it 's you can get an approximation to a stationary something , given that it 's not really stationary . grad c: right . right . professor d: so . professor g: hmm . grad c: and i i g i guess i s just started thinking of another question , which is , for for the very first frame , w what what do i do if i 'm if i take if i use that frame to calculate the mean , then i 'm just gon na get n nothing . professor d: mm - hmm . grad c: um , professor d: right . grad c: so i should probably have some kind of default mean for the first f couple of frames ? professor d: yeah . yeah . grad c: ok . professor d: yeah . or subtract nothing . i mean , it 's grad c: or subtract nothing . and and that 's that 's i guess that 's something that 's p people have figured out how to deal with in cepstral mean subtraction as well ? professor d: yeah , yeah . yeah , people do something . they they , uh , they have some , um , uh , in in cepstral mean subtraction , for short - term window analysis windows , as is usually done , you 're trying to get rid of some very general characteristic . and so , uh , if you have any other information about what a general kind of characteristic would be , then you you can do it there . phd f: you can also you can also reflect the data . so you take , uh you know , i 'm not sure how many frames you need . grad c: uh - huh . phd f: but you take that many from the front and flip it around to a as the negative value . professor d: yeah , that 's yeah . phd f: so you can always professor d: the other thing is that and and i i remember b b n doing this , is that if you have a multi - pass system , um , if the first pass ta it takes most of the computation , the second and the third pass could be very , very quick , grad c: mmm . professor d: just looking at a relatively small n small , uh , space of hypotheses . grad c: uh - huh . professor d: then you can do your first pass without any subtraction at all . grad c: oh . professor d: and then your second pass , uh , uh , eliminates those most of those hypotheses by , uh by having an improved improved version o of the analysis . grad c: ok . ok . professor d: so . grad c: ok . so that was all i had , for now . professor d: yeah . phd f: do you wan na go , barry ? grad a: yeah , ok . um , so for the past , uh , week an or two , i 've been just writing my , uh , formal thesis proposal . um , so i 'm taking this qualifier exam that 's coming up in two weeks . and i i finish writing a proposal and submit it to the committee . um . and uh , should i should i explain , uh , more about what what i 'm proposing to do , and s and stuff ? professor d: yes , briefly . phd f: yeah briefly . grad a: ok . um , so briefly , i 'm proposing to do a n a new p approach to speech recognition using um , a combination of , uh , multi - band ideas and ideas , um , { comment } about the uh , acoustic phonec phonetic approach to speech recognition . um , so i will be using these graphical models that um , that implement the multi - band approach to recognize a set of intermediate categories that might involve , uh , things like phonetic features or other other f feature things that are more closely related to the acoustic signal itself . um , and the hope in all of this is that by going multi - band and by going into these , um intermediate classifications , that we can get a system that 's more robust to to unseen noises , and situations like that . um , and so , some of the research issues involved in this are , um , { comment } one , what kind of intermediate categories do we need to classify ? um , another one is um , what what other types of structures in these multi - band graphical models should we consider in order to um , combine evidence from the sub - bands ? and , uh , the third one is how do we how do we merge all the , uh , information from the individual uh , multi - band classifiers to come up with word word recognition or or phone recognition things . um , so basically that 's that 's what i 've been doing . and , phd f: so you 've got two weeks , huh ? grad a: i got two weeks to brush up on d um , presentation stuff and , um , professor d: oh , i thought you were finishing your thesis in two weeks . grad a: but . oh , that too . professor d: yeah . grad a: yeah . phd f: are you gon na do any dry runs for your thing , grad a: yes . phd f: or are you just gon na grad a: yes . i , um i 'm i 'm gon na do some . would you be interested ? to help out ? phd f: sure . grad a: ok . phd f: sure . grad a: thanks . yeah . phd f: is that it ? grad a: that 's it . phd f: hhh . ok . uh . hhh . let 's see . so we 've got forty minutes left , and it seems like there 's a lot of material . an - any suggestions about where we where we should go next ? phd b: mmm , @ @ . phd f: uh . do you wan na go , sunil ? maybe we 'll just start with you . phd b: yeah . but i actually stuck most of this in our m last meeting with guenter . um , but i 'll just um , so the last week , uh , i showed some results with only speechdat - car which was like some fifty - six percent . and , uh , i did n't h i mean , i i found that the results i mean , i was n't getting that r results on the ti - digit . so i was like looking into `` why , what is wrong with the ti - digits ? `` . why why i was not getting it . and i found that , the noise estimation is a reason for the ti - digits to perform worse than the baseline . so , uh , i actually , picked th i mean , the first thing i did was i just scaled the noise estimate by a factor which is less than one to see if that because i found there are a lot of zeros in the spectrogram for the ti - digits when i used this approach . so the first thing i did was i just scaled the noise estimate . and i found so the the results that i 've shown here are the complete results using the new well , the n the new technique is nothing but the noise estimate scaled by a factor of point five . so it 's just an ad - hoc i mean , some intermediate result , because it 's not optimized for anything . so the results the trend the only trend i could see from those results was like the the p the current noise estimation or the , uh , noise composition scheme is working good for like the car noise type of thing . because i 've the only only p very good result in the ti - digits is the noise car noise condition for their test - a , which is like the best i could see that uh , for any non - stationary noise like `` babble `` or `` subway `` or any `` street `` , some `` restaurant `` noise , it 's like it 's not performing w very well . so , the so that that 's the first thing i c uh , i could make out from this stuff . and professor g: yeah , i think what is important to see is that there is a big difference between the training modes . phd b: yeah . professor g: uh - huh . if you have clean training , you get also a fifty percent improvement . phd b: yeah . professor g: but if you have muddy condition training you get only twenty percent . phd b: yeah . yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: uh , and in that twenty percent @ @ it 's very inconsistent across different noise conditions . professor g: mm - hmm . mmm . phd b: so i have like a forty - five percent for `` car noise `` and then there 's a minus five percent for the `` babble `` , professor g: mmm . phd b: and there 's this thirty - three for the `` station `` . and so it 's it 's not it 's not actually very consistent across . so . the only correlation between the speechdat - car and this performance is the c stationarity of the noise that is there in these conditions and the speechdat - car . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: and , uh so so the overall result is like in the last page , which is like forty - seven , which is still very imbalanced because there are like fifty - six percent on the speechdat - car and thirty - five percent on the ti - digits . and uh , ps the fifty - six percent is like comparable to what the french telecom gets , but the thirty - five percent is way off . professor d: i 'm sort of confused but this i 'm looking on the second page , phd b: oh , yep . professor d: and it says `` fifty percent `` looking in the lower right - hand corner , `` fifty percent relative performance `` . professor g: for the clean training . professor d: is that professor g: u and if you if you look professor d: is that fifty percent improvement ? phd b: yeah . for that 's for the clean training and the noisy testing for the ti - digits . professor g: yeah . professor d: so it 's improvement over the baseline mel cepstrum ? phd b: yeah . yeah . professor d: but the baseline mel cepstrum under those training does n't do as well i i 'm i 'm trying to understand why it 's it 's eighty percent that 's an accuracy number , i guess , phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah . professor d: right ? so that 's not as good as the one up above . phd b: no . professor d: but the fifty is better than the one up above , phd b: yeah . professor d: so i 'm confused . phd b: uh , actually the noise compensation whatever , uh , we are put in it works very well for the high mismatch condition . i mean , it 's consistent in the speechdat - car and in the clean training also it gives it but this fifty percent is is that the the high mismatch performance equivalent to the high mismatch performance in the speech . phd f: so n s so since the high mismatch performance is much worse to begin with , it 's easier to get a better relative improvement . phd b: yeah . yeah . i do . yeah , yeah . so by putting this noise phd e: yeah . yeah , if we look at the figures on the right , we see that the reference system is very bad . professor d: oh . phd b: yeah . the reference drops like a very fast professor d: oh , oh , oh , oh , oh , oh . phd e: like for clean clean training condition . professor d: i see . phd b: yeah . professor d: i see . phd e: nnn . professor d: this is this is ti digits { comment } we 're looking at ? phd b: yeah . yeah . oh professor d: this whole page is ti - digits phd b: oh . yeah . professor d: or this is ? phd b: it 's not written anywhere . yeah , it 's ti - digits . the first r spreadsheet is ti - digits . professor d: mmm . how does clean training do for the , uh , `` car `` professor g: hmm . phd b: the `` car `` ? professor d: stuff ? phd b: oh . still it still , uh that that 's still consistent . i mean , i get the best performance in the case of `` car `` , which is the third column in the a condition . professor d: no . i mean , this is added noise . i mean , this is ti - digits . i 'm sorry . i meant in in the in the , uh , multi - language , uh , uh , finnish and phd b: uh professor g: this is next next page . phd b: that 's the next next spreadsheet , is professor g: hmm . phd b: so that is the performance for italian , finnish and spanish . professor d: `` training condition `` oh , right . so `` clean `` corresponds to `` high mismatch `` . phd b: yeah . professor d: and `` increase `` , that 's increase e professor g: improvement . phd b: improvement . that 's `` percentage increase `` is the percentage improvement over the baseline . professor g: yeah . it 's it 's a phd b: so that 's professor d: which means decrease in word error rate ? phd b: yeah . professor d: ok , so `` percentage increase `` means decrease ? phd b: yeah , yeah . professor d: ok . professor g: yeah . the the w there was a very long discussion about this on on the on the , uh , amsterdam meeting . professor d: yeah . professor g: how to how to calculate it then . phd b: yeah . there 's there 's a professor g: i i i guess you are using finally this the scheme which they phd b: which is there in the spreadsheet . professor g: ok . phd b: i 'm not changing anything in there . professor g: mmm . professor d: alright . phd b: so . uh , yeah . so all the hi h m numbers are w very good , in the sense , they are better than what the french telecom gets . so . but the the only number that 's still i mean , which stephane also got in his result was that medium mismatch of the finnish , which is very which is a very strange situation where we used the we changed the proto for initializing the hmm i mean , this this is basically because it gets stuck in some local minimum in the training . that seventy - five point seven nine in the finnish mismatch which is that the eleven point nine six what we see . professor d: uh - huh . professor g: mmm . phd b: yeah . professor d: so we have to jiggle it somehow ? phd b: yeah so we start with that different proto and it becomes eighty - eight , which is like some fifty percent improvement . professor d: s wait a minute . start with a different what ? phd b: different prototype , which is like a different initialization for the , uh , s transition probabilities . it 's just that right now , the initialization is to stay more in the current state , which is point four point six , right ? yeah . phd e: yeah . phd b: and if it changes to point five point five , which is equal @ @ for transition and self loop where it becomes eighty - eight percent . phd f: well , but that involves mucking with the back - end , phd b: yeah . we ca n't do it . phd f: which is not allowed . phd b: yeah . phd e: mmm . phd f: yeah . phd b: so . professor g: i mean , it uh , like , i i i it is well known , this this medium match condition of the finnish data has some strange effects . phd b: very s phd e: yeah . phd b: it has a very few at uh , actually , c uh , tran i mean , words also . professor g: i mean , that is yeah , phd b: it 's a very , very small set , actually . professor g: that too . yeah . uh - huh . phd b: so there is professor g: there is a l a there is a lot of uh , there are a lot of utterances with music in with music in the background . phd b: yeah . yeah , yeah , yeah . yeah . professor g: mmm . professor d: uh - huh . phd b: yeah . it has some music also . i mean , very horrible music like like i know . professor d: so maybe for that one you need a much smarter vad ? mmm , phd b: uh professor d: if it 's music . phd b: so , that that 's the that 's about the results . and , uh , the summary is like ok . so there are the other thing what i tried was , which i explained in the last meeting , is using the channel zero for , uh , for both dropping and estimating the noise . and that 's like just to f n get a feel of how good it is . i guess the fifty - six percent improvement in the speechdat - car becomes like sixty - seven percent . like ten percent better . but that 's that 's not a that 's a cheating experiment . so . that 's just so , m w professor g: but the but the , uh , forty - seven point nine percent which you have now , that 's already a remarkable improvement in comparison to the first proposal . phd b: yeah . so we had forty - four percent in the first proposal . professor g: ok . phd b: yeah . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: we have f a big im so the major improvement that we got was in all the high mismatch cases , because all those numbers were in sixties and seventies because we never had any noise compensations . professor g: mmm . phd b: so that 's where the biggest improvement came up . not much in the well match and the medium match and ti - digits also right now . so this is still at three or four percent improvement over the first proposal . professor g: mmm . mmm . professor d: yeah , so that 's good . phd b: yeah . so . professor d: then if we can improve the noise estimation , then it should get better . professor g: yeah , i i started thinking about also i mean yeah , uh , i discovered the same problem when i started working on uh , on this aurora task almost two years ago , that you have the problem with this mulit a at the beginning we had only this multi condition training of the ti - digits . phd b: yeah . professor g: and , uh , i i found the same problem . just taking um , what we were used to u use , i mean , uh , some type of spectral subtraction , { comment } y you get even worse results than the basis phd b: yeah . yeah , professor g: and uh phd b: yeah . professor g: i i tried to find an explanation for it , professor d: mmm . professor g: so phd b: so . yes . stephane also has the same experience of using the spectral subtraction right ? professor g: mmm . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . so here here i mean , i found that it 's if i changed the noise estimate i could get an improvement . phd e: yeah . phd b: so that 's so it 's something which i can actually pursue , is the noise estimate . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: and professor g: yeah , i think what you do is in when when you have the the this multi - condition training mode , um then you have then you can train models for the speech , for the words , as well as for the pauses where you really have all information about the noise available . phd b: yeah . professor g: and it was surprising at the beginning it was not surprising to me that you get really the best results on doing it this way , i mean , in comparison to any type of training on clean data and any type of processing . but it was so , u u it it seems to be the best what wh wh what what we can do in this moment is multi - condition training . and every when we now start introducing some some noise reduction technique we we introduce also somehow artificial distortions . phd b: yeah . professor g: and these artificial distortions uh , i have the feeling that they are the reason why why we have the problems in this multi - condition training . that means the h m ms we trained , they are they are based on gaussians , phd b: yeah . professor g: and on modeling gaussians . and if you can i move a little bit with this ? yeah . and if we introduce now this this u spectral subtraction , or wiener filtering stuff so , usually what you have is maybe , um i 'm i 'm showing now an envelope um maybe you 'll f for this time . so usually you have maybe in clean condition you have something which looks like this . and if it is noisy it is somewhere here . and then you try to subtract it or wiener filter or whatever . and what you get is you have always these problems , that you have this these these these zeros in there . phd b: yeah . professor g: and you have to do something if you get these negative values . i mean , this is your noise estimate and you somehow subtract it or do whatever . uh , and then you have and then i think what you do is you introduce some some artificial distribution in this uh in in the models . i mean , i you you train it also this way but , i somehow there is u u there is no longer a a gaussian distribution . it is somehow a strange distribution which we introduce with these artificial distortions . and and i was thinking that that might be the reason why you get these problems in the especially in the multi - condition training mode . phd b: yeah , yeah . professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: th - that 's true . yeah the c the models are not complex enough to absorb that additional variability that you 're introducing . professor g: s phd f: thanks adam . professor g: yeah . yes . phd b: well , that 's yeah . so phd e: i also have the feeling that um , the reason ye why it does n't work is yeah , that the models are much are t um , not complex enough . because i actually i als always had a good experience with spectral subtraction , just a straight spectral subtraction algorithm when i was using neural networks , big neural networks , which maybe are more able to model strange distributions and professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: but yeah . then i tried the same exactly the same spectral subtraction algorithm on these aurora tasks and it simply does n't work . it 's even it , uh , hurts even . professor g: hmm . phd e: so . professor d: we probably should at some point here try the tandem the the the system - two kind of stuff with this , with the spectral subtraction for that reason . professor g: hmm . professor d: cuz again , it should do a transformation to a domain where it maybe looks more gaussian . professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: hmm . yeah , y i i was whe w w just yesterday when i was thinking about it um w what what we could try to do , or do about it i mean , if you if you get at this in this situation that you get this this negative values and you simply set it to zero or to a constant or whatever if we if we would use there a somehow , um a random generator which which has a certain distribution , u not a certain { comment } yeah , a special distribution we should see we we have to think about it . phd b: it 's professor g: and that we , so , introduce again some natural behavior in this trajectory . professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: mm - hmm . very different from speech . still , i mean , it should n't confuse the professor g: yeah , i mean , similar to what what you see really u in in the real um noisy situation . phd b: ok . mm - hmm . professor g: or i in the clean situation . but but somehow a a natural distribution . professor d: but is n't that s again sort of the idea of the additive thing , if it as as we had in the j stuff ? i mean , basically if if you have random data , um , in in the time domain , then when you look at the s spectrum it 's gon na be pretty flat . and and , professor g: mm - hmm . professor d: uh , so just add something everywhere rather than just in those places . it 's just a constant , right ? phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah . i think e yeah . it 's it 's just especially in these segments , i mean , you introduce , um , very artificial behavior . professor d: yeah . yeah . professor g: and professor d: well , see if you add something everywhere , it has almost no effect up up up on on top . and it and it and it has significant effect down there . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: that was , sort of the idea . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: hmm . yeah the that 's true . that those those regions are the cause for this @ @ those negative values or whatever you get . professor g: i mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . so . professor g: i mean , we we could trit uh , we we could think how w what what we could try . phd b: yeah . yeah , yeah . professor g: i mean , it it was just an idea . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: i mean , we professor d: i think when it 's noisy people should just speak up . professor g: to mmm . phd b: so phd e: if we look at the france telecom proposal , they use some kind of noise addition . they have a random number generator , right ? and they add noise on the trajectory of , uh , the log energy only , right ? professor d: oh , they do ! phd b: yep . professor d: oh . phd b: c - z c - zero and log energy also , yeah . phd e: yeah . um , but i do n't know how much effect it this have , but they do that . phd b: now ? phd e: yeah . phd b: oh . professor g: uh - huh . professor d: hmm . professor g: so it it it it it is l somehow similar to what phd e: i think because they have th log energy , yeah , and then just generate random number . they have some kind of mean and variance , and they add this number to to the log energy simply . um phd b: yeah the the log energy , the after the clean cleaning up . professor d: to the l phd b: so they add a random random noise to it . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: to the just the energy , or to the mel uh , to the mel filter ? phd b: no . on - only to the log energy . phd e: only yeah . professor d: oh . professor g: uh - huh . professor d: so it cuz i mean , i think this is most interesting for the mel filters . right ? professor g: uh - huh . professor d: or or f f one or the other . professor g: but but they do not apply filtering of the log energy or what phd b: like , uh i mean professor g: like like a spectral subtraction or phd b: no their filter is not m domain . s so they did filter their time signal professor g: yeah . i kn phd b: and then what @ @ u professor g: and then they calculate from this , the log energy phd b: yeah then after that it is s almost the same as the baseline prop system . professor g: or ? mm - hmm . phd b: and then the final log energy that they that they get , that to the to that they add some random noise . professor d: yeah , but again , that 's just log energy as opposed to filter bank energy . phd b: yeah . so it 's not the mel . professor g: mmm . phd b: you know , it 's not the mel filter bank output . professor d: yeah . phd b: these are log energy computed from the time s domain signal , professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: not from the mel filter banks . so did professor d: hmm . phd e: maybe it 's just a way to decrease the importance of this particular parameter in the in the world feature vector cu if you add noise to one of the parameters , you widen the distributions professor d: hmm . phd b: becomes flat . the variance , yeah , reduces , phd e: and phd b: so . hmm , yeah . phd e: eee - sss - uh . professor d: so it could reduce the dependence on the amplitude and so on . yeah . phd e: yeah . phd b: yeah . although professor d: maybe . phd e: mm - hmm . phd f: so is , uh is that about it ? phd b: uh , so the phd f: or ? phd b: ok . so the other thing is the i 'm just looking at a little bit on the delay issue where the delay of the system is like a hundred and eighty millisecond . so i just just tried another sk system i mean , another filter which i 've like shown at the end . which is very similar to the existing uh , filter . only uh , only thing is that the phase is is like a totally nonlinear phase because it 's a it 's not a symmetric filter anymore . phd f: this is for the lda ? phd b: yeah so so this this is like so this makes the delay like zero for lda because it 's completely causal . phd f: oh . phd b: so so i got actually just the results for the italian for that and that 's like so the fifty - one point o nine has become forty - eight point o six , which is like three percent relative degradation . so i have like the fifty - one point o nine phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: and so . i do n't know it f fares for the other conditions . so it 's just like it 's like a three percent relative degradation , with the professor g: but but is there is there a problem with the one hundred eighty milliseconds ? or ? phd b: u uh , may professor d: th - well , this is professor g: yeah , i mean , i talked to to uh , i ta uh , i talked , uh , about it with with hynek . i mean , there is professor d: this is so so , basically our our position is that , um , we should n't be unduly constraining the latency at this point because we 're all still experimenting with trying to make the performance better in the presence of noise . uh , there is a minority in that group who is a arguing who are arguing for um , uh , having a further constraining of the latency . so we 're s just continuing to keep aware of what the trade - offs are and , you know , what what do we gain from having longer or shorter latencies ? professor g: mmm . professor d: but since we always seem to at least get something out of longer latencies not being so constrained , we 're tending to go with that if we 're not told we ca n't do it . phd f: what where was the , um the smallest latency of all the systems last time ? professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: the french telecom . professor d: well , france telecom was was was very short latency professor g: it 's professor d: and they had a very good result . phd f: what what was it ? professor d: it was thirty - five . professor g: it was in the order of thirty milliseconds professor d: yeah . professor g: or phd f: thirteen ? professor d: th th professor g: thirty . phd f: thirty . phd b: thirty - four . professor d: yeah . professor g: yeah . professor d: yeah , so it 's possible to get very short latency . professor g: professor d: but , again , we 're the the approaches that we 're using are ones that take advantage of phd f: yeah . i was just curious about where we are compared to , you know , the shortest that people have done . professor g: but but i think this thirty milliseconds they they did it did not include the the delta calculation . phd b: yeah . yeah . yeah . professor g: and this is included now , phd b: yeah . yeah . professor g: you know ? phd b: so if they include the delta , it will be an additional forty millisecond . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: yeah . professor g: yeah . i i do n't remember the i th they were not using the htk delta ? phd b: no , they 're using a nine - point window , which is like a four on either side , professor g: nine - point . phd b: which is like professor g: ok . phd b: f so professor g: mmm . phd b: they did n't include that . professor d: yeah . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: so phd e: where does the comprish compression in decoding delay comes from ? phd f: ok . phd e: phd b: that 's the way the the the frames are packed , like you have to wait for one more frame to pack . because it 's the crc is computed for two frames always . professor d: well , that the they would need that forty milliseconds also . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: no . they actually changed the compression scheme altogether . professor d: right ? phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: so they have their own compression and decoding scheme and they i do n't know what they have . professor d: oh . phd b: but they have coded zero delay for that . because they ch i know they changed it , their compression . they have their own crc , their their own error correction mechanism . professor d: oh . phd b: so they do n't have to wait more than one more frame to know whether the current frame is in error . professor d: oh , ok . phd b: so they changed the whole thing so that there 's no delay for that compression and part also . professor d: hmm . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: even you have reported actually zero delay for the compression . i thought maybe you also have some different professor g: mmm . mmm . no , i think i i used this scheme as it was before . phd b: ok . ah . mm - hmm . phd f: ok , we 've got twenty minutes so we should probably try to move along . uh , did you wan na go next , stephane ? phd e: i can go next . yeah . mmm . professor d: oh . wait a minute . it 's phd e: it 's yeah , we have to take professor d: wait a minute . i think i 'm confused . phd e: well ok . professor d: alright . phd e: so you have w w one sheet ? this one is you do n't need it , alright . professor d: uh phd e: so you have to take the whole the five . there should be five sheets . professor d: ok , phd e: professor d: i have four now because i left one with dave because i thought i was dropping one off and passing the others on . so , no , we 're not . ok . phd b: thanks . phd h: please give me one . professor d: ah , we need one more over here . phd e: ok , maybe there 's not enough for everybody . phd f: i can share with barry . grad a: yeah . professor d: oh , ok . phd e: but can we look at this ? professor g: ok . grad c: yeah . phd e: so , yeah , there are two figures showing actually the , mmm , um , performance of the current vad . so it 's a n neural network based on plp parameters , uh , which estimate silence probabilities , and then i just put a median filtering on this to smooth the probabilities , right ? um i did n't use the the scheme that 's currently in the proposal because i do n't want to in the proposal well , in in the system we want to add like speech frame before every word and a little bit of of , uh , s a couple of frames after also . uh , but to estimate the performance of the vad , we do n't want to do that , because it would artificially increase the um the false alarm rate of speech detection . right ? um , so , there is u normally a figure for the finnish and one for italian . and maybe someone has two for the italian because i 'm missing one figure here . phd b: no . phd e: well well , whatever . uh yeah , so one surprising thing that we can notice first is that apparently the speech miss rate is uh , higher than the false alarm rate . so . it means professor g: so so what is the lower curve and the upper curve ? phd e: mm - hmm . yeah , there are two curves . one curve 's for the close - talking microphone , which is the lower curve . professor g: yeah . phd e: and the other one is for the distant microphone professor g: ah , ok . phd e: which has more noise so , it 's logical that it performs worse . so as i was saying , the miss rate is quite important uh , which means that we tend to label speech as as a silence . and , uh , i did n't analyze further yet , but i think it 's it may be due to the fricative sounds which may be in noisy condition maybe label labelled as silence . and it may also be due to the alignment because well , the reference alignment . because right now i just use an alignment obtained from from a system trained on channel zero . and i checked it a little bit but there might be alignment errors . um , yeah , e like the fact that the the models tend to align their first state on silence and their last state o on silence also . so the reference reference alignment would label as speech some silence frame before speech and after speech . this is something that we already noticed before when mmm , so this cus this could also explain , uh , the high miss rate maybe . uh professor g: and and this this curves are the average over the whole database , so . phd e: yeah . right . professor g: mmm . phd e: um yeah , and the different points of the curves are for five uh , thresholds on the probability { comment } uh from point three to point seven . phd b: so that threshold phd e: mm - hmm . yeah . phd b: ok . s ok so d the detection threshold is very phd e: so the v phd b: yeah , yeah . phd e: the vad ? yeah . there first , a threshold on the probability { comment } @ @ { comment } that puts all the values to zero or one . phd b: mmm . phd e: and then the median filtering . phd b: yeah , so the median filtering is fixed . you just change the threshold ? phd e: yeah . it 's fixed , phd b: yeah . phd e: yeah . mm - hmm . so , going from channel zero to channel one , uh , almost double the error rate . um , yeah . well , so it 's a reference performance that we can you know , if we want to to work on the vad , { comment } we can work on this basis phd h: phd b: mm - hmm . phd e: and phd b: ok . grad a: is this is this vad a mlp ? phd e: yeah . grad a: ok . how how big is it ? phd e: it 's a very big one . i do n't remember . phd b: so three three hundred and fifty inputs , phd e: m phd b: uh , six thousand hidden nodes and two outputs . t t grad a: ok . phd b: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: middle - sized one . phd b: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: phd e: yeah . uh , ppp . i do n't know , you have questions about that , or suggestions ? phd b: mmm . s so phd e: it seems the performance seems worse in finnish , which phd b: well , it 's not trained on finnish . phd e: uh phd h: it 's worse . phd e: it 's not trained on finnish , yeah . professor d: what 's it trained on ? phd b: i mean , the mlp 's not trained on finnish . professor d: right , what 's it trained on ? phd b: oh oh . sorry . uh , it 's italian ti - digits . professor d: yeah . oh , it 's trained on italian ? phd b: yeah . professor d: yeah , ok . phd e: mm - hmm . and phd b: that 's right . professor d: ok . phd e: and also there are like funny noises on finnish more than on italian . i mean , like music professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . yeah , the yeah , it 's true . phd e: and um so , yeah , we were looking at this . but for most of the noises , noises are um , i do n't know if we want to talk about that . but , well , the the `` car `` noises are below like five hundred hertz . and we were looking at the `` music `` utterances and in this case the noise is more about two thousand hertz . phd b: yeah . phd e: well , the music energy 's very low apparently . uh , uh , from zero to two two thousand hertz . so maybe just looking at this frequency range for from five hundred to two thousand would improve somewhat the vad phd b: mmm . phd e: and phd b: yeah . phd e: mmm phd b: so there are like some some s some parameters you wanted to use or something ? phd e: yeah , but yes . phd b: or yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . uh , the next , um oh , it 's there . professor g: so is the is the is the training is the training based on these labels files which you take as reference here ? phd e: yeah . professor g: wh - when you train the neural net y y you phd e: no . it 's not . it 's it was trained on some alignment obtained um , uh for the italian data , i think we trained the neural network on with embedded training . so re - estimation of the alignment using the neural network , i guess . that 's right ? phd b: yeah . we actually trained , uh , the on the italian training part . phd e: yeah . phd b: we we had another system with u phd e: so it was a f f a phonetic classification system for the italian aurora data . phd b: yeah . it must be somewhere . yeah . phd e: for the aurora data that it was trained on , it was different . like , for ti - digits you used a a previous system that you had , i guess . phd b: what no it yeah , yeah . that 's true . phd e: so the alignments from the different database that are used for training came from different system . phd b: syste yeah . phd e: then we put them tog together . well , you put them together and trained the vad on them . phd b: yeah . phd e: mmm . phd b: yeah . professor g: hmm . phd e: uh , but did you use channel did you align channel one also ? or phd b: i just took their entire italian training part . phd e: yeah . phd b: so it was both channel zero plus channel one . phd e: so di yeah . so the alignments might be wrong then on channel one , right ? phd b: on one . possible . phd e: so we might , phd b: we can do a realignment . phd e: yeah , phd b: that 's true . phd e: at least want to retrain on these alignments , which should be better because they come from close - talking microphone . professor g: yeah , the that was my idea . i mean , if if it ha if it is not the same labeling which is taking the spaces . phd b: yeah . phd e: ok . phd b: yeah , possible . phd e: yeah . professor g: mmm . phd b: i mean , it so the system phd e: yeah . phd b: so the vad was trained on maybe different set of labels for channel zero and channel one phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: and professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: was the alignments were w were different for s certainly different because they were independently trained . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: we did n't copy the channel zero alignments to channel one . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . phd e: yeah . phd b: but for the new alignments what you generated , you just copied the channel zero to channel one , right ? yeah . phd e: right . yeah . um . and eh , hhh actually when we look at at the vad , for some utterances it 's almost perfect , i mean , it just dropped one frame , the first frame of speech or so there are some utterances where it 's almost one hundred percent vad performance . professor g: hmm . phd e: uh , but yeah . mmm yep . so the next thing is um , i have the spreadsheet for three different system . but for this you only have to look right now on the speechdat - car performance uh , because i did n't test so i did n't test the spectral subtraction on ti - digits yet . uh , so you have three she sheets . one is the um proposal - one system . actually , it 's not exe exactly proposal - one . it 's the system that sunil just described . um , but with uh , wiener filtering from um , france telecom included . um , so this gives like fifty - seven point seven percent , uh , s uh , error rate reduction on the speechdat - car data . mmm , and then i have two sheets where it 's for a system where uh , so it 's again the same system . but in this case we have spectral subtraction with a maximum overestimation factor of two point five . uh , there is smoothing of the gain trajectory with some kind of uh , low - pass filter , which has forty milliseconds latency . and then , after subtraction um , i add a constant to the energies and i have two cases d where the first case is where the constant is twenty - five db below the mean speech energy and the other is thirty db below . um , and for these s two system we have like fifty - five point , uh , five - percent improvement , and fifty - eight point one . so again , it 's around fifty - six , fifty - seven . uh professor d: cuz i notice the ti - digits number is exactly the same for these last two ? phd e: yeah , because i did n't for the france telecom uh , spectral subtraction included in the our system , the ti - digits number are the right one , but not for the other system because i did n't test it yet this system , including with spectral subtraction on the ti - digits data . i just tested it on speechdat - car . professor d: ah ! so so that means the only thing professor g: mm - hmm . so so so these numbers are simply phd e: this , we have to yeah . phd b: but this number . professor d: yeah . professor g: yeah . professor d: so you so you just should look at that fifty - eight perc point o nine percent and so on . phd e: yes . professor g: ok . phd e: right . right . professor d: ok . good . phd e: mm - hmm . um , yeah . phd b: so this so by uh , by by reducing the noise a a decent threshold like minus thirty db , it 's like uh , you are like r r reducing the floor of the noisy regions , right ? professor g: s phd e: yeah . yeah . the floor is lower . um , phd b: uh - huh . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: i 'm sorry . so when you say minus twenty - five or minus thirty db , with respect to what ? phd e: to the average um , speech energy which is estimated on the world database . professor d: ok , so basically you 're creating a signal - to - noise ratio of twenty - five or thirty db ? phd e: yeah . professor d: uh r phd e: but it 's not professor g: i i i think what you do is this . phd e: it it 's professor g: i when when you have this , after you subtracted it , i mean , then you get something w w with this , uh , where you set the values to zero and then you simply add an additive constant again . phd e: yeah . professor g: so you shift it somehow . this this whole curve is shifted again . professor d: but did you do that before the thresholding to zero , phd e: right . it 's professor d: or ? phd e: but , it 's after the thresholding . professor g: professor d: oh , phd e: so , professor d: so you 'd really want to do it before , phd e: maybe professor d: right ? phd e: maybe we might do it before , professor d: yeah , because then the then you would have less of that phenomenon . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor d: i think . phd e: uh professor g: e hhh . phd e: yeah . professor d: c phd e: but still , when you do this and you take the log after that , it it reduce the the variance . professor d: yeah , it it right . phd e: but mmm , professor d: yeah , that will reduce the variance . that 'll help . but maybe if you does do it before you get less of these funny - looking things he 's drawing . professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: um , phd b: so before it 's like adding this , col to the to the o exi original professor g: but but phd e: we would professor d: right at the point where you 've done the subtraction . phd b: ok . professor d: um , essentially you 're adding a constant into everything . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: but the way stephane did it , it is exactly the way i have implemented in the phone , so . professor d: oh , yeah , better do it different , then . yeah . phd e: um . professor d: just you you just ta you just set it for a particular signal - to - noise ratio that you want ? phd e: yeah . professor g: yeah i i made s similar investigations like stephane did here , just uh , adding this constant and and looking how dependent is it on the value of the constant professor d: yeah . yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: and then , must choose them somehow to give on average the best results for a certain range of the signal - to - noise ratios . professor d: uh - huh . phd e: yeah . mm - hmm . professor g: so phd e: oh , it 's clear . i should have gi given other results . also it 's clear when you do n't add noise , it 's much worse . like , around five percent worse i guess . professor d: uh - huh . phd e: and if you add too much noise it get worse also . and it seems that right now this this is c a constant that does not depend on { comment } on anything that you can learn from the utterance . it 's just a constant noise addition . um . and i i think w w professor d: i i 'm sorry . then then i 'm confused . phd e: i think professor d: i thought you 're saying it does n't depend on the utterance but i thought you were adding an amount that was twenty - five db down from the signal energy . phd e: yeah , so the way i did that , { comment } i i just measured the average speech energy of the all the italian data . professor d: oh ! phd e: and then i i have i used this as mean speech energy . mm - hmm . professor d: oh , it 's just a constant amount over all . phd e: yeah . and phd b: ok . phd e: wha what i observed is that for italian and spanish , { comment } when you go to thirty and twenty - five db , { comment } uh it it 's good . phd b: oh . phd e: it stays in this range , it 's , uh , the p u well , the performance of the this algorithm is quite good . but for finnish , you have a degradation already when you go from thirty - five to thirty and then from thirty to twenty - five . and i have the feeling that maybe it 's because just finnish has a mean energy that 's lower than than the other databases . and due to this the thresholds should be professor d: yeah . phd e: the the a the noise addition should be lower professor d: but in i mean , in the real thing you 're not gon na be able to measure what people are doing over half an hour or an hour , or anything , right ? phd e: and professor d: so you have to come up with this number from something else . phd e: yeah . so professor g: uh , but you are not doing it now language dependent ? or ? phd e: it 's not . it 's just something that 's fixed . professor g: no . it 's overall . phd e: yeah . professor g: ok . phd e: mm - hmm . um professor d: but what he is doing language dependent is measuring what that number i reference is that he comes down twenty - five down from . phd e: yeah , so i g no . it no . professor d: no ? phd e: because i did it i started working on italian . i obtained this average energy professor d: yeah . phd e: and then i used this one . phd b: for all the languages . ok . phd e: yeah . professor d: so it 's sort of arbitrary . phd b: yeah . professor d: i mean , so if y if yeah . phd e: yep . professor d: yeah . phd e: um , yeah , so the next thing is to use this as as maybe initialization professor d: uh - huh . phd e: and then use something on - line . professor d: something more adaptive , phd e: but and i expect improvement at least in finnish because eh the way professor d: yeah . ok . phd e: well , um , for italian and spanish it 's th this value works good but not necessarily for finnish . mmm . but unfortunately there is , like , this forty millisecond latency and , um yeah , so i would try to somewhat reduce this @ @ . i already know that if i completely remove this latency , so . um , { comment } it um there is a three percent hit on italian . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: d does latency professor g: i phd b: sorry . go ahead . professor g: yeah . your your smoothing was @ @ { comment } uh , over this s so to say , the the factor of the wiener . and then it 's , uh what was it ? this phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: this smoothing , it was over the subtraction factor , so to say . phd e: it 's a smoothing over the the gain of the subtraction algorithm . professor g: was this done mm - hmm . and and you are looking into the future , into the past . phd e: right . professor g: and smoothing . phd e: so , to smooth this thing . professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: yeah . um professor g: and did did you try simply to smooth um to smooth the the t to to smooth stronger the the envelope ? phd e: um , no , i did not . professor g: mmm . phd e: mmm . professor g: because i mean , it should have a similar effect if you phd e: yeah . professor g: i mean , you you have now several stages of smoothing , so to say . you start up . as far as i remember you you smooth somehow the envelope , you smooth somehow the noise estimate , phd e: mm - hmm . mmm professor g: and and later on you smooth also this subtraction factor . phd e: uh , no , it 's it 's just the gain that 's smoothed actually phd b: uh , actually i d i do all the smoothing . phd e: but it 's smoothed professor g: ah . oh , it w it was you . phd b: yeah , yeah . phd e: uh yeah . professor g: yeah . phd e: yeah . no , in this case it 's just the gain . professor g: yeah . phd e: and professor g: uh - huh . phd e: but the way it 's done is that um , for low gain , there is this non nonlinear smoothing actually . for low gains um , i use the smoothed sm uh , smoothed version but for high gain @ @ { comment } it 's i do n't smooth . professor g: uh . mm - hmm . i just , uh it experience shows you , if if you do the the best is to do the smoo smoothing as early as possible . phd e: uh - huh . professor g: so w when you start up . i mean , you start up with the with the somehow with the noisy envelope . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: and , best is to smooth this somehow . phd e: mm - hmm . uh , yeah , i could try this . um . professor g: and phd b: so , before estimating the snr , @ @ smooth the envelope . professor g: yeah . yeah . uh - huh . phd e: mm - hmm . but yeah . then i i would need to find a way to like smooth less also when there is high energy . cuz i noticed that it it helps a little bit to s like smooth more during low energy portions and less during speech , professor g: yes , y phd e: because if you smooth then y you kind of distort the speech . professor g: yeah . yeah . phd e: um . professor g: right . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah , i think when w you you could do it in this way that you say , if you if i 'm you have somehow a noise estimate , phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: and , if you say i 'm i 'm with my envelope i 'm close to this noise estimate , phd e: yeah . professor g: then you have a bad signal - to - noise ratio and then you you would like to have a stronger smoothing . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: so you could you could base it on your estimation of the signal - to - noise ratio on your actual phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mmm . phd b: yeah , or some silence probability from the vad if you have phd e: um , yeah , but i do n't trust the current vad . so . phd b: yeah , uh , so not not right now maybe . phd e: well , maybe . professor d: the vad later will be much better . phd e: maybe . professor d: yeah . so . i see . phd f: so is that it ? phd e: uh , fff { comment } i think that 's it . yeah . uh . professor g: s so to summarize the performance of these , speechdat - car results is similar than than yours so to say . phd b: yeah , so the fifty - eight is like the be some fifty - six point phd e: yeah . professor g: y you have you have fifty - six point four phd b: yeah , that 's true . professor g: and and and dependent on this additive constant , it is s better or or worse . phd e: yeah . phd b: slightly better . phd e: mm - hmm . phd h: phd b: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah . phd e: and , yeah , i i i the condition where it 's better than your approach , it 's it just because maybe it 's better on well matched and that the weight on well matched is is bigger , phd b: yeah . yeah , you you caught up . phd e: because phd b: yep , that 's true . phd e: if you do n't weigh differently the different condition , you can see that your well , the win the two - stage wiener filtering is maybe better or phd b: yeah . phd e: it 's better for high mismatch , right ? phd b: yeah , it 's better for high mismatch . phd e: mm - hmm . but a little bit worse for well matched . phd b: so over all it gets , yeah , worse for the well matched condition , so y phd e: uh - huh . phd f: so we need to combine these two . phd b: uh , that 's that 's the best thing , is like the french telecom system is optimized for the well matched condition . they c phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . so they know that the weighting is good for the well matched , and so there 's everywhere the well matched 's s s performance is very good for the french telecom . phd e: yeah . professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: t we are we may also have to do something similar @ @ . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: well , our tradition here has always been to focus on the mismatched . phd b: um the professor d: cuz it 's more interesting . professor g: mu - my mine was it too , i mean . professor d: yeah . professor g: before i started working on this aurora . professor d: yeah . professor g: so . professor d: yeah . yeah . ok . phd f: carmen ? do you , uh phd h: well , i only say that the this is , a summary of the of all the vts experiments and say that the result in the last { comment } um , for italian the last experiment for italian , are bad . i make a mistake when i write . up at d i copy one of the bad result . phd b: so you phd h: and there . you know , this . um , well . if we put everything , we improve a lot u the spectral use of the vts but the final result are not still mmm , good like the wiener filter for example . i do n't know . maybe it 's @ @ { comment } it 's possible to to have the same result . phd b: that 's somewhere phd h: i do n't know exactly . mmm . because i have , mmm , { comment } worse result in medium mismatch and high mismatch . phd b: you s you have a better r yeah . you have some results that are good for the high mismatch . phd h: and yeah . i someti are more or less similar but but are worse . and still i do n't have the result for ti - digits . the program is training . maybe for this weekend i will have result ti - digits and i can complete that s like this . well . professor d: uh . right . phd h: one thing that i { comment } note are not here in this result but are speak are spoken before with sunil i i improve my result using clean lda filter . phd b: mm - hmm . professor d: mm - hmm . phd h: if i use , eh , the lda filter that are training with the noisy speech , that hurts the res my results . professor d: so what are these numbers here ? are these with the clean or with the noisy ? phd h: this is with the clean . professor d: ok . phd h: with the noise i have worse result , that if i does n't use it . professor d: uh - huh . phd h: but m that may be because with this technique we are using really really clean speech . the speech the { comment } representation that go to the htk is really clean speech because it 's from the dictionary , the code book and maybe from that . i do n't know . phd e: mm - hmm . phd h: because i think that you did some experiments using the two the two lda filter , clean and noi and noise , phd e: it 's phd h: and it does n't matter too much . phd e: um , yeah , i did that but it does n't matter on speechdat - car , but , it matters , uh , a lot on ti - digits . phd b: using the clean filter . phd h: it 's better to use clean . phd e: yeah , d uh , it 's much better when you we used the clean derived lda filter . phd h: mm - hmm . maybe you can do d also this . phd b: yeah . phd h: to use clean speech . phd b: yeah , i 'll try . phd e: uh , but , yeah , sunil in in your result it 's phd b: i i 'll try the cle no , i i my result is with the noisy noisy lda . phd e: it 's with the noisy one . yeah . phd b: yeah . professor d: oh ! phd b: it 's with the noisy . yeah . it 's it 's not the clean lda . phd e: so professor d: um phd b: it 's in in the front sheet , i have like like the summary . yeah . professor d: and and your result { comment } is with the phd e: it 's with the clean lda . phd b: oh . this is your results are all with the clean lda result ? phd h: yeah , with the clean lda . phd b: ok . @ @ . phd e: yeah . phd b: phd e: and in your case it 's all all noisy , phd h: is that the reason ? phd b: all noisy , yeah . phd e: yeah . but phd h: and phd b: uh phd e: yeah . phd b: uh phd e: but i observe my case it 's in , uh , uh , at least on speechdat - car it does n't matter but ti - digits it 's like two or three percent absolute , uh , { comment } better . phd b: on ti - digits this matters . absolute . uh professor d: so you really might wan na try the clean i think . phd e: so if phd b: yeah , i i i will have to look at it . yeah , that 's true . professor d: yeah . yeah , that could be sizeable right there . phd h: and this is everything . professor g: yeah . professor d: ok . professor g: maybe you you are leaving in in about two weeks carmen . no ? phd h: yeah . professor g: yeah . so i mean , if if if i would put it put on the head of a project mana manager i i i i would say , uh , um i mean there is not so much time left now . professor d: be my guest . professor g: i mean , if um , what what i would do is i i i would pick @ @ { comment } the best consolation , which you think , and c create create all the results for the whole database that you get to the final number as as sunil did it phd h: and prepare at the s professor g: and um and maybe also to to write somehow a document where you describe your approach , and what you have done . phd h: yeah , i was thinking to do that next week . professor d: yeah . professor g: yeah . professor d: yeah , i 'll i 'll borrow the head back and and agree . yeah , phd h: yeah , i wi i i will do that next week . professor d: that 's that 's right . in fact , actually i g i guess the , uh the spanish government , uh , requires that anyway . they want some kind of report from everybody who 's in the program . phd h: mm - hmm . professor d: so . and of course i 'd we 'd we 'd like to see it too . so , phd h: ok . professor d: yeah . phd f: so , um , what 's do you think we , uh , should do the digits or skip it ? or what are what do you think ? professor d: uh , we have them now ? phd f: yeah , got them . professor d: uh , why don why do n't we do it ? phd f: ok . professor d: just { comment } just take a minute . phd h: i can send yet . phd f: would you pass those down ? professor d: oh ! sorry . phd f: ok , um , so i guess i 'll go ahead . um , professor d: seat ? phd e: dave ? is it the channel , or the mike ? i do n't remember . it 's the mike ? professor d: mike ? phd e: it 's not four . phd h: this is date and time . no . on the channel , channel . professor g: what is this ? phd b: t phd f: ok , if you could just leave , um , your mike on top of your , uh , digit form i can fill in any information that 's missing . professor g: ok . phd f: that 's uh i did n't get a chance to fill them out ahead of time . yeah , we 're gon na have to fix that . uh , let 's see , it starts with one here , and then goes around and ends with nine here . grad a: seven . so i i 'm eight , phd f: so he 's eight , grad a: you 're seven . phd f: you 're seven , grad a: yeah .

the sri system was doing worse on the hub-five training set for mean subtraction . the model performed better on six seconds of training data rather than twelve seconds , but the improvement was only point three percent . the professor thought small differences were important for research but not as important in industry . one suggestion for further work was changing speech rate using the algorithm , though it came at the risk of degrading the data .

what did the professor think about speech rate algorithms ? </s> phd f: and we 're on . professor d: ok . might wan na close the door so that uh , stephane will phd f: i 'll get it . professor d: yeah phd f: hey dave ? could you go ahead and turn on , uh , stephane 's grad c: mm - hmm . professor d: so that 's the virtual stephane over there . phd f: ok . professor g: do you use a pc for recording ? or phd f: uh , yeah , a linux box . yeah . it 's got , uh , like sixteen channels going into it . professor g: uh - huh . uh - huh . the quality is quite good ? or ? phd f: mm - hmm . yeah , so far , it 's been pretty good . professor g: mm - hmm . professor d: yeah . so , uh , yeah the suggestion was to have these guys start to phd f: ok . why do n't you go ahead , dave ? grad c: ok . um , so , yeah , the this past week i 've been main mainly occupied with , um , getting some results , u from the sri system trained on this short hub - five training set for the mean subtraction method . and , um , i ran some tests last night . but , um , c the results are suspicious . um , it 's , um , cuz they 're the baseline results are worse than , um , andreas than results andreas got previously . and it could have something to do with , um phd f: that 's on digits ? grad c: that 's on digits . it c it it could h it could have something to do with , um , downsampling . phd f: hmm . grad c: that 's that 's worth looking into . um , d and , um , ap ap apart from that , i guess the the main thing i have t ta i have to talk is , um , where i 'm planning to go over the next week . um . so i 've been working on integrating this mean subtraction approach into the smartkom system . and there 's this question of , well , so , um , in my tests before with htk i found it worked it worked the best with about twelve seconds of data used to estimate the mean , but , we 'll often have less { comment } in the smartkom system . um . so i think we 'll use as much data as we have at a particular time , and we 'll we 'll concatenate utterances together , um , to get as much data as we possibly can from the user . but , um , there 's a question of how to set up the models . so um , we could train the models . if we think twelve seconds is ideal we could train the models using twelve seconds to calculate the mean , to mean subtract the training data . or we could , um , use some other amount . so like i did an experiment where i , um , was using six seconds in test , um , but , for i tried twelve seconds in train . and i tried , um , um , the same in train i 'm a i tried six seconds in train . and six seconds in train was about point three percent better . um , and um , it 's not clear to me yet whether that 's something significant . so i wan na do some tests and , um , actually make some plots of , um for a particular amount of data and test what happens if you vary the amount of data in train . phd f: mm - hmm . professor d: uh , guenter , i do n't know if you t followed this stuff but this is , uh , a uh , uh , long - term long - term window f f yeah . yeah , he you talked about it . professor g: yeah , we we spoke about it already , professor d: oh , ok . so you know what he 's doing . professor g: yeah . professor d: alright . grad c: y s so i was i actually ran the experiments mostly and i i was i was hoping to have the plots with me today . i just did n't get to it . but , um yeah , i wou i would be curious about people 's feedback on this cuz i 'm @ @ { comment } i p i think there are some i think it 's it 's kind of like a a bit of a tricky engineering problem . i 'm trying to figure out what 's the optimal way to set this up . so , um , i 'll try to make the plots and then put some postscript up on my on my web page . and i 'll mention it in my status report if people wan na take a look . professor d: you could clarify something for me . you 're saying point three percent , you take a point three percent hit , when the training and testing links are do n't match or something ? phd e: hello . professor d: is that what it is ? grad c: w well , it c professor d: or ? grad c: i i do n't think it it 's just for any mismatch you take a hit . professor d: yeah . grad c: i in some cases it might be u better to have a mismatch . like i think i saw something like like if you only have two seconds in test , or , um , maybe it was something like four seconds , you actually do a little better if you , um , train on six seconds than if you train on four seconds . professor d: yeah . right . grad c: um , but the case , uh with the point three percent hit was using six seconds in test , um , comparing train on twelve seconds { comment } versus train on six seconds . professor d: and which was worse ? grad c: the train on twelve seconds . professor d: ok . but point three percent , uh , w from what to what ? that 's point three percent grad c: on the the the accuracies w went from it was something vaguely like ninety - five point six accuracy , um , improved to ninety - five point nine wh when i professor d: so four point four to four point one . grad c: ok . professor d: so yeah . so about a about an eight percent , uh , seven or eight percent relative ? grad c: ok . professor d: uh , yeah . well , i think in a p you know , if if you were going for an evaluation system you 'd care . but if you were doing a live system that people were actually using nobody would notice . it 's uh , i think the thing is to get something that 's practical , that that you could really use . grad c: huh . that 's that 's interesting . alright , the e uh , i see your point . i guess i was thinking of it as , um , an interesting research problem . the how to g i was thinking that for the asru paper we could have a section saying , `` for smartkom , we we d in we tried this approach in , uh , interactive system `` , which i do n't think has been done before . professor d: yeah . mm - hmm . grad c: and and then there was two research questions from that . professor d: mm - hmm . grad c: and one is the k does it still work if you just use the past history ? professor d: mm - hmm . grad c: alright , and the other was this question of , um what i was just talking about now . so i guess that 's why i thought it was interesting . professor d: i mean , a short - time fft short - time cepstrum calculation , uh , mean u mean calculation work that people have in commercial systems , they do this all the time . they the they calculate it from previous utterances and then use it , you know . grad c: yeah , um . professor d: but but , uh , as you say , there has n't been that much with this long long - time , uh , spectra work . grad c: oh , o oh , ok . professor d: uh , grad c: so that 's that 's that 's standard . um professor d: yeah . pretty common . grad c: ok . professor d: yeah . um , but , u uh , yes . no , it is interesting . and the other thing is , i mean , there 's two sides to these really small , uh , gradations in performance . um , i mean , on the one hand in a practical system if something is , uh , four point four percent error , four point one percent error , people wo n't really tell be able to tell the difference . on the other hand , when you 're doing , uh , research , you may , eh you might find that the way that you build up a change from a ninety - five percent accurate system to a ninety - eight percent accurate system is through ten or twelve little things that you do that each are point three percent . so so the they they it 's i do n't mean to say that they 're they 're irrelevant . uh , they are relevant . but , um , i for a demo , you wo n't see it . grad c: mm - hmm . right . ok . professor d: yeah . grad c: and , um , let 's l let 's see . um , ok . and then there 's um , another thing i wan na start looking at , um , wi is , um , the choice of the analysis window length . so i 've just been using two seconds just because that 's what carlos did before . uh , i wrote to him asking about he chose the two seconds . and it seemed like he chose it a bit informally . so , um , with the with the htk set - up i should be able to do some experiments , on just varying that length , say between one and three seconds , in a few different reverberation conditions , um , say this room and also a few of the artificial impulse responses we have for reverberation , just , um , making some plots and seeing how they look . and , um , so , with the the sampling rate i was using , one second or two seconds or four seconds is at a power of two um , number of samples and , um , i 'll i 'll jus f for the ones in between i guess i 'll just zero - pad . professor d: mm - hmm . i guess one thing that might also be an issue , uh , cuz part of what you 're doing is you 're getting a a spectrum over a bunch of different kinds of speech sounds . um , and so it might matter how fast someone was talking for instance . grad c: oh . professor d: you know , if you if if if there 's a lot of phones in one second maybe you 'll get a a really good sampling of all these different things , and and , uh , on the other hand if someone 's talking slowly maybe you 'd need more . so grad c: huh . professor d: i do n't know if you have some samples of faster or slower speech but it might make a difference . i do n't know . grad c: uh , yeah , i do n't i do n't think the ti - digits data that i have , um , i is would be appropriate for that . professor d: yeah , probably not . yeah . grad c: but what do you what about if i w i fed it through some kind of , um , speech processing algorithm that changed the speech rate ? professor d: yeah , but then you 'll have the degradation of of , uh , whatever you do uh , added onto that . but maybe . yeah , maybe if you get something that sounds that that 's does a pretty job at that . grad c: yeah . well , uh , just if you think it 's worth looking into . professor d: you could imagine that . grad c: i mean , it it is getting a little away from reverberation . professor d: um , yeah . it 's just that you 're making a choice uh , i was thinking more from the system aspect , if you 're making a choice for smartkom , that that that it might be that it 's it c the optimal number could be different , depending on grad c: yeah . right . professor d: could be . i do n't know . grad c: and and th the third thing , um , uh , is , um , barry explained lda filtering to me yesterday . and so , um , mike shire in his thesis um , did a a series of experiments , um , training lda filters in d on different conditions . and you were interested in having me repeat this for for this mean subtraction approach ? is is that right ? or for these long analysis windows , i guess , is the right way to put it . professor d: i guess , the the the issue i was the general issue i was bringing up was that if you 're have a moving moving window , uh , a wa a a set of weights times things that , uh , move along , shift along in time , that you have in fact a linear time invariant filter . and you just happened to have picked a particular one by setting all the weights to be equal . and so the issue is what are some other filters that you could use , uh , in that sense of `` filter `` ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor d: and , um , as i was saying , i think the simplest thing to do is not to train anything , but just to do some sort of , uh , uh , hamming or hanning , uh , kind of window , kind of thing , grad c: right . mm - hmm . professor d: just sort of to de - emphasize the jarring . so i think that would sort of be the first thing to do . but then , yeah , the lda i uh , is interesting because it would sort of say well , suppose you actually trained this up to do the best you could by some criterion , what would the filter look like then ? grad c: uh - huh . professor d: uh , and , um , that 's sort of what we 're doing in this aur - aurora stuff . and , uh , it 's still not clear to me in the long run whether the best thing to do would be to do that or to have some stylized version of the filter that looks like these things you 've trained up , because you always have the problem that it 's trained up for one condition and it is n't quite right for another . so . uh that 's that 's why that 's why rasta filter has actually ended up lasting a long time , people still using it quite a bit , because y you do n't change it . so does n't get any worse . uh , grad c: huh . professor d: anyway . grad c: o ok . so , um , a actually i was just thinking about what i was asking about earlier , wi which is about having less than say twelve seconds in the smartkom system to do the mean subtraction . you said in systems where you use cepstral mean subtraction , they concatenate utterances and , do you know how they address this issue of , um , testing versus training ? can professor d: go ahead . professor g: i think what they do is they do it always on - line , i mean , that you just take what you have from the past , that you calculate the mean of this and subtract the mean . grad c: ok . um professor g: and then you can yeah , you you can increase your window whi while you get while you are getting more samples . grad c: ok , um , and , um , so so in tha in that case , wh what do they do when they 're t um , performing the cepstral mean subtraction on the training data ? so because you 'd have hours and hours of training data . so do they cut it off and start over ? at intervals ? or ? professor g: so do you have uh , you you mean you have files which are hours of hours long ? or ? grad c: oh , well , no . i guess not . but professor g: yeah . i mean , usually you have in the training set you have similar conditions , i mean , file lengths are , i guess the same order or in the same size as for test data , or are n't they ? grad c: ok . but it 's ok . so if someone 's interacting with the system , though , uh , morgan uh , morgan said that you would tend to , um , chain utterances together um , r professor d: well , i think what i was s i thought what i was saying was that , um , at any given point you are gon na start off with what you had from before . grad c: oh . professor d: from and so if you 're splitting things up into utterances so , for instance , in a dialogue system , { comment } where you 're gon na be asking , uh , you know , th for some information , there 's some initial th something . and , you know , the first time out you you might have some general average . but you you d you do n't have very much information yet . but at after they 've given one utterance you 've got something . you can compute your mean cepstra from that , grad c: mm - hmm . professor d: and then can use it for the next thing that they say , uh , so that , you know , the performance should be better that second time . um , and i think the heuristics of exactly how people handle that and how they handle their training i 'm sure vary from place to place . but i think the ideally , it seems to me anyway , that you you would wan na do the same thing in training as you do in test . but that 's that 's just , uh , a prejudice . and i think anybody working on this with some particular task would experiment . grad c: right . i g i guess the question i had was , um , amount of data e u was the amount of data that you 'd give it to , um update this estimate . because say you if you have say five thousand utterances in your training set , um , and you you keep the mean from the last utterance , by the time it gets to the five thousandth utterance professor d: no , but those are all different people with different i mean , i in y so for instance , in in the in a telephone task , these are different phone calls . so you do n't wan na @ @ { comment } chain it together from a from a different phone call . grad c: ok , so so so they would g s professor d: so it 's within speaker , within phone call , professor g: yeah . professor d: if it 's a dialogue system , it 's within whatever this characteristic you 're trying to get rid of is expected to be consistent over , professor g: hmm . grad c: r and it professor d: right ? grad c: right . ok , so you 'd you and so in training you would start over at at every new phone call or at every new speaker . yeah , professor d: yeah . grad c: ok . professor d: yeah . now , you know , maybe you 'd use something from the others just because at the beginning of a call you do n't know anything , and so you might have some kind of general thing that 's your best guess to start with . but so , s i i you know , a lot of these things are proprietary so we 're doing a little bit of guesswork here . i mean , what do comp what do people do who really face these problems in the field ? well , they have companies and they do n't tell other people exactly what they do . grad c: r right . professor d: but but i mean , when you the the hints that you get from what they when they talk about it are that they do they all do something like this . grad c: right , ok . i see . bec - because i so this smartkom task first off , it 's this tv and movie information system . professor d: yeah , but you might have somebody who 's using it grad c: and yeah . professor d: and then later you might have somebody else who 's using it . grad c: yeah . right . right . i i see . professor d: and so you 'd wan na set some grad c: i was i was about to say . so if if you ask it `` what what movies are on tv tonight ? `` , professor d: yeah . yeah . grad c: if i look at my wristwatch when i say that it 's about two seconds . the way i currently have the mean subtraction , um , set up , the the analysis window is two seconds . professor d: yeah . grad c: so what you just said , about what do you start with , raises a question of what do i start with then ? professor d: mm - hmm . grad c: i guess it because professor d: well , w ok , so in that situation , though , th maybe what 's a little different there , is i think you 're talking about there 's only one it it it also depends we 're getting a little off track here . grad c: oh , right . professor d: r but but but uh , there 's been some discussion about whether the work we 're doing in that project is gon na be for the kiosk or for the mobile or for both . and i think for this kind of discussion it matters . if it 's in the kiosk , then the physical situation is the same . it 's gon na you know , the exact interaction of the microphone 's gon na differ depending on the person and so forth . but at least the basic acoustics are gon na be the same . so f if it 's really in one kiosk , then i think that you could just chain together and and you know , as much as much speech as possible to because what you 're really trying to get at is the is the reverberation characteristic . grad c: yeah . professor d: but in in the case of the mobile , uh , { comment } presumably the acoustic 's changing all over the place . grad c: right . professor d: and in that case you probably do n't wan na have it be endless because you wan na have some sort of it 's it 's not a question of how long do you think it 's you can get an approximation to a stationary something , given that it 's not really stationary . grad c: right . right . professor d: so . professor g: hmm . grad c: and i i g i guess i s just started thinking of another question , which is , for for the very first frame , w what what do i do if i 'm if i take if i use that frame to calculate the mean , then i 'm just gon na get n nothing . professor d: mm - hmm . grad c: um , professor d: right . grad c: so i should probably have some kind of default mean for the first f couple of frames ? professor d: yeah . yeah . grad c: ok . professor d: yeah . or subtract nothing . i mean , it 's grad c: or subtract nothing . and and that 's that 's i guess that 's something that 's p people have figured out how to deal with in cepstral mean subtraction as well ? professor d: yeah , yeah . yeah , people do something . they they , uh , they have some , um , uh , in in cepstral mean subtraction , for short - term window analysis windows , as is usually done , you 're trying to get rid of some very general characteristic . and so , uh , if you have any other information about what a general kind of characteristic would be , then you you can do it there . phd f: you can also you can also reflect the data . so you take , uh you know , i 'm not sure how many frames you need . grad c: uh - huh . phd f: but you take that many from the front and flip it around to a as the negative value . professor d: yeah , that 's yeah . phd f: so you can always professor d: the other thing is that and and i i remember b b n doing this , is that if you have a multi - pass system , um , if the first pass ta it takes most of the computation , the second and the third pass could be very , very quick , grad c: mmm . professor d: just looking at a relatively small n small , uh , space of hypotheses . grad c: uh - huh . professor d: then you can do your first pass without any subtraction at all . grad c: oh . professor d: and then your second pass , uh , uh , eliminates those most of those hypotheses by , uh by having an improved improved version o of the analysis . grad c: ok . ok . professor d: so . grad c: ok . so that was all i had , for now . professor d: yeah . phd f: do you wan na go , barry ? grad a: yeah , ok . um , so for the past , uh , week an or two , i 've been just writing my , uh , formal thesis proposal . um , so i 'm taking this qualifier exam that 's coming up in two weeks . and i i finish writing a proposal and submit it to the committee . um . and uh , should i should i explain , uh , more about what what i 'm proposing to do , and s and stuff ? professor d: yes , briefly . phd f: yeah briefly . grad a: ok . um , so briefly , i 'm proposing to do a n a new p approach to speech recognition using um , a combination of , uh , multi - band ideas and ideas , um , { comment } about the uh , acoustic phonec phonetic approach to speech recognition . um , so i will be using these graphical models that um , that implement the multi - band approach to recognize a set of intermediate categories that might involve , uh , things like phonetic features or other other f feature things that are more closely related to the acoustic signal itself . um , and the hope in all of this is that by going multi - band and by going into these , um intermediate classifications , that we can get a system that 's more robust to to unseen noises , and situations like that . um , and so , some of the research issues involved in this are , um , { comment } one , what kind of intermediate categories do we need to classify ? um , another one is um , what what other types of structures in these multi - band graphical models should we consider in order to um , combine evidence from the sub - bands ? and , uh , the third one is how do we how do we merge all the , uh , information from the individual uh , multi - band classifiers to come up with word word recognition or or phone recognition things . um , so basically that 's that 's what i 've been doing . and , phd f: so you 've got two weeks , huh ? grad a: i got two weeks to brush up on d um , presentation stuff and , um , professor d: oh , i thought you were finishing your thesis in two weeks . grad a: but . oh , that too . professor d: yeah . grad a: yeah . phd f: are you gon na do any dry runs for your thing , grad a: yes . phd f: or are you just gon na grad a: yes . i , um i 'm i 'm gon na do some . would you be interested ? to help out ? phd f: sure . grad a: ok . phd f: sure . grad a: thanks . yeah . phd f: is that it ? grad a: that 's it . phd f: hhh . ok . uh . hhh . let 's see . so we 've got forty minutes left , and it seems like there 's a lot of material . an - any suggestions about where we where we should go next ? phd b: mmm , @ @ . phd f: uh . do you wan na go , sunil ? maybe we 'll just start with you . phd b: yeah . but i actually stuck most of this in our m last meeting with guenter . um , but i 'll just um , so the last week , uh , i showed some results with only speechdat - car which was like some fifty - six percent . and , uh , i did n't h i mean , i i found that the results i mean , i was n't getting that r results on the ti - digit . so i was like looking into `` why , what is wrong with the ti - digits ? `` . why why i was not getting it . and i found that , the noise estimation is a reason for the ti - digits to perform worse than the baseline . so , uh , i actually , picked th i mean , the first thing i did was i just scaled the noise estimate by a factor which is less than one to see if that because i found there are a lot of zeros in the spectrogram for the ti - digits when i used this approach . so the first thing i did was i just scaled the noise estimate . and i found so the the results that i 've shown here are the complete results using the new well , the n the new technique is nothing but the noise estimate scaled by a factor of point five . so it 's just an ad - hoc i mean , some intermediate result , because it 's not optimized for anything . so the results the trend the only trend i could see from those results was like the the p the current noise estimation or the , uh , noise composition scheme is working good for like the car noise type of thing . because i 've the only only p very good result in the ti - digits is the noise car noise condition for their test - a , which is like the best i could see that uh , for any non - stationary noise like `` babble `` or `` subway `` or any `` street `` , some `` restaurant `` noise , it 's like it 's not performing w very well . so , the so that that 's the first thing i c uh , i could make out from this stuff . and professor g: yeah , i think what is important to see is that there is a big difference between the training modes . phd b: yeah . professor g: uh - huh . if you have clean training , you get also a fifty percent improvement . phd b: yeah . professor g: but if you have muddy condition training you get only twenty percent . phd b: yeah . yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: uh , and in that twenty percent @ @ it 's very inconsistent across different noise conditions . professor g: mm - hmm . mmm . phd b: so i have like a forty - five percent for `` car noise `` and then there 's a minus five percent for the `` babble `` , professor g: mmm . phd b: and there 's this thirty - three for the `` station `` . and so it 's it 's not it 's not actually very consistent across . so . the only correlation between the speechdat - car and this performance is the c stationarity of the noise that is there in these conditions and the speechdat - car . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: and , uh so so the overall result is like in the last page , which is like forty - seven , which is still very imbalanced because there are like fifty - six percent on the speechdat - car and thirty - five percent on the ti - digits . and uh , ps the fifty - six percent is like comparable to what the french telecom gets , but the thirty - five percent is way off . professor d: i 'm sort of confused but this i 'm looking on the second page , phd b: oh , yep . professor d: and it says `` fifty percent `` looking in the lower right - hand corner , `` fifty percent relative performance `` . professor g: for the clean training . professor d: is that professor g: u and if you if you look professor d: is that fifty percent improvement ? phd b: yeah . for that 's for the clean training and the noisy testing for the ti - digits . professor g: yeah . professor d: so it 's improvement over the baseline mel cepstrum ? phd b: yeah . yeah . professor d: but the baseline mel cepstrum under those training does n't do as well i i 'm i 'm trying to understand why it 's it 's eighty percent that 's an accuracy number , i guess , phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah . professor d: right ? so that 's not as good as the one up above . phd b: no . professor d: but the fifty is better than the one up above , phd b: yeah . professor d: so i 'm confused . phd b: uh , actually the noise compensation whatever , uh , we are put in it works very well for the high mismatch condition . i mean , it 's consistent in the speechdat - car and in the clean training also it gives it but this fifty percent is is that the the high mismatch performance equivalent to the high mismatch performance in the speech . phd f: so n s so since the high mismatch performance is much worse to begin with , it 's easier to get a better relative improvement . phd b: yeah . yeah . i do . yeah , yeah . so by putting this noise phd e: yeah . yeah , if we look at the figures on the right , we see that the reference system is very bad . professor d: oh . phd b: yeah . the reference drops like a very fast professor d: oh , oh , oh , oh , oh , oh . phd e: like for clean clean training condition . professor d: i see . phd b: yeah . professor d: i see . phd e: nnn . professor d: this is this is ti digits { comment } we 're looking at ? phd b: yeah . yeah . oh professor d: this whole page is ti - digits phd b: oh . yeah . professor d: or this is ? phd b: it 's not written anywhere . yeah , it 's ti - digits . the first r spreadsheet is ti - digits . professor d: mmm . how does clean training do for the , uh , `` car `` professor g: hmm . phd b: the `` car `` ? professor d: stuff ? phd b: oh . still it still , uh that that 's still consistent . i mean , i get the best performance in the case of `` car `` , which is the third column in the a condition . professor d: no . i mean , this is added noise . i mean , this is ti - digits . i 'm sorry . i meant in in the in the , uh , multi - language , uh , uh , finnish and phd b: uh professor g: this is next next page . phd b: that 's the next next spreadsheet , is professor g: hmm . phd b: so that is the performance for italian , finnish and spanish . professor d: `` training condition `` oh , right . so `` clean `` corresponds to `` high mismatch `` . phd b: yeah . professor d: and `` increase `` , that 's increase e professor g: improvement . phd b: improvement . that 's `` percentage increase `` is the percentage improvement over the baseline . professor g: yeah . it 's it 's a phd b: so that 's professor d: which means decrease in word error rate ? phd b: yeah . professor d: ok , so `` percentage increase `` means decrease ? phd b: yeah , yeah . professor d: ok . professor g: yeah . the the w there was a very long discussion about this on on the on the , uh , amsterdam meeting . professor d: yeah . professor g: how to how to calculate it then . phd b: yeah . there 's there 's a professor g: i i i guess you are using finally this the scheme which they phd b: which is there in the spreadsheet . professor g: ok . phd b: i 'm not changing anything in there . professor g: mmm . professor d: alright . phd b: so . uh , yeah . so all the hi h m numbers are w very good , in the sense , they are better than what the french telecom gets . so . but the the only number that 's still i mean , which stephane also got in his result was that medium mismatch of the finnish , which is very which is a very strange situation where we used the we changed the proto for initializing the hmm i mean , this this is basically because it gets stuck in some local minimum in the training . that seventy - five point seven nine in the finnish mismatch which is that the eleven point nine six what we see . professor d: uh - huh . professor g: mmm . phd b: yeah . professor d: so we have to jiggle it somehow ? phd b: yeah so we start with that different proto and it becomes eighty - eight , which is like some fifty percent improvement . professor d: s wait a minute . start with a different what ? phd b: different prototype , which is like a different initialization for the , uh , s transition probabilities . it 's just that right now , the initialization is to stay more in the current state , which is point four point six , right ? yeah . phd e: yeah . phd b: and if it changes to point five point five , which is equal @ @ for transition and self loop where it becomes eighty - eight percent . phd f: well , but that involves mucking with the back - end , phd b: yeah . we ca n't do it . phd f: which is not allowed . phd b: yeah . phd e: mmm . phd f: yeah . phd b: so . professor g: i mean , it uh , like , i i i it is well known , this this medium match condition of the finnish data has some strange effects . phd b: very s phd e: yeah . phd b: it has a very few at uh , actually , c uh , tran i mean , words also . professor g: i mean , that is yeah , phd b: it 's a very , very small set , actually . professor g: that too . yeah . uh - huh . phd b: so there is professor g: there is a l a there is a lot of uh , there are a lot of utterances with music in with music in the background . phd b: yeah . yeah , yeah , yeah . yeah . professor g: mmm . professor d: uh - huh . phd b: yeah . it has some music also . i mean , very horrible music like like i know . professor d: so maybe for that one you need a much smarter vad ? mmm , phd b: uh professor d: if it 's music . phd b: so , that that 's the that 's about the results . and , uh , the summary is like ok . so there are the other thing what i tried was , which i explained in the last meeting , is using the channel zero for , uh , for both dropping and estimating the noise . and that 's like just to f n get a feel of how good it is . i guess the fifty - six percent improvement in the speechdat - car becomes like sixty - seven percent . like ten percent better . but that 's that 's not a that 's a cheating experiment . so . that 's just so , m w professor g: but the but the , uh , forty - seven point nine percent which you have now , that 's already a remarkable improvement in comparison to the first proposal . phd b: yeah . so we had forty - four percent in the first proposal . professor g: ok . phd b: yeah . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: we have f a big im so the major improvement that we got was in all the high mismatch cases , because all those numbers were in sixties and seventies because we never had any noise compensations . professor g: mmm . phd b: so that 's where the biggest improvement came up . not much in the well match and the medium match and ti - digits also right now . so this is still at three or four percent improvement over the first proposal . professor g: mmm . mmm . professor d: yeah , so that 's good . phd b: yeah . so . professor d: then if we can improve the noise estimation , then it should get better . professor g: yeah , i i started thinking about also i mean yeah , uh , i discovered the same problem when i started working on uh , on this aurora task almost two years ago , that you have the problem with this mulit a at the beginning we had only this multi condition training of the ti - digits . phd b: yeah . professor g: and , uh , i i found the same problem . just taking um , what we were used to u use , i mean , uh , some type of spectral subtraction , { comment } y you get even worse results than the basis phd b: yeah . yeah , professor g: and uh phd b: yeah . professor g: i i tried to find an explanation for it , professor d: mmm . professor g: so phd b: so . yes . stephane also has the same experience of using the spectral subtraction right ? professor g: mmm . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . so here here i mean , i found that it 's if i changed the noise estimate i could get an improvement . phd e: yeah . phd b: so that 's so it 's something which i can actually pursue , is the noise estimate . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: and professor g: yeah , i think what you do is in when when you have the the this multi - condition training mode , um then you have then you can train models for the speech , for the words , as well as for the pauses where you really have all information about the noise available . phd b: yeah . professor g: and it was surprising at the beginning it was not surprising to me that you get really the best results on doing it this way , i mean , in comparison to any type of training on clean data and any type of processing . but it was so , u u it it seems to be the best what wh wh what what we can do in this moment is multi - condition training . and every when we now start introducing some some noise reduction technique we we introduce also somehow artificial distortions . phd b: yeah . professor g: and these artificial distortions uh , i have the feeling that they are the reason why why we have the problems in this multi - condition training . that means the h m ms we trained , they are they are based on gaussians , phd b: yeah . professor g: and on modeling gaussians . and if you can i move a little bit with this ? yeah . and if we introduce now this this u spectral subtraction , or wiener filtering stuff so , usually what you have is maybe , um i 'm i 'm showing now an envelope um maybe you 'll f for this time . so usually you have maybe in clean condition you have something which looks like this . and if it is noisy it is somewhere here . and then you try to subtract it or wiener filter or whatever . and what you get is you have always these problems , that you have this these these these zeros in there . phd b: yeah . professor g: and you have to do something if you get these negative values . i mean , this is your noise estimate and you somehow subtract it or do whatever . uh , and then you have and then i think what you do is you introduce some some artificial distribution in this uh in in the models . i mean , i you you train it also this way but , i somehow there is u u there is no longer a a gaussian distribution . it is somehow a strange distribution which we introduce with these artificial distortions . and and i was thinking that that might be the reason why you get these problems in the especially in the multi - condition training mode . phd b: yeah , yeah . professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: th - that 's true . yeah the c the models are not complex enough to absorb that additional variability that you 're introducing . professor g: s phd f: thanks adam . professor g: yeah . yes . phd b: well , that 's yeah . so phd e: i also have the feeling that um , the reason ye why it does n't work is yeah , that the models are much are t um , not complex enough . because i actually i als always had a good experience with spectral subtraction , just a straight spectral subtraction algorithm when i was using neural networks , big neural networks , which maybe are more able to model strange distributions and professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: but yeah . then i tried the same exactly the same spectral subtraction algorithm on these aurora tasks and it simply does n't work . it 's even it , uh , hurts even . professor g: hmm . phd e: so . professor d: we probably should at some point here try the tandem the the the system - two kind of stuff with this , with the spectral subtraction for that reason . professor g: hmm . professor d: cuz again , it should do a transformation to a domain where it maybe looks more gaussian . professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: hmm . yeah , y i i was whe w w just yesterday when i was thinking about it um w what what we could try to do , or do about it i mean , if you if you get at this in this situation that you get this this negative values and you simply set it to zero or to a constant or whatever if we if we would use there a somehow , um a random generator which which has a certain distribution , u not a certain { comment } yeah , a special distribution we should see we we have to think about it . phd b: it 's professor g: and that we , so , introduce again some natural behavior in this trajectory . professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: mm - hmm . very different from speech . still , i mean , it should n't confuse the professor g: yeah , i mean , similar to what what you see really u in in the real um noisy situation . phd b: ok . mm - hmm . professor g: or i in the clean situation . but but somehow a a natural distribution . professor d: but is n't that s again sort of the idea of the additive thing , if it as as we had in the j stuff ? i mean , basically if if you have random data , um , in in the time domain , then when you look at the s spectrum it 's gon na be pretty flat . and and , professor g: mm - hmm . professor d: uh , so just add something everywhere rather than just in those places . it 's just a constant , right ? phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah . i think e yeah . it 's it 's just especially in these segments , i mean , you introduce , um , very artificial behavior . professor d: yeah . yeah . professor g: and professor d: well , see if you add something everywhere , it has almost no effect up up up on on top . and it and it and it has significant effect down there . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: that was , sort of the idea . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: hmm . yeah the that 's true . that those those regions are the cause for this @ @ those negative values or whatever you get . professor g: i mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . so . professor g: i mean , we we could trit uh , we we could think how w what what we could try . phd b: yeah . yeah , yeah . professor g: i mean , it it was just an idea . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: i mean , we professor d: i think when it 's noisy people should just speak up . professor g: to mmm . phd b: so phd e: if we look at the france telecom proposal , they use some kind of noise addition . they have a random number generator , right ? and they add noise on the trajectory of , uh , the log energy only , right ? professor d: oh , they do ! phd b: yep . professor d: oh . phd b: c - z c - zero and log energy also , yeah . phd e: yeah . um , but i do n't know how much effect it this have , but they do that . phd b: now ? phd e: yeah . phd b: oh . professor g: uh - huh . professor d: hmm . professor g: so it it it it it is l somehow similar to what phd e: i think because they have th log energy , yeah , and then just generate random number . they have some kind of mean and variance , and they add this number to to the log energy simply . um phd b: yeah the the log energy , the after the clean cleaning up . professor d: to the l phd b: so they add a random random noise to it . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: to the just the energy , or to the mel uh , to the mel filter ? phd b: no . on - only to the log energy . phd e: only yeah . professor d: oh . professor g: uh - huh . professor d: so it cuz i mean , i think this is most interesting for the mel filters . right ? professor g: uh - huh . professor d: or or f f one or the other . professor g: but but they do not apply filtering of the log energy or what phd b: like , uh i mean professor g: like like a spectral subtraction or phd b: no their filter is not m domain . s so they did filter their time signal professor g: yeah . i kn phd b: and then what @ @ u professor g: and then they calculate from this , the log energy phd b: yeah then after that it is s almost the same as the baseline prop system . professor g: or ? mm - hmm . phd b: and then the final log energy that they that they get , that to the to that they add some random noise . professor d: yeah , but again , that 's just log energy as opposed to filter bank energy . phd b: yeah . so it 's not the mel . professor g: mmm . phd b: you know , it 's not the mel filter bank output . professor d: yeah . phd b: these are log energy computed from the time s domain signal , professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: not from the mel filter banks . so did professor d: hmm . phd e: maybe it 's just a way to decrease the importance of this particular parameter in the in the world feature vector cu if you add noise to one of the parameters , you widen the distributions professor d: hmm . phd b: becomes flat . the variance , yeah , reduces , phd e: and phd b: so . hmm , yeah . phd e: eee - sss - uh . professor d: so it could reduce the dependence on the amplitude and so on . yeah . phd e: yeah . phd b: yeah . although professor d: maybe . phd e: mm - hmm . phd f: so is , uh is that about it ? phd b: uh , so the phd f: or ? phd b: ok . so the other thing is the i 'm just looking at a little bit on the delay issue where the delay of the system is like a hundred and eighty millisecond . so i just just tried another sk system i mean , another filter which i 've like shown at the end . which is very similar to the existing uh , filter . only uh , only thing is that the phase is is like a totally nonlinear phase because it 's a it 's not a symmetric filter anymore . phd f: this is for the lda ? phd b: yeah so so this this is like so this makes the delay like zero for lda because it 's completely causal . phd f: oh . phd b: so so i got actually just the results for the italian for that and that 's like so the fifty - one point o nine has become forty - eight point o six , which is like three percent relative degradation . so i have like the fifty - one point o nine phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: and so . i do n't know it f fares for the other conditions . so it 's just like it 's like a three percent relative degradation , with the professor g: but but is there is there a problem with the one hundred eighty milliseconds ? or ? phd b: u uh , may professor d: th - well , this is professor g: yeah , i mean , i talked to to uh , i ta uh , i talked , uh , about it with with hynek . i mean , there is professor d: this is so so , basically our our position is that , um , we should n't be unduly constraining the latency at this point because we 're all still experimenting with trying to make the performance better in the presence of noise . uh , there is a minority in that group who is a arguing who are arguing for um , uh , having a further constraining of the latency . so we 're s just continuing to keep aware of what the trade - offs are and , you know , what what do we gain from having longer or shorter latencies ? professor g: mmm . professor d: but since we always seem to at least get something out of longer latencies not being so constrained , we 're tending to go with that if we 're not told we ca n't do it . phd f: what where was the , um the smallest latency of all the systems last time ? professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: the french telecom . professor d: well , france telecom was was was very short latency professor g: it 's professor d: and they had a very good result . phd f: what what was it ? professor d: it was thirty - five . professor g: it was in the order of thirty milliseconds professor d: yeah . professor g: or phd f: thirteen ? professor d: th th professor g: thirty . phd f: thirty . phd b: thirty - four . professor d: yeah . professor g: yeah . professor d: yeah , so it 's possible to get very short latency . professor g: professor d: but , again , we 're the the approaches that we 're using are ones that take advantage of phd f: yeah . i was just curious about where we are compared to , you know , the shortest that people have done . professor g: but but i think this thirty milliseconds they they did it did not include the the delta calculation . phd b: yeah . yeah . yeah . professor g: and this is included now , phd b: yeah . yeah . professor g: you know ? phd b: so if they include the delta , it will be an additional forty millisecond . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: yeah . professor g: yeah . i i do n't remember the i th they were not using the htk delta ? phd b: no , they 're using a nine - point window , which is like a four on either side , professor g: nine - point . phd b: which is like professor g: ok . phd b: f so professor g: mmm . phd b: they did n't include that . professor d: yeah . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: so phd e: where does the comprish compression in decoding delay comes from ? phd f: ok . phd e: phd b: that 's the way the the the frames are packed , like you have to wait for one more frame to pack . because it 's the crc is computed for two frames always . professor d: well , that the they would need that forty milliseconds also . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: no . they actually changed the compression scheme altogether . professor d: right ? phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: so they have their own compression and decoding scheme and they i do n't know what they have . professor d: oh . phd b: but they have coded zero delay for that . because they ch i know they changed it , their compression . they have their own crc , their their own error correction mechanism . professor d: oh . phd b: so they do n't have to wait more than one more frame to know whether the current frame is in error . professor d: oh , ok . phd b: so they changed the whole thing so that there 's no delay for that compression and part also . professor d: hmm . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: even you have reported actually zero delay for the compression . i thought maybe you also have some different professor g: mmm . mmm . no , i think i i used this scheme as it was before . phd b: ok . ah . mm - hmm . phd f: ok , we 've got twenty minutes so we should probably try to move along . uh , did you wan na go next , stephane ? phd e: i can go next . yeah . mmm . professor d: oh . wait a minute . it 's phd e: it 's yeah , we have to take professor d: wait a minute . i think i 'm confused . phd e: well ok . professor d: alright . phd e: so you have w w one sheet ? this one is you do n't need it , alright . professor d: uh phd e: so you have to take the whole the five . there should be five sheets . professor d: ok , phd e: professor d: i have four now because i left one with dave because i thought i was dropping one off and passing the others on . so , no , we 're not . ok . phd b: thanks . phd h: please give me one . professor d: ah , we need one more over here . phd e: ok , maybe there 's not enough for everybody . phd f: i can share with barry . grad a: yeah . professor d: oh , ok . phd e: but can we look at this ? professor g: ok . grad c: yeah . phd e: so , yeah , there are two figures showing actually the , mmm , um , performance of the current vad . so it 's a n neural network based on plp parameters , uh , which estimate silence probabilities , and then i just put a median filtering on this to smooth the probabilities , right ? um i did n't use the the scheme that 's currently in the proposal because i do n't want to in the proposal well , in in the system we want to add like speech frame before every word and a little bit of of , uh , s a couple of frames after also . uh , but to estimate the performance of the vad , we do n't want to do that , because it would artificially increase the um the false alarm rate of speech detection . right ? um , so , there is u normally a figure for the finnish and one for italian . and maybe someone has two for the italian because i 'm missing one figure here . phd b: no . phd e: well well , whatever . uh yeah , so one surprising thing that we can notice first is that apparently the speech miss rate is uh , higher than the false alarm rate . so . it means professor g: so so what is the lower curve and the upper curve ? phd e: mm - hmm . yeah , there are two curves . one curve 's for the close - talking microphone , which is the lower curve . professor g: yeah . phd e: and the other one is for the distant microphone professor g: ah , ok . phd e: which has more noise so , it 's logical that it performs worse . so as i was saying , the miss rate is quite important uh , which means that we tend to label speech as as a silence . and , uh , i did n't analyze further yet , but i think it 's it may be due to the fricative sounds which may be in noisy condition maybe label labelled as silence . and it may also be due to the alignment because well , the reference alignment . because right now i just use an alignment obtained from from a system trained on channel zero . and i checked it a little bit but there might be alignment errors . um , yeah , e like the fact that the the models tend to align their first state on silence and their last state o on silence also . so the reference reference alignment would label as speech some silence frame before speech and after speech . this is something that we already noticed before when mmm , so this cus this could also explain , uh , the high miss rate maybe . uh professor g: and and this this curves are the average over the whole database , so . phd e: yeah . right . professor g: mmm . phd e: um yeah , and the different points of the curves are for five uh , thresholds on the probability { comment } uh from point three to point seven . phd b: so that threshold phd e: mm - hmm . yeah . phd b: ok . s ok so d the detection threshold is very phd e: so the v phd b: yeah , yeah . phd e: the vad ? yeah . there first , a threshold on the probability { comment } @ @ { comment } that puts all the values to zero or one . phd b: mmm . phd e: and then the median filtering . phd b: yeah , so the median filtering is fixed . you just change the threshold ? phd e: yeah . it 's fixed , phd b: yeah . phd e: yeah . mm - hmm . so , going from channel zero to channel one , uh , almost double the error rate . um , yeah . well , so it 's a reference performance that we can you know , if we want to to work on the vad , { comment } we can work on this basis phd h: phd b: mm - hmm . phd e: and phd b: ok . grad a: is this is this vad a mlp ? phd e: yeah . grad a: ok . how how big is it ? phd e: it 's a very big one . i do n't remember . phd b: so three three hundred and fifty inputs , phd e: m phd b: uh , six thousand hidden nodes and two outputs . t t grad a: ok . phd b: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: middle - sized one . phd b: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: phd e: yeah . uh , ppp . i do n't know , you have questions about that , or suggestions ? phd b: mmm . s so phd e: it seems the performance seems worse in finnish , which phd b: well , it 's not trained on finnish . phd e: uh phd h: it 's worse . phd e: it 's not trained on finnish , yeah . professor d: what 's it trained on ? phd b: i mean , the mlp 's not trained on finnish . professor d: right , what 's it trained on ? phd b: oh oh . sorry . uh , it 's italian ti - digits . professor d: yeah . oh , it 's trained on italian ? phd b: yeah . professor d: yeah , ok . phd e: mm - hmm . and phd b: that 's right . professor d: ok . phd e: and also there are like funny noises on finnish more than on italian . i mean , like music professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . yeah , the yeah , it 's true . phd e: and um so , yeah , we were looking at this . but for most of the noises , noises are um , i do n't know if we want to talk about that . but , well , the the `` car `` noises are below like five hundred hertz . and we were looking at the `` music `` utterances and in this case the noise is more about two thousand hertz . phd b: yeah . phd e: well , the music energy 's very low apparently . uh , uh , from zero to two two thousand hertz . so maybe just looking at this frequency range for from five hundred to two thousand would improve somewhat the vad phd b: mmm . phd e: and phd b: yeah . phd e: mmm phd b: so there are like some some s some parameters you wanted to use or something ? phd e: yeah , but yes . phd b: or yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . uh , the next , um oh , it 's there . professor g: so is the is the is the training is the training based on these labels files which you take as reference here ? phd e: yeah . professor g: wh - when you train the neural net y y you phd e: no . it 's not . it 's it was trained on some alignment obtained um , uh for the italian data , i think we trained the neural network on with embedded training . so re - estimation of the alignment using the neural network , i guess . that 's right ? phd b: yeah . we actually trained , uh , the on the italian training part . phd e: yeah . phd b: we we had another system with u phd e: so it was a f f a phonetic classification system for the italian aurora data . phd b: yeah . it must be somewhere . yeah . phd e: for the aurora data that it was trained on , it was different . like , for ti - digits you used a a previous system that you had , i guess . phd b: what no it yeah , yeah . that 's true . phd e: so the alignments from the different database that are used for training came from different system . phd b: syste yeah . phd e: then we put them tog together . well , you put them together and trained the vad on them . phd b: yeah . phd e: mmm . phd b: yeah . professor g: hmm . phd e: uh , but did you use channel did you align channel one also ? or phd b: i just took their entire italian training part . phd e: yeah . phd b: so it was both channel zero plus channel one . phd e: so di yeah . so the alignments might be wrong then on channel one , right ? phd b: on one . possible . phd e: so we might , phd b: we can do a realignment . phd e: yeah , phd b: that 's true . phd e: at least want to retrain on these alignments , which should be better because they come from close - talking microphone . professor g: yeah , the that was my idea . i mean , if if it ha if it is not the same labeling which is taking the spaces . phd b: yeah . phd e: ok . phd b: yeah , possible . phd e: yeah . professor g: mmm . phd b: i mean , it so the system phd e: yeah . phd b: so the vad was trained on maybe different set of labels for channel zero and channel one phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: and professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: was the alignments were w were different for s certainly different because they were independently trained . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: we did n't copy the channel zero alignments to channel one . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . phd e: yeah . phd b: but for the new alignments what you generated , you just copied the channel zero to channel one , right ? yeah . phd e: right . yeah . um . and eh , hhh actually when we look at at the vad , for some utterances it 's almost perfect , i mean , it just dropped one frame , the first frame of speech or so there are some utterances where it 's almost one hundred percent vad performance . professor g: hmm . phd e: uh , but yeah . mmm yep . so the next thing is um , i have the spreadsheet for three different system . but for this you only have to look right now on the speechdat - car performance uh , because i did n't test so i did n't test the spectral subtraction on ti - digits yet . uh , so you have three she sheets . one is the um proposal - one system . actually , it 's not exe exactly proposal - one . it 's the system that sunil just described . um , but with uh , wiener filtering from um , france telecom included . um , so this gives like fifty - seven point seven percent , uh , s uh , error rate reduction on the speechdat - car data . mmm , and then i have two sheets where it 's for a system where uh , so it 's again the same system . but in this case we have spectral subtraction with a maximum overestimation factor of two point five . uh , there is smoothing of the gain trajectory with some kind of uh , low - pass filter , which has forty milliseconds latency . and then , after subtraction um , i add a constant to the energies and i have two cases d where the first case is where the constant is twenty - five db below the mean speech energy and the other is thirty db below . um , and for these s two system we have like fifty - five point , uh , five - percent improvement , and fifty - eight point one . so again , it 's around fifty - six , fifty - seven . uh professor d: cuz i notice the ti - digits number is exactly the same for these last two ? phd e: yeah , because i did n't for the france telecom uh , spectral subtraction included in the our system , the ti - digits number are the right one , but not for the other system because i did n't test it yet this system , including with spectral subtraction on the ti - digits data . i just tested it on speechdat - car . professor d: ah ! so so that means the only thing professor g: mm - hmm . so so so these numbers are simply phd e: this , we have to yeah . phd b: but this number . professor d: yeah . professor g: yeah . professor d: so you so you just should look at that fifty - eight perc point o nine percent and so on . phd e: yes . professor g: ok . phd e: right . right . professor d: ok . good . phd e: mm - hmm . um , yeah . phd b: so this so by uh , by by reducing the noise a a decent threshold like minus thirty db , it 's like uh , you are like r r reducing the floor of the noisy regions , right ? professor g: s phd e: yeah . yeah . the floor is lower . um , phd b: uh - huh . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: i 'm sorry . so when you say minus twenty - five or minus thirty db , with respect to what ? phd e: to the average um , speech energy which is estimated on the world database . professor d: ok , so basically you 're creating a signal - to - noise ratio of twenty - five or thirty db ? phd e: yeah . professor d: uh r phd e: but it 's not professor g: i i i think what you do is this . phd e: it it 's professor g: i when when you have this , after you subtracted it , i mean , then you get something w w with this , uh , where you set the values to zero and then you simply add an additive constant again . phd e: yeah . professor g: so you shift it somehow . this this whole curve is shifted again . professor d: but did you do that before the thresholding to zero , phd e: right . it 's professor d: or ? phd e: but , it 's after the thresholding . professor g: professor d: oh , phd e: so , professor d: so you 'd really want to do it before , phd e: maybe professor d: right ? phd e: maybe we might do it before , professor d: yeah , because then the then you would have less of that phenomenon . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor d: i think . phd e: uh professor g: e hhh . phd e: yeah . professor d: c phd e: but still , when you do this and you take the log after that , it it reduce the the variance . professor d: yeah , it it right . phd e: but mmm , professor d: yeah , that will reduce the variance . that 'll help . but maybe if you does do it before you get less of these funny - looking things he 's drawing . professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: um , phd b: so before it 's like adding this , col to the to the o exi original professor g: but but phd e: we would professor d: right at the point where you 've done the subtraction . phd b: ok . professor d: um , essentially you 're adding a constant into everything . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: but the way stephane did it , it is exactly the way i have implemented in the phone , so . professor d: oh , yeah , better do it different , then . yeah . phd e: um . professor d: just you you just ta you just set it for a particular signal - to - noise ratio that you want ? phd e: yeah . professor g: yeah i i made s similar investigations like stephane did here , just uh , adding this constant and and looking how dependent is it on the value of the constant professor d: yeah . yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: and then , must choose them somehow to give on average the best results for a certain range of the signal - to - noise ratios . professor d: uh - huh . phd e: yeah . mm - hmm . professor g: so phd e: oh , it 's clear . i should have gi given other results . also it 's clear when you do n't add noise , it 's much worse . like , around five percent worse i guess . professor d: uh - huh . phd e: and if you add too much noise it get worse also . and it seems that right now this this is c a constant that does not depend on { comment } on anything that you can learn from the utterance . it 's just a constant noise addition . um . and i i think w w professor d: i i 'm sorry . then then i 'm confused . phd e: i think professor d: i thought you 're saying it does n't depend on the utterance but i thought you were adding an amount that was twenty - five db down from the signal energy . phd e: yeah , so the way i did that , { comment } i i just measured the average speech energy of the all the italian data . professor d: oh ! phd e: and then i i have i used this as mean speech energy . mm - hmm . professor d: oh , it 's just a constant amount over all . phd e: yeah . and phd b: ok . phd e: wha what i observed is that for italian and spanish , { comment } when you go to thirty and twenty - five db , { comment } uh it it 's good . phd b: oh . phd e: it stays in this range , it 's , uh , the p u well , the performance of the this algorithm is quite good . but for finnish , you have a degradation already when you go from thirty - five to thirty and then from thirty to twenty - five . and i have the feeling that maybe it 's because just finnish has a mean energy that 's lower than than the other databases . and due to this the thresholds should be professor d: yeah . phd e: the the a the noise addition should be lower professor d: but in i mean , in the real thing you 're not gon na be able to measure what people are doing over half an hour or an hour , or anything , right ? phd e: and professor d: so you have to come up with this number from something else . phd e: yeah . so professor g: uh , but you are not doing it now language dependent ? or ? phd e: it 's not . it 's just something that 's fixed . professor g: no . it 's overall . phd e: yeah . professor g: ok . phd e: mm - hmm . um professor d: but what he is doing language dependent is measuring what that number i reference is that he comes down twenty - five down from . phd e: yeah , so i g no . it no . professor d: no ? phd e: because i did it i started working on italian . i obtained this average energy professor d: yeah . phd e: and then i used this one . phd b: for all the languages . ok . phd e: yeah . professor d: so it 's sort of arbitrary . phd b: yeah . professor d: i mean , so if y if yeah . phd e: yep . professor d: yeah . phd e: um , yeah , so the next thing is to use this as as maybe initialization professor d: uh - huh . phd e: and then use something on - line . professor d: something more adaptive , phd e: but and i expect improvement at least in finnish because eh the way professor d: yeah . ok . phd e: well , um , for italian and spanish it 's th this value works good but not necessarily for finnish . mmm . but unfortunately there is , like , this forty millisecond latency and , um yeah , so i would try to somewhat reduce this @ @ . i already know that if i completely remove this latency , so . um , { comment } it um there is a three percent hit on italian . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: d does latency professor g: i phd b: sorry . go ahead . professor g: yeah . your your smoothing was @ @ { comment } uh , over this s so to say , the the factor of the wiener . and then it 's , uh what was it ? this phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: this smoothing , it was over the subtraction factor , so to say . phd e: it 's a smoothing over the the gain of the subtraction algorithm . professor g: was this done mm - hmm . and and you are looking into the future , into the past . phd e: right . professor g: and smoothing . phd e: so , to smooth this thing . professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: yeah . um professor g: and did did you try simply to smooth um to smooth the the t to to smooth stronger the the envelope ? phd e: um , no , i did not . professor g: mmm . phd e: mmm . professor g: because i mean , it should have a similar effect if you phd e: yeah . professor g: i mean , you you have now several stages of smoothing , so to say . you start up . as far as i remember you you smooth somehow the envelope , you smooth somehow the noise estimate , phd e: mm - hmm . mmm professor g: and and later on you smooth also this subtraction factor . phd e: uh , no , it 's it 's just the gain that 's smoothed actually phd b: uh , actually i d i do all the smoothing . phd e: but it 's smoothed professor g: ah . oh , it w it was you . phd b: yeah , yeah . phd e: uh yeah . professor g: yeah . phd e: yeah . no , in this case it 's just the gain . professor g: yeah . phd e: and professor g: uh - huh . phd e: but the way it 's done is that um , for low gain , there is this non nonlinear smoothing actually . for low gains um , i use the smoothed sm uh , smoothed version but for high gain @ @ { comment } it 's i do n't smooth . professor g: uh . mm - hmm . i just , uh it experience shows you , if if you do the the best is to do the smoo smoothing as early as possible . phd e: uh - huh . professor g: so w when you start up . i mean , you start up with the with the somehow with the noisy envelope . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: and , best is to smooth this somehow . phd e: mm - hmm . uh , yeah , i could try this . um . professor g: and phd b: so , before estimating the snr , @ @ smooth the envelope . professor g: yeah . yeah . uh - huh . phd e: mm - hmm . but yeah . then i i would need to find a way to like smooth less also when there is high energy . cuz i noticed that it it helps a little bit to s like smooth more during low energy portions and less during speech , professor g: yes , y phd e: because if you smooth then y you kind of distort the speech . professor g: yeah . yeah . phd e: um . professor g: right . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah , i think when w you you could do it in this way that you say , if you if i 'm you have somehow a noise estimate , phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: and , if you say i 'm i 'm with my envelope i 'm close to this noise estimate , phd e: yeah . professor g: then you have a bad signal - to - noise ratio and then you you would like to have a stronger smoothing . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: so you could you could base it on your estimation of the signal - to - noise ratio on your actual phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mmm . phd b: yeah , or some silence probability from the vad if you have phd e: um , yeah , but i do n't trust the current vad . so . phd b: yeah , uh , so not not right now maybe . phd e: well , maybe . professor d: the vad later will be much better . phd e: maybe . professor d: yeah . so . i see . phd f: so is that it ? phd e: uh , fff { comment } i think that 's it . yeah . uh . professor g: s so to summarize the performance of these , speechdat - car results is similar than than yours so to say . phd b: yeah , so the fifty - eight is like the be some fifty - six point phd e: yeah . professor g: y you have you have fifty - six point four phd b: yeah , that 's true . professor g: and and and dependent on this additive constant , it is s better or or worse . phd e: yeah . phd b: slightly better . phd e: mm - hmm . phd h: phd b: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah . phd e: and , yeah , i i i the condition where it 's better than your approach , it 's it just because maybe it 's better on well matched and that the weight on well matched is is bigger , phd b: yeah . yeah , you you caught up . phd e: because phd b: yep , that 's true . phd e: if you do n't weigh differently the different condition , you can see that your well , the win the two - stage wiener filtering is maybe better or phd b: yeah . phd e: it 's better for high mismatch , right ? phd b: yeah , it 's better for high mismatch . phd e: mm - hmm . but a little bit worse for well matched . phd b: so over all it gets , yeah , worse for the well matched condition , so y phd e: uh - huh . phd f: so we need to combine these two . phd b: uh , that 's that 's the best thing , is like the french telecom system is optimized for the well matched condition . they c phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . so they know that the weighting is good for the well matched , and so there 's everywhere the well matched 's s s performance is very good for the french telecom . phd e: yeah . professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: t we are we may also have to do something similar @ @ . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: well , our tradition here has always been to focus on the mismatched . phd b: um the professor d: cuz it 's more interesting . professor g: mu - my mine was it too , i mean . professor d: yeah . professor g: before i started working on this aurora . professor d: yeah . professor g: so . professor d: yeah . yeah . ok . phd f: carmen ? do you , uh phd h: well , i only say that the this is , a summary of the of all the vts experiments and say that the result in the last { comment } um , for italian the last experiment for italian , are bad . i make a mistake when i write . up at d i copy one of the bad result . phd b: so you phd h: and there . you know , this . um , well . if we put everything , we improve a lot u the spectral use of the vts but the final result are not still mmm , good like the wiener filter for example . i do n't know . maybe it 's @ @ { comment } it 's possible to to have the same result . phd b: that 's somewhere phd h: i do n't know exactly . mmm . because i have , mmm , { comment } worse result in medium mismatch and high mismatch . phd b: you s you have a better r yeah . you have some results that are good for the high mismatch . phd h: and yeah . i someti are more or less similar but but are worse . and still i do n't have the result for ti - digits . the program is training . maybe for this weekend i will have result ti - digits and i can complete that s like this . well . professor d: uh . right . phd h: one thing that i { comment } note are not here in this result but are speak are spoken before with sunil i i improve my result using clean lda filter . phd b: mm - hmm . professor d: mm - hmm . phd h: if i use , eh , the lda filter that are training with the noisy speech , that hurts the res my results . professor d: so what are these numbers here ? are these with the clean or with the noisy ? phd h: this is with the clean . professor d: ok . phd h: with the noise i have worse result , that if i does n't use it . professor d: uh - huh . phd h: but m that may be because with this technique we are using really really clean speech . the speech the { comment } representation that go to the htk is really clean speech because it 's from the dictionary , the code book and maybe from that . i do n't know . phd e: mm - hmm . phd h: because i think that you did some experiments using the two the two lda filter , clean and noi and noise , phd e: it 's phd h: and it does n't matter too much . phd e: um , yeah , i did that but it does n't matter on speechdat - car , but , it matters , uh , a lot on ti - digits . phd b: using the clean filter . phd h: it 's better to use clean . phd e: yeah , d uh , it 's much better when you we used the clean derived lda filter . phd h: mm - hmm . maybe you can do d also this . phd b: yeah . phd h: to use clean speech . phd b: yeah , i 'll try . phd e: uh , but , yeah , sunil in in your result it 's phd b: i i 'll try the cle no , i i my result is with the noisy noisy lda . phd e: it 's with the noisy one . yeah . phd b: yeah . professor d: oh ! phd b: it 's with the noisy . yeah . it 's it 's not the clean lda . phd e: so professor d: um phd b: it 's in in the front sheet , i have like like the summary . yeah . professor d: and and your result { comment } is with the phd e: it 's with the clean lda . phd b: oh . this is your results are all with the clean lda result ? phd h: yeah , with the clean lda . phd b: ok . @ @ . phd e: yeah . phd b: phd e: and in your case it 's all all noisy , phd h: is that the reason ? phd b: all noisy , yeah . phd e: yeah . but phd h: and phd b: uh phd e: yeah . phd b: uh phd e: but i observe my case it 's in , uh , uh , at least on speechdat - car it does n't matter but ti - digits it 's like two or three percent absolute , uh , { comment } better . phd b: on ti - digits this matters . absolute . uh professor d: so you really might wan na try the clean i think . phd e: so if phd b: yeah , i i i will have to look at it . yeah , that 's true . professor d: yeah . yeah , that could be sizeable right there . phd h: and this is everything . professor g: yeah . professor d: ok . professor g: maybe you you are leaving in in about two weeks carmen . no ? phd h: yeah . professor g: yeah . so i mean , if if if i would put it put on the head of a project mana manager i i i i would say , uh , um i mean there is not so much time left now . professor d: be my guest . professor g: i mean , if um , what what i would do is i i i would pick @ @ { comment } the best consolation , which you think , and c create create all the results for the whole database that you get to the final number as as sunil did it phd h: and prepare at the s professor g: and um and maybe also to to write somehow a document where you describe your approach , and what you have done . phd h: yeah , i was thinking to do that next week . professor d: yeah . professor g: yeah . professor d: yeah , i 'll i 'll borrow the head back and and agree . yeah , phd h: yeah , i wi i i will do that next week . professor d: that 's that 's right . in fact , actually i g i guess the , uh the spanish government , uh , requires that anyway . they want some kind of report from everybody who 's in the program . phd h: mm - hmm . professor d: so . and of course i 'd we 'd we 'd like to see it too . so , phd h: ok . professor d: yeah . phd f: so , um , what 's do you think we , uh , should do the digits or skip it ? or what are what do you think ? professor d: uh , we have them now ? phd f: yeah , got them . professor d: uh , why don why do n't we do it ? phd f: ok . professor d: just { comment } just take a minute . phd h: i can send yet . phd f: would you pass those down ? professor d: oh ! sorry . phd f: ok , um , so i guess i 'll go ahead . um , professor d: seat ? phd e: dave ? is it the channel , or the mike ? i do n't remember . it 's the mike ? professor d: mike ? phd e: it 's not four . phd h: this is date and time . no . on the channel , channel . professor g: what is this ? phd b: t phd f: ok , if you could just leave , um , your mike on top of your , uh , digit form i can fill in any information that 's missing . professor g: ok . phd f: that 's uh i did n't get a chance to fill them out ahead of time . yeah , we 're gon na have to fix that . uh , let 's see , it starts with one here , and then goes around and ends with nine here . grad a: seven . so i i 'm eight , phd f: so he 's eight , grad a: you 're seven . phd f: you 're seven , grad a: yeah .

the professor thought it mattered how fast someone was speaking since the model was getting a spectrum over different kinds of speech sounds . he was skeptical that changing speech rate was the solution , though he thought it was worth looking into . his solution was collecting more samplings of different phones for when people speak slower .

what did the team discuss about lda filters ? </s> phd f: and we 're on . professor d: ok . might wan na close the door so that uh , stephane will phd f: i 'll get it . professor d: yeah phd f: hey dave ? could you go ahead and turn on , uh , stephane 's grad c: mm - hmm . professor d: so that 's the virtual stephane over there . phd f: ok . professor g: do you use a pc for recording ? or phd f: uh , yeah , a linux box . yeah . it 's got , uh , like sixteen channels going into it . professor g: uh - huh . uh - huh . the quality is quite good ? or ? phd f: mm - hmm . yeah , so far , it 's been pretty good . professor g: mm - hmm . professor d: yeah . so , uh , yeah the suggestion was to have these guys start to phd f: ok . why do n't you go ahead , dave ? grad c: ok . um , so , yeah , the this past week i 've been main mainly occupied with , um , getting some results , u from the sri system trained on this short hub - five training set for the mean subtraction method . and , um , i ran some tests last night . but , um , c the results are suspicious . um , it 's , um , cuz they 're the baseline results are worse than , um , andreas than results andreas got previously . and it could have something to do with , um phd f: that 's on digits ? grad c: that 's on digits . it c it it could h it could have something to do with , um , downsampling . phd f: hmm . grad c: that 's that 's worth looking into . um , d and , um , ap ap apart from that , i guess the the main thing i have t ta i have to talk is , um , where i 'm planning to go over the next week . um . so i 've been working on integrating this mean subtraction approach into the smartkom system . and there 's this question of , well , so , um , in my tests before with htk i found it worked it worked the best with about twelve seconds of data used to estimate the mean , but , we 'll often have less { comment } in the smartkom system . um . so i think we 'll use as much data as we have at a particular time , and we 'll we 'll concatenate utterances together , um , to get as much data as we possibly can from the user . but , um , there 's a question of how to set up the models . so um , we could train the models . if we think twelve seconds is ideal we could train the models using twelve seconds to calculate the mean , to mean subtract the training data . or we could , um , use some other amount . so like i did an experiment where i , um , was using six seconds in test , um , but , for i tried twelve seconds in train . and i tried , um , um , the same in train i 'm a i tried six seconds in train . and six seconds in train was about point three percent better . um , and um , it 's not clear to me yet whether that 's something significant . so i wan na do some tests and , um , actually make some plots of , um for a particular amount of data and test what happens if you vary the amount of data in train . phd f: mm - hmm . professor d: uh , guenter , i do n't know if you t followed this stuff but this is , uh , a uh , uh , long - term long - term window f f yeah . yeah , he you talked about it . professor g: yeah , we we spoke about it already , professor d: oh , ok . so you know what he 's doing . professor g: yeah . professor d: alright . grad c: y s so i was i actually ran the experiments mostly and i i was i was hoping to have the plots with me today . i just did n't get to it . but , um yeah , i wou i would be curious about people 's feedback on this cuz i 'm @ @ { comment } i p i think there are some i think it 's it 's kind of like a a bit of a tricky engineering problem . i 'm trying to figure out what 's the optimal way to set this up . so , um , i 'll try to make the plots and then put some postscript up on my on my web page . and i 'll mention it in my status report if people wan na take a look . professor d: you could clarify something for me . you 're saying point three percent , you take a point three percent hit , when the training and testing links are do n't match or something ? phd e: hello . professor d: is that what it is ? grad c: w well , it c professor d: or ? grad c: i i do n't think it it 's just for any mismatch you take a hit . professor d: yeah . grad c: i in some cases it might be u better to have a mismatch . like i think i saw something like like if you only have two seconds in test , or , um , maybe it was something like four seconds , you actually do a little better if you , um , train on six seconds than if you train on four seconds . professor d: yeah . right . grad c: um , but the case , uh with the point three percent hit was using six seconds in test , um , comparing train on twelve seconds { comment } versus train on six seconds . professor d: and which was worse ? grad c: the train on twelve seconds . professor d: ok . but point three percent , uh , w from what to what ? that 's point three percent grad c: on the the the accuracies w went from it was something vaguely like ninety - five point six accuracy , um , improved to ninety - five point nine wh when i professor d: so four point four to four point one . grad c: ok . professor d: so yeah . so about a about an eight percent , uh , seven or eight percent relative ? grad c: ok . professor d: uh , yeah . well , i think in a p you know , if if you were going for an evaluation system you 'd care . but if you were doing a live system that people were actually using nobody would notice . it 's uh , i think the thing is to get something that 's practical , that that you could really use . grad c: huh . that 's that 's interesting . alright , the e uh , i see your point . i guess i was thinking of it as , um , an interesting research problem . the how to g i was thinking that for the asru paper we could have a section saying , `` for smartkom , we we d in we tried this approach in , uh , interactive system `` , which i do n't think has been done before . professor d: yeah . mm - hmm . grad c: and and then there was two research questions from that . professor d: mm - hmm . grad c: and one is the k does it still work if you just use the past history ? professor d: mm - hmm . grad c: alright , and the other was this question of , um what i was just talking about now . so i guess that 's why i thought it was interesting . professor d: i mean , a short - time fft short - time cepstrum calculation , uh , mean u mean calculation work that people have in commercial systems , they do this all the time . they the they calculate it from previous utterances and then use it , you know . grad c: yeah , um . professor d: but but , uh , as you say , there has n't been that much with this long long - time , uh , spectra work . grad c: oh , o oh , ok . professor d: uh , grad c: so that 's that 's that 's standard . um professor d: yeah . pretty common . grad c: ok . professor d: yeah . um , but , u uh , yes . no , it is interesting . and the other thing is , i mean , there 's two sides to these really small , uh , gradations in performance . um , i mean , on the one hand in a practical system if something is , uh , four point four percent error , four point one percent error , people wo n't really tell be able to tell the difference . on the other hand , when you 're doing , uh , research , you may , eh you might find that the way that you build up a change from a ninety - five percent accurate system to a ninety - eight percent accurate system is through ten or twelve little things that you do that each are point three percent . so so the they they it 's i do n't mean to say that they 're they 're irrelevant . uh , they are relevant . but , um , i for a demo , you wo n't see it . grad c: mm - hmm . right . ok . professor d: yeah . grad c: and , um , let 's l let 's see . um , ok . and then there 's um , another thing i wan na start looking at , um , wi is , um , the choice of the analysis window length . so i 've just been using two seconds just because that 's what carlos did before . uh , i wrote to him asking about he chose the two seconds . and it seemed like he chose it a bit informally . so , um , with the with the htk set - up i should be able to do some experiments , on just varying that length , say between one and three seconds , in a few different reverberation conditions , um , say this room and also a few of the artificial impulse responses we have for reverberation , just , um , making some plots and seeing how they look . and , um , so , with the the sampling rate i was using , one second or two seconds or four seconds is at a power of two um , number of samples and , um , i 'll i 'll jus f for the ones in between i guess i 'll just zero - pad . professor d: mm - hmm . i guess one thing that might also be an issue , uh , cuz part of what you 're doing is you 're getting a a spectrum over a bunch of different kinds of speech sounds . um , and so it might matter how fast someone was talking for instance . grad c: oh . professor d: you know , if you if if if there 's a lot of phones in one second maybe you 'll get a a really good sampling of all these different things , and and , uh , on the other hand if someone 's talking slowly maybe you 'd need more . so grad c: huh . professor d: i do n't know if you have some samples of faster or slower speech but it might make a difference . i do n't know . grad c: uh , yeah , i do n't i do n't think the ti - digits data that i have , um , i is would be appropriate for that . professor d: yeah , probably not . yeah . grad c: but what do you what about if i w i fed it through some kind of , um , speech processing algorithm that changed the speech rate ? professor d: yeah , but then you 'll have the degradation of of , uh , whatever you do uh , added onto that . but maybe . yeah , maybe if you get something that sounds that that 's does a pretty job at that . grad c: yeah . well , uh , just if you think it 's worth looking into . professor d: you could imagine that . grad c: i mean , it it is getting a little away from reverberation . professor d: um , yeah . it 's just that you 're making a choice uh , i was thinking more from the system aspect , if you 're making a choice for smartkom , that that that it might be that it 's it c the optimal number could be different , depending on grad c: yeah . right . professor d: could be . i do n't know . grad c: and and th the third thing , um , uh , is , um , barry explained lda filtering to me yesterday . and so , um , mike shire in his thesis um , did a a series of experiments , um , training lda filters in d on different conditions . and you were interested in having me repeat this for for this mean subtraction approach ? is is that right ? or for these long analysis windows , i guess , is the right way to put it . professor d: i guess , the the the issue i was the general issue i was bringing up was that if you 're have a moving moving window , uh , a wa a a set of weights times things that , uh , move along , shift along in time , that you have in fact a linear time invariant filter . and you just happened to have picked a particular one by setting all the weights to be equal . and so the issue is what are some other filters that you could use , uh , in that sense of `` filter `` ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor d: and , um , as i was saying , i think the simplest thing to do is not to train anything , but just to do some sort of , uh , uh , hamming or hanning , uh , kind of window , kind of thing , grad c: right . mm - hmm . professor d: just sort of to de - emphasize the jarring . so i think that would sort of be the first thing to do . but then , yeah , the lda i uh , is interesting because it would sort of say well , suppose you actually trained this up to do the best you could by some criterion , what would the filter look like then ? grad c: uh - huh . professor d: uh , and , um , that 's sort of what we 're doing in this aur - aurora stuff . and , uh , it 's still not clear to me in the long run whether the best thing to do would be to do that or to have some stylized version of the filter that looks like these things you 've trained up , because you always have the problem that it 's trained up for one condition and it is n't quite right for another . so . uh that 's that 's why that 's why rasta filter has actually ended up lasting a long time , people still using it quite a bit , because y you do n't change it . so does n't get any worse . uh , grad c: huh . professor d: anyway . grad c: o ok . so , um , a actually i was just thinking about what i was asking about earlier , wi which is about having less than say twelve seconds in the smartkom system to do the mean subtraction . you said in systems where you use cepstral mean subtraction , they concatenate utterances and , do you know how they address this issue of , um , testing versus training ? can professor d: go ahead . professor g: i think what they do is they do it always on - line , i mean , that you just take what you have from the past , that you calculate the mean of this and subtract the mean . grad c: ok . um professor g: and then you can yeah , you you can increase your window whi while you get while you are getting more samples . grad c: ok , um , and , um , so so in tha in that case , wh what do they do when they 're t um , performing the cepstral mean subtraction on the training data ? so because you 'd have hours and hours of training data . so do they cut it off and start over ? at intervals ? or ? professor g: so do you have uh , you you mean you have files which are hours of hours long ? or ? grad c: oh , well , no . i guess not . but professor g: yeah . i mean , usually you have in the training set you have similar conditions , i mean , file lengths are , i guess the same order or in the same size as for test data , or are n't they ? grad c: ok . but it 's ok . so if someone 's interacting with the system , though , uh , morgan uh , morgan said that you would tend to , um , chain utterances together um , r professor d: well , i think what i was s i thought what i was saying was that , um , at any given point you are gon na start off with what you had from before . grad c: oh . professor d: from and so if you 're splitting things up into utterances so , for instance , in a dialogue system , { comment } where you 're gon na be asking , uh , you know , th for some information , there 's some initial th something . and , you know , the first time out you you might have some general average . but you you d you do n't have very much information yet . but at after they 've given one utterance you 've got something . you can compute your mean cepstra from that , grad c: mm - hmm . professor d: and then can use it for the next thing that they say , uh , so that , you know , the performance should be better that second time . um , and i think the heuristics of exactly how people handle that and how they handle their training i 'm sure vary from place to place . but i think the ideally , it seems to me anyway , that you you would wan na do the same thing in training as you do in test . but that 's that 's just , uh , a prejudice . and i think anybody working on this with some particular task would experiment . grad c: right . i g i guess the question i had was , um , amount of data e u was the amount of data that you 'd give it to , um update this estimate . because say you if you have say five thousand utterances in your training set , um , and you you keep the mean from the last utterance , by the time it gets to the five thousandth utterance professor d: no , but those are all different people with different i mean , i in y so for instance , in in the in a telephone task , these are different phone calls . so you do n't wan na @ @ { comment } chain it together from a from a different phone call . grad c: ok , so so so they would g s professor d: so it 's within speaker , within phone call , professor g: yeah . professor d: if it 's a dialogue system , it 's within whatever this characteristic you 're trying to get rid of is expected to be consistent over , professor g: hmm . grad c: r and it professor d: right ? grad c: right . ok , so you 'd you and so in training you would start over at at every new phone call or at every new speaker . yeah , professor d: yeah . grad c: ok . professor d: yeah . now , you know , maybe you 'd use something from the others just because at the beginning of a call you do n't know anything , and so you might have some kind of general thing that 's your best guess to start with . but so , s i i you know , a lot of these things are proprietary so we 're doing a little bit of guesswork here . i mean , what do comp what do people do who really face these problems in the field ? well , they have companies and they do n't tell other people exactly what they do . grad c: r right . professor d: but but i mean , when you the the hints that you get from what they when they talk about it are that they do they all do something like this . grad c: right , ok . i see . bec - because i so this smartkom task first off , it 's this tv and movie information system . professor d: yeah , but you might have somebody who 's using it grad c: and yeah . professor d: and then later you might have somebody else who 's using it . grad c: yeah . right . right . i i see . professor d: and so you 'd wan na set some grad c: i was i was about to say . so if if you ask it `` what what movies are on tv tonight ? `` , professor d: yeah . yeah . grad c: if i look at my wristwatch when i say that it 's about two seconds . the way i currently have the mean subtraction , um , set up , the the analysis window is two seconds . professor d: yeah . grad c: so what you just said , about what do you start with , raises a question of what do i start with then ? professor d: mm - hmm . grad c: i guess it because professor d: well , w ok , so in that situation , though , th maybe what 's a little different there , is i think you 're talking about there 's only one it it it also depends we 're getting a little off track here . grad c: oh , right . professor d: r but but but uh , there 's been some discussion about whether the work we 're doing in that project is gon na be for the kiosk or for the mobile or for both . and i think for this kind of discussion it matters . if it 's in the kiosk , then the physical situation is the same . it 's gon na you know , the exact interaction of the microphone 's gon na differ depending on the person and so forth . but at least the basic acoustics are gon na be the same . so f if it 's really in one kiosk , then i think that you could just chain together and and you know , as much as much speech as possible to because what you 're really trying to get at is the is the reverberation characteristic . grad c: yeah . professor d: but in in the case of the mobile , uh , { comment } presumably the acoustic 's changing all over the place . grad c: right . professor d: and in that case you probably do n't wan na have it be endless because you wan na have some sort of it 's it 's not a question of how long do you think it 's you can get an approximation to a stationary something , given that it 's not really stationary . grad c: right . right . professor d: so . professor g: hmm . grad c: and i i g i guess i s just started thinking of another question , which is , for for the very first frame , w what what do i do if i 'm if i take if i use that frame to calculate the mean , then i 'm just gon na get n nothing . professor d: mm - hmm . grad c: um , professor d: right . grad c: so i should probably have some kind of default mean for the first f couple of frames ? professor d: yeah . yeah . grad c: ok . professor d: yeah . or subtract nothing . i mean , it 's grad c: or subtract nothing . and and that 's that 's i guess that 's something that 's p people have figured out how to deal with in cepstral mean subtraction as well ? professor d: yeah , yeah . yeah , people do something . they they , uh , they have some , um , uh , in in cepstral mean subtraction , for short - term window analysis windows , as is usually done , you 're trying to get rid of some very general characteristic . and so , uh , if you have any other information about what a general kind of characteristic would be , then you you can do it there . phd f: you can also you can also reflect the data . so you take , uh you know , i 'm not sure how many frames you need . grad c: uh - huh . phd f: but you take that many from the front and flip it around to a as the negative value . professor d: yeah , that 's yeah . phd f: so you can always professor d: the other thing is that and and i i remember b b n doing this , is that if you have a multi - pass system , um , if the first pass ta it takes most of the computation , the second and the third pass could be very , very quick , grad c: mmm . professor d: just looking at a relatively small n small , uh , space of hypotheses . grad c: uh - huh . professor d: then you can do your first pass without any subtraction at all . grad c: oh . professor d: and then your second pass , uh , uh , eliminates those most of those hypotheses by , uh by having an improved improved version o of the analysis . grad c: ok . ok . professor d: so . grad c: ok . so that was all i had , for now . professor d: yeah . phd f: do you wan na go , barry ? grad a: yeah , ok . um , so for the past , uh , week an or two , i 've been just writing my , uh , formal thesis proposal . um , so i 'm taking this qualifier exam that 's coming up in two weeks . and i i finish writing a proposal and submit it to the committee . um . and uh , should i should i explain , uh , more about what what i 'm proposing to do , and s and stuff ? professor d: yes , briefly . phd f: yeah briefly . grad a: ok . um , so briefly , i 'm proposing to do a n a new p approach to speech recognition using um , a combination of , uh , multi - band ideas and ideas , um , { comment } about the uh , acoustic phonec phonetic approach to speech recognition . um , so i will be using these graphical models that um , that implement the multi - band approach to recognize a set of intermediate categories that might involve , uh , things like phonetic features or other other f feature things that are more closely related to the acoustic signal itself . um , and the hope in all of this is that by going multi - band and by going into these , um intermediate classifications , that we can get a system that 's more robust to to unseen noises , and situations like that . um , and so , some of the research issues involved in this are , um , { comment } one , what kind of intermediate categories do we need to classify ? um , another one is um , what what other types of structures in these multi - band graphical models should we consider in order to um , combine evidence from the sub - bands ? and , uh , the third one is how do we how do we merge all the , uh , information from the individual uh , multi - band classifiers to come up with word word recognition or or phone recognition things . um , so basically that 's that 's what i 've been doing . and , phd f: so you 've got two weeks , huh ? grad a: i got two weeks to brush up on d um , presentation stuff and , um , professor d: oh , i thought you were finishing your thesis in two weeks . grad a: but . oh , that too . professor d: yeah . grad a: yeah . phd f: are you gon na do any dry runs for your thing , grad a: yes . phd f: or are you just gon na grad a: yes . i , um i 'm i 'm gon na do some . would you be interested ? to help out ? phd f: sure . grad a: ok . phd f: sure . grad a: thanks . yeah . phd f: is that it ? grad a: that 's it . phd f: hhh . ok . uh . hhh . let 's see . so we 've got forty minutes left , and it seems like there 's a lot of material . an - any suggestions about where we where we should go next ? phd b: mmm , @ @ . phd f: uh . do you wan na go , sunil ? maybe we 'll just start with you . phd b: yeah . but i actually stuck most of this in our m last meeting with guenter . um , but i 'll just um , so the last week , uh , i showed some results with only speechdat - car which was like some fifty - six percent . and , uh , i did n't h i mean , i i found that the results i mean , i was n't getting that r results on the ti - digit . so i was like looking into `` why , what is wrong with the ti - digits ? `` . why why i was not getting it . and i found that , the noise estimation is a reason for the ti - digits to perform worse than the baseline . so , uh , i actually , picked th i mean , the first thing i did was i just scaled the noise estimate by a factor which is less than one to see if that because i found there are a lot of zeros in the spectrogram for the ti - digits when i used this approach . so the first thing i did was i just scaled the noise estimate . and i found so the the results that i 've shown here are the complete results using the new well , the n the new technique is nothing but the noise estimate scaled by a factor of point five . so it 's just an ad - hoc i mean , some intermediate result , because it 's not optimized for anything . so the results the trend the only trend i could see from those results was like the the p the current noise estimation or the , uh , noise composition scheme is working good for like the car noise type of thing . because i 've the only only p very good result in the ti - digits is the noise car noise condition for their test - a , which is like the best i could see that uh , for any non - stationary noise like `` babble `` or `` subway `` or any `` street `` , some `` restaurant `` noise , it 's like it 's not performing w very well . so , the so that that 's the first thing i c uh , i could make out from this stuff . and professor g: yeah , i think what is important to see is that there is a big difference between the training modes . phd b: yeah . professor g: uh - huh . if you have clean training , you get also a fifty percent improvement . phd b: yeah . professor g: but if you have muddy condition training you get only twenty percent . phd b: yeah . yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: uh , and in that twenty percent @ @ it 's very inconsistent across different noise conditions . professor g: mm - hmm . mmm . phd b: so i have like a forty - five percent for `` car noise `` and then there 's a minus five percent for the `` babble `` , professor g: mmm . phd b: and there 's this thirty - three for the `` station `` . and so it 's it 's not it 's not actually very consistent across . so . the only correlation between the speechdat - car and this performance is the c stationarity of the noise that is there in these conditions and the speechdat - car . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: and , uh so so the overall result is like in the last page , which is like forty - seven , which is still very imbalanced because there are like fifty - six percent on the speechdat - car and thirty - five percent on the ti - digits . and uh , ps the fifty - six percent is like comparable to what the french telecom gets , but the thirty - five percent is way off . professor d: i 'm sort of confused but this i 'm looking on the second page , phd b: oh , yep . professor d: and it says `` fifty percent `` looking in the lower right - hand corner , `` fifty percent relative performance `` . professor g: for the clean training . professor d: is that professor g: u and if you if you look professor d: is that fifty percent improvement ? phd b: yeah . for that 's for the clean training and the noisy testing for the ti - digits . professor g: yeah . professor d: so it 's improvement over the baseline mel cepstrum ? phd b: yeah . yeah . professor d: but the baseline mel cepstrum under those training does n't do as well i i 'm i 'm trying to understand why it 's it 's eighty percent that 's an accuracy number , i guess , phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah . professor d: right ? so that 's not as good as the one up above . phd b: no . professor d: but the fifty is better than the one up above , phd b: yeah . professor d: so i 'm confused . phd b: uh , actually the noise compensation whatever , uh , we are put in it works very well for the high mismatch condition . i mean , it 's consistent in the speechdat - car and in the clean training also it gives it but this fifty percent is is that the the high mismatch performance equivalent to the high mismatch performance in the speech . phd f: so n s so since the high mismatch performance is much worse to begin with , it 's easier to get a better relative improvement . phd b: yeah . yeah . i do . yeah , yeah . so by putting this noise phd e: yeah . yeah , if we look at the figures on the right , we see that the reference system is very bad . professor d: oh . phd b: yeah . the reference drops like a very fast professor d: oh , oh , oh , oh , oh , oh . phd e: like for clean clean training condition . professor d: i see . phd b: yeah . professor d: i see . phd e: nnn . professor d: this is this is ti digits { comment } we 're looking at ? phd b: yeah . yeah . oh professor d: this whole page is ti - digits phd b: oh . yeah . professor d: or this is ? phd b: it 's not written anywhere . yeah , it 's ti - digits . the first r spreadsheet is ti - digits . professor d: mmm . how does clean training do for the , uh , `` car `` professor g: hmm . phd b: the `` car `` ? professor d: stuff ? phd b: oh . still it still , uh that that 's still consistent . i mean , i get the best performance in the case of `` car `` , which is the third column in the a condition . professor d: no . i mean , this is added noise . i mean , this is ti - digits . i 'm sorry . i meant in in the in the , uh , multi - language , uh , uh , finnish and phd b: uh professor g: this is next next page . phd b: that 's the next next spreadsheet , is professor g: hmm . phd b: so that is the performance for italian , finnish and spanish . professor d: `` training condition `` oh , right . so `` clean `` corresponds to `` high mismatch `` . phd b: yeah . professor d: and `` increase `` , that 's increase e professor g: improvement . phd b: improvement . that 's `` percentage increase `` is the percentage improvement over the baseline . professor g: yeah . it 's it 's a phd b: so that 's professor d: which means decrease in word error rate ? phd b: yeah . professor d: ok , so `` percentage increase `` means decrease ? phd b: yeah , yeah . professor d: ok . professor g: yeah . the the w there was a very long discussion about this on on the on the , uh , amsterdam meeting . professor d: yeah . professor g: how to how to calculate it then . phd b: yeah . there 's there 's a professor g: i i i guess you are using finally this the scheme which they phd b: which is there in the spreadsheet . professor g: ok . phd b: i 'm not changing anything in there . professor g: mmm . professor d: alright . phd b: so . uh , yeah . so all the hi h m numbers are w very good , in the sense , they are better than what the french telecom gets . so . but the the only number that 's still i mean , which stephane also got in his result was that medium mismatch of the finnish , which is very which is a very strange situation where we used the we changed the proto for initializing the hmm i mean , this this is basically because it gets stuck in some local minimum in the training . that seventy - five point seven nine in the finnish mismatch which is that the eleven point nine six what we see . professor d: uh - huh . professor g: mmm . phd b: yeah . professor d: so we have to jiggle it somehow ? phd b: yeah so we start with that different proto and it becomes eighty - eight , which is like some fifty percent improvement . professor d: s wait a minute . start with a different what ? phd b: different prototype , which is like a different initialization for the , uh , s transition probabilities . it 's just that right now , the initialization is to stay more in the current state , which is point four point six , right ? yeah . phd e: yeah . phd b: and if it changes to point five point five , which is equal @ @ for transition and self loop where it becomes eighty - eight percent . phd f: well , but that involves mucking with the back - end , phd b: yeah . we ca n't do it . phd f: which is not allowed . phd b: yeah . phd e: mmm . phd f: yeah . phd b: so . professor g: i mean , it uh , like , i i i it is well known , this this medium match condition of the finnish data has some strange effects . phd b: very s phd e: yeah . phd b: it has a very few at uh , actually , c uh , tran i mean , words also . professor g: i mean , that is yeah , phd b: it 's a very , very small set , actually . professor g: that too . yeah . uh - huh . phd b: so there is professor g: there is a l a there is a lot of uh , there are a lot of utterances with music in with music in the background . phd b: yeah . yeah , yeah , yeah . yeah . professor g: mmm . professor d: uh - huh . phd b: yeah . it has some music also . i mean , very horrible music like like i know . professor d: so maybe for that one you need a much smarter vad ? mmm , phd b: uh professor d: if it 's music . phd b: so , that that 's the that 's about the results . and , uh , the summary is like ok . so there are the other thing what i tried was , which i explained in the last meeting , is using the channel zero for , uh , for both dropping and estimating the noise . and that 's like just to f n get a feel of how good it is . i guess the fifty - six percent improvement in the speechdat - car becomes like sixty - seven percent . like ten percent better . but that 's that 's not a that 's a cheating experiment . so . that 's just so , m w professor g: but the but the , uh , forty - seven point nine percent which you have now , that 's already a remarkable improvement in comparison to the first proposal . phd b: yeah . so we had forty - four percent in the first proposal . professor g: ok . phd b: yeah . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: we have f a big im so the major improvement that we got was in all the high mismatch cases , because all those numbers were in sixties and seventies because we never had any noise compensations . professor g: mmm . phd b: so that 's where the biggest improvement came up . not much in the well match and the medium match and ti - digits also right now . so this is still at three or four percent improvement over the first proposal . professor g: mmm . mmm . professor d: yeah , so that 's good . phd b: yeah . so . professor d: then if we can improve the noise estimation , then it should get better . professor g: yeah , i i started thinking about also i mean yeah , uh , i discovered the same problem when i started working on uh , on this aurora task almost two years ago , that you have the problem with this mulit a at the beginning we had only this multi condition training of the ti - digits . phd b: yeah . professor g: and , uh , i i found the same problem . just taking um , what we were used to u use , i mean , uh , some type of spectral subtraction , { comment } y you get even worse results than the basis phd b: yeah . yeah , professor g: and uh phd b: yeah . professor g: i i tried to find an explanation for it , professor d: mmm . professor g: so phd b: so . yes . stephane also has the same experience of using the spectral subtraction right ? professor g: mmm . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . so here here i mean , i found that it 's if i changed the noise estimate i could get an improvement . phd e: yeah . phd b: so that 's so it 's something which i can actually pursue , is the noise estimate . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: and professor g: yeah , i think what you do is in when when you have the the this multi - condition training mode , um then you have then you can train models for the speech , for the words , as well as for the pauses where you really have all information about the noise available . phd b: yeah . professor g: and it was surprising at the beginning it was not surprising to me that you get really the best results on doing it this way , i mean , in comparison to any type of training on clean data and any type of processing . but it was so , u u it it seems to be the best what wh wh what what we can do in this moment is multi - condition training . and every when we now start introducing some some noise reduction technique we we introduce also somehow artificial distortions . phd b: yeah . professor g: and these artificial distortions uh , i have the feeling that they are the reason why why we have the problems in this multi - condition training . that means the h m ms we trained , they are they are based on gaussians , phd b: yeah . professor g: and on modeling gaussians . and if you can i move a little bit with this ? yeah . and if we introduce now this this u spectral subtraction , or wiener filtering stuff so , usually what you have is maybe , um i 'm i 'm showing now an envelope um maybe you 'll f for this time . so usually you have maybe in clean condition you have something which looks like this . and if it is noisy it is somewhere here . and then you try to subtract it or wiener filter or whatever . and what you get is you have always these problems , that you have this these these these zeros in there . phd b: yeah . professor g: and you have to do something if you get these negative values . i mean , this is your noise estimate and you somehow subtract it or do whatever . uh , and then you have and then i think what you do is you introduce some some artificial distribution in this uh in in the models . i mean , i you you train it also this way but , i somehow there is u u there is no longer a a gaussian distribution . it is somehow a strange distribution which we introduce with these artificial distortions . and and i was thinking that that might be the reason why you get these problems in the especially in the multi - condition training mode . phd b: yeah , yeah . professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: th - that 's true . yeah the c the models are not complex enough to absorb that additional variability that you 're introducing . professor g: s phd f: thanks adam . professor g: yeah . yes . phd b: well , that 's yeah . so phd e: i also have the feeling that um , the reason ye why it does n't work is yeah , that the models are much are t um , not complex enough . because i actually i als always had a good experience with spectral subtraction , just a straight spectral subtraction algorithm when i was using neural networks , big neural networks , which maybe are more able to model strange distributions and professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: but yeah . then i tried the same exactly the same spectral subtraction algorithm on these aurora tasks and it simply does n't work . it 's even it , uh , hurts even . professor g: hmm . phd e: so . professor d: we probably should at some point here try the tandem the the the system - two kind of stuff with this , with the spectral subtraction for that reason . professor g: hmm . professor d: cuz again , it should do a transformation to a domain where it maybe looks more gaussian . professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: hmm . yeah , y i i was whe w w just yesterday when i was thinking about it um w what what we could try to do , or do about it i mean , if you if you get at this in this situation that you get this this negative values and you simply set it to zero or to a constant or whatever if we if we would use there a somehow , um a random generator which which has a certain distribution , u not a certain { comment } yeah , a special distribution we should see we we have to think about it . phd b: it 's professor g: and that we , so , introduce again some natural behavior in this trajectory . professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: mm - hmm . very different from speech . still , i mean , it should n't confuse the professor g: yeah , i mean , similar to what what you see really u in in the real um noisy situation . phd b: ok . mm - hmm . professor g: or i in the clean situation . but but somehow a a natural distribution . professor d: but is n't that s again sort of the idea of the additive thing , if it as as we had in the j stuff ? i mean , basically if if you have random data , um , in in the time domain , then when you look at the s spectrum it 's gon na be pretty flat . and and , professor g: mm - hmm . professor d: uh , so just add something everywhere rather than just in those places . it 's just a constant , right ? phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah . i think e yeah . it 's it 's just especially in these segments , i mean , you introduce , um , very artificial behavior . professor d: yeah . yeah . professor g: and professor d: well , see if you add something everywhere , it has almost no effect up up up on on top . and it and it and it has significant effect down there . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: that was , sort of the idea . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: hmm . yeah the that 's true . that those those regions are the cause for this @ @ those negative values or whatever you get . professor g: i mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . so . professor g: i mean , we we could trit uh , we we could think how w what what we could try . phd b: yeah . yeah , yeah . professor g: i mean , it it was just an idea . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: i mean , we professor d: i think when it 's noisy people should just speak up . professor g: to mmm . phd b: so phd e: if we look at the france telecom proposal , they use some kind of noise addition . they have a random number generator , right ? and they add noise on the trajectory of , uh , the log energy only , right ? professor d: oh , they do ! phd b: yep . professor d: oh . phd b: c - z c - zero and log energy also , yeah . phd e: yeah . um , but i do n't know how much effect it this have , but they do that . phd b: now ? phd e: yeah . phd b: oh . professor g: uh - huh . professor d: hmm . professor g: so it it it it it is l somehow similar to what phd e: i think because they have th log energy , yeah , and then just generate random number . they have some kind of mean and variance , and they add this number to to the log energy simply . um phd b: yeah the the log energy , the after the clean cleaning up . professor d: to the l phd b: so they add a random random noise to it . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: to the just the energy , or to the mel uh , to the mel filter ? phd b: no . on - only to the log energy . phd e: only yeah . professor d: oh . professor g: uh - huh . professor d: so it cuz i mean , i think this is most interesting for the mel filters . right ? professor g: uh - huh . professor d: or or f f one or the other . professor g: but but they do not apply filtering of the log energy or what phd b: like , uh i mean professor g: like like a spectral subtraction or phd b: no their filter is not m domain . s so they did filter their time signal professor g: yeah . i kn phd b: and then what @ @ u professor g: and then they calculate from this , the log energy phd b: yeah then after that it is s almost the same as the baseline prop system . professor g: or ? mm - hmm . phd b: and then the final log energy that they that they get , that to the to that they add some random noise . professor d: yeah , but again , that 's just log energy as opposed to filter bank energy . phd b: yeah . so it 's not the mel . professor g: mmm . phd b: you know , it 's not the mel filter bank output . professor d: yeah . phd b: these are log energy computed from the time s domain signal , professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: not from the mel filter banks . so did professor d: hmm . phd e: maybe it 's just a way to decrease the importance of this particular parameter in the in the world feature vector cu if you add noise to one of the parameters , you widen the distributions professor d: hmm . phd b: becomes flat . the variance , yeah , reduces , phd e: and phd b: so . hmm , yeah . phd e: eee - sss - uh . professor d: so it could reduce the dependence on the amplitude and so on . yeah . phd e: yeah . phd b: yeah . although professor d: maybe . phd e: mm - hmm . phd f: so is , uh is that about it ? phd b: uh , so the phd f: or ? phd b: ok . so the other thing is the i 'm just looking at a little bit on the delay issue where the delay of the system is like a hundred and eighty millisecond . so i just just tried another sk system i mean , another filter which i 've like shown at the end . which is very similar to the existing uh , filter . only uh , only thing is that the phase is is like a totally nonlinear phase because it 's a it 's not a symmetric filter anymore . phd f: this is for the lda ? phd b: yeah so so this this is like so this makes the delay like zero for lda because it 's completely causal . phd f: oh . phd b: so so i got actually just the results for the italian for that and that 's like so the fifty - one point o nine has become forty - eight point o six , which is like three percent relative degradation . so i have like the fifty - one point o nine phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: and so . i do n't know it f fares for the other conditions . so it 's just like it 's like a three percent relative degradation , with the professor g: but but is there is there a problem with the one hundred eighty milliseconds ? or ? phd b: u uh , may professor d: th - well , this is professor g: yeah , i mean , i talked to to uh , i ta uh , i talked , uh , about it with with hynek . i mean , there is professor d: this is so so , basically our our position is that , um , we should n't be unduly constraining the latency at this point because we 're all still experimenting with trying to make the performance better in the presence of noise . uh , there is a minority in that group who is a arguing who are arguing for um , uh , having a further constraining of the latency . so we 're s just continuing to keep aware of what the trade - offs are and , you know , what what do we gain from having longer or shorter latencies ? professor g: mmm . professor d: but since we always seem to at least get something out of longer latencies not being so constrained , we 're tending to go with that if we 're not told we ca n't do it . phd f: what where was the , um the smallest latency of all the systems last time ? professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: the french telecom . professor d: well , france telecom was was was very short latency professor g: it 's professor d: and they had a very good result . phd f: what what was it ? professor d: it was thirty - five . professor g: it was in the order of thirty milliseconds professor d: yeah . professor g: or phd f: thirteen ? professor d: th th professor g: thirty . phd f: thirty . phd b: thirty - four . professor d: yeah . professor g: yeah . professor d: yeah , so it 's possible to get very short latency . professor g: professor d: but , again , we 're the the approaches that we 're using are ones that take advantage of phd f: yeah . i was just curious about where we are compared to , you know , the shortest that people have done . professor g: but but i think this thirty milliseconds they they did it did not include the the delta calculation . phd b: yeah . yeah . yeah . professor g: and this is included now , phd b: yeah . yeah . professor g: you know ? phd b: so if they include the delta , it will be an additional forty millisecond . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: yeah . professor g: yeah . i i do n't remember the i th they were not using the htk delta ? phd b: no , they 're using a nine - point window , which is like a four on either side , professor g: nine - point . phd b: which is like professor g: ok . phd b: f so professor g: mmm . phd b: they did n't include that . professor d: yeah . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: so phd e: where does the comprish compression in decoding delay comes from ? phd f: ok . phd e: phd b: that 's the way the the the frames are packed , like you have to wait for one more frame to pack . because it 's the crc is computed for two frames always . professor d: well , that the they would need that forty milliseconds also . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: no . they actually changed the compression scheme altogether . professor d: right ? phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: so they have their own compression and decoding scheme and they i do n't know what they have . professor d: oh . phd b: but they have coded zero delay for that . because they ch i know they changed it , their compression . they have their own crc , their their own error correction mechanism . professor d: oh . phd b: so they do n't have to wait more than one more frame to know whether the current frame is in error . professor d: oh , ok . phd b: so they changed the whole thing so that there 's no delay for that compression and part also . professor d: hmm . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: even you have reported actually zero delay for the compression . i thought maybe you also have some different professor g: mmm . mmm . no , i think i i used this scheme as it was before . phd b: ok . ah . mm - hmm . phd f: ok , we 've got twenty minutes so we should probably try to move along . uh , did you wan na go next , stephane ? phd e: i can go next . yeah . mmm . professor d: oh . wait a minute . it 's phd e: it 's yeah , we have to take professor d: wait a minute . i think i 'm confused . phd e: well ok . professor d: alright . phd e: so you have w w one sheet ? this one is you do n't need it , alright . professor d: uh phd e: so you have to take the whole the five . there should be five sheets . professor d: ok , phd e: professor d: i have four now because i left one with dave because i thought i was dropping one off and passing the others on . so , no , we 're not . ok . phd b: thanks . phd h: please give me one . professor d: ah , we need one more over here . phd e: ok , maybe there 's not enough for everybody . phd f: i can share with barry . grad a: yeah . professor d: oh , ok . phd e: but can we look at this ? professor g: ok . grad c: yeah . phd e: so , yeah , there are two figures showing actually the , mmm , um , performance of the current vad . so it 's a n neural network based on plp parameters , uh , which estimate silence probabilities , and then i just put a median filtering on this to smooth the probabilities , right ? um i did n't use the the scheme that 's currently in the proposal because i do n't want to in the proposal well , in in the system we want to add like speech frame before every word and a little bit of of , uh , s a couple of frames after also . uh , but to estimate the performance of the vad , we do n't want to do that , because it would artificially increase the um the false alarm rate of speech detection . right ? um , so , there is u normally a figure for the finnish and one for italian . and maybe someone has two for the italian because i 'm missing one figure here . phd b: no . phd e: well well , whatever . uh yeah , so one surprising thing that we can notice first is that apparently the speech miss rate is uh , higher than the false alarm rate . so . it means professor g: so so what is the lower curve and the upper curve ? phd e: mm - hmm . yeah , there are two curves . one curve 's for the close - talking microphone , which is the lower curve . professor g: yeah . phd e: and the other one is for the distant microphone professor g: ah , ok . phd e: which has more noise so , it 's logical that it performs worse . so as i was saying , the miss rate is quite important uh , which means that we tend to label speech as as a silence . and , uh , i did n't analyze further yet , but i think it 's it may be due to the fricative sounds which may be in noisy condition maybe label labelled as silence . and it may also be due to the alignment because well , the reference alignment . because right now i just use an alignment obtained from from a system trained on channel zero . and i checked it a little bit but there might be alignment errors . um , yeah , e like the fact that the the models tend to align their first state on silence and their last state o on silence also . so the reference reference alignment would label as speech some silence frame before speech and after speech . this is something that we already noticed before when mmm , so this cus this could also explain , uh , the high miss rate maybe . uh professor g: and and this this curves are the average over the whole database , so . phd e: yeah . right . professor g: mmm . phd e: um yeah , and the different points of the curves are for five uh , thresholds on the probability { comment } uh from point three to point seven . phd b: so that threshold phd e: mm - hmm . yeah . phd b: ok . s ok so d the detection threshold is very phd e: so the v phd b: yeah , yeah . phd e: the vad ? yeah . there first , a threshold on the probability { comment } @ @ { comment } that puts all the values to zero or one . phd b: mmm . phd e: and then the median filtering . phd b: yeah , so the median filtering is fixed . you just change the threshold ? phd e: yeah . it 's fixed , phd b: yeah . phd e: yeah . mm - hmm . so , going from channel zero to channel one , uh , almost double the error rate . um , yeah . well , so it 's a reference performance that we can you know , if we want to to work on the vad , { comment } we can work on this basis phd h: phd b: mm - hmm . phd e: and phd b: ok . grad a: is this is this vad a mlp ? phd e: yeah . grad a: ok . how how big is it ? phd e: it 's a very big one . i do n't remember . phd b: so three three hundred and fifty inputs , phd e: m phd b: uh , six thousand hidden nodes and two outputs . t t grad a: ok . phd b: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: middle - sized one . phd b: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: phd e: yeah . uh , ppp . i do n't know , you have questions about that , or suggestions ? phd b: mmm . s so phd e: it seems the performance seems worse in finnish , which phd b: well , it 's not trained on finnish . phd e: uh phd h: it 's worse . phd e: it 's not trained on finnish , yeah . professor d: what 's it trained on ? phd b: i mean , the mlp 's not trained on finnish . professor d: right , what 's it trained on ? phd b: oh oh . sorry . uh , it 's italian ti - digits . professor d: yeah . oh , it 's trained on italian ? phd b: yeah . professor d: yeah , ok . phd e: mm - hmm . and phd b: that 's right . professor d: ok . phd e: and also there are like funny noises on finnish more than on italian . i mean , like music professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . yeah , the yeah , it 's true . phd e: and um so , yeah , we were looking at this . but for most of the noises , noises are um , i do n't know if we want to talk about that . but , well , the the `` car `` noises are below like five hundred hertz . and we were looking at the `` music `` utterances and in this case the noise is more about two thousand hertz . phd b: yeah . phd e: well , the music energy 's very low apparently . uh , uh , from zero to two two thousand hertz . so maybe just looking at this frequency range for from five hundred to two thousand would improve somewhat the vad phd b: mmm . phd e: and phd b: yeah . phd e: mmm phd b: so there are like some some s some parameters you wanted to use or something ? phd e: yeah , but yes . phd b: or yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . uh , the next , um oh , it 's there . professor g: so is the is the is the training is the training based on these labels files which you take as reference here ? phd e: yeah . professor g: wh - when you train the neural net y y you phd e: no . it 's not . it 's it was trained on some alignment obtained um , uh for the italian data , i think we trained the neural network on with embedded training . so re - estimation of the alignment using the neural network , i guess . that 's right ? phd b: yeah . we actually trained , uh , the on the italian training part . phd e: yeah . phd b: we we had another system with u phd e: so it was a f f a phonetic classification system for the italian aurora data . phd b: yeah . it must be somewhere . yeah . phd e: for the aurora data that it was trained on , it was different . like , for ti - digits you used a a previous system that you had , i guess . phd b: what no it yeah , yeah . that 's true . phd e: so the alignments from the different database that are used for training came from different system . phd b: syste yeah . phd e: then we put them tog together . well , you put them together and trained the vad on them . phd b: yeah . phd e: mmm . phd b: yeah . professor g: hmm . phd e: uh , but did you use channel did you align channel one also ? or phd b: i just took their entire italian training part . phd e: yeah . phd b: so it was both channel zero plus channel one . phd e: so di yeah . so the alignments might be wrong then on channel one , right ? phd b: on one . possible . phd e: so we might , phd b: we can do a realignment . phd e: yeah , phd b: that 's true . phd e: at least want to retrain on these alignments , which should be better because they come from close - talking microphone . professor g: yeah , the that was my idea . i mean , if if it ha if it is not the same labeling which is taking the spaces . phd b: yeah . phd e: ok . phd b: yeah , possible . phd e: yeah . professor g: mmm . phd b: i mean , it so the system phd e: yeah . phd b: so the vad was trained on maybe different set of labels for channel zero and channel one phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: and professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: was the alignments were w were different for s certainly different because they were independently trained . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: we did n't copy the channel zero alignments to channel one . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . phd e: yeah . phd b: but for the new alignments what you generated , you just copied the channel zero to channel one , right ? yeah . phd e: right . yeah . um . and eh , hhh actually when we look at at the vad , for some utterances it 's almost perfect , i mean , it just dropped one frame , the first frame of speech or so there are some utterances where it 's almost one hundred percent vad performance . professor g: hmm . phd e: uh , but yeah . mmm yep . so the next thing is um , i have the spreadsheet for three different system . but for this you only have to look right now on the speechdat - car performance uh , because i did n't test so i did n't test the spectral subtraction on ti - digits yet . uh , so you have three she sheets . one is the um proposal - one system . actually , it 's not exe exactly proposal - one . it 's the system that sunil just described . um , but with uh , wiener filtering from um , france telecom included . um , so this gives like fifty - seven point seven percent , uh , s uh , error rate reduction on the speechdat - car data . mmm , and then i have two sheets where it 's for a system where uh , so it 's again the same system . but in this case we have spectral subtraction with a maximum overestimation factor of two point five . uh , there is smoothing of the gain trajectory with some kind of uh , low - pass filter , which has forty milliseconds latency . and then , after subtraction um , i add a constant to the energies and i have two cases d where the first case is where the constant is twenty - five db below the mean speech energy and the other is thirty db below . um , and for these s two system we have like fifty - five point , uh , five - percent improvement , and fifty - eight point one . so again , it 's around fifty - six , fifty - seven . uh professor d: cuz i notice the ti - digits number is exactly the same for these last two ? phd e: yeah , because i did n't for the france telecom uh , spectral subtraction included in the our system , the ti - digits number are the right one , but not for the other system because i did n't test it yet this system , including with spectral subtraction on the ti - digits data . i just tested it on speechdat - car . professor d: ah ! so so that means the only thing professor g: mm - hmm . so so so these numbers are simply phd e: this , we have to yeah . phd b: but this number . professor d: yeah . professor g: yeah . professor d: so you so you just should look at that fifty - eight perc point o nine percent and so on . phd e: yes . professor g: ok . phd e: right . right . professor d: ok . good . phd e: mm - hmm . um , yeah . phd b: so this so by uh , by by reducing the noise a a decent threshold like minus thirty db , it 's like uh , you are like r r reducing the floor of the noisy regions , right ? professor g: s phd e: yeah . yeah . the floor is lower . um , phd b: uh - huh . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: i 'm sorry . so when you say minus twenty - five or minus thirty db , with respect to what ? phd e: to the average um , speech energy which is estimated on the world database . professor d: ok , so basically you 're creating a signal - to - noise ratio of twenty - five or thirty db ? phd e: yeah . professor d: uh r phd e: but it 's not professor g: i i i think what you do is this . phd e: it it 's professor g: i when when you have this , after you subtracted it , i mean , then you get something w w with this , uh , where you set the values to zero and then you simply add an additive constant again . phd e: yeah . professor g: so you shift it somehow . this this whole curve is shifted again . professor d: but did you do that before the thresholding to zero , phd e: right . it 's professor d: or ? phd e: but , it 's after the thresholding . professor g: professor d: oh , phd e: so , professor d: so you 'd really want to do it before , phd e: maybe professor d: right ? phd e: maybe we might do it before , professor d: yeah , because then the then you would have less of that phenomenon . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor d: i think . phd e: uh professor g: e hhh . phd e: yeah . professor d: c phd e: but still , when you do this and you take the log after that , it it reduce the the variance . professor d: yeah , it it right . phd e: but mmm , professor d: yeah , that will reduce the variance . that 'll help . but maybe if you does do it before you get less of these funny - looking things he 's drawing . professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: um , phd b: so before it 's like adding this , col to the to the o exi original professor g: but but phd e: we would professor d: right at the point where you 've done the subtraction . phd b: ok . professor d: um , essentially you 're adding a constant into everything . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: but the way stephane did it , it is exactly the way i have implemented in the phone , so . professor d: oh , yeah , better do it different , then . yeah . phd e: um . professor d: just you you just ta you just set it for a particular signal - to - noise ratio that you want ? phd e: yeah . professor g: yeah i i made s similar investigations like stephane did here , just uh , adding this constant and and looking how dependent is it on the value of the constant professor d: yeah . yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: and then , must choose them somehow to give on average the best results for a certain range of the signal - to - noise ratios . professor d: uh - huh . phd e: yeah . mm - hmm . professor g: so phd e: oh , it 's clear . i should have gi given other results . also it 's clear when you do n't add noise , it 's much worse . like , around five percent worse i guess . professor d: uh - huh . phd e: and if you add too much noise it get worse also . and it seems that right now this this is c a constant that does not depend on { comment } on anything that you can learn from the utterance . it 's just a constant noise addition . um . and i i think w w professor d: i i 'm sorry . then then i 'm confused . phd e: i think professor d: i thought you 're saying it does n't depend on the utterance but i thought you were adding an amount that was twenty - five db down from the signal energy . phd e: yeah , so the way i did that , { comment } i i just measured the average speech energy of the all the italian data . professor d: oh ! phd e: and then i i have i used this as mean speech energy . mm - hmm . professor d: oh , it 's just a constant amount over all . phd e: yeah . and phd b: ok . phd e: wha what i observed is that for italian and spanish , { comment } when you go to thirty and twenty - five db , { comment } uh it it 's good . phd b: oh . phd e: it stays in this range , it 's , uh , the p u well , the performance of the this algorithm is quite good . but for finnish , you have a degradation already when you go from thirty - five to thirty and then from thirty to twenty - five . and i have the feeling that maybe it 's because just finnish has a mean energy that 's lower than than the other databases . and due to this the thresholds should be professor d: yeah . phd e: the the a the noise addition should be lower professor d: but in i mean , in the real thing you 're not gon na be able to measure what people are doing over half an hour or an hour , or anything , right ? phd e: and professor d: so you have to come up with this number from something else . phd e: yeah . so professor g: uh , but you are not doing it now language dependent ? or ? phd e: it 's not . it 's just something that 's fixed . professor g: no . it 's overall . phd e: yeah . professor g: ok . phd e: mm - hmm . um professor d: but what he is doing language dependent is measuring what that number i reference is that he comes down twenty - five down from . phd e: yeah , so i g no . it no . professor d: no ? phd e: because i did it i started working on italian . i obtained this average energy professor d: yeah . phd e: and then i used this one . phd b: for all the languages . ok . phd e: yeah . professor d: so it 's sort of arbitrary . phd b: yeah . professor d: i mean , so if y if yeah . phd e: yep . professor d: yeah . phd e: um , yeah , so the next thing is to use this as as maybe initialization professor d: uh - huh . phd e: and then use something on - line . professor d: something more adaptive , phd e: but and i expect improvement at least in finnish because eh the way professor d: yeah . ok . phd e: well , um , for italian and spanish it 's th this value works good but not necessarily for finnish . mmm . but unfortunately there is , like , this forty millisecond latency and , um yeah , so i would try to somewhat reduce this @ @ . i already know that if i completely remove this latency , so . um , { comment } it um there is a three percent hit on italian . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: d does latency professor g: i phd b: sorry . go ahead . professor g: yeah . your your smoothing was @ @ { comment } uh , over this s so to say , the the factor of the wiener . and then it 's , uh what was it ? this phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: this smoothing , it was over the subtraction factor , so to say . phd e: it 's a smoothing over the the gain of the subtraction algorithm . professor g: was this done mm - hmm . and and you are looking into the future , into the past . phd e: right . professor g: and smoothing . phd e: so , to smooth this thing . professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: yeah . um professor g: and did did you try simply to smooth um to smooth the the t to to smooth stronger the the envelope ? phd e: um , no , i did not . professor g: mmm . phd e: mmm . professor g: because i mean , it should have a similar effect if you phd e: yeah . professor g: i mean , you you have now several stages of smoothing , so to say . you start up . as far as i remember you you smooth somehow the envelope , you smooth somehow the noise estimate , phd e: mm - hmm . mmm professor g: and and later on you smooth also this subtraction factor . phd e: uh , no , it 's it 's just the gain that 's smoothed actually phd b: uh , actually i d i do all the smoothing . phd e: but it 's smoothed professor g: ah . oh , it w it was you . phd b: yeah , yeah . phd e: uh yeah . professor g: yeah . phd e: yeah . no , in this case it 's just the gain . professor g: yeah . phd e: and professor g: uh - huh . phd e: but the way it 's done is that um , for low gain , there is this non nonlinear smoothing actually . for low gains um , i use the smoothed sm uh , smoothed version but for high gain @ @ { comment } it 's i do n't smooth . professor g: uh . mm - hmm . i just , uh it experience shows you , if if you do the the best is to do the smoo smoothing as early as possible . phd e: uh - huh . professor g: so w when you start up . i mean , you start up with the with the somehow with the noisy envelope . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: and , best is to smooth this somehow . phd e: mm - hmm . uh , yeah , i could try this . um . professor g: and phd b: so , before estimating the snr , @ @ smooth the envelope . professor g: yeah . yeah . uh - huh . phd e: mm - hmm . but yeah . then i i would need to find a way to like smooth less also when there is high energy . cuz i noticed that it it helps a little bit to s like smooth more during low energy portions and less during speech , professor g: yes , y phd e: because if you smooth then y you kind of distort the speech . professor g: yeah . yeah . phd e: um . professor g: right . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah , i think when w you you could do it in this way that you say , if you if i 'm you have somehow a noise estimate , phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: and , if you say i 'm i 'm with my envelope i 'm close to this noise estimate , phd e: yeah . professor g: then you have a bad signal - to - noise ratio and then you you would like to have a stronger smoothing . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: so you could you could base it on your estimation of the signal - to - noise ratio on your actual phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mmm . phd b: yeah , or some silence probability from the vad if you have phd e: um , yeah , but i do n't trust the current vad . so . phd b: yeah , uh , so not not right now maybe . phd e: well , maybe . professor d: the vad later will be much better . phd e: maybe . professor d: yeah . so . i see . phd f: so is that it ? phd e: uh , fff { comment } i think that 's it . yeah . uh . professor g: s so to summarize the performance of these , speechdat - car results is similar than than yours so to say . phd b: yeah , so the fifty - eight is like the be some fifty - six point phd e: yeah . professor g: y you have you have fifty - six point four phd b: yeah , that 's true . professor g: and and and dependent on this additive constant , it is s better or or worse . phd e: yeah . phd b: slightly better . phd e: mm - hmm . phd h: phd b: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah . phd e: and , yeah , i i i the condition where it 's better than your approach , it 's it just because maybe it 's better on well matched and that the weight on well matched is is bigger , phd b: yeah . yeah , you you caught up . phd e: because phd b: yep , that 's true . phd e: if you do n't weigh differently the different condition , you can see that your well , the win the two - stage wiener filtering is maybe better or phd b: yeah . phd e: it 's better for high mismatch , right ? phd b: yeah , it 's better for high mismatch . phd e: mm - hmm . but a little bit worse for well matched . phd b: so over all it gets , yeah , worse for the well matched condition , so y phd e: uh - huh . phd f: so we need to combine these two . phd b: uh , that 's that 's the best thing , is like the french telecom system is optimized for the well matched condition . they c phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . so they know that the weighting is good for the well matched , and so there 's everywhere the well matched 's s s performance is very good for the french telecom . phd e: yeah . professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: t we are we may also have to do something similar @ @ . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: well , our tradition here has always been to focus on the mismatched . phd b: um the professor d: cuz it 's more interesting . professor g: mu - my mine was it too , i mean . professor d: yeah . professor g: before i started working on this aurora . professor d: yeah . professor g: so . professor d: yeah . yeah . ok . phd f: carmen ? do you , uh phd h: well , i only say that the this is , a summary of the of all the vts experiments and say that the result in the last { comment } um , for italian the last experiment for italian , are bad . i make a mistake when i write . up at d i copy one of the bad result . phd b: so you phd h: and there . you know , this . um , well . if we put everything , we improve a lot u the spectral use of the vts but the final result are not still mmm , good like the wiener filter for example . i do n't know . maybe it 's @ @ { comment } it 's possible to to have the same result . phd b: that 's somewhere phd h: i do n't know exactly . mmm . because i have , mmm , { comment } worse result in medium mismatch and high mismatch . phd b: you s you have a better r yeah . you have some results that are good for the high mismatch . phd h: and yeah . i someti are more or less similar but but are worse . and still i do n't have the result for ti - digits . the program is training . maybe for this weekend i will have result ti - digits and i can complete that s like this . well . professor d: uh . right . phd h: one thing that i { comment } note are not here in this result but are speak are spoken before with sunil i i improve my result using clean lda filter . phd b: mm - hmm . professor d: mm - hmm . phd h: if i use , eh , the lda filter that are training with the noisy speech , that hurts the res my results . professor d: so what are these numbers here ? are these with the clean or with the noisy ? phd h: this is with the clean . professor d: ok . phd h: with the noise i have worse result , that if i does n't use it . professor d: uh - huh . phd h: but m that may be because with this technique we are using really really clean speech . the speech the { comment } representation that go to the htk is really clean speech because it 's from the dictionary , the code book and maybe from that . i do n't know . phd e: mm - hmm . phd h: because i think that you did some experiments using the two the two lda filter , clean and noi and noise , phd e: it 's phd h: and it does n't matter too much . phd e: um , yeah , i did that but it does n't matter on speechdat - car , but , it matters , uh , a lot on ti - digits . phd b: using the clean filter . phd h: it 's better to use clean . phd e: yeah , d uh , it 's much better when you we used the clean derived lda filter . phd h: mm - hmm . maybe you can do d also this . phd b: yeah . phd h: to use clean speech . phd b: yeah , i 'll try . phd e: uh , but , yeah , sunil in in your result it 's phd b: i i 'll try the cle no , i i my result is with the noisy noisy lda . phd e: it 's with the noisy one . yeah . phd b: yeah . professor d: oh ! phd b: it 's with the noisy . yeah . it 's it 's not the clean lda . phd e: so professor d: um phd b: it 's in in the front sheet , i have like like the summary . yeah . professor d: and and your result { comment } is with the phd e: it 's with the clean lda . phd b: oh . this is your results are all with the clean lda result ? phd h: yeah , with the clean lda . phd b: ok . @ @ . phd e: yeah . phd b: phd e: and in your case it 's all all noisy , phd h: is that the reason ? phd b: all noisy , yeah . phd e: yeah . but phd h: and phd b: uh phd e: yeah . phd b: uh phd e: but i observe my case it 's in , uh , uh , at least on speechdat - car it does n't matter but ti - digits it 's like two or three percent absolute , uh , { comment } better . phd b: on ti - digits this matters . absolute . uh professor d: so you really might wan na try the clean i think . phd e: so if phd b: yeah , i i i will have to look at it . yeah , that 's true . professor d: yeah . yeah , that could be sizeable right there . phd h: and this is everything . professor g: yeah . professor d: ok . professor g: maybe you you are leaving in in about two weeks carmen . no ? phd h: yeah . professor g: yeah . so i mean , if if if i would put it put on the head of a project mana manager i i i i would say , uh , um i mean there is not so much time left now . professor d: be my guest . professor g: i mean , if um , what what i would do is i i i would pick @ @ { comment } the best consolation , which you think , and c create create all the results for the whole database that you get to the final number as as sunil did it phd h: and prepare at the s professor g: and um and maybe also to to write somehow a document where you describe your approach , and what you have done . phd h: yeah , i was thinking to do that next week . professor d: yeah . professor g: yeah . professor d: yeah , i 'll i 'll borrow the head back and and agree . yeah , phd h: yeah , i wi i i will do that next week . professor d: that 's that 's right . in fact , actually i g i guess the , uh the spanish government , uh , requires that anyway . they want some kind of report from everybody who 's in the program . phd h: mm - hmm . professor d: so . and of course i 'd we 'd we 'd like to see it too . so , phd h: ok . professor d: yeah . phd f: so , um , what 's do you think we , uh , should do the digits or skip it ? or what are what do you think ? professor d: uh , we have them now ? phd f: yeah , got them . professor d: uh , why don why do n't we do it ? phd f: ok . professor d: just { comment } just take a minute . phd h: i can send yet . phd f: would you pass those down ? professor d: oh ! sorry . phd f: ok , um , so i guess i 'll go ahead . um , professor d: seat ? phd e: dave ? is it the channel , or the mike ? i do n't remember . it 's the mike ? professor d: mike ? phd e: it 's not four . phd h: this is date and time . no . on the channel , channel . professor g: what is this ? phd b: t phd f: ok , if you could just leave , um , your mike on top of your , uh , digit form i can fill in any information that 's missing . professor g: ok . phd f: that 's uh i did n't get a chance to fill them out ahead of time . yeah , we 're gon na have to fix that . uh , let 's see , it starts with one here , and then goes around and ends with nine here . grad a: seven . so i i 'm eight , phd f: so he 's eight , grad a: you 're seven . phd f: you 're seven , grad a: yeah .

grad c thought that one way to improve performance might be training lda filters in different conditions . the professor d agreed that the lda filter was interesting . he thought hamming would work too . professor g said that most people just do on-line filtering , which entailed subtracting the mean , not lda .

summarize the discussion on noise addition </s> phd f: and we 're on . professor d: ok . might wan na close the door so that uh , stephane will phd f: i 'll get it . professor d: yeah phd f: hey dave ? could you go ahead and turn on , uh , stephane 's grad c: mm - hmm . professor d: so that 's the virtual stephane over there . phd f: ok . professor g: do you use a pc for recording ? or phd f: uh , yeah , a linux box . yeah . it 's got , uh , like sixteen channels going into it . professor g: uh - huh . uh - huh . the quality is quite good ? or ? phd f: mm - hmm . yeah , so far , it 's been pretty good . professor g: mm - hmm . professor d: yeah . so , uh , yeah the suggestion was to have these guys start to phd f: ok . why do n't you go ahead , dave ? grad c: ok . um , so , yeah , the this past week i 've been main mainly occupied with , um , getting some results , u from the sri system trained on this short hub - five training set for the mean subtraction method . and , um , i ran some tests last night . but , um , c the results are suspicious . um , it 's , um , cuz they 're the baseline results are worse than , um , andreas than results andreas got previously . and it could have something to do with , um phd f: that 's on digits ? grad c: that 's on digits . it c it it could h it could have something to do with , um , downsampling . phd f: hmm . grad c: that 's that 's worth looking into . um , d and , um , ap ap apart from that , i guess the the main thing i have t ta i have to talk is , um , where i 'm planning to go over the next week . um . so i 've been working on integrating this mean subtraction approach into the smartkom system . and there 's this question of , well , so , um , in my tests before with htk i found it worked it worked the best with about twelve seconds of data used to estimate the mean , but , we 'll often have less { comment } in the smartkom system . um . so i think we 'll use as much data as we have at a particular time , and we 'll we 'll concatenate utterances together , um , to get as much data as we possibly can from the user . but , um , there 's a question of how to set up the models . so um , we could train the models . if we think twelve seconds is ideal we could train the models using twelve seconds to calculate the mean , to mean subtract the training data . or we could , um , use some other amount . so like i did an experiment where i , um , was using six seconds in test , um , but , for i tried twelve seconds in train . and i tried , um , um , the same in train i 'm a i tried six seconds in train . and six seconds in train was about point three percent better . um , and um , it 's not clear to me yet whether that 's something significant . so i wan na do some tests and , um , actually make some plots of , um for a particular amount of data and test what happens if you vary the amount of data in train . phd f: mm - hmm . professor d: uh , guenter , i do n't know if you t followed this stuff but this is , uh , a uh , uh , long - term long - term window f f yeah . yeah , he you talked about it . professor g: yeah , we we spoke about it already , professor d: oh , ok . so you know what he 's doing . professor g: yeah . professor d: alright . grad c: y s so i was i actually ran the experiments mostly and i i was i was hoping to have the plots with me today . i just did n't get to it . but , um yeah , i wou i would be curious about people 's feedback on this cuz i 'm @ @ { comment } i p i think there are some i think it 's it 's kind of like a a bit of a tricky engineering problem . i 'm trying to figure out what 's the optimal way to set this up . so , um , i 'll try to make the plots and then put some postscript up on my on my web page . and i 'll mention it in my status report if people wan na take a look . professor d: you could clarify something for me . you 're saying point three percent , you take a point three percent hit , when the training and testing links are do n't match or something ? phd e: hello . professor d: is that what it is ? grad c: w well , it c professor d: or ? grad c: i i do n't think it it 's just for any mismatch you take a hit . professor d: yeah . grad c: i in some cases it might be u better to have a mismatch . like i think i saw something like like if you only have two seconds in test , or , um , maybe it was something like four seconds , you actually do a little better if you , um , train on six seconds than if you train on four seconds . professor d: yeah . right . grad c: um , but the case , uh with the point three percent hit was using six seconds in test , um , comparing train on twelve seconds { comment } versus train on six seconds . professor d: and which was worse ? grad c: the train on twelve seconds . professor d: ok . but point three percent , uh , w from what to what ? that 's point three percent grad c: on the the the accuracies w went from it was something vaguely like ninety - five point six accuracy , um , improved to ninety - five point nine wh when i professor d: so four point four to four point one . grad c: ok . professor d: so yeah . so about a about an eight percent , uh , seven or eight percent relative ? grad c: ok . professor d: uh , yeah . well , i think in a p you know , if if you were going for an evaluation system you 'd care . but if you were doing a live system that people were actually using nobody would notice . it 's uh , i think the thing is to get something that 's practical , that that you could really use . grad c: huh . that 's that 's interesting . alright , the e uh , i see your point . i guess i was thinking of it as , um , an interesting research problem . the how to g i was thinking that for the asru paper we could have a section saying , `` for smartkom , we we d in we tried this approach in , uh , interactive system `` , which i do n't think has been done before . professor d: yeah . mm - hmm . grad c: and and then there was two research questions from that . professor d: mm - hmm . grad c: and one is the k does it still work if you just use the past history ? professor d: mm - hmm . grad c: alright , and the other was this question of , um what i was just talking about now . so i guess that 's why i thought it was interesting . professor d: i mean , a short - time fft short - time cepstrum calculation , uh , mean u mean calculation work that people have in commercial systems , they do this all the time . they the they calculate it from previous utterances and then use it , you know . grad c: yeah , um . professor d: but but , uh , as you say , there has n't been that much with this long long - time , uh , spectra work . grad c: oh , o oh , ok . professor d: uh , grad c: so that 's that 's that 's standard . um professor d: yeah . pretty common . grad c: ok . professor d: yeah . um , but , u uh , yes . no , it is interesting . and the other thing is , i mean , there 's two sides to these really small , uh , gradations in performance . um , i mean , on the one hand in a practical system if something is , uh , four point four percent error , four point one percent error , people wo n't really tell be able to tell the difference . on the other hand , when you 're doing , uh , research , you may , eh you might find that the way that you build up a change from a ninety - five percent accurate system to a ninety - eight percent accurate system is through ten or twelve little things that you do that each are point three percent . so so the they they it 's i do n't mean to say that they 're they 're irrelevant . uh , they are relevant . but , um , i for a demo , you wo n't see it . grad c: mm - hmm . right . ok . professor d: yeah . grad c: and , um , let 's l let 's see . um , ok . and then there 's um , another thing i wan na start looking at , um , wi is , um , the choice of the analysis window length . so i 've just been using two seconds just because that 's what carlos did before . uh , i wrote to him asking about he chose the two seconds . and it seemed like he chose it a bit informally . so , um , with the with the htk set - up i should be able to do some experiments , on just varying that length , say between one and three seconds , in a few different reverberation conditions , um , say this room and also a few of the artificial impulse responses we have for reverberation , just , um , making some plots and seeing how they look . and , um , so , with the the sampling rate i was using , one second or two seconds or four seconds is at a power of two um , number of samples and , um , i 'll i 'll jus f for the ones in between i guess i 'll just zero - pad . professor d: mm - hmm . i guess one thing that might also be an issue , uh , cuz part of what you 're doing is you 're getting a a spectrum over a bunch of different kinds of speech sounds . um , and so it might matter how fast someone was talking for instance . grad c: oh . professor d: you know , if you if if if there 's a lot of phones in one second maybe you 'll get a a really good sampling of all these different things , and and , uh , on the other hand if someone 's talking slowly maybe you 'd need more . so grad c: huh . professor d: i do n't know if you have some samples of faster or slower speech but it might make a difference . i do n't know . grad c: uh , yeah , i do n't i do n't think the ti - digits data that i have , um , i is would be appropriate for that . professor d: yeah , probably not . yeah . grad c: but what do you what about if i w i fed it through some kind of , um , speech processing algorithm that changed the speech rate ? professor d: yeah , but then you 'll have the degradation of of , uh , whatever you do uh , added onto that . but maybe . yeah , maybe if you get something that sounds that that 's does a pretty job at that . grad c: yeah . well , uh , just if you think it 's worth looking into . professor d: you could imagine that . grad c: i mean , it it is getting a little away from reverberation . professor d: um , yeah . it 's just that you 're making a choice uh , i was thinking more from the system aspect , if you 're making a choice for smartkom , that that that it might be that it 's it c the optimal number could be different , depending on grad c: yeah . right . professor d: could be . i do n't know . grad c: and and th the third thing , um , uh , is , um , barry explained lda filtering to me yesterday . and so , um , mike shire in his thesis um , did a a series of experiments , um , training lda filters in d on different conditions . and you were interested in having me repeat this for for this mean subtraction approach ? is is that right ? or for these long analysis windows , i guess , is the right way to put it . professor d: i guess , the the the issue i was the general issue i was bringing up was that if you 're have a moving moving window , uh , a wa a a set of weights times things that , uh , move along , shift along in time , that you have in fact a linear time invariant filter . and you just happened to have picked a particular one by setting all the weights to be equal . and so the issue is what are some other filters that you could use , uh , in that sense of `` filter `` ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor d: and , um , as i was saying , i think the simplest thing to do is not to train anything , but just to do some sort of , uh , uh , hamming or hanning , uh , kind of window , kind of thing , grad c: right . mm - hmm . professor d: just sort of to de - emphasize the jarring . so i think that would sort of be the first thing to do . but then , yeah , the lda i uh , is interesting because it would sort of say well , suppose you actually trained this up to do the best you could by some criterion , what would the filter look like then ? grad c: uh - huh . professor d: uh , and , um , that 's sort of what we 're doing in this aur - aurora stuff . and , uh , it 's still not clear to me in the long run whether the best thing to do would be to do that or to have some stylized version of the filter that looks like these things you 've trained up , because you always have the problem that it 's trained up for one condition and it is n't quite right for another . so . uh that 's that 's why that 's why rasta filter has actually ended up lasting a long time , people still using it quite a bit , because y you do n't change it . so does n't get any worse . uh , grad c: huh . professor d: anyway . grad c: o ok . so , um , a actually i was just thinking about what i was asking about earlier , wi which is about having less than say twelve seconds in the smartkom system to do the mean subtraction . you said in systems where you use cepstral mean subtraction , they concatenate utterances and , do you know how they address this issue of , um , testing versus training ? can professor d: go ahead . professor g: i think what they do is they do it always on - line , i mean , that you just take what you have from the past , that you calculate the mean of this and subtract the mean . grad c: ok . um professor g: and then you can yeah , you you can increase your window whi while you get while you are getting more samples . grad c: ok , um , and , um , so so in tha in that case , wh what do they do when they 're t um , performing the cepstral mean subtraction on the training data ? so because you 'd have hours and hours of training data . so do they cut it off and start over ? at intervals ? or ? professor g: so do you have uh , you you mean you have files which are hours of hours long ? or ? grad c: oh , well , no . i guess not . but professor g: yeah . i mean , usually you have in the training set you have similar conditions , i mean , file lengths are , i guess the same order or in the same size as for test data , or are n't they ? grad c: ok . but it 's ok . so if someone 's interacting with the system , though , uh , morgan uh , morgan said that you would tend to , um , chain utterances together um , r professor d: well , i think what i was s i thought what i was saying was that , um , at any given point you are gon na start off with what you had from before . grad c: oh . professor d: from and so if you 're splitting things up into utterances so , for instance , in a dialogue system , { comment } where you 're gon na be asking , uh , you know , th for some information , there 's some initial th something . and , you know , the first time out you you might have some general average . but you you d you do n't have very much information yet . but at after they 've given one utterance you 've got something . you can compute your mean cepstra from that , grad c: mm - hmm . professor d: and then can use it for the next thing that they say , uh , so that , you know , the performance should be better that second time . um , and i think the heuristics of exactly how people handle that and how they handle their training i 'm sure vary from place to place . but i think the ideally , it seems to me anyway , that you you would wan na do the same thing in training as you do in test . but that 's that 's just , uh , a prejudice . and i think anybody working on this with some particular task would experiment . grad c: right . i g i guess the question i had was , um , amount of data e u was the amount of data that you 'd give it to , um update this estimate . because say you if you have say five thousand utterances in your training set , um , and you you keep the mean from the last utterance , by the time it gets to the five thousandth utterance professor d: no , but those are all different people with different i mean , i in y so for instance , in in the in a telephone task , these are different phone calls . so you do n't wan na @ @ { comment } chain it together from a from a different phone call . grad c: ok , so so so they would g s professor d: so it 's within speaker , within phone call , professor g: yeah . professor d: if it 's a dialogue system , it 's within whatever this characteristic you 're trying to get rid of is expected to be consistent over , professor g: hmm . grad c: r and it professor d: right ? grad c: right . ok , so you 'd you and so in training you would start over at at every new phone call or at every new speaker . yeah , professor d: yeah . grad c: ok . professor d: yeah . now , you know , maybe you 'd use something from the others just because at the beginning of a call you do n't know anything , and so you might have some kind of general thing that 's your best guess to start with . but so , s i i you know , a lot of these things are proprietary so we 're doing a little bit of guesswork here . i mean , what do comp what do people do who really face these problems in the field ? well , they have companies and they do n't tell other people exactly what they do . grad c: r right . professor d: but but i mean , when you the the hints that you get from what they when they talk about it are that they do they all do something like this . grad c: right , ok . i see . bec - because i so this smartkom task first off , it 's this tv and movie information system . professor d: yeah , but you might have somebody who 's using it grad c: and yeah . professor d: and then later you might have somebody else who 's using it . grad c: yeah . right . right . i i see . professor d: and so you 'd wan na set some grad c: i was i was about to say . so if if you ask it `` what what movies are on tv tonight ? `` , professor d: yeah . yeah . grad c: if i look at my wristwatch when i say that it 's about two seconds . the way i currently have the mean subtraction , um , set up , the the analysis window is two seconds . professor d: yeah . grad c: so what you just said , about what do you start with , raises a question of what do i start with then ? professor d: mm - hmm . grad c: i guess it because professor d: well , w ok , so in that situation , though , th maybe what 's a little different there , is i think you 're talking about there 's only one it it it also depends we 're getting a little off track here . grad c: oh , right . professor d: r but but but uh , there 's been some discussion about whether the work we 're doing in that project is gon na be for the kiosk or for the mobile or for both . and i think for this kind of discussion it matters . if it 's in the kiosk , then the physical situation is the same . it 's gon na you know , the exact interaction of the microphone 's gon na differ depending on the person and so forth . but at least the basic acoustics are gon na be the same . so f if it 's really in one kiosk , then i think that you could just chain together and and you know , as much as much speech as possible to because what you 're really trying to get at is the is the reverberation characteristic . grad c: yeah . professor d: but in in the case of the mobile , uh , { comment } presumably the acoustic 's changing all over the place . grad c: right . professor d: and in that case you probably do n't wan na have it be endless because you wan na have some sort of it 's it 's not a question of how long do you think it 's you can get an approximation to a stationary something , given that it 's not really stationary . grad c: right . right . professor d: so . professor g: hmm . grad c: and i i g i guess i s just started thinking of another question , which is , for for the very first frame , w what what do i do if i 'm if i take if i use that frame to calculate the mean , then i 'm just gon na get n nothing . professor d: mm - hmm . grad c: um , professor d: right . grad c: so i should probably have some kind of default mean for the first f couple of frames ? professor d: yeah . yeah . grad c: ok . professor d: yeah . or subtract nothing . i mean , it 's grad c: or subtract nothing . and and that 's that 's i guess that 's something that 's p people have figured out how to deal with in cepstral mean subtraction as well ? professor d: yeah , yeah . yeah , people do something . they they , uh , they have some , um , uh , in in cepstral mean subtraction , for short - term window analysis windows , as is usually done , you 're trying to get rid of some very general characteristic . and so , uh , if you have any other information about what a general kind of characteristic would be , then you you can do it there . phd f: you can also you can also reflect the data . so you take , uh you know , i 'm not sure how many frames you need . grad c: uh - huh . phd f: but you take that many from the front and flip it around to a as the negative value . professor d: yeah , that 's yeah . phd f: so you can always professor d: the other thing is that and and i i remember b b n doing this , is that if you have a multi - pass system , um , if the first pass ta it takes most of the computation , the second and the third pass could be very , very quick , grad c: mmm . professor d: just looking at a relatively small n small , uh , space of hypotheses . grad c: uh - huh . professor d: then you can do your first pass without any subtraction at all . grad c: oh . professor d: and then your second pass , uh , uh , eliminates those most of those hypotheses by , uh by having an improved improved version o of the analysis . grad c: ok . ok . professor d: so . grad c: ok . so that was all i had , for now . professor d: yeah . phd f: do you wan na go , barry ? grad a: yeah , ok . um , so for the past , uh , week an or two , i 've been just writing my , uh , formal thesis proposal . um , so i 'm taking this qualifier exam that 's coming up in two weeks . and i i finish writing a proposal and submit it to the committee . um . and uh , should i should i explain , uh , more about what what i 'm proposing to do , and s and stuff ? professor d: yes , briefly . phd f: yeah briefly . grad a: ok . um , so briefly , i 'm proposing to do a n a new p approach to speech recognition using um , a combination of , uh , multi - band ideas and ideas , um , { comment } about the uh , acoustic phonec phonetic approach to speech recognition . um , so i will be using these graphical models that um , that implement the multi - band approach to recognize a set of intermediate categories that might involve , uh , things like phonetic features or other other f feature things that are more closely related to the acoustic signal itself . um , and the hope in all of this is that by going multi - band and by going into these , um intermediate classifications , that we can get a system that 's more robust to to unseen noises , and situations like that . um , and so , some of the research issues involved in this are , um , { comment } one , what kind of intermediate categories do we need to classify ? um , another one is um , what what other types of structures in these multi - band graphical models should we consider in order to um , combine evidence from the sub - bands ? and , uh , the third one is how do we how do we merge all the , uh , information from the individual uh , multi - band classifiers to come up with word word recognition or or phone recognition things . um , so basically that 's that 's what i 've been doing . and , phd f: so you 've got two weeks , huh ? grad a: i got two weeks to brush up on d um , presentation stuff and , um , professor d: oh , i thought you were finishing your thesis in two weeks . grad a: but . oh , that too . professor d: yeah . grad a: yeah . phd f: are you gon na do any dry runs for your thing , grad a: yes . phd f: or are you just gon na grad a: yes . i , um i 'm i 'm gon na do some . would you be interested ? to help out ? phd f: sure . grad a: ok . phd f: sure . grad a: thanks . yeah . phd f: is that it ? grad a: that 's it . phd f: hhh . ok . uh . hhh . let 's see . so we 've got forty minutes left , and it seems like there 's a lot of material . an - any suggestions about where we where we should go next ? phd b: mmm , @ @ . phd f: uh . do you wan na go , sunil ? maybe we 'll just start with you . phd b: yeah . but i actually stuck most of this in our m last meeting with guenter . um , but i 'll just um , so the last week , uh , i showed some results with only speechdat - car which was like some fifty - six percent . and , uh , i did n't h i mean , i i found that the results i mean , i was n't getting that r results on the ti - digit . so i was like looking into `` why , what is wrong with the ti - digits ? `` . why why i was not getting it . and i found that , the noise estimation is a reason for the ti - digits to perform worse than the baseline . so , uh , i actually , picked th i mean , the first thing i did was i just scaled the noise estimate by a factor which is less than one to see if that because i found there are a lot of zeros in the spectrogram for the ti - digits when i used this approach . so the first thing i did was i just scaled the noise estimate . and i found so the the results that i 've shown here are the complete results using the new well , the n the new technique is nothing but the noise estimate scaled by a factor of point five . so it 's just an ad - hoc i mean , some intermediate result , because it 's not optimized for anything . so the results the trend the only trend i could see from those results was like the the p the current noise estimation or the , uh , noise composition scheme is working good for like the car noise type of thing . because i 've the only only p very good result in the ti - digits is the noise car noise condition for their test - a , which is like the best i could see that uh , for any non - stationary noise like `` babble `` or `` subway `` or any `` street `` , some `` restaurant `` noise , it 's like it 's not performing w very well . so , the so that that 's the first thing i c uh , i could make out from this stuff . and professor g: yeah , i think what is important to see is that there is a big difference between the training modes . phd b: yeah . professor g: uh - huh . if you have clean training , you get also a fifty percent improvement . phd b: yeah . professor g: but if you have muddy condition training you get only twenty percent . phd b: yeah . yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: uh , and in that twenty percent @ @ it 's very inconsistent across different noise conditions . professor g: mm - hmm . mmm . phd b: so i have like a forty - five percent for `` car noise `` and then there 's a minus five percent for the `` babble `` , professor g: mmm . phd b: and there 's this thirty - three for the `` station `` . and so it 's it 's not it 's not actually very consistent across . so . the only correlation between the speechdat - car and this performance is the c stationarity of the noise that is there in these conditions and the speechdat - car . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: and , uh so so the overall result is like in the last page , which is like forty - seven , which is still very imbalanced because there are like fifty - six percent on the speechdat - car and thirty - five percent on the ti - digits . and uh , ps the fifty - six percent is like comparable to what the french telecom gets , but the thirty - five percent is way off . professor d: i 'm sort of confused but this i 'm looking on the second page , phd b: oh , yep . professor d: and it says `` fifty percent `` looking in the lower right - hand corner , `` fifty percent relative performance `` . professor g: for the clean training . professor d: is that professor g: u and if you if you look professor d: is that fifty percent improvement ? phd b: yeah . for that 's for the clean training and the noisy testing for the ti - digits . professor g: yeah . professor d: so it 's improvement over the baseline mel cepstrum ? phd b: yeah . yeah . professor d: but the baseline mel cepstrum under those training does n't do as well i i 'm i 'm trying to understand why it 's it 's eighty percent that 's an accuracy number , i guess , phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah . professor d: right ? so that 's not as good as the one up above . phd b: no . professor d: but the fifty is better than the one up above , phd b: yeah . professor d: so i 'm confused . phd b: uh , actually the noise compensation whatever , uh , we are put in it works very well for the high mismatch condition . i mean , it 's consistent in the speechdat - car and in the clean training also it gives it but this fifty percent is is that the the high mismatch performance equivalent to the high mismatch performance in the speech . phd f: so n s so since the high mismatch performance is much worse to begin with , it 's easier to get a better relative improvement . phd b: yeah . yeah . i do . yeah , yeah . so by putting this noise phd e: yeah . yeah , if we look at the figures on the right , we see that the reference system is very bad . professor d: oh . phd b: yeah . the reference drops like a very fast professor d: oh , oh , oh , oh , oh , oh . phd e: like for clean clean training condition . professor d: i see . phd b: yeah . professor d: i see . phd e: nnn . professor d: this is this is ti digits { comment } we 're looking at ? phd b: yeah . yeah . oh professor d: this whole page is ti - digits phd b: oh . yeah . professor d: or this is ? phd b: it 's not written anywhere . yeah , it 's ti - digits . the first r spreadsheet is ti - digits . professor d: mmm . how does clean training do for the , uh , `` car `` professor g: hmm . phd b: the `` car `` ? professor d: stuff ? phd b: oh . still it still , uh that that 's still consistent . i mean , i get the best performance in the case of `` car `` , which is the third column in the a condition . professor d: no . i mean , this is added noise . i mean , this is ti - digits . i 'm sorry . i meant in in the in the , uh , multi - language , uh , uh , finnish and phd b: uh professor g: this is next next page . phd b: that 's the next next spreadsheet , is professor g: hmm . phd b: so that is the performance for italian , finnish and spanish . professor d: `` training condition `` oh , right . so `` clean `` corresponds to `` high mismatch `` . phd b: yeah . professor d: and `` increase `` , that 's increase e professor g: improvement . phd b: improvement . that 's `` percentage increase `` is the percentage improvement over the baseline . professor g: yeah . it 's it 's a phd b: so that 's professor d: which means decrease in word error rate ? phd b: yeah . professor d: ok , so `` percentage increase `` means decrease ? phd b: yeah , yeah . professor d: ok . professor g: yeah . the the w there was a very long discussion about this on on the on the , uh , amsterdam meeting . professor d: yeah . professor g: how to how to calculate it then . phd b: yeah . there 's there 's a professor g: i i i guess you are using finally this the scheme which they phd b: which is there in the spreadsheet . professor g: ok . phd b: i 'm not changing anything in there . professor g: mmm . professor d: alright . phd b: so . uh , yeah . so all the hi h m numbers are w very good , in the sense , they are better than what the french telecom gets . so . but the the only number that 's still i mean , which stephane also got in his result was that medium mismatch of the finnish , which is very which is a very strange situation where we used the we changed the proto for initializing the hmm i mean , this this is basically because it gets stuck in some local minimum in the training . that seventy - five point seven nine in the finnish mismatch which is that the eleven point nine six what we see . professor d: uh - huh . professor g: mmm . phd b: yeah . professor d: so we have to jiggle it somehow ? phd b: yeah so we start with that different proto and it becomes eighty - eight , which is like some fifty percent improvement . professor d: s wait a minute . start with a different what ? phd b: different prototype , which is like a different initialization for the , uh , s transition probabilities . it 's just that right now , the initialization is to stay more in the current state , which is point four point six , right ? yeah . phd e: yeah . phd b: and if it changes to point five point five , which is equal @ @ for transition and self loop where it becomes eighty - eight percent . phd f: well , but that involves mucking with the back - end , phd b: yeah . we ca n't do it . phd f: which is not allowed . phd b: yeah . phd e: mmm . phd f: yeah . phd b: so . professor g: i mean , it uh , like , i i i it is well known , this this medium match condition of the finnish data has some strange effects . phd b: very s phd e: yeah . phd b: it has a very few at uh , actually , c uh , tran i mean , words also . professor g: i mean , that is yeah , phd b: it 's a very , very small set , actually . professor g: that too . yeah . uh - huh . phd b: so there is professor g: there is a l a there is a lot of uh , there are a lot of utterances with music in with music in the background . phd b: yeah . yeah , yeah , yeah . yeah . professor g: mmm . professor d: uh - huh . phd b: yeah . it has some music also . i mean , very horrible music like like i know . professor d: so maybe for that one you need a much smarter vad ? mmm , phd b: uh professor d: if it 's music . phd b: so , that that 's the that 's about the results . and , uh , the summary is like ok . so there are the other thing what i tried was , which i explained in the last meeting , is using the channel zero for , uh , for both dropping and estimating the noise . and that 's like just to f n get a feel of how good it is . i guess the fifty - six percent improvement in the speechdat - car becomes like sixty - seven percent . like ten percent better . but that 's that 's not a that 's a cheating experiment . so . that 's just so , m w professor g: but the but the , uh , forty - seven point nine percent which you have now , that 's already a remarkable improvement in comparison to the first proposal . phd b: yeah . so we had forty - four percent in the first proposal . professor g: ok . phd b: yeah . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: we have f a big im so the major improvement that we got was in all the high mismatch cases , because all those numbers were in sixties and seventies because we never had any noise compensations . professor g: mmm . phd b: so that 's where the biggest improvement came up . not much in the well match and the medium match and ti - digits also right now . so this is still at three or four percent improvement over the first proposal . professor g: mmm . mmm . professor d: yeah , so that 's good . phd b: yeah . so . professor d: then if we can improve the noise estimation , then it should get better . professor g: yeah , i i started thinking about also i mean yeah , uh , i discovered the same problem when i started working on uh , on this aurora task almost two years ago , that you have the problem with this mulit a at the beginning we had only this multi condition training of the ti - digits . phd b: yeah . professor g: and , uh , i i found the same problem . just taking um , what we were used to u use , i mean , uh , some type of spectral subtraction , { comment } y you get even worse results than the basis phd b: yeah . yeah , professor g: and uh phd b: yeah . professor g: i i tried to find an explanation for it , professor d: mmm . professor g: so phd b: so . yes . stephane also has the same experience of using the spectral subtraction right ? professor g: mmm . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . so here here i mean , i found that it 's if i changed the noise estimate i could get an improvement . phd e: yeah . phd b: so that 's so it 's something which i can actually pursue , is the noise estimate . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: and professor g: yeah , i think what you do is in when when you have the the this multi - condition training mode , um then you have then you can train models for the speech , for the words , as well as for the pauses where you really have all information about the noise available . phd b: yeah . professor g: and it was surprising at the beginning it was not surprising to me that you get really the best results on doing it this way , i mean , in comparison to any type of training on clean data and any type of processing . but it was so , u u it it seems to be the best what wh wh what what we can do in this moment is multi - condition training . and every when we now start introducing some some noise reduction technique we we introduce also somehow artificial distortions . phd b: yeah . professor g: and these artificial distortions uh , i have the feeling that they are the reason why why we have the problems in this multi - condition training . that means the h m ms we trained , they are they are based on gaussians , phd b: yeah . professor g: and on modeling gaussians . and if you can i move a little bit with this ? yeah . and if we introduce now this this u spectral subtraction , or wiener filtering stuff so , usually what you have is maybe , um i 'm i 'm showing now an envelope um maybe you 'll f for this time . so usually you have maybe in clean condition you have something which looks like this . and if it is noisy it is somewhere here . and then you try to subtract it or wiener filter or whatever . and what you get is you have always these problems , that you have this these these these zeros in there . phd b: yeah . professor g: and you have to do something if you get these negative values . i mean , this is your noise estimate and you somehow subtract it or do whatever . uh , and then you have and then i think what you do is you introduce some some artificial distribution in this uh in in the models . i mean , i you you train it also this way but , i somehow there is u u there is no longer a a gaussian distribution . it is somehow a strange distribution which we introduce with these artificial distortions . and and i was thinking that that might be the reason why you get these problems in the especially in the multi - condition training mode . phd b: yeah , yeah . professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: th - that 's true . yeah the c the models are not complex enough to absorb that additional variability that you 're introducing . professor g: s phd f: thanks adam . professor g: yeah . yes . phd b: well , that 's yeah . so phd e: i also have the feeling that um , the reason ye why it does n't work is yeah , that the models are much are t um , not complex enough . because i actually i als always had a good experience with spectral subtraction , just a straight spectral subtraction algorithm when i was using neural networks , big neural networks , which maybe are more able to model strange distributions and professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: but yeah . then i tried the same exactly the same spectral subtraction algorithm on these aurora tasks and it simply does n't work . it 's even it , uh , hurts even . professor g: hmm . phd e: so . professor d: we probably should at some point here try the tandem the the the system - two kind of stuff with this , with the spectral subtraction for that reason . professor g: hmm . professor d: cuz again , it should do a transformation to a domain where it maybe looks more gaussian . professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: hmm . yeah , y i i was whe w w just yesterday when i was thinking about it um w what what we could try to do , or do about it i mean , if you if you get at this in this situation that you get this this negative values and you simply set it to zero or to a constant or whatever if we if we would use there a somehow , um a random generator which which has a certain distribution , u not a certain { comment } yeah , a special distribution we should see we we have to think about it . phd b: it 's professor g: and that we , so , introduce again some natural behavior in this trajectory . professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: mm - hmm . very different from speech . still , i mean , it should n't confuse the professor g: yeah , i mean , similar to what what you see really u in in the real um noisy situation . phd b: ok . mm - hmm . professor g: or i in the clean situation . but but somehow a a natural distribution . professor d: but is n't that s again sort of the idea of the additive thing , if it as as we had in the j stuff ? i mean , basically if if you have random data , um , in in the time domain , then when you look at the s spectrum it 's gon na be pretty flat . and and , professor g: mm - hmm . professor d: uh , so just add something everywhere rather than just in those places . it 's just a constant , right ? phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah . i think e yeah . it 's it 's just especially in these segments , i mean , you introduce , um , very artificial behavior . professor d: yeah . yeah . professor g: and professor d: well , see if you add something everywhere , it has almost no effect up up up on on top . and it and it and it has significant effect down there . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: that was , sort of the idea . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: hmm . yeah the that 's true . that those those regions are the cause for this @ @ those negative values or whatever you get . professor g: i mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . so . professor g: i mean , we we could trit uh , we we could think how w what what we could try . phd b: yeah . yeah , yeah . professor g: i mean , it it was just an idea . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: i mean , we professor d: i think when it 's noisy people should just speak up . professor g: to mmm . phd b: so phd e: if we look at the france telecom proposal , they use some kind of noise addition . they have a random number generator , right ? and they add noise on the trajectory of , uh , the log energy only , right ? professor d: oh , they do ! phd b: yep . professor d: oh . phd b: c - z c - zero and log energy also , yeah . phd e: yeah . um , but i do n't know how much effect it this have , but they do that . phd b: now ? phd e: yeah . phd b: oh . professor g: uh - huh . professor d: hmm . professor g: so it it it it it is l somehow similar to what phd e: i think because they have th log energy , yeah , and then just generate random number . they have some kind of mean and variance , and they add this number to to the log energy simply . um phd b: yeah the the log energy , the after the clean cleaning up . professor d: to the l phd b: so they add a random random noise to it . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: to the just the energy , or to the mel uh , to the mel filter ? phd b: no . on - only to the log energy . phd e: only yeah . professor d: oh . professor g: uh - huh . professor d: so it cuz i mean , i think this is most interesting for the mel filters . right ? professor g: uh - huh . professor d: or or f f one or the other . professor g: but but they do not apply filtering of the log energy or what phd b: like , uh i mean professor g: like like a spectral subtraction or phd b: no their filter is not m domain . s so they did filter their time signal professor g: yeah . i kn phd b: and then what @ @ u professor g: and then they calculate from this , the log energy phd b: yeah then after that it is s almost the same as the baseline prop system . professor g: or ? mm - hmm . phd b: and then the final log energy that they that they get , that to the to that they add some random noise . professor d: yeah , but again , that 's just log energy as opposed to filter bank energy . phd b: yeah . so it 's not the mel . professor g: mmm . phd b: you know , it 's not the mel filter bank output . professor d: yeah . phd b: these are log energy computed from the time s domain signal , professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: not from the mel filter banks . so did professor d: hmm . phd e: maybe it 's just a way to decrease the importance of this particular parameter in the in the world feature vector cu if you add noise to one of the parameters , you widen the distributions professor d: hmm . phd b: becomes flat . the variance , yeah , reduces , phd e: and phd b: so . hmm , yeah . phd e: eee - sss - uh . professor d: so it could reduce the dependence on the amplitude and so on . yeah . phd e: yeah . phd b: yeah . although professor d: maybe . phd e: mm - hmm . phd f: so is , uh is that about it ? phd b: uh , so the phd f: or ? phd b: ok . so the other thing is the i 'm just looking at a little bit on the delay issue where the delay of the system is like a hundred and eighty millisecond . so i just just tried another sk system i mean , another filter which i 've like shown at the end . which is very similar to the existing uh , filter . only uh , only thing is that the phase is is like a totally nonlinear phase because it 's a it 's not a symmetric filter anymore . phd f: this is for the lda ? phd b: yeah so so this this is like so this makes the delay like zero for lda because it 's completely causal . phd f: oh . phd b: so so i got actually just the results for the italian for that and that 's like so the fifty - one point o nine has become forty - eight point o six , which is like three percent relative degradation . so i have like the fifty - one point o nine phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: and so . i do n't know it f fares for the other conditions . so it 's just like it 's like a three percent relative degradation , with the professor g: but but is there is there a problem with the one hundred eighty milliseconds ? or ? phd b: u uh , may professor d: th - well , this is professor g: yeah , i mean , i talked to to uh , i ta uh , i talked , uh , about it with with hynek . i mean , there is professor d: this is so so , basically our our position is that , um , we should n't be unduly constraining the latency at this point because we 're all still experimenting with trying to make the performance better in the presence of noise . uh , there is a minority in that group who is a arguing who are arguing for um , uh , having a further constraining of the latency . so we 're s just continuing to keep aware of what the trade - offs are and , you know , what what do we gain from having longer or shorter latencies ? professor g: mmm . professor d: but since we always seem to at least get something out of longer latencies not being so constrained , we 're tending to go with that if we 're not told we ca n't do it . phd f: what where was the , um the smallest latency of all the systems last time ? professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: the french telecom . professor d: well , france telecom was was was very short latency professor g: it 's professor d: and they had a very good result . phd f: what what was it ? professor d: it was thirty - five . professor g: it was in the order of thirty milliseconds professor d: yeah . professor g: or phd f: thirteen ? professor d: th th professor g: thirty . phd f: thirty . phd b: thirty - four . professor d: yeah . professor g: yeah . professor d: yeah , so it 's possible to get very short latency . professor g: professor d: but , again , we 're the the approaches that we 're using are ones that take advantage of phd f: yeah . i was just curious about where we are compared to , you know , the shortest that people have done . professor g: but but i think this thirty milliseconds they they did it did not include the the delta calculation . phd b: yeah . yeah . yeah . professor g: and this is included now , phd b: yeah . yeah . professor g: you know ? phd b: so if they include the delta , it will be an additional forty millisecond . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: yeah . professor g: yeah . i i do n't remember the i th they were not using the htk delta ? phd b: no , they 're using a nine - point window , which is like a four on either side , professor g: nine - point . phd b: which is like professor g: ok . phd b: f so professor g: mmm . phd b: they did n't include that . professor d: yeah . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: so phd e: where does the comprish compression in decoding delay comes from ? phd f: ok . phd e: phd b: that 's the way the the the frames are packed , like you have to wait for one more frame to pack . because it 's the crc is computed for two frames always . professor d: well , that the they would need that forty milliseconds also . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: no . they actually changed the compression scheme altogether . professor d: right ? phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: so they have their own compression and decoding scheme and they i do n't know what they have . professor d: oh . phd b: but they have coded zero delay for that . because they ch i know they changed it , their compression . they have their own crc , their their own error correction mechanism . professor d: oh . phd b: so they do n't have to wait more than one more frame to know whether the current frame is in error . professor d: oh , ok . phd b: so they changed the whole thing so that there 's no delay for that compression and part also . professor d: hmm . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: even you have reported actually zero delay for the compression . i thought maybe you also have some different professor g: mmm . mmm . no , i think i i used this scheme as it was before . phd b: ok . ah . mm - hmm . phd f: ok , we 've got twenty minutes so we should probably try to move along . uh , did you wan na go next , stephane ? phd e: i can go next . yeah . mmm . professor d: oh . wait a minute . it 's phd e: it 's yeah , we have to take professor d: wait a minute . i think i 'm confused . phd e: well ok . professor d: alright . phd e: so you have w w one sheet ? this one is you do n't need it , alright . professor d: uh phd e: so you have to take the whole the five . there should be five sheets . professor d: ok , phd e: professor d: i have four now because i left one with dave because i thought i was dropping one off and passing the others on . so , no , we 're not . ok . phd b: thanks . phd h: please give me one . professor d: ah , we need one more over here . phd e: ok , maybe there 's not enough for everybody . phd f: i can share with barry . grad a: yeah . professor d: oh , ok . phd e: but can we look at this ? professor g: ok . grad c: yeah . phd e: so , yeah , there are two figures showing actually the , mmm , um , performance of the current vad . so it 's a n neural network based on plp parameters , uh , which estimate silence probabilities , and then i just put a median filtering on this to smooth the probabilities , right ? um i did n't use the the scheme that 's currently in the proposal because i do n't want to in the proposal well , in in the system we want to add like speech frame before every word and a little bit of of , uh , s a couple of frames after also . uh , but to estimate the performance of the vad , we do n't want to do that , because it would artificially increase the um the false alarm rate of speech detection . right ? um , so , there is u normally a figure for the finnish and one for italian . and maybe someone has two for the italian because i 'm missing one figure here . phd b: no . phd e: well well , whatever . uh yeah , so one surprising thing that we can notice first is that apparently the speech miss rate is uh , higher than the false alarm rate . so . it means professor g: so so what is the lower curve and the upper curve ? phd e: mm - hmm . yeah , there are two curves . one curve 's for the close - talking microphone , which is the lower curve . professor g: yeah . phd e: and the other one is for the distant microphone professor g: ah , ok . phd e: which has more noise so , it 's logical that it performs worse . so as i was saying , the miss rate is quite important uh , which means that we tend to label speech as as a silence . and , uh , i did n't analyze further yet , but i think it 's it may be due to the fricative sounds which may be in noisy condition maybe label labelled as silence . and it may also be due to the alignment because well , the reference alignment . because right now i just use an alignment obtained from from a system trained on channel zero . and i checked it a little bit but there might be alignment errors . um , yeah , e like the fact that the the models tend to align their first state on silence and their last state o on silence also . so the reference reference alignment would label as speech some silence frame before speech and after speech . this is something that we already noticed before when mmm , so this cus this could also explain , uh , the high miss rate maybe . uh professor g: and and this this curves are the average over the whole database , so . phd e: yeah . right . professor g: mmm . phd e: um yeah , and the different points of the curves are for five uh , thresholds on the probability { comment } uh from point three to point seven . phd b: so that threshold phd e: mm - hmm . yeah . phd b: ok . s ok so d the detection threshold is very phd e: so the v phd b: yeah , yeah . phd e: the vad ? yeah . there first , a threshold on the probability { comment } @ @ { comment } that puts all the values to zero or one . phd b: mmm . phd e: and then the median filtering . phd b: yeah , so the median filtering is fixed . you just change the threshold ? phd e: yeah . it 's fixed , phd b: yeah . phd e: yeah . mm - hmm . so , going from channel zero to channel one , uh , almost double the error rate . um , yeah . well , so it 's a reference performance that we can you know , if we want to to work on the vad , { comment } we can work on this basis phd h: phd b: mm - hmm . phd e: and phd b: ok . grad a: is this is this vad a mlp ? phd e: yeah . grad a: ok . how how big is it ? phd e: it 's a very big one . i do n't remember . phd b: so three three hundred and fifty inputs , phd e: m phd b: uh , six thousand hidden nodes and two outputs . t t grad a: ok . phd b: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: middle - sized one . phd b: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: phd e: yeah . uh , ppp . i do n't know , you have questions about that , or suggestions ? phd b: mmm . s so phd e: it seems the performance seems worse in finnish , which phd b: well , it 's not trained on finnish . phd e: uh phd h: it 's worse . phd e: it 's not trained on finnish , yeah . professor d: what 's it trained on ? phd b: i mean , the mlp 's not trained on finnish . professor d: right , what 's it trained on ? phd b: oh oh . sorry . uh , it 's italian ti - digits . professor d: yeah . oh , it 's trained on italian ? phd b: yeah . professor d: yeah , ok . phd e: mm - hmm . and phd b: that 's right . professor d: ok . phd e: and also there are like funny noises on finnish more than on italian . i mean , like music professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . yeah , the yeah , it 's true . phd e: and um so , yeah , we were looking at this . but for most of the noises , noises are um , i do n't know if we want to talk about that . but , well , the the `` car `` noises are below like five hundred hertz . and we were looking at the `` music `` utterances and in this case the noise is more about two thousand hertz . phd b: yeah . phd e: well , the music energy 's very low apparently . uh , uh , from zero to two two thousand hertz . so maybe just looking at this frequency range for from five hundred to two thousand would improve somewhat the vad phd b: mmm . phd e: and phd b: yeah . phd e: mmm phd b: so there are like some some s some parameters you wanted to use or something ? phd e: yeah , but yes . phd b: or yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . uh , the next , um oh , it 's there . professor g: so is the is the is the training is the training based on these labels files which you take as reference here ? phd e: yeah . professor g: wh - when you train the neural net y y you phd e: no . it 's not . it 's it was trained on some alignment obtained um , uh for the italian data , i think we trained the neural network on with embedded training . so re - estimation of the alignment using the neural network , i guess . that 's right ? phd b: yeah . we actually trained , uh , the on the italian training part . phd e: yeah . phd b: we we had another system with u phd e: so it was a f f a phonetic classification system for the italian aurora data . phd b: yeah . it must be somewhere . yeah . phd e: for the aurora data that it was trained on , it was different . like , for ti - digits you used a a previous system that you had , i guess . phd b: what no it yeah , yeah . that 's true . phd e: so the alignments from the different database that are used for training came from different system . phd b: syste yeah . phd e: then we put them tog together . well , you put them together and trained the vad on them . phd b: yeah . phd e: mmm . phd b: yeah . professor g: hmm . phd e: uh , but did you use channel did you align channel one also ? or phd b: i just took their entire italian training part . phd e: yeah . phd b: so it was both channel zero plus channel one . phd e: so di yeah . so the alignments might be wrong then on channel one , right ? phd b: on one . possible . phd e: so we might , phd b: we can do a realignment . phd e: yeah , phd b: that 's true . phd e: at least want to retrain on these alignments , which should be better because they come from close - talking microphone . professor g: yeah , the that was my idea . i mean , if if it ha if it is not the same labeling which is taking the spaces . phd b: yeah . phd e: ok . phd b: yeah , possible . phd e: yeah . professor g: mmm . phd b: i mean , it so the system phd e: yeah . phd b: so the vad was trained on maybe different set of labels for channel zero and channel one phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: and professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: was the alignments were w were different for s certainly different because they were independently trained . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: we did n't copy the channel zero alignments to channel one . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . phd e: yeah . phd b: but for the new alignments what you generated , you just copied the channel zero to channel one , right ? yeah . phd e: right . yeah . um . and eh , hhh actually when we look at at the vad , for some utterances it 's almost perfect , i mean , it just dropped one frame , the first frame of speech or so there are some utterances where it 's almost one hundred percent vad performance . professor g: hmm . phd e: uh , but yeah . mmm yep . so the next thing is um , i have the spreadsheet for three different system . but for this you only have to look right now on the speechdat - car performance uh , because i did n't test so i did n't test the spectral subtraction on ti - digits yet . uh , so you have three she sheets . one is the um proposal - one system . actually , it 's not exe exactly proposal - one . it 's the system that sunil just described . um , but with uh , wiener filtering from um , france telecom included . um , so this gives like fifty - seven point seven percent , uh , s uh , error rate reduction on the speechdat - car data . mmm , and then i have two sheets where it 's for a system where uh , so it 's again the same system . but in this case we have spectral subtraction with a maximum overestimation factor of two point five . uh , there is smoothing of the gain trajectory with some kind of uh , low - pass filter , which has forty milliseconds latency . and then , after subtraction um , i add a constant to the energies and i have two cases d where the first case is where the constant is twenty - five db below the mean speech energy and the other is thirty db below . um , and for these s two system we have like fifty - five point , uh , five - percent improvement , and fifty - eight point one . so again , it 's around fifty - six , fifty - seven . uh professor d: cuz i notice the ti - digits number is exactly the same for these last two ? phd e: yeah , because i did n't for the france telecom uh , spectral subtraction included in the our system , the ti - digits number are the right one , but not for the other system because i did n't test it yet this system , including with spectral subtraction on the ti - digits data . i just tested it on speechdat - car . professor d: ah ! so so that means the only thing professor g: mm - hmm . so so so these numbers are simply phd e: this , we have to yeah . phd b: but this number . professor d: yeah . professor g: yeah . professor d: so you so you just should look at that fifty - eight perc point o nine percent and so on . phd e: yes . professor g: ok . phd e: right . right . professor d: ok . good . phd e: mm - hmm . um , yeah . phd b: so this so by uh , by by reducing the noise a a decent threshold like minus thirty db , it 's like uh , you are like r r reducing the floor of the noisy regions , right ? professor g: s phd e: yeah . yeah . the floor is lower . um , phd b: uh - huh . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: i 'm sorry . so when you say minus twenty - five or minus thirty db , with respect to what ? phd e: to the average um , speech energy which is estimated on the world database . professor d: ok , so basically you 're creating a signal - to - noise ratio of twenty - five or thirty db ? phd e: yeah . professor d: uh r phd e: but it 's not professor g: i i i think what you do is this . phd e: it it 's professor g: i when when you have this , after you subtracted it , i mean , then you get something w w with this , uh , where you set the values to zero and then you simply add an additive constant again . phd e: yeah . professor g: so you shift it somehow . this this whole curve is shifted again . professor d: but did you do that before the thresholding to zero , phd e: right . it 's professor d: or ? phd e: but , it 's after the thresholding . professor g: professor d: oh , phd e: so , professor d: so you 'd really want to do it before , phd e: maybe professor d: right ? phd e: maybe we might do it before , professor d: yeah , because then the then you would have less of that phenomenon . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor d: i think . phd e: uh professor g: e hhh . phd e: yeah . professor d: c phd e: but still , when you do this and you take the log after that , it it reduce the the variance . professor d: yeah , it it right . phd e: but mmm , professor d: yeah , that will reduce the variance . that 'll help . but maybe if you does do it before you get less of these funny - looking things he 's drawing . professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: um , phd b: so before it 's like adding this , col to the to the o exi original professor g: but but phd e: we would professor d: right at the point where you 've done the subtraction . phd b: ok . professor d: um , essentially you 're adding a constant into everything . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: but the way stephane did it , it is exactly the way i have implemented in the phone , so . professor d: oh , yeah , better do it different , then . yeah . phd e: um . professor d: just you you just ta you just set it for a particular signal - to - noise ratio that you want ? phd e: yeah . professor g: yeah i i made s similar investigations like stephane did here , just uh , adding this constant and and looking how dependent is it on the value of the constant professor d: yeah . yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: and then , must choose them somehow to give on average the best results for a certain range of the signal - to - noise ratios . professor d: uh - huh . phd e: yeah . mm - hmm . professor g: so phd e: oh , it 's clear . i should have gi given other results . also it 's clear when you do n't add noise , it 's much worse . like , around five percent worse i guess . professor d: uh - huh . phd e: and if you add too much noise it get worse also . and it seems that right now this this is c a constant that does not depend on { comment } on anything that you can learn from the utterance . it 's just a constant noise addition . um . and i i think w w professor d: i i 'm sorry . then then i 'm confused . phd e: i think professor d: i thought you 're saying it does n't depend on the utterance but i thought you were adding an amount that was twenty - five db down from the signal energy . phd e: yeah , so the way i did that , { comment } i i just measured the average speech energy of the all the italian data . professor d: oh ! phd e: and then i i have i used this as mean speech energy . mm - hmm . professor d: oh , it 's just a constant amount over all . phd e: yeah . and phd b: ok . phd e: wha what i observed is that for italian and spanish , { comment } when you go to thirty and twenty - five db , { comment } uh it it 's good . phd b: oh . phd e: it stays in this range , it 's , uh , the p u well , the performance of the this algorithm is quite good . but for finnish , you have a degradation already when you go from thirty - five to thirty and then from thirty to twenty - five . and i have the feeling that maybe it 's because just finnish has a mean energy that 's lower than than the other databases . and due to this the thresholds should be professor d: yeah . phd e: the the a the noise addition should be lower professor d: but in i mean , in the real thing you 're not gon na be able to measure what people are doing over half an hour or an hour , or anything , right ? phd e: and professor d: so you have to come up with this number from something else . phd e: yeah . so professor g: uh , but you are not doing it now language dependent ? or ? phd e: it 's not . it 's just something that 's fixed . professor g: no . it 's overall . phd e: yeah . professor g: ok . phd e: mm - hmm . um professor d: but what he is doing language dependent is measuring what that number i reference is that he comes down twenty - five down from . phd e: yeah , so i g no . it no . professor d: no ? phd e: because i did it i started working on italian . i obtained this average energy professor d: yeah . phd e: and then i used this one . phd b: for all the languages . ok . phd e: yeah . professor d: so it 's sort of arbitrary . phd b: yeah . professor d: i mean , so if y if yeah . phd e: yep . professor d: yeah . phd e: um , yeah , so the next thing is to use this as as maybe initialization professor d: uh - huh . phd e: and then use something on - line . professor d: something more adaptive , phd e: but and i expect improvement at least in finnish because eh the way professor d: yeah . ok . phd e: well , um , for italian and spanish it 's th this value works good but not necessarily for finnish . mmm . but unfortunately there is , like , this forty millisecond latency and , um yeah , so i would try to somewhat reduce this @ @ . i already know that if i completely remove this latency , so . um , { comment } it um there is a three percent hit on italian . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: d does latency professor g: i phd b: sorry . go ahead . professor g: yeah . your your smoothing was @ @ { comment } uh , over this s so to say , the the factor of the wiener . and then it 's , uh what was it ? this phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: this smoothing , it was over the subtraction factor , so to say . phd e: it 's a smoothing over the the gain of the subtraction algorithm . professor g: was this done mm - hmm . and and you are looking into the future , into the past . phd e: right . professor g: and smoothing . phd e: so , to smooth this thing . professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: yeah . um professor g: and did did you try simply to smooth um to smooth the the t to to smooth stronger the the envelope ? phd e: um , no , i did not . professor g: mmm . phd e: mmm . professor g: because i mean , it should have a similar effect if you phd e: yeah . professor g: i mean , you you have now several stages of smoothing , so to say . you start up . as far as i remember you you smooth somehow the envelope , you smooth somehow the noise estimate , phd e: mm - hmm . mmm professor g: and and later on you smooth also this subtraction factor . phd e: uh , no , it 's it 's just the gain that 's smoothed actually phd b: uh , actually i d i do all the smoothing . phd e: but it 's smoothed professor g: ah . oh , it w it was you . phd b: yeah , yeah . phd e: uh yeah . professor g: yeah . phd e: yeah . no , in this case it 's just the gain . professor g: yeah . phd e: and professor g: uh - huh . phd e: but the way it 's done is that um , for low gain , there is this non nonlinear smoothing actually . for low gains um , i use the smoothed sm uh , smoothed version but for high gain @ @ { comment } it 's i do n't smooth . professor g: uh . mm - hmm . i just , uh it experience shows you , if if you do the the best is to do the smoo smoothing as early as possible . phd e: uh - huh . professor g: so w when you start up . i mean , you start up with the with the somehow with the noisy envelope . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: and , best is to smooth this somehow . phd e: mm - hmm . uh , yeah , i could try this . um . professor g: and phd b: so , before estimating the snr , @ @ smooth the envelope . professor g: yeah . yeah . uh - huh . phd e: mm - hmm . but yeah . then i i would need to find a way to like smooth less also when there is high energy . cuz i noticed that it it helps a little bit to s like smooth more during low energy portions and less during speech , professor g: yes , y phd e: because if you smooth then y you kind of distort the speech . professor g: yeah . yeah . phd e: um . professor g: right . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah , i think when w you you could do it in this way that you say , if you if i 'm you have somehow a noise estimate , phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: and , if you say i 'm i 'm with my envelope i 'm close to this noise estimate , phd e: yeah . professor g: then you have a bad signal - to - noise ratio and then you you would like to have a stronger smoothing . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: so you could you could base it on your estimation of the signal - to - noise ratio on your actual phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mmm . phd b: yeah , or some silence probability from the vad if you have phd e: um , yeah , but i do n't trust the current vad . so . phd b: yeah , uh , so not not right now maybe . phd e: well , maybe . professor d: the vad later will be much better . phd e: maybe . professor d: yeah . so . i see . phd f: so is that it ? phd e: uh , fff { comment } i think that 's it . yeah . uh . professor g: s so to summarize the performance of these , speechdat - car results is similar than than yours so to say . phd b: yeah , so the fifty - eight is like the be some fifty - six point phd e: yeah . professor g: y you have you have fifty - six point four phd b: yeah , that 's true . professor g: and and and dependent on this additive constant , it is s better or or worse . phd e: yeah . phd b: slightly better . phd e: mm - hmm . phd h: phd b: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah . phd e: and , yeah , i i i the condition where it 's better than your approach , it 's it just because maybe it 's better on well matched and that the weight on well matched is is bigger , phd b: yeah . yeah , you you caught up . phd e: because phd b: yep , that 's true . phd e: if you do n't weigh differently the different condition , you can see that your well , the win the two - stage wiener filtering is maybe better or phd b: yeah . phd e: it 's better for high mismatch , right ? phd b: yeah , it 's better for high mismatch . phd e: mm - hmm . but a little bit worse for well matched . phd b: so over all it gets , yeah , worse for the well matched condition , so y phd e: uh - huh . phd f: so we need to combine these two . phd b: uh , that 's that 's the best thing , is like the french telecom system is optimized for the well matched condition . they c phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . so they know that the weighting is good for the well matched , and so there 's everywhere the well matched 's s s performance is very good for the french telecom . phd e: yeah . professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: t we are we may also have to do something similar @ @ . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: well , our tradition here has always been to focus on the mismatched . phd b: um the professor d: cuz it 's more interesting . professor g: mu - my mine was it too , i mean . professor d: yeah . professor g: before i started working on this aurora . professor d: yeah . professor g: so . professor d: yeah . yeah . ok . phd f: carmen ? do you , uh phd h: well , i only say that the this is , a summary of the of all the vts experiments and say that the result in the last { comment } um , for italian the last experiment for italian , are bad . i make a mistake when i write . up at d i copy one of the bad result . phd b: so you phd h: and there . you know , this . um , well . if we put everything , we improve a lot u the spectral use of the vts but the final result are not still mmm , good like the wiener filter for example . i do n't know . maybe it 's @ @ { comment } it 's possible to to have the same result . phd b: that 's somewhere phd h: i do n't know exactly . mmm . because i have , mmm , { comment } worse result in medium mismatch and high mismatch . phd b: you s you have a better r yeah . you have some results that are good for the high mismatch . phd h: and yeah . i someti are more or less similar but but are worse . and still i do n't have the result for ti - digits . the program is training . maybe for this weekend i will have result ti - digits and i can complete that s like this . well . professor d: uh . right . phd h: one thing that i { comment } note are not here in this result but are speak are spoken before with sunil i i improve my result using clean lda filter . phd b: mm - hmm . professor d: mm - hmm . phd h: if i use , eh , the lda filter that are training with the noisy speech , that hurts the res my results . professor d: so what are these numbers here ? are these with the clean or with the noisy ? phd h: this is with the clean . professor d: ok . phd h: with the noise i have worse result , that if i does n't use it . professor d: uh - huh . phd h: but m that may be because with this technique we are using really really clean speech . the speech the { comment } representation that go to the htk is really clean speech because it 's from the dictionary , the code book and maybe from that . i do n't know . phd e: mm - hmm . phd h: because i think that you did some experiments using the two the two lda filter , clean and noi and noise , phd e: it 's phd h: and it does n't matter too much . phd e: um , yeah , i did that but it does n't matter on speechdat - car , but , it matters , uh , a lot on ti - digits . phd b: using the clean filter . phd h: it 's better to use clean . phd e: yeah , d uh , it 's much better when you we used the clean derived lda filter . phd h: mm - hmm . maybe you can do d also this . phd b: yeah . phd h: to use clean speech . phd b: yeah , i 'll try . phd e: uh , but , yeah , sunil in in your result it 's phd b: i i 'll try the cle no , i i my result is with the noisy noisy lda . phd e: it 's with the noisy one . yeah . phd b: yeah . professor d: oh ! phd b: it 's with the noisy . yeah . it 's it 's not the clean lda . phd e: so professor d: um phd b: it 's in in the front sheet , i have like like the summary . yeah . professor d: and and your result { comment } is with the phd e: it 's with the clean lda . phd b: oh . this is your results are all with the clean lda result ? phd h: yeah , with the clean lda . phd b: ok . @ @ . phd e: yeah . phd b: phd e: and in your case it 's all all noisy , phd h: is that the reason ? phd b: all noisy , yeah . phd e: yeah . but phd h: and phd b: uh phd e: yeah . phd b: uh phd e: but i observe my case it 's in , uh , uh , at least on speechdat - car it does n't matter but ti - digits it 's like two or three percent absolute , uh , { comment } better . phd b: on ti - digits this matters . absolute . uh professor d: so you really might wan na try the clean i think . phd e: so if phd b: yeah , i i i will have to look at it . yeah , that 's true . professor d: yeah . yeah , that could be sizeable right there . phd h: and this is everything . professor g: yeah . professor d: ok . professor g: maybe you you are leaving in in about two weeks carmen . no ? phd h: yeah . professor g: yeah . so i mean , if if if i would put it put on the head of a project mana manager i i i i would say , uh , um i mean there is not so much time left now . professor d: be my guest . professor g: i mean , if um , what what i would do is i i i would pick @ @ { comment } the best consolation , which you think , and c create create all the results for the whole database that you get to the final number as as sunil did it phd h: and prepare at the s professor g: and um and maybe also to to write somehow a document where you describe your approach , and what you have done . phd h: yeah , i was thinking to do that next week . professor d: yeah . professor g: yeah . professor d: yeah , i 'll i 'll borrow the head back and and agree . yeah , phd h: yeah , i wi i i will do that next week . professor d: that 's that 's right . in fact , actually i g i guess the , uh the spanish government , uh , requires that anyway . they want some kind of report from everybody who 's in the program . phd h: mm - hmm . professor d: so . and of course i 'd we 'd we 'd like to see it too . so , phd h: ok . professor d: yeah . phd f: so , um , what 's do you think we , uh , should do the digits or skip it ? or what are what do you think ? professor d: uh , we have them now ? phd f: yeah , got them . professor d: uh , why don why do n't we do it ? phd f: ok . professor d: just { comment } just take a minute . phd h: i can send yet . phd f: would you pass those down ? professor d: oh ! sorry . phd f: ok , um , so i guess i 'll go ahead . um , professor d: seat ? phd e: dave ? is it the channel , or the mike ? i do n't remember . it 's the mike ? professor d: mike ? phd e: it 's not four . phd h: this is date and time . no . on the channel , channel . professor g: what is this ? phd b: t phd f: ok , if you could just leave , um , your mike on top of your , uh , digit form i can fill in any information that 's missing . professor g: ok . phd f: that 's uh i did n't get a chance to fill them out ahead of time . yeah , we 're gon na have to fix that . uh , let 's see , it starts with one here , and then goes around and ends with nine here . grad a: seven . so i i 'm eight , phd f: so he 's eight , grad a: you 're seven . phd f: you 're seven , grad a: yeah .

too much noise was causing the model to perform worse , so the noise addition was constant and not too high . the overall improvement was good . the smoothing for the average for noise addition was only done on low gains . the model performed better on high mismatch .

what did the team discuss about high mismatch ? </s> phd f: and we 're on . professor d: ok . might wan na close the door so that uh , stephane will phd f: i 'll get it . professor d: yeah phd f: hey dave ? could you go ahead and turn on , uh , stephane 's grad c: mm - hmm . professor d: so that 's the virtual stephane over there . phd f: ok . professor g: do you use a pc for recording ? or phd f: uh , yeah , a linux box . yeah . it 's got , uh , like sixteen channels going into it . professor g: uh - huh . uh - huh . the quality is quite good ? or ? phd f: mm - hmm . yeah , so far , it 's been pretty good . professor g: mm - hmm . professor d: yeah . so , uh , yeah the suggestion was to have these guys start to phd f: ok . why do n't you go ahead , dave ? grad c: ok . um , so , yeah , the this past week i 've been main mainly occupied with , um , getting some results , u from the sri system trained on this short hub - five training set for the mean subtraction method . and , um , i ran some tests last night . but , um , c the results are suspicious . um , it 's , um , cuz they 're the baseline results are worse than , um , andreas than results andreas got previously . and it could have something to do with , um phd f: that 's on digits ? grad c: that 's on digits . it c it it could h it could have something to do with , um , downsampling . phd f: hmm . grad c: that 's that 's worth looking into . um , d and , um , ap ap apart from that , i guess the the main thing i have t ta i have to talk is , um , where i 'm planning to go over the next week . um . so i 've been working on integrating this mean subtraction approach into the smartkom system . and there 's this question of , well , so , um , in my tests before with htk i found it worked it worked the best with about twelve seconds of data used to estimate the mean , but , we 'll often have less { comment } in the smartkom system . um . so i think we 'll use as much data as we have at a particular time , and we 'll we 'll concatenate utterances together , um , to get as much data as we possibly can from the user . but , um , there 's a question of how to set up the models . so um , we could train the models . if we think twelve seconds is ideal we could train the models using twelve seconds to calculate the mean , to mean subtract the training data . or we could , um , use some other amount . so like i did an experiment where i , um , was using six seconds in test , um , but , for i tried twelve seconds in train . and i tried , um , um , the same in train i 'm a i tried six seconds in train . and six seconds in train was about point three percent better . um , and um , it 's not clear to me yet whether that 's something significant . so i wan na do some tests and , um , actually make some plots of , um for a particular amount of data and test what happens if you vary the amount of data in train . phd f: mm - hmm . professor d: uh , guenter , i do n't know if you t followed this stuff but this is , uh , a uh , uh , long - term long - term window f f yeah . yeah , he you talked about it . professor g: yeah , we we spoke about it already , professor d: oh , ok . so you know what he 's doing . professor g: yeah . professor d: alright . grad c: y s so i was i actually ran the experiments mostly and i i was i was hoping to have the plots with me today . i just did n't get to it . but , um yeah , i wou i would be curious about people 's feedback on this cuz i 'm @ @ { comment } i p i think there are some i think it 's it 's kind of like a a bit of a tricky engineering problem . i 'm trying to figure out what 's the optimal way to set this up . so , um , i 'll try to make the plots and then put some postscript up on my on my web page . and i 'll mention it in my status report if people wan na take a look . professor d: you could clarify something for me . you 're saying point three percent , you take a point three percent hit , when the training and testing links are do n't match or something ? phd e: hello . professor d: is that what it is ? grad c: w well , it c professor d: or ? grad c: i i do n't think it it 's just for any mismatch you take a hit . professor d: yeah . grad c: i in some cases it might be u better to have a mismatch . like i think i saw something like like if you only have two seconds in test , or , um , maybe it was something like four seconds , you actually do a little better if you , um , train on six seconds than if you train on four seconds . professor d: yeah . right . grad c: um , but the case , uh with the point three percent hit was using six seconds in test , um , comparing train on twelve seconds { comment } versus train on six seconds . professor d: and which was worse ? grad c: the train on twelve seconds . professor d: ok . but point three percent , uh , w from what to what ? that 's point three percent grad c: on the the the accuracies w went from it was something vaguely like ninety - five point six accuracy , um , improved to ninety - five point nine wh when i professor d: so four point four to four point one . grad c: ok . professor d: so yeah . so about a about an eight percent , uh , seven or eight percent relative ? grad c: ok . professor d: uh , yeah . well , i think in a p you know , if if you were going for an evaluation system you 'd care . but if you were doing a live system that people were actually using nobody would notice . it 's uh , i think the thing is to get something that 's practical , that that you could really use . grad c: huh . that 's that 's interesting . alright , the e uh , i see your point . i guess i was thinking of it as , um , an interesting research problem . the how to g i was thinking that for the asru paper we could have a section saying , `` for smartkom , we we d in we tried this approach in , uh , interactive system `` , which i do n't think has been done before . professor d: yeah . mm - hmm . grad c: and and then there was two research questions from that . professor d: mm - hmm . grad c: and one is the k does it still work if you just use the past history ? professor d: mm - hmm . grad c: alright , and the other was this question of , um what i was just talking about now . so i guess that 's why i thought it was interesting . professor d: i mean , a short - time fft short - time cepstrum calculation , uh , mean u mean calculation work that people have in commercial systems , they do this all the time . they the they calculate it from previous utterances and then use it , you know . grad c: yeah , um . professor d: but but , uh , as you say , there has n't been that much with this long long - time , uh , spectra work . grad c: oh , o oh , ok . professor d: uh , grad c: so that 's that 's that 's standard . um professor d: yeah . pretty common . grad c: ok . professor d: yeah . um , but , u uh , yes . no , it is interesting . and the other thing is , i mean , there 's two sides to these really small , uh , gradations in performance . um , i mean , on the one hand in a practical system if something is , uh , four point four percent error , four point one percent error , people wo n't really tell be able to tell the difference . on the other hand , when you 're doing , uh , research , you may , eh you might find that the way that you build up a change from a ninety - five percent accurate system to a ninety - eight percent accurate system is through ten or twelve little things that you do that each are point three percent . so so the they they it 's i do n't mean to say that they 're they 're irrelevant . uh , they are relevant . but , um , i for a demo , you wo n't see it . grad c: mm - hmm . right . ok . professor d: yeah . grad c: and , um , let 's l let 's see . um , ok . and then there 's um , another thing i wan na start looking at , um , wi is , um , the choice of the analysis window length . so i 've just been using two seconds just because that 's what carlos did before . uh , i wrote to him asking about he chose the two seconds . and it seemed like he chose it a bit informally . so , um , with the with the htk set - up i should be able to do some experiments , on just varying that length , say between one and three seconds , in a few different reverberation conditions , um , say this room and also a few of the artificial impulse responses we have for reverberation , just , um , making some plots and seeing how they look . and , um , so , with the the sampling rate i was using , one second or two seconds or four seconds is at a power of two um , number of samples and , um , i 'll i 'll jus f for the ones in between i guess i 'll just zero - pad . professor d: mm - hmm . i guess one thing that might also be an issue , uh , cuz part of what you 're doing is you 're getting a a spectrum over a bunch of different kinds of speech sounds . um , and so it might matter how fast someone was talking for instance . grad c: oh . professor d: you know , if you if if if there 's a lot of phones in one second maybe you 'll get a a really good sampling of all these different things , and and , uh , on the other hand if someone 's talking slowly maybe you 'd need more . so grad c: huh . professor d: i do n't know if you have some samples of faster or slower speech but it might make a difference . i do n't know . grad c: uh , yeah , i do n't i do n't think the ti - digits data that i have , um , i is would be appropriate for that . professor d: yeah , probably not . yeah . grad c: but what do you what about if i w i fed it through some kind of , um , speech processing algorithm that changed the speech rate ? professor d: yeah , but then you 'll have the degradation of of , uh , whatever you do uh , added onto that . but maybe . yeah , maybe if you get something that sounds that that 's does a pretty job at that . grad c: yeah . well , uh , just if you think it 's worth looking into . professor d: you could imagine that . grad c: i mean , it it is getting a little away from reverberation . professor d: um , yeah . it 's just that you 're making a choice uh , i was thinking more from the system aspect , if you 're making a choice for smartkom , that that that it might be that it 's it c the optimal number could be different , depending on grad c: yeah . right . professor d: could be . i do n't know . grad c: and and th the third thing , um , uh , is , um , barry explained lda filtering to me yesterday . and so , um , mike shire in his thesis um , did a a series of experiments , um , training lda filters in d on different conditions . and you were interested in having me repeat this for for this mean subtraction approach ? is is that right ? or for these long analysis windows , i guess , is the right way to put it . professor d: i guess , the the the issue i was the general issue i was bringing up was that if you 're have a moving moving window , uh , a wa a a set of weights times things that , uh , move along , shift along in time , that you have in fact a linear time invariant filter . and you just happened to have picked a particular one by setting all the weights to be equal . and so the issue is what are some other filters that you could use , uh , in that sense of `` filter `` ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor d: and , um , as i was saying , i think the simplest thing to do is not to train anything , but just to do some sort of , uh , uh , hamming or hanning , uh , kind of window , kind of thing , grad c: right . mm - hmm . professor d: just sort of to de - emphasize the jarring . so i think that would sort of be the first thing to do . but then , yeah , the lda i uh , is interesting because it would sort of say well , suppose you actually trained this up to do the best you could by some criterion , what would the filter look like then ? grad c: uh - huh . professor d: uh , and , um , that 's sort of what we 're doing in this aur - aurora stuff . and , uh , it 's still not clear to me in the long run whether the best thing to do would be to do that or to have some stylized version of the filter that looks like these things you 've trained up , because you always have the problem that it 's trained up for one condition and it is n't quite right for another . so . uh that 's that 's why that 's why rasta filter has actually ended up lasting a long time , people still using it quite a bit , because y you do n't change it . so does n't get any worse . uh , grad c: huh . professor d: anyway . grad c: o ok . so , um , a actually i was just thinking about what i was asking about earlier , wi which is about having less than say twelve seconds in the smartkom system to do the mean subtraction . you said in systems where you use cepstral mean subtraction , they concatenate utterances and , do you know how they address this issue of , um , testing versus training ? can professor d: go ahead . professor g: i think what they do is they do it always on - line , i mean , that you just take what you have from the past , that you calculate the mean of this and subtract the mean . grad c: ok . um professor g: and then you can yeah , you you can increase your window whi while you get while you are getting more samples . grad c: ok , um , and , um , so so in tha in that case , wh what do they do when they 're t um , performing the cepstral mean subtraction on the training data ? so because you 'd have hours and hours of training data . so do they cut it off and start over ? at intervals ? or ? professor g: so do you have uh , you you mean you have files which are hours of hours long ? or ? grad c: oh , well , no . i guess not . but professor g: yeah . i mean , usually you have in the training set you have similar conditions , i mean , file lengths are , i guess the same order or in the same size as for test data , or are n't they ? grad c: ok . but it 's ok . so if someone 's interacting with the system , though , uh , morgan uh , morgan said that you would tend to , um , chain utterances together um , r professor d: well , i think what i was s i thought what i was saying was that , um , at any given point you are gon na start off with what you had from before . grad c: oh . professor d: from and so if you 're splitting things up into utterances so , for instance , in a dialogue system , { comment } where you 're gon na be asking , uh , you know , th for some information , there 's some initial th something . and , you know , the first time out you you might have some general average . but you you d you do n't have very much information yet . but at after they 've given one utterance you 've got something . you can compute your mean cepstra from that , grad c: mm - hmm . professor d: and then can use it for the next thing that they say , uh , so that , you know , the performance should be better that second time . um , and i think the heuristics of exactly how people handle that and how they handle their training i 'm sure vary from place to place . but i think the ideally , it seems to me anyway , that you you would wan na do the same thing in training as you do in test . but that 's that 's just , uh , a prejudice . and i think anybody working on this with some particular task would experiment . grad c: right . i g i guess the question i had was , um , amount of data e u was the amount of data that you 'd give it to , um update this estimate . because say you if you have say five thousand utterances in your training set , um , and you you keep the mean from the last utterance , by the time it gets to the five thousandth utterance professor d: no , but those are all different people with different i mean , i in y so for instance , in in the in a telephone task , these are different phone calls . so you do n't wan na @ @ { comment } chain it together from a from a different phone call . grad c: ok , so so so they would g s professor d: so it 's within speaker , within phone call , professor g: yeah . professor d: if it 's a dialogue system , it 's within whatever this characteristic you 're trying to get rid of is expected to be consistent over , professor g: hmm . grad c: r and it professor d: right ? grad c: right . ok , so you 'd you and so in training you would start over at at every new phone call or at every new speaker . yeah , professor d: yeah . grad c: ok . professor d: yeah . now , you know , maybe you 'd use something from the others just because at the beginning of a call you do n't know anything , and so you might have some kind of general thing that 's your best guess to start with . but so , s i i you know , a lot of these things are proprietary so we 're doing a little bit of guesswork here . i mean , what do comp what do people do who really face these problems in the field ? well , they have companies and they do n't tell other people exactly what they do . grad c: r right . professor d: but but i mean , when you the the hints that you get from what they when they talk about it are that they do they all do something like this . grad c: right , ok . i see . bec - because i so this smartkom task first off , it 's this tv and movie information system . professor d: yeah , but you might have somebody who 's using it grad c: and yeah . professor d: and then later you might have somebody else who 's using it . grad c: yeah . right . right . i i see . professor d: and so you 'd wan na set some grad c: i was i was about to say . so if if you ask it `` what what movies are on tv tonight ? `` , professor d: yeah . yeah . grad c: if i look at my wristwatch when i say that it 's about two seconds . the way i currently have the mean subtraction , um , set up , the the analysis window is two seconds . professor d: yeah . grad c: so what you just said , about what do you start with , raises a question of what do i start with then ? professor d: mm - hmm . grad c: i guess it because professor d: well , w ok , so in that situation , though , th maybe what 's a little different there , is i think you 're talking about there 's only one it it it also depends we 're getting a little off track here . grad c: oh , right . professor d: r but but but uh , there 's been some discussion about whether the work we 're doing in that project is gon na be for the kiosk or for the mobile or for both . and i think for this kind of discussion it matters . if it 's in the kiosk , then the physical situation is the same . it 's gon na you know , the exact interaction of the microphone 's gon na differ depending on the person and so forth . but at least the basic acoustics are gon na be the same . so f if it 's really in one kiosk , then i think that you could just chain together and and you know , as much as much speech as possible to because what you 're really trying to get at is the is the reverberation characteristic . grad c: yeah . professor d: but in in the case of the mobile , uh , { comment } presumably the acoustic 's changing all over the place . grad c: right . professor d: and in that case you probably do n't wan na have it be endless because you wan na have some sort of it 's it 's not a question of how long do you think it 's you can get an approximation to a stationary something , given that it 's not really stationary . grad c: right . right . professor d: so . professor g: hmm . grad c: and i i g i guess i s just started thinking of another question , which is , for for the very first frame , w what what do i do if i 'm if i take if i use that frame to calculate the mean , then i 'm just gon na get n nothing . professor d: mm - hmm . grad c: um , professor d: right . grad c: so i should probably have some kind of default mean for the first f couple of frames ? professor d: yeah . yeah . grad c: ok . professor d: yeah . or subtract nothing . i mean , it 's grad c: or subtract nothing . and and that 's that 's i guess that 's something that 's p people have figured out how to deal with in cepstral mean subtraction as well ? professor d: yeah , yeah . yeah , people do something . they they , uh , they have some , um , uh , in in cepstral mean subtraction , for short - term window analysis windows , as is usually done , you 're trying to get rid of some very general characteristic . and so , uh , if you have any other information about what a general kind of characteristic would be , then you you can do it there . phd f: you can also you can also reflect the data . so you take , uh you know , i 'm not sure how many frames you need . grad c: uh - huh . phd f: but you take that many from the front and flip it around to a as the negative value . professor d: yeah , that 's yeah . phd f: so you can always professor d: the other thing is that and and i i remember b b n doing this , is that if you have a multi - pass system , um , if the first pass ta it takes most of the computation , the second and the third pass could be very , very quick , grad c: mmm . professor d: just looking at a relatively small n small , uh , space of hypotheses . grad c: uh - huh . professor d: then you can do your first pass without any subtraction at all . grad c: oh . professor d: and then your second pass , uh , uh , eliminates those most of those hypotheses by , uh by having an improved improved version o of the analysis . grad c: ok . ok . professor d: so . grad c: ok . so that was all i had , for now . professor d: yeah . phd f: do you wan na go , barry ? grad a: yeah , ok . um , so for the past , uh , week an or two , i 've been just writing my , uh , formal thesis proposal . um , so i 'm taking this qualifier exam that 's coming up in two weeks . and i i finish writing a proposal and submit it to the committee . um . and uh , should i should i explain , uh , more about what what i 'm proposing to do , and s and stuff ? professor d: yes , briefly . phd f: yeah briefly . grad a: ok . um , so briefly , i 'm proposing to do a n a new p approach to speech recognition using um , a combination of , uh , multi - band ideas and ideas , um , { comment } about the uh , acoustic phonec phonetic approach to speech recognition . um , so i will be using these graphical models that um , that implement the multi - band approach to recognize a set of intermediate categories that might involve , uh , things like phonetic features or other other f feature things that are more closely related to the acoustic signal itself . um , and the hope in all of this is that by going multi - band and by going into these , um intermediate classifications , that we can get a system that 's more robust to to unseen noises , and situations like that . um , and so , some of the research issues involved in this are , um , { comment } one , what kind of intermediate categories do we need to classify ? um , another one is um , what what other types of structures in these multi - band graphical models should we consider in order to um , combine evidence from the sub - bands ? and , uh , the third one is how do we how do we merge all the , uh , information from the individual uh , multi - band classifiers to come up with word word recognition or or phone recognition things . um , so basically that 's that 's what i 've been doing . and , phd f: so you 've got two weeks , huh ? grad a: i got two weeks to brush up on d um , presentation stuff and , um , professor d: oh , i thought you were finishing your thesis in two weeks . grad a: but . oh , that too . professor d: yeah . grad a: yeah . phd f: are you gon na do any dry runs for your thing , grad a: yes . phd f: or are you just gon na grad a: yes . i , um i 'm i 'm gon na do some . would you be interested ? to help out ? phd f: sure . grad a: ok . phd f: sure . grad a: thanks . yeah . phd f: is that it ? grad a: that 's it . phd f: hhh . ok . uh . hhh . let 's see . so we 've got forty minutes left , and it seems like there 's a lot of material . an - any suggestions about where we where we should go next ? phd b: mmm , @ @ . phd f: uh . do you wan na go , sunil ? maybe we 'll just start with you . phd b: yeah . but i actually stuck most of this in our m last meeting with guenter . um , but i 'll just um , so the last week , uh , i showed some results with only speechdat - car which was like some fifty - six percent . and , uh , i did n't h i mean , i i found that the results i mean , i was n't getting that r results on the ti - digit . so i was like looking into `` why , what is wrong with the ti - digits ? `` . why why i was not getting it . and i found that , the noise estimation is a reason for the ti - digits to perform worse than the baseline . so , uh , i actually , picked th i mean , the first thing i did was i just scaled the noise estimate by a factor which is less than one to see if that because i found there are a lot of zeros in the spectrogram for the ti - digits when i used this approach . so the first thing i did was i just scaled the noise estimate . and i found so the the results that i 've shown here are the complete results using the new well , the n the new technique is nothing but the noise estimate scaled by a factor of point five . so it 's just an ad - hoc i mean , some intermediate result , because it 's not optimized for anything . so the results the trend the only trend i could see from those results was like the the p the current noise estimation or the , uh , noise composition scheme is working good for like the car noise type of thing . because i 've the only only p very good result in the ti - digits is the noise car noise condition for their test - a , which is like the best i could see that uh , for any non - stationary noise like `` babble `` or `` subway `` or any `` street `` , some `` restaurant `` noise , it 's like it 's not performing w very well . so , the so that that 's the first thing i c uh , i could make out from this stuff . and professor g: yeah , i think what is important to see is that there is a big difference between the training modes . phd b: yeah . professor g: uh - huh . if you have clean training , you get also a fifty percent improvement . phd b: yeah . professor g: but if you have muddy condition training you get only twenty percent . phd b: yeah . yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: uh , and in that twenty percent @ @ it 's very inconsistent across different noise conditions . professor g: mm - hmm . mmm . phd b: so i have like a forty - five percent for `` car noise `` and then there 's a minus five percent for the `` babble `` , professor g: mmm . phd b: and there 's this thirty - three for the `` station `` . and so it 's it 's not it 's not actually very consistent across . so . the only correlation between the speechdat - car and this performance is the c stationarity of the noise that is there in these conditions and the speechdat - car . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: and , uh so so the overall result is like in the last page , which is like forty - seven , which is still very imbalanced because there are like fifty - six percent on the speechdat - car and thirty - five percent on the ti - digits . and uh , ps the fifty - six percent is like comparable to what the french telecom gets , but the thirty - five percent is way off . professor d: i 'm sort of confused but this i 'm looking on the second page , phd b: oh , yep . professor d: and it says `` fifty percent `` looking in the lower right - hand corner , `` fifty percent relative performance `` . professor g: for the clean training . professor d: is that professor g: u and if you if you look professor d: is that fifty percent improvement ? phd b: yeah . for that 's for the clean training and the noisy testing for the ti - digits . professor g: yeah . professor d: so it 's improvement over the baseline mel cepstrum ? phd b: yeah . yeah . professor d: but the baseline mel cepstrum under those training does n't do as well i i 'm i 'm trying to understand why it 's it 's eighty percent that 's an accuracy number , i guess , phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah . professor d: right ? so that 's not as good as the one up above . phd b: no . professor d: but the fifty is better than the one up above , phd b: yeah . professor d: so i 'm confused . phd b: uh , actually the noise compensation whatever , uh , we are put in it works very well for the high mismatch condition . i mean , it 's consistent in the speechdat - car and in the clean training also it gives it but this fifty percent is is that the the high mismatch performance equivalent to the high mismatch performance in the speech . phd f: so n s so since the high mismatch performance is much worse to begin with , it 's easier to get a better relative improvement . phd b: yeah . yeah . i do . yeah , yeah . so by putting this noise phd e: yeah . yeah , if we look at the figures on the right , we see that the reference system is very bad . professor d: oh . phd b: yeah . the reference drops like a very fast professor d: oh , oh , oh , oh , oh , oh . phd e: like for clean clean training condition . professor d: i see . phd b: yeah . professor d: i see . phd e: nnn . professor d: this is this is ti digits { comment } we 're looking at ? phd b: yeah . yeah . oh professor d: this whole page is ti - digits phd b: oh . yeah . professor d: or this is ? phd b: it 's not written anywhere . yeah , it 's ti - digits . the first r spreadsheet is ti - digits . professor d: mmm . how does clean training do for the , uh , `` car `` professor g: hmm . phd b: the `` car `` ? professor d: stuff ? phd b: oh . still it still , uh that that 's still consistent . i mean , i get the best performance in the case of `` car `` , which is the third column in the a condition . professor d: no . i mean , this is added noise . i mean , this is ti - digits . i 'm sorry . i meant in in the in the , uh , multi - language , uh , uh , finnish and phd b: uh professor g: this is next next page . phd b: that 's the next next spreadsheet , is professor g: hmm . phd b: so that is the performance for italian , finnish and spanish . professor d: `` training condition `` oh , right . so `` clean `` corresponds to `` high mismatch `` . phd b: yeah . professor d: and `` increase `` , that 's increase e professor g: improvement . phd b: improvement . that 's `` percentage increase `` is the percentage improvement over the baseline . professor g: yeah . it 's it 's a phd b: so that 's professor d: which means decrease in word error rate ? phd b: yeah . professor d: ok , so `` percentage increase `` means decrease ? phd b: yeah , yeah . professor d: ok . professor g: yeah . the the w there was a very long discussion about this on on the on the , uh , amsterdam meeting . professor d: yeah . professor g: how to how to calculate it then . phd b: yeah . there 's there 's a professor g: i i i guess you are using finally this the scheme which they phd b: which is there in the spreadsheet . professor g: ok . phd b: i 'm not changing anything in there . professor g: mmm . professor d: alright . phd b: so . uh , yeah . so all the hi h m numbers are w very good , in the sense , they are better than what the french telecom gets . so . but the the only number that 's still i mean , which stephane also got in his result was that medium mismatch of the finnish , which is very which is a very strange situation where we used the we changed the proto for initializing the hmm i mean , this this is basically because it gets stuck in some local minimum in the training . that seventy - five point seven nine in the finnish mismatch which is that the eleven point nine six what we see . professor d: uh - huh . professor g: mmm . phd b: yeah . professor d: so we have to jiggle it somehow ? phd b: yeah so we start with that different proto and it becomes eighty - eight , which is like some fifty percent improvement . professor d: s wait a minute . start with a different what ? phd b: different prototype , which is like a different initialization for the , uh , s transition probabilities . it 's just that right now , the initialization is to stay more in the current state , which is point four point six , right ? yeah . phd e: yeah . phd b: and if it changes to point five point five , which is equal @ @ for transition and self loop where it becomes eighty - eight percent . phd f: well , but that involves mucking with the back - end , phd b: yeah . we ca n't do it . phd f: which is not allowed . phd b: yeah . phd e: mmm . phd f: yeah . phd b: so . professor g: i mean , it uh , like , i i i it is well known , this this medium match condition of the finnish data has some strange effects . phd b: very s phd e: yeah . phd b: it has a very few at uh , actually , c uh , tran i mean , words also . professor g: i mean , that is yeah , phd b: it 's a very , very small set , actually . professor g: that too . yeah . uh - huh . phd b: so there is professor g: there is a l a there is a lot of uh , there are a lot of utterances with music in with music in the background . phd b: yeah . yeah , yeah , yeah . yeah . professor g: mmm . professor d: uh - huh . phd b: yeah . it has some music also . i mean , very horrible music like like i know . professor d: so maybe for that one you need a much smarter vad ? mmm , phd b: uh professor d: if it 's music . phd b: so , that that 's the that 's about the results . and , uh , the summary is like ok . so there are the other thing what i tried was , which i explained in the last meeting , is using the channel zero for , uh , for both dropping and estimating the noise . and that 's like just to f n get a feel of how good it is . i guess the fifty - six percent improvement in the speechdat - car becomes like sixty - seven percent . like ten percent better . but that 's that 's not a that 's a cheating experiment . so . that 's just so , m w professor g: but the but the , uh , forty - seven point nine percent which you have now , that 's already a remarkable improvement in comparison to the first proposal . phd b: yeah . so we had forty - four percent in the first proposal . professor g: ok . phd b: yeah . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: we have f a big im so the major improvement that we got was in all the high mismatch cases , because all those numbers were in sixties and seventies because we never had any noise compensations . professor g: mmm . phd b: so that 's where the biggest improvement came up . not much in the well match and the medium match and ti - digits also right now . so this is still at three or four percent improvement over the first proposal . professor g: mmm . mmm . professor d: yeah , so that 's good . phd b: yeah . so . professor d: then if we can improve the noise estimation , then it should get better . professor g: yeah , i i started thinking about also i mean yeah , uh , i discovered the same problem when i started working on uh , on this aurora task almost two years ago , that you have the problem with this mulit a at the beginning we had only this multi condition training of the ti - digits . phd b: yeah . professor g: and , uh , i i found the same problem . just taking um , what we were used to u use , i mean , uh , some type of spectral subtraction , { comment } y you get even worse results than the basis phd b: yeah . yeah , professor g: and uh phd b: yeah . professor g: i i tried to find an explanation for it , professor d: mmm . professor g: so phd b: so . yes . stephane also has the same experience of using the spectral subtraction right ? professor g: mmm . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . so here here i mean , i found that it 's if i changed the noise estimate i could get an improvement . phd e: yeah . phd b: so that 's so it 's something which i can actually pursue , is the noise estimate . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: and professor g: yeah , i think what you do is in when when you have the the this multi - condition training mode , um then you have then you can train models for the speech , for the words , as well as for the pauses where you really have all information about the noise available . phd b: yeah . professor g: and it was surprising at the beginning it was not surprising to me that you get really the best results on doing it this way , i mean , in comparison to any type of training on clean data and any type of processing . but it was so , u u it it seems to be the best what wh wh what what we can do in this moment is multi - condition training . and every when we now start introducing some some noise reduction technique we we introduce also somehow artificial distortions . phd b: yeah . professor g: and these artificial distortions uh , i have the feeling that they are the reason why why we have the problems in this multi - condition training . that means the h m ms we trained , they are they are based on gaussians , phd b: yeah . professor g: and on modeling gaussians . and if you can i move a little bit with this ? yeah . and if we introduce now this this u spectral subtraction , or wiener filtering stuff so , usually what you have is maybe , um i 'm i 'm showing now an envelope um maybe you 'll f for this time . so usually you have maybe in clean condition you have something which looks like this . and if it is noisy it is somewhere here . and then you try to subtract it or wiener filter or whatever . and what you get is you have always these problems , that you have this these these these zeros in there . phd b: yeah . professor g: and you have to do something if you get these negative values . i mean , this is your noise estimate and you somehow subtract it or do whatever . uh , and then you have and then i think what you do is you introduce some some artificial distribution in this uh in in the models . i mean , i you you train it also this way but , i somehow there is u u there is no longer a a gaussian distribution . it is somehow a strange distribution which we introduce with these artificial distortions . and and i was thinking that that might be the reason why you get these problems in the especially in the multi - condition training mode . phd b: yeah , yeah . professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: th - that 's true . yeah the c the models are not complex enough to absorb that additional variability that you 're introducing . professor g: s phd f: thanks adam . professor g: yeah . yes . phd b: well , that 's yeah . so phd e: i also have the feeling that um , the reason ye why it does n't work is yeah , that the models are much are t um , not complex enough . because i actually i als always had a good experience with spectral subtraction , just a straight spectral subtraction algorithm when i was using neural networks , big neural networks , which maybe are more able to model strange distributions and professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: but yeah . then i tried the same exactly the same spectral subtraction algorithm on these aurora tasks and it simply does n't work . it 's even it , uh , hurts even . professor g: hmm . phd e: so . professor d: we probably should at some point here try the tandem the the the system - two kind of stuff with this , with the spectral subtraction for that reason . professor g: hmm . professor d: cuz again , it should do a transformation to a domain where it maybe looks more gaussian . professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: hmm . yeah , y i i was whe w w just yesterday when i was thinking about it um w what what we could try to do , or do about it i mean , if you if you get at this in this situation that you get this this negative values and you simply set it to zero or to a constant or whatever if we if we would use there a somehow , um a random generator which which has a certain distribution , u not a certain { comment } yeah , a special distribution we should see we we have to think about it . phd b: it 's professor g: and that we , so , introduce again some natural behavior in this trajectory . professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: mm - hmm . very different from speech . still , i mean , it should n't confuse the professor g: yeah , i mean , similar to what what you see really u in in the real um noisy situation . phd b: ok . mm - hmm . professor g: or i in the clean situation . but but somehow a a natural distribution . professor d: but is n't that s again sort of the idea of the additive thing , if it as as we had in the j stuff ? i mean , basically if if you have random data , um , in in the time domain , then when you look at the s spectrum it 's gon na be pretty flat . and and , professor g: mm - hmm . professor d: uh , so just add something everywhere rather than just in those places . it 's just a constant , right ? phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah . i think e yeah . it 's it 's just especially in these segments , i mean , you introduce , um , very artificial behavior . professor d: yeah . yeah . professor g: and professor d: well , see if you add something everywhere , it has almost no effect up up up on on top . and it and it and it has significant effect down there . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: that was , sort of the idea . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: hmm . yeah the that 's true . that those those regions are the cause for this @ @ those negative values or whatever you get . professor g: i mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . so . professor g: i mean , we we could trit uh , we we could think how w what what we could try . phd b: yeah . yeah , yeah . professor g: i mean , it it was just an idea . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: i mean , we professor d: i think when it 's noisy people should just speak up . professor g: to mmm . phd b: so phd e: if we look at the france telecom proposal , they use some kind of noise addition . they have a random number generator , right ? and they add noise on the trajectory of , uh , the log energy only , right ? professor d: oh , they do ! phd b: yep . professor d: oh . phd b: c - z c - zero and log energy also , yeah . phd e: yeah . um , but i do n't know how much effect it this have , but they do that . phd b: now ? phd e: yeah . phd b: oh . professor g: uh - huh . professor d: hmm . professor g: so it it it it it is l somehow similar to what phd e: i think because they have th log energy , yeah , and then just generate random number . they have some kind of mean and variance , and they add this number to to the log energy simply . um phd b: yeah the the log energy , the after the clean cleaning up . professor d: to the l phd b: so they add a random random noise to it . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: to the just the energy , or to the mel uh , to the mel filter ? phd b: no . on - only to the log energy . phd e: only yeah . professor d: oh . professor g: uh - huh . professor d: so it cuz i mean , i think this is most interesting for the mel filters . right ? professor g: uh - huh . professor d: or or f f one or the other . professor g: but but they do not apply filtering of the log energy or what phd b: like , uh i mean professor g: like like a spectral subtraction or phd b: no their filter is not m domain . s so they did filter their time signal professor g: yeah . i kn phd b: and then what @ @ u professor g: and then they calculate from this , the log energy phd b: yeah then after that it is s almost the same as the baseline prop system . professor g: or ? mm - hmm . phd b: and then the final log energy that they that they get , that to the to that they add some random noise . professor d: yeah , but again , that 's just log energy as opposed to filter bank energy . phd b: yeah . so it 's not the mel . professor g: mmm . phd b: you know , it 's not the mel filter bank output . professor d: yeah . phd b: these are log energy computed from the time s domain signal , professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: not from the mel filter banks . so did professor d: hmm . phd e: maybe it 's just a way to decrease the importance of this particular parameter in the in the world feature vector cu if you add noise to one of the parameters , you widen the distributions professor d: hmm . phd b: becomes flat . the variance , yeah , reduces , phd e: and phd b: so . hmm , yeah . phd e: eee - sss - uh . professor d: so it could reduce the dependence on the amplitude and so on . yeah . phd e: yeah . phd b: yeah . although professor d: maybe . phd e: mm - hmm . phd f: so is , uh is that about it ? phd b: uh , so the phd f: or ? phd b: ok . so the other thing is the i 'm just looking at a little bit on the delay issue where the delay of the system is like a hundred and eighty millisecond . so i just just tried another sk system i mean , another filter which i 've like shown at the end . which is very similar to the existing uh , filter . only uh , only thing is that the phase is is like a totally nonlinear phase because it 's a it 's not a symmetric filter anymore . phd f: this is for the lda ? phd b: yeah so so this this is like so this makes the delay like zero for lda because it 's completely causal . phd f: oh . phd b: so so i got actually just the results for the italian for that and that 's like so the fifty - one point o nine has become forty - eight point o six , which is like three percent relative degradation . so i have like the fifty - one point o nine phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: and so . i do n't know it f fares for the other conditions . so it 's just like it 's like a three percent relative degradation , with the professor g: but but is there is there a problem with the one hundred eighty milliseconds ? or ? phd b: u uh , may professor d: th - well , this is professor g: yeah , i mean , i talked to to uh , i ta uh , i talked , uh , about it with with hynek . i mean , there is professor d: this is so so , basically our our position is that , um , we should n't be unduly constraining the latency at this point because we 're all still experimenting with trying to make the performance better in the presence of noise . uh , there is a minority in that group who is a arguing who are arguing for um , uh , having a further constraining of the latency . so we 're s just continuing to keep aware of what the trade - offs are and , you know , what what do we gain from having longer or shorter latencies ? professor g: mmm . professor d: but since we always seem to at least get something out of longer latencies not being so constrained , we 're tending to go with that if we 're not told we ca n't do it . phd f: what where was the , um the smallest latency of all the systems last time ? professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: the french telecom . professor d: well , france telecom was was was very short latency professor g: it 's professor d: and they had a very good result . phd f: what what was it ? professor d: it was thirty - five . professor g: it was in the order of thirty milliseconds professor d: yeah . professor g: or phd f: thirteen ? professor d: th th professor g: thirty . phd f: thirty . phd b: thirty - four . professor d: yeah . professor g: yeah . professor d: yeah , so it 's possible to get very short latency . professor g: professor d: but , again , we 're the the approaches that we 're using are ones that take advantage of phd f: yeah . i was just curious about where we are compared to , you know , the shortest that people have done . professor g: but but i think this thirty milliseconds they they did it did not include the the delta calculation . phd b: yeah . yeah . yeah . professor g: and this is included now , phd b: yeah . yeah . professor g: you know ? phd b: so if they include the delta , it will be an additional forty millisecond . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: yeah . professor g: yeah . i i do n't remember the i th they were not using the htk delta ? phd b: no , they 're using a nine - point window , which is like a four on either side , professor g: nine - point . phd b: which is like professor g: ok . phd b: f so professor g: mmm . phd b: they did n't include that . professor d: yeah . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: so phd e: where does the comprish compression in decoding delay comes from ? phd f: ok . phd e: phd b: that 's the way the the the frames are packed , like you have to wait for one more frame to pack . because it 's the crc is computed for two frames always . professor d: well , that the they would need that forty milliseconds also . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: no . they actually changed the compression scheme altogether . professor d: right ? phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: so they have their own compression and decoding scheme and they i do n't know what they have . professor d: oh . phd b: but they have coded zero delay for that . because they ch i know they changed it , their compression . they have their own crc , their their own error correction mechanism . professor d: oh . phd b: so they do n't have to wait more than one more frame to know whether the current frame is in error . professor d: oh , ok . phd b: so they changed the whole thing so that there 's no delay for that compression and part also . professor d: hmm . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: even you have reported actually zero delay for the compression . i thought maybe you also have some different professor g: mmm . mmm . no , i think i i used this scheme as it was before . phd b: ok . ah . mm - hmm . phd f: ok , we 've got twenty minutes so we should probably try to move along . uh , did you wan na go next , stephane ? phd e: i can go next . yeah . mmm . professor d: oh . wait a minute . it 's phd e: it 's yeah , we have to take professor d: wait a minute . i think i 'm confused . phd e: well ok . professor d: alright . phd e: so you have w w one sheet ? this one is you do n't need it , alright . professor d: uh phd e: so you have to take the whole the five . there should be five sheets . professor d: ok , phd e: professor d: i have four now because i left one with dave because i thought i was dropping one off and passing the others on . so , no , we 're not . ok . phd b: thanks . phd h: please give me one . professor d: ah , we need one more over here . phd e: ok , maybe there 's not enough for everybody . phd f: i can share with barry . grad a: yeah . professor d: oh , ok . phd e: but can we look at this ? professor g: ok . grad c: yeah . phd e: so , yeah , there are two figures showing actually the , mmm , um , performance of the current vad . so it 's a n neural network based on plp parameters , uh , which estimate silence probabilities , and then i just put a median filtering on this to smooth the probabilities , right ? um i did n't use the the scheme that 's currently in the proposal because i do n't want to in the proposal well , in in the system we want to add like speech frame before every word and a little bit of of , uh , s a couple of frames after also . uh , but to estimate the performance of the vad , we do n't want to do that , because it would artificially increase the um the false alarm rate of speech detection . right ? um , so , there is u normally a figure for the finnish and one for italian . and maybe someone has two for the italian because i 'm missing one figure here . phd b: no . phd e: well well , whatever . uh yeah , so one surprising thing that we can notice first is that apparently the speech miss rate is uh , higher than the false alarm rate . so . it means professor g: so so what is the lower curve and the upper curve ? phd e: mm - hmm . yeah , there are two curves . one curve 's for the close - talking microphone , which is the lower curve . professor g: yeah . phd e: and the other one is for the distant microphone professor g: ah , ok . phd e: which has more noise so , it 's logical that it performs worse . so as i was saying , the miss rate is quite important uh , which means that we tend to label speech as as a silence . and , uh , i did n't analyze further yet , but i think it 's it may be due to the fricative sounds which may be in noisy condition maybe label labelled as silence . and it may also be due to the alignment because well , the reference alignment . because right now i just use an alignment obtained from from a system trained on channel zero . and i checked it a little bit but there might be alignment errors . um , yeah , e like the fact that the the models tend to align their first state on silence and their last state o on silence also . so the reference reference alignment would label as speech some silence frame before speech and after speech . this is something that we already noticed before when mmm , so this cus this could also explain , uh , the high miss rate maybe . uh professor g: and and this this curves are the average over the whole database , so . phd e: yeah . right . professor g: mmm . phd e: um yeah , and the different points of the curves are for five uh , thresholds on the probability { comment } uh from point three to point seven . phd b: so that threshold phd e: mm - hmm . yeah . phd b: ok . s ok so d the detection threshold is very phd e: so the v phd b: yeah , yeah . phd e: the vad ? yeah . there first , a threshold on the probability { comment } @ @ { comment } that puts all the values to zero or one . phd b: mmm . phd e: and then the median filtering . phd b: yeah , so the median filtering is fixed . you just change the threshold ? phd e: yeah . it 's fixed , phd b: yeah . phd e: yeah . mm - hmm . so , going from channel zero to channel one , uh , almost double the error rate . um , yeah . well , so it 's a reference performance that we can you know , if we want to to work on the vad , { comment } we can work on this basis phd h: phd b: mm - hmm . phd e: and phd b: ok . grad a: is this is this vad a mlp ? phd e: yeah . grad a: ok . how how big is it ? phd e: it 's a very big one . i do n't remember . phd b: so three three hundred and fifty inputs , phd e: m phd b: uh , six thousand hidden nodes and two outputs . t t grad a: ok . phd b: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: middle - sized one . phd b: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: phd e: yeah . uh , ppp . i do n't know , you have questions about that , or suggestions ? phd b: mmm . s so phd e: it seems the performance seems worse in finnish , which phd b: well , it 's not trained on finnish . phd e: uh phd h: it 's worse . phd e: it 's not trained on finnish , yeah . professor d: what 's it trained on ? phd b: i mean , the mlp 's not trained on finnish . professor d: right , what 's it trained on ? phd b: oh oh . sorry . uh , it 's italian ti - digits . professor d: yeah . oh , it 's trained on italian ? phd b: yeah . professor d: yeah , ok . phd e: mm - hmm . and phd b: that 's right . professor d: ok . phd e: and also there are like funny noises on finnish more than on italian . i mean , like music professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . yeah , the yeah , it 's true . phd e: and um so , yeah , we were looking at this . but for most of the noises , noises are um , i do n't know if we want to talk about that . but , well , the the `` car `` noises are below like five hundred hertz . and we were looking at the `` music `` utterances and in this case the noise is more about two thousand hertz . phd b: yeah . phd e: well , the music energy 's very low apparently . uh , uh , from zero to two two thousand hertz . so maybe just looking at this frequency range for from five hundred to two thousand would improve somewhat the vad phd b: mmm . phd e: and phd b: yeah . phd e: mmm phd b: so there are like some some s some parameters you wanted to use or something ? phd e: yeah , but yes . phd b: or yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . uh , the next , um oh , it 's there . professor g: so is the is the is the training is the training based on these labels files which you take as reference here ? phd e: yeah . professor g: wh - when you train the neural net y y you phd e: no . it 's not . it 's it was trained on some alignment obtained um , uh for the italian data , i think we trained the neural network on with embedded training . so re - estimation of the alignment using the neural network , i guess . that 's right ? phd b: yeah . we actually trained , uh , the on the italian training part . phd e: yeah . phd b: we we had another system with u phd e: so it was a f f a phonetic classification system for the italian aurora data . phd b: yeah . it must be somewhere . yeah . phd e: for the aurora data that it was trained on , it was different . like , for ti - digits you used a a previous system that you had , i guess . phd b: what no it yeah , yeah . that 's true . phd e: so the alignments from the different database that are used for training came from different system . phd b: syste yeah . phd e: then we put them tog together . well , you put them together and trained the vad on them . phd b: yeah . phd e: mmm . phd b: yeah . professor g: hmm . phd e: uh , but did you use channel did you align channel one also ? or phd b: i just took their entire italian training part . phd e: yeah . phd b: so it was both channel zero plus channel one . phd e: so di yeah . so the alignments might be wrong then on channel one , right ? phd b: on one . possible . phd e: so we might , phd b: we can do a realignment . phd e: yeah , phd b: that 's true . phd e: at least want to retrain on these alignments , which should be better because they come from close - talking microphone . professor g: yeah , the that was my idea . i mean , if if it ha if it is not the same labeling which is taking the spaces . phd b: yeah . phd e: ok . phd b: yeah , possible . phd e: yeah . professor g: mmm . phd b: i mean , it so the system phd e: yeah . phd b: so the vad was trained on maybe different set of labels for channel zero and channel one phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: and professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: was the alignments were w were different for s certainly different because they were independently trained . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: we did n't copy the channel zero alignments to channel one . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . phd e: yeah . phd b: but for the new alignments what you generated , you just copied the channel zero to channel one , right ? yeah . phd e: right . yeah . um . and eh , hhh actually when we look at at the vad , for some utterances it 's almost perfect , i mean , it just dropped one frame , the first frame of speech or so there are some utterances where it 's almost one hundred percent vad performance . professor g: hmm . phd e: uh , but yeah . mmm yep . so the next thing is um , i have the spreadsheet for three different system . but for this you only have to look right now on the speechdat - car performance uh , because i did n't test so i did n't test the spectral subtraction on ti - digits yet . uh , so you have three she sheets . one is the um proposal - one system . actually , it 's not exe exactly proposal - one . it 's the system that sunil just described . um , but with uh , wiener filtering from um , france telecom included . um , so this gives like fifty - seven point seven percent , uh , s uh , error rate reduction on the speechdat - car data . mmm , and then i have two sheets where it 's for a system where uh , so it 's again the same system . but in this case we have spectral subtraction with a maximum overestimation factor of two point five . uh , there is smoothing of the gain trajectory with some kind of uh , low - pass filter , which has forty milliseconds latency . and then , after subtraction um , i add a constant to the energies and i have two cases d where the first case is where the constant is twenty - five db below the mean speech energy and the other is thirty db below . um , and for these s two system we have like fifty - five point , uh , five - percent improvement , and fifty - eight point one . so again , it 's around fifty - six , fifty - seven . uh professor d: cuz i notice the ti - digits number is exactly the same for these last two ? phd e: yeah , because i did n't for the france telecom uh , spectral subtraction included in the our system , the ti - digits number are the right one , but not for the other system because i did n't test it yet this system , including with spectral subtraction on the ti - digits data . i just tested it on speechdat - car . professor d: ah ! so so that means the only thing professor g: mm - hmm . so so so these numbers are simply phd e: this , we have to yeah . phd b: but this number . professor d: yeah . professor g: yeah . professor d: so you so you just should look at that fifty - eight perc point o nine percent and so on . phd e: yes . professor g: ok . phd e: right . right . professor d: ok . good . phd e: mm - hmm . um , yeah . phd b: so this so by uh , by by reducing the noise a a decent threshold like minus thirty db , it 's like uh , you are like r r reducing the floor of the noisy regions , right ? professor g: s phd e: yeah . yeah . the floor is lower . um , phd b: uh - huh . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: i 'm sorry . so when you say minus twenty - five or minus thirty db , with respect to what ? phd e: to the average um , speech energy which is estimated on the world database . professor d: ok , so basically you 're creating a signal - to - noise ratio of twenty - five or thirty db ? phd e: yeah . professor d: uh r phd e: but it 's not professor g: i i i think what you do is this . phd e: it it 's professor g: i when when you have this , after you subtracted it , i mean , then you get something w w with this , uh , where you set the values to zero and then you simply add an additive constant again . phd e: yeah . professor g: so you shift it somehow . this this whole curve is shifted again . professor d: but did you do that before the thresholding to zero , phd e: right . it 's professor d: or ? phd e: but , it 's after the thresholding . professor g: professor d: oh , phd e: so , professor d: so you 'd really want to do it before , phd e: maybe professor d: right ? phd e: maybe we might do it before , professor d: yeah , because then the then you would have less of that phenomenon . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor d: i think . phd e: uh professor g: e hhh . phd e: yeah . professor d: c phd e: but still , when you do this and you take the log after that , it it reduce the the variance . professor d: yeah , it it right . phd e: but mmm , professor d: yeah , that will reduce the variance . that 'll help . but maybe if you does do it before you get less of these funny - looking things he 's drawing . professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: um , phd b: so before it 's like adding this , col to the to the o exi original professor g: but but phd e: we would professor d: right at the point where you 've done the subtraction . phd b: ok . professor d: um , essentially you 're adding a constant into everything . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: but the way stephane did it , it is exactly the way i have implemented in the phone , so . professor d: oh , yeah , better do it different , then . yeah . phd e: um . professor d: just you you just ta you just set it for a particular signal - to - noise ratio that you want ? phd e: yeah . professor g: yeah i i made s similar investigations like stephane did here , just uh , adding this constant and and looking how dependent is it on the value of the constant professor d: yeah . yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: and then , must choose them somehow to give on average the best results for a certain range of the signal - to - noise ratios . professor d: uh - huh . phd e: yeah . mm - hmm . professor g: so phd e: oh , it 's clear . i should have gi given other results . also it 's clear when you do n't add noise , it 's much worse . like , around five percent worse i guess . professor d: uh - huh . phd e: and if you add too much noise it get worse also . and it seems that right now this this is c a constant that does not depend on { comment } on anything that you can learn from the utterance . it 's just a constant noise addition . um . and i i think w w professor d: i i 'm sorry . then then i 'm confused . phd e: i think professor d: i thought you 're saying it does n't depend on the utterance but i thought you were adding an amount that was twenty - five db down from the signal energy . phd e: yeah , so the way i did that , { comment } i i just measured the average speech energy of the all the italian data . professor d: oh ! phd e: and then i i have i used this as mean speech energy . mm - hmm . professor d: oh , it 's just a constant amount over all . phd e: yeah . and phd b: ok . phd e: wha what i observed is that for italian and spanish , { comment } when you go to thirty and twenty - five db , { comment } uh it it 's good . phd b: oh . phd e: it stays in this range , it 's , uh , the p u well , the performance of the this algorithm is quite good . but for finnish , you have a degradation already when you go from thirty - five to thirty and then from thirty to twenty - five . and i have the feeling that maybe it 's because just finnish has a mean energy that 's lower than than the other databases . and due to this the thresholds should be professor d: yeah . phd e: the the a the noise addition should be lower professor d: but in i mean , in the real thing you 're not gon na be able to measure what people are doing over half an hour or an hour , or anything , right ? phd e: and professor d: so you have to come up with this number from something else . phd e: yeah . so professor g: uh , but you are not doing it now language dependent ? or ? phd e: it 's not . it 's just something that 's fixed . professor g: no . it 's overall . phd e: yeah . professor g: ok . phd e: mm - hmm . um professor d: but what he is doing language dependent is measuring what that number i reference is that he comes down twenty - five down from . phd e: yeah , so i g no . it no . professor d: no ? phd e: because i did it i started working on italian . i obtained this average energy professor d: yeah . phd e: and then i used this one . phd b: for all the languages . ok . phd e: yeah . professor d: so it 's sort of arbitrary . phd b: yeah . professor d: i mean , so if y if yeah . phd e: yep . professor d: yeah . phd e: um , yeah , so the next thing is to use this as as maybe initialization professor d: uh - huh . phd e: and then use something on - line . professor d: something more adaptive , phd e: but and i expect improvement at least in finnish because eh the way professor d: yeah . ok . phd e: well , um , for italian and spanish it 's th this value works good but not necessarily for finnish . mmm . but unfortunately there is , like , this forty millisecond latency and , um yeah , so i would try to somewhat reduce this @ @ . i already know that if i completely remove this latency , so . um , { comment } it um there is a three percent hit on italian . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: d does latency professor g: i phd b: sorry . go ahead . professor g: yeah . your your smoothing was @ @ { comment } uh , over this s so to say , the the factor of the wiener . and then it 's , uh what was it ? this phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: this smoothing , it was over the subtraction factor , so to say . phd e: it 's a smoothing over the the gain of the subtraction algorithm . professor g: was this done mm - hmm . and and you are looking into the future , into the past . phd e: right . professor g: and smoothing . phd e: so , to smooth this thing . professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: yeah . um professor g: and did did you try simply to smooth um to smooth the the t to to smooth stronger the the envelope ? phd e: um , no , i did not . professor g: mmm . phd e: mmm . professor g: because i mean , it should have a similar effect if you phd e: yeah . professor g: i mean , you you have now several stages of smoothing , so to say . you start up . as far as i remember you you smooth somehow the envelope , you smooth somehow the noise estimate , phd e: mm - hmm . mmm professor g: and and later on you smooth also this subtraction factor . phd e: uh , no , it 's it 's just the gain that 's smoothed actually phd b: uh , actually i d i do all the smoothing . phd e: but it 's smoothed professor g: ah . oh , it w it was you . phd b: yeah , yeah . phd e: uh yeah . professor g: yeah . phd e: yeah . no , in this case it 's just the gain . professor g: yeah . phd e: and professor g: uh - huh . phd e: but the way it 's done is that um , for low gain , there is this non nonlinear smoothing actually . for low gains um , i use the smoothed sm uh , smoothed version but for high gain @ @ { comment } it 's i do n't smooth . professor g: uh . mm - hmm . i just , uh it experience shows you , if if you do the the best is to do the smoo smoothing as early as possible . phd e: uh - huh . professor g: so w when you start up . i mean , you start up with the with the somehow with the noisy envelope . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: and , best is to smooth this somehow . phd e: mm - hmm . uh , yeah , i could try this . um . professor g: and phd b: so , before estimating the snr , @ @ smooth the envelope . professor g: yeah . yeah . uh - huh . phd e: mm - hmm . but yeah . then i i would need to find a way to like smooth less also when there is high energy . cuz i noticed that it it helps a little bit to s like smooth more during low energy portions and less during speech , professor g: yes , y phd e: because if you smooth then y you kind of distort the speech . professor g: yeah . yeah . phd e: um . professor g: right . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah , i think when w you you could do it in this way that you say , if you if i 'm you have somehow a noise estimate , phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: and , if you say i 'm i 'm with my envelope i 'm close to this noise estimate , phd e: yeah . professor g: then you have a bad signal - to - noise ratio and then you you would like to have a stronger smoothing . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: so you could you could base it on your estimation of the signal - to - noise ratio on your actual phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mmm . phd b: yeah , or some silence probability from the vad if you have phd e: um , yeah , but i do n't trust the current vad . so . phd b: yeah , uh , so not not right now maybe . phd e: well , maybe . professor d: the vad later will be much better . phd e: maybe . professor d: yeah . so . i see . phd f: so is that it ? phd e: uh , fff { comment } i think that 's it . yeah . uh . professor g: s so to summarize the performance of these , speechdat - car results is similar than than yours so to say . phd b: yeah , so the fifty - eight is like the be some fifty - six point phd e: yeah . professor g: y you have you have fifty - six point four phd b: yeah , that 's true . professor g: and and and dependent on this additive constant , it is s better or or worse . phd e: yeah . phd b: slightly better . phd e: mm - hmm . phd h: phd b: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah . phd e: and , yeah , i i i the condition where it 's better than your approach , it 's it just because maybe it 's better on well matched and that the weight on well matched is is bigger , phd b: yeah . yeah , you you caught up . phd e: because phd b: yep , that 's true . phd e: if you do n't weigh differently the different condition , you can see that your well , the win the two - stage wiener filtering is maybe better or phd b: yeah . phd e: it 's better for high mismatch , right ? phd b: yeah , it 's better for high mismatch . phd e: mm - hmm . but a little bit worse for well matched . phd b: so over all it gets , yeah , worse for the well matched condition , so y phd e: uh - huh . phd f: so we need to combine these two . phd b: uh , that 's that 's the best thing , is like the french telecom system is optimized for the well matched condition . they c phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . so they know that the weighting is good for the well matched , and so there 's everywhere the well matched 's s s performance is very good for the french telecom . phd e: yeah . professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: t we are we may also have to do something similar @ @ . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: well , our tradition here has always been to focus on the mismatched . phd b: um the professor d: cuz it 's more interesting . professor g: mu - my mine was it too , i mean . professor d: yeah . professor g: before i started working on this aurora . professor d: yeah . professor g: so . professor d: yeah . yeah . ok . phd f: carmen ? do you , uh phd h: well , i only say that the this is , a summary of the of all the vts experiments and say that the result in the last { comment } um , for italian the last experiment for italian , are bad . i make a mistake when i write . up at d i copy one of the bad result . phd b: so you phd h: and there . you know , this . um , well . if we put everything , we improve a lot u the spectral use of the vts but the final result are not still mmm , good like the wiener filter for example . i do n't know . maybe it 's @ @ { comment } it 's possible to to have the same result . phd b: that 's somewhere phd h: i do n't know exactly . mmm . because i have , mmm , { comment } worse result in medium mismatch and high mismatch . phd b: you s you have a better r yeah . you have some results that are good for the high mismatch . phd h: and yeah . i someti are more or less similar but but are worse . and still i do n't have the result for ti - digits . the program is training . maybe for this weekend i will have result ti - digits and i can complete that s like this . well . professor d: uh . right . phd h: one thing that i { comment } note are not here in this result but are speak are spoken before with sunil i i improve my result using clean lda filter . phd b: mm - hmm . professor d: mm - hmm . phd h: if i use , eh , the lda filter that are training with the noisy speech , that hurts the res my results . professor d: so what are these numbers here ? are these with the clean or with the noisy ? phd h: this is with the clean . professor d: ok . phd h: with the noise i have worse result , that if i does n't use it . professor d: uh - huh . phd h: but m that may be because with this technique we are using really really clean speech . the speech the { comment } representation that go to the htk is really clean speech because it 's from the dictionary , the code book and maybe from that . i do n't know . phd e: mm - hmm . phd h: because i think that you did some experiments using the two the two lda filter , clean and noi and noise , phd e: it 's phd h: and it does n't matter too much . phd e: um , yeah , i did that but it does n't matter on speechdat - car , but , it matters , uh , a lot on ti - digits . phd b: using the clean filter . phd h: it 's better to use clean . phd e: yeah , d uh , it 's much better when you we used the clean derived lda filter . phd h: mm - hmm . maybe you can do d also this . phd b: yeah . phd h: to use clean speech . phd b: yeah , i 'll try . phd e: uh , but , yeah , sunil in in your result it 's phd b: i i 'll try the cle no , i i my result is with the noisy noisy lda . phd e: it 's with the noisy one . yeah . phd b: yeah . professor d: oh ! phd b: it 's with the noisy . yeah . it 's it 's not the clean lda . phd e: so professor d: um phd b: it 's in in the front sheet , i have like like the summary . yeah . professor d: and and your result { comment } is with the phd e: it 's with the clean lda . phd b: oh . this is your results are all with the clean lda result ? phd h: yeah , with the clean lda . phd b: ok . @ @ . phd e: yeah . phd b: phd e: and in your case it 's all all noisy , phd h: is that the reason ? phd b: all noisy , yeah . phd e: yeah . but phd h: and phd b: uh phd e: yeah . phd b: uh phd e: but i observe my case it 's in , uh , uh , at least on speechdat - car it does n't matter but ti - digits it 's like two or three percent absolute , uh , { comment } better . phd b: on ti - digits this matters . absolute . uh professor d: so you really might wan na try the clean i think . phd e: so if phd b: yeah , i i i will have to look at it . yeah , that 's true . professor d: yeah . yeah , that could be sizeable right there . phd h: and this is everything . professor g: yeah . professor d: ok . professor g: maybe you you are leaving in in about two weeks carmen . no ? phd h: yeah . professor g: yeah . so i mean , if if if i would put it put on the head of a project mana manager i i i i would say , uh , um i mean there is not so much time left now . professor d: be my guest . professor g: i mean , if um , what what i would do is i i i would pick @ @ { comment } the best consolation , which you think , and c create create all the results for the whole database that you get to the final number as as sunil did it phd h: and prepare at the s professor g: and um and maybe also to to write somehow a document where you describe your approach , and what you have done . phd h: yeah , i was thinking to do that next week . professor d: yeah . professor g: yeah . professor d: yeah , i 'll i 'll borrow the head back and and agree . yeah , phd h: yeah , i wi i i will do that next week . professor d: that 's that 's right . in fact , actually i g i guess the , uh the spanish government , uh , requires that anyway . they want some kind of report from everybody who 's in the program . phd h: mm - hmm . professor d: so . and of course i 'd we 'd we 'd like to see it too . so , phd h: ok . professor d: yeah . phd f: so , um , what 's do you think we , uh , should do the digits or skip it ? or what are what do you think ? professor d: uh , we have them now ? phd f: yeah , got them . professor d: uh , why don why do n't we do it ? phd f: ok . professor d: just { comment } just take a minute . phd h: i can send yet . phd f: would you pass those down ? professor d: oh ! sorry . phd f: ok , um , so i guess i 'll go ahead . um , professor d: seat ? phd e: dave ? is it the channel , or the mike ? i do n't remember . it 's the mike ? professor d: mike ? phd e: it 's not four . phd h: this is date and time . no . on the channel , channel . professor g: what is this ? phd b: t phd f: ok , if you could just leave , um , your mike on top of your , uh , digit form i can fill in any information that 's missing . professor g: ok . phd f: that 's uh i did n't get a chance to fill them out ahead of time . yeah , we 're gon na have to fix that . uh , let 's see , it starts with one here , and then goes around and ends with nine here . grad a: seven . so i i 'm eight , phd f: so he 's eight , grad a: you 're seven . phd f: you 're seven , grad a: yeah .

the model that phd b was working on performed better on high mismatch than on the well matched case . the professor thought that this reflected the team 's priority , which had always focused more so on the high mismatched case . phd h was concerned that their model did worse on medium and high mismatch . adding noise hurt their model .

what did professor g say about smoothing ? </s> phd f: and we 're on . professor d: ok . might wan na close the door so that uh , stephane will phd f: i 'll get it . professor d: yeah phd f: hey dave ? could you go ahead and turn on , uh , stephane 's grad c: mm - hmm . professor d: so that 's the virtual stephane over there . phd f: ok . professor g: do you use a pc for recording ? or phd f: uh , yeah , a linux box . yeah . it 's got , uh , like sixteen channels going into it . professor g: uh - huh . uh - huh . the quality is quite good ? or ? phd f: mm - hmm . yeah , so far , it 's been pretty good . professor g: mm - hmm . professor d: yeah . so , uh , yeah the suggestion was to have these guys start to phd f: ok . why do n't you go ahead , dave ? grad c: ok . um , so , yeah , the this past week i 've been main mainly occupied with , um , getting some results , u from the sri system trained on this short hub - five training set for the mean subtraction method . and , um , i ran some tests last night . but , um , c the results are suspicious . um , it 's , um , cuz they 're the baseline results are worse than , um , andreas than results andreas got previously . and it could have something to do with , um phd f: that 's on digits ? grad c: that 's on digits . it c it it could h it could have something to do with , um , downsampling . phd f: hmm . grad c: that 's that 's worth looking into . um , d and , um , ap ap apart from that , i guess the the main thing i have t ta i have to talk is , um , where i 'm planning to go over the next week . um . so i 've been working on integrating this mean subtraction approach into the smartkom system . and there 's this question of , well , so , um , in my tests before with htk i found it worked it worked the best with about twelve seconds of data used to estimate the mean , but , we 'll often have less { comment } in the smartkom system . um . so i think we 'll use as much data as we have at a particular time , and we 'll we 'll concatenate utterances together , um , to get as much data as we possibly can from the user . but , um , there 's a question of how to set up the models . so um , we could train the models . if we think twelve seconds is ideal we could train the models using twelve seconds to calculate the mean , to mean subtract the training data . or we could , um , use some other amount . so like i did an experiment where i , um , was using six seconds in test , um , but , for i tried twelve seconds in train . and i tried , um , um , the same in train i 'm a i tried six seconds in train . and six seconds in train was about point three percent better . um , and um , it 's not clear to me yet whether that 's something significant . so i wan na do some tests and , um , actually make some plots of , um for a particular amount of data and test what happens if you vary the amount of data in train . phd f: mm - hmm . professor d: uh , guenter , i do n't know if you t followed this stuff but this is , uh , a uh , uh , long - term long - term window f f yeah . yeah , he you talked about it . professor g: yeah , we we spoke about it already , professor d: oh , ok . so you know what he 's doing . professor g: yeah . professor d: alright . grad c: y s so i was i actually ran the experiments mostly and i i was i was hoping to have the plots with me today . i just did n't get to it . but , um yeah , i wou i would be curious about people 's feedback on this cuz i 'm @ @ { comment } i p i think there are some i think it 's it 's kind of like a a bit of a tricky engineering problem . i 'm trying to figure out what 's the optimal way to set this up . so , um , i 'll try to make the plots and then put some postscript up on my on my web page . and i 'll mention it in my status report if people wan na take a look . professor d: you could clarify something for me . you 're saying point three percent , you take a point three percent hit , when the training and testing links are do n't match or something ? phd e: hello . professor d: is that what it is ? grad c: w well , it c professor d: or ? grad c: i i do n't think it it 's just for any mismatch you take a hit . professor d: yeah . grad c: i in some cases it might be u better to have a mismatch . like i think i saw something like like if you only have two seconds in test , or , um , maybe it was something like four seconds , you actually do a little better if you , um , train on six seconds than if you train on four seconds . professor d: yeah . right . grad c: um , but the case , uh with the point three percent hit was using six seconds in test , um , comparing train on twelve seconds { comment } versus train on six seconds . professor d: and which was worse ? grad c: the train on twelve seconds . professor d: ok . but point three percent , uh , w from what to what ? that 's point three percent grad c: on the the the accuracies w went from it was something vaguely like ninety - five point six accuracy , um , improved to ninety - five point nine wh when i professor d: so four point four to four point one . grad c: ok . professor d: so yeah . so about a about an eight percent , uh , seven or eight percent relative ? grad c: ok . professor d: uh , yeah . well , i think in a p you know , if if you were going for an evaluation system you 'd care . but if you were doing a live system that people were actually using nobody would notice . it 's uh , i think the thing is to get something that 's practical , that that you could really use . grad c: huh . that 's that 's interesting . alright , the e uh , i see your point . i guess i was thinking of it as , um , an interesting research problem . the how to g i was thinking that for the asru paper we could have a section saying , `` for smartkom , we we d in we tried this approach in , uh , interactive system `` , which i do n't think has been done before . professor d: yeah . mm - hmm . grad c: and and then there was two research questions from that . professor d: mm - hmm . grad c: and one is the k does it still work if you just use the past history ? professor d: mm - hmm . grad c: alright , and the other was this question of , um what i was just talking about now . so i guess that 's why i thought it was interesting . professor d: i mean , a short - time fft short - time cepstrum calculation , uh , mean u mean calculation work that people have in commercial systems , they do this all the time . they the they calculate it from previous utterances and then use it , you know . grad c: yeah , um . professor d: but but , uh , as you say , there has n't been that much with this long long - time , uh , spectra work . grad c: oh , o oh , ok . professor d: uh , grad c: so that 's that 's that 's standard . um professor d: yeah . pretty common . grad c: ok . professor d: yeah . um , but , u uh , yes . no , it is interesting . and the other thing is , i mean , there 's two sides to these really small , uh , gradations in performance . um , i mean , on the one hand in a practical system if something is , uh , four point four percent error , four point one percent error , people wo n't really tell be able to tell the difference . on the other hand , when you 're doing , uh , research , you may , eh you might find that the way that you build up a change from a ninety - five percent accurate system to a ninety - eight percent accurate system is through ten or twelve little things that you do that each are point three percent . so so the they they it 's i do n't mean to say that they 're they 're irrelevant . uh , they are relevant . but , um , i for a demo , you wo n't see it . grad c: mm - hmm . right . ok . professor d: yeah . grad c: and , um , let 's l let 's see . um , ok . and then there 's um , another thing i wan na start looking at , um , wi is , um , the choice of the analysis window length . so i 've just been using two seconds just because that 's what carlos did before . uh , i wrote to him asking about he chose the two seconds . and it seemed like he chose it a bit informally . so , um , with the with the htk set - up i should be able to do some experiments , on just varying that length , say between one and three seconds , in a few different reverberation conditions , um , say this room and also a few of the artificial impulse responses we have for reverberation , just , um , making some plots and seeing how they look . and , um , so , with the the sampling rate i was using , one second or two seconds or four seconds is at a power of two um , number of samples and , um , i 'll i 'll jus f for the ones in between i guess i 'll just zero - pad . professor d: mm - hmm . i guess one thing that might also be an issue , uh , cuz part of what you 're doing is you 're getting a a spectrum over a bunch of different kinds of speech sounds . um , and so it might matter how fast someone was talking for instance . grad c: oh . professor d: you know , if you if if if there 's a lot of phones in one second maybe you 'll get a a really good sampling of all these different things , and and , uh , on the other hand if someone 's talking slowly maybe you 'd need more . so grad c: huh . professor d: i do n't know if you have some samples of faster or slower speech but it might make a difference . i do n't know . grad c: uh , yeah , i do n't i do n't think the ti - digits data that i have , um , i is would be appropriate for that . professor d: yeah , probably not . yeah . grad c: but what do you what about if i w i fed it through some kind of , um , speech processing algorithm that changed the speech rate ? professor d: yeah , but then you 'll have the degradation of of , uh , whatever you do uh , added onto that . but maybe . yeah , maybe if you get something that sounds that that 's does a pretty job at that . grad c: yeah . well , uh , just if you think it 's worth looking into . professor d: you could imagine that . grad c: i mean , it it is getting a little away from reverberation . professor d: um , yeah . it 's just that you 're making a choice uh , i was thinking more from the system aspect , if you 're making a choice for smartkom , that that that it might be that it 's it c the optimal number could be different , depending on grad c: yeah . right . professor d: could be . i do n't know . grad c: and and th the third thing , um , uh , is , um , barry explained lda filtering to me yesterday . and so , um , mike shire in his thesis um , did a a series of experiments , um , training lda filters in d on different conditions . and you were interested in having me repeat this for for this mean subtraction approach ? is is that right ? or for these long analysis windows , i guess , is the right way to put it . professor d: i guess , the the the issue i was the general issue i was bringing up was that if you 're have a moving moving window , uh , a wa a a set of weights times things that , uh , move along , shift along in time , that you have in fact a linear time invariant filter . and you just happened to have picked a particular one by setting all the weights to be equal . and so the issue is what are some other filters that you could use , uh , in that sense of `` filter `` ? grad c: mm - hmm . professor d: and , um , as i was saying , i think the simplest thing to do is not to train anything , but just to do some sort of , uh , uh , hamming or hanning , uh , kind of window , kind of thing , grad c: right . mm - hmm . professor d: just sort of to de - emphasize the jarring . so i think that would sort of be the first thing to do . but then , yeah , the lda i uh , is interesting because it would sort of say well , suppose you actually trained this up to do the best you could by some criterion , what would the filter look like then ? grad c: uh - huh . professor d: uh , and , um , that 's sort of what we 're doing in this aur - aurora stuff . and , uh , it 's still not clear to me in the long run whether the best thing to do would be to do that or to have some stylized version of the filter that looks like these things you 've trained up , because you always have the problem that it 's trained up for one condition and it is n't quite right for another . so . uh that 's that 's why that 's why rasta filter has actually ended up lasting a long time , people still using it quite a bit , because y you do n't change it . so does n't get any worse . uh , grad c: huh . professor d: anyway . grad c: o ok . so , um , a actually i was just thinking about what i was asking about earlier , wi which is about having less than say twelve seconds in the smartkom system to do the mean subtraction . you said in systems where you use cepstral mean subtraction , they concatenate utterances and , do you know how they address this issue of , um , testing versus training ? can professor d: go ahead . professor g: i think what they do is they do it always on - line , i mean , that you just take what you have from the past , that you calculate the mean of this and subtract the mean . grad c: ok . um professor g: and then you can yeah , you you can increase your window whi while you get while you are getting more samples . grad c: ok , um , and , um , so so in tha in that case , wh what do they do when they 're t um , performing the cepstral mean subtraction on the training data ? so because you 'd have hours and hours of training data . so do they cut it off and start over ? at intervals ? or ? professor g: so do you have uh , you you mean you have files which are hours of hours long ? or ? grad c: oh , well , no . i guess not . but professor g: yeah . i mean , usually you have in the training set you have similar conditions , i mean , file lengths are , i guess the same order or in the same size as for test data , or are n't they ? grad c: ok . but it 's ok . so if someone 's interacting with the system , though , uh , morgan uh , morgan said that you would tend to , um , chain utterances together um , r professor d: well , i think what i was s i thought what i was saying was that , um , at any given point you are gon na start off with what you had from before . grad c: oh . professor d: from and so if you 're splitting things up into utterances so , for instance , in a dialogue system , { comment } where you 're gon na be asking , uh , you know , th for some information , there 's some initial th something . and , you know , the first time out you you might have some general average . but you you d you do n't have very much information yet . but at after they 've given one utterance you 've got something . you can compute your mean cepstra from that , grad c: mm - hmm . professor d: and then can use it for the next thing that they say , uh , so that , you know , the performance should be better that second time . um , and i think the heuristics of exactly how people handle that and how they handle their training i 'm sure vary from place to place . but i think the ideally , it seems to me anyway , that you you would wan na do the same thing in training as you do in test . but that 's that 's just , uh , a prejudice . and i think anybody working on this with some particular task would experiment . grad c: right . i g i guess the question i had was , um , amount of data e u was the amount of data that you 'd give it to , um update this estimate . because say you if you have say five thousand utterances in your training set , um , and you you keep the mean from the last utterance , by the time it gets to the five thousandth utterance professor d: no , but those are all different people with different i mean , i in y so for instance , in in the in a telephone task , these are different phone calls . so you do n't wan na @ @ { comment } chain it together from a from a different phone call . grad c: ok , so so so they would g s professor d: so it 's within speaker , within phone call , professor g: yeah . professor d: if it 's a dialogue system , it 's within whatever this characteristic you 're trying to get rid of is expected to be consistent over , professor g: hmm . grad c: r and it professor d: right ? grad c: right . ok , so you 'd you and so in training you would start over at at every new phone call or at every new speaker . yeah , professor d: yeah . grad c: ok . professor d: yeah . now , you know , maybe you 'd use something from the others just because at the beginning of a call you do n't know anything , and so you might have some kind of general thing that 's your best guess to start with . but so , s i i you know , a lot of these things are proprietary so we 're doing a little bit of guesswork here . i mean , what do comp what do people do who really face these problems in the field ? well , they have companies and they do n't tell other people exactly what they do . grad c: r right . professor d: but but i mean , when you the the hints that you get from what they when they talk about it are that they do they all do something like this . grad c: right , ok . i see . bec - because i so this smartkom task first off , it 's this tv and movie information system . professor d: yeah , but you might have somebody who 's using it grad c: and yeah . professor d: and then later you might have somebody else who 's using it . grad c: yeah . right . right . i i see . professor d: and so you 'd wan na set some grad c: i was i was about to say . so if if you ask it `` what what movies are on tv tonight ? `` , professor d: yeah . yeah . grad c: if i look at my wristwatch when i say that it 's about two seconds . the way i currently have the mean subtraction , um , set up , the the analysis window is two seconds . professor d: yeah . grad c: so what you just said , about what do you start with , raises a question of what do i start with then ? professor d: mm - hmm . grad c: i guess it because professor d: well , w ok , so in that situation , though , th maybe what 's a little different there , is i think you 're talking about there 's only one it it it also depends we 're getting a little off track here . grad c: oh , right . professor d: r but but but uh , there 's been some discussion about whether the work we 're doing in that project is gon na be for the kiosk or for the mobile or for both . and i think for this kind of discussion it matters . if it 's in the kiosk , then the physical situation is the same . it 's gon na you know , the exact interaction of the microphone 's gon na differ depending on the person and so forth . but at least the basic acoustics are gon na be the same . so f if it 's really in one kiosk , then i think that you could just chain together and and you know , as much as much speech as possible to because what you 're really trying to get at is the is the reverberation characteristic . grad c: yeah . professor d: but in in the case of the mobile , uh , { comment } presumably the acoustic 's changing all over the place . grad c: right . professor d: and in that case you probably do n't wan na have it be endless because you wan na have some sort of it 's it 's not a question of how long do you think it 's you can get an approximation to a stationary something , given that it 's not really stationary . grad c: right . right . professor d: so . professor g: hmm . grad c: and i i g i guess i s just started thinking of another question , which is , for for the very first frame , w what what do i do if i 'm if i take if i use that frame to calculate the mean , then i 'm just gon na get n nothing . professor d: mm - hmm . grad c: um , professor d: right . grad c: so i should probably have some kind of default mean for the first f couple of frames ? professor d: yeah . yeah . grad c: ok . professor d: yeah . or subtract nothing . i mean , it 's grad c: or subtract nothing . and and that 's that 's i guess that 's something that 's p people have figured out how to deal with in cepstral mean subtraction as well ? professor d: yeah , yeah . yeah , people do something . they they , uh , they have some , um , uh , in in cepstral mean subtraction , for short - term window analysis windows , as is usually done , you 're trying to get rid of some very general characteristic . and so , uh , if you have any other information about what a general kind of characteristic would be , then you you can do it there . phd f: you can also you can also reflect the data . so you take , uh you know , i 'm not sure how many frames you need . grad c: uh - huh . phd f: but you take that many from the front and flip it around to a as the negative value . professor d: yeah , that 's yeah . phd f: so you can always professor d: the other thing is that and and i i remember b b n doing this , is that if you have a multi - pass system , um , if the first pass ta it takes most of the computation , the second and the third pass could be very , very quick , grad c: mmm . professor d: just looking at a relatively small n small , uh , space of hypotheses . grad c: uh - huh . professor d: then you can do your first pass without any subtraction at all . grad c: oh . professor d: and then your second pass , uh , uh , eliminates those most of those hypotheses by , uh by having an improved improved version o of the analysis . grad c: ok . ok . professor d: so . grad c: ok . so that was all i had , for now . professor d: yeah . phd f: do you wan na go , barry ? grad a: yeah , ok . um , so for the past , uh , week an or two , i 've been just writing my , uh , formal thesis proposal . um , so i 'm taking this qualifier exam that 's coming up in two weeks . and i i finish writing a proposal and submit it to the committee . um . and uh , should i should i explain , uh , more about what what i 'm proposing to do , and s and stuff ? professor d: yes , briefly . phd f: yeah briefly . grad a: ok . um , so briefly , i 'm proposing to do a n a new p approach to speech recognition using um , a combination of , uh , multi - band ideas and ideas , um , { comment } about the uh , acoustic phonec phonetic approach to speech recognition . um , so i will be using these graphical models that um , that implement the multi - band approach to recognize a set of intermediate categories that might involve , uh , things like phonetic features or other other f feature things that are more closely related to the acoustic signal itself . um , and the hope in all of this is that by going multi - band and by going into these , um intermediate classifications , that we can get a system that 's more robust to to unseen noises , and situations like that . um , and so , some of the research issues involved in this are , um , { comment } one , what kind of intermediate categories do we need to classify ? um , another one is um , what what other types of structures in these multi - band graphical models should we consider in order to um , combine evidence from the sub - bands ? and , uh , the third one is how do we how do we merge all the , uh , information from the individual uh , multi - band classifiers to come up with word word recognition or or phone recognition things . um , so basically that 's that 's what i 've been doing . and , phd f: so you 've got two weeks , huh ? grad a: i got two weeks to brush up on d um , presentation stuff and , um , professor d: oh , i thought you were finishing your thesis in two weeks . grad a: but . oh , that too . professor d: yeah . grad a: yeah . phd f: are you gon na do any dry runs for your thing , grad a: yes . phd f: or are you just gon na grad a: yes . i , um i 'm i 'm gon na do some . would you be interested ? to help out ? phd f: sure . grad a: ok . phd f: sure . grad a: thanks . yeah . phd f: is that it ? grad a: that 's it . phd f: hhh . ok . uh . hhh . let 's see . so we 've got forty minutes left , and it seems like there 's a lot of material . an - any suggestions about where we where we should go next ? phd b: mmm , @ @ . phd f: uh . do you wan na go , sunil ? maybe we 'll just start with you . phd b: yeah . but i actually stuck most of this in our m last meeting with guenter . um , but i 'll just um , so the last week , uh , i showed some results with only speechdat - car which was like some fifty - six percent . and , uh , i did n't h i mean , i i found that the results i mean , i was n't getting that r results on the ti - digit . so i was like looking into `` why , what is wrong with the ti - digits ? `` . why why i was not getting it . and i found that , the noise estimation is a reason for the ti - digits to perform worse than the baseline . so , uh , i actually , picked th i mean , the first thing i did was i just scaled the noise estimate by a factor which is less than one to see if that because i found there are a lot of zeros in the spectrogram for the ti - digits when i used this approach . so the first thing i did was i just scaled the noise estimate . and i found so the the results that i 've shown here are the complete results using the new well , the n the new technique is nothing but the noise estimate scaled by a factor of point five . so it 's just an ad - hoc i mean , some intermediate result , because it 's not optimized for anything . so the results the trend the only trend i could see from those results was like the the p the current noise estimation or the , uh , noise composition scheme is working good for like the car noise type of thing . because i 've the only only p very good result in the ti - digits is the noise car noise condition for their test - a , which is like the best i could see that uh , for any non - stationary noise like `` babble `` or `` subway `` or any `` street `` , some `` restaurant `` noise , it 's like it 's not performing w very well . so , the so that that 's the first thing i c uh , i could make out from this stuff . and professor g: yeah , i think what is important to see is that there is a big difference between the training modes . phd b: yeah . professor g: uh - huh . if you have clean training , you get also a fifty percent improvement . phd b: yeah . professor g: but if you have muddy condition training you get only twenty percent . phd b: yeah . yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: uh , and in that twenty percent @ @ it 's very inconsistent across different noise conditions . professor g: mm - hmm . mmm . phd b: so i have like a forty - five percent for `` car noise `` and then there 's a minus five percent for the `` babble `` , professor g: mmm . phd b: and there 's this thirty - three for the `` station `` . and so it 's it 's not it 's not actually very consistent across . so . the only correlation between the speechdat - car and this performance is the c stationarity of the noise that is there in these conditions and the speechdat - car . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: and , uh so so the overall result is like in the last page , which is like forty - seven , which is still very imbalanced because there are like fifty - six percent on the speechdat - car and thirty - five percent on the ti - digits . and uh , ps the fifty - six percent is like comparable to what the french telecom gets , but the thirty - five percent is way off . professor d: i 'm sort of confused but this i 'm looking on the second page , phd b: oh , yep . professor d: and it says `` fifty percent `` looking in the lower right - hand corner , `` fifty percent relative performance `` . professor g: for the clean training . professor d: is that professor g: u and if you if you look professor d: is that fifty percent improvement ? phd b: yeah . for that 's for the clean training and the noisy testing for the ti - digits . professor g: yeah . professor d: so it 's improvement over the baseline mel cepstrum ? phd b: yeah . yeah . professor d: but the baseline mel cepstrum under those training does n't do as well i i 'm i 'm trying to understand why it 's it 's eighty percent that 's an accuracy number , i guess , phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah . professor d: right ? so that 's not as good as the one up above . phd b: no . professor d: but the fifty is better than the one up above , phd b: yeah . professor d: so i 'm confused . phd b: uh , actually the noise compensation whatever , uh , we are put in it works very well for the high mismatch condition . i mean , it 's consistent in the speechdat - car and in the clean training also it gives it but this fifty percent is is that the the high mismatch performance equivalent to the high mismatch performance in the speech . phd f: so n s so since the high mismatch performance is much worse to begin with , it 's easier to get a better relative improvement . phd b: yeah . yeah . i do . yeah , yeah . so by putting this noise phd e: yeah . yeah , if we look at the figures on the right , we see that the reference system is very bad . professor d: oh . phd b: yeah . the reference drops like a very fast professor d: oh , oh , oh , oh , oh , oh . phd e: like for clean clean training condition . professor d: i see . phd b: yeah . professor d: i see . phd e: nnn . professor d: this is this is ti digits { comment } we 're looking at ? phd b: yeah . yeah . oh professor d: this whole page is ti - digits phd b: oh . yeah . professor d: or this is ? phd b: it 's not written anywhere . yeah , it 's ti - digits . the first r spreadsheet is ti - digits . professor d: mmm . how does clean training do for the , uh , `` car `` professor g: hmm . phd b: the `` car `` ? professor d: stuff ? phd b: oh . still it still , uh that that 's still consistent . i mean , i get the best performance in the case of `` car `` , which is the third column in the a condition . professor d: no . i mean , this is added noise . i mean , this is ti - digits . i 'm sorry . i meant in in the in the , uh , multi - language , uh , uh , finnish and phd b: uh professor g: this is next next page . phd b: that 's the next next spreadsheet , is professor g: hmm . phd b: so that is the performance for italian , finnish and spanish . professor d: `` training condition `` oh , right . so `` clean `` corresponds to `` high mismatch `` . phd b: yeah . professor d: and `` increase `` , that 's increase e professor g: improvement . phd b: improvement . that 's `` percentage increase `` is the percentage improvement over the baseline . professor g: yeah . it 's it 's a phd b: so that 's professor d: which means decrease in word error rate ? phd b: yeah . professor d: ok , so `` percentage increase `` means decrease ? phd b: yeah , yeah . professor d: ok . professor g: yeah . the the w there was a very long discussion about this on on the on the , uh , amsterdam meeting . professor d: yeah . professor g: how to how to calculate it then . phd b: yeah . there 's there 's a professor g: i i i guess you are using finally this the scheme which they phd b: which is there in the spreadsheet . professor g: ok . phd b: i 'm not changing anything in there . professor g: mmm . professor d: alright . phd b: so . uh , yeah . so all the hi h m numbers are w very good , in the sense , they are better than what the french telecom gets . so . but the the only number that 's still i mean , which stephane also got in his result was that medium mismatch of the finnish , which is very which is a very strange situation where we used the we changed the proto for initializing the hmm i mean , this this is basically because it gets stuck in some local minimum in the training . that seventy - five point seven nine in the finnish mismatch which is that the eleven point nine six what we see . professor d: uh - huh . professor g: mmm . phd b: yeah . professor d: so we have to jiggle it somehow ? phd b: yeah so we start with that different proto and it becomes eighty - eight , which is like some fifty percent improvement . professor d: s wait a minute . start with a different what ? phd b: different prototype , which is like a different initialization for the , uh , s transition probabilities . it 's just that right now , the initialization is to stay more in the current state , which is point four point six , right ? yeah . phd e: yeah . phd b: and if it changes to point five point five , which is equal @ @ for transition and self loop where it becomes eighty - eight percent . phd f: well , but that involves mucking with the back - end , phd b: yeah . we ca n't do it . phd f: which is not allowed . phd b: yeah . phd e: mmm . phd f: yeah . phd b: so . professor g: i mean , it uh , like , i i i it is well known , this this medium match condition of the finnish data has some strange effects . phd b: very s phd e: yeah . phd b: it has a very few at uh , actually , c uh , tran i mean , words also . professor g: i mean , that is yeah , phd b: it 's a very , very small set , actually . professor g: that too . yeah . uh - huh . phd b: so there is professor g: there is a l a there is a lot of uh , there are a lot of utterances with music in with music in the background . phd b: yeah . yeah , yeah , yeah . yeah . professor g: mmm . professor d: uh - huh . phd b: yeah . it has some music also . i mean , very horrible music like like i know . professor d: so maybe for that one you need a much smarter vad ? mmm , phd b: uh professor d: if it 's music . phd b: so , that that 's the that 's about the results . and , uh , the summary is like ok . so there are the other thing what i tried was , which i explained in the last meeting , is using the channel zero for , uh , for both dropping and estimating the noise . and that 's like just to f n get a feel of how good it is . i guess the fifty - six percent improvement in the speechdat - car becomes like sixty - seven percent . like ten percent better . but that 's that 's not a that 's a cheating experiment . so . that 's just so , m w professor g: but the but the , uh , forty - seven point nine percent which you have now , that 's already a remarkable improvement in comparison to the first proposal . phd b: yeah . so we had forty - four percent in the first proposal . professor g: ok . phd b: yeah . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: we have f a big im so the major improvement that we got was in all the high mismatch cases , because all those numbers were in sixties and seventies because we never had any noise compensations . professor g: mmm . phd b: so that 's where the biggest improvement came up . not much in the well match and the medium match and ti - digits also right now . so this is still at three or four percent improvement over the first proposal . professor g: mmm . mmm . professor d: yeah , so that 's good . phd b: yeah . so . professor d: then if we can improve the noise estimation , then it should get better . professor g: yeah , i i started thinking about also i mean yeah , uh , i discovered the same problem when i started working on uh , on this aurora task almost two years ago , that you have the problem with this mulit a at the beginning we had only this multi condition training of the ti - digits . phd b: yeah . professor g: and , uh , i i found the same problem . just taking um , what we were used to u use , i mean , uh , some type of spectral subtraction , { comment } y you get even worse results than the basis phd b: yeah . yeah , professor g: and uh phd b: yeah . professor g: i i tried to find an explanation for it , professor d: mmm . professor g: so phd b: so . yes . stephane also has the same experience of using the spectral subtraction right ? professor g: mmm . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . so here here i mean , i found that it 's if i changed the noise estimate i could get an improvement . phd e: yeah . phd b: so that 's so it 's something which i can actually pursue , is the noise estimate . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: and professor g: yeah , i think what you do is in when when you have the the this multi - condition training mode , um then you have then you can train models for the speech , for the words , as well as for the pauses where you really have all information about the noise available . phd b: yeah . professor g: and it was surprising at the beginning it was not surprising to me that you get really the best results on doing it this way , i mean , in comparison to any type of training on clean data and any type of processing . but it was so , u u it it seems to be the best what wh wh what what we can do in this moment is multi - condition training . and every when we now start introducing some some noise reduction technique we we introduce also somehow artificial distortions . phd b: yeah . professor g: and these artificial distortions uh , i have the feeling that they are the reason why why we have the problems in this multi - condition training . that means the h m ms we trained , they are they are based on gaussians , phd b: yeah . professor g: and on modeling gaussians . and if you can i move a little bit with this ? yeah . and if we introduce now this this u spectral subtraction , or wiener filtering stuff so , usually what you have is maybe , um i 'm i 'm showing now an envelope um maybe you 'll f for this time . so usually you have maybe in clean condition you have something which looks like this . and if it is noisy it is somewhere here . and then you try to subtract it or wiener filter or whatever . and what you get is you have always these problems , that you have this these these these zeros in there . phd b: yeah . professor g: and you have to do something if you get these negative values . i mean , this is your noise estimate and you somehow subtract it or do whatever . uh , and then you have and then i think what you do is you introduce some some artificial distribution in this uh in in the models . i mean , i you you train it also this way but , i somehow there is u u there is no longer a a gaussian distribution . it is somehow a strange distribution which we introduce with these artificial distortions . and and i was thinking that that might be the reason why you get these problems in the especially in the multi - condition training mode . phd b: yeah , yeah . professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: th - that 's true . yeah the c the models are not complex enough to absorb that additional variability that you 're introducing . professor g: s phd f: thanks adam . professor g: yeah . yes . phd b: well , that 's yeah . so phd e: i also have the feeling that um , the reason ye why it does n't work is yeah , that the models are much are t um , not complex enough . because i actually i als always had a good experience with spectral subtraction , just a straight spectral subtraction algorithm when i was using neural networks , big neural networks , which maybe are more able to model strange distributions and professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: but yeah . then i tried the same exactly the same spectral subtraction algorithm on these aurora tasks and it simply does n't work . it 's even it , uh , hurts even . professor g: hmm . phd e: so . professor d: we probably should at some point here try the tandem the the the system - two kind of stuff with this , with the spectral subtraction for that reason . professor g: hmm . professor d: cuz again , it should do a transformation to a domain where it maybe looks more gaussian . professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: hmm . yeah , y i i was whe w w just yesterday when i was thinking about it um w what what we could try to do , or do about it i mean , if you if you get at this in this situation that you get this this negative values and you simply set it to zero or to a constant or whatever if we if we would use there a somehow , um a random generator which which has a certain distribution , u not a certain { comment } yeah , a special distribution we should see we we have to think about it . phd b: it 's professor g: and that we , so , introduce again some natural behavior in this trajectory . professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: mm - hmm . very different from speech . still , i mean , it should n't confuse the professor g: yeah , i mean , similar to what what you see really u in in the real um noisy situation . phd b: ok . mm - hmm . professor g: or i in the clean situation . but but somehow a a natural distribution . professor d: but is n't that s again sort of the idea of the additive thing , if it as as we had in the j stuff ? i mean , basically if if you have random data , um , in in the time domain , then when you look at the s spectrum it 's gon na be pretty flat . and and , professor g: mm - hmm . professor d: uh , so just add something everywhere rather than just in those places . it 's just a constant , right ? phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah . i think e yeah . it 's it 's just especially in these segments , i mean , you introduce , um , very artificial behavior . professor d: yeah . yeah . professor g: and professor d: well , see if you add something everywhere , it has almost no effect up up up on on top . and it and it and it has significant effect down there . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: that was , sort of the idea . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: hmm . yeah the that 's true . that those those regions are the cause for this @ @ those negative values or whatever you get . professor g: i mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . so . professor g: i mean , we we could trit uh , we we could think how w what what we could try . phd b: yeah . yeah , yeah . professor g: i mean , it it was just an idea . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: i mean , we professor d: i think when it 's noisy people should just speak up . professor g: to mmm . phd b: so phd e: if we look at the france telecom proposal , they use some kind of noise addition . they have a random number generator , right ? and they add noise on the trajectory of , uh , the log energy only , right ? professor d: oh , they do ! phd b: yep . professor d: oh . phd b: c - z c - zero and log energy also , yeah . phd e: yeah . um , but i do n't know how much effect it this have , but they do that . phd b: now ? phd e: yeah . phd b: oh . professor g: uh - huh . professor d: hmm . professor g: so it it it it it is l somehow similar to what phd e: i think because they have th log energy , yeah , and then just generate random number . they have some kind of mean and variance , and they add this number to to the log energy simply . um phd b: yeah the the log energy , the after the clean cleaning up . professor d: to the l phd b: so they add a random random noise to it . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: to the just the energy , or to the mel uh , to the mel filter ? phd b: no . on - only to the log energy . phd e: only yeah . professor d: oh . professor g: uh - huh . professor d: so it cuz i mean , i think this is most interesting for the mel filters . right ? professor g: uh - huh . professor d: or or f f one or the other . professor g: but but they do not apply filtering of the log energy or what phd b: like , uh i mean professor g: like like a spectral subtraction or phd b: no their filter is not m domain . s so they did filter their time signal professor g: yeah . i kn phd b: and then what @ @ u professor g: and then they calculate from this , the log energy phd b: yeah then after that it is s almost the same as the baseline prop system . professor g: or ? mm - hmm . phd b: and then the final log energy that they that they get , that to the to that they add some random noise . professor d: yeah , but again , that 's just log energy as opposed to filter bank energy . phd b: yeah . so it 's not the mel . professor g: mmm . phd b: you know , it 's not the mel filter bank output . professor d: yeah . phd b: these are log energy computed from the time s domain signal , professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: not from the mel filter banks . so did professor d: hmm . phd e: maybe it 's just a way to decrease the importance of this particular parameter in the in the world feature vector cu if you add noise to one of the parameters , you widen the distributions professor d: hmm . phd b: becomes flat . the variance , yeah , reduces , phd e: and phd b: so . hmm , yeah . phd e: eee - sss - uh . professor d: so it could reduce the dependence on the amplitude and so on . yeah . phd e: yeah . phd b: yeah . although professor d: maybe . phd e: mm - hmm . phd f: so is , uh is that about it ? phd b: uh , so the phd f: or ? phd b: ok . so the other thing is the i 'm just looking at a little bit on the delay issue where the delay of the system is like a hundred and eighty millisecond . so i just just tried another sk system i mean , another filter which i 've like shown at the end . which is very similar to the existing uh , filter . only uh , only thing is that the phase is is like a totally nonlinear phase because it 's a it 's not a symmetric filter anymore . phd f: this is for the lda ? phd b: yeah so so this this is like so this makes the delay like zero for lda because it 's completely causal . phd f: oh . phd b: so so i got actually just the results for the italian for that and that 's like so the fifty - one point o nine has become forty - eight point o six , which is like three percent relative degradation . so i have like the fifty - one point o nine phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: and so . i do n't know it f fares for the other conditions . so it 's just like it 's like a three percent relative degradation , with the professor g: but but is there is there a problem with the one hundred eighty milliseconds ? or ? phd b: u uh , may professor d: th - well , this is professor g: yeah , i mean , i talked to to uh , i ta uh , i talked , uh , about it with with hynek . i mean , there is professor d: this is so so , basically our our position is that , um , we should n't be unduly constraining the latency at this point because we 're all still experimenting with trying to make the performance better in the presence of noise . uh , there is a minority in that group who is a arguing who are arguing for um , uh , having a further constraining of the latency . so we 're s just continuing to keep aware of what the trade - offs are and , you know , what what do we gain from having longer or shorter latencies ? professor g: mmm . professor d: but since we always seem to at least get something out of longer latencies not being so constrained , we 're tending to go with that if we 're not told we ca n't do it . phd f: what where was the , um the smallest latency of all the systems last time ? professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: the french telecom . professor d: well , france telecom was was was very short latency professor g: it 's professor d: and they had a very good result . phd f: what what was it ? professor d: it was thirty - five . professor g: it was in the order of thirty milliseconds professor d: yeah . professor g: or phd f: thirteen ? professor d: th th professor g: thirty . phd f: thirty . phd b: thirty - four . professor d: yeah . professor g: yeah . professor d: yeah , so it 's possible to get very short latency . professor g: professor d: but , again , we 're the the approaches that we 're using are ones that take advantage of phd f: yeah . i was just curious about where we are compared to , you know , the shortest that people have done . professor g: but but i think this thirty milliseconds they they did it did not include the the delta calculation . phd b: yeah . yeah . yeah . professor g: and this is included now , phd b: yeah . yeah . professor g: you know ? phd b: so if they include the delta , it will be an additional forty millisecond . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: yeah . professor g: yeah . i i do n't remember the i th they were not using the htk delta ? phd b: no , they 're using a nine - point window , which is like a four on either side , professor g: nine - point . phd b: which is like professor g: ok . phd b: f so professor g: mmm . phd b: they did n't include that . professor d: yeah . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: so phd e: where does the comprish compression in decoding delay comes from ? phd f: ok . phd e: phd b: that 's the way the the the frames are packed , like you have to wait for one more frame to pack . because it 's the crc is computed for two frames always . professor d: well , that the they would need that forty milliseconds also . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: no . they actually changed the compression scheme altogether . professor d: right ? phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: so they have their own compression and decoding scheme and they i do n't know what they have . professor d: oh . phd b: but they have coded zero delay for that . because they ch i know they changed it , their compression . they have their own crc , their their own error correction mechanism . professor d: oh . phd b: so they do n't have to wait more than one more frame to know whether the current frame is in error . professor d: oh , ok . phd b: so they changed the whole thing so that there 's no delay for that compression and part also . professor d: hmm . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: even you have reported actually zero delay for the compression . i thought maybe you also have some different professor g: mmm . mmm . no , i think i i used this scheme as it was before . phd b: ok . ah . mm - hmm . phd f: ok , we 've got twenty minutes so we should probably try to move along . uh , did you wan na go next , stephane ? phd e: i can go next . yeah . mmm . professor d: oh . wait a minute . it 's phd e: it 's yeah , we have to take professor d: wait a minute . i think i 'm confused . phd e: well ok . professor d: alright . phd e: so you have w w one sheet ? this one is you do n't need it , alright . professor d: uh phd e: so you have to take the whole the five . there should be five sheets . professor d: ok , phd e: professor d: i have four now because i left one with dave because i thought i was dropping one off and passing the others on . so , no , we 're not . ok . phd b: thanks . phd h: please give me one . professor d: ah , we need one more over here . phd e: ok , maybe there 's not enough for everybody . phd f: i can share with barry . grad a: yeah . professor d: oh , ok . phd e: but can we look at this ? professor g: ok . grad c: yeah . phd e: so , yeah , there are two figures showing actually the , mmm , um , performance of the current vad . so it 's a n neural network based on plp parameters , uh , which estimate silence probabilities , and then i just put a median filtering on this to smooth the probabilities , right ? um i did n't use the the scheme that 's currently in the proposal because i do n't want to in the proposal well , in in the system we want to add like speech frame before every word and a little bit of of , uh , s a couple of frames after also . uh , but to estimate the performance of the vad , we do n't want to do that , because it would artificially increase the um the false alarm rate of speech detection . right ? um , so , there is u normally a figure for the finnish and one for italian . and maybe someone has two for the italian because i 'm missing one figure here . phd b: no . phd e: well well , whatever . uh yeah , so one surprising thing that we can notice first is that apparently the speech miss rate is uh , higher than the false alarm rate . so . it means professor g: so so what is the lower curve and the upper curve ? phd e: mm - hmm . yeah , there are two curves . one curve 's for the close - talking microphone , which is the lower curve . professor g: yeah . phd e: and the other one is for the distant microphone professor g: ah , ok . phd e: which has more noise so , it 's logical that it performs worse . so as i was saying , the miss rate is quite important uh , which means that we tend to label speech as as a silence . and , uh , i did n't analyze further yet , but i think it 's it may be due to the fricative sounds which may be in noisy condition maybe label labelled as silence . and it may also be due to the alignment because well , the reference alignment . because right now i just use an alignment obtained from from a system trained on channel zero . and i checked it a little bit but there might be alignment errors . um , yeah , e like the fact that the the models tend to align their first state on silence and their last state o on silence also . so the reference reference alignment would label as speech some silence frame before speech and after speech . this is something that we already noticed before when mmm , so this cus this could also explain , uh , the high miss rate maybe . uh professor g: and and this this curves are the average over the whole database , so . phd e: yeah . right . professor g: mmm . phd e: um yeah , and the different points of the curves are for five uh , thresholds on the probability { comment } uh from point three to point seven . phd b: so that threshold phd e: mm - hmm . yeah . phd b: ok . s ok so d the detection threshold is very phd e: so the v phd b: yeah , yeah . phd e: the vad ? yeah . there first , a threshold on the probability { comment } @ @ { comment } that puts all the values to zero or one . phd b: mmm . phd e: and then the median filtering . phd b: yeah , so the median filtering is fixed . you just change the threshold ? phd e: yeah . it 's fixed , phd b: yeah . phd e: yeah . mm - hmm . so , going from channel zero to channel one , uh , almost double the error rate . um , yeah . well , so it 's a reference performance that we can you know , if we want to to work on the vad , { comment } we can work on this basis phd h: phd b: mm - hmm . phd e: and phd b: ok . grad a: is this is this vad a mlp ? phd e: yeah . grad a: ok . how how big is it ? phd e: it 's a very big one . i do n't remember . phd b: so three three hundred and fifty inputs , phd e: m phd b: uh , six thousand hidden nodes and two outputs . t t grad a: ok . phd b: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: middle - sized one . phd b: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: phd e: yeah . uh , ppp . i do n't know , you have questions about that , or suggestions ? phd b: mmm . s so phd e: it seems the performance seems worse in finnish , which phd b: well , it 's not trained on finnish . phd e: uh phd h: it 's worse . phd e: it 's not trained on finnish , yeah . professor d: what 's it trained on ? phd b: i mean , the mlp 's not trained on finnish . professor d: right , what 's it trained on ? phd b: oh oh . sorry . uh , it 's italian ti - digits . professor d: yeah . oh , it 's trained on italian ? phd b: yeah . professor d: yeah , ok . phd e: mm - hmm . and phd b: that 's right . professor d: ok . phd e: and also there are like funny noises on finnish more than on italian . i mean , like music professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . yeah , the yeah , it 's true . phd e: and um so , yeah , we were looking at this . but for most of the noises , noises are um , i do n't know if we want to talk about that . but , well , the the `` car `` noises are below like five hundred hertz . and we were looking at the `` music `` utterances and in this case the noise is more about two thousand hertz . phd b: yeah . phd e: well , the music energy 's very low apparently . uh , uh , from zero to two two thousand hertz . so maybe just looking at this frequency range for from five hundred to two thousand would improve somewhat the vad phd b: mmm . phd e: and phd b: yeah . phd e: mmm phd b: so there are like some some s some parameters you wanted to use or something ? phd e: yeah , but yes . phd b: or yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . uh , the next , um oh , it 's there . professor g: so is the is the is the training is the training based on these labels files which you take as reference here ? phd e: yeah . professor g: wh - when you train the neural net y y you phd e: no . it 's not . it 's it was trained on some alignment obtained um , uh for the italian data , i think we trained the neural network on with embedded training . so re - estimation of the alignment using the neural network , i guess . that 's right ? phd b: yeah . we actually trained , uh , the on the italian training part . phd e: yeah . phd b: we we had another system with u phd e: so it was a f f a phonetic classification system for the italian aurora data . phd b: yeah . it must be somewhere . yeah . phd e: for the aurora data that it was trained on , it was different . like , for ti - digits you used a a previous system that you had , i guess . phd b: what no it yeah , yeah . that 's true . phd e: so the alignments from the different database that are used for training came from different system . phd b: syste yeah . phd e: then we put them tog together . well , you put them together and trained the vad on them . phd b: yeah . phd e: mmm . phd b: yeah . professor g: hmm . phd e: uh , but did you use channel did you align channel one also ? or phd b: i just took their entire italian training part . phd e: yeah . phd b: so it was both channel zero plus channel one . phd e: so di yeah . so the alignments might be wrong then on channel one , right ? phd b: on one . possible . phd e: so we might , phd b: we can do a realignment . phd e: yeah , phd b: that 's true . phd e: at least want to retrain on these alignments , which should be better because they come from close - talking microphone . professor g: yeah , the that was my idea . i mean , if if it ha if it is not the same labeling which is taking the spaces . phd b: yeah . phd e: ok . phd b: yeah , possible . phd e: yeah . professor g: mmm . phd b: i mean , it so the system phd e: yeah . phd b: so the vad was trained on maybe different set of labels for channel zero and channel one phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: and professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: was the alignments were w were different for s certainly different because they were independently trained . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: we did n't copy the channel zero alignments to channel one . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . phd e: yeah . phd b: but for the new alignments what you generated , you just copied the channel zero to channel one , right ? yeah . phd e: right . yeah . um . and eh , hhh actually when we look at at the vad , for some utterances it 's almost perfect , i mean , it just dropped one frame , the first frame of speech or so there are some utterances where it 's almost one hundred percent vad performance . professor g: hmm . phd e: uh , but yeah . mmm yep . so the next thing is um , i have the spreadsheet for three different system . but for this you only have to look right now on the speechdat - car performance uh , because i did n't test so i did n't test the spectral subtraction on ti - digits yet . uh , so you have three she sheets . one is the um proposal - one system . actually , it 's not exe exactly proposal - one . it 's the system that sunil just described . um , but with uh , wiener filtering from um , france telecom included . um , so this gives like fifty - seven point seven percent , uh , s uh , error rate reduction on the speechdat - car data . mmm , and then i have two sheets where it 's for a system where uh , so it 's again the same system . but in this case we have spectral subtraction with a maximum overestimation factor of two point five . uh , there is smoothing of the gain trajectory with some kind of uh , low - pass filter , which has forty milliseconds latency . and then , after subtraction um , i add a constant to the energies and i have two cases d where the first case is where the constant is twenty - five db below the mean speech energy and the other is thirty db below . um , and for these s two system we have like fifty - five point , uh , five - percent improvement , and fifty - eight point one . so again , it 's around fifty - six , fifty - seven . uh professor d: cuz i notice the ti - digits number is exactly the same for these last two ? phd e: yeah , because i did n't for the france telecom uh , spectral subtraction included in the our system , the ti - digits number are the right one , but not for the other system because i did n't test it yet this system , including with spectral subtraction on the ti - digits data . i just tested it on speechdat - car . professor d: ah ! so so that means the only thing professor g: mm - hmm . so so so these numbers are simply phd e: this , we have to yeah . phd b: but this number . professor d: yeah . professor g: yeah . professor d: so you so you just should look at that fifty - eight perc point o nine percent and so on . phd e: yes . professor g: ok . phd e: right . right . professor d: ok . good . phd e: mm - hmm . um , yeah . phd b: so this so by uh , by by reducing the noise a a decent threshold like minus thirty db , it 's like uh , you are like r r reducing the floor of the noisy regions , right ? professor g: s phd e: yeah . yeah . the floor is lower . um , phd b: uh - huh . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: i 'm sorry . so when you say minus twenty - five or minus thirty db , with respect to what ? phd e: to the average um , speech energy which is estimated on the world database . professor d: ok , so basically you 're creating a signal - to - noise ratio of twenty - five or thirty db ? phd e: yeah . professor d: uh r phd e: but it 's not professor g: i i i think what you do is this . phd e: it it 's professor g: i when when you have this , after you subtracted it , i mean , then you get something w w with this , uh , where you set the values to zero and then you simply add an additive constant again . phd e: yeah . professor g: so you shift it somehow . this this whole curve is shifted again . professor d: but did you do that before the thresholding to zero , phd e: right . it 's professor d: or ? phd e: but , it 's after the thresholding . professor g: professor d: oh , phd e: so , professor d: so you 'd really want to do it before , phd e: maybe professor d: right ? phd e: maybe we might do it before , professor d: yeah , because then the then you would have less of that phenomenon . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor d: i think . phd e: uh professor g: e hhh . phd e: yeah . professor d: c phd e: but still , when you do this and you take the log after that , it it reduce the the variance . professor d: yeah , it it right . phd e: but mmm , professor d: yeah , that will reduce the variance . that 'll help . but maybe if you does do it before you get less of these funny - looking things he 's drawing . professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: um , phd b: so before it 's like adding this , col to the to the o exi original professor g: but but phd e: we would professor d: right at the point where you 've done the subtraction . phd b: ok . professor d: um , essentially you 're adding a constant into everything . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: but the way stephane did it , it is exactly the way i have implemented in the phone , so . professor d: oh , yeah , better do it different , then . yeah . phd e: um . professor d: just you you just ta you just set it for a particular signal - to - noise ratio that you want ? phd e: yeah . professor g: yeah i i made s similar investigations like stephane did here , just uh , adding this constant and and looking how dependent is it on the value of the constant professor d: yeah . yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: and then , must choose them somehow to give on average the best results for a certain range of the signal - to - noise ratios . professor d: uh - huh . phd e: yeah . mm - hmm . professor g: so phd e: oh , it 's clear . i should have gi given other results . also it 's clear when you do n't add noise , it 's much worse . like , around five percent worse i guess . professor d: uh - huh . phd e: and if you add too much noise it get worse also . and it seems that right now this this is c a constant that does not depend on { comment } on anything that you can learn from the utterance . it 's just a constant noise addition . um . and i i think w w professor d: i i 'm sorry . then then i 'm confused . phd e: i think professor d: i thought you 're saying it does n't depend on the utterance but i thought you were adding an amount that was twenty - five db down from the signal energy . phd e: yeah , so the way i did that , { comment } i i just measured the average speech energy of the all the italian data . professor d: oh ! phd e: and then i i have i used this as mean speech energy . mm - hmm . professor d: oh , it 's just a constant amount over all . phd e: yeah . and phd b: ok . phd e: wha what i observed is that for italian and spanish , { comment } when you go to thirty and twenty - five db , { comment } uh it it 's good . phd b: oh . phd e: it stays in this range , it 's , uh , the p u well , the performance of the this algorithm is quite good . but for finnish , you have a degradation already when you go from thirty - five to thirty and then from thirty to twenty - five . and i have the feeling that maybe it 's because just finnish has a mean energy that 's lower than than the other databases . and due to this the thresholds should be professor d: yeah . phd e: the the a the noise addition should be lower professor d: but in i mean , in the real thing you 're not gon na be able to measure what people are doing over half an hour or an hour , or anything , right ? phd e: and professor d: so you have to come up with this number from something else . phd e: yeah . so professor g: uh , but you are not doing it now language dependent ? or ? phd e: it 's not . it 's just something that 's fixed . professor g: no . it 's overall . phd e: yeah . professor g: ok . phd e: mm - hmm . um professor d: but what he is doing language dependent is measuring what that number i reference is that he comes down twenty - five down from . phd e: yeah , so i g no . it no . professor d: no ? phd e: because i did it i started working on italian . i obtained this average energy professor d: yeah . phd e: and then i used this one . phd b: for all the languages . ok . phd e: yeah . professor d: so it 's sort of arbitrary . phd b: yeah . professor d: i mean , so if y if yeah . phd e: yep . professor d: yeah . phd e: um , yeah , so the next thing is to use this as as maybe initialization professor d: uh - huh . phd e: and then use something on - line . professor d: something more adaptive , phd e: but and i expect improvement at least in finnish because eh the way professor d: yeah . ok . phd e: well , um , for italian and spanish it 's th this value works good but not necessarily for finnish . mmm . but unfortunately there is , like , this forty millisecond latency and , um yeah , so i would try to somewhat reduce this @ @ . i already know that if i completely remove this latency , so . um , { comment } it um there is a three percent hit on italian . professor g: mm - hmm . phd b: d does latency professor g: i phd b: sorry . go ahead . professor g: yeah . your your smoothing was @ @ { comment } uh , over this s so to say , the the factor of the wiener . and then it 's , uh what was it ? this phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: this smoothing , it was over the subtraction factor , so to say . phd e: it 's a smoothing over the the gain of the subtraction algorithm . professor g: was this done mm - hmm . and and you are looking into the future , into the past . phd e: right . professor g: and smoothing . phd e: so , to smooth this thing . professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: yeah . um professor g: and did did you try simply to smooth um to smooth the the t to to smooth stronger the the envelope ? phd e: um , no , i did not . professor g: mmm . phd e: mmm . professor g: because i mean , it should have a similar effect if you phd e: yeah . professor g: i mean , you you have now several stages of smoothing , so to say . you start up . as far as i remember you you smooth somehow the envelope , you smooth somehow the noise estimate , phd e: mm - hmm . mmm professor g: and and later on you smooth also this subtraction factor . phd e: uh , no , it 's it 's just the gain that 's smoothed actually phd b: uh , actually i d i do all the smoothing . phd e: but it 's smoothed professor g: ah . oh , it w it was you . phd b: yeah , yeah . phd e: uh yeah . professor g: yeah . phd e: yeah . no , in this case it 's just the gain . professor g: yeah . phd e: and professor g: uh - huh . phd e: but the way it 's done is that um , for low gain , there is this non nonlinear smoothing actually . for low gains um , i use the smoothed sm uh , smoothed version but for high gain @ @ { comment } it 's i do n't smooth . professor g: uh . mm - hmm . i just , uh it experience shows you , if if you do the the best is to do the smoo smoothing as early as possible . phd e: uh - huh . professor g: so w when you start up . i mean , you start up with the with the somehow with the noisy envelope . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: and , best is to smooth this somehow . phd e: mm - hmm . uh , yeah , i could try this . um . professor g: and phd b: so , before estimating the snr , @ @ smooth the envelope . professor g: yeah . yeah . uh - huh . phd e: mm - hmm . but yeah . then i i would need to find a way to like smooth less also when there is high energy . cuz i noticed that it it helps a little bit to s like smooth more during low energy portions and less during speech , professor g: yes , y phd e: because if you smooth then y you kind of distort the speech . professor g: yeah . yeah . phd e: um . professor g: right . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah , i think when w you you could do it in this way that you say , if you if i 'm you have somehow a noise estimate , phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: and , if you say i 'm i 'm with my envelope i 'm close to this noise estimate , phd e: yeah . professor g: then you have a bad signal - to - noise ratio and then you you would like to have a stronger smoothing . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: so you could you could base it on your estimation of the signal - to - noise ratio on your actual phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mmm . phd b: yeah , or some silence probability from the vad if you have phd e: um , yeah , but i do n't trust the current vad . so . phd b: yeah , uh , so not not right now maybe . phd e: well , maybe . professor d: the vad later will be much better . phd e: maybe . professor d: yeah . so . i see . phd f: so is that it ? phd e: uh , fff { comment } i think that 's it . yeah . uh . professor g: s so to summarize the performance of these , speechdat - car results is similar than than yours so to say . phd b: yeah , so the fifty - eight is like the be some fifty - six point phd e: yeah . professor g: y you have you have fifty - six point four phd b: yeah , that 's true . professor g: and and and dependent on this additive constant , it is s better or or worse . phd e: yeah . phd b: slightly better . phd e: mm - hmm . phd h: phd b: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . professor g: yeah . phd e: and , yeah , i i i the condition where it 's better than your approach , it 's it just because maybe it 's better on well matched and that the weight on well matched is is bigger , phd b: yeah . yeah , you you caught up . phd e: because phd b: yep , that 's true . phd e: if you do n't weigh differently the different condition , you can see that your well , the win the two - stage wiener filtering is maybe better or phd b: yeah . phd e: it 's better for high mismatch , right ? phd b: yeah , it 's better for high mismatch . phd e: mm - hmm . but a little bit worse for well matched . phd b: so over all it gets , yeah , worse for the well matched condition , so y phd e: uh - huh . phd f: so we need to combine these two . phd b: uh , that 's that 's the best thing , is like the french telecom system is optimized for the well matched condition . they c phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . so they know that the weighting is good for the well matched , and so there 's everywhere the well matched 's s s performance is very good for the french telecom . phd e: yeah . professor g: mm - hmm . phd e: mm - hmm . phd b: t we are we may also have to do something similar @ @ . phd e: mm - hmm . professor d: well , our tradition here has always been to focus on the mismatched . phd b: um the professor d: cuz it 's more interesting . professor g: mu - my mine was it too , i mean . professor d: yeah . professor g: before i started working on this aurora . professor d: yeah . professor g: so . professor d: yeah . yeah . ok . phd f: carmen ? do you , uh phd h: well , i only say that the this is , a summary of the of all the vts experiments and say that the result in the last { comment } um , for italian the last experiment for italian , are bad . i make a mistake when i write . up at d i copy one of the bad result . phd b: so you phd h: and there . you know , this . um , well . if we put everything , we improve a lot u the spectral use of the vts but the final result are not still mmm , good like the wiener filter for example . i do n't know . maybe it 's @ @ { comment } it 's possible to to have the same result . phd b: that 's somewhere phd h: i do n't know exactly . mmm . because i have , mmm , { comment } worse result in medium mismatch and high mismatch . phd b: you s you have a better r yeah . you have some results that are good for the high mismatch . phd h: and yeah . i someti are more or less similar but but are worse . and still i do n't have the result for ti - digits . the program is training . maybe for this weekend i will have result ti - digits and i can complete that s like this . well . professor d: uh . right . phd h: one thing that i { comment } note are not here in this result but are speak are spoken before with sunil i i improve my result using clean lda filter . phd b: mm - hmm . professor d: mm - hmm . phd h: if i use , eh , the lda filter that are training with the noisy speech , that hurts the res my results . professor d: so what are these numbers here ? are these with the clean or with the noisy ? phd h: this is with the clean . professor d: ok . phd h: with the noise i have worse result , that if i does n't use it . professor d: uh - huh . phd h: but m that may be because with this technique we are using really really clean speech . the speech the { comment } representation that go to the htk is really clean speech because it 's from the dictionary , the code book and maybe from that . i do n't know . phd e: mm - hmm . phd h: because i think that you did some experiments using the two the two lda filter , clean and noi and noise , phd e: it 's phd h: and it does n't matter too much . phd e: um , yeah , i did that but it does n't matter on speechdat - car , but , it matters , uh , a lot on ti - digits . phd b: using the clean filter . phd h: it 's better to use clean . phd e: yeah , d uh , it 's much better when you we used the clean derived lda filter . phd h: mm - hmm . maybe you can do d also this . phd b: yeah . phd h: to use clean speech . phd b: yeah , i 'll try . phd e: uh , but , yeah , sunil in in your result it 's phd b: i i 'll try the cle no , i i my result is with the noisy noisy lda . phd e: it 's with the noisy one . yeah . phd b: yeah . professor d: oh ! phd b: it 's with the noisy . yeah . it 's it 's not the clean lda . phd e: so professor d: um phd b: it 's in in the front sheet , i have like like the summary . yeah . professor d: and and your result { comment } is with the phd e: it 's with the clean lda . phd b: oh . this is your results are all with the clean lda result ? phd h: yeah , with the clean lda . phd b: ok . @ @ . phd e: yeah . phd b: phd e: and in your case it 's all all noisy , phd h: is that the reason ? phd b: all noisy , yeah . phd e: yeah . but phd h: and phd b: uh phd e: yeah . phd b: uh phd e: but i observe my case it 's in , uh , uh , at least on speechdat - car it does n't matter but ti - digits it 's like two or three percent absolute , uh , { comment } better . phd b: on ti - digits this matters . absolute . uh professor d: so you really might wan na try the clean i think . phd e: so if phd b: yeah , i i i will have to look at it . yeah , that 's true . professor d: yeah . yeah , that could be sizeable right there . phd h: and this is everything . professor g: yeah . professor d: ok . professor g: maybe you you are leaving in in about two weeks carmen . no ? phd h: yeah . professor g: yeah . so i mean , if if if i would put it put on the head of a project mana manager i i i i would say , uh , um i mean there is not so much time left now . professor d: be my guest . professor g: i mean , if um , what what i would do is i i i would pick @ @ { comment } the best consolation , which you think , and c create create all the results for the whole database that you get to the final number as as sunil did it phd h: and prepare at the s professor g: and um and maybe also to to write somehow a document where you describe your approach , and what you have done . phd h: yeah , i was thinking to do that next week . professor d: yeah . professor g: yeah . professor d: yeah , i 'll i 'll borrow the head back and and agree . yeah , phd h: yeah , i wi i i will do that next week . professor d: that 's that 's right . in fact , actually i g i guess the , uh the spanish government , uh , requires that anyway . they want some kind of report from everybody who 's in the program . phd h: mm - hmm . professor d: so . and of course i 'd we 'd we 'd like to see it too . so , phd h: ok . professor d: yeah . phd f: so , um , what 's do you think we , uh , should do the digits or skip it ? or what are what do you think ? professor d: uh , we have them now ? phd f: yeah , got them . professor d: uh , why don why do n't we do it ? phd f: ok . professor d: just { comment } just take a minute . phd h: i can send yet . phd f: would you pass those down ? professor d: oh ! sorry . phd f: ok , um , so i guess i 'll go ahead . um , professor d: seat ? phd e: dave ? is it the channel , or the mike ? i do n't remember . it 's the mike ? professor d: mike ? phd e: it 's not four . phd h: this is date and time . no . on the channel , channel . professor g: what is this ? phd b: t phd f: ok , if you could just leave , um , your mike on top of your , uh , digit form i can fill in any information that 's missing . professor g: ok . phd f: that 's uh i did n't get a chance to fill them out ahead of time . yeah , we 're gon na have to fix that . uh , let 's see , it starts with one here , and then goes around and ends with nine here . grad a: seven . so i i 'm eight , phd f: so he 's eight , grad a: you 're seven . phd f: you 're seven , grad a: yeah .

professor g was trying to understand where the smoothing took place in phd b 's model . professor g suggested that the smoothing was best done as early as possible .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> lynne neagle am: good afternoon , everyone . welcome to the first virtual meeting of the children , young people and education committee . in accordance with standing order 34.19 , i determine that the public are excluded from the committee 's meeting , in order to protect public health . in accordance with standing order 34.21 , notice of this decision was included in the agenda for this meeting , which was published last friday . this meeting is , however , being broadcast live on senedd.tv , with all participants joining via video conference . a record of the proceedings will be published as usual . aside from the procedural adaptation relating to conducting proceedings remotely , all other standing order requirements for committees remain in place . the meeting is bilingual , and simultaneous translation from welsh to english is available . can i remind all participants that the microphones will be controlled centrally , so there 's no need to turn them on and off individually ? can i ask whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . thank you . can i just then , again , note for the record that , if , for any reason , i drop out of the meeting , the committee has agreed that dawn bowden am will temporarily chair while i try to rejoin ? item 2 , then , this afternoon is an evidence session with the welsh government on the impact of the coronavirus epidemic on education in wales . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams am , minister for education , steve davies , director of the education directorate , and huw morris , who is group director , skills , higher education and lifelong learning . can i welcome you all and thank you for attending ? minister , i understand you 'd like to make a short opening statement . kirsty williams am: thank you very much , lynne . and indeed , if i could just begin by , once again , putting on the record my gratitude to everyone who is helping us get through this pandemic . there are a vast number of people who are keeping our school hubs open , looking after vulnerable children , and the children of key workers . because of them , and their efforts , those key workers are able to carry on their critical roles in responding to covid-19 . i am extremely proud of the way that members of the school community have gone above and beyond . they have kept their schools open out of hours , over the weekends , on bank holidays , and easter . and it is really heartening and humbling to see the way that they have responded to this crisis . and there are teachers , teaching assistants , and many others , who are helping our children and their parents to keep learning at home . i know that home schooling is n't easy , so i want to say also thank you to parents and carers for their efforts at this time . by keeping their children at home , they are helping us to keep people safe , and reducing pressure on our education system , and on our nhs . be in no doubt , we are facing many challenges because of this pandemic . my primary concern is , and always will be , the health and well-being of our children , of our young people , and of all the staff in our education settings . and i am very grateful to everyone who is supporting us in these endeavours . thank you very much—diolch yn fawr . and i 'm now happy to answer questions that members of the committee may have this afternoon . lynne neagle am: thank you very much , minister . i 'm sure that the committee echoes the heartfelt thanks you have just given then . the first questions we 've got this afternoon are from hefin david . hefin david am: good afternoon , minister . with regard to your five principles , which you 've set out today , regarding when schools will reopen , they 're very clear that they require a judgment from you . so could you outline when you think that schools might reopen ? kirsty williams am: thank you , hefin . i am very clear that schools will move to a new phase—because , already , schools are open in many settings ; we will move to a new phase when it is safe to do so and when i have advice from the chief medical officer and the chief scientific officer that it is safe to do so . i have made very clear in my statement that that is not imminent . i know that in some cases there has been speculation that a return to normal could be with us quite shortly . i 'm clear that a return to normal is not imminent , and therefore i 'm not in a position to give a date as to when we will see more schools opening up to more children . hefin david am: have you been given any indication at all by the chief medical officer as to when , in the longer term , it might be ? kirsty williams am: no , i have not been given a date . what i have done today is publish the principles that will aid me in , as you said , me making a decision . so , clearly , we will be relying on the advice of our medical and scientific advisers , but the principles are very clear . firstly , we will need to consider any decision to have more children returning to school in the context of the safety and the physical and the emotional well-being of children and young people and the staff . obviously , i ca n't make a decision regarding education in isolation . it will have to be taken in the context of the wider welsh government response to dealing with this pandemic . thirdly , it is absolutely crucial in making any decisions that we have clearly communicated that to parents and to staff , on the information that we have used to reach any decisions , to build confidence for parents and professionals , but also to give them time to plan . it will be impossible to move quickly to new ways of working . and we also have to look at—and it 's been paraphrased quite a lot today—if we are looking at certain groups of children accessing more education within a school setting , which groups they should be . and , finally , how do we operationalise that ? how do we make those settings as safe as they possibly can be , and how do we tackle some of the difficult challenges of everything from ensuring that we have adequate numbers of workforce available , to the very real questions about how you would do social distancing in the context of education , school transport issues , how you would avoid people gathering at the school gate , for instance ? so , there are very practical issues that would need to be considered and thought through very , very carefully before we could return , before what we could see is a move from where we are now to the next phase of education , and new approaches to what schooling may look like . but , again , i must be absolutely clear to you , members of the committee , and to people watching : it is not feasible , in this sense , that we would move from where we are now to what all of us would regard as normal education and what the operation of schools looked like before the start of this pandemic . hefin david am: so , what is clear from what you 've said is that it 's going to be phased return . i would assume that would be the most vulnerable—perhaps additional learning needs pupils would return first . just reading some of the things that you 've said today , can you answer that question ? and can i also ask : you said that guiding principle no . 3 will be having the confidence of parents , staff and students , based on evidence and information , so they can plan ahead . what will that evidence and information be , and how will you know that you 've got the confidence of parents to return ? kirsty williams am: well , as i said , primarily , we will need to take a lead from our scientific and medical advisers . i want to also say that we are obviously working on a four-nation basis and keeping in very close contact with my counterparts in northern ireland , scotland and england . but we 're also looking beyond the united kingdom to approaches to education in the face of this pandemic . members are aware that we as a nation are a member of the atlantic rim collaboratory . so , recently i was able to talk to educationalists and ministers in iceland , other parts of europe , north america , south america and australia . so , we 're also looking at best international evidence in this regard . and , clearly , we will need to be very clear , as today is an attempt to be very clear with parents and our teaching professionals , and the unions that represent them , about the basis of that evidence . hefin david am: and could i just ask , with regard to the principles , do they then apply to further education and universities ? kirsty williams am: well , of course , when we are discussing these challenges , we are doing that with our colleagues in both the school sector but also our colleagues in the fe sector , and we 're in close contact with colleagues in higher education to share thinking on these matters . hefin david am: but these principles do n't apply in those circumstances ; these are principles for schools only . kirsty williams am: these principles are applying to both , and our work in this area is applying to both schools and fe colleges . clearly , universities , as independent institutions , we would n't be able to dictate to . but i want to be absolutely clear : we are working with representatives of the he sector to include them in this work . and i have received , not assurances , but from discussions that i 've had with universities wales and vice-chancellors , they are very keen to be kept apprised of these approaches , because they may well wish to implement something similar within their own institutions . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got a couple of supplementaries now ; firstly , from suzy davies , and then i 'm going to go to siân gwenllian . suzy . no , we ca n't hear suzy . suzy ? no . i 'll go to siân , then , and then i 'll come back to suzy . siân . hefin david am: chair , i do n't think my microphone is muted . sian gwenllian am: okay . i 'll move on to my question to kirsty williams . now , it is clear that any decisions that need to be taken on reopening schools would have to be made in the context of all of the other issues that the welsh government has to take into account . and it is entirely clear that the approach of government towards testing has n't been sufficiently developed for us to even start to think about removing restrictions . so , would n't it be dangerous , if truth be told , to start to discuss reopening schools when we have n't had the necessary testing in place for the majority of the population ? and does n't it convey a mixed message that we 're starting to relax some of these restrictions when , in reality , the restrictions are still in place and still need to be in place robustly ? kirsty williams am: first of all , thank you very much , siân , for that important question . can i be absolutely clear , and i thought i had been pretty clear in answering hefin david , that we are not relaxing any of the restrictions with regard to education ? as i said to hefin , it is not imminent that we would see a further phase in the next stage of education here in wales . what i have done today is to provide clarity on the nature of the principles that i would use when coming to any discussion . it is the responsibility of me , as the minister , and indeed of the wider government , to begin to think about planning for the future . but i have been absolutely clear : we are not moving to an imminent change in how education is operating at the moment . and i 'm also very , very clear that should we be given the opportunity to see more children in our schools , i will only do that when it is safe for me to do so , when i 've been advised by the cmo that i am able to do that , and we have given sufficient time and planning to the sector to respond . it is not going to be easy , and we will need to give them , as a sector , time to be able to address . but if i have not been clear enough , let me say it again : we are not relaxing any issues around schools at present , nor is that imminent . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , i think we can try going to you again now . suzy davies am: thank you . minister , in your consideration of introducing a phased return to school , in due course , have you taken into consideration how things like school absences are going to be managed ? because , regardless of the amount of good work you do on messaging , there will still be some families that do n't realise that going back to school is for their particular family . will there be a relaxation of , effectively , what we would call truancy rules ? or is that something that schools will be getting guidance on much up-front ? kirsty williams am: thank you , suzy . as i said in my statement earlier today , returning to school will not be a return to normal , and in recognition of this , i 've already made it clear that i will seek , in all opportunities , to reduce the burdens on school . that includes various data collection , the suspension of performance measures and removing the requirement to undertake literacy and numeracy testing , and , clearly , school attendance will want to be an important factor of that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . i 'm keen to go on now to talk about the current situation as being faced by our children and young people in schools with some questions from siân gwenllian . siân . sian gwenllian am: since yesterday , the welsh government has started publishing data on the number of schools that are open , the number of children attending those schools , and the number of staff involved , and they have been making this information available as per capita of the population . on average , i think it 's 1 per cent of the children of wales that actually attend these locations , and some 5 per cent of the staff . so , can you analyse those figures a little further ? can you tell us how many children , according to this data , are children of key workers , and how many are vulnerable children ? kirsty williams am: thank you very much , siân . as you quite rightly say , on average , we have 518 school hubs open each day , with up to 4,200 children attending . we have seen an increase in the number of attendances since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term . we have approximately 5.6 per cent of the teaching population working in those hubs , and at present , 85 per cent of the children who are attending are the children of key workers , the remainder being vulnerable children . so , we are now averaging 600 vulnerable children per day . these are small numbers , but we have seen an increase in those numbers since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term . sian gwenllian am: okay . i 'm sure we 'll return to that point a little later on . how much confidence do you therefore have that the arrangements are effective in terms of the safety of staff and children at these locations ? kirsty williams am: thank you once again for that . the smooth operation of the hubs , with regard to health and safety , is , of course , of paramount importance . what we have seen since schools closed for traditional statutory purposes and moving to their repurposed function—we have seen a change of pattern over time . so , following my announcement on , i believe , 18 march , the week after , we saw a large number of settings open and operating . as local authorities have been able to understand the demand for those places—from critical workers and vulnerable children—we have seen more local authorities move to a hub model , and we have been able to publish guidance to local authorities on how issues around safe working in those hubs should be followed , and we 've been able to give guidance in that regard . local authorities are asked by us to report any incidents where they are concerned about operation issues on the ground . sian gwenllian am: as i mentioned earlier , testing is crucially important in dealing with this crisis . so , how many school staff have been tested for covid because they may have experienced symptoms and so on ? and how many of those have tested positive ? kirsty williams am: my understanding from public health wales is that 15 teachers have been tested for covid-19 , and i believe two of those results have come back as positive . can i make it absolutely clear , the week before last , welsh government issued new guidance around who should be tested ? i want to make it absolutely clear to those professionals working in our hubs , if they or a member of their family are exhibiting any of the symptoms , however mild , of covid-19 , they can and they should be tested . sian gwenllian am: okay . and the final question from me on this : how important is testing going to be in this next phase , as you start to think about relaxing restrictions ? kirsty williams am: obviously , the ability to be able to test , to trace and to quarantine will be critical to the next phase and will be a very , very important and significant building block in all aspects of the government 's work to respond to this pandemic . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you , minister , and thank you , siân . we 've got some questions now on the impact on particular groups of children , from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . just following on from your answer to siân gwenllian earlier about the number of vulnerable children in school , what 's being done specifically to facilitate more of those children coming into a school setting or hub at the moment ? i 'm thinking about the 600 you 've talked about , and i know , in one of my local authority areas of merthyr , which is a very small authority , we 're talking about the number of children identified as vulnerable running into thousands , not hundreds , and that 's just in one authority . so , this is a particularly difficult issue to address , i appreciate , but how are we going to get more of these children into the hubs ? kirsty williams am: okay , dawn . the first thing to say is that the issue of vulnerable children attending settings is one that is a challenge to not just wales , but also to my colleagues in northern ireland , scotland and england . i 'm pleased to say that we are working across government departments—myself , obviously , and colleagues in education—with colleagues in social services to have a cross-government approach to these issues . i think the first thing to say is that these are complex messages , because the overriding public health message from our government has been to stay at home and children should be kept at home as much as possible , and to make sure that our hubs run smoothly , safely and effectively , we do need to limit the number of children who are attending those hubs . so , firstly , the fact that numbers are small is in some ways a success of our public health messages , because parents have been heeding those messages , but , of course , all of us will have concerns for some children who remain at home . so , i 'm pleased to say that we have seen a doubling in the last week of the number of children . so , although numbers are small , they have doubled over the course of the last week . we 're working with local authorities and they have assured us that children and young people with a social worker have been risk assessed on a multi-agency basis and are receiving support in a number of ways , and that includes having conversations about some of those children attending the hubs . they 're also looking to support in other ways . of course , some of our children who would be classed as vulnerable—and our definition of 'vulnerable ' is one that is shared between the systems in england and wales—could be children with a statement of special educational needs . for some of those children who , perhaps , have very intense health needs , actually , staying at home is the appropriate thing for that child and that family to do , and we 're looking to support families , and local authorities and local education systems are looking to support families , in a number of ways . we also know that just because you do n't have a social worker or a statement of special educational needs does not mean that a child may not be vulnerable , and schools are very aware of the needs of those children and have been carrying out regular telephone check-ins where they can—if the age of the child is appropriate—just to keep in touch with those families and those individual children . but we will continue to work across government to encourage , where it is appropriate , children to attend settings , and , if it is not appropriate for children to be in a setting , that there is contact with those children and young people to ensure that they remain , and their families remain , supported . dawn bowden am: thank you , minister . it 's encouraging to hear you talk about the ongoing safeguarding of children that are at home and i assume , within that , appropriate referral mechanisms are still in place if teachers or anybody has any particular concern about a child . similarly , with special educational needs , whereas some of those children benefit clearly from a one-to-one provision in a school , and they may not respond as well to remote working , or remote contact , with an sen advisor , are you considering in any way any relaxation of the lockdown rule in particular for those children in terms of them being able to access the support that they need for their particular educational needs ? kirsty williams am: well , first of all , dawn , you 're absolutely right : my expectation is that schools should remain in contact with children and continue to identify vulnerable children , and schools should continue to refer children to children 's services if they have any concerns , and that would also , of course , be the case for youth workers who may be keeping in contact with children . so , there is a professional expectation on all those that are working with our children and young people that , despite the circumstances they find themselves in , they should continue to report and refer cases if they see anything or hear or are told anything that makes them concerned about a child 's welfare and safety . with regard to children with additional learning needs , i am aware that that can present a number of challenges to families and children , and perhaps steve davies could give some further details . we have been keen to work with local authorities to ensure specialist provision , where that is appropriate—so , if i could give you an example of my own local authority in powys , they have two specialist centres available for children with more profound additional learning needs , and those centres are available—recognising , however , that , even with the provision of specialist hubs , it can be a challenge for some children with additional learning needs to find themselves outside of a routine . hubs are often staffed on a rota basis and therefore children could be faced with staff that they are unfamiliar with . so , even when local authorities—and the vast , vast majority of them do—have specialist services in place , sometimes that might not be the best thing for a child 's health and well-being . but perhaps steve can give us further details of the conversations that have been taking place with directors of education to ensure that children with additional learning needs have access to the hubs and specialist support . steve . steve davies: yes , myself and colleague albert heaney—colleague-director—have been in regular touch with directors of education and directors of social services to make sure that these children and young people 's needs are catered for . we are very aware of all of the special schools—profound and multiple learning difficulties , ebd schools and pupil referral units—that have been kept open in their own way , but also , in some cases , as hubs , to deliver those services for those children 's needs , and we 're pleased that the directors and the local authorities have responded so constructively . so , we have the details of every school that 's open , the pupils who are attending , and we are clear that the risk assessments that the minister referred to for children with special needs , as well as wider vulnerable groups—they are having risk assessments to make sure that , where there is a need identified for a pupil that is not currently attending a hub , then the local authority can be working with that child and with the parents . lynne neagle am: thank you , steve . dawn . dawn bowden am: thank you . just two more questions . one is around emotional and mental health difficulties being experienced by children and young people at the moment . now , there was a very welcome announcement of £1.25 million pounds for school counselling . how is that , in practical terms , being applied if those children are not actually in school ? kirsty williams am: you 're right , dawn : we have to consider how we can support children not only in their learning during this time , but also to recognise the very real impact that the pandemic will have on all of our mental health and well-being—recognising , of course , it is absolutely natural for all of us , including children and young people , to have fears and anxieties at this time . that 's a natural reaction to the situation that we find ourselves in . but , of course , there are issues around those children that would have currently been receiving school counselling , and also being able to be in a position to respond to a potential growth in the number of children that are receiving support . so , the additional money will be made available to local authorities to be able to increase and ramp up services to support children and families . in the immediacy , of course , that will have to be done in different ways than perhaps we 've traditionally delivered services in the past , because of social distancing and lockdown rules , but we want to get some of these systems in place now , rather than waiting for everything to go back to normal . we need to be able to plan to offer services in the here and now , but also be able to plan for what potentially could be an increase in the demand of those services . so , we 've been in close touch with local authorities , asking them what they believe that they will need and how they can use additional financial resources , and we 've been very pleased to be able to secure that for them . dawn bowden am: so , that would include things like telephone and video support as well , i guess , then . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . so , that would include remote counselling as in a fashion that we 're doing now , but also , as and when some of the restrictions are perhaps removed , looking at an enhanced family therapy , or a therapy approach . so , when we talk about counselling , i think it 's important to recognise that there will be some flexibility around this money and it does not necessarily mean that local authorities have to use it on a one-to-one basis . that might not be appropriate for some children , especially our younger children and their families , and they can use that money to provide counselling or therapy—in the widest possible terms—that is the best method to support individual children and their families . but , clearly , we 're having to do that in the confines of lockdown and social distancing at the moment . some of that money can also be used to support the professional learning and the professional development of counsellors , because , of course , they may be being asked to work in a different way and we need to make sure that they have the appropriate skills and abilities to do that . dawn bowden am: thank you . thank you , minister . lynne neagle am: dawn , before you ask your final question , i 've got a couple of supplementaries—firstly from suzy , and then from hefin . suzy davies am: oh , thank you . my question goes back to the comment you made earlier , minister , about the number of children doubling—sorry , vulnerable children doubling—after the easter break , if we can call it that . so , what i 'm after is a sense of churn in these establishments . so , was that figure a recovery of a number of children that had been there before the easter break , and are the people who are there still the same people as were there right at the beginning of the crisis and the lockdown ? kirsty williams am: suzy , what i believe that we 're seeing in our schools is new pupils coming into school . so , there has been , i know , a real effort on behalf of educationalists and social services staff to really reach out to families and to make sure that they 're aware of the support that is available out there for them and their children , and to be able to give them the confidence that there are—that the hubs are available for them . so , we have seen an increase in children . those numbers are still small and , i believe , potentially , there is an opportunity to build on that and to have further conversations with families about the support that is available for vulnerable children , whether that— . that vulnerability , of course , can cover a whole range of issues . as i said when we last met , this is a constantly evolving situation . the initial response—local authorities and schools worked incredibly fast and incredibly quickly to set up these hubs . we 've seen an evolution in the weeks since that time and i am sure that we will continue to see some evolution in approaches . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin , you had a supplementary—briefly , please . hefin david am: yes , very quickly . i 've been listening to the answers with regard to vulnerable children , following on from that answer . i 'm at home with a vulnerable child—a child who has got additional learning needs . she 's got autism ; she 's four . i imagine there are many , many parents in exactly the same position—i 've heard from them . i have n't heard anything from the school or from the local authority . should i have heard something or should i be proactive in pursuing it ? kirsty williams am: i do n't want to comment on personal cases— hefin david am: but there are many others in this position . kirsty williams am: —but what i would say is that if parents have concerns and want to have a conversation about what support is available to them and their children , they should contact their local education authority to have a conversation as to what support is available . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . dawn , final question , please . dawn bowden am: yes , my last question is really about the potential for the attainment gap between disadvantaged pupils and their more affluent peers . is that a concern for you ? i 'm thinking particularly in relation to those less affluent families in having access to technology and so on . what kind of concerns do you have about that and what are we looking to do to try to ensure that that does n't actually play out ? kirsty williams am: thank you , dawn . all of the statistics would tell us that learning loss and the gap , potentially , will affect those more vulnerable children the most . clearly , we will want to consider that as we think about what the new normal for education may look like , or as we develop into future phases . depending on where that child is in their educational journey , of course , the needs and the potential for loss are slightly different . so , for instance , when we 're thinking about very young children , we could be thinking about a lack of social interaction and the development of oracy skills . of course , that , potentially , then will have a knock-on to their ability to learn to read and then to write , for instance . for other children who are , perhaps , older and heading towards formal examinations , the challenge when they return to school will be a slightly different one . i 'm not sure , chair , whether you want me to give some further details about our continuity-of-learning plan and how we are looking to address digital disadvantage now , or whether there are questions later . lynne neagle am: well , i 've got a question on that coming up , so , if it 's okay , dawn , we 'll go on to that now . before we do that , i was just going to ask how the welsh government is paying due regard to the united nations convention on the rights of the child and , obviously , the right children and young people have to an education . i was going to ask you about the risk of inequality due to varying access to digital resources , which are so important in ensuring continuity of learning . kirsty williams am: you 're absolutely correct , chair . officials are very aware of our responsibilities towards children 's rights in this regard and we are doing whatever we can to ensure that children have an equal opportunity and have equal access to learning at this time . we are fortunate in the regard that , because of previous decisions and investments , we have a strong base on which to build because we have our hwb digital learning platform and because we have invested heavily in the national purchasing of microsoft office and google for education tools , which are available to all families . we have become the first , i think—we 're certainly the first in the uk , and i 'm not sure whether we 're the first across the world , but i think we probably are—to deploy , for instance , adobe spark nationally . but , obviously , access to hardware and connectivity is crucial at this time . officials are working with local authorities to ensure that all children have access to both the hardware and the connectivity they need to be able to participate in digital learning at this particular time . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . just a final question from me : how exactly are we communicating to parents what the expectations are of them in terms of delivering this education at home now ? are there , for example , guidelines on recommended hours of home learning per day of the week or volume of work to be completed ? how are we ensuring that parents know how best to lead their children through this at the moment ? kirsty williams am: firstly , can i recognise what a challenge this is ? we 've just heard from hefin who is carrying on his day job as the assembly member , but is obviously trying to do that as well as care for and provide learning for his children , and i know , chair , that you 're doing the same , and i 'm certainly trying to do the same , and it 's a real challenge , it 's not easy . as part of our 'stay safe . stay learning ' policy statement , advice is available to parents and carers on the hwb platform as to what they best can do to support their children . i think the really important message that i 've been trying to give to parents is not to be too hard on ourselves . i know that everybody is doing the best that they can in really challenging circumstances . and if they have concerns , they should be in contact with their child 's school , but we do have specific advice and guidance to parents on the hwb platform . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 're going to move on now to some questions on examinations from janet finch-saunders . janet , we ca n't hear you . i tell you what , we'll— . janet , do you want to try again ? no . okay , we 'll go on then to questions on higher education and post 16 , and we 'll come back to examinations , if that 's okay . suzy . suzy davies am: yes , thank you , chair . before we leave continuity of learning , do you mind if i just ask this one question ? lynne neagle am: no , that 's fine . yes , go on . suzy davies am: your comment , minister , on working with local authorities to make sure that individuals have hardware : can you just give us a bit of detail on what working with local authorities actually means ? in the process of that , is there any data gathering going on for those pupils who are being educated at home and the levels at which they 're engaging ? you know , are they sticking with it , or how many are dropping out ? because i think the two of those perhaps go together . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . so , i 'm hoping to make an announcement tomorrow , if not later on this week , about some specific details around support for hardware and connectivity . we 're working closely with local authorities to understand just that : to understand from the schools the number of schools that—and a number of them have already done this—have been lending chromebooks , ipads and laptops to children , and also identifying children who are not perhaps engaging in the activities that have been made available . and we 'll be doing two things to support local authorities . the first is to use the stock of equipment that they already have to be able to provide hardware to students . so , we have purchased on a national basis software that , when applied to an old piece of kit , essentially turns it into an out-of-the-box chromebook . because , as you can imagine , just like other things during a pandemic , there has been a rush to buy new stuff on the market and then there is a scramble and nobody can get what they need . so , we 're utilisng kit that is already available in schools and local authorities , and we will look to backfill that to schools at a later point out of our edtech investment programme . the other issue is , once a child has a chromebook or a laptop or a device , issues around connectivity . so , we 're also looking to purchase on a national level and distribute mi-fi connectivity , so students will be able to have access to wi-fi where they do n't have that already . that 's why we need to work closely with local authorities and schools to identify the level of that need and to make sure the stuff gets to the right children . one of the ways in which we are able to do that is to look at engagement in education . so , if a child has n't been engaging , is that because they just do n't want to and they 're voting with their feet—but clearly teachers need to have a conversation about that—or is that because the child simply does not have the ability to do that , and therefore we need to get that stuff out to those children ? so , rather than just simply leaving it to local authorities to scramble around in a very crowded market to get the stuff that they will need , we 're trying to do that on a national basis and deploy that to local authorities . so , our officials have been having conversations with each of our local authorities to ascertain what 's already happened , and there is very good practice out there—schools have been proactive—but where there are gaps , what can we do as a national government to be able to assist them to do that ? we are repurposing some of the resources that we had previously identified for our edtech investment , using those resources to fill this particular gap . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 're going to go back to janet now . i believe we 've got sound again , so janet can ask her questions on examinations . janet . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . i thought it was something at this end ; i 'm glad to hear it was n't . when will vocational learners know what is happening with their assessments , and how will those who have no choice but to wait for a vocational assessment be supported ? kirsty williams am: okay . that 's a very good question , janet , because i know that there has been some concern and anxiety around vocational qualification students and how quickly we 've been able to provide certainty for them . you 'll be aware that qualifications wales have been able , in the last week , to be able to give that greater clarity . so , they have announced that learners due to complete their essential skills wales qualifications will receive results . they have also published their approach to how health and social care qualifications will be managed , because , of course , those are part of the first set of reformed quals that we have done on a wales basis . you are right , there are a group of students who fall into the category where there are technical qualifications that require a certificate of competency to be industry ready—i hope i 've explained that correctly—and , therefore , we are working to understand how we can accommodate those students in these particular circumstances . but , at this stage , there may be some delay for that element of their qualification being delayed to a further date . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: yes . what are your expectations for how a-level and gcse qualifications will be awarded this summer , following the ministerial direction that you have issued to qualifications wales ? for example , how is an appropriate balance being taken between recognising the progress of pupils in their coursework , mock examinations , and other work to date , and also , the potential of pupils who might have performed particularly well in their examinations this summer ? kirsty williams am: well , janet , i understand—and today is a day where some students would have been undertaking practical examinations—i understand how devastating it has been to both students and teachers alike for the decision i had to take to cancel this summer 's exam series . but i 'm absolutely clear that was the only decision that could have been reached . qualifications wales has made it very clear—and for people who would like more information , i would urge them to look at qualifications wales 's website—how they will go about giving , allocating , and awarding a grade to our a-level and gcse students . firstly , teachers will be asked to submit a grade they believe that student would have obtained , should they have taken an exam . and , of course , teachers will have a range of data and their own professional judgment that they will use in awarding that grade . teachers will also be asked to rank students in order . once that information has been submitted to qualifications wales , there will be a process by which that data will be moderated ; moderated from centre to centre and across the nation , thus giving us the chance to award a student a fair grade whilst being , and remaining , true to ensuring that we have a robust qualifications system , and allowing those students who find themselves at a critical stage of their education , where they are looking to move on to the next stages—that they will have the grades that will allow them to make decisions about their future . janet finch-saunders am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you , janet . we 're going to go on now , then , to the questions on higher and further education from suzy davies . suzy . suzy davies am: thank you , chair . i suppose my first question just goes back to the 16-year-olds at the moment and those who are looking forward to either going to college , the older ones going to university , there 'll be apprenticeships , all kinds of future pathways for post 16. what 's happening at school level , or even at college level , to get those students ready for the next steps , because , obviously , they 're not in their usual environments and getting their usual programme of teaching ? kirsty williams am: no , that 's quite right , suzy , and i should have said in answer to janet 's question , as well—i 'm sure people already know , but just to get the point across—that a-level results day and gcse day will run as normal across not just wales , but england , wales and northern ireland , which is really important . you 're right , suzy—for those people that are coming to the end of one part of their education this is a particularly challenging time . you 'll be aware that , last week , on hwb , we were able to launch a programme for year 13 students to help them get ready for university . i 'm very grateful to the he sector in wales , who 've worked really hard with us on that . so , for instance , if you were a year 13 student or even a year 12 student that was thinking about or interested in areas around social policy , you could have tuned into a social policy lecturer at swansea university . if you go to the hwb website , you will be able to see that there are subject listings , everything from animal science through to law , politics , history and science , with links through to higher education and further education courses that students can avail themselves of . there 's also a section on preparation for essential study skills , whether that is report writing or academic writing . so , there is a range of activities and courses available for year 13 , so that children—'children ' ; they 're all children to me—young people can get themselves— . they do n't have to stop learning , and they can get themselves ready for the next stage of their education . again , for those children , perhaps , who are coming to the end of their gcses , there is a range of information , either within their own schools or within their local colleges about things that can keep them learning . so , for instance , i 'm aware of one school where you can go onto the website and there are recommendations of , for instance , what you could be reading over the summer if you 're interested in doing this particular a-level in september . i know that there are also moves in schools and in colleges to be able to make sure that those children do n't miss out on really important careers advice at this time , as well , and information , so they can make informed decisions . i know that people are working hard to link up children to advice services that are available so that they can make those really important future decisions with the advice of either a teacher or other professional so that they 've got those options . so , there is material out there and it 's growing all the time . this week , we were able to launch our virtual seren network . you 'll be aware that , for the last couple of years , we 've been able to send welsh children to the yale global summer school . clearly , that ca n't happen this year . that 's devastating for those year 12s who had worked so hard and had won a place on that programme . they will now be able to attend the yale global scholars programme virtually and remotely , because yale have moved that programme online . so , we 're developing materials and resources all of the time . suzy davies am: thank you for that answer . before i move on to my next question , can you give me some sort of sense of how that hwb domain is being populated ? where is all this information being sourced from ? presumably , they 'll be working with partners , but what does that look like ? kirsty williams am: oh , my goodness . yes , absolutely— suzy davies am: [ inaudible . ] kirsty williams am: yes , we 're working very hard . so , everything from our work with the bbc , for instance , and bbc bitesize through to our fe colleges and our he institutions , as well as other organisations in the third sector who are looking to provide those opportunities . can i just say that , last week , we were looking at , every day , in the region of well over 150,000 logins a day into hwb ? suzy davies am: well , that 's great . so there 's proactive populating of hwb . that 's what i was after . that 's great . just going back to some of janet 's questions and the assessed grades , i want to talk to you about the unconditional offers and where we are with that at the moment for entry to universities , because there 's going to be a scramble now of the available students for further education , but primarily higher education institutions , across the uk . is the moratorium on unconditional offers still standing ? are there conversations going on to extend that moratorium ? otherwise , this scramble is going to potentially negatively affect our universities quite considerably . kirsty williams am: yes , you 'll be aware that a moratorium does exist . it exists in this current context to 1 may . we continue to keep in close touch with colleagues in northern ireland , scotland and in the westminster government around these issues . officials are also in touch with ucas , and in the last couple of days i 've had at least three meetings with representatives of the welsh higher education sector to discuss these matters . suzy davies am: i just want to ask you now about students and their maintenance loan grants . i think they 're getting , around now , the money going into their bank account that they would normally have expected at this time of year . that 's right , yes ? kirsty williams am: that 's correct , yes . suzy davies am: what 's happening to those students who would normally be living in digs somewhere but are now living at home ? are they likely to be asked to reimburse part of the cost , because obviously it 's not as expensive to live at home as away , and what 's likely to be happening with the maintenance loans over the summer holiday period , potentially ? because we 've had a period now where students ca n't top up their maintenance loans by going out and working on weekends or working in the evenings , or whatever , so their income has been impacted . just in the round , what kind of conversations are happening around that ? again , it 's probably a four-nation approach , i would imagine . kirsty williams am: thank you , suzy . you are correct to say that our student support regime does allow for a lower payment to be made to those students that stay at home during their studies , but i want to reassure students that there will be no change to their student support payments just because they have left their universities and have decided to go home . there should be no change . also , we are continuing , it should be important to say , to pay education maintenance allowance at this time for our fe students that are eligible for that , even though , obviously , for ema there is an attendance requirement , but clearly that is not appropriate to enforce at the moment . you are correct—this is a worrying time for many students in higher education , especially for those who are looking to graduate at this time and are going out into an economy that has been tremendously badly hit by the pandemic . at this time , we continue to have conversations with nus wales about what can be done within a welsh context , but , as you quite rightly say , also within a uk context , to support students who may have been affected . we are continuing—on our webpage we have a frequently asked questions section that advises students in the first instance , especially when it comes , for instance , to the cost of accommodation—to have those discussions , and i 'm very grateful that , in some cases , some of our institutions have been able to waive or partially waive accommodation fees where students have vacated their accommodation and have returned to their usual home address . but we will continue to have dialogue with nus wales and with our counterparts across the country to look to see what more we can do to support students at this time . suzy davies am: thank you for that answer , and , yes , i was pleased to see that announcement through the nus as well , so well done to those accommodation providers who have a heart . i think we 'll all have seen the universities uk document that explains some of the difficulties that they 're going to be running into if this proceeds much further . my understanding is that the main emphasis at the moment is to try and get all the universities across the uk through this initial period of difficulty by releasing as much money as possible . i can see that your figure to the higher education funding council for wales was a little bit down on last year 's letter—not that there 's been a remit letter yet , but an indication . are you releasing that money earlier so that they can use it more swiftly , or does that not matter ? lynne neagle am: before you come in , minister , that is going to have to be the last question , just to make you aware of that , because we are coming up to the end of our time . suzy davies am: okay . that 's fine . kirsty williams am: of course , suzy , we are working closely with universities wales and have a lot of sympathy for the proposals that have come forward from universities uk , which wales 's universities have been a part of forming . stability in the first instance is really important to us , which is why we 've been able to give an indication to hefcw about resources that are available , and we 've been very clear to hefcw that we want to be as flexible as possible in how they use those resources to support institutions . that potentially would mean reprofiling the way in which money gets out to institutions , but clearly we will need to have an ongoing discussion about how we respond to the immediacy of the issues facing he , how we can get stability for the next academic year , and how we then can support the sector through what is a really challenging time for them . we will do that in a welsh context and we will continue to do that also in a uk context , because you will have seen the scale of some of the figures that have been talked about in terms of the impact on the he sector at this time . clearly , a four-nation approach to that will be crucial . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . well , we have come to the end of our time , and , as to anything that we did n't ask , we will have to write to the minister . can i just thank the minister and her officials for your attendance today ? we know how busy you are dealing with the pandemic and we very much welcome this opportunity to have this discussion with you . so , thank you , minister and officials for your time . as usual , you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . diolch yn fawr . kirsty williams am: diolch yn fawr , chair . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then . can i propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? okay . i see that members are content , so we will now proceed to meet in private .

the meeting with the welsh government is mainly about the impact of the coronavirus epidemic on education in wales . to start with , kirsty williams am indicated that still there was not an exact date schools might reopen . students could only return to school in the safe environment , which required the lead from scientific and medical advisers . meanwhile , kirsty williams am emphasized that the government would not relax any of the restrictions with regard to education and new measuring methods would be applied concerning performance rate , etc . it was suggested that there was an increase in the number of attendances to the open hubs and the ability to test , to trace and to quarantine would be critical to the next phase . moreover , the meeting agreed that schools should remain in contact with children in need and continue to identify vulnerable children with emotional and mental health difficulties . also , methods to assure sustainable higher education would be applied and vocational qualification students would fear none . last but not least , although the education cost for students receiving support regime would decrease , there would be no change on the allowance .

what did the meeting discuss about the school reopening date ? </s> lynne neagle am: good afternoon , everyone . welcome to the first virtual meeting of the children , young people and education committee . in accordance with standing order 34.19 , i determine that the public are excluded from the committee 's meeting , in order to protect public health . in accordance with standing order 34.21 , notice of this decision was included in the agenda for this meeting , which was published last friday . this meeting is , however , being broadcast live on senedd.tv , with all participants joining via video conference . a record of the proceedings will be published as usual . aside from the procedural adaptation relating to conducting proceedings remotely , all other standing order requirements for committees remain in place . the meeting is bilingual , and simultaneous translation from welsh to english is available . can i remind all participants that the microphones will be controlled centrally , so there 's no need to turn them on and off individually ? can i ask whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . thank you . can i just then , again , note for the record that , if , for any reason , i drop out of the meeting , the committee has agreed that dawn bowden am will temporarily chair while i try to rejoin ? item 2 , then , this afternoon is an evidence session with the welsh government on the impact of the coronavirus epidemic on education in wales . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams am , minister for education , steve davies , director of the education directorate , and huw morris , who is group director , skills , higher education and lifelong learning . can i welcome you all and thank you for attending ? minister , i understand you 'd like to make a short opening statement . kirsty williams am: thank you very much , lynne . and indeed , if i could just begin by , once again , putting on the record my gratitude to everyone who is helping us get through this pandemic . there are a vast number of people who are keeping our school hubs open , looking after vulnerable children , and the children of key workers . because of them , and their efforts , those key workers are able to carry on their critical roles in responding to covid-19 . i am extremely proud of the way that members of the school community have gone above and beyond . they have kept their schools open out of hours , over the weekends , on bank holidays , and easter . and it is really heartening and humbling to see the way that they have responded to this crisis . and there are teachers , teaching assistants , and many others , who are helping our children and their parents to keep learning at home . i know that home schooling is n't easy , so i want to say also thank you to parents and carers for their efforts at this time . by keeping their children at home , they are helping us to keep people safe , and reducing pressure on our education system , and on our nhs . be in no doubt , we are facing many challenges because of this pandemic . my primary concern is , and always will be , the health and well-being of our children , of our young people , and of all the staff in our education settings . and i am very grateful to everyone who is supporting us in these endeavours . thank you very much—diolch yn fawr . and i 'm now happy to answer questions that members of the committee may have this afternoon . lynne neagle am: thank you very much , minister . i 'm sure that the committee echoes the heartfelt thanks you have just given then . the first questions we 've got this afternoon are from hefin david . hefin david am: good afternoon , minister . with regard to your five principles , which you 've set out today , regarding when schools will reopen , they 're very clear that they require a judgment from you . so could you outline when you think that schools might reopen ? kirsty williams am: thank you , hefin . i am very clear that schools will move to a new phase—because , already , schools are open in many settings ; we will move to a new phase when it is safe to do so and when i have advice from the chief medical officer and the chief scientific officer that it is safe to do so . i have made very clear in my statement that that is not imminent . i know that in some cases there has been speculation that a return to normal could be with us quite shortly . i 'm clear that a return to normal is not imminent , and therefore i 'm not in a position to give a date as to when we will see more schools opening up to more children . hefin david am: have you been given any indication at all by the chief medical officer as to when , in the longer term , it might be ? kirsty williams am: no , i have not been given a date . what i have done today is publish the principles that will aid me in , as you said , me making a decision . so , clearly , we will be relying on the advice of our medical and scientific advisers , but the principles are very clear . firstly , we will need to consider any decision to have more children returning to school in the context of the safety and the physical and the emotional well-being of children and young people and the staff . obviously , i ca n't make a decision regarding education in isolation . it will have to be taken in the context of the wider welsh government response to dealing with this pandemic . thirdly , it is absolutely crucial in making any decisions that we have clearly communicated that to parents and to staff , on the information that we have used to reach any decisions , to build confidence for parents and professionals , but also to give them time to plan . it will be impossible to move quickly to new ways of working . and we also have to look at—and it 's been paraphrased quite a lot today—if we are looking at certain groups of children accessing more education within a school setting , which groups they should be . and , finally , how do we operationalise that ? how do we make those settings as safe as they possibly can be , and how do we tackle some of the difficult challenges of everything from ensuring that we have adequate numbers of workforce available , to the very real questions about how you would do social distancing in the context of education , school transport issues , how you would avoid people gathering at the school gate , for instance ? so , there are very practical issues that would need to be considered and thought through very , very carefully before we could return , before what we could see is a move from where we are now to the next phase of education , and new approaches to what schooling may look like . but , again , i must be absolutely clear to you , members of the committee , and to people watching : it is not feasible , in this sense , that we would move from where we are now to what all of us would regard as normal education and what the operation of schools looked like before the start of this pandemic . hefin david am: so , what is clear from what you 've said is that it 's going to be phased return . i would assume that would be the most vulnerable—perhaps additional learning needs pupils would return first . just reading some of the things that you 've said today , can you answer that question ? and can i also ask : you said that guiding principle no . 3 will be having the confidence of parents , staff and students , based on evidence and information , so they can plan ahead . what will that evidence and information be , and how will you know that you 've got the confidence of parents to return ? kirsty williams am: well , as i said , primarily , we will need to take a lead from our scientific and medical advisers . i want to also say that we are obviously working on a four-nation basis and keeping in very close contact with my counterparts in northern ireland , scotland and england . but we 're also looking beyond the united kingdom to approaches to education in the face of this pandemic . members are aware that we as a nation are a member of the atlantic rim collaboratory . so , recently i was able to talk to educationalists and ministers in iceland , other parts of europe , north america , south america and australia . so , we 're also looking at best international evidence in this regard . and , clearly , we will need to be very clear , as today is an attempt to be very clear with parents and our teaching professionals , and the unions that represent them , about the basis of that evidence . hefin david am: and could i just ask , with regard to the principles , do they then apply to further education and universities ? kirsty williams am: well , of course , when we are discussing these challenges , we are doing that with our colleagues in both the school sector but also our colleagues in the fe sector , and we 're in close contact with colleagues in higher education to share thinking on these matters . hefin david am: but these principles do n't apply in those circumstances ; these are principles for schools only . kirsty williams am: these principles are applying to both , and our work in this area is applying to both schools and fe colleges . clearly , universities , as independent institutions , we would n't be able to dictate to . but i want to be absolutely clear : we are working with representatives of the he sector to include them in this work . and i have received , not assurances , but from discussions that i 've had with universities wales and vice-chancellors , they are very keen to be kept apprised of these approaches , because they may well wish to implement something similar within their own institutions . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got a couple of supplementaries now ; firstly , from suzy davies , and then i 'm going to go to siân gwenllian . suzy . no , we ca n't hear suzy . suzy ? no . i 'll go to siân , then , and then i 'll come back to suzy . siân . hefin david am: chair , i do n't think my microphone is muted . sian gwenllian am: okay . i 'll move on to my question to kirsty williams . now , it is clear that any decisions that need to be taken on reopening schools would have to be made in the context of all of the other issues that the welsh government has to take into account . and it is entirely clear that the approach of government towards testing has n't been sufficiently developed for us to even start to think about removing restrictions . so , would n't it be dangerous , if truth be told , to start to discuss reopening schools when we have n't had the necessary testing in place for the majority of the population ? and does n't it convey a mixed message that we 're starting to relax some of these restrictions when , in reality , the restrictions are still in place and still need to be in place robustly ? kirsty williams am: first of all , thank you very much , siân , for that important question . can i be absolutely clear , and i thought i had been pretty clear in answering hefin david , that we are not relaxing any of the restrictions with regard to education ? as i said to hefin , it is not imminent that we would see a further phase in the next stage of education here in wales . what i have done today is to provide clarity on the nature of the principles that i would use when coming to any discussion . it is the responsibility of me , as the minister , and indeed of the wider government , to begin to think about planning for the future . but i have been absolutely clear : we are not moving to an imminent change in how education is operating at the moment . and i 'm also very , very clear that should we be given the opportunity to see more children in our schools , i will only do that when it is safe for me to do so , when i 've been advised by the cmo that i am able to do that , and we have given sufficient time and planning to the sector to respond . it is not going to be easy , and we will need to give them , as a sector , time to be able to address . but if i have not been clear enough , let me say it again : we are not relaxing any issues around schools at present , nor is that imminent . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , i think we can try going to you again now . suzy davies am: thank you . minister , in your consideration of introducing a phased return to school , in due course , have you taken into consideration how things like school absences are going to be managed ? because , regardless of the amount of good work you do on messaging , there will still be some families that do n't realise that going back to school is for their particular family . will there be a relaxation of , effectively , what we would call truancy rules ? or is that something that schools will be getting guidance on much up-front ? kirsty williams am: thank you , suzy . as i said in my statement earlier today , returning to school will not be a return to normal , and in recognition of this , i 've already made it clear that i will seek , in all opportunities , to reduce the burdens on school . that includes various data collection , the suspension of performance measures and removing the requirement to undertake literacy and numeracy testing , and , clearly , school attendance will want to be an important factor of that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . i 'm keen to go on now to talk about the current situation as being faced by our children and young people in schools with some questions from siân gwenllian . siân . sian gwenllian am: since yesterday , the welsh government has started publishing data on the number of schools that are open , the number of children attending those schools , and the number of staff involved , and they have been making this information available as per capita of the population . on average , i think it 's 1 per cent of the children of wales that actually attend these locations , and some 5 per cent of the staff . so , can you analyse those figures a little further ? can you tell us how many children , according to this data , are children of key workers , and how many are vulnerable children ? kirsty williams am: thank you very much , siân . as you quite rightly say , on average , we have 518 school hubs open each day , with up to 4,200 children attending . we have seen an increase in the number of attendances since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term . we have approximately 5.6 per cent of the teaching population working in those hubs , and at present , 85 per cent of the children who are attending are the children of key workers , the remainder being vulnerable children . so , we are now averaging 600 vulnerable children per day . these are small numbers , but we have seen an increase in those numbers since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term . sian gwenllian am: okay . i 'm sure we 'll return to that point a little later on . how much confidence do you therefore have that the arrangements are effective in terms of the safety of staff and children at these locations ? kirsty williams am: thank you once again for that . the smooth operation of the hubs , with regard to health and safety , is , of course , of paramount importance . what we have seen since schools closed for traditional statutory purposes and moving to their repurposed function—we have seen a change of pattern over time . so , following my announcement on , i believe , 18 march , the week after , we saw a large number of settings open and operating . as local authorities have been able to understand the demand for those places—from critical workers and vulnerable children—we have seen more local authorities move to a hub model , and we have been able to publish guidance to local authorities on how issues around safe working in those hubs should be followed , and we 've been able to give guidance in that regard . local authorities are asked by us to report any incidents where they are concerned about operation issues on the ground . sian gwenllian am: as i mentioned earlier , testing is crucially important in dealing with this crisis . so , how many school staff have been tested for covid because they may have experienced symptoms and so on ? and how many of those have tested positive ? kirsty williams am: my understanding from public health wales is that 15 teachers have been tested for covid-19 , and i believe two of those results have come back as positive . can i make it absolutely clear , the week before last , welsh government issued new guidance around who should be tested ? i want to make it absolutely clear to those professionals working in our hubs , if they or a member of their family are exhibiting any of the symptoms , however mild , of covid-19 , they can and they should be tested . sian gwenllian am: okay . and the final question from me on this : how important is testing going to be in this next phase , as you start to think about relaxing restrictions ? kirsty williams am: obviously , the ability to be able to test , to trace and to quarantine will be critical to the next phase and will be a very , very important and significant building block in all aspects of the government 's work to respond to this pandemic . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you , minister , and thank you , siân . we 've got some questions now on the impact on particular groups of children , from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . just following on from your answer to siân gwenllian earlier about the number of vulnerable children in school , what 's being done specifically to facilitate more of those children coming into a school setting or hub at the moment ? i 'm thinking about the 600 you 've talked about , and i know , in one of my local authority areas of merthyr , which is a very small authority , we 're talking about the number of children identified as vulnerable running into thousands , not hundreds , and that 's just in one authority . so , this is a particularly difficult issue to address , i appreciate , but how are we going to get more of these children into the hubs ? kirsty williams am: okay , dawn . the first thing to say is that the issue of vulnerable children attending settings is one that is a challenge to not just wales , but also to my colleagues in northern ireland , scotland and england . i 'm pleased to say that we are working across government departments—myself , obviously , and colleagues in education—with colleagues in social services to have a cross-government approach to these issues . i think the first thing to say is that these are complex messages , because the overriding public health message from our government has been to stay at home and children should be kept at home as much as possible , and to make sure that our hubs run smoothly , safely and effectively , we do need to limit the number of children who are attending those hubs . so , firstly , the fact that numbers are small is in some ways a success of our public health messages , because parents have been heeding those messages , but , of course , all of us will have concerns for some children who remain at home . so , i 'm pleased to say that we have seen a doubling in the last week of the number of children . so , although numbers are small , they have doubled over the course of the last week . we 're working with local authorities and they have assured us that children and young people with a social worker have been risk assessed on a multi-agency basis and are receiving support in a number of ways , and that includes having conversations about some of those children attending the hubs . they 're also looking to support in other ways . of course , some of our children who would be classed as vulnerable—and our definition of 'vulnerable ' is one that is shared between the systems in england and wales—could be children with a statement of special educational needs . for some of those children who , perhaps , have very intense health needs , actually , staying at home is the appropriate thing for that child and that family to do , and we 're looking to support families , and local authorities and local education systems are looking to support families , in a number of ways . we also know that just because you do n't have a social worker or a statement of special educational needs does not mean that a child may not be vulnerable , and schools are very aware of the needs of those children and have been carrying out regular telephone check-ins where they can—if the age of the child is appropriate—just to keep in touch with those families and those individual children . but we will continue to work across government to encourage , where it is appropriate , children to attend settings , and , if it is not appropriate for children to be in a setting , that there is contact with those children and young people to ensure that they remain , and their families remain , supported . dawn bowden am: thank you , minister . it 's encouraging to hear you talk about the ongoing safeguarding of children that are at home and i assume , within that , appropriate referral mechanisms are still in place if teachers or anybody has any particular concern about a child . similarly , with special educational needs , whereas some of those children benefit clearly from a one-to-one provision in a school , and they may not respond as well to remote working , or remote contact , with an sen advisor , are you considering in any way any relaxation of the lockdown rule in particular for those children in terms of them being able to access the support that they need for their particular educational needs ? kirsty williams am: well , first of all , dawn , you 're absolutely right : my expectation is that schools should remain in contact with children and continue to identify vulnerable children , and schools should continue to refer children to children 's services if they have any concerns , and that would also , of course , be the case for youth workers who may be keeping in contact with children . so , there is a professional expectation on all those that are working with our children and young people that , despite the circumstances they find themselves in , they should continue to report and refer cases if they see anything or hear or are told anything that makes them concerned about a child 's welfare and safety . with regard to children with additional learning needs , i am aware that that can present a number of challenges to families and children , and perhaps steve davies could give some further details . we have been keen to work with local authorities to ensure specialist provision , where that is appropriate—so , if i could give you an example of my own local authority in powys , they have two specialist centres available for children with more profound additional learning needs , and those centres are available—recognising , however , that , even with the provision of specialist hubs , it can be a challenge for some children with additional learning needs to find themselves outside of a routine . hubs are often staffed on a rota basis and therefore children could be faced with staff that they are unfamiliar with . so , even when local authorities—and the vast , vast majority of them do—have specialist services in place , sometimes that might not be the best thing for a child 's health and well-being . but perhaps steve can give us further details of the conversations that have been taking place with directors of education to ensure that children with additional learning needs have access to the hubs and specialist support . steve . steve davies: yes , myself and colleague albert heaney—colleague-director—have been in regular touch with directors of education and directors of social services to make sure that these children and young people 's needs are catered for . we are very aware of all of the special schools—profound and multiple learning difficulties , ebd schools and pupil referral units—that have been kept open in their own way , but also , in some cases , as hubs , to deliver those services for those children 's needs , and we 're pleased that the directors and the local authorities have responded so constructively . so , we have the details of every school that 's open , the pupils who are attending , and we are clear that the risk assessments that the minister referred to for children with special needs , as well as wider vulnerable groups—they are having risk assessments to make sure that , where there is a need identified for a pupil that is not currently attending a hub , then the local authority can be working with that child and with the parents . lynne neagle am: thank you , steve . dawn . dawn bowden am: thank you . just two more questions . one is around emotional and mental health difficulties being experienced by children and young people at the moment . now , there was a very welcome announcement of £1.25 million pounds for school counselling . how is that , in practical terms , being applied if those children are not actually in school ? kirsty williams am: you 're right , dawn : we have to consider how we can support children not only in their learning during this time , but also to recognise the very real impact that the pandemic will have on all of our mental health and well-being—recognising , of course , it is absolutely natural for all of us , including children and young people , to have fears and anxieties at this time . that 's a natural reaction to the situation that we find ourselves in . but , of course , there are issues around those children that would have currently been receiving school counselling , and also being able to be in a position to respond to a potential growth in the number of children that are receiving support . so , the additional money will be made available to local authorities to be able to increase and ramp up services to support children and families . in the immediacy , of course , that will have to be done in different ways than perhaps we 've traditionally delivered services in the past , because of social distancing and lockdown rules , but we want to get some of these systems in place now , rather than waiting for everything to go back to normal . we need to be able to plan to offer services in the here and now , but also be able to plan for what potentially could be an increase in the demand of those services . so , we 've been in close touch with local authorities , asking them what they believe that they will need and how they can use additional financial resources , and we 've been very pleased to be able to secure that for them . dawn bowden am: so , that would include things like telephone and video support as well , i guess , then . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . so , that would include remote counselling as in a fashion that we 're doing now , but also , as and when some of the restrictions are perhaps removed , looking at an enhanced family therapy , or a therapy approach . so , when we talk about counselling , i think it 's important to recognise that there will be some flexibility around this money and it does not necessarily mean that local authorities have to use it on a one-to-one basis . that might not be appropriate for some children , especially our younger children and their families , and they can use that money to provide counselling or therapy—in the widest possible terms—that is the best method to support individual children and their families . but , clearly , we 're having to do that in the confines of lockdown and social distancing at the moment . some of that money can also be used to support the professional learning and the professional development of counsellors , because , of course , they may be being asked to work in a different way and we need to make sure that they have the appropriate skills and abilities to do that . dawn bowden am: thank you . thank you , minister . lynne neagle am: dawn , before you ask your final question , i 've got a couple of supplementaries—firstly from suzy , and then from hefin . suzy davies am: oh , thank you . my question goes back to the comment you made earlier , minister , about the number of children doubling—sorry , vulnerable children doubling—after the easter break , if we can call it that . so , what i 'm after is a sense of churn in these establishments . so , was that figure a recovery of a number of children that had been there before the easter break , and are the people who are there still the same people as were there right at the beginning of the crisis and the lockdown ? kirsty williams am: suzy , what i believe that we 're seeing in our schools is new pupils coming into school . so , there has been , i know , a real effort on behalf of educationalists and social services staff to really reach out to families and to make sure that they 're aware of the support that is available out there for them and their children , and to be able to give them the confidence that there are—that the hubs are available for them . so , we have seen an increase in children . those numbers are still small and , i believe , potentially , there is an opportunity to build on that and to have further conversations with families about the support that is available for vulnerable children , whether that— . that vulnerability , of course , can cover a whole range of issues . as i said when we last met , this is a constantly evolving situation . the initial response—local authorities and schools worked incredibly fast and incredibly quickly to set up these hubs . we 've seen an evolution in the weeks since that time and i am sure that we will continue to see some evolution in approaches . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin , you had a supplementary—briefly , please . hefin david am: yes , very quickly . i 've been listening to the answers with regard to vulnerable children , following on from that answer . i 'm at home with a vulnerable child—a child who has got additional learning needs . she 's got autism ; she 's four . i imagine there are many , many parents in exactly the same position—i 've heard from them . i have n't heard anything from the school or from the local authority . should i have heard something or should i be proactive in pursuing it ? kirsty williams am: i do n't want to comment on personal cases— hefin david am: but there are many others in this position . kirsty williams am: —but what i would say is that if parents have concerns and want to have a conversation about what support is available to them and their children , they should contact their local education authority to have a conversation as to what support is available . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . dawn , final question , please . dawn bowden am: yes , my last question is really about the potential for the attainment gap between disadvantaged pupils and their more affluent peers . is that a concern for you ? i 'm thinking particularly in relation to those less affluent families in having access to technology and so on . what kind of concerns do you have about that and what are we looking to do to try to ensure that that does n't actually play out ? kirsty williams am: thank you , dawn . all of the statistics would tell us that learning loss and the gap , potentially , will affect those more vulnerable children the most . clearly , we will want to consider that as we think about what the new normal for education may look like , or as we develop into future phases . depending on where that child is in their educational journey , of course , the needs and the potential for loss are slightly different . so , for instance , when we 're thinking about very young children , we could be thinking about a lack of social interaction and the development of oracy skills . of course , that , potentially , then will have a knock-on to their ability to learn to read and then to write , for instance . for other children who are , perhaps , older and heading towards formal examinations , the challenge when they return to school will be a slightly different one . i 'm not sure , chair , whether you want me to give some further details about our continuity-of-learning plan and how we are looking to address digital disadvantage now , or whether there are questions later . lynne neagle am: well , i 've got a question on that coming up , so , if it 's okay , dawn , we 'll go on to that now . before we do that , i was just going to ask how the welsh government is paying due regard to the united nations convention on the rights of the child and , obviously , the right children and young people have to an education . i was going to ask you about the risk of inequality due to varying access to digital resources , which are so important in ensuring continuity of learning . kirsty williams am: you 're absolutely correct , chair . officials are very aware of our responsibilities towards children 's rights in this regard and we are doing whatever we can to ensure that children have an equal opportunity and have equal access to learning at this time . we are fortunate in the regard that , because of previous decisions and investments , we have a strong base on which to build because we have our hwb digital learning platform and because we have invested heavily in the national purchasing of microsoft office and google for education tools , which are available to all families . we have become the first , i think—we 're certainly the first in the uk , and i 'm not sure whether we 're the first across the world , but i think we probably are—to deploy , for instance , adobe spark nationally . but , obviously , access to hardware and connectivity is crucial at this time . officials are working with local authorities to ensure that all children have access to both the hardware and the connectivity they need to be able to participate in digital learning at this particular time . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . just a final question from me : how exactly are we communicating to parents what the expectations are of them in terms of delivering this education at home now ? are there , for example , guidelines on recommended hours of home learning per day of the week or volume of work to be completed ? how are we ensuring that parents know how best to lead their children through this at the moment ? kirsty williams am: firstly , can i recognise what a challenge this is ? we 've just heard from hefin who is carrying on his day job as the assembly member , but is obviously trying to do that as well as care for and provide learning for his children , and i know , chair , that you 're doing the same , and i 'm certainly trying to do the same , and it 's a real challenge , it 's not easy . as part of our 'stay safe . stay learning ' policy statement , advice is available to parents and carers on the hwb platform as to what they best can do to support their children . i think the really important message that i 've been trying to give to parents is not to be too hard on ourselves . i know that everybody is doing the best that they can in really challenging circumstances . and if they have concerns , they should be in contact with their child 's school , but we do have specific advice and guidance to parents on the hwb platform . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 're going to move on now to some questions on examinations from janet finch-saunders . janet , we ca n't hear you . i tell you what , we'll— . janet , do you want to try again ? no . okay , we 'll go on then to questions on higher education and post 16 , and we 'll come back to examinations , if that 's okay . suzy . suzy davies am: yes , thank you , chair . before we leave continuity of learning , do you mind if i just ask this one question ? lynne neagle am: no , that 's fine . yes , go on . suzy davies am: your comment , minister , on working with local authorities to make sure that individuals have hardware : can you just give us a bit of detail on what working with local authorities actually means ? in the process of that , is there any data gathering going on for those pupils who are being educated at home and the levels at which they 're engaging ? you know , are they sticking with it , or how many are dropping out ? because i think the two of those perhaps go together . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . so , i 'm hoping to make an announcement tomorrow , if not later on this week , about some specific details around support for hardware and connectivity . we 're working closely with local authorities to understand just that : to understand from the schools the number of schools that—and a number of them have already done this—have been lending chromebooks , ipads and laptops to children , and also identifying children who are not perhaps engaging in the activities that have been made available . and we 'll be doing two things to support local authorities . the first is to use the stock of equipment that they already have to be able to provide hardware to students . so , we have purchased on a national basis software that , when applied to an old piece of kit , essentially turns it into an out-of-the-box chromebook . because , as you can imagine , just like other things during a pandemic , there has been a rush to buy new stuff on the market and then there is a scramble and nobody can get what they need . so , we 're utilisng kit that is already available in schools and local authorities , and we will look to backfill that to schools at a later point out of our edtech investment programme . the other issue is , once a child has a chromebook or a laptop or a device , issues around connectivity . so , we 're also looking to purchase on a national level and distribute mi-fi connectivity , so students will be able to have access to wi-fi where they do n't have that already . that 's why we need to work closely with local authorities and schools to identify the level of that need and to make sure the stuff gets to the right children . one of the ways in which we are able to do that is to look at engagement in education . so , if a child has n't been engaging , is that because they just do n't want to and they 're voting with their feet—but clearly teachers need to have a conversation about that—or is that because the child simply does not have the ability to do that , and therefore we need to get that stuff out to those children ? so , rather than just simply leaving it to local authorities to scramble around in a very crowded market to get the stuff that they will need , we 're trying to do that on a national basis and deploy that to local authorities . so , our officials have been having conversations with each of our local authorities to ascertain what 's already happened , and there is very good practice out there—schools have been proactive—but where there are gaps , what can we do as a national government to be able to assist them to do that ? we are repurposing some of the resources that we had previously identified for our edtech investment , using those resources to fill this particular gap . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 're going to go back to janet now . i believe we 've got sound again , so janet can ask her questions on examinations . janet . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . i thought it was something at this end ; i 'm glad to hear it was n't . when will vocational learners know what is happening with their assessments , and how will those who have no choice but to wait for a vocational assessment be supported ? kirsty williams am: okay . that 's a very good question , janet , because i know that there has been some concern and anxiety around vocational qualification students and how quickly we 've been able to provide certainty for them . you 'll be aware that qualifications wales have been able , in the last week , to be able to give that greater clarity . so , they have announced that learners due to complete their essential skills wales qualifications will receive results . they have also published their approach to how health and social care qualifications will be managed , because , of course , those are part of the first set of reformed quals that we have done on a wales basis . you are right , there are a group of students who fall into the category where there are technical qualifications that require a certificate of competency to be industry ready—i hope i 've explained that correctly—and , therefore , we are working to understand how we can accommodate those students in these particular circumstances . but , at this stage , there may be some delay for that element of their qualification being delayed to a further date . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: yes . what are your expectations for how a-level and gcse qualifications will be awarded this summer , following the ministerial direction that you have issued to qualifications wales ? for example , how is an appropriate balance being taken between recognising the progress of pupils in their coursework , mock examinations , and other work to date , and also , the potential of pupils who might have performed particularly well in their examinations this summer ? kirsty williams am: well , janet , i understand—and today is a day where some students would have been undertaking practical examinations—i understand how devastating it has been to both students and teachers alike for the decision i had to take to cancel this summer 's exam series . but i 'm absolutely clear that was the only decision that could have been reached . qualifications wales has made it very clear—and for people who would like more information , i would urge them to look at qualifications wales 's website—how they will go about giving , allocating , and awarding a grade to our a-level and gcse students . firstly , teachers will be asked to submit a grade they believe that student would have obtained , should they have taken an exam . and , of course , teachers will have a range of data and their own professional judgment that they will use in awarding that grade . teachers will also be asked to rank students in order . once that information has been submitted to qualifications wales , there will be a process by which that data will be moderated ; moderated from centre to centre and across the nation , thus giving us the chance to award a student a fair grade whilst being , and remaining , true to ensuring that we have a robust qualifications system , and allowing those students who find themselves at a critical stage of their education , where they are looking to move on to the next stages—that they will have the grades that will allow them to make decisions about their future . janet finch-saunders am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you , janet . we 're going to go on now , then , to the questions on higher and further education from suzy davies . suzy . suzy davies am: thank you , chair . i suppose my first question just goes back to the 16-year-olds at the moment and those who are looking forward to either going to college , the older ones going to university , there 'll be apprenticeships , all kinds of future pathways for post 16. what 's happening at school level , or even at college level , to get those students ready for the next steps , because , obviously , they 're not in their usual environments and getting their usual programme of teaching ? kirsty williams am: no , that 's quite right , suzy , and i should have said in answer to janet 's question , as well—i 'm sure people already know , but just to get the point across—that a-level results day and gcse day will run as normal across not just wales , but england , wales and northern ireland , which is really important . you 're right , suzy—for those people that are coming to the end of one part of their education this is a particularly challenging time . you 'll be aware that , last week , on hwb , we were able to launch a programme for year 13 students to help them get ready for university . i 'm very grateful to the he sector in wales , who 've worked really hard with us on that . so , for instance , if you were a year 13 student or even a year 12 student that was thinking about or interested in areas around social policy , you could have tuned into a social policy lecturer at swansea university . if you go to the hwb website , you will be able to see that there are subject listings , everything from animal science through to law , politics , history and science , with links through to higher education and further education courses that students can avail themselves of . there 's also a section on preparation for essential study skills , whether that is report writing or academic writing . so , there is a range of activities and courses available for year 13 , so that children—'children ' ; they 're all children to me—young people can get themselves— . they do n't have to stop learning , and they can get themselves ready for the next stage of their education . again , for those children , perhaps , who are coming to the end of their gcses , there is a range of information , either within their own schools or within their local colleges about things that can keep them learning . so , for instance , i 'm aware of one school where you can go onto the website and there are recommendations of , for instance , what you could be reading over the summer if you 're interested in doing this particular a-level in september . i know that there are also moves in schools and in colleges to be able to make sure that those children do n't miss out on really important careers advice at this time , as well , and information , so they can make informed decisions . i know that people are working hard to link up children to advice services that are available so that they can make those really important future decisions with the advice of either a teacher or other professional so that they 've got those options . so , there is material out there and it 's growing all the time . this week , we were able to launch our virtual seren network . you 'll be aware that , for the last couple of years , we 've been able to send welsh children to the yale global summer school . clearly , that ca n't happen this year . that 's devastating for those year 12s who had worked so hard and had won a place on that programme . they will now be able to attend the yale global scholars programme virtually and remotely , because yale have moved that programme online . so , we 're developing materials and resources all of the time . suzy davies am: thank you for that answer . before i move on to my next question , can you give me some sort of sense of how that hwb domain is being populated ? where is all this information being sourced from ? presumably , they 'll be working with partners , but what does that look like ? kirsty williams am: oh , my goodness . yes , absolutely— suzy davies am: [ inaudible . ] kirsty williams am: yes , we 're working very hard . so , everything from our work with the bbc , for instance , and bbc bitesize through to our fe colleges and our he institutions , as well as other organisations in the third sector who are looking to provide those opportunities . can i just say that , last week , we were looking at , every day , in the region of well over 150,000 logins a day into hwb ? suzy davies am: well , that 's great . so there 's proactive populating of hwb . that 's what i was after . that 's great . just going back to some of janet 's questions and the assessed grades , i want to talk to you about the unconditional offers and where we are with that at the moment for entry to universities , because there 's going to be a scramble now of the available students for further education , but primarily higher education institutions , across the uk . is the moratorium on unconditional offers still standing ? are there conversations going on to extend that moratorium ? otherwise , this scramble is going to potentially negatively affect our universities quite considerably . kirsty williams am: yes , you 'll be aware that a moratorium does exist . it exists in this current context to 1 may . we continue to keep in close touch with colleagues in northern ireland , scotland and in the westminster government around these issues . officials are also in touch with ucas , and in the last couple of days i 've had at least three meetings with representatives of the welsh higher education sector to discuss these matters . suzy davies am: i just want to ask you now about students and their maintenance loan grants . i think they 're getting , around now , the money going into their bank account that they would normally have expected at this time of year . that 's right , yes ? kirsty williams am: that 's correct , yes . suzy davies am: what 's happening to those students who would normally be living in digs somewhere but are now living at home ? are they likely to be asked to reimburse part of the cost , because obviously it 's not as expensive to live at home as away , and what 's likely to be happening with the maintenance loans over the summer holiday period , potentially ? because we 've had a period now where students ca n't top up their maintenance loans by going out and working on weekends or working in the evenings , or whatever , so their income has been impacted . just in the round , what kind of conversations are happening around that ? again , it 's probably a four-nation approach , i would imagine . kirsty williams am: thank you , suzy . you are correct to say that our student support regime does allow for a lower payment to be made to those students that stay at home during their studies , but i want to reassure students that there will be no change to their student support payments just because they have left their universities and have decided to go home . there should be no change . also , we are continuing , it should be important to say , to pay education maintenance allowance at this time for our fe students that are eligible for that , even though , obviously , for ema there is an attendance requirement , but clearly that is not appropriate to enforce at the moment . you are correct—this is a worrying time for many students in higher education , especially for those who are looking to graduate at this time and are going out into an economy that has been tremendously badly hit by the pandemic . at this time , we continue to have conversations with nus wales about what can be done within a welsh context , but , as you quite rightly say , also within a uk context , to support students who may have been affected . we are continuing—on our webpage we have a frequently asked questions section that advises students in the first instance , especially when it comes , for instance , to the cost of accommodation—to have those discussions , and i 'm very grateful that , in some cases , some of our institutions have been able to waive or partially waive accommodation fees where students have vacated their accommodation and have returned to their usual home address . but we will continue to have dialogue with nus wales and with our counterparts across the country to look to see what more we can do to support students at this time . suzy davies am: thank you for that answer , and , yes , i was pleased to see that announcement through the nus as well , so well done to those accommodation providers who have a heart . i think we 'll all have seen the universities uk document that explains some of the difficulties that they 're going to be running into if this proceeds much further . my understanding is that the main emphasis at the moment is to try and get all the universities across the uk through this initial period of difficulty by releasing as much money as possible . i can see that your figure to the higher education funding council for wales was a little bit down on last year 's letter—not that there 's been a remit letter yet , but an indication . are you releasing that money earlier so that they can use it more swiftly , or does that not matter ? lynne neagle am: before you come in , minister , that is going to have to be the last question , just to make you aware of that , because we are coming up to the end of our time . suzy davies am: okay . that 's fine . kirsty williams am: of course , suzy , we are working closely with universities wales and have a lot of sympathy for the proposals that have come forward from universities uk , which wales 's universities have been a part of forming . stability in the first instance is really important to us , which is why we 've been able to give an indication to hefcw about resources that are available , and we 've been very clear to hefcw that we want to be as flexible as possible in how they use those resources to support institutions . that potentially would mean reprofiling the way in which money gets out to institutions , but clearly we will need to have an ongoing discussion about how we respond to the immediacy of the issues facing he , how we can get stability for the next academic year , and how we then can support the sector through what is a really challenging time for them . we will do that in a welsh context and we will continue to do that also in a uk context , because you will have seen the scale of some of the figures that have been talked about in terms of the impact on the he sector at this time . clearly , a four-nation approach to that will be crucial . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . well , we have come to the end of our time , and , as to anything that we did n't ask , we will have to write to the minister . can i just thank the minister and her officials for your attendance today ? we know how busy you are dealing with the pandemic and we very much welcome this opportunity to have this discussion with you . so , thank you , minister and officials for your time . as usual , you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . diolch yn fawr . kirsty williams am: diolch yn fawr , chair . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then . can i propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? okay . i see that members are content , so we will now proceed to meet in private .

hefin david am raised a question concerning the date schools might reopen since there had been an increase in the number of students who had returned to some schools . however , kirsty williams am had not been given an exact date by the chief medical officer and the public had to wait for the advice of the medical and scientific advisers . now , the only thing for certain was the five principles that had been published earlier that day concerning the school reopening issues .

what was included in kirsty williams am 's explanation about five principles ? </s> lynne neagle am: good afternoon , everyone . welcome to the first virtual meeting of the children , young people and education committee . in accordance with standing order 34.19 , i determine that the public are excluded from the committee 's meeting , in order to protect public health . in accordance with standing order 34.21 , notice of this decision was included in the agenda for this meeting , which was published last friday . this meeting is , however , being broadcast live on senedd.tv , with all participants joining via video conference . a record of the proceedings will be published as usual . aside from the procedural adaptation relating to conducting proceedings remotely , all other standing order requirements for committees remain in place . the meeting is bilingual , and simultaneous translation from welsh to english is available . can i remind all participants that the microphones will be controlled centrally , so there 's no need to turn them on and off individually ? can i ask whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . thank you . can i just then , again , note for the record that , if , for any reason , i drop out of the meeting , the committee has agreed that dawn bowden am will temporarily chair while i try to rejoin ? item 2 , then , this afternoon is an evidence session with the welsh government on the impact of the coronavirus epidemic on education in wales . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams am , minister for education , steve davies , director of the education directorate , and huw morris , who is group director , skills , higher education and lifelong learning . can i welcome you all and thank you for attending ? minister , i understand you 'd like to make a short opening statement . kirsty williams am: thank you very much , lynne . and indeed , if i could just begin by , once again , putting on the record my gratitude to everyone who is helping us get through this pandemic . there are a vast number of people who are keeping our school hubs open , looking after vulnerable children , and the children of key workers . because of them , and their efforts , those key workers are able to carry on their critical roles in responding to covid-19 . i am extremely proud of the way that members of the school community have gone above and beyond . they have kept their schools open out of hours , over the weekends , on bank holidays , and easter . and it is really heartening and humbling to see the way that they have responded to this crisis . and there are teachers , teaching assistants , and many others , who are helping our children and their parents to keep learning at home . i know that home schooling is n't easy , so i want to say also thank you to parents and carers for their efforts at this time . by keeping their children at home , they are helping us to keep people safe , and reducing pressure on our education system , and on our nhs . be in no doubt , we are facing many challenges because of this pandemic . my primary concern is , and always will be , the health and well-being of our children , of our young people , and of all the staff in our education settings . and i am very grateful to everyone who is supporting us in these endeavours . thank you very much—diolch yn fawr . and i 'm now happy to answer questions that members of the committee may have this afternoon . lynne neagle am: thank you very much , minister . i 'm sure that the committee echoes the heartfelt thanks you have just given then . the first questions we 've got this afternoon are from hefin david . hefin david am: good afternoon , minister . with regard to your five principles , which you 've set out today , regarding when schools will reopen , they 're very clear that they require a judgment from you . so could you outline when you think that schools might reopen ? kirsty williams am: thank you , hefin . i am very clear that schools will move to a new phase—because , already , schools are open in many settings ; we will move to a new phase when it is safe to do so and when i have advice from the chief medical officer and the chief scientific officer that it is safe to do so . i have made very clear in my statement that that is not imminent . i know that in some cases there has been speculation that a return to normal could be with us quite shortly . i 'm clear that a return to normal is not imminent , and therefore i 'm not in a position to give a date as to when we will see more schools opening up to more children . hefin david am: have you been given any indication at all by the chief medical officer as to when , in the longer term , it might be ? kirsty williams am: no , i have not been given a date . what i have done today is publish the principles that will aid me in , as you said , me making a decision . so , clearly , we will be relying on the advice of our medical and scientific advisers , but the principles are very clear . firstly , we will need to consider any decision to have more children returning to school in the context of the safety and the physical and the emotional well-being of children and young people and the staff . obviously , i ca n't make a decision regarding education in isolation . it will have to be taken in the context of the wider welsh government response to dealing with this pandemic . thirdly , it is absolutely crucial in making any decisions that we have clearly communicated that to parents and to staff , on the information that we have used to reach any decisions , to build confidence for parents and professionals , but also to give them time to plan . it will be impossible to move quickly to new ways of working . and we also have to look at—and it 's been paraphrased quite a lot today—if we are looking at certain groups of children accessing more education within a school setting , which groups they should be . and , finally , how do we operationalise that ? how do we make those settings as safe as they possibly can be , and how do we tackle some of the difficult challenges of everything from ensuring that we have adequate numbers of workforce available , to the very real questions about how you would do social distancing in the context of education , school transport issues , how you would avoid people gathering at the school gate , for instance ? so , there are very practical issues that would need to be considered and thought through very , very carefully before we could return , before what we could see is a move from where we are now to the next phase of education , and new approaches to what schooling may look like . but , again , i must be absolutely clear to you , members of the committee , and to people watching : it is not feasible , in this sense , that we would move from where we are now to what all of us would regard as normal education and what the operation of schools looked like before the start of this pandemic . hefin david am: so , what is clear from what you 've said is that it 's going to be phased return . i would assume that would be the most vulnerable—perhaps additional learning needs pupils would return first . just reading some of the things that you 've said today , can you answer that question ? and can i also ask : you said that guiding principle no . 3 will be having the confidence of parents , staff and students , based on evidence and information , so they can plan ahead . what will that evidence and information be , and how will you know that you 've got the confidence of parents to return ? kirsty williams am: well , as i said , primarily , we will need to take a lead from our scientific and medical advisers . i want to also say that we are obviously working on a four-nation basis and keeping in very close contact with my counterparts in northern ireland , scotland and england . but we 're also looking beyond the united kingdom to approaches to education in the face of this pandemic . members are aware that we as a nation are a member of the atlantic rim collaboratory . so , recently i was able to talk to educationalists and ministers in iceland , other parts of europe , north america , south america and australia . so , we 're also looking at best international evidence in this regard . and , clearly , we will need to be very clear , as today is an attempt to be very clear with parents and our teaching professionals , and the unions that represent them , about the basis of that evidence . hefin david am: and could i just ask , with regard to the principles , do they then apply to further education and universities ? kirsty williams am: well , of course , when we are discussing these challenges , we are doing that with our colleagues in both the school sector but also our colleagues in the fe sector , and we 're in close contact with colleagues in higher education to share thinking on these matters . hefin david am: but these principles do n't apply in those circumstances ; these are principles for schools only . kirsty williams am: these principles are applying to both , and our work in this area is applying to both schools and fe colleges . clearly , universities , as independent institutions , we would n't be able to dictate to . but i want to be absolutely clear : we are working with representatives of the he sector to include them in this work . and i have received , not assurances , but from discussions that i 've had with universities wales and vice-chancellors , they are very keen to be kept apprised of these approaches , because they may well wish to implement something similar within their own institutions . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got a couple of supplementaries now ; firstly , from suzy davies , and then i 'm going to go to siân gwenllian . suzy . no , we ca n't hear suzy . suzy ? no . i 'll go to siân , then , and then i 'll come back to suzy . siân . hefin david am: chair , i do n't think my microphone is muted . sian gwenllian am: okay . i 'll move on to my question to kirsty williams . now , it is clear that any decisions that need to be taken on reopening schools would have to be made in the context of all of the other issues that the welsh government has to take into account . and it is entirely clear that the approach of government towards testing has n't been sufficiently developed for us to even start to think about removing restrictions . so , would n't it be dangerous , if truth be told , to start to discuss reopening schools when we have n't had the necessary testing in place for the majority of the population ? and does n't it convey a mixed message that we 're starting to relax some of these restrictions when , in reality , the restrictions are still in place and still need to be in place robustly ? kirsty williams am: first of all , thank you very much , siân , for that important question . can i be absolutely clear , and i thought i had been pretty clear in answering hefin david , that we are not relaxing any of the restrictions with regard to education ? as i said to hefin , it is not imminent that we would see a further phase in the next stage of education here in wales . what i have done today is to provide clarity on the nature of the principles that i would use when coming to any discussion . it is the responsibility of me , as the minister , and indeed of the wider government , to begin to think about planning for the future . but i have been absolutely clear : we are not moving to an imminent change in how education is operating at the moment . and i 'm also very , very clear that should we be given the opportunity to see more children in our schools , i will only do that when it is safe for me to do so , when i 've been advised by the cmo that i am able to do that , and we have given sufficient time and planning to the sector to respond . it is not going to be easy , and we will need to give them , as a sector , time to be able to address . but if i have not been clear enough , let me say it again : we are not relaxing any issues around schools at present , nor is that imminent . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , i think we can try going to you again now . suzy davies am: thank you . minister , in your consideration of introducing a phased return to school , in due course , have you taken into consideration how things like school absences are going to be managed ? because , regardless of the amount of good work you do on messaging , there will still be some families that do n't realise that going back to school is for their particular family . will there be a relaxation of , effectively , what we would call truancy rules ? or is that something that schools will be getting guidance on much up-front ? kirsty williams am: thank you , suzy . as i said in my statement earlier today , returning to school will not be a return to normal , and in recognition of this , i 've already made it clear that i will seek , in all opportunities , to reduce the burdens on school . that includes various data collection , the suspension of performance measures and removing the requirement to undertake literacy and numeracy testing , and , clearly , school attendance will want to be an important factor of that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . i 'm keen to go on now to talk about the current situation as being faced by our children and young people in schools with some questions from siân gwenllian . siân . sian gwenllian am: since yesterday , the welsh government has started publishing data on the number of schools that are open , the number of children attending those schools , and the number of staff involved , and they have been making this information available as per capita of the population . on average , i think it 's 1 per cent of the children of wales that actually attend these locations , and some 5 per cent of the staff . so , can you analyse those figures a little further ? can you tell us how many children , according to this data , are children of key workers , and how many are vulnerable children ? kirsty williams am: thank you very much , siân . as you quite rightly say , on average , we have 518 school hubs open each day , with up to 4,200 children attending . we have seen an increase in the number of attendances since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term . we have approximately 5.6 per cent of the teaching population working in those hubs , and at present , 85 per cent of the children who are attending are the children of key workers , the remainder being vulnerable children . so , we are now averaging 600 vulnerable children per day . these are small numbers , but we have seen an increase in those numbers since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term . sian gwenllian am: okay . i 'm sure we 'll return to that point a little later on . how much confidence do you therefore have that the arrangements are effective in terms of the safety of staff and children at these locations ? kirsty williams am: thank you once again for that . the smooth operation of the hubs , with regard to health and safety , is , of course , of paramount importance . what we have seen since schools closed for traditional statutory purposes and moving to their repurposed function—we have seen a change of pattern over time . so , following my announcement on , i believe , 18 march , the week after , we saw a large number of settings open and operating . as local authorities have been able to understand the demand for those places—from critical workers and vulnerable children—we have seen more local authorities move to a hub model , and we have been able to publish guidance to local authorities on how issues around safe working in those hubs should be followed , and we 've been able to give guidance in that regard . local authorities are asked by us to report any incidents where they are concerned about operation issues on the ground . sian gwenllian am: as i mentioned earlier , testing is crucially important in dealing with this crisis . so , how many school staff have been tested for covid because they may have experienced symptoms and so on ? and how many of those have tested positive ? kirsty williams am: my understanding from public health wales is that 15 teachers have been tested for covid-19 , and i believe two of those results have come back as positive . can i make it absolutely clear , the week before last , welsh government issued new guidance around who should be tested ? i want to make it absolutely clear to those professionals working in our hubs , if they or a member of their family are exhibiting any of the symptoms , however mild , of covid-19 , they can and they should be tested . sian gwenllian am: okay . and the final question from me on this : how important is testing going to be in this next phase , as you start to think about relaxing restrictions ? kirsty williams am: obviously , the ability to be able to test , to trace and to quarantine will be critical to the next phase and will be a very , very important and significant building block in all aspects of the government 's work to respond to this pandemic . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you , minister , and thank you , siân . we 've got some questions now on the impact on particular groups of children , from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . just following on from your answer to siân gwenllian earlier about the number of vulnerable children in school , what 's being done specifically to facilitate more of those children coming into a school setting or hub at the moment ? i 'm thinking about the 600 you 've talked about , and i know , in one of my local authority areas of merthyr , which is a very small authority , we 're talking about the number of children identified as vulnerable running into thousands , not hundreds , and that 's just in one authority . so , this is a particularly difficult issue to address , i appreciate , but how are we going to get more of these children into the hubs ? kirsty williams am: okay , dawn . the first thing to say is that the issue of vulnerable children attending settings is one that is a challenge to not just wales , but also to my colleagues in northern ireland , scotland and england . i 'm pleased to say that we are working across government departments—myself , obviously , and colleagues in education—with colleagues in social services to have a cross-government approach to these issues . i think the first thing to say is that these are complex messages , because the overriding public health message from our government has been to stay at home and children should be kept at home as much as possible , and to make sure that our hubs run smoothly , safely and effectively , we do need to limit the number of children who are attending those hubs . so , firstly , the fact that numbers are small is in some ways a success of our public health messages , because parents have been heeding those messages , but , of course , all of us will have concerns for some children who remain at home . so , i 'm pleased to say that we have seen a doubling in the last week of the number of children . so , although numbers are small , they have doubled over the course of the last week . we 're working with local authorities and they have assured us that children and young people with a social worker have been risk assessed on a multi-agency basis and are receiving support in a number of ways , and that includes having conversations about some of those children attending the hubs . they 're also looking to support in other ways . of course , some of our children who would be classed as vulnerable—and our definition of 'vulnerable ' is one that is shared between the systems in england and wales—could be children with a statement of special educational needs . for some of those children who , perhaps , have very intense health needs , actually , staying at home is the appropriate thing for that child and that family to do , and we 're looking to support families , and local authorities and local education systems are looking to support families , in a number of ways . we also know that just because you do n't have a social worker or a statement of special educational needs does not mean that a child may not be vulnerable , and schools are very aware of the needs of those children and have been carrying out regular telephone check-ins where they can—if the age of the child is appropriate—just to keep in touch with those families and those individual children . but we will continue to work across government to encourage , where it is appropriate , children to attend settings , and , if it is not appropriate for children to be in a setting , that there is contact with those children and young people to ensure that they remain , and their families remain , supported . dawn bowden am: thank you , minister . it 's encouraging to hear you talk about the ongoing safeguarding of children that are at home and i assume , within that , appropriate referral mechanisms are still in place if teachers or anybody has any particular concern about a child . similarly , with special educational needs , whereas some of those children benefit clearly from a one-to-one provision in a school , and they may not respond as well to remote working , or remote contact , with an sen advisor , are you considering in any way any relaxation of the lockdown rule in particular for those children in terms of them being able to access the support that they need for their particular educational needs ? kirsty williams am: well , first of all , dawn , you 're absolutely right : my expectation is that schools should remain in contact with children and continue to identify vulnerable children , and schools should continue to refer children to children 's services if they have any concerns , and that would also , of course , be the case for youth workers who may be keeping in contact with children . so , there is a professional expectation on all those that are working with our children and young people that , despite the circumstances they find themselves in , they should continue to report and refer cases if they see anything or hear or are told anything that makes them concerned about a child 's welfare and safety . with regard to children with additional learning needs , i am aware that that can present a number of challenges to families and children , and perhaps steve davies could give some further details . we have been keen to work with local authorities to ensure specialist provision , where that is appropriate—so , if i could give you an example of my own local authority in powys , they have two specialist centres available for children with more profound additional learning needs , and those centres are available—recognising , however , that , even with the provision of specialist hubs , it can be a challenge for some children with additional learning needs to find themselves outside of a routine . hubs are often staffed on a rota basis and therefore children could be faced with staff that they are unfamiliar with . so , even when local authorities—and the vast , vast majority of them do—have specialist services in place , sometimes that might not be the best thing for a child 's health and well-being . but perhaps steve can give us further details of the conversations that have been taking place with directors of education to ensure that children with additional learning needs have access to the hubs and specialist support . steve . steve davies: yes , myself and colleague albert heaney—colleague-director—have been in regular touch with directors of education and directors of social services to make sure that these children and young people 's needs are catered for . we are very aware of all of the special schools—profound and multiple learning difficulties , ebd schools and pupil referral units—that have been kept open in their own way , but also , in some cases , as hubs , to deliver those services for those children 's needs , and we 're pleased that the directors and the local authorities have responded so constructively . so , we have the details of every school that 's open , the pupils who are attending , and we are clear that the risk assessments that the minister referred to for children with special needs , as well as wider vulnerable groups—they are having risk assessments to make sure that , where there is a need identified for a pupil that is not currently attending a hub , then the local authority can be working with that child and with the parents . lynne neagle am: thank you , steve . dawn . dawn bowden am: thank you . just two more questions . one is around emotional and mental health difficulties being experienced by children and young people at the moment . now , there was a very welcome announcement of £1.25 million pounds for school counselling . how is that , in practical terms , being applied if those children are not actually in school ? kirsty williams am: you 're right , dawn : we have to consider how we can support children not only in their learning during this time , but also to recognise the very real impact that the pandemic will have on all of our mental health and well-being—recognising , of course , it is absolutely natural for all of us , including children and young people , to have fears and anxieties at this time . that 's a natural reaction to the situation that we find ourselves in . but , of course , there are issues around those children that would have currently been receiving school counselling , and also being able to be in a position to respond to a potential growth in the number of children that are receiving support . so , the additional money will be made available to local authorities to be able to increase and ramp up services to support children and families . in the immediacy , of course , that will have to be done in different ways than perhaps we 've traditionally delivered services in the past , because of social distancing and lockdown rules , but we want to get some of these systems in place now , rather than waiting for everything to go back to normal . we need to be able to plan to offer services in the here and now , but also be able to plan for what potentially could be an increase in the demand of those services . so , we 've been in close touch with local authorities , asking them what they believe that they will need and how they can use additional financial resources , and we 've been very pleased to be able to secure that for them . dawn bowden am: so , that would include things like telephone and video support as well , i guess , then . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . so , that would include remote counselling as in a fashion that we 're doing now , but also , as and when some of the restrictions are perhaps removed , looking at an enhanced family therapy , or a therapy approach . so , when we talk about counselling , i think it 's important to recognise that there will be some flexibility around this money and it does not necessarily mean that local authorities have to use it on a one-to-one basis . that might not be appropriate for some children , especially our younger children and their families , and they can use that money to provide counselling or therapy—in the widest possible terms—that is the best method to support individual children and their families . but , clearly , we 're having to do that in the confines of lockdown and social distancing at the moment . some of that money can also be used to support the professional learning and the professional development of counsellors , because , of course , they may be being asked to work in a different way and we need to make sure that they have the appropriate skills and abilities to do that . dawn bowden am: thank you . thank you , minister . lynne neagle am: dawn , before you ask your final question , i 've got a couple of supplementaries—firstly from suzy , and then from hefin . suzy davies am: oh , thank you . my question goes back to the comment you made earlier , minister , about the number of children doubling—sorry , vulnerable children doubling—after the easter break , if we can call it that . so , what i 'm after is a sense of churn in these establishments . so , was that figure a recovery of a number of children that had been there before the easter break , and are the people who are there still the same people as were there right at the beginning of the crisis and the lockdown ? kirsty williams am: suzy , what i believe that we 're seeing in our schools is new pupils coming into school . so , there has been , i know , a real effort on behalf of educationalists and social services staff to really reach out to families and to make sure that they 're aware of the support that is available out there for them and their children , and to be able to give them the confidence that there are—that the hubs are available for them . so , we have seen an increase in children . those numbers are still small and , i believe , potentially , there is an opportunity to build on that and to have further conversations with families about the support that is available for vulnerable children , whether that— . that vulnerability , of course , can cover a whole range of issues . as i said when we last met , this is a constantly evolving situation . the initial response—local authorities and schools worked incredibly fast and incredibly quickly to set up these hubs . we 've seen an evolution in the weeks since that time and i am sure that we will continue to see some evolution in approaches . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin , you had a supplementary—briefly , please . hefin david am: yes , very quickly . i 've been listening to the answers with regard to vulnerable children , following on from that answer . i 'm at home with a vulnerable child—a child who has got additional learning needs . she 's got autism ; she 's four . i imagine there are many , many parents in exactly the same position—i 've heard from them . i have n't heard anything from the school or from the local authority . should i have heard something or should i be proactive in pursuing it ? kirsty williams am: i do n't want to comment on personal cases— hefin david am: but there are many others in this position . kirsty williams am: —but what i would say is that if parents have concerns and want to have a conversation about what support is available to them and their children , they should contact their local education authority to have a conversation as to what support is available . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . dawn , final question , please . dawn bowden am: yes , my last question is really about the potential for the attainment gap between disadvantaged pupils and their more affluent peers . is that a concern for you ? i 'm thinking particularly in relation to those less affluent families in having access to technology and so on . what kind of concerns do you have about that and what are we looking to do to try to ensure that that does n't actually play out ? kirsty williams am: thank you , dawn . all of the statistics would tell us that learning loss and the gap , potentially , will affect those more vulnerable children the most . clearly , we will want to consider that as we think about what the new normal for education may look like , or as we develop into future phases . depending on where that child is in their educational journey , of course , the needs and the potential for loss are slightly different . so , for instance , when we 're thinking about very young children , we could be thinking about a lack of social interaction and the development of oracy skills . of course , that , potentially , then will have a knock-on to their ability to learn to read and then to write , for instance . for other children who are , perhaps , older and heading towards formal examinations , the challenge when they return to school will be a slightly different one . i 'm not sure , chair , whether you want me to give some further details about our continuity-of-learning plan and how we are looking to address digital disadvantage now , or whether there are questions later . lynne neagle am: well , i 've got a question on that coming up , so , if it 's okay , dawn , we 'll go on to that now . before we do that , i was just going to ask how the welsh government is paying due regard to the united nations convention on the rights of the child and , obviously , the right children and young people have to an education . i was going to ask you about the risk of inequality due to varying access to digital resources , which are so important in ensuring continuity of learning . kirsty williams am: you 're absolutely correct , chair . officials are very aware of our responsibilities towards children 's rights in this regard and we are doing whatever we can to ensure that children have an equal opportunity and have equal access to learning at this time . we are fortunate in the regard that , because of previous decisions and investments , we have a strong base on which to build because we have our hwb digital learning platform and because we have invested heavily in the national purchasing of microsoft office and google for education tools , which are available to all families . we have become the first , i think—we 're certainly the first in the uk , and i 'm not sure whether we 're the first across the world , but i think we probably are—to deploy , for instance , adobe spark nationally . but , obviously , access to hardware and connectivity is crucial at this time . officials are working with local authorities to ensure that all children have access to both the hardware and the connectivity they need to be able to participate in digital learning at this particular time . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . just a final question from me : how exactly are we communicating to parents what the expectations are of them in terms of delivering this education at home now ? are there , for example , guidelines on recommended hours of home learning per day of the week or volume of work to be completed ? how are we ensuring that parents know how best to lead their children through this at the moment ? kirsty williams am: firstly , can i recognise what a challenge this is ? we 've just heard from hefin who is carrying on his day job as the assembly member , but is obviously trying to do that as well as care for and provide learning for his children , and i know , chair , that you 're doing the same , and i 'm certainly trying to do the same , and it 's a real challenge , it 's not easy . as part of our 'stay safe . stay learning ' policy statement , advice is available to parents and carers on the hwb platform as to what they best can do to support their children . i think the really important message that i 've been trying to give to parents is not to be too hard on ourselves . i know that everybody is doing the best that they can in really challenging circumstances . and if they have concerns , they should be in contact with their child 's school , but we do have specific advice and guidance to parents on the hwb platform . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 're going to move on now to some questions on examinations from janet finch-saunders . janet , we ca n't hear you . i tell you what , we'll— . janet , do you want to try again ? no . okay , we 'll go on then to questions on higher education and post 16 , and we 'll come back to examinations , if that 's okay . suzy . suzy davies am: yes , thank you , chair . before we leave continuity of learning , do you mind if i just ask this one question ? lynne neagle am: no , that 's fine . yes , go on . suzy davies am: your comment , minister , on working with local authorities to make sure that individuals have hardware : can you just give us a bit of detail on what working with local authorities actually means ? in the process of that , is there any data gathering going on for those pupils who are being educated at home and the levels at which they 're engaging ? you know , are they sticking with it , or how many are dropping out ? because i think the two of those perhaps go together . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . so , i 'm hoping to make an announcement tomorrow , if not later on this week , about some specific details around support for hardware and connectivity . we 're working closely with local authorities to understand just that : to understand from the schools the number of schools that—and a number of them have already done this—have been lending chromebooks , ipads and laptops to children , and also identifying children who are not perhaps engaging in the activities that have been made available . and we 'll be doing two things to support local authorities . the first is to use the stock of equipment that they already have to be able to provide hardware to students . so , we have purchased on a national basis software that , when applied to an old piece of kit , essentially turns it into an out-of-the-box chromebook . because , as you can imagine , just like other things during a pandemic , there has been a rush to buy new stuff on the market and then there is a scramble and nobody can get what they need . so , we 're utilisng kit that is already available in schools and local authorities , and we will look to backfill that to schools at a later point out of our edtech investment programme . the other issue is , once a child has a chromebook or a laptop or a device , issues around connectivity . so , we 're also looking to purchase on a national level and distribute mi-fi connectivity , so students will be able to have access to wi-fi where they do n't have that already . that 's why we need to work closely with local authorities and schools to identify the level of that need and to make sure the stuff gets to the right children . one of the ways in which we are able to do that is to look at engagement in education . so , if a child has n't been engaging , is that because they just do n't want to and they 're voting with their feet—but clearly teachers need to have a conversation about that—or is that because the child simply does not have the ability to do that , and therefore we need to get that stuff out to those children ? so , rather than just simply leaving it to local authorities to scramble around in a very crowded market to get the stuff that they will need , we 're trying to do that on a national basis and deploy that to local authorities . so , our officials have been having conversations with each of our local authorities to ascertain what 's already happened , and there is very good practice out there—schools have been proactive—but where there are gaps , what can we do as a national government to be able to assist them to do that ? we are repurposing some of the resources that we had previously identified for our edtech investment , using those resources to fill this particular gap . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 're going to go back to janet now . i believe we 've got sound again , so janet can ask her questions on examinations . janet . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . i thought it was something at this end ; i 'm glad to hear it was n't . when will vocational learners know what is happening with their assessments , and how will those who have no choice but to wait for a vocational assessment be supported ? kirsty williams am: okay . that 's a very good question , janet , because i know that there has been some concern and anxiety around vocational qualification students and how quickly we 've been able to provide certainty for them . you 'll be aware that qualifications wales have been able , in the last week , to be able to give that greater clarity . so , they have announced that learners due to complete their essential skills wales qualifications will receive results . they have also published their approach to how health and social care qualifications will be managed , because , of course , those are part of the first set of reformed quals that we have done on a wales basis . you are right , there are a group of students who fall into the category where there are technical qualifications that require a certificate of competency to be industry ready—i hope i 've explained that correctly—and , therefore , we are working to understand how we can accommodate those students in these particular circumstances . but , at this stage , there may be some delay for that element of their qualification being delayed to a further date . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: yes . what are your expectations for how a-level and gcse qualifications will be awarded this summer , following the ministerial direction that you have issued to qualifications wales ? for example , how is an appropriate balance being taken between recognising the progress of pupils in their coursework , mock examinations , and other work to date , and also , the potential of pupils who might have performed particularly well in their examinations this summer ? kirsty williams am: well , janet , i understand—and today is a day where some students would have been undertaking practical examinations—i understand how devastating it has been to both students and teachers alike for the decision i had to take to cancel this summer 's exam series . but i 'm absolutely clear that was the only decision that could have been reached . qualifications wales has made it very clear—and for people who would like more information , i would urge them to look at qualifications wales 's website—how they will go about giving , allocating , and awarding a grade to our a-level and gcse students . firstly , teachers will be asked to submit a grade they believe that student would have obtained , should they have taken an exam . and , of course , teachers will have a range of data and their own professional judgment that they will use in awarding that grade . teachers will also be asked to rank students in order . once that information has been submitted to qualifications wales , there will be a process by which that data will be moderated ; moderated from centre to centre and across the nation , thus giving us the chance to award a student a fair grade whilst being , and remaining , true to ensuring that we have a robust qualifications system , and allowing those students who find themselves at a critical stage of their education , where they are looking to move on to the next stages—that they will have the grades that will allow them to make decisions about their future . janet finch-saunders am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you , janet . we 're going to go on now , then , to the questions on higher and further education from suzy davies . suzy . suzy davies am: thank you , chair . i suppose my first question just goes back to the 16-year-olds at the moment and those who are looking forward to either going to college , the older ones going to university , there 'll be apprenticeships , all kinds of future pathways for post 16. what 's happening at school level , or even at college level , to get those students ready for the next steps , because , obviously , they 're not in their usual environments and getting their usual programme of teaching ? kirsty williams am: no , that 's quite right , suzy , and i should have said in answer to janet 's question , as well—i 'm sure people already know , but just to get the point across—that a-level results day and gcse day will run as normal across not just wales , but england , wales and northern ireland , which is really important . you 're right , suzy—for those people that are coming to the end of one part of their education this is a particularly challenging time . you 'll be aware that , last week , on hwb , we were able to launch a programme for year 13 students to help them get ready for university . i 'm very grateful to the he sector in wales , who 've worked really hard with us on that . so , for instance , if you were a year 13 student or even a year 12 student that was thinking about or interested in areas around social policy , you could have tuned into a social policy lecturer at swansea university . if you go to the hwb website , you will be able to see that there are subject listings , everything from animal science through to law , politics , history and science , with links through to higher education and further education courses that students can avail themselves of . there 's also a section on preparation for essential study skills , whether that is report writing or academic writing . so , there is a range of activities and courses available for year 13 , so that children—'children ' ; they 're all children to me—young people can get themselves— . they do n't have to stop learning , and they can get themselves ready for the next stage of their education . again , for those children , perhaps , who are coming to the end of their gcses , there is a range of information , either within their own schools or within their local colleges about things that can keep them learning . so , for instance , i 'm aware of one school where you can go onto the website and there are recommendations of , for instance , what you could be reading over the summer if you 're interested in doing this particular a-level in september . i know that there are also moves in schools and in colleges to be able to make sure that those children do n't miss out on really important careers advice at this time , as well , and information , so they can make informed decisions . i know that people are working hard to link up children to advice services that are available so that they can make those really important future decisions with the advice of either a teacher or other professional so that they 've got those options . so , there is material out there and it 's growing all the time . this week , we were able to launch our virtual seren network . you 'll be aware that , for the last couple of years , we 've been able to send welsh children to the yale global summer school . clearly , that ca n't happen this year . that 's devastating for those year 12s who had worked so hard and had won a place on that programme . they will now be able to attend the yale global scholars programme virtually and remotely , because yale have moved that programme online . so , we 're developing materials and resources all of the time . suzy davies am: thank you for that answer . before i move on to my next question , can you give me some sort of sense of how that hwb domain is being populated ? where is all this information being sourced from ? presumably , they 'll be working with partners , but what does that look like ? kirsty williams am: oh , my goodness . yes , absolutely— suzy davies am: [ inaudible . ] kirsty williams am: yes , we 're working very hard . so , everything from our work with the bbc , for instance , and bbc bitesize through to our fe colleges and our he institutions , as well as other organisations in the third sector who are looking to provide those opportunities . can i just say that , last week , we were looking at , every day , in the region of well over 150,000 logins a day into hwb ? suzy davies am: well , that 's great . so there 's proactive populating of hwb . that 's what i was after . that 's great . just going back to some of janet 's questions and the assessed grades , i want to talk to you about the unconditional offers and where we are with that at the moment for entry to universities , because there 's going to be a scramble now of the available students for further education , but primarily higher education institutions , across the uk . is the moratorium on unconditional offers still standing ? are there conversations going on to extend that moratorium ? otherwise , this scramble is going to potentially negatively affect our universities quite considerably . kirsty williams am: yes , you 'll be aware that a moratorium does exist . it exists in this current context to 1 may . we continue to keep in close touch with colleagues in northern ireland , scotland and in the westminster government around these issues . officials are also in touch with ucas , and in the last couple of days i 've had at least three meetings with representatives of the welsh higher education sector to discuss these matters . suzy davies am: i just want to ask you now about students and their maintenance loan grants . i think they 're getting , around now , the money going into their bank account that they would normally have expected at this time of year . that 's right , yes ? kirsty williams am: that 's correct , yes . suzy davies am: what 's happening to those students who would normally be living in digs somewhere but are now living at home ? are they likely to be asked to reimburse part of the cost , because obviously it 's not as expensive to live at home as away , and what 's likely to be happening with the maintenance loans over the summer holiday period , potentially ? because we 've had a period now where students ca n't top up their maintenance loans by going out and working on weekends or working in the evenings , or whatever , so their income has been impacted . just in the round , what kind of conversations are happening around that ? again , it 's probably a four-nation approach , i would imagine . kirsty williams am: thank you , suzy . you are correct to say that our student support regime does allow for a lower payment to be made to those students that stay at home during their studies , but i want to reassure students that there will be no change to their student support payments just because they have left their universities and have decided to go home . there should be no change . also , we are continuing , it should be important to say , to pay education maintenance allowance at this time for our fe students that are eligible for that , even though , obviously , for ema there is an attendance requirement , but clearly that is not appropriate to enforce at the moment . you are correct—this is a worrying time for many students in higher education , especially for those who are looking to graduate at this time and are going out into an economy that has been tremendously badly hit by the pandemic . at this time , we continue to have conversations with nus wales about what can be done within a welsh context , but , as you quite rightly say , also within a uk context , to support students who may have been affected . we are continuing—on our webpage we have a frequently asked questions section that advises students in the first instance , especially when it comes , for instance , to the cost of accommodation—to have those discussions , and i 'm very grateful that , in some cases , some of our institutions have been able to waive or partially waive accommodation fees where students have vacated their accommodation and have returned to their usual home address . but we will continue to have dialogue with nus wales and with our counterparts across the country to look to see what more we can do to support students at this time . suzy davies am: thank you for that answer , and , yes , i was pleased to see that announcement through the nus as well , so well done to those accommodation providers who have a heart . i think we 'll all have seen the universities uk document that explains some of the difficulties that they 're going to be running into if this proceeds much further . my understanding is that the main emphasis at the moment is to try and get all the universities across the uk through this initial period of difficulty by releasing as much money as possible . i can see that your figure to the higher education funding council for wales was a little bit down on last year 's letter—not that there 's been a remit letter yet , but an indication . are you releasing that money earlier so that they can use it more swiftly , or does that not matter ? lynne neagle am: before you come in , minister , that is going to have to be the last question , just to make you aware of that , because we are coming up to the end of our time . suzy davies am: okay . that 's fine . kirsty williams am: of course , suzy , we are working closely with universities wales and have a lot of sympathy for the proposals that have come forward from universities uk , which wales 's universities have been a part of forming . stability in the first instance is really important to us , which is why we 've been able to give an indication to hefcw about resources that are available , and we 've been very clear to hefcw that we want to be as flexible as possible in how they use those resources to support institutions . that potentially would mean reprofiling the way in which money gets out to institutions , but clearly we will need to have an ongoing discussion about how we respond to the immediacy of the issues facing he , how we can get stability for the next academic year , and how we then can support the sector through what is a really challenging time for them . we will do that in a welsh context and we will continue to do that also in a uk context , because you will have seen the scale of some of the figures that have been talked about in terms of the impact on the he sector at this time . clearly , a four-nation approach to that will be crucial . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . well , we have come to the end of our time , and , as to anything that we did n't ask , we will have to write to the minister . can i just thank the minister and her officials for your attendance today ? we know how busy you are dealing with the pandemic and we very much welcome this opportunity to have this discussion with you . so , thank you , minister and officials for your time . as usual , you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . diolch yn fawr . kirsty williams am: diolch yn fawr , chair . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then . can i propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? okay . i see that members are content , so we will now proceed to meet in private .

firstly , any decision to have more children returning to school made should align with the safety and the physical and the emotional well-being of students and the staff . secondly , new decisions made from the education ministry should be taken in the context of the wider welsh government response to dealing with this pandemic . thirdly , communication with the parents and staff were crucial and they should be given time to adapt to the changes . moreover , certain groups of children accessing more education within a school setting should also be considered . lastly , to have adequate numbers of workforce available in order to assure those settings as safe as possible , and how to tackle with the challenges about keeping social distancing in the context of education or school transport issues should be taken into account .

what did the meeting talk about the current education situation ? </s> lynne neagle am: good afternoon , everyone . welcome to the first virtual meeting of the children , young people and education committee . in accordance with standing order 34.19 , i determine that the public are excluded from the committee 's meeting , in order to protect public health . in accordance with standing order 34.21 , notice of this decision was included in the agenda for this meeting , which was published last friday . this meeting is , however , being broadcast live on senedd.tv , with all participants joining via video conference . a record of the proceedings will be published as usual . aside from the procedural adaptation relating to conducting proceedings remotely , all other standing order requirements for committees remain in place . the meeting is bilingual , and simultaneous translation from welsh to english is available . can i remind all participants that the microphones will be controlled centrally , so there 's no need to turn them on and off individually ? can i ask whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . thank you . can i just then , again , note for the record that , if , for any reason , i drop out of the meeting , the committee has agreed that dawn bowden am will temporarily chair while i try to rejoin ? item 2 , then , this afternoon is an evidence session with the welsh government on the impact of the coronavirus epidemic on education in wales . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams am , minister for education , steve davies , director of the education directorate , and huw morris , who is group director , skills , higher education and lifelong learning . can i welcome you all and thank you for attending ? minister , i understand you 'd like to make a short opening statement . kirsty williams am: thank you very much , lynne . and indeed , if i could just begin by , once again , putting on the record my gratitude to everyone who is helping us get through this pandemic . there are a vast number of people who are keeping our school hubs open , looking after vulnerable children , and the children of key workers . because of them , and their efforts , those key workers are able to carry on their critical roles in responding to covid-19 . i am extremely proud of the way that members of the school community have gone above and beyond . they have kept their schools open out of hours , over the weekends , on bank holidays , and easter . and it is really heartening and humbling to see the way that they have responded to this crisis . and there are teachers , teaching assistants , and many others , who are helping our children and their parents to keep learning at home . i know that home schooling is n't easy , so i want to say also thank you to parents and carers for their efforts at this time . by keeping their children at home , they are helping us to keep people safe , and reducing pressure on our education system , and on our nhs . be in no doubt , we are facing many challenges because of this pandemic . my primary concern is , and always will be , the health and well-being of our children , of our young people , and of all the staff in our education settings . and i am very grateful to everyone who is supporting us in these endeavours . thank you very much—diolch yn fawr . and i 'm now happy to answer questions that members of the committee may have this afternoon . lynne neagle am: thank you very much , minister . i 'm sure that the committee echoes the heartfelt thanks you have just given then . the first questions we 've got this afternoon are from hefin david . hefin david am: good afternoon , minister . with regard to your five principles , which you 've set out today , regarding when schools will reopen , they 're very clear that they require a judgment from you . so could you outline when you think that schools might reopen ? kirsty williams am: thank you , hefin . i am very clear that schools will move to a new phase—because , already , schools are open in many settings ; we will move to a new phase when it is safe to do so and when i have advice from the chief medical officer and the chief scientific officer that it is safe to do so . i have made very clear in my statement that that is not imminent . i know that in some cases there has been speculation that a return to normal could be with us quite shortly . i 'm clear that a return to normal is not imminent , and therefore i 'm not in a position to give a date as to when we will see more schools opening up to more children . hefin david am: have you been given any indication at all by the chief medical officer as to when , in the longer term , it might be ? kirsty williams am: no , i have not been given a date . what i have done today is publish the principles that will aid me in , as you said , me making a decision . so , clearly , we will be relying on the advice of our medical and scientific advisers , but the principles are very clear . firstly , we will need to consider any decision to have more children returning to school in the context of the safety and the physical and the emotional well-being of children and young people and the staff . obviously , i ca n't make a decision regarding education in isolation . it will have to be taken in the context of the wider welsh government response to dealing with this pandemic . thirdly , it is absolutely crucial in making any decisions that we have clearly communicated that to parents and to staff , on the information that we have used to reach any decisions , to build confidence for parents and professionals , but also to give them time to plan . it will be impossible to move quickly to new ways of working . and we also have to look at—and it 's been paraphrased quite a lot today—if we are looking at certain groups of children accessing more education within a school setting , which groups they should be . and , finally , how do we operationalise that ? how do we make those settings as safe as they possibly can be , and how do we tackle some of the difficult challenges of everything from ensuring that we have adequate numbers of workforce available , to the very real questions about how you would do social distancing in the context of education , school transport issues , how you would avoid people gathering at the school gate , for instance ? so , there are very practical issues that would need to be considered and thought through very , very carefully before we could return , before what we could see is a move from where we are now to the next phase of education , and new approaches to what schooling may look like . but , again , i must be absolutely clear to you , members of the committee , and to people watching : it is not feasible , in this sense , that we would move from where we are now to what all of us would regard as normal education and what the operation of schools looked like before the start of this pandemic . hefin david am: so , what is clear from what you 've said is that it 's going to be phased return . i would assume that would be the most vulnerable—perhaps additional learning needs pupils would return first . just reading some of the things that you 've said today , can you answer that question ? and can i also ask : you said that guiding principle no . 3 will be having the confidence of parents , staff and students , based on evidence and information , so they can plan ahead . what will that evidence and information be , and how will you know that you 've got the confidence of parents to return ? kirsty williams am: well , as i said , primarily , we will need to take a lead from our scientific and medical advisers . i want to also say that we are obviously working on a four-nation basis and keeping in very close contact with my counterparts in northern ireland , scotland and england . but we 're also looking beyond the united kingdom to approaches to education in the face of this pandemic . members are aware that we as a nation are a member of the atlantic rim collaboratory . so , recently i was able to talk to educationalists and ministers in iceland , other parts of europe , north america , south america and australia . so , we 're also looking at best international evidence in this regard . and , clearly , we will need to be very clear , as today is an attempt to be very clear with parents and our teaching professionals , and the unions that represent them , about the basis of that evidence . hefin david am: and could i just ask , with regard to the principles , do they then apply to further education and universities ? kirsty williams am: well , of course , when we are discussing these challenges , we are doing that with our colleagues in both the school sector but also our colleagues in the fe sector , and we 're in close contact with colleagues in higher education to share thinking on these matters . hefin david am: but these principles do n't apply in those circumstances ; these are principles for schools only . kirsty williams am: these principles are applying to both , and our work in this area is applying to both schools and fe colleges . clearly , universities , as independent institutions , we would n't be able to dictate to . but i want to be absolutely clear : we are working with representatives of the he sector to include them in this work . and i have received , not assurances , but from discussions that i 've had with universities wales and vice-chancellors , they are very keen to be kept apprised of these approaches , because they may well wish to implement something similar within their own institutions . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got a couple of supplementaries now ; firstly , from suzy davies , and then i 'm going to go to siân gwenllian . suzy . no , we ca n't hear suzy . suzy ? no . i 'll go to siân , then , and then i 'll come back to suzy . siân . hefin david am: chair , i do n't think my microphone is muted . sian gwenllian am: okay . i 'll move on to my question to kirsty williams . now , it is clear that any decisions that need to be taken on reopening schools would have to be made in the context of all of the other issues that the welsh government has to take into account . and it is entirely clear that the approach of government towards testing has n't been sufficiently developed for us to even start to think about removing restrictions . so , would n't it be dangerous , if truth be told , to start to discuss reopening schools when we have n't had the necessary testing in place for the majority of the population ? and does n't it convey a mixed message that we 're starting to relax some of these restrictions when , in reality , the restrictions are still in place and still need to be in place robustly ? kirsty williams am: first of all , thank you very much , siân , for that important question . can i be absolutely clear , and i thought i had been pretty clear in answering hefin david , that we are not relaxing any of the restrictions with regard to education ? as i said to hefin , it is not imminent that we would see a further phase in the next stage of education here in wales . what i have done today is to provide clarity on the nature of the principles that i would use when coming to any discussion . it is the responsibility of me , as the minister , and indeed of the wider government , to begin to think about planning for the future . but i have been absolutely clear : we are not moving to an imminent change in how education is operating at the moment . and i 'm also very , very clear that should we be given the opportunity to see more children in our schools , i will only do that when it is safe for me to do so , when i 've been advised by the cmo that i am able to do that , and we have given sufficient time and planning to the sector to respond . it is not going to be easy , and we will need to give them , as a sector , time to be able to address . but if i have not been clear enough , let me say it again : we are not relaxing any issues around schools at present , nor is that imminent . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , i think we can try going to you again now . suzy davies am: thank you . minister , in your consideration of introducing a phased return to school , in due course , have you taken into consideration how things like school absences are going to be managed ? because , regardless of the amount of good work you do on messaging , there will still be some families that do n't realise that going back to school is for their particular family . will there be a relaxation of , effectively , what we would call truancy rules ? or is that something that schools will be getting guidance on much up-front ? kirsty williams am: thank you , suzy . as i said in my statement earlier today , returning to school will not be a return to normal , and in recognition of this , i 've already made it clear that i will seek , in all opportunities , to reduce the burdens on school . that includes various data collection , the suspension of performance measures and removing the requirement to undertake literacy and numeracy testing , and , clearly , school attendance will want to be an important factor of that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . i 'm keen to go on now to talk about the current situation as being faced by our children and young people in schools with some questions from siân gwenllian . siân . sian gwenllian am: since yesterday , the welsh government has started publishing data on the number of schools that are open , the number of children attending those schools , and the number of staff involved , and they have been making this information available as per capita of the population . on average , i think it 's 1 per cent of the children of wales that actually attend these locations , and some 5 per cent of the staff . so , can you analyse those figures a little further ? can you tell us how many children , according to this data , are children of key workers , and how many are vulnerable children ? kirsty williams am: thank you very much , siân . as you quite rightly say , on average , we have 518 school hubs open each day , with up to 4,200 children attending . we have seen an increase in the number of attendances since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term . we have approximately 5.6 per cent of the teaching population working in those hubs , and at present , 85 per cent of the children who are attending are the children of key workers , the remainder being vulnerable children . so , we are now averaging 600 vulnerable children per day . these are small numbers , but we have seen an increase in those numbers since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term . sian gwenllian am: okay . i 'm sure we 'll return to that point a little later on . how much confidence do you therefore have that the arrangements are effective in terms of the safety of staff and children at these locations ? kirsty williams am: thank you once again for that . the smooth operation of the hubs , with regard to health and safety , is , of course , of paramount importance . what we have seen since schools closed for traditional statutory purposes and moving to their repurposed function—we have seen a change of pattern over time . so , following my announcement on , i believe , 18 march , the week after , we saw a large number of settings open and operating . as local authorities have been able to understand the demand for those places—from critical workers and vulnerable children—we have seen more local authorities move to a hub model , and we have been able to publish guidance to local authorities on how issues around safe working in those hubs should be followed , and we 've been able to give guidance in that regard . local authorities are asked by us to report any incidents where they are concerned about operation issues on the ground . sian gwenllian am: as i mentioned earlier , testing is crucially important in dealing with this crisis . so , how many school staff have been tested for covid because they may have experienced symptoms and so on ? and how many of those have tested positive ? kirsty williams am: my understanding from public health wales is that 15 teachers have been tested for covid-19 , and i believe two of those results have come back as positive . can i make it absolutely clear , the week before last , welsh government issued new guidance around who should be tested ? i want to make it absolutely clear to those professionals working in our hubs , if they or a member of their family are exhibiting any of the symptoms , however mild , of covid-19 , they can and they should be tested . sian gwenllian am: okay . and the final question from me on this : how important is testing going to be in this next phase , as you start to think about relaxing restrictions ? kirsty williams am: obviously , the ability to be able to test , to trace and to quarantine will be critical to the next phase and will be a very , very important and significant building block in all aspects of the government 's work to respond to this pandemic . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you , minister , and thank you , siân . we 've got some questions now on the impact on particular groups of children , from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . just following on from your answer to siân gwenllian earlier about the number of vulnerable children in school , what 's being done specifically to facilitate more of those children coming into a school setting or hub at the moment ? i 'm thinking about the 600 you 've talked about , and i know , in one of my local authority areas of merthyr , which is a very small authority , we 're talking about the number of children identified as vulnerable running into thousands , not hundreds , and that 's just in one authority . so , this is a particularly difficult issue to address , i appreciate , but how are we going to get more of these children into the hubs ? kirsty williams am: okay , dawn . the first thing to say is that the issue of vulnerable children attending settings is one that is a challenge to not just wales , but also to my colleagues in northern ireland , scotland and england . i 'm pleased to say that we are working across government departments—myself , obviously , and colleagues in education—with colleagues in social services to have a cross-government approach to these issues . i think the first thing to say is that these are complex messages , because the overriding public health message from our government has been to stay at home and children should be kept at home as much as possible , and to make sure that our hubs run smoothly , safely and effectively , we do need to limit the number of children who are attending those hubs . so , firstly , the fact that numbers are small is in some ways a success of our public health messages , because parents have been heeding those messages , but , of course , all of us will have concerns for some children who remain at home . so , i 'm pleased to say that we have seen a doubling in the last week of the number of children . so , although numbers are small , they have doubled over the course of the last week . we 're working with local authorities and they have assured us that children and young people with a social worker have been risk assessed on a multi-agency basis and are receiving support in a number of ways , and that includes having conversations about some of those children attending the hubs . they 're also looking to support in other ways . of course , some of our children who would be classed as vulnerable—and our definition of 'vulnerable ' is one that is shared between the systems in england and wales—could be children with a statement of special educational needs . for some of those children who , perhaps , have very intense health needs , actually , staying at home is the appropriate thing for that child and that family to do , and we 're looking to support families , and local authorities and local education systems are looking to support families , in a number of ways . we also know that just because you do n't have a social worker or a statement of special educational needs does not mean that a child may not be vulnerable , and schools are very aware of the needs of those children and have been carrying out regular telephone check-ins where they can—if the age of the child is appropriate—just to keep in touch with those families and those individual children . but we will continue to work across government to encourage , where it is appropriate , children to attend settings , and , if it is not appropriate for children to be in a setting , that there is contact with those children and young people to ensure that they remain , and their families remain , supported . dawn bowden am: thank you , minister . it 's encouraging to hear you talk about the ongoing safeguarding of children that are at home and i assume , within that , appropriate referral mechanisms are still in place if teachers or anybody has any particular concern about a child . similarly , with special educational needs , whereas some of those children benefit clearly from a one-to-one provision in a school , and they may not respond as well to remote working , or remote contact , with an sen advisor , are you considering in any way any relaxation of the lockdown rule in particular for those children in terms of them being able to access the support that they need for their particular educational needs ? kirsty williams am: well , first of all , dawn , you 're absolutely right : my expectation is that schools should remain in contact with children and continue to identify vulnerable children , and schools should continue to refer children to children 's services if they have any concerns , and that would also , of course , be the case for youth workers who may be keeping in contact with children . so , there is a professional expectation on all those that are working with our children and young people that , despite the circumstances they find themselves in , they should continue to report and refer cases if they see anything or hear or are told anything that makes them concerned about a child 's welfare and safety . with regard to children with additional learning needs , i am aware that that can present a number of challenges to families and children , and perhaps steve davies could give some further details . we have been keen to work with local authorities to ensure specialist provision , where that is appropriate—so , if i could give you an example of my own local authority in powys , they have two specialist centres available for children with more profound additional learning needs , and those centres are available—recognising , however , that , even with the provision of specialist hubs , it can be a challenge for some children with additional learning needs to find themselves outside of a routine . hubs are often staffed on a rota basis and therefore children could be faced with staff that they are unfamiliar with . so , even when local authorities—and the vast , vast majority of them do—have specialist services in place , sometimes that might not be the best thing for a child 's health and well-being . but perhaps steve can give us further details of the conversations that have been taking place with directors of education to ensure that children with additional learning needs have access to the hubs and specialist support . steve . steve davies: yes , myself and colleague albert heaney—colleague-director—have been in regular touch with directors of education and directors of social services to make sure that these children and young people 's needs are catered for . we are very aware of all of the special schools—profound and multiple learning difficulties , ebd schools and pupil referral units—that have been kept open in their own way , but also , in some cases , as hubs , to deliver those services for those children 's needs , and we 're pleased that the directors and the local authorities have responded so constructively . so , we have the details of every school that 's open , the pupils who are attending , and we are clear that the risk assessments that the minister referred to for children with special needs , as well as wider vulnerable groups—they are having risk assessments to make sure that , where there is a need identified for a pupil that is not currently attending a hub , then the local authority can be working with that child and with the parents . lynne neagle am: thank you , steve . dawn . dawn bowden am: thank you . just two more questions . one is around emotional and mental health difficulties being experienced by children and young people at the moment . now , there was a very welcome announcement of £1.25 million pounds for school counselling . how is that , in practical terms , being applied if those children are not actually in school ? kirsty williams am: you 're right , dawn : we have to consider how we can support children not only in their learning during this time , but also to recognise the very real impact that the pandemic will have on all of our mental health and well-being—recognising , of course , it is absolutely natural for all of us , including children and young people , to have fears and anxieties at this time . that 's a natural reaction to the situation that we find ourselves in . but , of course , there are issues around those children that would have currently been receiving school counselling , and also being able to be in a position to respond to a potential growth in the number of children that are receiving support . so , the additional money will be made available to local authorities to be able to increase and ramp up services to support children and families . in the immediacy , of course , that will have to be done in different ways than perhaps we 've traditionally delivered services in the past , because of social distancing and lockdown rules , but we want to get some of these systems in place now , rather than waiting for everything to go back to normal . we need to be able to plan to offer services in the here and now , but also be able to plan for what potentially could be an increase in the demand of those services . so , we 've been in close touch with local authorities , asking them what they believe that they will need and how they can use additional financial resources , and we 've been very pleased to be able to secure that for them . dawn bowden am: so , that would include things like telephone and video support as well , i guess , then . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . so , that would include remote counselling as in a fashion that we 're doing now , but also , as and when some of the restrictions are perhaps removed , looking at an enhanced family therapy , or a therapy approach . so , when we talk about counselling , i think it 's important to recognise that there will be some flexibility around this money and it does not necessarily mean that local authorities have to use it on a one-to-one basis . that might not be appropriate for some children , especially our younger children and their families , and they can use that money to provide counselling or therapy—in the widest possible terms—that is the best method to support individual children and their families . but , clearly , we 're having to do that in the confines of lockdown and social distancing at the moment . some of that money can also be used to support the professional learning and the professional development of counsellors , because , of course , they may be being asked to work in a different way and we need to make sure that they have the appropriate skills and abilities to do that . dawn bowden am: thank you . thank you , minister . lynne neagle am: dawn , before you ask your final question , i 've got a couple of supplementaries—firstly from suzy , and then from hefin . suzy davies am: oh , thank you . my question goes back to the comment you made earlier , minister , about the number of children doubling—sorry , vulnerable children doubling—after the easter break , if we can call it that . so , what i 'm after is a sense of churn in these establishments . so , was that figure a recovery of a number of children that had been there before the easter break , and are the people who are there still the same people as were there right at the beginning of the crisis and the lockdown ? kirsty williams am: suzy , what i believe that we 're seeing in our schools is new pupils coming into school . so , there has been , i know , a real effort on behalf of educationalists and social services staff to really reach out to families and to make sure that they 're aware of the support that is available out there for them and their children , and to be able to give them the confidence that there are—that the hubs are available for them . so , we have seen an increase in children . those numbers are still small and , i believe , potentially , there is an opportunity to build on that and to have further conversations with families about the support that is available for vulnerable children , whether that— . that vulnerability , of course , can cover a whole range of issues . as i said when we last met , this is a constantly evolving situation . the initial response—local authorities and schools worked incredibly fast and incredibly quickly to set up these hubs . we 've seen an evolution in the weeks since that time and i am sure that we will continue to see some evolution in approaches . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin , you had a supplementary—briefly , please . hefin david am: yes , very quickly . i 've been listening to the answers with regard to vulnerable children , following on from that answer . i 'm at home with a vulnerable child—a child who has got additional learning needs . she 's got autism ; she 's four . i imagine there are many , many parents in exactly the same position—i 've heard from them . i have n't heard anything from the school or from the local authority . should i have heard something or should i be proactive in pursuing it ? kirsty williams am: i do n't want to comment on personal cases— hefin david am: but there are many others in this position . kirsty williams am: —but what i would say is that if parents have concerns and want to have a conversation about what support is available to them and their children , they should contact their local education authority to have a conversation as to what support is available . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . dawn , final question , please . dawn bowden am: yes , my last question is really about the potential for the attainment gap between disadvantaged pupils and their more affluent peers . is that a concern for you ? i 'm thinking particularly in relation to those less affluent families in having access to technology and so on . what kind of concerns do you have about that and what are we looking to do to try to ensure that that does n't actually play out ? kirsty williams am: thank you , dawn . all of the statistics would tell us that learning loss and the gap , potentially , will affect those more vulnerable children the most . clearly , we will want to consider that as we think about what the new normal for education may look like , or as we develop into future phases . depending on where that child is in their educational journey , of course , the needs and the potential for loss are slightly different . so , for instance , when we 're thinking about very young children , we could be thinking about a lack of social interaction and the development of oracy skills . of course , that , potentially , then will have a knock-on to their ability to learn to read and then to write , for instance . for other children who are , perhaps , older and heading towards formal examinations , the challenge when they return to school will be a slightly different one . i 'm not sure , chair , whether you want me to give some further details about our continuity-of-learning plan and how we are looking to address digital disadvantage now , or whether there are questions later . lynne neagle am: well , i 've got a question on that coming up , so , if it 's okay , dawn , we 'll go on to that now . before we do that , i was just going to ask how the welsh government is paying due regard to the united nations convention on the rights of the child and , obviously , the right children and young people have to an education . i was going to ask you about the risk of inequality due to varying access to digital resources , which are so important in ensuring continuity of learning . kirsty williams am: you 're absolutely correct , chair . officials are very aware of our responsibilities towards children 's rights in this regard and we are doing whatever we can to ensure that children have an equal opportunity and have equal access to learning at this time . we are fortunate in the regard that , because of previous decisions and investments , we have a strong base on which to build because we have our hwb digital learning platform and because we have invested heavily in the national purchasing of microsoft office and google for education tools , which are available to all families . we have become the first , i think—we 're certainly the first in the uk , and i 'm not sure whether we 're the first across the world , but i think we probably are—to deploy , for instance , adobe spark nationally . but , obviously , access to hardware and connectivity is crucial at this time . officials are working with local authorities to ensure that all children have access to both the hardware and the connectivity they need to be able to participate in digital learning at this particular time . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . just a final question from me : how exactly are we communicating to parents what the expectations are of them in terms of delivering this education at home now ? are there , for example , guidelines on recommended hours of home learning per day of the week or volume of work to be completed ? how are we ensuring that parents know how best to lead their children through this at the moment ? kirsty williams am: firstly , can i recognise what a challenge this is ? we 've just heard from hefin who is carrying on his day job as the assembly member , but is obviously trying to do that as well as care for and provide learning for his children , and i know , chair , that you 're doing the same , and i 'm certainly trying to do the same , and it 's a real challenge , it 's not easy . as part of our 'stay safe . stay learning ' policy statement , advice is available to parents and carers on the hwb platform as to what they best can do to support their children . i think the really important message that i 've been trying to give to parents is not to be too hard on ourselves . i know that everybody is doing the best that they can in really challenging circumstances . and if they have concerns , they should be in contact with their child 's school , but we do have specific advice and guidance to parents on the hwb platform . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 're going to move on now to some questions on examinations from janet finch-saunders . janet , we ca n't hear you . i tell you what , we'll— . janet , do you want to try again ? no . okay , we 'll go on then to questions on higher education and post 16 , and we 'll come back to examinations , if that 's okay . suzy . suzy davies am: yes , thank you , chair . before we leave continuity of learning , do you mind if i just ask this one question ? lynne neagle am: no , that 's fine . yes , go on . suzy davies am: your comment , minister , on working with local authorities to make sure that individuals have hardware : can you just give us a bit of detail on what working with local authorities actually means ? in the process of that , is there any data gathering going on for those pupils who are being educated at home and the levels at which they 're engaging ? you know , are they sticking with it , or how many are dropping out ? because i think the two of those perhaps go together . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . so , i 'm hoping to make an announcement tomorrow , if not later on this week , about some specific details around support for hardware and connectivity . we 're working closely with local authorities to understand just that : to understand from the schools the number of schools that—and a number of them have already done this—have been lending chromebooks , ipads and laptops to children , and also identifying children who are not perhaps engaging in the activities that have been made available . and we 'll be doing two things to support local authorities . the first is to use the stock of equipment that they already have to be able to provide hardware to students . so , we have purchased on a national basis software that , when applied to an old piece of kit , essentially turns it into an out-of-the-box chromebook . because , as you can imagine , just like other things during a pandemic , there has been a rush to buy new stuff on the market and then there is a scramble and nobody can get what they need . so , we 're utilisng kit that is already available in schools and local authorities , and we will look to backfill that to schools at a later point out of our edtech investment programme . the other issue is , once a child has a chromebook or a laptop or a device , issues around connectivity . so , we 're also looking to purchase on a national level and distribute mi-fi connectivity , so students will be able to have access to wi-fi where they do n't have that already . that 's why we need to work closely with local authorities and schools to identify the level of that need and to make sure the stuff gets to the right children . one of the ways in which we are able to do that is to look at engagement in education . so , if a child has n't been engaging , is that because they just do n't want to and they 're voting with their feet—but clearly teachers need to have a conversation about that—or is that because the child simply does not have the ability to do that , and therefore we need to get that stuff out to those children ? so , rather than just simply leaving it to local authorities to scramble around in a very crowded market to get the stuff that they will need , we 're trying to do that on a national basis and deploy that to local authorities . so , our officials have been having conversations with each of our local authorities to ascertain what 's already happened , and there is very good practice out there—schools have been proactive—but where there are gaps , what can we do as a national government to be able to assist them to do that ? we are repurposing some of the resources that we had previously identified for our edtech investment , using those resources to fill this particular gap . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 're going to go back to janet now . i believe we 've got sound again , so janet can ask her questions on examinations . janet . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . i thought it was something at this end ; i 'm glad to hear it was n't . when will vocational learners know what is happening with their assessments , and how will those who have no choice but to wait for a vocational assessment be supported ? kirsty williams am: okay . that 's a very good question , janet , because i know that there has been some concern and anxiety around vocational qualification students and how quickly we 've been able to provide certainty for them . you 'll be aware that qualifications wales have been able , in the last week , to be able to give that greater clarity . so , they have announced that learners due to complete their essential skills wales qualifications will receive results . they have also published their approach to how health and social care qualifications will be managed , because , of course , those are part of the first set of reformed quals that we have done on a wales basis . you are right , there are a group of students who fall into the category where there are technical qualifications that require a certificate of competency to be industry ready—i hope i 've explained that correctly—and , therefore , we are working to understand how we can accommodate those students in these particular circumstances . but , at this stage , there may be some delay for that element of their qualification being delayed to a further date . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: yes . what are your expectations for how a-level and gcse qualifications will be awarded this summer , following the ministerial direction that you have issued to qualifications wales ? for example , how is an appropriate balance being taken between recognising the progress of pupils in their coursework , mock examinations , and other work to date , and also , the potential of pupils who might have performed particularly well in their examinations this summer ? kirsty williams am: well , janet , i understand—and today is a day where some students would have been undertaking practical examinations—i understand how devastating it has been to both students and teachers alike for the decision i had to take to cancel this summer 's exam series . but i 'm absolutely clear that was the only decision that could have been reached . qualifications wales has made it very clear—and for people who would like more information , i would urge them to look at qualifications wales 's website—how they will go about giving , allocating , and awarding a grade to our a-level and gcse students . firstly , teachers will be asked to submit a grade they believe that student would have obtained , should they have taken an exam . and , of course , teachers will have a range of data and their own professional judgment that they will use in awarding that grade . teachers will also be asked to rank students in order . once that information has been submitted to qualifications wales , there will be a process by which that data will be moderated ; moderated from centre to centre and across the nation , thus giving us the chance to award a student a fair grade whilst being , and remaining , true to ensuring that we have a robust qualifications system , and allowing those students who find themselves at a critical stage of their education , where they are looking to move on to the next stages—that they will have the grades that will allow them to make decisions about their future . janet finch-saunders am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you , janet . we 're going to go on now , then , to the questions on higher and further education from suzy davies . suzy . suzy davies am: thank you , chair . i suppose my first question just goes back to the 16-year-olds at the moment and those who are looking forward to either going to college , the older ones going to university , there 'll be apprenticeships , all kinds of future pathways for post 16. what 's happening at school level , or even at college level , to get those students ready for the next steps , because , obviously , they 're not in their usual environments and getting their usual programme of teaching ? kirsty williams am: no , that 's quite right , suzy , and i should have said in answer to janet 's question , as well—i 'm sure people already know , but just to get the point across—that a-level results day and gcse day will run as normal across not just wales , but england , wales and northern ireland , which is really important . you 're right , suzy—for those people that are coming to the end of one part of their education this is a particularly challenging time . you 'll be aware that , last week , on hwb , we were able to launch a programme for year 13 students to help them get ready for university . i 'm very grateful to the he sector in wales , who 've worked really hard with us on that . so , for instance , if you were a year 13 student or even a year 12 student that was thinking about or interested in areas around social policy , you could have tuned into a social policy lecturer at swansea university . if you go to the hwb website , you will be able to see that there are subject listings , everything from animal science through to law , politics , history and science , with links through to higher education and further education courses that students can avail themselves of . there 's also a section on preparation for essential study skills , whether that is report writing or academic writing . so , there is a range of activities and courses available for year 13 , so that children—'children ' ; they 're all children to me—young people can get themselves— . they do n't have to stop learning , and they can get themselves ready for the next stage of their education . again , for those children , perhaps , who are coming to the end of their gcses , there is a range of information , either within their own schools or within their local colleges about things that can keep them learning . so , for instance , i 'm aware of one school where you can go onto the website and there are recommendations of , for instance , what you could be reading over the summer if you 're interested in doing this particular a-level in september . i know that there are also moves in schools and in colleges to be able to make sure that those children do n't miss out on really important careers advice at this time , as well , and information , so they can make informed decisions . i know that people are working hard to link up children to advice services that are available so that they can make those really important future decisions with the advice of either a teacher or other professional so that they 've got those options . so , there is material out there and it 's growing all the time . this week , we were able to launch our virtual seren network . you 'll be aware that , for the last couple of years , we 've been able to send welsh children to the yale global summer school . clearly , that ca n't happen this year . that 's devastating for those year 12s who had worked so hard and had won a place on that programme . they will now be able to attend the yale global scholars programme virtually and remotely , because yale have moved that programme online . so , we 're developing materials and resources all of the time . suzy davies am: thank you for that answer . before i move on to my next question , can you give me some sort of sense of how that hwb domain is being populated ? where is all this information being sourced from ? presumably , they 'll be working with partners , but what does that look like ? kirsty williams am: oh , my goodness . yes , absolutely— suzy davies am: [ inaudible . ] kirsty williams am: yes , we 're working very hard . so , everything from our work with the bbc , for instance , and bbc bitesize through to our fe colleges and our he institutions , as well as other organisations in the third sector who are looking to provide those opportunities . can i just say that , last week , we were looking at , every day , in the region of well over 150,000 logins a day into hwb ? suzy davies am: well , that 's great . so there 's proactive populating of hwb . that 's what i was after . that 's great . just going back to some of janet 's questions and the assessed grades , i want to talk to you about the unconditional offers and where we are with that at the moment for entry to universities , because there 's going to be a scramble now of the available students for further education , but primarily higher education institutions , across the uk . is the moratorium on unconditional offers still standing ? are there conversations going on to extend that moratorium ? otherwise , this scramble is going to potentially negatively affect our universities quite considerably . kirsty williams am: yes , you 'll be aware that a moratorium does exist . it exists in this current context to 1 may . we continue to keep in close touch with colleagues in northern ireland , scotland and in the westminster government around these issues . officials are also in touch with ucas , and in the last couple of days i 've had at least three meetings with representatives of the welsh higher education sector to discuss these matters . suzy davies am: i just want to ask you now about students and their maintenance loan grants . i think they 're getting , around now , the money going into their bank account that they would normally have expected at this time of year . that 's right , yes ? kirsty williams am: that 's correct , yes . suzy davies am: what 's happening to those students who would normally be living in digs somewhere but are now living at home ? are they likely to be asked to reimburse part of the cost , because obviously it 's not as expensive to live at home as away , and what 's likely to be happening with the maintenance loans over the summer holiday period , potentially ? because we 've had a period now where students ca n't top up their maintenance loans by going out and working on weekends or working in the evenings , or whatever , so their income has been impacted . just in the round , what kind of conversations are happening around that ? again , it 's probably a four-nation approach , i would imagine . kirsty williams am: thank you , suzy . you are correct to say that our student support regime does allow for a lower payment to be made to those students that stay at home during their studies , but i want to reassure students that there will be no change to their student support payments just because they have left their universities and have decided to go home . there should be no change . also , we are continuing , it should be important to say , to pay education maintenance allowance at this time for our fe students that are eligible for that , even though , obviously , for ema there is an attendance requirement , but clearly that is not appropriate to enforce at the moment . you are correct—this is a worrying time for many students in higher education , especially for those who are looking to graduate at this time and are going out into an economy that has been tremendously badly hit by the pandemic . at this time , we continue to have conversations with nus wales about what can be done within a welsh context , but , as you quite rightly say , also within a uk context , to support students who may have been affected . we are continuing—on our webpage we have a frequently asked questions section that advises students in the first instance , especially when it comes , for instance , to the cost of accommodation—to have those discussions , and i 'm very grateful that , in some cases , some of our institutions have been able to waive or partially waive accommodation fees where students have vacated their accommodation and have returned to their usual home address . but we will continue to have dialogue with nus wales and with our counterparts across the country to look to see what more we can do to support students at this time . suzy davies am: thank you for that answer , and , yes , i was pleased to see that announcement through the nus as well , so well done to those accommodation providers who have a heart . i think we 'll all have seen the universities uk document that explains some of the difficulties that they 're going to be running into if this proceeds much further . my understanding is that the main emphasis at the moment is to try and get all the universities across the uk through this initial period of difficulty by releasing as much money as possible . i can see that your figure to the higher education funding council for wales was a little bit down on last year 's letter—not that there 's been a remit letter yet , but an indication . are you releasing that money earlier so that they can use it more swiftly , or does that not matter ? lynne neagle am: before you come in , minister , that is going to have to be the last question , just to make you aware of that , because we are coming up to the end of our time . suzy davies am: okay . that 's fine . kirsty williams am: of course , suzy , we are working closely with universities wales and have a lot of sympathy for the proposals that have come forward from universities uk , which wales 's universities have been a part of forming . stability in the first instance is really important to us , which is why we 've been able to give an indication to hefcw about resources that are available , and we 've been very clear to hefcw that we want to be as flexible as possible in how they use those resources to support institutions . that potentially would mean reprofiling the way in which money gets out to institutions , but clearly we will need to have an ongoing discussion about how we respond to the immediacy of the issues facing he , how we can get stability for the next academic year , and how we then can support the sector through what is a really challenging time for them . we will do that in a welsh context and we will continue to do that also in a uk context , because you will have seen the scale of some of the figures that have been talked about in terms of the impact on the he sector at this time . clearly , a four-nation approach to that will be crucial . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . well , we have come to the end of our time , and , as to anything that we did n't ask , we will have to write to the minister . can i just thank the minister and her officials for your attendance today ? we know how busy you are dealing with the pandemic and we very much welcome this opportunity to have this discussion with you . so , thank you , minister and officials for your time . as usual , you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . diolch yn fawr . kirsty williams am: diolch yn fawr , chair . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then . can i propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? okay . i see that members are content , so we will now proceed to meet in private .

sian gwenllian am introduced that according to the welsh government , currently 1 percent of the children of wales and some 5 percent of the staff actually attended the schools . kirsty williams am added that on average , there were 518 school hubs open each day , with up to 4,200 children attending . there has been an increase in the number of attendances since the summer term and there were approximately 5.6 per cent of the teaching population working in those hubs . the overall education situation seemed positive , with 600 vulnerable children averaging per day .

what did kirsty williams am say about the education challenges as being faced by schools and the related methods to assure safety ? </s> lynne neagle am: good afternoon , everyone . welcome to the first virtual meeting of the children , young people and education committee . in accordance with standing order 34.19 , i determine that the public are excluded from the committee 's meeting , in order to protect public health . in accordance with standing order 34.21 , notice of this decision was included in the agenda for this meeting , which was published last friday . this meeting is , however , being broadcast live on senedd.tv , with all participants joining via video conference . a record of the proceedings will be published as usual . aside from the procedural adaptation relating to conducting proceedings remotely , all other standing order requirements for committees remain in place . the meeting is bilingual , and simultaneous translation from welsh to english is available . can i remind all participants that the microphones will be controlled centrally , so there 's no need to turn them on and off individually ? can i ask whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . thank you . can i just then , again , note for the record that , if , for any reason , i drop out of the meeting , the committee has agreed that dawn bowden am will temporarily chair while i try to rejoin ? item 2 , then , this afternoon is an evidence session with the welsh government on the impact of the coronavirus epidemic on education in wales . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams am , minister for education , steve davies , director of the education directorate , and huw morris , who is group director , skills , higher education and lifelong learning . can i welcome you all and thank you for attending ? minister , i understand you 'd like to make a short opening statement . kirsty williams am: thank you very much , lynne . and indeed , if i could just begin by , once again , putting on the record my gratitude to everyone who is helping us get through this pandemic . there are a vast number of people who are keeping our school hubs open , looking after vulnerable children , and the children of key workers . because of them , and their efforts , those key workers are able to carry on their critical roles in responding to covid-19 . i am extremely proud of the way that members of the school community have gone above and beyond . they have kept their schools open out of hours , over the weekends , on bank holidays , and easter . and it is really heartening and humbling to see the way that they have responded to this crisis . and there are teachers , teaching assistants , and many others , who are helping our children and their parents to keep learning at home . i know that home schooling is n't easy , so i want to say also thank you to parents and carers for their efforts at this time . by keeping their children at home , they are helping us to keep people safe , and reducing pressure on our education system , and on our nhs . be in no doubt , we are facing many challenges because of this pandemic . my primary concern is , and always will be , the health and well-being of our children , of our young people , and of all the staff in our education settings . and i am very grateful to everyone who is supporting us in these endeavours . thank you very much—diolch yn fawr . and i 'm now happy to answer questions that members of the committee may have this afternoon . lynne neagle am: thank you very much , minister . i 'm sure that the committee echoes the heartfelt thanks you have just given then . the first questions we 've got this afternoon are from hefin david . hefin david am: good afternoon , minister . with regard to your five principles , which you 've set out today , regarding when schools will reopen , they 're very clear that they require a judgment from you . so could you outline when you think that schools might reopen ? kirsty williams am: thank you , hefin . i am very clear that schools will move to a new phase—because , already , schools are open in many settings ; we will move to a new phase when it is safe to do so and when i have advice from the chief medical officer and the chief scientific officer that it is safe to do so . i have made very clear in my statement that that is not imminent . i know that in some cases there has been speculation that a return to normal could be with us quite shortly . i 'm clear that a return to normal is not imminent , and therefore i 'm not in a position to give a date as to when we will see more schools opening up to more children . hefin david am: have you been given any indication at all by the chief medical officer as to when , in the longer term , it might be ? kirsty williams am: no , i have not been given a date . what i have done today is publish the principles that will aid me in , as you said , me making a decision . so , clearly , we will be relying on the advice of our medical and scientific advisers , but the principles are very clear . firstly , we will need to consider any decision to have more children returning to school in the context of the safety and the physical and the emotional well-being of children and young people and the staff . obviously , i ca n't make a decision regarding education in isolation . it will have to be taken in the context of the wider welsh government response to dealing with this pandemic . thirdly , it is absolutely crucial in making any decisions that we have clearly communicated that to parents and to staff , on the information that we have used to reach any decisions , to build confidence for parents and professionals , but also to give them time to plan . it will be impossible to move quickly to new ways of working . and we also have to look at—and it 's been paraphrased quite a lot today—if we are looking at certain groups of children accessing more education within a school setting , which groups they should be . and , finally , how do we operationalise that ? how do we make those settings as safe as they possibly can be , and how do we tackle some of the difficult challenges of everything from ensuring that we have adequate numbers of workforce available , to the very real questions about how you would do social distancing in the context of education , school transport issues , how you would avoid people gathering at the school gate , for instance ? so , there are very practical issues that would need to be considered and thought through very , very carefully before we could return , before what we could see is a move from where we are now to the next phase of education , and new approaches to what schooling may look like . but , again , i must be absolutely clear to you , members of the committee , and to people watching : it is not feasible , in this sense , that we would move from where we are now to what all of us would regard as normal education and what the operation of schools looked like before the start of this pandemic . hefin david am: so , what is clear from what you 've said is that it 's going to be phased return . i would assume that would be the most vulnerable—perhaps additional learning needs pupils would return first . just reading some of the things that you 've said today , can you answer that question ? and can i also ask : you said that guiding principle no . 3 will be having the confidence of parents , staff and students , based on evidence and information , so they can plan ahead . what will that evidence and information be , and how will you know that you 've got the confidence of parents to return ? kirsty williams am: well , as i said , primarily , we will need to take a lead from our scientific and medical advisers . i want to also say that we are obviously working on a four-nation basis and keeping in very close contact with my counterparts in northern ireland , scotland and england . but we 're also looking beyond the united kingdom to approaches to education in the face of this pandemic . members are aware that we as a nation are a member of the atlantic rim collaboratory . so , recently i was able to talk to educationalists and ministers in iceland , other parts of europe , north america , south america and australia . so , we 're also looking at best international evidence in this regard . and , clearly , we will need to be very clear , as today is an attempt to be very clear with parents and our teaching professionals , and the unions that represent them , about the basis of that evidence . hefin david am: and could i just ask , with regard to the principles , do they then apply to further education and universities ? kirsty williams am: well , of course , when we are discussing these challenges , we are doing that with our colleagues in both the school sector but also our colleagues in the fe sector , and we 're in close contact with colleagues in higher education to share thinking on these matters . hefin david am: but these principles do n't apply in those circumstances ; these are principles for schools only . kirsty williams am: these principles are applying to both , and our work in this area is applying to both schools and fe colleges . clearly , universities , as independent institutions , we would n't be able to dictate to . but i want to be absolutely clear : we are working with representatives of the he sector to include them in this work . and i have received , not assurances , but from discussions that i 've had with universities wales and vice-chancellors , they are very keen to be kept apprised of these approaches , because they may well wish to implement something similar within their own institutions . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got a couple of supplementaries now ; firstly , from suzy davies , and then i 'm going to go to siân gwenllian . suzy . no , we ca n't hear suzy . suzy ? no . i 'll go to siân , then , and then i 'll come back to suzy . siân . hefin david am: chair , i do n't think my microphone is muted . sian gwenllian am: okay . i 'll move on to my question to kirsty williams . now , it is clear that any decisions that need to be taken on reopening schools would have to be made in the context of all of the other issues that the welsh government has to take into account . and it is entirely clear that the approach of government towards testing has n't been sufficiently developed for us to even start to think about removing restrictions . so , would n't it be dangerous , if truth be told , to start to discuss reopening schools when we have n't had the necessary testing in place for the majority of the population ? and does n't it convey a mixed message that we 're starting to relax some of these restrictions when , in reality , the restrictions are still in place and still need to be in place robustly ? kirsty williams am: first of all , thank you very much , siân , for that important question . can i be absolutely clear , and i thought i had been pretty clear in answering hefin david , that we are not relaxing any of the restrictions with regard to education ? as i said to hefin , it is not imminent that we would see a further phase in the next stage of education here in wales . what i have done today is to provide clarity on the nature of the principles that i would use when coming to any discussion . it is the responsibility of me , as the minister , and indeed of the wider government , to begin to think about planning for the future . but i have been absolutely clear : we are not moving to an imminent change in how education is operating at the moment . and i 'm also very , very clear that should we be given the opportunity to see more children in our schools , i will only do that when it is safe for me to do so , when i 've been advised by the cmo that i am able to do that , and we have given sufficient time and planning to the sector to respond . it is not going to be easy , and we will need to give them , as a sector , time to be able to address . but if i have not been clear enough , let me say it again : we are not relaxing any issues around schools at present , nor is that imminent . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , i think we can try going to you again now . suzy davies am: thank you . minister , in your consideration of introducing a phased return to school , in due course , have you taken into consideration how things like school absences are going to be managed ? because , regardless of the amount of good work you do on messaging , there will still be some families that do n't realise that going back to school is for their particular family . will there be a relaxation of , effectively , what we would call truancy rules ? or is that something that schools will be getting guidance on much up-front ? kirsty williams am: thank you , suzy . as i said in my statement earlier today , returning to school will not be a return to normal , and in recognition of this , i 've already made it clear that i will seek , in all opportunities , to reduce the burdens on school . that includes various data collection , the suspension of performance measures and removing the requirement to undertake literacy and numeracy testing , and , clearly , school attendance will want to be an important factor of that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . i 'm keen to go on now to talk about the current situation as being faced by our children and young people in schools with some questions from siân gwenllian . siân . sian gwenllian am: since yesterday , the welsh government has started publishing data on the number of schools that are open , the number of children attending those schools , and the number of staff involved , and they have been making this information available as per capita of the population . on average , i think it 's 1 per cent of the children of wales that actually attend these locations , and some 5 per cent of the staff . so , can you analyse those figures a little further ? can you tell us how many children , according to this data , are children of key workers , and how many are vulnerable children ? kirsty williams am: thank you very much , siân . as you quite rightly say , on average , we have 518 school hubs open each day , with up to 4,200 children attending . we have seen an increase in the number of attendances since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term . we have approximately 5.6 per cent of the teaching population working in those hubs , and at present , 85 per cent of the children who are attending are the children of key workers , the remainder being vulnerable children . so , we are now averaging 600 vulnerable children per day . these are small numbers , but we have seen an increase in those numbers since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term . sian gwenllian am: okay . i 'm sure we 'll return to that point a little later on . how much confidence do you therefore have that the arrangements are effective in terms of the safety of staff and children at these locations ? kirsty williams am: thank you once again for that . the smooth operation of the hubs , with regard to health and safety , is , of course , of paramount importance . what we have seen since schools closed for traditional statutory purposes and moving to their repurposed function—we have seen a change of pattern over time . so , following my announcement on , i believe , 18 march , the week after , we saw a large number of settings open and operating . as local authorities have been able to understand the demand for those places—from critical workers and vulnerable children—we have seen more local authorities move to a hub model , and we have been able to publish guidance to local authorities on how issues around safe working in those hubs should be followed , and we 've been able to give guidance in that regard . local authorities are asked by us to report any incidents where they are concerned about operation issues on the ground . sian gwenllian am: as i mentioned earlier , testing is crucially important in dealing with this crisis . so , how many school staff have been tested for covid because they may have experienced symptoms and so on ? and how many of those have tested positive ? kirsty williams am: my understanding from public health wales is that 15 teachers have been tested for covid-19 , and i believe two of those results have come back as positive . can i make it absolutely clear , the week before last , welsh government issued new guidance around who should be tested ? i want to make it absolutely clear to those professionals working in our hubs , if they or a member of their family are exhibiting any of the symptoms , however mild , of covid-19 , they can and they should be tested . sian gwenllian am: okay . and the final question from me on this : how important is testing going to be in this next phase , as you start to think about relaxing restrictions ? kirsty williams am: obviously , the ability to be able to test , to trace and to quarantine will be critical to the next phase and will be a very , very important and significant building block in all aspects of the government 's work to respond to this pandemic . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you , minister , and thank you , siân . we 've got some questions now on the impact on particular groups of children , from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . just following on from your answer to siân gwenllian earlier about the number of vulnerable children in school , what 's being done specifically to facilitate more of those children coming into a school setting or hub at the moment ? i 'm thinking about the 600 you 've talked about , and i know , in one of my local authority areas of merthyr , which is a very small authority , we 're talking about the number of children identified as vulnerable running into thousands , not hundreds , and that 's just in one authority . so , this is a particularly difficult issue to address , i appreciate , but how are we going to get more of these children into the hubs ? kirsty williams am: okay , dawn . the first thing to say is that the issue of vulnerable children attending settings is one that is a challenge to not just wales , but also to my colleagues in northern ireland , scotland and england . i 'm pleased to say that we are working across government departments—myself , obviously , and colleagues in education—with colleagues in social services to have a cross-government approach to these issues . i think the first thing to say is that these are complex messages , because the overriding public health message from our government has been to stay at home and children should be kept at home as much as possible , and to make sure that our hubs run smoothly , safely and effectively , we do need to limit the number of children who are attending those hubs . so , firstly , the fact that numbers are small is in some ways a success of our public health messages , because parents have been heeding those messages , but , of course , all of us will have concerns for some children who remain at home . so , i 'm pleased to say that we have seen a doubling in the last week of the number of children . so , although numbers are small , they have doubled over the course of the last week . we 're working with local authorities and they have assured us that children and young people with a social worker have been risk assessed on a multi-agency basis and are receiving support in a number of ways , and that includes having conversations about some of those children attending the hubs . they 're also looking to support in other ways . of course , some of our children who would be classed as vulnerable—and our definition of 'vulnerable ' is one that is shared between the systems in england and wales—could be children with a statement of special educational needs . for some of those children who , perhaps , have very intense health needs , actually , staying at home is the appropriate thing for that child and that family to do , and we 're looking to support families , and local authorities and local education systems are looking to support families , in a number of ways . we also know that just because you do n't have a social worker or a statement of special educational needs does not mean that a child may not be vulnerable , and schools are very aware of the needs of those children and have been carrying out regular telephone check-ins where they can—if the age of the child is appropriate—just to keep in touch with those families and those individual children . but we will continue to work across government to encourage , where it is appropriate , children to attend settings , and , if it is not appropriate for children to be in a setting , that there is contact with those children and young people to ensure that they remain , and their families remain , supported . dawn bowden am: thank you , minister . it 's encouraging to hear you talk about the ongoing safeguarding of children that are at home and i assume , within that , appropriate referral mechanisms are still in place if teachers or anybody has any particular concern about a child . similarly , with special educational needs , whereas some of those children benefit clearly from a one-to-one provision in a school , and they may not respond as well to remote working , or remote contact , with an sen advisor , are you considering in any way any relaxation of the lockdown rule in particular for those children in terms of them being able to access the support that they need for their particular educational needs ? kirsty williams am: well , first of all , dawn , you 're absolutely right : my expectation is that schools should remain in contact with children and continue to identify vulnerable children , and schools should continue to refer children to children 's services if they have any concerns , and that would also , of course , be the case for youth workers who may be keeping in contact with children . so , there is a professional expectation on all those that are working with our children and young people that , despite the circumstances they find themselves in , they should continue to report and refer cases if they see anything or hear or are told anything that makes them concerned about a child 's welfare and safety . with regard to children with additional learning needs , i am aware that that can present a number of challenges to families and children , and perhaps steve davies could give some further details . we have been keen to work with local authorities to ensure specialist provision , where that is appropriate—so , if i could give you an example of my own local authority in powys , they have two specialist centres available for children with more profound additional learning needs , and those centres are available—recognising , however , that , even with the provision of specialist hubs , it can be a challenge for some children with additional learning needs to find themselves outside of a routine . hubs are often staffed on a rota basis and therefore children could be faced with staff that they are unfamiliar with . so , even when local authorities—and the vast , vast majority of them do—have specialist services in place , sometimes that might not be the best thing for a child 's health and well-being . but perhaps steve can give us further details of the conversations that have been taking place with directors of education to ensure that children with additional learning needs have access to the hubs and specialist support . steve . steve davies: yes , myself and colleague albert heaney—colleague-director—have been in regular touch with directors of education and directors of social services to make sure that these children and young people 's needs are catered for . we are very aware of all of the special schools—profound and multiple learning difficulties , ebd schools and pupil referral units—that have been kept open in their own way , but also , in some cases , as hubs , to deliver those services for those children 's needs , and we 're pleased that the directors and the local authorities have responded so constructively . so , we have the details of every school that 's open , the pupils who are attending , and we are clear that the risk assessments that the minister referred to for children with special needs , as well as wider vulnerable groups—they are having risk assessments to make sure that , where there is a need identified for a pupil that is not currently attending a hub , then the local authority can be working with that child and with the parents . lynne neagle am: thank you , steve . dawn . dawn bowden am: thank you . just two more questions . one is around emotional and mental health difficulties being experienced by children and young people at the moment . now , there was a very welcome announcement of £1.25 million pounds for school counselling . how is that , in practical terms , being applied if those children are not actually in school ? kirsty williams am: you 're right , dawn : we have to consider how we can support children not only in their learning during this time , but also to recognise the very real impact that the pandemic will have on all of our mental health and well-being—recognising , of course , it is absolutely natural for all of us , including children and young people , to have fears and anxieties at this time . that 's a natural reaction to the situation that we find ourselves in . but , of course , there are issues around those children that would have currently been receiving school counselling , and also being able to be in a position to respond to a potential growth in the number of children that are receiving support . so , the additional money will be made available to local authorities to be able to increase and ramp up services to support children and families . in the immediacy , of course , that will have to be done in different ways than perhaps we 've traditionally delivered services in the past , because of social distancing and lockdown rules , but we want to get some of these systems in place now , rather than waiting for everything to go back to normal . we need to be able to plan to offer services in the here and now , but also be able to plan for what potentially could be an increase in the demand of those services . so , we 've been in close touch with local authorities , asking them what they believe that they will need and how they can use additional financial resources , and we 've been very pleased to be able to secure that for them . dawn bowden am: so , that would include things like telephone and video support as well , i guess , then . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . so , that would include remote counselling as in a fashion that we 're doing now , but also , as and when some of the restrictions are perhaps removed , looking at an enhanced family therapy , or a therapy approach . so , when we talk about counselling , i think it 's important to recognise that there will be some flexibility around this money and it does not necessarily mean that local authorities have to use it on a one-to-one basis . that might not be appropriate for some children , especially our younger children and their families , and they can use that money to provide counselling or therapy—in the widest possible terms—that is the best method to support individual children and their families . but , clearly , we 're having to do that in the confines of lockdown and social distancing at the moment . some of that money can also be used to support the professional learning and the professional development of counsellors , because , of course , they may be being asked to work in a different way and we need to make sure that they have the appropriate skills and abilities to do that . dawn bowden am: thank you . thank you , minister . lynne neagle am: dawn , before you ask your final question , i 've got a couple of supplementaries—firstly from suzy , and then from hefin . suzy davies am: oh , thank you . my question goes back to the comment you made earlier , minister , about the number of children doubling—sorry , vulnerable children doubling—after the easter break , if we can call it that . so , what i 'm after is a sense of churn in these establishments . so , was that figure a recovery of a number of children that had been there before the easter break , and are the people who are there still the same people as were there right at the beginning of the crisis and the lockdown ? kirsty williams am: suzy , what i believe that we 're seeing in our schools is new pupils coming into school . so , there has been , i know , a real effort on behalf of educationalists and social services staff to really reach out to families and to make sure that they 're aware of the support that is available out there for them and their children , and to be able to give them the confidence that there are—that the hubs are available for them . so , we have seen an increase in children . those numbers are still small and , i believe , potentially , there is an opportunity to build on that and to have further conversations with families about the support that is available for vulnerable children , whether that— . that vulnerability , of course , can cover a whole range of issues . as i said when we last met , this is a constantly evolving situation . the initial response—local authorities and schools worked incredibly fast and incredibly quickly to set up these hubs . we 've seen an evolution in the weeks since that time and i am sure that we will continue to see some evolution in approaches . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin , you had a supplementary—briefly , please . hefin david am: yes , very quickly . i 've been listening to the answers with regard to vulnerable children , following on from that answer . i 'm at home with a vulnerable child—a child who has got additional learning needs . she 's got autism ; she 's four . i imagine there are many , many parents in exactly the same position—i 've heard from them . i have n't heard anything from the school or from the local authority . should i have heard something or should i be proactive in pursuing it ? kirsty williams am: i do n't want to comment on personal cases— hefin david am: but there are many others in this position . kirsty williams am: —but what i would say is that if parents have concerns and want to have a conversation about what support is available to them and their children , they should contact their local education authority to have a conversation as to what support is available . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . dawn , final question , please . dawn bowden am: yes , my last question is really about the potential for the attainment gap between disadvantaged pupils and their more affluent peers . is that a concern for you ? i 'm thinking particularly in relation to those less affluent families in having access to technology and so on . what kind of concerns do you have about that and what are we looking to do to try to ensure that that does n't actually play out ? kirsty williams am: thank you , dawn . all of the statistics would tell us that learning loss and the gap , potentially , will affect those more vulnerable children the most . clearly , we will want to consider that as we think about what the new normal for education may look like , or as we develop into future phases . depending on where that child is in their educational journey , of course , the needs and the potential for loss are slightly different . so , for instance , when we 're thinking about very young children , we could be thinking about a lack of social interaction and the development of oracy skills . of course , that , potentially , then will have a knock-on to their ability to learn to read and then to write , for instance . for other children who are , perhaps , older and heading towards formal examinations , the challenge when they return to school will be a slightly different one . i 'm not sure , chair , whether you want me to give some further details about our continuity-of-learning plan and how we are looking to address digital disadvantage now , or whether there are questions later . lynne neagle am: well , i 've got a question on that coming up , so , if it 's okay , dawn , we 'll go on to that now . before we do that , i was just going to ask how the welsh government is paying due regard to the united nations convention on the rights of the child and , obviously , the right children and young people have to an education . i was going to ask you about the risk of inequality due to varying access to digital resources , which are so important in ensuring continuity of learning . kirsty williams am: you 're absolutely correct , chair . officials are very aware of our responsibilities towards children 's rights in this regard and we are doing whatever we can to ensure that children have an equal opportunity and have equal access to learning at this time . we are fortunate in the regard that , because of previous decisions and investments , we have a strong base on which to build because we have our hwb digital learning platform and because we have invested heavily in the national purchasing of microsoft office and google for education tools , which are available to all families . we have become the first , i think—we 're certainly the first in the uk , and i 'm not sure whether we 're the first across the world , but i think we probably are—to deploy , for instance , adobe spark nationally . but , obviously , access to hardware and connectivity is crucial at this time . officials are working with local authorities to ensure that all children have access to both the hardware and the connectivity they need to be able to participate in digital learning at this particular time . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . just a final question from me : how exactly are we communicating to parents what the expectations are of them in terms of delivering this education at home now ? are there , for example , guidelines on recommended hours of home learning per day of the week or volume of work to be completed ? how are we ensuring that parents know how best to lead their children through this at the moment ? kirsty williams am: firstly , can i recognise what a challenge this is ? we 've just heard from hefin who is carrying on his day job as the assembly member , but is obviously trying to do that as well as care for and provide learning for his children , and i know , chair , that you 're doing the same , and i 'm certainly trying to do the same , and it 's a real challenge , it 's not easy . as part of our 'stay safe . stay learning ' policy statement , advice is available to parents and carers on the hwb platform as to what they best can do to support their children . i think the really important message that i 've been trying to give to parents is not to be too hard on ourselves . i know that everybody is doing the best that they can in really challenging circumstances . and if they have concerns , they should be in contact with their child 's school , but we do have specific advice and guidance to parents on the hwb platform . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 're going to move on now to some questions on examinations from janet finch-saunders . janet , we ca n't hear you . i tell you what , we'll— . janet , do you want to try again ? no . okay , we 'll go on then to questions on higher education and post 16 , and we 'll come back to examinations , if that 's okay . suzy . suzy davies am: yes , thank you , chair . before we leave continuity of learning , do you mind if i just ask this one question ? lynne neagle am: no , that 's fine . yes , go on . suzy davies am: your comment , minister , on working with local authorities to make sure that individuals have hardware : can you just give us a bit of detail on what working with local authorities actually means ? in the process of that , is there any data gathering going on for those pupils who are being educated at home and the levels at which they 're engaging ? you know , are they sticking with it , or how many are dropping out ? because i think the two of those perhaps go together . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . so , i 'm hoping to make an announcement tomorrow , if not later on this week , about some specific details around support for hardware and connectivity . we 're working closely with local authorities to understand just that : to understand from the schools the number of schools that—and a number of them have already done this—have been lending chromebooks , ipads and laptops to children , and also identifying children who are not perhaps engaging in the activities that have been made available . and we 'll be doing two things to support local authorities . the first is to use the stock of equipment that they already have to be able to provide hardware to students . so , we have purchased on a national basis software that , when applied to an old piece of kit , essentially turns it into an out-of-the-box chromebook . because , as you can imagine , just like other things during a pandemic , there has been a rush to buy new stuff on the market and then there is a scramble and nobody can get what they need . so , we 're utilisng kit that is already available in schools and local authorities , and we will look to backfill that to schools at a later point out of our edtech investment programme . the other issue is , once a child has a chromebook or a laptop or a device , issues around connectivity . so , we 're also looking to purchase on a national level and distribute mi-fi connectivity , so students will be able to have access to wi-fi where they do n't have that already . that 's why we need to work closely with local authorities and schools to identify the level of that need and to make sure the stuff gets to the right children . one of the ways in which we are able to do that is to look at engagement in education . so , if a child has n't been engaging , is that because they just do n't want to and they 're voting with their feet—but clearly teachers need to have a conversation about that—or is that because the child simply does not have the ability to do that , and therefore we need to get that stuff out to those children ? so , rather than just simply leaving it to local authorities to scramble around in a very crowded market to get the stuff that they will need , we 're trying to do that on a national basis and deploy that to local authorities . so , our officials have been having conversations with each of our local authorities to ascertain what 's already happened , and there is very good practice out there—schools have been proactive—but where there are gaps , what can we do as a national government to be able to assist them to do that ? we are repurposing some of the resources that we had previously identified for our edtech investment , using those resources to fill this particular gap . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 're going to go back to janet now . i believe we 've got sound again , so janet can ask her questions on examinations . janet . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . i thought it was something at this end ; i 'm glad to hear it was n't . when will vocational learners know what is happening with their assessments , and how will those who have no choice but to wait for a vocational assessment be supported ? kirsty williams am: okay . that 's a very good question , janet , because i know that there has been some concern and anxiety around vocational qualification students and how quickly we 've been able to provide certainty for them . you 'll be aware that qualifications wales have been able , in the last week , to be able to give that greater clarity . so , they have announced that learners due to complete their essential skills wales qualifications will receive results . they have also published their approach to how health and social care qualifications will be managed , because , of course , those are part of the first set of reformed quals that we have done on a wales basis . you are right , there are a group of students who fall into the category where there are technical qualifications that require a certificate of competency to be industry ready—i hope i 've explained that correctly—and , therefore , we are working to understand how we can accommodate those students in these particular circumstances . but , at this stage , there may be some delay for that element of their qualification being delayed to a further date . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: yes . what are your expectations for how a-level and gcse qualifications will be awarded this summer , following the ministerial direction that you have issued to qualifications wales ? for example , how is an appropriate balance being taken between recognising the progress of pupils in their coursework , mock examinations , and other work to date , and also , the potential of pupils who might have performed particularly well in their examinations this summer ? kirsty williams am: well , janet , i understand—and today is a day where some students would have been undertaking practical examinations—i understand how devastating it has been to both students and teachers alike for the decision i had to take to cancel this summer 's exam series . but i 'm absolutely clear that was the only decision that could have been reached . qualifications wales has made it very clear—and for people who would like more information , i would urge them to look at qualifications wales 's website—how they will go about giving , allocating , and awarding a grade to our a-level and gcse students . firstly , teachers will be asked to submit a grade they believe that student would have obtained , should they have taken an exam . and , of course , teachers will have a range of data and their own professional judgment that they will use in awarding that grade . teachers will also be asked to rank students in order . once that information has been submitted to qualifications wales , there will be a process by which that data will be moderated ; moderated from centre to centre and across the nation , thus giving us the chance to award a student a fair grade whilst being , and remaining , true to ensuring that we have a robust qualifications system , and allowing those students who find themselves at a critical stage of their education , where they are looking to move on to the next stages—that they will have the grades that will allow them to make decisions about their future . janet finch-saunders am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you , janet . we 're going to go on now , then , to the questions on higher and further education from suzy davies . suzy . suzy davies am: thank you , chair . i suppose my first question just goes back to the 16-year-olds at the moment and those who are looking forward to either going to college , the older ones going to university , there 'll be apprenticeships , all kinds of future pathways for post 16. what 's happening at school level , or even at college level , to get those students ready for the next steps , because , obviously , they 're not in their usual environments and getting their usual programme of teaching ? kirsty williams am: no , that 's quite right , suzy , and i should have said in answer to janet 's question , as well—i 'm sure people already know , but just to get the point across—that a-level results day and gcse day will run as normal across not just wales , but england , wales and northern ireland , which is really important . you 're right , suzy—for those people that are coming to the end of one part of their education this is a particularly challenging time . you 'll be aware that , last week , on hwb , we were able to launch a programme for year 13 students to help them get ready for university . i 'm very grateful to the he sector in wales , who 've worked really hard with us on that . so , for instance , if you were a year 13 student or even a year 12 student that was thinking about or interested in areas around social policy , you could have tuned into a social policy lecturer at swansea university . if you go to the hwb website , you will be able to see that there are subject listings , everything from animal science through to law , politics , history and science , with links through to higher education and further education courses that students can avail themselves of . there 's also a section on preparation for essential study skills , whether that is report writing or academic writing . so , there is a range of activities and courses available for year 13 , so that children—'children ' ; they 're all children to me—young people can get themselves— . they do n't have to stop learning , and they can get themselves ready for the next stage of their education . again , for those children , perhaps , who are coming to the end of their gcses , there is a range of information , either within their own schools or within their local colleges about things that can keep them learning . so , for instance , i 'm aware of one school where you can go onto the website and there are recommendations of , for instance , what you could be reading over the summer if you 're interested in doing this particular a-level in september . i know that there are also moves in schools and in colleges to be able to make sure that those children do n't miss out on really important careers advice at this time , as well , and information , so they can make informed decisions . i know that people are working hard to link up children to advice services that are available so that they can make those really important future decisions with the advice of either a teacher or other professional so that they 've got those options . so , there is material out there and it 's growing all the time . this week , we were able to launch our virtual seren network . you 'll be aware that , for the last couple of years , we 've been able to send welsh children to the yale global summer school . clearly , that ca n't happen this year . that 's devastating for those year 12s who had worked so hard and had won a place on that programme . they will now be able to attend the yale global scholars programme virtually and remotely , because yale have moved that programme online . so , we 're developing materials and resources all of the time . suzy davies am: thank you for that answer . before i move on to my next question , can you give me some sort of sense of how that hwb domain is being populated ? where is all this information being sourced from ? presumably , they 'll be working with partners , but what does that look like ? kirsty williams am: oh , my goodness . yes , absolutely— suzy davies am: [ inaudible . ] kirsty williams am: yes , we 're working very hard . so , everything from our work with the bbc , for instance , and bbc bitesize through to our fe colleges and our he institutions , as well as other organisations in the third sector who are looking to provide those opportunities . can i just say that , last week , we were looking at , every day , in the region of well over 150,000 logins a day into hwb ? suzy davies am: well , that 's great . so there 's proactive populating of hwb . that 's what i was after . that 's great . just going back to some of janet 's questions and the assessed grades , i want to talk to you about the unconditional offers and where we are with that at the moment for entry to universities , because there 's going to be a scramble now of the available students for further education , but primarily higher education institutions , across the uk . is the moratorium on unconditional offers still standing ? are there conversations going on to extend that moratorium ? otherwise , this scramble is going to potentially negatively affect our universities quite considerably . kirsty williams am: yes , you 'll be aware that a moratorium does exist . it exists in this current context to 1 may . we continue to keep in close touch with colleagues in northern ireland , scotland and in the westminster government around these issues . officials are also in touch with ucas , and in the last couple of days i 've had at least three meetings with representatives of the welsh higher education sector to discuss these matters . suzy davies am: i just want to ask you now about students and their maintenance loan grants . i think they 're getting , around now , the money going into their bank account that they would normally have expected at this time of year . that 's right , yes ? kirsty williams am: that 's correct , yes . suzy davies am: what 's happening to those students who would normally be living in digs somewhere but are now living at home ? are they likely to be asked to reimburse part of the cost , because obviously it 's not as expensive to live at home as away , and what 's likely to be happening with the maintenance loans over the summer holiday period , potentially ? because we 've had a period now where students ca n't top up their maintenance loans by going out and working on weekends or working in the evenings , or whatever , so their income has been impacted . just in the round , what kind of conversations are happening around that ? again , it 's probably a four-nation approach , i would imagine . kirsty williams am: thank you , suzy . you are correct to say that our student support regime does allow for a lower payment to be made to those students that stay at home during their studies , but i want to reassure students that there will be no change to their student support payments just because they have left their universities and have decided to go home . there should be no change . also , we are continuing , it should be important to say , to pay education maintenance allowance at this time for our fe students that are eligible for that , even though , obviously , for ema there is an attendance requirement , but clearly that is not appropriate to enforce at the moment . you are correct—this is a worrying time for many students in higher education , especially for those who are looking to graduate at this time and are going out into an economy that has been tremendously badly hit by the pandemic . at this time , we continue to have conversations with nus wales about what can be done within a welsh context , but , as you quite rightly say , also within a uk context , to support students who may have been affected . we are continuing—on our webpage we have a frequently asked questions section that advises students in the first instance , especially when it comes , for instance , to the cost of accommodation—to have those discussions , and i 'm very grateful that , in some cases , some of our institutions have been able to waive or partially waive accommodation fees where students have vacated their accommodation and have returned to their usual home address . but we will continue to have dialogue with nus wales and with our counterparts across the country to look to see what more we can do to support students at this time . suzy davies am: thank you for that answer , and , yes , i was pleased to see that announcement through the nus as well , so well done to those accommodation providers who have a heart . i think we 'll all have seen the universities uk document that explains some of the difficulties that they 're going to be running into if this proceeds much further . my understanding is that the main emphasis at the moment is to try and get all the universities across the uk through this initial period of difficulty by releasing as much money as possible . i can see that your figure to the higher education funding council for wales was a little bit down on last year 's letter—not that there 's been a remit letter yet , but an indication . are you releasing that money earlier so that they can use it more swiftly , or does that not matter ? lynne neagle am: before you come in , minister , that is going to have to be the last question , just to make you aware of that , because we are coming up to the end of our time . suzy davies am: okay . that 's fine . kirsty williams am: of course , suzy , we are working closely with universities wales and have a lot of sympathy for the proposals that have come forward from universities uk , which wales 's universities have been a part of forming . stability in the first instance is really important to us , which is why we 've been able to give an indication to hefcw about resources that are available , and we 've been very clear to hefcw that we want to be as flexible as possible in how they use those resources to support institutions . that potentially would mean reprofiling the way in which money gets out to institutions , but clearly we will need to have an ongoing discussion about how we respond to the immediacy of the issues facing he , how we can get stability for the next academic year , and how we then can support the sector through what is a really challenging time for them . we will do that in a welsh context and we will continue to do that also in a uk context , because you will have seen the scale of some of the figures that have been talked about in terms of the impact on the he sector at this time . clearly , a four-nation approach to that will be crucial . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . well , we have come to the end of our time , and , as to anything that we did n't ask , we will have to write to the minister . can i just thank the minister and her officials for your attendance today ? we know how busy you are dealing with the pandemic and we very much welcome this opportunity to have this discussion with you . so , thank you , minister and officials for your time . as usual , you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . diolch yn fawr . kirsty williams am: diolch yn fawr , chair . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then . can i propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? okay . i see that members are content , so we will now proceed to meet in private .

to answer sian gwenllian am 's question , kirsty williams am mentioned that to include more critical workers and vulnerable students , more local authorities had been advised to move to a hub model , and the education ministry office had been able to publish guidance to local authorities on how issues around safe working in those hubs should be followed . local authorities are asked to report any incidents where they were concerned about operation issues on the ground . kirsty williams am also agreed with sian gwenllian am that testing was crucially important in dealing with this crisis and the ability to be able to test , to trace and to quarantine would be critical to the next phase .

what did the meeting discuss about the impact on particular children with intense need ? </s> lynne neagle am: good afternoon , everyone . welcome to the first virtual meeting of the children , young people and education committee . in accordance with standing order 34.19 , i determine that the public are excluded from the committee 's meeting , in order to protect public health . in accordance with standing order 34.21 , notice of this decision was included in the agenda for this meeting , which was published last friday . this meeting is , however , being broadcast live on senedd.tv , with all participants joining via video conference . a record of the proceedings will be published as usual . aside from the procedural adaptation relating to conducting proceedings remotely , all other standing order requirements for committees remain in place . the meeting is bilingual , and simultaneous translation from welsh to english is available . can i remind all participants that the microphones will be controlled centrally , so there 's no need to turn them on and off individually ? can i ask whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . thank you . can i just then , again , note for the record that , if , for any reason , i drop out of the meeting , the committee has agreed that dawn bowden am will temporarily chair while i try to rejoin ? item 2 , then , this afternoon is an evidence session with the welsh government on the impact of the coronavirus epidemic on education in wales . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams am , minister for education , steve davies , director of the education directorate , and huw morris , who is group director , skills , higher education and lifelong learning . can i welcome you all and thank you for attending ? minister , i understand you 'd like to make a short opening statement . kirsty williams am: thank you very much , lynne . and indeed , if i could just begin by , once again , putting on the record my gratitude to everyone who is helping us get through this pandemic . there are a vast number of people who are keeping our school hubs open , looking after vulnerable children , and the children of key workers . because of them , and their efforts , those key workers are able to carry on their critical roles in responding to covid-19 . i am extremely proud of the way that members of the school community have gone above and beyond . they have kept their schools open out of hours , over the weekends , on bank holidays , and easter . and it is really heartening and humbling to see the way that they have responded to this crisis . and there are teachers , teaching assistants , and many others , who are helping our children and their parents to keep learning at home . i know that home schooling is n't easy , so i want to say also thank you to parents and carers for their efforts at this time . by keeping their children at home , they are helping us to keep people safe , and reducing pressure on our education system , and on our nhs . be in no doubt , we are facing many challenges because of this pandemic . my primary concern is , and always will be , the health and well-being of our children , of our young people , and of all the staff in our education settings . and i am very grateful to everyone who is supporting us in these endeavours . thank you very much—diolch yn fawr . and i 'm now happy to answer questions that members of the committee may have this afternoon . lynne neagle am: thank you very much , minister . i 'm sure that the committee echoes the heartfelt thanks you have just given then . the first questions we 've got this afternoon are from hefin david . hefin david am: good afternoon , minister . with regard to your five principles , which you 've set out today , regarding when schools will reopen , they 're very clear that they require a judgment from you . so could you outline when you think that schools might reopen ? kirsty williams am: thank you , hefin . i am very clear that schools will move to a new phase—because , already , schools are open in many settings ; we will move to a new phase when it is safe to do so and when i have advice from the chief medical officer and the chief scientific officer that it is safe to do so . i have made very clear in my statement that that is not imminent . i know that in some cases there has been speculation that a return to normal could be with us quite shortly . i 'm clear that a return to normal is not imminent , and therefore i 'm not in a position to give a date as to when we will see more schools opening up to more children . hefin david am: have you been given any indication at all by the chief medical officer as to when , in the longer term , it might be ? kirsty williams am: no , i have not been given a date . what i have done today is publish the principles that will aid me in , as you said , me making a decision . so , clearly , we will be relying on the advice of our medical and scientific advisers , but the principles are very clear . firstly , we will need to consider any decision to have more children returning to school in the context of the safety and the physical and the emotional well-being of children and young people and the staff . obviously , i ca n't make a decision regarding education in isolation . it will have to be taken in the context of the wider welsh government response to dealing with this pandemic . thirdly , it is absolutely crucial in making any decisions that we have clearly communicated that to parents and to staff , on the information that we have used to reach any decisions , to build confidence for parents and professionals , but also to give them time to plan . it will be impossible to move quickly to new ways of working . and we also have to look at—and it 's been paraphrased quite a lot today—if we are looking at certain groups of children accessing more education within a school setting , which groups they should be . and , finally , how do we operationalise that ? how do we make those settings as safe as they possibly can be , and how do we tackle some of the difficult challenges of everything from ensuring that we have adequate numbers of workforce available , to the very real questions about how you would do social distancing in the context of education , school transport issues , how you would avoid people gathering at the school gate , for instance ? so , there are very practical issues that would need to be considered and thought through very , very carefully before we could return , before what we could see is a move from where we are now to the next phase of education , and new approaches to what schooling may look like . but , again , i must be absolutely clear to you , members of the committee , and to people watching : it is not feasible , in this sense , that we would move from where we are now to what all of us would regard as normal education and what the operation of schools looked like before the start of this pandemic . hefin david am: so , what is clear from what you 've said is that it 's going to be phased return . i would assume that would be the most vulnerable—perhaps additional learning needs pupils would return first . just reading some of the things that you 've said today , can you answer that question ? and can i also ask : you said that guiding principle no . 3 will be having the confidence of parents , staff and students , based on evidence and information , so they can plan ahead . what will that evidence and information be , and how will you know that you 've got the confidence of parents to return ? kirsty williams am: well , as i said , primarily , we will need to take a lead from our scientific and medical advisers . i want to also say that we are obviously working on a four-nation basis and keeping in very close contact with my counterparts in northern ireland , scotland and england . but we 're also looking beyond the united kingdom to approaches to education in the face of this pandemic . members are aware that we as a nation are a member of the atlantic rim collaboratory . so , recently i was able to talk to educationalists and ministers in iceland , other parts of europe , north america , south america and australia . so , we 're also looking at best international evidence in this regard . and , clearly , we will need to be very clear , as today is an attempt to be very clear with parents and our teaching professionals , and the unions that represent them , about the basis of that evidence . hefin david am: and could i just ask , with regard to the principles , do they then apply to further education and universities ? kirsty williams am: well , of course , when we are discussing these challenges , we are doing that with our colleagues in both the school sector but also our colleagues in the fe sector , and we 're in close contact with colleagues in higher education to share thinking on these matters . hefin david am: but these principles do n't apply in those circumstances ; these are principles for schools only . kirsty williams am: these principles are applying to both , and our work in this area is applying to both schools and fe colleges . clearly , universities , as independent institutions , we would n't be able to dictate to . but i want to be absolutely clear : we are working with representatives of the he sector to include them in this work . and i have received , not assurances , but from discussions that i 've had with universities wales and vice-chancellors , they are very keen to be kept apprised of these approaches , because they may well wish to implement something similar within their own institutions . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got a couple of supplementaries now ; firstly , from suzy davies , and then i 'm going to go to siân gwenllian . suzy . no , we ca n't hear suzy . suzy ? no . i 'll go to siân , then , and then i 'll come back to suzy . siân . hefin david am: chair , i do n't think my microphone is muted . sian gwenllian am: okay . i 'll move on to my question to kirsty williams . now , it is clear that any decisions that need to be taken on reopening schools would have to be made in the context of all of the other issues that the welsh government has to take into account . and it is entirely clear that the approach of government towards testing has n't been sufficiently developed for us to even start to think about removing restrictions . so , would n't it be dangerous , if truth be told , to start to discuss reopening schools when we have n't had the necessary testing in place for the majority of the population ? and does n't it convey a mixed message that we 're starting to relax some of these restrictions when , in reality , the restrictions are still in place and still need to be in place robustly ? kirsty williams am: first of all , thank you very much , siân , for that important question . can i be absolutely clear , and i thought i had been pretty clear in answering hefin david , that we are not relaxing any of the restrictions with regard to education ? as i said to hefin , it is not imminent that we would see a further phase in the next stage of education here in wales . what i have done today is to provide clarity on the nature of the principles that i would use when coming to any discussion . it is the responsibility of me , as the minister , and indeed of the wider government , to begin to think about planning for the future . but i have been absolutely clear : we are not moving to an imminent change in how education is operating at the moment . and i 'm also very , very clear that should we be given the opportunity to see more children in our schools , i will only do that when it is safe for me to do so , when i 've been advised by the cmo that i am able to do that , and we have given sufficient time and planning to the sector to respond . it is not going to be easy , and we will need to give them , as a sector , time to be able to address . but if i have not been clear enough , let me say it again : we are not relaxing any issues around schools at present , nor is that imminent . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , i think we can try going to you again now . suzy davies am: thank you . minister , in your consideration of introducing a phased return to school , in due course , have you taken into consideration how things like school absences are going to be managed ? because , regardless of the amount of good work you do on messaging , there will still be some families that do n't realise that going back to school is for their particular family . will there be a relaxation of , effectively , what we would call truancy rules ? or is that something that schools will be getting guidance on much up-front ? kirsty williams am: thank you , suzy . as i said in my statement earlier today , returning to school will not be a return to normal , and in recognition of this , i 've already made it clear that i will seek , in all opportunities , to reduce the burdens on school . that includes various data collection , the suspension of performance measures and removing the requirement to undertake literacy and numeracy testing , and , clearly , school attendance will want to be an important factor of that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . i 'm keen to go on now to talk about the current situation as being faced by our children and young people in schools with some questions from siân gwenllian . siân . sian gwenllian am: since yesterday , the welsh government has started publishing data on the number of schools that are open , the number of children attending those schools , and the number of staff involved , and they have been making this information available as per capita of the population . on average , i think it 's 1 per cent of the children of wales that actually attend these locations , and some 5 per cent of the staff . so , can you analyse those figures a little further ? can you tell us how many children , according to this data , are children of key workers , and how many are vulnerable children ? kirsty williams am: thank you very much , siân . as you quite rightly say , on average , we have 518 school hubs open each day , with up to 4,200 children attending . we have seen an increase in the number of attendances since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term . we have approximately 5.6 per cent of the teaching population working in those hubs , and at present , 85 per cent of the children who are attending are the children of key workers , the remainder being vulnerable children . so , we are now averaging 600 vulnerable children per day . these are small numbers , but we have seen an increase in those numbers since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term . sian gwenllian am: okay . i 'm sure we 'll return to that point a little later on . how much confidence do you therefore have that the arrangements are effective in terms of the safety of staff and children at these locations ? kirsty williams am: thank you once again for that . the smooth operation of the hubs , with regard to health and safety , is , of course , of paramount importance . what we have seen since schools closed for traditional statutory purposes and moving to their repurposed function—we have seen a change of pattern over time . so , following my announcement on , i believe , 18 march , the week after , we saw a large number of settings open and operating . as local authorities have been able to understand the demand for those places—from critical workers and vulnerable children—we have seen more local authorities move to a hub model , and we have been able to publish guidance to local authorities on how issues around safe working in those hubs should be followed , and we 've been able to give guidance in that regard . local authorities are asked by us to report any incidents where they are concerned about operation issues on the ground . sian gwenllian am: as i mentioned earlier , testing is crucially important in dealing with this crisis . so , how many school staff have been tested for covid because they may have experienced symptoms and so on ? and how many of those have tested positive ? kirsty williams am: my understanding from public health wales is that 15 teachers have been tested for covid-19 , and i believe two of those results have come back as positive . can i make it absolutely clear , the week before last , welsh government issued new guidance around who should be tested ? i want to make it absolutely clear to those professionals working in our hubs , if they or a member of their family are exhibiting any of the symptoms , however mild , of covid-19 , they can and they should be tested . sian gwenllian am: okay . and the final question from me on this : how important is testing going to be in this next phase , as you start to think about relaxing restrictions ? kirsty williams am: obviously , the ability to be able to test , to trace and to quarantine will be critical to the next phase and will be a very , very important and significant building block in all aspects of the government 's work to respond to this pandemic . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you , minister , and thank you , siân . we 've got some questions now on the impact on particular groups of children , from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . just following on from your answer to siân gwenllian earlier about the number of vulnerable children in school , what 's being done specifically to facilitate more of those children coming into a school setting or hub at the moment ? i 'm thinking about the 600 you 've talked about , and i know , in one of my local authority areas of merthyr , which is a very small authority , we 're talking about the number of children identified as vulnerable running into thousands , not hundreds , and that 's just in one authority . so , this is a particularly difficult issue to address , i appreciate , but how are we going to get more of these children into the hubs ? kirsty williams am: okay , dawn . the first thing to say is that the issue of vulnerable children attending settings is one that is a challenge to not just wales , but also to my colleagues in northern ireland , scotland and england . i 'm pleased to say that we are working across government departments—myself , obviously , and colleagues in education—with colleagues in social services to have a cross-government approach to these issues . i think the first thing to say is that these are complex messages , because the overriding public health message from our government has been to stay at home and children should be kept at home as much as possible , and to make sure that our hubs run smoothly , safely and effectively , we do need to limit the number of children who are attending those hubs . so , firstly , the fact that numbers are small is in some ways a success of our public health messages , because parents have been heeding those messages , but , of course , all of us will have concerns for some children who remain at home . so , i 'm pleased to say that we have seen a doubling in the last week of the number of children . so , although numbers are small , they have doubled over the course of the last week . we 're working with local authorities and they have assured us that children and young people with a social worker have been risk assessed on a multi-agency basis and are receiving support in a number of ways , and that includes having conversations about some of those children attending the hubs . they 're also looking to support in other ways . of course , some of our children who would be classed as vulnerable—and our definition of 'vulnerable ' is one that is shared between the systems in england and wales—could be children with a statement of special educational needs . for some of those children who , perhaps , have very intense health needs , actually , staying at home is the appropriate thing for that child and that family to do , and we 're looking to support families , and local authorities and local education systems are looking to support families , in a number of ways . we also know that just because you do n't have a social worker or a statement of special educational needs does not mean that a child may not be vulnerable , and schools are very aware of the needs of those children and have been carrying out regular telephone check-ins where they can—if the age of the child is appropriate—just to keep in touch with those families and those individual children . but we will continue to work across government to encourage , where it is appropriate , children to attend settings , and , if it is not appropriate for children to be in a setting , that there is contact with those children and young people to ensure that they remain , and their families remain , supported . dawn bowden am: thank you , minister . it 's encouraging to hear you talk about the ongoing safeguarding of children that are at home and i assume , within that , appropriate referral mechanisms are still in place if teachers or anybody has any particular concern about a child . similarly , with special educational needs , whereas some of those children benefit clearly from a one-to-one provision in a school , and they may not respond as well to remote working , or remote contact , with an sen advisor , are you considering in any way any relaxation of the lockdown rule in particular for those children in terms of them being able to access the support that they need for their particular educational needs ? kirsty williams am: well , first of all , dawn , you 're absolutely right : my expectation is that schools should remain in contact with children and continue to identify vulnerable children , and schools should continue to refer children to children 's services if they have any concerns , and that would also , of course , be the case for youth workers who may be keeping in contact with children . so , there is a professional expectation on all those that are working with our children and young people that , despite the circumstances they find themselves in , they should continue to report and refer cases if they see anything or hear or are told anything that makes them concerned about a child 's welfare and safety . with regard to children with additional learning needs , i am aware that that can present a number of challenges to families and children , and perhaps steve davies could give some further details . we have been keen to work with local authorities to ensure specialist provision , where that is appropriate—so , if i could give you an example of my own local authority in powys , they have two specialist centres available for children with more profound additional learning needs , and those centres are available—recognising , however , that , even with the provision of specialist hubs , it can be a challenge for some children with additional learning needs to find themselves outside of a routine . hubs are often staffed on a rota basis and therefore children could be faced with staff that they are unfamiliar with . so , even when local authorities—and the vast , vast majority of them do—have specialist services in place , sometimes that might not be the best thing for a child 's health and well-being . but perhaps steve can give us further details of the conversations that have been taking place with directors of education to ensure that children with additional learning needs have access to the hubs and specialist support . steve . steve davies: yes , myself and colleague albert heaney—colleague-director—have been in regular touch with directors of education and directors of social services to make sure that these children and young people 's needs are catered for . we are very aware of all of the special schools—profound and multiple learning difficulties , ebd schools and pupil referral units—that have been kept open in their own way , but also , in some cases , as hubs , to deliver those services for those children 's needs , and we 're pleased that the directors and the local authorities have responded so constructively . so , we have the details of every school that 's open , the pupils who are attending , and we are clear that the risk assessments that the minister referred to for children with special needs , as well as wider vulnerable groups—they are having risk assessments to make sure that , where there is a need identified for a pupil that is not currently attending a hub , then the local authority can be working with that child and with the parents . lynne neagle am: thank you , steve . dawn . dawn bowden am: thank you . just two more questions . one is around emotional and mental health difficulties being experienced by children and young people at the moment . now , there was a very welcome announcement of £1.25 million pounds for school counselling . how is that , in practical terms , being applied if those children are not actually in school ? kirsty williams am: you 're right , dawn : we have to consider how we can support children not only in their learning during this time , but also to recognise the very real impact that the pandemic will have on all of our mental health and well-being—recognising , of course , it is absolutely natural for all of us , including children and young people , to have fears and anxieties at this time . that 's a natural reaction to the situation that we find ourselves in . but , of course , there are issues around those children that would have currently been receiving school counselling , and also being able to be in a position to respond to a potential growth in the number of children that are receiving support . so , the additional money will be made available to local authorities to be able to increase and ramp up services to support children and families . in the immediacy , of course , that will have to be done in different ways than perhaps we 've traditionally delivered services in the past , because of social distancing and lockdown rules , but we want to get some of these systems in place now , rather than waiting for everything to go back to normal . we need to be able to plan to offer services in the here and now , but also be able to plan for what potentially could be an increase in the demand of those services . so , we 've been in close touch with local authorities , asking them what they believe that they will need and how they can use additional financial resources , and we 've been very pleased to be able to secure that for them . dawn bowden am: so , that would include things like telephone and video support as well , i guess , then . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . so , that would include remote counselling as in a fashion that we 're doing now , but also , as and when some of the restrictions are perhaps removed , looking at an enhanced family therapy , or a therapy approach . so , when we talk about counselling , i think it 's important to recognise that there will be some flexibility around this money and it does not necessarily mean that local authorities have to use it on a one-to-one basis . that might not be appropriate for some children , especially our younger children and their families , and they can use that money to provide counselling or therapy—in the widest possible terms—that is the best method to support individual children and their families . but , clearly , we 're having to do that in the confines of lockdown and social distancing at the moment . some of that money can also be used to support the professional learning and the professional development of counsellors , because , of course , they may be being asked to work in a different way and we need to make sure that they have the appropriate skills and abilities to do that . dawn bowden am: thank you . thank you , minister . lynne neagle am: dawn , before you ask your final question , i 've got a couple of supplementaries—firstly from suzy , and then from hefin . suzy davies am: oh , thank you . my question goes back to the comment you made earlier , minister , about the number of children doubling—sorry , vulnerable children doubling—after the easter break , if we can call it that . so , what i 'm after is a sense of churn in these establishments . so , was that figure a recovery of a number of children that had been there before the easter break , and are the people who are there still the same people as were there right at the beginning of the crisis and the lockdown ? kirsty williams am: suzy , what i believe that we 're seeing in our schools is new pupils coming into school . so , there has been , i know , a real effort on behalf of educationalists and social services staff to really reach out to families and to make sure that they 're aware of the support that is available out there for them and their children , and to be able to give them the confidence that there are—that the hubs are available for them . so , we have seen an increase in children . those numbers are still small and , i believe , potentially , there is an opportunity to build on that and to have further conversations with families about the support that is available for vulnerable children , whether that— . that vulnerability , of course , can cover a whole range of issues . as i said when we last met , this is a constantly evolving situation . the initial response—local authorities and schools worked incredibly fast and incredibly quickly to set up these hubs . we 've seen an evolution in the weeks since that time and i am sure that we will continue to see some evolution in approaches . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin , you had a supplementary—briefly , please . hefin david am: yes , very quickly . i 've been listening to the answers with regard to vulnerable children , following on from that answer . i 'm at home with a vulnerable child—a child who has got additional learning needs . she 's got autism ; she 's four . i imagine there are many , many parents in exactly the same position—i 've heard from them . i have n't heard anything from the school or from the local authority . should i have heard something or should i be proactive in pursuing it ? kirsty williams am: i do n't want to comment on personal cases— hefin david am: but there are many others in this position . kirsty williams am: —but what i would say is that if parents have concerns and want to have a conversation about what support is available to them and their children , they should contact their local education authority to have a conversation as to what support is available . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . dawn , final question , please . dawn bowden am: yes , my last question is really about the potential for the attainment gap between disadvantaged pupils and their more affluent peers . is that a concern for you ? i 'm thinking particularly in relation to those less affluent families in having access to technology and so on . what kind of concerns do you have about that and what are we looking to do to try to ensure that that does n't actually play out ? kirsty williams am: thank you , dawn . all of the statistics would tell us that learning loss and the gap , potentially , will affect those more vulnerable children the most . clearly , we will want to consider that as we think about what the new normal for education may look like , or as we develop into future phases . depending on where that child is in their educational journey , of course , the needs and the potential for loss are slightly different . so , for instance , when we 're thinking about very young children , we could be thinking about a lack of social interaction and the development of oracy skills . of course , that , potentially , then will have a knock-on to their ability to learn to read and then to write , for instance . for other children who are , perhaps , older and heading towards formal examinations , the challenge when they return to school will be a slightly different one . i 'm not sure , chair , whether you want me to give some further details about our continuity-of-learning plan and how we are looking to address digital disadvantage now , or whether there are questions later . lynne neagle am: well , i 've got a question on that coming up , so , if it 's okay , dawn , we 'll go on to that now . before we do that , i was just going to ask how the welsh government is paying due regard to the united nations convention on the rights of the child and , obviously , the right children and young people have to an education . i was going to ask you about the risk of inequality due to varying access to digital resources , which are so important in ensuring continuity of learning . kirsty williams am: you 're absolutely correct , chair . officials are very aware of our responsibilities towards children 's rights in this regard and we are doing whatever we can to ensure that children have an equal opportunity and have equal access to learning at this time . we are fortunate in the regard that , because of previous decisions and investments , we have a strong base on which to build because we have our hwb digital learning platform and because we have invested heavily in the national purchasing of microsoft office and google for education tools , which are available to all families . we have become the first , i think—we 're certainly the first in the uk , and i 'm not sure whether we 're the first across the world , but i think we probably are—to deploy , for instance , adobe spark nationally . but , obviously , access to hardware and connectivity is crucial at this time . officials are working with local authorities to ensure that all children have access to both the hardware and the connectivity they need to be able to participate in digital learning at this particular time . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . just a final question from me : how exactly are we communicating to parents what the expectations are of them in terms of delivering this education at home now ? are there , for example , guidelines on recommended hours of home learning per day of the week or volume of work to be completed ? how are we ensuring that parents know how best to lead their children through this at the moment ? kirsty williams am: firstly , can i recognise what a challenge this is ? we 've just heard from hefin who is carrying on his day job as the assembly member , but is obviously trying to do that as well as care for and provide learning for his children , and i know , chair , that you 're doing the same , and i 'm certainly trying to do the same , and it 's a real challenge , it 's not easy . as part of our 'stay safe . stay learning ' policy statement , advice is available to parents and carers on the hwb platform as to what they best can do to support their children . i think the really important message that i 've been trying to give to parents is not to be too hard on ourselves . i know that everybody is doing the best that they can in really challenging circumstances . and if they have concerns , they should be in contact with their child 's school , but we do have specific advice and guidance to parents on the hwb platform . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 're going to move on now to some questions on examinations from janet finch-saunders . janet , we ca n't hear you . i tell you what , we'll— . janet , do you want to try again ? no . okay , we 'll go on then to questions on higher education and post 16 , and we 'll come back to examinations , if that 's okay . suzy . suzy davies am: yes , thank you , chair . before we leave continuity of learning , do you mind if i just ask this one question ? lynne neagle am: no , that 's fine . yes , go on . suzy davies am: your comment , minister , on working with local authorities to make sure that individuals have hardware : can you just give us a bit of detail on what working with local authorities actually means ? in the process of that , is there any data gathering going on for those pupils who are being educated at home and the levels at which they 're engaging ? you know , are they sticking with it , or how many are dropping out ? because i think the two of those perhaps go together . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . so , i 'm hoping to make an announcement tomorrow , if not later on this week , about some specific details around support for hardware and connectivity . we 're working closely with local authorities to understand just that : to understand from the schools the number of schools that—and a number of them have already done this—have been lending chromebooks , ipads and laptops to children , and also identifying children who are not perhaps engaging in the activities that have been made available . and we 'll be doing two things to support local authorities . the first is to use the stock of equipment that they already have to be able to provide hardware to students . so , we have purchased on a national basis software that , when applied to an old piece of kit , essentially turns it into an out-of-the-box chromebook . because , as you can imagine , just like other things during a pandemic , there has been a rush to buy new stuff on the market and then there is a scramble and nobody can get what they need . so , we 're utilisng kit that is already available in schools and local authorities , and we will look to backfill that to schools at a later point out of our edtech investment programme . the other issue is , once a child has a chromebook or a laptop or a device , issues around connectivity . so , we 're also looking to purchase on a national level and distribute mi-fi connectivity , so students will be able to have access to wi-fi where they do n't have that already . that 's why we need to work closely with local authorities and schools to identify the level of that need and to make sure the stuff gets to the right children . one of the ways in which we are able to do that is to look at engagement in education . so , if a child has n't been engaging , is that because they just do n't want to and they 're voting with their feet—but clearly teachers need to have a conversation about that—or is that because the child simply does not have the ability to do that , and therefore we need to get that stuff out to those children ? so , rather than just simply leaving it to local authorities to scramble around in a very crowded market to get the stuff that they will need , we 're trying to do that on a national basis and deploy that to local authorities . so , our officials have been having conversations with each of our local authorities to ascertain what 's already happened , and there is very good practice out there—schools have been proactive—but where there are gaps , what can we do as a national government to be able to assist them to do that ? we are repurposing some of the resources that we had previously identified for our edtech investment , using those resources to fill this particular gap . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 're going to go back to janet now . i believe we 've got sound again , so janet can ask her questions on examinations . janet . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . i thought it was something at this end ; i 'm glad to hear it was n't . when will vocational learners know what is happening with their assessments , and how will those who have no choice but to wait for a vocational assessment be supported ? kirsty williams am: okay . that 's a very good question , janet , because i know that there has been some concern and anxiety around vocational qualification students and how quickly we 've been able to provide certainty for them . you 'll be aware that qualifications wales have been able , in the last week , to be able to give that greater clarity . so , they have announced that learners due to complete their essential skills wales qualifications will receive results . they have also published their approach to how health and social care qualifications will be managed , because , of course , those are part of the first set of reformed quals that we have done on a wales basis . you are right , there are a group of students who fall into the category where there are technical qualifications that require a certificate of competency to be industry ready—i hope i 've explained that correctly—and , therefore , we are working to understand how we can accommodate those students in these particular circumstances . but , at this stage , there may be some delay for that element of their qualification being delayed to a further date . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: yes . what are your expectations for how a-level and gcse qualifications will be awarded this summer , following the ministerial direction that you have issued to qualifications wales ? for example , how is an appropriate balance being taken between recognising the progress of pupils in their coursework , mock examinations , and other work to date , and also , the potential of pupils who might have performed particularly well in their examinations this summer ? kirsty williams am: well , janet , i understand—and today is a day where some students would have been undertaking practical examinations—i understand how devastating it has been to both students and teachers alike for the decision i had to take to cancel this summer 's exam series . but i 'm absolutely clear that was the only decision that could have been reached . qualifications wales has made it very clear—and for people who would like more information , i would urge them to look at qualifications wales 's website—how they will go about giving , allocating , and awarding a grade to our a-level and gcse students . firstly , teachers will be asked to submit a grade they believe that student would have obtained , should they have taken an exam . and , of course , teachers will have a range of data and their own professional judgment that they will use in awarding that grade . teachers will also be asked to rank students in order . once that information has been submitted to qualifications wales , there will be a process by which that data will be moderated ; moderated from centre to centre and across the nation , thus giving us the chance to award a student a fair grade whilst being , and remaining , true to ensuring that we have a robust qualifications system , and allowing those students who find themselves at a critical stage of their education , where they are looking to move on to the next stages—that they will have the grades that will allow them to make decisions about their future . janet finch-saunders am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you , janet . we 're going to go on now , then , to the questions on higher and further education from suzy davies . suzy . suzy davies am: thank you , chair . i suppose my first question just goes back to the 16-year-olds at the moment and those who are looking forward to either going to college , the older ones going to university , there 'll be apprenticeships , all kinds of future pathways for post 16. what 's happening at school level , or even at college level , to get those students ready for the next steps , because , obviously , they 're not in their usual environments and getting their usual programme of teaching ? kirsty williams am: no , that 's quite right , suzy , and i should have said in answer to janet 's question , as well—i 'm sure people already know , but just to get the point across—that a-level results day and gcse day will run as normal across not just wales , but england , wales and northern ireland , which is really important . you 're right , suzy—for those people that are coming to the end of one part of their education this is a particularly challenging time . you 'll be aware that , last week , on hwb , we were able to launch a programme for year 13 students to help them get ready for university . i 'm very grateful to the he sector in wales , who 've worked really hard with us on that . so , for instance , if you were a year 13 student or even a year 12 student that was thinking about or interested in areas around social policy , you could have tuned into a social policy lecturer at swansea university . if you go to the hwb website , you will be able to see that there are subject listings , everything from animal science through to law , politics , history and science , with links through to higher education and further education courses that students can avail themselves of . there 's also a section on preparation for essential study skills , whether that is report writing or academic writing . so , there is a range of activities and courses available for year 13 , so that children—'children ' ; they 're all children to me—young people can get themselves— . they do n't have to stop learning , and they can get themselves ready for the next stage of their education . again , for those children , perhaps , who are coming to the end of their gcses , there is a range of information , either within their own schools or within their local colleges about things that can keep them learning . so , for instance , i 'm aware of one school where you can go onto the website and there are recommendations of , for instance , what you could be reading over the summer if you 're interested in doing this particular a-level in september . i know that there are also moves in schools and in colleges to be able to make sure that those children do n't miss out on really important careers advice at this time , as well , and information , so they can make informed decisions . i know that people are working hard to link up children to advice services that are available so that they can make those really important future decisions with the advice of either a teacher or other professional so that they 've got those options . so , there is material out there and it 's growing all the time . this week , we were able to launch our virtual seren network . you 'll be aware that , for the last couple of years , we 've been able to send welsh children to the yale global summer school . clearly , that ca n't happen this year . that 's devastating for those year 12s who had worked so hard and had won a place on that programme . they will now be able to attend the yale global scholars programme virtually and remotely , because yale have moved that programme online . so , we 're developing materials and resources all of the time . suzy davies am: thank you for that answer . before i move on to my next question , can you give me some sort of sense of how that hwb domain is being populated ? where is all this information being sourced from ? presumably , they 'll be working with partners , but what does that look like ? kirsty williams am: oh , my goodness . yes , absolutely— suzy davies am: [ inaudible . ] kirsty williams am: yes , we 're working very hard . so , everything from our work with the bbc , for instance , and bbc bitesize through to our fe colleges and our he institutions , as well as other organisations in the third sector who are looking to provide those opportunities . can i just say that , last week , we were looking at , every day , in the region of well over 150,000 logins a day into hwb ? suzy davies am: well , that 's great . so there 's proactive populating of hwb . that 's what i was after . that 's great . just going back to some of janet 's questions and the assessed grades , i want to talk to you about the unconditional offers and where we are with that at the moment for entry to universities , because there 's going to be a scramble now of the available students for further education , but primarily higher education institutions , across the uk . is the moratorium on unconditional offers still standing ? are there conversations going on to extend that moratorium ? otherwise , this scramble is going to potentially negatively affect our universities quite considerably . kirsty williams am: yes , you 'll be aware that a moratorium does exist . it exists in this current context to 1 may . we continue to keep in close touch with colleagues in northern ireland , scotland and in the westminster government around these issues . officials are also in touch with ucas , and in the last couple of days i 've had at least three meetings with representatives of the welsh higher education sector to discuss these matters . suzy davies am: i just want to ask you now about students and their maintenance loan grants . i think they 're getting , around now , the money going into their bank account that they would normally have expected at this time of year . that 's right , yes ? kirsty williams am: that 's correct , yes . suzy davies am: what 's happening to those students who would normally be living in digs somewhere but are now living at home ? are they likely to be asked to reimburse part of the cost , because obviously it 's not as expensive to live at home as away , and what 's likely to be happening with the maintenance loans over the summer holiday period , potentially ? because we 've had a period now where students ca n't top up their maintenance loans by going out and working on weekends or working in the evenings , or whatever , so their income has been impacted . just in the round , what kind of conversations are happening around that ? again , it 's probably a four-nation approach , i would imagine . kirsty williams am: thank you , suzy . you are correct to say that our student support regime does allow for a lower payment to be made to those students that stay at home during their studies , but i want to reassure students that there will be no change to their student support payments just because they have left their universities and have decided to go home . there should be no change . also , we are continuing , it should be important to say , to pay education maintenance allowance at this time for our fe students that are eligible for that , even though , obviously , for ema there is an attendance requirement , but clearly that is not appropriate to enforce at the moment . you are correct—this is a worrying time for many students in higher education , especially for those who are looking to graduate at this time and are going out into an economy that has been tremendously badly hit by the pandemic . at this time , we continue to have conversations with nus wales about what can be done within a welsh context , but , as you quite rightly say , also within a uk context , to support students who may have been affected . we are continuing—on our webpage we have a frequently asked questions section that advises students in the first instance , especially when it comes , for instance , to the cost of accommodation—to have those discussions , and i 'm very grateful that , in some cases , some of our institutions have been able to waive or partially waive accommodation fees where students have vacated their accommodation and have returned to their usual home address . but we will continue to have dialogue with nus wales and with our counterparts across the country to look to see what more we can do to support students at this time . suzy davies am: thank you for that answer , and , yes , i was pleased to see that announcement through the nus as well , so well done to those accommodation providers who have a heart . i think we 'll all have seen the universities uk document that explains some of the difficulties that they 're going to be running into if this proceeds much further . my understanding is that the main emphasis at the moment is to try and get all the universities across the uk through this initial period of difficulty by releasing as much money as possible . i can see that your figure to the higher education funding council for wales was a little bit down on last year 's letter—not that there 's been a remit letter yet , but an indication . are you releasing that money earlier so that they can use it more swiftly , or does that not matter ? lynne neagle am: before you come in , minister , that is going to have to be the last question , just to make you aware of that , because we are coming up to the end of our time . suzy davies am: okay . that 's fine . kirsty williams am: of course , suzy , we are working closely with universities wales and have a lot of sympathy for the proposals that have come forward from universities uk , which wales 's universities have been a part of forming . stability in the first instance is really important to us , which is why we 've been able to give an indication to hefcw about resources that are available , and we 've been very clear to hefcw that we want to be as flexible as possible in how they use those resources to support institutions . that potentially would mean reprofiling the way in which money gets out to institutions , but clearly we will need to have an ongoing discussion about how we respond to the immediacy of the issues facing he , how we can get stability for the next academic year , and how we then can support the sector through what is a really challenging time for them . we will do that in a welsh context and we will continue to do that also in a uk context , because you will have seen the scale of some of the figures that have been talked about in terms of the impact on the he sector at this time . clearly , a four-nation approach to that will be crucial . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . well , we have come to the end of our time , and , as to anything that we did n't ask , we will have to write to the minister . can i just thank the minister and her officials for your attendance today ? we know how busy you are dealing with the pandemic and we very much welcome this opportunity to have this discussion with you . so , thank you , minister and officials for your time . as usual , you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . diolch yn fawr . kirsty williams am: diolch yn fawr , chair . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then . can i propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? okay . i see that members are content , so we will now proceed to meet in private .

dawn bowden am asked about the methods to include more vulnerable children to the hubs and to begin with , kirsty williams am suggested that this challenge was faced by the four nations . the welsh government , together with local authorities and local education systems were looking to support families whose children had special education needs in a number of ways , including to decrease risks for hiring a social worker . moreover , dawn bowden am assumed that appropriate referral mechanisms should still be in place , which was agreed by kirsty williams am who added that schools should remain in contact with children and continue to identify vulnerable children .

what did kirsty williams am react in response to help students with emotional and mental health difficulties ? </s> lynne neagle am: good afternoon , everyone . welcome to the first virtual meeting of the children , young people and education committee . in accordance with standing order 34.19 , i determine that the public are excluded from the committee 's meeting , in order to protect public health . in accordance with standing order 34.21 , notice of this decision was included in the agenda for this meeting , which was published last friday . this meeting is , however , being broadcast live on senedd.tv , with all participants joining via video conference . a record of the proceedings will be published as usual . aside from the procedural adaptation relating to conducting proceedings remotely , all other standing order requirements for committees remain in place . the meeting is bilingual , and simultaneous translation from welsh to english is available . can i remind all participants that the microphones will be controlled centrally , so there 's no need to turn them on and off individually ? can i ask whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . thank you . can i just then , again , note for the record that , if , for any reason , i drop out of the meeting , the committee has agreed that dawn bowden am will temporarily chair while i try to rejoin ? item 2 , then , this afternoon is an evidence session with the welsh government on the impact of the coronavirus epidemic on education in wales . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams am , minister for education , steve davies , director of the education directorate , and huw morris , who is group director , skills , higher education and lifelong learning . can i welcome you all and thank you for attending ? minister , i understand you 'd like to make a short opening statement . kirsty williams am: thank you very much , lynne . and indeed , if i could just begin by , once again , putting on the record my gratitude to everyone who is helping us get through this pandemic . there are a vast number of people who are keeping our school hubs open , looking after vulnerable children , and the children of key workers . because of them , and their efforts , those key workers are able to carry on their critical roles in responding to covid-19 . i am extremely proud of the way that members of the school community have gone above and beyond . they have kept their schools open out of hours , over the weekends , on bank holidays , and easter . and it is really heartening and humbling to see the way that they have responded to this crisis . and there are teachers , teaching assistants , and many others , who are helping our children and their parents to keep learning at home . i know that home schooling is n't easy , so i want to say also thank you to parents and carers for their efforts at this time . by keeping their children at home , they are helping us to keep people safe , and reducing pressure on our education system , and on our nhs . be in no doubt , we are facing many challenges because of this pandemic . my primary concern is , and always will be , the health and well-being of our children , of our young people , and of all the staff in our education settings . and i am very grateful to everyone who is supporting us in these endeavours . thank you very much—diolch yn fawr . and i 'm now happy to answer questions that members of the committee may have this afternoon . lynne neagle am: thank you very much , minister . i 'm sure that the committee echoes the heartfelt thanks you have just given then . the first questions we 've got this afternoon are from hefin david . hefin david am: good afternoon , minister . with regard to your five principles , which you 've set out today , regarding when schools will reopen , they 're very clear that they require a judgment from you . so could you outline when you think that schools might reopen ? kirsty williams am: thank you , hefin . i am very clear that schools will move to a new phase—because , already , schools are open in many settings ; we will move to a new phase when it is safe to do so and when i have advice from the chief medical officer and the chief scientific officer that it is safe to do so . i have made very clear in my statement that that is not imminent . i know that in some cases there has been speculation that a return to normal could be with us quite shortly . i 'm clear that a return to normal is not imminent , and therefore i 'm not in a position to give a date as to when we will see more schools opening up to more children . hefin david am: have you been given any indication at all by the chief medical officer as to when , in the longer term , it might be ? kirsty williams am: no , i have not been given a date . what i have done today is publish the principles that will aid me in , as you said , me making a decision . so , clearly , we will be relying on the advice of our medical and scientific advisers , but the principles are very clear . firstly , we will need to consider any decision to have more children returning to school in the context of the safety and the physical and the emotional well-being of children and young people and the staff . obviously , i ca n't make a decision regarding education in isolation . it will have to be taken in the context of the wider welsh government response to dealing with this pandemic . thirdly , it is absolutely crucial in making any decisions that we have clearly communicated that to parents and to staff , on the information that we have used to reach any decisions , to build confidence for parents and professionals , but also to give them time to plan . it will be impossible to move quickly to new ways of working . and we also have to look at—and it 's been paraphrased quite a lot today—if we are looking at certain groups of children accessing more education within a school setting , which groups they should be . and , finally , how do we operationalise that ? how do we make those settings as safe as they possibly can be , and how do we tackle some of the difficult challenges of everything from ensuring that we have adequate numbers of workforce available , to the very real questions about how you would do social distancing in the context of education , school transport issues , how you would avoid people gathering at the school gate , for instance ? so , there are very practical issues that would need to be considered and thought through very , very carefully before we could return , before what we could see is a move from where we are now to the next phase of education , and new approaches to what schooling may look like . but , again , i must be absolutely clear to you , members of the committee , and to people watching : it is not feasible , in this sense , that we would move from where we are now to what all of us would regard as normal education and what the operation of schools looked like before the start of this pandemic . hefin david am: so , what is clear from what you 've said is that it 's going to be phased return . i would assume that would be the most vulnerable—perhaps additional learning needs pupils would return first . just reading some of the things that you 've said today , can you answer that question ? and can i also ask : you said that guiding principle no . 3 will be having the confidence of parents , staff and students , based on evidence and information , so they can plan ahead . what will that evidence and information be , and how will you know that you 've got the confidence of parents to return ? kirsty williams am: well , as i said , primarily , we will need to take a lead from our scientific and medical advisers . i want to also say that we are obviously working on a four-nation basis and keeping in very close contact with my counterparts in northern ireland , scotland and england . but we 're also looking beyond the united kingdom to approaches to education in the face of this pandemic . members are aware that we as a nation are a member of the atlantic rim collaboratory . so , recently i was able to talk to educationalists and ministers in iceland , other parts of europe , north america , south america and australia . so , we 're also looking at best international evidence in this regard . and , clearly , we will need to be very clear , as today is an attempt to be very clear with parents and our teaching professionals , and the unions that represent them , about the basis of that evidence . hefin david am: and could i just ask , with regard to the principles , do they then apply to further education and universities ? kirsty williams am: well , of course , when we are discussing these challenges , we are doing that with our colleagues in both the school sector but also our colleagues in the fe sector , and we 're in close contact with colleagues in higher education to share thinking on these matters . hefin david am: but these principles do n't apply in those circumstances ; these are principles for schools only . kirsty williams am: these principles are applying to both , and our work in this area is applying to both schools and fe colleges . clearly , universities , as independent institutions , we would n't be able to dictate to . but i want to be absolutely clear : we are working with representatives of the he sector to include them in this work . and i have received , not assurances , but from discussions that i 've had with universities wales and vice-chancellors , they are very keen to be kept apprised of these approaches , because they may well wish to implement something similar within their own institutions . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got a couple of supplementaries now ; firstly , from suzy davies , and then i 'm going to go to siân gwenllian . suzy . no , we ca n't hear suzy . suzy ? no . i 'll go to siân , then , and then i 'll come back to suzy . siân . hefin david am: chair , i do n't think my microphone is muted . sian gwenllian am: okay . i 'll move on to my question to kirsty williams . now , it is clear that any decisions that need to be taken on reopening schools would have to be made in the context of all of the other issues that the welsh government has to take into account . and it is entirely clear that the approach of government towards testing has n't been sufficiently developed for us to even start to think about removing restrictions . so , would n't it be dangerous , if truth be told , to start to discuss reopening schools when we have n't had the necessary testing in place for the majority of the population ? and does n't it convey a mixed message that we 're starting to relax some of these restrictions when , in reality , the restrictions are still in place and still need to be in place robustly ? kirsty williams am: first of all , thank you very much , siân , for that important question . can i be absolutely clear , and i thought i had been pretty clear in answering hefin david , that we are not relaxing any of the restrictions with regard to education ? as i said to hefin , it is not imminent that we would see a further phase in the next stage of education here in wales . what i have done today is to provide clarity on the nature of the principles that i would use when coming to any discussion . it is the responsibility of me , as the minister , and indeed of the wider government , to begin to think about planning for the future . but i have been absolutely clear : we are not moving to an imminent change in how education is operating at the moment . and i 'm also very , very clear that should we be given the opportunity to see more children in our schools , i will only do that when it is safe for me to do so , when i 've been advised by the cmo that i am able to do that , and we have given sufficient time and planning to the sector to respond . it is not going to be easy , and we will need to give them , as a sector , time to be able to address . but if i have not been clear enough , let me say it again : we are not relaxing any issues around schools at present , nor is that imminent . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , i think we can try going to you again now . suzy davies am: thank you . minister , in your consideration of introducing a phased return to school , in due course , have you taken into consideration how things like school absences are going to be managed ? because , regardless of the amount of good work you do on messaging , there will still be some families that do n't realise that going back to school is for their particular family . will there be a relaxation of , effectively , what we would call truancy rules ? or is that something that schools will be getting guidance on much up-front ? kirsty williams am: thank you , suzy . as i said in my statement earlier today , returning to school will not be a return to normal , and in recognition of this , i 've already made it clear that i will seek , in all opportunities , to reduce the burdens on school . that includes various data collection , the suspension of performance measures and removing the requirement to undertake literacy and numeracy testing , and , clearly , school attendance will want to be an important factor of that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . i 'm keen to go on now to talk about the current situation as being faced by our children and young people in schools with some questions from siân gwenllian . siân . sian gwenllian am: since yesterday , the welsh government has started publishing data on the number of schools that are open , the number of children attending those schools , and the number of staff involved , and they have been making this information available as per capita of the population . on average , i think it 's 1 per cent of the children of wales that actually attend these locations , and some 5 per cent of the staff . so , can you analyse those figures a little further ? can you tell us how many children , according to this data , are children of key workers , and how many are vulnerable children ? kirsty williams am: thank you very much , siân . as you quite rightly say , on average , we have 518 school hubs open each day , with up to 4,200 children attending . we have seen an increase in the number of attendances since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term . we have approximately 5.6 per cent of the teaching population working in those hubs , and at present , 85 per cent of the children who are attending are the children of key workers , the remainder being vulnerable children . so , we are now averaging 600 vulnerable children per day . these are small numbers , but we have seen an increase in those numbers since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term . sian gwenllian am: okay . i 'm sure we 'll return to that point a little later on . how much confidence do you therefore have that the arrangements are effective in terms of the safety of staff and children at these locations ? kirsty williams am: thank you once again for that . the smooth operation of the hubs , with regard to health and safety , is , of course , of paramount importance . what we have seen since schools closed for traditional statutory purposes and moving to their repurposed function—we have seen a change of pattern over time . so , following my announcement on , i believe , 18 march , the week after , we saw a large number of settings open and operating . as local authorities have been able to understand the demand for those places—from critical workers and vulnerable children—we have seen more local authorities move to a hub model , and we have been able to publish guidance to local authorities on how issues around safe working in those hubs should be followed , and we 've been able to give guidance in that regard . local authorities are asked by us to report any incidents where they are concerned about operation issues on the ground . sian gwenllian am: as i mentioned earlier , testing is crucially important in dealing with this crisis . so , how many school staff have been tested for covid because they may have experienced symptoms and so on ? and how many of those have tested positive ? kirsty williams am: my understanding from public health wales is that 15 teachers have been tested for covid-19 , and i believe two of those results have come back as positive . can i make it absolutely clear , the week before last , welsh government issued new guidance around who should be tested ? i want to make it absolutely clear to those professionals working in our hubs , if they or a member of their family are exhibiting any of the symptoms , however mild , of covid-19 , they can and they should be tested . sian gwenllian am: okay . and the final question from me on this : how important is testing going to be in this next phase , as you start to think about relaxing restrictions ? kirsty williams am: obviously , the ability to be able to test , to trace and to quarantine will be critical to the next phase and will be a very , very important and significant building block in all aspects of the government 's work to respond to this pandemic . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you , minister , and thank you , siân . we 've got some questions now on the impact on particular groups of children , from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . just following on from your answer to siân gwenllian earlier about the number of vulnerable children in school , what 's being done specifically to facilitate more of those children coming into a school setting or hub at the moment ? i 'm thinking about the 600 you 've talked about , and i know , in one of my local authority areas of merthyr , which is a very small authority , we 're talking about the number of children identified as vulnerable running into thousands , not hundreds , and that 's just in one authority . so , this is a particularly difficult issue to address , i appreciate , but how are we going to get more of these children into the hubs ? kirsty williams am: okay , dawn . the first thing to say is that the issue of vulnerable children attending settings is one that is a challenge to not just wales , but also to my colleagues in northern ireland , scotland and england . i 'm pleased to say that we are working across government departments—myself , obviously , and colleagues in education—with colleagues in social services to have a cross-government approach to these issues . i think the first thing to say is that these are complex messages , because the overriding public health message from our government has been to stay at home and children should be kept at home as much as possible , and to make sure that our hubs run smoothly , safely and effectively , we do need to limit the number of children who are attending those hubs . so , firstly , the fact that numbers are small is in some ways a success of our public health messages , because parents have been heeding those messages , but , of course , all of us will have concerns for some children who remain at home . so , i 'm pleased to say that we have seen a doubling in the last week of the number of children . so , although numbers are small , they have doubled over the course of the last week . we 're working with local authorities and they have assured us that children and young people with a social worker have been risk assessed on a multi-agency basis and are receiving support in a number of ways , and that includes having conversations about some of those children attending the hubs . they 're also looking to support in other ways . of course , some of our children who would be classed as vulnerable—and our definition of 'vulnerable ' is one that is shared between the systems in england and wales—could be children with a statement of special educational needs . for some of those children who , perhaps , have very intense health needs , actually , staying at home is the appropriate thing for that child and that family to do , and we 're looking to support families , and local authorities and local education systems are looking to support families , in a number of ways . we also know that just because you do n't have a social worker or a statement of special educational needs does not mean that a child may not be vulnerable , and schools are very aware of the needs of those children and have been carrying out regular telephone check-ins where they can—if the age of the child is appropriate—just to keep in touch with those families and those individual children . but we will continue to work across government to encourage , where it is appropriate , children to attend settings , and , if it is not appropriate for children to be in a setting , that there is contact with those children and young people to ensure that they remain , and their families remain , supported . dawn bowden am: thank you , minister . it 's encouraging to hear you talk about the ongoing safeguarding of children that are at home and i assume , within that , appropriate referral mechanisms are still in place if teachers or anybody has any particular concern about a child . similarly , with special educational needs , whereas some of those children benefit clearly from a one-to-one provision in a school , and they may not respond as well to remote working , or remote contact , with an sen advisor , are you considering in any way any relaxation of the lockdown rule in particular for those children in terms of them being able to access the support that they need for their particular educational needs ? kirsty williams am: well , first of all , dawn , you 're absolutely right : my expectation is that schools should remain in contact with children and continue to identify vulnerable children , and schools should continue to refer children to children 's services if they have any concerns , and that would also , of course , be the case for youth workers who may be keeping in contact with children . so , there is a professional expectation on all those that are working with our children and young people that , despite the circumstances they find themselves in , they should continue to report and refer cases if they see anything or hear or are told anything that makes them concerned about a child 's welfare and safety . with regard to children with additional learning needs , i am aware that that can present a number of challenges to families and children , and perhaps steve davies could give some further details . we have been keen to work with local authorities to ensure specialist provision , where that is appropriate—so , if i could give you an example of my own local authority in powys , they have two specialist centres available for children with more profound additional learning needs , and those centres are available—recognising , however , that , even with the provision of specialist hubs , it can be a challenge for some children with additional learning needs to find themselves outside of a routine . hubs are often staffed on a rota basis and therefore children could be faced with staff that they are unfamiliar with . so , even when local authorities—and the vast , vast majority of them do—have specialist services in place , sometimes that might not be the best thing for a child 's health and well-being . but perhaps steve can give us further details of the conversations that have been taking place with directors of education to ensure that children with additional learning needs have access to the hubs and specialist support . steve . steve davies: yes , myself and colleague albert heaney—colleague-director—have been in regular touch with directors of education and directors of social services to make sure that these children and young people 's needs are catered for . we are very aware of all of the special schools—profound and multiple learning difficulties , ebd schools and pupil referral units—that have been kept open in their own way , but also , in some cases , as hubs , to deliver those services for those children 's needs , and we 're pleased that the directors and the local authorities have responded so constructively . so , we have the details of every school that 's open , the pupils who are attending , and we are clear that the risk assessments that the minister referred to for children with special needs , as well as wider vulnerable groups—they are having risk assessments to make sure that , where there is a need identified for a pupil that is not currently attending a hub , then the local authority can be working with that child and with the parents . lynne neagle am: thank you , steve . dawn . dawn bowden am: thank you . just two more questions . one is around emotional and mental health difficulties being experienced by children and young people at the moment . now , there was a very welcome announcement of £1.25 million pounds for school counselling . how is that , in practical terms , being applied if those children are not actually in school ? kirsty williams am: you 're right , dawn : we have to consider how we can support children not only in their learning during this time , but also to recognise the very real impact that the pandemic will have on all of our mental health and well-being—recognising , of course , it is absolutely natural for all of us , including children and young people , to have fears and anxieties at this time . that 's a natural reaction to the situation that we find ourselves in . but , of course , there are issues around those children that would have currently been receiving school counselling , and also being able to be in a position to respond to a potential growth in the number of children that are receiving support . so , the additional money will be made available to local authorities to be able to increase and ramp up services to support children and families . in the immediacy , of course , that will have to be done in different ways than perhaps we 've traditionally delivered services in the past , because of social distancing and lockdown rules , but we want to get some of these systems in place now , rather than waiting for everything to go back to normal . we need to be able to plan to offer services in the here and now , but also be able to plan for what potentially could be an increase in the demand of those services . so , we 've been in close touch with local authorities , asking them what they believe that they will need and how they can use additional financial resources , and we 've been very pleased to be able to secure that for them . dawn bowden am: so , that would include things like telephone and video support as well , i guess , then . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . so , that would include remote counselling as in a fashion that we 're doing now , but also , as and when some of the restrictions are perhaps removed , looking at an enhanced family therapy , or a therapy approach . so , when we talk about counselling , i think it 's important to recognise that there will be some flexibility around this money and it does not necessarily mean that local authorities have to use it on a one-to-one basis . that might not be appropriate for some children , especially our younger children and their families , and they can use that money to provide counselling or therapy—in the widest possible terms—that is the best method to support individual children and their families . but , clearly , we 're having to do that in the confines of lockdown and social distancing at the moment . some of that money can also be used to support the professional learning and the professional development of counsellors , because , of course , they may be being asked to work in a different way and we need to make sure that they have the appropriate skills and abilities to do that . dawn bowden am: thank you . thank you , minister . lynne neagle am: dawn , before you ask your final question , i 've got a couple of supplementaries—firstly from suzy , and then from hefin . suzy davies am: oh , thank you . my question goes back to the comment you made earlier , minister , about the number of children doubling—sorry , vulnerable children doubling—after the easter break , if we can call it that . so , what i 'm after is a sense of churn in these establishments . so , was that figure a recovery of a number of children that had been there before the easter break , and are the people who are there still the same people as were there right at the beginning of the crisis and the lockdown ? kirsty williams am: suzy , what i believe that we 're seeing in our schools is new pupils coming into school . so , there has been , i know , a real effort on behalf of educationalists and social services staff to really reach out to families and to make sure that they 're aware of the support that is available out there for them and their children , and to be able to give them the confidence that there are—that the hubs are available for them . so , we have seen an increase in children . those numbers are still small and , i believe , potentially , there is an opportunity to build on that and to have further conversations with families about the support that is available for vulnerable children , whether that— . that vulnerability , of course , can cover a whole range of issues . as i said when we last met , this is a constantly evolving situation . the initial response—local authorities and schools worked incredibly fast and incredibly quickly to set up these hubs . we 've seen an evolution in the weeks since that time and i am sure that we will continue to see some evolution in approaches . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin , you had a supplementary—briefly , please . hefin david am: yes , very quickly . i 've been listening to the answers with regard to vulnerable children , following on from that answer . i 'm at home with a vulnerable child—a child who has got additional learning needs . she 's got autism ; she 's four . i imagine there are many , many parents in exactly the same position—i 've heard from them . i have n't heard anything from the school or from the local authority . should i have heard something or should i be proactive in pursuing it ? kirsty williams am: i do n't want to comment on personal cases— hefin david am: but there are many others in this position . kirsty williams am: —but what i would say is that if parents have concerns and want to have a conversation about what support is available to them and their children , they should contact their local education authority to have a conversation as to what support is available . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . dawn , final question , please . dawn bowden am: yes , my last question is really about the potential for the attainment gap between disadvantaged pupils and their more affluent peers . is that a concern for you ? i 'm thinking particularly in relation to those less affluent families in having access to technology and so on . what kind of concerns do you have about that and what are we looking to do to try to ensure that that does n't actually play out ? kirsty williams am: thank you , dawn . all of the statistics would tell us that learning loss and the gap , potentially , will affect those more vulnerable children the most . clearly , we will want to consider that as we think about what the new normal for education may look like , or as we develop into future phases . depending on where that child is in their educational journey , of course , the needs and the potential for loss are slightly different . so , for instance , when we 're thinking about very young children , we could be thinking about a lack of social interaction and the development of oracy skills . of course , that , potentially , then will have a knock-on to their ability to learn to read and then to write , for instance . for other children who are , perhaps , older and heading towards formal examinations , the challenge when they return to school will be a slightly different one . i 'm not sure , chair , whether you want me to give some further details about our continuity-of-learning plan and how we are looking to address digital disadvantage now , or whether there are questions later . lynne neagle am: well , i 've got a question on that coming up , so , if it 's okay , dawn , we 'll go on to that now . before we do that , i was just going to ask how the welsh government is paying due regard to the united nations convention on the rights of the child and , obviously , the right children and young people have to an education . i was going to ask you about the risk of inequality due to varying access to digital resources , which are so important in ensuring continuity of learning . kirsty williams am: you 're absolutely correct , chair . officials are very aware of our responsibilities towards children 's rights in this regard and we are doing whatever we can to ensure that children have an equal opportunity and have equal access to learning at this time . we are fortunate in the regard that , because of previous decisions and investments , we have a strong base on which to build because we have our hwb digital learning platform and because we have invested heavily in the national purchasing of microsoft office and google for education tools , which are available to all families . we have become the first , i think—we 're certainly the first in the uk , and i 'm not sure whether we 're the first across the world , but i think we probably are—to deploy , for instance , adobe spark nationally . but , obviously , access to hardware and connectivity is crucial at this time . officials are working with local authorities to ensure that all children have access to both the hardware and the connectivity they need to be able to participate in digital learning at this particular time . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . just a final question from me : how exactly are we communicating to parents what the expectations are of them in terms of delivering this education at home now ? are there , for example , guidelines on recommended hours of home learning per day of the week or volume of work to be completed ? how are we ensuring that parents know how best to lead their children through this at the moment ? kirsty williams am: firstly , can i recognise what a challenge this is ? we 've just heard from hefin who is carrying on his day job as the assembly member , but is obviously trying to do that as well as care for and provide learning for his children , and i know , chair , that you 're doing the same , and i 'm certainly trying to do the same , and it 's a real challenge , it 's not easy . as part of our 'stay safe . stay learning ' policy statement , advice is available to parents and carers on the hwb platform as to what they best can do to support their children . i think the really important message that i 've been trying to give to parents is not to be too hard on ourselves . i know that everybody is doing the best that they can in really challenging circumstances . and if they have concerns , they should be in contact with their child 's school , but we do have specific advice and guidance to parents on the hwb platform . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 're going to move on now to some questions on examinations from janet finch-saunders . janet , we ca n't hear you . i tell you what , we'll— . janet , do you want to try again ? no . okay , we 'll go on then to questions on higher education and post 16 , and we 'll come back to examinations , if that 's okay . suzy . suzy davies am: yes , thank you , chair . before we leave continuity of learning , do you mind if i just ask this one question ? lynne neagle am: no , that 's fine . yes , go on . suzy davies am: your comment , minister , on working with local authorities to make sure that individuals have hardware : can you just give us a bit of detail on what working with local authorities actually means ? in the process of that , is there any data gathering going on for those pupils who are being educated at home and the levels at which they 're engaging ? you know , are they sticking with it , or how many are dropping out ? because i think the two of those perhaps go together . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . so , i 'm hoping to make an announcement tomorrow , if not later on this week , about some specific details around support for hardware and connectivity . we 're working closely with local authorities to understand just that : to understand from the schools the number of schools that—and a number of them have already done this—have been lending chromebooks , ipads and laptops to children , and also identifying children who are not perhaps engaging in the activities that have been made available . and we 'll be doing two things to support local authorities . the first is to use the stock of equipment that they already have to be able to provide hardware to students . so , we have purchased on a national basis software that , when applied to an old piece of kit , essentially turns it into an out-of-the-box chromebook . because , as you can imagine , just like other things during a pandemic , there has been a rush to buy new stuff on the market and then there is a scramble and nobody can get what they need . so , we 're utilisng kit that is already available in schools and local authorities , and we will look to backfill that to schools at a later point out of our edtech investment programme . the other issue is , once a child has a chromebook or a laptop or a device , issues around connectivity . so , we 're also looking to purchase on a national level and distribute mi-fi connectivity , so students will be able to have access to wi-fi where they do n't have that already . that 's why we need to work closely with local authorities and schools to identify the level of that need and to make sure the stuff gets to the right children . one of the ways in which we are able to do that is to look at engagement in education . so , if a child has n't been engaging , is that because they just do n't want to and they 're voting with their feet—but clearly teachers need to have a conversation about that—or is that because the child simply does not have the ability to do that , and therefore we need to get that stuff out to those children ? so , rather than just simply leaving it to local authorities to scramble around in a very crowded market to get the stuff that they will need , we 're trying to do that on a national basis and deploy that to local authorities . so , our officials have been having conversations with each of our local authorities to ascertain what 's already happened , and there is very good practice out there—schools have been proactive—but where there are gaps , what can we do as a national government to be able to assist them to do that ? we are repurposing some of the resources that we had previously identified for our edtech investment , using those resources to fill this particular gap . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 're going to go back to janet now . i believe we 've got sound again , so janet can ask her questions on examinations . janet . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . i thought it was something at this end ; i 'm glad to hear it was n't . when will vocational learners know what is happening with their assessments , and how will those who have no choice but to wait for a vocational assessment be supported ? kirsty williams am: okay . that 's a very good question , janet , because i know that there has been some concern and anxiety around vocational qualification students and how quickly we 've been able to provide certainty for them . you 'll be aware that qualifications wales have been able , in the last week , to be able to give that greater clarity . so , they have announced that learners due to complete their essential skills wales qualifications will receive results . they have also published their approach to how health and social care qualifications will be managed , because , of course , those are part of the first set of reformed quals that we have done on a wales basis . you are right , there are a group of students who fall into the category where there are technical qualifications that require a certificate of competency to be industry ready—i hope i 've explained that correctly—and , therefore , we are working to understand how we can accommodate those students in these particular circumstances . but , at this stage , there may be some delay for that element of their qualification being delayed to a further date . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: yes . what are your expectations for how a-level and gcse qualifications will be awarded this summer , following the ministerial direction that you have issued to qualifications wales ? for example , how is an appropriate balance being taken between recognising the progress of pupils in their coursework , mock examinations , and other work to date , and also , the potential of pupils who might have performed particularly well in their examinations this summer ? kirsty williams am: well , janet , i understand—and today is a day where some students would have been undertaking practical examinations—i understand how devastating it has been to both students and teachers alike for the decision i had to take to cancel this summer 's exam series . but i 'm absolutely clear that was the only decision that could have been reached . qualifications wales has made it very clear—and for people who would like more information , i would urge them to look at qualifications wales 's website—how they will go about giving , allocating , and awarding a grade to our a-level and gcse students . firstly , teachers will be asked to submit a grade they believe that student would have obtained , should they have taken an exam . and , of course , teachers will have a range of data and their own professional judgment that they will use in awarding that grade . teachers will also be asked to rank students in order . once that information has been submitted to qualifications wales , there will be a process by which that data will be moderated ; moderated from centre to centre and across the nation , thus giving us the chance to award a student a fair grade whilst being , and remaining , true to ensuring that we have a robust qualifications system , and allowing those students who find themselves at a critical stage of their education , where they are looking to move on to the next stages—that they will have the grades that will allow them to make decisions about their future . janet finch-saunders am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you , janet . we 're going to go on now , then , to the questions on higher and further education from suzy davies . suzy . suzy davies am: thank you , chair . i suppose my first question just goes back to the 16-year-olds at the moment and those who are looking forward to either going to college , the older ones going to university , there 'll be apprenticeships , all kinds of future pathways for post 16. what 's happening at school level , or even at college level , to get those students ready for the next steps , because , obviously , they 're not in their usual environments and getting their usual programme of teaching ? kirsty williams am: no , that 's quite right , suzy , and i should have said in answer to janet 's question , as well—i 'm sure people already know , but just to get the point across—that a-level results day and gcse day will run as normal across not just wales , but england , wales and northern ireland , which is really important . you 're right , suzy—for those people that are coming to the end of one part of their education this is a particularly challenging time . you 'll be aware that , last week , on hwb , we were able to launch a programme for year 13 students to help them get ready for university . i 'm very grateful to the he sector in wales , who 've worked really hard with us on that . so , for instance , if you were a year 13 student or even a year 12 student that was thinking about or interested in areas around social policy , you could have tuned into a social policy lecturer at swansea university . if you go to the hwb website , you will be able to see that there are subject listings , everything from animal science through to law , politics , history and science , with links through to higher education and further education courses that students can avail themselves of . there 's also a section on preparation for essential study skills , whether that is report writing or academic writing . so , there is a range of activities and courses available for year 13 , so that children—'children ' ; they 're all children to me—young people can get themselves— . they do n't have to stop learning , and they can get themselves ready for the next stage of their education . again , for those children , perhaps , who are coming to the end of their gcses , there is a range of information , either within their own schools or within their local colleges about things that can keep them learning . so , for instance , i 'm aware of one school where you can go onto the website and there are recommendations of , for instance , what you could be reading over the summer if you 're interested in doing this particular a-level in september . i know that there are also moves in schools and in colleges to be able to make sure that those children do n't miss out on really important careers advice at this time , as well , and information , so they can make informed decisions . i know that people are working hard to link up children to advice services that are available so that they can make those really important future decisions with the advice of either a teacher or other professional so that they 've got those options . so , there is material out there and it 's growing all the time . this week , we were able to launch our virtual seren network . you 'll be aware that , for the last couple of years , we 've been able to send welsh children to the yale global summer school . clearly , that ca n't happen this year . that 's devastating for those year 12s who had worked so hard and had won a place on that programme . they will now be able to attend the yale global scholars programme virtually and remotely , because yale have moved that programme online . so , we 're developing materials and resources all of the time . suzy davies am: thank you for that answer . before i move on to my next question , can you give me some sort of sense of how that hwb domain is being populated ? where is all this information being sourced from ? presumably , they 'll be working with partners , but what does that look like ? kirsty williams am: oh , my goodness . yes , absolutely— suzy davies am: [ inaudible . ] kirsty williams am: yes , we 're working very hard . so , everything from our work with the bbc , for instance , and bbc bitesize through to our fe colleges and our he institutions , as well as other organisations in the third sector who are looking to provide those opportunities . can i just say that , last week , we were looking at , every day , in the region of well over 150,000 logins a day into hwb ? suzy davies am: well , that 's great . so there 's proactive populating of hwb . that 's what i was after . that 's great . just going back to some of janet 's questions and the assessed grades , i want to talk to you about the unconditional offers and where we are with that at the moment for entry to universities , because there 's going to be a scramble now of the available students for further education , but primarily higher education institutions , across the uk . is the moratorium on unconditional offers still standing ? are there conversations going on to extend that moratorium ? otherwise , this scramble is going to potentially negatively affect our universities quite considerably . kirsty williams am: yes , you 'll be aware that a moratorium does exist . it exists in this current context to 1 may . we continue to keep in close touch with colleagues in northern ireland , scotland and in the westminster government around these issues . officials are also in touch with ucas , and in the last couple of days i 've had at least three meetings with representatives of the welsh higher education sector to discuss these matters . suzy davies am: i just want to ask you now about students and their maintenance loan grants . i think they 're getting , around now , the money going into their bank account that they would normally have expected at this time of year . that 's right , yes ? kirsty williams am: that 's correct , yes . suzy davies am: what 's happening to those students who would normally be living in digs somewhere but are now living at home ? are they likely to be asked to reimburse part of the cost , because obviously it 's not as expensive to live at home as away , and what 's likely to be happening with the maintenance loans over the summer holiday period , potentially ? because we 've had a period now where students ca n't top up their maintenance loans by going out and working on weekends or working in the evenings , or whatever , so their income has been impacted . just in the round , what kind of conversations are happening around that ? again , it 's probably a four-nation approach , i would imagine . kirsty williams am: thank you , suzy . you are correct to say that our student support regime does allow for a lower payment to be made to those students that stay at home during their studies , but i want to reassure students that there will be no change to their student support payments just because they have left their universities and have decided to go home . there should be no change . also , we are continuing , it should be important to say , to pay education maintenance allowance at this time for our fe students that are eligible for that , even though , obviously , for ema there is an attendance requirement , but clearly that is not appropriate to enforce at the moment . you are correct—this is a worrying time for many students in higher education , especially for those who are looking to graduate at this time and are going out into an economy that has been tremendously badly hit by the pandemic . at this time , we continue to have conversations with nus wales about what can be done within a welsh context , but , as you quite rightly say , also within a uk context , to support students who may have been affected . we are continuing—on our webpage we have a frequently asked questions section that advises students in the first instance , especially when it comes , for instance , to the cost of accommodation—to have those discussions , and i 'm very grateful that , in some cases , some of our institutions have been able to waive or partially waive accommodation fees where students have vacated their accommodation and have returned to their usual home address . but we will continue to have dialogue with nus wales and with our counterparts across the country to look to see what more we can do to support students at this time . suzy davies am: thank you for that answer , and , yes , i was pleased to see that announcement through the nus as well , so well done to those accommodation providers who have a heart . i think we 'll all have seen the universities uk document that explains some of the difficulties that they 're going to be running into if this proceeds much further . my understanding is that the main emphasis at the moment is to try and get all the universities across the uk through this initial period of difficulty by releasing as much money as possible . i can see that your figure to the higher education funding council for wales was a little bit down on last year 's letter—not that there 's been a remit letter yet , but an indication . are you releasing that money earlier so that they can use it more swiftly , or does that not matter ? lynne neagle am: before you come in , minister , that is going to have to be the last question , just to make you aware of that , because we are coming up to the end of our time . suzy davies am: okay . that 's fine . kirsty williams am: of course , suzy , we are working closely with universities wales and have a lot of sympathy for the proposals that have come forward from universities uk , which wales 's universities have been a part of forming . stability in the first instance is really important to us , which is why we 've been able to give an indication to hefcw about resources that are available , and we 've been very clear to hefcw that we want to be as flexible as possible in how they use those resources to support institutions . that potentially would mean reprofiling the way in which money gets out to institutions , but clearly we will need to have an ongoing discussion about how we respond to the immediacy of the issues facing he , how we can get stability for the next academic year , and how we then can support the sector through what is a really challenging time for them . we will do that in a welsh context and we will continue to do that also in a uk context , because you will have seen the scale of some of the figures that have been talked about in terms of the impact on the he sector at this time . clearly , a four-nation approach to that will be crucial . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . well , we have come to the end of our time , and , as to anything that we did n't ask , we will have to write to the minister . can i just thank the minister and her officials for your attendance today ? we know how busy you are dealing with the pandemic and we very much welcome this opportunity to have this discussion with you . so , thank you , minister and officials for your time . as usual , you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . diolch yn fawr . kirsty williams am: diolch yn fawr , chair . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then . can i propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? okay . i see that members are content , so we will now proceed to meet in private .

kirsty williams am mentioned that those children would have currently been receiving school counselling , and there would be more children receiving support . in this case , the additional money will be made available to local authorities to be able to increase and ramp up services to support children and families with intense need . moreover , how to adapt patterns to deliver these services to the pandemic situation would be discussed . for instance , video or telephone methods would be adopted and one to one basis help patterns would also be included to support professional learning for counsellings .

what did kirsty williams am suggest about keeping students studying at home ? </s> lynne neagle am: good afternoon , everyone . welcome to the first virtual meeting of the children , young people and education committee . in accordance with standing order 34.19 , i determine that the public are excluded from the committee 's meeting , in order to protect public health . in accordance with standing order 34.21 , notice of this decision was included in the agenda for this meeting , which was published last friday . this meeting is , however , being broadcast live on senedd.tv , with all participants joining via video conference . a record of the proceedings will be published as usual . aside from the procedural adaptation relating to conducting proceedings remotely , all other standing order requirements for committees remain in place . the meeting is bilingual , and simultaneous translation from welsh to english is available . can i remind all participants that the microphones will be controlled centrally , so there 's no need to turn them on and off individually ? can i ask whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . thank you . can i just then , again , note for the record that , if , for any reason , i drop out of the meeting , the committee has agreed that dawn bowden am will temporarily chair while i try to rejoin ? item 2 , then , this afternoon is an evidence session with the welsh government on the impact of the coronavirus epidemic on education in wales . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams am , minister for education , steve davies , director of the education directorate , and huw morris , who is group director , skills , higher education and lifelong learning . can i welcome you all and thank you for attending ? minister , i understand you 'd like to make a short opening statement . kirsty williams am: thank you very much , lynne . and indeed , if i could just begin by , once again , putting on the record my gratitude to everyone who is helping us get through this pandemic . there are a vast number of people who are keeping our school hubs open , looking after vulnerable children , and the children of key workers . because of them , and their efforts , those key workers are able to carry on their critical roles in responding to covid-19 . i am extremely proud of the way that members of the school community have gone above and beyond . they have kept their schools open out of hours , over the weekends , on bank holidays , and easter . and it is really heartening and humbling to see the way that they have responded to this crisis . and there are teachers , teaching assistants , and many others , who are helping our children and their parents to keep learning at home . i know that home schooling is n't easy , so i want to say also thank you to parents and carers for their efforts at this time . by keeping their children at home , they are helping us to keep people safe , and reducing pressure on our education system , and on our nhs . be in no doubt , we are facing many challenges because of this pandemic . my primary concern is , and always will be , the health and well-being of our children , of our young people , and of all the staff in our education settings . and i am very grateful to everyone who is supporting us in these endeavours . thank you very much—diolch yn fawr . and i 'm now happy to answer questions that members of the committee may have this afternoon . lynne neagle am: thank you very much , minister . i 'm sure that the committee echoes the heartfelt thanks you have just given then . the first questions we 've got this afternoon are from hefin david . hefin david am: good afternoon , minister . with regard to your five principles , which you 've set out today , regarding when schools will reopen , they 're very clear that they require a judgment from you . so could you outline when you think that schools might reopen ? kirsty williams am: thank you , hefin . i am very clear that schools will move to a new phase—because , already , schools are open in many settings ; we will move to a new phase when it is safe to do so and when i have advice from the chief medical officer and the chief scientific officer that it is safe to do so . i have made very clear in my statement that that is not imminent . i know that in some cases there has been speculation that a return to normal could be with us quite shortly . i 'm clear that a return to normal is not imminent , and therefore i 'm not in a position to give a date as to when we will see more schools opening up to more children . hefin david am: have you been given any indication at all by the chief medical officer as to when , in the longer term , it might be ? kirsty williams am: no , i have not been given a date . what i have done today is publish the principles that will aid me in , as you said , me making a decision . so , clearly , we will be relying on the advice of our medical and scientific advisers , but the principles are very clear . firstly , we will need to consider any decision to have more children returning to school in the context of the safety and the physical and the emotional well-being of children and young people and the staff . obviously , i ca n't make a decision regarding education in isolation . it will have to be taken in the context of the wider welsh government response to dealing with this pandemic . thirdly , it is absolutely crucial in making any decisions that we have clearly communicated that to parents and to staff , on the information that we have used to reach any decisions , to build confidence for parents and professionals , but also to give them time to plan . it will be impossible to move quickly to new ways of working . and we also have to look at—and it 's been paraphrased quite a lot today—if we are looking at certain groups of children accessing more education within a school setting , which groups they should be . and , finally , how do we operationalise that ? how do we make those settings as safe as they possibly can be , and how do we tackle some of the difficult challenges of everything from ensuring that we have adequate numbers of workforce available , to the very real questions about how you would do social distancing in the context of education , school transport issues , how you would avoid people gathering at the school gate , for instance ? so , there are very practical issues that would need to be considered and thought through very , very carefully before we could return , before what we could see is a move from where we are now to the next phase of education , and new approaches to what schooling may look like . but , again , i must be absolutely clear to you , members of the committee , and to people watching : it is not feasible , in this sense , that we would move from where we are now to what all of us would regard as normal education and what the operation of schools looked like before the start of this pandemic . hefin david am: so , what is clear from what you 've said is that it 's going to be phased return . i would assume that would be the most vulnerable—perhaps additional learning needs pupils would return first . just reading some of the things that you 've said today , can you answer that question ? and can i also ask : you said that guiding principle no . 3 will be having the confidence of parents , staff and students , based on evidence and information , so they can plan ahead . what will that evidence and information be , and how will you know that you 've got the confidence of parents to return ? kirsty williams am: well , as i said , primarily , we will need to take a lead from our scientific and medical advisers . i want to also say that we are obviously working on a four-nation basis and keeping in very close contact with my counterparts in northern ireland , scotland and england . but we 're also looking beyond the united kingdom to approaches to education in the face of this pandemic . members are aware that we as a nation are a member of the atlantic rim collaboratory . so , recently i was able to talk to educationalists and ministers in iceland , other parts of europe , north america , south america and australia . so , we 're also looking at best international evidence in this regard . and , clearly , we will need to be very clear , as today is an attempt to be very clear with parents and our teaching professionals , and the unions that represent them , about the basis of that evidence . hefin david am: and could i just ask , with regard to the principles , do they then apply to further education and universities ? kirsty williams am: well , of course , when we are discussing these challenges , we are doing that with our colleagues in both the school sector but also our colleagues in the fe sector , and we 're in close contact with colleagues in higher education to share thinking on these matters . hefin david am: but these principles do n't apply in those circumstances ; these are principles for schools only . kirsty williams am: these principles are applying to both , and our work in this area is applying to both schools and fe colleges . clearly , universities , as independent institutions , we would n't be able to dictate to . but i want to be absolutely clear : we are working with representatives of the he sector to include them in this work . and i have received , not assurances , but from discussions that i 've had with universities wales and vice-chancellors , they are very keen to be kept apprised of these approaches , because they may well wish to implement something similar within their own institutions . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got a couple of supplementaries now ; firstly , from suzy davies , and then i 'm going to go to siân gwenllian . suzy . no , we ca n't hear suzy . suzy ? no . i 'll go to siân , then , and then i 'll come back to suzy . siân . hefin david am: chair , i do n't think my microphone is muted . sian gwenllian am: okay . i 'll move on to my question to kirsty williams . now , it is clear that any decisions that need to be taken on reopening schools would have to be made in the context of all of the other issues that the welsh government has to take into account . and it is entirely clear that the approach of government towards testing has n't been sufficiently developed for us to even start to think about removing restrictions . so , would n't it be dangerous , if truth be told , to start to discuss reopening schools when we have n't had the necessary testing in place for the majority of the population ? and does n't it convey a mixed message that we 're starting to relax some of these restrictions when , in reality , the restrictions are still in place and still need to be in place robustly ? kirsty williams am: first of all , thank you very much , siân , for that important question . can i be absolutely clear , and i thought i had been pretty clear in answering hefin david , that we are not relaxing any of the restrictions with regard to education ? as i said to hefin , it is not imminent that we would see a further phase in the next stage of education here in wales . what i have done today is to provide clarity on the nature of the principles that i would use when coming to any discussion . it is the responsibility of me , as the minister , and indeed of the wider government , to begin to think about planning for the future . but i have been absolutely clear : we are not moving to an imminent change in how education is operating at the moment . and i 'm also very , very clear that should we be given the opportunity to see more children in our schools , i will only do that when it is safe for me to do so , when i 've been advised by the cmo that i am able to do that , and we have given sufficient time and planning to the sector to respond . it is not going to be easy , and we will need to give them , as a sector , time to be able to address . but if i have not been clear enough , let me say it again : we are not relaxing any issues around schools at present , nor is that imminent . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , i think we can try going to you again now . suzy davies am: thank you . minister , in your consideration of introducing a phased return to school , in due course , have you taken into consideration how things like school absences are going to be managed ? because , regardless of the amount of good work you do on messaging , there will still be some families that do n't realise that going back to school is for their particular family . will there be a relaxation of , effectively , what we would call truancy rules ? or is that something that schools will be getting guidance on much up-front ? kirsty williams am: thank you , suzy . as i said in my statement earlier today , returning to school will not be a return to normal , and in recognition of this , i 've already made it clear that i will seek , in all opportunities , to reduce the burdens on school . that includes various data collection , the suspension of performance measures and removing the requirement to undertake literacy and numeracy testing , and , clearly , school attendance will want to be an important factor of that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . i 'm keen to go on now to talk about the current situation as being faced by our children and young people in schools with some questions from siân gwenllian . siân . sian gwenllian am: since yesterday , the welsh government has started publishing data on the number of schools that are open , the number of children attending those schools , and the number of staff involved , and they have been making this information available as per capita of the population . on average , i think it 's 1 per cent of the children of wales that actually attend these locations , and some 5 per cent of the staff . so , can you analyse those figures a little further ? can you tell us how many children , according to this data , are children of key workers , and how many are vulnerable children ? kirsty williams am: thank you very much , siân . as you quite rightly say , on average , we have 518 school hubs open each day , with up to 4,200 children attending . we have seen an increase in the number of attendances since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term . we have approximately 5.6 per cent of the teaching population working in those hubs , and at present , 85 per cent of the children who are attending are the children of key workers , the remainder being vulnerable children . so , we are now averaging 600 vulnerable children per day . these are small numbers , but we have seen an increase in those numbers since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term . sian gwenllian am: okay . i 'm sure we 'll return to that point a little later on . how much confidence do you therefore have that the arrangements are effective in terms of the safety of staff and children at these locations ? kirsty williams am: thank you once again for that . the smooth operation of the hubs , with regard to health and safety , is , of course , of paramount importance . what we have seen since schools closed for traditional statutory purposes and moving to their repurposed function—we have seen a change of pattern over time . so , following my announcement on , i believe , 18 march , the week after , we saw a large number of settings open and operating . as local authorities have been able to understand the demand for those places—from critical workers and vulnerable children—we have seen more local authorities move to a hub model , and we have been able to publish guidance to local authorities on how issues around safe working in those hubs should be followed , and we 've been able to give guidance in that regard . local authorities are asked by us to report any incidents where they are concerned about operation issues on the ground . sian gwenllian am: as i mentioned earlier , testing is crucially important in dealing with this crisis . so , how many school staff have been tested for covid because they may have experienced symptoms and so on ? and how many of those have tested positive ? kirsty williams am: my understanding from public health wales is that 15 teachers have been tested for covid-19 , and i believe two of those results have come back as positive . can i make it absolutely clear , the week before last , welsh government issued new guidance around who should be tested ? i want to make it absolutely clear to those professionals working in our hubs , if they or a member of their family are exhibiting any of the symptoms , however mild , of covid-19 , they can and they should be tested . sian gwenllian am: okay . and the final question from me on this : how important is testing going to be in this next phase , as you start to think about relaxing restrictions ? kirsty williams am: obviously , the ability to be able to test , to trace and to quarantine will be critical to the next phase and will be a very , very important and significant building block in all aspects of the government 's work to respond to this pandemic . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you , minister , and thank you , siân . we 've got some questions now on the impact on particular groups of children , from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . just following on from your answer to siân gwenllian earlier about the number of vulnerable children in school , what 's being done specifically to facilitate more of those children coming into a school setting or hub at the moment ? i 'm thinking about the 600 you 've talked about , and i know , in one of my local authority areas of merthyr , which is a very small authority , we 're talking about the number of children identified as vulnerable running into thousands , not hundreds , and that 's just in one authority . so , this is a particularly difficult issue to address , i appreciate , but how are we going to get more of these children into the hubs ? kirsty williams am: okay , dawn . the first thing to say is that the issue of vulnerable children attending settings is one that is a challenge to not just wales , but also to my colleagues in northern ireland , scotland and england . i 'm pleased to say that we are working across government departments—myself , obviously , and colleagues in education—with colleagues in social services to have a cross-government approach to these issues . i think the first thing to say is that these are complex messages , because the overriding public health message from our government has been to stay at home and children should be kept at home as much as possible , and to make sure that our hubs run smoothly , safely and effectively , we do need to limit the number of children who are attending those hubs . so , firstly , the fact that numbers are small is in some ways a success of our public health messages , because parents have been heeding those messages , but , of course , all of us will have concerns for some children who remain at home . so , i 'm pleased to say that we have seen a doubling in the last week of the number of children . so , although numbers are small , they have doubled over the course of the last week . we 're working with local authorities and they have assured us that children and young people with a social worker have been risk assessed on a multi-agency basis and are receiving support in a number of ways , and that includes having conversations about some of those children attending the hubs . they 're also looking to support in other ways . of course , some of our children who would be classed as vulnerable—and our definition of 'vulnerable ' is one that is shared between the systems in england and wales—could be children with a statement of special educational needs . for some of those children who , perhaps , have very intense health needs , actually , staying at home is the appropriate thing for that child and that family to do , and we 're looking to support families , and local authorities and local education systems are looking to support families , in a number of ways . we also know that just because you do n't have a social worker or a statement of special educational needs does not mean that a child may not be vulnerable , and schools are very aware of the needs of those children and have been carrying out regular telephone check-ins where they can—if the age of the child is appropriate—just to keep in touch with those families and those individual children . but we will continue to work across government to encourage , where it is appropriate , children to attend settings , and , if it is not appropriate for children to be in a setting , that there is contact with those children and young people to ensure that they remain , and their families remain , supported . dawn bowden am: thank you , minister . it 's encouraging to hear you talk about the ongoing safeguarding of children that are at home and i assume , within that , appropriate referral mechanisms are still in place if teachers or anybody has any particular concern about a child . similarly , with special educational needs , whereas some of those children benefit clearly from a one-to-one provision in a school , and they may not respond as well to remote working , or remote contact , with an sen advisor , are you considering in any way any relaxation of the lockdown rule in particular for those children in terms of them being able to access the support that they need for their particular educational needs ? kirsty williams am: well , first of all , dawn , you 're absolutely right : my expectation is that schools should remain in contact with children and continue to identify vulnerable children , and schools should continue to refer children to children 's services if they have any concerns , and that would also , of course , be the case for youth workers who may be keeping in contact with children . so , there is a professional expectation on all those that are working with our children and young people that , despite the circumstances they find themselves in , they should continue to report and refer cases if they see anything or hear or are told anything that makes them concerned about a child 's welfare and safety . with regard to children with additional learning needs , i am aware that that can present a number of challenges to families and children , and perhaps steve davies could give some further details . we have been keen to work with local authorities to ensure specialist provision , where that is appropriate—so , if i could give you an example of my own local authority in powys , they have two specialist centres available for children with more profound additional learning needs , and those centres are available—recognising , however , that , even with the provision of specialist hubs , it can be a challenge for some children with additional learning needs to find themselves outside of a routine . hubs are often staffed on a rota basis and therefore children could be faced with staff that they are unfamiliar with . so , even when local authorities—and the vast , vast majority of them do—have specialist services in place , sometimes that might not be the best thing for a child 's health and well-being . but perhaps steve can give us further details of the conversations that have been taking place with directors of education to ensure that children with additional learning needs have access to the hubs and specialist support . steve . steve davies: yes , myself and colleague albert heaney—colleague-director—have been in regular touch with directors of education and directors of social services to make sure that these children and young people 's needs are catered for . we are very aware of all of the special schools—profound and multiple learning difficulties , ebd schools and pupil referral units—that have been kept open in their own way , but also , in some cases , as hubs , to deliver those services for those children 's needs , and we 're pleased that the directors and the local authorities have responded so constructively . so , we have the details of every school that 's open , the pupils who are attending , and we are clear that the risk assessments that the minister referred to for children with special needs , as well as wider vulnerable groups—they are having risk assessments to make sure that , where there is a need identified for a pupil that is not currently attending a hub , then the local authority can be working with that child and with the parents . lynne neagle am: thank you , steve . dawn . dawn bowden am: thank you . just two more questions . one is around emotional and mental health difficulties being experienced by children and young people at the moment . now , there was a very welcome announcement of £1.25 million pounds for school counselling . how is that , in practical terms , being applied if those children are not actually in school ? kirsty williams am: you 're right , dawn : we have to consider how we can support children not only in their learning during this time , but also to recognise the very real impact that the pandemic will have on all of our mental health and well-being—recognising , of course , it is absolutely natural for all of us , including children and young people , to have fears and anxieties at this time . that 's a natural reaction to the situation that we find ourselves in . but , of course , there are issues around those children that would have currently been receiving school counselling , and also being able to be in a position to respond to a potential growth in the number of children that are receiving support . so , the additional money will be made available to local authorities to be able to increase and ramp up services to support children and families . in the immediacy , of course , that will have to be done in different ways than perhaps we 've traditionally delivered services in the past , because of social distancing and lockdown rules , but we want to get some of these systems in place now , rather than waiting for everything to go back to normal . we need to be able to plan to offer services in the here and now , but also be able to plan for what potentially could be an increase in the demand of those services . so , we 've been in close touch with local authorities , asking them what they believe that they will need and how they can use additional financial resources , and we 've been very pleased to be able to secure that for them . dawn bowden am: so , that would include things like telephone and video support as well , i guess , then . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . so , that would include remote counselling as in a fashion that we 're doing now , but also , as and when some of the restrictions are perhaps removed , looking at an enhanced family therapy , or a therapy approach . so , when we talk about counselling , i think it 's important to recognise that there will be some flexibility around this money and it does not necessarily mean that local authorities have to use it on a one-to-one basis . that might not be appropriate for some children , especially our younger children and their families , and they can use that money to provide counselling or therapy—in the widest possible terms—that is the best method to support individual children and their families . but , clearly , we 're having to do that in the confines of lockdown and social distancing at the moment . some of that money can also be used to support the professional learning and the professional development of counsellors , because , of course , they may be being asked to work in a different way and we need to make sure that they have the appropriate skills and abilities to do that . dawn bowden am: thank you . thank you , minister . lynne neagle am: dawn , before you ask your final question , i 've got a couple of supplementaries—firstly from suzy , and then from hefin . suzy davies am: oh , thank you . my question goes back to the comment you made earlier , minister , about the number of children doubling—sorry , vulnerable children doubling—after the easter break , if we can call it that . so , what i 'm after is a sense of churn in these establishments . so , was that figure a recovery of a number of children that had been there before the easter break , and are the people who are there still the same people as were there right at the beginning of the crisis and the lockdown ? kirsty williams am: suzy , what i believe that we 're seeing in our schools is new pupils coming into school . so , there has been , i know , a real effort on behalf of educationalists and social services staff to really reach out to families and to make sure that they 're aware of the support that is available out there for them and their children , and to be able to give them the confidence that there are—that the hubs are available for them . so , we have seen an increase in children . those numbers are still small and , i believe , potentially , there is an opportunity to build on that and to have further conversations with families about the support that is available for vulnerable children , whether that— . that vulnerability , of course , can cover a whole range of issues . as i said when we last met , this is a constantly evolving situation . the initial response—local authorities and schools worked incredibly fast and incredibly quickly to set up these hubs . we 've seen an evolution in the weeks since that time and i am sure that we will continue to see some evolution in approaches . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin , you had a supplementary—briefly , please . hefin david am: yes , very quickly . i 've been listening to the answers with regard to vulnerable children , following on from that answer . i 'm at home with a vulnerable child—a child who has got additional learning needs . she 's got autism ; she 's four . i imagine there are many , many parents in exactly the same position—i 've heard from them . i have n't heard anything from the school or from the local authority . should i have heard something or should i be proactive in pursuing it ? kirsty williams am: i do n't want to comment on personal cases— hefin david am: but there are many others in this position . kirsty williams am: —but what i would say is that if parents have concerns and want to have a conversation about what support is available to them and their children , they should contact their local education authority to have a conversation as to what support is available . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . dawn , final question , please . dawn bowden am: yes , my last question is really about the potential for the attainment gap between disadvantaged pupils and their more affluent peers . is that a concern for you ? i 'm thinking particularly in relation to those less affluent families in having access to technology and so on . what kind of concerns do you have about that and what are we looking to do to try to ensure that that does n't actually play out ? kirsty williams am: thank you , dawn . all of the statistics would tell us that learning loss and the gap , potentially , will affect those more vulnerable children the most . clearly , we will want to consider that as we think about what the new normal for education may look like , or as we develop into future phases . depending on where that child is in their educational journey , of course , the needs and the potential for loss are slightly different . so , for instance , when we 're thinking about very young children , we could be thinking about a lack of social interaction and the development of oracy skills . of course , that , potentially , then will have a knock-on to their ability to learn to read and then to write , for instance . for other children who are , perhaps , older and heading towards formal examinations , the challenge when they return to school will be a slightly different one . i 'm not sure , chair , whether you want me to give some further details about our continuity-of-learning plan and how we are looking to address digital disadvantage now , or whether there are questions later . lynne neagle am: well , i 've got a question on that coming up , so , if it 's okay , dawn , we 'll go on to that now . before we do that , i was just going to ask how the welsh government is paying due regard to the united nations convention on the rights of the child and , obviously , the right children and young people have to an education . i was going to ask you about the risk of inequality due to varying access to digital resources , which are so important in ensuring continuity of learning . kirsty williams am: you 're absolutely correct , chair . officials are very aware of our responsibilities towards children 's rights in this regard and we are doing whatever we can to ensure that children have an equal opportunity and have equal access to learning at this time . we are fortunate in the regard that , because of previous decisions and investments , we have a strong base on which to build because we have our hwb digital learning platform and because we have invested heavily in the national purchasing of microsoft office and google for education tools , which are available to all families . we have become the first , i think—we 're certainly the first in the uk , and i 'm not sure whether we 're the first across the world , but i think we probably are—to deploy , for instance , adobe spark nationally . but , obviously , access to hardware and connectivity is crucial at this time . officials are working with local authorities to ensure that all children have access to both the hardware and the connectivity they need to be able to participate in digital learning at this particular time . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . just a final question from me : how exactly are we communicating to parents what the expectations are of them in terms of delivering this education at home now ? are there , for example , guidelines on recommended hours of home learning per day of the week or volume of work to be completed ? how are we ensuring that parents know how best to lead their children through this at the moment ? kirsty williams am: firstly , can i recognise what a challenge this is ? we 've just heard from hefin who is carrying on his day job as the assembly member , but is obviously trying to do that as well as care for and provide learning for his children , and i know , chair , that you 're doing the same , and i 'm certainly trying to do the same , and it 's a real challenge , it 's not easy . as part of our 'stay safe . stay learning ' policy statement , advice is available to parents and carers on the hwb platform as to what they best can do to support their children . i think the really important message that i 've been trying to give to parents is not to be too hard on ourselves . i know that everybody is doing the best that they can in really challenging circumstances . and if they have concerns , they should be in contact with their child 's school , but we do have specific advice and guidance to parents on the hwb platform . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 're going to move on now to some questions on examinations from janet finch-saunders . janet , we ca n't hear you . i tell you what , we'll— . janet , do you want to try again ? no . okay , we 'll go on then to questions on higher education and post 16 , and we 'll come back to examinations , if that 's okay . suzy . suzy davies am: yes , thank you , chair . before we leave continuity of learning , do you mind if i just ask this one question ? lynne neagle am: no , that 's fine . yes , go on . suzy davies am: your comment , minister , on working with local authorities to make sure that individuals have hardware : can you just give us a bit of detail on what working with local authorities actually means ? in the process of that , is there any data gathering going on for those pupils who are being educated at home and the levels at which they 're engaging ? you know , are they sticking with it , or how many are dropping out ? because i think the two of those perhaps go together . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . so , i 'm hoping to make an announcement tomorrow , if not later on this week , about some specific details around support for hardware and connectivity . we 're working closely with local authorities to understand just that : to understand from the schools the number of schools that—and a number of them have already done this—have been lending chromebooks , ipads and laptops to children , and also identifying children who are not perhaps engaging in the activities that have been made available . and we 'll be doing two things to support local authorities . the first is to use the stock of equipment that they already have to be able to provide hardware to students . so , we have purchased on a national basis software that , when applied to an old piece of kit , essentially turns it into an out-of-the-box chromebook . because , as you can imagine , just like other things during a pandemic , there has been a rush to buy new stuff on the market and then there is a scramble and nobody can get what they need . so , we 're utilisng kit that is already available in schools and local authorities , and we will look to backfill that to schools at a later point out of our edtech investment programme . the other issue is , once a child has a chromebook or a laptop or a device , issues around connectivity . so , we 're also looking to purchase on a national level and distribute mi-fi connectivity , so students will be able to have access to wi-fi where they do n't have that already . that 's why we need to work closely with local authorities and schools to identify the level of that need and to make sure the stuff gets to the right children . one of the ways in which we are able to do that is to look at engagement in education . so , if a child has n't been engaging , is that because they just do n't want to and they 're voting with their feet—but clearly teachers need to have a conversation about that—or is that because the child simply does not have the ability to do that , and therefore we need to get that stuff out to those children ? so , rather than just simply leaving it to local authorities to scramble around in a very crowded market to get the stuff that they will need , we 're trying to do that on a national basis and deploy that to local authorities . so , our officials have been having conversations with each of our local authorities to ascertain what 's already happened , and there is very good practice out there—schools have been proactive—but where there are gaps , what can we do as a national government to be able to assist them to do that ? we are repurposing some of the resources that we had previously identified for our edtech investment , using those resources to fill this particular gap . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 're going to go back to janet now . i believe we 've got sound again , so janet can ask her questions on examinations . janet . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . i thought it was something at this end ; i 'm glad to hear it was n't . when will vocational learners know what is happening with their assessments , and how will those who have no choice but to wait for a vocational assessment be supported ? kirsty williams am: okay . that 's a very good question , janet , because i know that there has been some concern and anxiety around vocational qualification students and how quickly we 've been able to provide certainty for them . you 'll be aware that qualifications wales have been able , in the last week , to be able to give that greater clarity . so , they have announced that learners due to complete their essential skills wales qualifications will receive results . they have also published their approach to how health and social care qualifications will be managed , because , of course , those are part of the first set of reformed quals that we have done on a wales basis . you are right , there are a group of students who fall into the category where there are technical qualifications that require a certificate of competency to be industry ready—i hope i 've explained that correctly—and , therefore , we are working to understand how we can accommodate those students in these particular circumstances . but , at this stage , there may be some delay for that element of their qualification being delayed to a further date . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: yes . what are your expectations for how a-level and gcse qualifications will be awarded this summer , following the ministerial direction that you have issued to qualifications wales ? for example , how is an appropriate balance being taken between recognising the progress of pupils in their coursework , mock examinations , and other work to date , and also , the potential of pupils who might have performed particularly well in their examinations this summer ? kirsty williams am: well , janet , i understand—and today is a day where some students would have been undertaking practical examinations—i understand how devastating it has been to both students and teachers alike for the decision i had to take to cancel this summer 's exam series . but i 'm absolutely clear that was the only decision that could have been reached . qualifications wales has made it very clear—and for people who would like more information , i would urge them to look at qualifications wales 's website—how they will go about giving , allocating , and awarding a grade to our a-level and gcse students . firstly , teachers will be asked to submit a grade they believe that student would have obtained , should they have taken an exam . and , of course , teachers will have a range of data and their own professional judgment that they will use in awarding that grade . teachers will also be asked to rank students in order . once that information has been submitted to qualifications wales , there will be a process by which that data will be moderated ; moderated from centre to centre and across the nation , thus giving us the chance to award a student a fair grade whilst being , and remaining , true to ensuring that we have a robust qualifications system , and allowing those students who find themselves at a critical stage of their education , where they are looking to move on to the next stages—that they will have the grades that will allow them to make decisions about their future . janet finch-saunders am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you , janet . we 're going to go on now , then , to the questions on higher and further education from suzy davies . suzy . suzy davies am: thank you , chair . i suppose my first question just goes back to the 16-year-olds at the moment and those who are looking forward to either going to college , the older ones going to university , there 'll be apprenticeships , all kinds of future pathways for post 16. what 's happening at school level , or even at college level , to get those students ready for the next steps , because , obviously , they 're not in their usual environments and getting their usual programme of teaching ? kirsty williams am: no , that 's quite right , suzy , and i should have said in answer to janet 's question , as well—i 'm sure people already know , but just to get the point across—that a-level results day and gcse day will run as normal across not just wales , but england , wales and northern ireland , which is really important . you 're right , suzy—for those people that are coming to the end of one part of their education this is a particularly challenging time . you 'll be aware that , last week , on hwb , we were able to launch a programme for year 13 students to help them get ready for university . i 'm very grateful to the he sector in wales , who 've worked really hard with us on that . so , for instance , if you were a year 13 student or even a year 12 student that was thinking about or interested in areas around social policy , you could have tuned into a social policy lecturer at swansea university . if you go to the hwb website , you will be able to see that there are subject listings , everything from animal science through to law , politics , history and science , with links through to higher education and further education courses that students can avail themselves of . there 's also a section on preparation for essential study skills , whether that is report writing or academic writing . so , there is a range of activities and courses available for year 13 , so that children—'children ' ; they 're all children to me—young people can get themselves— . they do n't have to stop learning , and they can get themselves ready for the next stage of their education . again , for those children , perhaps , who are coming to the end of their gcses , there is a range of information , either within their own schools or within their local colleges about things that can keep them learning . so , for instance , i 'm aware of one school where you can go onto the website and there are recommendations of , for instance , what you could be reading over the summer if you 're interested in doing this particular a-level in september . i know that there are also moves in schools and in colleges to be able to make sure that those children do n't miss out on really important careers advice at this time , as well , and information , so they can make informed decisions . i know that people are working hard to link up children to advice services that are available so that they can make those really important future decisions with the advice of either a teacher or other professional so that they 've got those options . so , there is material out there and it 's growing all the time . this week , we were able to launch our virtual seren network . you 'll be aware that , for the last couple of years , we 've been able to send welsh children to the yale global summer school . clearly , that ca n't happen this year . that 's devastating for those year 12s who had worked so hard and had won a place on that programme . they will now be able to attend the yale global scholars programme virtually and remotely , because yale have moved that programme online . so , we 're developing materials and resources all of the time . suzy davies am: thank you for that answer . before i move on to my next question , can you give me some sort of sense of how that hwb domain is being populated ? where is all this information being sourced from ? presumably , they 'll be working with partners , but what does that look like ? kirsty williams am: oh , my goodness . yes , absolutely— suzy davies am: [ inaudible . ] kirsty williams am: yes , we 're working very hard . so , everything from our work with the bbc , for instance , and bbc bitesize through to our fe colleges and our he institutions , as well as other organisations in the third sector who are looking to provide those opportunities . can i just say that , last week , we were looking at , every day , in the region of well over 150,000 logins a day into hwb ? suzy davies am: well , that 's great . so there 's proactive populating of hwb . that 's what i was after . that 's great . just going back to some of janet 's questions and the assessed grades , i want to talk to you about the unconditional offers and where we are with that at the moment for entry to universities , because there 's going to be a scramble now of the available students for further education , but primarily higher education institutions , across the uk . is the moratorium on unconditional offers still standing ? are there conversations going on to extend that moratorium ? otherwise , this scramble is going to potentially negatively affect our universities quite considerably . kirsty williams am: yes , you 'll be aware that a moratorium does exist . it exists in this current context to 1 may . we continue to keep in close touch with colleagues in northern ireland , scotland and in the westminster government around these issues . officials are also in touch with ucas , and in the last couple of days i 've had at least three meetings with representatives of the welsh higher education sector to discuss these matters . suzy davies am: i just want to ask you now about students and their maintenance loan grants . i think they 're getting , around now , the money going into their bank account that they would normally have expected at this time of year . that 's right , yes ? kirsty williams am: that 's correct , yes . suzy davies am: what 's happening to those students who would normally be living in digs somewhere but are now living at home ? are they likely to be asked to reimburse part of the cost , because obviously it 's not as expensive to live at home as away , and what 's likely to be happening with the maintenance loans over the summer holiday period , potentially ? because we 've had a period now where students ca n't top up their maintenance loans by going out and working on weekends or working in the evenings , or whatever , so their income has been impacted . just in the round , what kind of conversations are happening around that ? again , it 's probably a four-nation approach , i would imagine . kirsty williams am: thank you , suzy . you are correct to say that our student support regime does allow for a lower payment to be made to those students that stay at home during their studies , but i want to reassure students that there will be no change to their student support payments just because they have left their universities and have decided to go home . there should be no change . also , we are continuing , it should be important to say , to pay education maintenance allowance at this time for our fe students that are eligible for that , even though , obviously , for ema there is an attendance requirement , but clearly that is not appropriate to enforce at the moment . you are correct—this is a worrying time for many students in higher education , especially for those who are looking to graduate at this time and are going out into an economy that has been tremendously badly hit by the pandemic . at this time , we continue to have conversations with nus wales about what can be done within a welsh context , but , as you quite rightly say , also within a uk context , to support students who may have been affected . we are continuing—on our webpage we have a frequently asked questions section that advises students in the first instance , especially when it comes , for instance , to the cost of accommodation—to have those discussions , and i 'm very grateful that , in some cases , some of our institutions have been able to waive or partially waive accommodation fees where students have vacated their accommodation and have returned to their usual home address . but we will continue to have dialogue with nus wales and with our counterparts across the country to look to see what more we can do to support students at this time . suzy davies am: thank you for that answer , and , yes , i was pleased to see that announcement through the nus as well , so well done to those accommodation providers who have a heart . i think we 'll all have seen the universities uk document that explains some of the difficulties that they 're going to be running into if this proceeds much further . my understanding is that the main emphasis at the moment is to try and get all the universities across the uk through this initial period of difficulty by releasing as much money as possible . i can see that your figure to the higher education funding council for wales was a little bit down on last year 's letter—not that there 's been a remit letter yet , but an indication . are you releasing that money earlier so that they can use it more swiftly , or does that not matter ? lynne neagle am: before you come in , minister , that is going to have to be the last question , just to make you aware of that , because we are coming up to the end of our time . suzy davies am: okay . that 's fine . kirsty williams am: of course , suzy , we are working closely with universities wales and have a lot of sympathy for the proposals that have come forward from universities uk , which wales 's universities have been a part of forming . stability in the first instance is really important to us , which is why we 've been able to give an indication to hefcw about resources that are available , and we 've been very clear to hefcw that we want to be as flexible as possible in how they use those resources to support institutions . that potentially would mean reprofiling the way in which money gets out to institutions , but clearly we will need to have an ongoing discussion about how we respond to the immediacy of the issues facing he , how we can get stability for the next academic year , and how we then can support the sector through what is a really challenging time for them . we will do that in a welsh context and we will continue to do that also in a uk context , because you will have seen the scale of some of the figures that have been talked about in terms of the impact on the he sector at this time . clearly , a four-nation approach to that will be crucial . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . well , we have come to the end of our time , and , as to anything that we did n't ask , we will have to write to the minister . can i just thank the minister and her officials for your attendance today ? we know how busy you are dealing with the pandemic and we very much welcome this opportunity to have this discussion with you . so , thank you , minister and officials for your time . as usual , you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . diolch yn fawr . kirsty williams am: diolch yn fawr , chair . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then . can i propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? okay . i see that members are content , so we will now proceed to meet in private .

as being questioned by suzy davies am about continuing studies at home during the lockdown , kirsty williams am suggested that educationalists and social services staff had really reached out to families and they intent to make sure that families with difficulties were aware of the support that was available out there for them and their children . meanwhile , local authorities were encouraged to keep in contact with families to recognize their special needs for student education at home .

how did kirsty williams am plan to narrow the attainment gap between disadvantaged pupils and their more affluent peers ? </s> lynne neagle am: good afternoon , everyone . welcome to the first virtual meeting of the children , young people and education committee . in accordance with standing order 34.19 , i determine that the public are excluded from the committee 's meeting , in order to protect public health . in accordance with standing order 34.21 , notice of this decision was included in the agenda for this meeting , which was published last friday . this meeting is , however , being broadcast live on senedd.tv , with all participants joining via video conference . a record of the proceedings will be published as usual . aside from the procedural adaptation relating to conducting proceedings remotely , all other standing order requirements for committees remain in place . the meeting is bilingual , and simultaneous translation from welsh to english is available . can i remind all participants that the microphones will be controlled centrally , so there 's no need to turn them on and off individually ? can i ask whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . thank you . can i just then , again , note for the record that , if , for any reason , i drop out of the meeting , the committee has agreed that dawn bowden am will temporarily chair while i try to rejoin ? item 2 , then , this afternoon is an evidence session with the welsh government on the impact of the coronavirus epidemic on education in wales . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams am , minister for education , steve davies , director of the education directorate , and huw morris , who is group director , skills , higher education and lifelong learning . can i welcome you all and thank you for attending ? minister , i understand you 'd like to make a short opening statement . kirsty williams am: thank you very much , lynne . and indeed , if i could just begin by , once again , putting on the record my gratitude to everyone who is helping us get through this pandemic . there are a vast number of people who are keeping our school hubs open , looking after vulnerable children , and the children of key workers . because of them , and their efforts , those key workers are able to carry on their critical roles in responding to covid-19 . i am extremely proud of the way that members of the school community have gone above and beyond . they have kept their schools open out of hours , over the weekends , on bank holidays , and easter . and it is really heartening and humbling to see the way that they have responded to this crisis . and there are teachers , teaching assistants , and many others , who are helping our children and their parents to keep learning at home . i know that home schooling is n't easy , so i want to say also thank you to parents and carers for their efforts at this time . by keeping their children at home , they are helping us to keep people safe , and reducing pressure on our education system , and on our nhs . be in no doubt , we are facing many challenges because of this pandemic . my primary concern is , and always will be , the health and well-being of our children , of our young people , and of all the staff in our education settings . and i am very grateful to everyone who is supporting us in these endeavours . thank you very much—diolch yn fawr . and i 'm now happy to answer questions that members of the committee may have this afternoon . lynne neagle am: thank you very much , minister . i 'm sure that the committee echoes the heartfelt thanks you have just given then . the first questions we 've got this afternoon are from hefin david . hefin david am: good afternoon , minister . with regard to your five principles , which you 've set out today , regarding when schools will reopen , they 're very clear that they require a judgment from you . so could you outline when you think that schools might reopen ? kirsty williams am: thank you , hefin . i am very clear that schools will move to a new phase—because , already , schools are open in many settings ; we will move to a new phase when it is safe to do so and when i have advice from the chief medical officer and the chief scientific officer that it is safe to do so . i have made very clear in my statement that that is not imminent . i know that in some cases there has been speculation that a return to normal could be with us quite shortly . i 'm clear that a return to normal is not imminent , and therefore i 'm not in a position to give a date as to when we will see more schools opening up to more children . hefin david am: have you been given any indication at all by the chief medical officer as to when , in the longer term , it might be ? kirsty williams am: no , i have not been given a date . what i have done today is publish the principles that will aid me in , as you said , me making a decision . so , clearly , we will be relying on the advice of our medical and scientific advisers , but the principles are very clear . firstly , we will need to consider any decision to have more children returning to school in the context of the safety and the physical and the emotional well-being of children and young people and the staff . obviously , i ca n't make a decision regarding education in isolation . it will have to be taken in the context of the wider welsh government response to dealing with this pandemic . thirdly , it is absolutely crucial in making any decisions that we have clearly communicated that to parents and to staff , on the information that we have used to reach any decisions , to build confidence for parents and professionals , but also to give them time to plan . it will be impossible to move quickly to new ways of working . and we also have to look at—and it 's been paraphrased quite a lot today—if we are looking at certain groups of children accessing more education within a school setting , which groups they should be . and , finally , how do we operationalise that ? how do we make those settings as safe as they possibly can be , and how do we tackle some of the difficult challenges of everything from ensuring that we have adequate numbers of workforce available , to the very real questions about how you would do social distancing in the context of education , school transport issues , how you would avoid people gathering at the school gate , for instance ? so , there are very practical issues that would need to be considered and thought through very , very carefully before we could return , before what we could see is a move from where we are now to the next phase of education , and new approaches to what schooling may look like . but , again , i must be absolutely clear to you , members of the committee , and to people watching : it is not feasible , in this sense , that we would move from where we are now to what all of us would regard as normal education and what the operation of schools looked like before the start of this pandemic . hefin david am: so , what is clear from what you 've said is that it 's going to be phased return . i would assume that would be the most vulnerable—perhaps additional learning needs pupils would return first . just reading some of the things that you 've said today , can you answer that question ? and can i also ask : you said that guiding principle no . 3 will be having the confidence of parents , staff and students , based on evidence and information , so they can plan ahead . what will that evidence and information be , and how will you know that you 've got the confidence of parents to return ? kirsty williams am: well , as i said , primarily , we will need to take a lead from our scientific and medical advisers . i want to also say that we are obviously working on a four-nation basis and keeping in very close contact with my counterparts in northern ireland , scotland and england . but we 're also looking beyond the united kingdom to approaches to education in the face of this pandemic . members are aware that we as a nation are a member of the atlantic rim collaboratory . so , recently i was able to talk to educationalists and ministers in iceland , other parts of europe , north america , south america and australia . so , we 're also looking at best international evidence in this regard . and , clearly , we will need to be very clear , as today is an attempt to be very clear with parents and our teaching professionals , and the unions that represent them , about the basis of that evidence . hefin david am: and could i just ask , with regard to the principles , do they then apply to further education and universities ? kirsty williams am: well , of course , when we are discussing these challenges , we are doing that with our colleagues in both the school sector but also our colleagues in the fe sector , and we 're in close contact with colleagues in higher education to share thinking on these matters . hefin david am: but these principles do n't apply in those circumstances ; these are principles for schools only . kirsty williams am: these principles are applying to both , and our work in this area is applying to both schools and fe colleges . clearly , universities , as independent institutions , we would n't be able to dictate to . but i want to be absolutely clear : we are working with representatives of the he sector to include them in this work . and i have received , not assurances , but from discussions that i 've had with universities wales and vice-chancellors , they are very keen to be kept apprised of these approaches , because they may well wish to implement something similar within their own institutions . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got a couple of supplementaries now ; firstly , from suzy davies , and then i 'm going to go to siân gwenllian . suzy . no , we ca n't hear suzy . suzy ? no . i 'll go to siân , then , and then i 'll come back to suzy . siân . hefin david am: chair , i do n't think my microphone is muted . sian gwenllian am: okay . i 'll move on to my question to kirsty williams . now , it is clear that any decisions that need to be taken on reopening schools would have to be made in the context of all of the other issues that the welsh government has to take into account . and it is entirely clear that the approach of government towards testing has n't been sufficiently developed for us to even start to think about removing restrictions . so , would n't it be dangerous , if truth be told , to start to discuss reopening schools when we have n't had the necessary testing in place for the majority of the population ? and does n't it convey a mixed message that we 're starting to relax some of these restrictions when , in reality , the restrictions are still in place and still need to be in place robustly ? kirsty williams am: first of all , thank you very much , siân , for that important question . can i be absolutely clear , and i thought i had been pretty clear in answering hefin david , that we are not relaxing any of the restrictions with regard to education ? as i said to hefin , it is not imminent that we would see a further phase in the next stage of education here in wales . what i have done today is to provide clarity on the nature of the principles that i would use when coming to any discussion . it is the responsibility of me , as the minister , and indeed of the wider government , to begin to think about planning for the future . but i have been absolutely clear : we are not moving to an imminent change in how education is operating at the moment . and i 'm also very , very clear that should we be given the opportunity to see more children in our schools , i will only do that when it is safe for me to do so , when i 've been advised by the cmo that i am able to do that , and we have given sufficient time and planning to the sector to respond . it is not going to be easy , and we will need to give them , as a sector , time to be able to address . but if i have not been clear enough , let me say it again : we are not relaxing any issues around schools at present , nor is that imminent . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , i think we can try going to you again now . suzy davies am: thank you . minister , in your consideration of introducing a phased return to school , in due course , have you taken into consideration how things like school absences are going to be managed ? because , regardless of the amount of good work you do on messaging , there will still be some families that do n't realise that going back to school is for their particular family . will there be a relaxation of , effectively , what we would call truancy rules ? or is that something that schools will be getting guidance on much up-front ? kirsty williams am: thank you , suzy . as i said in my statement earlier today , returning to school will not be a return to normal , and in recognition of this , i 've already made it clear that i will seek , in all opportunities , to reduce the burdens on school . that includes various data collection , the suspension of performance measures and removing the requirement to undertake literacy and numeracy testing , and , clearly , school attendance will want to be an important factor of that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . i 'm keen to go on now to talk about the current situation as being faced by our children and young people in schools with some questions from siân gwenllian . siân . sian gwenllian am: since yesterday , the welsh government has started publishing data on the number of schools that are open , the number of children attending those schools , and the number of staff involved , and they have been making this information available as per capita of the population . on average , i think it 's 1 per cent of the children of wales that actually attend these locations , and some 5 per cent of the staff . so , can you analyse those figures a little further ? can you tell us how many children , according to this data , are children of key workers , and how many are vulnerable children ? kirsty williams am: thank you very much , siân . as you quite rightly say , on average , we have 518 school hubs open each day , with up to 4,200 children attending . we have seen an increase in the number of attendances since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term . we have approximately 5.6 per cent of the teaching population working in those hubs , and at present , 85 per cent of the children who are attending are the children of key workers , the remainder being vulnerable children . so , we are now averaging 600 vulnerable children per day . these are small numbers , but we have seen an increase in those numbers since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term . sian gwenllian am: okay . i 'm sure we 'll return to that point a little later on . how much confidence do you therefore have that the arrangements are effective in terms of the safety of staff and children at these locations ? kirsty williams am: thank you once again for that . the smooth operation of the hubs , with regard to health and safety , is , of course , of paramount importance . what we have seen since schools closed for traditional statutory purposes and moving to their repurposed function—we have seen a change of pattern over time . so , following my announcement on , i believe , 18 march , the week after , we saw a large number of settings open and operating . as local authorities have been able to understand the demand for those places—from critical workers and vulnerable children—we have seen more local authorities move to a hub model , and we have been able to publish guidance to local authorities on how issues around safe working in those hubs should be followed , and we 've been able to give guidance in that regard . local authorities are asked by us to report any incidents where they are concerned about operation issues on the ground . sian gwenllian am: as i mentioned earlier , testing is crucially important in dealing with this crisis . so , how many school staff have been tested for covid because they may have experienced symptoms and so on ? and how many of those have tested positive ? kirsty williams am: my understanding from public health wales is that 15 teachers have been tested for covid-19 , and i believe two of those results have come back as positive . can i make it absolutely clear , the week before last , welsh government issued new guidance around who should be tested ? i want to make it absolutely clear to those professionals working in our hubs , if they or a member of their family are exhibiting any of the symptoms , however mild , of covid-19 , they can and they should be tested . sian gwenllian am: okay . and the final question from me on this : how important is testing going to be in this next phase , as you start to think about relaxing restrictions ? kirsty williams am: obviously , the ability to be able to test , to trace and to quarantine will be critical to the next phase and will be a very , very important and significant building block in all aspects of the government 's work to respond to this pandemic . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you , minister , and thank you , siân . we 've got some questions now on the impact on particular groups of children , from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . just following on from your answer to siân gwenllian earlier about the number of vulnerable children in school , what 's being done specifically to facilitate more of those children coming into a school setting or hub at the moment ? i 'm thinking about the 600 you 've talked about , and i know , in one of my local authority areas of merthyr , which is a very small authority , we 're talking about the number of children identified as vulnerable running into thousands , not hundreds , and that 's just in one authority . so , this is a particularly difficult issue to address , i appreciate , but how are we going to get more of these children into the hubs ? kirsty williams am: okay , dawn . the first thing to say is that the issue of vulnerable children attending settings is one that is a challenge to not just wales , but also to my colleagues in northern ireland , scotland and england . i 'm pleased to say that we are working across government departments—myself , obviously , and colleagues in education—with colleagues in social services to have a cross-government approach to these issues . i think the first thing to say is that these are complex messages , because the overriding public health message from our government has been to stay at home and children should be kept at home as much as possible , and to make sure that our hubs run smoothly , safely and effectively , we do need to limit the number of children who are attending those hubs . so , firstly , the fact that numbers are small is in some ways a success of our public health messages , because parents have been heeding those messages , but , of course , all of us will have concerns for some children who remain at home . so , i 'm pleased to say that we have seen a doubling in the last week of the number of children . so , although numbers are small , they have doubled over the course of the last week . we 're working with local authorities and they have assured us that children and young people with a social worker have been risk assessed on a multi-agency basis and are receiving support in a number of ways , and that includes having conversations about some of those children attending the hubs . they 're also looking to support in other ways . of course , some of our children who would be classed as vulnerable—and our definition of 'vulnerable ' is one that is shared between the systems in england and wales—could be children with a statement of special educational needs . for some of those children who , perhaps , have very intense health needs , actually , staying at home is the appropriate thing for that child and that family to do , and we 're looking to support families , and local authorities and local education systems are looking to support families , in a number of ways . we also know that just because you do n't have a social worker or a statement of special educational needs does not mean that a child may not be vulnerable , and schools are very aware of the needs of those children and have been carrying out regular telephone check-ins where they can—if the age of the child is appropriate—just to keep in touch with those families and those individual children . but we will continue to work across government to encourage , where it is appropriate , children to attend settings , and , if it is not appropriate for children to be in a setting , that there is contact with those children and young people to ensure that they remain , and their families remain , supported . dawn bowden am: thank you , minister . it 's encouraging to hear you talk about the ongoing safeguarding of children that are at home and i assume , within that , appropriate referral mechanisms are still in place if teachers or anybody has any particular concern about a child . similarly , with special educational needs , whereas some of those children benefit clearly from a one-to-one provision in a school , and they may not respond as well to remote working , or remote contact , with an sen advisor , are you considering in any way any relaxation of the lockdown rule in particular for those children in terms of them being able to access the support that they need for their particular educational needs ? kirsty williams am: well , first of all , dawn , you 're absolutely right : my expectation is that schools should remain in contact with children and continue to identify vulnerable children , and schools should continue to refer children to children 's services if they have any concerns , and that would also , of course , be the case for youth workers who may be keeping in contact with children . so , there is a professional expectation on all those that are working with our children and young people that , despite the circumstances they find themselves in , they should continue to report and refer cases if they see anything or hear or are told anything that makes them concerned about a child 's welfare and safety . with regard to children with additional learning needs , i am aware that that can present a number of challenges to families and children , and perhaps steve davies could give some further details . we have been keen to work with local authorities to ensure specialist provision , where that is appropriate—so , if i could give you an example of my own local authority in powys , they have two specialist centres available for children with more profound additional learning needs , and those centres are available—recognising , however , that , even with the provision of specialist hubs , it can be a challenge for some children with additional learning needs to find themselves outside of a routine . hubs are often staffed on a rota basis and therefore children could be faced with staff that they are unfamiliar with . so , even when local authorities—and the vast , vast majority of them do—have specialist services in place , sometimes that might not be the best thing for a child 's health and well-being . but perhaps steve can give us further details of the conversations that have been taking place with directors of education to ensure that children with additional learning needs have access to the hubs and specialist support . steve . steve davies: yes , myself and colleague albert heaney—colleague-director—have been in regular touch with directors of education and directors of social services to make sure that these children and young people 's needs are catered for . we are very aware of all of the special schools—profound and multiple learning difficulties , ebd schools and pupil referral units—that have been kept open in their own way , but also , in some cases , as hubs , to deliver those services for those children 's needs , and we 're pleased that the directors and the local authorities have responded so constructively . so , we have the details of every school that 's open , the pupils who are attending , and we are clear that the risk assessments that the minister referred to for children with special needs , as well as wider vulnerable groups—they are having risk assessments to make sure that , where there is a need identified for a pupil that is not currently attending a hub , then the local authority can be working with that child and with the parents . lynne neagle am: thank you , steve . dawn . dawn bowden am: thank you . just two more questions . one is around emotional and mental health difficulties being experienced by children and young people at the moment . now , there was a very welcome announcement of £1.25 million pounds for school counselling . how is that , in practical terms , being applied if those children are not actually in school ? kirsty williams am: you 're right , dawn : we have to consider how we can support children not only in their learning during this time , but also to recognise the very real impact that the pandemic will have on all of our mental health and well-being—recognising , of course , it is absolutely natural for all of us , including children and young people , to have fears and anxieties at this time . that 's a natural reaction to the situation that we find ourselves in . but , of course , there are issues around those children that would have currently been receiving school counselling , and also being able to be in a position to respond to a potential growth in the number of children that are receiving support . so , the additional money will be made available to local authorities to be able to increase and ramp up services to support children and families . in the immediacy , of course , that will have to be done in different ways than perhaps we 've traditionally delivered services in the past , because of social distancing and lockdown rules , but we want to get some of these systems in place now , rather than waiting for everything to go back to normal . we need to be able to plan to offer services in the here and now , but also be able to plan for what potentially could be an increase in the demand of those services . so , we 've been in close touch with local authorities , asking them what they believe that they will need and how they can use additional financial resources , and we 've been very pleased to be able to secure that for them . dawn bowden am: so , that would include things like telephone and video support as well , i guess , then . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . so , that would include remote counselling as in a fashion that we 're doing now , but also , as and when some of the restrictions are perhaps removed , looking at an enhanced family therapy , or a therapy approach . so , when we talk about counselling , i think it 's important to recognise that there will be some flexibility around this money and it does not necessarily mean that local authorities have to use it on a one-to-one basis . that might not be appropriate for some children , especially our younger children and their families , and they can use that money to provide counselling or therapy—in the widest possible terms—that is the best method to support individual children and their families . but , clearly , we 're having to do that in the confines of lockdown and social distancing at the moment . some of that money can also be used to support the professional learning and the professional development of counsellors , because , of course , they may be being asked to work in a different way and we need to make sure that they have the appropriate skills and abilities to do that . dawn bowden am: thank you . thank you , minister . lynne neagle am: dawn , before you ask your final question , i 've got a couple of supplementaries—firstly from suzy , and then from hefin . suzy davies am: oh , thank you . my question goes back to the comment you made earlier , minister , about the number of children doubling—sorry , vulnerable children doubling—after the easter break , if we can call it that . so , what i 'm after is a sense of churn in these establishments . so , was that figure a recovery of a number of children that had been there before the easter break , and are the people who are there still the same people as were there right at the beginning of the crisis and the lockdown ? kirsty williams am: suzy , what i believe that we 're seeing in our schools is new pupils coming into school . so , there has been , i know , a real effort on behalf of educationalists and social services staff to really reach out to families and to make sure that they 're aware of the support that is available out there for them and their children , and to be able to give them the confidence that there are—that the hubs are available for them . so , we have seen an increase in children . those numbers are still small and , i believe , potentially , there is an opportunity to build on that and to have further conversations with families about the support that is available for vulnerable children , whether that— . that vulnerability , of course , can cover a whole range of issues . as i said when we last met , this is a constantly evolving situation . the initial response—local authorities and schools worked incredibly fast and incredibly quickly to set up these hubs . we 've seen an evolution in the weeks since that time and i am sure that we will continue to see some evolution in approaches . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin , you had a supplementary—briefly , please . hefin david am: yes , very quickly . i 've been listening to the answers with regard to vulnerable children , following on from that answer . i 'm at home with a vulnerable child—a child who has got additional learning needs . she 's got autism ; she 's four . i imagine there are many , many parents in exactly the same position—i 've heard from them . i have n't heard anything from the school or from the local authority . should i have heard something or should i be proactive in pursuing it ? kirsty williams am: i do n't want to comment on personal cases— hefin david am: but there are many others in this position . kirsty williams am: —but what i would say is that if parents have concerns and want to have a conversation about what support is available to them and their children , they should contact their local education authority to have a conversation as to what support is available . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . dawn , final question , please . dawn bowden am: yes , my last question is really about the potential for the attainment gap between disadvantaged pupils and their more affluent peers . is that a concern for you ? i 'm thinking particularly in relation to those less affluent families in having access to technology and so on . what kind of concerns do you have about that and what are we looking to do to try to ensure that that does n't actually play out ? kirsty williams am: thank you , dawn . all of the statistics would tell us that learning loss and the gap , potentially , will affect those more vulnerable children the most . clearly , we will want to consider that as we think about what the new normal for education may look like , or as we develop into future phases . depending on where that child is in their educational journey , of course , the needs and the potential for loss are slightly different . so , for instance , when we 're thinking about very young children , we could be thinking about a lack of social interaction and the development of oracy skills . of course , that , potentially , then will have a knock-on to their ability to learn to read and then to write , for instance . for other children who are , perhaps , older and heading towards formal examinations , the challenge when they return to school will be a slightly different one . i 'm not sure , chair , whether you want me to give some further details about our continuity-of-learning plan and how we are looking to address digital disadvantage now , or whether there are questions later . lynne neagle am: well , i 've got a question on that coming up , so , if it 's okay , dawn , we 'll go on to that now . before we do that , i was just going to ask how the welsh government is paying due regard to the united nations convention on the rights of the child and , obviously , the right children and young people have to an education . i was going to ask you about the risk of inequality due to varying access to digital resources , which are so important in ensuring continuity of learning . kirsty williams am: you 're absolutely correct , chair . officials are very aware of our responsibilities towards children 's rights in this regard and we are doing whatever we can to ensure that children have an equal opportunity and have equal access to learning at this time . we are fortunate in the regard that , because of previous decisions and investments , we have a strong base on which to build because we have our hwb digital learning platform and because we have invested heavily in the national purchasing of microsoft office and google for education tools , which are available to all families . we have become the first , i think—we 're certainly the first in the uk , and i 'm not sure whether we 're the first across the world , but i think we probably are—to deploy , for instance , adobe spark nationally . but , obviously , access to hardware and connectivity is crucial at this time . officials are working with local authorities to ensure that all children have access to both the hardware and the connectivity they need to be able to participate in digital learning at this particular time . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . just a final question from me : how exactly are we communicating to parents what the expectations are of them in terms of delivering this education at home now ? are there , for example , guidelines on recommended hours of home learning per day of the week or volume of work to be completed ? how are we ensuring that parents know how best to lead their children through this at the moment ? kirsty williams am: firstly , can i recognise what a challenge this is ? we 've just heard from hefin who is carrying on his day job as the assembly member , but is obviously trying to do that as well as care for and provide learning for his children , and i know , chair , that you 're doing the same , and i 'm certainly trying to do the same , and it 's a real challenge , it 's not easy . as part of our 'stay safe . stay learning ' policy statement , advice is available to parents and carers on the hwb platform as to what they best can do to support their children . i think the really important message that i 've been trying to give to parents is not to be too hard on ourselves . i know that everybody is doing the best that they can in really challenging circumstances . and if they have concerns , they should be in contact with their child 's school , but we do have specific advice and guidance to parents on the hwb platform . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 're going to move on now to some questions on examinations from janet finch-saunders . janet , we ca n't hear you . i tell you what , we'll— . janet , do you want to try again ? no . okay , we 'll go on then to questions on higher education and post 16 , and we 'll come back to examinations , if that 's okay . suzy . suzy davies am: yes , thank you , chair . before we leave continuity of learning , do you mind if i just ask this one question ? lynne neagle am: no , that 's fine . yes , go on . suzy davies am: your comment , minister , on working with local authorities to make sure that individuals have hardware : can you just give us a bit of detail on what working with local authorities actually means ? in the process of that , is there any data gathering going on for those pupils who are being educated at home and the levels at which they 're engaging ? you know , are they sticking with it , or how many are dropping out ? because i think the two of those perhaps go together . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . so , i 'm hoping to make an announcement tomorrow , if not later on this week , about some specific details around support for hardware and connectivity . we 're working closely with local authorities to understand just that : to understand from the schools the number of schools that—and a number of them have already done this—have been lending chromebooks , ipads and laptops to children , and also identifying children who are not perhaps engaging in the activities that have been made available . and we 'll be doing two things to support local authorities . the first is to use the stock of equipment that they already have to be able to provide hardware to students . so , we have purchased on a national basis software that , when applied to an old piece of kit , essentially turns it into an out-of-the-box chromebook . because , as you can imagine , just like other things during a pandemic , there has been a rush to buy new stuff on the market and then there is a scramble and nobody can get what they need . so , we 're utilisng kit that is already available in schools and local authorities , and we will look to backfill that to schools at a later point out of our edtech investment programme . the other issue is , once a child has a chromebook or a laptop or a device , issues around connectivity . so , we 're also looking to purchase on a national level and distribute mi-fi connectivity , so students will be able to have access to wi-fi where they do n't have that already . that 's why we need to work closely with local authorities and schools to identify the level of that need and to make sure the stuff gets to the right children . one of the ways in which we are able to do that is to look at engagement in education . so , if a child has n't been engaging , is that because they just do n't want to and they 're voting with their feet—but clearly teachers need to have a conversation about that—or is that because the child simply does not have the ability to do that , and therefore we need to get that stuff out to those children ? so , rather than just simply leaving it to local authorities to scramble around in a very crowded market to get the stuff that they will need , we 're trying to do that on a national basis and deploy that to local authorities . so , our officials have been having conversations with each of our local authorities to ascertain what 's already happened , and there is very good practice out there—schools have been proactive—but where there are gaps , what can we do as a national government to be able to assist them to do that ? we are repurposing some of the resources that we had previously identified for our edtech investment , using those resources to fill this particular gap . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 're going to go back to janet now . i believe we 've got sound again , so janet can ask her questions on examinations . janet . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . i thought it was something at this end ; i 'm glad to hear it was n't . when will vocational learners know what is happening with their assessments , and how will those who have no choice but to wait for a vocational assessment be supported ? kirsty williams am: okay . that 's a very good question , janet , because i know that there has been some concern and anxiety around vocational qualification students and how quickly we 've been able to provide certainty for them . you 'll be aware that qualifications wales have been able , in the last week , to be able to give that greater clarity . so , they have announced that learners due to complete their essential skills wales qualifications will receive results . they have also published their approach to how health and social care qualifications will be managed , because , of course , those are part of the first set of reformed quals that we have done on a wales basis . you are right , there are a group of students who fall into the category where there are technical qualifications that require a certificate of competency to be industry ready—i hope i 've explained that correctly—and , therefore , we are working to understand how we can accommodate those students in these particular circumstances . but , at this stage , there may be some delay for that element of their qualification being delayed to a further date . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: yes . what are your expectations for how a-level and gcse qualifications will be awarded this summer , following the ministerial direction that you have issued to qualifications wales ? for example , how is an appropriate balance being taken between recognising the progress of pupils in their coursework , mock examinations , and other work to date , and also , the potential of pupils who might have performed particularly well in their examinations this summer ? kirsty williams am: well , janet , i understand—and today is a day where some students would have been undertaking practical examinations—i understand how devastating it has been to both students and teachers alike for the decision i had to take to cancel this summer 's exam series . but i 'm absolutely clear that was the only decision that could have been reached . qualifications wales has made it very clear—and for people who would like more information , i would urge them to look at qualifications wales 's website—how they will go about giving , allocating , and awarding a grade to our a-level and gcse students . firstly , teachers will be asked to submit a grade they believe that student would have obtained , should they have taken an exam . and , of course , teachers will have a range of data and their own professional judgment that they will use in awarding that grade . teachers will also be asked to rank students in order . once that information has been submitted to qualifications wales , there will be a process by which that data will be moderated ; moderated from centre to centre and across the nation , thus giving us the chance to award a student a fair grade whilst being , and remaining , true to ensuring that we have a robust qualifications system , and allowing those students who find themselves at a critical stage of their education , where they are looking to move on to the next stages—that they will have the grades that will allow them to make decisions about their future . janet finch-saunders am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you , janet . we 're going to go on now , then , to the questions on higher and further education from suzy davies . suzy . suzy davies am: thank you , chair . i suppose my first question just goes back to the 16-year-olds at the moment and those who are looking forward to either going to college , the older ones going to university , there 'll be apprenticeships , all kinds of future pathways for post 16. what 's happening at school level , or even at college level , to get those students ready for the next steps , because , obviously , they 're not in their usual environments and getting their usual programme of teaching ? kirsty williams am: no , that 's quite right , suzy , and i should have said in answer to janet 's question , as well—i 'm sure people already know , but just to get the point across—that a-level results day and gcse day will run as normal across not just wales , but england , wales and northern ireland , which is really important . you 're right , suzy—for those people that are coming to the end of one part of their education this is a particularly challenging time . you 'll be aware that , last week , on hwb , we were able to launch a programme for year 13 students to help them get ready for university . i 'm very grateful to the he sector in wales , who 've worked really hard with us on that . so , for instance , if you were a year 13 student or even a year 12 student that was thinking about or interested in areas around social policy , you could have tuned into a social policy lecturer at swansea university . if you go to the hwb website , you will be able to see that there are subject listings , everything from animal science through to law , politics , history and science , with links through to higher education and further education courses that students can avail themselves of . there 's also a section on preparation for essential study skills , whether that is report writing or academic writing . so , there is a range of activities and courses available for year 13 , so that children—'children ' ; they 're all children to me—young people can get themselves— . they do n't have to stop learning , and they can get themselves ready for the next stage of their education . again , for those children , perhaps , who are coming to the end of their gcses , there is a range of information , either within their own schools or within their local colleges about things that can keep them learning . so , for instance , i 'm aware of one school where you can go onto the website and there are recommendations of , for instance , what you could be reading over the summer if you 're interested in doing this particular a-level in september . i know that there are also moves in schools and in colleges to be able to make sure that those children do n't miss out on really important careers advice at this time , as well , and information , so they can make informed decisions . i know that people are working hard to link up children to advice services that are available so that they can make those really important future decisions with the advice of either a teacher or other professional so that they 've got those options . so , there is material out there and it 's growing all the time . this week , we were able to launch our virtual seren network . you 'll be aware that , for the last couple of years , we 've been able to send welsh children to the yale global summer school . clearly , that ca n't happen this year . that 's devastating for those year 12s who had worked so hard and had won a place on that programme . they will now be able to attend the yale global scholars programme virtually and remotely , because yale have moved that programme online . so , we 're developing materials and resources all of the time . suzy davies am: thank you for that answer . before i move on to my next question , can you give me some sort of sense of how that hwb domain is being populated ? where is all this information being sourced from ? presumably , they 'll be working with partners , but what does that look like ? kirsty williams am: oh , my goodness . yes , absolutely— suzy davies am: [ inaudible . ] kirsty williams am: yes , we 're working very hard . so , everything from our work with the bbc , for instance , and bbc bitesize through to our fe colleges and our he institutions , as well as other organisations in the third sector who are looking to provide those opportunities . can i just say that , last week , we were looking at , every day , in the region of well over 150,000 logins a day into hwb ? suzy davies am: well , that 's great . so there 's proactive populating of hwb . that 's what i was after . that 's great . just going back to some of janet 's questions and the assessed grades , i want to talk to you about the unconditional offers and where we are with that at the moment for entry to universities , because there 's going to be a scramble now of the available students for further education , but primarily higher education institutions , across the uk . is the moratorium on unconditional offers still standing ? are there conversations going on to extend that moratorium ? otherwise , this scramble is going to potentially negatively affect our universities quite considerably . kirsty williams am: yes , you 'll be aware that a moratorium does exist . it exists in this current context to 1 may . we continue to keep in close touch with colleagues in northern ireland , scotland and in the westminster government around these issues . officials are also in touch with ucas , and in the last couple of days i 've had at least three meetings with representatives of the welsh higher education sector to discuss these matters . suzy davies am: i just want to ask you now about students and their maintenance loan grants . i think they 're getting , around now , the money going into their bank account that they would normally have expected at this time of year . that 's right , yes ? kirsty williams am: that 's correct , yes . suzy davies am: what 's happening to those students who would normally be living in digs somewhere but are now living at home ? are they likely to be asked to reimburse part of the cost , because obviously it 's not as expensive to live at home as away , and what 's likely to be happening with the maintenance loans over the summer holiday period , potentially ? because we 've had a period now where students ca n't top up their maintenance loans by going out and working on weekends or working in the evenings , or whatever , so their income has been impacted . just in the round , what kind of conversations are happening around that ? again , it 's probably a four-nation approach , i would imagine . kirsty williams am: thank you , suzy . you are correct to say that our student support regime does allow for a lower payment to be made to those students that stay at home during their studies , but i want to reassure students that there will be no change to their student support payments just because they have left their universities and have decided to go home . there should be no change . also , we are continuing , it should be important to say , to pay education maintenance allowance at this time for our fe students that are eligible for that , even though , obviously , for ema there is an attendance requirement , but clearly that is not appropriate to enforce at the moment . you are correct—this is a worrying time for many students in higher education , especially for those who are looking to graduate at this time and are going out into an economy that has been tremendously badly hit by the pandemic . at this time , we continue to have conversations with nus wales about what can be done within a welsh context , but , as you quite rightly say , also within a uk context , to support students who may have been affected . we are continuing—on our webpage we have a frequently asked questions section that advises students in the first instance , especially when it comes , for instance , to the cost of accommodation—to have those discussions , and i 'm very grateful that , in some cases , some of our institutions have been able to waive or partially waive accommodation fees where students have vacated their accommodation and have returned to their usual home address . but we will continue to have dialogue with nus wales and with our counterparts across the country to look to see what more we can do to support students at this time . suzy davies am: thank you for that answer , and , yes , i was pleased to see that announcement through the nus as well , so well done to those accommodation providers who have a heart . i think we 'll all have seen the universities uk document that explains some of the difficulties that they 're going to be running into if this proceeds much further . my understanding is that the main emphasis at the moment is to try and get all the universities across the uk through this initial period of difficulty by releasing as much money as possible . i can see that your figure to the higher education funding council for wales was a little bit down on last year 's letter—not that there 's been a remit letter yet , but an indication . are you releasing that money earlier so that they can use it more swiftly , or does that not matter ? lynne neagle am: before you come in , minister , that is going to have to be the last question , just to make you aware of that , because we are coming up to the end of our time . suzy davies am: okay . that 's fine . kirsty williams am: of course , suzy , we are working closely with universities wales and have a lot of sympathy for the proposals that have come forward from universities uk , which wales 's universities have been a part of forming . stability in the first instance is really important to us , which is why we 've been able to give an indication to hefcw about resources that are available , and we 've been very clear to hefcw that we want to be as flexible as possible in how they use those resources to support institutions . that potentially would mean reprofiling the way in which money gets out to institutions , but clearly we will need to have an ongoing discussion about how we respond to the immediacy of the issues facing he , how we can get stability for the next academic year , and how we then can support the sector through what is a really challenging time for them . we will do that in a welsh context and we will continue to do that also in a uk context , because you will have seen the scale of some of the figures that have been talked about in terms of the impact on the he sector at this time . clearly , a four-nation approach to that will be crucial . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . well , we have come to the end of our time , and , as to anything that we did n't ask , we will have to write to the minister . can i just thank the minister and her officials for your attendance today ? we know how busy you are dealing with the pandemic and we very much welcome this opportunity to have this discussion with you . so , thank you , minister and officials for your time . as usual , you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . diolch yn fawr . kirsty williams am: diolch yn fawr , chair . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then . can i propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? okay . i see that members are content , so we will now proceed to meet in private .

kirsty williams am first introduced the difficult situation as being face by these group of children , whose educational journey would be slightly different with others . and it was always important that children could have an equal opportunity and have equal access to learning at this time . to tackle the challenge , hwb digital learning platform had been heavily invested and the government had also invested heavily in the national purchasing of microsoft office and google for education tools , which were available to all families . meanwhile , connection to the internet would further be assured .

what did working with local authorities actually mean ? </s> lynne neagle am: good afternoon , everyone . welcome to the first virtual meeting of the children , young people and education committee . in accordance with standing order 34.19 , i determine that the public are excluded from the committee 's meeting , in order to protect public health . in accordance with standing order 34.21 , notice of this decision was included in the agenda for this meeting , which was published last friday . this meeting is , however , being broadcast live on senedd.tv , with all participants joining via video conference . a record of the proceedings will be published as usual . aside from the procedural adaptation relating to conducting proceedings remotely , all other standing order requirements for committees remain in place . the meeting is bilingual , and simultaneous translation from welsh to english is available . can i remind all participants that the microphones will be controlled centrally , so there 's no need to turn them on and off individually ? can i ask whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . thank you . can i just then , again , note for the record that , if , for any reason , i drop out of the meeting , the committee has agreed that dawn bowden am will temporarily chair while i try to rejoin ? item 2 , then , this afternoon is an evidence session with the welsh government on the impact of the coronavirus epidemic on education in wales . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams am , minister for education , steve davies , director of the education directorate , and huw morris , who is group director , skills , higher education and lifelong learning . can i welcome you all and thank you for attending ? minister , i understand you 'd like to make a short opening statement . kirsty williams am: thank you very much , lynne . and indeed , if i could just begin by , once again , putting on the record my gratitude to everyone who is helping us get through this pandemic . there are a vast number of people who are keeping our school hubs open , looking after vulnerable children , and the children of key workers . because of them , and their efforts , those key workers are able to carry on their critical roles in responding to covid-19 . i am extremely proud of the way that members of the school community have gone above and beyond . they have kept their schools open out of hours , over the weekends , on bank holidays , and easter . and it is really heartening and humbling to see the way that they have responded to this crisis . and there are teachers , teaching assistants , and many others , who are helping our children and their parents to keep learning at home . i know that home schooling is n't easy , so i want to say also thank you to parents and carers for their efforts at this time . by keeping their children at home , they are helping us to keep people safe , and reducing pressure on our education system , and on our nhs . be in no doubt , we are facing many challenges because of this pandemic . my primary concern is , and always will be , the health and well-being of our children , of our young people , and of all the staff in our education settings . and i am very grateful to everyone who is supporting us in these endeavours . thank you very much—diolch yn fawr . and i 'm now happy to answer questions that members of the committee may have this afternoon . lynne neagle am: thank you very much , minister . i 'm sure that the committee echoes the heartfelt thanks you have just given then . the first questions we 've got this afternoon are from hefin david . hefin david am: good afternoon , minister . with regard to your five principles , which you 've set out today , regarding when schools will reopen , they 're very clear that they require a judgment from you . so could you outline when you think that schools might reopen ? kirsty williams am: thank you , hefin . i am very clear that schools will move to a new phase—because , already , schools are open in many settings ; we will move to a new phase when it is safe to do so and when i have advice from the chief medical officer and the chief scientific officer that it is safe to do so . i have made very clear in my statement that that is not imminent . i know that in some cases there has been speculation that a return to normal could be with us quite shortly . i 'm clear that a return to normal is not imminent , and therefore i 'm not in a position to give a date as to when we will see more schools opening up to more children . hefin david am: have you been given any indication at all by the chief medical officer as to when , in the longer term , it might be ? kirsty williams am: no , i have not been given a date . what i have done today is publish the principles that will aid me in , as you said , me making a decision . so , clearly , we will be relying on the advice of our medical and scientific advisers , but the principles are very clear . firstly , we will need to consider any decision to have more children returning to school in the context of the safety and the physical and the emotional well-being of children and young people and the staff . obviously , i ca n't make a decision regarding education in isolation . it will have to be taken in the context of the wider welsh government response to dealing with this pandemic . thirdly , it is absolutely crucial in making any decisions that we have clearly communicated that to parents and to staff , on the information that we have used to reach any decisions , to build confidence for parents and professionals , but also to give them time to plan . it will be impossible to move quickly to new ways of working . and we also have to look at—and it 's been paraphrased quite a lot today—if we are looking at certain groups of children accessing more education within a school setting , which groups they should be . and , finally , how do we operationalise that ? how do we make those settings as safe as they possibly can be , and how do we tackle some of the difficult challenges of everything from ensuring that we have adequate numbers of workforce available , to the very real questions about how you would do social distancing in the context of education , school transport issues , how you would avoid people gathering at the school gate , for instance ? so , there are very practical issues that would need to be considered and thought through very , very carefully before we could return , before what we could see is a move from where we are now to the next phase of education , and new approaches to what schooling may look like . but , again , i must be absolutely clear to you , members of the committee , and to people watching : it is not feasible , in this sense , that we would move from where we are now to what all of us would regard as normal education and what the operation of schools looked like before the start of this pandemic . hefin david am: so , what is clear from what you 've said is that it 's going to be phased return . i would assume that would be the most vulnerable—perhaps additional learning needs pupils would return first . just reading some of the things that you 've said today , can you answer that question ? and can i also ask : you said that guiding principle no . 3 will be having the confidence of parents , staff and students , based on evidence and information , so they can plan ahead . what will that evidence and information be , and how will you know that you 've got the confidence of parents to return ? kirsty williams am: well , as i said , primarily , we will need to take a lead from our scientific and medical advisers . i want to also say that we are obviously working on a four-nation basis and keeping in very close contact with my counterparts in northern ireland , scotland and england . but we 're also looking beyond the united kingdom to approaches to education in the face of this pandemic . members are aware that we as a nation are a member of the atlantic rim collaboratory . so , recently i was able to talk to educationalists and ministers in iceland , other parts of europe , north america , south america and australia . so , we 're also looking at best international evidence in this regard . and , clearly , we will need to be very clear , as today is an attempt to be very clear with parents and our teaching professionals , and the unions that represent them , about the basis of that evidence . hefin david am: and could i just ask , with regard to the principles , do they then apply to further education and universities ? kirsty williams am: well , of course , when we are discussing these challenges , we are doing that with our colleagues in both the school sector but also our colleagues in the fe sector , and we 're in close contact with colleagues in higher education to share thinking on these matters . hefin david am: but these principles do n't apply in those circumstances ; these are principles for schools only . kirsty williams am: these principles are applying to both , and our work in this area is applying to both schools and fe colleges . clearly , universities , as independent institutions , we would n't be able to dictate to . but i want to be absolutely clear : we are working with representatives of the he sector to include them in this work . and i have received , not assurances , but from discussions that i 've had with universities wales and vice-chancellors , they are very keen to be kept apprised of these approaches , because they may well wish to implement something similar within their own institutions . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got a couple of supplementaries now ; firstly , from suzy davies , and then i 'm going to go to siân gwenllian . suzy . no , we ca n't hear suzy . suzy ? no . i 'll go to siân , then , and then i 'll come back to suzy . siân . hefin david am: chair , i do n't think my microphone is muted . sian gwenllian am: okay . i 'll move on to my question to kirsty williams . now , it is clear that any decisions that need to be taken on reopening schools would have to be made in the context of all of the other issues that the welsh government has to take into account . and it is entirely clear that the approach of government towards testing has n't been sufficiently developed for us to even start to think about removing restrictions . so , would n't it be dangerous , if truth be told , to start to discuss reopening schools when we have n't had the necessary testing in place for the majority of the population ? and does n't it convey a mixed message that we 're starting to relax some of these restrictions when , in reality , the restrictions are still in place and still need to be in place robustly ? kirsty williams am: first of all , thank you very much , siân , for that important question . can i be absolutely clear , and i thought i had been pretty clear in answering hefin david , that we are not relaxing any of the restrictions with regard to education ? as i said to hefin , it is not imminent that we would see a further phase in the next stage of education here in wales . what i have done today is to provide clarity on the nature of the principles that i would use when coming to any discussion . it is the responsibility of me , as the minister , and indeed of the wider government , to begin to think about planning for the future . but i have been absolutely clear : we are not moving to an imminent change in how education is operating at the moment . and i 'm also very , very clear that should we be given the opportunity to see more children in our schools , i will only do that when it is safe for me to do so , when i 've been advised by the cmo that i am able to do that , and we have given sufficient time and planning to the sector to respond . it is not going to be easy , and we will need to give them , as a sector , time to be able to address . but if i have not been clear enough , let me say it again : we are not relaxing any issues around schools at present , nor is that imminent . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , i think we can try going to you again now . suzy davies am: thank you . minister , in your consideration of introducing a phased return to school , in due course , have you taken into consideration how things like school absences are going to be managed ? because , regardless of the amount of good work you do on messaging , there will still be some families that do n't realise that going back to school is for their particular family . will there be a relaxation of , effectively , what we would call truancy rules ? or is that something that schools will be getting guidance on much up-front ? kirsty williams am: thank you , suzy . as i said in my statement earlier today , returning to school will not be a return to normal , and in recognition of this , i 've already made it clear that i will seek , in all opportunities , to reduce the burdens on school . that includes various data collection , the suspension of performance measures and removing the requirement to undertake literacy and numeracy testing , and , clearly , school attendance will want to be an important factor of that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . i 'm keen to go on now to talk about the current situation as being faced by our children and young people in schools with some questions from siân gwenllian . siân . sian gwenllian am: since yesterday , the welsh government has started publishing data on the number of schools that are open , the number of children attending those schools , and the number of staff involved , and they have been making this information available as per capita of the population . on average , i think it 's 1 per cent of the children of wales that actually attend these locations , and some 5 per cent of the staff . so , can you analyse those figures a little further ? can you tell us how many children , according to this data , are children of key workers , and how many are vulnerable children ? kirsty williams am: thank you very much , siân . as you quite rightly say , on average , we have 518 school hubs open each day , with up to 4,200 children attending . we have seen an increase in the number of attendances since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term . we have approximately 5.6 per cent of the teaching population working in those hubs , and at present , 85 per cent of the children who are attending are the children of key workers , the remainder being vulnerable children . so , we are now averaging 600 vulnerable children per day . these are small numbers , but we have seen an increase in those numbers since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term . sian gwenllian am: okay . i 'm sure we 'll return to that point a little later on . how much confidence do you therefore have that the arrangements are effective in terms of the safety of staff and children at these locations ? kirsty williams am: thank you once again for that . the smooth operation of the hubs , with regard to health and safety , is , of course , of paramount importance . what we have seen since schools closed for traditional statutory purposes and moving to their repurposed function—we have seen a change of pattern over time . so , following my announcement on , i believe , 18 march , the week after , we saw a large number of settings open and operating . as local authorities have been able to understand the demand for those places—from critical workers and vulnerable children—we have seen more local authorities move to a hub model , and we have been able to publish guidance to local authorities on how issues around safe working in those hubs should be followed , and we 've been able to give guidance in that regard . local authorities are asked by us to report any incidents where they are concerned about operation issues on the ground . sian gwenllian am: as i mentioned earlier , testing is crucially important in dealing with this crisis . so , how many school staff have been tested for covid because they may have experienced symptoms and so on ? and how many of those have tested positive ? kirsty williams am: my understanding from public health wales is that 15 teachers have been tested for covid-19 , and i believe two of those results have come back as positive . can i make it absolutely clear , the week before last , welsh government issued new guidance around who should be tested ? i want to make it absolutely clear to those professionals working in our hubs , if they or a member of their family are exhibiting any of the symptoms , however mild , of covid-19 , they can and they should be tested . sian gwenllian am: okay . and the final question from me on this : how important is testing going to be in this next phase , as you start to think about relaxing restrictions ? kirsty williams am: obviously , the ability to be able to test , to trace and to quarantine will be critical to the next phase and will be a very , very important and significant building block in all aspects of the government 's work to respond to this pandemic . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you , minister , and thank you , siân . we 've got some questions now on the impact on particular groups of children , from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . just following on from your answer to siân gwenllian earlier about the number of vulnerable children in school , what 's being done specifically to facilitate more of those children coming into a school setting or hub at the moment ? i 'm thinking about the 600 you 've talked about , and i know , in one of my local authority areas of merthyr , which is a very small authority , we 're talking about the number of children identified as vulnerable running into thousands , not hundreds , and that 's just in one authority . so , this is a particularly difficult issue to address , i appreciate , but how are we going to get more of these children into the hubs ? kirsty williams am: okay , dawn . the first thing to say is that the issue of vulnerable children attending settings is one that is a challenge to not just wales , but also to my colleagues in northern ireland , scotland and england . i 'm pleased to say that we are working across government departments—myself , obviously , and colleagues in education—with colleagues in social services to have a cross-government approach to these issues . i think the first thing to say is that these are complex messages , because the overriding public health message from our government has been to stay at home and children should be kept at home as much as possible , and to make sure that our hubs run smoothly , safely and effectively , we do need to limit the number of children who are attending those hubs . so , firstly , the fact that numbers are small is in some ways a success of our public health messages , because parents have been heeding those messages , but , of course , all of us will have concerns for some children who remain at home . so , i 'm pleased to say that we have seen a doubling in the last week of the number of children . so , although numbers are small , they have doubled over the course of the last week . we 're working with local authorities and they have assured us that children and young people with a social worker have been risk assessed on a multi-agency basis and are receiving support in a number of ways , and that includes having conversations about some of those children attending the hubs . they 're also looking to support in other ways . of course , some of our children who would be classed as vulnerable—and our definition of 'vulnerable ' is one that is shared between the systems in england and wales—could be children with a statement of special educational needs . for some of those children who , perhaps , have very intense health needs , actually , staying at home is the appropriate thing for that child and that family to do , and we 're looking to support families , and local authorities and local education systems are looking to support families , in a number of ways . we also know that just because you do n't have a social worker or a statement of special educational needs does not mean that a child may not be vulnerable , and schools are very aware of the needs of those children and have been carrying out regular telephone check-ins where they can—if the age of the child is appropriate—just to keep in touch with those families and those individual children . but we will continue to work across government to encourage , where it is appropriate , children to attend settings , and , if it is not appropriate for children to be in a setting , that there is contact with those children and young people to ensure that they remain , and their families remain , supported . dawn bowden am: thank you , minister . it 's encouraging to hear you talk about the ongoing safeguarding of children that are at home and i assume , within that , appropriate referral mechanisms are still in place if teachers or anybody has any particular concern about a child . similarly , with special educational needs , whereas some of those children benefit clearly from a one-to-one provision in a school , and they may not respond as well to remote working , or remote contact , with an sen advisor , are you considering in any way any relaxation of the lockdown rule in particular for those children in terms of them being able to access the support that they need for their particular educational needs ? kirsty williams am: well , first of all , dawn , you 're absolutely right : my expectation is that schools should remain in contact with children and continue to identify vulnerable children , and schools should continue to refer children to children 's services if they have any concerns , and that would also , of course , be the case for youth workers who may be keeping in contact with children . so , there is a professional expectation on all those that are working with our children and young people that , despite the circumstances they find themselves in , they should continue to report and refer cases if they see anything or hear or are told anything that makes them concerned about a child 's welfare and safety . with regard to children with additional learning needs , i am aware that that can present a number of challenges to families and children , and perhaps steve davies could give some further details . we have been keen to work with local authorities to ensure specialist provision , where that is appropriate—so , if i could give you an example of my own local authority in powys , they have two specialist centres available for children with more profound additional learning needs , and those centres are available—recognising , however , that , even with the provision of specialist hubs , it can be a challenge for some children with additional learning needs to find themselves outside of a routine . hubs are often staffed on a rota basis and therefore children could be faced with staff that they are unfamiliar with . so , even when local authorities—and the vast , vast majority of them do—have specialist services in place , sometimes that might not be the best thing for a child 's health and well-being . but perhaps steve can give us further details of the conversations that have been taking place with directors of education to ensure that children with additional learning needs have access to the hubs and specialist support . steve . steve davies: yes , myself and colleague albert heaney—colleague-director—have been in regular touch with directors of education and directors of social services to make sure that these children and young people 's needs are catered for . we are very aware of all of the special schools—profound and multiple learning difficulties , ebd schools and pupil referral units—that have been kept open in their own way , but also , in some cases , as hubs , to deliver those services for those children 's needs , and we 're pleased that the directors and the local authorities have responded so constructively . so , we have the details of every school that 's open , the pupils who are attending , and we are clear that the risk assessments that the minister referred to for children with special needs , as well as wider vulnerable groups—they are having risk assessments to make sure that , where there is a need identified for a pupil that is not currently attending a hub , then the local authority can be working with that child and with the parents . lynne neagle am: thank you , steve . dawn . dawn bowden am: thank you . just two more questions . one is around emotional and mental health difficulties being experienced by children and young people at the moment . now , there was a very welcome announcement of £1.25 million pounds for school counselling . how is that , in practical terms , being applied if those children are not actually in school ? kirsty williams am: you 're right , dawn : we have to consider how we can support children not only in their learning during this time , but also to recognise the very real impact that the pandemic will have on all of our mental health and well-being—recognising , of course , it is absolutely natural for all of us , including children and young people , to have fears and anxieties at this time . that 's a natural reaction to the situation that we find ourselves in . but , of course , there are issues around those children that would have currently been receiving school counselling , and also being able to be in a position to respond to a potential growth in the number of children that are receiving support . so , the additional money will be made available to local authorities to be able to increase and ramp up services to support children and families . in the immediacy , of course , that will have to be done in different ways than perhaps we 've traditionally delivered services in the past , because of social distancing and lockdown rules , but we want to get some of these systems in place now , rather than waiting for everything to go back to normal . we need to be able to plan to offer services in the here and now , but also be able to plan for what potentially could be an increase in the demand of those services . so , we 've been in close touch with local authorities , asking them what they believe that they will need and how they can use additional financial resources , and we 've been very pleased to be able to secure that for them . dawn bowden am: so , that would include things like telephone and video support as well , i guess , then . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . so , that would include remote counselling as in a fashion that we 're doing now , but also , as and when some of the restrictions are perhaps removed , looking at an enhanced family therapy , or a therapy approach . so , when we talk about counselling , i think it 's important to recognise that there will be some flexibility around this money and it does not necessarily mean that local authorities have to use it on a one-to-one basis . that might not be appropriate for some children , especially our younger children and their families , and they can use that money to provide counselling or therapy—in the widest possible terms—that is the best method to support individual children and their families . but , clearly , we 're having to do that in the confines of lockdown and social distancing at the moment . some of that money can also be used to support the professional learning and the professional development of counsellors , because , of course , they may be being asked to work in a different way and we need to make sure that they have the appropriate skills and abilities to do that . dawn bowden am: thank you . thank you , minister . lynne neagle am: dawn , before you ask your final question , i 've got a couple of supplementaries—firstly from suzy , and then from hefin . suzy davies am: oh , thank you . my question goes back to the comment you made earlier , minister , about the number of children doubling—sorry , vulnerable children doubling—after the easter break , if we can call it that . so , what i 'm after is a sense of churn in these establishments . so , was that figure a recovery of a number of children that had been there before the easter break , and are the people who are there still the same people as were there right at the beginning of the crisis and the lockdown ? kirsty williams am: suzy , what i believe that we 're seeing in our schools is new pupils coming into school . so , there has been , i know , a real effort on behalf of educationalists and social services staff to really reach out to families and to make sure that they 're aware of the support that is available out there for them and their children , and to be able to give them the confidence that there are—that the hubs are available for them . so , we have seen an increase in children . those numbers are still small and , i believe , potentially , there is an opportunity to build on that and to have further conversations with families about the support that is available for vulnerable children , whether that— . that vulnerability , of course , can cover a whole range of issues . as i said when we last met , this is a constantly evolving situation . the initial response—local authorities and schools worked incredibly fast and incredibly quickly to set up these hubs . we 've seen an evolution in the weeks since that time and i am sure that we will continue to see some evolution in approaches . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin , you had a supplementary—briefly , please . hefin david am: yes , very quickly . i 've been listening to the answers with regard to vulnerable children , following on from that answer . i 'm at home with a vulnerable child—a child who has got additional learning needs . she 's got autism ; she 's four . i imagine there are many , many parents in exactly the same position—i 've heard from them . i have n't heard anything from the school or from the local authority . should i have heard something or should i be proactive in pursuing it ? kirsty williams am: i do n't want to comment on personal cases— hefin david am: but there are many others in this position . kirsty williams am: —but what i would say is that if parents have concerns and want to have a conversation about what support is available to them and their children , they should contact their local education authority to have a conversation as to what support is available . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . dawn , final question , please . dawn bowden am: yes , my last question is really about the potential for the attainment gap between disadvantaged pupils and their more affluent peers . is that a concern for you ? i 'm thinking particularly in relation to those less affluent families in having access to technology and so on . what kind of concerns do you have about that and what are we looking to do to try to ensure that that does n't actually play out ? kirsty williams am: thank you , dawn . all of the statistics would tell us that learning loss and the gap , potentially , will affect those more vulnerable children the most . clearly , we will want to consider that as we think about what the new normal for education may look like , or as we develop into future phases . depending on where that child is in their educational journey , of course , the needs and the potential for loss are slightly different . so , for instance , when we 're thinking about very young children , we could be thinking about a lack of social interaction and the development of oracy skills . of course , that , potentially , then will have a knock-on to their ability to learn to read and then to write , for instance . for other children who are , perhaps , older and heading towards formal examinations , the challenge when they return to school will be a slightly different one . i 'm not sure , chair , whether you want me to give some further details about our continuity-of-learning plan and how we are looking to address digital disadvantage now , or whether there are questions later . lynne neagle am: well , i 've got a question on that coming up , so , if it 's okay , dawn , we 'll go on to that now . before we do that , i was just going to ask how the welsh government is paying due regard to the united nations convention on the rights of the child and , obviously , the right children and young people have to an education . i was going to ask you about the risk of inequality due to varying access to digital resources , which are so important in ensuring continuity of learning . kirsty williams am: you 're absolutely correct , chair . officials are very aware of our responsibilities towards children 's rights in this regard and we are doing whatever we can to ensure that children have an equal opportunity and have equal access to learning at this time . we are fortunate in the regard that , because of previous decisions and investments , we have a strong base on which to build because we have our hwb digital learning platform and because we have invested heavily in the national purchasing of microsoft office and google for education tools , which are available to all families . we have become the first , i think—we 're certainly the first in the uk , and i 'm not sure whether we 're the first across the world , but i think we probably are—to deploy , for instance , adobe spark nationally . but , obviously , access to hardware and connectivity is crucial at this time . officials are working with local authorities to ensure that all children have access to both the hardware and the connectivity they need to be able to participate in digital learning at this particular time . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . just a final question from me : how exactly are we communicating to parents what the expectations are of them in terms of delivering this education at home now ? are there , for example , guidelines on recommended hours of home learning per day of the week or volume of work to be completed ? how are we ensuring that parents know how best to lead their children through this at the moment ? kirsty williams am: firstly , can i recognise what a challenge this is ? we 've just heard from hefin who is carrying on his day job as the assembly member , but is obviously trying to do that as well as care for and provide learning for his children , and i know , chair , that you 're doing the same , and i 'm certainly trying to do the same , and it 's a real challenge , it 's not easy . as part of our 'stay safe . stay learning ' policy statement , advice is available to parents and carers on the hwb platform as to what they best can do to support their children . i think the really important message that i 've been trying to give to parents is not to be too hard on ourselves . i know that everybody is doing the best that they can in really challenging circumstances . and if they have concerns , they should be in contact with their child 's school , but we do have specific advice and guidance to parents on the hwb platform . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 're going to move on now to some questions on examinations from janet finch-saunders . janet , we ca n't hear you . i tell you what , we'll— . janet , do you want to try again ? no . okay , we 'll go on then to questions on higher education and post 16 , and we 'll come back to examinations , if that 's okay . suzy . suzy davies am: yes , thank you , chair . before we leave continuity of learning , do you mind if i just ask this one question ? lynne neagle am: no , that 's fine . yes , go on . suzy davies am: your comment , minister , on working with local authorities to make sure that individuals have hardware : can you just give us a bit of detail on what working with local authorities actually means ? in the process of that , is there any data gathering going on for those pupils who are being educated at home and the levels at which they 're engaging ? you know , are they sticking with it , or how many are dropping out ? because i think the two of those perhaps go together . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . so , i 'm hoping to make an announcement tomorrow , if not later on this week , about some specific details around support for hardware and connectivity . we 're working closely with local authorities to understand just that : to understand from the schools the number of schools that—and a number of them have already done this—have been lending chromebooks , ipads and laptops to children , and also identifying children who are not perhaps engaging in the activities that have been made available . and we 'll be doing two things to support local authorities . the first is to use the stock of equipment that they already have to be able to provide hardware to students . so , we have purchased on a national basis software that , when applied to an old piece of kit , essentially turns it into an out-of-the-box chromebook . because , as you can imagine , just like other things during a pandemic , there has been a rush to buy new stuff on the market and then there is a scramble and nobody can get what they need . so , we 're utilisng kit that is already available in schools and local authorities , and we will look to backfill that to schools at a later point out of our edtech investment programme . the other issue is , once a child has a chromebook or a laptop or a device , issues around connectivity . so , we 're also looking to purchase on a national level and distribute mi-fi connectivity , so students will be able to have access to wi-fi where they do n't have that already . that 's why we need to work closely with local authorities and schools to identify the level of that need and to make sure the stuff gets to the right children . one of the ways in which we are able to do that is to look at engagement in education . so , if a child has n't been engaging , is that because they just do n't want to and they 're voting with their feet—but clearly teachers need to have a conversation about that—or is that because the child simply does not have the ability to do that , and therefore we need to get that stuff out to those children ? so , rather than just simply leaving it to local authorities to scramble around in a very crowded market to get the stuff that they will need , we 're trying to do that on a national basis and deploy that to local authorities . so , our officials have been having conversations with each of our local authorities to ascertain what 's already happened , and there is very good practice out there—schools have been proactive—but where there are gaps , what can we do as a national government to be able to assist them to do that ? we are repurposing some of the resources that we had previously identified for our edtech investment , using those resources to fill this particular gap . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 're going to go back to janet now . i believe we 've got sound again , so janet can ask her questions on examinations . janet . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . i thought it was something at this end ; i 'm glad to hear it was n't . when will vocational learners know what is happening with their assessments , and how will those who have no choice but to wait for a vocational assessment be supported ? kirsty williams am: okay . that 's a very good question , janet , because i know that there has been some concern and anxiety around vocational qualification students and how quickly we 've been able to provide certainty for them . you 'll be aware that qualifications wales have been able , in the last week , to be able to give that greater clarity . so , they have announced that learners due to complete their essential skills wales qualifications will receive results . they have also published their approach to how health and social care qualifications will be managed , because , of course , those are part of the first set of reformed quals that we have done on a wales basis . you are right , there are a group of students who fall into the category where there are technical qualifications that require a certificate of competency to be industry ready—i hope i 've explained that correctly—and , therefore , we are working to understand how we can accommodate those students in these particular circumstances . but , at this stage , there may be some delay for that element of their qualification being delayed to a further date . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: yes . what are your expectations for how a-level and gcse qualifications will be awarded this summer , following the ministerial direction that you have issued to qualifications wales ? for example , how is an appropriate balance being taken between recognising the progress of pupils in their coursework , mock examinations , and other work to date , and also , the potential of pupils who might have performed particularly well in their examinations this summer ? kirsty williams am: well , janet , i understand—and today is a day where some students would have been undertaking practical examinations—i understand how devastating it has been to both students and teachers alike for the decision i had to take to cancel this summer 's exam series . but i 'm absolutely clear that was the only decision that could have been reached . qualifications wales has made it very clear—and for people who would like more information , i would urge them to look at qualifications wales 's website—how they will go about giving , allocating , and awarding a grade to our a-level and gcse students . firstly , teachers will be asked to submit a grade they believe that student would have obtained , should they have taken an exam . and , of course , teachers will have a range of data and their own professional judgment that they will use in awarding that grade . teachers will also be asked to rank students in order . once that information has been submitted to qualifications wales , there will be a process by which that data will be moderated ; moderated from centre to centre and across the nation , thus giving us the chance to award a student a fair grade whilst being , and remaining , true to ensuring that we have a robust qualifications system , and allowing those students who find themselves at a critical stage of their education , where they are looking to move on to the next stages—that they will have the grades that will allow them to make decisions about their future . janet finch-saunders am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you , janet . we 're going to go on now , then , to the questions on higher and further education from suzy davies . suzy . suzy davies am: thank you , chair . i suppose my first question just goes back to the 16-year-olds at the moment and those who are looking forward to either going to college , the older ones going to university , there 'll be apprenticeships , all kinds of future pathways for post 16. what 's happening at school level , or even at college level , to get those students ready for the next steps , because , obviously , they 're not in their usual environments and getting their usual programme of teaching ? kirsty williams am: no , that 's quite right , suzy , and i should have said in answer to janet 's question , as well—i 'm sure people already know , but just to get the point across—that a-level results day and gcse day will run as normal across not just wales , but england , wales and northern ireland , which is really important . you 're right , suzy—for those people that are coming to the end of one part of their education this is a particularly challenging time . you 'll be aware that , last week , on hwb , we were able to launch a programme for year 13 students to help them get ready for university . i 'm very grateful to the he sector in wales , who 've worked really hard with us on that . so , for instance , if you were a year 13 student or even a year 12 student that was thinking about or interested in areas around social policy , you could have tuned into a social policy lecturer at swansea university . if you go to the hwb website , you will be able to see that there are subject listings , everything from animal science through to law , politics , history and science , with links through to higher education and further education courses that students can avail themselves of . there 's also a section on preparation for essential study skills , whether that is report writing or academic writing . so , there is a range of activities and courses available for year 13 , so that children—'children ' ; they 're all children to me—young people can get themselves— . they do n't have to stop learning , and they can get themselves ready for the next stage of their education . again , for those children , perhaps , who are coming to the end of their gcses , there is a range of information , either within their own schools or within their local colleges about things that can keep them learning . so , for instance , i 'm aware of one school where you can go onto the website and there are recommendations of , for instance , what you could be reading over the summer if you 're interested in doing this particular a-level in september . i know that there are also moves in schools and in colleges to be able to make sure that those children do n't miss out on really important careers advice at this time , as well , and information , so they can make informed decisions . i know that people are working hard to link up children to advice services that are available so that they can make those really important future decisions with the advice of either a teacher or other professional so that they 've got those options . so , there is material out there and it 's growing all the time . this week , we were able to launch our virtual seren network . you 'll be aware that , for the last couple of years , we 've been able to send welsh children to the yale global summer school . clearly , that ca n't happen this year . that 's devastating for those year 12s who had worked so hard and had won a place on that programme . they will now be able to attend the yale global scholars programme virtually and remotely , because yale have moved that programme online . so , we 're developing materials and resources all of the time . suzy davies am: thank you for that answer . before i move on to my next question , can you give me some sort of sense of how that hwb domain is being populated ? where is all this information being sourced from ? presumably , they 'll be working with partners , but what does that look like ? kirsty williams am: oh , my goodness . yes , absolutely— suzy davies am: [ inaudible . ] kirsty williams am: yes , we 're working very hard . so , everything from our work with the bbc , for instance , and bbc bitesize through to our fe colleges and our he institutions , as well as other organisations in the third sector who are looking to provide those opportunities . can i just say that , last week , we were looking at , every day , in the region of well over 150,000 logins a day into hwb ? suzy davies am: well , that 's great . so there 's proactive populating of hwb . that 's what i was after . that 's great . just going back to some of janet 's questions and the assessed grades , i want to talk to you about the unconditional offers and where we are with that at the moment for entry to universities , because there 's going to be a scramble now of the available students for further education , but primarily higher education institutions , across the uk . is the moratorium on unconditional offers still standing ? are there conversations going on to extend that moratorium ? otherwise , this scramble is going to potentially negatively affect our universities quite considerably . kirsty williams am: yes , you 'll be aware that a moratorium does exist . it exists in this current context to 1 may . we continue to keep in close touch with colleagues in northern ireland , scotland and in the westminster government around these issues . officials are also in touch with ucas , and in the last couple of days i 've had at least three meetings with representatives of the welsh higher education sector to discuss these matters . suzy davies am: i just want to ask you now about students and their maintenance loan grants . i think they 're getting , around now , the money going into their bank account that they would normally have expected at this time of year . that 's right , yes ? kirsty williams am: that 's correct , yes . suzy davies am: what 's happening to those students who would normally be living in digs somewhere but are now living at home ? are they likely to be asked to reimburse part of the cost , because obviously it 's not as expensive to live at home as away , and what 's likely to be happening with the maintenance loans over the summer holiday period , potentially ? because we 've had a period now where students ca n't top up their maintenance loans by going out and working on weekends or working in the evenings , or whatever , so their income has been impacted . just in the round , what kind of conversations are happening around that ? again , it 's probably a four-nation approach , i would imagine . kirsty williams am: thank you , suzy . you are correct to say that our student support regime does allow for a lower payment to be made to those students that stay at home during their studies , but i want to reassure students that there will be no change to their student support payments just because they have left their universities and have decided to go home . there should be no change . also , we are continuing , it should be important to say , to pay education maintenance allowance at this time for our fe students that are eligible for that , even though , obviously , for ema there is an attendance requirement , but clearly that is not appropriate to enforce at the moment . you are correct—this is a worrying time for many students in higher education , especially for those who are looking to graduate at this time and are going out into an economy that has been tremendously badly hit by the pandemic . at this time , we continue to have conversations with nus wales about what can be done within a welsh context , but , as you quite rightly say , also within a uk context , to support students who may have been affected . we are continuing—on our webpage we have a frequently asked questions section that advises students in the first instance , especially when it comes , for instance , to the cost of accommodation—to have those discussions , and i 'm very grateful that , in some cases , some of our institutions have been able to waive or partially waive accommodation fees where students have vacated their accommodation and have returned to their usual home address . but we will continue to have dialogue with nus wales and with our counterparts across the country to look to see what more we can do to support students at this time . suzy davies am: thank you for that answer , and , yes , i was pleased to see that announcement through the nus as well , so well done to those accommodation providers who have a heart . i think we 'll all have seen the universities uk document that explains some of the difficulties that they 're going to be running into if this proceeds much further . my understanding is that the main emphasis at the moment is to try and get all the universities across the uk through this initial period of difficulty by releasing as much money as possible . i can see that your figure to the higher education funding council for wales was a little bit down on last year 's letter—not that there 's been a remit letter yet , but an indication . are you releasing that money earlier so that they can use it more swiftly , or does that not matter ? lynne neagle am: before you come in , minister , that is going to have to be the last question , just to make you aware of that , because we are coming up to the end of our time . suzy davies am: okay . that 's fine . kirsty williams am: of course , suzy , we are working closely with universities wales and have a lot of sympathy for the proposals that have come forward from universities uk , which wales 's universities have been a part of forming . stability in the first instance is really important to us , which is why we 've been able to give an indication to hefcw about resources that are available , and we 've been very clear to hefcw that we want to be as flexible as possible in how they use those resources to support institutions . that potentially would mean reprofiling the way in which money gets out to institutions , but clearly we will need to have an ongoing discussion about how we respond to the immediacy of the issues facing he , how we can get stability for the next academic year , and how we then can support the sector through what is a really challenging time for them . we will do that in a welsh context and we will continue to do that also in a uk context , because you will have seen the scale of some of the figures that have been talked about in terms of the impact on the he sector at this time . clearly , a four-nation approach to that will be crucial . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . well , we have come to the end of our time , and , as to anything that we did n't ask , we will have to write to the minister . can i just thank the minister and her officials for your attendance today ? we know how busy you are dealing with the pandemic and we very much welcome this opportunity to have this discussion with you . so , thank you , minister and officials for your time . as usual , you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . diolch yn fawr . kirsty williams am: diolch yn fawr , chair . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then . can i propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? okay . i see that members are content , so we will now proceed to meet in private .

kirsty williams am shared that the government were working closely with local authorities to understand what school had already done , for instance lending chromebooks , ipads and laptops to children . schools should make sure that students ' access to current education patterns were available to all . besides , nationwide purchase of digital learning tools , the government was also looking to purchase and distribute mi-fi connectivity on a national level . last but not least , the government and local authorities were together continuing to identify education gap and decided to repurpose some of the resources which had been previously identified for the edtech investment , using those resources to fill this particular gap .

what did kirsty williams am expect for new examinations and school qualifications ? </s> lynne neagle am: good afternoon , everyone . welcome to the first virtual meeting of the children , young people and education committee . in accordance with standing order 34.19 , i determine that the public are excluded from the committee 's meeting , in order to protect public health . in accordance with standing order 34.21 , notice of this decision was included in the agenda for this meeting , which was published last friday . this meeting is , however , being broadcast live on senedd.tv , with all participants joining via video conference . a record of the proceedings will be published as usual . aside from the procedural adaptation relating to conducting proceedings remotely , all other standing order requirements for committees remain in place . the meeting is bilingual , and simultaneous translation from welsh to english is available . can i remind all participants that the microphones will be controlled centrally , so there 's no need to turn them on and off individually ? can i ask whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . thank you . can i just then , again , note for the record that , if , for any reason , i drop out of the meeting , the committee has agreed that dawn bowden am will temporarily chair while i try to rejoin ? item 2 , then , this afternoon is an evidence session with the welsh government on the impact of the coronavirus epidemic on education in wales . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams am , minister for education , steve davies , director of the education directorate , and huw morris , who is group director , skills , higher education and lifelong learning . can i welcome you all and thank you for attending ? minister , i understand you 'd like to make a short opening statement . kirsty williams am: thank you very much , lynne . and indeed , if i could just begin by , once again , putting on the record my gratitude to everyone who is helping us get through this pandemic . there are a vast number of people who are keeping our school hubs open , looking after vulnerable children , and the children of key workers . because of them , and their efforts , those key workers are able to carry on their critical roles in responding to covid-19 . i am extremely proud of the way that members of the school community have gone above and beyond . they have kept their schools open out of hours , over the weekends , on bank holidays , and easter . and it is really heartening and humbling to see the way that they have responded to this crisis . and there are teachers , teaching assistants , and many others , who are helping our children and their parents to keep learning at home . i know that home schooling is n't easy , so i want to say also thank you to parents and carers for their efforts at this time . by keeping their children at home , they are helping us to keep people safe , and reducing pressure on our education system , and on our nhs . be in no doubt , we are facing many challenges because of this pandemic . my primary concern is , and always will be , the health and well-being of our children , of our young people , and of all the staff in our education settings . and i am very grateful to everyone who is supporting us in these endeavours . thank you very much—diolch yn fawr . and i 'm now happy to answer questions that members of the committee may have this afternoon . lynne neagle am: thank you very much , minister . i 'm sure that the committee echoes the heartfelt thanks you have just given then . the first questions we 've got this afternoon are from hefin david . hefin david am: good afternoon , minister . with regard to your five principles , which you 've set out today , regarding when schools will reopen , they 're very clear that they require a judgment from you . so could you outline when you think that schools might reopen ? kirsty williams am: thank you , hefin . i am very clear that schools will move to a new phase—because , already , schools are open in many settings ; we will move to a new phase when it is safe to do so and when i have advice from the chief medical officer and the chief scientific officer that it is safe to do so . i have made very clear in my statement that that is not imminent . i know that in some cases there has been speculation that a return to normal could be with us quite shortly . i 'm clear that a return to normal is not imminent , and therefore i 'm not in a position to give a date as to when we will see more schools opening up to more children . hefin david am: have you been given any indication at all by the chief medical officer as to when , in the longer term , it might be ? kirsty williams am: no , i have not been given a date . what i have done today is publish the principles that will aid me in , as you said , me making a decision . so , clearly , we will be relying on the advice of our medical and scientific advisers , but the principles are very clear . firstly , we will need to consider any decision to have more children returning to school in the context of the safety and the physical and the emotional well-being of children and young people and the staff . obviously , i ca n't make a decision regarding education in isolation . it will have to be taken in the context of the wider welsh government response to dealing with this pandemic . thirdly , it is absolutely crucial in making any decisions that we have clearly communicated that to parents and to staff , on the information that we have used to reach any decisions , to build confidence for parents and professionals , but also to give them time to plan . it will be impossible to move quickly to new ways of working . and we also have to look at—and it 's been paraphrased quite a lot today—if we are looking at certain groups of children accessing more education within a school setting , which groups they should be . and , finally , how do we operationalise that ? how do we make those settings as safe as they possibly can be , and how do we tackle some of the difficult challenges of everything from ensuring that we have adequate numbers of workforce available , to the very real questions about how you would do social distancing in the context of education , school transport issues , how you would avoid people gathering at the school gate , for instance ? so , there are very practical issues that would need to be considered and thought through very , very carefully before we could return , before what we could see is a move from where we are now to the next phase of education , and new approaches to what schooling may look like . but , again , i must be absolutely clear to you , members of the committee , and to people watching : it is not feasible , in this sense , that we would move from where we are now to what all of us would regard as normal education and what the operation of schools looked like before the start of this pandemic . hefin david am: so , what is clear from what you 've said is that it 's going to be phased return . i would assume that would be the most vulnerable—perhaps additional learning needs pupils would return first . just reading some of the things that you 've said today , can you answer that question ? and can i also ask : you said that guiding principle no . 3 will be having the confidence of parents , staff and students , based on evidence and information , so they can plan ahead . what will that evidence and information be , and how will you know that you 've got the confidence of parents to return ? kirsty williams am: well , as i said , primarily , we will need to take a lead from our scientific and medical advisers . i want to also say that we are obviously working on a four-nation basis and keeping in very close contact with my counterparts in northern ireland , scotland and england . but we 're also looking beyond the united kingdom to approaches to education in the face of this pandemic . members are aware that we as a nation are a member of the atlantic rim collaboratory . so , recently i was able to talk to educationalists and ministers in iceland , other parts of europe , north america , south america and australia . so , we 're also looking at best international evidence in this regard . and , clearly , we will need to be very clear , as today is an attempt to be very clear with parents and our teaching professionals , and the unions that represent them , about the basis of that evidence . hefin david am: and could i just ask , with regard to the principles , do they then apply to further education and universities ? kirsty williams am: well , of course , when we are discussing these challenges , we are doing that with our colleagues in both the school sector but also our colleagues in the fe sector , and we 're in close contact with colleagues in higher education to share thinking on these matters . hefin david am: but these principles do n't apply in those circumstances ; these are principles for schools only . kirsty williams am: these principles are applying to both , and our work in this area is applying to both schools and fe colleges . clearly , universities , as independent institutions , we would n't be able to dictate to . but i want to be absolutely clear : we are working with representatives of the he sector to include them in this work . and i have received , not assurances , but from discussions that i 've had with universities wales and vice-chancellors , they are very keen to be kept apprised of these approaches , because they may well wish to implement something similar within their own institutions . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got a couple of supplementaries now ; firstly , from suzy davies , and then i 'm going to go to siân gwenllian . suzy . no , we ca n't hear suzy . suzy ? no . i 'll go to siân , then , and then i 'll come back to suzy . siân . hefin david am: chair , i do n't think my microphone is muted . sian gwenllian am: okay . i 'll move on to my question to kirsty williams . now , it is clear that any decisions that need to be taken on reopening schools would have to be made in the context of all of the other issues that the welsh government has to take into account . and it is entirely clear that the approach of government towards testing has n't been sufficiently developed for us to even start to think about removing restrictions . so , would n't it be dangerous , if truth be told , to start to discuss reopening schools when we have n't had the necessary testing in place for the majority of the population ? and does n't it convey a mixed message that we 're starting to relax some of these restrictions when , in reality , the restrictions are still in place and still need to be in place robustly ? kirsty williams am: first of all , thank you very much , siân , for that important question . can i be absolutely clear , and i thought i had been pretty clear in answering hefin david , that we are not relaxing any of the restrictions with regard to education ? as i said to hefin , it is not imminent that we would see a further phase in the next stage of education here in wales . what i have done today is to provide clarity on the nature of the principles that i would use when coming to any discussion . it is the responsibility of me , as the minister , and indeed of the wider government , to begin to think about planning for the future . but i have been absolutely clear : we are not moving to an imminent change in how education is operating at the moment . and i 'm also very , very clear that should we be given the opportunity to see more children in our schools , i will only do that when it is safe for me to do so , when i 've been advised by the cmo that i am able to do that , and we have given sufficient time and planning to the sector to respond . it is not going to be easy , and we will need to give them , as a sector , time to be able to address . but if i have not been clear enough , let me say it again : we are not relaxing any issues around schools at present , nor is that imminent . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , i think we can try going to you again now . suzy davies am: thank you . minister , in your consideration of introducing a phased return to school , in due course , have you taken into consideration how things like school absences are going to be managed ? because , regardless of the amount of good work you do on messaging , there will still be some families that do n't realise that going back to school is for their particular family . will there be a relaxation of , effectively , what we would call truancy rules ? or is that something that schools will be getting guidance on much up-front ? kirsty williams am: thank you , suzy . as i said in my statement earlier today , returning to school will not be a return to normal , and in recognition of this , i 've already made it clear that i will seek , in all opportunities , to reduce the burdens on school . that includes various data collection , the suspension of performance measures and removing the requirement to undertake literacy and numeracy testing , and , clearly , school attendance will want to be an important factor of that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . i 'm keen to go on now to talk about the current situation as being faced by our children and young people in schools with some questions from siân gwenllian . siân . sian gwenllian am: since yesterday , the welsh government has started publishing data on the number of schools that are open , the number of children attending those schools , and the number of staff involved , and they have been making this information available as per capita of the population . on average , i think it 's 1 per cent of the children of wales that actually attend these locations , and some 5 per cent of the staff . so , can you analyse those figures a little further ? can you tell us how many children , according to this data , are children of key workers , and how many are vulnerable children ? kirsty williams am: thank you very much , siân . as you quite rightly say , on average , we have 518 school hubs open each day , with up to 4,200 children attending . we have seen an increase in the number of attendances since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term . we have approximately 5.6 per cent of the teaching population working in those hubs , and at present , 85 per cent of the children who are attending are the children of key workers , the remainder being vulnerable children . so , we are now averaging 600 vulnerable children per day . these are small numbers , but we have seen an increase in those numbers since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term . sian gwenllian am: okay . i 'm sure we 'll return to that point a little later on . how much confidence do you therefore have that the arrangements are effective in terms of the safety of staff and children at these locations ? kirsty williams am: thank you once again for that . the smooth operation of the hubs , with regard to health and safety , is , of course , of paramount importance . what we have seen since schools closed for traditional statutory purposes and moving to their repurposed function—we have seen a change of pattern over time . so , following my announcement on , i believe , 18 march , the week after , we saw a large number of settings open and operating . as local authorities have been able to understand the demand for those places—from critical workers and vulnerable children—we have seen more local authorities move to a hub model , and we have been able to publish guidance to local authorities on how issues around safe working in those hubs should be followed , and we 've been able to give guidance in that regard . local authorities are asked by us to report any incidents where they are concerned about operation issues on the ground . sian gwenllian am: as i mentioned earlier , testing is crucially important in dealing with this crisis . so , how many school staff have been tested for covid because they may have experienced symptoms and so on ? and how many of those have tested positive ? kirsty williams am: my understanding from public health wales is that 15 teachers have been tested for covid-19 , and i believe two of those results have come back as positive . can i make it absolutely clear , the week before last , welsh government issued new guidance around who should be tested ? i want to make it absolutely clear to those professionals working in our hubs , if they or a member of their family are exhibiting any of the symptoms , however mild , of covid-19 , they can and they should be tested . sian gwenllian am: okay . and the final question from me on this : how important is testing going to be in this next phase , as you start to think about relaxing restrictions ? kirsty williams am: obviously , the ability to be able to test , to trace and to quarantine will be critical to the next phase and will be a very , very important and significant building block in all aspects of the government 's work to respond to this pandemic . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you , minister , and thank you , siân . we 've got some questions now on the impact on particular groups of children , from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . just following on from your answer to siân gwenllian earlier about the number of vulnerable children in school , what 's being done specifically to facilitate more of those children coming into a school setting or hub at the moment ? i 'm thinking about the 600 you 've talked about , and i know , in one of my local authority areas of merthyr , which is a very small authority , we 're talking about the number of children identified as vulnerable running into thousands , not hundreds , and that 's just in one authority . so , this is a particularly difficult issue to address , i appreciate , but how are we going to get more of these children into the hubs ? kirsty williams am: okay , dawn . the first thing to say is that the issue of vulnerable children attending settings is one that is a challenge to not just wales , but also to my colleagues in northern ireland , scotland and england . i 'm pleased to say that we are working across government departments—myself , obviously , and colleagues in education—with colleagues in social services to have a cross-government approach to these issues . i think the first thing to say is that these are complex messages , because the overriding public health message from our government has been to stay at home and children should be kept at home as much as possible , and to make sure that our hubs run smoothly , safely and effectively , we do need to limit the number of children who are attending those hubs . so , firstly , the fact that numbers are small is in some ways a success of our public health messages , because parents have been heeding those messages , but , of course , all of us will have concerns for some children who remain at home . so , i 'm pleased to say that we have seen a doubling in the last week of the number of children . so , although numbers are small , they have doubled over the course of the last week . we 're working with local authorities and they have assured us that children and young people with a social worker have been risk assessed on a multi-agency basis and are receiving support in a number of ways , and that includes having conversations about some of those children attending the hubs . they 're also looking to support in other ways . of course , some of our children who would be classed as vulnerable—and our definition of 'vulnerable ' is one that is shared between the systems in england and wales—could be children with a statement of special educational needs . for some of those children who , perhaps , have very intense health needs , actually , staying at home is the appropriate thing for that child and that family to do , and we 're looking to support families , and local authorities and local education systems are looking to support families , in a number of ways . we also know that just because you do n't have a social worker or a statement of special educational needs does not mean that a child may not be vulnerable , and schools are very aware of the needs of those children and have been carrying out regular telephone check-ins where they can—if the age of the child is appropriate—just to keep in touch with those families and those individual children . but we will continue to work across government to encourage , where it is appropriate , children to attend settings , and , if it is not appropriate for children to be in a setting , that there is contact with those children and young people to ensure that they remain , and their families remain , supported . dawn bowden am: thank you , minister . it 's encouraging to hear you talk about the ongoing safeguarding of children that are at home and i assume , within that , appropriate referral mechanisms are still in place if teachers or anybody has any particular concern about a child . similarly , with special educational needs , whereas some of those children benefit clearly from a one-to-one provision in a school , and they may not respond as well to remote working , or remote contact , with an sen advisor , are you considering in any way any relaxation of the lockdown rule in particular for those children in terms of them being able to access the support that they need for their particular educational needs ? kirsty williams am: well , first of all , dawn , you 're absolutely right : my expectation is that schools should remain in contact with children and continue to identify vulnerable children , and schools should continue to refer children to children 's services if they have any concerns , and that would also , of course , be the case for youth workers who may be keeping in contact with children . so , there is a professional expectation on all those that are working with our children and young people that , despite the circumstances they find themselves in , they should continue to report and refer cases if they see anything or hear or are told anything that makes them concerned about a child 's welfare and safety . with regard to children with additional learning needs , i am aware that that can present a number of challenges to families and children , and perhaps steve davies could give some further details . we have been keen to work with local authorities to ensure specialist provision , where that is appropriate—so , if i could give you an example of my own local authority in powys , they have two specialist centres available for children with more profound additional learning needs , and those centres are available—recognising , however , that , even with the provision of specialist hubs , it can be a challenge for some children with additional learning needs to find themselves outside of a routine . hubs are often staffed on a rota basis and therefore children could be faced with staff that they are unfamiliar with . so , even when local authorities—and the vast , vast majority of them do—have specialist services in place , sometimes that might not be the best thing for a child 's health and well-being . but perhaps steve can give us further details of the conversations that have been taking place with directors of education to ensure that children with additional learning needs have access to the hubs and specialist support . steve . steve davies: yes , myself and colleague albert heaney—colleague-director—have been in regular touch with directors of education and directors of social services to make sure that these children and young people 's needs are catered for . we are very aware of all of the special schools—profound and multiple learning difficulties , ebd schools and pupil referral units—that have been kept open in their own way , but also , in some cases , as hubs , to deliver those services for those children 's needs , and we 're pleased that the directors and the local authorities have responded so constructively . so , we have the details of every school that 's open , the pupils who are attending , and we are clear that the risk assessments that the minister referred to for children with special needs , as well as wider vulnerable groups—they are having risk assessments to make sure that , where there is a need identified for a pupil that is not currently attending a hub , then the local authority can be working with that child and with the parents . lynne neagle am: thank you , steve . dawn . dawn bowden am: thank you . just two more questions . one is around emotional and mental health difficulties being experienced by children and young people at the moment . now , there was a very welcome announcement of £1.25 million pounds for school counselling . how is that , in practical terms , being applied if those children are not actually in school ? kirsty williams am: you 're right , dawn : we have to consider how we can support children not only in their learning during this time , but also to recognise the very real impact that the pandemic will have on all of our mental health and well-being—recognising , of course , it is absolutely natural for all of us , including children and young people , to have fears and anxieties at this time . that 's a natural reaction to the situation that we find ourselves in . but , of course , there are issues around those children that would have currently been receiving school counselling , and also being able to be in a position to respond to a potential growth in the number of children that are receiving support . so , the additional money will be made available to local authorities to be able to increase and ramp up services to support children and families . in the immediacy , of course , that will have to be done in different ways than perhaps we 've traditionally delivered services in the past , because of social distancing and lockdown rules , but we want to get some of these systems in place now , rather than waiting for everything to go back to normal . we need to be able to plan to offer services in the here and now , but also be able to plan for what potentially could be an increase in the demand of those services . so , we 've been in close touch with local authorities , asking them what they believe that they will need and how they can use additional financial resources , and we 've been very pleased to be able to secure that for them . dawn bowden am: so , that would include things like telephone and video support as well , i guess , then . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . so , that would include remote counselling as in a fashion that we 're doing now , but also , as and when some of the restrictions are perhaps removed , looking at an enhanced family therapy , or a therapy approach . so , when we talk about counselling , i think it 's important to recognise that there will be some flexibility around this money and it does not necessarily mean that local authorities have to use it on a one-to-one basis . that might not be appropriate for some children , especially our younger children and their families , and they can use that money to provide counselling or therapy—in the widest possible terms—that is the best method to support individual children and their families . but , clearly , we 're having to do that in the confines of lockdown and social distancing at the moment . some of that money can also be used to support the professional learning and the professional development of counsellors , because , of course , they may be being asked to work in a different way and we need to make sure that they have the appropriate skills and abilities to do that . dawn bowden am: thank you . thank you , minister . lynne neagle am: dawn , before you ask your final question , i 've got a couple of supplementaries—firstly from suzy , and then from hefin . suzy davies am: oh , thank you . my question goes back to the comment you made earlier , minister , about the number of children doubling—sorry , vulnerable children doubling—after the easter break , if we can call it that . so , what i 'm after is a sense of churn in these establishments . so , was that figure a recovery of a number of children that had been there before the easter break , and are the people who are there still the same people as were there right at the beginning of the crisis and the lockdown ? kirsty williams am: suzy , what i believe that we 're seeing in our schools is new pupils coming into school . so , there has been , i know , a real effort on behalf of educationalists and social services staff to really reach out to families and to make sure that they 're aware of the support that is available out there for them and their children , and to be able to give them the confidence that there are—that the hubs are available for them . so , we have seen an increase in children . those numbers are still small and , i believe , potentially , there is an opportunity to build on that and to have further conversations with families about the support that is available for vulnerable children , whether that— . that vulnerability , of course , can cover a whole range of issues . as i said when we last met , this is a constantly evolving situation . the initial response—local authorities and schools worked incredibly fast and incredibly quickly to set up these hubs . we 've seen an evolution in the weeks since that time and i am sure that we will continue to see some evolution in approaches . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin , you had a supplementary—briefly , please . hefin david am: yes , very quickly . i 've been listening to the answers with regard to vulnerable children , following on from that answer . i 'm at home with a vulnerable child—a child who has got additional learning needs . she 's got autism ; she 's four . i imagine there are many , many parents in exactly the same position—i 've heard from them . i have n't heard anything from the school or from the local authority . should i have heard something or should i be proactive in pursuing it ? kirsty williams am: i do n't want to comment on personal cases— hefin david am: but there are many others in this position . kirsty williams am: —but what i would say is that if parents have concerns and want to have a conversation about what support is available to them and their children , they should contact their local education authority to have a conversation as to what support is available . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . dawn , final question , please . dawn bowden am: yes , my last question is really about the potential for the attainment gap between disadvantaged pupils and their more affluent peers . is that a concern for you ? i 'm thinking particularly in relation to those less affluent families in having access to technology and so on . what kind of concerns do you have about that and what are we looking to do to try to ensure that that does n't actually play out ? kirsty williams am: thank you , dawn . all of the statistics would tell us that learning loss and the gap , potentially , will affect those more vulnerable children the most . clearly , we will want to consider that as we think about what the new normal for education may look like , or as we develop into future phases . depending on where that child is in their educational journey , of course , the needs and the potential for loss are slightly different . so , for instance , when we 're thinking about very young children , we could be thinking about a lack of social interaction and the development of oracy skills . of course , that , potentially , then will have a knock-on to their ability to learn to read and then to write , for instance . for other children who are , perhaps , older and heading towards formal examinations , the challenge when they return to school will be a slightly different one . i 'm not sure , chair , whether you want me to give some further details about our continuity-of-learning plan and how we are looking to address digital disadvantage now , or whether there are questions later . lynne neagle am: well , i 've got a question on that coming up , so , if it 's okay , dawn , we 'll go on to that now . before we do that , i was just going to ask how the welsh government is paying due regard to the united nations convention on the rights of the child and , obviously , the right children and young people have to an education . i was going to ask you about the risk of inequality due to varying access to digital resources , which are so important in ensuring continuity of learning . kirsty williams am: you 're absolutely correct , chair . officials are very aware of our responsibilities towards children 's rights in this regard and we are doing whatever we can to ensure that children have an equal opportunity and have equal access to learning at this time . we are fortunate in the regard that , because of previous decisions and investments , we have a strong base on which to build because we have our hwb digital learning platform and because we have invested heavily in the national purchasing of microsoft office and google for education tools , which are available to all families . we have become the first , i think—we 're certainly the first in the uk , and i 'm not sure whether we 're the first across the world , but i think we probably are—to deploy , for instance , adobe spark nationally . but , obviously , access to hardware and connectivity is crucial at this time . officials are working with local authorities to ensure that all children have access to both the hardware and the connectivity they need to be able to participate in digital learning at this particular time . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . just a final question from me : how exactly are we communicating to parents what the expectations are of them in terms of delivering this education at home now ? are there , for example , guidelines on recommended hours of home learning per day of the week or volume of work to be completed ? how are we ensuring that parents know how best to lead their children through this at the moment ? kirsty williams am: firstly , can i recognise what a challenge this is ? we 've just heard from hefin who is carrying on his day job as the assembly member , but is obviously trying to do that as well as care for and provide learning for his children , and i know , chair , that you 're doing the same , and i 'm certainly trying to do the same , and it 's a real challenge , it 's not easy . as part of our 'stay safe . stay learning ' policy statement , advice is available to parents and carers on the hwb platform as to what they best can do to support their children . i think the really important message that i 've been trying to give to parents is not to be too hard on ourselves . i know that everybody is doing the best that they can in really challenging circumstances . and if they have concerns , they should be in contact with their child 's school , but we do have specific advice and guidance to parents on the hwb platform . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 're going to move on now to some questions on examinations from janet finch-saunders . janet , we ca n't hear you . i tell you what , we'll— . janet , do you want to try again ? no . okay , we 'll go on then to questions on higher education and post 16 , and we 'll come back to examinations , if that 's okay . suzy . suzy davies am: yes , thank you , chair . before we leave continuity of learning , do you mind if i just ask this one question ? lynne neagle am: no , that 's fine . yes , go on . suzy davies am: your comment , minister , on working with local authorities to make sure that individuals have hardware : can you just give us a bit of detail on what working with local authorities actually means ? in the process of that , is there any data gathering going on for those pupils who are being educated at home and the levels at which they 're engaging ? you know , are they sticking with it , or how many are dropping out ? because i think the two of those perhaps go together . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . so , i 'm hoping to make an announcement tomorrow , if not later on this week , about some specific details around support for hardware and connectivity . we 're working closely with local authorities to understand just that : to understand from the schools the number of schools that—and a number of them have already done this—have been lending chromebooks , ipads and laptops to children , and also identifying children who are not perhaps engaging in the activities that have been made available . and we 'll be doing two things to support local authorities . the first is to use the stock of equipment that they already have to be able to provide hardware to students . so , we have purchased on a national basis software that , when applied to an old piece of kit , essentially turns it into an out-of-the-box chromebook . because , as you can imagine , just like other things during a pandemic , there has been a rush to buy new stuff on the market and then there is a scramble and nobody can get what they need . so , we 're utilisng kit that is already available in schools and local authorities , and we will look to backfill that to schools at a later point out of our edtech investment programme . the other issue is , once a child has a chromebook or a laptop or a device , issues around connectivity . so , we 're also looking to purchase on a national level and distribute mi-fi connectivity , so students will be able to have access to wi-fi where they do n't have that already . that 's why we need to work closely with local authorities and schools to identify the level of that need and to make sure the stuff gets to the right children . one of the ways in which we are able to do that is to look at engagement in education . so , if a child has n't been engaging , is that because they just do n't want to and they 're voting with their feet—but clearly teachers need to have a conversation about that—or is that because the child simply does not have the ability to do that , and therefore we need to get that stuff out to those children ? so , rather than just simply leaving it to local authorities to scramble around in a very crowded market to get the stuff that they will need , we 're trying to do that on a national basis and deploy that to local authorities . so , our officials have been having conversations with each of our local authorities to ascertain what 's already happened , and there is very good practice out there—schools have been proactive—but where there are gaps , what can we do as a national government to be able to assist them to do that ? we are repurposing some of the resources that we had previously identified for our edtech investment , using those resources to fill this particular gap . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 're going to go back to janet now . i believe we 've got sound again , so janet can ask her questions on examinations . janet . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . i thought it was something at this end ; i 'm glad to hear it was n't . when will vocational learners know what is happening with their assessments , and how will those who have no choice but to wait for a vocational assessment be supported ? kirsty williams am: okay . that 's a very good question , janet , because i know that there has been some concern and anxiety around vocational qualification students and how quickly we 've been able to provide certainty for them . you 'll be aware that qualifications wales have been able , in the last week , to be able to give that greater clarity . so , they have announced that learners due to complete their essential skills wales qualifications will receive results . they have also published their approach to how health and social care qualifications will be managed , because , of course , those are part of the first set of reformed quals that we have done on a wales basis . you are right , there are a group of students who fall into the category where there are technical qualifications that require a certificate of competency to be industry ready—i hope i 've explained that correctly—and , therefore , we are working to understand how we can accommodate those students in these particular circumstances . but , at this stage , there may be some delay for that element of their qualification being delayed to a further date . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: yes . what are your expectations for how a-level and gcse qualifications will be awarded this summer , following the ministerial direction that you have issued to qualifications wales ? for example , how is an appropriate balance being taken between recognising the progress of pupils in their coursework , mock examinations , and other work to date , and also , the potential of pupils who might have performed particularly well in their examinations this summer ? kirsty williams am: well , janet , i understand—and today is a day where some students would have been undertaking practical examinations—i understand how devastating it has been to both students and teachers alike for the decision i had to take to cancel this summer 's exam series . but i 'm absolutely clear that was the only decision that could have been reached . qualifications wales has made it very clear—and for people who would like more information , i would urge them to look at qualifications wales 's website—how they will go about giving , allocating , and awarding a grade to our a-level and gcse students . firstly , teachers will be asked to submit a grade they believe that student would have obtained , should they have taken an exam . and , of course , teachers will have a range of data and their own professional judgment that they will use in awarding that grade . teachers will also be asked to rank students in order . once that information has been submitted to qualifications wales , there will be a process by which that data will be moderated ; moderated from centre to centre and across the nation , thus giving us the chance to award a student a fair grade whilst being , and remaining , true to ensuring that we have a robust qualifications system , and allowing those students who find themselves at a critical stage of their education , where they are looking to move on to the next stages—that they will have the grades that will allow them to make decisions about their future . janet finch-saunders am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you , janet . we 're going to go on now , then , to the questions on higher and further education from suzy davies . suzy . suzy davies am: thank you , chair . i suppose my first question just goes back to the 16-year-olds at the moment and those who are looking forward to either going to college , the older ones going to university , there 'll be apprenticeships , all kinds of future pathways for post 16. what 's happening at school level , or even at college level , to get those students ready for the next steps , because , obviously , they 're not in their usual environments and getting their usual programme of teaching ? kirsty williams am: no , that 's quite right , suzy , and i should have said in answer to janet 's question , as well—i 'm sure people already know , but just to get the point across—that a-level results day and gcse day will run as normal across not just wales , but england , wales and northern ireland , which is really important . you 're right , suzy—for those people that are coming to the end of one part of their education this is a particularly challenging time . you 'll be aware that , last week , on hwb , we were able to launch a programme for year 13 students to help them get ready for university . i 'm very grateful to the he sector in wales , who 've worked really hard with us on that . so , for instance , if you were a year 13 student or even a year 12 student that was thinking about or interested in areas around social policy , you could have tuned into a social policy lecturer at swansea university . if you go to the hwb website , you will be able to see that there are subject listings , everything from animal science through to law , politics , history and science , with links through to higher education and further education courses that students can avail themselves of . there 's also a section on preparation for essential study skills , whether that is report writing or academic writing . so , there is a range of activities and courses available for year 13 , so that children—'children ' ; they 're all children to me—young people can get themselves— . they do n't have to stop learning , and they can get themselves ready for the next stage of their education . again , for those children , perhaps , who are coming to the end of their gcses , there is a range of information , either within their own schools or within their local colleges about things that can keep them learning . so , for instance , i 'm aware of one school where you can go onto the website and there are recommendations of , for instance , what you could be reading over the summer if you 're interested in doing this particular a-level in september . i know that there are also moves in schools and in colleges to be able to make sure that those children do n't miss out on really important careers advice at this time , as well , and information , so they can make informed decisions . i know that people are working hard to link up children to advice services that are available so that they can make those really important future decisions with the advice of either a teacher or other professional so that they 've got those options . so , there is material out there and it 's growing all the time . this week , we were able to launch our virtual seren network . you 'll be aware that , for the last couple of years , we 've been able to send welsh children to the yale global summer school . clearly , that ca n't happen this year . that 's devastating for those year 12s who had worked so hard and had won a place on that programme . they will now be able to attend the yale global scholars programme virtually and remotely , because yale have moved that programme online . so , we 're developing materials and resources all of the time . suzy davies am: thank you for that answer . before i move on to my next question , can you give me some sort of sense of how that hwb domain is being populated ? where is all this information being sourced from ? presumably , they 'll be working with partners , but what does that look like ? kirsty williams am: oh , my goodness . yes , absolutely— suzy davies am: [ inaudible . ] kirsty williams am: yes , we 're working very hard . so , everything from our work with the bbc , for instance , and bbc bitesize through to our fe colleges and our he institutions , as well as other organisations in the third sector who are looking to provide those opportunities . can i just say that , last week , we were looking at , every day , in the region of well over 150,000 logins a day into hwb ? suzy davies am: well , that 's great . so there 's proactive populating of hwb . that 's what i was after . that 's great . just going back to some of janet 's questions and the assessed grades , i want to talk to you about the unconditional offers and where we are with that at the moment for entry to universities , because there 's going to be a scramble now of the available students for further education , but primarily higher education institutions , across the uk . is the moratorium on unconditional offers still standing ? are there conversations going on to extend that moratorium ? otherwise , this scramble is going to potentially negatively affect our universities quite considerably . kirsty williams am: yes , you 'll be aware that a moratorium does exist . it exists in this current context to 1 may . we continue to keep in close touch with colleagues in northern ireland , scotland and in the westminster government around these issues . officials are also in touch with ucas , and in the last couple of days i 've had at least three meetings with representatives of the welsh higher education sector to discuss these matters . suzy davies am: i just want to ask you now about students and their maintenance loan grants . i think they 're getting , around now , the money going into their bank account that they would normally have expected at this time of year . that 's right , yes ? kirsty williams am: that 's correct , yes . suzy davies am: what 's happening to those students who would normally be living in digs somewhere but are now living at home ? are they likely to be asked to reimburse part of the cost , because obviously it 's not as expensive to live at home as away , and what 's likely to be happening with the maintenance loans over the summer holiday period , potentially ? because we 've had a period now where students ca n't top up their maintenance loans by going out and working on weekends or working in the evenings , or whatever , so their income has been impacted . just in the round , what kind of conversations are happening around that ? again , it 's probably a four-nation approach , i would imagine . kirsty williams am: thank you , suzy . you are correct to say that our student support regime does allow for a lower payment to be made to those students that stay at home during their studies , but i want to reassure students that there will be no change to their student support payments just because they have left their universities and have decided to go home . there should be no change . also , we are continuing , it should be important to say , to pay education maintenance allowance at this time for our fe students that are eligible for that , even though , obviously , for ema there is an attendance requirement , but clearly that is not appropriate to enforce at the moment . you are correct—this is a worrying time for many students in higher education , especially for those who are looking to graduate at this time and are going out into an economy that has been tremendously badly hit by the pandemic . at this time , we continue to have conversations with nus wales about what can be done within a welsh context , but , as you quite rightly say , also within a uk context , to support students who may have been affected . we are continuing—on our webpage we have a frequently asked questions section that advises students in the first instance , especially when it comes , for instance , to the cost of accommodation—to have those discussions , and i 'm very grateful that , in some cases , some of our institutions have been able to waive or partially waive accommodation fees where students have vacated their accommodation and have returned to their usual home address . but we will continue to have dialogue with nus wales and with our counterparts across the country to look to see what more we can do to support students at this time . suzy davies am: thank you for that answer , and , yes , i was pleased to see that announcement through the nus as well , so well done to those accommodation providers who have a heart . i think we 'll all have seen the universities uk document that explains some of the difficulties that they 're going to be running into if this proceeds much further . my understanding is that the main emphasis at the moment is to try and get all the universities across the uk through this initial period of difficulty by releasing as much money as possible . i can see that your figure to the higher education funding council for wales was a little bit down on last year 's letter—not that there 's been a remit letter yet , but an indication . are you releasing that money earlier so that they can use it more swiftly , or does that not matter ? lynne neagle am: before you come in , minister , that is going to have to be the last question , just to make you aware of that , because we are coming up to the end of our time . suzy davies am: okay . that 's fine . kirsty williams am: of course , suzy , we are working closely with universities wales and have a lot of sympathy for the proposals that have come forward from universities uk , which wales 's universities have been a part of forming . stability in the first instance is really important to us , which is why we 've been able to give an indication to hefcw about resources that are available , and we 've been very clear to hefcw that we want to be as flexible as possible in how they use those resources to support institutions . that potentially would mean reprofiling the way in which money gets out to institutions , but clearly we will need to have an ongoing discussion about how we respond to the immediacy of the issues facing he , how we can get stability for the next academic year , and how we then can support the sector through what is a really challenging time for them . we will do that in a welsh context and we will continue to do that also in a uk context , because you will have seen the scale of some of the figures that have been talked about in terms of the impact on the he sector at this time . clearly , a four-nation approach to that will be crucial . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . well , we have come to the end of our time , and , as to anything that we did n't ask , we will have to write to the minister . can i just thank the minister and her officials for your attendance today ? we know how busy you are dealing with the pandemic and we very much welcome this opportunity to have this discussion with you . so , thank you , minister and officials for your time . as usual , you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . diolch yn fawr . kirsty williams am: diolch yn fawr , chair . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then . can i propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? okay . i see that members are content , so we will now proceed to meet in private .

janet finch-saunders am asked about how a-level and gcse would be awarded in alignment with qualifications wales and kirsty williams am explained that to cancel this summer 's exam series was the only clear decision although it was devastating for both students and teachers . currently , to grade the performance , teachers would first be asked to submit a grade they believed that the student would have obtained , should they have taken an exam . and teachers would have a range of data and their own professional judgment when grading . once that information had been submitted to qualifications wales , there would be a process by which that data would be moderated ; moderated from centre to centre and across the nation .

what did the meeting discuss to assure higher and further education ? </s> lynne neagle am: good afternoon , everyone . welcome to the first virtual meeting of the children , young people and education committee . in accordance with standing order 34.19 , i determine that the public are excluded from the committee 's meeting , in order to protect public health . in accordance with standing order 34.21 , notice of this decision was included in the agenda for this meeting , which was published last friday . this meeting is , however , being broadcast live on senedd.tv , with all participants joining via video conference . a record of the proceedings will be published as usual . aside from the procedural adaptation relating to conducting proceedings remotely , all other standing order requirements for committees remain in place . the meeting is bilingual , and simultaneous translation from welsh to english is available . can i remind all participants that the microphones will be controlled centrally , so there 's no need to turn them on and off individually ? can i ask whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . thank you . can i just then , again , note for the record that , if , for any reason , i drop out of the meeting , the committee has agreed that dawn bowden am will temporarily chair while i try to rejoin ? item 2 , then , this afternoon is an evidence session with the welsh government on the impact of the coronavirus epidemic on education in wales . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams am , minister for education , steve davies , director of the education directorate , and huw morris , who is group director , skills , higher education and lifelong learning . can i welcome you all and thank you for attending ? minister , i understand you 'd like to make a short opening statement . kirsty williams am: thank you very much , lynne . and indeed , if i could just begin by , once again , putting on the record my gratitude to everyone who is helping us get through this pandemic . there are a vast number of people who are keeping our school hubs open , looking after vulnerable children , and the children of key workers . because of them , and their efforts , those key workers are able to carry on their critical roles in responding to covid-19 . i am extremely proud of the way that members of the school community have gone above and beyond . they have kept their schools open out of hours , over the weekends , on bank holidays , and easter . and it is really heartening and humbling to see the way that they have responded to this crisis . and there are teachers , teaching assistants , and many others , who are helping our children and their parents to keep learning at home . i know that home schooling is n't easy , so i want to say also thank you to parents and carers for their efforts at this time . by keeping their children at home , they are helping us to keep people safe , and reducing pressure on our education system , and on our nhs . be in no doubt , we are facing many challenges because of this pandemic . my primary concern is , and always will be , the health and well-being of our children , of our young people , and of all the staff in our education settings . and i am very grateful to everyone who is supporting us in these endeavours . thank you very much—diolch yn fawr . and i 'm now happy to answer questions that members of the committee may have this afternoon . lynne neagle am: thank you very much , minister . i 'm sure that the committee echoes the heartfelt thanks you have just given then . the first questions we 've got this afternoon are from hefin david . hefin david am: good afternoon , minister . with regard to your five principles , which you 've set out today , regarding when schools will reopen , they 're very clear that they require a judgment from you . so could you outline when you think that schools might reopen ? kirsty williams am: thank you , hefin . i am very clear that schools will move to a new phase—because , already , schools are open in many settings ; we will move to a new phase when it is safe to do so and when i have advice from the chief medical officer and the chief scientific officer that it is safe to do so . i have made very clear in my statement that that is not imminent . i know that in some cases there has been speculation that a return to normal could be with us quite shortly . i 'm clear that a return to normal is not imminent , and therefore i 'm not in a position to give a date as to when we will see more schools opening up to more children . hefin david am: have you been given any indication at all by the chief medical officer as to when , in the longer term , it might be ? kirsty williams am: no , i have not been given a date . what i have done today is publish the principles that will aid me in , as you said , me making a decision . so , clearly , we will be relying on the advice of our medical and scientific advisers , but the principles are very clear . firstly , we will need to consider any decision to have more children returning to school in the context of the safety and the physical and the emotional well-being of children and young people and the staff . obviously , i ca n't make a decision regarding education in isolation . it will have to be taken in the context of the wider welsh government response to dealing with this pandemic . thirdly , it is absolutely crucial in making any decisions that we have clearly communicated that to parents and to staff , on the information that we have used to reach any decisions , to build confidence for parents and professionals , but also to give them time to plan . it will be impossible to move quickly to new ways of working . and we also have to look at—and it 's been paraphrased quite a lot today—if we are looking at certain groups of children accessing more education within a school setting , which groups they should be . and , finally , how do we operationalise that ? how do we make those settings as safe as they possibly can be , and how do we tackle some of the difficult challenges of everything from ensuring that we have adequate numbers of workforce available , to the very real questions about how you would do social distancing in the context of education , school transport issues , how you would avoid people gathering at the school gate , for instance ? so , there are very practical issues that would need to be considered and thought through very , very carefully before we could return , before what we could see is a move from where we are now to the next phase of education , and new approaches to what schooling may look like . but , again , i must be absolutely clear to you , members of the committee , and to people watching : it is not feasible , in this sense , that we would move from where we are now to what all of us would regard as normal education and what the operation of schools looked like before the start of this pandemic . hefin david am: so , what is clear from what you 've said is that it 's going to be phased return . i would assume that would be the most vulnerable—perhaps additional learning needs pupils would return first . just reading some of the things that you 've said today , can you answer that question ? and can i also ask : you said that guiding principle no . 3 will be having the confidence of parents , staff and students , based on evidence and information , so they can plan ahead . what will that evidence and information be , and how will you know that you 've got the confidence of parents to return ? kirsty williams am: well , as i said , primarily , we will need to take a lead from our scientific and medical advisers . i want to also say that we are obviously working on a four-nation basis and keeping in very close contact with my counterparts in northern ireland , scotland and england . but we 're also looking beyond the united kingdom to approaches to education in the face of this pandemic . members are aware that we as a nation are a member of the atlantic rim collaboratory . so , recently i was able to talk to educationalists and ministers in iceland , other parts of europe , north america , south america and australia . so , we 're also looking at best international evidence in this regard . and , clearly , we will need to be very clear , as today is an attempt to be very clear with parents and our teaching professionals , and the unions that represent them , about the basis of that evidence . hefin david am: and could i just ask , with regard to the principles , do they then apply to further education and universities ? kirsty williams am: well , of course , when we are discussing these challenges , we are doing that with our colleagues in both the school sector but also our colleagues in the fe sector , and we 're in close contact with colleagues in higher education to share thinking on these matters . hefin david am: but these principles do n't apply in those circumstances ; these are principles for schools only . kirsty williams am: these principles are applying to both , and our work in this area is applying to both schools and fe colleges . clearly , universities , as independent institutions , we would n't be able to dictate to . but i want to be absolutely clear : we are working with representatives of the he sector to include them in this work . and i have received , not assurances , but from discussions that i 've had with universities wales and vice-chancellors , they are very keen to be kept apprised of these approaches , because they may well wish to implement something similar within their own institutions . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got a couple of supplementaries now ; firstly , from suzy davies , and then i 'm going to go to siân gwenllian . suzy . no , we ca n't hear suzy . suzy ? no . i 'll go to siân , then , and then i 'll come back to suzy . siân . hefin david am: chair , i do n't think my microphone is muted . sian gwenllian am: okay . i 'll move on to my question to kirsty williams . now , it is clear that any decisions that need to be taken on reopening schools would have to be made in the context of all of the other issues that the welsh government has to take into account . and it is entirely clear that the approach of government towards testing has n't been sufficiently developed for us to even start to think about removing restrictions . so , would n't it be dangerous , if truth be told , to start to discuss reopening schools when we have n't had the necessary testing in place for the majority of the population ? and does n't it convey a mixed message that we 're starting to relax some of these restrictions when , in reality , the restrictions are still in place and still need to be in place robustly ? kirsty williams am: first of all , thank you very much , siân , for that important question . can i be absolutely clear , and i thought i had been pretty clear in answering hefin david , that we are not relaxing any of the restrictions with regard to education ? as i said to hefin , it is not imminent that we would see a further phase in the next stage of education here in wales . what i have done today is to provide clarity on the nature of the principles that i would use when coming to any discussion . it is the responsibility of me , as the minister , and indeed of the wider government , to begin to think about planning for the future . but i have been absolutely clear : we are not moving to an imminent change in how education is operating at the moment . and i 'm also very , very clear that should we be given the opportunity to see more children in our schools , i will only do that when it is safe for me to do so , when i 've been advised by the cmo that i am able to do that , and we have given sufficient time and planning to the sector to respond . it is not going to be easy , and we will need to give them , as a sector , time to be able to address . but if i have not been clear enough , let me say it again : we are not relaxing any issues around schools at present , nor is that imminent . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , i think we can try going to you again now . suzy davies am: thank you . minister , in your consideration of introducing a phased return to school , in due course , have you taken into consideration how things like school absences are going to be managed ? because , regardless of the amount of good work you do on messaging , there will still be some families that do n't realise that going back to school is for their particular family . will there be a relaxation of , effectively , what we would call truancy rules ? or is that something that schools will be getting guidance on much up-front ? kirsty williams am: thank you , suzy . as i said in my statement earlier today , returning to school will not be a return to normal , and in recognition of this , i 've already made it clear that i will seek , in all opportunities , to reduce the burdens on school . that includes various data collection , the suspension of performance measures and removing the requirement to undertake literacy and numeracy testing , and , clearly , school attendance will want to be an important factor of that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . i 'm keen to go on now to talk about the current situation as being faced by our children and young people in schools with some questions from siân gwenllian . siân . sian gwenllian am: since yesterday , the welsh government has started publishing data on the number of schools that are open , the number of children attending those schools , and the number of staff involved , and they have been making this information available as per capita of the population . on average , i think it 's 1 per cent of the children of wales that actually attend these locations , and some 5 per cent of the staff . so , can you analyse those figures a little further ? can you tell us how many children , according to this data , are children of key workers , and how many are vulnerable children ? kirsty williams am: thank you very much , siân . as you quite rightly say , on average , we have 518 school hubs open each day , with up to 4,200 children attending . we have seen an increase in the number of attendances since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term . we have approximately 5.6 per cent of the teaching population working in those hubs , and at present , 85 per cent of the children who are attending are the children of key workers , the remainder being vulnerable children . so , we are now averaging 600 vulnerable children per day . these are small numbers , but we have seen an increase in those numbers since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term . sian gwenllian am: okay . i 'm sure we 'll return to that point a little later on . how much confidence do you therefore have that the arrangements are effective in terms of the safety of staff and children at these locations ? kirsty williams am: thank you once again for that . the smooth operation of the hubs , with regard to health and safety , is , of course , of paramount importance . what we have seen since schools closed for traditional statutory purposes and moving to their repurposed function—we have seen a change of pattern over time . so , following my announcement on , i believe , 18 march , the week after , we saw a large number of settings open and operating . as local authorities have been able to understand the demand for those places—from critical workers and vulnerable children—we have seen more local authorities move to a hub model , and we have been able to publish guidance to local authorities on how issues around safe working in those hubs should be followed , and we 've been able to give guidance in that regard . local authorities are asked by us to report any incidents where they are concerned about operation issues on the ground . sian gwenllian am: as i mentioned earlier , testing is crucially important in dealing with this crisis . so , how many school staff have been tested for covid because they may have experienced symptoms and so on ? and how many of those have tested positive ? kirsty williams am: my understanding from public health wales is that 15 teachers have been tested for covid-19 , and i believe two of those results have come back as positive . can i make it absolutely clear , the week before last , welsh government issued new guidance around who should be tested ? i want to make it absolutely clear to those professionals working in our hubs , if they or a member of their family are exhibiting any of the symptoms , however mild , of covid-19 , they can and they should be tested . sian gwenllian am: okay . and the final question from me on this : how important is testing going to be in this next phase , as you start to think about relaxing restrictions ? kirsty williams am: obviously , the ability to be able to test , to trace and to quarantine will be critical to the next phase and will be a very , very important and significant building block in all aspects of the government 's work to respond to this pandemic . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you , minister , and thank you , siân . we 've got some questions now on the impact on particular groups of children , from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . just following on from your answer to siân gwenllian earlier about the number of vulnerable children in school , what 's being done specifically to facilitate more of those children coming into a school setting or hub at the moment ? i 'm thinking about the 600 you 've talked about , and i know , in one of my local authority areas of merthyr , which is a very small authority , we 're talking about the number of children identified as vulnerable running into thousands , not hundreds , and that 's just in one authority . so , this is a particularly difficult issue to address , i appreciate , but how are we going to get more of these children into the hubs ? kirsty williams am: okay , dawn . the first thing to say is that the issue of vulnerable children attending settings is one that is a challenge to not just wales , but also to my colleagues in northern ireland , scotland and england . i 'm pleased to say that we are working across government departments—myself , obviously , and colleagues in education—with colleagues in social services to have a cross-government approach to these issues . i think the first thing to say is that these are complex messages , because the overriding public health message from our government has been to stay at home and children should be kept at home as much as possible , and to make sure that our hubs run smoothly , safely and effectively , we do need to limit the number of children who are attending those hubs . so , firstly , the fact that numbers are small is in some ways a success of our public health messages , because parents have been heeding those messages , but , of course , all of us will have concerns for some children who remain at home . so , i 'm pleased to say that we have seen a doubling in the last week of the number of children . so , although numbers are small , they have doubled over the course of the last week . we 're working with local authorities and they have assured us that children and young people with a social worker have been risk assessed on a multi-agency basis and are receiving support in a number of ways , and that includes having conversations about some of those children attending the hubs . they 're also looking to support in other ways . of course , some of our children who would be classed as vulnerable—and our definition of 'vulnerable ' is one that is shared between the systems in england and wales—could be children with a statement of special educational needs . for some of those children who , perhaps , have very intense health needs , actually , staying at home is the appropriate thing for that child and that family to do , and we 're looking to support families , and local authorities and local education systems are looking to support families , in a number of ways . we also know that just because you do n't have a social worker or a statement of special educational needs does not mean that a child may not be vulnerable , and schools are very aware of the needs of those children and have been carrying out regular telephone check-ins where they can—if the age of the child is appropriate—just to keep in touch with those families and those individual children . but we will continue to work across government to encourage , where it is appropriate , children to attend settings , and , if it is not appropriate for children to be in a setting , that there is contact with those children and young people to ensure that they remain , and their families remain , supported . dawn bowden am: thank you , minister . it 's encouraging to hear you talk about the ongoing safeguarding of children that are at home and i assume , within that , appropriate referral mechanisms are still in place if teachers or anybody has any particular concern about a child . similarly , with special educational needs , whereas some of those children benefit clearly from a one-to-one provision in a school , and they may not respond as well to remote working , or remote contact , with an sen advisor , are you considering in any way any relaxation of the lockdown rule in particular for those children in terms of them being able to access the support that they need for their particular educational needs ? kirsty williams am: well , first of all , dawn , you 're absolutely right : my expectation is that schools should remain in contact with children and continue to identify vulnerable children , and schools should continue to refer children to children 's services if they have any concerns , and that would also , of course , be the case for youth workers who may be keeping in contact with children . so , there is a professional expectation on all those that are working with our children and young people that , despite the circumstances they find themselves in , they should continue to report and refer cases if they see anything or hear or are told anything that makes them concerned about a child 's welfare and safety . with regard to children with additional learning needs , i am aware that that can present a number of challenges to families and children , and perhaps steve davies could give some further details . we have been keen to work with local authorities to ensure specialist provision , where that is appropriate—so , if i could give you an example of my own local authority in powys , they have two specialist centres available for children with more profound additional learning needs , and those centres are available—recognising , however , that , even with the provision of specialist hubs , it can be a challenge for some children with additional learning needs to find themselves outside of a routine . hubs are often staffed on a rota basis and therefore children could be faced with staff that they are unfamiliar with . so , even when local authorities—and the vast , vast majority of them do—have specialist services in place , sometimes that might not be the best thing for a child 's health and well-being . but perhaps steve can give us further details of the conversations that have been taking place with directors of education to ensure that children with additional learning needs have access to the hubs and specialist support . steve . steve davies: yes , myself and colleague albert heaney—colleague-director—have been in regular touch with directors of education and directors of social services to make sure that these children and young people 's needs are catered for . we are very aware of all of the special schools—profound and multiple learning difficulties , ebd schools and pupil referral units—that have been kept open in their own way , but also , in some cases , as hubs , to deliver those services for those children 's needs , and we 're pleased that the directors and the local authorities have responded so constructively . so , we have the details of every school that 's open , the pupils who are attending , and we are clear that the risk assessments that the minister referred to for children with special needs , as well as wider vulnerable groups—they are having risk assessments to make sure that , where there is a need identified for a pupil that is not currently attending a hub , then the local authority can be working with that child and with the parents . lynne neagle am: thank you , steve . dawn . dawn bowden am: thank you . just two more questions . one is around emotional and mental health difficulties being experienced by children and young people at the moment . now , there was a very welcome announcement of £1.25 million pounds for school counselling . how is that , in practical terms , being applied if those children are not actually in school ? kirsty williams am: you 're right , dawn : we have to consider how we can support children not only in their learning during this time , but also to recognise the very real impact that the pandemic will have on all of our mental health and well-being—recognising , of course , it is absolutely natural for all of us , including children and young people , to have fears and anxieties at this time . that 's a natural reaction to the situation that we find ourselves in . but , of course , there are issues around those children that would have currently been receiving school counselling , and also being able to be in a position to respond to a potential growth in the number of children that are receiving support . so , the additional money will be made available to local authorities to be able to increase and ramp up services to support children and families . in the immediacy , of course , that will have to be done in different ways than perhaps we 've traditionally delivered services in the past , because of social distancing and lockdown rules , but we want to get some of these systems in place now , rather than waiting for everything to go back to normal . we need to be able to plan to offer services in the here and now , but also be able to plan for what potentially could be an increase in the demand of those services . so , we 've been in close touch with local authorities , asking them what they believe that they will need and how they can use additional financial resources , and we 've been very pleased to be able to secure that for them . dawn bowden am: so , that would include things like telephone and video support as well , i guess , then . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . so , that would include remote counselling as in a fashion that we 're doing now , but also , as and when some of the restrictions are perhaps removed , looking at an enhanced family therapy , or a therapy approach . so , when we talk about counselling , i think it 's important to recognise that there will be some flexibility around this money and it does not necessarily mean that local authorities have to use it on a one-to-one basis . that might not be appropriate for some children , especially our younger children and their families , and they can use that money to provide counselling or therapy—in the widest possible terms—that is the best method to support individual children and their families . but , clearly , we 're having to do that in the confines of lockdown and social distancing at the moment . some of that money can also be used to support the professional learning and the professional development of counsellors , because , of course , they may be being asked to work in a different way and we need to make sure that they have the appropriate skills and abilities to do that . dawn bowden am: thank you . thank you , minister . lynne neagle am: dawn , before you ask your final question , i 've got a couple of supplementaries—firstly from suzy , and then from hefin . suzy davies am: oh , thank you . my question goes back to the comment you made earlier , minister , about the number of children doubling—sorry , vulnerable children doubling—after the easter break , if we can call it that . so , what i 'm after is a sense of churn in these establishments . so , was that figure a recovery of a number of children that had been there before the easter break , and are the people who are there still the same people as were there right at the beginning of the crisis and the lockdown ? kirsty williams am: suzy , what i believe that we 're seeing in our schools is new pupils coming into school . so , there has been , i know , a real effort on behalf of educationalists and social services staff to really reach out to families and to make sure that they 're aware of the support that is available out there for them and their children , and to be able to give them the confidence that there are—that the hubs are available for them . so , we have seen an increase in children . those numbers are still small and , i believe , potentially , there is an opportunity to build on that and to have further conversations with families about the support that is available for vulnerable children , whether that— . that vulnerability , of course , can cover a whole range of issues . as i said when we last met , this is a constantly evolving situation . the initial response—local authorities and schools worked incredibly fast and incredibly quickly to set up these hubs . we 've seen an evolution in the weeks since that time and i am sure that we will continue to see some evolution in approaches . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin , you had a supplementary—briefly , please . hefin david am: yes , very quickly . i 've been listening to the answers with regard to vulnerable children , following on from that answer . i 'm at home with a vulnerable child—a child who has got additional learning needs . she 's got autism ; she 's four . i imagine there are many , many parents in exactly the same position—i 've heard from them . i have n't heard anything from the school or from the local authority . should i have heard something or should i be proactive in pursuing it ? kirsty williams am: i do n't want to comment on personal cases— hefin david am: but there are many others in this position . kirsty williams am: —but what i would say is that if parents have concerns and want to have a conversation about what support is available to them and their children , they should contact their local education authority to have a conversation as to what support is available . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . dawn , final question , please . dawn bowden am: yes , my last question is really about the potential for the attainment gap between disadvantaged pupils and their more affluent peers . is that a concern for you ? i 'm thinking particularly in relation to those less affluent families in having access to technology and so on . what kind of concerns do you have about that and what are we looking to do to try to ensure that that does n't actually play out ? kirsty williams am: thank you , dawn . all of the statistics would tell us that learning loss and the gap , potentially , will affect those more vulnerable children the most . clearly , we will want to consider that as we think about what the new normal for education may look like , or as we develop into future phases . depending on where that child is in their educational journey , of course , the needs and the potential for loss are slightly different . so , for instance , when we 're thinking about very young children , we could be thinking about a lack of social interaction and the development of oracy skills . of course , that , potentially , then will have a knock-on to their ability to learn to read and then to write , for instance . for other children who are , perhaps , older and heading towards formal examinations , the challenge when they return to school will be a slightly different one . i 'm not sure , chair , whether you want me to give some further details about our continuity-of-learning plan and how we are looking to address digital disadvantage now , or whether there are questions later . lynne neagle am: well , i 've got a question on that coming up , so , if it 's okay , dawn , we 'll go on to that now . before we do that , i was just going to ask how the welsh government is paying due regard to the united nations convention on the rights of the child and , obviously , the right children and young people have to an education . i was going to ask you about the risk of inequality due to varying access to digital resources , which are so important in ensuring continuity of learning . kirsty williams am: you 're absolutely correct , chair . officials are very aware of our responsibilities towards children 's rights in this regard and we are doing whatever we can to ensure that children have an equal opportunity and have equal access to learning at this time . we are fortunate in the regard that , because of previous decisions and investments , we have a strong base on which to build because we have our hwb digital learning platform and because we have invested heavily in the national purchasing of microsoft office and google for education tools , which are available to all families . we have become the first , i think—we 're certainly the first in the uk , and i 'm not sure whether we 're the first across the world , but i think we probably are—to deploy , for instance , adobe spark nationally . but , obviously , access to hardware and connectivity is crucial at this time . officials are working with local authorities to ensure that all children have access to both the hardware and the connectivity they need to be able to participate in digital learning at this particular time . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . just a final question from me : how exactly are we communicating to parents what the expectations are of them in terms of delivering this education at home now ? are there , for example , guidelines on recommended hours of home learning per day of the week or volume of work to be completed ? how are we ensuring that parents know how best to lead their children through this at the moment ? kirsty williams am: firstly , can i recognise what a challenge this is ? we 've just heard from hefin who is carrying on his day job as the assembly member , but is obviously trying to do that as well as care for and provide learning for his children , and i know , chair , that you 're doing the same , and i 'm certainly trying to do the same , and it 's a real challenge , it 's not easy . as part of our 'stay safe . stay learning ' policy statement , advice is available to parents and carers on the hwb platform as to what they best can do to support their children . i think the really important message that i 've been trying to give to parents is not to be too hard on ourselves . i know that everybody is doing the best that they can in really challenging circumstances . and if they have concerns , they should be in contact with their child 's school , but we do have specific advice and guidance to parents on the hwb platform . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 're going to move on now to some questions on examinations from janet finch-saunders . janet , we ca n't hear you . i tell you what , we'll— . janet , do you want to try again ? no . okay , we 'll go on then to questions on higher education and post 16 , and we 'll come back to examinations , if that 's okay . suzy . suzy davies am: yes , thank you , chair . before we leave continuity of learning , do you mind if i just ask this one question ? lynne neagle am: no , that 's fine . yes , go on . suzy davies am: your comment , minister , on working with local authorities to make sure that individuals have hardware : can you just give us a bit of detail on what working with local authorities actually means ? in the process of that , is there any data gathering going on for those pupils who are being educated at home and the levels at which they 're engaging ? you know , are they sticking with it , or how many are dropping out ? because i think the two of those perhaps go together . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . so , i 'm hoping to make an announcement tomorrow , if not later on this week , about some specific details around support for hardware and connectivity . we 're working closely with local authorities to understand just that : to understand from the schools the number of schools that—and a number of them have already done this—have been lending chromebooks , ipads and laptops to children , and also identifying children who are not perhaps engaging in the activities that have been made available . and we 'll be doing two things to support local authorities . the first is to use the stock of equipment that they already have to be able to provide hardware to students . so , we have purchased on a national basis software that , when applied to an old piece of kit , essentially turns it into an out-of-the-box chromebook . because , as you can imagine , just like other things during a pandemic , there has been a rush to buy new stuff on the market and then there is a scramble and nobody can get what they need . so , we 're utilisng kit that is already available in schools and local authorities , and we will look to backfill that to schools at a later point out of our edtech investment programme . the other issue is , once a child has a chromebook or a laptop or a device , issues around connectivity . so , we 're also looking to purchase on a national level and distribute mi-fi connectivity , so students will be able to have access to wi-fi where they do n't have that already . that 's why we need to work closely with local authorities and schools to identify the level of that need and to make sure the stuff gets to the right children . one of the ways in which we are able to do that is to look at engagement in education . so , if a child has n't been engaging , is that because they just do n't want to and they 're voting with their feet—but clearly teachers need to have a conversation about that—or is that because the child simply does not have the ability to do that , and therefore we need to get that stuff out to those children ? so , rather than just simply leaving it to local authorities to scramble around in a very crowded market to get the stuff that they will need , we 're trying to do that on a national basis and deploy that to local authorities . so , our officials have been having conversations with each of our local authorities to ascertain what 's already happened , and there is very good practice out there—schools have been proactive—but where there are gaps , what can we do as a national government to be able to assist them to do that ? we are repurposing some of the resources that we had previously identified for our edtech investment , using those resources to fill this particular gap . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 're going to go back to janet now . i believe we 've got sound again , so janet can ask her questions on examinations . janet . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . i thought it was something at this end ; i 'm glad to hear it was n't . when will vocational learners know what is happening with their assessments , and how will those who have no choice but to wait for a vocational assessment be supported ? kirsty williams am: okay . that 's a very good question , janet , because i know that there has been some concern and anxiety around vocational qualification students and how quickly we 've been able to provide certainty for them . you 'll be aware that qualifications wales have been able , in the last week , to be able to give that greater clarity . so , they have announced that learners due to complete their essential skills wales qualifications will receive results . they have also published their approach to how health and social care qualifications will be managed , because , of course , those are part of the first set of reformed quals that we have done on a wales basis . you are right , there are a group of students who fall into the category where there are technical qualifications that require a certificate of competency to be industry ready—i hope i 've explained that correctly—and , therefore , we are working to understand how we can accommodate those students in these particular circumstances . but , at this stage , there may be some delay for that element of their qualification being delayed to a further date . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: yes . what are your expectations for how a-level and gcse qualifications will be awarded this summer , following the ministerial direction that you have issued to qualifications wales ? for example , how is an appropriate balance being taken between recognising the progress of pupils in their coursework , mock examinations , and other work to date , and also , the potential of pupils who might have performed particularly well in their examinations this summer ? kirsty williams am: well , janet , i understand—and today is a day where some students would have been undertaking practical examinations—i understand how devastating it has been to both students and teachers alike for the decision i had to take to cancel this summer 's exam series . but i 'm absolutely clear that was the only decision that could have been reached . qualifications wales has made it very clear—and for people who would like more information , i would urge them to look at qualifications wales 's website—how they will go about giving , allocating , and awarding a grade to our a-level and gcse students . firstly , teachers will be asked to submit a grade they believe that student would have obtained , should they have taken an exam . and , of course , teachers will have a range of data and their own professional judgment that they will use in awarding that grade . teachers will also be asked to rank students in order . once that information has been submitted to qualifications wales , there will be a process by which that data will be moderated ; moderated from centre to centre and across the nation , thus giving us the chance to award a student a fair grade whilst being , and remaining , true to ensuring that we have a robust qualifications system , and allowing those students who find themselves at a critical stage of their education , where they are looking to move on to the next stages—that they will have the grades that will allow them to make decisions about their future . janet finch-saunders am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you , janet . we 're going to go on now , then , to the questions on higher and further education from suzy davies . suzy . suzy davies am: thank you , chair . i suppose my first question just goes back to the 16-year-olds at the moment and those who are looking forward to either going to college , the older ones going to university , there 'll be apprenticeships , all kinds of future pathways for post 16. what 's happening at school level , or even at college level , to get those students ready for the next steps , because , obviously , they 're not in their usual environments and getting their usual programme of teaching ? kirsty williams am: no , that 's quite right , suzy , and i should have said in answer to janet 's question , as well—i 'm sure people already know , but just to get the point across—that a-level results day and gcse day will run as normal across not just wales , but england , wales and northern ireland , which is really important . you 're right , suzy—for those people that are coming to the end of one part of their education this is a particularly challenging time . you 'll be aware that , last week , on hwb , we were able to launch a programme for year 13 students to help them get ready for university . i 'm very grateful to the he sector in wales , who 've worked really hard with us on that . so , for instance , if you were a year 13 student or even a year 12 student that was thinking about or interested in areas around social policy , you could have tuned into a social policy lecturer at swansea university . if you go to the hwb website , you will be able to see that there are subject listings , everything from animal science through to law , politics , history and science , with links through to higher education and further education courses that students can avail themselves of . there 's also a section on preparation for essential study skills , whether that is report writing or academic writing . so , there is a range of activities and courses available for year 13 , so that children—'children ' ; they 're all children to me—young people can get themselves— . they do n't have to stop learning , and they can get themselves ready for the next stage of their education . again , for those children , perhaps , who are coming to the end of their gcses , there is a range of information , either within their own schools or within their local colleges about things that can keep them learning . so , for instance , i 'm aware of one school where you can go onto the website and there are recommendations of , for instance , what you could be reading over the summer if you 're interested in doing this particular a-level in september . i know that there are also moves in schools and in colleges to be able to make sure that those children do n't miss out on really important careers advice at this time , as well , and information , so they can make informed decisions . i know that people are working hard to link up children to advice services that are available so that they can make those really important future decisions with the advice of either a teacher or other professional so that they 've got those options . so , there is material out there and it 's growing all the time . this week , we were able to launch our virtual seren network . you 'll be aware that , for the last couple of years , we 've been able to send welsh children to the yale global summer school . clearly , that ca n't happen this year . that 's devastating for those year 12s who had worked so hard and had won a place on that programme . they will now be able to attend the yale global scholars programme virtually and remotely , because yale have moved that programme online . so , we 're developing materials and resources all of the time . suzy davies am: thank you for that answer . before i move on to my next question , can you give me some sort of sense of how that hwb domain is being populated ? where is all this information being sourced from ? presumably , they 'll be working with partners , but what does that look like ? kirsty williams am: oh , my goodness . yes , absolutely— suzy davies am: [ inaudible . ] kirsty williams am: yes , we 're working very hard . so , everything from our work with the bbc , for instance , and bbc bitesize through to our fe colleges and our he institutions , as well as other organisations in the third sector who are looking to provide those opportunities . can i just say that , last week , we were looking at , every day , in the region of well over 150,000 logins a day into hwb ? suzy davies am: well , that 's great . so there 's proactive populating of hwb . that 's what i was after . that 's great . just going back to some of janet 's questions and the assessed grades , i want to talk to you about the unconditional offers and where we are with that at the moment for entry to universities , because there 's going to be a scramble now of the available students for further education , but primarily higher education institutions , across the uk . is the moratorium on unconditional offers still standing ? are there conversations going on to extend that moratorium ? otherwise , this scramble is going to potentially negatively affect our universities quite considerably . kirsty williams am: yes , you 'll be aware that a moratorium does exist . it exists in this current context to 1 may . we continue to keep in close touch with colleagues in northern ireland , scotland and in the westminster government around these issues . officials are also in touch with ucas , and in the last couple of days i 've had at least three meetings with representatives of the welsh higher education sector to discuss these matters . suzy davies am: i just want to ask you now about students and their maintenance loan grants . i think they 're getting , around now , the money going into their bank account that they would normally have expected at this time of year . that 's right , yes ? kirsty williams am: that 's correct , yes . suzy davies am: what 's happening to those students who would normally be living in digs somewhere but are now living at home ? are they likely to be asked to reimburse part of the cost , because obviously it 's not as expensive to live at home as away , and what 's likely to be happening with the maintenance loans over the summer holiday period , potentially ? because we 've had a period now where students ca n't top up their maintenance loans by going out and working on weekends or working in the evenings , or whatever , so their income has been impacted . just in the round , what kind of conversations are happening around that ? again , it 's probably a four-nation approach , i would imagine . kirsty williams am: thank you , suzy . you are correct to say that our student support regime does allow for a lower payment to be made to those students that stay at home during their studies , but i want to reassure students that there will be no change to their student support payments just because they have left their universities and have decided to go home . there should be no change . also , we are continuing , it should be important to say , to pay education maintenance allowance at this time for our fe students that are eligible for that , even though , obviously , for ema there is an attendance requirement , but clearly that is not appropriate to enforce at the moment . you are correct—this is a worrying time for many students in higher education , especially for those who are looking to graduate at this time and are going out into an economy that has been tremendously badly hit by the pandemic . at this time , we continue to have conversations with nus wales about what can be done within a welsh context , but , as you quite rightly say , also within a uk context , to support students who may have been affected . we are continuing—on our webpage we have a frequently asked questions section that advises students in the first instance , especially when it comes , for instance , to the cost of accommodation—to have those discussions , and i 'm very grateful that , in some cases , some of our institutions have been able to waive or partially waive accommodation fees where students have vacated their accommodation and have returned to their usual home address . but we will continue to have dialogue with nus wales and with our counterparts across the country to look to see what more we can do to support students at this time . suzy davies am: thank you for that answer , and , yes , i was pleased to see that announcement through the nus as well , so well done to those accommodation providers who have a heart . i think we 'll all have seen the universities uk document that explains some of the difficulties that they 're going to be running into if this proceeds much further . my understanding is that the main emphasis at the moment is to try and get all the universities across the uk through this initial period of difficulty by releasing as much money as possible . i can see that your figure to the higher education funding council for wales was a little bit down on last year 's letter—not that there 's been a remit letter yet , but an indication . are you releasing that money earlier so that they can use it more swiftly , or does that not matter ? lynne neagle am: before you come in , minister , that is going to have to be the last question , just to make you aware of that , because we are coming up to the end of our time . suzy davies am: okay . that 's fine . kirsty williams am: of course , suzy , we are working closely with universities wales and have a lot of sympathy for the proposals that have come forward from universities uk , which wales 's universities have been a part of forming . stability in the first instance is really important to us , which is why we 've been able to give an indication to hefcw about resources that are available , and we 've been very clear to hefcw that we want to be as flexible as possible in how they use those resources to support institutions . that potentially would mean reprofiling the way in which money gets out to institutions , but clearly we will need to have an ongoing discussion about how we respond to the immediacy of the issues facing he , how we can get stability for the next academic year , and how we then can support the sector through what is a really challenging time for them . we will do that in a welsh context and we will continue to do that also in a uk context , because you will have seen the scale of some of the figures that have been talked about in terms of the impact on the he sector at this time . clearly , a four-nation approach to that will be crucial . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . well , we have come to the end of our time , and , as to anything that we did n't ask , we will have to write to the minister . can i just thank the minister and her officials for your attendance today ? we know how busy you are dealing with the pandemic and we very much welcome this opportunity to have this discussion with you . so , thank you , minister and officials for your time . as usual , you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . diolch yn fawr . kirsty williams am: diolch yn fawr , chair . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then . can i propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? okay . i see that members are content , so we will now proceed to meet in private .

to get the students who planned to enter college for the next step , kirsty williams am introduced that last week , on hwb , they were able to launch a programme for year 13 students to help them get ready for university . on the hwb website , students would be able to see the subject listings , everything from animal science through to law , politics , history and science , with links through to higher education and further education courses that students could avail themselves of . there was also a section on preparation for essential study skills , whether that was report writing or academic writing.similar preparation like the help from career advice website was also accessible . meanwhile , new materials and resources would be developed .

what did the meeting discuss about the student support regime ? </s> lynne neagle am: good afternoon , everyone . welcome to the first virtual meeting of the children , young people and education committee . in accordance with standing order 34.19 , i determine that the public are excluded from the committee 's meeting , in order to protect public health . in accordance with standing order 34.21 , notice of this decision was included in the agenda for this meeting , which was published last friday . this meeting is , however , being broadcast live on senedd.tv , with all participants joining via video conference . a record of the proceedings will be published as usual . aside from the procedural adaptation relating to conducting proceedings remotely , all other standing order requirements for committees remain in place . the meeting is bilingual , and simultaneous translation from welsh to english is available . can i remind all participants that the microphones will be controlled centrally , so there 's no need to turn them on and off individually ? can i ask whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . thank you . can i just then , again , note for the record that , if , for any reason , i drop out of the meeting , the committee has agreed that dawn bowden am will temporarily chair while i try to rejoin ? item 2 , then , this afternoon is an evidence session with the welsh government on the impact of the coronavirus epidemic on education in wales . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams am , minister for education , steve davies , director of the education directorate , and huw morris , who is group director , skills , higher education and lifelong learning . can i welcome you all and thank you for attending ? minister , i understand you 'd like to make a short opening statement . kirsty williams am: thank you very much , lynne . and indeed , if i could just begin by , once again , putting on the record my gratitude to everyone who is helping us get through this pandemic . there are a vast number of people who are keeping our school hubs open , looking after vulnerable children , and the children of key workers . because of them , and their efforts , those key workers are able to carry on their critical roles in responding to covid-19 . i am extremely proud of the way that members of the school community have gone above and beyond . they have kept their schools open out of hours , over the weekends , on bank holidays , and easter . and it is really heartening and humbling to see the way that they have responded to this crisis . and there are teachers , teaching assistants , and many others , who are helping our children and their parents to keep learning at home . i know that home schooling is n't easy , so i want to say also thank you to parents and carers for their efforts at this time . by keeping their children at home , they are helping us to keep people safe , and reducing pressure on our education system , and on our nhs . be in no doubt , we are facing many challenges because of this pandemic . my primary concern is , and always will be , the health and well-being of our children , of our young people , and of all the staff in our education settings . and i am very grateful to everyone who is supporting us in these endeavours . thank you very much—diolch yn fawr . and i 'm now happy to answer questions that members of the committee may have this afternoon . lynne neagle am: thank you very much , minister . i 'm sure that the committee echoes the heartfelt thanks you have just given then . the first questions we 've got this afternoon are from hefin david . hefin david am: good afternoon , minister . with regard to your five principles , which you 've set out today , regarding when schools will reopen , they 're very clear that they require a judgment from you . so could you outline when you think that schools might reopen ? kirsty williams am: thank you , hefin . i am very clear that schools will move to a new phase—because , already , schools are open in many settings ; we will move to a new phase when it is safe to do so and when i have advice from the chief medical officer and the chief scientific officer that it is safe to do so . i have made very clear in my statement that that is not imminent . i know that in some cases there has been speculation that a return to normal could be with us quite shortly . i 'm clear that a return to normal is not imminent , and therefore i 'm not in a position to give a date as to when we will see more schools opening up to more children . hefin david am: have you been given any indication at all by the chief medical officer as to when , in the longer term , it might be ? kirsty williams am: no , i have not been given a date . what i have done today is publish the principles that will aid me in , as you said , me making a decision . so , clearly , we will be relying on the advice of our medical and scientific advisers , but the principles are very clear . firstly , we will need to consider any decision to have more children returning to school in the context of the safety and the physical and the emotional well-being of children and young people and the staff . obviously , i ca n't make a decision regarding education in isolation . it will have to be taken in the context of the wider welsh government response to dealing with this pandemic . thirdly , it is absolutely crucial in making any decisions that we have clearly communicated that to parents and to staff , on the information that we have used to reach any decisions , to build confidence for parents and professionals , but also to give them time to plan . it will be impossible to move quickly to new ways of working . and we also have to look at—and it 's been paraphrased quite a lot today—if we are looking at certain groups of children accessing more education within a school setting , which groups they should be . and , finally , how do we operationalise that ? how do we make those settings as safe as they possibly can be , and how do we tackle some of the difficult challenges of everything from ensuring that we have adequate numbers of workforce available , to the very real questions about how you would do social distancing in the context of education , school transport issues , how you would avoid people gathering at the school gate , for instance ? so , there are very practical issues that would need to be considered and thought through very , very carefully before we could return , before what we could see is a move from where we are now to the next phase of education , and new approaches to what schooling may look like . but , again , i must be absolutely clear to you , members of the committee , and to people watching : it is not feasible , in this sense , that we would move from where we are now to what all of us would regard as normal education and what the operation of schools looked like before the start of this pandemic . hefin david am: so , what is clear from what you 've said is that it 's going to be phased return . i would assume that would be the most vulnerable—perhaps additional learning needs pupils would return first . just reading some of the things that you 've said today , can you answer that question ? and can i also ask : you said that guiding principle no . 3 will be having the confidence of parents , staff and students , based on evidence and information , so they can plan ahead . what will that evidence and information be , and how will you know that you 've got the confidence of parents to return ? kirsty williams am: well , as i said , primarily , we will need to take a lead from our scientific and medical advisers . i want to also say that we are obviously working on a four-nation basis and keeping in very close contact with my counterparts in northern ireland , scotland and england . but we 're also looking beyond the united kingdom to approaches to education in the face of this pandemic . members are aware that we as a nation are a member of the atlantic rim collaboratory . so , recently i was able to talk to educationalists and ministers in iceland , other parts of europe , north america , south america and australia . so , we 're also looking at best international evidence in this regard . and , clearly , we will need to be very clear , as today is an attempt to be very clear with parents and our teaching professionals , and the unions that represent them , about the basis of that evidence . hefin david am: and could i just ask , with regard to the principles , do they then apply to further education and universities ? kirsty williams am: well , of course , when we are discussing these challenges , we are doing that with our colleagues in both the school sector but also our colleagues in the fe sector , and we 're in close contact with colleagues in higher education to share thinking on these matters . hefin david am: but these principles do n't apply in those circumstances ; these are principles for schools only . kirsty williams am: these principles are applying to both , and our work in this area is applying to both schools and fe colleges . clearly , universities , as independent institutions , we would n't be able to dictate to . but i want to be absolutely clear : we are working with representatives of the he sector to include them in this work . and i have received , not assurances , but from discussions that i 've had with universities wales and vice-chancellors , they are very keen to be kept apprised of these approaches , because they may well wish to implement something similar within their own institutions . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got a couple of supplementaries now ; firstly , from suzy davies , and then i 'm going to go to siân gwenllian . suzy . no , we ca n't hear suzy . suzy ? no . i 'll go to siân , then , and then i 'll come back to suzy . siân . hefin david am: chair , i do n't think my microphone is muted . sian gwenllian am: okay . i 'll move on to my question to kirsty williams . now , it is clear that any decisions that need to be taken on reopening schools would have to be made in the context of all of the other issues that the welsh government has to take into account . and it is entirely clear that the approach of government towards testing has n't been sufficiently developed for us to even start to think about removing restrictions . so , would n't it be dangerous , if truth be told , to start to discuss reopening schools when we have n't had the necessary testing in place for the majority of the population ? and does n't it convey a mixed message that we 're starting to relax some of these restrictions when , in reality , the restrictions are still in place and still need to be in place robustly ? kirsty williams am: first of all , thank you very much , siân , for that important question . can i be absolutely clear , and i thought i had been pretty clear in answering hefin david , that we are not relaxing any of the restrictions with regard to education ? as i said to hefin , it is not imminent that we would see a further phase in the next stage of education here in wales . what i have done today is to provide clarity on the nature of the principles that i would use when coming to any discussion . it is the responsibility of me , as the minister , and indeed of the wider government , to begin to think about planning for the future . but i have been absolutely clear : we are not moving to an imminent change in how education is operating at the moment . and i 'm also very , very clear that should we be given the opportunity to see more children in our schools , i will only do that when it is safe for me to do so , when i 've been advised by the cmo that i am able to do that , and we have given sufficient time and planning to the sector to respond . it is not going to be easy , and we will need to give them , as a sector , time to be able to address . but if i have not been clear enough , let me say it again : we are not relaxing any issues around schools at present , nor is that imminent . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , i think we can try going to you again now . suzy davies am: thank you . minister , in your consideration of introducing a phased return to school , in due course , have you taken into consideration how things like school absences are going to be managed ? because , regardless of the amount of good work you do on messaging , there will still be some families that do n't realise that going back to school is for their particular family . will there be a relaxation of , effectively , what we would call truancy rules ? or is that something that schools will be getting guidance on much up-front ? kirsty williams am: thank you , suzy . as i said in my statement earlier today , returning to school will not be a return to normal , and in recognition of this , i 've already made it clear that i will seek , in all opportunities , to reduce the burdens on school . that includes various data collection , the suspension of performance measures and removing the requirement to undertake literacy and numeracy testing , and , clearly , school attendance will want to be an important factor of that . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . i 'm keen to go on now to talk about the current situation as being faced by our children and young people in schools with some questions from siân gwenllian . siân . sian gwenllian am: since yesterday , the welsh government has started publishing data on the number of schools that are open , the number of children attending those schools , and the number of staff involved , and they have been making this information available as per capita of the population . on average , i think it 's 1 per cent of the children of wales that actually attend these locations , and some 5 per cent of the staff . so , can you analyse those figures a little further ? can you tell us how many children , according to this data , are children of key workers , and how many are vulnerable children ? kirsty williams am: thank you very much , siân . as you quite rightly say , on average , we have 518 school hubs open each day , with up to 4,200 children attending . we have seen an increase in the number of attendances since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term . we have approximately 5.6 per cent of the teaching population working in those hubs , and at present , 85 per cent of the children who are attending are the children of key workers , the remainder being vulnerable children . so , we are now averaging 600 vulnerable children per day . these are small numbers , but we have seen an increase in those numbers since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term . sian gwenllian am: okay . i 'm sure we 'll return to that point a little later on . how much confidence do you therefore have that the arrangements are effective in terms of the safety of staff and children at these locations ? kirsty williams am: thank you once again for that . the smooth operation of the hubs , with regard to health and safety , is , of course , of paramount importance . what we have seen since schools closed for traditional statutory purposes and moving to their repurposed function—we have seen a change of pattern over time . so , following my announcement on , i believe , 18 march , the week after , we saw a large number of settings open and operating . as local authorities have been able to understand the demand for those places—from critical workers and vulnerable children—we have seen more local authorities move to a hub model , and we have been able to publish guidance to local authorities on how issues around safe working in those hubs should be followed , and we 've been able to give guidance in that regard . local authorities are asked by us to report any incidents where they are concerned about operation issues on the ground . sian gwenllian am: as i mentioned earlier , testing is crucially important in dealing with this crisis . so , how many school staff have been tested for covid because they may have experienced symptoms and so on ? and how many of those have tested positive ? kirsty williams am: my understanding from public health wales is that 15 teachers have been tested for covid-19 , and i believe two of those results have come back as positive . can i make it absolutely clear , the week before last , welsh government issued new guidance around who should be tested ? i want to make it absolutely clear to those professionals working in our hubs , if they or a member of their family are exhibiting any of the symptoms , however mild , of covid-19 , they can and they should be tested . sian gwenllian am: okay . and the final question from me on this : how important is testing going to be in this next phase , as you start to think about relaxing restrictions ? kirsty williams am: obviously , the ability to be able to test , to trace and to quarantine will be critical to the next phase and will be a very , very important and significant building block in all aspects of the government 's work to respond to this pandemic . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you , minister , and thank you , siân . we 've got some questions now on the impact on particular groups of children , from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . just following on from your answer to siân gwenllian earlier about the number of vulnerable children in school , what 's being done specifically to facilitate more of those children coming into a school setting or hub at the moment ? i 'm thinking about the 600 you 've talked about , and i know , in one of my local authority areas of merthyr , which is a very small authority , we 're talking about the number of children identified as vulnerable running into thousands , not hundreds , and that 's just in one authority . so , this is a particularly difficult issue to address , i appreciate , but how are we going to get more of these children into the hubs ? kirsty williams am: okay , dawn . the first thing to say is that the issue of vulnerable children attending settings is one that is a challenge to not just wales , but also to my colleagues in northern ireland , scotland and england . i 'm pleased to say that we are working across government departments—myself , obviously , and colleagues in education—with colleagues in social services to have a cross-government approach to these issues . i think the first thing to say is that these are complex messages , because the overriding public health message from our government has been to stay at home and children should be kept at home as much as possible , and to make sure that our hubs run smoothly , safely and effectively , we do need to limit the number of children who are attending those hubs . so , firstly , the fact that numbers are small is in some ways a success of our public health messages , because parents have been heeding those messages , but , of course , all of us will have concerns for some children who remain at home . so , i 'm pleased to say that we have seen a doubling in the last week of the number of children . so , although numbers are small , they have doubled over the course of the last week . we 're working with local authorities and they have assured us that children and young people with a social worker have been risk assessed on a multi-agency basis and are receiving support in a number of ways , and that includes having conversations about some of those children attending the hubs . they 're also looking to support in other ways . of course , some of our children who would be classed as vulnerable—and our definition of 'vulnerable ' is one that is shared between the systems in england and wales—could be children with a statement of special educational needs . for some of those children who , perhaps , have very intense health needs , actually , staying at home is the appropriate thing for that child and that family to do , and we 're looking to support families , and local authorities and local education systems are looking to support families , in a number of ways . we also know that just because you do n't have a social worker or a statement of special educational needs does not mean that a child may not be vulnerable , and schools are very aware of the needs of those children and have been carrying out regular telephone check-ins where they can—if the age of the child is appropriate—just to keep in touch with those families and those individual children . but we will continue to work across government to encourage , where it is appropriate , children to attend settings , and , if it is not appropriate for children to be in a setting , that there is contact with those children and young people to ensure that they remain , and their families remain , supported . dawn bowden am: thank you , minister . it 's encouraging to hear you talk about the ongoing safeguarding of children that are at home and i assume , within that , appropriate referral mechanisms are still in place if teachers or anybody has any particular concern about a child . similarly , with special educational needs , whereas some of those children benefit clearly from a one-to-one provision in a school , and they may not respond as well to remote working , or remote contact , with an sen advisor , are you considering in any way any relaxation of the lockdown rule in particular for those children in terms of them being able to access the support that they need for their particular educational needs ? kirsty williams am: well , first of all , dawn , you 're absolutely right : my expectation is that schools should remain in contact with children and continue to identify vulnerable children , and schools should continue to refer children to children 's services if they have any concerns , and that would also , of course , be the case for youth workers who may be keeping in contact with children . so , there is a professional expectation on all those that are working with our children and young people that , despite the circumstances they find themselves in , they should continue to report and refer cases if they see anything or hear or are told anything that makes them concerned about a child 's welfare and safety . with regard to children with additional learning needs , i am aware that that can present a number of challenges to families and children , and perhaps steve davies could give some further details . we have been keen to work with local authorities to ensure specialist provision , where that is appropriate—so , if i could give you an example of my own local authority in powys , they have two specialist centres available for children with more profound additional learning needs , and those centres are available—recognising , however , that , even with the provision of specialist hubs , it can be a challenge for some children with additional learning needs to find themselves outside of a routine . hubs are often staffed on a rota basis and therefore children could be faced with staff that they are unfamiliar with . so , even when local authorities—and the vast , vast majority of them do—have specialist services in place , sometimes that might not be the best thing for a child 's health and well-being . but perhaps steve can give us further details of the conversations that have been taking place with directors of education to ensure that children with additional learning needs have access to the hubs and specialist support . steve . steve davies: yes , myself and colleague albert heaney—colleague-director—have been in regular touch with directors of education and directors of social services to make sure that these children and young people 's needs are catered for . we are very aware of all of the special schools—profound and multiple learning difficulties , ebd schools and pupil referral units—that have been kept open in their own way , but also , in some cases , as hubs , to deliver those services for those children 's needs , and we 're pleased that the directors and the local authorities have responded so constructively . so , we have the details of every school that 's open , the pupils who are attending , and we are clear that the risk assessments that the minister referred to for children with special needs , as well as wider vulnerable groups—they are having risk assessments to make sure that , where there is a need identified for a pupil that is not currently attending a hub , then the local authority can be working with that child and with the parents . lynne neagle am: thank you , steve . dawn . dawn bowden am: thank you . just two more questions . one is around emotional and mental health difficulties being experienced by children and young people at the moment . now , there was a very welcome announcement of £1.25 million pounds for school counselling . how is that , in practical terms , being applied if those children are not actually in school ? kirsty williams am: you 're right , dawn : we have to consider how we can support children not only in their learning during this time , but also to recognise the very real impact that the pandemic will have on all of our mental health and well-being—recognising , of course , it is absolutely natural for all of us , including children and young people , to have fears and anxieties at this time . that 's a natural reaction to the situation that we find ourselves in . but , of course , there are issues around those children that would have currently been receiving school counselling , and also being able to be in a position to respond to a potential growth in the number of children that are receiving support . so , the additional money will be made available to local authorities to be able to increase and ramp up services to support children and families . in the immediacy , of course , that will have to be done in different ways than perhaps we 've traditionally delivered services in the past , because of social distancing and lockdown rules , but we want to get some of these systems in place now , rather than waiting for everything to go back to normal . we need to be able to plan to offer services in the here and now , but also be able to plan for what potentially could be an increase in the demand of those services . so , we 've been in close touch with local authorities , asking them what they believe that they will need and how they can use additional financial resources , and we 've been very pleased to be able to secure that for them . dawn bowden am: so , that would include things like telephone and video support as well , i guess , then . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . so , that would include remote counselling as in a fashion that we 're doing now , but also , as and when some of the restrictions are perhaps removed , looking at an enhanced family therapy , or a therapy approach . so , when we talk about counselling , i think it 's important to recognise that there will be some flexibility around this money and it does not necessarily mean that local authorities have to use it on a one-to-one basis . that might not be appropriate for some children , especially our younger children and their families , and they can use that money to provide counselling or therapy—in the widest possible terms—that is the best method to support individual children and their families . but , clearly , we 're having to do that in the confines of lockdown and social distancing at the moment . some of that money can also be used to support the professional learning and the professional development of counsellors , because , of course , they may be being asked to work in a different way and we need to make sure that they have the appropriate skills and abilities to do that . dawn bowden am: thank you . thank you , minister . lynne neagle am: dawn , before you ask your final question , i 've got a couple of supplementaries—firstly from suzy , and then from hefin . suzy davies am: oh , thank you . my question goes back to the comment you made earlier , minister , about the number of children doubling—sorry , vulnerable children doubling—after the easter break , if we can call it that . so , what i 'm after is a sense of churn in these establishments . so , was that figure a recovery of a number of children that had been there before the easter break , and are the people who are there still the same people as were there right at the beginning of the crisis and the lockdown ? kirsty williams am: suzy , what i believe that we 're seeing in our schools is new pupils coming into school . so , there has been , i know , a real effort on behalf of educationalists and social services staff to really reach out to families and to make sure that they 're aware of the support that is available out there for them and their children , and to be able to give them the confidence that there are—that the hubs are available for them . so , we have seen an increase in children . those numbers are still small and , i believe , potentially , there is an opportunity to build on that and to have further conversations with families about the support that is available for vulnerable children , whether that— . that vulnerability , of course , can cover a whole range of issues . as i said when we last met , this is a constantly evolving situation . the initial response—local authorities and schools worked incredibly fast and incredibly quickly to set up these hubs . we 've seen an evolution in the weeks since that time and i am sure that we will continue to see some evolution in approaches . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin , you had a supplementary—briefly , please . hefin david am: yes , very quickly . i 've been listening to the answers with regard to vulnerable children , following on from that answer . i 'm at home with a vulnerable child—a child who has got additional learning needs . she 's got autism ; she 's four . i imagine there are many , many parents in exactly the same position—i 've heard from them . i have n't heard anything from the school or from the local authority . should i have heard something or should i be proactive in pursuing it ? kirsty williams am: i do n't want to comment on personal cases— hefin david am: but there are many others in this position . kirsty williams am: —but what i would say is that if parents have concerns and want to have a conversation about what support is available to them and their children , they should contact their local education authority to have a conversation as to what support is available . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . dawn , final question , please . dawn bowden am: yes , my last question is really about the potential for the attainment gap between disadvantaged pupils and their more affluent peers . is that a concern for you ? i 'm thinking particularly in relation to those less affluent families in having access to technology and so on . what kind of concerns do you have about that and what are we looking to do to try to ensure that that does n't actually play out ? kirsty williams am: thank you , dawn . all of the statistics would tell us that learning loss and the gap , potentially , will affect those more vulnerable children the most . clearly , we will want to consider that as we think about what the new normal for education may look like , or as we develop into future phases . depending on where that child is in their educational journey , of course , the needs and the potential for loss are slightly different . so , for instance , when we 're thinking about very young children , we could be thinking about a lack of social interaction and the development of oracy skills . of course , that , potentially , then will have a knock-on to their ability to learn to read and then to write , for instance . for other children who are , perhaps , older and heading towards formal examinations , the challenge when they return to school will be a slightly different one . i 'm not sure , chair , whether you want me to give some further details about our continuity-of-learning plan and how we are looking to address digital disadvantage now , or whether there are questions later . lynne neagle am: well , i 've got a question on that coming up , so , if it 's okay , dawn , we 'll go on to that now . before we do that , i was just going to ask how the welsh government is paying due regard to the united nations convention on the rights of the child and , obviously , the right children and young people have to an education . i was going to ask you about the risk of inequality due to varying access to digital resources , which are so important in ensuring continuity of learning . kirsty williams am: you 're absolutely correct , chair . officials are very aware of our responsibilities towards children 's rights in this regard and we are doing whatever we can to ensure that children have an equal opportunity and have equal access to learning at this time . we are fortunate in the regard that , because of previous decisions and investments , we have a strong base on which to build because we have our hwb digital learning platform and because we have invested heavily in the national purchasing of microsoft office and google for education tools , which are available to all families . we have become the first , i think—we 're certainly the first in the uk , and i 'm not sure whether we 're the first across the world , but i think we probably are—to deploy , for instance , adobe spark nationally . but , obviously , access to hardware and connectivity is crucial at this time . officials are working with local authorities to ensure that all children have access to both the hardware and the connectivity they need to be able to participate in digital learning at this particular time . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . just a final question from me : how exactly are we communicating to parents what the expectations are of them in terms of delivering this education at home now ? are there , for example , guidelines on recommended hours of home learning per day of the week or volume of work to be completed ? how are we ensuring that parents know how best to lead their children through this at the moment ? kirsty williams am: firstly , can i recognise what a challenge this is ? we 've just heard from hefin who is carrying on his day job as the assembly member , but is obviously trying to do that as well as care for and provide learning for his children , and i know , chair , that you 're doing the same , and i 'm certainly trying to do the same , and it 's a real challenge , it 's not easy . as part of our 'stay safe . stay learning ' policy statement , advice is available to parents and carers on the hwb platform as to what they best can do to support their children . i think the really important message that i 've been trying to give to parents is not to be too hard on ourselves . i know that everybody is doing the best that they can in really challenging circumstances . and if they have concerns , they should be in contact with their child 's school , but we do have specific advice and guidance to parents on the hwb platform . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 're going to move on now to some questions on examinations from janet finch-saunders . janet , we ca n't hear you . i tell you what , we'll— . janet , do you want to try again ? no . okay , we 'll go on then to questions on higher education and post 16 , and we 'll come back to examinations , if that 's okay . suzy . suzy davies am: yes , thank you , chair . before we leave continuity of learning , do you mind if i just ask this one question ? lynne neagle am: no , that 's fine . yes , go on . suzy davies am: your comment , minister , on working with local authorities to make sure that individuals have hardware : can you just give us a bit of detail on what working with local authorities actually means ? in the process of that , is there any data gathering going on for those pupils who are being educated at home and the levels at which they 're engaging ? you know , are they sticking with it , or how many are dropping out ? because i think the two of those perhaps go together . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . so , i 'm hoping to make an announcement tomorrow , if not later on this week , about some specific details around support for hardware and connectivity . we 're working closely with local authorities to understand just that : to understand from the schools the number of schools that—and a number of them have already done this—have been lending chromebooks , ipads and laptops to children , and also identifying children who are not perhaps engaging in the activities that have been made available . and we 'll be doing two things to support local authorities . the first is to use the stock of equipment that they already have to be able to provide hardware to students . so , we have purchased on a national basis software that , when applied to an old piece of kit , essentially turns it into an out-of-the-box chromebook . because , as you can imagine , just like other things during a pandemic , there has been a rush to buy new stuff on the market and then there is a scramble and nobody can get what they need . so , we 're utilisng kit that is already available in schools and local authorities , and we will look to backfill that to schools at a later point out of our edtech investment programme . the other issue is , once a child has a chromebook or a laptop or a device , issues around connectivity . so , we 're also looking to purchase on a national level and distribute mi-fi connectivity , so students will be able to have access to wi-fi where they do n't have that already . that 's why we need to work closely with local authorities and schools to identify the level of that need and to make sure the stuff gets to the right children . one of the ways in which we are able to do that is to look at engagement in education . so , if a child has n't been engaging , is that because they just do n't want to and they 're voting with their feet—but clearly teachers need to have a conversation about that—or is that because the child simply does not have the ability to do that , and therefore we need to get that stuff out to those children ? so , rather than just simply leaving it to local authorities to scramble around in a very crowded market to get the stuff that they will need , we 're trying to do that on a national basis and deploy that to local authorities . so , our officials have been having conversations with each of our local authorities to ascertain what 's already happened , and there is very good practice out there—schools have been proactive—but where there are gaps , what can we do as a national government to be able to assist them to do that ? we are repurposing some of the resources that we had previously identified for our edtech investment , using those resources to fill this particular gap . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 're going to go back to janet now . i believe we 've got sound again , so janet can ask her questions on examinations . janet . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . i thought it was something at this end ; i 'm glad to hear it was n't . when will vocational learners know what is happening with their assessments , and how will those who have no choice but to wait for a vocational assessment be supported ? kirsty williams am: okay . that 's a very good question , janet , because i know that there has been some concern and anxiety around vocational qualification students and how quickly we 've been able to provide certainty for them . you 'll be aware that qualifications wales have been able , in the last week , to be able to give that greater clarity . so , they have announced that learners due to complete their essential skills wales qualifications will receive results . they have also published their approach to how health and social care qualifications will be managed , because , of course , those are part of the first set of reformed quals that we have done on a wales basis . you are right , there are a group of students who fall into the category where there are technical qualifications that require a certificate of competency to be industry ready—i hope i 've explained that correctly—and , therefore , we are working to understand how we can accommodate those students in these particular circumstances . but , at this stage , there may be some delay for that element of their qualification being delayed to a further date . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: yes . what are your expectations for how a-level and gcse qualifications will be awarded this summer , following the ministerial direction that you have issued to qualifications wales ? for example , how is an appropriate balance being taken between recognising the progress of pupils in their coursework , mock examinations , and other work to date , and also , the potential of pupils who might have performed particularly well in their examinations this summer ? kirsty williams am: well , janet , i understand—and today is a day where some students would have been undertaking practical examinations—i understand how devastating it has been to both students and teachers alike for the decision i had to take to cancel this summer 's exam series . but i 'm absolutely clear that was the only decision that could have been reached . qualifications wales has made it very clear—and for people who would like more information , i would urge them to look at qualifications wales 's website—how they will go about giving , allocating , and awarding a grade to our a-level and gcse students . firstly , teachers will be asked to submit a grade they believe that student would have obtained , should they have taken an exam . and , of course , teachers will have a range of data and their own professional judgment that they will use in awarding that grade . teachers will also be asked to rank students in order . once that information has been submitted to qualifications wales , there will be a process by which that data will be moderated ; moderated from centre to centre and across the nation , thus giving us the chance to award a student a fair grade whilst being , and remaining , true to ensuring that we have a robust qualifications system , and allowing those students who find themselves at a critical stage of their education , where they are looking to move on to the next stages—that they will have the grades that will allow them to make decisions about their future . janet finch-saunders am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you , janet . we 're going to go on now , then , to the questions on higher and further education from suzy davies . suzy . suzy davies am: thank you , chair . i suppose my first question just goes back to the 16-year-olds at the moment and those who are looking forward to either going to college , the older ones going to university , there 'll be apprenticeships , all kinds of future pathways for post 16. what 's happening at school level , or even at college level , to get those students ready for the next steps , because , obviously , they 're not in their usual environments and getting their usual programme of teaching ? kirsty williams am: no , that 's quite right , suzy , and i should have said in answer to janet 's question , as well—i 'm sure people already know , but just to get the point across—that a-level results day and gcse day will run as normal across not just wales , but england , wales and northern ireland , which is really important . you 're right , suzy—for those people that are coming to the end of one part of their education this is a particularly challenging time . you 'll be aware that , last week , on hwb , we were able to launch a programme for year 13 students to help them get ready for university . i 'm very grateful to the he sector in wales , who 've worked really hard with us on that . so , for instance , if you were a year 13 student or even a year 12 student that was thinking about or interested in areas around social policy , you could have tuned into a social policy lecturer at swansea university . if you go to the hwb website , you will be able to see that there are subject listings , everything from animal science through to law , politics , history and science , with links through to higher education and further education courses that students can avail themselves of . there 's also a section on preparation for essential study skills , whether that is report writing or academic writing . so , there is a range of activities and courses available for year 13 , so that children—'children ' ; they 're all children to me—young people can get themselves— . they do n't have to stop learning , and they can get themselves ready for the next stage of their education . again , for those children , perhaps , who are coming to the end of their gcses , there is a range of information , either within their own schools or within their local colleges about things that can keep them learning . so , for instance , i 'm aware of one school where you can go onto the website and there are recommendations of , for instance , what you could be reading over the summer if you 're interested in doing this particular a-level in september . i know that there are also moves in schools and in colleges to be able to make sure that those children do n't miss out on really important careers advice at this time , as well , and information , so they can make informed decisions . i know that people are working hard to link up children to advice services that are available so that they can make those really important future decisions with the advice of either a teacher or other professional so that they 've got those options . so , there is material out there and it 's growing all the time . this week , we were able to launch our virtual seren network . you 'll be aware that , for the last couple of years , we 've been able to send welsh children to the yale global summer school . clearly , that ca n't happen this year . that 's devastating for those year 12s who had worked so hard and had won a place on that programme . they will now be able to attend the yale global scholars programme virtually and remotely , because yale have moved that programme online . so , we 're developing materials and resources all of the time . suzy davies am: thank you for that answer . before i move on to my next question , can you give me some sort of sense of how that hwb domain is being populated ? where is all this information being sourced from ? presumably , they 'll be working with partners , but what does that look like ? kirsty williams am: oh , my goodness . yes , absolutely— suzy davies am: [ inaudible . ] kirsty williams am: yes , we 're working very hard . so , everything from our work with the bbc , for instance , and bbc bitesize through to our fe colleges and our he institutions , as well as other organisations in the third sector who are looking to provide those opportunities . can i just say that , last week , we were looking at , every day , in the region of well over 150,000 logins a day into hwb ? suzy davies am: well , that 's great . so there 's proactive populating of hwb . that 's what i was after . that 's great . just going back to some of janet 's questions and the assessed grades , i want to talk to you about the unconditional offers and where we are with that at the moment for entry to universities , because there 's going to be a scramble now of the available students for further education , but primarily higher education institutions , across the uk . is the moratorium on unconditional offers still standing ? are there conversations going on to extend that moratorium ? otherwise , this scramble is going to potentially negatively affect our universities quite considerably . kirsty williams am: yes , you 'll be aware that a moratorium does exist . it exists in this current context to 1 may . we continue to keep in close touch with colleagues in northern ireland , scotland and in the westminster government around these issues . officials are also in touch with ucas , and in the last couple of days i 've had at least three meetings with representatives of the welsh higher education sector to discuss these matters . suzy davies am: i just want to ask you now about students and their maintenance loan grants . i think they 're getting , around now , the money going into their bank account that they would normally have expected at this time of year . that 's right , yes ? kirsty williams am: that 's correct , yes . suzy davies am: what 's happening to those students who would normally be living in digs somewhere but are now living at home ? are they likely to be asked to reimburse part of the cost , because obviously it 's not as expensive to live at home as away , and what 's likely to be happening with the maintenance loans over the summer holiday period , potentially ? because we 've had a period now where students ca n't top up their maintenance loans by going out and working on weekends or working in the evenings , or whatever , so their income has been impacted . just in the round , what kind of conversations are happening around that ? again , it 's probably a four-nation approach , i would imagine . kirsty williams am: thank you , suzy . you are correct to say that our student support regime does allow for a lower payment to be made to those students that stay at home during their studies , but i want to reassure students that there will be no change to their student support payments just because they have left their universities and have decided to go home . there should be no change . also , we are continuing , it should be important to say , to pay education maintenance allowance at this time for our fe students that are eligible for that , even though , obviously , for ema there is an attendance requirement , but clearly that is not appropriate to enforce at the moment . you are correct—this is a worrying time for many students in higher education , especially for those who are looking to graduate at this time and are going out into an economy that has been tremendously badly hit by the pandemic . at this time , we continue to have conversations with nus wales about what can be done within a welsh context , but , as you quite rightly say , also within a uk context , to support students who may have been affected . we are continuing—on our webpage we have a frequently asked questions section that advises students in the first instance , especially when it comes , for instance , to the cost of accommodation—to have those discussions , and i 'm very grateful that , in some cases , some of our institutions have been able to waive or partially waive accommodation fees where students have vacated their accommodation and have returned to their usual home address . but we will continue to have dialogue with nus wales and with our counterparts across the country to look to see what more we can do to support students at this time . suzy davies am: thank you for that answer , and , yes , i was pleased to see that announcement through the nus as well , so well done to those accommodation providers who have a heart . i think we 'll all have seen the universities uk document that explains some of the difficulties that they 're going to be running into if this proceeds much further . my understanding is that the main emphasis at the moment is to try and get all the universities across the uk through this initial period of difficulty by releasing as much money as possible . i can see that your figure to the higher education funding council for wales was a little bit down on last year 's letter—not that there 's been a remit letter yet , but an indication . are you releasing that money earlier so that they can use it more swiftly , or does that not matter ? lynne neagle am: before you come in , minister , that is going to have to be the last question , just to make you aware of that , because we are coming up to the end of our time . suzy davies am: okay . that 's fine . kirsty williams am: of course , suzy , we are working closely with universities wales and have a lot of sympathy for the proposals that have come forward from universities uk , which wales 's universities have been a part of forming . stability in the first instance is really important to us , which is why we 've been able to give an indication to hefcw about resources that are available , and we 've been very clear to hefcw that we want to be as flexible as possible in how they use those resources to support institutions . that potentially would mean reprofiling the way in which money gets out to institutions , but clearly we will need to have an ongoing discussion about how we respond to the immediacy of the issues facing he , how we can get stability for the next academic year , and how we then can support the sector through what is a really challenging time for them . we will do that in a welsh context and we will continue to do that also in a uk context , because you will have seen the scale of some of the figures that have been talked about in terms of the impact on the he sector at this time . clearly , a four-nation approach to that will be crucial . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . well , we have come to the end of our time , and , as to anything that we did n't ask , we will have to write to the minister . can i just thank the minister and her officials for your attendance today ? we know how busy you are dealing with the pandemic and we very much welcome this opportunity to have this discussion with you . so , thank you , minister and officials for your time . as usual , you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . diolch yn fawr . kirsty williams am: diolch yn fawr , chair . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then . can i propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? okay . i see that members are content , so we will now proceed to meet in private .

suzy davies am asked whether the money of the student support regime would decrease since students were currently studying at home at a much lower cost . kirsty williams am made it clear that there would be no change on that , as the same amount of money would go to students ' accounts as a way of assuring students ' attendance and the family 's confidence under the extreme situation .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . i 've received apologies for absence from siân gwenllian , and i 'm very pleased to welcome helen mary jones , who is substituting for siân today . can i ask whether members want to declare any interests , please ? can i just , then , place on record that i have got a son who was about to do a-levels , so is affected by the exam decision ? we 'll move on , then , to our substantive item today , which is an evidence session with the welsh government around the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on education in wales . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams , minister for education ; steve davies , who is director of the education directorate ; huw morris , who is the group director , skills , higher education and lifelong learning ; and rob orford , who is the chief scientific adviser for health . thank you all for coming . we know that this is a really difficult and pressurised time for everyone , and we appreciate your attendance . minister , i understand you wanted to make an opening statement today . kirsty williams am: yes , if that 's okay , chair . as you know , it 's not usually my practice to do that , but i think it is important today . covid-19 coronavirus is one of the most significant issues that the welsh government and the people of wales have dealt with in recent times . dealing with the impacts of this pandemic is extremely challenging . things are changing on an hourly basis , and we have to make decisions quickly to ensure public safety . but i would like to assure you that our aim , and my aim , and my main concern as the education minister is to protect all staff and pupils in our schools and other educational settings . but we also have a duty to ensure continuing and continuity of education . public health is clearly the priority here , but that does not change our belief that no child should miss out on any education , unless absolutely necessary . so , the decision to close all schools from tomorrow for statutory education provision was not taken lightly , but i believe it was necessary , given the advice and recommendations that we had received from a public health perspective and the situation that was developing on the ground . from next week , schools will have a new purpose . they will help support those most in need , including people involved in the immediate response to the coronavirus outbreak , and i 'm working with my colleagues in the cabinet , with government officials and our partners in local government to develop and finalise these plans . the key areas that we 're looking at are supporting and safeguarding the vulnerable and ensuring continuity of learning . this includes all of those who benefit from free school meals and children with additional learning needs . i can confirm that all maintained schools in wales already have access to a range of digital tools that can support distance learning through the world-class hwb digital learning platform , including virtual classrooms and video-conferencing facilities . a guide on what tools are available and how schools can use them has been developed and is being promoted widely . yesterday , i announced that , whilst there are no easy choices , we have agreed that the best way forward is not to proceed with the summer exam series . learners due to sit these exams will be awarded a fair grade to recognise their work , drawing on a range of information that is available , and i will announce further details shortly , but i felt it necessary to give early certainty to students and to staff . i would like to put on record my thanks to everyone working in education settings for the hard work that they have put in over the last few months in dealing with the virus and ensuring that pupils have been able to continue to learn . we need to continue to do this work together , as we face the continuing challenges posed by the coronavirus . diolch yn fawr . lynne neagle am: thank you very much , minister , for that statement . we 'll go to questions from members now , and i 've got some questions from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . can i thank you , kirsty , for your statement and the really difficult decisions that you 've been having to make ? you 've already indicated in your statement this morning that these decisions are not taken lightly , and we understand that that is the case across government . so , thank you for what you 've been doing . you 've outlined a little bit further there in your statement to us this morning about the new purpose . i take from what you 're saying that you have n't really developed that yet in terms of exactly what that is going to look like . you 've talked about the children of key workers , free school meals , additional learning needs . is there anything else you can tell us about that at the moment and how you might staff the schools in those particular areas ? kirsty williams am: thank you , dawn . so , you're absolutely right , our priority now is to operationalise , with colleagues in local government and schools , a practical response . and i have to say , we 're working to timescales that i would have hoped to have avoided , but given the fact that we 're having to make these decisions quite quickly , i hope that you will understand that perhaps where we start on monday might change when we have more time and more opportunities to develop programmes going forward . steve will be able to give you more details of the practical work that has already been going on , but our expectation will be that schools will be playing an important part in providing safe and secure places for children of those on the front-line response to dealing with the coronavirus to attend , and work is already under way with local authorities and individual schools on what that will look like for the emergency situation on monday . our other priority is indeed free school meals , and , again , where we eventually end up might be a different place to where we are on monday . again , we 're responding to the emergency situation that there will be families that were expecting a free school meal on monday , and , again , individual schools and local authorities are developing those plans at pace to be able to provide an emergency response as we work out a longer term plan to deal with the situation . the same thing also goes for additional learning needs , and attending to the needs of that particular group of learners . so , those conversations began a few days ago . i had the opportunity to meet with the first minister and andrew morgan , the leader of the welsh local government association , yesterday to talk about what local government could do , and what they were already doing . those plans in some places are already quite developed , and are now working at pace , but i hope you will understand that where we start on monday is the emergency response , and that work will develop as we go forward . but , steve , perhaps you could— ? because steve was the one making all those phone calls and doing the practical operational stuff , rather than me . steve . steve davies: in short , the new purpose is to meet the needs of particular groups of children and young people . in some cases , some of the response to supporting free school meals , in the short term in particular , we may use the schools as part of that , and i 'm certain that will happen in some cases . the second area is looking at how we support the children of key workers . now , there is still work to be done on identifying exactly the categories of key workers , but i think it 's really encouraging that in my discussions yesterday—i spoke with all 22 directors of education , and the examples we 're picking up in their work with schools is they 're already ahead of the curve in working with schools . so , schools have identified the number of children with health workers . it will grow , and we will need to look at that range . then , the third area is vulnerable children . they 're vulnerable sometimes in terms of education other than at school , vulnerable in terms of mental health , and for those children , as well as having an experience that we want to be planned , some have compared it to a snow day , particularly on monday , when you 're putting something together in the short term , but it will not be a formal curriculum that those children would normally go through . so , the range of activities—some will be focused on educational activities , some will be cultural , some will be sporting , and that plan will be developed on the basis of the age range of children , which in some cases may go from extremely young children up to those at the age of 16 in our all-through schools , but there will be a planned set of activities to cater for those children . what we are doing currently—i have staff back at cathays park who are in touch and working with directors of education to ensure that schools over the next two days will have been able to identify , at least at the earlier stage , in terms of health workers , the type and numbers of people . there are already schools who have informed us , and local authorities , of their plans for these activities to be starting next week , which is quite amazing , actually , given where we are . but we are expecting , and we 're writing to schools today , that during the course of next week , headteachers to be in schools , and with their staff , taking into consideration the health guidance as to which staff should or should not be in , and in that period from next monday through the two-week period , to easter , we expect staff to be both planning for delivery post easter , but also , as i said , building on and reflecting the good practice that 's already in place for schools that have engaged in activities , and i 'm sure a number of them will be inviting and enabling those children to come in on monday . so , monday will be a challenge for some , and not all will be delivering it , but we will be working so that we can get as much as possible delivered for those groups over the next two weeks , and particularly to have resilient programmes post easter for the groups of children in those three categories that i said . dawn bowden am: those that have been identified . can i just clarify one thing ? one of the identified vulnerable groups would clearly be children on the at-risk register . they would be included . steve davies: yes , definitely . vulnerable children , yes . kirsty williams am: in our discussions , we have asked local government to be working with the social services departments and individual schools to identify those children who may be in that situation . we know that , for some children , being at school is part of their safeguarding arrangements , and obviously we will need to be able to respond to those needs . steve davies: i wrote specifically yesterday to all directors of education to be assured that , for those children , the register is up to date and the plans are in place . i 'm working with albert heaney my colleague , the director for social services , who is meeting with the 22 directors of social services today to look to ensure that we are joined up in ensuring none of these children fall through the gap . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got a supplementary from hefin , and then suzy . hefin david am: a very quick and simple question : how are you going to communicate this to parents ? there 's a bigger picture and it 's changing all the time , as you said . the welsh government have a route to communication . the most helpful thing i 've seen is that public health wales have a single website with information regarding the wider issue of the virus . how will this then be cascaded to schools , because there 's obviously a time lag ? so , have you considered how this is going to be communicated directly to parents ? kirsty williams am: we 're using all of our platforms of communication to get these messages across . so , we 're using the more informal methods of communication , but are relying on a systematic approach via individual directors and through to individual schools . welsh government already has a dedicated website page with all of the relevant information about coronavirus . we 're looking , as quickly as we can , to have a frequently asked education questions page that we can update . understandably , people are communicating to us on twitter asking questions . it is impossible for the communications team here to be able to respond individually to every single person that is sending facebook messages and sending tweets , so the best way we can do that is to collate the types of questions people are asking and then to be able to have a frequently updated question and answer page to try to respond to that . with regard to parents , for instance , we 're aware of schools that have already sent a questionnaire out last night to parents saying , 'do you consider yourself to be a key worker ? do you work in the nhs ? please let us know by tomorrow so we can put arrangements in place for your children . ' so , schools are already taking the initiative and having those conversations with parents about what their needs will be . and , as i said , hefin , will it be perfect on monday ? no . it wo n't be perfect by monday , because we 're working to such constrained timescales . but we will continue to build that resilience . we also have to think about systems that look at what might the epidemic do and have systems of resilience that may work next week , given the situation we find ourselves in with public health advice at the moment . but that public health advice may change . therefore , have we got a system that will be resilient in those circumstances ? these are some of the challenges that we 're having to grapple with . so , as i said , what happens on monday might look very different to where we are if schools are still off in may . so , i hope people will understand that we are working in those kinds of scenarios . lynne neagle am: suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: yes , just on this question of vulnerable children , i 'm just wondering how much discretion teachers are going to have in including individual children who may not be obviously under social services ' care or on a risk register or whatever . teachers know their pupils and , very sensitively , they could include people who may not be obviously in need . kirsty williams am: we would absolutely respect the professional judgment of individual headteachers to be able to have those conversations with their directors . as you said , quite rightly , they are the individuals who know their children best and know which children , perhaps , will need this extra support . we will put no constraints on those teachers trying to do that work . suzy davies am: okay . the second part of my question is : there were going to be easter holidays anyway , were n't there ? what was going to happen about free-school-meal children during that period ? has that gone out of the window now , the normal holiday provision for children ? because that 's not there normally , is it , except in separate— kirsty williams am: we do find ourselves in a strange situation . my understanding is what we 're trying to work to is that we would have ongoing provision and not to make some strange , 'you get this for two weeks , then you do n't get it for two weeks , and then you 're back in . ' my understanding is , in england , that is what they 're going to do . we 're trying to create a system where it will be seamless and it will not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays . it wo n't matter to those nurses and doctors who will need to be in work during those weeks . we 're trying to create a system that will run uniformly . that 's our policy goal at the moment . lynne neagle am: helen mary . helen mary jones am: just briefly , building on suzy 's question , one particular group of children and young people that i hope will be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category is young carers . for some of them , they may not be able to come into school because the people they 're caring for may have to be excluded because of their conditions . but i think that , for other young carers , coming to school is an absolute lifeline , because they 're working at home . so , i do n't know if it 's appropriate for you to specifically mention those in discussions with local authorities , but it 's a group of young people who , again , may not be vulnerable in other ways , but because of their caring responsibilities they may need school . and the other group—and this , i suppose , goes back to suzy 's point about teachers knowing their young people—is the children who may be living in situations where they 're at risk of witnessing domestic abuse . again , these may very well not be children who are in any formal contact with social services , but being at home may be really not a good place for them to be . so , again , i 'd put in an appeal for that to be something that perhaps can be raised with schools . if a teacher is worried about what a child 's circumstances are like at home , whether they can be , as you said , kirsty , included as one of the— . they may not be formally identified , but if the teacher knows that they 're at risk , or there is an instinct that they 're at risk , they might be able to be included in children who are allowed to take advantage of this special provision you 're making at this difficult time . kirsty williams am: we will certainly raise those issues . we have to do that in the context of what is deliverable , and we also have to do that in the context of the public health advice that we are receiving as well . one of the reasons why schools are closing is to help manage this disease . we know that the ability for school closures to make a contribution to that diminishes if we have significant children in school still . so , we will take these issues into consideration , but remembering this is part of an epidemic mitigation plan . rob is the expert on that , not me . rob orford: yes , absolutely . this is a rapidly-evolving problem and the scale is something that we have n't seen in 100 years , and so we 're having to evolve and iterate things as we go . next week , i think , will look different to this week . so , it kind of is what it is . we 've all got a role to play , and schools certainly have a significant role to play in breaking those chains of transmission . areas that we 're worried about are displacement activities . if we close the schools , then people collect at others ' houses . we need to send a really clear message that you 're all part of the solution , and the things that you do by distancing yourselves from your friends and your family are really important for us to get on top of this outbreak . the more that we can do that , the easier it will be when we go forward . helen mary jones am: i 'm sure that that 's true , but i 'm sure that we would n't be wanting a child who 's in a very pressured environment with perhaps a very difficult relationship between mum and dad— . it may be very important for those children to be out of that for some of the time . hopefully , we 're talking about relatively small numbers , but i just— . kirsty williams am: we will look at vulnerability in a holistic way . lynne neagle am: janet , you had a supplementary . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair , and good morning , minister , and your team . can i just put on record my thanks for all that you 're having to endure at this moment ? i think it 's fair to say you have the support of assembly members and , indeed , our communities . now , the question i have : if cylch meithrin have to close , where will they get money from to pay their staff ? because , currently , thankfully , there 's support for businesses . lynne neagle am: janet , we 're not doing cylch meithrin at the moment ; we are sticking with schools , as we discussed in advance . dawn . dawn bowden am: can i just get some clarity , steve , around what you were saying in terms of next week ? because i think the practical applications of this—and i understand that you do n't know all of this yet , i understand that—the practical applications are what is coming to us , obviously , with constituents saying , 'well , what 's going to happen to that ? ' just so that i can be clear , are you saying that , at this stage , every headteacher will be in school on monday , as will all their staff ? steve davies: within the scope of the guidance in terms of their health , the expectation—and this will be conveyed in letters by the minister today , to be made clear—is that they are closing for the majority of pupils , but our expectation within the guidance is that the headteacher with their staff will be coming in ; for some to start the delivery of what we just described , but that will probably be small numbers , but more importantly to plan to ensure that , after the formal easter period , which is school holidays , the schools are geared to cater for the range of pupils that we 've been discussing . dawn bowden am: so , would you anticipate—again , i know this is all a bit 'if and when ' , and it depends on the changing nature of the advice , but from what you 're saying , i think we can probably anticipate that , as we go forward , there will probably be fewer schools opening and operable—that we may be moving those children on to fewer sites . would that possibly— ? kirsty williams am: that is a potential . so , we already know that one of our local authorities already has identified a strategic pattern of schools that they will want to operate in this way . that local authority has already chosen those locations , and is already having communications with how they will then staff those centres . so , that could well— . that , i expect , in the longer term , will be the nature of the provision that we will get to . but that 's not for us to dictate . the local authorities are best placed to understand what is the best , pragmatic use of the resources that they have available ; and of course those resources , primarily , are human beings . so , we 've talked a lot this morning in the context of teaching staff , teaching assistants , but we 're also having discussions with local authorities , and i met with the council for wales of voluntary youth services this week , to look at deploying youth workers , to look to be deploying other staff that the local authority may employ , like sports development officers . there may be cultural officers that can have something to offer . welsh government will be talking with a range of our partners who perhaps their normal activities ca n't continue at the moment , but actually have personnel who want to add to this effort , who want to be able to be part of a provision going forward in the longer term , to be able to provide a great place for children to be . we want to give parents , who we are asking— . let 's think about it , in these worst of times , we 're asking parents to leave their children so that they can go and do essential work , and some of that essential work is putting themselves at risk , potentially . and we want to give those parents confidence that , when they leave their child with us , that child will receive something really worthwhile , and they can direct all of their attention to doing their job . lynne neagle am: just before you— . janet , have you got a supplementary on schools now , not on early years settings ? janet finch-saunders am: i lost the signal before , so it 's a little bit confusing at this end , so bear with me . just in terms of the closure of schools , i have been asked by teachers what does new purpose—you may have covered it , but bear in mind [ inaudible . ] —mean in practice . and also , they 're already asking what will next— ? i know you said earlier that next week could look and probably will look significantly different than this week , but what can they expect to be happening next week in terms of this new purpose work ? lynne neagle am: we 've covered that , janet . kirsty williams am: first of all , janet , i just want to say thank you very much for your kind comments . that 's really , really kind of you . we will be sending a letter today to clarify those positions . so , each school will receive letters today about the expectations of schools next week . lynne neagle am: i think you 're having trouble hearing us , are n't you , so i think— ? janet finch-saunders am: no , i heard that loud and clear . lynne neagle am: but i think you missed the earlier comments , when we went into some detail on the new purpose of schools . so , i 'm sorry about that ; we are having some problems with the connection . janet finch-saunders am: yes , we could n't get a signal . lynne neagle am: dawn . dawn bowden am: just in relation to special schools and how they will fit into this new purpose arrangement . kirsty williams am: yes , they 're absolutely central to that planning . we know , again , that some of these children are our most vulnerable and they are some of our most pressurised families . therefore , the same situation that we 've just described for maintained schools also applies to special schools . we 'll be having discussions about what arrangements can be made for those children within their own usual settings . in some cases , that may not be possible . so , again , already local authorities are making different provision . can i give a shout out to the work of rhondda cynon taf in this regard , who are already doing some excellent work with regard to how they can keep in touch with their children who usually would attend their special schools . but , again , steve can give more detail . steve davies: i think special schools have already been hit by this challenge , because a significant proportion of their children , because of their conditions , have not been coming to school , they 've been isolated . but the principle we 've used there is , actually , even if it 's a minority of children who go to those schools and are vulnerable , they deserve and need that support through the school . so , we would expect that to function with the focus on vulnerable children . but similarly , even in special schools , there will be children whose parents will be key workers , so we would expect them to apply that same principle . just quickly in response to the earlier question , while we may bring some groups of children into separate schools , we ’ ll have to continue with the principle of keeping social distance and any provision for a child in a special school in a different setting would be unlikely , given the nature of the special school , so we would look to cater for that within the original school . dawn bowden am: just a couple more questions from me . it ’ s likely , because i know it has already happened , that some schools might actually close before monday . some schools have already partially closed . are you quite happy that headteachers still have the discretion to do that , if they feel that ’ s the right thing to do ? kirsty williams am: in this situation , the discretion of the head still remains . as i said , we will be communicating with all schools today about our expectations , if at all possible , to have schools open for staff to do some of this planning and to be able to respond to these priority needs that we 've just talked about . steve davies: the rationale of headteachers for closing schools up to now has been that they ca n't cope with the safety of the children . i think , moving forward , it 's unlikely that that would be a rationale that headteachers would want to use for not engaging and planning for the future . dawn bowden am: we 're only talking about one more day , now , anyway , are n't we ? so , just in terms of confirmed cases in schools , is your view at this stage that , if there is a confirmed case in a school , once that school has been deep-cleaned , it can reopen again ? kirsty williams am: if we had a confirmed case in a school , then all the usual mechanisms arranged by public health wales would kick in at that point . dawn bowden am: okay . and my final question is in relation to the position of early years and childcare settings . i know that kind of crosses over into somebody else 's portfolio as well , but i think we know that . certainly what i 've seen , and i 'm sure this is true elsewhere as well , we 've seen nurseries closing down because the parents are actually taking the children out of those nurseries . i 've got one in particular , there are kids from the ages of 6 to 12 years in there , and the parents are taking them out . they 've got 30 staff there , catering for 200 children and no children to care for and the organisation , at this stage , is unable to claim on their insurance for the ongoing payment of those staff wages . is there any advice that we can give to people in that situation at this stage ? kirsty williams am: sure . as you say , many of these settings are businesses—people 's businesses and they play a hugely important role and it 's a very worrying time for them . we have said that we will continue to pay for childcare , delivered under the childcare offer even when a child is unable , or a parent is unwilling , to take up that place . so , if that setting is receiving a childcare payment from the welsh government as part of our childcare offer , that will be paid , regardless of whether that child attends or not . and i know that we 're also working with local authorities to ensure a similar position on flying start childcare and early education . so , that payment will be made , regardless of whether a child is attending . it 's also important that childcare settings will be able to apply for the various packages of support that are being made available by my colleague , ken skates . lynne neagle am: hefin , then janet . hefin david am: yes , i 'd just like to turn that around from the parents ' point of view . with schools closing , there are a lot of parents then losing 10 hours of free childcare , but from a settings point of view , they 'll continue to be able to receive , for the time being , the nursery care . kirsty williams am: yes , so the decision that has been taken by my colleague , julie morgan , is that settings should stay open at the moment unless public health changes . that 's being kept under constant review on public health . again , the issue is that we know that that childcare is vital to many families , especially—and we 're particularly concerned about those individuals who are trying to help us overcome and solve these problems . if you have any specific questions about that , we 'll be happy to take them back to julie morgan . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: is this the cylch question ? lynne neagle am: yes , please . janet finch-saunders am: sorry , thank you . yes , just basically , cylch meithrin , there are concerns— [ interruption . ] lynne neagle am: we 've lost janet . we 'll come back to her . kirsty williams am: i think if the issue is about funding for cylch meithrin , these are not normal circumstances . as a welsh government , we will take every step to provide continuity of funding , if at all possible . we will overcome this , and when we overcome this situation we find ourselves in , we will need those childcare settings , we will need those private businesses and we will need our cylch meithrin to be there to respond and to be able to go on doing the job that they usually do for us . and if there is any way that we can , as a government , ensure that that happens by carrying on funding things , even if they are not able to run , all usual— [ inaudible . ] — around service-level agreements are off . i 'm not setting the precedent—let me make that absolutely clear . [ laughter . ] but , you know , we will not undermine businesses and voluntary provision like cylch by withdrawing welsh government funding . i hope i 've been clear . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you for that . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , kirsty . lynne neagle am: if we can move on to talk about exams , obviously you made the announcement yesterday . i completely understand that everything is a very fast-moving situation , but , as you know , there are a lot of questions that people have about young people who 've put a lot of work in . are you able to tell us any more today ? in particular , have you got any idea about timescales now for setting out what the approach will be to handling the lack of summer exams ? kirsty williams am: yes , it is a devastating decision to have to have been taken , but i have done so on the very , very clear and unambiguous advice from qualifications wales . i met with qualifications wales and the wjec yesterday . what was most important to them was that i made an early decision and i did not equivocate on what would happen for the exams . i was able to make an informal decision at that meeting , and then , of course , there is a formal process that we have to go through . that , now , allows qualifications wales and the exam board to operationalise that decision , and they will be communicating with schools as quickly as possible about what schools will need to do to ensure that the systems that they will now put in place can work . we are trying , as far as we can , as i understand it , to be able to mirror as closely as possible the usual results day , for instance . it might not be possible , because , of course , we 're dealing with a situation that requires human beings to be involved in it , and those human beings could find themselves unwell . so , our best attempts will be to maintain the normal rhythm of an exams day in august , but that has to be caveated by the fact that we 're dealing with difficult circumstances . but , the wjec and qualifications wales will be making urgent communications to exam centres to explain what will need to happen next . lynne neagle am: okay . janet , you had a question on this . janet finch-saunders am: yes , i think i raised it yesterday , kirsty , but you were receiving loads of questions . i 'd just ask for some further clarification about coursework , because only 30 per cent of that is done . years 11 and 13 , typically , in my case they 're what 's been raised with me—do you have any advice for them ? kirsty williams am: okay , so , all exams are cancelled , but year 11 and year 13 will be given a grade—i think that 's a distinction that people need to be aware of . that is because those years and those grades are gateway qualifications , and they are points of movement in the education system . so , it 's really important for those students that they are not disadvantaged in any way by not being able to receive a grade that helps them to make a decision as a qualifying step into what they will do next , whether that be university , whether that be a degree apprenticeship or whether that be going into sixth form , into a college , into an apprenticeship or into some work-based learning opportunities . that 's why we have to focus on those children , because for them , it is absolutely critical that we do . we are at an advantage in wales , can i say ? because of the nature of our examination system , those students already have a lot of externally assessed work that we can use as a basis to move forward on . because we 've kept our as-levels , we have got that data . because we have a gcse system— . our year 11s , if they 're doing triple science , they 've already done 40 per cent of their paper , so we 're very fortunate . because of the structures that we have got in our qualification system , there is already lots and lots of externally-verified work that we can use , alongside , potentially , teacher evaluation of students as well . and i think that 's really important . we ’ re starting from a better base than simply having none of that externally-verified data . what will also be important is that these children have confidence in those qualifications , and so we will be looking at a modulated arrangement within wales , and i know that qualifications wales are discussing with their counterparts across the uk a modulated system across the uk . so , actually , we can make sure that our standards are maintained by actually having that modulation across the uk . so , we know that those children never have to worry about the rigour that has gone into determining that grade . so , they can have real confidence . lynne neagle am: okay . helen mary . helen mary jones am: thank you . a supplementary question that might feed into that moderation . you 'll know that the national union of students has suggested that black and minority ethnic children and children from the working class , on the whole , do n't do as well , in terms of their assessment by their own teachers . i do n't know what their evidence is for that . we also know , of course , that boys tend to do better in exams , and girls tend to do better at coursework , for whatever reason that is . so , just to ask you at this early stage to build in those considerations around potential unconscious bias into that overall system that you 're talking about . and , of course , you are right to say that , because we have got some elements of external moderation here , those factors may be less for us in wales than they might for colleagues in england . kirsty williams am: yes , i think we are starting at a different base , thank goodness . so , you 're quite right . as i said , students will have done unit 1 papers last year if they 're gcse students . dare i say it , some might even have done early entry . so , we still have elements of coursework that are externally verified . so , children might well have done lots of oral exams in their english and in their welsh language . so , we have lots of pieces of work that will have been externally verified . i certainly will ensure that these concerns are passed on . i 'm sure that qualifications wales are thinking about it . i have every confidence that they and the wjec will come up with a very comprehensive way of establishing those grades , but i have to say , in some ways , i have to step back now , because you would not expect me , in normal circumstances , to dictate to the wjec how much percentage goes for that , and how much percentage is allocated for that ; that would not be appropriate for a minister . my job is to make the decision on the examinations on the basis of having confidence that what can be put in place is fair and is equitable , and i have confidence that that will be the case . helen mary jones am: thank you . lynne neagle am: suzy . suzy davies am: a few things from me . one is , obviously , pupils are being asked to work at home as well now , some of whom will be doing gcse and a-level courses . so , there 's just a question , generally , from me— because we 're encouraging these kids to carry on working—how that will be accommodated by qualifications wales , i guess , in this modulation process . it may be that your at-home work will be of a higher standard or a lower standard than a teacher would be expecting . secondly , you mentioned the as-levels , of course , as being of value at the moment , but we 've got people in year 12 who now wo n't be doing their ass . is there any steer at this stage about what they will be expected to do ? will they be doing two sets of exams next year , for example ? or is as just off the table ? in which case , how are the a2s going to be calculated in due course ? and then , finally from me , we do have some vocational qualifications that are up for examination as well—your btecs , and i think it 's the association of accounting technicians , which is a lot of computer-based learning—which is due to be examined within three weeks . those aren ’ t a-levels or gcses . i appreciate that you may not have the answer just at the moment , but are they off as well is the question , i guess ? kirsty williams am: with regard to as-levels—no final decision has been made for exactly how those students will be treated . there are a range of options that could be used , but again , we will want to be thinking about student well-being , fairness and equity in that regard , and i will update members as soon as i have received definitive advice from qualifications wales around that , and that has n't happened yet . with regard to other types of qualifications , as you will be aware , the vast majority of btecs is a modular , continually-assessed piece of work , and we would have every expectation that btecs will be able to be awarded , but clearly , those conversations are with awarding bodies—they tend to be uk awarding bodies , rather then necessarily our wjec exam board—and those conversations are ongoing . but i have every expectation that those qualifications will be awarded and , of course , because of their nature there 's even more evidence of continued assessment . huw , i do n't know if there 's anything else that you would like to add about those types of qualifications . huw morris: no . i think you 've covered most of it . i do n't have a definitive answer for the att qualification , but we can look into that and come back to you . suzy davies am: well , i 've just had a constituent ask , so that would be very helpful . and homeworking— kirsty williams am: homeworking , right . suzy davies am: —is that going to count towards the assessments , overall assessments ? kirsty williams am: well , potentially , as i said . i do n't know the exact elements . what will be absolutely necessary is that qualifications wales and the wjec will be able to give absolute clarity and simplicity around how those grades will be arrived at , because parents , teachers and students will want to know that , and my expectation is on them to be able to clearly communicate what elements will and will not be taken into consideration when awarding those grades . suzy davies am: that 's great . at least we covered it . thank you , minister—thank you , kirsty . lynne neagle am: and , just before we move on , have the universities across the uk indicated that they are content with this approach going forward—content to accept students on this basis ? kirsty williams am: certainly . there have been discussions with universities and ucas , of course , that this also has a bearing on . one of the— . and the views of university and how university terms might be impacted is one of the ways and one of the reasons that we 've factored in to making these decisions . those discussions with universities are ongoing , are n't they , huw ? huw morris: yes . so , we 've been in regular conversation with universities wales and through them with universities uk and we 've received every indication that the approach that 's been adopted here has been welcomed by the institutions . those conversations will continue as we work through the practicalities of how the gradings that are awarded are going to feed through into university admissions decisions and enrolment . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . well , we 've got some questions now from suzy on the potential closures of colleges and universities . suzy davies am: okay . well , it 's a very general question , really . i appreciate you 've already indicated there are lots of ongoing conversations , but my understanding is whether colleges or universities close is pretty much still at their own discretion . we 're going to be asking some questions on emergency legislation shortly , which may impact on the answer you can give today , but what sort of conversations are you having with fe and he at the moment about how they decide ? kirsty williams am: well , you 're absolutely right . as we often say in this committee , universities are autonomous institutions—a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question . universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them . colleges are in a similar position , looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods , and the bill , potentially , does give us more powers of intervention in both the fe and the he sector . suzy davies am: i might ask you about that in a minute , because i do n't even know what the bill says yet . kirsty williams am: huw , i do n't know if there 's anything you want to add . huw morris: no—just to confirm what 's been said and also to add in that independent training providers , similarly autonomous , like colleges and universities , have been moving in the same direction . we 've been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that 's been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies . we 've got consistency in the approach and a common desire , and investment in moving towards online support for students . suzy davies am: and there 's still this safety net idea . certainly , colleges have indicated , as with schools , that , for the most vulnerable learners , they 'll have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis . huw morris: that 's my understanding , yes , and , again , we 've been in regular conversation with them about that . my understanding is that they 're going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions . suzy davies am: that 's fair enough . and , presumably , education maintenance allowance will still be paid . kirsty williams am: yes . arrangements have been made to ensure that ema continues to be paid to all students who are entitled . suzy davies am: that 's right . you indicated that any welsh government support 's going to stay , whatever the circumstances are—in your portfolio . kirsty williams am: yes . i 'm doing my best , but it 's an absolute yes on the ema . there will be no disruption to ema . suzy davies am: okay . you might get some further questions on he and fe . lynne neagle am: yes . we 've got some further questions , indeed , from helen mary and then hefin . helen mary jones am: now or in a bit ? lynne neagle am: yes . helen mary jones am: just further to ema , of course , at the moment , that has an attendance qualification , does n't it ? and you do n't get your ema if you do n't turn up . should we take from your last answer that that attendance qualification does n't apply anymore ? kirsty williams am: yes . they ca n't turn up if the institution is not open , and that 's not their fault . helen mary jones am: no , but that is something that 's been a worry , so that 's really encouraging to hear . thinking about students in higher education , can you give an assurance that student maintenance payments will continue as normal ? is that the intention ? kirsty williams am: yes . helen mary jones am: that 's really good to hear . and have you given any special ministerial instruction to student finance wales on processing applications for support or changes of circumstances , or is that something that 's kind of ongoing at the moment ? kirsty williams am: those conversations are ongoing with the student loans company . as i said , we anticipate no disruption to— . we do n't anticipate any change in the approach to students as a result of this . individual student circumstances could well change and our expectation would be that the student loans company would respond to that . all i would say is , just to remind people : people who work for the student loans company are no more able to resist this disease than anybody else . there will undoubtedly in some cases be really practical challenges to service delivery , simply because organisations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they are reacting to social-distancing messages from the government . so , i think we just need to bear that in mind : that these organisations are doing their best , but , if they are badly affected by staff numbers being off because of the virus , then i hope people will give them due consideration . helen mary jones am: yes , that makes sense , of course , because we 've been told that universities wo n't be able to entirely close , because there will be students who ca n't go home— kirsty williams am: it is their home . helen mary jones am: —overseas students , for example . what discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students ' basic needs are met , that there 's still food , shelter , whatever they need ? kirsty williams am: well , obviously , universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances , and every conversation that huw 's been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that . huw morris: we instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease , not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in china and other parts of south-east asia . and so , as the disease has progressed , we 've seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the uk , and i am assured that the universities here in wales have got processes in place that support those learners . helen mary jones am: that 's really helpful . and on this specifically—last question from me— have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees , should the academic year not be completed ? huw morris: so , as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online , clearly , there are lessons that will need to be taken on board . there are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs . the intention in all of these institutions is that they will complete their course of study . there are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed . failing those institutional mechanisms , there is a uk-wide system through the office of the independent adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have . so , we 're confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs . lynne neagle am: okay . suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: no , mr morris has answered my question . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've got a couple more questions now on vulnerable learners . i 've got helen mary , then hefin . helen mary jones am: i think , chair , the minister has already answered what the— . but thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and well-being of staff and learners across a range of educational settings , or , indeed , young people who ca n't access educational settings , what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and well-being might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone ? kirsty williams am: yes , that is correct . so , our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure—which i think , if we 're honest , we have to acknowledge is what we 're looking at—we would expect school staff—well-being staff , for instance in school—to be doing check-ins—phone check-ins , potentially , or facetime check-ins , with students , just to keep in touch with them as we go forward . we 'll be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available—so , for instance , meic website—so , looking to use a variety of platforms . we do , of course , have the formal nhs counselling services . i 'm concerned , of course , that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school . we know that , and we 're just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists—online counselling tools that children already use because they do n't want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor . they 're already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue , as far as possible , those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered , and their worries . i think we have to remember that this is a really worrying time for children and young people . one of the reasons , again , that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible—and teachers have been working so hard to do that—is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we 've needed and wanted to maintain . children will have worries about their own health ; they 'll have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents ; they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves . so , we need to understand , and i think we will also have to recognise , that this support will have to be ongoing once we 're back to normal , and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience . they are incredibly resilient , and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages . they are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole 'washing your hands ' and things like that than even adults have been . so , they are incredibly resilient , but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them . helen mary jones am: can i just— ? just a supplementary to that—you 've mentioned already , kirsty , the importance of youth services , and , particularly thinking voluntarily youth services , you 've given the commitment , when were talking about mudiad ysgolion meithrin earlier , that services that are part-funded by grants through the welsh government , for example , thinking of the national youth voluntary service—will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well ? obviously , local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open , but , in terms of the direct support from welsh government , can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time ? kirsty williams am: no formal decision has been made , but if people are in receipt of a government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public— helen mary jones am: because it 's not safe . kirsty williams am: —because it 's not safe to do so , i do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying , 'we 'll have our money back , thank you very much . ' lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . helen mary jones am: that will make a lot of people happy , thank you . [ laughter . ] kirsty williams am: as i said , we are facing unprecedented circumstances . the normal rules of engagement have to change and , those organisations , we 'll need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal , and we would n't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that . our call to the youth service is a call to arms , though . when we 're trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for front-line staff children , they have a valuable role to play and i know that local government and the council for wales of voluntary youth services are already in discussion about how youth services— . many of our youth services work on an outreach basis . those traditional youth clubs , because of austerity , are not necessarily there anymore , so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work , and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier . helen mary jones am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin , briefly , and then we 're going to take one final question from suzy on emergency legislation . hefin david am: all right . i 'll declare an interest as a parent of a child with additional learning needs , although the question i 'm about to ask does n't reflect her interests . additional learning needs pupils who are waiting outcomes of referrals—if they 're currently waiting an outcome of a referral , will that process will be suspended or will it continue as normal ? and , if it is suspended , will it pick up where it left off from this point ? kirsty williams am: i think we have to recognise that the ability to deliver business as usual has been massively compromised . i 'm sure people will try and continue to do their normal activities and their normal jobs , but that might not be possible . i will have to check that , hefin , to be honest . i do n't want to give you any false assurance if , actually , the intelligence on the ground is that that simply will not be able to happen . but we don't— hefin david am: can we have a clear line on that ? kirsty williams am: we do n't want to jeopardise anybody , but as i said , some of the normal services are simply not available as everybody turns their attention to trying to respond to the pandemic . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . final question—because i know that the minister 's got a lot of things that she needs to get on with—from suzy on emergency legislation . suzy davies am: i 'm not going to ask you if you 'll use any powers you get under the emergency legislation , but are you able to give us some indication of what they might be ? kirsty williams am: sure . for instance , the bill will provide welsh ministers with powers to temporarily close schools or other educational institutions , childcare premises ; powers to give temporary continuity direction—so , actually , the other way around , force things to be open—and to be able to direct resources . so , that includes , as i said , i could direct something to stay open if that institution was trying to close down . the powers also give flexibility to maybe be able to direct staff to other institutions that they would not normally work in , if that was part of our resilience needs . we 'd also be looking at , for instance , relaxing requirements around ratios in childcare settings , or we might be wanting to do things around food . so , obviously , we have rules around the level of nutrition that schools should be giving their children . if there is a continuing role for schools in providing food , we might have to be a bit more flexible about what that might look like . so , those kinds of flexibilities—to be able to suspend things , direct things—that we would not normally have in normal circumstances . suzy davies am: okay . and just to finish this one off—you may not be able to answer this one , in all fairness—in those situations where it 's the government who says 'no ' to various things , does that then help people in the situation of dawn 's nursery , and insurance claims suddenly become more likely ? kirsty williams am: i 'm not an expert on insurance , and i do n't know if anybody here can help me . but what my understanding is , is that even where government has given a direction that does not necessarily mean that you will be covered by your insurance . what we 're finding in the private sector is that insurance companies are not paying out , because even when a government has directed it , they do not regard this as a disruption to business . so , the insurance industry is not my area of expertise . suzy davies am: no , no , i accept that . kirsty williams am: it 's not my area of expertise , but from what i understand from discussions around the cabinet table , this is particularly problematic . let me give you an example about how we 've been trying to overcome some of this—it feels like an awfully long time ago now— you 'll be aware that we gave directions earlier around cancellation of school trips abroad . trying to make sure that that direction came from the foreign and commonwealth office , rather than the department for education was a real battle , because again there were fears that , unless that advice came from the foreign and commonwealth office , insurance would not kick in , and that was a two-day discussion . suzy davies am: okay . this is helpful to know , actually . kirsty williams am: so , these are the kinds of things that we 're grappling with . but , as i said , thinking about it , that was only last week , but it feels like an aeon ago . suzy davies am: i 'm not holding you to that , but it helps us manage the questions we get asked . kirsty williams am: yes , but as i said , insurance is not my area of expertise . suzy davies am: no , but thank you for answering . lynne neagle am: okay . well , we 've come to the end of our time . can i thank you for attending this morning , and your officials ? we do recognise what an incredibly challenging time this is , and we 'd like to place on record our thanks to all of you for the work that you 're doing to try and see us through this crisis . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . thank you again , all of you , for your attendance . item 3 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

basically , the children , young people and education committee 's meeting was about the current situations and policies regarding schools , students and staff during the covid-19 pandemic . dealing with this pandemic was extremely challenging and the government had to make decisions quickly to ensure public safety . the main concern as the education minister was to protect all staff and pupils in schools and other educational settings . their belief was that no child shall miss out on any education , unless absolutely necessary . from next week , schools would have a new proposal which would help support those most in need , including people involved in the immediate response to the coronavirus outbreak . the key was that they were looking at supporting and safeguarding the vulnerable and ensuring continuity of learning , which included all of those who benefited from free school meals and children with additional learning needs . what they needed to do now was to do all the work together as they were facing the continuing challenges posed by the coronavirus .

summarize the discussion about policies and measures related to free-school-meal children during the pandemic . </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . i 've received apologies for absence from siân gwenllian , and i 'm very pleased to welcome helen mary jones , who is substituting for siân today . can i ask whether members want to declare any interests , please ? can i just , then , place on record that i have got a son who was about to do a-levels , so is affected by the exam decision ? we 'll move on , then , to our substantive item today , which is an evidence session with the welsh government around the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on education in wales . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams , minister for education ; steve davies , who is director of the education directorate ; huw morris , who is the group director , skills , higher education and lifelong learning ; and rob orford , who is the chief scientific adviser for health . thank you all for coming . we know that this is a really difficult and pressurised time for everyone , and we appreciate your attendance . minister , i understand you wanted to make an opening statement today . kirsty williams am: yes , if that 's okay , chair . as you know , it 's not usually my practice to do that , but i think it is important today . covid-19 coronavirus is one of the most significant issues that the welsh government and the people of wales have dealt with in recent times . dealing with the impacts of this pandemic is extremely challenging . things are changing on an hourly basis , and we have to make decisions quickly to ensure public safety . but i would like to assure you that our aim , and my aim , and my main concern as the education minister is to protect all staff and pupils in our schools and other educational settings . but we also have a duty to ensure continuing and continuity of education . public health is clearly the priority here , but that does not change our belief that no child should miss out on any education , unless absolutely necessary . so , the decision to close all schools from tomorrow for statutory education provision was not taken lightly , but i believe it was necessary , given the advice and recommendations that we had received from a public health perspective and the situation that was developing on the ground . from next week , schools will have a new purpose . they will help support those most in need , including people involved in the immediate response to the coronavirus outbreak , and i 'm working with my colleagues in the cabinet , with government officials and our partners in local government to develop and finalise these plans . the key areas that we 're looking at are supporting and safeguarding the vulnerable and ensuring continuity of learning . this includes all of those who benefit from free school meals and children with additional learning needs . i can confirm that all maintained schools in wales already have access to a range of digital tools that can support distance learning through the world-class hwb digital learning platform , including virtual classrooms and video-conferencing facilities . a guide on what tools are available and how schools can use them has been developed and is being promoted widely . yesterday , i announced that , whilst there are no easy choices , we have agreed that the best way forward is not to proceed with the summer exam series . learners due to sit these exams will be awarded a fair grade to recognise their work , drawing on a range of information that is available , and i will announce further details shortly , but i felt it necessary to give early certainty to students and to staff . i would like to put on record my thanks to everyone working in education settings for the hard work that they have put in over the last few months in dealing with the virus and ensuring that pupils have been able to continue to learn . we need to continue to do this work together , as we face the continuing challenges posed by the coronavirus . diolch yn fawr . lynne neagle am: thank you very much , minister , for that statement . we 'll go to questions from members now , and i 've got some questions from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . can i thank you , kirsty , for your statement and the really difficult decisions that you 've been having to make ? you 've already indicated in your statement this morning that these decisions are not taken lightly , and we understand that that is the case across government . so , thank you for what you 've been doing . you 've outlined a little bit further there in your statement to us this morning about the new purpose . i take from what you 're saying that you have n't really developed that yet in terms of exactly what that is going to look like . you 've talked about the children of key workers , free school meals , additional learning needs . is there anything else you can tell us about that at the moment and how you might staff the schools in those particular areas ? kirsty williams am: thank you , dawn . so , you're absolutely right , our priority now is to operationalise , with colleagues in local government and schools , a practical response . and i have to say , we 're working to timescales that i would have hoped to have avoided , but given the fact that we 're having to make these decisions quite quickly , i hope that you will understand that perhaps where we start on monday might change when we have more time and more opportunities to develop programmes going forward . steve will be able to give you more details of the practical work that has already been going on , but our expectation will be that schools will be playing an important part in providing safe and secure places for children of those on the front-line response to dealing with the coronavirus to attend , and work is already under way with local authorities and individual schools on what that will look like for the emergency situation on monday . our other priority is indeed free school meals , and , again , where we eventually end up might be a different place to where we are on monday . again , we 're responding to the emergency situation that there will be families that were expecting a free school meal on monday , and , again , individual schools and local authorities are developing those plans at pace to be able to provide an emergency response as we work out a longer term plan to deal with the situation . the same thing also goes for additional learning needs , and attending to the needs of that particular group of learners . so , those conversations began a few days ago . i had the opportunity to meet with the first minister and andrew morgan , the leader of the welsh local government association , yesterday to talk about what local government could do , and what they were already doing . those plans in some places are already quite developed , and are now working at pace , but i hope you will understand that where we start on monday is the emergency response , and that work will develop as we go forward . but , steve , perhaps you could— ? because steve was the one making all those phone calls and doing the practical operational stuff , rather than me . steve . steve davies: in short , the new purpose is to meet the needs of particular groups of children and young people . in some cases , some of the response to supporting free school meals , in the short term in particular , we may use the schools as part of that , and i 'm certain that will happen in some cases . the second area is looking at how we support the children of key workers . now , there is still work to be done on identifying exactly the categories of key workers , but i think it 's really encouraging that in my discussions yesterday—i spoke with all 22 directors of education , and the examples we 're picking up in their work with schools is they 're already ahead of the curve in working with schools . so , schools have identified the number of children with health workers . it will grow , and we will need to look at that range . then , the third area is vulnerable children . they 're vulnerable sometimes in terms of education other than at school , vulnerable in terms of mental health , and for those children , as well as having an experience that we want to be planned , some have compared it to a snow day , particularly on monday , when you 're putting something together in the short term , but it will not be a formal curriculum that those children would normally go through . so , the range of activities—some will be focused on educational activities , some will be cultural , some will be sporting , and that plan will be developed on the basis of the age range of children , which in some cases may go from extremely young children up to those at the age of 16 in our all-through schools , but there will be a planned set of activities to cater for those children . what we are doing currently—i have staff back at cathays park who are in touch and working with directors of education to ensure that schools over the next two days will have been able to identify , at least at the earlier stage , in terms of health workers , the type and numbers of people . there are already schools who have informed us , and local authorities , of their plans for these activities to be starting next week , which is quite amazing , actually , given where we are . but we are expecting , and we 're writing to schools today , that during the course of next week , headteachers to be in schools , and with their staff , taking into consideration the health guidance as to which staff should or should not be in , and in that period from next monday through the two-week period , to easter , we expect staff to be both planning for delivery post easter , but also , as i said , building on and reflecting the good practice that 's already in place for schools that have engaged in activities , and i 'm sure a number of them will be inviting and enabling those children to come in on monday . so , monday will be a challenge for some , and not all will be delivering it , but we will be working so that we can get as much as possible delivered for those groups over the next two weeks , and particularly to have resilient programmes post easter for the groups of children in those three categories that i said . dawn bowden am: those that have been identified . can i just clarify one thing ? one of the identified vulnerable groups would clearly be children on the at-risk register . they would be included . steve davies: yes , definitely . vulnerable children , yes . kirsty williams am: in our discussions , we have asked local government to be working with the social services departments and individual schools to identify those children who may be in that situation . we know that , for some children , being at school is part of their safeguarding arrangements , and obviously we will need to be able to respond to those needs . steve davies: i wrote specifically yesterday to all directors of education to be assured that , for those children , the register is up to date and the plans are in place . i 'm working with albert heaney my colleague , the director for social services , who is meeting with the 22 directors of social services today to look to ensure that we are joined up in ensuring none of these children fall through the gap . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got a supplementary from hefin , and then suzy . hefin david am: a very quick and simple question : how are you going to communicate this to parents ? there 's a bigger picture and it 's changing all the time , as you said . the welsh government have a route to communication . the most helpful thing i 've seen is that public health wales have a single website with information regarding the wider issue of the virus . how will this then be cascaded to schools , because there 's obviously a time lag ? so , have you considered how this is going to be communicated directly to parents ? kirsty williams am: we 're using all of our platforms of communication to get these messages across . so , we 're using the more informal methods of communication , but are relying on a systematic approach via individual directors and through to individual schools . welsh government already has a dedicated website page with all of the relevant information about coronavirus . we 're looking , as quickly as we can , to have a frequently asked education questions page that we can update . understandably , people are communicating to us on twitter asking questions . it is impossible for the communications team here to be able to respond individually to every single person that is sending facebook messages and sending tweets , so the best way we can do that is to collate the types of questions people are asking and then to be able to have a frequently updated question and answer page to try to respond to that . with regard to parents , for instance , we 're aware of schools that have already sent a questionnaire out last night to parents saying , 'do you consider yourself to be a key worker ? do you work in the nhs ? please let us know by tomorrow so we can put arrangements in place for your children . ' so , schools are already taking the initiative and having those conversations with parents about what their needs will be . and , as i said , hefin , will it be perfect on monday ? no . it wo n't be perfect by monday , because we 're working to such constrained timescales . but we will continue to build that resilience . we also have to think about systems that look at what might the epidemic do and have systems of resilience that may work next week , given the situation we find ourselves in with public health advice at the moment . but that public health advice may change . therefore , have we got a system that will be resilient in those circumstances ? these are some of the challenges that we 're having to grapple with . so , as i said , what happens on monday might look very different to where we are if schools are still off in may . so , i hope people will understand that we are working in those kinds of scenarios . lynne neagle am: suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: yes , just on this question of vulnerable children , i 'm just wondering how much discretion teachers are going to have in including individual children who may not be obviously under social services ' care or on a risk register or whatever . teachers know their pupils and , very sensitively , they could include people who may not be obviously in need . kirsty williams am: we would absolutely respect the professional judgment of individual headteachers to be able to have those conversations with their directors . as you said , quite rightly , they are the individuals who know their children best and know which children , perhaps , will need this extra support . we will put no constraints on those teachers trying to do that work . suzy davies am: okay . the second part of my question is : there were going to be easter holidays anyway , were n't there ? what was going to happen about free-school-meal children during that period ? has that gone out of the window now , the normal holiday provision for children ? because that 's not there normally , is it , except in separate— kirsty williams am: we do find ourselves in a strange situation . my understanding is what we 're trying to work to is that we would have ongoing provision and not to make some strange , 'you get this for two weeks , then you do n't get it for two weeks , and then you 're back in . ' my understanding is , in england , that is what they 're going to do . we 're trying to create a system where it will be seamless and it will not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays . it wo n't matter to those nurses and doctors who will need to be in work during those weeks . we 're trying to create a system that will run uniformly . that 's our policy goal at the moment . lynne neagle am: helen mary . helen mary jones am: just briefly , building on suzy 's question , one particular group of children and young people that i hope will be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category is young carers . for some of them , they may not be able to come into school because the people they 're caring for may have to be excluded because of their conditions . but i think that , for other young carers , coming to school is an absolute lifeline , because they 're working at home . so , i do n't know if it 's appropriate for you to specifically mention those in discussions with local authorities , but it 's a group of young people who , again , may not be vulnerable in other ways , but because of their caring responsibilities they may need school . and the other group—and this , i suppose , goes back to suzy 's point about teachers knowing their young people—is the children who may be living in situations where they 're at risk of witnessing domestic abuse . again , these may very well not be children who are in any formal contact with social services , but being at home may be really not a good place for them to be . so , again , i 'd put in an appeal for that to be something that perhaps can be raised with schools . if a teacher is worried about what a child 's circumstances are like at home , whether they can be , as you said , kirsty , included as one of the— . they may not be formally identified , but if the teacher knows that they 're at risk , or there is an instinct that they 're at risk , they might be able to be included in children who are allowed to take advantage of this special provision you 're making at this difficult time . kirsty williams am: we will certainly raise those issues . we have to do that in the context of what is deliverable , and we also have to do that in the context of the public health advice that we are receiving as well . one of the reasons why schools are closing is to help manage this disease . we know that the ability for school closures to make a contribution to that diminishes if we have significant children in school still . so , we will take these issues into consideration , but remembering this is part of an epidemic mitigation plan . rob is the expert on that , not me . rob orford: yes , absolutely . this is a rapidly-evolving problem and the scale is something that we have n't seen in 100 years , and so we 're having to evolve and iterate things as we go . next week , i think , will look different to this week . so , it kind of is what it is . we 've all got a role to play , and schools certainly have a significant role to play in breaking those chains of transmission . areas that we 're worried about are displacement activities . if we close the schools , then people collect at others ' houses . we need to send a really clear message that you 're all part of the solution , and the things that you do by distancing yourselves from your friends and your family are really important for us to get on top of this outbreak . the more that we can do that , the easier it will be when we go forward . helen mary jones am: i 'm sure that that 's true , but i 'm sure that we would n't be wanting a child who 's in a very pressured environment with perhaps a very difficult relationship between mum and dad— . it may be very important for those children to be out of that for some of the time . hopefully , we 're talking about relatively small numbers , but i just— . kirsty williams am: we will look at vulnerability in a holistic way . lynne neagle am: janet , you had a supplementary . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair , and good morning , minister , and your team . can i just put on record my thanks for all that you 're having to endure at this moment ? i think it 's fair to say you have the support of assembly members and , indeed , our communities . now , the question i have : if cylch meithrin have to close , where will they get money from to pay their staff ? because , currently , thankfully , there 's support for businesses . lynne neagle am: janet , we 're not doing cylch meithrin at the moment ; we are sticking with schools , as we discussed in advance . dawn . dawn bowden am: can i just get some clarity , steve , around what you were saying in terms of next week ? because i think the practical applications of this—and i understand that you do n't know all of this yet , i understand that—the practical applications are what is coming to us , obviously , with constituents saying , 'well , what 's going to happen to that ? ' just so that i can be clear , are you saying that , at this stage , every headteacher will be in school on monday , as will all their staff ? steve davies: within the scope of the guidance in terms of their health , the expectation—and this will be conveyed in letters by the minister today , to be made clear—is that they are closing for the majority of pupils , but our expectation within the guidance is that the headteacher with their staff will be coming in ; for some to start the delivery of what we just described , but that will probably be small numbers , but more importantly to plan to ensure that , after the formal easter period , which is school holidays , the schools are geared to cater for the range of pupils that we 've been discussing . dawn bowden am: so , would you anticipate—again , i know this is all a bit 'if and when ' , and it depends on the changing nature of the advice , but from what you 're saying , i think we can probably anticipate that , as we go forward , there will probably be fewer schools opening and operable—that we may be moving those children on to fewer sites . would that possibly— ? kirsty williams am: that is a potential . so , we already know that one of our local authorities already has identified a strategic pattern of schools that they will want to operate in this way . that local authority has already chosen those locations , and is already having communications with how they will then staff those centres . so , that could well— . that , i expect , in the longer term , will be the nature of the provision that we will get to . but that 's not for us to dictate . the local authorities are best placed to understand what is the best , pragmatic use of the resources that they have available ; and of course those resources , primarily , are human beings . so , we 've talked a lot this morning in the context of teaching staff , teaching assistants , but we 're also having discussions with local authorities , and i met with the council for wales of voluntary youth services this week , to look at deploying youth workers , to look to be deploying other staff that the local authority may employ , like sports development officers . there may be cultural officers that can have something to offer . welsh government will be talking with a range of our partners who perhaps their normal activities ca n't continue at the moment , but actually have personnel who want to add to this effort , who want to be able to be part of a provision going forward in the longer term , to be able to provide a great place for children to be . we want to give parents , who we are asking— . let 's think about it , in these worst of times , we 're asking parents to leave their children so that they can go and do essential work , and some of that essential work is putting themselves at risk , potentially . and we want to give those parents confidence that , when they leave their child with us , that child will receive something really worthwhile , and they can direct all of their attention to doing their job . lynne neagle am: just before you— . janet , have you got a supplementary on schools now , not on early years settings ? janet finch-saunders am: i lost the signal before , so it 's a little bit confusing at this end , so bear with me . just in terms of the closure of schools , i have been asked by teachers what does new purpose—you may have covered it , but bear in mind [ inaudible . ] —mean in practice . and also , they 're already asking what will next— ? i know you said earlier that next week could look and probably will look significantly different than this week , but what can they expect to be happening next week in terms of this new purpose work ? lynne neagle am: we 've covered that , janet . kirsty williams am: first of all , janet , i just want to say thank you very much for your kind comments . that 's really , really kind of you . we will be sending a letter today to clarify those positions . so , each school will receive letters today about the expectations of schools next week . lynne neagle am: i think you 're having trouble hearing us , are n't you , so i think— ? janet finch-saunders am: no , i heard that loud and clear . lynne neagle am: but i think you missed the earlier comments , when we went into some detail on the new purpose of schools . so , i 'm sorry about that ; we are having some problems with the connection . janet finch-saunders am: yes , we could n't get a signal . lynne neagle am: dawn . dawn bowden am: just in relation to special schools and how they will fit into this new purpose arrangement . kirsty williams am: yes , they 're absolutely central to that planning . we know , again , that some of these children are our most vulnerable and they are some of our most pressurised families . therefore , the same situation that we 've just described for maintained schools also applies to special schools . we 'll be having discussions about what arrangements can be made for those children within their own usual settings . in some cases , that may not be possible . so , again , already local authorities are making different provision . can i give a shout out to the work of rhondda cynon taf in this regard , who are already doing some excellent work with regard to how they can keep in touch with their children who usually would attend their special schools . but , again , steve can give more detail . steve davies: i think special schools have already been hit by this challenge , because a significant proportion of their children , because of their conditions , have not been coming to school , they 've been isolated . but the principle we 've used there is , actually , even if it 's a minority of children who go to those schools and are vulnerable , they deserve and need that support through the school . so , we would expect that to function with the focus on vulnerable children . but similarly , even in special schools , there will be children whose parents will be key workers , so we would expect them to apply that same principle . just quickly in response to the earlier question , while we may bring some groups of children into separate schools , we ’ ll have to continue with the principle of keeping social distance and any provision for a child in a special school in a different setting would be unlikely , given the nature of the special school , so we would look to cater for that within the original school . dawn bowden am: just a couple more questions from me . it ’ s likely , because i know it has already happened , that some schools might actually close before monday . some schools have already partially closed . are you quite happy that headteachers still have the discretion to do that , if they feel that ’ s the right thing to do ? kirsty williams am: in this situation , the discretion of the head still remains . as i said , we will be communicating with all schools today about our expectations , if at all possible , to have schools open for staff to do some of this planning and to be able to respond to these priority needs that we 've just talked about . steve davies: the rationale of headteachers for closing schools up to now has been that they ca n't cope with the safety of the children . i think , moving forward , it 's unlikely that that would be a rationale that headteachers would want to use for not engaging and planning for the future . dawn bowden am: we 're only talking about one more day , now , anyway , are n't we ? so , just in terms of confirmed cases in schools , is your view at this stage that , if there is a confirmed case in a school , once that school has been deep-cleaned , it can reopen again ? kirsty williams am: if we had a confirmed case in a school , then all the usual mechanisms arranged by public health wales would kick in at that point . dawn bowden am: okay . and my final question is in relation to the position of early years and childcare settings . i know that kind of crosses over into somebody else 's portfolio as well , but i think we know that . certainly what i 've seen , and i 'm sure this is true elsewhere as well , we 've seen nurseries closing down because the parents are actually taking the children out of those nurseries . i 've got one in particular , there are kids from the ages of 6 to 12 years in there , and the parents are taking them out . they 've got 30 staff there , catering for 200 children and no children to care for and the organisation , at this stage , is unable to claim on their insurance for the ongoing payment of those staff wages . is there any advice that we can give to people in that situation at this stage ? kirsty williams am: sure . as you say , many of these settings are businesses—people 's businesses and they play a hugely important role and it 's a very worrying time for them . we have said that we will continue to pay for childcare , delivered under the childcare offer even when a child is unable , or a parent is unwilling , to take up that place . so , if that setting is receiving a childcare payment from the welsh government as part of our childcare offer , that will be paid , regardless of whether that child attends or not . and i know that we 're also working with local authorities to ensure a similar position on flying start childcare and early education . so , that payment will be made , regardless of whether a child is attending . it 's also important that childcare settings will be able to apply for the various packages of support that are being made available by my colleague , ken skates . lynne neagle am: hefin , then janet . hefin david am: yes , i 'd just like to turn that around from the parents ' point of view . with schools closing , there are a lot of parents then losing 10 hours of free childcare , but from a settings point of view , they 'll continue to be able to receive , for the time being , the nursery care . kirsty williams am: yes , so the decision that has been taken by my colleague , julie morgan , is that settings should stay open at the moment unless public health changes . that 's being kept under constant review on public health . again , the issue is that we know that that childcare is vital to many families , especially—and we 're particularly concerned about those individuals who are trying to help us overcome and solve these problems . if you have any specific questions about that , we 'll be happy to take them back to julie morgan . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: is this the cylch question ? lynne neagle am: yes , please . janet finch-saunders am: sorry , thank you . yes , just basically , cylch meithrin , there are concerns— [ interruption . ] lynne neagle am: we 've lost janet . we 'll come back to her . kirsty williams am: i think if the issue is about funding for cylch meithrin , these are not normal circumstances . as a welsh government , we will take every step to provide continuity of funding , if at all possible . we will overcome this , and when we overcome this situation we find ourselves in , we will need those childcare settings , we will need those private businesses and we will need our cylch meithrin to be there to respond and to be able to go on doing the job that they usually do for us . and if there is any way that we can , as a government , ensure that that happens by carrying on funding things , even if they are not able to run , all usual— [ inaudible . ] — around service-level agreements are off . i 'm not setting the precedent—let me make that absolutely clear . [ laughter . ] but , you know , we will not undermine businesses and voluntary provision like cylch by withdrawing welsh government funding . i hope i 've been clear . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you for that . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , kirsty . lynne neagle am: if we can move on to talk about exams , obviously you made the announcement yesterday . i completely understand that everything is a very fast-moving situation , but , as you know , there are a lot of questions that people have about young people who 've put a lot of work in . are you able to tell us any more today ? in particular , have you got any idea about timescales now for setting out what the approach will be to handling the lack of summer exams ? kirsty williams am: yes , it is a devastating decision to have to have been taken , but i have done so on the very , very clear and unambiguous advice from qualifications wales . i met with qualifications wales and the wjec yesterday . what was most important to them was that i made an early decision and i did not equivocate on what would happen for the exams . i was able to make an informal decision at that meeting , and then , of course , there is a formal process that we have to go through . that , now , allows qualifications wales and the exam board to operationalise that decision , and they will be communicating with schools as quickly as possible about what schools will need to do to ensure that the systems that they will now put in place can work . we are trying , as far as we can , as i understand it , to be able to mirror as closely as possible the usual results day , for instance . it might not be possible , because , of course , we 're dealing with a situation that requires human beings to be involved in it , and those human beings could find themselves unwell . so , our best attempts will be to maintain the normal rhythm of an exams day in august , but that has to be caveated by the fact that we 're dealing with difficult circumstances . but , the wjec and qualifications wales will be making urgent communications to exam centres to explain what will need to happen next . lynne neagle am: okay . janet , you had a question on this . janet finch-saunders am: yes , i think i raised it yesterday , kirsty , but you were receiving loads of questions . i 'd just ask for some further clarification about coursework , because only 30 per cent of that is done . years 11 and 13 , typically , in my case they 're what 's been raised with me—do you have any advice for them ? kirsty williams am: okay , so , all exams are cancelled , but year 11 and year 13 will be given a grade—i think that 's a distinction that people need to be aware of . that is because those years and those grades are gateway qualifications , and they are points of movement in the education system . so , it 's really important for those students that they are not disadvantaged in any way by not being able to receive a grade that helps them to make a decision as a qualifying step into what they will do next , whether that be university , whether that be a degree apprenticeship or whether that be going into sixth form , into a college , into an apprenticeship or into some work-based learning opportunities . that 's why we have to focus on those children , because for them , it is absolutely critical that we do . we are at an advantage in wales , can i say ? because of the nature of our examination system , those students already have a lot of externally assessed work that we can use as a basis to move forward on . because we 've kept our as-levels , we have got that data . because we have a gcse system— . our year 11s , if they 're doing triple science , they 've already done 40 per cent of their paper , so we 're very fortunate . because of the structures that we have got in our qualification system , there is already lots and lots of externally-verified work that we can use , alongside , potentially , teacher evaluation of students as well . and i think that 's really important . we ’ re starting from a better base than simply having none of that externally-verified data . what will also be important is that these children have confidence in those qualifications , and so we will be looking at a modulated arrangement within wales , and i know that qualifications wales are discussing with their counterparts across the uk a modulated system across the uk . so , actually , we can make sure that our standards are maintained by actually having that modulation across the uk . so , we know that those children never have to worry about the rigour that has gone into determining that grade . so , they can have real confidence . lynne neagle am: okay . helen mary . helen mary jones am: thank you . a supplementary question that might feed into that moderation . you 'll know that the national union of students has suggested that black and minority ethnic children and children from the working class , on the whole , do n't do as well , in terms of their assessment by their own teachers . i do n't know what their evidence is for that . we also know , of course , that boys tend to do better in exams , and girls tend to do better at coursework , for whatever reason that is . so , just to ask you at this early stage to build in those considerations around potential unconscious bias into that overall system that you 're talking about . and , of course , you are right to say that , because we have got some elements of external moderation here , those factors may be less for us in wales than they might for colleagues in england . kirsty williams am: yes , i think we are starting at a different base , thank goodness . so , you 're quite right . as i said , students will have done unit 1 papers last year if they 're gcse students . dare i say it , some might even have done early entry . so , we still have elements of coursework that are externally verified . so , children might well have done lots of oral exams in their english and in their welsh language . so , we have lots of pieces of work that will have been externally verified . i certainly will ensure that these concerns are passed on . i 'm sure that qualifications wales are thinking about it . i have every confidence that they and the wjec will come up with a very comprehensive way of establishing those grades , but i have to say , in some ways , i have to step back now , because you would not expect me , in normal circumstances , to dictate to the wjec how much percentage goes for that , and how much percentage is allocated for that ; that would not be appropriate for a minister . my job is to make the decision on the examinations on the basis of having confidence that what can be put in place is fair and is equitable , and i have confidence that that will be the case . helen mary jones am: thank you . lynne neagle am: suzy . suzy davies am: a few things from me . one is , obviously , pupils are being asked to work at home as well now , some of whom will be doing gcse and a-level courses . so , there 's just a question , generally , from me— because we 're encouraging these kids to carry on working—how that will be accommodated by qualifications wales , i guess , in this modulation process . it may be that your at-home work will be of a higher standard or a lower standard than a teacher would be expecting . secondly , you mentioned the as-levels , of course , as being of value at the moment , but we 've got people in year 12 who now wo n't be doing their ass . is there any steer at this stage about what they will be expected to do ? will they be doing two sets of exams next year , for example ? or is as just off the table ? in which case , how are the a2s going to be calculated in due course ? and then , finally from me , we do have some vocational qualifications that are up for examination as well—your btecs , and i think it 's the association of accounting technicians , which is a lot of computer-based learning—which is due to be examined within three weeks . those aren ’ t a-levels or gcses . i appreciate that you may not have the answer just at the moment , but are they off as well is the question , i guess ? kirsty williams am: with regard to as-levels—no final decision has been made for exactly how those students will be treated . there are a range of options that could be used , but again , we will want to be thinking about student well-being , fairness and equity in that regard , and i will update members as soon as i have received definitive advice from qualifications wales around that , and that has n't happened yet . with regard to other types of qualifications , as you will be aware , the vast majority of btecs is a modular , continually-assessed piece of work , and we would have every expectation that btecs will be able to be awarded , but clearly , those conversations are with awarding bodies—they tend to be uk awarding bodies , rather then necessarily our wjec exam board—and those conversations are ongoing . but i have every expectation that those qualifications will be awarded and , of course , because of their nature there 's even more evidence of continued assessment . huw , i do n't know if there 's anything else that you would like to add about those types of qualifications . huw morris: no . i think you 've covered most of it . i do n't have a definitive answer for the att qualification , but we can look into that and come back to you . suzy davies am: well , i 've just had a constituent ask , so that would be very helpful . and homeworking— kirsty williams am: homeworking , right . suzy davies am: —is that going to count towards the assessments , overall assessments ? kirsty williams am: well , potentially , as i said . i do n't know the exact elements . what will be absolutely necessary is that qualifications wales and the wjec will be able to give absolute clarity and simplicity around how those grades will be arrived at , because parents , teachers and students will want to know that , and my expectation is on them to be able to clearly communicate what elements will and will not be taken into consideration when awarding those grades . suzy davies am: that 's great . at least we covered it . thank you , minister—thank you , kirsty . lynne neagle am: and , just before we move on , have the universities across the uk indicated that they are content with this approach going forward—content to accept students on this basis ? kirsty williams am: certainly . there have been discussions with universities and ucas , of course , that this also has a bearing on . one of the— . and the views of university and how university terms might be impacted is one of the ways and one of the reasons that we 've factored in to making these decisions . those discussions with universities are ongoing , are n't they , huw ? huw morris: yes . so , we 've been in regular conversation with universities wales and through them with universities uk and we 've received every indication that the approach that 's been adopted here has been welcomed by the institutions . those conversations will continue as we work through the practicalities of how the gradings that are awarded are going to feed through into university admissions decisions and enrolment . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . well , we 've got some questions now from suzy on the potential closures of colleges and universities . suzy davies am: okay . well , it 's a very general question , really . i appreciate you 've already indicated there are lots of ongoing conversations , but my understanding is whether colleges or universities close is pretty much still at their own discretion . we 're going to be asking some questions on emergency legislation shortly , which may impact on the answer you can give today , but what sort of conversations are you having with fe and he at the moment about how they decide ? kirsty williams am: well , you 're absolutely right . as we often say in this committee , universities are autonomous institutions—a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question . universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them . colleges are in a similar position , looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods , and the bill , potentially , does give us more powers of intervention in both the fe and the he sector . suzy davies am: i might ask you about that in a minute , because i do n't even know what the bill says yet . kirsty williams am: huw , i do n't know if there 's anything you want to add . huw morris: no—just to confirm what 's been said and also to add in that independent training providers , similarly autonomous , like colleges and universities , have been moving in the same direction . we 've been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that 's been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies . we 've got consistency in the approach and a common desire , and investment in moving towards online support for students . suzy davies am: and there 's still this safety net idea . certainly , colleges have indicated , as with schools , that , for the most vulnerable learners , they 'll have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis . huw morris: that 's my understanding , yes , and , again , we 've been in regular conversation with them about that . my understanding is that they 're going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions . suzy davies am: that 's fair enough . and , presumably , education maintenance allowance will still be paid . kirsty williams am: yes . arrangements have been made to ensure that ema continues to be paid to all students who are entitled . suzy davies am: that 's right . you indicated that any welsh government support 's going to stay , whatever the circumstances are—in your portfolio . kirsty williams am: yes . i 'm doing my best , but it 's an absolute yes on the ema . there will be no disruption to ema . suzy davies am: okay . you might get some further questions on he and fe . lynne neagle am: yes . we 've got some further questions , indeed , from helen mary and then hefin . helen mary jones am: now or in a bit ? lynne neagle am: yes . helen mary jones am: just further to ema , of course , at the moment , that has an attendance qualification , does n't it ? and you do n't get your ema if you do n't turn up . should we take from your last answer that that attendance qualification does n't apply anymore ? kirsty williams am: yes . they ca n't turn up if the institution is not open , and that 's not their fault . helen mary jones am: no , but that is something that 's been a worry , so that 's really encouraging to hear . thinking about students in higher education , can you give an assurance that student maintenance payments will continue as normal ? is that the intention ? kirsty williams am: yes . helen mary jones am: that 's really good to hear . and have you given any special ministerial instruction to student finance wales on processing applications for support or changes of circumstances , or is that something that 's kind of ongoing at the moment ? kirsty williams am: those conversations are ongoing with the student loans company . as i said , we anticipate no disruption to— . we do n't anticipate any change in the approach to students as a result of this . individual student circumstances could well change and our expectation would be that the student loans company would respond to that . all i would say is , just to remind people : people who work for the student loans company are no more able to resist this disease than anybody else . there will undoubtedly in some cases be really practical challenges to service delivery , simply because organisations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they are reacting to social-distancing messages from the government . so , i think we just need to bear that in mind : that these organisations are doing their best , but , if they are badly affected by staff numbers being off because of the virus , then i hope people will give them due consideration . helen mary jones am: yes , that makes sense , of course , because we 've been told that universities wo n't be able to entirely close , because there will be students who ca n't go home— kirsty williams am: it is their home . helen mary jones am: —overseas students , for example . what discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students ' basic needs are met , that there 's still food , shelter , whatever they need ? kirsty williams am: well , obviously , universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances , and every conversation that huw 's been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that . huw morris: we instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease , not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in china and other parts of south-east asia . and so , as the disease has progressed , we 've seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the uk , and i am assured that the universities here in wales have got processes in place that support those learners . helen mary jones am: that 's really helpful . and on this specifically—last question from me— have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees , should the academic year not be completed ? huw morris: so , as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online , clearly , there are lessons that will need to be taken on board . there are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs . the intention in all of these institutions is that they will complete their course of study . there are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed . failing those institutional mechanisms , there is a uk-wide system through the office of the independent adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have . so , we 're confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs . lynne neagle am: okay . suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: no , mr morris has answered my question . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've got a couple more questions now on vulnerable learners . i 've got helen mary , then hefin . helen mary jones am: i think , chair , the minister has already answered what the— . but thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and well-being of staff and learners across a range of educational settings , or , indeed , young people who ca n't access educational settings , what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and well-being might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone ? kirsty williams am: yes , that is correct . so , our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure—which i think , if we 're honest , we have to acknowledge is what we 're looking at—we would expect school staff—well-being staff , for instance in school—to be doing check-ins—phone check-ins , potentially , or facetime check-ins , with students , just to keep in touch with them as we go forward . we 'll be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available—so , for instance , meic website—so , looking to use a variety of platforms . we do , of course , have the formal nhs counselling services . i 'm concerned , of course , that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school . we know that , and we 're just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists—online counselling tools that children already use because they do n't want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor . they 're already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue , as far as possible , those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered , and their worries . i think we have to remember that this is a really worrying time for children and young people . one of the reasons , again , that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible—and teachers have been working so hard to do that—is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we 've needed and wanted to maintain . children will have worries about their own health ; they 'll have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents ; they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves . so , we need to understand , and i think we will also have to recognise , that this support will have to be ongoing once we 're back to normal , and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience . they are incredibly resilient , and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages . they are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole 'washing your hands ' and things like that than even adults have been . so , they are incredibly resilient , but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them . helen mary jones am: can i just— ? just a supplementary to that—you 've mentioned already , kirsty , the importance of youth services , and , particularly thinking voluntarily youth services , you 've given the commitment , when were talking about mudiad ysgolion meithrin earlier , that services that are part-funded by grants through the welsh government , for example , thinking of the national youth voluntary service—will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well ? obviously , local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open , but , in terms of the direct support from welsh government , can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time ? kirsty williams am: no formal decision has been made , but if people are in receipt of a government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public— helen mary jones am: because it 's not safe . kirsty williams am: —because it 's not safe to do so , i do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying , 'we 'll have our money back , thank you very much . ' lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . helen mary jones am: that will make a lot of people happy , thank you . [ laughter . ] kirsty williams am: as i said , we are facing unprecedented circumstances . the normal rules of engagement have to change and , those organisations , we 'll need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal , and we would n't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that . our call to the youth service is a call to arms , though . when we 're trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for front-line staff children , they have a valuable role to play and i know that local government and the council for wales of voluntary youth services are already in discussion about how youth services— . many of our youth services work on an outreach basis . those traditional youth clubs , because of austerity , are not necessarily there anymore , so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work , and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier . helen mary jones am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin , briefly , and then we 're going to take one final question from suzy on emergency legislation . hefin david am: all right . i 'll declare an interest as a parent of a child with additional learning needs , although the question i 'm about to ask does n't reflect her interests . additional learning needs pupils who are waiting outcomes of referrals—if they 're currently waiting an outcome of a referral , will that process will be suspended or will it continue as normal ? and , if it is suspended , will it pick up where it left off from this point ? kirsty williams am: i think we have to recognise that the ability to deliver business as usual has been massively compromised . i 'm sure people will try and continue to do their normal activities and their normal jobs , but that might not be possible . i will have to check that , hefin , to be honest . i do n't want to give you any false assurance if , actually , the intelligence on the ground is that that simply will not be able to happen . but we don't— hefin david am: can we have a clear line on that ? kirsty williams am: we do n't want to jeopardise anybody , but as i said , some of the normal services are simply not available as everybody turns their attention to trying to respond to the pandemic . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . final question—because i know that the minister 's got a lot of things that she needs to get on with—from suzy on emergency legislation . suzy davies am: i 'm not going to ask you if you 'll use any powers you get under the emergency legislation , but are you able to give us some indication of what they might be ? kirsty williams am: sure . for instance , the bill will provide welsh ministers with powers to temporarily close schools or other educational institutions , childcare premises ; powers to give temporary continuity direction—so , actually , the other way around , force things to be open—and to be able to direct resources . so , that includes , as i said , i could direct something to stay open if that institution was trying to close down . the powers also give flexibility to maybe be able to direct staff to other institutions that they would not normally work in , if that was part of our resilience needs . we 'd also be looking at , for instance , relaxing requirements around ratios in childcare settings , or we might be wanting to do things around food . so , obviously , we have rules around the level of nutrition that schools should be giving their children . if there is a continuing role for schools in providing food , we might have to be a bit more flexible about what that might look like . so , those kinds of flexibilities—to be able to suspend things , direct things—that we would not normally have in normal circumstances . suzy davies am: okay . and just to finish this one off—you may not be able to answer this one , in all fairness—in those situations where it 's the government who says 'no ' to various things , does that then help people in the situation of dawn 's nursery , and insurance claims suddenly become more likely ? kirsty williams am: i 'm not an expert on insurance , and i do n't know if anybody here can help me . but what my understanding is , is that even where government has given a direction that does not necessarily mean that you will be covered by your insurance . what we 're finding in the private sector is that insurance companies are not paying out , because even when a government has directed it , they do not regard this as a disruption to business . so , the insurance industry is not my area of expertise . suzy davies am: no , no , i accept that . kirsty williams am: it 's not my area of expertise , but from what i understand from discussions around the cabinet table , this is particularly problematic . let me give you an example about how we 've been trying to overcome some of this—it feels like an awfully long time ago now— you 'll be aware that we gave directions earlier around cancellation of school trips abroad . trying to make sure that that direction came from the foreign and commonwealth office , rather than the department for education was a real battle , because again there were fears that , unless that advice came from the foreign and commonwealth office , insurance would not kick in , and that was a two-day discussion . suzy davies am: okay . this is helpful to know , actually . kirsty williams am: so , these are the kinds of things that we 're grappling with . but , as i said , thinking about it , that was only last week , but it feels like an aeon ago . suzy davies am: i 'm not holding you to that , but it helps us manage the questions we get asked . kirsty williams am: yes , but as i said , insurance is not my area of expertise . suzy davies am: no , but thank you for answering . lynne neagle am: okay . well , we 've come to the end of our time . can i thank you for attending this morning , and your officials ? we do recognise what an incredibly challenging time this is , and we 'd like to place on record our thanks to all of you for the work that you 're doing to try and see us through this crisis . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . thank you again , all of you , for your attendance . item 3 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

according to kirsty , they are actually in an unusual situation but they were trying to create a system where it would be seamless and it would not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays . one particular group of children and young people that they hoped would be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category was young carers . the basic principle they used was that even if it was a minority of children who went to those schools and were vulnerable , they deserved and needed the support through the school .

what were the measures concerning the normal holiday provision for children ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . i 've received apologies for absence from siân gwenllian , and i 'm very pleased to welcome helen mary jones , who is substituting for siân today . can i ask whether members want to declare any interests , please ? can i just , then , place on record that i have got a son who was about to do a-levels , so is affected by the exam decision ? we 'll move on , then , to our substantive item today , which is an evidence session with the welsh government around the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on education in wales . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams , minister for education ; steve davies , who is director of the education directorate ; huw morris , who is the group director , skills , higher education and lifelong learning ; and rob orford , who is the chief scientific adviser for health . thank you all for coming . we know that this is a really difficult and pressurised time for everyone , and we appreciate your attendance . minister , i understand you wanted to make an opening statement today . kirsty williams am: yes , if that 's okay , chair . as you know , it 's not usually my practice to do that , but i think it is important today . covid-19 coronavirus is one of the most significant issues that the welsh government and the people of wales have dealt with in recent times . dealing with the impacts of this pandemic is extremely challenging . things are changing on an hourly basis , and we have to make decisions quickly to ensure public safety . but i would like to assure you that our aim , and my aim , and my main concern as the education minister is to protect all staff and pupils in our schools and other educational settings . but we also have a duty to ensure continuing and continuity of education . public health is clearly the priority here , but that does not change our belief that no child should miss out on any education , unless absolutely necessary . so , the decision to close all schools from tomorrow for statutory education provision was not taken lightly , but i believe it was necessary , given the advice and recommendations that we had received from a public health perspective and the situation that was developing on the ground . from next week , schools will have a new purpose . they will help support those most in need , including people involved in the immediate response to the coronavirus outbreak , and i 'm working with my colleagues in the cabinet , with government officials and our partners in local government to develop and finalise these plans . the key areas that we 're looking at are supporting and safeguarding the vulnerable and ensuring continuity of learning . this includes all of those who benefit from free school meals and children with additional learning needs . i can confirm that all maintained schools in wales already have access to a range of digital tools that can support distance learning through the world-class hwb digital learning platform , including virtual classrooms and video-conferencing facilities . a guide on what tools are available and how schools can use them has been developed and is being promoted widely . yesterday , i announced that , whilst there are no easy choices , we have agreed that the best way forward is not to proceed with the summer exam series . learners due to sit these exams will be awarded a fair grade to recognise their work , drawing on a range of information that is available , and i will announce further details shortly , but i felt it necessary to give early certainty to students and to staff . i would like to put on record my thanks to everyone working in education settings for the hard work that they have put in over the last few months in dealing with the virus and ensuring that pupils have been able to continue to learn . we need to continue to do this work together , as we face the continuing challenges posed by the coronavirus . diolch yn fawr . lynne neagle am: thank you very much , minister , for that statement . we 'll go to questions from members now , and i 've got some questions from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . can i thank you , kirsty , for your statement and the really difficult decisions that you 've been having to make ? you 've already indicated in your statement this morning that these decisions are not taken lightly , and we understand that that is the case across government . so , thank you for what you 've been doing . you 've outlined a little bit further there in your statement to us this morning about the new purpose . i take from what you 're saying that you have n't really developed that yet in terms of exactly what that is going to look like . you 've talked about the children of key workers , free school meals , additional learning needs . is there anything else you can tell us about that at the moment and how you might staff the schools in those particular areas ? kirsty williams am: thank you , dawn . so , you're absolutely right , our priority now is to operationalise , with colleagues in local government and schools , a practical response . and i have to say , we 're working to timescales that i would have hoped to have avoided , but given the fact that we 're having to make these decisions quite quickly , i hope that you will understand that perhaps where we start on monday might change when we have more time and more opportunities to develop programmes going forward . steve will be able to give you more details of the practical work that has already been going on , but our expectation will be that schools will be playing an important part in providing safe and secure places for children of those on the front-line response to dealing with the coronavirus to attend , and work is already under way with local authorities and individual schools on what that will look like for the emergency situation on monday . our other priority is indeed free school meals , and , again , where we eventually end up might be a different place to where we are on monday . again , we 're responding to the emergency situation that there will be families that were expecting a free school meal on monday , and , again , individual schools and local authorities are developing those plans at pace to be able to provide an emergency response as we work out a longer term plan to deal with the situation . the same thing also goes for additional learning needs , and attending to the needs of that particular group of learners . so , those conversations began a few days ago . i had the opportunity to meet with the first minister and andrew morgan , the leader of the welsh local government association , yesterday to talk about what local government could do , and what they were already doing . those plans in some places are already quite developed , and are now working at pace , but i hope you will understand that where we start on monday is the emergency response , and that work will develop as we go forward . but , steve , perhaps you could— ? because steve was the one making all those phone calls and doing the practical operational stuff , rather than me . steve . steve davies: in short , the new purpose is to meet the needs of particular groups of children and young people . in some cases , some of the response to supporting free school meals , in the short term in particular , we may use the schools as part of that , and i 'm certain that will happen in some cases . the second area is looking at how we support the children of key workers . now , there is still work to be done on identifying exactly the categories of key workers , but i think it 's really encouraging that in my discussions yesterday—i spoke with all 22 directors of education , and the examples we 're picking up in their work with schools is they 're already ahead of the curve in working with schools . so , schools have identified the number of children with health workers . it will grow , and we will need to look at that range . then , the third area is vulnerable children . they 're vulnerable sometimes in terms of education other than at school , vulnerable in terms of mental health , and for those children , as well as having an experience that we want to be planned , some have compared it to a snow day , particularly on monday , when you 're putting something together in the short term , but it will not be a formal curriculum that those children would normally go through . so , the range of activities—some will be focused on educational activities , some will be cultural , some will be sporting , and that plan will be developed on the basis of the age range of children , which in some cases may go from extremely young children up to those at the age of 16 in our all-through schools , but there will be a planned set of activities to cater for those children . what we are doing currently—i have staff back at cathays park who are in touch and working with directors of education to ensure that schools over the next two days will have been able to identify , at least at the earlier stage , in terms of health workers , the type and numbers of people . there are already schools who have informed us , and local authorities , of their plans for these activities to be starting next week , which is quite amazing , actually , given where we are . but we are expecting , and we 're writing to schools today , that during the course of next week , headteachers to be in schools , and with their staff , taking into consideration the health guidance as to which staff should or should not be in , and in that period from next monday through the two-week period , to easter , we expect staff to be both planning for delivery post easter , but also , as i said , building on and reflecting the good practice that 's already in place for schools that have engaged in activities , and i 'm sure a number of them will be inviting and enabling those children to come in on monday . so , monday will be a challenge for some , and not all will be delivering it , but we will be working so that we can get as much as possible delivered for those groups over the next two weeks , and particularly to have resilient programmes post easter for the groups of children in those three categories that i said . dawn bowden am: those that have been identified . can i just clarify one thing ? one of the identified vulnerable groups would clearly be children on the at-risk register . they would be included . steve davies: yes , definitely . vulnerable children , yes . kirsty williams am: in our discussions , we have asked local government to be working with the social services departments and individual schools to identify those children who may be in that situation . we know that , for some children , being at school is part of their safeguarding arrangements , and obviously we will need to be able to respond to those needs . steve davies: i wrote specifically yesterday to all directors of education to be assured that , for those children , the register is up to date and the plans are in place . i 'm working with albert heaney my colleague , the director for social services , who is meeting with the 22 directors of social services today to look to ensure that we are joined up in ensuring none of these children fall through the gap . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got a supplementary from hefin , and then suzy . hefin david am: a very quick and simple question : how are you going to communicate this to parents ? there 's a bigger picture and it 's changing all the time , as you said . the welsh government have a route to communication . the most helpful thing i 've seen is that public health wales have a single website with information regarding the wider issue of the virus . how will this then be cascaded to schools , because there 's obviously a time lag ? so , have you considered how this is going to be communicated directly to parents ? kirsty williams am: we 're using all of our platforms of communication to get these messages across . so , we 're using the more informal methods of communication , but are relying on a systematic approach via individual directors and through to individual schools . welsh government already has a dedicated website page with all of the relevant information about coronavirus . we 're looking , as quickly as we can , to have a frequently asked education questions page that we can update . understandably , people are communicating to us on twitter asking questions . it is impossible for the communications team here to be able to respond individually to every single person that is sending facebook messages and sending tweets , so the best way we can do that is to collate the types of questions people are asking and then to be able to have a frequently updated question and answer page to try to respond to that . with regard to parents , for instance , we 're aware of schools that have already sent a questionnaire out last night to parents saying , 'do you consider yourself to be a key worker ? do you work in the nhs ? please let us know by tomorrow so we can put arrangements in place for your children . ' so , schools are already taking the initiative and having those conversations with parents about what their needs will be . and , as i said , hefin , will it be perfect on monday ? no . it wo n't be perfect by monday , because we 're working to such constrained timescales . but we will continue to build that resilience . we also have to think about systems that look at what might the epidemic do and have systems of resilience that may work next week , given the situation we find ourselves in with public health advice at the moment . but that public health advice may change . therefore , have we got a system that will be resilient in those circumstances ? these are some of the challenges that we 're having to grapple with . so , as i said , what happens on monday might look very different to where we are if schools are still off in may . so , i hope people will understand that we are working in those kinds of scenarios . lynne neagle am: suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: yes , just on this question of vulnerable children , i 'm just wondering how much discretion teachers are going to have in including individual children who may not be obviously under social services ' care or on a risk register or whatever . teachers know their pupils and , very sensitively , they could include people who may not be obviously in need . kirsty williams am: we would absolutely respect the professional judgment of individual headteachers to be able to have those conversations with their directors . as you said , quite rightly , they are the individuals who know their children best and know which children , perhaps , will need this extra support . we will put no constraints on those teachers trying to do that work . suzy davies am: okay . the second part of my question is : there were going to be easter holidays anyway , were n't there ? what was going to happen about free-school-meal children during that period ? has that gone out of the window now , the normal holiday provision for children ? because that 's not there normally , is it , except in separate— kirsty williams am: we do find ourselves in a strange situation . my understanding is what we 're trying to work to is that we would have ongoing provision and not to make some strange , 'you get this for two weeks , then you do n't get it for two weeks , and then you 're back in . ' my understanding is , in england , that is what they 're going to do . we 're trying to create a system where it will be seamless and it will not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays . it wo n't matter to those nurses and doctors who will need to be in work during those weeks . we 're trying to create a system that will run uniformly . that 's our policy goal at the moment . lynne neagle am: helen mary . helen mary jones am: just briefly , building on suzy 's question , one particular group of children and young people that i hope will be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category is young carers . for some of them , they may not be able to come into school because the people they 're caring for may have to be excluded because of their conditions . but i think that , for other young carers , coming to school is an absolute lifeline , because they 're working at home . so , i do n't know if it 's appropriate for you to specifically mention those in discussions with local authorities , but it 's a group of young people who , again , may not be vulnerable in other ways , but because of their caring responsibilities they may need school . and the other group—and this , i suppose , goes back to suzy 's point about teachers knowing their young people—is the children who may be living in situations where they 're at risk of witnessing domestic abuse . again , these may very well not be children who are in any formal contact with social services , but being at home may be really not a good place for them to be . so , again , i 'd put in an appeal for that to be something that perhaps can be raised with schools . if a teacher is worried about what a child 's circumstances are like at home , whether they can be , as you said , kirsty , included as one of the— . they may not be formally identified , but if the teacher knows that they 're at risk , or there is an instinct that they 're at risk , they might be able to be included in children who are allowed to take advantage of this special provision you 're making at this difficult time . kirsty williams am: we will certainly raise those issues . we have to do that in the context of what is deliverable , and we also have to do that in the context of the public health advice that we are receiving as well . one of the reasons why schools are closing is to help manage this disease . we know that the ability for school closures to make a contribution to that diminishes if we have significant children in school still . so , we will take these issues into consideration , but remembering this is part of an epidemic mitigation plan . rob is the expert on that , not me . rob orford: yes , absolutely . this is a rapidly-evolving problem and the scale is something that we have n't seen in 100 years , and so we 're having to evolve and iterate things as we go . next week , i think , will look different to this week . so , it kind of is what it is . we 've all got a role to play , and schools certainly have a significant role to play in breaking those chains of transmission . areas that we 're worried about are displacement activities . if we close the schools , then people collect at others ' houses . we need to send a really clear message that you 're all part of the solution , and the things that you do by distancing yourselves from your friends and your family are really important for us to get on top of this outbreak . the more that we can do that , the easier it will be when we go forward . helen mary jones am: i 'm sure that that 's true , but i 'm sure that we would n't be wanting a child who 's in a very pressured environment with perhaps a very difficult relationship between mum and dad— . it may be very important for those children to be out of that for some of the time . hopefully , we 're talking about relatively small numbers , but i just— . kirsty williams am: we will look at vulnerability in a holistic way . lynne neagle am: janet , you had a supplementary . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair , and good morning , minister , and your team . can i just put on record my thanks for all that you 're having to endure at this moment ? i think it 's fair to say you have the support of assembly members and , indeed , our communities . now , the question i have : if cylch meithrin have to close , where will they get money from to pay their staff ? because , currently , thankfully , there 's support for businesses . lynne neagle am: janet , we 're not doing cylch meithrin at the moment ; we are sticking with schools , as we discussed in advance . dawn . dawn bowden am: can i just get some clarity , steve , around what you were saying in terms of next week ? because i think the practical applications of this—and i understand that you do n't know all of this yet , i understand that—the practical applications are what is coming to us , obviously , with constituents saying , 'well , what 's going to happen to that ? ' just so that i can be clear , are you saying that , at this stage , every headteacher will be in school on monday , as will all their staff ? steve davies: within the scope of the guidance in terms of their health , the expectation—and this will be conveyed in letters by the minister today , to be made clear—is that they are closing for the majority of pupils , but our expectation within the guidance is that the headteacher with their staff will be coming in ; for some to start the delivery of what we just described , but that will probably be small numbers , but more importantly to plan to ensure that , after the formal easter period , which is school holidays , the schools are geared to cater for the range of pupils that we 've been discussing . dawn bowden am: so , would you anticipate—again , i know this is all a bit 'if and when ' , and it depends on the changing nature of the advice , but from what you 're saying , i think we can probably anticipate that , as we go forward , there will probably be fewer schools opening and operable—that we may be moving those children on to fewer sites . would that possibly— ? kirsty williams am: that is a potential . so , we already know that one of our local authorities already has identified a strategic pattern of schools that they will want to operate in this way . that local authority has already chosen those locations , and is already having communications with how they will then staff those centres . so , that could well— . that , i expect , in the longer term , will be the nature of the provision that we will get to . but that 's not for us to dictate . the local authorities are best placed to understand what is the best , pragmatic use of the resources that they have available ; and of course those resources , primarily , are human beings . so , we 've talked a lot this morning in the context of teaching staff , teaching assistants , but we 're also having discussions with local authorities , and i met with the council for wales of voluntary youth services this week , to look at deploying youth workers , to look to be deploying other staff that the local authority may employ , like sports development officers . there may be cultural officers that can have something to offer . welsh government will be talking with a range of our partners who perhaps their normal activities ca n't continue at the moment , but actually have personnel who want to add to this effort , who want to be able to be part of a provision going forward in the longer term , to be able to provide a great place for children to be . we want to give parents , who we are asking— . let 's think about it , in these worst of times , we 're asking parents to leave their children so that they can go and do essential work , and some of that essential work is putting themselves at risk , potentially . and we want to give those parents confidence that , when they leave their child with us , that child will receive something really worthwhile , and they can direct all of their attention to doing their job . lynne neagle am: just before you— . janet , have you got a supplementary on schools now , not on early years settings ? janet finch-saunders am: i lost the signal before , so it 's a little bit confusing at this end , so bear with me . just in terms of the closure of schools , i have been asked by teachers what does new purpose—you may have covered it , but bear in mind [ inaudible . ] —mean in practice . and also , they 're already asking what will next— ? i know you said earlier that next week could look and probably will look significantly different than this week , but what can they expect to be happening next week in terms of this new purpose work ? lynne neagle am: we 've covered that , janet . kirsty williams am: first of all , janet , i just want to say thank you very much for your kind comments . that 's really , really kind of you . we will be sending a letter today to clarify those positions . so , each school will receive letters today about the expectations of schools next week . lynne neagle am: i think you 're having trouble hearing us , are n't you , so i think— ? janet finch-saunders am: no , i heard that loud and clear . lynne neagle am: but i think you missed the earlier comments , when we went into some detail on the new purpose of schools . so , i 'm sorry about that ; we are having some problems with the connection . janet finch-saunders am: yes , we could n't get a signal . lynne neagle am: dawn . dawn bowden am: just in relation to special schools and how they will fit into this new purpose arrangement . kirsty williams am: yes , they 're absolutely central to that planning . we know , again , that some of these children are our most vulnerable and they are some of our most pressurised families . therefore , the same situation that we 've just described for maintained schools also applies to special schools . we 'll be having discussions about what arrangements can be made for those children within their own usual settings . in some cases , that may not be possible . so , again , already local authorities are making different provision . can i give a shout out to the work of rhondda cynon taf in this regard , who are already doing some excellent work with regard to how they can keep in touch with their children who usually would attend their special schools . but , again , steve can give more detail . steve davies: i think special schools have already been hit by this challenge , because a significant proportion of their children , because of their conditions , have not been coming to school , they 've been isolated . but the principle we 've used there is , actually , even if it 's a minority of children who go to those schools and are vulnerable , they deserve and need that support through the school . so , we would expect that to function with the focus on vulnerable children . but similarly , even in special schools , there will be children whose parents will be key workers , so we would expect them to apply that same principle . just quickly in response to the earlier question , while we may bring some groups of children into separate schools , we ’ ll have to continue with the principle of keeping social distance and any provision for a child in a special school in a different setting would be unlikely , given the nature of the special school , so we would look to cater for that within the original school . dawn bowden am: just a couple more questions from me . it ’ s likely , because i know it has already happened , that some schools might actually close before monday . some schools have already partially closed . are you quite happy that headteachers still have the discretion to do that , if they feel that ’ s the right thing to do ? kirsty williams am: in this situation , the discretion of the head still remains . as i said , we will be communicating with all schools today about our expectations , if at all possible , to have schools open for staff to do some of this planning and to be able to respond to these priority needs that we 've just talked about . steve davies: the rationale of headteachers for closing schools up to now has been that they ca n't cope with the safety of the children . i think , moving forward , it 's unlikely that that would be a rationale that headteachers would want to use for not engaging and planning for the future . dawn bowden am: we 're only talking about one more day , now , anyway , are n't we ? so , just in terms of confirmed cases in schools , is your view at this stage that , if there is a confirmed case in a school , once that school has been deep-cleaned , it can reopen again ? kirsty williams am: if we had a confirmed case in a school , then all the usual mechanisms arranged by public health wales would kick in at that point . dawn bowden am: okay . and my final question is in relation to the position of early years and childcare settings . i know that kind of crosses over into somebody else 's portfolio as well , but i think we know that . certainly what i 've seen , and i 'm sure this is true elsewhere as well , we 've seen nurseries closing down because the parents are actually taking the children out of those nurseries . i 've got one in particular , there are kids from the ages of 6 to 12 years in there , and the parents are taking them out . they 've got 30 staff there , catering for 200 children and no children to care for and the organisation , at this stage , is unable to claim on their insurance for the ongoing payment of those staff wages . is there any advice that we can give to people in that situation at this stage ? kirsty williams am: sure . as you say , many of these settings are businesses—people 's businesses and they play a hugely important role and it 's a very worrying time for them . we have said that we will continue to pay for childcare , delivered under the childcare offer even when a child is unable , or a parent is unwilling , to take up that place . so , if that setting is receiving a childcare payment from the welsh government as part of our childcare offer , that will be paid , regardless of whether that child attends or not . and i know that we 're also working with local authorities to ensure a similar position on flying start childcare and early education . so , that payment will be made , regardless of whether a child is attending . it 's also important that childcare settings will be able to apply for the various packages of support that are being made available by my colleague , ken skates . lynne neagle am: hefin , then janet . hefin david am: yes , i 'd just like to turn that around from the parents ' point of view . with schools closing , there are a lot of parents then losing 10 hours of free childcare , but from a settings point of view , they 'll continue to be able to receive , for the time being , the nursery care . kirsty williams am: yes , so the decision that has been taken by my colleague , julie morgan , is that settings should stay open at the moment unless public health changes . that 's being kept under constant review on public health . again , the issue is that we know that that childcare is vital to many families , especially—and we 're particularly concerned about those individuals who are trying to help us overcome and solve these problems . if you have any specific questions about that , we 'll be happy to take them back to julie morgan . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: is this the cylch question ? lynne neagle am: yes , please . janet finch-saunders am: sorry , thank you . yes , just basically , cylch meithrin , there are concerns— [ interruption . ] lynne neagle am: we 've lost janet . we 'll come back to her . kirsty williams am: i think if the issue is about funding for cylch meithrin , these are not normal circumstances . as a welsh government , we will take every step to provide continuity of funding , if at all possible . we will overcome this , and when we overcome this situation we find ourselves in , we will need those childcare settings , we will need those private businesses and we will need our cylch meithrin to be there to respond and to be able to go on doing the job that they usually do for us . and if there is any way that we can , as a government , ensure that that happens by carrying on funding things , even if they are not able to run , all usual— [ inaudible . ] — around service-level agreements are off . i 'm not setting the precedent—let me make that absolutely clear . [ laughter . ] but , you know , we will not undermine businesses and voluntary provision like cylch by withdrawing welsh government funding . i hope i 've been clear . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you for that . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , kirsty . lynne neagle am: if we can move on to talk about exams , obviously you made the announcement yesterday . i completely understand that everything is a very fast-moving situation , but , as you know , there are a lot of questions that people have about young people who 've put a lot of work in . are you able to tell us any more today ? in particular , have you got any idea about timescales now for setting out what the approach will be to handling the lack of summer exams ? kirsty williams am: yes , it is a devastating decision to have to have been taken , but i have done so on the very , very clear and unambiguous advice from qualifications wales . i met with qualifications wales and the wjec yesterday . what was most important to them was that i made an early decision and i did not equivocate on what would happen for the exams . i was able to make an informal decision at that meeting , and then , of course , there is a formal process that we have to go through . that , now , allows qualifications wales and the exam board to operationalise that decision , and they will be communicating with schools as quickly as possible about what schools will need to do to ensure that the systems that they will now put in place can work . we are trying , as far as we can , as i understand it , to be able to mirror as closely as possible the usual results day , for instance . it might not be possible , because , of course , we 're dealing with a situation that requires human beings to be involved in it , and those human beings could find themselves unwell . so , our best attempts will be to maintain the normal rhythm of an exams day in august , but that has to be caveated by the fact that we 're dealing with difficult circumstances . but , the wjec and qualifications wales will be making urgent communications to exam centres to explain what will need to happen next . lynne neagle am: okay . janet , you had a question on this . janet finch-saunders am: yes , i think i raised it yesterday , kirsty , but you were receiving loads of questions . i 'd just ask for some further clarification about coursework , because only 30 per cent of that is done . years 11 and 13 , typically , in my case they 're what 's been raised with me—do you have any advice for them ? kirsty williams am: okay , so , all exams are cancelled , but year 11 and year 13 will be given a grade—i think that 's a distinction that people need to be aware of . that is because those years and those grades are gateway qualifications , and they are points of movement in the education system . so , it 's really important for those students that they are not disadvantaged in any way by not being able to receive a grade that helps them to make a decision as a qualifying step into what they will do next , whether that be university , whether that be a degree apprenticeship or whether that be going into sixth form , into a college , into an apprenticeship or into some work-based learning opportunities . that 's why we have to focus on those children , because for them , it is absolutely critical that we do . we are at an advantage in wales , can i say ? because of the nature of our examination system , those students already have a lot of externally assessed work that we can use as a basis to move forward on . because we 've kept our as-levels , we have got that data . because we have a gcse system— . our year 11s , if they 're doing triple science , they 've already done 40 per cent of their paper , so we 're very fortunate . because of the structures that we have got in our qualification system , there is already lots and lots of externally-verified work that we can use , alongside , potentially , teacher evaluation of students as well . and i think that 's really important . we ’ re starting from a better base than simply having none of that externally-verified data . what will also be important is that these children have confidence in those qualifications , and so we will be looking at a modulated arrangement within wales , and i know that qualifications wales are discussing with their counterparts across the uk a modulated system across the uk . so , actually , we can make sure that our standards are maintained by actually having that modulation across the uk . so , we know that those children never have to worry about the rigour that has gone into determining that grade . so , they can have real confidence . lynne neagle am: okay . helen mary . helen mary jones am: thank you . a supplementary question that might feed into that moderation . you 'll know that the national union of students has suggested that black and minority ethnic children and children from the working class , on the whole , do n't do as well , in terms of their assessment by their own teachers . i do n't know what their evidence is for that . we also know , of course , that boys tend to do better in exams , and girls tend to do better at coursework , for whatever reason that is . so , just to ask you at this early stage to build in those considerations around potential unconscious bias into that overall system that you 're talking about . and , of course , you are right to say that , because we have got some elements of external moderation here , those factors may be less for us in wales than they might for colleagues in england . kirsty williams am: yes , i think we are starting at a different base , thank goodness . so , you 're quite right . as i said , students will have done unit 1 papers last year if they 're gcse students . dare i say it , some might even have done early entry . so , we still have elements of coursework that are externally verified . so , children might well have done lots of oral exams in their english and in their welsh language . so , we have lots of pieces of work that will have been externally verified . i certainly will ensure that these concerns are passed on . i 'm sure that qualifications wales are thinking about it . i have every confidence that they and the wjec will come up with a very comprehensive way of establishing those grades , but i have to say , in some ways , i have to step back now , because you would not expect me , in normal circumstances , to dictate to the wjec how much percentage goes for that , and how much percentage is allocated for that ; that would not be appropriate for a minister . my job is to make the decision on the examinations on the basis of having confidence that what can be put in place is fair and is equitable , and i have confidence that that will be the case . helen mary jones am: thank you . lynne neagle am: suzy . suzy davies am: a few things from me . one is , obviously , pupils are being asked to work at home as well now , some of whom will be doing gcse and a-level courses . so , there 's just a question , generally , from me— because we 're encouraging these kids to carry on working—how that will be accommodated by qualifications wales , i guess , in this modulation process . it may be that your at-home work will be of a higher standard or a lower standard than a teacher would be expecting . secondly , you mentioned the as-levels , of course , as being of value at the moment , but we 've got people in year 12 who now wo n't be doing their ass . is there any steer at this stage about what they will be expected to do ? will they be doing two sets of exams next year , for example ? or is as just off the table ? in which case , how are the a2s going to be calculated in due course ? and then , finally from me , we do have some vocational qualifications that are up for examination as well—your btecs , and i think it 's the association of accounting technicians , which is a lot of computer-based learning—which is due to be examined within three weeks . those aren ’ t a-levels or gcses . i appreciate that you may not have the answer just at the moment , but are they off as well is the question , i guess ? kirsty williams am: with regard to as-levels—no final decision has been made for exactly how those students will be treated . there are a range of options that could be used , but again , we will want to be thinking about student well-being , fairness and equity in that regard , and i will update members as soon as i have received definitive advice from qualifications wales around that , and that has n't happened yet . with regard to other types of qualifications , as you will be aware , the vast majority of btecs is a modular , continually-assessed piece of work , and we would have every expectation that btecs will be able to be awarded , but clearly , those conversations are with awarding bodies—they tend to be uk awarding bodies , rather then necessarily our wjec exam board—and those conversations are ongoing . but i have every expectation that those qualifications will be awarded and , of course , because of their nature there 's even more evidence of continued assessment . huw , i do n't know if there 's anything else that you would like to add about those types of qualifications . huw morris: no . i think you 've covered most of it . i do n't have a definitive answer for the att qualification , but we can look into that and come back to you . suzy davies am: well , i 've just had a constituent ask , so that would be very helpful . and homeworking— kirsty williams am: homeworking , right . suzy davies am: —is that going to count towards the assessments , overall assessments ? kirsty williams am: well , potentially , as i said . i do n't know the exact elements . what will be absolutely necessary is that qualifications wales and the wjec will be able to give absolute clarity and simplicity around how those grades will be arrived at , because parents , teachers and students will want to know that , and my expectation is on them to be able to clearly communicate what elements will and will not be taken into consideration when awarding those grades . suzy davies am: that 's great . at least we covered it . thank you , minister—thank you , kirsty . lynne neagle am: and , just before we move on , have the universities across the uk indicated that they are content with this approach going forward—content to accept students on this basis ? kirsty williams am: certainly . there have been discussions with universities and ucas , of course , that this also has a bearing on . one of the— . and the views of university and how university terms might be impacted is one of the ways and one of the reasons that we 've factored in to making these decisions . those discussions with universities are ongoing , are n't they , huw ? huw morris: yes . so , we 've been in regular conversation with universities wales and through them with universities uk and we 've received every indication that the approach that 's been adopted here has been welcomed by the institutions . those conversations will continue as we work through the practicalities of how the gradings that are awarded are going to feed through into university admissions decisions and enrolment . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . well , we 've got some questions now from suzy on the potential closures of colleges and universities . suzy davies am: okay . well , it 's a very general question , really . i appreciate you 've already indicated there are lots of ongoing conversations , but my understanding is whether colleges or universities close is pretty much still at their own discretion . we 're going to be asking some questions on emergency legislation shortly , which may impact on the answer you can give today , but what sort of conversations are you having with fe and he at the moment about how they decide ? kirsty williams am: well , you 're absolutely right . as we often say in this committee , universities are autonomous institutions—a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question . universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them . colleges are in a similar position , looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods , and the bill , potentially , does give us more powers of intervention in both the fe and the he sector . suzy davies am: i might ask you about that in a minute , because i do n't even know what the bill says yet . kirsty williams am: huw , i do n't know if there 's anything you want to add . huw morris: no—just to confirm what 's been said and also to add in that independent training providers , similarly autonomous , like colleges and universities , have been moving in the same direction . we 've been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that 's been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies . we 've got consistency in the approach and a common desire , and investment in moving towards online support for students . suzy davies am: and there 's still this safety net idea . certainly , colleges have indicated , as with schools , that , for the most vulnerable learners , they 'll have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis . huw morris: that 's my understanding , yes , and , again , we 've been in regular conversation with them about that . my understanding is that they 're going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions . suzy davies am: that 's fair enough . and , presumably , education maintenance allowance will still be paid . kirsty williams am: yes . arrangements have been made to ensure that ema continues to be paid to all students who are entitled . suzy davies am: that 's right . you indicated that any welsh government support 's going to stay , whatever the circumstances are—in your portfolio . kirsty williams am: yes . i 'm doing my best , but it 's an absolute yes on the ema . there will be no disruption to ema . suzy davies am: okay . you might get some further questions on he and fe . lynne neagle am: yes . we 've got some further questions , indeed , from helen mary and then hefin . helen mary jones am: now or in a bit ? lynne neagle am: yes . helen mary jones am: just further to ema , of course , at the moment , that has an attendance qualification , does n't it ? and you do n't get your ema if you do n't turn up . should we take from your last answer that that attendance qualification does n't apply anymore ? kirsty williams am: yes . they ca n't turn up if the institution is not open , and that 's not their fault . helen mary jones am: no , but that is something that 's been a worry , so that 's really encouraging to hear . thinking about students in higher education , can you give an assurance that student maintenance payments will continue as normal ? is that the intention ? kirsty williams am: yes . helen mary jones am: that 's really good to hear . and have you given any special ministerial instruction to student finance wales on processing applications for support or changes of circumstances , or is that something that 's kind of ongoing at the moment ? kirsty williams am: those conversations are ongoing with the student loans company . as i said , we anticipate no disruption to— . we do n't anticipate any change in the approach to students as a result of this . individual student circumstances could well change and our expectation would be that the student loans company would respond to that . all i would say is , just to remind people : people who work for the student loans company are no more able to resist this disease than anybody else . there will undoubtedly in some cases be really practical challenges to service delivery , simply because organisations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they are reacting to social-distancing messages from the government . so , i think we just need to bear that in mind : that these organisations are doing their best , but , if they are badly affected by staff numbers being off because of the virus , then i hope people will give them due consideration . helen mary jones am: yes , that makes sense , of course , because we 've been told that universities wo n't be able to entirely close , because there will be students who ca n't go home— kirsty williams am: it is their home . helen mary jones am: —overseas students , for example . what discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students ' basic needs are met , that there 's still food , shelter , whatever they need ? kirsty williams am: well , obviously , universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances , and every conversation that huw 's been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that . huw morris: we instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease , not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in china and other parts of south-east asia . and so , as the disease has progressed , we 've seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the uk , and i am assured that the universities here in wales have got processes in place that support those learners . helen mary jones am: that 's really helpful . and on this specifically—last question from me— have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees , should the academic year not be completed ? huw morris: so , as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online , clearly , there are lessons that will need to be taken on board . there are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs . the intention in all of these institutions is that they will complete their course of study . there are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed . failing those institutional mechanisms , there is a uk-wide system through the office of the independent adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have . so , we 're confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs . lynne neagle am: okay . suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: no , mr morris has answered my question . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've got a couple more questions now on vulnerable learners . i 've got helen mary , then hefin . helen mary jones am: i think , chair , the minister has already answered what the— . but thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and well-being of staff and learners across a range of educational settings , or , indeed , young people who ca n't access educational settings , what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and well-being might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone ? kirsty williams am: yes , that is correct . so , our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure—which i think , if we 're honest , we have to acknowledge is what we 're looking at—we would expect school staff—well-being staff , for instance in school—to be doing check-ins—phone check-ins , potentially , or facetime check-ins , with students , just to keep in touch with them as we go forward . we 'll be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available—so , for instance , meic website—so , looking to use a variety of platforms . we do , of course , have the formal nhs counselling services . i 'm concerned , of course , that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school . we know that , and we 're just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists—online counselling tools that children already use because they do n't want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor . they 're already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue , as far as possible , those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered , and their worries . i think we have to remember that this is a really worrying time for children and young people . one of the reasons , again , that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible—and teachers have been working so hard to do that—is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we 've needed and wanted to maintain . children will have worries about their own health ; they 'll have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents ; they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves . so , we need to understand , and i think we will also have to recognise , that this support will have to be ongoing once we 're back to normal , and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience . they are incredibly resilient , and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages . they are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole 'washing your hands ' and things like that than even adults have been . so , they are incredibly resilient , but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them . helen mary jones am: can i just— ? just a supplementary to that—you 've mentioned already , kirsty , the importance of youth services , and , particularly thinking voluntarily youth services , you 've given the commitment , when were talking about mudiad ysgolion meithrin earlier , that services that are part-funded by grants through the welsh government , for example , thinking of the national youth voluntary service—will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well ? obviously , local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open , but , in terms of the direct support from welsh government , can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time ? kirsty williams am: no formal decision has been made , but if people are in receipt of a government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public— helen mary jones am: because it 's not safe . kirsty williams am: —because it 's not safe to do so , i do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying , 'we 'll have our money back , thank you very much . ' lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . helen mary jones am: that will make a lot of people happy , thank you . [ laughter . ] kirsty williams am: as i said , we are facing unprecedented circumstances . the normal rules of engagement have to change and , those organisations , we 'll need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal , and we would n't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that . our call to the youth service is a call to arms , though . when we 're trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for front-line staff children , they have a valuable role to play and i know that local government and the council for wales of voluntary youth services are already in discussion about how youth services— . many of our youth services work on an outreach basis . those traditional youth clubs , because of austerity , are not necessarily there anymore , so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work , and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier . helen mary jones am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin , briefly , and then we 're going to take one final question from suzy on emergency legislation . hefin david am: all right . i 'll declare an interest as a parent of a child with additional learning needs , although the question i 'm about to ask does n't reflect her interests . additional learning needs pupils who are waiting outcomes of referrals—if they 're currently waiting an outcome of a referral , will that process will be suspended or will it continue as normal ? and , if it is suspended , will it pick up where it left off from this point ? kirsty williams am: i think we have to recognise that the ability to deliver business as usual has been massively compromised . i 'm sure people will try and continue to do their normal activities and their normal jobs , but that might not be possible . i will have to check that , hefin , to be honest . i do n't want to give you any false assurance if , actually , the intelligence on the ground is that that simply will not be able to happen . but we don't— hefin david am: can we have a clear line on that ? kirsty williams am: we do n't want to jeopardise anybody , but as i said , some of the normal services are simply not available as everybody turns their attention to trying to respond to the pandemic . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . final question—because i know that the minister 's got a lot of things that she needs to get on with—from suzy on emergency legislation . suzy davies am: i 'm not going to ask you if you 'll use any powers you get under the emergency legislation , but are you able to give us some indication of what they might be ? kirsty williams am: sure . for instance , the bill will provide welsh ministers with powers to temporarily close schools or other educational institutions , childcare premises ; powers to give temporary continuity direction—so , actually , the other way around , force things to be open—and to be able to direct resources . so , that includes , as i said , i could direct something to stay open if that institution was trying to close down . the powers also give flexibility to maybe be able to direct staff to other institutions that they would not normally work in , if that was part of our resilience needs . we 'd also be looking at , for instance , relaxing requirements around ratios in childcare settings , or we might be wanting to do things around food . so , obviously , we have rules around the level of nutrition that schools should be giving their children . if there is a continuing role for schools in providing food , we might have to be a bit more flexible about what that might look like . so , those kinds of flexibilities—to be able to suspend things , direct things—that we would not normally have in normal circumstances . suzy davies am: okay . and just to finish this one off—you may not be able to answer this one , in all fairness—in those situations where it 's the government who says 'no ' to various things , does that then help people in the situation of dawn 's nursery , and insurance claims suddenly become more likely ? kirsty williams am: i 'm not an expert on insurance , and i do n't know if anybody here can help me . but what my understanding is , is that even where government has given a direction that does not necessarily mean that you will be covered by your insurance . what we 're finding in the private sector is that insurance companies are not paying out , because even when a government has directed it , they do not regard this as a disruption to business . so , the insurance industry is not my area of expertise . suzy davies am: no , no , i accept that . kirsty williams am: it 's not my area of expertise , but from what i understand from discussions around the cabinet table , this is particularly problematic . let me give you an example about how we 've been trying to overcome some of this—it feels like an awfully long time ago now— you 'll be aware that we gave directions earlier around cancellation of school trips abroad . trying to make sure that that direction came from the foreign and commonwealth office , rather than the department for education was a real battle , because again there were fears that , unless that advice came from the foreign and commonwealth office , insurance would not kick in , and that was a two-day discussion . suzy davies am: okay . this is helpful to know , actually . kirsty williams am: so , these are the kinds of things that we 're grappling with . but , as i said , thinking about it , that was only last week , but it feels like an aeon ago . suzy davies am: i 'm not holding you to that , but it helps us manage the questions we get asked . kirsty williams am: yes , but as i said , insurance is not my area of expertise . suzy davies am: no , but thank you for answering . lynne neagle am: okay . well , we 've come to the end of our time . can i thank you for attending this morning , and your officials ? we do recognise what an incredibly challenging time this is , and we 'd like to place on record our thanks to all of you for the work that you 're doing to try and see us through this crisis . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . thank you again , all of you , for your attendance . item 3 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

kirsty admitted that they were now in a strange situation . what they were trying to work to was that they would have ongoing provision . also , they were trying to create a system that would run uniformly . such was a rapidly-evolving problem and the scale was something that they had not seen in 100 years . therefore , they would have to evolve and iterate things as they went . now they were worried about displacement activities . during the holidays , every head teacher would be in school on monday with their staff .

would that be possible that they might move children on to fewer sites ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . i 've received apologies for absence from siân gwenllian , and i 'm very pleased to welcome helen mary jones , who is substituting for siân today . can i ask whether members want to declare any interests , please ? can i just , then , place on record that i have got a son who was about to do a-levels , so is affected by the exam decision ? we 'll move on , then , to our substantive item today , which is an evidence session with the welsh government around the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on education in wales . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams , minister for education ; steve davies , who is director of the education directorate ; huw morris , who is the group director , skills , higher education and lifelong learning ; and rob orford , who is the chief scientific adviser for health . thank you all for coming . we know that this is a really difficult and pressurised time for everyone , and we appreciate your attendance . minister , i understand you wanted to make an opening statement today . kirsty williams am: yes , if that 's okay , chair . as you know , it 's not usually my practice to do that , but i think it is important today . covid-19 coronavirus is one of the most significant issues that the welsh government and the people of wales have dealt with in recent times . dealing with the impacts of this pandemic is extremely challenging . things are changing on an hourly basis , and we have to make decisions quickly to ensure public safety . but i would like to assure you that our aim , and my aim , and my main concern as the education minister is to protect all staff and pupils in our schools and other educational settings . but we also have a duty to ensure continuing and continuity of education . public health is clearly the priority here , but that does not change our belief that no child should miss out on any education , unless absolutely necessary . so , the decision to close all schools from tomorrow for statutory education provision was not taken lightly , but i believe it was necessary , given the advice and recommendations that we had received from a public health perspective and the situation that was developing on the ground . from next week , schools will have a new purpose . they will help support those most in need , including people involved in the immediate response to the coronavirus outbreak , and i 'm working with my colleagues in the cabinet , with government officials and our partners in local government to develop and finalise these plans . the key areas that we 're looking at are supporting and safeguarding the vulnerable and ensuring continuity of learning . this includes all of those who benefit from free school meals and children with additional learning needs . i can confirm that all maintained schools in wales already have access to a range of digital tools that can support distance learning through the world-class hwb digital learning platform , including virtual classrooms and video-conferencing facilities . a guide on what tools are available and how schools can use them has been developed and is being promoted widely . yesterday , i announced that , whilst there are no easy choices , we have agreed that the best way forward is not to proceed with the summer exam series . learners due to sit these exams will be awarded a fair grade to recognise their work , drawing on a range of information that is available , and i will announce further details shortly , but i felt it necessary to give early certainty to students and to staff . i would like to put on record my thanks to everyone working in education settings for the hard work that they have put in over the last few months in dealing with the virus and ensuring that pupils have been able to continue to learn . we need to continue to do this work together , as we face the continuing challenges posed by the coronavirus . diolch yn fawr . lynne neagle am: thank you very much , minister , for that statement . we 'll go to questions from members now , and i 've got some questions from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . can i thank you , kirsty , for your statement and the really difficult decisions that you 've been having to make ? you 've already indicated in your statement this morning that these decisions are not taken lightly , and we understand that that is the case across government . so , thank you for what you 've been doing . you 've outlined a little bit further there in your statement to us this morning about the new purpose . i take from what you 're saying that you have n't really developed that yet in terms of exactly what that is going to look like . you 've talked about the children of key workers , free school meals , additional learning needs . is there anything else you can tell us about that at the moment and how you might staff the schools in those particular areas ? kirsty williams am: thank you , dawn . so , you're absolutely right , our priority now is to operationalise , with colleagues in local government and schools , a practical response . and i have to say , we 're working to timescales that i would have hoped to have avoided , but given the fact that we 're having to make these decisions quite quickly , i hope that you will understand that perhaps where we start on monday might change when we have more time and more opportunities to develop programmes going forward . steve will be able to give you more details of the practical work that has already been going on , but our expectation will be that schools will be playing an important part in providing safe and secure places for children of those on the front-line response to dealing with the coronavirus to attend , and work is already under way with local authorities and individual schools on what that will look like for the emergency situation on monday . our other priority is indeed free school meals , and , again , where we eventually end up might be a different place to where we are on monday . again , we 're responding to the emergency situation that there will be families that were expecting a free school meal on monday , and , again , individual schools and local authorities are developing those plans at pace to be able to provide an emergency response as we work out a longer term plan to deal with the situation . the same thing also goes for additional learning needs , and attending to the needs of that particular group of learners . so , those conversations began a few days ago . i had the opportunity to meet with the first minister and andrew morgan , the leader of the welsh local government association , yesterday to talk about what local government could do , and what they were already doing . those plans in some places are already quite developed , and are now working at pace , but i hope you will understand that where we start on monday is the emergency response , and that work will develop as we go forward . but , steve , perhaps you could— ? because steve was the one making all those phone calls and doing the practical operational stuff , rather than me . steve . steve davies: in short , the new purpose is to meet the needs of particular groups of children and young people . in some cases , some of the response to supporting free school meals , in the short term in particular , we may use the schools as part of that , and i 'm certain that will happen in some cases . the second area is looking at how we support the children of key workers . now , there is still work to be done on identifying exactly the categories of key workers , but i think it 's really encouraging that in my discussions yesterday—i spoke with all 22 directors of education , and the examples we 're picking up in their work with schools is they 're already ahead of the curve in working with schools . so , schools have identified the number of children with health workers . it will grow , and we will need to look at that range . then , the third area is vulnerable children . they 're vulnerable sometimes in terms of education other than at school , vulnerable in terms of mental health , and for those children , as well as having an experience that we want to be planned , some have compared it to a snow day , particularly on monday , when you 're putting something together in the short term , but it will not be a formal curriculum that those children would normally go through . so , the range of activities—some will be focused on educational activities , some will be cultural , some will be sporting , and that plan will be developed on the basis of the age range of children , which in some cases may go from extremely young children up to those at the age of 16 in our all-through schools , but there will be a planned set of activities to cater for those children . what we are doing currently—i have staff back at cathays park who are in touch and working with directors of education to ensure that schools over the next two days will have been able to identify , at least at the earlier stage , in terms of health workers , the type and numbers of people . there are already schools who have informed us , and local authorities , of their plans for these activities to be starting next week , which is quite amazing , actually , given where we are . but we are expecting , and we 're writing to schools today , that during the course of next week , headteachers to be in schools , and with their staff , taking into consideration the health guidance as to which staff should or should not be in , and in that period from next monday through the two-week period , to easter , we expect staff to be both planning for delivery post easter , but also , as i said , building on and reflecting the good practice that 's already in place for schools that have engaged in activities , and i 'm sure a number of them will be inviting and enabling those children to come in on monday . so , monday will be a challenge for some , and not all will be delivering it , but we will be working so that we can get as much as possible delivered for those groups over the next two weeks , and particularly to have resilient programmes post easter for the groups of children in those three categories that i said . dawn bowden am: those that have been identified . can i just clarify one thing ? one of the identified vulnerable groups would clearly be children on the at-risk register . they would be included . steve davies: yes , definitely . vulnerable children , yes . kirsty williams am: in our discussions , we have asked local government to be working with the social services departments and individual schools to identify those children who may be in that situation . we know that , for some children , being at school is part of their safeguarding arrangements , and obviously we will need to be able to respond to those needs . steve davies: i wrote specifically yesterday to all directors of education to be assured that , for those children , the register is up to date and the plans are in place . i 'm working with albert heaney my colleague , the director for social services , who is meeting with the 22 directors of social services today to look to ensure that we are joined up in ensuring none of these children fall through the gap . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got a supplementary from hefin , and then suzy . hefin david am: a very quick and simple question : how are you going to communicate this to parents ? there 's a bigger picture and it 's changing all the time , as you said . the welsh government have a route to communication . the most helpful thing i 've seen is that public health wales have a single website with information regarding the wider issue of the virus . how will this then be cascaded to schools , because there 's obviously a time lag ? so , have you considered how this is going to be communicated directly to parents ? kirsty williams am: we 're using all of our platforms of communication to get these messages across . so , we 're using the more informal methods of communication , but are relying on a systematic approach via individual directors and through to individual schools . welsh government already has a dedicated website page with all of the relevant information about coronavirus . we 're looking , as quickly as we can , to have a frequently asked education questions page that we can update . understandably , people are communicating to us on twitter asking questions . it is impossible for the communications team here to be able to respond individually to every single person that is sending facebook messages and sending tweets , so the best way we can do that is to collate the types of questions people are asking and then to be able to have a frequently updated question and answer page to try to respond to that . with regard to parents , for instance , we 're aware of schools that have already sent a questionnaire out last night to parents saying , 'do you consider yourself to be a key worker ? do you work in the nhs ? please let us know by tomorrow so we can put arrangements in place for your children . ' so , schools are already taking the initiative and having those conversations with parents about what their needs will be . and , as i said , hefin , will it be perfect on monday ? no . it wo n't be perfect by monday , because we 're working to such constrained timescales . but we will continue to build that resilience . we also have to think about systems that look at what might the epidemic do and have systems of resilience that may work next week , given the situation we find ourselves in with public health advice at the moment . but that public health advice may change . therefore , have we got a system that will be resilient in those circumstances ? these are some of the challenges that we 're having to grapple with . so , as i said , what happens on monday might look very different to where we are if schools are still off in may . so , i hope people will understand that we are working in those kinds of scenarios . lynne neagle am: suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: yes , just on this question of vulnerable children , i 'm just wondering how much discretion teachers are going to have in including individual children who may not be obviously under social services ' care or on a risk register or whatever . teachers know their pupils and , very sensitively , they could include people who may not be obviously in need . kirsty williams am: we would absolutely respect the professional judgment of individual headteachers to be able to have those conversations with their directors . as you said , quite rightly , they are the individuals who know their children best and know which children , perhaps , will need this extra support . we will put no constraints on those teachers trying to do that work . suzy davies am: okay . the second part of my question is : there were going to be easter holidays anyway , were n't there ? what was going to happen about free-school-meal children during that period ? has that gone out of the window now , the normal holiday provision for children ? because that 's not there normally , is it , except in separate— kirsty williams am: we do find ourselves in a strange situation . my understanding is what we 're trying to work to is that we would have ongoing provision and not to make some strange , 'you get this for two weeks , then you do n't get it for two weeks , and then you 're back in . ' my understanding is , in england , that is what they 're going to do . we 're trying to create a system where it will be seamless and it will not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays . it wo n't matter to those nurses and doctors who will need to be in work during those weeks . we 're trying to create a system that will run uniformly . that 's our policy goal at the moment . lynne neagle am: helen mary . helen mary jones am: just briefly , building on suzy 's question , one particular group of children and young people that i hope will be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category is young carers . for some of them , they may not be able to come into school because the people they 're caring for may have to be excluded because of their conditions . but i think that , for other young carers , coming to school is an absolute lifeline , because they 're working at home . so , i do n't know if it 's appropriate for you to specifically mention those in discussions with local authorities , but it 's a group of young people who , again , may not be vulnerable in other ways , but because of their caring responsibilities they may need school . and the other group—and this , i suppose , goes back to suzy 's point about teachers knowing their young people—is the children who may be living in situations where they 're at risk of witnessing domestic abuse . again , these may very well not be children who are in any formal contact with social services , but being at home may be really not a good place for them to be . so , again , i 'd put in an appeal for that to be something that perhaps can be raised with schools . if a teacher is worried about what a child 's circumstances are like at home , whether they can be , as you said , kirsty , included as one of the— . they may not be formally identified , but if the teacher knows that they 're at risk , or there is an instinct that they 're at risk , they might be able to be included in children who are allowed to take advantage of this special provision you 're making at this difficult time . kirsty williams am: we will certainly raise those issues . we have to do that in the context of what is deliverable , and we also have to do that in the context of the public health advice that we are receiving as well . one of the reasons why schools are closing is to help manage this disease . we know that the ability for school closures to make a contribution to that diminishes if we have significant children in school still . so , we will take these issues into consideration , but remembering this is part of an epidemic mitigation plan . rob is the expert on that , not me . rob orford: yes , absolutely . this is a rapidly-evolving problem and the scale is something that we have n't seen in 100 years , and so we 're having to evolve and iterate things as we go . next week , i think , will look different to this week . so , it kind of is what it is . we 've all got a role to play , and schools certainly have a significant role to play in breaking those chains of transmission . areas that we 're worried about are displacement activities . if we close the schools , then people collect at others ' houses . we need to send a really clear message that you 're all part of the solution , and the things that you do by distancing yourselves from your friends and your family are really important for us to get on top of this outbreak . the more that we can do that , the easier it will be when we go forward . helen mary jones am: i 'm sure that that 's true , but i 'm sure that we would n't be wanting a child who 's in a very pressured environment with perhaps a very difficult relationship between mum and dad— . it may be very important for those children to be out of that for some of the time . hopefully , we 're talking about relatively small numbers , but i just— . kirsty williams am: we will look at vulnerability in a holistic way . lynne neagle am: janet , you had a supplementary . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair , and good morning , minister , and your team . can i just put on record my thanks for all that you 're having to endure at this moment ? i think it 's fair to say you have the support of assembly members and , indeed , our communities . now , the question i have : if cylch meithrin have to close , where will they get money from to pay their staff ? because , currently , thankfully , there 's support for businesses . lynne neagle am: janet , we 're not doing cylch meithrin at the moment ; we are sticking with schools , as we discussed in advance . dawn . dawn bowden am: can i just get some clarity , steve , around what you were saying in terms of next week ? because i think the practical applications of this—and i understand that you do n't know all of this yet , i understand that—the practical applications are what is coming to us , obviously , with constituents saying , 'well , what 's going to happen to that ? ' just so that i can be clear , are you saying that , at this stage , every headteacher will be in school on monday , as will all their staff ? steve davies: within the scope of the guidance in terms of their health , the expectation—and this will be conveyed in letters by the minister today , to be made clear—is that they are closing for the majority of pupils , but our expectation within the guidance is that the headteacher with their staff will be coming in ; for some to start the delivery of what we just described , but that will probably be small numbers , but more importantly to plan to ensure that , after the formal easter period , which is school holidays , the schools are geared to cater for the range of pupils that we 've been discussing . dawn bowden am: so , would you anticipate—again , i know this is all a bit 'if and when ' , and it depends on the changing nature of the advice , but from what you 're saying , i think we can probably anticipate that , as we go forward , there will probably be fewer schools opening and operable—that we may be moving those children on to fewer sites . would that possibly— ? kirsty williams am: that is a potential . so , we already know that one of our local authorities already has identified a strategic pattern of schools that they will want to operate in this way . that local authority has already chosen those locations , and is already having communications with how they will then staff those centres . so , that could well— . that , i expect , in the longer term , will be the nature of the provision that we will get to . but that 's not for us to dictate . the local authorities are best placed to understand what is the best , pragmatic use of the resources that they have available ; and of course those resources , primarily , are human beings . so , we 've talked a lot this morning in the context of teaching staff , teaching assistants , but we 're also having discussions with local authorities , and i met with the council for wales of voluntary youth services this week , to look at deploying youth workers , to look to be deploying other staff that the local authority may employ , like sports development officers . there may be cultural officers that can have something to offer . welsh government will be talking with a range of our partners who perhaps their normal activities ca n't continue at the moment , but actually have personnel who want to add to this effort , who want to be able to be part of a provision going forward in the longer term , to be able to provide a great place for children to be . we want to give parents , who we are asking— . let 's think about it , in these worst of times , we 're asking parents to leave their children so that they can go and do essential work , and some of that essential work is putting themselves at risk , potentially . and we want to give those parents confidence that , when they leave their child with us , that child will receive something really worthwhile , and they can direct all of their attention to doing their job . lynne neagle am: just before you— . janet , have you got a supplementary on schools now , not on early years settings ? janet finch-saunders am: i lost the signal before , so it 's a little bit confusing at this end , so bear with me . just in terms of the closure of schools , i have been asked by teachers what does new purpose—you may have covered it , but bear in mind [ inaudible . ] —mean in practice . and also , they 're already asking what will next— ? i know you said earlier that next week could look and probably will look significantly different than this week , but what can they expect to be happening next week in terms of this new purpose work ? lynne neagle am: we 've covered that , janet . kirsty williams am: first of all , janet , i just want to say thank you very much for your kind comments . that 's really , really kind of you . we will be sending a letter today to clarify those positions . so , each school will receive letters today about the expectations of schools next week . lynne neagle am: i think you 're having trouble hearing us , are n't you , so i think— ? janet finch-saunders am: no , i heard that loud and clear . lynne neagle am: but i think you missed the earlier comments , when we went into some detail on the new purpose of schools . so , i 'm sorry about that ; we are having some problems with the connection . janet finch-saunders am: yes , we could n't get a signal . lynne neagle am: dawn . dawn bowden am: just in relation to special schools and how they will fit into this new purpose arrangement . kirsty williams am: yes , they 're absolutely central to that planning . we know , again , that some of these children are our most vulnerable and they are some of our most pressurised families . therefore , the same situation that we 've just described for maintained schools also applies to special schools . we 'll be having discussions about what arrangements can be made for those children within their own usual settings . in some cases , that may not be possible . so , again , already local authorities are making different provision . can i give a shout out to the work of rhondda cynon taf in this regard , who are already doing some excellent work with regard to how they can keep in touch with their children who usually would attend their special schools . but , again , steve can give more detail . steve davies: i think special schools have already been hit by this challenge , because a significant proportion of their children , because of their conditions , have not been coming to school , they 've been isolated . but the principle we 've used there is , actually , even if it 's a minority of children who go to those schools and are vulnerable , they deserve and need that support through the school . so , we would expect that to function with the focus on vulnerable children . but similarly , even in special schools , there will be children whose parents will be key workers , so we would expect them to apply that same principle . just quickly in response to the earlier question , while we may bring some groups of children into separate schools , we ’ ll have to continue with the principle of keeping social distance and any provision for a child in a special school in a different setting would be unlikely , given the nature of the special school , so we would look to cater for that within the original school . dawn bowden am: just a couple more questions from me . it ’ s likely , because i know it has already happened , that some schools might actually close before monday . some schools have already partially closed . are you quite happy that headteachers still have the discretion to do that , if they feel that ’ s the right thing to do ? kirsty williams am: in this situation , the discretion of the head still remains . as i said , we will be communicating with all schools today about our expectations , if at all possible , to have schools open for staff to do some of this planning and to be able to respond to these priority needs that we 've just talked about . steve davies: the rationale of headteachers for closing schools up to now has been that they ca n't cope with the safety of the children . i think , moving forward , it 's unlikely that that would be a rationale that headteachers would want to use for not engaging and planning for the future . dawn bowden am: we 're only talking about one more day , now , anyway , are n't we ? so , just in terms of confirmed cases in schools , is your view at this stage that , if there is a confirmed case in a school , once that school has been deep-cleaned , it can reopen again ? kirsty williams am: if we had a confirmed case in a school , then all the usual mechanisms arranged by public health wales would kick in at that point . dawn bowden am: okay . and my final question is in relation to the position of early years and childcare settings . i know that kind of crosses over into somebody else 's portfolio as well , but i think we know that . certainly what i 've seen , and i 'm sure this is true elsewhere as well , we 've seen nurseries closing down because the parents are actually taking the children out of those nurseries . i 've got one in particular , there are kids from the ages of 6 to 12 years in there , and the parents are taking them out . they 've got 30 staff there , catering for 200 children and no children to care for and the organisation , at this stage , is unable to claim on their insurance for the ongoing payment of those staff wages . is there any advice that we can give to people in that situation at this stage ? kirsty williams am: sure . as you say , many of these settings are businesses—people 's businesses and they play a hugely important role and it 's a very worrying time for them . we have said that we will continue to pay for childcare , delivered under the childcare offer even when a child is unable , or a parent is unwilling , to take up that place . so , if that setting is receiving a childcare payment from the welsh government as part of our childcare offer , that will be paid , regardless of whether that child attends or not . and i know that we 're also working with local authorities to ensure a similar position on flying start childcare and early education . so , that payment will be made , regardless of whether a child is attending . it 's also important that childcare settings will be able to apply for the various packages of support that are being made available by my colleague , ken skates . lynne neagle am: hefin , then janet . hefin david am: yes , i 'd just like to turn that around from the parents ' point of view . with schools closing , there are a lot of parents then losing 10 hours of free childcare , but from a settings point of view , they 'll continue to be able to receive , for the time being , the nursery care . kirsty williams am: yes , so the decision that has been taken by my colleague , julie morgan , is that settings should stay open at the moment unless public health changes . that 's being kept under constant review on public health . again , the issue is that we know that that childcare is vital to many families , especially—and we 're particularly concerned about those individuals who are trying to help us overcome and solve these problems . if you have any specific questions about that , we 'll be happy to take them back to julie morgan . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: is this the cylch question ? lynne neagle am: yes , please . janet finch-saunders am: sorry , thank you . yes , just basically , cylch meithrin , there are concerns— [ interruption . ] lynne neagle am: we 've lost janet . we 'll come back to her . kirsty williams am: i think if the issue is about funding for cylch meithrin , these are not normal circumstances . as a welsh government , we will take every step to provide continuity of funding , if at all possible . we will overcome this , and when we overcome this situation we find ourselves in , we will need those childcare settings , we will need those private businesses and we will need our cylch meithrin to be there to respond and to be able to go on doing the job that they usually do for us . and if there is any way that we can , as a government , ensure that that happens by carrying on funding things , even if they are not able to run , all usual— [ inaudible . ] — around service-level agreements are off . i 'm not setting the precedent—let me make that absolutely clear . [ laughter . ] but , you know , we will not undermine businesses and voluntary provision like cylch by withdrawing welsh government funding . i hope i 've been clear . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you for that . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , kirsty . lynne neagle am: if we can move on to talk about exams , obviously you made the announcement yesterday . i completely understand that everything is a very fast-moving situation , but , as you know , there are a lot of questions that people have about young people who 've put a lot of work in . are you able to tell us any more today ? in particular , have you got any idea about timescales now for setting out what the approach will be to handling the lack of summer exams ? kirsty williams am: yes , it is a devastating decision to have to have been taken , but i have done so on the very , very clear and unambiguous advice from qualifications wales . i met with qualifications wales and the wjec yesterday . what was most important to them was that i made an early decision and i did not equivocate on what would happen for the exams . i was able to make an informal decision at that meeting , and then , of course , there is a formal process that we have to go through . that , now , allows qualifications wales and the exam board to operationalise that decision , and they will be communicating with schools as quickly as possible about what schools will need to do to ensure that the systems that they will now put in place can work . we are trying , as far as we can , as i understand it , to be able to mirror as closely as possible the usual results day , for instance . it might not be possible , because , of course , we 're dealing with a situation that requires human beings to be involved in it , and those human beings could find themselves unwell . so , our best attempts will be to maintain the normal rhythm of an exams day in august , but that has to be caveated by the fact that we 're dealing with difficult circumstances . but , the wjec and qualifications wales will be making urgent communications to exam centres to explain what will need to happen next . lynne neagle am: okay . janet , you had a question on this . janet finch-saunders am: yes , i think i raised it yesterday , kirsty , but you were receiving loads of questions . i 'd just ask for some further clarification about coursework , because only 30 per cent of that is done . years 11 and 13 , typically , in my case they 're what 's been raised with me—do you have any advice for them ? kirsty williams am: okay , so , all exams are cancelled , but year 11 and year 13 will be given a grade—i think that 's a distinction that people need to be aware of . that is because those years and those grades are gateway qualifications , and they are points of movement in the education system . so , it 's really important for those students that they are not disadvantaged in any way by not being able to receive a grade that helps them to make a decision as a qualifying step into what they will do next , whether that be university , whether that be a degree apprenticeship or whether that be going into sixth form , into a college , into an apprenticeship or into some work-based learning opportunities . that 's why we have to focus on those children , because for them , it is absolutely critical that we do . we are at an advantage in wales , can i say ? because of the nature of our examination system , those students already have a lot of externally assessed work that we can use as a basis to move forward on . because we 've kept our as-levels , we have got that data . because we have a gcse system— . our year 11s , if they 're doing triple science , they 've already done 40 per cent of their paper , so we 're very fortunate . because of the structures that we have got in our qualification system , there is already lots and lots of externally-verified work that we can use , alongside , potentially , teacher evaluation of students as well . and i think that 's really important . we ’ re starting from a better base than simply having none of that externally-verified data . what will also be important is that these children have confidence in those qualifications , and so we will be looking at a modulated arrangement within wales , and i know that qualifications wales are discussing with their counterparts across the uk a modulated system across the uk . so , actually , we can make sure that our standards are maintained by actually having that modulation across the uk . so , we know that those children never have to worry about the rigour that has gone into determining that grade . so , they can have real confidence . lynne neagle am: okay . helen mary . helen mary jones am: thank you . a supplementary question that might feed into that moderation . you 'll know that the national union of students has suggested that black and minority ethnic children and children from the working class , on the whole , do n't do as well , in terms of their assessment by their own teachers . i do n't know what their evidence is for that . we also know , of course , that boys tend to do better in exams , and girls tend to do better at coursework , for whatever reason that is . so , just to ask you at this early stage to build in those considerations around potential unconscious bias into that overall system that you 're talking about . and , of course , you are right to say that , because we have got some elements of external moderation here , those factors may be less for us in wales than they might for colleagues in england . kirsty williams am: yes , i think we are starting at a different base , thank goodness . so , you 're quite right . as i said , students will have done unit 1 papers last year if they 're gcse students . dare i say it , some might even have done early entry . so , we still have elements of coursework that are externally verified . so , children might well have done lots of oral exams in their english and in their welsh language . so , we have lots of pieces of work that will have been externally verified . i certainly will ensure that these concerns are passed on . i 'm sure that qualifications wales are thinking about it . i have every confidence that they and the wjec will come up with a very comprehensive way of establishing those grades , but i have to say , in some ways , i have to step back now , because you would not expect me , in normal circumstances , to dictate to the wjec how much percentage goes for that , and how much percentage is allocated for that ; that would not be appropriate for a minister . my job is to make the decision on the examinations on the basis of having confidence that what can be put in place is fair and is equitable , and i have confidence that that will be the case . helen mary jones am: thank you . lynne neagle am: suzy . suzy davies am: a few things from me . one is , obviously , pupils are being asked to work at home as well now , some of whom will be doing gcse and a-level courses . so , there 's just a question , generally , from me— because we 're encouraging these kids to carry on working—how that will be accommodated by qualifications wales , i guess , in this modulation process . it may be that your at-home work will be of a higher standard or a lower standard than a teacher would be expecting . secondly , you mentioned the as-levels , of course , as being of value at the moment , but we 've got people in year 12 who now wo n't be doing their ass . is there any steer at this stage about what they will be expected to do ? will they be doing two sets of exams next year , for example ? or is as just off the table ? in which case , how are the a2s going to be calculated in due course ? and then , finally from me , we do have some vocational qualifications that are up for examination as well—your btecs , and i think it 's the association of accounting technicians , which is a lot of computer-based learning—which is due to be examined within three weeks . those aren ’ t a-levels or gcses . i appreciate that you may not have the answer just at the moment , but are they off as well is the question , i guess ? kirsty williams am: with regard to as-levels—no final decision has been made for exactly how those students will be treated . there are a range of options that could be used , but again , we will want to be thinking about student well-being , fairness and equity in that regard , and i will update members as soon as i have received definitive advice from qualifications wales around that , and that has n't happened yet . with regard to other types of qualifications , as you will be aware , the vast majority of btecs is a modular , continually-assessed piece of work , and we would have every expectation that btecs will be able to be awarded , but clearly , those conversations are with awarding bodies—they tend to be uk awarding bodies , rather then necessarily our wjec exam board—and those conversations are ongoing . but i have every expectation that those qualifications will be awarded and , of course , because of their nature there 's even more evidence of continued assessment . huw , i do n't know if there 's anything else that you would like to add about those types of qualifications . huw morris: no . i think you 've covered most of it . i do n't have a definitive answer for the att qualification , but we can look into that and come back to you . suzy davies am: well , i 've just had a constituent ask , so that would be very helpful . and homeworking— kirsty williams am: homeworking , right . suzy davies am: —is that going to count towards the assessments , overall assessments ? kirsty williams am: well , potentially , as i said . i do n't know the exact elements . what will be absolutely necessary is that qualifications wales and the wjec will be able to give absolute clarity and simplicity around how those grades will be arrived at , because parents , teachers and students will want to know that , and my expectation is on them to be able to clearly communicate what elements will and will not be taken into consideration when awarding those grades . suzy davies am: that 's great . at least we covered it . thank you , minister—thank you , kirsty . lynne neagle am: and , just before we move on , have the universities across the uk indicated that they are content with this approach going forward—content to accept students on this basis ? kirsty williams am: certainly . there have been discussions with universities and ucas , of course , that this also has a bearing on . one of the— . and the views of university and how university terms might be impacted is one of the ways and one of the reasons that we 've factored in to making these decisions . those discussions with universities are ongoing , are n't they , huw ? huw morris: yes . so , we 've been in regular conversation with universities wales and through them with universities uk and we 've received every indication that the approach that 's been adopted here has been welcomed by the institutions . those conversations will continue as we work through the practicalities of how the gradings that are awarded are going to feed through into university admissions decisions and enrolment . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . well , we 've got some questions now from suzy on the potential closures of colleges and universities . suzy davies am: okay . well , it 's a very general question , really . i appreciate you 've already indicated there are lots of ongoing conversations , but my understanding is whether colleges or universities close is pretty much still at their own discretion . we 're going to be asking some questions on emergency legislation shortly , which may impact on the answer you can give today , but what sort of conversations are you having with fe and he at the moment about how they decide ? kirsty williams am: well , you 're absolutely right . as we often say in this committee , universities are autonomous institutions—a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question . universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them . colleges are in a similar position , looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods , and the bill , potentially , does give us more powers of intervention in both the fe and the he sector . suzy davies am: i might ask you about that in a minute , because i do n't even know what the bill says yet . kirsty williams am: huw , i do n't know if there 's anything you want to add . huw morris: no—just to confirm what 's been said and also to add in that independent training providers , similarly autonomous , like colleges and universities , have been moving in the same direction . we 've been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that 's been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies . we 've got consistency in the approach and a common desire , and investment in moving towards online support for students . suzy davies am: and there 's still this safety net idea . certainly , colleges have indicated , as with schools , that , for the most vulnerable learners , they 'll have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis . huw morris: that 's my understanding , yes , and , again , we 've been in regular conversation with them about that . my understanding is that they 're going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions . suzy davies am: that 's fair enough . and , presumably , education maintenance allowance will still be paid . kirsty williams am: yes . arrangements have been made to ensure that ema continues to be paid to all students who are entitled . suzy davies am: that 's right . you indicated that any welsh government support 's going to stay , whatever the circumstances are—in your portfolio . kirsty williams am: yes . i 'm doing my best , but it 's an absolute yes on the ema . there will be no disruption to ema . suzy davies am: okay . you might get some further questions on he and fe . lynne neagle am: yes . we 've got some further questions , indeed , from helen mary and then hefin . helen mary jones am: now or in a bit ? lynne neagle am: yes . helen mary jones am: just further to ema , of course , at the moment , that has an attendance qualification , does n't it ? and you do n't get your ema if you do n't turn up . should we take from your last answer that that attendance qualification does n't apply anymore ? kirsty williams am: yes . they ca n't turn up if the institution is not open , and that 's not their fault . helen mary jones am: no , but that is something that 's been a worry , so that 's really encouraging to hear . thinking about students in higher education , can you give an assurance that student maintenance payments will continue as normal ? is that the intention ? kirsty williams am: yes . helen mary jones am: that 's really good to hear . and have you given any special ministerial instruction to student finance wales on processing applications for support or changes of circumstances , or is that something that 's kind of ongoing at the moment ? kirsty williams am: those conversations are ongoing with the student loans company . as i said , we anticipate no disruption to— . we do n't anticipate any change in the approach to students as a result of this . individual student circumstances could well change and our expectation would be that the student loans company would respond to that . all i would say is , just to remind people : people who work for the student loans company are no more able to resist this disease than anybody else . there will undoubtedly in some cases be really practical challenges to service delivery , simply because organisations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they are reacting to social-distancing messages from the government . so , i think we just need to bear that in mind : that these organisations are doing their best , but , if they are badly affected by staff numbers being off because of the virus , then i hope people will give them due consideration . helen mary jones am: yes , that makes sense , of course , because we 've been told that universities wo n't be able to entirely close , because there will be students who ca n't go home— kirsty williams am: it is their home . helen mary jones am: —overseas students , for example . what discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students ' basic needs are met , that there 's still food , shelter , whatever they need ? kirsty williams am: well , obviously , universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances , and every conversation that huw 's been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that . huw morris: we instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease , not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in china and other parts of south-east asia . and so , as the disease has progressed , we 've seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the uk , and i am assured that the universities here in wales have got processes in place that support those learners . helen mary jones am: that 's really helpful . and on this specifically—last question from me— have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees , should the academic year not be completed ? huw morris: so , as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online , clearly , there are lessons that will need to be taken on board . there are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs . the intention in all of these institutions is that they will complete their course of study . there are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed . failing those institutional mechanisms , there is a uk-wide system through the office of the independent adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have . so , we 're confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs . lynne neagle am: okay . suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: no , mr morris has answered my question . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've got a couple more questions now on vulnerable learners . i 've got helen mary , then hefin . helen mary jones am: i think , chair , the minister has already answered what the— . but thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and well-being of staff and learners across a range of educational settings , or , indeed , young people who ca n't access educational settings , what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and well-being might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone ? kirsty williams am: yes , that is correct . so , our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure—which i think , if we 're honest , we have to acknowledge is what we 're looking at—we would expect school staff—well-being staff , for instance in school—to be doing check-ins—phone check-ins , potentially , or facetime check-ins , with students , just to keep in touch with them as we go forward . we 'll be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available—so , for instance , meic website—so , looking to use a variety of platforms . we do , of course , have the formal nhs counselling services . i 'm concerned , of course , that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school . we know that , and we 're just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists—online counselling tools that children already use because they do n't want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor . they 're already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue , as far as possible , those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered , and their worries . i think we have to remember that this is a really worrying time for children and young people . one of the reasons , again , that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible—and teachers have been working so hard to do that—is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we 've needed and wanted to maintain . children will have worries about their own health ; they 'll have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents ; they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves . so , we need to understand , and i think we will also have to recognise , that this support will have to be ongoing once we 're back to normal , and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience . they are incredibly resilient , and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages . they are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole 'washing your hands ' and things like that than even adults have been . so , they are incredibly resilient , but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them . helen mary jones am: can i just— ? just a supplementary to that—you 've mentioned already , kirsty , the importance of youth services , and , particularly thinking voluntarily youth services , you 've given the commitment , when were talking about mudiad ysgolion meithrin earlier , that services that are part-funded by grants through the welsh government , for example , thinking of the national youth voluntary service—will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well ? obviously , local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open , but , in terms of the direct support from welsh government , can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time ? kirsty williams am: no formal decision has been made , but if people are in receipt of a government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public— helen mary jones am: because it 's not safe . kirsty williams am: —because it 's not safe to do so , i do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying , 'we 'll have our money back , thank you very much . ' lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . helen mary jones am: that will make a lot of people happy , thank you . [ laughter . ] kirsty williams am: as i said , we are facing unprecedented circumstances . the normal rules of engagement have to change and , those organisations , we 'll need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal , and we would n't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that . our call to the youth service is a call to arms , though . when we 're trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for front-line staff children , they have a valuable role to play and i know that local government and the council for wales of voluntary youth services are already in discussion about how youth services— . many of our youth services work on an outreach basis . those traditional youth clubs , because of austerity , are not necessarily there anymore , so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work , and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier . helen mary jones am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin , briefly , and then we 're going to take one final question from suzy on emergency legislation . hefin david am: all right . i 'll declare an interest as a parent of a child with additional learning needs , although the question i 'm about to ask does n't reflect her interests . additional learning needs pupils who are waiting outcomes of referrals—if they 're currently waiting an outcome of a referral , will that process will be suspended or will it continue as normal ? and , if it is suspended , will it pick up where it left off from this point ? kirsty williams am: i think we have to recognise that the ability to deliver business as usual has been massively compromised . i 'm sure people will try and continue to do their normal activities and their normal jobs , but that might not be possible . i will have to check that , hefin , to be honest . i do n't want to give you any false assurance if , actually , the intelligence on the ground is that that simply will not be able to happen . but we don't— hefin david am: can we have a clear line on that ? kirsty williams am: we do n't want to jeopardise anybody , but as i said , some of the normal services are simply not available as everybody turns their attention to trying to respond to the pandemic . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . final question—because i know that the minister 's got a lot of things that she needs to get on with—from suzy on emergency legislation . suzy davies am: i 'm not going to ask you if you 'll use any powers you get under the emergency legislation , but are you able to give us some indication of what they might be ? kirsty williams am: sure . for instance , the bill will provide welsh ministers with powers to temporarily close schools or other educational institutions , childcare premises ; powers to give temporary continuity direction—so , actually , the other way around , force things to be open—and to be able to direct resources . so , that includes , as i said , i could direct something to stay open if that institution was trying to close down . the powers also give flexibility to maybe be able to direct staff to other institutions that they would not normally work in , if that was part of our resilience needs . we 'd also be looking at , for instance , relaxing requirements around ratios in childcare settings , or we might be wanting to do things around food . so , obviously , we have rules around the level of nutrition that schools should be giving their children . if there is a continuing role for schools in providing food , we might have to be a bit more flexible about what that might look like . so , those kinds of flexibilities—to be able to suspend things , direct things—that we would not normally have in normal circumstances . suzy davies am: okay . and just to finish this one off—you may not be able to answer this one , in all fairness—in those situations where it 's the government who says 'no ' to various things , does that then help people in the situation of dawn 's nursery , and insurance claims suddenly become more likely ? kirsty williams am: i 'm not an expert on insurance , and i do n't know if anybody here can help me . but what my understanding is , is that even where government has given a direction that does not necessarily mean that you will be covered by your insurance . what we 're finding in the private sector is that insurance companies are not paying out , because even when a government has directed it , they do not regard this as a disruption to business . so , the insurance industry is not my area of expertise . suzy davies am: no , no , i accept that . kirsty williams am: it 's not my area of expertise , but from what i understand from discussions around the cabinet table , this is particularly problematic . let me give you an example about how we 've been trying to overcome some of this—it feels like an awfully long time ago now— you 'll be aware that we gave directions earlier around cancellation of school trips abroad . trying to make sure that that direction came from the foreign and commonwealth office , rather than the department for education was a real battle , because again there were fears that , unless that advice came from the foreign and commonwealth office , insurance would not kick in , and that was a two-day discussion . suzy davies am: okay . this is helpful to know , actually . kirsty williams am: so , these are the kinds of things that we 're grappling with . but , as i said , thinking about it , that was only last week , but it feels like an aeon ago . suzy davies am: i 'm not holding you to that , but it helps us manage the questions we get asked . kirsty williams am: yes , but as i said , insurance is not my area of expertise . suzy davies am: no , but thank you for answering . lynne neagle am: okay . well , we 've come to the end of our time . can i thank you for attending this morning , and your officials ? we do recognise what an incredibly challenging time this is , and we 'd like to place on record our thanks to all of you for the work that you 're doing to try and see us through this crisis . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . thank you again , all of you , for your attendance . item 3 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

based on kirsty 's words , this was a potential . the local authority had already chosen some locations and was already having communications with how they would then staff the centers . the local authorities were best placed to understand what was the best , pragmatic use of the resources that they had available , and of course those resources , primarily , were human beings . they wanted to give the parents confidence that , when they left their child with us , that child would receive something really worthwhile , and they could direct all of their attention to doing their job .

how would special schools fit into the new purpose arrangement ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . i 've received apologies for absence from siân gwenllian , and i 'm very pleased to welcome helen mary jones , who is substituting for siân today . can i ask whether members want to declare any interests , please ? can i just , then , place on record that i have got a son who was about to do a-levels , so is affected by the exam decision ? we 'll move on , then , to our substantive item today , which is an evidence session with the welsh government around the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on education in wales . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams , minister for education ; steve davies , who is director of the education directorate ; huw morris , who is the group director , skills , higher education and lifelong learning ; and rob orford , who is the chief scientific adviser for health . thank you all for coming . we know that this is a really difficult and pressurised time for everyone , and we appreciate your attendance . minister , i understand you wanted to make an opening statement today . kirsty williams am: yes , if that 's okay , chair . as you know , it 's not usually my practice to do that , but i think it is important today . covid-19 coronavirus is one of the most significant issues that the welsh government and the people of wales have dealt with in recent times . dealing with the impacts of this pandemic is extremely challenging . things are changing on an hourly basis , and we have to make decisions quickly to ensure public safety . but i would like to assure you that our aim , and my aim , and my main concern as the education minister is to protect all staff and pupils in our schools and other educational settings . but we also have a duty to ensure continuing and continuity of education . public health is clearly the priority here , but that does not change our belief that no child should miss out on any education , unless absolutely necessary . so , the decision to close all schools from tomorrow for statutory education provision was not taken lightly , but i believe it was necessary , given the advice and recommendations that we had received from a public health perspective and the situation that was developing on the ground . from next week , schools will have a new purpose . they will help support those most in need , including people involved in the immediate response to the coronavirus outbreak , and i 'm working with my colleagues in the cabinet , with government officials and our partners in local government to develop and finalise these plans . the key areas that we 're looking at are supporting and safeguarding the vulnerable and ensuring continuity of learning . this includes all of those who benefit from free school meals and children with additional learning needs . i can confirm that all maintained schools in wales already have access to a range of digital tools that can support distance learning through the world-class hwb digital learning platform , including virtual classrooms and video-conferencing facilities . a guide on what tools are available and how schools can use them has been developed and is being promoted widely . yesterday , i announced that , whilst there are no easy choices , we have agreed that the best way forward is not to proceed with the summer exam series . learners due to sit these exams will be awarded a fair grade to recognise their work , drawing on a range of information that is available , and i will announce further details shortly , but i felt it necessary to give early certainty to students and to staff . i would like to put on record my thanks to everyone working in education settings for the hard work that they have put in over the last few months in dealing with the virus and ensuring that pupils have been able to continue to learn . we need to continue to do this work together , as we face the continuing challenges posed by the coronavirus . diolch yn fawr . lynne neagle am: thank you very much , minister , for that statement . we 'll go to questions from members now , and i 've got some questions from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . can i thank you , kirsty , for your statement and the really difficult decisions that you 've been having to make ? you 've already indicated in your statement this morning that these decisions are not taken lightly , and we understand that that is the case across government . so , thank you for what you 've been doing . you 've outlined a little bit further there in your statement to us this morning about the new purpose . i take from what you 're saying that you have n't really developed that yet in terms of exactly what that is going to look like . you 've talked about the children of key workers , free school meals , additional learning needs . is there anything else you can tell us about that at the moment and how you might staff the schools in those particular areas ? kirsty williams am: thank you , dawn . so , you're absolutely right , our priority now is to operationalise , with colleagues in local government and schools , a practical response . and i have to say , we 're working to timescales that i would have hoped to have avoided , but given the fact that we 're having to make these decisions quite quickly , i hope that you will understand that perhaps where we start on monday might change when we have more time and more opportunities to develop programmes going forward . steve will be able to give you more details of the practical work that has already been going on , but our expectation will be that schools will be playing an important part in providing safe and secure places for children of those on the front-line response to dealing with the coronavirus to attend , and work is already under way with local authorities and individual schools on what that will look like for the emergency situation on monday . our other priority is indeed free school meals , and , again , where we eventually end up might be a different place to where we are on monday . again , we 're responding to the emergency situation that there will be families that were expecting a free school meal on monday , and , again , individual schools and local authorities are developing those plans at pace to be able to provide an emergency response as we work out a longer term plan to deal with the situation . the same thing also goes for additional learning needs , and attending to the needs of that particular group of learners . so , those conversations began a few days ago . i had the opportunity to meet with the first minister and andrew morgan , the leader of the welsh local government association , yesterday to talk about what local government could do , and what they were already doing . those plans in some places are already quite developed , and are now working at pace , but i hope you will understand that where we start on monday is the emergency response , and that work will develop as we go forward . but , steve , perhaps you could— ? because steve was the one making all those phone calls and doing the practical operational stuff , rather than me . steve . steve davies: in short , the new purpose is to meet the needs of particular groups of children and young people . in some cases , some of the response to supporting free school meals , in the short term in particular , we may use the schools as part of that , and i 'm certain that will happen in some cases . the second area is looking at how we support the children of key workers . now , there is still work to be done on identifying exactly the categories of key workers , but i think it 's really encouraging that in my discussions yesterday—i spoke with all 22 directors of education , and the examples we 're picking up in their work with schools is they 're already ahead of the curve in working with schools . so , schools have identified the number of children with health workers . it will grow , and we will need to look at that range . then , the third area is vulnerable children . they 're vulnerable sometimes in terms of education other than at school , vulnerable in terms of mental health , and for those children , as well as having an experience that we want to be planned , some have compared it to a snow day , particularly on monday , when you 're putting something together in the short term , but it will not be a formal curriculum that those children would normally go through . so , the range of activities—some will be focused on educational activities , some will be cultural , some will be sporting , and that plan will be developed on the basis of the age range of children , which in some cases may go from extremely young children up to those at the age of 16 in our all-through schools , but there will be a planned set of activities to cater for those children . what we are doing currently—i have staff back at cathays park who are in touch and working with directors of education to ensure that schools over the next two days will have been able to identify , at least at the earlier stage , in terms of health workers , the type and numbers of people . there are already schools who have informed us , and local authorities , of their plans for these activities to be starting next week , which is quite amazing , actually , given where we are . but we are expecting , and we 're writing to schools today , that during the course of next week , headteachers to be in schools , and with their staff , taking into consideration the health guidance as to which staff should or should not be in , and in that period from next monday through the two-week period , to easter , we expect staff to be both planning for delivery post easter , but also , as i said , building on and reflecting the good practice that 's already in place for schools that have engaged in activities , and i 'm sure a number of them will be inviting and enabling those children to come in on monday . so , monday will be a challenge for some , and not all will be delivering it , but we will be working so that we can get as much as possible delivered for those groups over the next two weeks , and particularly to have resilient programmes post easter for the groups of children in those three categories that i said . dawn bowden am: those that have been identified . can i just clarify one thing ? one of the identified vulnerable groups would clearly be children on the at-risk register . they would be included . steve davies: yes , definitely . vulnerable children , yes . kirsty williams am: in our discussions , we have asked local government to be working with the social services departments and individual schools to identify those children who may be in that situation . we know that , for some children , being at school is part of their safeguarding arrangements , and obviously we will need to be able to respond to those needs . steve davies: i wrote specifically yesterday to all directors of education to be assured that , for those children , the register is up to date and the plans are in place . i 'm working with albert heaney my colleague , the director for social services , who is meeting with the 22 directors of social services today to look to ensure that we are joined up in ensuring none of these children fall through the gap . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got a supplementary from hefin , and then suzy . hefin david am: a very quick and simple question : how are you going to communicate this to parents ? there 's a bigger picture and it 's changing all the time , as you said . the welsh government have a route to communication . the most helpful thing i 've seen is that public health wales have a single website with information regarding the wider issue of the virus . how will this then be cascaded to schools , because there 's obviously a time lag ? so , have you considered how this is going to be communicated directly to parents ? kirsty williams am: we 're using all of our platforms of communication to get these messages across . so , we 're using the more informal methods of communication , but are relying on a systematic approach via individual directors and through to individual schools . welsh government already has a dedicated website page with all of the relevant information about coronavirus . we 're looking , as quickly as we can , to have a frequently asked education questions page that we can update . understandably , people are communicating to us on twitter asking questions . it is impossible for the communications team here to be able to respond individually to every single person that is sending facebook messages and sending tweets , so the best way we can do that is to collate the types of questions people are asking and then to be able to have a frequently updated question and answer page to try to respond to that . with regard to parents , for instance , we 're aware of schools that have already sent a questionnaire out last night to parents saying , 'do you consider yourself to be a key worker ? do you work in the nhs ? please let us know by tomorrow so we can put arrangements in place for your children . ' so , schools are already taking the initiative and having those conversations with parents about what their needs will be . and , as i said , hefin , will it be perfect on monday ? no . it wo n't be perfect by monday , because we 're working to such constrained timescales . but we will continue to build that resilience . we also have to think about systems that look at what might the epidemic do and have systems of resilience that may work next week , given the situation we find ourselves in with public health advice at the moment . but that public health advice may change . therefore , have we got a system that will be resilient in those circumstances ? these are some of the challenges that we 're having to grapple with . so , as i said , what happens on monday might look very different to where we are if schools are still off in may . so , i hope people will understand that we are working in those kinds of scenarios . lynne neagle am: suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: yes , just on this question of vulnerable children , i 'm just wondering how much discretion teachers are going to have in including individual children who may not be obviously under social services ' care or on a risk register or whatever . teachers know their pupils and , very sensitively , they could include people who may not be obviously in need . kirsty williams am: we would absolutely respect the professional judgment of individual headteachers to be able to have those conversations with their directors . as you said , quite rightly , they are the individuals who know their children best and know which children , perhaps , will need this extra support . we will put no constraints on those teachers trying to do that work . suzy davies am: okay . the second part of my question is : there were going to be easter holidays anyway , were n't there ? what was going to happen about free-school-meal children during that period ? has that gone out of the window now , the normal holiday provision for children ? because that 's not there normally , is it , except in separate— kirsty williams am: we do find ourselves in a strange situation . my understanding is what we 're trying to work to is that we would have ongoing provision and not to make some strange , 'you get this for two weeks , then you do n't get it for two weeks , and then you 're back in . ' my understanding is , in england , that is what they 're going to do . we 're trying to create a system where it will be seamless and it will not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays . it wo n't matter to those nurses and doctors who will need to be in work during those weeks . we 're trying to create a system that will run uniformly . that 's our policy goal at the moment . lynne neagle am: helen mary . helen mary jones am: just briefly , building on suzy 's question , one particular group of children and young people that i hope will be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category is young carers . for some of them , they may not be able to come into school because the people they 're caring for may have to be excluded because of their conditions . but i think that , for other young carers , coming to school is an absolute lifeline , because they 're working at home . so , i do n't know if it 's appropriate for you to specifically mention those in discussions with local authorities , but it 's a group of young people who , again , may not be vulnerable in other ways , but because of their caring responsibilities they may need school . and the other group—and this , i suppose , goes back to suzy 's point about teachers knowing their young people—is the children who may be living in situations where they 're at risk of witnessing domestic abuse . again , these may very well not be children who are in any formal contact with social services , but being at home may be really not a good place for them to be . so , again , i 'd put in an appeal for that to be something that perhaps can be raised with schools . if a teacher is worried about what a child 's circumstances are like at home , whether they can be , as you said , kirsty , included as one of the— . they may not be formally identified , but if the teacher knows that they 're at risk , or there is an instinct that they 're at risk , they might be able to be included in children who are allowed to take advantage of this special provision you 're making at this difficult time . kirsty williams am: we will certainly raise those issues . we have to do that in the context of what is deliverable , and we also have to do that in the context of the public health advice that we are receiving as well . one of the reasons why schools are closing is to help manage this disease . we know that the ability for school closures to make a contribution to that diminishes if we have significant children in school still . so , we will take these issues into consideration , but remembering this is part of an epidemic mitigation plan . rob is the expert on that , not me . rob orford: yes , absolutely . this is a rapidly-evolving problem and the scale is something that we have n't seen in 100 years , and so we 're having to evolve and iterate things as we go . next week , i think , will look different to this week . so , it kind of is what it is . we 've all got a role to play , and schools certainly have a significant role to play in breaking those chains of transmission . areas that we 're worried about are displacement activities . if we close the schools , then people collect at others ' houses . we need to send a really clear message that you 're all part of the solution , and the things that you do by distancing yourselves from your friends and your family are really important for us to get on top of this outbreak . the more that we can do that , the easier it will be when we go forward . helen mary jones am: i 'm sure that that 's true , but i 'm sure that we would n't be wanting a child who 's in a very pressured environment with perhaps a very difficult relationship between mum and dad— . it may be very important for those children to be out of that for some of the time . hopefully , we 're talking about relatively small numbers , but i just— . kirsty williams am: we will look at vulnerability in a holistic way . lynne neagle am: janet , you had a supplementary . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair , and good morning , minister , and your team . can i just put on record my thanks for all that you 're having to endure at this moment ? i think it 's fair to say you have the support of assembly members and , indeed , our communities . now , the question i have : if cylch meithrin have to close , where will they get money from to pay their staff ? because , currently , thankfully , there 's support for businesses . lynne neagle am: janet , we 're not doing cylch meithrin at the moment ; we are sticking with schools , as we discussed in advance . dawn . dawn bowden am: can i just get some clarity , steve , around what you were saying in terms of next week ? because i think the practical applications of this—and i understand that you do n't know all of this yet , i understand that—the practical applications are what is coming to us , obviously , with constituents saying , 'well , what 's going to happen to that ? ' just so that i can be clear , are you saying that , at this stage , every headteacher will be in school on monday , as will all their staff ? steve davies: within the scope of the guidance in terms of their health , the expectation—and this will be conveyed in letters by the minister today , to be made clear—is that they are closing for the majority of pupils , but our expectation within the guidance is that the headteacher with their staff will be coming in ; for some to start the delivery of what we just described , but that will probably be small numbers , but more importantly to plan to ensure that , after the formal easter period , which is school holidays , the schools are geared to cater for the range of pupils that we 've been discussing . dawn bowden am: so , would you anticipate—again , i know this is all a bit 'if and when ' , and it depends on the changing nature of the advice , but from what you 're saying , i think we can probably anticipate that , as we go forward , there will probably be fewer schools opening and operable—that we may be moving those children on to fewer sites . would that possibly— ? kirsty williams am: that is a potential . so , we already know that one of our local authorities already has identified a strategic pattern of schools that they will want to operate in this way . that local authority has already chosen those locations , and is already having communications with how they will then staff those centres . so , that could well— . that , i expect , in the longer term , will be the nature of the provision that we will get to . but that 's not for us to dictate . the local authorities are best placed to understand what is the best , pragmatic use of the resources that they have available ; and of course those resources , primarily , are human beings . so , we 've talked a lot this morning in the context of teaching staff , teaching assistants , but we 're also having discussions with local authorities , and i met with the council for wales of voluntary youth services this week , to look at deploying youth workers , to look to be deploying other staff that the local authority may employ , like sports development officers . there may be cultural officers that can have something to offer . welsh government will be talking with a range of our partners who perhaps their normal activities ca n't continue at the moment , but actually have personnel who want to add to this effort , who want to be able to be part of a provision going forward in the longer term , to be able to provide a great place for children to be . we want to give parents , who we are asking— . let 's think about it , in these worst of times , we 're asking parents to leave their children so that they can go and do essential work , and some of that essential work is putting themselves at risk , potentially . and we want to give those parents confidence that , when they leave their child with us , that child will receive something really worthwhile , and they can direct all of their attention to doing their job . lynne neagle am: just before you— . janet , have you got a supplementary on schools now , not on early years settings ? janet finch-saunders am: i lost the signal before , so it 's a little bit confusing at this end , so bear with me . just in terms of the closure of schools , i have been asked by teachers what does new purpose—you may have covered it , but bear in mind [ inaudible . ] —mean in practice . and also , they 're already asking what will next— ? i know you said earlier that next week could look and probably will look significantly different than this week , but what can they expect to be happening next week in terms of this new purpose work ? lynne neagle am: we 've covered that , janet . kirsty williams am: first of all , janet , i just want to say thank you very much for your kind comments . that 's really , really kind of you . we will be sending a letter today to clarify those positions . so , each school will receive letters today about the expectations of schools next week . lynne neagle am: i think you 're having trouble hearing us , are n't you , so i think— ? janet finch-saunders am: no , i heard that loud and clear . lynne neagle am: but i think you missed the earlier comments , when we went into some detail on the new purpose of schools . so , i 'm sorry about that ; we are having some problems with the connection . janet finch-saunders am: yes , we could n't get a signal . lynne neagle am: dawn . dawn bowden am: just in relation to special schools and how they will fit into this new purpose arrangement . kirsty williams am: yes , they 're absolutely central to that planning . we know , again , that some of these children are our most vulnerable and they are some of our most pressurised families . therefore , the same situation that we 've just described for maintained schools also applies to special schools . we 'll be having discussions about what arrangements can be made for those children within their own usual settings . in some cases , that may not be possible . so , again , already local authorities are making different provision . can i give a shout out to the work of rhondda cynon taf in this regard , who are already doing some excellent work with regard to how they can keep in touch with their children who usually would attend their special schools . but , again , steve can give more detail . steve davies: i think special schools have already been hit by this challenge , because a significant proportion of their children , because of their conditions , have not been coming to school , they 've been isolated . but the principle we 've used there is , actually , even if it 's a minority of children who go to those schools and are vulnerable , they deserve and need that support through the school . so , we would expect that to function with the focus on vulnerable children . but similarly , even in special schools , there will be children whose parents will be key workers , so we would expect them to apply that same principle . just quickly in response to the earlier question , while we may bring some groups of children into separate schools , we ’ ll have to continue with the principle of keeping social distance and any provision for a child in a special school in a different setting would be unlikely , given the nature of the special school , so we would look to cater for that within the original school . dawn bowden am: just a couple more questions from me . it ’ s likely , because i know it has already happened , that some schools might actually close before monday . some schools have already partially closed . are you quite happy that headteachers still have the discretion to do that , if they feel that ’ s the right thing to do ? kirsty williams am: in this situation , the discretion of the head still remains . as i said , we will be communicating with all schools today about our expectations , if at all possible , to have schools open for staff to do some of this planning and to be able to respond to these priority needs that we 've just talked about . steve davies: the rationale of headteachers for closing schools up to now has been that they ca n't cope with the safety of the children . i think , moving forward , it 's unlikely that that would be a rationale that headteachers would want to use for not engaging and planning for the future . dawn bowden am: we 're only talking about one more day , now , anyway , are n't we ? so , just in terms of confirmed cases in schools , is your view at this stage that , if there is a confirmed case in a school , once that school has been deep-cleaned , it can reopen again ? kirsty williams am: if we had a confirmed case in a school , then all the usual mechanisms arranged by public health wales would kick in at that point . dawn bowden am: okay . and my final question is in relation to the position of early years and childcare settings . i know that kind of crosses over into somebody else 's portfolio as well , but i think we know that . certainly what i 've seen , and i 'm sure this is true elsewhere as well , we 've seen nurseries closing down because the parents are actually taking the children out of those nurseries . i 've got one in particular , there are kids from the ages of 6 to 12 years in there , and the parents are taking them out . they 've got 30 staff there , catering for 200 children and no children to care for and the organisation , at this stage , is unable to claim on their insurance for the ongoing payment of those staff wages . is there any advice that we can give to people in that situation at this stage ? kirsty williams am: sure . as you say , many of these settings are businesses—people 's businesses and they play a hugely important role and it 's a very worrying time for them . we have said that we will continue to pay for childcare , delivered under the childcare offer even when a child is unable , or a parent is unwilling , to take up that place . so , if that setting is receiving a childcare payment from the welsh government as part of our childcare offer , that will be paid , regardless of whether that child attends or not . and i know that we 're also working with local authorities to ensure a similar position on flying start childcare and early education . so , that payment will be made , regardless of whether a child is attending . it 's also important that childcare settings will be able to apply for the various packages of support that are being made available by my colleague , ken skates . lynne neagle am: hefin , then janet . hefin david am: yes , i 'd just like to turn that around from the parents ' point of view . with schools closing , there are a lot of parents then losing 10 hours of free childcare , but from a settings point of view , they 'll continue to be able to receive , for the time being , the nursery care . kirsty williams am: yes , so the decision that has been taken by my colleague , julie morgan , is that settings should stay open at the moment unless public health changes . that 's being kept under constant review on public health . again , the issue is that we know that that childcare is vital to many families , especially—and we 're particularly concerned about those individuals who are trying to help us overcome and solve these problems . if you have any specific questions about that , we 'll be happy to take them back to julie morgan . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: is this the cylch question ? lynne neagle am: yes , please . janet finch-saunders am: sorry , thank you . yes , just basically , cylch meithrin , there are concerns— [ interruption . ] lynne neagle am: we 've lost janet . we 'll come back to her . kirsty williams am: i think if the issue is about funding for cylch meithrin , these are not normal circumstances . as a welsh government , we will take every step to provide continuity of funding , if at all possible . we will overcome this , and when we overcome this situation we find ourselves in , we will need those childcare settings , we will need those private businesses and we will need our cylch meithrin to be there to respond and to be able to go on doing the job that they usually do for us . and if there is any way that we can , as a government , ensure that that happens by carrying on funding things , even if they are not able to run , all usual— [ inaudible . ] — around service-level agreements are off . i 'm not setting the precedent—let me make that absolutely clear . [ laughter . ] but , you know , we will not undermine businesses and voluntary provision like cylch by withdrawing welsh government funding . i hope i 've been clear . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you for that . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , kirsty . lynne neagle am: if we can move on to talk about exams , obviously you made the announcement yesterday . i completely understand that everything is a very fast-moving situation , but , as you know , there are a lot of questions that people have about young people who 've put a lot of work in . are you able to tell us any more today ? in particular , have you got any idea about timescales now for setting out what the approach will be to handling the lack of summer exams ? kirsty williams am: yes , it is a devastating decision to have to have been taken , but i have done so on the very , very clear and unambiguous advice from qualifications wales . i met with qualifications wales and the wjec yesterday . what was most important to them was that i made an early decision and i did not equivocate on what would happen for the exams . i was able to make an informal decision at that meeting , and then , of course , there is a formal process that we have to go through . that , now , allows qualifications wales and the exam board to operationalise that decision , and they will be communicating with schools as quickly as possible about what schools will need to do to ensure that the systems that they will now put in place can work . we are trying , as far as we can , as i understand it , to be able to mirror as closely as possible the usual results day , for instance . it might not be possible , because , of course , we 're dealing with a situation that requires human beings to be involved in it , and those human beings could find themselves unwell . so , our best attempts will be to maintain the normal rhythm of an exams day in august , but that has to be caveated by the fact that we 're dealing with difficult circumstances . but , the wjec and qualifications wales will be making urgent communications to exam centres to explain what will need to happen next . lynne neagle am: okay . janet , you had a question on this . janet finch-saunders am: yes , i think i raised it yesterday , kirsty , but you were receiving loads of questions . i 'd just ask for some further clarification about coursework , because only 30 per cent of that is done . years 11 and 13 , typically , in my case they 're what 's been raised with me—do you have any advice for them ? kirsty williams am: okay , so , all exams are cancelled , but year 11 and year 13 will be given a grade—i think that 's a distinction that people need to be aware of . that is because those years and those grades are gateway qualifications , and they are points of movement in the education system . so , it 's really important for those students that they are not disadvantaged in any way by not being able to receive a grade that helps them to make a decision as a qualifying step into what they will do next , whether that be university , whether that be a degree apprenticeship or whether that be going into sixth form , into a college , into an apprenticeship or into some work-based learning opportunities . that 's why we have to focus on those children , because for them , it is absolutely critical that we do . we are at an advantage in wales , can i say ? because of the nature of our examination system , those students already have a lot of externally assessed work that we can use as a basis to move forward on . because we 've kept our as-levels , we have got that data . because we have a gcse system— . our year 11s , if they 're doing triple science , they 've already done 40 per cent of their paper , so we 're very fortunate . because of the structures that we have got in our qualification system , there is already lots and lots of externally-verified work that we can use , alongside , potentially , teacher evaluation of students as well . and i think that 's really important . we ’ re starting from a better base than simply having none of that externally-verified data . what will also be important is that these children have confidence in those qualifications , and so we will be looking at a modulated arrangement within wales , and i know that qualifications wales are discussing with their counterparts across the uk a modulated system across the uk . so , actually , we can make sure that our standards are maintained by actually having that modulation across the uk . so , we know that those children never have to worry about the rigour that has gone into determining that grade . so , they can have real confidence . lynne neagle am: okay . helen mary . helen mary jones am: thank you . a supplementary question that might feed into that moderation . you 'll know that the national union of students has suggested that black and minority ethnic children and children from the working class , on the whole , do n't do as well , in terms of their assessment by their own teachers . i do n't know what their evidence is for that . we also know , of course , that boys tend to do better in exams , and girls tend to do better at coursework , for whatever reason that is . so , just to ask you at this early stage to build in those considerations around potential unconscious bias into that overall system that you 're talking about . and , of course , you are right to say that , because we have got some elements of external moderation here , those factors may be less for us in wales than they might for colleagues in england . kirsty williams am: yes , i think we are starting at a different base , thank goodness . so , you 're quite right . as i said , students will have done unit 1 papers last year if they 're gcse students . dare i say it , some might even have done early entry . so , we still have elements of coursework that are externally verified . so , children might well have done lots of oral exams in their english and in their welsh language . so , we have lots of pieces of work that will have been externally verified . i certainly will ensure that these concerns are passed on . i 'm sure that qualifications wales are thinking about it . i have every confidence that they and the wjec will come up with a very comprehensive way of establishing those grades , but i have to say , in some ways , i have to step back now , because you would not expect me , in normal circumstances , to dictate to the wjec how much percentage goes for that , and how much percentage is allocated for that ; that would not be appropriate for a minister . my job is to make the decision on the examinations on the basis of having confidence that what can be put in place is fair and is equitable , and i have confidence that that will be the case . helen mary jones am: thank you . lynne neagle am: suzy . suzy davies am: a few things from me . one is , obviously , pupils are being asked to work at home as well now , some of whom will be doing gcse and a-level courses . so , there 's just a question , generally , from me— because we 're encouraging these kids to carry on working—how that will be accommodated by qualifications wales , i guess , in this modulation process . it may be that your at-home work will be of a higher standard or a lower standard than a teacher would be expecting . secondly , you mentioned the as-levels , of course , as being of value at the moment , but we 've got people in year 12 who now wo n't be doing their ass . is there any steer at this stage about what they will be expected to do ? will they be doing two sets of exams next year , for example ? or is as just off the table ? in which case , how are the a2s going to be calculated in due course ? and then , finally from me , we do have some vocational qualifications that are up for examination as well—your btecs , and i think it 's the association of accounting technicians , which is a lot of computer-based learning—which is due to be examined within three weeks . those aren ’ t a-levels or gcses . i appreciate that you may not have the answer just at the moment , but are they off as well is the question , i guess ? kirsty williams am: with regard to as-levels—no final decision has been made for exactly how those students will be treated . there are a range of options that could be used , but again , we will want to be thinking about student well-being , fairness and equity in that regard , and i will update members as soon as i have received definitive advice from qualifications wales around that , and that has n't happened yet . with regard to other types of qualifications , as you will be aware , the vast majority of btecs is a modular , continually-assessed piece of work , and we would have every expectation that btecs will be able to be awarded , but clearly , those conversations are with awarding bodies—they tend to be uk awarding bodies , rather then necessarily our wjec exam board—and those conversations are ongoing . but i have every expectation that those qualifications will be awarded and , of course , because of their nature there 's even more evidence of continued assessment . huw , i do n't know if there 's anything else that you would like to add about those types of qualifications . huw morris: no . i think you 've covered most of it . i do n't have a definitive answer for the att qualification , but we can look into that and come back to you . suzy davies am: well , i 've just had a constituent ask , so that would be very helpful . and homeworking— kirsty williams am: homeworking , right . suzy davies am: —is that going to count towards the assessments , overall assessments ? kirsty williams am: well , potentially , as i said . i do n't know the exact elements . what will be absolutely necessary is that qualifications wales and the wjec will be able to give absolute clarity and simplicity around how those grades will be arrived at , because parents , teachers and students will want to know that , and my expectation is on them to be able to clearly communicate what elements will and will not be taken into consideration when awarding those grades . suzy davies am: that 's great . at least we covered it . thank you , minister—thank you , kirsty . lynne neagle am: and , just before we move on , have the universities across the uk indicated that they are content with this approach going forward—content to accept students on this basis ? kirsty williams am: certainly . there have been discussions with universities and ucas , of course , that this also has a bearing on . one of the— . and the views of university and how university terms might be impacted is one of the ways and one of the reasons that we 've factored in to making these decisions . those discussions with universities are ongoing , are n't they , huw ? huw morris: yes . so , we 've been in regular conversation with universities wales and through them with universities uk and we 've received every indication that the approach that 's been adopted here has been welcomed by the institutions . those conversations will continue as we work through the practicalities of how the gradings that are awarded are going to feed through into university admissions decisions and enrolment . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . well , we 've got some questions now from suzy on the potential closures of colleges and universities . suzy davies am: okay . well , it 's a very general question , really . i appreciate you 've already indicated there are lots of ongoing conversations , but my understanding is whether colleges or universities close is pretty much still at their own discretion . we 're going to be asking some questions on emergency legislation shortly , which may impact on the answer you can give today , but what sort of conversations are you having with fe and he at the moment about how they decide ? kirsty williams am: well , you 're absolutely right . as we often say in this committee , universities are autonomous institutions—a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question . universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them . colleges are in a similar position , looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods , and the bill , potentially , does give us more powers of intervention in both the fe and the he sector . suzy davies am: i might ask you about that in a minute , because i do n't even know what the bill says yet . kirsty williams am: huw , i do n't know if there 's anything you want to add . huw morris: no—just to confirm what 's been said and also to add in that independent training providers , similarly autonomous , like colleges and universities , have been moving in the same direction . we 've been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that 's been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies . we 've got consistency in the approach and a common desire , and investment in moving towards online support for students . suzy davies am: and there 's still this safety net idea . certainly , colleges have indicated , as with schools , that , for the most vulnerable learners , they 'll have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis . huw morris: that 's my understanding , yes , and , again , we 've been in regular conversation with them about that . my understanding is that they 're going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions . suzy davies am: that 's fair enough . and , presumably , education maintenance allowance will still be paid . kirsty williams am: yes . arrangements have been made to ensure that ema continues to be paid to all students who are entitled . suzy davies am: that 's right . you indicated that any welsh government support 's going to stay , whatever the circumstances are—in your portfolio . kirsty williams am: yes . i 'm doing my best , but it 's an absolute yes on the ema . there will be no disruption to ema . suzy davies am: okay . you might get some further questions on he and fe . lynne neagle am: yes . we 've got some further questions , indeed , from helen mary and then hefin . helen mary jones am: now or in a bit ? lynne neagle am: yes . helen mary jones am: just further to ema , of course , at the moment , that has an attendance qualification , does n't it ? and you do n't get your ema if you do n't turn up . should we take from your last answer that that attendance qualification does n't apply anymore ? kirsty williams am: yes . they ca n't turn up if the institution is not open , and that 's not their fault . helen mary jones am: no , but that is something that 's been a worry , so that 's really encouraging to hear . thinking about students in higher education , can you give an assurance that student maintenance payments will continue as normal ? is that the intention ? kirsty williams am: yes . helen mary jones am: that 's really good to hear . and have you given any special ministerial instruction to student finance wales on processing applications for support or changes of circumstances , or is that something that 's kind of ongoing at the moment ? kirsty williams am: those conversations are ongoing with the student loans company . as i said , we anticipate no disruption to— . we do n't anticipate any change in the approach to students as a result of this . individual student circumstances could well change and our expectation would be that the student loans company would respond to that . all i would say is , just to remind people : people who work for the student loans company are no more able to resist this disease than anybody else . there will undoubtedly in some cases be really practical challenges to service delivery , simply because organisations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they are reacting to social-distancing messages from the government . so , i think we just need to bear that in mind : that these organisations are doing their best , but , if they are badly affected by staff numbers being off because of the virus , then i hope people will give them due consideration . helen mary jones am: yes , that makes sense , of course , because we 've been told that universities wo n't be able to entirely close , because there will be students who ca n't go home— kirsty williams am: it is their home . helen mary jones am: —overseas students , for example . what discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students ' basic needs are met , that there 's still food , shelter , whatever they need ? kirsty williams am: well , obviously , universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances , and every conversation that huw 's been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that . huw morris: we instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease , not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in china and other parts of south-east asia . and so , as the disease has progressed , we 've seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the uk , and i am assured that the universities here in wales have got processes in place that support those learners . helen mary jones am: that 's really helpful . and on this specifically—last question from me— have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees , should the academic year not be completed ? huw morris: so , as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online , clearly , there are lessons that will need to be taken on board . there are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs . the intention in all of these institutions is that they will complete their course of study . there are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed . failing those institutional mechanisms , there is a uk-wide system through the office of the independent adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have . so , we 're confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs . lynne neagle am: okay . suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: no , mr morris has answered my question . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've got a couple more questions now on vulnerable learners . i 've got helen mary , then hefin . helen mary jones am: i think , chair , the minister has already answered what the— . but thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and well-being of staff and learners across a range of educational settings , or , indeed , young people who ca n't access educational settings , what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and well-being might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone ? kirsty williams am: yes , that is correct . so , our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure—which i think , if we 're honest , we have to acknowledge is what we 're looking at—we would expect school staff—well-being staff , for instance in school—to be doing check-ins—phone check-ins , potentially , or facetime check-ins , with students , just to keep in touch with them as we go forward . we 'll be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available—so , for instance , meic website—so , looking to use a variety of platforms . we do , of course , have the formal nhs counselling services . i 'm concerned , of course , that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school . we know that , and we 're just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists—online counselling tools that children already use because they do n't want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor . they 're already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue , as far as possible , those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered , and their worries . i think we have to remember that this is a really worrying time for children and young people . one of the reasons , again , that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible—and teachers have been working so hard to do that—is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we 've needed and wanted to maintain . children will have worries about their own health ; they 'll have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents ; they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves . so , we need to understand , and i think we will also have to recognise , that this support will have to be ongoing once we 're back to normal , and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience . they are incredibly resilient , and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages . they are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole 'washing your hands ' and things like that than even adults have been . so , they are incredibly resilient , but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them . helen mary jones am: can i just— ? just a supplementary to that—you 've mentioned already , kirsty , the importance of youth services , and , particularly thinking voluntarily youth services , you 've given the commitment , when were talking about mudiad ysgolion meithrin earlier , that services that are part-funded by grants through the welsh government , for example , thinking of the national youth voluntary service—will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well ? obviously , local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open , but , in terms of the direct support from welsh government , can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time ? kirsty williams am: no formal decision has been made , but if people are in receipt of a government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public— helen mary jones am: because it 's not safe . kirsty williams am: —because it 's not safe to do so , i do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying , 'we 'll have our money back , thank you very much . ' lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . helen mary jones am: that will make a lot of people happy , thank you . [ laughter . ] kirsty williams am: as i said , we are facing unprecedented circumstances . the normal rules of engagement have to change and , those organisations , we 'll need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal , and we would n't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that . our call to the youth service is a call to arms , though . when we 're trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for front-line staff children , they have a valuable role to play and i know that local government and the council for wales of voluntary youth services are already in discussion about how youth services— . many of our youth services work on an outreach basis . those traditional youth clubs , because of austerity , are not necessarily there anymore , so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work , and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier . helen mary jones am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin , briefly , and then we 're going to take one final question from suzy on emergency legislation . hefin david am: all right . i 'll declare an interest as a parent of a child with additional learning needs , although the question i 'm about to ask does n't reflect her interests . additional learning needs pupils who are waiting outcomes of referrals—if they 're currently waiting an outcome of a referral , will that process will be suspended or will it continue as normal ? and , if it is suspended , will it pick up where it left off from this point ? kirsty williams am: i think we have to recognise that the ability to deliver business as usual has been massively compromised . i 'm sure people will try and continue to do their normal activities and their normal jobs , but that might not be possible . i will have to check that , hefin , to be honest . i do n't want to give you any false assurance if , actually , the intelligence on the ground is that that simply will not be able to happen . but we don't— hefin david am: can we have a clear line on that ? kirsty williams am: we do n't want to jeopardise anybody , but as i said , some of the normal services are simply not available as everybody turns their attention to trying to respond to the pandemic . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . final question—because i know that the minister 's got a lot of things that she needs to get on with—from suzy on emergency legislation . suzy davies am: i 'm not going to ask you if you 'll use any powers you get under the emergency legislation , but are you able to give us some indication of what they might be ? kirsty williams am: sure . for instance , the bill will provide welsh ministers with powers to temporarily close schools or other educational institutions , childcare premises ; powers to give temporary continuity direction—so , actually , the other way around , force things to be open—and to be able to direct resources . so , that includes , as i said , i could direct something to stay open if that institution was trying to close down . the powers also give flexibility to maybe be able to direct staff to other institutions that they would not normally work in , if that was part of our resilience needs . we 'd also be looking at , for instance , relaxing requirements around ratios in childcare settings , or we might be wanting to do things around food . so , obviously , we have rules around the level of nutrition that schools should be giving their children . if there is a continuing role for schools in providing food , we might have to be a bit more flexible about what that might look like . so , those kinds of flexibilities—to be able to suspend things , direct things—that we would not normally have in normal circumstances . suzy davies am: okay . and just to finish this one off—you may not be able to answer this one , in all fairness—in those situations where it 's the government who says 'no ' to various things , does that then help people in the situation of dawn 's nursery , and insurance claims suddenly become more likely ? kirsty williams am: i 'm not an expert on insurance , and i do n't know if anybody here can help me . but what my understanding is , is that even where government has given a direction that does not necessarily mean that you will be covered by your insurance . what we 're finding in the private sector is that insurance companies are not paying out , because even when a government has directed it , they do not regard this as a disruption to business . so , the insurance industry is not my area of expertise . suzy davies am: no , no , i accept that . kirsty williams am: it 's not my area of expertise , but from what i understand from discussions around the cabinet table , this is particularly problematic . let me give you an example about how we 've been trying to overcome some of this—it feels like an awfully long time ago now— you 'll be aware that we gave directions earlier around cancellation of school trips abroad . trying to make sure that that direction came from the foreign and commonwealth office , rather than the department for education was a real battle , because again there were fears that , unless that advice came from the foreign and commonwealth office , insurance would not kick in , and that was a two-day discussion . suzy davies am: okay . this is helpful to know , actually . kirsty williams am: so , these are the kinds of things that we 're grappling with . but , as i said , thinking about it , that was only last week , but it feels like an aeon ago . suzy davies am: i 'm not holding you to that , but it helps us manage the questions we get asked . kirsty williams am: yes , but as i said , insurance is not my area of expertise . suzy davies am: no , but thank you for answering . lynne neagle am: okay . well , we 've come to the end of our time . can i thank you for attending this morning , and your officials ? we do recognise what an incredibly challenging time this is , and we 'd like to place on record our thanks to all of you for the work that you 're doing to try and see us through this crisis . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . thank you again , all of you , for your attendance . item 3 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

already , local authorities were making different provisions . even in special schools , there would be children whose parents would be key workers . therefore , they would expect them to expect those schools to apply the same principle . they would have to continue with the principle of keeping social distance and any provision for a child in a special school in a different setting would be unlikely , given the nature of the special school . thus , they would look to cater for that within the original school .

summarize the discussion about ideas about timescales for setting out what approach would be to handling the lack of exams . </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . i 've received apologies for absence from siân gwenllian , and i 'm very pleased to welcome helen mary jones , who is substituting for siân today . can i ask whether members want to declare any interests , please ? can i just , then , place on record that i have got a son who was about to do a-levels , so is affected by the exam decision ? we 'll move on , then , to our substantive item today , which is an evidence session with the welsh government around the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on education in wales . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams , minister for education ; steve davies , who is director of the education directorate ; huw morris , who is the group director , skills , higher education and lifelong learning ; and rob orford , who is the chief scientific adviser for health . thank you all for coming . we know that this is a really difficult and pressurised time for everyone , and we appreciate your attendance . minister , i understand you wanted to make an opening statement today . kirsty williams am: yes , if that 's okay , chair . as you know , it 's not usually my practice to do that , but i think it is important today . covid-19 coronavirus is one of the most significant issues that the welsh government and the people of wales have dealt with in recent times . dealing with the impacts of this pandemic is extremely challenging . things are changing on an hourly basis , and we have to make decisions quickly to ensure public safety . but i would like to assure you that our aim , and my aim , and my main concern as the education minister is to protect all staff and pupils in our schools and other educational settings . but we also have a duty to ensure continuing and continuity of education . public health is clearly the priority here , but that does not change our belief that no child should miss out on any education , unless absolutely necessary . so , the decision to close all schools from tomorrow for statutory education provision was not taken lightly , but i believe it was necessary , given the advice and recommendations that we had received from a public health perspective and the situation that was developing on the ground . from next week , schools will have a new purpose . they will help support those most in need , including people involved in the immediate response to the coronavirus outbreak , and i 'm working with my colleagues in the cabinet , with government officials and our partners in local government to develop and finalise these plans . the key areas that we 're looking at are supporting and safeguarding the vulnerable and ensuring continuity of learning . this includes all of those who benefit from free school meals and children with additional learning needs . i can confirm that all maintained schools in wales already have access to a range of digital tools that can support distance learning through the world-class hwb digital learning platform , including virtual classrooms and video-conferencing facilities . a guide on what tools are available and how schools can use them has been developed and is being promoted widely . yesterday , i announced that , whilst there are no easy choices , we have agreed that the best way forward is not to proceed with the summer exam series . learners due to sit these exams will be awarded a fair grade to recognise their work , drawing on a range of information that is available , and i will announce further details shortly , but i felt it necessary to give early certainty to students and to staff . i would like to put on record my thanks to everyone working in education settings for the hard work that they have put in over the last few months in dealing with the virus and ensuring that pupils have been able to continue to learn . we need to continue to do this work together , as we face the continuing challenges posed by the coronavirus . diolch yn fawr . lynne neagle am: thank you very much , minister , for that statement . we 'll go to questions from members now , and i 've got some questions from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . can i thank you , kirsty , for your statement and the really difficult decisions that you 've been having to make ? you 've already indicated in your statement this morning that these decisions are not taken lightly , and we understand that that is the case across government . so , thank you for what you 've been doing . you 've outlined a little bit further there in your statement to us this morning about the new purpose . i take from what you 're saying that you have n't really developed that yet in terms of exactly what that is going to look like . you 've talked about the children of key workers , free school meals , additional learning needs . is there anything else you can tell us about that at the moment and how you might staff the schools in those particular areas ? kirsty williams am: thank you , dawn . so , you're absolutely right , our priority now is to operationalise , with colleagues in local government and schools , a practical response . and i have to say , we 're working to timescales that i would have hoped to have avoided , but given the fact that we 're having to make these decisions quite quickly , i hope that you will understand that perhaps where we start on monday might change when we have more time and more opportunities to develop programmes going forward . steve will be able to give you more details of the practical work that has already been going on , but our expectation will be that schools will be playing an important part in providing safe and secure places for children of those on the front-line response to dealing with the coronavirus to attend , and work is already under way with local authorities and individual schools on what that will look like for the emergency situation on monday . our other priority is indeed free school meals , and , again , where we eventually end up might be a different place to where we are on monday . again , we 're responding to the emergency situation that there will be families that were expecting a free school meal on monday , and , again , individual schools and local authorities are developing those plans at pace to be able to provide an emergency response as we work out a longer term plan to deal with the situation . the same thing also goes for additional learning needs , and attending to the needs of that particular group of learners . so , those conversations began a few days ago . i had the opportunity to meet with the first minister and andrew morgan , the leader of the welsh local government association , yesterday to talk about what local government could do , and what they were already doing . those plans in some places are already quite developed , and are now working at pace , but i hope you will understand that where we start on monday is the emergency response , and that work will develop as we go forward . but , steve , perhaps you could— ? because steve was the one making all those phone calls and doing the practical operational stuff , rather than me . steve . steve davies: in short , the new purpose is to meet the needs of particular groups of children and young people . in some cases , some of the response to supporting free school meals , in the short term in particular , we may use the schools as part of that , and i 'm certain that will happen in some cases . the second area is looking at how we support the children of key workers . now , there is still work to be done on identifying exactly the categories of key workers , but i think it 's really encouraging that in my discussions yesterday—i spoke with all 22 directors of education , and the examples we 're picking up in their work with schools is they 're already ahead of the curve in working with schools . so , schools have identified the number of children with health workers . it will grow , and we will need to look at that range . then , the third area is vulnerable children . they 're vulnerable sometimes in terms of education other than at school , vulnerable in terms of mental health , and for those children , as well as having an experience that we want to be planned , some have compared it to a snow day , particularly on monday , when you 're putting something together in the short term , but it will not be a formal curriculum that those children would normally go through . so , the range of activities—some will be focused on educational activities , some will be cultural , some will be sporting , and that plan will be developed on the basis of the age range of children , which in some cases may go from extremely young children up to those at the age of 16 in our all-through schools , but there will be a planned set of activities to cater for those children . what we are doing currently—i have staff back at cathays park who are in touch and working with directors of education to ensure that schools over the next two days will have been able to identify , at least at the earlier stage , in terms of health workers , the type and numbers of people . there are already schools who have informed us , and local authorities , of their plans for these activities to be starting next week , which is quite amazing , actually , given where we are . but we are expecting , and we 're writing to schools today , that during the course of next week , headteachers to be in schools , and with their staff , taking into consideration the health guidance as to which staff should or should not be in , and in that period from next monday through the two-week period , to easter , we expect staff to be both planning for delivery post easter , but also , as i said , building on and reflecting the good practice that 's already in place for schools that have engaged in activities , and i 'm sure a number of them will be inviting and enabling those children to come in on monday . so , monday will be a challenge for some , and not all will be delivering it , but we will be working so that we can get as much as possible delivered for those groups over the next two weeks , and particularly to have resilient programmes post easter for the groups of children in those three categories that i said . dawn bowden am: those that have been identified . can i just clarify one thing ? one of the identified vulnerable groups would clearly be children on the at-risk register . they would be included . steve davies: yes , definitely . vulnerable children , yes . kirsty williams am: in our discussions , we have asked local government to be working with the social services departments and individual schools to identify those children who may be in that situation . we know that , for some children , being at school is part of their safeguarding arrangements , and obviously we will need to be able to respond to those needs . steve davies: i wrote specifically yesterday to all directors of education to be assured that , for those children , the register is up to date and the plans are in place . i 'm working with albert heaney my colleague , the director for social services , who is meeting with the 22 directors of social services today to look to ensure that we are joined up in ensuring none of these children fall through the gap . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got a supplementary from hefin , and then suzy . hefin david am: a very quick and simple question : how are you going to communicate this to parents ? there 's a bigger picture and it 's changing all the time , as you said . the welsh government have a route to communication . the most helpful thing i 've seen is that public health wales have a single website with information regarding the wider issue of the virus . how will this then be cascaded to schools , because there 's obviously a time lag ? so , have you considered how this is going to be communicated directly to parents ? kirsty williams am: we 're using all of our platforms of communication to get these messages across . so , we 're using the more informal methods of communication , but are relying on a systematic approach via individual directors and through to individual schools . welsh government already has a dedicated website page with all of the relevant information about coronavirus . we 're looking , as quickly as we can , to have a frequently asked education questions page that we can update . understandably , people are communicating to us on twitter asking questions . it is impossible for the communications team here to be able to respond individually to every single person that is sending facebook messages and sending tweets , so the best way we can do that is to collate the types of questions people are asking and then to be able to have a frequently updated question and answer page to try to respond to that . with regard to parents , for instance , we 're aware of schools that have already sent a questionnaire out last night to parents saying , 'do you consider yourself to be a key worker ? do you work in the nhs ? please let us know by tomorrow so we can put arrangements in place for your children . ' so , schools are already taking the initiative and having those conversations with parents about what their needs will be . and , as i said , hefin , will it be perfect on monday ? no . it wo n't be perfect by monday , because we 're working to such constrained timescales . but we will continue to build that resilience . we also have to think about systems that look at what might the epidemic do and have systems of resilience that may work next week , given the situation we find ourselves in with public health advice at the moment . but that public health advice may change . therefore , have we got a system that will be resilient in those circumstances ? these are some of the challenges that we 're having to grapple with . so , as i said , what happens on monday might look very different to where we are if schools are still off in may . so , i hope people will understand that we are working in those kinds of scenarios . lynne neagle am: suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: yes , just on this question of vulnerable children , i 'm just wondering how much discretion teachers are going to have in including individual children who may not be obviously under social services ' care or on a risk register or whatever . teachers know their pupils and , very sensitively , they could include people who may not be obviously in need . kirsty williams am: we would absolutely respect the professional judgment of individual headteachers to be able to have those conversations with their directors . as you said , quite rightly , they are the individuals who know their children best and know which children , perhaps , will need this extra support . we will put no constraints on those teachers trying to do that work . suzy davies am: okay . the second part of my question is : there were going to be easter holidays anyway , were n't there ? what was going to happen about free-school-meal children during that period ? has that gone out of the window now , the normal holiday provision for children ? because that 's not there normally , is it , except in separate— kirsty williams am: we do find ourselves in a strange situation . my understanding is what we 're trying to work to is that we would have ongoing provision and not to make some strange , 'you get this for two weeks , then you do n't get it for two weeks , and then you 're back in . ' my understanding is , in england , that is what they 're going to do . we 're trying to create a system where it will be seamless and it will not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays . it wo n't matter to those nurses and doctors who will need to be in work during those weeks . we 're trying to create a system that will run uniformly . that 's our policy goal at the moment . lynne neagle am: helen mary . helen mary jones am: just briefly , building on suzy 's question , one particular group of children and young people that i hope will be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category is young carers . for some of them , they may not be able to come into school because the people they 're caring for may have to be excluded because of their conditions . but i think that , for other young carers , coming to school is an absolute lifeline , because they 're working at home . so , i do n't know if it 's appropriate for you to specifically mention those in discussions with local authorities , but it 's a group of young people who , again , may not be vulnerable in other ways , but because of their caring responsibilities they may need school . and the other group—and this , i suppose , goes back to suzy 's point about teachers knowing their young people—is the children who may be living in situations where they 're at risk of witnessing domestic abuse . again , these may very well not be children who are in any formal contact with social services , but being at home may be really not a good place for them to be . so , again , i 'd put in an appeal for that to be something that perhaps can be raised with schools . if a teacher is worried about what a child 's circumstances are like at home , whether they can be , as you said , kirsty , included as one of the— . they may not be formally identified , but if the teacher knows that they 're at risk , or there is an instinct that they 're at risk , they might be able to be included in children who are allowed to take advantage of this special provision you 're making at this difficult time . kirsty williams am: we will certainly raise those issues . we have to do that in the context of what is deliverable , and we also have to do that in the context of the public health advice that we are receiving as well . one of the reasons why schools are closing is to help manage this disease . we know that the ability for school closures to make a contribution to that diminishes if we have significant children in school still . so , we will take these issues into consideration , but remembering this is part of an epidemic mitigation plan . rob is the expert on that , not me . rob orford: yes , absolutely . this is a rapidly-evolving problem and the scale is something that we have n't seen in 100 years , and so we 're having to evolve and iterate things as we go . next week , i think , will look different to this week . so , it kind of is what it is . we 've all got a role to play , and schools certainly have a significant role to play in breaking those chains of transmission . areas that we 're worried about are displacement activities . if we close the schools , then people collect at others ' houses . we need to send a really clear message that you 're all part of the solution , and the things that you do by distancing yourselves from your friends and your family are really important for us to get on top of this outbreak . the more that we can do that , the easier it will be when we go forward . helen mary jones am: i 'm sure that that 's true , but i 'm sure that we would n't be wanting a child who 's in a very pressured environment with perhaps a very difficult relationship between mum and dad— . it may be very important for those children to be out of that for some of the time . hopefully , we 're talking about relatively small numbers , but i just— . kirsty williams am: we will look at vulnerability in a holistic way . lynne neagle am: janet , you had a supplementary . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair , and good morning , minister , and your team . can i just put on record my thanks for all that you 're having to endure at this moment ? i think it 's fair to say you have the support of assembly members and , indeed , our communities . now , the question i have : if cylch meithrin have to close , where will they get money from to pay their staff ? because , currently , thankfully , there 's support for businesses . lynne neagle am: janet , we 're not doing cylch meithrin at the moment ; we are sticking with schools , as we discussed in advance . dawn . dawn bowden am: can i just get some clarity , steve , around what you were saying in terms of next week ? because i think the practical applications of this—and i understand that you do n't know all of this yet , i understand that—the practical applications are what is coming to us , obviously , with constituents saying , 'well , what 's going to happen to that ? ' just so that i can be clear , are you saying that , at this stage , every headteacher will be in school on monday , as will all their staff ? steve davies: within the scope of the guidance in terms of their health , the expectation—and this will be conveyed in letters by the minister today , to be made clear—is that they are closing for the majority of pupils , but our expectation within the guidance is that the headteacher with their staff will be coming in ; for some to start the delivery of what we just described , but that will probably be small numbers , but more importantly to plan to ensure that , after the formal easter period , which is school holidays , the schools are geared to cater for the range of pupils that we 've been discussing . dawn bowden am: so , would you anticipate—again , i know this is all a bit 'if and when ' , and it depends on the changing nature of the advice , but from what you 're saying , i think we can probably anticipate that , as we go forward , there will probably be fewer schools opening and operable—that we may be moving those children on to fewer sites . would that possibly— ? kirsty williams am: that is a potential . so , we already know that one of our local authorities already has identified a strategic pattern of schools that they will want to operate in this way . that local authority has already chosen those locations , and is already having communications with how they will then staff those centres . so , that could well— . that , i expect , in the longer term , will be the nature of the provision that we will get to . but that 's not for us to dictate . the local authorities are best placed to understand what is the best , pragmatic use of the resources that they have available ; and of course those resources , primarily , are human beings . so , we 've talked a lot this morning in the context of teaching staff , teaching assistants , but we 're also having discussions with local authorities , and i met with the council for wales of voluntary youth services this week , to look at deploying youth workers , to look to be deploying other staff that the local authority may employ , like sports development officers . there may be cultural officers that can have something to offer . welsh government will be talking with a range of our partners who perhaps their normal activities ca n't continue at the moment , but actually have personnel who want to add to this effort , who want to be able to be part of a provision going forward in the longer term , to be able to provide a great place for children to be . we want to give parents , who we are asking— . let 's think about it , in these worst of times , we 're asking parents to leave their children so that they can go and do essential work , and some of that essential work is putting themselves at risk , potentially . and we want to give those parents confidence that , when they leave their child with us , that child will receive something really worthwhile , and they can direct all of their attention to doing their job . lynne neagle am: just before you— . janet , have you got a supplementary on schools now , not on early years settings ? janet finch-saunders am: i lost the signal before , so it 's a little bit confusing at this end , so bear with me . just in terms of the closure of schools , i have been asked by teachers what does new purpose—you may have covered it , but bear in mind [ inaudible . ] —mean in practice . and also , they 're already asking what will next— ? i know you said earlier that next week could look and probably will look significantly different than this week , but what can they expect to be happening next week in terms of this new purpose work ? lynne neagle am: we 've covered that , janet . kirsty williams am: first of all , janet , i just want to say thank you very much for your kind comments . that 's really , really kind of you . we will be sending a letter today to clarify those positions . so , each school will receive letters today about the expectations of schools next week . lynne neagle am: i think you 're having trouble hearing us , are n't you , so i think— ? janet finch-saunders am: no , i heard that loud and clear . lynne neagle am: but i think you missed the earlier comments , when we went into some detail on the new purpose of schools . so , i 'm sorry about that ; we are having some problems with the connection . janet finch-saunders am: yes , we could n't get a signal . lynne neagle am: dawn . dawn bowden am: just in relation to special schools and how they will fit into this new purpose arrangement . kirsty williams am: yes , they 're absolutely central to that planning . we know , again , that some of these children are our most vulnerable and they are some of our most pressurised families . therefore , the same situation that we 've just described for maintained schools also applies to special schools . we 'll be having discussions about what arrangements can be made for those children within their own usual settings . in some cases , that may not be possible . so , again , already local authorities are making different provision . can i give a shout out to the work of rhondda cynon taf in this regard , who are already doing some excellent work with regard to how they can keep in touch with their children who usually would attend their special schools . but , again , steve can give more detail . steve davies: i think special schools have already been hit by this challenge , because a significant proportion of their children , because of their conditions , have not been coming to school , they 've been isolated . but the principle we 've used there is , actually , even if it 's a minority of children who go to those schools and are vulnerable , they deserve and need that support through the school . so , we would expect that to function with the focus on vulnerable children . but similarly , even in special schools , there will be children whose parents will be key workers , so we would expect them to apply that same principle . just quickly in response to the earlier question , while we may bring some groups of children into separate schools , we ’ ll have to continue with the principle of keeping social distance and any provision for a child in a special school in a different setting would be unlikely , given the nature of the special school , so we would look to cater for that within the original school . dawn bowden am: just a couple more questions from me . it ’ s likely , because i know it has already happened , that some schools might actually close before monday . some schools have already partially closed . are you quite happy that headteachers still have the discretion to do that , if they feel that ’ s the right thing to do ? kirsty williams am: in this situation , the discretion of the head still remains . as i said , we will be communicating with all schools today about our expectations , if at all possible , to have schools open for staff to do some of this planning and to be able to respond to these priority needs that we 've just talked about . steve davies: the rationale of headteachers for closing schools up to now has been that they ca n't cope with the safety of the children . i think , moving forward , it 's unlikely that that would be a rationale that headteachers would want to use for not engaging and planning for the future . dawn bowden am: we 're only talking about one more day , now , anyway , are n't we ? so , just in terms of confirmed cases in schools , is your view at this stage that , if there is a confirmed case in a school , once that school has been deep-cleaned , it can reopen again ? kirsty williams am: if we had a confirmed case in a school , then all the usual mechanisms arranged by public health wales would kick in at that point . dawn bowden am: okay . and my final question is in relation to the position of early years and childcare settings . i know that kind of crosses over into somebody else 's portfolio as well , but i think we know that . certainly what i 've seen , and i 'm sure this is true elsewhere as well , we 've seen nurseries closing down because the parents are actually taking the children out of those nurseries . i 've got one in particular , there are kids from the ages of 6 to 12 years in there , and the parents are taking them out . they 've got 30 staff there , catering for 200 children and no children to care for and the organisation , at this stage , is unable to claim on their insurance for the ongoing payment of those staff wages . is there any advice that we can give to people in that situation at this stage ? kirsty williams am: sure . as you say , many of these settings are businesses—people 's businesses and they play a hugely important role and it 's a very worrying time for them . we have said that we will continue to pay for childcare , delivered under the childcare offer even when a child is unable , or a parent is unwilling , to take up that place . so , if that setting is receiving a childcare payment from the welsh government as part of our childcare offer , that will be paid , regardless of whether that child attends or not . and i know that we 're also working with local authorities to ensure a similar position on flying start childcare and early education . so , that payment will be made , regardless of whether a child is attending . it 's also important that childcare settings will be able to apply for the various packages of support that are being made available by my colleague , ken skates . lynne neagle am: hefin , then janet . hefin david am: yes , i 'd just like to turn that around from the parents ' point of view . with schools closing , there are a lot of parents then losing 10 hours of free childcare , but from a settings point of view , they 'll continue to be able to receive , for the time being , the nursery care . kirsty williams am: yes , so the decision that has been taken by my colleague , julie morgan , is that settings should stay open at the moment unless public health changes . that 's being kept under constant review on public health . again , the issue is that we know that that childcare is vital to many families , especially—and we 're particularly concerned about those individuals who are trying to help us overcome and solve these problems . if you have any specific questions about that , we 'll be happy to take them back to julie morgan . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: is this the cylch question ? lynne neagle am: yes , please . janet finch-saunders am: sorry , thank you . yes , just basically , cylch meithrin , there are concerns— [ interruption . ] lynne neagle am: we 've lost janet . we 'll come back to her . kirsty williams am: i think if the issue is about funding for cylch meithrin , these are not normal circumstances . as a welsh government , we will take every step to provide continuity of funding , if at all possible . we will overcome this , and when we overcome this situation we find ourselves in , we will need those childcare settings , we will need those private businesses and we will need our cylch meithrin to be there to respond and to be able to go on doing the job that they usually do for us . and if there is any way that we can , as a government , ensure that that happens by carrying on funding things , even if they are not able to run , all usual— [ inaudible . ] — around service-level agreements are off . i 'm not setting the precedent—let me make that absolutely clear . [ laughter . ] but , you know , we will not undermine businesses and voluntary provision like cylch by withdrawing welsh government funding . i hope i 've been clear . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you for that . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , kirsty . lynne neagle am: if we can move on to talk about exams , obviously you made the announcement yesterday . i completely understand that everything is a very fast-moving situation , but , as you know , there are a lot of questions that people have about young people who 've put a lot of work in . are you able to tell us any more today ? in particular , have you got any idea about timescales now for setting out what the approach will be to handling the lack of summer exams ? kirsty williams am: yes , it is a devastating decision to have to have been taken , but i have done so on the very , very clear and unambiguous advice from qualifications wales . i met with qualifications wales and the wjec yesterday . what was most important to them was that i made an early decision and i did not equivocate on what would happen for the exams . i was able to make an informal decision at that meeting , and then , of course , there is a formal process that we have to go through . that , now , allows qualifications wales and the exam board to operationalise that decision , and they will be communicating with schools as quickly as possible about what schools will need to do to ensure that the systems that they will now put in place can work . we are trying , as far as we can , as i understand it , to be able to mirror as closely as possible the usual results day , for instance . it might not be possible , because , of course , we 're dealing with a situation that requires human beings to be involved in it , and those human beings could find themselves unwell . so , our best attempts will be to maintain the normal rhythm of an exams day in august , but that has to be caveated by the fact that we 're dealing with difficult circumstances . but , the wjec and qualifications wales will be making urgent communications to exam centres to explain what will need to happen next . lynne neagle am: okay . janet , you had a question on this . janet finch-saunders am: yes , i think i raised it yesterday , kirsty , but you were receiving loads of questions . i 'd just ask for some further clarification about coursework , because only 30 per cent of that is done . years 11 and 13 , typically , in my case they 're what 's been raised with me—do you have any advice for them ? kirsty williams am: okay , so , all exams are cancelled , but year 11 and year 13 will be given a grade—i think that 's a distinction that people need to be aware of . that is because those years and those grades are gateway qualifications , and they are points of movement in the education system . so , it 's really important for those students that they are not disadvantaged in any way by not being able to receive a grade that helps them to make a decision as a qualifying step into what they will do next , whether that be university , whether that be a degree apprenticeship or whether that be going into sixth form , into a college , into an apprenticeship or into some work-based learning opportunities . that 's why we have to focus on those children , because for them , it is absolutely critical that we do . we are at an advantage in wales , can i say ? because of the nature of our examination system , those students already have a lot of externally assessed work that we can use as a basis to move forward on . because we 've kept our as-levels , we have got that data . because we have a gcse system— . our year 11s , if they 're doing triple science , they 've already done 40 per cent of their paper , so we 're very fortunate . because of the structures that we have got in our qualification system , there is already lots and lots of externally-verified work that we can use , alongside , potentially , teacher evaluation of students as well . and i think that 's really important . we ’ re starting from a better base than simply having none of that externally-verified data . what will also be important is that these children have confidence in those qualifications , and so we will be looking at a modulated arrangement within wales , and i know that qualifications wales are discussing with their counterparts across the uk a modulated system across the uk . so , actually , we can make sure that our standards are maintained by actually having that modulation across the uk . so , we know that those children never have to worry about the rigour that has gone into determining that grade . so , they can have real confidence . lynne neagle am: okay . helen mary . helen mary jones am: thank you . a supplementary question that might feed into that moderation . you 'll know that the national union of students has suggested that black and minority ethnic children and children from the working class , on the whole , do n't do as well , in terms of their assessment by their own teachers . i do n't know what their evidence is for that . we also know , of course , that boys tend to do better in exams , and girls tend to do better at coursework , for whatever reason that is . so , just to ask you at this early stage to build in those considerations around potential unconscious bias into that overall system that you 're talking about . and , of course , you are right to say that , because we have got some elements of external moderation here , those factors may be less for us in wales than they might for colleagues in england . kirsty williams am: yes , i think we are starting at a different base , thank goodness . so , you 're quite right . as i said , students will have done unit 1 papers last year if they 're gcse students . dare i say it , some might even have done early entry . so , we still have elements of coursework that are externally verified . so , children might well have done lots of oral exams in their english and in their welsh language . so , we have lots of pieces of work that will have been externally verified . i certainly will ensure that these concerns are passed on . i 'm sure that qualifications wales are thinking about it . i have every confidence that they and the wjec will come up with a very comprehensive way of establishing those grades , but i have to say , in some ways , i have to step back now , because you would not expect me , in normal circumstances , to dictate to the wjec how much percentage goes for that , and how much percentage is allocated for that ; that would not be appropriate for a minister . my job is to make the decision on the examinations on the basis of having confidence that what can be put in place is fair and is equitable , and i have confidence that that will be the case . helen mary jones am: thank you . lynne neagle am: suzy . suzy davies am: a few things from me . one is , obviously , pupils are being asked to work at home as well now , some of whom will be doing gcse and a-level courses . so , there 's just a question , generally , from me— because we 're encouraging these kids to carry on working—how that will be accommodated by qualifications wales , i guess , in this modulation process . it may be that your at-home work will be of a higher standard or a lower standard than a teacher would be expecting . secondly , you mentioned the as-levels , of course , as being of value at the moment , but we 've got people in year 12 who now wo n't be doing their ass . is there any steer at this stage about what they will be expected to do ? will they be doing two sets of exams next year , for example ? or is as just off the table ? in which case , how are the a2s going to be calculated in due course ? and then , finally from me , we do have some vocational qualifications that are up for examination as well—your btecs , and i think it 's the association of accounting technicians , which is a lot of computer-based learning—which is due to be examined within three weeks . those aren ’ t a-levels or gcses . i appreciate that you may not have the answer just at the moment , but are they off as well is the question , i guess ? kirsty williams am: with regard to as-levels—no final decision has been made for exactly how those students will be treated . there are a range of options that could be used , but again , we will want to be thinking about student well-being , fairness and equity in that regard , and i will update members as soon as i have received definitive advice from qualifications wales around that , and that has n't happened yet . with regard to other types of qualifications , as you will be aware , the vast majority of btecs is a modular , continually-assessed piece of work , and we would have every expectation that btecs will be able to be awarded , but clearly , those conversations are with awarding bodies—they tend to be uk awarding bodies , rather then necessarily our wjec exam board—and those conversations are ongoing . but i have every expectation that those qualifications will be awarded and , of course , because of their nature there 's even more evidence of continued assessment . huw , i do n't know if there 's anything else that you would like to add about those types of qualifications . huw morris: no . i think you 've covered most of it . i do n't have a definitive answer for the att qualification , but we can look into that and come back to you . suzy davies am: well , i 've just had a constituent ask , so that would be very helpful . and homeworking— kirsty williams am: homeworking , right . suzy davies am: —is that going to count towards the assessments , overall assessments ? kirsty williams am: well , potentially , as i said . i do n't know the exact elements . what will be absolutely necessary is that qualifications wales and the wjec will be able to give absolute clarity and simplicity around how those grades will be arrived at , because parents , teachers and students will want to know that , and my expectation is on them to be able to clearly communicate what elements will and will not be taken into consideration when awarding those grades . suzy davies am: that 's great . at least we covered it . thank you , minister—thank you , kirsty . lynne neagle am: and , just before we move on , have the universities across the uk indicated that they are content with this approach going forward—content to accept students on this basis ? kirsty williams am: certainly . there have been discussions with universities and ucas , of course , that this also has a bearing on . one of the— . and the views of university and how university terms might be impacted is one of the ways and one of the reasons that we 've factored in to making these decisions . those discussions with universities are ongoing , are n't they , huw ? huw morris: yes . so , we 've been in regular conversation with universities wales and through them with universities uk and we 've received every indication that the approach that 's been adopted here has been welcomed by the institutions . those conversations will continue as we work through the practicalities of how the gradings that are awarded are going to feed through into university admissions decisions and enrolment . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . well , we 've got some questions now from suzy on the potential closures of colleges and universities . suzy davies am: okay . well , it 's a very general question , really . i appreciate you 've already indicated there are lots of ongoing conversations , but my understanding is whether colleges or universities close is pretty much still at their own discretion . we 're going to be asking some questions on emergency legislation shortly , which may impact on the answer you can give today , but what sort of conversations are you having with fe and he at the moment about how they decide ? kirsty williams am: well , you 're absolutely right . as we often say in this committee , universities are autonomous institutions—a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question . universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them . colleges are in a similar position , looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods , and the bill , potentially , does give us more powers of intervention in both the fe and the he sector . suzy davies am: i might ask you about that in a minute , because i do n't even know what the bill says yet . kirsty williams am: huw , i do n't know if there 's anything you want to add . huw morris: no—just to confirm what 's been said and also to add in that independent training providers , similarly autonomous , like colleges and universities , have been moving in the same direction . we 've been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that 's been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies . we 've got consistency in the approach and a common desire , and investment in moving towards online support for students . suzy davies am: and there 's still this safety net idea . certainly , colleges have indicated , as with schools , that , for the most vulnerable learners , they 'll have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis . huw morris: that 's my understanding , yes , and , again , we 've been in regular conversation with them about that . my understanding is that they 're going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions . suzy davies am: that 's fair enough . and , presumably , education maintenance allowance will still be paid . kirsty williams am: yes . arrangements have been made to ensure that ema continues to be paid to all students who are entitled . suzy davies am: that 's right . you indicated that any welsh government support 's going to stay , whatever the circumstances are—in your portfolio . kirsty williams am: yes . i 'm doing my best , but it 's an absolute yes on the ema . there will be no disruption to ema . suzy davies am: okay . you might get some further questions on he and fe . lynne neagle am: yes . we 've got some further questions , indeed , from helen mary and then hefin . helen mary jones am: now or in a bit ? lynne neagle am: yes . helen mary jones am: just further to ema , of course , at the moment , that has an attendance qualification , does n't it ? and you do n't get your ema if you do n't turn up . should we take from your last answer that that attendance qualification does n't apply anymore ? kirsty williams am: yes . they ca n't turn up if the institution is not open , and that 's not their fault . helen mary jones am: no , but that is something that 's been a worry , so that 's really encouraging to hear . thinking about students in higher education , can you give an assurance that student maintenance payments will continue as normal ? is that the intention ? kirsty williams am: yes . helen mary jones am: that 's really good to hear . and have you given any special ministerial instruction to student finance wales on processing applications for support or changes of circumstances , or is that something that 's kind of ongoing at the moment ? kirsty williams am: those conversations are ongoing with the student loans company . as i said , we anticipate no disruption to— . we do n't anticipate any change in the approach to students as a result of this . individual student circumstances could well change and our expectation would be that the student loans company would respond to that . all i would say is , just to remind people : people who work for the student loans company are no more able to resist this disease than anybody else . there will undoubtedly in some cases be really practical challenges to service delivery , simply because organisations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they are reacting to social-distancing messages from the government . so , i think we just need to bear that in mind : that these organisations are doing their best , but , if they are badly affected by staff numbers being off because of the virus , then i hope people will give them due consideration . helen mary jones am: yes , that makes sense , of course , because we 've been told that universities wo n't be able to entirely close , because there will be students who ca n't go home— kirsty williams am: it is their home . helen mary jones am: —overseas students , for example . what discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students ' basic needs are met , that there 's still food , shelter , whatever they need ? kirsty williams am: well , obviously , universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances , and every conversation that huw 's been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that . huw morris: we instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease , not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in china and other parts of south-east asia . and so , as the disease has progressed , we 've seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the uk , and i am assured that the universities here in wales have got processes in place that support those learners . helen mary jones am: that 's really helpful . and on this specifically—last question from me— have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees , should the academic year not be completed ? huw morris: so , as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online , clearly , there are lessons that will need to be taken on board . there are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs . the intention in all of these institutions is that they will complete their course of study . there are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed . failing those institutional mechanisms , there is a uk-wide system through the office of the independent adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have . so , we 're confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs . lynne neagle am: okay . suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: no , mr morris has answered my question . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've got a couple more questions now on vulnerable learners . i 've got helen mary , then hefin . helen mary jones am: i think , chair , the minister has already answered what the— . but thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and well-being of staff and learners across a range of educational settings , or , indeed , young people who ca n't access educational settings , what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and well-being might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone ? kirsty williams am: yes , that is correct . so , our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure—which i think , if we 're honest , we have to acknowledge is what we 're looking at—we would expect school staff—well-being staff , for instance in school—to be doing check-ins—phone check-ins , potentially , or facetime check-ins , with students , just to keep in touch with them as we go forward . we 'll be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available—so , for instance , meic website—so , looking to use a variety of platforms . we do , of course , have the formal nhs counselling services . i 'm concerned , of course , that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school . we know that , and we 're just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists—online counselling tools that children already use because they do n't want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor . they 're already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue , as far as possible , those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered , and their worries . i think we have to remember that this is a really worrying time for children and young people . one of the reasons , again , that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible—and teachers have been working so hard to do that—is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we 've needed and wanted to maintain . children will have worries about their own health ; they 'll have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents ; they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves . so , we need to understand , and i think we will also have to recognise , that this support will have to be ongoing once we 're back to normal , and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience . they are incredibly resilient , and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages . they are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole 'washing your hands ' and things like that than even adults have been . so , they are incredibly resilient , but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them . helen mary jones am: can i just— ? just a supplementary to that—you 've mentioned already , kirsty , the importance of youth services , and , particularly thinking voluntarily youth services , you 've given the commitment , when were talking about mudiad ysgolion meithrin earlier , that services that are part-funded by grants through the welsh government , for example , thinking of the national youth voluntary service—will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well ? obviously , local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open , but , in terms of the direct support from welsh government , can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time ? kirsty williams am: no formal decision has been made , but if people are in receipt of a government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public— helen mary jones am: because it 's not safe . kirsty williams am: —because it 's not safe to do so , i do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying , 'we 'll have our money back , thank you very much . ' lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . helen mary jones am: that will make a lot of people happy , thank you . [ laughter . ] kirsty williams am: as i said , we are facing unprecedented circumstances . the normal rules of engagement have to change and , those organisations , we 'll need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal , and we would n't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that . our call to the youth service is a call to arms , though . when we 're trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for front-line staff children , they have a valuable role to play and i know that local government and the council for wales of voluntary youth services are already in discussion about how youth services— . many of our youth services work on an outreach basis . those traditional youth clubs , because of austerity , are not necessarily there anymore , so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work , and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier . helen mary jones am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin , briefly , and then we 're going to take one final question from suzy on emergency legislation . hefin david am: all right . i 'll declare an interest as a parent of a child with additional learning needs , although the question i 'm about to ask does n't reflect her interests . additional learning needs pupils who are waiting outcomes of referrals—if they 're currently waiting an outcome of a referral , will that process will be suspended or will it continue as normal ? and , if it is suspended , will it pick up where it left off from this point ? kirsty williams am: i think we have to recognise that the ability to deliver business as usual has been massively compromised . i 'm sure people will try and continue to do their normal activities and their normal jobs , but that might not be possible . i will have to check that , hefin , to be honest . i do n't want to give you any false assurance if , actually , the intelligence on the ground is that that simply will not be able to happen . but we don't— hefin david am: can we have a clear line on that ? kirsty williams am: we do n't want to jeopardise anybody , but as i said , some of the normal services are simply not available as everybody turns their attention to trying to respond to the pandemic . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . final question—because i know that the minister 's got a lot of things that she needs to get on with—from suzy on emergency legislation . suzy davies am: i 'm not going to ask you if you 'll use any powers you get under the emergency legislation , but are you able to give us some indication of what they might be ? kirsty williams am: sure . for instance , the bill will provide welsh ministers with powers to temporarily close schools or other educational institutions , childcare premises ; powers to give temporary continuity direction—so , actually , the other way around , force things to be open—and to be able to direct resources . so , that includes , as i said , i could direct something to stay open if that institution was trying to close down . the powers also give flexibility to maybe be able to direct staff to other institutions that they would not normally work in , if that was part of our resilience needs . we 'd also be looking at , for instance , relaxing requirements around ratios in childcare settings , or we might be wanting to do things around food . so , obviously , we have rules around the level of nutrition that schools should be giving their children . if there is a continuing role for schools in providing food , we might have to be a bit more flexible about what that might look like . so , those kinds of flexibilities—to be able to suspend things , direct things—that we would not normally have in normal circumstances . suzy davies am: okay . and just to finish this one off—you may not be able to answer this one , in all fairness—in those situations where it 's the government who says 'no ' to various things , does that then help people in the situation of dawn 's nursery , and insurance claims suddenly become more likely ? kirsty williams am: i 'm not an expert on insurance , and i do n't know if anybody here can help me . but what my understanding is , is that even where government has given a direction that does not necessarily mean that you will be covered by your insurance . what we 're finding in the private sector is that insurance companies are not paying out , because even when a government has directed it , they do not regard this as a disruption to business . so , the insurance industry is not my area of expertise . suzy davies am: no , no , i accept that . kirsty williams am: it 's not my area of expertise , but from what i understand from discussions around the cabinet table , this is particularly problematic . let me give you an example about how we 've been trying to overcome some of this—it feels like an awfully long time ago now— you 'll be aware that we gave directions earlier around cancellation of school trips abroad . trying to make sure that that direction came from the foreign and commonwealth office , rather than the department for education was a real battle , because again there were fears that , unless that advice came from the foreign and commonwealth office , insurance would not kick in , and that was a two-day discussion . suzy davies am: okay . this is helpful to know , actually . kirsty williams am: so , these are the kinds of things that we 're grappling with . but , as i said , thinking about it , that was only last week , but it feels like an aeon ago . suzy davies am: i 'm not holding you to that , but it helps us manage the questions we get asked . kirsty williams am: yes , but as i said , insurance is not my area of expertise . suzy davies am: no , but thank you for answering . lynne neagle am: okay . well , we 've come to the end of our time . can i thank you for attending this morning , and your officials ? we do recognise what an incredibly challenging time this is , and we 'd like to place on record our thanks to all of you for the work that you 're doing to try and see us through this crisis . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . thank you again , all of you , for your attendance . item 3 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

kirsty believed that it was a devastating decision to have been taken . but they had done so on the very clear and unambiguous advice from qualifications wales . they were dealing with a situation that requires human beings to be involved in it , and those human beings could find themselves unwell . therefore , their best attempts would be to maintain the normal rhythm of an exam 's day in august , but that had to be caveated by the fact that they were dealing with difficult circumstances . with regard to as-levels , no final decision has been made for exactly how those students would be treated . there were a range of options that could be used . with regard to other types of qualifications , the vast majority of btecs was a modular continually-assessed piece of work , and they would have every expectation that btecs would be able to be awarded .

what was the further clarification and advice about coursework ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . i 've received apologies for absence from siân gwenllian , and i 'm very pleased to welcome helen mary jones , who is substituting for siân today . can i ask whether members want to declare any interests , please ? can i just , then , place on record that i have got a son who was about to do a-levels , so is affected by the exam decision ? we 'll move on , then , to our substantive item today , which is an evidence session with the welsh government around the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on education in wales . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams , minister for education ; steve davies , who is director of the education directorate ; huw morris , who is the group director , skills , higher education and lifelong learning ; and rob orford , who is the chief scientific adviser for health . thank you all for coming . we know that this is a really difficult and pressurised time for everyone , and we appreciate your attendance . minister , i understand you wanted to make an opening statement today . kirsty williams am: yes , if that 's okay , chair . as you know , it 's not usually my practice to do that , but i think it is important today . covid-19 coronavirus is one of the most significant issues that the welsh government and the people of wales have dealt with in recent times . dealing with the impacts of this pandemic is extremely challenging . things are changing on an hourly basis , and we have to make decisions quickly to ensure public safety . but i would like to assure you that our aim , and my aim , and my main concern as the education minister is to protect all staff and pupils in our schools and other educational settings . but we also have a duty to ensure continuing and continuity of education . public health is clearly the priority here , but that does not change our belief that no child should miss out on any education , unless absolutely necessary . so , the decision to close all schools from tomorrow for statutory education provision was not taken lightly , but i believe it was necessary , given the advice and recommendations that we had received from a public health perspective and the situation that was developing on the ground . from next week , schools will have a new purpose . they will help support those most in need , including people involved in the immediate response to the coronavirus outbreak , and i 'm working with my colleagues in the cabinet , with government officials and our partners in local government to develop and finalise these plans . the key areas that we 're looking at are supporting and safeguarding the vulnerable and ensuring continuity of learning . this includes all of those who benefit from free school meals and children with additional learning needs . i can confirm that all maintained schools in wales already have access to a range of digital tools that can support distance learning through the world-class hwb digital learning platform , including virtual classrooms and video-conferencing facilities . a guide on what tools are available and how schools can use them has been developed and is being promoted widely . yesterday , i announced that , whilst there are no easy choices , we have agreed that the best way forward is not to proceed with the summer exam series . learners due to sit these exams will be awarded a fair grade to recognise their work , drawing on a range of information that is available , and i will announce further details shortly , but i felt it necessary to give early certainty to students and to staff . i would like to put on record my thanks to everyone working in education settings for the hard work that they have put in over the last few months in dealing with the virus and ensuring that pupils have been able to continue to learn . we need to continue to do this work together , as we face the continuing challenges posed by the coronavirus . diolch yn fawr . lynne neagle am: thank you very much , minister , for that statement . we 'll go to questions from members now , and i 've got some questions from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . can i thank you , kirsty , for your statement and the really difficult decisions that you 've been having to make ? you 've already indicated in your statement this morning that these decisions are not taken lightly , and we understand that that is the case across government . so , thank you for what you 've been doing . you 've outlined a little bit further there in your statement to us this morning about the new purpose . i take from what you 're saying that you have n't really developed that yet in terms of exactly what that is going to look like . you 've talked about the children of key workers , free school meals , additional learning needs . is there anything else you can tell us about that at the moment and how you might staff the schools in those particular areas ? kirsty williams am: thank you , dawn . so , you're absolutely right , our priority now is to operationalise , with colleagues in local government and schools , a practical response . and i have to say , we 're working to timescales that i would have hoped to have avoided , but given the fact that we 're having to make these decisions quite quickly , i hope that you will understand that perhaps where we start on monday might change when we have more time and more opportunities to develop programmes going forward . steve will be able to give you more details of the practical work that has already been going on , but our expectation will be that schools will be playing an important part in providing safe and secure places for children of those on the front-line response to dealing with the coronavirus to attend , and work is already under way with local authorities and individual schools on what that will look like for the emergency situation on monday . our other priority is indeed free school meals , and , again , where we eventually end up might be a different place to where we are on monday . again , we 're responding to the emergency situation that there will be families that were expecting a free school meal on monday , and , again , individual schools and local authorities are developing those plans at pace to be able to provide an emergency response as we work out a longer term plan to deal with the situation . the same thing also goes for additional learning needs , and attending to the needs of that particular group of learners . so , those conversations began a few days ago . i had the opportunity to meet with the first minister and andrew morgan , the leader of the welsh local government association , yesterday to talk about what local government could do , and what they were already doing . those plans in some places are already quite developed , and are now working at pace , but i hope you will understand that where we start on monday is the emergency response , and that work will develop as we go forward . but , steve , perhaps you could— ? because steve was the one making all those phone calls and doing the practical operational stuff , rather than me . steve . steve davies: in short , the new purpose is to meet the needs of particular groups of children and young people . in some cases , some of the response to supporting free school meals , in the short term in particular , we may use the schools as part of that , and i 'm certain that will happen in some cases . the second area is looking at how we support the children of key workers . now , there is still work to be done on identifying exactly the categories of key workers , but i think it 's really encouraging that in my discussions yesterday—i spoke with all 22 directors of education , and the examples we 're picking up in their work with schools is they 're already ahead of the curve in working with schools . so , schools have identified the number of children with health workers . it will grow , and we will need to look at that range . then , the third area is vulnerable children . they 're vulnerable sometimes in terms of education other than at school , vulnerable in terms of mental health , and for those children , as well as having an experience that we want to be planned , some have compared it to a snow day , particularly on monday , when you 're putting something together in the short term , but it will not be a formal curriculum that those children would normally go through . so , the range of activities—some will be focused on educational activities , some will be cultural , some will be sporting , and that plan will be developed on the basis of the age range of children , which in some cases may go from extremely young children up to those at the age of 16 in our all-through schools , but there will be a planned set of activities to cater for those children . what we are doing currently—i have staff back at cathays park who are in touch and working with directors of education to ensure that schools over the next two days will have been able to identify , at least at the earlier stage , in terms of health workers , the type and numbers of people . there are already schools who have informed us , and local authorities , of their plans for these activities to be starting next week , which is quite amazing , actually , given where we are . but we are expecting , and we 're writing to schools today , that during the course of next week , headteachers to be in schools , and with their staff , taking into consideration the health guidance as to which staff should or should not be in , and in that period from next monday through the two-week period , to easter , we expect staff to be both planning for delivery post easter , but also , as i said , building on and reflecting the good practice that 's already in place for schools that have engaged in activities , and i 'm sure a number of them will be inviting and enabling those children to come in on monday . so , monday will be a challenge for some , and not all will be delivering it , but we will be working so that we can get as much as possible delivered for those groups over the next two weeks , and particularly to have resilient programmes post easter for the groups of children in those three categories that i said . dawn bowden am: those that have been identified . can i just clarify one thing ? one of the identified vulnerable groups would clearly be children on the at-risk register . they would be included . steve davies: yes , definitely . vulnerable children , yes . kirsty williams am: in our discussions , we have asked local government to be working with the social services departments and individual schools to identify those children who may be in that situation . we know that , for some children , being at school is part of their safeguarding arrangements , and obviously we will need to be able to respond to those needs . steve davies: i wrote specifically yesterday to all directors of education to be assured that , for those children , the register is up to date and the plans are in place . i 'm working with albert heaney my colleague , the director for social services , who is meeting with the 22 directors of social services today to look to ensure that we are joined up in ensuring none of these children fall through the gap . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got a supplementary from hefin , and then suzy . hefin david am: a very quick and simple question : how are you going to communicate this to parents ? there 's a bigger picture and it 's changing all the time , as you said . the welsh government have a route to communication . the most helpful thing i 've seen is that public health wales have a single website with information regarding the wider issue of the virus . how will this then be cascaded to schools , because there 's obviously a time lag ? so , have you considered how this is going to be communicated directly to parents ? kirsty williams am: we 're using all of our platforms of communication to get these messages across . so , we 're using the more informal methods of communication , but are relying on a systematic approach via individual directors and through to individual schools . welsh government already has a dedicated website page with all of the relevant information about coronavirus . we 're looking , as quickly as we can , to have a frequently asked education questions page that we can update . understandably , people are communicating to us on twitter asking questions . it is impossible for the communications team here to be able to respond individually to every single person that is sending facebook messages and sending tweets , so the best way we can do that is to collate the types of questions people are asking and then to be able to have a frequently updated question and answer page to try to respond to that . with regard to parents , for instance , we 're aware of schools that have already sent a questionnaire out last night to parents saying , 'do you consider yourself to be a key worker ? do you work in the nhs ? please let us know by tomorrow so we can put arrangements in place for your children . ' so , schools are already taking the initiative and having those conversations with parents about what their needs will be . and , as i said , hefin , will it be perfect on monday ? no . it wo n't be perfect by monday , because we 're working to such constrained timescales . but we will continue to build that resilience . we also have to think about systems that look at what might the epidemic do and have systems of resilience that may work next week , given the situation we find ourselves in with public health advice at the moment . but that public health advice may change . therefore , have we got a system that will be resilient in those circumstances ? these are some of the challenges that we 're having to grapple with . so , as i said , what happens on monday might look very different to where we are if schools are still off in may . so , i hope people will understand that we are working in those kinds of scenarios . lynne neagle am: suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: yes , just on this question of vulnerable children , i 'm just wondering how much discretion teachers are going to have in including individual children who may not be obviously under social services ' care or on a risk register or whatever . teachers know their pupils and , very sensitively , they could include people who may not be obviously in need . kirsty williams am: we would absolutely respect the professional judgment of individual headteachers to be able to have those conversations with their directors . as you said , quite rightly , they are the individuals who know their children best and know which children , perhaps , will need this extra support . we will put no constraints on those teachers trying to do that work . suzy davies am: okay . the second part of my question is : there were going to be easter holidays anyway , were n't there ? what was going to happen about free-school-meal children during that period ? has that gone out of the window now , the normal holiday provision for children ? because that 's not there normally , is it , except in separate— kirsty williams am: we do find ourselves in a strange situation . my understanding is what we 're trying to work to is that we would have ongoing provision and not to make some strange , 'you get this for two weeks , then you do n't get it for two weeks , and then you 're back in . ' my understanding is , in england , that is what they 're going to do . we 're trying to create a system where it will be seamless and it will not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays . it wo n't matter to those nurses and doctors who will need to be in work during those weeks . we 're trying to create a system that will run uniformly . that 's our policy goal at the moment . lynne neagle am: helen mary . helen mary jones am: just briefly , building on suzy 's question , one particular group of children and young people that i hope will be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category is young carers . for some of them , they may not be able to come into school because the people they 're caring for may have to be excluded because of their conditions . but i think that , for other young carers , coming to school is an absolute lifeline , because they 're working at home . so , i do n't know if it 's appropriate for you to specifically mention those in discussions with local authorities , but it 's a group of young people who , again , may not be vulnerable in other ways , but because of their caring responsibilities they may need school . and the other group—and this , i suppose , goes back to suzy 's point about teachers knowing their young people—is the children who may be living in situations where they 're at risk of witnessing domestic abuse . again , these may very well not be children who are in any formal contact with social services , but being at home may be really not a good place for them to be . so , again , i 'd put in an appeal for that to be something that perhaps can be raised with schools . if a teacher is worried about what a child 's circumstances are like at home , whether they can be , as you said , kirsty , included as one of the— . they may not be formally identified , but if the teacher knows that they 're at risk , or there is an instinct that they 're at risk , they might be able to be included in children who are allowed to take advantage of this special provision you 're making at this difficult time . kirsty williams am: we will certainly raise those issues . we have to do that in the context of what is deliverable , and we also have to do that in the context of the public health advice that we are receiving as well . one of the reasons why schools are closing is to help manage this disease . we know that the ability for school closures to make a contribution to that diminishes if we have significant children in school still . so , we will take these issues into consideration , but remembering this is part of an epidemic mitigation plan . rob is the expert on that , not me . rob orford: yes , absolutely . this is a rapidly-evolving problem and the scale is something that we have n't seen in 100 years , and so we 're having to evolve and iterate things as we go . next week , i think , will look different to this week . so , it kind of is what it is . we 've all got a role to play , and schools certainly have a significant role to play in breaking those chains of transmission . areas that we 're worried about are displacement activities . if we close the schools , then people collect at others ' houses . we need to send a really clear message that you 're all part of the solution , and the things that you do by distancing yourselves from your friends and your family are really important for us to get on top of this outbreak . the more that we can do that , the easier it will be when we go forward . helen mary jones am: i 'm sure that that 's true , but i 'm sure that we would n't be wanting a child who 's in a very pressured environment with perhaps a very difficult relationship between mum and dad— . it may be very important for those children to be out of that for some of the time . hopefully , we 're talking about relatively small numbers , but i just— . kirsty williams am: we will look at vulnerability in a holistic way . lynne neagle am: janet , you had a supplementary . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair , and good morning , minister , and your team . can i just put on record my thanks for all that you 're having to endure at this moment ? i think it 's fair to say you have the support of assembly members and , indeed , our communities . now , the question i have : if cylch meithrin have to close , where will they get money from to pay their staff ? because , currently , thankfully , there 's support for businesses . lynne neagle am: janet , we 're not doing cylch meithrin at the moment ; we are sticking with schools , as we discussed in advance . dawn . dawn bowden am: can i just get some clarity , steve , around what you were saying in terms of next week ? because i think the practical applications of this—and i understand that you do n't know all of this yet , i understand that—the practical applications are what is coming to us , obviously , with constituents saying , 'well , what 's going to happen to that ? ' just so that i can be clear , are you saying that , at this stage , every headteacher will be in school on monday , as will all their staff ? steve davies: within the scope of the guidance in terms of their health , the expectation—and this will be conveyed in letters by the minister today , to be made clear—is that they are closing for the majority of pupils , but our expectation within the guidance is that the headteacher with their staff will be coming in ; for some to start the delivery of what we just described , but that will probably be small numbers , but more importantly to plan to ensure that , after the formal easter period , which is school holidays , the schools are geared to cater for the range of pupils that we 've been discussing . dawn bowden am: so , would you anticipate—again , i know this is all a bit 'if and when ' , and it depends on the changing nature of the advice , but from what you 're saying , i think we can probably anticipate that , as we go forward , there will probably be fewer schools opening and operable—that we may be moving those children on to fewer sites . would that possibly— ? kirsty williams am: that is a potential . so , we already know that one of our local authorities already has identified a strategic pattern of schools that they will want to operate in this way . that local authority has already chosen those locations , and is already having communications with how they will then staff those centres . so , that could well— . that , i expect , in the longer term , will be the nature of the provision that we will get to . but that 's not for us to dictate . the local authorities are best placed to understand what is the best , pragmatic use of the resources that they have available ; and of course those resources , primarily , are human beings . so , we 've talked a lot this morning in the context of teaching staff , teaching assistants , but we 're also having discussions with local authorities , and i met with the council for wales of voluntary youth services this week , to look at deploying youth workers , to look to be deploying other staff that the local authority may employ , like sports development officers . there may be cultural officers that can have something to offer . welsh government will be talking with a range of our partners who perhaps their normal activities ca n't continue at the moment , but actually have personnel who want to add to this effort , who want to be able to be part of a provision going forward in the longer term , to be able to provide a great place for children to be . we want to give parents , who we are asking— . let 's think about it , in these worst of times , we 're asking parents to leave their children so that they can go and do essential work , and some of that essential work is putting themselves at risk , potentially . and we want to give those parents confidence that , when they leave their child with us , that child will receive something really worthwhile , and they can direct all of their attention to doing their job . lynne neagle am: just before you— . janet , have you got a supplementary on schools now , not on early years settings ? janet finch-saunders am: i lost the signal before , so it 's a little bit confusing at this end , so bear with me . just in terms of the closure of schools , i have been asked by teachers what does new purpose—you may have covered it , but bear in mind [ inaudible . ] —mean in practice . and also , they 're already asking what will next— ? i know you said earlier that next week could look and probably will look significantly different than this week , but what can they expect to be happening next week in terms of this new purpose work ? lynne neagle am: we 've covered that , janet . kirsty williams am: first of all , janet , i just want to say thank you very much for your kind comments . that 's really , really kind of you . we will be sending a letter today to clarify those positions . so , each school will receive letters today about the expectations of schools next week . lynne neagle am: i think you 're having trouble hearing us , are n't you , so i think— ? janet finch-saunders am: no , i heard that loud and clear . lynne neagle am: but i think you missed the earlier comments , when we went into some detail on the new purpose of schools . so , i 'm sorry about that ; we are having some problems with the connection . janet finch-saunders am: yes , we could n't get a signal . lynne neagle am: dawn . dawn bowden am: just in relation to special schools and how they will fit into this new purpose arrangement . kirsty williams am: yes , they 're absolutely central to that planning . we know , again , that some of these children are our most vulnerable and they are some of our most pressurised families . therefore , the same situation that we 've just described for maintained schools also applies to special schools . we 'll be having discussions about what arrangements can be made for those children within their own usual settings . in some cases , that may not be possible . so , again , already local authorities are making different provision . can i give a shout out to the work of rhondda cynon taf in this regard , who are already doing some excellent work with regard to how they can keep in touch with their children who usually would attend their special schools . but , again , steve can give more detail . steve davies: i think special schools have already been hit by this challenge , because a significant proportion of their children , because of their conditions , have not been coming to school , they 've been isolated . but the principle we 've used there is , actually , even if it 's a minority of children who go to those schools and are vulnerable , they deserve and need that support through the school . so , we would expect that to function with the focus on vulnerable children . but similarly , even in special schools , there will be children whose parents will be key workers , so we would expect them to apply that same principle . just quickly in response to the earlier question , while we may bring some groups of children into separate schools , we ’ ll have to continue with the principle of keeping social distance and any provision for a child in a special school in a different setting would be unlikely , given the nature of the special school , so we would look to cater for that within the original school . dawn bowden am: just a couple more questions from me . it ’ s likely , because i know it has already happened , that some schools might actually close before monday . some schools have already partially closed . are you quite happy that headteachers still have the discretion to do that , if they feel that ’ s the right thing to do ? kirsty williams am: in this situation , the discretion of the head still remains . as i said , we will be communicating with all schools today about our expectations , if at all possible , to have schools open for staff to do some of this planning and to be able to respond to these priority needs that we 've just talked about . steve davies: the rationale of headteachers for closing schools up to now has been that they ca n't cope with the safety of the children . i think , moving forward , it 's unlikely that that would be a rationale that headteachers would want to use for not engaging and planning for the future . dawn bowden am: we 're only talking about one more day , now , anyway , are n't we ? so , just in terms of confirmed cases in schools , is your view at this stage that , if there is a confirmed case in a school , once that school has been deep-cleaned , it can reopen again ? kirsty williams am: if we had a confirmed case in a school , then all the usual mechanisms arranged by public health wales would kick in at that point . dawn bowden am: okay . and my final question is in relation to the position of early years and childcare settings . i know that kind of crosses over into somebody else 's portfolio as well , but i think we know that . certainly what i 've seen , and i 'm sure this is true elsewhere as well , we 've seen nurseries closing down because the parents are actually taking the children out of those nurseries . i 've got one in particular , there are kids from the ages of 6 to 12 years in there , and the parents are taking them out . they 've got 30 staff there , catering for 200 children and no children to care for and the organisation , at this stage , is unable to claim on their insurance for the ongoing payment of those staff wages . is there any advice that we can give to people in that situation at this stage ? kirsty williams am: sure . as you say , many of these settings are businesses—people 's businesses and they play a hugely important role and it 's a very worrying time for them . we have said that we will continue to pay for childcare , delivered under the childcare offer even when a child is unable , or a parent is unwilling , to take up that place . so , if that setting is receiving a childcare payment from the welsh government as part of our childcare offer , that will be paid , regardless of whether that child attends or not . and i know that we 're also working with local authorities to ensure a similar position on flying start childcare and early education . so , that payment will be made , regardless of whether a child is attending . it 's also important that childcare settings will be able to apply for the various packages of support that are being made available by my colleague , ken skates . lynne neagle am: hefin , then janet . hefin david am: yes , i 'd just like to turn that around from the parents ' point of view . with schools closing , there are a lot of parents then losing 10 hours of free childcare , but from a settings point of view , they 'll continue to be able to receive , for the time being , the nursery care . kirsty williams am: yes , so the decision that has been taken by my colleague , julie morgan , is that settings should stay open at the moment unless public health changes . that 's being kept under constant review on public health . again , the issue is that we know that that childcare is vital to many families , especially—and we 're particularly concerned about those individuals who are trying to help us overcome and solve these problems . if you have any specific questions about that , we 'll be happy to take them back to julie morgan . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: is this the cylch question ? lynne neagle am: yes , please . janet finch-saunders am: sorry , thank you . yes , just basically , cylch meithrin , there are concerns— [ interruption . ] lynne neagle am: we 've lost janet . we 'll come back to her . kirsty williams am: i think if the issue is about funding for cylch meithrin , these are not normal circumstances . as a welsh government , we will take every step to provide continuity of funding , if at all possible . we will overcome this , and when we overcome this situation we find ourselves in , we will need those childcare settings , we will need those private businesses and we will need our cylch meithrin to be there to respond and to be able to go on doing the job that they usually do for us . and if there is any way that we can , as a government , ensure that that happens by carrying on funding things , even if they are not able to run , all usual— [ inaudible . ] — around service-level agreements are off . i 'm not setting the precedent—let me make that absolutely clear . [ laughter . ] but , you know , we will not undermine businesses and voluntary provision like cylch by withdrawing welsh government funding . i hope i 've been clear . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you for that . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , kirsty . lynne neagle am: if we can move on to talk about exams , obviously you made the announcement yesterday . i completely understand that everything is a very fast-moving situation , but , as you know , there are a lot of questions that people have about young people who 've put a lot of work in . are you able to tell us any more today ? in particular , have you got any idea about timescales now for setting out what the approach will be to handling the lack of summer exams ? kirsty williams am: yes , it is a devastating decision to have to have been taken , but i have done so on the very , very clear and unambiguous advice from qualifications wales . i met with qualifications wales and the wjec yesterday . what was most important to them was that i made an early decision and i did not equivocate on what would happen for the exams . i was able to make an informal decision at that meeting , and then , of course , there is a formal process that we have to go through . that , now , allows qualifications wales and the exam board to operationalise that decision , and they will be communicating with schools as quickly as possible about what schools will need to do to ensure that the systems that they will now put in place can work . we are trying , as far as we can , as i understand it , to be able to mirror as closely as possible the usual results day , for instance . it might not be possible , because , of course , we 're dealing with a situation that requires human beings to be involved in it , and those human beings could find themselves unwell . so , our best attempts will be to maintain the normal rhythm of an exams day in august , but that has to be caveated by the fact that we 're dealing with difficult circumstances . but , the wjec and qualifications wales will be making urgent communications to exam centres to explain what will need to happen next . lynne neagle am: okay . janet , you had a question on this . janet finch-saunders am: yes , i think i raised it yesterday , kirsty , but you were receiving loads of questions . i 'd just ask for some further clarification about coursework , because only 30 per cent of that is done . years 11 and 13 , typically , in my case they 're what 's been raised with me—do you have any advice for them ? kirsty williams am: okay , so , all exams are cancelled , but year 11 and year 13 will be given a grade—i think that 's a distinction that people need to be aware of . that is because those years and those grades are gateway qualifications , and they are points of movement in the education system . so , it 's really important for those students that they are not disadvantaged in any way by not being able to receive a grade that helps them to make a decision as a qualifying step into what they will do next , whether that be university , whether that be a degree apprenticeship or whether that be going into sixth form , into a college , into an apprenticeship or into some work-based learning opportunities . that 's why we have to focus on those children , because for them , it is absolutely critical that we do . we are at an advantage in wales , can i say ? because of the nature of our examination system , those students already have a lot of externally assessed work that we can use as a basis to move forward on . because we 've kept our as-levels , we have got that data . because we have a gcse system— . our year 11s , if they 're doing triple science , they 've already done 40 per cent of their paper , so we 're very fortunate . because of the structures that we have got in our qualification system , there is already lots and lots of externally-verified work that we can use , alongside , potentially , teacher evaluation of students as well . and i think that 's really important . we ’ re starting from a better base than simply having none of that externally-verified data . what will also be important is that these children have confidence in those qualifications , and so we will be looking at a modulated arrangement within wales , and i know that qualifications wales are discussing with their counterparts across the uk a modulated system across the uk . so , actually , we can make sure that our standards are maintained by actually having that modulation across the uk . so , we know that those children never have to worry about the rigour that has gone into determining that grade . so , they can have real confidence . lynne neagle am: okay . helen mary . helen mary jones am: thank you . a supplementary question that might feed into that moderation . you 'll know that the national union of students has suggested that black and minority ethnic children and children from the working class , on the whole , do n't do as well , in terms of their assessment by their own teachers . i do n't know what their evidence is for that . we also know , of course , that boys tend to do better in exams , and girls tend to do better at coursework , for whatever reason that is . so , just to ask you at this early stage to build in those considerations around potential unconscious bias into that overall system that you 're talking about . and , of course , you are right to say that , because we have got some elements of external moderation here , those factors may be less for us in wales than they might for colleagues in england . kirsty williams am: yes , i think we are starting at a different base , thank goodness . so , you 're quite right . as i said , students will have done unit 1 papers last year if they 're gcse students . dare i say it , some might even have done early entry . so , we still have elements of coursework that are externally verified . so , children might well have done lots of oral exams in their english and in their welsh language . so , we have lots of pieces of work that will have been externally verified . i certainly will ensure that these concerns are passed on . i 'm sure that qualifications wales are thinking about it . i have every confidence that they and the wjec will come up with a very comprehensive way of establishing those grades , but i have to say , in some ways , i have to step back now , because you would not expect me , in normal circumstances , to dictate to the wjec how much percentage goes for that , and how much percentage is allocated for that ; that would not be appropriate for a minister . my job is to make the decision on the examinations on the basis of having confidence that what can be put in place is fair and is equitable , and i have confidence that that will be the case . helen mary jones am: thank you . lynne neagle am: suzy . suzy davies am: a few things from me . one is , obviously , pupils are being asked to work at home as well now , some of whom will be doing gcse and a-level courses . so , there 's just a question , generally , from me— because we 're encouraging these kids to carry on working—how that will be accommodated by qualifications wales , i guess , in this modulation process . it may be that your at-home work will be of a higher standard or a lower standard than a teacher would be expecting . secondly , you mentioned the as-levels , of course , as being of value at the moment , but we 've got people in year 12 who now wo n't be doing their ass . is there any steer at this stage about what they will be expected to do ? will they be doing two sets of exams next year , for example ? or is as just off the table ? in which case , how are the a2s going to be calculated in due course ? and then , finally from me , we do have some vocational qualifications that are up for examination as well—your btecs , and i think it 's the association of accounting technicians , which is a lot of computer-based learning—which is due to be examined within three weeks . those aren ’ t a-levels or gcses . i appreciate that you may not have the answer just at the moment , but are they off as well is the question , i guess ? kirsty williams am: with regard to as-levels—no final decision has been made for exactly how those students will be treated . there are a range of options that could be used , but again , we will want to be thinking about student well-being , fairness and equity in that regard , and i will update members as soon as i have received definitive advice from qualifications wales around that , and that has n't happened yet . with regard to other types of qualifications , as you will be aware , the vast majority of btecs is a modular , continually-assessed piece of work , and we would have every expectation that btecs will be able to be awarded , but clearly , those conversations are with awarding bodies—they tend to be uk awarding bodies , rather then necessarily our wjec exam board—and those conversations are ongoing . but i have every expectation that those qualifications will be awarded and , of course , because of their nature there 's even more evidence of continued assessment . huw , i do n't know if there 's anything else that you would like to add about those types of qualifications . huw morris: no . i think you 've covered most of it . i do n't have a definitive answer for the att qualification , but we can look into that and come back to you . suzy davies am: well , i 've just had a constituent ask , so that would be very helpful . and homeworking— kirsty williams am: homeworking , right . suzy davies am: —is that going to count towards the assessments , overall assessments ? kirsty williams am: well , potentially , as i said . i do n't know the exact elements . what will be absolutely necessary is that qualifications wales and the wjec will be able to give absolute clarity and simplicity around how those grades will be arrived at , because parents , teachers and students will want to know that , and my expectation is on them to be able to clearly communicate what elements will and will not be taken into consideration when awarding those grades . suzy davies am: that 's great . at least we covered it . thank you , minister—thank you , kirsty . lynne neagle am: and , just before we move on , have the universities across the uk indicated that they are content with this approach going forward—content to accept students on this basis ? kirsty williams am: certainly . there have been discussions with universities and ucas , of course , that this also has a bearing on . one of the— . and the views of university and how university terms might be impacted is one of the ways and one of the reasons that we 've factored in to making these decisions . those discussions with universities are ongoing , are n't they , huw ? huw morris: yes . so , we 've been in regular conversation with universities wales and through them with universities uk and we 've received every indication that the approach that 's been adopted here has been welcomed by the institutions . those conversations will continue as we work through the practicalities of how the gradings that are awarded are going to feed through into university admissions decisions and enrolment . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . well , we 've got some questions now from suzy on the potential closures of colleges and universities . suzy davies am: okay . well , it 's a very general question , really . i appreciate you 've already indicated there are lots of ongoing conversations , but my understanding is whether colleges or universities close is pretty much still at their own discretion . we 're going to be asking some questions on emergency legislation shortly , which may impact on the answer you can give today , but what sort of conversations are you having with fe and he at the moment about how they decide ? kirsty williams am: well , you 're absolutely right . as we often say in this committee , universities are autonomous institutions—a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question . universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them . colleges are in a similar position , looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods , and the bill , potentially , does give us more powers of intervention in both the fe and the he sector . suzy davies am: i might ask you about that in a minute , because i do n't even know what the bill says yet . kirsty williams am: huw , i do n't know if there 's anything you want to add . huw morris: no—just to confirm what 's been said and also to add in that independent training providers , similarly autonomous , like colleges and universities , have been moving in the same direction . we 've been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that 's been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies . we 've got consistency in the approach and a common desire , and investment in moving towards online support for students . suzy davies am: and there 's still this safety net idea . certainly , colleges have indicated , as with schools , that , for the most vulnerable learners , they 'll have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis . huw morris: that 's my understanding , yes , and , again , we 've been in regular conversation with them about that . my understanding is that they 're going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions . suzy davies am: that 's fair enough . and , presumably , education maintenance allowance will still be paid . kirsty williams am: yes . arrangements have been made to ensure that ema continues to be paid to all students who are entitled . suzy davies am: that 's right . you indicated that any welsh government support 's going to stay , whatever the circumstances are—in your portfolio . kirsty williams am: yes . i 'm doing my best , but it 's an absolute yes on the ema . there will be no disruption to ema . suzy davies am: okay . you might get some further questions on he and fe . lynne neagle am: yes . we 've got some further questions , indeed , from helen mary and then hefin . helen mary jones am: now or in a bit ? lynne neagle am: yes . helen mary jones am: just further to ema , of course , at the moment , that has an attendance qualification , does n't it ? and you do n't get your ema if you do n't turn up . should we take from your last answer that that attendance qualification does n't apply anymore ? kirsty williams am: yes . they ca n't turn up if the institution is not open , and that 's not their fault . helen mary jones am: no , but that is something that 's been a worry , so that 's really encouraging to hear . thinking about students in higher education , can you give an assurance that student maintenance payments will continue as normal ? is that the intention ? kirsty williams am: yes . helen mary jones am: that 's really good to hear . and have you given any special ministerial instruction to student finance wales on processing applications for support or changes of circumstances , or is that something that 's kind of ongoing at the moment ? kirsty williams am: those conversations are ongoing with the student loans company . as i said , we anticipate no disruption to— . we do n't anticipate any change in the approach to students as a result of this . individual student circumstances could well change and our expectation would be that the student loans company would respond to that . all i would say is , just to remind people : people who work for the student loans company are no more able to resist this disease than anybody else . there will undoubtedly in some cases be really practical challenges to service delivery , simply because organisations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they are reacting to social-distancing messages from the government . so , i think we just need to bear that in mind : that these organisations are doing their best , but , if they are badly affected by staff numbers being off because of the virus , then i hope people will give them due consideration . helen mary jones am: yes , that makes sense , of course , because we 've been told that universities wo n't be able to entirely close , because there will be students who ca n't go home— kirsty williams am: it is their home . helen mary jones am: —overseas students , for example . what discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students ' basic needs are met , that there 's still food , shelter , whatever they need ? kirsty williams am: well , obviously , universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances , and every conversation that huw 's been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that . huw morris: we instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease , not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in china and other parts of south-east asia . and so , as the disease has progressed , we 've seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the uk , and i am assured that the universities here in wales have got processes in place that support those learners . helen mary jones am: that 's really helpful . and on this specifically—last question from me— have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees , should the academic year not be completed ? huw morris: so , as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online , clearly , there are lessons that will need to be taken on board . there are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs . the intention in all of these institutions is that they will complete their course of study . there are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed . failing those institutional mechanisms , there is a uk-wide system through the office of the independent adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have . so , we 're confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs . lynne neagle am: okay . suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: no , mr morris has answered my question . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've got a couple more questions now on vulnerable learners . i 've got helen mary , then hefin . helen mary jones am: i think , chair , the minister has already answered what the— . but thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and well-being of staff and learners across a range of educational settings , or , indeed , young people who ca n't access educational settings , what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and well-being might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone ? kirsty williams am: yes , that is correct . so , our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure—which i think , if we 're honest , we have to acknowledge is what we 're looking at—we would expect school staff—well-being staff , for instance in school—to be doing check-ins—phone check-ins , potentially , or facetime check-ins , with students , just to keep in touch with them as we go forward . we 'll be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available—so , for instance , meic website—so , looking to use a variety of platforms . we do , of course , have the formal nhs counselling services . i 'm concerned , of course , that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school . we know that , and we 're just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists—online counselling tools that children already use because they do n't want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor . they 're already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue , as far as possible , those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered , and their worries . i think we have to remember that this is a really worrying time for children and young people . one of the reasons , again , that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible—and teachers have been working so hard to do that—is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we 've needed and wanted to maintain . children will have worries about their own health ; they 'll have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents ; they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves . so , we need to understand , and i think we will also have to recognise , that this support will have to be ongoing once we 're back to normal , and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience . they are incredibly resilient , and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages . they are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole 'washing your hands ' and things like that than even adults have been . so , they are incredibly resilient , but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them . helen mary jones am: can i just— ? just a supplementary to that—you 've mentioned already , kirsty , the importance of youth services , and , particularly thinking voluntarily youth services , you 've given the commitment , when were talking about mudiad ysgolion meithrin earlier , that services that are part-funded by grants through the welsh government , for example , thinking of the national youth voluntary service—will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well ? obviously , local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open , but , in terms of the direct support from welsh government , can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time ? kirsty williams am: no formal decision has been made , but if people are in receipt of a government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public— helen mary jones am: because it 's not safe . kirsty williams am: —because it 's not safe to do so , i do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying , 'we 'll have our money back , thank you very much . ' lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . helen mary jones am: that will make a lot of people happy , thank you . [ laughter . ] kirsty williams am: as i said , we are facing unprecedented circumstances . the normal rules of engagement have to change and , those organisations , we 'll need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal , and we would n't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that . our call to the youth service is a call to arms , though . when we 're trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for front-line staff children , they have a valuable role to play and i know that local government and the council for wales of voluntary youth services are already in discussion about how youth services— . many of our youth services work on an outreach basis . those traditional youth clubs , because of austerity , are not necessarily there anymore , so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work , and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier . helen mary jones am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin , briefly , and then we 're going to take one final question from suzy on emergency legislation . hefin david am: all right . i 'll declare an interest as a parent of a child with additional learning needs , although the question i 'm about to ask does n't reflect her interests . additional learning needs pupils who are waiting outcomes of referrals—if they 're currently waiting an outcome of a referral , will that process will be suspended or will it continue as normal ? and , if it is suspended , will it pick up where it left off from this point ? kirsty williams am: i think we have to recognise that the ability to deliver business as usual has been massively compromised . i 'm sure people will try and continue to do their normal activities and their normal jobs , but that might not be possible . i will have to check that , hefin , to be honest . i do n't want to give you any false assurance if , actually , the intelligence on the ground is that that simply will not be able to happen . but we don't— hefin david am: can we have a clear line on that ? kirsty williams am: we do n't want to jeopardise anybody , but as i said , some of the normal services are simply not available as everybody turns their attention to trying to respond to the pandemic . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . final question—because i know that the minister 's got a lot of things that she needs to get on with—from suzy on emergency legislation . suzy davies am: i 'm not going to ask you if you 'll use any powers you get under the emergency legislation , but are you able to give us some indication of what they might be ? kirsty williams am: sure . for instance , the bill will provide welsh ministers with powers to temporarily close schools or other educational institutions , childcare premises ; powers to give temporary continuity direction—so , actually , the other way around , force things to be open—and to be able to direct resources . so , that includes , as i said , i could direct something to stay open if that institution was trying to close down . the powers also give flexibility to maybe be able to direct staff to other institutions that they would not normally work in , if that was part of our resilience needs . we 'd also be looking at , for instance , relaxing requirements around ratios in childcare settings , or we might be wanting to do things around food . so , obviously , we have rules around the level of nutrition that schools should be giving their children . if there is a continuing role for schools in providing food , we might have to be a bit more flexible about what that might look like . so , those kinds of flexibilities—to be able to suspend things , direct things—that we would not normally have in normal circumstances . suzy davies am: okay . and just to finish this one off—you may not be able to answer this one , in all fairness—in those situations where it 's the government who says 'no ' to various things , does that then help people in the situation of dawn 's nursery , and insurance claims suddenly become more likely ? kirsty williams am: i 'm not an expert on insurance , and i do n't know if anybody here can help me . but what my understanding is , is that even where government has given a direction that does not necessarily mean that you will be covered by your insurance . what we 're finding in the private sector is that insurance companies are not paying out , because even when a government has directed it , they do not regard this as a disruption to business . so , the insurance industry is not my area of expertise . suzy davies am: no , no , i accept that . kirsty williams am: it 's not my area of expertise , but from what i understand from discussions around the cabinet table , this is particularly problematic . let me give you an example about how we 've been trying to overcome some of this—it feels like an awfully long time ago now— you 'll be aware that we gave directions earlier around cancellation of school trips abroad . trying to make sure that that direction came from the foreign and commonwealth office , rather than the department for education was a real battle , because again there were fears that , unless that advice came from the foreign and commonwealth office , insurance would not kick in , and that was a two-day discussion . suzy davies am: okay . this is helpful to know , actually . kirsty williams am: so , these are the kinds of things that we 're grappling with . but , as i said , thinking about it , that was only last week , but it feels like an aeon ago . suzy davies am: i 'm not holding you to that , but it helps us manage the questions we get asked . kirsty williams am: yes , but as i said , insurance is not my area of expertise . suzy davies am: no , but thank you for answering . lynne neagle am: okay . well , we 've come to the end of our time . can i thank you for attending this morning , and your officials ? we do recognise what an incredibly challenging time this is , and we 'd like to place on record our thanks to all of you for the work that you 're doing to try and see us through this crisis . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . thank you again , all of you , for your attendance . item 3 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

according to kirsty , all exams were cancelled , but year 11 and 13 would be given a grade . that was because those years and those grades were gateway qualifications , and they were points of movement in the education system . therefore , it was really important for those students that they were not disadvantaged in any way by not being able to receive a grade that helps them to make a decision as a qualifying step into what they would do next . actually , they could make sure that their standards were maintained by actually having that modulation across that uk . so , the children could have real confidence .

what 's specific about the elements of coursework that were externally verified ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . i 've received apologies for absence from siân gwenllian , and i 'm very pleased to welcome helen mary jones , who is substituting for siân today . can i ask whether members want to declare any interests , please ? can i just , then , place on record that i have got a son who was about to do a-levels , so is affected by the exam decision ? we 'll move on , then , to our substantive item today , which is an evidence session with the welsh government around the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on education in wales . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams , minister for education ; steve davies , who is director of the education directorate ; huw morris , who is the group director , skills , higher education and lifelong learning ; and rob orford , who is the chief scientific adviser for health . thank you all for coming . we know that this is a really difficult and pressurised time for everyone , and we appreciate your attendance . minister , i understand you wanted to make an opening statement today . kirsty williams am: yes , if that 's okay , chair . as you know , it 's not usually my practice to do that , but i think it is important today . covid-19 coronavirus is one of the most significant issues that the welsh government and the people of wales have dealt with in recent times . dealing with the impacts of this pandemic is extremely challenging . things are changing on an hourly basis , and we have to make decisions quickly to ensure public safety . but i would like to assure you that our aim , and my aim , and my main concern as the education minister is to protect all staff and pupils in our schools and other educational settings . but we also have a duty to ensure continuing and continuity of education . public health is clearly the priority here , but that does not change our belief that no child should miss out on any education , unless absolutely necessary . so , the decision to close all schools from tomorrow for statutory education provision was not taken lightly , but i believe it was necessary , given the advice and recommendations that we had received from a public health perspective and the situation that was developing on the ground . from next week , schools will have a new purpose . they will help support those most in need , including people involved in the immediate response to the coronavirus outbreak , and i 'm working with my colleagues in the cabinet , with government officials and our partners in local government to develop and finalise these plans . the key areas that we 're looking at are supporting and safeguarding the vulnerable and ensuring continuity of learning . this includes all of those who benefit from free school meals and children with additional learning needs . i can confirm that all maintained schools in wales already have access to a range of digital tools that can support distance learning through the world-class hwb digital learning platform , including virtual classrooms and video-conferencing facilities . a guide on what tools are available and how schools can use them has been developed and is being promoted widely . yesterday , i announced that , whilst there are no easy choices , we have agreed that the best way forward is not to proceed with the summer exam series . learners due to sit these exams will be awarded a fair grade to recognise their work , drawing on a range of information that is available , and i will announce further details shortly , but i felt it necessary to give early certainty to students and to staff . i would like to put on record my thanks to everyone working in education settings for the hard work that they have put in over the last few months in dealing with the virus and ensuring that pupils have been able to continue to learn . we need to continue to do this work together , as we face the continuing challenges posed by the coronavirus . diolch yn fawr . lynne neagle am: thank you very much , minister , for that statement . we 'll go to questions from members now , and i 've got some questions from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . can i thank you , kirsty , for your statement and the really difficult decisions that you 've been having to make ? you 've already indicated in your statement this morning that these decisions are not taken lightly , and we understand that that is the case across government . so , thank you for what you 've been doing . you 've outlined a little bit further there in your statement to us this morning about the new purpose . i take from what you 're saying that you have n't really developed that yet in terms of exactly what that is going to look like . you 've talked about the children of key workers , free school meals , additional learning needs . is there anything else you can tell us about that at the moment and how you might staff the schools in those particular areas ? kirsty williams am: thank you , dawn . so , you're absolutely right , our priority now is to operationalise , with colleagues in local government and schools , a practical response . and i have to say , we 're working to timescales that i would have hoped to have avoided , but given the fact that we 're having to make these decisions quite quickly , i hope that you will understand that perhaps where we start on monday might change when we have more time and more opportunities to develop programmes going forward . steve will be able to give you more details of the practical work that has already been going on , but our expectation will be that schools will be playing an important part in providing safe and secure places for children of those on the front-line response to dealing with the coronavirus to attend , and work is already under way with local authorities and individual schools on what that will look like for the emergency situation on monday . our other priority is indeed free school meals , and , again , where we eventually end up might be a different place to where we are on monday . again , we 're responding to the emergency situation that there will be families that were expecting a free school meal on monday , and , again , individual schools and local authorities are developing those plans at pace to be able to provide an emergency response as we work out a longer term plan to deal with the situation . the same thing also goes for additional learning needs , and attending to the needs of that particular group of learners . so , those conversations began a few days ago . i had the opportunity to meet with the first minister and andrew morgan , the leader of the welsh local government association , yesterday to talk about what local government could do , and what they were already doing . those plans in some places are already quite developed , and are now working at pace , but i hope you will understand that where we start on monday is the emergency response , and that work will develop as we go forward . but , steve , perhaps you could— ? because steve was the one making all those phone calls and doing the practical operational stuff , rather than me . steve . steve davies: in short , the new purpose is to meet the needs of particular groups of children and young people . in some cases , some of the response to supporting free school meals , in the short term in particular , we may use the schools as part of that , and i 'm certain that will happen in some cases . the second area is looking at how we support the children of key workers . now , there is still work to be done on identifying exactly the categories of key workers , but i think it 's really encouraging that in my discussions yesterday—i spoke with all 22 directors of education , and the examples we 're picking up in their work with schools is they 're already ahead of the curve in working with schools . so , schools have identified the number of children with health workers . it will grow , and we will need to look at that range . then , the third area is vulnerable children . they 're vulnerable sometimes in terms of education other than at school , vulnerable in terms of mental health , and for those children , as well as having an experience that we want to be planned , some have compared it to a snow day , particularly on monday , when you 're putting something together in the short term , but it will not be a formal curriculum that those children would normally go through . so , the range of activities—some will be focused on educational activities , some will be cultural , some will be sporting , and that plan will be developed on the basis of the age range of children , which in some cases may go from extremely young children up to those at the age of 16 in our all-through schools , but there will be a planned set of activities to cater for those children . what we are doing currently—i have staff back at cathays park who are in touch and working with directors of education to ensure that schools over the next two days will have been able to identify , at least at the earlier stage , in terms of health workers , the type and numbers of people . there are already schools who have informed us , and local authorities , of their plans for these activities to be starting next week , which is quite amazing , actually , given where we are . but we are expecting , and we 're writing to schools today , that during the course of next week , headteachers to be in schools , and with their staff , taking into consideration the health guidance as to which staff should or should not be in , and in that period from next monday through the two-week period , to easter , we expect staff to be both planning for delivery post easter , but also , as i said , building on and reflecting the good practice that 's already in place for schools that have engaged in activities , and i 'm sure a number of them will be inviting and enabling those children to come in on monday . so , monday will be a challenge for some , and not all will be delivering it , but we will be working so that we can get as much as possible delivered for those groups over the next two weeks , and particularly to have resilient programmes post easter for the groups of children in those three categories that i said . dawn bowden am: those that have been identified . can i just clarify one thing ? one of the identified vulnerable groups would clearly be children on the at-risk register . they would be included . steve davies: yes , definitely . vulnerable children , yes . kirsty williams am: in our discussions , we have asked local government to be working with the social services departments and individual schools to identify those children who may be in that situation . we know that , for some children , being at school is part of their safeguarding arrangements , and obviously we will need to be able to respond to those needs . steve davies: i wrote specifically yesterday to all directors of education to be assured that , for those children , the register is up to date and the plans are in place . i 'm working with albert heaney my colleague , the director for social services , who is meeting with the 22 directors of social services today to look to ensure that we are joined up in ensuring none of these children fall through the gap . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got a supplementary from hefin , and then suzy . hefin david am: a very quick and simple question : how are you going to communicate this to parents ? there 's a bigger picture and it 's changing all the time , as you said . the welsh government have a route to communication . the most helpful thing i 've seen is that public health wales have a single website with information regarding the wider issue of the virus . how will this then be cascaded to schools , because there 's obviously a time lag ? so , have you considered how this is going to be communicated directly to parents ? kirsty williams am: we 're using all of our platforms of communication to get these messages across . so , we 're using the more informal methods of communication , but are relying on a systematic approach via individual directors and through to individual schools . welsh government already has a dedicated website page with all of the relevant information about coronavirus . we 're looking , as quickly as we can , to have a frequently asked education questions page that we can update . understandably , people are communicating to us on twitter asking questions . it is impossible for the communications team here to be able to respond individually to every single person that is sending facebook messages and sending tweets , so the best way we can do that is to collate the types of questions people are asking and then to be able to have a frequently updated question and answer page to try to respond to that . with regard to parents , for instance , we 're aware of schools that have already sent a questionnaire out last night to parents saying , 'do you consider yourself to be a key worker ? do you work in the nhs ? please let us know by tomorrow so we can put arrangements in place for your children . ' so , schools are already taking the initiative and having those conversations with parents about what their needs will be . and , as i said , hefin , will it be perfect on monday ? no . it wo n't be perfect by monday , because we 're working to such constrained timescales . but we will continue to build that resilience . we also have to think about systems that look at what might the epidemic do and have systems of resilience that may work next week , given the situation we find ourselves in with public health advice at the moment . but that public health advice may change . therefore , have we got a system that will be resilient in those circumstances ? these are some of the challenges that we 're having to grapple with . so , as i said , what happens on monday might look very different to where we are if schools are still off in may . so , i hope people will understand that we are working in those kinds of scenarios . lynne neagle am: suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: yes , just on this question of vulnerable children , i 'm just wondering how much discretion teachers are going to have in including individual children who may not be obviously under social services ' care or on a risk register or whatever . teachers know their pupils and , very sensitively , they could include people who may not be obviously in need . kirsty williams am: we would absolutely respect the professional judgment of individual headteachers to be able to have those conversations with their directors . as you said , quite rightly , they are the individuals who know their children best and know which children , perhaps , will need this extra support . we will put no constraints on those teachers trying to do that work . suzy davies am: okay . the second part of my question is : there were going to be easter holidays anyway , were n't there ? what was going to happen about free-school-meal children during that period ? has that gone out of the window now , the normal holiday provision for children ? because that 's not there normally , is it , except in separate— kirsty williams am: we do find ourselves in a strange situation . my understanding is what we 're trying to work to is that we would have ongoing provision and not to make some strange , 'you get this for two weeks , then you do n't get it for two weeks , and then you 're back in . ' my understanding is , in england , that is what they 're going to do . we 're trying to create a system where it will be seamless and it will not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays . it wo n't matter to those nurses and doctors who will need to be in work during those weeks . we 're trying to create a system that will run uniformly . that 's our policy goal at the moment . lynne neagle am: helen mary . helen mary jones am: just briefly , building on suzy 's question , one particular group of children and young people that i hope will be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category is young carers . for some of them , they may not be able to come into school because the people they 're caring for may have to be excluded because of their conditions . but i think that , for other young carers , coming to school is an absolute lifeline , because they 're working at home . so , i do n't know if it 's appropriate for you to specifically mention those in discussions with local authorities , but it 's a group of young people who , again , may not be vulnerable in other ways , but because of their caring responsibilities they may need school . and the other group—and this , i suppose , goes back to suzy 's point about teachers knowing their young people—is the children who may be living in situations where they 're at risk of witnessing domestic abuse . again , these may very well not be children who are in any formal contact with social services , but being at home may be really not a good place for them to be . so , again , i 'd put in an appeal for that to be something that perhaps can be raised with schools . if a teacher is worried about what a child 's circumstances are like at home , whether they can be , as you said , kirsty , included as one of the— . they may not be formally identified , but if the teacher knows that they 're at risk , or there is an instinct that they 're at risk , they might be able to be included in children who are allowed to take advantage of this special provision you 're making at this difficult time . kirsty williams am: we will certainly raise those issues . we have to do that in the context of what is deliverable , and we also have to do that in the context of the public health advice that we are receiving as well . one of the reasons why schools are closing is to help manage this disease . we know that the ability for school closures to make a contribution to that diminishes if we have significant children in school still . so , we will take these issues into consideration , but remembering this is part of an epidemic mitigation plan . rob is the expert on that , not me . rob orford: yes , absolutely . this is a rapidly-evolving problem and the scale is something that we have n't seen in 100 years , and so we 're having to evolve and iterate things as we go . next week , i think , will look different to this week . so , it kind of is what it is . we 've all got a role to play , and schools certainly have a significant role to play in breaking those chains of transmission . areas that we 're worried about are displacement activities . if we close the schools , then people collect at others ' houses . we need to send a really clear message that you 're all part of the solution , and the things that you do by distancing yourselves from your friends and your family are really important for us to get on top of this outbreak . the more that we can do that , the easier it will be when we go forward . helen mary jones am: i 'm sure that that 's true , but i 'm sure that we would n't be wanting a child who 's in a very pressured environment with perhaps a very difficult relationship between mum and dad— . it may be very important for those children to be out of that for some of the time . hopefully , we 're talking about relatively small numbers , but i just— . kirsty williams am: we will look at vulnerability in a holistic way . lynne neagle am: janet , you had a supplementary . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair , and good morning , minister , and your team . can i just put on record my thanks for all that you 're having to endure at this moment ? i think it 's fair to say you have the support of assembly members and , indeed , our communities . now , the question i have : if cylch meithrin have to close , where will they get money from to pay their staff ? because , currently , thankfully , there 's support for businesses . lynne neagle am: janet , we 're not doing cylch meithrin at the moment ; we are sticking with schools , as we discussed in advance . dawn . dawn bowden am: can i just get some clarity , steve , around what you were saying in terms of next week ? because i think the practical applications of this—and i understand that you do n't know all of this yet , i understand that—the practical applications are what is coming to us , obviously , with constituents saying , 'well , what 's going to happen to that ? ' just so that i can be clear , are you saying that , at this stage , every headteacher will be in school on monday , as will all their staff ? steve davies: within the scope of the guidance in terms of their health , the expectation—and this will be conveyed in letters by the minister today , to be made clear—is that they are closing for the majority of pupils , but our expectation within the guidance is that the headteacher with their staff will be coming in ; for some to start the delivery of what we just described , but that will probably be small numbers , but more importantly to plan to ensure that , after the formal easter period , which is school holidays , the schools are geared to cater for the range of pupils that we 've been discussing . dawn bowden am: so , would you anticipate—again , i know this is all a bit 'if and when ' , and it depends on the changing nature of the advice , but from what you 're saying , i think we can probably anticipate that , as we go forward , there will probably be fewer schools opening and operable—that we may be moving those children on to fewer sites . would that possibly— ? kirsty williams am: that is a potential . so , we already know that one of our local authorities already has identified a strategic pattern of schools that they will want to operate in this way . that local authority has already chosen those locations , and is already having communications with how they will then staff those centres . so , that could well— . that , i expect , in the longer term , will be the nature of the provision that we will get to . but that 's not for us to dictate . the local authorities are best placed to understand what is the best , pragmatic use of the resources that they have available ; and of course those resources , primarily , are human beings . so , we 've talked a lot this morning in the context of teaching staff , teaching assistants , but we 're also having discussions with local authorities , and i met with the council for wales of voluntary youth services this week , to look at deploying youth workers , to look to be deploying other staff that the local authority may employ , like sports development officers . there may be cultural officers that can have something to offer . welsh government will be talking with a range of our partners who perhaps their normal activities ca n't continue at the moment , but actually have personnel who want to add to this effort , who want to be able to be part of a provision going forward in the longer term , to be able to provide a great place for children to be . we want to give parents , who we are asking— . let 's think about it , in these worst of times , we 're asking parents to leave their children so that they can go and do essential work , and some of that essential work is putting themselves at risk , potentially . and we want to give those parents confidence that , when they leave their child with us , that child will receive something really worthwhile , and they can direct all of their attention to doing their job . lynne neagle am: just before you— . janet , have you got a supplementary on schools now , not on early years settings ? janet finch-saunders am: i lost the signal before , so it 's a little bit confusing at this end , so bear with me . just in terms of the closure of schools , i have been asked by teachers what does new purpose—you may have covered it , but bear in mind [ inaudible . ] —mean in practice . and also , they 're already asking what will next— ? i know you said earlier that next week could look and probably will look significantly different than this week , but what can they expect to be happening next week in terms of this new purpose work ? lynne neagle am: we 've covered that , janet . kirsty williams am: first of all , janet , i just want to say thank you very much for your kind comments . that 's really , really kind of you . we will be sending a letter today to clarify those positions . so , each school will receive letters today about the expectations of schools next week . lynne neagle am: i think you 're having trouble hearing us , are n't you , so i think— ? janet finch-saunders am: no , i heard that loud and clear . lynne neagle am: but i think you missed the earlier comments , when we went into some detail on the new purpose of schools . so , i 'm sorry about that ; we are having some problems with the connection . janet finch-saunders am: yes , we could n't get a signal . lynne neagle am: dawn . dawn bowden am: just in relation to special schools and how they will fit into this new purpose arrangement . kirsty williams am: yes , they 're absolutely central to that planning . we know , again , that some of these children are our most vulnerable and they are some of our most pressurised families . therefore , the same situation that we 've just described for maintained schools also applies to special schools . we 'll be having discussions about what arrangements can be made for those children within their own usual settings . in some cases , that may not be possible . so , again , already local authorities are making different provision . can i give a shout out to the work of rhondda cynon taf in this regard , who are already doing some excellent work with regard to how they can keep in touch with their children who usually would attend their special schools . but , again , steve can give more detail . steve davies: i think special schools have already been hit by this challenge , because a significant proportion of their children , because of their conditions , have not been coming to school , they 've been isolated . but the principle we 've used there is , actually , even if it 's a minority of children who go to those schools and are vulnerable , they deserve and need that support through the school . so , we would expect that to function with the focus on vulnerable children . but similarly , even in special schools , there will be children whose parents will be key workers , so we would expect them to apply that same principle . just quickly in response to the earlier question , while we may bring some groups of children into separate schools , we ’ ll have to continue with the principle of keeping social distance and any provision for a child in a special school in a different setting would be unlikely , given the nature of the special school , so we would look to cater for that within the original school . dawn bowden am: just a couple more questions from me . it ’ s likely , because i know it has already happened , that some schools might actually close before monday . some schools have already partially closed . are you quite happy that headteachers still have the discretion to do that , if they feel that ’ s the right thing to do ? kirsty williams am: in this situation , the discretion of the head still remains . as i said , we will be communicating with all schools today about our expectations , if at all possible , to have schools open for staff to do some of this planning and to be able to respond to these priority needs that we 've just talked about . steve davies: the rationale of headteachers for closing schools up to now has been that they ca n't cope with the safety of the children . i think , moving forward , it 's unlikely that that would be a rationale that headteachers would want to use for not engaging and planning for the future . dawn bowden am: we 're only talking about one more day , now , anyway , are n't we ? so , just in terms of confirmed cases in schools , is your view at this stage that , if there is a confirmed case in a school , once that school has been deep-cleaned , it can reopen again ? kirsty williams am: if we had a confirmed case in a school , then all the usual mechanisms arranged by public health wales would kick in at that point . dawn bowden am: okay . and my final question is in relation to the position of early years and childcare settings . i know that kind of crosses over into somebody else 's portfolio as well , but i think we know that . certainly what i 've seen , and i 'm sure this is true elsewhere as well , we 've seen nurseries closing down because the parents are actually taking the children out of those nurseries . i 've got one in particular , there are kids from the ages of 6 to 12 years in there , and the parents are taking them out . they 've got 30 staff there , catering for 200 children and no children to care for and the organisation , at this stage , is unable to claim on their insurance for the ongoing payment of those staff wages . is there any advice that we can give to people in that situation at this stage ? kirsty williams am: sure . as you say , many of these settings are businesses—people 's businesses and they play a hugely important role and it 's a very worrying time for them . we have said that we will continue to pay for childcare , delivered under the childcare offer even when a child is unable , or a parent is unwilling , to take up that place . so , if that setting is receiving a childcare payment from the welsh government as part of our childcare offer , that will be paid , regardless of whether that child attends or not . and i know that we 're also working with local authorities to ensure a similar position on flying start childcare and early education . so , that payment will be made , regardless of whether a child is attending . it 's also important that childcare settings will be able to apply for the various packages of support that are being made available by my colleague , ken skates . lynne neagle am: hefin , then janet . hefin david am: yes , i 'd just like to turn that around from the parents ' point of view . with schools closing , there are a lot of parents then losing 10 hours of free childcare , but from a settings point of view , they 'll continue to be able to receive , for the time being , the nursery care . kirsty williams am: yes , so the decision that has been taken by my colleague , julie morgan , is that settings should stay open at the moment unless public health changes . that 's being kept under constant review on public health . again , the issue is that we know that that childcare is vital to many families , especially—and we 're particularly concerned about those individuals who are trying to help us overcome and solve these problems . if you have any specific questions about that , we 'll be happy to take them back to julie morgan . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: is this the cylch question ? lynne neagle am: yes , please . janet finch-saunders am: sorry , thank you . yes , just basically , cylch meithrin , there are concerns— [ interruption . ] lynne neagle am: we 've lost janet . we 'll come back to her . kirsty williams am: i think if the issue is about funding for cylch meithrin , these are not normal circumstances . as a welsh government , we will take every step to provide continuity of funding , if at all possible . we will overcome this , and when we overcome this situation we find ourselves in , we will need those childcare settings , we will need those private businesses and we will need our cylch meithrin to be there to respond and to be able to go on doing the job that they usually do for us . and if there is any way that we can , as a government , ensure that that happens by carrying on funding things , even if they are not able to run , all usual— [ inaudible . ] — around service-level agreements are off . i 'm not setting the precedent—let me make that absolutely clear . [ laughter . ] but , you know , we will not undermine businesses and voluntary provision like cylch by withdrawing welsh government funding . i hope i 've been clear . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you for that . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , kirsty . lynne neagle am: if we can move on to talk about exams , obviously you made the announcement yesterday . i completely understand that everything is a very fast-moving situation , but , as you know , there are a lot of questions that people have about young people who 've put a lot of work in . are you able to tell us any more today ? in particular , have you got any idea about timescales now for setting out what the approach will be to handling the lack of summer exams ? kirsty williams am: yes , it is a devastating decision to have to have been taken , but i have done so on the very , very clear and unambiguous advice from qualifications wales . i met with qualifications wales and the wjec yesterday . what was most important to them was that i made an early decision and i did not equivocate on what would happen for the exams . i was able to make an informal decision at that meeting , and then , of course , there is a formal process that we have to go through . that , now , allows qualifications wales and the exam board to operationalise that decision , and they will be communicating with schools as quickly as possible about what schools will need to do to ensure that the systems that they will now put in place can work . we are trying , as far as we can , as i understand it , to be able to mirror as closely as possible the usual results day , for instance . it might not be possible , because , of course , we 're dealing with a situation that requires human beings to be involved in it , and those human beings could find themselves unwell . so , our best attempts will be to maintain the normal rhythm of an exams day in august , but that has to be caveated by the fact that we 're dealing with difficult circumstances . but , the wjec and qualifications wales will be making urgent communications to exam centres to explain what will need to happen next . lynne neagle am: okay . janet , you had a question on this . janet finch-saunders am: yes , i think i raised it yesterday , kirsty , but you were receiving loads of questions . i 'd just ask for some further clarification about coursework , because only 30 per cent of that is done . years 11 and 13 , typically , in my case they 're what 's been raised with me—do you have any advice for them ? kirsty williams am: okay , so , all exams are cancelled , but year 11 and year 13 will be given a grade—i think that 's a distinction that people need to be aware of . that is because those years and those grades are gateway qualifications , and they are points of movement in the education system . so , it 's really important for those students that they are not disadvantaged in any way by not being able to receive a grade that helps them to make a decision as a qualifying step into what they will do next , whether that be university , whether that be a degree apprenticeship or whether that be going into sixth form , into a college , into an apprenticeship or into some work-based learning opportunities . that 's why we have to focus on those children , because for them , it is absolutely critical that we do . we are at an advantage in wales , can i say ? because of the nature of our examination system , those students already have a lot of externally assessed work that we can use as a basis to move forward on . because we 've kept our as-levels , we have got that data . because we have a gcse system— . our year 11s , if they 're doing triple science , they 've already done 40 per cent of their paper , so we 're very fortunate . because of the structures that we have got in our qualification system , there is already lots and lots of externally-verified work that we can use , alongside , potentially , teacher evaluation of students as well . and i think that 's really important . we ’ re starting from a better base than simply having none of that externally-verified data . what will also be important is that these children have confidence in those qualifications , and so we will be looking at a modulated arrangement within wales , and i know that qualifications wales are discussing with their counterparts across the uk a modulated system across the uk . so , actually , we can make sure that our standards are maintained by actually having that modulation across the uk . so , we know that those children never have to worry about the rigour that has gone into determining that grade . so , they can have real confidence . lynne neagle am: okay . helen mary . helen mary jones am: thank you . a supplementary question that might feed into that moderation . you 'll know that the national union of students has suggested that black and minority ethnic children and children from the working class , on the whole , do n't do as well , in terms of their assessment by their own teachers . i do n't know what their evidence is for that . we also know , of course , that boys tend to do better in exams , and girls tend to do better at coursework , for whatever reason that is . so , just to ask you at this early stage to build in those considerations around potential unconscious bias into that overall system that you 're talking about . and , of course , you are right to say that , because we have got some elements of external moderation here , those factors may be less for us in wales than they might for colleagues in england . kirsty williams am: yes , i think we are starting at a different base , thank goodness . so , you 're quite right . as i said , students will have done unit 1 papers last year if they 're gcse students . dare i say it , some might even have done early entry . so , we still have elements of coursework that are externally verified . so , children might well have done lots of oral exams in their english and in their welsh language . so , we have lots of pieces of work that will have been externally verified . i certainly will ensure that these concerns are passed on . i 'm sure that qualifications wales are thinking about it . i have every confidence that they and the wjec will come up with a very comprehensive way of establishing those grades , but i have to say , in some ways , i have to step back now , because you would not expect me , in normal circumstances , to dictate to the wjec how much percentage goes for that , and how much percentage is allocated for that ; that would not be appropriate for a minister . my job is to make the decision on the examinations on the basis of having confidence that what can be put in place is fair and is equitable , and i have confidence that that will be the case . helen mary jones am: thank you . lynne neagle am: suzy . suzy davies am: a few things from me . one is , obviously , pupils are being asked to work at home as well now , some of whom will be doing gcse and a-level courses . so , there 's just a question , generally , from me— because we 're encouraging these kids to carry on working—how that will be accommodated by qualifications wales , i guess , in this modulation process . it may be that your at-home work will be of a higher standard or a lower standard than a teacher would be expecting . secondly , you mentioned the as-levels , of course , as being of value at the moment , but we 've got people in year 12 who now wo n't be doing their ass . is there any steer at this stage about what they will be expected to do ? will they be doing two sets of exams next year , for example ? or is as just off the table ? in which case , how are the a2s going to be calculated in due course ? and then , finally from me , we do have some vocational qualifications that are up for examination as well—your btecs , and i think it 's the association of accounting technicians , which is a lot of computer-based learning—which is due to be examined within three weeks . those aren ’ t a-levels or gcses . i appreciate that you may not have the answer just at the moment , but are they off as well is the question , i guess ? kirsty williams am: with regard to as-levels—no final decision has been made for exactly how those students will be treated . there are a range of options that could be used , but again , we will want to be thinking about student well-being , fairness and equity in that regard , and i will update members as soon as i have received definitive advice from qualifications wales around that , and that has n't happened yet . with regard to other types of qualifications , as you will be aware , the vast majority of btecs is a modular , continually-assessed piece of work , and we would have every expectation that btecs will be able to be awarded , but clearly , those conversations are with awarding bodies—they tend to be uk awarding bodies , rather then necessarily our wjec exam board—and those conversations are ongoing . but i have every expectation that those qualifications will be awarded and , of course , because of their nature there 's even more evidence of continued assessment . huw , i do n't know if there 's anything else that you would like to add about those types of qualifications . huw morris: no . i think you 've covered most of it . i do n't have a definitive answer for the att qualification , but we can look into that and come back to you . suzy davies am: well , i 've just had a constituent ask , so that would be very helpful . and homeworking— kirsty williams am: homeworking , right . suzy davies am: —is that going to count towards the assessments , overall assessments ? kirsty williams am: well , potentially , as i said . i do n't know the exact elements . what will be absolutely necessary is that qualifications wales and the wjec will be able to give absolute clarity and simplicity around how those grades will be arrived at , because parents , teachers and students will want to know that , and my expectation is on them to be able to clearly communicate what elements will and will not be taken into consideration when awarding those grades . suzy davies am: that 's great . at least we covered it . thank you , minister—thank you , kirsty . lynne neagle am: and , just before we move on , have the universities across the uk indicated that they are content with this approach going forward—content to accept students on this basis ? kirsty williams am: certainly . there have been discussions with universities and ucas , of course , that this also has a bearing on . one of the— . and the views of university and how university terms might be impacted is one of the ways and one of the reasons that we 've factored in to making these decisions . those discussions with universities are ongoing , are n't they , huw ? huw morris: yes . so , we 've been in regular conversation with universities wales and through them with universities uk and we 've received every indication that the approach that 's been adopted here has been welcomed by the institutions . those conversations will continue as we work through the practicalities of how the gradings that are awarded are going to feed through into university admissions decisions and enrolment . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . well , we 've got some questions now from suzy on the potential closures of colleges and universities . suzy davies am: okay . well , it 's a very general question , really . i appreciate you 've already indicated there are lots of ongoing conversations , but my understanding is whether colleges or universities close is pretty much still at their own discretion . we 're going to be asking some questions on emergency legislation shortly , which may impact on the answer you can give today , but what sort of conversations are you having with fe and he at the moment about how they decide ? kirsty williams am: well , you 're absolutely right . as we often say in this committee , universities are autonomous institutions—a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question . universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them . colleges are in a similar position , looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods , and the bill , potentially , does give us more powers of intervention in both the fe and the he sector . suzy davies am: i might ask you about that in a minute , because i do n't even know what the bill says yet . kirsty williams am: huw , i do n't know if there 's anything you want to add . huw morris: no—just to confirm what 's been said and also to add in that independent training providers , similarly autonomous , like colleges and universities , have been moving in the same direction . we 've been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that 's been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies . we 've got consistency in the approach and a common desire , and investment in moving towards online support for students . suzy davies am: and there 's still this safety net idea . certainly , colleges have indicated , as with schools , that , for the most vulnerable learners , they 'll have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis . huw morris: that 's my understanding , yes , and , again , we 've been in regular conversation with them about that . my understanding is that they 're going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions . suzy davies am: that 's fair enough . and , presumably , education maintenance allowance will still be paid . kirsty williams am: yes . arrangements have been made to ensure that ema continues to be paid to all students who are entitled . suzy davies am: that 's right . you indicated that any welsh government support 's going to stay , whatever the circumstances are—in your portfolio . kirsty williams am: yes . i 'm doing my best , but it 's an absolute yes on the ema . there will be no disruption to ema . suzy davies am: okay . you might get some further questions on he and fe . lynne neagle am: yes . we 've got some further questions , indeed , from helen mary and then hefin . helen mary jones am: now or in a bit ? lynne neagle am: yes . helen mary jones am: just further to ema , of course , at the moment , that has an attendance qualification , does n't it ? and you do n't get your ema if you do n't turn up . should we take from your last answer that that attendance qualification does n't apply anymore ? kirsty williams am: yes . they ca n't turn up if the institution is not open , and that 's not their fault . helen mary jones am: no , but that is something that 's been a worry , so that 's really encouraging to hear . thinking about students in higher education , can you give an assurance that student maintenance payments will continue as normal ? is that the intention ? kirsty williams am: yes . helen mary jones am: that 's really good to hear . and have you given any special ministerial instruction to student finance wales on processing applications for support or changes of circumstances , or is that something that 's kind of ongoing at the moment ? kirsty williams am: those conversations are ongoing with the student loans company . as i said , we anticipate no disruption to— . we do n't anticipate any change in the approach to students as a result of this . individual student circumstances could well change and our expectation would be that the student loans company would respond to that . all i would say is , just to remind people : people who work for the student loans company are no more able to resist this disease than anybody else . there will undoubtedly in some cases be really practical challenges to service delivery , simply because organisations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they are reacting to social-distancing messages from the government . so , i think we just need to bear that in mind : that these organisations are doing their best , but , if they are badly affected by staff numbers being off because of the virus , then i hope people will give them due consideration . helen mary jones am: yes , that makes sense , of course , because we 've been told that universities wo n't be able to entirely close , because there will be students who ca n't go home— kirsty williams am: it is their home . helen mary jones am: —overseas students , for example . what discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students ' basic needs are met , that there 's still food , shelter , whatever they need ? kirsty williams am: well , obviously , universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances , and every conversation that huw 's been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that . huw morris: we instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease , not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in china and other parts of south-east asia . and so , as the disease has progressed , we 've seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the uk , and i am assured that the universities here in wales have got processes in place that support those learners . helen mary jones am: that 's really helpful . and on this specifically—last question from me— have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees , should the academic year not be completed ? huw morris: so , as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online , clearly , there are lessons that will need to be taken on board . there are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs . the intention in all of these institutions is that they will complete their course of study . there are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed . failing those institutional mechanisms , there is a uk-wide system through the office of the independent adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have . so , we 're confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs . lynne neagle am: okay . suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: no , mr morris has answered my question . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've got a couple more questions now on vulnerable learners . i 've got helen mary , then hefin . helen mary jones am: i think , chair , the minister has already answered what the— . but thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and well-being of staff and learners across a range of educational settings , or , indeed , young people who ca n't access educational settings , what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and well-being might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone ? kirsty williams am: yes , that is correct . so , our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure—which i think , if we 're honest , we have to acknowledge is what we 're looking at—we would expect school staff—well-being staff , for instance in school—to be doing check-ins—phone check-ins , potentially , or facetime check-ins , with students , just to keep in touch with them as we go forward . we 'll be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available—so , for instance , meic website—so , looking to use a variety of platforms . we do , of course , have the formal nhs counselling services . i 'm concerned , of course , that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school . we know that , and we 're just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists—online counselling tools that children already use because they do n't want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor . they 're already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue , as far as possible , those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered , and their worries . i think we have to remember that this is a really worrying time for children and young people . one of the reasons , again , that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible—and teachers have been working so hard to do that—is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we 've needed and wanted to maintain . children will have worries about their own health ; they 'll have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents ; they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves . so , we need to understand , and i think we will also have to recognise , that this support will have to be ongoing once we 're back to normal , and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience . they are incredibly resilient , and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages . they are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole 'washing your hands ' and things like that than even adults have been . so , they are incredibly resilient , but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them . helen mary jones am: can i just— ? just a supplementary to that—you 've mentioned already , kirsty , the importance of youth services , and , particularly thinking voluntarily youth services , you 've given the commitment , when were talking about mudiad ysgolion meithrin earlier , that services that are part-funded by grants through the welsh government , for example , thinking of the national youth voluntary service—will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well ? obviously , local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open , but , in terms of the direct support from welsh government , can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time ? kirsty williams am: no formal decision has been made , but if people are in receipt of a government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public— helen mary jones am: because it 's not safe . kirsty williams am: —because it 's not safe to do so , i do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying , 'we 'll have our money back , thank you very much . ' lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . helen mary jones am: that will make a lot of people happy , thank you . [ laughter . ] kirsty williams am: as i said , we are facing unprecedented circumstances . the normal rules of engagement have to change and , those organisations , we 'll need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal , and we would n't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that . our call to the youth service is a call to arms , though . when we 're trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for front-line staff children , they have a valuable role to play and i know that local government and the council for wales of voluntary youth services are already in discussion about how youth services— . many of our youth services work on an outreach basis . those traditional youth clubs , because of austerity , are not necessarily there anymore , so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work , and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier . helen mary jones am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin , briefly , and then we 're going to take one final question from suzy on emergency legislation . hefin david am: all right . i 'll declare an interest as a parent of a child with additional learning needs , although the question i 'm about to ask does n't reflect her interests . additional learning needs pupils who are waiting outcomes of referrals—if they 're currently waiting an outcome of a referral , will that process will be suspended or will it continue as normal ? and , if it is suspended , will it pick up where it left off from this point ? kirsty williams am: i think we have to recognise that the ability to deliver business as usual has been massively compromised . i 'm sure people will try and continue to do their normal activities and their normal jobs , but that might not be possible . i will have to check that , hefin , to be honest . i do n't want to give you any false assurance if , actually , the intelligence on the ground is that that simply will not be able to happen . but we don't— hefin david am: can we have a clear line on that ? kirsty williams am: we do n't want to jeopardise anybody , but as i said , some of the normal services are simply not available as everybody turns their attention to trying to respond to the pandemic . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . final question—because i know that the minister 's got a lot of things that she needs to get on with—from suzy on emergency legislation . suzy davies am: i 'm not going to ask you if you 'll use any powers you get under the emergency legislation , but are you able to give us some indication of what they might be ? kirsty williams am: sure . for instance , the bill will provide welsh ministers with powers to temporarily close schools or other educational institutions , childcare premises ; powers to give temporary continuity direction—so , actually , the other way around , force things to be open—and to be able to direct resources . so , that includes , as i said , i could direct something to stay open if that institution was trying to close down . the powers also give flexibility to maybe be able to direct staff to other institutions that they would not normally work in , if that was part of our resilience needs . we 'd also be looking at , for instance , relaxing requirements around ratios in childcare settings , or we might be wanting to do things around food . so , obviously , we have rules around the level of nutrition that schools should be giving their children . if there is a continuing role for schools in providing food , we might have to be a bit more flexible about what that might look like . so , those kinds of flexibilities—to be able to suspend things , direct things—that we would not normally have in normal circumstances . suzy davies am: okay . and just to finish this one off—you may not be able to answer this one , in all fairness—in those situations where it 's the government who says 'no ' to various things , does that then help people in the situation of dawn 's nursery , and insurance claims suddenly become more likely ? kirsty williams am: i 'm not an expert on insurance , and i do n't know if anybody here can help me . but what my understanding is , is that even where government has given a direction that does not necessarily mean that you will be covered by your insurance . what we 're finding in the private sector is that insurance companies are not paying out , because even when a government has directed it , they do not regard this as a disruption to business . so , the insurance industry is not my area of expertise . suzy davies am: no , no , i accept that . kirsty williams am: it 's not my area of expertise , but from what i understand from discussions around the cabinet table , this is particularly problematic . let me give you an example about how we 've been trying to overcome some of this—it feels like an awfully long time ago now— you 'll be aware that we gave directions earlier around cancellation of school trips abroad . trying to make sure that that direction came from the foreign and commonwealth office , rather than the department for education was a real battle , because again there were fears that , unless that advice came from the foreign and commonwealth office , insurance would not kick in , and that was a two-day discussion . suzy davies am: okay . this is helpful to know , actually . kirsty williams am: so , these are the kinds of things that we 're grappling with . but , as i said , thinking about it , that was only last week , but it feels like an aeon ago . suzy davies am: i 'm not holding you to that , but it helps us manage the questions we get asked . kirsty williams am: yes , but as i said , insurance is not my area of expertise . suzy davies am: no , but thank you for answering . lynne neagle am: okay . well , we 've come to the end of our time . can i thank you for attending this morning , and your officials ? we do recognise what an incredibly challenging time this is , and we 'd like to place on record our thanks to all of you for the work that you 're doing to try and see us through this crisis . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . thank you again , all of you , for your attendance . item 3 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

according to kirsty , children might well have done lots of oral exams in their english and in their welsh language . therefore , they had lots of pieces of work that would have been externally verified . they certainly would ensure that these concerns were passed on . their job was to make the decision on the examinations on the basis of having confidence that what could be put in places was fair and was equitable , and they had the confidence that they would be the case .

had the universities across the uk indicated that they were content with the approach going forward ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . i 've received apologies for absence from siân gwenllian , and i 'm very pleased to welcome helen mary jones , who is substituting for siân today . can i ask whether members want to declare any interests , please ? can i just , then , place on record that i have got a son who was about to do a-levels , so is affected by the exam decision ? we 'll move on , then , to our substantive item today , which is an evidence session with the welsh government around the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on education in wales . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams , minister for education ; steve davies , who is director of the education directorate ; huw morris , who is the group director , skills , higher education and lifelong learning ; and rob orford , who is the chief scientific adviser for health . thank you all for coming . we know that this is a really difficult and pressurised time for everyone , and we appreciate your attendance . minister , i understand you wanted to make an opening statement today . kirsty williams am: yes , if that 's okay , chair . as you know , it 's not usually my practice to do that , but i think it is important today . covid-19 coronavirus is one of the most significant issues that the welsh government and the people of wales have dealt with in recent times . dealing with the impacts of this pandemic is extremely challenging . things are changing on an hourly basis , and we have to make decisions quickly to ensure public safety . but i would like to assure you that our aim , and my aim , and my main concern as the education minister is to protect all staff and pupils in our schools and other educational settings . but we also have a duty to ensure continuing and continuity of education . public health is clearly the priority here , but that does not change our belief that no child should miss out on any education , unless absolutely necessary . so , the decision to close all schools from tomorrow for statutory education provision was not taken lightly , but i believe it was necessary , given the advice and recommendations that we had received from a public health perspective and the situation that was developing on the ground . from next week , schools will have a new purpose . they will help support those most in need , including people involved in the immediate response to the coronavirus outbreak , and i 'm working with my colleagues in the cabinet , with government officials and our partners in local government to develop and finalise these plans . the key areas that we 're looking at are supporting and safeguarding the vulnerable and ensuring continuity of learning . this includes all of those who benefit from free school meals and children with additional learning needs . i can confirm that all maintained schools in wales already have access to a range of digital tools that can support distance learning through the world-class hwb digital learning platform , including virtual classrooms and video-conferencing facilities . a guide on what tools are available and how schools can use them has been developed and is being promoted widely . yesterday , i announced that , whilst there are no easy choices , we have agreed that the best way forward is not to proceed with the summer exam series . learners due to sit these exams will be awarded a fair grade to recognise their work , drawing on a range of information that is available , and i will announce further details shortly , but i felt it necessary to give early certainty to students and to staff . i would like to put on record my thanks to everyone working in education settings for the hard work that they have put in over the last few months in dealing with the virus and ensuring that pupils have been able to continue to learn . we need to continue to do this work together , as we face the continuing challenges posed by the coronavirus . diolch yn fawr . lynne neagle am: thank you very much , minister , for that statement . we 'll go to questions from members now , and i 've got some questions from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . can i thank you , kirsty , for your statement and the really difficult decisions that you 've been having to make ? you 've already indicated in your statement this morning that these decisions are not taken lightly , and we understand that that is the case across government . so , thank you for what you 've been doing . you 've outlined a little bit further there in your statement to us this morning about the new purpose . i take from what you 're saying that you have n't really developed that yet in terms of exactly what that is going to look like . you 've talked about the children of key workers , free school meals , additional learning needs . is there anything else you can tell us about that at the moment and how you might staff the schools in those particular areas ? kirsty williams am: thank you , dawn . so , you're absolutely right , our priority now is to operationalise , with colleagues in local government and schools , a practical response . and i have to say , we 're working to timescales that i would have hoped to have avoided , but given the fact that we 're having to make these decisions quite quickly , i hope that you will understand that perhaps where we start on monday might change when we have more time and more opportunities to develop programmes going forward . steve will be able to give you more details of the practical work that has already been going on , but our expectation will be that schools will be playing an important part in providing safe and secure places for children of those on the front-line response to dealing with the coronavirus to attend , and work is already under way with local authorities and individual schools on what that will look like for the emergency situation on monday . our other priority is indeed free school meals , and , again , where we eventually end up might be a different place to where we are on monday . again , we 're responding to the emergency situation that there will be families that were expecting a free school meal on monday , and , again , individual schools and local authorities are developing those plans at pace to be able to provide an emergency response as we work out a longer term plan to deal with the situation . the same thing also goes for additional learning needs , and attending to the needs of that particular group of learners . so , those conversations began a few days ago . i had the opportunity to meet with the first minister and andrew morgan , the leader of the welsh local government association , yesterday to talk about what local government could do , and what they were already doing . those plans in some places are already quite developed , and are now working at pace , but i hope you will understand that where we start on monday is the emergency response , and that work will develop as we go forward . but , steve , perhaps you could— ? because steve was the one making all those phone calls and doing the practical operational stuff , rather than me . steve . steve davies: in short , the new purpose is to meet the needs of particular groups of children and young people . in some cases , some of the response to supporting free school meals , in the short term in particular , we may use the schools as part of that , and i 'm certain that will happen in some cases . the second area is looking at how we support the children of key workers . now , there is still work to be done on identifying exactly the categories of key workers , but i think it 's really encouraging that in my discussions yesterday—i spoke with all 22 directors of education , and the examples we 're picking up in their work with schools is they 're already ahead of the curve in working with schools . so , schools have identified the number of children with health workers . it will grow , and we will need to look at that range . then , the third area is vulnerable children . they 're vulnerable sometimes in terms of education other than at school , vulnerable in terms of mental health , and for those children , as well as having an experience that we want to be planned , some have compared it to a snow day , particularly on monday , when you 're putting something together in the short term , but it will not be a formal curriculum that those children would normally go through . so , the range of activities—some will be focused on educational activities , some will be cultural , some will be sporting , and that plan will be developed on the basis of the age range of children , which in some cases may go from extremely young children up to those at the age of 16 in our all-through schools , but there will be a planned set of activities to cater for those children . what we are doing currently—i have staff back at cathays park who are in touch and working with directors of education to ensure that schools over the next two days will have been able to identify , at least at the earlier stage , in terms of health workers , the type and numbers of people . there are already schools who have informed us , and local authorities , of their plans for these activities to be starting next week , which is quite amazing , actually , given where we are . but we are expecting , and we 're writing to schools today , that during the course of next week , headteachers to be in schools , and with their staff , taking into consideration the health guidance as to which staff should or should not be in , and in that period from next monday through the two-week period , to easter , we expect staff to be both planning for delivery post easter , but also , as i said , building on and reflecting the good practice that 's already in place for schools that have engaged in activities , and i 'm sure a number of them will be inviting and enabling those children to come in on monday . so , monday will be a challenge for some , and not all will be delivering it , but we will be working so that we can get as much as possible delivered for those groups over the next two weeks , and particularly to have resilient programmes post easter for the groups of children in those three categories that i said . dawn bowden am: those that have been identified . can i just clarify one thing ? one of the identified vulnerable groups would clearly be children on the at-risk register . they would be included . steve davies: yes , definitely . vulnerable children , yes . kirsty williams am: in our discussions , we have asked local government to be working with the social services departments and individual schools to identify those children who may be in that situation . we know that , for some children , being at school is part of their safeguarding arrangements , and obviously we will need to be able to respond to those needs . steve davies: i wrote specifically yesterday to all directors of education to be assured that , for those children , the register is up to date and the plans are in place . i 'm working with albert heaney my colleague , the director for social services , who is meeting with the 22 directors of social services today to look to ensure that we are joined up in ensuring none of these children fall through the gap . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got a supplementary from hefin , and then suzy . hefin david am: a very quick and simple question : how are you going to communicate this to parents ? there 's a bigger picture and it 's changing all the time , as you said . the welsh government have a route to communication . the most helpful thing i 've seen is that public health wales have a single website with information regarding the wider issue of the virus . how will this then be cascaded to schools , because there 's obviously a time lag ? so , have you considered how this is going to be communicated directly to parents ? kirsty williams am: we 're using all of our platforms of communication to get these messages across . so , we 're using the more informal methods of communication , but are relying on a systematic approach via individual directors and through to individual schools . welsh government already has a dedicated website page with all of the relevant information about coronavirus . we 're looking , as quickly as we can , to have a frequently asked education questions page that we can update . understandably , people are communicating to us on twitter asking questions . it is impossible for the communications team here to be able to respond individually to every single person that is sending facebook messages and sending tweets , so the best way we can do that is to collate the types of questions people are asking and then to be able to have a frequently updated question and answer page to try to respond to that . with regard to parents , for instance , we 're aware of schools that have already sent a questionnaire out last night to parents saying , 'do you consider yourself to be a key worker ? do you work in the nhs ? please let us know by tomorrow so we can put arrangements in place for your children . ' so , schools are already taking the initiative and having those conversations with parents about what their needs will be . and , as i said , hefin , will it be perfect on monday ? no . it wo n't be perfect by monday , because we 're working to such constrained timescales . but we will continue to build that resilience . we also have to think about systems that look at what might the epidemic do and have systems of resilience that may work next week , given the situation we find ourselves in with public health advice at the moment . but that public health advice may change . therefore , have we got a system that will be resilient in those circumstances ? these are some of the challenges that we 're having to grapple with . so , as i said , what happens on monday might look very different to where we are if schools are still off in may . so , i hope people will understand that we are working in those kinds of scenarios . lynne neagle am: suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: yes , just on this question of vulnerable children , i 'm just wondering how much discretion teachers are going to have in including individual children who may not be obviously under social services ' care or on a risk register or whatever . teachers know their pupils and , very sensitively , they could include people who may not be obviously in need . kirsty williams am: we would absolutely respect the professional judgment of individual headteachers to be able to have those conversations with their directors . as you said , quite rightly , they are the individuals who know their children best and know which children , perhaps , will need this extra support . we will put no constraints on those teachers trying to do that work . suzy davies am: okay . the second part of my question is : there were going to be easter holidays anyway , were n't there ? what was going to happen about free-school-meal children during that period ? has that gone out of the window now , the normal holiday provision for children ? because that 's not there normally , is it , except in separate— kirsty williams am: we do find ourselves in a strange situation . my understanding is what we 're trying to work to is that we would have ongoing provision and not to make some strange , 'you get this for two weeks , then you do n't get it for two weeks , and then you 're back in . ' my understanding is , in england , that is what they 're going to do . we 're trying to create a system where it will be seamless and it will not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays . it wo n't matter to those nurses and doctors who will need to be in work during those weeks . we 're trying to create a system that will run uniformly . that 's our policy goal at the moment . lynne neagle am: helen mary . helen mary jones am: just briefly , building on suzy 's question , one particular group of children and young people that i hope will be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category is young carers . for some of them , they may not be able to come into school because the people they 're caring for may have to be excluded because of their conditions . but i think that , for other young carers , coming to school is an absolute lifeline , because they 're working at home . so , i do n't know if it 's appropriate for you to specifically mention those in discussions with local authorities , but it 's a group of young people who , again , may not be vulnerable in other ways , but because of their caring responsibilities they may need school . and the other group—and this , i suppose , goes back to suzy 's point about teachers knowing their young people—is the children who may be living in situations where they 're at risk of witnessing domestic abuse . again , these may very well not be children who are in any formal contact with social services , but being at home may be really not a good place for them to be . so , again , i 'd put in an appeal for that to be something that perhaps can be raised with schools . if a teacher is worried about what a child 's circumstances are like at home , whether they can be , as you said , kirsty , included as one of the— . they may not be formally identified , but if the teacher knows that they 're at risk , or there is an instinct that they 're at risk , they might be able to be included in children who are allowed to take advantage of this special provision you 're making at this difficult time . kirsty williams am: we will certainly raise those issues . we have to do that in the context of what is deliverable , and we also have to do that in the context of the public health advice that we are receiving as well . one of the reasons why schools are closing is to help manage this disease . we know that the ability for school closures to make a contribution to that diminishes if we have significant children in school still . so , we will take these issues into consideration , but remembering this is part of an epidemic mitigation plan . rob is the expert on that , not me . rob orford: yes , absolutely . this is a rapidly-evolving problem and the scale is something that we have n't seen in 100 years , and so we 're having to evolve and iterate things as we go . next week , i think , will look different to this week . so , it kind of is what it is . we 've all got a role to play , and schools certainly have a significant role to play in breaking those chains of transmission . areas that we 're worried about are displacement activities . if we close the schools , then people collect at others ' houses . we need to send a really clear message that you 're all part of the solution , and the things that you do by distancing yourselves from your friends and your family are really important for us to get on top of this outbreak . the more that we can do that , the easier it will be when we go forward . helen mary jones am: i 'm sure that that 's true , but i 'm sure that we would n't be wanting a child who 's in a very pressured environment with perhaps a very difficult relationship between mum and dad— . it may be very important for those children to be out of that for some of the time . hopefully , we 're talking about relatively small numbers , but i just— . kirsty williams am: we will look at vulnerability in a holistic way . lynne neagle am: janet , you had a supplementary . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair , and good morning , minister , and your team . can i just put on record my thanks for all that you 're having to endure at this moment ? i think it 's fair to say you have the support of assembly members and , indeed , our communities . now , the question i have : if cylch meithrin have to close , where will they get money from to pay their staff ? because , currently , thankfully , there 's support for businesses . lynne neagle am: janet , we 're not doing cylch meithrin at the moment ; we are sticking with schools , as we discussed in advance . dawn . dawn bowden am: can i just get some clarity , steve , around what you were saying in terms of next week ? because i think the practical applications of this—and i understand that you do n't know all of this yet , i understand that—the practical applications are what is coming to us , obviously , with constituents saying , 'well , what 's going to happen to that ? ' just so that i can be clear , are you saying that , at this stage , every headteacher will be in school on monday , as will all their staff ? steve davies: within the scope of the guidance in terms of their health , the expectation—and this will be conveyed in letters by the minister today , to be made clear—is that they are closing for the majority of pupils , but our expectation within the guidance is that the headteacher with their staff will be coming in ; for some to start the delivery of what we just described , but that will probably be small numbers , but more importantly to plan to ensure that , after the formal easter period , which is school holidays , the schools are geared to cater for the range of pupils that we 've been discussing . dawn bowden am: so , would you anticipate—again , i know this is all a bit 'if and when ' , and it depends on the changing nature of the advice , but from what you 're saying , i think we can probably anticipate that , as we go forward , there will probably be fewer schools opening and operable—that we may be moving those children on to fewer sites . would that possibly— ? kirsty williams am: that is a potential . so , we already know that one of our local authorities already has identified a strategic pattern of schools that they will want to operate in this way . that local authority has already chosen those locations , and is already having communications with how they will then staff those centres . so , that could well— . that , i expect , in the longer term , will be the nature of the provision that we will get to . but that 's not for us to dictate . the local authorities are best placed to understand what is the best , pragmatic use of the resources that they have available ; and of course those resources , primarily , are human beings . so , we 've talked a lot this morning in the context of teaching staff , teaching assistants , but we 're also having discussions with local authorities , and i met with the council for wales of voluntary youth services this week , to look at deploying youth workers , to look to be deploying other staff that the local authority may employ , like sports development officers . there may be cultural officers that can have something to offer . welsh government will be talking with a range of our partners who perhaps their normal activities ca n't continue at the moment , but actually have personnel who want to add to this effort , who want to be able to be part of a provision going forward in the longer term , to be able to provide a great place for children to be . we want to give parents , who we are asking— . let 's think about it , in these worst of times , we 're asking parents to leave their children so that they can go and do essential work , and some of that essential work is putting themselves at risk , potentially . and we want to give those parents confidence that , when they leave their child with us , that child will receive something really worthwhile , and they can direct all of their attention to doing their job . lynne neagle am: just before you— . janet , have you got a supplementary on schools now , not on early years settings ? janet finch-saunders am: i lost the signal before , so it 's a little bit confusing at this end , so bear with me . just in terms of the closure of schools , i have been asked by teachers what does new purpose—you may have covered it , but bear in mind [ inaudible . ] —mean in practice . and also , they 're already asking what will next— ? i know you said earlier that next week could look and probably will look significantly different than this week , but what can they expect to be happening next week in terms of this new purpose work ? lynne neagle am: we 've covered that , janet . kirsty williams am: first of all , janet , i just want to say thank you very much for your kind comments . that 's really , really kind of you . we will be sending a letter today to clarify those positions . so , each school will receive letters today about the expectations of schools next week . lynne neagle am: i think you 're having trouble hearing us , are n't you , so i think— ? janet finch-saunders am: no , i heard that loud and clear . lynne neagle am: but i think you missed the earlier comments , when we went into some detail on the new purpose of schools . so , i 'm sorry about that ; we are having some problems with the connection . janet finch-saunders am: yes , we could n't get a signal . lynne neagle am: dawn . dawn bowden am: just in relation to special schools and how they will fit into this new purpose arrangement . kirsty williams am: yes , they 're absolutely central to that planning . we know , again , that some of these children are our most vulnerable and they are some of our most pressurised families . therefore , the same situation that we 've just described for maintained schools also applies to special schools . we 'll be having discussions about what arrangements can be made for those children within their own usual settings . in some cases , that may not be possible . so , again , already local authorities are making different provision . can i give a shout out to the work of rhondda cynon taf in this regard , who are already doing some excellent work with regard to how they can keep in touch with their children who usually would attend their special schools . but , again , steve can give more detail . steve davies: i think special schools have already been hit by this challenge , because a significant proportion of their children , because of their conditions , have not been coming to school , they 've been isolated . but the principle we 've used there is , actually , even if it 's a minority of children who go to those schools and are vulnerable , they deserve and need that support through the school . so , we would expect that to function with the focus on vulnerable children . but similarly , even in special schools , there will be children whose parents will be key workers , so we would expect them to apply that same principle . just quickly in response to the earlier question , while we may bring some groups of children into separate schools , we ’ ll have to continue with the principle of keeping social distance and any provision for a child in a special school in a different setting would be unlikely , given the nature of the special school , so we would look to cater for that within the original school . dawn bowden am: just a couple more questions from me . it ’ s likely , because i know it has already happened , that some schools might actually close before monday . some schools have already partially closed . are you quite happy that headteachers still have the discretion to do that , if they feel that ’ s the right thing to do ? kirsty williams am: in this situation , the discretion of the head still remains . as i said , we will be communicating with all schools today about our expectations , if at all possible , to have schools open for staff to do some of this planning and to be able to respond to these priority needs that we 've just talked about . steve davies: the rationale of headteachers for closing schools up to now has been that they ca n't cope with the safety of the children . i think , moving forward , it 's unlikely that that would be a rationale that headteachers would want to use for not engaging and planning for the future . dawn bowden am: we 're only talking about one more day , now , anyway , are n't we ? so , just in terms of confirmed cases in schools , is your view at this stage that , if there is a confirmed case in a school , once that school has been deep-cleaned , it can reopen again ? kirsty williams am: if we had a confirmed case in a school , then all the usual mechanisms arranged by public health wales would kick in at that point . dawn bowden am: okay . and my final question is in relation to the position of early years and childcare settings . i know that kind of crosses over into somebody else 's portfolio as well , but i think we know that . certainly what i 've seen , and i 'm sure this is true elsewhere as well , we 've seen nurseries closing down because the parents are actually taking the children out of those nurseries . i 've got one in particular , there are kids from the ages of 6 to 12 years in there , and the parents are taking them out . they 've got 30 staff there , catering for 200 children and no children to care for and the organisation , at this stage , is unable to claim on their insurance for the ongoing payment of those staff wages . is there any advice that we can give to people in that situation at this stage ? kirsty williams am: sure . as you say , many of these settings are businesses—people 's businesses and they play a hugely important role and it 's a very worrying time for them . we have said that we will continue to pay for childcare , delivered under the childcare offer even when a child is unable , or a parent is unwilling , to take up that place . so , if that setting is receiving a childcare payment from the welsh government as part of our childcare offer , that will be paid , regardless of whether that child attends or not . and i know that we 're also working with local authorities to ensure a similar position on flying start childcare and early education . so , that payment will be made , regardless of whether a child is attending . it 's also important that childcare settings will be able to apply for the various packages of support that are being made available by my colleague , ken skates . lynne neagle am: hefin , then janet . hefin david am: yes , i 'd just like to turn that around from the parents ' point of view . with schools closing , there are a lot of parents then losing 10 hours of free childcare , but from a settings point of view , they 'll continue to be able to receive , for the time being , the nursery care . kirsty williams am: yes , so the decision that has been taken by my colleague , julie morgan , is that settings should stay open at the moment unless public health changes . that 's being kept under constant review on public health . again , the issue is that we know that that childcare is vital to many families , especially—and we 're particularly concerned about those individuals who are trying to help us overcome and solve these problems . if you have any specific questions about that , we 'll be happy to take them back to julie morgan . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: is this the cylch question ? lynne neagle am: yes , please . janet finch-saunders am: sorry , thank you . yes , just basically , cylch meithrin , there are concerns— [ interruption . ] lynne neagle am: we 've lost janet . we 'll come back to her . kirsty williams am: i think if the issue is about funding for cylch meithrin , these are not normal circumstances . as a welsh government , we will take every step to provide continuity of funding , if at all possible . we will overcome this , and when we overcome this situation we find ourselves in , we will need those childcare settings , we will need those private businesses and we will need our cylch meithrin to be there to respond and to be able to go on doing the job that they usually do for us . and if there is any way that we can , as a government , ensure that that happens by carrying on funding things , even if they are not able to run , all usual— [ inaudible . ] — around service-level agreements are off . i 'm not setting the precedent—let me make that absolutely clear . [ laughter . ] but , you know , we will not undermine businesses and voluntary provision like cylch by withdrawing welsh government funding . i hope i 've been clear . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you for that . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , kirsty . lynne neagle am: if we can move on to talk about exams , obviously you made the announcement yesterday . i completely understand that everything is a very fast-moving situation , but , as you know , there are a lot of questions that people have about young people who 've put a lot of work in . are you able to tell us any more today ? in particular , have you got any idea about timescales now for setting out what the approach will be to handling the lack of summer exams ? kirsty williams am: yes , it is a devastating decision to have to have been taken , but i have done so on the very , very clear and unambiguous advice from qualifications wales . i met with qualifications wales and the wjec yesterday . what was most important to them was that i made an early decision and i did not equivocate on what would happen for the exams . i was able to make an informal decision at that meeting , and then , of course , there is a formal process that we have to go through . that , now , allows qualifications wales and the exam board to operationalise that decision , and they will be communicating with schools as quickly as possible about what schools will need to do to ensure that the systems that they will now put in place can work . we are trying , as far as we can , as i understand it , to be able to mirror as closely as possible the usual results day , for instance . it might not be possible , because , of course , we 're dealing with a situation that requires human beings to be involved in it , and those human beings could find themselves unwell . so , our best attempts will be to maintain the normal rhythm of an exams day in august , but that has to be caveated by the fact that we 're dealing with difficult circumstances . but , the wjec and qualifications wales will be making urgent communications to exam centres to explain what will need to happen next . lynne neagle am: okay . janet , you had a question on this . janet finch-saunders am: yes , i think i raised it yesterday , kirsty , but you were receiving loads of questions . i 'd just ask for some further clarification about coursework , because only 30 per cent of that is done . years 11 and 13 , typically , in my case they 're what 's been raised with me—do you have any advice for them ? kirsty williams am: okay , so , all exams are cancelled , but year 11 and year 13 will be given a grade—i think that 's a distinction that people need to be aware of . that is because those years and those grades are gateway qualifications , and they are points of movement in the education system . so , it 's really important for those students that they are not disadvantaged in any way by not being able to receive a grade that helps them to make a decision as a qualifying step into what they will do next , whether that be university , whether that be a degree apprenticeship or whether that be going into sixth form , into a college , into an apprenticeship or into some work-based learning opportunities . that 's why we have to focus on those children , because for them , it is absolutely critical that we do . we are at an advantage in wales , can i say ? because of the nature of our examination system , those students already have a lot of externally assessed work that we can use as a basis to move forward on . because we 've kept our as-levels , we have got that data . because we have a gcse system— . our year 11s , if they 're doing triple science , they 've already done 40 per cent of their paper , so we 're very fortunate . because of the structures that we have got in our qualification system , there is already lots and lots of externally-verified work that we can use , alongside , potentially , teacher evaluation of students as well . and i think that 's really important . we ’ re starting from a better base than simply having none of that externally-verified data . what will also be important is that these children have confidence in those qualifications , and so we will be looking at a modulated arrangement within wales , and i know that qualifications wales are discussing with their counterparts across the uk a modulated system across the uk . so , actually , we can make sure that our standards are maintained by actually having that modulation across the uk . so , we know that those children never have to worry about the rigour that has gone into determining that grade . so , they can have real confidence . lynne neagle am: okay . helen mary . helen mary jones am: thank you . a supplementary question that might feed into that moderation . you 'll know that the national union of students has suggested that black and minority ethnic children and children from the working class , on the whole , do n't do as well , in terms of their assessment by their own teachers . i do n't know what their evidence is for that . we also know , of course , that boys tend to do better in exams , and girls tend to do better at coursework , for whatever reason that is . so , just to ask you at this early stage to build in those considerations around potential unconscious bias into that overall system that you 're talking about . and , of course , you are right to say that , because we have got some elements of external moderation here , those factors may be less for us in wales than they might for colleagues in england . kirsty williams am: yes , i think we are starting at a different base , thank goodness . so , you 're quite right . as i said , students will have done unit 1 papers last year if they 're gcse students . dare i say it , some might even have done early entry . so , we still have elements of coursework that are externally verified . so , children might well have done lots of oral exams in their english and in their welsh language . so , we have lots of pieces of work that will have been externally verified . i certainly will ensure that these concerns are passed on . i 'm sure that qualifications wales are thinking about it . i have every confidence that they and the wjec will come up with a very comprehensive way of establishing those grades , but i have to say , in some ways , i have to step back now , because you would not expect me , in normal circumstances , to dictate to the wjec how much percentage goes for that , and how much percentage is allocated for that ; that would not be appropriate for a minister . my job is to make the decision on the examinations on the basis of having confidence that what can be put in place is fair and is equitable , and i have confidence that that will be the case . helen mary jones am: thank you . lynne neagle am: suzy . suzy davies am: a few things from me . one is , obviously , pupils are being asked to work at home as well now , some of whom will be doing gcse and a-level courses . so , there 's just a question , generally , from me— because we 're encouraging these kids to carry on working—how that will be accommodated by qualifications wales , i guess , in this modulation process . it may be that your at-home work will be of a higher standard or a lower standard than a teacher would be expecting . secondly , you mentioned the as-levels , of course , as being of value at the moment , but we 've got people in year 12 who now wo n't be doing their ass . is there any steer at this stage about what they will be expected to do ? will they be doing two sets of exams next year , for example ? or is as just off the table ? in which case , how are the a2s going to be calculated in due course ? and then , finally from me , we do have some vocational qualifications that are up for examination as well—your btecs , and i think it 's the association of accounting technicians , which is a lot of computer-based learning—which is due to be examined within three weeks . those aren ’ t a-levels or gcses . i appreciate that you may not have the answer just at the moment , but are they off as well is the question , i guess ? kirsty williams am: with regard to as-levels—no final decision has been made for exactly how those students will be treated . there are a range of options that could be used , but again , we will want to be thinking about student well-being , fairness and equity in that regard , and i will update members as soon as i have received definitive advice from qualifications wales around that , and that has n't happened yet . with regard to other types of qualifications , as you will be aware , the vast majority of btecs is a modular , continually-assessed piece of work , and we would have every expectation that btecs will be able to be awarded , but clearly , those conversations are with awarding bodies—they tend to be uk awarding bodies , rather then necessarily our wjec exam board—and those conversations are ongoing . but i have every expectation that those qualifications will be awarded and , of course , because of their nature there 's even more evidence of continued assessment . huw , i do n't know if there 's anything else that you would like to add about those types of qualifications . huw morris: no . i think you 've covered most of it . i do n't have a definitive answer for the att qualification , but we can look into that and come back to you . suzy davies am: well , i 've just had a constituent ask , so that would be very helpful . and homeworking— kirsty williams am: homeworking , right . suzy davies am: —is that going to count towards the assessments , overall assessments ? kirsty williams am: well , potentially , as i said . i do n't know the exact elements . what will be absolutely necessary is that qualifications wales and the wjec will be able to give absolute clarity and simplicity around how those grades will be arrived at , because parents , teachers and students will want to know that , and my expectation is on them to be able to clearly communicate what elements will and will not be taken into consideration when awarding those grades . suzy davies am: that 's great . at least we covered it . thank you , minister—thank you , kirsty . lynne neagle am: and , just before we move on , have the universities across the uk indicated that they are content with this approach going forward—content to accept students on this basis ? kirsty williams am: certainly . there have been discussions with universities and ucas , of course , that this also has a bearing on . one of the— . and the views of university and how university terms might be impacted is one of the ways and one of the reasons that we 've factored in to making these decisions . those discussions with universities are ongoing , are n't they , huw ? huw morris: yes . so , we 've been in regular conversation with universities wales and through them with universities uk and we 've received every indication that the approach that 's been adopted here has been welcomed by the institutions . those conversations will continue as we work through the practicalities of how the gradings that are awarded are going to feed through into university admissions decisions and enrolment . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . well , we 've got some questions now from suzy on the potential closures of colleges and universities . suzy davies am: okay . well , it 's a very general question , really . i appreciate you 've already indicated there are lots of ongoing conversations , but my understanding is whether colleges or universities close is pretty much still at their own discretion . we 're going to be asking some questions on emergency legislation shortly , which may impact on the answer you can give today , but what sort of conversations are you having with fe and he at the moment about how they decide ? kirsty williams am: well , you 're absolutely right . as we often say in this committee , universities are autonomous institutions—a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question . universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them . colleges are in a similar position , looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods , and the bill , potentially , does give us more powers of intervention in both the fe and the he sector . suzy davies am: i might ask you about that in a minute , because i do n't even know what the bill says yet . kirsty williams am: huw , i do n't know if there 's anything you want to add . huw morris: no—just to confirm what 's been said and also to add in that independent training providers , similarly autonomous , like colleges and universities , have been moving in the same direction . we 've been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that 's been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies . we 've got consistency in the approach and a common desire , and investment in moving towards online support for students . suzy davies am: and there 's still this safety net idea . certainly , colleges have indicated , as with schools , that , for the most vulnerable learners , they 'll have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis . huw morris: that 's my understanding , yes , and , again , we 've been in regular conversation with them about that . my understanding is that they 're going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions . suzy davies am: that 's fair enough . and , presumably , education maintenance allowance will still be paid . kirsty williams am: yes . arrangements have been made to ensure that ema continues to be paid to all students who are entitled . suzy davies am: that 's right . you indicated that any welsh government support 's going to stay , whatever the circumstances are—in your portfolio . kirsty williams am: yes . i 'm doing my best , but it 's an absolute yes on the ema . there will be no disruption to ema . suzy davies am: okay . you might get some further questions on he and fe . lynne neagle am: yes . we 've got some further questions , indeed , from helen mary and then hefin . helen mary jones am: now or in a bit ? lynne neagle am: yes . helen mary jones am: just further to ema , of course , at the moment , that has an attendance qualification , does n't it ? and you do n't get your ema if you do n't turn up . should we take from your last answer that that attendance qualification does n't apply anymore ? kirsty williams am: yes . they ca n't turn up if the institution is not open , and that 's not their fault . helen mary jones am: no , but that is something that 's been a worry , so that 's really encouraging to hear . thinking about students in higher education , can you give an assurance that student maintenance payments will continue as normal ? is that the intention ? kirsty williams am: yes . helen mary jones am: that 's really good to hear . and have you given any special ministerial instruction to student finance wales on processing applications for support or changes of circumstances , or is that something that 's kind of ongoing at the moment ? kirsty williams am: those conversations are ongoing with the student loans company . as i said , we anticipate no disruption to— . we do n't anticipate any change in the approach to students as a result of this . individual student circumstances could well change and our expectation would be that the student loans company would respond to that . all i would say is , just to remind people : people who work for the student loans company are no more able to resist this disease than anybody else . there will undoubtedly in some cases be really practical challenges to service delivery , simply because organisations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they are reacting to social-distancing messages from the government . so , i think we just need to bear that in mind : that these organisations are doing their best , but , if they are badly affected by staff numbers being off because of the virus , then i hope people will give them due consideration . helen mary jones am: yes , that makes sense , of course , because we 've been told that universities wo n't be able to entirely close , because there will be students who ca n't go home— kirsty williams am: it is their home . helen mary jones am: —overseas students , for example . what discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students ' basic needs are met , that there 's still food , shelter , whatever they need ? kirsty williams am: well , obviously , universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances , and every conversation that huw 's been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that . huw morris: we instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease , not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in china and other parts of south-east asia . and so , as the disease has progressed , we 've seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the uk , and i am assured that the universities here in wales have got processes in place that support those learners . helen mary jones am: that 's really helpful . and on this specifically—last question from me— have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees , should the academic year not be completed ? huw morris: so , as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online , clearly , there are lessons that will need to be taken on board . there are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs . the intention in all of these institutions is that they will complete their course of study . there are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed . failing those institutional mechanisms , there is a uk-wide system through the office of the independent adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have . so , we 're confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs . lynne neagle am: okay . suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: no , mr morris has answered my question . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've got a couple more questions now on vulnerable learners . i 've got helen mary , then hefin . helen mary jones am: i think , chair , the minister has already answered what the— . but thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and well-being of staff and learners across a range of educational settings , or , indeed , young people who ca n't access educational settings , what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and well-being might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone ? kirsty williams am: yes , that is correct . so , our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure—which i think , if we 're honest , we have to acknowledge is what we 're looking at—we would expect school staff—well-being staff , for instance in school—to be doing check-ins—phone check-ins , potentially , or facetime check-ins , with students , just to keep in touch with them as we go forward . we 'll be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available—so , for instance , meic website—so , looking to use a variety of platforms . we do , of course , have the formal nhs counselling services . i 'm concerned , of course , that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school . we know that , and we 're just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists—online counselling tools that children already use because they do n't want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor . they 're already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue , as far as possible , those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered , and their worries . i think we have to remember that this is a really worrying time for children and young people . one of the reasons , again , that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible—and teachers have been working so hard to do that—is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we 've needed and wanted to maintain . children will have worries about their own health ; they 'll have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents ; they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves . so , we need to understand , and i think we will also have to recognise , that this support will have to be ongoing once we 're back to normal , and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience . they are incredibly resilient , and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages . they are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole 'washing your hands ' and things like that than even adults have been . so , they are incredibly resilient , but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them . helen mary jones am: can i just— ? just a supplementary to that—you 've mentioned already , kirsty , the importance of youth services , and , particularly thinking voluntarily youth services , you 've given the commitment , when were talking about mudiad ysgolion meithrin earlier , that services that are part-funded by grants through the welsh government , for example , thinking of the national youth voluntary service—will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well ? obviously , local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open , but , in terms of the direct support from welsh government , can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time ? kirsty williams am: no formal decision has been made , but if people are in receipt of a government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public— helen mary jones am: because it 's not safe . kirsty williams am: —because it 's not safe to do so , i do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying , 'we 'll have our money back , thank you very much . ' lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . helen mary jones am: that will make a lot of people happy , thank you . [ laughter . ] kirsty williams am: as i said , we are facing unprecedented circumstances . the normal rules of engagement have to change and , those organisations , we 'll need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal , and we would n't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that . our call to the youth service is a call to arms , though . when we 're trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for front-line staff children , they have a valuable role to play and i know that local government and the council for wales of voluntary youth services are already in discussion about how youth services— . many of our youth services work on an outreach basis . those traditional youth clubs , because of austerity , are not necessarily there anymore , so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work , and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier . helen mary jones am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin , briefly , and then we 're going to take one final question from suzy on emergency legislation . hefin david am: all right . i 'll declare an interest as a parent of a child with additional learning needs , although the question i 'm about to ask does n't reflect her interests . additional learning needs pupils who are waiting outcomes of referrals—if they 're currently waiting an outcome of a referral , will that process will be suspended or will it continue as normal ? and , if it is suspended , will it pick up where it left off from this point ? kirsty williams am: i think we have to recognise that the ability to deliver business as usual has been massively compromised . i 'm sure people will try and continue to do their normal activities and their normal jobs , but that might not be possible . i will have to check that , hefin , to be honest . i do n't want to give you any false assurance if , actually , the intelligence on the ground is that that simply will not be able to happen . but we don't— hefin david am: can we have a clear line on that ? kirsty williams am: we do n't want to jeopardise anybody , but as i said , some of the normal services are simply not available as everybody turns their attention to trying to respond to the pandemic . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . final question—because i know that the minister 's got a lot of things that she needs to get on with—from suzy on emergency legislation . suzy davies am: i 'm not going to ask you if you 'll use any powers you get under the emergency legislation , but are you able to give us some indication of what they might be ? kirsty williams am: sure . for instance , the bill will provide welsh ministers with powers to temporarily close schools or other educational institutions , childcare premises ; powers to give temporary continuity direction—so , actually , the other way around , force things to be open—and to be able to direct resources . so , that includes , as i said , i could direct something to stay open if that institution was trying to close down . the powers also give flexibility to maybe be able to direct staff to other institutions that they would not normally work in , if that was part of our resilience needs . we 'd also be looking at , for instance , relaxing requirements around ratios in childcare settings , or we might be wanting to do things around food . so , obviously , we have rules around the level of nutrition that schools should be giving their children . if there is a continuing role for schools in providing food , we might have to be a bit more flexible about what that might look like . so , those kinds of flexibilities—to be able to suspend things , direct things—that we would not normally have in normal circumstances . suzy davies am: okay . and just to finish this one off—you may not be able to answer this one , in all fairness—in those situations where it 's the government who says 'no ' to various things , does that then help people in the situation of dawn 's nursery , and insurance claims suddenly become more likely ? kirsty williams am: i 'm not an expert on insurance , and i do n't know if anybody here can help me . but what my understanding is , is that even where government has given a direction that does not necessarily mean that you will be covered by your insurance . what we 're finding in the private sector is that insurance companies are not paying out , because even when a government has directed it , they do not regard this as a disruption to business . so , the insurance industry is not my area of expertise . suzy davies am: no , no , i accept that . kirsty williams am: it 's not my area of expertise , but from what i understand from discussions around the cabinet table , this is particularly problematic . let me give you an example about how we 've been trying to overcome some of this—it feels like an awfully long time ago now— you 'll be aware that we gave directions earlier around cancellation of school trips abroad . trying to make sure that that direction came from the foreign and commonwealth office , rather than the department for education was a real battle , because again there were fears that , unless that advice came from the foreign and commonwealth office , insurance would not kick in , and that was a two-day discussion . suzy davies am: okay . this is helpful to know , actually . kirsty williams am: so , these are the kinds of things that we 're grappling with . but , as i said , thinking about it , that was only last week , but it feels like an aeon ago . suzy davies am: i 'm not holding you to that , but it helps us manage the questions we get asked . kirsty williams am: yes , but as i said , insurance is not my area of expertise . suzy davies am: no , but thank you for answering . lynne neagle am: okay . well , we 've come to the end of our time . can i thank you for attending this morning , and your officials ? we do recognise what an incredibly challenging time this is , and we 'd like to place on record our thanks to all of you for the work that you 're doing to try and see us through this crisis . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . thank you again , all of you , for your attendance . item 3 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

the answer was positive . the views of university and how university terms might be impacted was one of the ways and one of the reasons that they had factored in to making these decisions . the discussions with universities were ongoing . the conversations would continue as they work through the practicalities of how the gradings that were awarded were going to feed through into university admissions decisions and enrollment .

summarize the discussion about issues related to the potential closures of colleges and universities . </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . i 've received apologies for absence from siân gwenllian , and i 'm very pleased to welcome helen mary jones , who is substituting for siân today . can i ask whether members want to declare any interests , please ? can i just , then , place on record that i have got a son who was about to do a-levels , so is affected by the exam decision ? we 'll move on , then , to our substantive item today , which is an evidence session with the welsh government around the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on education in wales . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams , minister for education ; steve davies , who is director of the education directorate ; huw morris , who is the group director , skills , higher education and lifelong learning ; and rob orford , who is the chief scientific adviser for health . thank you all for coming . we know that this is a really difficult and pressurised time for everyone , and we appreciate your attendance . minister , i understand you wanted to make an opening statement today . kirsty williams am: yes , if that 's okay , chair . as you know , it 's not usually my practice to do that , but i think it is important today . covid-19 coronavirus is one of the most significant issues that the welsh government and the people of wales have dealt with in recent times . dealing with the impacts of this pandemic is extremely challenging . things are changing on an hourly basis , and we have to make decisions quickly to ensure public safety . but i would like to assure you that our aim , and my aim , and my main concern as the education minister is to protect all staff and pupils in our schools and other educational settings . but we also have a duty to ensure continuing and continuity of education . public health is clearly the priority here , but that does not change our belief that no child should miss out on any education , unless absolutely necessary . so , the decision to close all schools from tomorrow for statutory education provision was not taken lightly , but i believe it was necessary , given the advice and recommendations that we had received from a public health perspective and the situation that was developing on the ground . from next week , schools will have a new purpose . they will help support those most in need , including people involved in the immediate response to the coronavirus outbreak , and i 'm working with my colleagues in the cabinet , with government officials and our partners in local government to develop and finalise these plans . the key areas that we 're looking at are supporting and safeguarding the vulnerable and ensuring continuity of learning . this includes all of those who benefit from free school meals and children with additional learning needs . i can confirm that all maintained schools in wales already have access to a range of digital tools that can support distance learning through the world-class hwb digital learning platform , including virtual classrooms and video-conferencing facilities . a guide on what tools are available and how schools can use them has been developed and is being promoted widely . yesterday , i announced that , whilst there are no easy choices , we have agreed that the best way forward is not to proceed with the summer exam series . learners due to sit these exams will be awarded a fair grade to recognise their work , drawing on a range of information that is available , and i will announce further details shortly , but i felt it necessary to give early certainty to students and to staff . i would like to put on record my thanks to everyone working in education settings for the hard work that they have put in over the last few months in dealing with the virus and ensuring that pupils have been able to continue to learn . we need to continue to do this work together , as we face the continuing challenges posed by the coronavirus . diolch yn fawr . lynne neagle am: thank you very much , minister , for that statement . we 'll go to questions from members now , and i 've got some questions from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . can i thank you , kirsty , for your statement and the really difficult decisions that you 've been having to make ? you 've already indicated in your statement this morning that these decisions are not taken lightly , and we understand that that is the case across government . so , thank you for what you 've been doing . you 've outlined a little bit further there in your statement to us this morning about the new purpose . i take from what you 're saying that you have n't really developed that yet in terms of exactly what that is going to look like . you 've talked about the children of key workers , free school meals , additional learning needs . is there anything else you can tell us about that at the moment and how you might staff the schools in those particular areas ? kirsty williams am: thank you , dawn . so , you're absolutely right , our priority now is to operationalise , with colleagues in local government and schools , a practical response . and i have to say , we 're working to timescales that i would have hoped to have avoided , but given the fact that we 're having to make these decisions quite quickly , i hope that you will understand that perhaps where we start on monday might change when we have more time and more opportunities to develop programmes going forward . steve will be able to give you more details of the practical work that has already been going on , but our expectation will be that schools will be playing an important part in providing safe and secure places for children of those on the front-line response to dealing with the coronavirus to attend , and work is already under way with local authorities and individual schools on what that will look like for the emergency situation on monday . our other priority is indeed free school meals , and , again , where we eventually end up might be a different place to where we are on monday . again , we 're responding to the emergency situation that there will be families that were expecting a free school meal on monday , and , again , individual schools and local authorities are developing those plans at pace to be able to provide an emergency response as we work out a longer term plan to deal with the situation . the same thing also goes for additional learning needs , and attending to the needs of that particular group of learners . so , those conversations began a few days ago . i had the opportunity to meet with the first minister and andrew morgan , the leader of the welsh local government association , yesterday to talk about what local government could do , and what they were already doing . those plans in some places are already quite developed , and are now working at pace , but i hope you will understand that where we start on monday is the emergency response , and that work will develop as we go forward . but , steve , perhaps you could— ? because steve was the one making all those phone calls and doing the practical operational stuff , rather than me . steve . steve davies: in short , the new purpose is to meet the needs of particular groups of children and young people . in some cases , some of the response to supporting free school meals , in the short term in particular , we may use the schools as part of that , and i 'm certain that will happen in some cases . the second area is looking at how we support the children of key workers . now , there is still work to be done on identifying exactly the categories of key workers , but i think it 's really encouraging that in my discussions yesterday—i spoke with all 22 directors of education , and the examples we 're picking up in their work with schools is they 're already ahead of the curve in working with schools . so , schools have identified the number of children with health workers . it will grow , and we will need to look at that range . then , the third area is vulnerable children . they 're vulnerable sometimes in terms of education other than at school , vulnerable in terms of mental health , and for those children , as well as having an experience that we want to be planned , some have compared it to a snow day , particularly on monday , when you 're putting something together in the short term , but it will not be a formal curriculum that those children would normally go through . so , the range of activities—some will be focused on educational activities , some will be cultural , some will be sporting , and that plan will be developed on the basis of the age range of children , which in some cases may go from extremely young children up to those at the age of 16 in our all-through schools , but there will be a planned set of activities to cater for those children . what we are doing currently—i have staff back at cathays park who are in touch and working with directors of education to ensure that schools over the next two days will have been able to identify , at least at the earlier stage , in terms of health workers , the type and numbers of people . there are already schools who have informed us , and local authorities , of their plans for these activities to be starting next week , which is quite amazing , actually , given where we are . but we are expecting , and we 're writing to schools today , that during the course of next week , headteachers to be in schools , and with their staff , taking into consideration the health guidance as to which staff should or should not be in , and in that period from next monday through the two-week period , to easter , we expect staff to be both planning for delivery post easter , but also , as i said , building on and reflecting the good practice that 's already in place for schools that have engaged in activities , and i 'm sure a number of them will be inviting and enabling those children to come in on monday . so , monday will be a challenge for some , and not all will be delivering it , but we will be working so that we can get as much as possible delivered for those groups over the next two weeks , and particularly to have resilient programmes post easter for the groups of children in those three categories that i said . dawn bowden am: those that have been identified . can i just clarify one thing ? one of the identified vulnerable groups would clearly be children on the at-risk register . they would be included . steve davies: yes , definitely . vulnerable children , yes . kirsty williams am: in our discussions , we have asked local government to be working with the social services departments and individual schools to identify those children who may be in that situation . we know that , for some children , being at school is part of their safeguarding arrangements , and obviously we will need to be able to respond to those needs . steve davies: i wrote specifically yesterday to all directors of education to be assured that , for those children , the register is up to date and the plans are in place . i 'm working with albert heaney my colleague , the director for social services , who is meeting with the 22 directors of social services today to look to ensure that we are joined up in ensuring none of these children fall through the gap . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got a supplementary from hefin , and then suzy . hefin david am: a very quick and simple question : how are you going to communicate this to parents ? there 's a bigger picture and it 's changing all the time , as you said . the welsh government have a route to communication . the most helpful thing i 've seen is that public health wales have a single website with information regarding the wider issue of the virus . how will this then be cascaded to schools , because there 's obviously a time lag ? so , have you considered how this is going to be communicated directly to parents ? kirsty williams am: we 're using all of our platforms of communication to get these messages across . so , we 're using the more informal methods of communication , but are relying on a systematic approach via individual directors and through to individual schools . welsh government already has a dedicated website page with all of the relevant information about coronavirus . we 're looking , as quickly as we can , to have a frequently asked education questions page that we can update . understandably , people are communicating to us on twitter asking questions . it is impossible for the communications team here to be able to respond individually to every single person that is sending facebook messages and sending tweets , so the best way we can do that is to collate the types of questions people are asking and then to be able to have a frequently updated question and answer page to try to respond to that . with regard to parents , for instance , we 're aware of schools that have already sent a questionnaire out last night to parents saying , 'do you consider yourself to be a key worker ? do you work in the nhs ? please let us know by tomorrow so we can put arrangements in place for your children . ' so , schools are already taking the initiative and having those conversations with parents about what their needs will be . and , as i said , hefin , will it be perfect on monday ? no . it wo n't be perfect by monday , because we 're working to such constrained timescales . but we will continue to build that resilience . we also have to think about systems that look at what might the epidemic do and have systems of resilience that may work next week , given the situation we find ourselves in with public health advice at the moment . but that public health advice may change . therefore , have we got a system that will be resilient in those circumstances ? these are some of the challenges that we 're having to grapple with . so , as i said , what happens on monday might look very different to where we are if schools are still off in may . so , i hope people will understand that we are working in those kinds of scenarios . lynne neagle am: suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: yes , just on this question of vulnerable children , i 'm just wondering how much discretion teachers are going to have in including individual children who may not be obviously under social services ' care or on a risk register or whatever . teachers know their pupils and , very sensitively , they could include people who may not be obviously in need . kirsty williams am: we would absolutely respect the professional judgment of individual headteachers to be able to have those conversations with their directors . as you said , quite rightly , they are the individuals who know their children best and know which children , perhaps , will need this extra support . we will put no constraints on those teachers trying to do that work . suzy davies am: okay . the second part of my question is : there were going to be easter holidays anyway , were n't there ? what was going to happen about free-school-meal children during that period ? has that gone out of the window now , the normal holiday provision for children ? because that 's not there normally , is it , except in separate— kirsty williams am: we do find ourselves in a strange situation . my understanding is what we 're trying to work to is that we would have ongoing provision and not to make some strange , 'you get this for two weeks , then you do n't get it for two weeks , and then you 're back in . ' my understanding is , in england , that is what they 're going to do . we 're trying to create a system where it will be seamless and it will not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays . it wo n't matter to those nurses and doctors who will need to be in work during those weeks . we 're trying to create a system that will run uniformly . that 's our policy goal at the moment . lynne neagle am: helen mary . helen mary jones am: just briefly , building on suzy 's question , one particular group of children and young people that i hope will be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category is young carers . for some of them , they may not be able to come into school because the people they 're caring for may have to be excluded because of their conditions . but i think that , for other young carers , coming to school is an absolute lifeline , because they 're working at home . so , i do n't know if it 's appropriate for you to specifically mention those in discussions with local authorities , but it 's a group of young people who , again , may not be vulnerable in other ways , but because of their caring responsibilities they may need school . and the other group—and this , i suppose , goes back to suzy 's point about teachers knowing their young people—is the children who may be living in situations where they 're at risk of witnessing domestic abuse . again , these may very well not be children who are in any formal contact with social services , but being at home may be really not a good place for them to be . so , again , i 'd put in an appeal for that to be something that perhaps can be raised with schools . if a teacher is worried about what a child 's circumstances are like at home , whether they can be , as you said , kirsty , included as one of the— . they may not be formally identified , but if the teacher knows that they 're at risk , or there is an instinct that they 're at risk , they might be able to be included in children who are allowed to take advantage of this special provision you 're making at this difficult time . kirsty williams am: we will certainly raise those issues . we have to do that in the context of what is deliverable , and we also have to do that in the context of the public health advice that we are receiving as well . one of the reasons why schools are closing is to help manage this disease . we know that the ability for school closures to make a contribution to that diminishes if we have significant children in school still . so , we will take these issues into consideration , but remembering this is part of an epidemic mitigation plan . rob is the expert on that , not me . rob orford: yes , absolutely . this is a rapidly-evolving problem and the scale is something that we have n't seen in 100 years , and so we 're having to evolve and iterate things as we go . next week , i think , will look different to this week . so , it kind of is what it is . we 've all got a role to play , and schools certainly have a significant role to play in breaking those chains of transmission . areas that we 're worried about are displacement activities . if we close the schools , then people collect at others ' houses . we need to send a really clear message that you 're all part of the solution , and the things that you do by distancing yourselves from your friends and your family are really important for us to get on top of this outbreak . the more that we can do that , the easier it will be when we go forward . helen mary jones am: i 'm sure that that 's true , but i 'm sure that we would n't be wanting a child who 's in a very pressured environment with perhaps a very difficult relationship between mum and dad— . it may be very important for those children to be out of that for some of the time . hopefully , we 're talking about relatively small numbers , but i just— . kirsty williams am: we will look at vulnerability in a holistic way . lynne neagle am: janet , you had a supplementary . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair , and good morning , minister , and your team . can i just put on record my thanks for all that you 're having to endure at this moment ? i think it 's fair to say you have the support of assembly members and , indeed , our communities . now , the question i have : if cylch meithrin have to close , where will they get money from to pay their staff ? because , currently , thankfully , there 's support for businesses . lynne neagle am: janet , we 're not doing cylch meithrin at the moment ; we are sticking with schools , as we discussed in advance . dawn . dawn bowden am: can i just get some clarity , steve , around what you were saying in terms of next week ? because i think the practical applications of this—and i understand that you do n't know all of this yet , i understand that—the practical applications are what is coming to us , obviously , with constituents saying , 'well , what 's going to happen to that ? ' just so that i can be clear , are you saying that , at this stage , every headteacher will be in school on monday , as will all their staff ? steve davies: within the scope of the guidance in terms of their health , the expectation—and this will be conveyed in letters by the minister today , to be made clear—is that they are closing for the majority of pupils , but our expectation within the guidance is that the headteacher with their staff will be coming in ; for some to start the delivery of what we just described , but that will probably be small numbers , but more importantly to plan to ensure that , after the formal easter period , which is school holidays , the schools are geared to cater for the range of pupils that we 've been discussing . dawn bowden am: so , would you anticipate—again , i know this is all a bit 'if and when ' , and it depends on the changing nature of the advice , but from what you 're saying , i think we can probably anticipate that , as we go forward , there will probably be fewer schools opening and operable—that we may be moving those children on to fewer sites . would that possibly— ? kirsty williams am: that is a potential . so , we already know that one of our local authorities already has identified a strategic pattern of schools that they will want to operate in this way . that local authority has already chosen those locations , and is already having communications with how they will then staff those centres . so , that could well— . that , i expect , in the longer term , will be the nature of the provision that we will get to . but that 's not for us to dictate . the local authorities are best placed to understand what is the best , pragmatic use of the resources that they have available ; and of course those resources , primarily , are human beings . so , we 've talked a lot this morning in the context of teaching staff , teaching assistants , but we 're also having discussions with local authorities , and i met with the council for wales of voluntary youth services this week , to look at deploying youth workers , to look to be deploying other staff that the local authority may employ , like sports development officers . there may be cultural officers that can have something to offer . welsh government will be talking with a range of our partners who perhaps their normal activities ca n't continue at the moment , but actually have personnel who want to add to this effort , who want to be able to be part of a provision going forward in the longer term , to be able to provide a great place for children to be . we want to give parents , who we are asking— . let 's think about it , in these worst of times , we 're asking parents to leave their children so that they can go and do essential work , and some of that essential work is putting themselves at risk , potentially . and we want to give those parents confidence that , when they leave their child with us , that child will receive something really worthwhile , and they can direct all of their attention to doing their job . lynne neagle am: just before you— . janet , have you got a supplementary on schools now , not on early years settings ? janet finch-saunders am: i lost the signal before , so it 's a little bit confusing at this end , so bear with me . just in terms of the closure of schools , i have been asked by teachers what does new purpose—you may have covered it , but bear in mind [ inaudible . ] —mean in practice . and also , they 're already asking what will next— ? i know you said earlier that next week could look and probably will look significantly different than this week , but what can they expect to be happening next week in terms of this new purpose work ? lynne neagle am: we 've covered that , janet . kirsty williams am: first of all , janet , i just want to say thank you very much for your kind comments . that 's really , really kind of you . we will be sending a letter today to clarify those positions . so , each school will receive letters today about the expectations of schools next week . lynne neagle am: i think you 're having trouble hearing us , are n't you , so i think— ? janet finch-saunders am: no , i heard that loud and clear . lynne neagle am: but i think you missed the earlier comments , when we went into some detail on the new purpose of schools . so , i 'm sorry about that ; we are having some problems with the connection . janet finch-saunders am: yes , we could n't get a signal . lynne neagle am: dawn . dawn bowden am: just in relation to special schools and how they will fit into this new purpose arrangement . kirsty williams am: yes , they 're absolutely central to that planning . we know , again , that some of these children are our most vulnerable and they are some of our most pressurised families . therefore , the same situation that we 've just described for maintained schools also applies to special schools . we 'll be having discussions about what arrangements can be made for those children within their own usual settings . in some cases , that may not be possible . so , again , already local authorities are making different provision . can i give a shout out to the work of rhondda cynon taf in this regard , who are already doing some excellent work with regard to how they can keep in touch with their children who usually would attend their special schools . but , again , steve can give more detail . steve davies: i think special schools have already been hit by this challenge , because a significant proportion of their children , because of their conditions , have not been coming to school , they 've been isolated . but the principle we 've used there is , actually , even if it 's a minority of children who go to those schools and are vulnerable , they deserve and need that support through the school . so , we would expect that to function with the focus on vulnerable children . but similarly , even in special schools , there will be children whose parents will be key workers , so we would expect them to apply that same principle . just quickly in response to the earlier question , while we may bring some groups of children into separate schools , we ’ ll have to continue with the principle of keeping social distance and any provision for a child in a special school in a different setting would be unlikely , given the nature of the special school , so we would look to cater for that within the original school . dawn bowden am: just a couple more questions from me . it ’ s likely , because i know it has already happened , that some schools might actually close before monday . some schools have already partially closed . are you quite happy that headteachers still have the discretion to do that , if they feel that ’ s the right thing to do ? kirsty williams am: in this situation , the discretion of the head still remains . as i said , we will be communicating with all schools today about our expectations , if at all possible , to have schools open for staff to do some of this planning and to be able to respond to these priority needs that we 've just talked about . steve davies: the rationale of headteachers for closing schools up to now has been that they ca n't cope with the safety of the children . i think , moving forward , it 's unlikely that that would be a rationale that headteachers would want to use for not engaging and planning for the future . dawn bowden am: we 're only talking about one more day , now , anyway , are n't we ? so , just in terms of confirmed cases in schools , is your view at this stage that , if there is a confirmed case in a school , once that school has been deep-cleaned , it can reopen again ? kirsty williams am: if we had a confirmed case in a school , then all the usual mechanisms arranged by public health wales would kick in at that point . dawn bowden am: okay . and my final question is in relation to the position of early years and childcare settings . i know that kind of crosses over into somebody else 's portfolio as well , but i think we know that . certainly what i 've seen , and i 'm sure this is true elsewhere as well , we 've seen nurseries closing down because the parents are actually taking the children out of those nurseries . i 've got one in particular , there are kids from the ages of 6 to 12 years in there , and the parents are taking them out . they 've got 30 staff there , catering for 200 children and no children to care for and the organisation , at this stage , is unable to claim on their insurance for the ongoing payment of those staff wages . is there any advice that we can give to people in that situation at this stage ? kirsty williams am: sure . as you say , many of these settings are businesses—people 's businesses and they play a hugely important role and it 's a very worrying time for them . we have said that we will continue to pay for childcare , delivered under the childcare offer even when a child is unable , or a parent is unwilling , to take up that place . so , if that setting is receiving a childcare payment from the welsh government as part of our childcare offer , that will be paid , regardless of whether that child attends or not . and i know that we 're also working with local authorities to ensure a similar position on flying start childcare and early education . so , that payment will be made , regardless of whether a child is attending . it 's also important that childcare settings will be able to apply for the various packages of support that are being made available by my colleague , ken skates . lynne neagle am: hefin , then janet . hefin david am: yes , i 'd just like to turn that around from the parents ' point of view . with schools closing , there are a lot of parents then losing 10 hours of free childcare , but from a settings point of view , they 'll continue to be able to receive , for the time being , the nursery care . kirsty williams am: yes , so the decision that has been taken by my colleague , julie morgan , is that settings should stay open at the moment unless public health changes . that 's being kept under constant review on public health . again , the issue is that we know that that childcare is vital to many families , especially—and we 're particularly concerned about those individuals who are trying to help us overcome and solve these problems . if you have any specific questions about that , we 'll be happy to take them back to julie morgan . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: is this the cylch question ? lynne neagle am: yes , please . janet finch-saunders am: sorry , thank you . yes , just basically , cylch meithrin , there are concerns— [ interruption . ] lynne neagle am: we 've lost janet . we 'll come back to her . kirsty williams am: i think if the issue is about funding for cylch meithrin , these are not normal circumstances . as a welsh government , we will take every step to provide continuity of funding , if at all possible . we will overcome this , and when we overcome this situation we find ourselves in , we will need those childcare settings , we will need those private businesses and we will need our cylch meithrin to be there to respond and to be able to go on doing the job that they usually do for us . and if there is any way that we can , as a government , ensure that that happens by carrying on funding things , even if they are not able to run , all usual— [ inaudible . ] — around service-level agreements are off . i 'm not setting the precedent—let me make that absolutely clear . [ laughter . ] but , you know , we will not undermine businesses and voluntary provision like cylch by withdrawing welsh government funding . i hope i 've been clear . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you for that . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , kirsty . lynne neagle am: if we can move on to talk about exams , obviously you made the announcement yesterday . i completely understand that everything is a very fast-moving situation , but , as you know , there are a lot of questions that people have about young people who 've put a lot of work in . are you able to tell us any more today ? in particular , have you got any idea about timescales now for setting out what the approach will be to handling the lack of summer exams ? kirsty williams am: yes , it is a devastating decision to have to have been taken , but i have done so on the very , very clear and unambiguous advice from qualifications wales . i met with qualifications wales and the wjec yesterday . what was most important to them was that i made an early decision and i did not equivocate on what would happen for the exams . i was able to make an informal decision at that meeting , and then , of course , there is a formal process that we have to go through . that , now , allows qualifications wales and the exam board to operationalise that decision , and they will be communicating with schools as quickly as possible about what schools will need to do to ensure that the systems that they will now put in place can work . we are trying , as far as we can , as i understand it , to be able to mirror as closely as possible the usual results day , for instance . it might not be possible , because , of course , we 're dealing with a situation that requires human beings to be involved in it , and those human beings could find themselves unwell . so , our best attempts will be to maintain the normal rhythm of an exams day in august , but that has to be caveated by the fact that we 're dealing with difficult circumstances . but , the wjec and qualifications wales will be making urgent communications to exam centres to explain what will need to happen next . lynne neagle am: okay . janet , you had a question on this . janet finch-saunders am: yes , i think i raised it yesterday , kirsty , but you were receiving loads of questions . i 'd just ask for some further clarification about coursework , because only 30 per cent of that is done . years 11 and 13 , typically , in my case they 're what 's been raised with me—do you have any advice for them ? kirsty williams am: okay , so , all exams are cancelled , but year 11 and year 13 will be given a grade—i think that 's a distinction that people need to be aware of . that is because those years and those grades are gateway qualifications , and they are points of movement in the education system . so , it 's really important for those students that they are not disadvantaged in any way by not being able to receive a grade that helps them to make a decision as a qualifying step into what they will do next , whether that be university , whether that be a degree apprenticeship or whether that be going into sixth form , into a college , into an apprenticeship or into some work-based learning opportunities . that 's why we have to focus on those children , because for them , it is absolutely critical that we do . we are at an advantage in wales , can i say ? because of the nature of our examination system , those students already have a lot of externally assessed work that we can use as a basis to move forward on . because we 've kept our as-levels , we have got that data . because we have a gcse system— . our year 11s , if they 're doing triple science , they 've already done 40 per cent of their paper , so we 're very fortunate . because of the structures that we have got in our qualification system , there is already lots and lots of externally-verified work that we can use , alongside , potentially , teacher evaluation of students as well . and i think that 's really important . we ’ re starting from a better base than simply having none of that externally-verified data . what will also be important is that these children have confidence in those qualifications , and so we will be looking at a modulated arrangement within wales , and i know that qualifications wales are discussing with their counterparts across the uk a modulated system across the uk . so , actually , we can make sure that our standards are maintained by actually having that modulation across the uk . so , we know that those children never have to worry about the rigour that has gone into determining that grade . so , they can have real confidence . lynne neagle am: okay . helen mary . helen mary jones am: thank you . a supplementary question that might feed into that moderation . you 'll know that the national union of students has suggested that black and minority ethnic children and children from the working class , on the whole , do n't do as well , in terms of their assessment by their own teachers . i do n't know what their evidence is for that . we also know , of course , that boys tend to do better in exams , and girls tend to do better at coursework , for whatever reason that is . so , just to ask you at this early stage to build in those considerations around potential unconscious bias into that overall system that you 're talking about . and , of course , you are right to say that , because we have got some elements of external moderation here , those factors may be less for us in wales than they might for colleagues in england . kirsty williams am: yes , i think we are starting at a different base , thank goodness . so , you 're quite right . as i said , students will have done unit 1 papers last year if they 're gcse students . dare i say it , some might even have done early entry . so , we still have elements of coursework that are externally verified . so , children might well have done lots of oral exams in their english and in their welsh language . so , we have lots of pieces of work that will have been externally verified . i certainly will ensure that these concerns are passed on . i 'm sure that qualifications wales are thinking about it . i have every confidence that they and the wjec will come up with a very comprehensive way of establishing those grades , but i have to say , in some ways , i have to step back now , because you would not expect me , in normal circumstances , to dictate to the wjec how much percentage goes for that , and how much percentage is allocated for that ; that would not be appropriate for a minister . my job is to make the decision on the examinations on the basis of having confidence that what can be put in place is fair and is equitable , and i have confidence that that will be the case . helen mary jones am: thank you . lynne neagle am: suzy . suzy davies am: a few things from me . one is , obviously , pupils are being asked to work at home as well now , some of whom will be doing gcse and a-level courses . so , there 's just a question , generally , from me— because we 're encouraging these kids to carry on working—how that will be accommodated by qualifications wales , i guess , in this modulation process . it may be that your at-home work will be of a higher standard or a lower standard than a teacher would be expecting . secondly , you mentioned the as-levels , of course , as being of value at the moment , but we 've got people in year 12 who now wo n't be doing their ass . is there any steer at this stage about what they will be expected to do ? will they be doing two sets of exams next year , for example ? or is as just off the table ? in which case , how are the a2s going to be calculated in due course ? and then , finally from me , we do have some vocational qualifications that are up for examination as well—your btecs , and i think it 's the association of accounting technicians , which is a lot of computer-based learning—which is due to be examined within three weeks . those aren ’ t a-levels or gcses . i appreciate that you may not have the answer just at the moment , but are they off as well is the question , i guess ? kirsty williams am: with regard to as-levels—no final decision has been made for exactly how those students will be treated . there are a range of options that could be used , but again , we will want to be thinking about student well-being , fairness and equity in that regard , and i will update members as soon as i have received definitive advice from qualifications wales around that , and that has n't happened yet . with regard to other types of qualifications , as you will be aware , the vast majority of btecs is a modular , continually-assessed piece of work , and we would have every expectation that btecs will be able to be awarded , but clearly , those conversations are with awarding bodies—they tend to be uk awarding bodies , rather then necessarily our wjec exam board—and those conversations are ongoing . but i have every expectation that those qualifications will be awarded and , of course , because of their nature there 's even more evidence of continued assessment . huw , i do n't know if there 's anything else that you would like to add about those types of qualifications . huw morris: no . i think you 've covered most of it . i do n't have a definitive answer for the att qualification , but we can look into that and come back to you . suzy davies am: well , i 've just had a constituent ask , so that would be very helpful . and homeworking— kirsty williams am: homeworking , right . suzy davies am: —is that going to count towards the assessments , overall assessments ? kirsty williams am: well , potentially , as i said . i do n't know the exact elements . what will be absolutely necessary is that qualifications wales and the wjec will be able to give absolute clarity and simplicity around how those grades will be arrived at , because parents , teachers and students will want to know that , and my expectation is on them to be able to clearly communicate what elements will and will not be taken into consideration when awarding those grades . suzy davies am: that 's great . at least we covered it . thank you , minister—thank you , kirsty . lynne neagle am: and , just before we move on , have the universities across the uk indicated that they are content with this approach going forward—content to accept students on this basis ? kirsty williams am: certainly . there have been discussions with universities and ucas , of course , that this also has a bearing on . one of the— . and the views of university and how university terms might be impacted is one of the ways and one of the reasons that we 've factored in to making these decisions . those discussions with universities are ongoing , are n't they , huw ? huw morris: yes . so , we 've been in regular conversation with universities wales and through them with universities uk and we 've received every indication that the approach that 's been adopted here has been welcomed by the institutions . those conversations will continue as we work through the practicalities of how the gradings that are awarded are going to feed through into university admissions decisions and enrolment . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . well , we 've got some questions now from suzy on the potential closures of colleges and universities . suzy davies am: okay . well , it 's a very general question , really . i appreciate you 've already indicated there are lots of ongoing conversations , but my understanding is whether colleges or universities close is pretty much still at their own discretion . we 're going to be asking some questions on emergency legislation shortly , which may impact on the answer you can give today , but what sort of conversations are you having with fe and he at the moment about how they decide ? kirsty williams am: well , you 're absolutely right . as we often say in this committee , universities are autonomous institutions—a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question . universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them . colleges are in a similar position , looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods , and the bill , potentially , does give us more powers of intervention in both the fe and the he sector . suzy davies am: i might ask you about that in a minute , because i do n't even know what the bill says yet . kirsty williams am: huw , i do n't know if there 's anything you want to add . huw morris: no—just to confirm what 's been said and also to add in that independent training providers , similarly autonomous , like colleges and universities , have been moving in the same direction . we 've been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that 's been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies . we 've got consistency in the approach and a common desire , and investment in moving towards online support for students . suzy davies am: and there 's still this safety net idea . certainly , colleges have indicated , as with schools , that , for the most vulnerable learners , they 'll have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis . huw morris: that 's my understanding , yes , and , again , we 've been in regular conversation with them about that . my understanding is that they 're going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions . suzy davies am: that 's fair enough . and , presumably , education maintenance allowance will still be paid . kirsty williams am: yes . arrangements have been made to ensure that ema continues to be paid to all students who are entitled . suzy davies am: that 's right . you indicated that any welsh government support 's going to stay , whatever the circumstances are—in your portfolio . kirsty williams am: yes . i 'm doing my best , but it 's an absolute yes on the ema . there will be no disruption to ema . suzy davies am: okay . you might get some further questions on he and fe . lynne neagle am: yes . we 've got some further questions , indeed , from helen mary and then hefin . helen mary jones am: now or in a bit ? lynne neagle am: yes . helen mary jones am: just further to ema , of course , at the moment , that has an attendance qualification , does n't it ? and you do n't get your ema if you do n't turn up . should we take from your last answer that that attendance qualification does n't apply anymore ? kirsty williams am: yes . they ca n't turn up if the institution is not open , and that 's not their fault . helen mary jones am: no , but that is something that 's been a worry , so that 's really encouraging to hear . thinking about students in higher education , can you give an assurance that student maintenance payments will continue as normal ? is that the intention ? kirsty williams am: yes . helen mary jones am: that 's really good to hear . and have you given any special ministerial instruction to student finance wales on processing applications for support or changes of circumstances , or is that something that 's kind of ongoing at the moment ? kirsty williams am: those conversations are ongoing with the student loans company . as i said , we anticipate no disruption to— . we do n't anticipate any change in the approach to students as a result of this . individual student circumstances could well change and our expectation would be that the student loans company would respond to that . all i would say is , just to remind people : people who work for the student loans company are no more able to resist this disease than anybody else . there will undoubtedly in some cases be really practical challenges to service delivery , simply because organisations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they are reacting to social-distancing messages from the government . so , i think we just need to bear that in mind : that these organisations are doing their best , but , if they are badly affected by staff numbers being off because of the virus , then i hope people will give them due consideration . helen mary jones am: yes , that makes sense , of course , because we 've been told that universities wo n't be able to entirely close , because there will be students who ca n't go home— kirsty williams am: it is their home . helen mary jones am: —overseas students , for example . what discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students ' basic needs are met , that there 's still food , shelter , whatever they need ? kirsty williams am: well , obviously , universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances , and every conversation that huw 's been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that . huw morris: we instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease , not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in china and other parts of south-east asia . and so , as the disease has progressed , we 've seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the uk , and i am assured that the universities here in wales have got processes in place that support those learners . helen mary jones am: that 's really helpful . and on this specifically—last question from me— have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees , should the academic year not be completed ? huw morris: so , as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online , clearly , there are lessons that will need to be taken on board . there are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs . the intention in all of these institutions is that they will complete their course of study . there are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed . failing those institutional mechanisms , there is a uk-wide system through the office of the independent adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have . so , we 're confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs . lynne neagle am: okay . suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: no , mr morris has answered my question . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've got a couple more questions now on vulnerable learners . i 've got helen mary , then hefin . helen mary jones am: i think , chair , the minister has already answered what the— . but thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and well-being of staff and learners across a range of educational settings , or , indeed , young people who ca n't access educational settings , what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and well-being might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone ? kirsty williams am: yes , that is correct . so , our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure—which i think , if we 're honest , we have to acknowledge is what we 're looking at—we would expect school staff—well-being staff , for instance in school—to be doing check-ins—phone check-ins , potentially , or facetime check-ins , with students , just to keep in touch with them as we go forward . we 'll be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available—so , for instance , meic website—so , looking to use a variety of platforms . we do , of course , have the formal nhs counselling services . i 'm concerned , of course , that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school . we know that , and we 're just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists—online counselling tools that children already use because they do n't want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor . they 're already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue , as far as possible , those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered , and their worries . i think we have to remember that this is a really worrying time for children and young people . one of the reasons , again , that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible—and teachers have been working so hard to do that—is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we 've needed and wanted to maintain . children will have worries about their own health ; they 'll have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents ; they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves . so , we need to understand , and i think we will also have to recognise , that this support will have to be ongoing once we 're back to normal , and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience . they are incredibly resilient , and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages . they are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole 'washing your hands ' and things like that than even adults have been . so , they are incredibly resilient , but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them . helen mary jones am: can i just— ? just a supplementary to that—you 've mentioned already , kirsty , the importance of youth services , and , particularly thinking voluntarily youth services , you 've given the commitment , when were talking about mudiad ysgolion meithrin earlier , that services that are part-funded by grants through the welsh government , for example , thinking of the national youth voluntary service—will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well ? obviously , local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open , but , in terms of the direct support from welsh government , can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time ? kirsty williams am: no formal decision has been made , but if people are in receipt of a government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public— helen mary jones am: because it 's not safe . kirsty williams am: —because it 's not safe to do so , i do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying , 'we 'll have our money back , thank you very much . ' lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . helen mary jones am: that will make a lot of people happy , thank you . [ laughter . ] kirsty williams am: as i said , we are facing unprecedented circumstances . the normal rules of engagement have to change and , those organisations , we 'll need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal , and we would n't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that . our call to the youth service is a call to arms , though . when we 're trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for front-line staff children , they have a valuable role to play and i know that local government and the council for wales of voluntary youth services are already in discussion about how youth services— . many of our youth services work on an outreach basis . those traditional youth clubs , because of austerity , are not necessarily there anymore , so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work , and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier . helen mary jones am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin , briefly , and then we 're going to take one final question from suzy on emergency legislation . hefin david am: all right . i 'll declare an interest as a parent of a child with additional learning needs , although the question i 'm about to ask does n't reflect her interests . additional learning needs pupils who are waiting outcomes of referrals—if they 're currently waiting an outcome of a referral , will that process will be suspended or will it continue as normal ? and , if it is suspended , will it pick up where it left off from this point ? kirsty williams am: i think we have to recognise that the ability to deliver business as usual has been massively compromised . i 'm sure people will try and continue to do their normal activities and their normal jobs , but that might not be possible . i will have to check that , hefin , to be honest . i do n't want to give you any false assurance if , actually , the intelligence on the ground is that that simply will not be able to happen . but we don't— hefin david am: can we have a clear line on that ? kirsty williams am: we do n't want to jeopardise anybody , but as i said , some of the normal services are simply not available as everybody turns their attention to trying to respond to the pandemic . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . final question—because i know that the minister 's got a lot of things that she needs to get on with—from suzy on emergency legislation . suzy davies am: i 'm not going to ask you if you 'll use any powers you get under the emergency legislation , but are you able to give us some indication of what they might be ? kirsty williams am: sure . for instance , the bill will provide welsh ministers with powers to temporarily close schools or other educational institutions , childcare premises ; powers to give temporary continuity direction—so , actually , the other way around , force things to be open—and to be able to direct resources . so , that includes , as i said , i could direct something to stay open if that institution was trying to close down . the powers also give flexibility to maybe be able to direct staff to other institutions that they would not normally work in , if that was part of our resilience needs . we 'd also be looking at , for instance , relaxing requirements around ratios in childcare settings , or we might be wanting to do things around food . so , obviously , we have rules around the level of nutrition that schools should be giving their children . if there is a continuing role for schools in providing food , we might have to be a bit more flexible about what that might look like . so , those kinds of flexibilities—to be able to suspend things , direct things—that we would not normally have in normal circumstances . suzy davies am: okay . and just to finish this one off—you may not be able to answer this one , in all fairness—in those situations where it 's the government who says 'no ' to various things , does that then help people in the situation of dawn 's nursery , and insurance claims suddenly become more likely ? kirsty williams am: i 'm not an expert on insurance , and i do n't know if anybody here can help me . but what my understanding is , is that even where government has given a direction that does not necessarily mean that you will be covered by your insurance . what we 're finding in the private sector is that insurance companies are not paying out , because even when a government has directed it , they do not regard this as a disruption to business . so , the insurance industry is not my area of expertise . suzy davies am: no , no , i accept that . kirsty williams am: it 's not my area of expertise , but from what i understand from discussions around the cabinet table , this is particularly problematic . let me give you an example about how we 've been trying to overcome some of this—it feels like an awfully long time ago now— you 'll be aware that we gave directions earlier around cancellation of school trips abroad . trying to make sure that that direction came from the foreign and commonwealth office , rather than the department for education was a real battle , because again there were fears that , unless that advice came from the foreign and commonwealth office , insurance would not kick in , and that was a two-day discussion . suzy davies am: okay . this is helpful to know , actually . kirsty williams am: so , these are the kinds of things that we 're grappling with . but , as i said , thinking about it , that was only last week , but it feels like an aeon ago . suzy davies am: i 'm not holding you to that , but it helps us manage the questions we get asked . kirsty williams am: yes , but as i said , insurance is not my area of expertise . suzy davies am: no , but thank you for answering . lynne neagle am: okay . well , we 've come to the end of our time . can i thank you for attending this morning , and your officials ? we do recognise what an incredibly challenging time this is , and we 'd like to place on record our thanks to all of you for the work that you 're doing to try and see us through this crisis . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . thank you again , all of you , for your attendance . item 3 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

according to kirsty , they had been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that had been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies . they had got consistency in the approach and a common desire , and investment in moving towards online support for students . there was still a safety net idea . colleges had indicated , as with schools , that , for the most vulnerable learners , they would have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis . any welsh government support going to stay , whatever the circumstances were . they would do their best to ensure that there would be no disruption to ema .

what sort of conversations were they having with fe and he at the moment about how they decide the closures ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . i 've received apologies for absence from siân gwenllian , and i 'm very pleased to welcome helen mary jones , who is substituting for siân today . can i ask whether members want to declare any interests , please ? can i just , then , place on record that i have got a son who was about to do a-levels , so is affected by the exam decision ? we 'll move on , then , to our substantive item today , which is an evidence session with the welsh government around the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on education in wales . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams , minister for education ; steve davies , who is director of the education directorate ; huw morris , who is the group director , skills , higher education and lifelong learning ; and rob orford , who is the chief scientific adviser for health . thank you all for coming . we know that this is a really difficult and pressurised time for everyone , and we appreciate your attendance . minister , i understand you wanted to make an opening statement today . kirsty williams am: yes , if that 's okay , chair . as you know , it 's not usually my practice to do that , but i think it is important today . covid-19 coronavirus is one of the most significant issues that the welsh government and the people of wales have dealt with in recent times . dealing with the impacts of this pandemic is extremely challenging . things are changing on an hourly basis , and we have to make decisions quickly to ensure public safety . but i would like to assure you that our aim , and my aim , and my main concern as the education minister is to protect all staff and pupils in our schools and other educational settings . but we also have a duty to ensure continuing and continuity of education . public health is clearly the priority here , but that does not change our belief that no child should miss out on any education , unless absolutely necessary . so , the decision to close all schools from tomorrow for statutory education provision was not taken lightly , but i believe it was necessary , given the advice and recommendations that we had received from a public health perspective and the situation that was developing on the ground . from next week , schools will have a new purpose . they will help support those most in need , including people involved in the immediate response to the coronavirus outbreak , and i 'm working with my colleagues in the cabinet , with government officials and our partners in local government to develop and finalise these plans . the key areas that we 're looking at are supporting and safeguarding the vulnerable and ensuring continuity of learning . this includes all of those who benefit from free school meals and children with additional learning needs . i can confirm that all maintained schools in wales already have access to a range of digital tools that can support distance learning through the world-class hwb digital learning platform , including virtual classrooms and video-conferencing facilities . a guide on what tools are available and how schools can use them has been developed and is being promoted widely . yesterday , i announced that , whilst there are no easy choices , we have agreed that the best way forward is not to proceed with the summer exam series . learners due to sit these exams will be awarded a fair grade to recognise their work , drawing on a range of information that is available , and i will announce further details shortly , but i felt it necessary to give early certainty to students and to staff . i would like to put on record my thanks to everyone working in education settings for the hard work that they have put in over the last few months in dealing with the virus and ensuring that pupils have been able to continue to learn . we need to continue to do this work together , as we face the continuing challenges posed by the coronavirus . diolch yn fawr . lynne neagle am: thank you very much , minister , for that statement . we 'll go to questions from members now , and i 've got some questions from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . can i thank you , kirsty , for your statement and the really difficult decisions that you 've been having to make ? you 've already indicated in your statement this morning that these decisions are not taken lightly , and we understand that that is the case across government . so , thank you for what you 've been doing . you 've outlined a little bit further there in your statement to us this morning about the new purpose . i take from what you 're saying that you have n't really developed that yet in terms of exactly what that is going to look like . you 've talked about the children of key workers , free school meals , additional learning needs . is there anything else you can tell us about that at the moment and how you might staff the schools in those particular areas ? kirsty williams am: thank you , dawn . so , you're absolutely right , our priority now is to operationalise , with colleagues in local government and schools , a practical response . and i have to say , we 're working to timescales that i would have hoped to have avoided , but given the fact that we 're having to make these decisions quite quickly , i hope that you will understand that perhaps where we start on monday might change when we have more time and more opportunities to develop programmes going forward . steve will be able to give you more details of the practical work that has already been going on , but our expectation will be that schools will be playing an important part in providing safe and secure places for children of those on the front-line response to dealing with the coronavirus to attend , and work is already under way with local authorities and individual schools on what that will look like for the emergency situation on monday . our other priority is indeed free school meals , and , again , where we eventually end up might be a different place to where we are on monday . again , we 're responding to the emergency situation that there will be families that were expecting a free school meal on monday , and , again , individual schools and local authorities are developing those plans at pace to be able to provide an emergency response as we work out a longer term plan to deal with the situation . the same thing also goes for additional learning needs , and attending to the needs of that particular group of learners . so , those conversations began a few days ago . i had the opportunity to meet with the first minister and andrew morgan , the leader of the welsh local government association , yesterday to talk about what local government could do , and what they were already doing . those plans in some places are already quite developed , and are now working at pace , but i hope you will understand that where we start on monday is the emergency response , and that work will develop as we go forward . but , steve , perhaps you could— ? because steve was the one making all those phone calls and doing the practical operational stuff , rather than me . steve . steve davies: in short , the new purpose is to meet the needs of particular groups of children and young people . in some cases , some of the response to supporting free school meals , in the short term in particular , we may use the schools as part of that , and i 'm certain that will happen in some cases . the second area is looking at how we support the children of key workers . now , there is still work to be done on identifying exactly the categories of key workers , but i think it 's really encouraging that in my discussions yesterday—i spoke with all 22 directors of education , and the examples we 're picking up in their work with schools is they 're already ahead of the curve in working with schools . so , schools have identified the number of children with health workers . it will grow , and we will need to look at that range . then , the third area is vulnerable children . they 're vulnerable sometimes in terms of education other than at school , vulnerable in terms of mental health , and for those children , as well as having an experience that we want to be planned , some have compared it to a snow day , particularly on monday , when you 're putting something together in the short term , but it will not be a formal curriculum that those children would normally go through . so , the range of activities—some will be focused on educational activities , some will be cultural , some will be sporting , and that plan will be developed on the basis of the age range of children , which in some cases may go from extremely young children up to those at the age of 16 in our all-through schools , but there will be a planned set of activities to cater for those children . what we are doing currently—i have staff back at cathays park who are in touch and working with directors of education to ensure that schools over the next two days will have been able to identify , at least at the earlier stage , in terms of health workers , the type and numbers of people . there are already schools who have informed us , and local authorities , of their plans for these activities to be starting next week , which is quite amazing , actually , given where we are . but we are expecting , and we 're writing to schools today , that during the course of next week , headteachers to be in schools , and with their staff , taking into consideration the health guidance as to which staff should or should not be in , and in that period from next monday through the two-week period , to easter , we expect staff to be both planning for delivery post easter , but also , as i said , building on and reflecting the good practice that 's already in place for schools that have engaged in activities , and i 'm sure a number of them will be inviting and enabling those children to come in on monday . so , monday will be a challenge for some , and not all will be delivering it , but we will be working so that we can get as much as possible delivered for those groups over the next two weeks , and particularly to have resilient programmes post easter for the groups of children in those three categories that i said . dawn bowden am: those that have been identified . can i just clarify one thing ? one of the identified vulnerable groups would clearly be children on the at-risk register . they would be included . steve davies: yes , definitely . vulnerable children , yes . kirsty williams am: in our discussions , we have asked local government to be working with the social services departments and individual schools to identify those children who may be in that situation . we know that , for some children , being at school is part of their safeguarding arrangements , and obviously we will need to be able to respond to those needs . steve davies: i wrote specifically yesterday to all directors of education to be assured that , for those children , the register is up to date and the plans are in place . i 'm working with albert heaney my colleague , the director for social services , who is meeting with the 22 directors of social services today to look to ensure that we are joined up in ensuring none of these children fall through the gap . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got a supplementary from hefin , and then suzy . hefin david am: a very quick and simple question : how are you going to communicate this to parents ? there 's a bigger picture and it 's changing all the time , as you said . the welsh government have a route to communication . the most helpful thing i 've seen is that public health wales have a single website with information regarding the wider issue of the virus . how will this then be cascaded to schools , because there 's obviously a time lag ? so , have you considered how this is going to be communicated directly to parents ? kirsty williams am: we 're using all of our platforms of communication to get these messages across . so , we 're using the more informal methods of communication , but are relying on a systematic approach via individual directors and through to individual schools . welsh government already has a dedicated website page with all of the relevant information about coronavirus . we 're looking , as quickly as we can , to have a frequently asked education questions page that we can update . understandably , people are communicating to us on twitter asking questions . it is impossible for the communications team here to be able to respond individually to every single person that is sending facebook messages and sending tweets , so the best way we can do that is to collate the types of questions people are asking and then to be able to have a frequently updated question and answer page to try to respond to that . with regard to parents , for instance , we 're aware of schools that have already sent a questionnaire out last night to parents saying , 'do you consider yourself to be a key worker ? do you work in the nhs ? please let us know by tomorrow so we can put arrangements in place for your children . ' so , schools are already taking the initiative and having those conversations with parents about what their needs will be . and , as i said , hefin , will it be perfect on monday ? no . it wo n't be perfect by monday , because we 're working to such constrained timescales . but we will continue to build that resilience . we also have to think about systems that look at what might the epidemic do and have systems of resilience that may work next week , given the situation we find ourselves in with public health advice at the moment . but that public health advice may change . therefore , have we got a system that will be resilient in those circumstances ? these are some of the challenges that we 're having to grapple with . so , as i said , what happens on monday might look very different to where we are if schools are still off in may . so , i hope people will understand that we are working in those kinds of scenarios . lynne neagle am: suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: yes , just on this question of vulnerable children , i 'm just wondering how much discretion teachers are going to have in including individual children who may not be obviously under social services ' care or on a risk register or whatever . teachers know their pupils and , very sensitively , they could include people who may not be obviously in need . kirsty williams am: we would absolutely respect the professional judgment of individual headteachers to be able to have those conversations with their directors . as you said , quite rightly , they are the individuals who know their children best and know which children , perhaps , will need this extra support . we will put no constraints on those teachers trying to do that work . suzy davies am: okay . the second part of my question is : there were going to be easter holidays anyway , were n't there ? what was going to happen about free-school-meal children during that period ? has that gone out of the window now , the normal holiday provision for children ? because that 's not there normally , is it , except in separate— kirsty williams am: we do find ourselves in a strange situation . my understanding is what we 're trying to work to is that we would have ongoing provision and not to make some strange , 'you get this for two weeks , then you do n't get it for two weeks , and then you 're back in . ' my understanding is , in england , that is what they 're going to do . we 're trying to create a system where it will be seamless and it will not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays . it wo n't matter to those nurses and doctors who will need to be in work during those weeks . we 're trying to create a system that will run uniformly . that 's our policy goal at the moment . lynne neagle am: helen mary . helen mary jones am: just briefly , building on suzy 's question , one particular group of children and young people that i hope will be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category is young carers . for some of them , they may not be able to come into school because the people they 're caring for may have to be excluded because of their conditions . but i think that , for other young carers , coming to school is an absolute lifeline , because they 're working at home . so , i do n't know if it 's appropriate for you to specifically mention those in discussions with local authorities , but it 's a group of young people who , again , may not be vulnerable in other ways , but because of their caring responsibilities they may need school . and the other group—and this , i suppose , goes back to suzy 's point about teachers knowing their young people—is the children who may be living in situations where they 're at risk of witnessing domestic abuse . again , these may very well not be children who are in any formal contact with social services , but being at home may be really not a good place for them to be . so , again , i 'd put in an appeal for that to be something that perhaps can be raised with schools . if a teacher is worried about what a child 's circumstances are like at home , whether they can be , as you said , kirsty , included as one of the— . they may not be formally identified , but if the teacher knows that they 're at risk , or there is an instinct that they 're at risk , they might be able to be included in children who are allowed to take advantage of this special provision you 're making at this difficult time . kirsty williams am: we will certainly raise those issues . we have to do that in the context of what is deliverable , and we also have to do that in the context of the public health advice that we are receiving as well . one of the reasons why schools are closing is to help manage this disease . we know that the ability for school closures to make a contribution to that diminishes if we have significant children in school still . so , we will take these issues into consideration , but remembering this is part of an epidemic mitigation plan . rob is the expert on that , not me . rob orford: yes , absolutely . this is a rapidly-evolving problem and the scale is something that we have n't seen in 100 years , and so we 're having to evolve and iterate things as we go . next week , i think , will look different to this week . so , it kind of is what it is . we 've all got a role to play , and schools certainly have a significant role to play in breaking those chains of transmission . areas that we 're worried about are displacement activities . if we close the schools , then people collect at others ' houses . we need to send a really clear message that you 're all part of the solution , and the things that you do by distancing yourselves from your friends and your family are really important for us to get on top of this outbreak . the more that we can do that , the easier it will be when we go forward . helen mary jones am: i 'm sure that that 's true , but i 'm sure that we would n't be wanting a child who 's in a very pressured environment with perhaps a very difficult relationship between mum and dad— . it may be very important for those children to be out of that for some of the time . hopefully , we 're talking about relatively small numbers , but i just— . kirsty williams am: we will look at vulnerability in a holistic way . lynne neagle am: janet , you had a supplementary . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair , and good morning , minister , and your team . can i just put on record my thanks for all that you 're having to endure at this moment ? i think it 's fair to say you have the support of assembly members and , indeed , our communities . now , the question i have : if cylch meithrin have to close , where will they get money from to pay their staff ? because , currently , thankfully , there 's support for businesses . lynne neagle am: janet , we 're not doing cylch meithrin at the moment ; we are sticking with schools , as we discussed in advance . dawn . dawn bowden am: can i just get some clarity , steve , around what you were saying in terms of next week ? because i think the practical applications of this—and i understand that you do n't know all of this yet , i understand that—the practical applications are what is coming to us , obviously , with constituents saying , 'well , what 's going to happen to that ? ' just so that i can be clear , are you saying that , at this stage , every headteacher will be in school on monday , as will all their staff ? steve davies: within the scope of the guidance in terms of their health , the expectation—and this will be conveyed in letters by the minister today , to be made clear—is that they are closing for the majority of pupils , but our expectation within the guidance is that the headteacher with their staff will be coming in ; for some to start the delivery of what we just described , but that will probably be small numbers , but more importantly to plan to ensure that , after the formal easter period , which is school holidays , the schools are geared to cater for the range of pupils that we 've been discussing . dawn bowden am: so , would you anticipate—again , i know this is all a bit 'if and when ' , and it depends on the changing nature of the advice , but from what you 're saying , i think we can probably anticipate that , as we go forward , there will probably be fewer schools opening and operable—that we may be moving those children on to fewer sites . would that possibly— ? kirsty williams am: that is a potential . so , we already know that one of our local authorities already has identified a strategic pattern of schools that they will want to operate in this way . that local authority has already chosen those locations , and is already having communications with how they will then staff those centres . so , that could well— . that , i expect , in the longer term , will be the nature of the provision that we will get to . but that 's not for us to dictate . the local authorities are best placed to understand what is the best , pragmatic use of the resources that they have available ; and of course those resources , primarily , are human beings . so , we 've talked a lot this morning in the context of teaching staff , teaching assistants , but we 're also having discussions with local authorities , and i met with the council for wales of voluntary youth services this week , to look at deploying youth workers , to look to be deploying other staff that the local authority may employ , like sports development officers . there may be cultural officers that can have something to offer . welsh government will be talking with a range of our partners who perhaps their normal activities ca n't continue at the moment , but actually have personnel who want to add to this effort , who want to be able to be part of a provision going forward in the longer term , to be able to provide a great place for children to be . we want to give parents , who we are asking— . let 's think about it , in these worst of times , we 're asking parents to leave their children so that they can go and do essential work , and some of that essential work is putting themselves at risk , potentially . and we want to give those parents confidence that , when they leave their child with us , that child will receive something really worthwhile , and they can direct all of their attention to doing their job . lynne neagle am: just before you— . janet , have you got a supplementary on schools now , not on early years settings ? janet finch-saunders am: i lost the signal before , so it 's a little bit confusing at this end , so bear with me . just in terms of the closure of schools , i have been asked by teachers what does new purpose—you may have covered it , but bear in mind [ inaudible . ] —mean in practice . and also , they 're already asking what will next— ? i know you said earlier that next week could look and probably will look significantly different than this week , but what can they expect to be happening next week in terms of this new purpose work ? lynne neagle am: we 've covered that , janet . kirsty williams am: first of all , janet , i just want to say thank you very much for your kind comments . that 's really , really kind of you . we will be sending a letter today to clarify those positions . so , each school will receive letters today about the expectations of schools next week . lynne neagle am: i think you 're having trouble hearing us , are n't you , so i think— ? janet finch-saunders am: no , i heard that loud and clear . lynne neagle am: but i think you missed the earlier comments , when we went into some detail on the new purpose of schools . so , i 'm sorry about that ; we are having some problems with the connection . janet finch-saunders am: yes , we could n't get a signal . lynne neagle am: dawn . dawn bowden am: just in relation to special schools and how they will fit into this new purpose arrangement . kirsty williams am: yes , they 're absolutely central to that planning . we know , again , that some of these children are our most vulnerable and they are some of our most pressurised families . therefore , the same situation that we 've just described for maintained schools also applies to special schools . we 'll be having discussions about what arrangements can be made for those children within their own usual settings . in some cases , that may not be possible . so , again , already local authorities are making different provision . can i give a shout out to the work of rhondda cynon taf in this regard , who are already doing some excellent work with regard to how they can keep in touch with their children who usually would attend their special schools . but , again , steve can give more detail . steve davies: i think special schools have already been hit by this challenge , because a significant proportion of their children , because of their conditions , have not been coming to school , they 've been isolated . but the principle we 've used there is , actually , even if it 's a minority of children who go to those schools and are vulnerable , they deserve and need that support through the school . so , we would expect that to function with the focus on vulnerable children . but similarly , even in special schools , there will be children whose parents will be key workers , so we would expect them to apply that same principle . just quickly in response to the earlier question , while we may bring some groups of children into separate schools , we ’ ll have to continue with the principle of keeping social distance and any provision for a child in a special school in a different setting would be unlikely , given the nature of the special school , so we would look to cater for that within the original school . dawn bowden am: just a couple more questions from me . it ’ s likely , because i know it has already happened , that some schools might actually close before monday . some schools have already partially closed . are you quite happy that headteachers still have the discretion to do that , if they feel that ’ s the right thing to do ? kirsty williams am: in this situation , the discretion of the head still remains . as i said , we will be communicating with all schools today about our expectations , if at all possible , to have schools open for staff to do some of this planning and to be able to respond to these priority needs that we 've just talked about . steve davies: the rationale of headteachers for closing schools up to now has been that they ca n't cope with the safety of the children . i think , moving forward , it 's unlikely that that would be a rationale that headteachers would want to use for not engaging and planning for the future . dawn bowden am: we 're only talking about one more day , now , anyway , are n't we ? so , just in terms of confirmed cases in schools , is your view at this stage that , if there is a confirmed case in a school , once that school has been deep-cleaned , it can reopen again ? kirsty williams am: if we had a confirmed case in a school , then all the usual mechanisms arranged by public health wales would kick in at that point . dawn bowden am: okay . and my final question is in relation to the position of early years and childcare settings . i know that kind of crosses over into somebody else 's portfolio as well , but i think we know that . certainly what i 've seen , and i 'm sure this is true elsewhere as well , we 've seen nurseries closing down because the parents are actually taking the children out of those nurseries . i 've got one in particular , there are kids from the ages of 6 to 12 years in there , and the parents are taking them out . they 've got 30 staff there , catering for 200 children and no children to care for and the organisation , at this stage , is unable to claim on their insurance for the ongoing payment of those staff wages . is there any advice that we can give to people in that situation at this stage ? kirsty williams am: sure . as you say , many of these settings are businesses—people 's businesses and they play a hugely important role and it 's a very worrying time for them . we have said that we will continue to pay for childcare , delivered under the childcare offer even when a child is unable , or a parent is unwilling , to take up that place . so , if that setting is receiving a childcare payment from the welsh government as part of our childcare offer , that will be paid , regardless of whether that child attends or not . and i know that we 're also working with local authorities to ensure a similar position on flying start childcare and early education . so , that payment will be made , regardless of whether a child is attending . it 's also important that childcare settings will be able to apply for the various packages of support that are being made available by my colleague , ken skates . lynne neagle am: hefin , then janet . hefin david am: yes , i 'd just like to turn that around from the parents ' point of view . with schools closing , there are a lot of parents then losing 10 hours of free childcare , but from a settings point of view , they 'll continue to be able to receive , for the time being , the nursery care . kirsty williams am: yes , so the decision that has been taken by my colleague , julie morgan , is that settings should stay open at the moment unless public health changes . that 's being kept under constant review on public health . again , the issue is that we know that that childcare is vital to many families , especially—and we 're particularly concerned about those individuals who are trying to help us overcome and solve these problems . if you have any specific questions about that , we 'll be happy to take them back to julie morgan . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: is this the cylch question ? lynne neagle am: yes , please . janet finch-saunders am: sorry , thank you . yes , just basically , cylch meithrin , there are concerns— [ interruption . ] lynne neagle am: we 've lost janet . we 'll come back to her . kirsty williams am: i think if the issue is about funding for cylch meithrin , these are not normal circumstances . as a welsh government , we will take every step to provide continuity of funding , if at all possible . we will overcome this , and when we overcome this situation we find ourselves in , we will need those childcare settings , we will need those private businesses and we will need our cylch meithrin to be there to respond and to be able to go on doing the job that they usually do for us . and if there is any way that we can , as a government , ensure that that happens by carrying on funding things , even if they are not able to run , all usual— [ inaudible . ] — around service-level agreements are off . i 'm not setting the precedent—let me make that absolutely clear . [ laughter . ] but , you know , we will not undermine businesses and voluntary provision like cylch by withdrawing welsh government funding . i hope i 've been clear . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you for that . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , kirsty . lynne neagle am: if we can move on to talk about exams , obviously you made the announcement yesterday . i completely understand that everything is a very fast-moving situation , but , as you know , there are a lot of questions that people have about young people who 've put a lot of work in . are you able to tell us any more today ? in particular , have you got any idea about timescales now for setting out what the approach will be to handling the lack of summer exams ? kirsty williams am: yes , it is a devastating decision to have to have been taken , but i have done so on the very , very clear and unambiguous advice from qualifications wales . i met with qualifications wales and the wjec yesterday . what was most important to them was that i made an early decision and i did not equivocate on what would happen for the exams . i was able to make an informal decision at that meeting , and then , of course , there is a formal process that we have to go through . that , now , allows qualifications wales and the exam board to operationalise that decision , and they will be communicating with schools as quickly as possible about what schools will need to do to ensure that the systems that they will now put in place can work . we are trying , as far as we can , as i understand it , to be able to mirror as closely as possible the usual results day , for instance . it might not be possible , because , of course , we 're dealing with a situation that requires human beings to be involved in it , and those human beings could find themselves unwell . so , our best attempts will be to maintain the normal rhythm of an exams day in august , but that has to be caveated by the fact that we 're dealing with difficult circumstances . but , the wjec and qualifications wales will be making urgent communications to exam centres to explain what will need to happen next . lynne neagle am: okay . janet , you had a question on this . janet finch-saunders am: yes , i think i raised it yesterday , kirsty , but you were receiving loads of questions . i 'd just ask for some further clarification about coursework , because only 30 per cent of that is done . years 11 and 13 , typically , in my case they 're what 's been raised with me—do you have any advice for them ? kirsty williams am: okay , so , all exams are cancelled , but year 11 and year 13 will be given a grade—i think that 's a distinction that people need to be aware of . that is because those years and those grades are gateway qualifications , and they are points of movement in the education system . so , it 's really important for those students that they are not disadvantaged in any way by not being able to receive a grade that helps them to make a decision as a qualifying step into what they will do next , whether that be university , whether that be a degree apprenticeship or whether that be going into sixth form , into a college , into an apprenticeship or into some work-based learning opportunities . that 's why we have to focus on those children , because for them , it is absolutely critical that we do . we are at an advantage in wales , can i say ? because of the nature of our examination system , those students already have a lot of externally assessed work that we can use as a basis to move forward on . because we 've kept our as-levels , we have got that data . because we have a gcse system— . our year 11s , if they 're doing triple science , they 've already done 40 per cent of their paper , so we 're very fortunate . because of the structures that we have got in our qualification system , there is already lots and lots of externally-verified work that we can use , alongside , potentially , teacher evaluation of students as well . and i think that 's really important . we ’ re starting from a better base than simply having none of that externally-verified data . what will also be important is that these children have confidence in those qualifications , and so we will be looking at a modulated arrangement within wales , and i know that qualifications wales are discussing with their counterparts across the uk a modulated system across the uk . so , actually , we can make sure that our standards are maintained by actually having that modulation across the uk . so , we know that those children never have to worry about the rigour that has gone into determining that grade . so , they can have real confidence . lynne neagle am: okay . helen mary . helen mary jones am: thank you . a supplementary question that might feed into that moderation . you 'll know that the national union of students has suggested that black and minority ethnic children and children from the working class , on the whole , do n't do as well , in terms of their assessment by their own teachers . i do n't know what their evidence is for that . we also know , of course , that boys tend to do better in exams , and girls tend to do better at coursework , for whatever reason that is . so , just to ask you at this early stage to build in those considerations around potential unconscious bias into that overall system that you 're talking about . and , of course , you are right to say that , because we have got some elements of external moderation here , those factors may be less for us in wales than they might for colleagues in england . kirsty williams am: yes , i think we are starting at a different base , thank goodness . so , you 're quite right . as i said , students will have done unit 1 papers last year if they 're gcse students . dare i say it , some might even have done early entry . so , we still have elements of coursework that are externally verified . so , children might well have done lots of oral exams in their english and in their welsh language . so , we have lots of pieces of work that will have been externally verified . i certainly will ensure that these concerns are passed on . i 'm sure that qualifications wales are thinking about it . i have every confidence that they and the wjec will come up with a very comprehensive way of establishing those grades , but i have to say , in some ways , i have to step back now , because you would not expect me , in normal circumstances , to dictate to the wjec how much percentage goes for that , and how much percentage is allocated for that ; that would not be appropriate for a minister . my job is to make the decision on the examinations on the basis of having confidence that what can be put in place is fair and is equitable , and i have confidence that that will be the case . helen mary jones am: thank you . lynne neagle am: suzy . suzy davies am: a few things from me . one is , obviously , pupils are being asked to work at home as well now , some of whom will be doing gcse and a-level courses . so , there 's just a question , generally , from me— because we 're encouraging these kids to carry on working—how that will be accommodated by qualifications wales , i guess , in this modulation process . it may be that your at-home work will be of a higher standard or a lower standard than a teacher would be expecting . secondly , you mentioned the as-levels , of course , as being of value at the moment , but we 've got people in year 12 who now wo n't be doing their ass . is there any steer at this stage about what they will be expected to do ? will they be doing two sets of exams next year , for example ? or is as just off the table ? in which case , how are the a2s going to be calculated in due course ? and then , finally from me , we do have some vocational qualifications that are up for examination as well—your btecs , and i think it 's the association of accounting technicians , which is a lot of computer-based learning—which is due to be examined within three weeks . those aren ’ t a-levels or gcses . i appreciate that you may not have the answer just at the moment , but are they off as well is the question , i guess ? kirsty williams am: with regard to as-levels—no final decision has been made for exactly how those students will be treated . there are a range of options that could be used , but again , we will want to be thinking about student well-being , fairness and equity in that regard , and i will update members as soon as i have received definitive advice from qualifications wales around that , and that has n't happened yet . with regard to other types of qualifications , as you will be aware , the vast majority of btecs is a modular , continually-assessed piece of work , and we would have every expectation that btecs will be able to be awarded , but clearly , those conversations are with awarding bodies—they tend to be uk awarding bodies , rather then necessarily our wjec exam board—and those conversations are ongoing . but i have every expectation that those qualifications will be awarded and , of course , because of their nature there 's even more evidence of continued assessment . huw , i do n't know if there 's anything else that you would like to add about those types of qualifications . huw morris: no . i think you 've covered most of it . i do n't have a definitive answer for the att qualification , but we can look into that and come back to you . suzy davies am: well , i 've just had a constituent ask , so that would be very helpful . and homeworking— kirsty williams am: homeworking , right . suzy davies am: —is that going to count towards the assessments , overall assessments ? kirsty williams am: well , potentially , as i said . i do n't know the exact elements . what will be absolutely necessary is that qualifications wales and the wjec will be able to give absolute clarity and simplicity around how those grades will be arrived at , because parents , teachers and students will want to know that , and my expectation is on them to be able to clearly communicate what elements will and will not be taken into consideration when awarding those grades . suzy davies am: that 's great . at least we covered it . thank you , minister—thank you , kirsty . lynne neagle am: and , just before we move on , have the universities across the uk indicated that they are content with this approach going forward—content to accept students on this basis ? kirsty williams am: certainly . there have been discussions with universities and ucas , of course , that this also has a bearing on . one of the— . and the views of university and how university terms might be impacted is one of the ways and one of the reasons that we 've factored in to making these decisions . those discussions with universities are ongoing , are n't they , huw ? huw morris: yes . so , we 've been in regular conversation with universities wales and through them with universities uk and we 've received every indication that the approach that 's been adopted here has been welcomed by the institutions . those conversations will continue as we work through the practicalities of how the gradings that are awarded are going to feed through into university admissions decisions and enrolment . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . well , we 've got some questions now from suzy on the potential closures of colleges and universities . suzy davies am: okay . well , it 's a very general question , really . i appreciate you 've already indicated there are lots of ongoing conversations , but my understanding is whether colleges or universities close is pretty much still at their own discretion . we 're going to be asking some questions on emergency legislation shortly , which may impact on the answer you can give today , but what sort of conversations are you having with fe and he at the moment about how they decide ? kirsty williams am: well , you 're absolutely right . as we often say in this committee , universities are autonomous institutions—a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question . universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them . colleges are in a similar position , looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods , and the bill , potentially , does give us more powers of intervention in both the fe and the he sector . suzy davies am: i might ask you about that in a minute , because i do n't even know what the bill says yet . kirsty williams am: huw , i do n't know if there 's anything you want to add . huw morris: no—just to confirm what 's been said and also to add in that independent training providers , similarly autonomous , like colleges and universities , have been moving in the same direction . we 've been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that 's been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies . we 've got consistency in the approach and a common desire , and investment in moving towards online support for students . suzy davies am: and there 's still this safety net idea . certainly , colleges have indicated , as with schools , that , for the most vulnerable learners , they 'll have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis . huw morris: that 's my understanding , yes , and , again , we 've been in regular conversation with them about that . my understanding is that they 're going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions . suzy davies am: that 's fair enough . and , presumably , education maintenance allowance will still be paid . kirsty williams am: yes . arrangements have been made to ensure that ema continues to be paid to all students who are entitled . suzy davies am: that 's right . you indicated that any welsh government support 's going to stay , whatever the circumstances are—in your portfolio . kirsty williams am: yes . i 'm doing my best , but it 's an absolute yes on the ema . there will be no disruption to ema . suzy davies am: okay . you might get some further questions on he and fe . lynne neagle am: yes . we 've got some further questions , indeed , from helen mary and then hefin . helen mary jones am: now or in a bit ? lynne neagle am: yes . helen mary jones am: just further to ema , of course , at the moment , that has an attendance qualification , does n't it ? and you do n't get your ema if you do n't turn up . should we take from your last answer that that attendance qualification does n't apply anymore ? kirsty williams am: yes . they ca n't turn up if the institution is not open , and that 's not their fault . helen mary jones am: no , but that is something that 's been a worry , so that 's really encouraging to hear . thinking about students in higher education , can you give an assurance that student maintenance payments will continue as normal ? is that the intention ? kirsty williams am: yes . helen mary jones am: that 's really good to hear . and have you given any special ministerial instruction to student finance wales on processing applications for support or changes of circumstances , or is that something that 's kind of ongoing at the moment ? kirsty williams am: those conversations are ongoing with the student loans company . as i said , we anticipate no disruption to— . we do n't anticipate any change in the approach to students as a result of this . individual student circumstances could well change and our expectation would be that the student loans company would respond to that . all i would say is , just to remind people : people who work for the student loans company are no more able to resist this disease than anybody else . there will undoubtedly in some cases be really practical challenges to service delivery , simply because organisations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they are reacting to social-distancing messages from the government . so , i think we just need to bear that in mind : that these organisations are doing their best , but , if they are badly affected by staff numbers being off because of the virus , then i hope people will give them due consideration . helen mary jones am: yes , that makes sense , of course , because we 've been told that universities wo n't be able to entirely close , because there will be students who ca n't go home— kirsty williams am: it is their home . helen mary jones am: —overseas students , for example . what discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students ' basic needs are met , that there 's still food , shelter , whatever they need ? kirsty williams am: well , obviously , universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances , and every conversation that huw 's been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that . huw morris: we instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease , not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in china and other parts of south-east asia . and so , as the disease has progressed , we 've seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the uk , and i am assured that the universities here in wales have got processes in place that support those learners . helen mary jones am: that 's really helpful . and on this specifically—last question from me— have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees , should the academic year not be completed ? huw morris: so , as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online , clearly , there are lessons that will need to be taken on board . there are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs . the intention in all of these institutions is that they will complete their course of study . there are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed . failing those institutional mechanisms , there is a uk-wide system through the office of the independent adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have . so , we 're confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs . lynne neagle am: okay . suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: no , mr morris has answered my question . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've got a couple more questions now on vulnerable learners . i 've got helen mary , then hefin . helen mary jones am: i think , chair , the minister has already answered what the— . but thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and well-being of staff and learners across a range of educational settings , or , indeed , young people who ca n't access educational settings , what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and well-being might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone ? kirsty williams am: yes , that is correct . so , our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure—which i think , if we 're honest , we have to acknowledge is what we 're looking at—we would expect school staff—well-being staff , for instance in school—to be doing check-ins—phone check-ins , potentially , or facetime check-ins , with students , just to keep in touch with them as we go forward . we 'll be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available—so , for instance , meic website—so , looking to use a variety of platforms . we do , of course , have the formal nhs counselling services . i 'm concerned , of course , that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school . we know that , and we 're just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists—online counselling tools that children already use because they do n't want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor . they 're already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue , as far as possible , those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered , and their worries . i think we have to remember that this is a really worrying time for children and young people . one of the reasons , again , that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible—and teachers have been working so hard to do that—is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we 've needed and wanted to maintain . children will have worries about their own health ; they 'll have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents ; they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves . so , we need to understand , and i think we will also have to recognise , that this support will have to be ongoing once we 're back to normal , and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience . they are incredibly resilient , and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages . they are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole 'washing your hands ' and things like that than even adults have been . so , they are incredibly resilient , but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them . helen mary jones am: can i just— ? just a supplementary to that—you 've mentioned already , kirsty , the importance of youth services , and , particularly thinking voluntarily youth services , you 've given the commitment , when were talking about mudiad ysgolion meithrin earlier , that services that are part-funded by grants through the welsh government , for example , thinking of the national youth voluntary service—will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well ? obviously , local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open , but , in terms of the direct support from welsh government , can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time ? kirsty williams am: no formal decision has been made , but if people are in receipt of a government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public— helen mary jones am: because it 's not safe . kirsty williams am: —because it 's not safe to do so , i do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying , 'we 'll have our money back , thank you very much . ' lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . helen mary jones am: that will make a lot of people happy , thank you . [ laughter . ] kirsty williams am: as i said , we are facing unprecedented circumstances . the normal rules of engagement have to change and , those organisations , we 'll need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal , and we would n't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that . our call to the youth service is a call to arms , though . when we 're trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for front-line staff children , they have a valuable role to play and i know that local government and the council for wales of voluntary youth services are already in discussion about how youth services— . many of our youth services work on an outreach basis . those traditional youth clubs , because of austerity , are not necessarily there anymore , so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work , and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier . helen mary jones am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin , briefly , and then we 're going to take one final question from suzy on emergency legislation . hefin david am: all right . i 'll declare an interest as a parent of a child with additional learning needs , although the question i 'm about to ask does n't reflect her interests . additional learning needs pupils who are waiting outcomes of referrals—if they 're currently waiting an outcome of a referral , will that process will be suspended or will it continue as normal ? and , if it is suspended , will it pick up where it left off from this point ? kirsty williams am: i think we have to recognise that the ability to deliver business as usual has been massively compromised . i 'm sure people will try and continue to do their normal activities and their normal jobs , but that might not be possible . i will have to check that , hefin , to be honest . i do n't want to give you any false assurance if , actually , the intelligence on the ground is that that simply will not be able to happen . but we don't— hefin david am: can we have a clear line on that ? kirsty williams am: we do n't want to jeopardise anybody , but as i said , some of the normal services are simply not available as everybody turns their attention to trying to respond to the pandemic . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . final question—because i know that the minister 's got a lot of things that she needs to get on with—from suzy on emergency legislation . suzy davies am: i 'm not going to ask you if you 'll use any powers you get under the emergency legislation , but are you able to give us some indication of what they might be ? kirsty williams am: sure . for instance , the bill will provide welsh ministers with powers to temporarily close schools or other educational institutions , childcare premises ; powers to give temporary continuity direction—so , actually , the other way around , force things to be open—and to be able to direct resources . so , that includes , as i said , i could direct something to stay open if that institution was trying to close down . the powers also give flexibility to maybe be able to direct staff to other institutions that they would not normally work in , if that was part of our resilience needs . we 'd also be looking at , for instance , relaxing requirements around ratios in childcare settings , or we might be wanting to do things around food . so , obviously , we have rules around the level of nutrition that schools should be giving their children . if there is a continuing role for schools in providing food , we might have to be a bit more flexible about what that might look like . so , those kinds of flexibilities—to be able to suspend things , direct things—that we would not normally have in normal circumstances . suzy davies am: okay . and just to finish this one off—you may not be able to answer this one , in all fairness—in those situations where it 's the government who says 'no ' to various things , does that then help people in the situation of dawn 's nursery , and insurance claims suddenly become more likely ? kirsty williams am: i 'm not an expert on insurance , and i do n't know if anybody here can help me . but what my understanding is , is that even where government has given a direction that does not necessarily mean that you will be covered by your insurance . what we 're finding in the private sector is that insurance companies are not paying out , because even when a government has directed it , they do not regard this as a disruption to business . so , the insurance industry is not my area of expertise . suzy davies am: no , no , i accept that . kirsty williams am: it 's not my area of expertise , but from what i understand from discussions around the cabinet table , this is particularly problematic . let me give you an example about how we 've been trying to overcome some of this—it feels like an awfully long time ago now— you 'll be aware that we gave directions earlier around cancellation of school trips abroad . trying to make sure that that direction came from the foreign and commonwealth office , rather than the department for education was a real battle , because again there were fears that , unless that advice came from the foreign and commonwealth office , insurance would not kick in , and that was a two-day discussion . suzy davies am: okay . this is helpful to know , actually . kirsty williams am: so , these are the kinds of things that we 're grappling with . but , as i said , thinking about it , that was only last week , but it feels like an aeon ago . suzy davies am: i 'm not holding you to that , but it helps us manage the questions we get asked . kirsty williams am: yes , but as i said , insurance is not my area of expertise . suzy davies am: no , but thank you for answering . lynne neagle am: okay . well , we 've come to the end of our time . can i thank you for attending this morning , and your officials ? we do recognise what an incredibly challenging time this is , and we 'd like to place on record our thanks to all of you for the work that you 're doing to try and see us through this crisis . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . thank you again , all of you , for your attendance . item 3 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

kirsty believed that universities were autonomous institutions - a status that they guarded jealously and they would never want to question . colleges were in a similar position , looking to do as much as they could to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods , and the bill , potentially , did give them more powers of intervention in both the fe and the he sector .

what were their opinions on support or changes of circumstances ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . i 've received apologies for absence from siân gwenllian , and i 'm very pleased to welcome helen mary jones , who is substituting for siân today . can i ask whether members want to declare any interests , please ? can i just , then , place on record that i have got a son who was about to do a-levels , so is affected by the exam decision ? we 'll move on , then , to our substantive item today , which is an evidence session with the welsh government around the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on education in wales . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams , minister for education ; steve davies , who is director of the education directorate ; huw morris , who is the group director , skills , higher education and lifelong learning ; and rob orford , who is the chief scientific adviser for health . thank you all for coming . we know that this is a really difficult and pressurised time for everyone , and we appreciate your attendance . minister , i understand you wanted to make an opening statement today . kirsty williams am: yes , if that 's okay , chair . as you know , it 's not usually my practice to do that , but i think it is important today . covid-19 coronavirus is one of the most significant issues that the welsh government and the people of wales have dealt with in recent times . dealing with the impacts of this pandemic is extremely challenging . things are changing on an hourly basis , and we have to make decisions quickly to ensure public safety . but i would like to assure you that our aim , and my aim , and my main concern as the education minister is to protect all staff and pupils in our schools and other educational settings . but we also have a duty to ensure continuing and continuity of education . public health is clearly the priority here , but that does not change our belief that no child should miss out on any education , unless absolutely necessary . so , the decision to close all schools from tomorrow for statutory education provision was not taken lightly , but i believe it was necessary , given the advice and recommendations that we had received from a public health perspective and the situation that was developing on the ground . from next week , schools will have a new purpose . they will help support those most in need , including people involved in the immediate response to the coronavirus outbreak , and i 'm working with my colleagues in the cabinet , with government officials and our partners in local government to develop and finalise these plans . the key areas that we 're looking at are supporting and safeguarding the vulnerable and ensuring continuity of learning . this includes all of those who benefit from free school meals and children with additional learning needs . i can confirm that all maintained schools in wales already have access to a range of digital tools that can support distance learning through the world-class hwb digital learning platform , including virtual classrooms and video-conferencing facilities . a guide on what tools are available and how schools can use them has been developed and is being promoted widely . yesterday , i announced that , whilst there are no easy choices , we have agreed that the best way forward is not to proceed with the summer exam series . learners due to sit these exams will be awarded a fair grade to recognise their work , drawing on a range of information that is available , and i will announce further details shortly , but i felt it necessary to give early certainty to students and to staff . i would like to put on record my thanks to everyone working in education settings for the hard work that they have put in over the last few months in dealing with the virus and ensuring that pupils have been able to continue to learn . we need to continue to do this work together , as we face the continuing challenges posed by the coronavirus . diolch yn fawr . lynne neagle am: thank you very much , minister , for that statement . we 'll go to questions from members now , and i 've got some questions from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . can i thank you , kirsty , for your statement and the really difficult decisions that you 've been having to make ? you 've already indicated in your statement this morning that these decisions are not taken lightly , and we understand that that is the case across government . so , thank you for what you 've been doing . you 've outlined a little bit further there in your statement to us this morning about the new purpose . i take from what you 're saying that you have n't really developed that yet in terms of exactly what that is going to look like . you 've talked about the children of key workers , free school meals , additional learning needs . is there anything else you can tell us about that at the moment and how you might staff the schools in those particular areas ? kirsty williams am: thank you , dawn . so , you're absolutely right , our priority now is to operationalise , with colleagues in local government and schools , a practical response . and i have to say , we 're working to timescales that i would have hoped to have avoided , but given the fact that we 're having to make these decisions quite quickly , i hope that you will understand that perhaps where we start on monday might change when we have more time and more opportunities to develop programmes going forward . steve will be able to give you more details of the practical work that has already been going on , but our expectation will be that schools will be playing an important part in providing safe and secure places for children of those on the front-line response to dealing with the coronavirus to attend , and work is already under way with local authorities and individual schools on what that will look like for the emergency situation on monday . our other priority is indeed free school meals , and , again , where we eventually end up might be a different place to where we are on monday . again , we 're responding to the emergency situation that there will be families that were expecting a free school meal on monday , and , again , individual schools and local authorities are developing those plans at pace to be able to provide an emergency response as we work out a longer term plan to deal with the situation . the same thing also goes for additional learning needs , and attending to the needs of that particular group of learners . so , those conversations began a few days ago . i had the opportunity to meet with the first minister and andrew morgan , the leader of the welsh local government association , yesterday to talk about what local government could do , and what they were already doing . those plans in some places are already quite developed , and are now working at pace , but i hope you will understand that where we start on monday is the emergency response , and that work will develop as we go forward . but , steve , perhaps you could— ? because steve was the one making all those phone calls and doing the practical operational stuff , rather than me . steve . steve davies: in short , the new purpose is to meet the needs of particular groups of children and young people . in some cases , some of the response to supporting free school meals , in the short term in particular , we may use the schools as part of that , and i 'm certain that will happen in some cases . the second area is looking at how we support the children of key workers . now , there is still work to be done on identifying exactly the categories of key workers , but i think it 's really encouraging that in my discussions yesterday—i spoke with all 22 directors of education , and the examples we 're picking up in their work with schools is they 're already ahead of the curve in working with schools . so , schools have identified the number of children with health workers . it will grow , and we will need to look at that range . then , the third area is vulnerable children . they 're vulnerable sometimes in terms of education other than at school , vulnerable in terms of mental health , and for those children , as well as having an experience that we want to be planned , some have compared it to a snow day , particularly on monday , when you 're putting something together in the short term , but it will not be a formal curriculum that those children would normally go through . so , the range of activities—some will be focused on educational activities , some will be cultural , some will be sporting , and that plan will be developed on the basis of the age range of children , which in some cases may go from extremely young children up to those at the age of 16 in our all-through schools , but there will be a planned set of activities to cater for those children . what we are doing currently—i have staff back at cathays park who are in touch and working with directors of education to ensure that schools over the next two days will have been able to identify , at least at the earlier stage , in terms of health workers , the type and numbers of people . there are already schools who have informed us , and local authorities , of their plans for these activities to be starting next week , which is quite amazing , actually , given where we are . but we are expecting , and we 're writing to schools today , that during the course of next week , headteachers to be in schools , and with their staff , taking into consideration the health guidance as to which staff should or should not be in , and in that period from next monday through the two-week period , to easter , we expect staff to be both planning for delivery post easter , but also , as i said , building on and reflecting the good practice that 's already in place for schools that have engaged in activities , and i 'm sure a number of them will be inviting and enabling those children to come in on monday . so , monday will be a challenge for some , and not all will be delivering it , but we will be working so that we can get as much as possible delivered for those groups over the next two weeks , and particularly to have resilient programmes post easter for the groups of children in those three categories that i said . dawn bowden am: those that have been identified . can i just clarify one thing ? one of the identified vulnerable groups would clearly be children on the at-risk register . they would be included . steve davies: yes , definitely . vulnerable children , yes . kirsty williams am: in our discussions , we have asked local government to be working with the social services departments and individual schools to identify those children who may be in that situation . we know that , for some children , being at school is part of their safeguarding arrangements , and obviously we will need to be able to respond to those needs . steve davies: i wrote specifically yesterday to all directors of education to be assured that , for those children , the register is up to date and the plans are in place . i 'm working with albert heaney my colleague , the director for social services , who is meeting with the 22 directors of social services today to look to ensure that we are joined up in ensuring none of these children fall through the gap . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got a supplementary from hefin , and then suzy . hefin david am: a very quick and simple question : how are you going to communicate this to parents ? there 's a bigger picture and it 's changing all the time , as you said . the welsh government have a route to communication . the most helpful thing i 've seen is that public health wales have a single website with information regarding the wider issue of the virus . how will this then be cascaded to schools , because there 's obviously a time lag ? so , have you considered how this is going to be communicated directly to parents ? kirsty williams am: we 're using all of our platforms of communication to get these messages across . so , we 're using the more informal methods of communication , but are relying on a systematic approach via individual directors and through to individual schools . welsh government already has a dedicated website page with all of the relevant information about coronavirus . we 're looking , as quickly as we can , to have a frequently asked education questions page that we can update . understandably , people are communicating to us on twitter asking questions . it is impossible for the communications team here to be able to respond individually to every single person that is sending facebook messages and sending tweets , so the best way we can do that is to collate the types of questions people are asking and then to be able to have a frequently updated question and answer page to try to respond to that . with regard to parents , for instance , we 're aware of schools that have already sent a questionnaire out last night to parents saying , 'do you consider yourself to be a key worker ? do you work in the nhs ? please let us know by tomorrow so we can put arrangements in place for your children . ' so , schools are already taking the initiative and having those conversations with parents about what their needs will be . and , as i said , hefin , will it be perfect on monday ? no . it wo n't be perfect by monday , because we 're working to such constrained timescales . but we will continue to build that resilience . we also have to think about systems that look at what might the epidemic do and have systems of resilience that may work next week , given the situation we find ourselves in with public health advice at the moment . but that public health advice may change . therefore , have we got a system that will be resilient in those circumstances ? these are some of the challenges that we 're having to grapple with . so , as i said , what happens on monday might look very different to where we are if schools are still off in may . so , i hope people will understand that we are working in those kinds of scenarios . lynne neagle am: suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: yes , just on this question of vulnerable children , i 'm just wondering how much discretion teachers are going to have in including individual children who may not be obviously under social services ' care or on a risk register or whatever . teachers know their pupils and , very sensitively , they could include people who may not be obviously in need . kirsty williams am: we would absolutely respect the professional judgment of individual headteachers to be able to have those conversations with their directors . as you said , quite rightly , they are the individuals who know their children best and know which children , perhaps , will need this extra support . we will put no constraints on those teachers trying to do that work . suzy davies am: okay . the second part of my question is : there were going to be easter holidays anyway , were n't there ? what was going to happen about free-school-meal children during that period ? has that gone out of the window now , the normal holiday provision for children ? because that 's not there normally , is it , except in separate— kirsty williams am: we do find ourselves in a strange situation . my understanding is what we 're trying to work to is that we would have ongoing provision and not to make some strange , 'you get this for two weeks , then you do n't get it for two weeks , and then you 're back in . ' my understanding is , in england , that is what they 're going to do . we 're trying to create a system where it will be seamless and it will not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays . it wo n't matter to those nurses and doctors who will need to be in work during those weeks . we 're trying to create a system that will run uniformly . that 's our policy goal at the moment . lynne neagle am: helen mary . helen mary jones am: just briefly , building on suzy 's question , one particular group of children and young people that i hope will be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category is young carers . for some of them , they may not be able to come into school because the people they 're caring for may have to be excluded because of their conditions . but i think that , for other young carers , coming to school is an absolute lifeline , because they 're working at home . so , i do n't know if it 's appropriate for you to specifically mention those in discussions with local authorities , but it 's a group of young people who , again , may not be vulnerable in other ways , but because of their caring responsibilities they may need school . and the other group—and this , i suppose , goes back to suzy 's point about teachers knowing their young people—is the children who may be living in situations where they 're at risk of witnessing domestic abuse . again , these may very well not be children who are in any formal contact with social services , but being at home may be really not a good place for them to be . so , again , i 'd put in an appeal for that to be something that perhaps can be raised with schools . if a teacher is worried about what a child 's circumstances are like at home , whether they can be , as you said , kirsty , included as one of the— . they may not be formally identified , but if the teacher knows that they 're at risk , or there is an instinct that they 're at risk , they might be able to be included in children who are allowed to take advantage of this special provision you 're making at this difficult time . kirsty williams am: we will certainly raise those issues . we have to do that in the context of what is deliverable , and we also have to do that in the context of the public health advice that we are receiving as well . one of the reasons why schools are closing is to help manage this disease . we know that the ability for school closures to make a contribution to that diminishes if we have significant children in school still . so , we will take these issues into consideration , but remembering this is part of an epidemic mitigation plan . rob is the expert on that , not me . rob orford: yes , absolutely . this is a rapidly-evolving problem and the scale is something that we have n't seen in 100 years , and so we 're having to evolve and iterate things as we go . next week , i think , will look different to this week . so , it kind of is what it is . we 've all got a role to play , and schools certainly have a significant role to play in breaking those chains of transmission . areas that we 're worried about are displacement activities . if we close the schools , then people collect at others ' houses . we need to send a really clear message that you 're all part of the solution , and the things that you do by distancing yourselves from your friends and your family are really important for us to get on top of this outbreak . the more that we can do that , the easier it will be when we go forward . helen mary jones am: i 'm sure that that 's true , but i 'm sure that we would n't be wanting a child who 's in a very pressured environment with perhaps a very difficult relationship between mum and dad— . it may be very important for those children to be out of that for some of the time . hopefully , we 're talking about relatively small numbers , but i just— . kirsty williams am: we will look at vulnerability in a holistic way . lynne neagle am: janet , you had a supplementary . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair , and good morning , minister , and your team . can i just put on record my thanks for all that you 're having to endure at this moment ? i think it 's fair to say you have the support of assembly members and , indeed , our communities . now , the question i have : if cylch meithrin have to close , where will they get money from to pay their staff ? because , currently , thankfully , there 's support for businesses . lynne neagle am: janet , we 're not doing cylch meithrin at the moment ; we are sticking with schools , as we discussed in advance . dawn . dawn bowden am: can i just get some clarity , steve , around what you were saying in terms of next week ? because i think the practical applications of this—and i understand that you do n't know all of this yet , i understand that—the practical applications are what is coming to us , obviously , with constituents saying , 'well , what 's going to happen to that ? ' just so that i can be clear , are you saying that , at this stage , every headteacher will be in school on monday , as will all their staff ? steve davies: within the scope of the guidance in terms of their health , the expectation—and this will be conveyed in letters by the minister today , to be made clear—is that they are closing for the majority of pupils , but our expectation within the guidance is that the headteacher with their staff will be coming in ; for some to start the delivery of what we just described , but that will probably be small numbers , but more importantly to plan to ensure that , after the formal easter period , which is school holidays , the schools are geared to cater for the range of pupils that we 've been discussing . dawn bowden am: so , would you anticipate—again , i know this is all a bit 'if and when ' , and it depends on the changing nature of the advice , but from what you 're saying , i think we can probably anticipate that , as we go forward , there will probably be fewer schools opening and operable—that we may be moving those children on to fewer sites . would that possibly— ? kirsty williams am: that is a potential . so , we already know that one of our local authorities already has identified a strategic pattern of schools that they will want to operate in this way . that local authority has already chosen those locations , and is already having communications with how they will then staff those centres . so , that could well— . that , i expect , in the longer term , will be the nature of the provision that we will get to . but that 's not for us to dictate . the local authorities are best placed to understand what is the best , pragmatic use of the resources that they have available ; and of course those resources , primarily , are human beings . so , we 've talked a lot this morning in the context of teaching staff , teaching assistants , but we 're also having discussions with local authorities , and i met with the council for wales of voluntary youth services this week , to look at deploying youth workers , to look to be deploying other staff that the local authority may employ , like sports development officers . there may be cultural officers that can have something to offer . welsh government will be talking with a range of our partners who perhaps their normal activities ca n't continue at the moment , but actually have personnel who want to add to this effort , who want to be able to be part of a provision going forward in the longer term , to be able to provide a great place for children to be . we want to give parents , who we are asking— . let 's think about it , in these worst of times , we 're asking parents to leave their children so that they can go and do essential work , and some of that essential work is putting themselves at risk , potentially . and we want to give those parents confidence that , when they leave their child with us , that child will receive something really worthwhile , and they can direct all of their attention to doing their job . lynne neagle am: just before you— . janet , have you got a supplementary on schools now , not on early years settings ? janet finch-saunders am: i lost the signal before , so it 's a little bit confusing at this end , so bear with me . just in terms of the closure of schools , i have been asked by teachers what does new purpose—you may have covered it , but bear in mind [ inaudible . ] —mean in practice . and also , they 're already asking what will next— ? i know you said earlier that next week could look and probably will look significantly different than this week , but what can they expect to be happening next week in terms of this new purpose work ? lynne neagle am: we 've covered that , janet . kirsty williams am: first of all , janet , i just want to say thank you very much for your kind comments . that 's really , really kind of you . we will be sending a letter today to clarify those positions . so , each school will receive letters today about the expectations of schools next week . lynne neagle am: i think you 're having trouble hearing us , are n't you , so i think— ? janet finch-saunders am: no , i heard that loud and clear . lynne neagle am: but i think you missed the earlier comments , when we went into some detail on the new purpose of schools . so , i 'm sorry about that ; we are having some problems with the connection . janet finch-saunders am: yes , we could n't get a signal . lynne neagle am: dawn . dawn bowden am: just in relation to special schools and how they will fit into this new purpose arrangement . kirsty williams am: yes , they 're absolutely central to that planning . we know , again , that some of these children are our most vulnerable and they are some of our most pressurised families . therefore , the same situation that we 've just described for maintained schools also applies to special schools . we 'll be having discussions about what arrangements can be made for those children within their own usual settings . in some cases , that may not be possible . so , again , already local authorities are making different provision . can i give a shout out to the work of rhondda cynon taf in this regard , who are already doing some excellent work with regard to how they can keep in touch with their children who usually would attend their special schools . but , again , steve can give more detail . steve davies: i think special schools have already been hit by this challenge , because a significant proportion of their children , because of their conditions , have not been coming to school , they 've been isolated . but the principle we 've used there is , actually , even if it 's a minority of children who go to those schools and are vulnerable , they deserve and need that support through the school . so , we would expect that to function with the focus on vulnerable children . but similarly , even in special schools , there will be children whose parents will be key workers , so we would expect them to apply that same principle . just quickly in response to the earlier question , while we may bring some groups of children into separate schools , we ’ ll have to continue with the principle of keeping social distance and any provision for a child in a special school in a different setting would be unlikely , given the nature of the special school , so we would look to cater for that within the original school . dawn bowden am: just a couple more questions from me . it ’ s likely , because i know it has already happened , that some schools might actually close before monday . some schools have already partially closed . are you quite happy that headteachers still have the discretion to do that , if they feel that ’ s the right thing to do ? kirsty williams am: in this situation , the discretion of the head still remains . as i said , we will be communicating with all schools today about our expectations , if at all possible , to have schools open for staff to do some of this planning and to be able to respond to these priority needs that we 've just talked about . steve davies: the rationale of headteachers for closing schools up to now has been that they ca n't cope with the safety of the children . i think , moving forward , it 's unlikely that that would be a rationale that headteachers would want to use for not engaging and planning for the future . dawn bowden am: we 're only talking about one more day , now , anyway , are n't we ? so , just in terms of confirmed cases in schools , is your view at this stage that , if there is a confirmed case in a school , once that school has been deep-cleaned , it can reopen again ? kirsty williams am: if we had a confirmed case in a school , then all the usual mechanisms arranged by public health wales would kick in at that point . dawn bowden am: okay . and my final question is in relation to the position of early years and childcare settings . i know that kind of crosses over into somebody else 's portfolio as well , but i think we know that . certainly what i 've seen , and i 'm sure this is true elsewhere as well , we 've seen nurseries closing down because the parents are actually taking the children out of those nurseries . i 've got one in particular , there are kids from the ages of 6 to 12 years in there , and the parents are taking them out . they 've got 30 staff there , catering for 200 children and no children to care for and the organisation , at this stage , is unable to claim on their insurance for the ongoing payment of those staff wages . is there any advice that we can give to people in that situation at this stage ? kirsty williams am: sure . as you say , many of these settings are businesses—people 's businesses and they play a hugely important role and it 's a very worrying time for them . we have said that we will continue to pay for childcare , delivered under the childcare offer even when a child is unable , or a parent is unwilling , to take up that place . so , if that setting is receiving a childcare payment from the welsh government as part of our childcare offer , that will be paid , regardless of whether that child attends or not . and i know that we 're also working with local authorities to ensure a similar position on flying start childcare and early education . so , that payment will be made , regardless of whether a child is attending . it 's also important that childcare settings will be able to apply for the various packages of support that are being made available by my colleague , ken skates . lynne neagle am: hefin , then janet . hefin david am: yes , i 'd just like to turn that around from the parents ' point of view . with schools closing , there are a lot of parents then losing 10 hours of free childcare , but from a settings point of view , they 'll continue to be able to receive , for the time being , the nursery care . kirsty williams am: yes , so the decision that has been taken by my colleague , julie morgan , is that settings should stay open at the moment unless public health changes . that 's being kept under constant review on public health . again , the issue is that we know that that childcare is vital to many families , especially—and we 're particularly concerned about those individuals who are trying to help us overcome and solve these problems . if you have any specific questions about that , we 'll be happy to take them back to julie morgan . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: is this the cylch question ? lynne neagle am: yes , please . janet finch-saunders am: sorry , thank you . yes , just basically , cylch meithrin , there are concerns— [ interruption . ] lynne neagle am: we 've lost janet . we 'll come back to her . kirsty williams am: i think if the issue is about funding for cylch meithrin , these are not normal circumstances . as a welsh government , we will take every step to provide continuity of funding , if at all possible . we will overcome this , and when we overcome this situation we find ourselves in , we will need those childcare settings , we will need those private businesses and we will need our cylch meithrin to be there to respond and to be able to go on doing the job that they usually do for us . and if there is any way that we can , as a government , ensure that that happens by carrying on funding things , even if they are not able to run , all usual— [ inaudible . ] — around service-level agreements are off . i 'm not setting the precedent—let me make that absolutely clear . [ laughter . ] but , you know , we will not undermine businesses and voluntary provision like cylch by withdrawing welsh government funding . i hope i 've been clear . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you for that . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , kirsty . lynne neagle am: if we can move on to talk about exams , obviously you made the announcement yesterday . i completely understand that everything is a very fast-moving situation , but , as you know , there are a lot of questions that people have about young people who 've put a lot of work in . are you able to tell us any more today ? in particular , have you got any idea about timescales now for setting out what the approach will be to handling the lack of summer exams ? kirsty williams am: yes , it is a devastating decision to have to have been taken , but i have done so on the very , very clear and unambiguous advice from qualifications wales . i met with qualifications wales and the wjec yesterday . what was most important to them was that i made an early decision and i did not equivocate on what would happen for the exams . i was able to make an informal decision at that meeting , and then , of course , there is a formal process that we have to go through . that , now , allows qualifications wales and the exam board to operationalise that decision , and they will be communicating with schools as quickly as possible about what schools will need to do to ensure that the systems that they will now put in place can work . we are trying , as far as we can , as i understand it , to be able to mirror as closely as possible the usual results day , for instance . it might not be possible , because , of course , we 're dealing with a situation that requires human beings to be involved in it , and those human beings could find themselves unwell . so , our best attempts will be to maintain the normal rhythm of an exams day in august , but that has to be caveated by the fact that we 're dealing with difficult circumstances . but , the wjec and qualifications wales will be making urgent communications to exam centres to explain what will need to happen next . lynne neagle am: okay . janet , you had a question on this . janet finch-saunders am: yes , i think i raised it yesterday , kirsty , but you were receiving loads of questions . i 'd just ask for some further clarification about coursework , because only 30 per cent of that is done . years 11 and 13 , typically , in my case they 're what 's been raised with me—do you have any advice for them ? kirsty williams am: okay , so , all exams are cancelled , but year 11 and year 13 will be given a grade—i think that 's a distinction that people need to be aware of . that is because those years and those grades are gateway qualifications , and they are points of movement in the education system . so , it 's really important for those students that they are not disadvantaged in any way by not being able to receive a grade that helps them to make a decision as a qualifying step into what they will do next , whether that be university , whether that be a degree apprenticeship or whether that be going into sixth form , into a college , into an apprenticeship or into some work-based learning opportunities . that 's why we have to focus on those children , because for them , it is absolutely critical that we do . we are at an advantage in wales , can i say ? because of the nature of our examination system , those students already have a lot of externally assessed work that we can use as a basis to move forward on . because we 've kept our as-levels , we have got that data . because we have a gcse system— . our year 11s , if they 're doing triple science , they 've already done 40 per cent of their paper , so we 're very fortunate . because of the structures that we have got in our qualification system , there is already lots and lots of externally-verified work that we can use , alongside , potentially , teacher evaluation of students as well . and i think that 's really important . we ’ re starting from a better base than simply having none of that externally-verified data . what will also be important is that these children have confidence in those qualifications , and so we will be looking at a modulated arrangement within wales , and i know that qualifications wales are discussing with their counterparts across the uk a modulated system across the uk . so , actually , we can make sure that our standards are maintained by actually having that modulation across the uk . so , we know that those children never have to worry about the rigour that has gone into determining that grade . so , they can have real confidence . lynne neagle am: okay . helen mary . helen mary jones am: thank you . a supplementary question that might feed into that moderation . you 'll know that the national union of students has suggested that black and minority ethnic children and children from the working class , on the whole , do n't do as well , in terms of their assessment by their own teachers . i do n't know what their evidence is for that . we also know , of course , that boys tend to do better in exams , and girls tend to do better at coursework , for whatever reason that is . so , just to ask you at this early stage to build in those considerations around potential unconscious bias into that overall system that you 're talking about . and , of course , you are right to say that , because we have got some elements of external moderation here , those factors may be less for us in wales than they might for colleagues in england . kirsty williams am: yes , i think we are starting at a different base , thank goodness . so , you 're quite right . as i said , students will have done unit 1 papers last year if they 're gcse students . dare i say it , some might even have done early entry . so , we still have elements of coursework that are externally verified . so , children might well have done lots of oral exams in their english and in their welsh language . so , we have lots of pieces of work that will have been externally verified . i certainly will ensure that these concerns are passed on . i 'm sure that qualifications wales are thinking about it . i have every confidence that they and the wjec will come up with a very comprehensive way of establishing those grades , but i have to say , in some ways , i have to step back now , because you would not expect me , in normal circumstances , to dictate to the wjec how much percentage goes for that , and how much percentage is allocated for that ; that would not be appropriate for a minister . my job is to make the decision on the examinations on the basis of having confidence that what can be put in place is fair and is equitable , and i have confidence that that will be the case . helen mary jones am: thank you . lynne neagle am: suzy . suzy davies am: a few things from me . one is , obviously , pupils are being asked to work at home as well now , some of whom will be doing gcse and a-level courses . so , there 's just a question , generally , from me— because we 're encouraging these kids to carry on working—how that will be accommodated by qualifications wales , i guess , in this modulation process . it may be that your at-home work will be of a higher standard or a lower standard than a teacher would be expecting . secondly , you mentioned the as-levels , of course , as being of value at the moment , but we 've got people in year 12 who now wo n't be doing their ass . is there any steer at this stage about what they will be expected to do ? will they be doing two sets of exams next year , for example ? or is as just off the table ? in which case , how are the a2s going to be calculated in due course ? and then , finally from me , we do have some vocational qualifications that are up for examination as well—your btecs , and i think it 's the association of accounting technicians , which is a lot of computer-based learning—which is due to be examined within three weeks . those aren ’ t a-levels or gcses . i appreciate that you may not have the answer just at the moment , but are they off as well is the question , i guess ? kirsty williams am: with regard to as-levels—no final decision has been made for exactly how those students will be treated . there are a range of options that could be used , but again , we will want to be thinking about student well-being , fairness and equity in that regard , and i will update members as soon as i have received definitive advice from qualifications wales around that , and that has n't happened yet . with regard to other types of qualifications , as you will be aware , the vast majority of btecs is a modular , continually-assessed piece of work , and we would have every expectation that btecs will be able to be awarded , but clearly , those conversations are with awarding bodies—they tend to be uk awarding bodies , rather then necessarily our wjec exam board—and those conversations are ongoing . but i have every expectation that those qualifications will be awarded and , of course , because of their nature there 's even more evidence of continued assessment . huw , i do n't know if there 's anything else that you would like to add about those types of qualifications . huw morris: no . i think you 've covered most of it . i do n't have a definitive answer for the att qualification , but we can look into that and come back to you . suzy davies am: well , i 've just had a constituent ask , so that would be very helpful . and homeworking— kirsty williams am: homeworking , right . suzy davies am: —is that going to count towards the assessments , overall assessments ? kirsty williams am: well , potentially , as i said . i do n't know the exact elements . what will be absolutely necessary is that qualifications wales and the wjec will be able to give absolute clarity and simplicity around how those grades will be arrived at , because parents , teachers and students will want to know that , and my expectation is on them to be able to clearly communicate what elements will and will not be taken into consideration when awarding those grades . suzy davies am: that 's great . at least we covered it . thank you , minister—thank you , kirsty . lynne neagle am: and , just before we move on , have the universities across the uk indicated that they are content with this approach going forward—content to accept students on this basis ? kirsty williams am: certainly . there have been discussions with universities and ucas , of course , that this also has a bearing on . one of the— . and the views of university and how university terms might be impacted is one of the ways and one of the reasons that we 've factored in to making these decisions . those discussions with universities are ongoing , are n't they , huw ? huw morris: yes . so , we 've been in regular conversation with universities wales and through them with universities uk and we 've received every indication that the approach that 's been adopted here has been welcomed by the institutions . those conversations will continue as we work through the practicalities of how the gradings that are awarded are going to feed through into university admissions decisions and enrolment . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . well , we 've got some questions now from suzy on the potential closures of colleges and universities . suzy davies am: okay . well , it 's a very general question , really . i appreciate you 've already indicated there are lots of ongoing conversations , but my understanding is whether colleges or universities close is pretty much still at their own discretion . we 're going to be asking some questions on emergency legislation shortly , which may impact on the answer you can give today , but what sort of conversations are you having with fe and he at the moment about how they decide ? kirsty williams am: well , you 're absolutely right . as we often say in this committee , universities are autonomous institutions—a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question . universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them . colleges are in a similar position , looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods , and the bill , potentially , does give us more powers of intervention in both the fe and the he sector . suzy davies am: i might ask you about that in a minute , because i do n't even know what the bill says yet . kirsty williams am: huw , i do n't know if there 's anything you want to add . huw morris: no—just to confirm what 's been said and also to add in that independent training providers , similarly autonomous , like colleges and universities , have been moving in the same direction . we 've been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that 's been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies . we 've got consistency in the approach and a common desire , and investment in moving towards online support for students . suzy davies am: and there 's still this safety net idea . certainly , colleges have indicated , as with schools , that , for the most vulnerable learners , they 'll have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis . huw morris: that 's my understanding , yes , and , again , we 've been in regular conversation with them about that . my understanding is that they 're going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions . suzy davies am: that 's fair enough . and , presumably , education maintenance allowance will still be paid . kirsty williams am: yes . arrangements have been made to ensure that ema continues to be paid to all students who are entitled . suzy davies am: that 's right . you indicated that any welsh government support 's going to stay , whatever the circumstances are—in your portfolio . kirsty williams am: yes . i 'm doing my best , but it 's an absolute yes on the ema . there will be no disruption to ema . suzy davies am: okay . you might get some further questions on he and fe . lynne neagle am: yes . we 've got some further questions , indeed , from helen mary and then hefin . helen mary jones am: now or in a bit ? lynne neagle am: yes . helen mary jones am: just further to ema , of course , at the moment , that has an attendance qualification , does n't it ? and you do n't get your ema if you do n't turn up . should we take from your last answer that that attendance qualification does n't apply anymore ? kirsty williams am: yes . they ca n't turn up if the institution is not open , and that 's not their fault . helen mary jones am: no , but that is something that 's been a worry , so that 's really encouraging to hear . thinking about students in higher education , can you give an assurance that student maintenance payments will continue as normal ? is that the intention ? kirsty williams am: yes . helen mary jones am: that 's really good to hear . and have you given any special ministerial instruction to student finance wales on processing applications for support or changes of circumstances , or is that something that 's kind of ongoing at the moment ? kirsty williams am: those conversations are ongoing with the student loans company . as i said , we anticipate no disruption to— . we do n't anticipate any change in the approach to students as a result of this . individual student circumstances could well change and our expectation would be that the student loans company would respond to that . all i would say is , just to remind people : people who work for the student loans company are no more able to resist this disease than anybody else . there will undoubtedly in some cases be really practical challenges to service delivery , simply because organisations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they are reacting to social-distancing messages from the government . so , i think we just need to bear that in mind : that these organisations are doing their best , but , if they are badly affected by staff numbers being off because of the virus , then i hope people will give them due consideration . helen mary jones am: yes , that makes sense , of course , because we 've been told that universities wo n't be able to entirely close , because there will be students who ca n't go home— kirsty williams am: it is their home . helen mary jones am: —overseas students , for example . what discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students ' basic needs are met , that there 's still food , shelter , whatever they need ? kirsty williams am: well , obviously , universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances , and every conversation that huw 's been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that . huw morris: we instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease , not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in china and other parts of south-east asia . and so , as the disease has progressed , we 've seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the uk , and i am assured that the universities here in wales have got processes in place that support those learners . helen mary jones am: that 's really helpful . and on this specifically—last question from me— have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees , should the academic year not be completed ? huw morris: so , as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online , clearly , there are lessons that will need to be taken on board . there are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs . the intention in all of these institutions is that they will complete their course of study . there are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed . failing those institutional mechanisms , there is a uk-wide system through the office of the independent adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have . so , we 're confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs . lynne neagle am: okay . suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: no , mr morris has answered my question . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've got a couple more questions now on vulnerable learners . i 've got helen mary , then hefin . helen mary jones am: i think , chair , the minister has already answered what the— . but thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and well-being of staff and learners across a range of educational settings , or , indeed , young people who ca n't access educational settings , what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and well-being might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone ? kirsty williams am: yes , that is correct . so , our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure—which i think , if we 're honest , we have to acknowledge is what we 're looking at—we would expect school staff—well-being staff , for instance in school—to be doing check-ins—phone check-ins , potentially , or facetime check-ins , with students , just to keep in touch with them as we go forward . we 'll be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available—so , for instance , meic website—so , looking to use a variety of platforms . we do , of course , have the formal nhs counselling services . i 'm concerned , of course , that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school . we know that , and we 're just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists—online counselling tools that children already use because they do n't want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor . they 're already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue , as far as possible , those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered , and their worries . i think we have to remember that this is a really worrying time for children and young people . one of the reasons , again , that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible—and teachers have been working so hard to do that—is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we 've needed and wanted to maintain . children will have worries about their own health ; they 'll have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents ; they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves . so , we need to understand , and i think we will also have to recognise , that this support will have to be ongoing once we 're back to normal , and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience . they are incredibly resilient , and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages . they are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole 'washing your hands ' and things like that than even adults have been . so , they are incredibly resilient , but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them . helen mary jones am: can i just— ? just a supplementary to that—you 've mentioned already , kirsty , the importance of youth services , and , particularly thinking voluntarily youth services , you 've given the commitment , when were talking about mudiad ysgolion meithrin earlier , that services that are part-funded by grants through the welsh government , for example , thinking of the national youth voluntary service—will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well ? obviously , local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open , but , in terms of the direct support from welsh government , can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time ? kirsty williams am: no formal decision has been made , but if people are in receipt of a government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public— helen mary jones am: because it 's not safe . kirsty williams am: —because it 's not safe to do so , i do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying , 'we 'll have our money back , thank you very much . ' lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . helen mary jones am: that will make a lot of people happy , thank you . [ laughter . ] kirsty williams am: as i said , we are facing unprecedented circumstances . the normal rules of engagement have to change and , those organisations , we 'll need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal , and we would n't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that . our call to the youth service is a call to arms , though . when we 're trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for front-line staff children , they have a valuable role to play and i know that local government and the council for wales of voluntary youth services are already in discussion about how youth services— . many of our youth services work on an outreach basis . those traditional youth clubs , because of austerity , are not necessarily there anymore , so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work , and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier . helen mary jones am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin , briefly , and then we 're going to take one final question from suzy on emergency legislation . hefin david am: all right . i 'll declare an interest as a parent of a child with additional learning needs , although the question i 'm about to ask does n't reflect her interests . additional learning needs pupils who are waiting outcomes of referrals—if they 're currently waiting an outcome of a referral , will that process will be suspended or will it continue as normal ? and , if it is suspended , will it pick up where it left off from this point ? kirsty williams am: i think we have to recognise that the ability to deliver business as usual has been massively compromised . i 'm sure people will try and continue to do their normal activities and their normal jobs , but that might not be possible . i will have to check that , hefin , to be honest . i do n't want to give you any false assurance if , actually , the intelligence on the ground is that that simply will not be able to happen . but we don't— hefin david am: can we have a clear line on that ? kirsty williams am: we do n't want to jeopardise anybody , but as i said , some of the normal services are simply not available as everybody turns their attention to trying to respond to the pandemic . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . final question—because i know that the minister 's got a lot of things that she needs to get on with—from suzy on emergency legislation . suzy davies am: i 'm not going to ask you if you 'll use any powers you get under the emergency legislation , but are you able to give us some indication of what they might be ? kirsty williams am: sure . for instance , the bill will provide welsh ministers with powers to temporarily close schools or other educational institutions , childcare premises ; powers to give temporary continuity direction—so , actually , the other way around , force things to be open—and to be able to direct resources . so , that includes , as i said , i could direct something to stay open if that institution was trying to close down . the powers also give flexibility to maybe be able to direct staff to other institutions that they would not normally work in , if that was part of our resilience needs . we 'd also be looking at , for instance , relaxing requirements around ratios in childcare settings , or we might be wanting to do things around food . so , obviously , we have rules around the level of nutrition that schools should be giving their children . if there is a continuing role for schools in providing food , we might have to be a bit more flexible about what that might look like . so , those kinds of flexibilities—to be able to suspend things , direct things—that we would not normally have in normal circumstances . suzy davies am: okay . and just to finish this one off—you may not be able to answer this one , in all fairness—in those situations where it 's the government who says 'no ' to various things , does that then help people in the situation of dawn 's nursery , and insurance claims suddenly become more likely ? kirsty williams am: i 'm not an expert on insurance , and i do n't know if anybody here can help me . but what my understanding is , is that even where government has given a direction that does not necessarily mean that you will be covered by your insurance . what we 're finding in the private sector is that insurance companies are not paying out , because even when a government has directed it , they do not regard this as a disruption to business . so , the insurance industry is not my area of expertise . suzy davies am: no , no , i accept that . kirsty williams am: it 's not my area of expertise , but from what i understand from discussions around the cabinet table , this is particularly problematic . let me give you an example about how we 've been trying to overcome some of this—it feels like an awfully long time ago now— you 'll be aware that we gave directions earlier around cancellation of school trips abroad . trying to make sure that that direction came from the foreign and commonwealth office , rather than the department for education was a real battle , because again there were fears that , unless that advice came from the foreign and commonwealth office , insurance would not kick in , and that was a two-day discussion . suzy davies am: okay . this is helpful to know , actually . kirsty williams am: so , these are the kinds of things that we 're grappling with . but , as i said , thinking about it , that was only last week , but it feels like an aeon ago . suzy davies am: i 'm not holding you to that , but it helps us manage the questions we get asked . kirsty williams am: yes , but as i said , insurance is not my area of expertise . suzy davies am: no , but thank you for answering . lynne neagle am: okay . well , we 've come to the end of our time . can i thank you for attending this morning , and your officials ? we do recognise what an incredibly challenging time this is , and we 'd like to place on record our thanks to all of you for the work that you 're doing to try and see us through this crisis . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . thank you again , all of you , for your attendance . item 3 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

actually , they did not anticipate any change in the approach to students . individual student circumstances could well change and their expectation would be that the student loans company would respond to that . there would undoubtedly in some cases be really typical challenges to service delivery , simply because organizations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they were reacting to social-distancing messages from the government . they instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease , not least because a number of institutions had campuses and activities in china and other parts of south-east asia . and so , as the disease had progressed , they had seen lessons being learned from the support for students who were in isolation coming from there to the uk .

what 's their attitude towards the question whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . i 've received apologies for absence from siân gwenllian , and i 'm very pleased to welcome helen mary jones , who is substituting for siân today . can i ask whether members want to declare any interests , please ? can i just , then , place on record that i have got a son who was about to do a-levels , so is affected by the exam decision ? we 'll move on , then , to our substantive item today , which is an evidence session with the welsh government around the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on education in wales . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams , minister for education ; steve davies , who is director of the education directorate ; huw morris , who is the group director , skills , higher education and lifelong learning ; and rob orford , who is the chief scientific adviser for health . thank you all for coming . we know that this is a really difficult and pressurised time for everyone , and we appreciate your attendance . minister , i understand you wanted to make an opening statement today . kirsty williams am: yes , if that 's okay , chair . as you know , it 's not usually my practice to do that , but i think it is important today . covid-19 coronavirus is one of the most significant issues that the welsh government and the people of wales have dealt with in recent times . dealing with the impacts of this pandemic is extremely challenging . things are changing on an hourly basis , and we have to make decisions quickly to ensure public safety . but i would like to assure you that our aim , and my aim , and my main concern as the education minister is to protect all staff and pupils in our schools and other educational settings . but we also have a duty to ensure continuing and continuity of education . public health is clearly the priority here , but that does not change our belief that no child should miss out on any education , unless absolutely necessary . so , the decision to close all schools from tomorrow for statutory education provision was not taken lightly , but i believe it was necessary , given the advice and recommendations that we had received from a public health perspective and the situation that was developing on the ground . from next week , schools will have a new purpose . they will help support those most in need , including people involved in the immediate response to the coronavirus outbreak , and i 'm working with my colleagues in the cabinet , with government officials and our partners in local government to develop and finalise these plans . the key areas that we 're looking at are supporting and safeguarding the vulnerable and ensuring continuity of learning . this includes all of those who benefit from free school meals and children with additional learning needs . i can confirm that all maintained schools in wales already have access to a range of digital tools that can support distance learning through the world-class hwb digital learning platform , including virtual classrooms and video-conferencing facilities . a guide on what tools are available and how schools can use them has been developed and is being promoted widely . yesterday , i announced that , whilst there are no easy choices , we have agreed that the best way forward is not to proceed with the summer exam series . learners due to sit these exams will be awarded a fair grade to recognise their work , drawing on a range of information that is available , and i will announce further details shortly , but i felt it necessary to give early certainty to students and to staff . i would like to put on record my thanks to everyone working in education settings for the hard work that they have put in over the last few months in dealing with the virus and ensuring that pupils have been able to continue to learn . we need to continue to do this work together , as we face the continuing challenges posed by the coronavirus . diolch yn fawr . lynne neagle am: thank you very much , minister , for that statement . we 'll go to questions from members now , and i 've got some questions from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . can i thank you , kirsty , for your statement and the really difficult decisions that you 've been having to make ? you 've already indicated in your statement this morning that these decisions are not taken lightly , and we understand that that is the case across government . so , thank you for what you 've been doing . you 've outlined a little bit further there in your statement to us this morning about the new purpose . i take from what you 're saying that you have n't really developed that yet in terms of exactly what that is going to look like . you 've talked about the children of key workers , free school meals , additional learning needs . is there anything else you can tell us about that at the moment and how you might staff the schools in those particular areas ? kirsty williams am: thank you , dawn . so , you're absolutely right , our priority now is to operationalise , with colleagues in local government and schools , a practical response . and i have to say , we 're working to timescales that i would have hoped to have avoided , but given the fact that we 're having to make these decisions quite quickly , i hope that you will understand that perhaps where we start on monday might change when we have more time and more opportunities to develop programmes going forward . steve will be able to give you more details of the practical work that has already been going on , but our expectation will be that schools will be playing an important part in providing safe and secure places for children of those on the front-line response to dealing with the coronavirus to attend , and work is already under way with local authorities and individual schools on what that will look like for the emergency situation on monday . our other priority is indeed free school meals , and , again , where we eventually end up might be a different place to where we are on monday . again , we 're responding to the emergency situation that there will be families that were expecting a free school meal on monday , and , again , individual schools and local authorities are developing those plans at pace to be able to provide an emergency response as we work out a longer term plan to deal with the situation . the same thing also goes for additional learning needs , and attending to the needs of that particular group of learners . so , those conversations began a few days ago . i had the opportunity to meet with the first minister and andrew morgan , the leader of the welsh local government association , yesterday to talk about what local government could do , and what they were already doing . those plans in some places are already quite developed , and are now working at pace , but i hope you will understand that where we start on monday is the emergency response , and that work will develop as we go forward . but , steve , perhaps you could— ? because steve was the one making all those phone calls and doing the practical operational stuff , rather than me . steve . steve davies: in short , the new purpose is to meet the needs of particular groups of children and young people . in some cases , some of the response to supporting free school meals , in the short term in particular , we may use the schools as part of that , and i 'm certain that will happen in some cases . the second area is looking at how we support the children of key workers . now , there is still work to be done on identifying exactly the categories of key workers , but i think it 's really encouraging that in my discussions yesterday—i spoke with all 22 directors of education , and the examples we 're picking up in their work with schools is they 're already ahead of the curve in working with schools . so , schools have identified the number of children with health workers . it will grow , and we will need to look at that range . then , the third area is vulnerable children . they 're vulnerable sometimes in terms of education other than at school , vulnerable in terms of mental health , and for those children , as well as having an experience that we want to be planned , some have compared it to a snow day , particularly on monday , when you 're putting something together in the short term , but it will not be a formal curriculum that those children would normally go through . so , the range of activities—some will be focused on educational activities , some will be cultural , some will be sporting , and that plan will be developed on the basis of the age range of children , which in some cases may go from extremely young children up to those at the age of 16 in our all-through schools , but there will be a planned set of activities to cater for those children . what we are doing currently—i have staff back at cathays park who are in touch and working with directors of education to ensure that schools over the next two days will have been able to identify , at least at the earlier stage , in terms of health workers , the type and numbers of people . there are already schools who have informed us , and local authorities , of their plans for these activities to be starting next week , which is quite amazing , actually , given where we are . but we are expecting , and we 're writing to schools today , that during the course of next week , headteachers to be in schools , and with their staff , taking into consideration the health guidance as to which staff should or should not be in , and in that period from next monday through the two-week period , to easter , we expect staff to be both planning for delivery post easter , but also , as i said , building on and reflecting the good practice that 's already in place for schools that have engaged in activities , and i 'm sure a number of them will be inviting and enabling those children to come in on monday . so , monday will be a challenge for some , and not all will be delivering it , but we will be working so that we can get as much as possible delivered for those groups over the next two weeks , and particularly to have resilient programmes post easter for the groups of children in those three categories that i said . dawn bowden am: those that have been identified . can i just clarify one thing ? one of the identified vulnerable groups would clearly be children on the at-risk register . they would be included . steve davies: yes , definitely . vulnerable children , yes . kirsty williams am: in our discussions , we have asked local government to be working with the social services departments and individual schools to identify those children who may be in that situation . we know that , for some children , being at school is part of their safeguarding arrangements , and obviously we will need to be able to respond to those needs . steve davies: i wrote specifically yesterday to all directors of education to be assured that , for those children , the register is up to date and the plans are in place . i 'm working with albert heaney my colleague , the director for social services , who is meeting with the 22 directors of social services today to look to ensure that we are joined up in ensuring none of these children fall through the gap . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got a supplementary from hefin , and then suzy . hefin david am: a very quick and simple question : how are you going to communicate this to parents ? there 's a bigger picture and it 's changing all the time , as you said . the welsh government have a route to communication . the most helpful thing i 've seen is that public health wales have a single website with information regarding the wider issue of the virus . how will this then be cascaded to schools , because there 's obviously a time lag ? so , have you considered how this is going to be communicated directly to parents ? kirsty williams am: we 're using all of our platforms of communication to get these messages across . so , we 're using the more informal methods of communication , but are relying on a systematic approach via individual directors and through to individual schools . welsh government already has a dedicated website page with all of the relevant information about coronavirus . we 're looking , as quickly as we can , to have a frequently asked education questions page that we can update . understandably , people are communicating to us on twitter asking questions . it is impossible for the communications team here to be able to respond individually to every single person that is sending facebook messages and sending tweets , so the best way we can do that is to collate the types of questions people are asking and then to be able to have a frequently updated question and answer page to try to respond to that . with regard to parents , for instance , we 're aware of schools that have already sent a questionnaire out last night to parents saying , 'do you consider yourself to be a key worker ? do you work in the nhs ? please let us know by tomorrow so we can put arrangements in place for your children . ' so , schools are already taking the initiative and having those conversations with parents about what their needs will be . and , as i said , hefin , will it be perfect on monday ? no . it wo n't be perfect by monday , because we 're working to such constrained timescales . but we will continue to build that resilience . we also have to think about systems that look at what might the epidemic do and have systems of resilience that may work next week , given the situation we find ourselves in with public health advice at the moment . but that public health advice may change . therefore , have we got a system that will be resilient in those circumstances ? these are some of the challenges that we 're having to grapple with . so , as i said , what happens on monday might look very different to where we are if schools are still off in may . so , i hope people will understand that we are working in those kinds of scenarios . lynne neagle am: suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: yes , just on this question of vulnerable children , i 'm just wondering how much discretion teachers are going to have in including individual children who may not be obviously under social services ' care or on a risk register or whatever . teachers know their pupils and , very sensitively , they could include people who may not be obviously in need . kirsty williams am: we would absolutely respect the professional judgment of individual headteachers to be able to have those conversations with their directors . as you said , quite rightly , they are the individuals who know their children best and know which children , perhaps , will need this extra support . we will put no constraints on those teachers trying to do that work . suzy davies am: okay . the second part of my question is : there were going to be easter holidays anyway , were n't there ? what was going to happen about free-school-meal children during that period ? has that gone out of the window now , the normal holiday provision for children ? because that 's not there normally , is it , except in separate— kirsty williams am: we do find ourselves in a strange situation . my understanding is what we 're trying to work to is that we would have ongoing provision and not to make some strange , 'you get this for two weeks , then you do n't get it for two weeks , and then you 're back in . ' my understanding is , in england , that is what they 're going to do . we 're trying to create a system where it will be seamless and it will not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays . it wo n't matter to those nurses and doctors who will need to be in work during those weeks . we 're trying to create a system that will run uniformly . that 's our policy goal at the moment . lynne neagle am: helen mary . helen mary jones am: just briefly , building on suzy 's question , one particular group of children and young people that i hope will be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category is young carers . for some of them , they may not be able to come into school because the people they 're caring for may have to be excluded because of their conditions . but i think that , for other young carers , coming to school is an absolute lifeline , because they 're working at home . so , i do n't know if it 's appropriate for you to specifically mention those in discussions with local authorities , but it 's a group of young people who , again , may not be vulnerable in other ways , but because of their caring responsibilities they may need school . and the other group—and this , i suppose , goes back to suzy 's point about teachers knowing their young people—is the children who may be living in situations where they 're at risk of witnessing domestic abuse . again , these may very well not be children who are in any formal contact with social services , but being at home may be really not a good place for them to be . so , again , i 'd put in an appeal for that to be something that perhaps can be raised with schools . if a teacher is worried about what a child 's circumstances are like at home , whether they can be , as you said , kirsty , included as one of the— . they may not be formally identified , but if the teacher knows that they 're at risk , or there is an instinct that they 're at risk , they might be able to be included in children who are allowed to take advantage of this special provision you 're making at this difficult time . kirsty williams am: we will certainly raise those issues . we have to do that in the context of what is deliverable , and we also have to do that in the context of the public health advice that we are receiving as well . one of the reasons why schools are closing is to help manage this disease . we know that the ability for school closures to make a contribution to that diminishes if we have significant children in school still . so , we will take these issues into consideration , but remembering this is part of an epidemic mitigation plan . rob is the expert on that , not me . rob orford: yes , absolutely . this is a rapidly-evolving problem and the scale is something that we have n't seen in 100 years , and so we 're having to evolve and iterate things as we go . next week , i think , will look different to this week . so , it kind of is what it is . we 've all got a role to play , and schools certainly have a significant role to play in breaking those chains of transmission . areas that we 're worried about are displacement activities . if we close the schools , then people collect at others ' houses . we need to send a really clear message that you 're all part of the solution , and the things that you do by distancing yourselves from your friends and your family are really important for us to get on top of this outbreak . the more that we can do that , the easier it will be when we go forward . helen mary jones am: i 'm sure that that 's true , but i 'm sure that we would n't be wanting a child who 's in a very pressured environment with perhaps a very difficult relationship between mum and dad— . it may be very important for those children to be out of that for some of the time . hopefully , we 're talking about relatively small numbers , but i just— . kirsty williams am: we will look at vulnerability in a holistic way . lynne neagle am: janet , you had a supplementary . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair , and good morning , minister , and your team . can i just put on record my thanks for all that you 're having to endure at this moment ? i think it 's fair to say you have the support of assembly members and , indeed , our communities . now , the question i have : if cylch meithrin have to close , where will they get money from to pay their staff ? because , currently , thankfully , there 's support for businesses . lynne neagle am: janet , we 're not doing cylch meithrin at the moment ; we are sticking with schools , as we discussed in advance . dawn . dawn bowden am: can i just get some clarity , steve , around what you were saying in terms of next week ? because i think the practical applications of this—and i understand that you do n't know all of this yet , i understand that—the practical applications are what is coming to us , obviously , with constituents saying , 'well , what 's going to happen to that ? ' just so that i can be clear , are you saying that , at this stage , every headteacher will be in school on monday , as will all their staff ? steve davies: within the scope of the guidance in terms of their health , the expectation—and this will be conveyed in letters by the minister today , to be made clear—is that they are closing for the majority of pupils , but our expectation within the guidance is that the headteacher with their staff will be coming in ; for some to start the delivery of what we just described , but that will probably be small numbers , but more importantly to plan to ensure that , after the formal easter period , which is school holidays , the schools are geared to cater for the range of pupils that we 've been discussing . dawn bowden am: so , would you anticipate—again , i know this is all a bit 'if and when ' , and it depends on the changing nature of the advice , but from what you 're saying , i think we can probably anticipate that , as we go forward , there will probably be fewer schools opening and operable—that we may be moving those children on to fewer sites . would that possibly— ? kirsty williams am: that is a potential . so , we already know that one of our local authorities already has identified a strategic pattern of schools that they will want to operate in this way . that local authority has already chosen those locations , and is already having communications with how they will then staff those centres . so , that could well— . that , i expect , in the longer term , will be the nature of the provision that we will get to . but that 's not for us to dictate . the local authorities are best placed to understand what is the best , pragmatic use of the resources that they have available ; and of course those resources , primarily , are human beings . so , we 've talked a lot this morning in the context of teaching staff , teaching assistants , but we 're also having discussions with local authorities , and i met with the council for wales of voluntary youth services this week , to look at deploying youth workers , to look to be deploying other staff that the local authority may employ , like sports development officers . there may be cultural officers that can have something to offer . welsh government will be talking with a range of our partners who perhaps their normal activities ca n't continue at the moment , but actually have personnel who want to add to this effort , who want to be able to be part of a provision going forward in the longer term , to be able to provide a great place for children to be . we want to give parents , who we are asking— . let 's think about it , in these worst of times , we 're asking parents to leave their children so that they can go and do essential work , and some of that essential work is putting themselves at risk , potentially . and we want to give those parents confidence that , when they leave their child with us , that child will receive something really worthwhile , and they can direct all of their attention to doing their job . lynne neagle am: just before you— . janet , have you got a supplementary on schools now , not on early years settings ? janet finch-saunders am: i lost the signal before , so it 's a little bit confusing at this end , so bear with me . just in terms of the closure of schools , i have been asked by teachers what does new purpose—you may have covered it , but bear in mind [ inaudible . ] —mean in practice . and also , they 're already asking what will next— ? i know you said earlier that next week could look and probably will look significantly different than this week , but what can they expect to be happening next week in terms of this new purpose work ? lynne neagle am: we 've covered that , janet . kirsty williams am: first of all , janet , i just want to say thank you very much for your kind comments . that 's really , really kind of you . we will be sending a letter today to clarify those positions . so , each school will receive letters today about the expectations of schools next week . lynne neagle am: i think you 're having trouble hearing us , are n't you , so i think— ? janet finch-saunders am: no , i heard that loud and clear . lynne neagle am: but i think you missed the earlier comments , when we went into some detail on the new purpose of schools . so , i 'm sorry about that ; we are having some problems with the connection . janet finch-saunders am: yes , we could n't get a signal . lynne neagle am: dawn . dawn bowden am: just in relation to special schools and how they will fit into this new purpose arrangement . kirsty williams am: yes , they 're absolutely central to that planning . we know , again , that some of these children are our most vulnerable and they are some of our most pressurised families . therefore , the same situation that we 've just described for maintained schools also applies to special schools . we 'll be having discussions about what arrangements can be made for those children within their own usual settings . in some cases , that may not be possible . so , again , already local authorities are making different provision . can i give a shout out to the work of rhondda cynon taf in this regard , who are already doing some excellent work with regard to how they can keep in touch with their children who usually would attend their special schools . but , again , steve can give more detail . steve davies: i think special schools have already been hit by this challenge , because a significant proportion of their children , because of their conditions , have not been coming to school , they 've been isolated . but the principle we 've used there is , actually , even if it 's a minority of children who go to those schools and are vulnerable , they deserve and need that support through the school . so , we would expect that to function with the focus on vulnerable children . but similarly , even in special schools , there will be children whose parents will be key workers , so we would expect them to apply that same principle . just quickly in response to the earlier question , while we may bring some groups of children into separate schools , we ’ ll have to continue with the principle of keeping social distance and any provision for a child in a special school in a different setting would be unlikely , given the nature of the special school , so we would look to cater for that within the original school . dawn bowden am: just a couple more questions from me . it ’ s likely , because i know it has already happened , that some schools might actually close before monday . some schools have already partially closed . are you quite happy that headteachers still have the discretion to do that , if they feel that ’ s the right thing to do ? kirsty williams am: in this situation , the discretion of the head still remains . as i said , we will be communicating with all schools today about our expectations , if at all possible , to have schools open for staff to do some of this planning and to be able to respond to these priority needs that we 've just talked about . steve davies: the rationale of headteachers for closing schools up to now has been that they ca n't cope with the safety of the children . i think , moving forward , it 's unlikely that that would be a rationale that headteachers would want to use for not engaging and planning for the future . dawn bowden am: we 're only talking about one more day , now , anyway , are n't we ? so , just in terms of confirmed cases in schools , is your view at this stage that , if there is a confirmed case in a school , once that school has been deep-cleaned , it can reopen again ? kirsty williams am: if we had a confirmed case in a school , then all the usual mechanisms arranged by public health wales would kick in at that point . dawn bowden am: okay . and my final question is in relation to the position of early years and childcare settings . i know that kind of crosses over into somebody else 's portfolio as well , but i think we know that . certainly what i 've seen , and i 'm sure this is true elsewhere as well , we 've seen nurseries closing down because the parents are actually taking the children out of those nurseries . i 've got one in particular , there are kids from the ages of 6 to 12 years in there , and the parents are taking them out . they 've got 30 staff there , catering for 200 children and no children to care for and the organisation , at this stage , is unable to claim on their insurance for the ongoing payment of those staff wages . is there any advice that we can give to people in that situation at this stage ? kirsty williams am: sure . as you say , many of these settings are businesses—people 's businesses and they play a hugely important role and it 's a very worrying time for them . we have said that we will continue to pay for childcare , delivered under the childcare offer even when a child is unable , or a parent is unwilling , to take up that place . so , if that setting is receiving a childcare payment from the welsh government as part of our childcare offer , that will be paid , regardless of whether that child attends or not . and i know that we 're also working with local authorities to ensure a similar position on flying start childcare and early education . so , that payment will be made , regardless of whether a child is attending . it 's also important that childcare settings will be able to apply for the various packages of support that are being made available by my colleague , ken skates . lynne neagle am: hefin , then janet . hefin david am: yes , i 'd just like to turn that around from the parents ' point of view . with schools closing , there are a lot of parents then losing 10 hours of free childcare , but from a settings point of view , they 'll continue to be able to receive , for the time being , the nursery care . kirsty williams am: yes , so the decision that has been taken by my colleague , julie morgan , is that settings should stay open at the moment unless public health changes . that 's being kept under constant review on public health . again , the issue is that we know that that childcare is vital to many families , especially—and we 're particularly concerned about those individuals who are trying to help us overcome and solve these problems . if you have any specific questions about that , we 'll be happy to take them back to julie morgan . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: is this the cylch question ? lynne neagle am: yes , please . janet finch-saunders am: sorry , thank you . yes , just basically , cylch meithrin , there are concerns— [ interruption . ] lynne neagle am: we 've lost janet . we 'll come back to her . kirsty williams am: i think if the issue is about funding for cylch meithrin , these are not normal circumstances . as a welsh government , we will take every step to provide continuity of funding , if at all possible . we will overcome this , and when we overcome this situation we find ourselves in , we will need those childcare settings , we will need those private businesses and we will need our cylch meithrin to be there to respond and to be able to go on doing the job that they usually do for us . and if there is any way that we can , as a government , ensure that that happens by carrying on funding things , even if they are not able to run , all usual— [ inaudible . ] — around service-level agreements are off . i 'm not setting the precedent—let me make that absolutely clear . [ laughter . ] but , you know , we will not undermine businesses and voluntary provision like cylch by withdrawing welsh government funding . i hope i 've been clear . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you for that . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , kirsty . lynne neagle am: if we can move on to talk about exams , obviously you made the announcement yesterday . i completely understand that everything is a very fast-moving situation , but , as you know , there are a lot of questions that people have about young people who 've put a lot of work in . are you able to tell us any more today ? in particular , have you got any idea about timescales now for setting out what the approach will be to handling the lack of summer exams ? kirsty williams am: yes , it is a devastating decision to have to have been taken , but i have done so on the very , very clear and unambiguous advice from qualifications wales . i met with qualifications wales and the wjec yesterday . what was most important to them was that i made an early decision and i did not equivocate on what would happen for the exams . i was able to make an informal decision at that meeting , and then , of course , there is a formal process that we have to go through . that , now , allows qualifications wales and the exam board to operationalise that decision , and they will be communicating with schools as quickly as possible about what schools will need to do to ensure that the systems that they will now put in place can work . we are trying , as far as we can , as i understand it , to be able to mirror as closely as possible the usual results day , for instance . it might not be possible , because , of course , we 're dealing with a situation that requires human beings to be involved in it , and those human beings could find themselves unwell . so , our best attempts will be to maintain the normal rhythm of an exams day in august , but that has to be caveated by the fact that we 're dealing with difficult circumstances . but , the wjec and qualifications wales will be making urgent communications to exam centres to explain what will need to happen next . lynne neagle am: okay . janet , you had a question on this . janet finch-saunders am: yes , i think i raised it yesterday , kirsty , but you were receiving loads of questions . i 'd just ask for some further clarification about coursework , because only 30 per cent of that is done . years 11 and 13 , typically , in my case they 're what 's been raised with me—do you have any advice for them ? kirsty williams am: okay , so , all exams are cancelled , but year 11 and year 13 will be given a grade—i think that 's a distinction that people need to be aware of . that is because those years and those grades are gateway qualifications , and they are points of movement in the education system . so , it 's really important for those students that they are not disadvantaged in any way by not being able to receive a grade that helps them to make a decision as a qualifying step into what they will do next , whether that be university , whether that be a degree apprenticeship or whether that be going into sixth form , into a college , into an apprenticeship or into some work-based learning opportunities . that 's why we have to focus on those children , because for them , it is absolutely critical that we do . we are at an advantage in wales , can i say ? because of the nature of our examination system , those students already have a lot of externally assessed work that we can use as a basis to move forward on . because we 've kept our as-levels , we have got that data . because we have a gcse system— . our year 11s , if they 're doing triple science , they 've already done 40 per cent of their paper , so we 're very fortunate . because of the structures that we have got in our qualification system , there is already lots and lots of externally-verified work that we can use , alongside , potentially , teacher evaluation of students as well . and i think that 's really important . we ’ re starting from a better base than simply having none of that externally-verified data . what will also be important is that these children have confidence in those qualifications , and so we will be looking at a modulated arrangement within wales , and i know that qualifications wales are discussing with their counterparts across the uk a modulated system across the uk . so , actually , we can make sure that our standards are maintained by actually having that modulation across the uk . so , we know that those children never have to worry about the rigour that has gone into determining that grade . so , they can have real confidence . lynne neagle am: okay . helen mary . helen mary jones am: thank you . a supplementary question that might feed into that moderation . you 'll know that the national union of students has suggested that black and minority ethnic children and children from the working class , on the whole , do n't do as well , in terms of their assessment by their own teachers . i do n't know what their evidence is for that . we also know , of course , that boys tend to do better in exams , and girls tend to do better at coursework , for whatever reason that is . so , just to ask you at this early stage to build in those considerations around potential unconscious bias into that overall system that you 're talking about . and , of course , you are right to say that , because we have got some elements of external moderation here , those factors may be less for us in wales than they might for colleagues in england . kirsty williams am: yes , i think we are starting at a different base , thank goodness . so , you 're quite right . as i said , students will have done unit 1 papers last year if they 're gcse students . dare i say it , some might even have done early entry . so , we still have elements of coursework that are externally verified . so , children might well have done lots of oral exams in their english and in their welsh language . so , we have lots of pieces of work that will have been externally verified . i certainly will ensure that these concerns are passed on . i 'm sure that qualifications wales are thinking about it . i have every confidence that they and the wjec will come up with a very comprehensive way of establishing those grades , but i have to say , in some ways , i have to step back now , because you would not expect me , in normal circumstances , to dictate to the wjec how much percentage goes for that , and how much percentage is allocated for that ; that would not be appropriate for a minister . my job is to make the decision on the examinations on the basis of having confidence that what can be put in place is fair and is equitable , and i have confidence that that will be the case . helen mary jones am: thank you . lynne neagle am: suzy . suzy davies am: a few things from me . one is , obviously , pupils are being asked to work at home as well now , some of whom will be doing gcse and a-level courses . so , there 's just a question , generally , from me— because we 're encouraging these kids to carry on working—how that will be accommodated by qualifications wales , i guess , in this modulation process . it may be that your at-home work will be of a higher standard or a lower standard than a teacher would be expecting . secondly , you mentioned the as-levels , of course , as being of value at the moment , but we 've got people in year 12 who now wo n't be doing their ass . is there any steer at this stage about what they will be expected to do ? will they be doing two sets of exams next year , for example ? or is as just off the table ? in which case , how are the a2s going to be calculated in due course ? and then , finally from me , we do have some vocational qualifications that are up for examination as well—your btecs , and i think it 's the association of accounting technicians , which is a lot of computer-based learning—which is due to be examined within three weeks . those aren ’ t a-levels or gcses . i appreciate that you may not have the answer just at the moment , but are they off as well is the question , i guess ? kirsty williams am: with regard to as-levels—no final decision has been made for exactly how those students will be treated . there are a range of options that could be used , but again , we will want to be thinking about student well-being , fairness and equity in that regard , and i will update members as soon as i have received definitive advice from qualifications wales around that , and that has n't happened yet . with regard to other types of qualifications , as you will be aware , the vast majority of btecs is a modular , continually-assessed piece of work , and we would have every expectation that btecs will be able to be awarded , but clearly , those conversations are with awarding bodies—they tend to be uk awarding bodies , rather then necessarily our wjec exam board—and those conversations are ongoing . but i have every expectation that those qualifications will be awarded and , of course , because of their nature there 's even more evidence of continued assessment . huw , i do n't know if there 's anything else that you would like to add about those types of qualifications . huw morris: no . i think you 've covered most of it . i do n't have a definitive answer for the att qualification , but we can look into that and come back to you . suzy davies am: well , i 've just had a constituent ask , so that would be very helpful . and homeworking— kirsty williams am: homeworking , right . suzy davies am: —is that going to count towards the assessments , overall assessments ? kirsty williams am: well , potentially , as i said . i do n't know the exact elements . what will be absolutely necessary is that qualifications wales and the wjec will be able to give absolute clarity and simplicity around how those grades will be arrived at , because parents , teachers and students will want to know that , and my expectation is on them to be able to clearly communicate what elements will and will not be taken into consideration when awarding those grades . suzy davies am: that 's great . at least we covered it . thank you , minister—thank you , kirsty . lynne neagle am: and , just before we move on , have the universities across the uk indicated that they are content with this approach going forward—content to accept students on this basis ? kirsty williams am: certainly . there have been discussions with universities and ucas , of course , that this also has a bearing on . one of the— . and the views of university and how university terms might be impacted is one of the ways and one of the reasons that we 've factored in to making these decisions . those discussions with universities are ongoing , are n't they , huw ? huw morris: yes . so , we 've been in regular conversation with universities wales and through them with universities uk and we 've received every indication that the approach that 's been adopted here has been welcomed by the institutions . those conversations will continue as we work through the practicalities of how the gradings that are awarded are going to feed through into university admissions decisions and enrolment . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . well , we 've got some questions now from suzy on the potential closures of colleges and universities . suzy davies am: okay . well , it 's a very general question , really . i appreciate you 've already indicated there are lots of ongoing conversations , but my understanding is whether colleges or universities close is pretty much still at their own discretion . we 're going to be asking some questions on emergency legislation shortly , which may impact on the answer you can give today , but what sort of conversations are you having with fe and he at the moment about how they decide ? kirsty williams am: well , you 're absolutely right . as we often say in this committee , universities are autonomous institutions—a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question . universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them . colleges are in a similar position , looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods , and the bill , potentially , does give us more powers of intervention in both the fe and the he sector . suzy davies am: i might ask you about that in a minute , because i do n't even know what the bill says yet . kirsty williams am: huw , i do n't know if there 's anything you want to add . huw morris: no—just to confirm what 's been said and also to add in that independent training providers , similarly autonomous , like colleges and universities , have been moving in the same direction . we 've been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that 's been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies . we 've got consistency in the approach and a common desire , and investment in moving towards online support for students . suzy davies am: and there 's still this safety net idea . certainly , colleges have indicated , as with schools , that , for the most vulnerable learners , they 'll have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis . huw morris: that 's my understanding , yes , and , again , we 've been in regular conversation with them about that . my understanding is that they 're going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions . suzy davies am: that 's fair enough . and , presumably , education maintenance allowance will still be paid . kirsty williams am: yes . arrangements have been made to ensure that ema continues to be paid to all students who are entitled . suzy davies am: that 's right . you indicated that any welsh government support 's going to stay , whatever the circumstances are—in your portfolio . kirsty williams am: yes . i 'm doing my best , but it 's an absolute yes on the ema . there will be no disruption to ema . suzy davies am: okay . you might get some further questions on he and fe . lynne neagle am: yes . we 've got some further questions , indeed , from helen mary and then hefin . helen mary jones am: now or in a bit ? lynne neagle am: yes . helen mary jones am: just further to ema , of course , at the moment , that has an attendance qualification , does n't it ? and you do n't get your ema if you do n't turn up . should we take from your last answer that that attendance qualification does n't apply anymore ? kirsty williams am: yes . they ca n't turn up if the institution is not open , and that 's not their fault . helen mary jones am: no , but that is something that 's been a worry , so that 's really encouraging to hear . thinking about students in higher education , can you give an assurance that student maintenance payments will continue as normal ? is that the intention ? kirsty williams am: yes . helen mary jones am: that 's really good to hear . and have you given any special ministerial instruction to student finance wales on processing applications for support or changes of circumstances , or is that something that 's kind of ongoing at the moment ? kirsty williams am: those conversations are ongoing with the student loans company . as i said , we anticipate no disruption to— . we do n't anticipate any change in the approach to students as a result of this . individual student circumstances could well change and our expectation would be that the student loans company would respond to that . all i would say is , just to remind people : people who work for the student loans company are no more able to resist this disease than anybody else . there will undoubtedly in some cases be really practical challenges to service delivery , simply because organisations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they are reacting to social-distancing messages from the government . so , i think we just need to bear that in mind : that these organisations are doing their best , but , if they are badly affected by staff numbers being off because of the virus , then i hope people will give them due consideration . helen mary jones am: yes , that makes sense , of course , because we 've been told that universities wo n't be able to entirely close , because there will be students who ca n't go home— kirsty williams am: it is their home . helen mary jones am: —overseas students , for example . what discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students ' basic needs are met , that there 's still food , shelter , whatever they need ? kirsty williams am: well , obviously , universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances , and every conversation that huw 's been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that . huw morris: we instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease , not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in china and other parts of south-east asia . and so , as the disease has progressed , we 've seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the uk , and i am assured that the universities here in wales have got processes in place that support those learners . helen mary jones am: that 's really helpful . and on this specifically—last question from me— have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees , should the academic year not be completed ? huw morris: so , as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online , clearly , there are lessons that will need to be taken on board . there are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs . the intention in all of these institutions is that they will complete their course of study . there are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed . failing those institutional mechanisms , there is a uk-wide system through the office of the independent adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have . so , we 're confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs . lynne neagle am: okay . suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: no , mr morris has answered my question . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've got a couple more questions now on vulnerable learners . i 've got helen mary , then hefin . helen mary jones am: i think , chair , the minister has already answered what the— . but thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and well-being of staff and learners across a range of educational settings , or , indeed , young people who ca n't access educational settings , what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and well-being might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone ? kirsty williams am: yes , that is correct . so , our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure—which i think , if we 're honest , we have to acknowledge is what we 're looking at—we would expect school staff—well-being staff , for instance in school—to be doing check-ins—phone check-ins , potentially , or facetime check-ins , with students , just to keep in touch with them as we go forward . we 'll be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available—so , for instance , meic website—so , looking to use a variety of platforms . we do , of course , have the formal nhs counselling services . i 'm concerned , of course , that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school . we know that , and we 're just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists—online counselling tools that children already use because they do n't want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor . they 're already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue , as far as possible , those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered , and their worries . i think we have to remember that this is a really worrying time for children and young people . one of the reasons , again , that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible—and teachers have been working so hard to do that—is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we 've needed and wanted to maintain . children will have worries about their own health ; they 'll have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents ; they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves . so , we need to understand , and i think we will also have to recognise , that this support will have to be ongoing once we 're back to normal , and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience . they are incredibly resilient , and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages . they are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole 'washing your hands ' and things like that than even adults have been . so , they are incredibly resilient , but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them . helen mary jones am: can i just— ? just a supplementary to that—you 've mentioned already , kirsty , the importance of youth services , and , particularly thinking voluntarily youth services , you 've given the commitment , when were talking about mudiad ysgolion meithrin earlier , that services that are part-funded by grants through the welsh government , for example , thinking of the national youth voluntary service—will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well ? obviously , local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open , but , in terms of the direct support from welsh government , can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time ? kirsty williams am: no formal decision has been made , but if people are in receipt of a government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public— helen mary jones am: because it 's not safe . kirsty williams am: —because it 's not safe to do so , i do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying , 'we 'll have our money back , thank you very much . ' lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . helen mary jones am: that will make a lot of people happy , thank you . [ laughter . ] kirsty williams am: as i said , we are facing unprecedented circumstances . the normal rules of engagement have to change and , those organisations , we 'll need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal , and we would n't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that . our call to the youth service is a call to arms , though . when we 're trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for front-line staff children , they have a valuable role to play and i know that local government and the council for wales of voluntary youth services are already in discussion about how youth services— . many of our youth services work on an outreach basis . those traditional youth clubs , because of austerity , are not necessarily there anymore , so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work , and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier . helen mary jones am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin , briefly , and then we 're going to take one final question from suzy on emergency legislation . hefin david am: all right . i 'll declare an interest as a parent of a child with additional learning needs , although the question i 'm about to ask does n't reflect her interests . additional learning needs pupils who are waiting outcomes of referrals—if they 're currently waiting an outcome of a referral , will that process will be suspended or will it continue as normal ? and , if it is suspended , will it pick up where it left off from this point ? kirsty williams am: i think we have to recognise that the ability to deliver business as usual has been massively compromised . i 'm sure people will try and continue to do their normal activities and their normal jobs , but that might not be possible . i will have to check that , hefin , to be honest . i do n't want to give you any false assurance if , actually , the intelligence on the ground is that that simply will not be able to happen . but we don't— hefin david am: can we have a clear line on that ? kirsty williams am: we do n't want to jeopardise anybody , but as i said , some of the normal services are simply not available as everybody turns their attention to trying to respond to the pandemic . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . final question—because i know that the minister 's got a lot of things that she needs to get on with—from suzy on emergency legislation . suzy davies am: i 'm not going to ask you if you 'll use any powers you get under the emergency legislation , but are you able to give us some indication of what they might be ? kirsty williams am: sure . for instance , the bill will provide welsh ministers with powers to temporarily close schools or other educational institutions , childcare premises ; powers to give temporary continuity direction—so , actually , the other way around , force things to be open—and to be able to direct resources . so , that includes , as i said , i could direct something to stay open if that institution was trying to close down . the powers also give flexibility to maybe be able to direct staff to other institutions that they would not normally work in , if that was part of our resilience needs . we 'd also be looking at , for instance , relaxing requirements around ratios in childcare settings , or we might be wanting to do things around food . so , obviously , we have rules around the level of nutrition that schools should be giving their children . if there is a continuing role for schools in providing food , we might have to be a bit more flexible about what that might look like . so , those kinds of flexibilities—to be able to suspend things , direct things—that we would not normally have in normal circumstances . suzy davies am: okay . and just to finish this one off—you may not be able to answer this one , in all fairness—in those situations where it 's the government who says 'no ' to various things , does that then help people in the situation of dawn 's nursery , and insurance claims suddenly become more likely ? kirsty williams am: i 'm not an expert on insurance , and i do n't know if anybody here can help me . but what my understanding is , is that even where government has given a direction that does not necessarily mean that you will be covered by your insurance . what we 're finding in the private sector is that insurance companies are not paying out , because even when a government has directed it , they do not regard this as a disruption to business . so , the insurance industry is not my area of expertise . suzy davies am: no , no , i accept that . kirsty williams am: it 's not my area of expertise , but from what i understand from discussions around the cabinet table , this is particularly problematic . let me give you an example about how we 've been trying to overcome some of this—it feels like an awfully long time ago now— you 'll be aware that we gave directions earlier around cancellation of school trips abroad . trying to make sure that that direction came from the foreign and commonwealth office , rather than the department for education was a real battle , because again there were fears that , unless that advice came from the foreign and commonwealth office , insurance would not kick in , and that was a two-day discussion . suzy davies am: okay . this is helpful to know , actually . kirsty williams am: so , these are the kinds of things that we 're grappling with . but , as i said , thinking about it , that was only last week , but it feels like an aeon ago . suzy davies am: i 'm not holding you to that , but it helps us manage the questions we get asked . kirsty williams am: yes , but as i said , insurance is not my area of expertise . suzy davies am: no , but thank you for answering . lynne neagle am: okay . well , we 've come to the end of our time . can i thank you for attending this morning , and your officials ? we do recognise what an incredibly challenging time this is , and we 'd like to place on record our thanks to all of you for the work that you 're doing to try and see us through this crisis . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . thank you again , all of you , for your attendance . item 3 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

in huw 's opinion , there were lessons that would need to be taken on board . there were established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs . the intention in all of these institutions was that they would complete their course of study . therefore , they were confident that that system would be robust and would make sure that the students were getting a course of learning that met their needs .

summarize the discussion about problems and related advices concerning vulnerable learners . </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . i 've received apologies for absence from siân gwenllian , and i 'm very pleased to welcome helen mary jones , who is substituting for siân today . can i ask whether members want to declare any interests , please ? can i just , then , place on record that i have got a son who was about to do a-levels , so is affected by the exam decision ? we 'll move on , then , to our substantive item today , which is an evidence session with the welsh government around the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on education in wales . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams , minister for education ; steve davies , who is director of the education directorate ; huw morris , who is the group director , skills , higher education and lifelong learning ; and rob orford , who is the chief scientific adviser for health . thank you all for coming . we know that this is a really difficult and pressurised time for everyone , and we appreciate your attendance . minister , i understand you wanted to make an opening statement today . kirsty williams am: yes , if that 's okay , chair . as you know , it 's not usually my practice to do that , but i think it is important today . covid-19 coronavirus is one of the most significant issues that the welsh government and the people of wales have dealt with in recent times . dealing with the impacts of this pandemic is extremely challenging . things are changing on an hourly basis , and we have to make decisions quickly to ensure public safety . but i would like to assure you that our aim , and my aim , and my main concern as the education minister is to protect all staff and pupils in our schools and other educational settings . but we also have a duty to ensure continuing and continuity of education . public health is clearly the priority here , but that does not change our belief that no child should miss out on any education , unless absolutely necessary . so , the decision to close all schools from tomorrow for statutory education provision was not taken lightly , but i believe it was necessary , given the advice and recommendations that we had received from a public health perspective and the situation that was developing on the ground . from next week , schools will have a new purpose . they will help support those most in need , including people involved in the immediate response to the coronavirus outbreak , and i 'm working with my colleagues in the cabinet , with government officials and our partners in local government to develop and finalise these plans . the key areas that we 're looking at are supporting and safeguarding the vulnerable and ensuring continuity of learning . this includes all of those who benefit from free school meals and children with additional learning needs . i can confirm that all maintained schools in wales already have access to a range of digital tools that can support distance learning through the world-class hwb digital learning platform , including virtual classrooms and video-conferencing facilities . a guide on what tools are available and how schools can use them has been developed and is being promoted widely . yesterday , i announced that , whilst there are no easy choices , we have agreed that the best way forward is not to proceed with the summer exam series . learners due to sit these exams will be awarded a fair grade to recognise their work , drawing on a range of information that is available , and i will announce further details shortly , but i felt it necessary to give early certainty to students and to staff . i would like to put on record my thanks to everyone working in education settings for the hard work that they have put in over the last few months in dealing with the virus and ensuring that pupils have been able to continue to learn . we need to continue to do this work together , as we face the continuing challenges posed by the coronavirus . diolch yn fawr . lynne neagle am: thank you very much , minister , for that statement . we 'll go to questions from members now , and i 've got some questions from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . can i thank you , kirsty , for your statement and the really difficult decisions that you 've been having to make ? you 've already indicated in your statement this morning that these decisions are not taken lightly , and we understand that that is the case across government . so , thank you for what you 've been doing . you 've outlined a little bit further there in your statement to us this morning about the new purpose . i take from what you 're saying that you have n't really developed that yet in terms of exactly what that is going to look like . you 've talked about the children of key workers , free school meals , additional learning needs . is there anything else you can tell us about that at the moment and how you might staff the schools in those particular areas ? kirsty williams am: thank you , dawn . so , you're absolutely right , our priority now is to operationalise , with colleagues in local government and schools , a practical response . and i have to say , we 're working to timescales that i would have hoped to have avoided , but given the fact that we 're having to make these decisions quite quickly , i hope that you will understand that perhaps where we start on monday might change when we have more time and more opportunities to develop programmes going forward . steve will be able to give you more details of the practical work that has already been going on , but our expectation will be that schools will be playing an important part in providing safe and secure places for children of those on the front-line response to dealing with the coronavirus to attend , and work is already under way with local authorities and individual schools on what that will look like for the emergency situation on monday . our other priority is indeed free school meals , and , again , where we eventually end up might be a different place to where we are on monday . again , we 're responding to the emergency situation that there will be families that were expecting a free school meal on monday , and , again , individual schools and local authorities are developing those plans at pace to be able to provide an emergency response as we work out a longer term plan to deal with the situation . the same thing also goes for additional learning needs , and attending to the needs of that particular group of learners . so , those conversations began a few days ago . i had the opportunity to meet with the first minister and andrew morgan , the leader of the welsh local government association , yesterday to talk about what local government could do , and what they were already doing . those plans in some places are already quite developed , and are now working at pace , but i hope you will understand that where we start on monday is the emergency response , and that work will develop as we go forward . but , steve , perhaps you could— ? because steve was the one making all those phone calls and doing the practical operational stuff , rather than me . steve . steve davies: in short , the new purpose is to meet the needs of particular groups of children and young people . in some cases , some of the response to supporting free school meals , in the short term in particular , we may use the schools as part of that , and i 'm certain that will happen in some cases . the second area is looking at how we support the children of key workers . now , there is still work to be done on identifying exactly the categories of key workers , but i think it 's really encouraging that in my discussions yesterday—i spoke with all 22 directors of education , and the examples we 're picking up in their work with schools is they 're already ahead of the curve in working with schools . so , schools have identified the number of children with health workers . it will grow , and we will need to look at that range . then , the third area is vulnerable children . they 're vulnerable sometimes in terms of education other than at school , vulnerable in terms of mental health , and for those children , as well as having an experience that we want to be planned , some have compared it to a snow day , particularly on monday , when you 're putting something together in the short term , but it will not be a formal curriculum that those children would normally go through . so , the range of activities—some will be focused on educational activities , some will be cultural , some will be sporting , and that plan will be developed on the basis of the age range of children , which in some cases may go from extremely young children up to those at the age of 16 in our all-through schools , but there will be a planned set of activities to cater for those children . what we are doing currently—i have staff back at cathays park who are in touch and working with directors of education to ensure that schools over the next two days will have been able to identify , at least at the earlier stage , in terms of health workers , the type and numbers of people . there are already schools who have informed us , and local authorities , of their plans for these activities to be starting next week , which is quite amazing , actually , given where we are . but we are expecting , and we 're writing to schools today , that during the course of next week , headteachers to be in schools , and with their staff , taking into consideration the health guidance as to which staff should or should not be in , and in that period from next monday through the two-week period , to easter , we expect staff to be both planning for delivery post easter , but also , as i said , building on and reflecting the good practice that 's already in place for schools that have engaged in activities , and i 'm sure a number of them will be inviting and enabling those children to come in on monday . so , monday will be a challenge for some , and not all will be delivering it , but we will be working so that we can get as much as possible delivered for those groups over the next two weeks , and particularly to have resilient programmes post easter for the groups of children in those three categories that i said . dawn bowden am: those that have been identified . can i just clarify one thing ? one of the identified vulnerable groups would clearly be children on the at-risk register . they would be included . steve davies: yes , definitely . vulnerable children , yes . kirsty williams am: in our discussions , we have asked local government to be working with the social services departments and individual schools to identify those children who may be in that situation . we know that , for some children , being at school is part of their safeguarding arrangements , and obviously we will need to be able to respond to those needs . steve davies: i wrote specifically yesterday to all directors of education to be assured that , for those children , the register is up to date and the plans are in place . i 'm working with albert heaney my colleague , the director for social services , who is meeting with the 22 directors of social services today to look to ensure that we are joined up in ensuring none of these children fall through the gap . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got a supplementary from hefin , and then suzy . hefin david am: a very quick and simple question : how are you going to communicate this to parents ? there 's a bigger picture and it 's changing all the time , as you said . the welsh government have a route to communication . the most helpful thing i 've seen is that public health wales have a single website with information regarding the wider issue of the virus . how will this then be cascaded to schools , because there 's obviously a time lag ? so , have you considered how this is going to be communicated directly to parents ? kirsty williams am: we 're using all of our platforms of communication to get these messages across . so , we 're using the more informal methods of communication , but are relying on a systematic approach via individual directors and through to individual schools . welsh government already has a dedicated website page with all of the relevant information about coronavirus . we 're looking , as quickly as we can , to have a frequently asked education questions page that we can update . understandably , people are communicating to us on twitter asking questions . it is impossible for the communications team here to be able to respond individually to every single person that is sending facebook messages and sending tweets , so the best way we can do that is to collate the types of questions people are asking and then to be able to have a frequently updated question and answer page to try to respond to that . with regard to parents , for instance , we 're aware of schools that have already sent a questionnaire out last night to parents saying , 'do you consider yourself to be a key worker ? do you work in the nhs ? please let us know by tomorrow so we can put arrangements in place for your children . ' so , schools are already taking the initiative and having those conversations with parents about what their needs will be . and , as i said , hefin , will it be perfect on monday ? no . it wo n't be perfect by monday , because we 're working to such constrained timescales . but we will continue to build that resilience . we also have to think about systems that look at what might the epidemic do and have systems of resilience that may work next week , given the situation we find ourselves in with public health advice at the moment . but that public health advice may change . therefore , have we got a system that will be resilient in those circumstances ? these are some of the challenges that we 're having to grapple with . so , as i said , what happens on monday might look very different to where we are if schools are still off in may . so , i hope people will understand that we are working in those kinds of scenarios . lynne neagle am: suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: yes , just on this question of vulnerable children , i 'm just wondering how much discretion teachers are going to have in including individual children who may not be obviously under social services ' care or on a risk register or whatever . teachers know their pupils and , very sensitively , they could include people who may not be obviously in need . kirsty williams am: we would absolutely respect the professional judgment of individual headteachers to be able to have those conversations with their directors . as you said , quite rightly , they are the individuals who know their children best and know which children , perhaps , will need this extra support . we will put no constraints on those teachers trying to do that work . suzy davies am: okay . the second part of my question is : there were going to be easter holidays anyway , were n't there ? what was going to happen about free-school-meal children during that period ? has that gone out of the window now , the normal holiday provision for children ? because that 's not there normally , is it , except in separate— kirsty williams am: we do find ourselves in a strange situation . my understanding is what we 're trying to work to is that we would have ongoing provision and not to make some strange , 'you get this for two weeks , then you do n't get it for two weeks , and then you 're back in . ' my understanding is , in england , that is what they 're going to do . we 're trying to create a system where it will be seamless and it will not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays . it wo n't matter to those nurses and doctors who will need to be in work during those weeks . we 're trying to create a system that will run uniformly . that 's our policy goal at the moment . lynne neagle am: helen mary . helen mary jones am: just briefly , building on suzy 's question , one particular group of children and young people that i hope will be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category is young carers . for some of them , they may not be able to come into school because the people they 're caring for may have to be excluded because of their conditions . but i think that , for other young carers , coming to school is an absolute lifeline , because they 're working at home . so , i do n't know if it 's appropriate for you to specifically mention those in discussions with local authorities , but it 's a group of young people who , again , may not be vulnerable in other ways , but because of their caring responsibilities they may need school . and the other group—and this , i suppose , goes back to suzy 's point about teachers knowing their young people—is the children who may be living in situations where they 're at risk of witnessing domestic abuse . again , these may very well not be children who are in any formal contact with social services , but being at home may be really not a good place for them to be . so , again , i 'd put in an appeal for that to be something that perhaps can be raised with schools . if a teacher is worried about what a child 's circumstances are like at home , whether they can be , as you said , kirsty , included as one of the— . they may not be formally identified , but if the teacher knows that they 're at risk , or there is an instinct that they 're at risk , they might be able to be included in children who are allowed to take advantage of this special provision you 're making at this difficult time . kirsty williams am: we will certainly raise those issues . we have to do that in the context of what is deliverable , and we also have to do that in the context of the public health advice that we are receiving as well . one of the reasons why schools are closing is to help manage this disease . we know that the ability for school closures to make a contribution to that diminishes if we have significant children in school still . so , we will take these issues into consideration , but remembering this is part of an epidemic mitigation plan . rob is the expert on that , not me . rob orford: yes , absolutely . this is a rapidly-evolving problem and the scale is something that we have n't seen in 100 years , and so we 're having to evolve and iterate things as we go . next week , i think , will look different to this week . so , it kind of is what it is . we 've all got a role to play , and schools certainly have a significant role to play in breaking those chains of transmission . areas that we 're worried about are displacement activities . if we close the schools , then people collect at others ' houses . we need to send a really clear message that you 're all part of the solution , and the things that you do by distancing yourselves from your friends and your family are really important for us to get on top of this outbreak . the more that we can do that , the easier it will be when we go forward . helen mary jones am: i 'm sure that that 's true , but i 'm sure that we would n't be wanting a child who 's in a very pressured environment with perhaps a very difficult relationship between mum and dad— . it may be very important for those children to be out of that for some of the time . hopefully , we 're talking about relatively small numbers , but i just— . kirsty williams am: we will look at vulnerability in a holistic way . lynne neagle am: janet , you had a supplementary . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair , and good morning , minister , and your team . can i just put on record my thanks for all that you 're having to endure at this moment ? i think it 's fair to say you have the support of assembly members and , indeed , our communities . now , the question i have : if cylch meithrin have to close , where will they get money from to pay their staff ? because , currently , thankfully , there 's support for businesses . lynne neagle am: janet , we 're not doing cylch meithrin at the moment ; we are sticking with schools , as we discussed in advance . dawn . dawn bowden am: can i just get some clarity , steve , around what you were saying in terms of next week ? because i think the practical applications of this—and i understand that you do n't know all of this yet , i understand that—the practical applications are what is coming to us , obviously , with constituents saying , 'well , what 's going to happen to that ? ' just so that i can be clear , are you saying that , at this stage , every headteacher will be in school on monday , as will all their staff ? steve davies: within the scope of the guidance in terms of their health , the expectation—and this will be conveyed in letters by the minister today , to be made clear—is that they are closing for the majority of pupils , but our expectation within the guidance is that the headteacher with their staff will be coming in ; for some to start the delivery of what we just described , but that will probably be small numbers , but more importantly to plan to ensure that , after the formal easter period , which is school holidays , the schools are geared to cater for the range of pupils that we 've been discussing . dawn bowden am: so , would you anticipate—again , i know this is all a bit 'if and when ' , and it depends on the changing nature of the advice , but from what you 're saying , i think we can probably anticipate that , as we go forward , there will probably be fewer schools opening and operable—that we may be moving those children on to fewer sites . would that possibly— ? kirsty williams am: that is a potential . so , we already know that one of our local authorities already has identified a strategic pattern of schools that they will want to operate in this way . that local authority has already chosen those locations , and is already having communications with how they will then staff those centres . so , that could well— . that , i expect , in the longer term , will be the nature of the provision that we will get to . but that 's not for us to dictate . the local authorities are best placed to understand what is the best , pragmatic use of the resources that they have available ; and of course those resources , primarily , are human beings . so , we 've talked a lot this morning in the context of teaching staff , teaching assistants , but we 're also having discussions with local authorities , and i met with the council for wales of voluntary youth services this week , to look at deploying youth workers , to look to be deploying other staff that the local authority may employ , like sports development officers . there may be cultural officers that can have something to offer . welsh government will be talking with a range of our partners who perhaps their normal activities ca n't continue at the moment , but actually have personnel who want to add to this effort , who want to be able to be part of a provision going forward in the longer term , to be able to provide a great place for children to be . we want to give parents , who we are asking— . let 's think about it , in these worst of times , we 're asking parents to leave their children so that they can go and do essential work , and some of that essential work is putting themselves at risk , potentially . and we want to give those parents confidence that , when they leave their child with us , that child will receive something really worthwhile , and they can direct all of their attention to doing their job . lynne neagle am: just before you— . janet , have you got a supplementary on schools now , not on early years settings ? janet finch-saunders am: i lost the signal before , so it 's a little bit confusing at this end , so bear with me . just in terms of the closure of schools , i have been asked by teachers what does new purpose—you may have covered it , but bear in mind [ inaudible . ] —mean in practice . and also , they 're already asking what will next— ? i know you said earlier that next week could look and probably will look significantly different than this week , but what can they expect to be happening next week in terms of this new purpose work ? lynne neagle am: we 've covered that , janet . kirsty williams am: first of all , janet , i just want to say thank you very much for your kind comments . that 's really , really kind of you . we will be sending a letter today to clarify those positions . so , each school will receive letters today about the expectations of schools next week . lynne neagle am: i think you 're having trouble hearing us , are n't you , so i think— ? janet finch-saunders am: no , i heard that loud and clear . lynne neagle am: but i think you missed the earlier comments , when we went into some detail on the new purpose of schools . so , i 'm sorry about that ; we are having some problems with the connection . janet finch-saunders am: yes , we could n't get a signal . lynne neagle am: dawn . dawn bowden am: just in relation to special schools and how they will fit into this new purpose arrangement . kirsty williams am: yes , they 're absolutely central to that planning . we know , again , that some of these children are our most vulnerable and they are some of our most pressurised families . therefore , the same situation that we 've just described for maintained schools also applies to special schools . we 'll be having discussions about what arrangements can be made for those children within their own usual settings . in some cases , that may not be possible . so , again , already local authorities are making different provision . can i give a shout out to the work of rhondda cynon taf in this regard , who are already doing some excellent work with regard to how they can keep in touch with their children who usually would attend their special schools . but , again , steve can give more detail . steve davies: i think special schools have already been hit by this challenge , because a significant proportion of their children , because of their conditions , have not been coming to school , they 've been isolated . but the principle we 've used there is , actually , even if it 's a minority of children who go to those schools and are vulnerable , they deserve and need that support through the school . so , we would expect that to function with the focus on vulnerable children . but similarly , even in special schools , there will be children whose parents will be key workers , so we would expect them to apply that same principle . just quickly in response to the earlier question , while we may bring some groups of children into separate schools , we ’ ll have to continue with the principle of keeping social distance and any provision for a child in a special school in a different setting would be unlikely , given the nature of the special school , so we would look to cater for that within the original school . dawn bowden am: just a couple more questions from me . it ’ s likely , because i know it has already happened , that some schools might actually close before monday . some schools have already partially closed . are you quite happy that headteachers still have the discretion to do that , if they feel that ’ s the right thing to do ? kirsty williams am: in this situation , the discretion of the head still remains . as i said , we will be communicating with all schools today about our expectations , if at all possible , to have schools open for staff to do some of this planning and to be able to respond to these priority needs that we 've just talked about . steve davies: the rationale of headteachers for closing schools up to now has been that they ca n't cope with the safety of the children . i think , moving forward , it 's unlikely that that would be a rationale that headteachers would want to use for not engaging and planning for the future . dawn bowden am: we 're only talking about one more day , now , anyway , are n't we ? so , just in terms of confirmed cases in schools , is your view at this stage that , if there is a confirmed case in a school , once that school has been deep-cleaned , it can reopen again ? kirsty williams am: if we had a confirmed case in a school , then all the usual mechanisms arranged by public health wales would kick in at that point . dawn bowden am: okay . and my final question is in relation to the position of early years and childcare settings . i know that kind of crosses over into somebody else 's portfolio as well , but i think we know that . certainly what i 've seen , and i 'm sure this is true elsewhere as well , we 've seen nurseries closing down because the parents are actually taking the children out of those nurseries . i 've got one in particular , there are kids from the ages of 6 to 12 years in there , and the parents are taking them out . they 've got 30 staff there , catering for 200 children and no children to care for and the organisation , at this stage , is unable to claim on their insurance for the ongoing payment of those staff wages . is there any advice that we can give to people in that situation at this stage ? kirsty williams am: sure . as you say , many of these settings are businesses—people 's businesses and they play a hugely important role and it 's a very worrying time for them . we have said that we will continue to pay for childcare , delivered under the childcare offer even when a child is unable , or a parent is unwilling , to take up that place . so , if that setting is receiving a childcare payment from the welsh government as part of our childcare offer , that will be paid , regardless of whether that child attends or not . and i know that we 're also working with local authorities to ensure a similar position on flying start childcare and early education . so , that payment will be made , regardless of whether a child is attending . it 's also important that childcare settings will be able to apply for the various packages of support that are being made available by my colleague , ken skates . lynne neagle am: hefin , then janet . hefin david am: yes , i 'd just like to turn that around from the parents ' point of view . with schools closing , there are a lot of parents then losing 10 hours of free childcare , but from a settings point of view , they 'll continue to be able to receive , for the time being , the nursery care . kirsty williams am: yes , so the decision that has been taken by my colleague , julie morgan , is that settings should stay open at the moment unless public health changes . that 's being kept under constant review on public health . again , the issue is that we know that that childcare is vital to many families , especially—and we 're particularly concerned about those individuals who are trying to help us overcome and solve these problems . if you have any specific questions about that , we 'll be happy to take them back to julie morgan . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: is this the cylch question ? lynne neagle am: yes , please . janet finch-saunders am: sorry , thank you . yes , just basically , cylch meithrin , there are concerns— [ interruption . ] lynne neagle am: we 've lost janet . we 'll come back to her . kirsty williams am: i think if the issue is about funding for cylch meithrin , these are not normal circumstances . as a welsh government , we will take every step to provide continuity of funding , if at all possible . we will overcome this , and when we overcome this situation we find ourselves in , we will need those childcare settings , we will need those private businesses and we will need our cylch meithrin to be there to respond and to be able to go on doing the job that they usually do for us . and if there is any way that we can , as a government , ensure that that happens by carrying on funding things , even if they are not able to run , all usual— [ inaudible . ] — around service-level agreements are off . i 'm not setting the precedent—let me make that absolutely clear . [ laughter . ] but , you know , we will not undermine businesses and voluntary provision like cylch by withdrawing welsh government funding . i hope i 've been clear . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you for that . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , kirsty . lynne neagle am: if we can move on to talk about exams , obviously you made the announcement yesterday . i completely understand that everything is a very fast-moving situation , but , as you know , there are a lot of questions that people have about young people who 've put a lot of work in . are you able to tell us any more today ? in particular , have you got any idea about timescales now for setting out what the approach will be to handling the lack of summer exams ? kirsty williams am: yes , it is a devastating decision to have to have been taken , but i have done so on the very , very clear and unambiguous advice from qualifications wales . i met with qualifications wales and the wjec yesterday . what was most important to them was that i made an early decision and i did not equivocate on what would happen for the exams . i was able to make an informal decision at that meeting , and then , of course , there is a formal process that we have to go through . that , now , allows qualifications wales and the exam board to operationalise that decision , and they will be communicating with schools as quickly as possible about what schools will need to do to ensure that the systems that they will now put in place can work . we are trying , as far as we can , as i understand it , to be able to mirror as closely as possible the usual results day , for instance . it might not be possible , because , of course , we 're dealing with a situation that requires human beings to be involved in it , and those human beings could find themselves unwell . so , our best attempts will be to maintain the normal rhythm of an exams day in august , but that has to be caveated by the fact that we 're dealing with difficult circumstances . but , the wjec and qualifications wales will be making urgent communications to exam centres to explain what will need to happen next . lynne neagle am: okay . janet , you had a question on this . janet finch-saunders am: yes , i think i raised it yesterday , kirsty , but you were receiving loads of questions . i 'd just ask for some further clarification about coursework , because only 30 per cent of that is done . years 11 and 13 , typically , in my case they 're what 's been raised with me—do you have any advice for them ? kirsty williams am: okay , so , all exams are cancelled , but year 11 and year 13 will be given a grade—i think that 's a distinction that people need to be aware of . that is because those years and those grades are gateway qualifications , and they are points of movement in the education system . so , it 's really important for those students that they are not disadvantaged in any way by not being able to receive a grade that helps them to make a decision as a qualifying step into what they will do next , whether that be university , whether that be a degree apprenticeship or whether that be going into sixth form , into a college , into an apprenticeship or into some work-based learning opportunities . that 's why we have to focus on those children , because for them , it is absolutely critical that we do . we are at an advantage in wales , can i say ? because of the nature of our examination system , those students already have a lot of externally assessed work that we can use as a basis to move forward on . because we 've kept our as-levels , we have got that data . because we have a gcse system— . our year 11s , if they 're doing triple science , they 've already done 40 per cent of their paper , so we 're very fortunate . because of the structures that we have got in our qualification system , there is already lots and lots of externally-verified work that we can use , alongside , potentially , teacher evaluation of students as well . and i think that 's really important . we ’ re starting from a better base than simply having none of that externally-verified data . what will also be important is that these children have confidence in those qualifications , and so we will be looking at a modulated arrangement within wales , and i know that qualifications wales are discussing with their counterparts across the uk a modulated system across the uk . so , actually , we can make sure that our standards are maintained by actually having that modulation across the uk . so , we know that those children never have to worry about the rigour that has gone into determining that grade . so , they can have real confidence . lynne neagle am: okay . helen mary . helen mary jones am: thank you . a supplementary question that might feed into that moderation . you 'll know that the national union of students has suggested that black and minority ethnic children and children from the working class , on the whole , do n't do as well , in terms of their assessment by their own teachers . i do n't know what their evidence is for that . we also know , of course , that boys tend to do better in exams , and girls tend to do better at coursework , for whatever reason that is . so , just to ask you at this early stage to build in those considerations around potential unconscious bias into that overall system that you 're talking about . and , of course , you are right to say that , because we have got some elements of external moderation here , those factors may be less for us in wales than they might for colleagues in england . kirsty williams am: yes , i think we are starting at a different base , thank goodness . so , you 're quite right . as i said , students will have done unit 1 papers last year if they 're gcse students . dare i say it , some might even have done early entry . so , we still have elements of coursework that are externally verified . so , children might well have done lots of oral exams in their english and in their welsh language . so , we have lots of pieces of work that will have been externally verified . i certainly will ensure that these concerns are passed on . i 'm sure that qualifications wales are thinking about it . i have every confidence that they and the wjec will come up with a very comprehensive way of establishing those grades , but i have to say , in some ways , i have to step back now , because you would not expect me , in normal circumstances , to dictate to the wjec how much percentage goes for that , and how much percentage is allocated for that ; that would not be appropriate for a minister . my job is to make the decision on the examinations on the basis of having confidence that what can be put in place is fair and is equitable , and i have confidence that that will be the case . helen mary jones am: thank you . lynne neagle am: suzy . suzy davies am: a few things from me . one is , obviously , pupils are being asked to work at home as well now , some of whom will be doing gcse and a-level courses . so , there 's just a question , generally , from me— because we 're encouraging these kids to carry on working—how that will be accommodated by qualifications wales , i guess , in this modulation process . it may be that your at-home work will be of a higher standard or a lower standard than a teacher would be expecting . secondly , you mentioned the as-levels , of course , as being of value at the moment , but we 've got people in year 12 who now wo n't be doing their ass . is there any steer at this stage about what they will be expected to do ? will they be doing two sets of exams next year , for example ? or is as just off the table ? in which case , how are the a2s going to be calculated in due course ? and then , finally from me , we do have some vocational qualifications that are up for examination as well—your btecs , and i think it 's the association of accounting technicians , which is a lot of computer-based learning—which is due to be examined within three weeks . those aren ’ t a-levels or gcses . i appreciate that you may not have the answer just at the moment , but are they off as well is the question , i guess ? kirsty williams am: with regard to as-levels—no final decision has been made for exactly how those students will be treated . there are a range of options that could be used , but again , we will want to be thinking about student well-being , fairness and equity in that regard , and i will update members as soon as i have received definitive advice from qualifications wales around that , and that has n't happened yet . with regard to other types of qualifications , as you will be aware , the vast majority of btecs is a modular , continually-assessed piece of work , and we would have every expectation that btecs will be able to be awarded , but clearly , those conversations are with awarding bodies—they tend to be uk awarding bodies , rather then necessarily our wjec exam board—and those conversations are ongoing . but i have every expectation that those qualifications will be awarded and , of course , because of their nature there 's even more evidence of continued assessment . huw , i do n't know if there 's anything else that you would like to add about those types of qualifications . huw morris: no . i think you 've covered most of it . i do n't have a definitive answer for the att qualification , but we can look into that and come back to you . suzy davies am: well , i 've just had a constituent ask , so that would be very helpful . and homeworking— kirsty williams am: homeworking , right . suzy davies am: —is that going to count towards the assessments , overall assessments ? kirsty williams am: well , potentially , as i said . i do n't know the exact elements . what will be absolutely necessary is that qualifications wales and the wjec will be able to give absolute clarity and simplicity around how those grades will be arrived at , because parents , teachers and students will want to know that , and my expectation is on them to be able to clearly communicate what elements will and will not be taken into consideration when awarding those grades . suzy davies am: that 's great . at least we covered it . thank you , minister—thank you , kirsty . lynne neagle am: and , just before we move on , have the universities across the uk indicated that they are content with this approach going forward—content to accept students on this basis ? kirsty williams am: certainly . there have been discussions with universities and ucas , of course , that this also has a bearing on . one of the— . and the views of university and how university terms might be impacted is one of the ways and one of the reasons that we 've factored in to making these decisions . those discussions with universities are ongoing , are n't they , huw ? huw morris: yes . so , we 've been in regular conversation with universities wales and through them with universities uk and we 've received every indication that the approach that 's been adopted here has been welcomed by the institutions . those conversations will continue as we work through the practicalities of how the gradings that are awarded are going to feed through into university admissions decisions and enrolment . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . well , we 've got some questions now from suzy on the potential closures of colleges and universities . suzy davies am: okay . well , it 's a very general question , really . i appreciate you 've already indicated there are lots of ongoing conversations , but my understanding is whether colleges or universities close is pretty much still at their own discretion . we 're going to be asking some questions on emergency legislation shortly , which may impact on the answer you can give today , but what sort of conversations are you having with fe and he at the moment about how they decide ? kirsty williams am: well , you 're absolutely right . as we often say in this committee , universities are autonomous institutions—a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question . universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them . colleges are in a similar position , looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods , and the bill , potentially , does give us more powers of intervention in both the fe and the he sector . suzy davies am: i might ask you about that in a minute , because i do n't even know what the bill says yet . kirsty williams am: huw , i do n't know if there 's anything you want to add . huw morris: no—just to confirm what 's been said and also to add in that independent training providers , similarly autonomous , like colleges and universities , have been moving in the same direction . we 've been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that 's been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies . we 've got consistency in the approach and a common desire , and investment in moving towards online support for students . suzy davies am: and there 's still this safety net idea . certainly , colleges have indicated , as with schools , that , for the most vulnerable learners , they 'll have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis . huw morris: that 's my understanding , yes , and , again , we 've been in regular conversation with them about that . my understanding is that they 're going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions . suzy davies am: that 's fair enough . and , presumably , education maintenance allowance will still be paid . kirsty williams am: yes . arrangements have been made to ensure that ema continues to be paid to all students who are entitled . suzy davies am: that 's right . you indicated that any welsh government support 's going to stay , whatever the circumstances are—in your portfolio . kirsty williams am: yes . i 'm doing my best , but it 's an absolute yes on the ema . there will be no disruption to ema . suzy davies am: okay . you might get some further questions on he and fe . lynne neagle am: yes . we 've got some further questions , indeed , from helen mary and then hefin . helen mary jones am: now or in a bit ? lynne neagle am: yes . helen mary jones am: just further to ema , of course , at the moment , that has an attendance qualification , does n't it ? and you do n't get your ema if you do n't turn up . should we take from your last answer that that attendance qualification does n't apply anymore ? kirsty williams am: yes . they ca n't turn up if the institution is not open , and that 's not their fault . helen mary jones am: no , but that is something that 's been a worry , so that 's really encouraging to hear . thinking about students in higher education , can you give an assurance that student maintenance payments will continue as normal ? is that the intention ? kirsty williams am: yes . helen mary jones am: that 's really good to hear . and have you given any special ministerial instruction to student finance wales on processing applications for support or changes of circumstances , or is that something that 's kind of ongoing at the moment ? kirsty williams am: those conversations are ongoing with the student loans company . as i said , we anticipate no disruption to— . we do n't anticipate any change in the approach to students as a result of this . individual student circumstances could well change and our expectation would be that the student loans company would respond to that . all i would say is , just to remind people : people who work for the student loans company are no more able to resist this disease than anybody else . there will undoubtedly in some cases be really practical challenges to service delivery , simply because organisations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they are reacting to social-distancing messages from the government . so , i think we just need to bear that in mind : that these organisations are doing their best , but , if they are badly affected by staff numbers being off because of the virus , then i hope people will give them due consideration . helen mary jones am: yes , that makes sense , of course , because we 've been told that universities wo n't be able to entirely close , because there will be students who ca n't go home— kirsty williams am: it is their home . helen mary jones am: —overseas students , for example . what discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students ' basic needs are met , that there 's still food , shelter , whatever they need ? kirsty williams am: well , obviously , universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances , and every conversation that huw 's been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that . huw morris: we instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease , not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in china and other parts of south-east asia . and so , as the disease has progressed , we 've seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the uk , and i am assured that the universities here in wales have got processes in place that support those learners . helen mary jones am: that 's really helpful . and on this specifically—last question from me— have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees , should the academic year not be completed ? huw morris: so , as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online , clearly , there are lessons that will need to be taken on board . there are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs . the intention in all of these institutions is that they will complete their course of study . there are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed . failing those institutional mechanisms , there is a uk-wide system through the office of the independent adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have . so , we 're confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs . lynne neagle am: okay . suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: no , mr morris has answered my question . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've got a couple more questions now on vulnerable learners . i 've got helen mary , then hefin . helen mary jones am: i think , chair , the minister has already answered what the— . but thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and well-being of staff and learners across a range of educational settings , or , indeed , young people who ca n't access educational settings , what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and well-being might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone ? kirsty williams am: yes , that is correct . so , our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure—which i think , if we 're honest , we have to acknowledge is what we 're looking at—we would expect school staff—well-being staff , for instance in school—to be doing check-ins—phone check-ins , potentially , or facetime check-ins , with students , just to keep in touch with them as we go forward . we 'll be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available—so , for instance , meic website—so , looking to use a variety of platforms . we do , of course , have the formal nhs counselling services . i 'm concerned , of course , that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school . we know that , and we 're just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists—online counselling tools that children already use because they do n't want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor . they 're already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue , as far as possible , those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered , and their worries . i think we have to remember that this is a really worrying time for children and young people . one of the reasons , again , that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible—and teachers have been working so hard to do that—is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we 've needed and wanted to maintain . children will have worries about their own health ; they 'll have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents ; they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves . so , we need to understand , and i think we will also have to recognise , that this support will have to be ongoing once we 're back to normal , and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience . they are incredibly resilient , and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages . they are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole 'washing your hands ' and things like that than even adults have been . so , they are incredibly resilient , but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them . helen mary jones am: can i just— ? just a supplementary to that—you 've mentioned already , kirsty , the importance of youth services , and , particularly thinking voluntarily youth services , you 've given the commitment , when were talking about mudiad ysgolion meithrin earlier , that services that are part-funded by grants through the welsh government , for example , thinking of the national youth voluntary service—will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well ? obviously , local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open , but , in terms of the direct support from welsh government , can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time ? kirsty williams am: no formal decision has been made , but if people are in receipt of a government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public— helen mary jones am: because it 's not safe . kirsty williams am: —because it 's not safe to do so , i do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying , 'we 'll have our money back , thank you very much . ' lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . helen mary jones am: that will make a lot of people happy , thank you . [ laughter . ] kirsty williams am: as i said , we are facing unprecedented circumstances . the normal rules of engagement have to change and , those organisations , we 'll need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal , and we would n't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that . our call to the youth service is a call to arms , though . when we 're trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for front-line staff children , they have a valuable role to play and i know that local government and the council for wales of voluntary youth services are already in discussion about how youth services— . many of our youth services work on an outreach basis . those traditional youth clubs , because of austerity , are not necessarily there anymore , so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work , and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier . helen mary jones am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin , briefly , and then we 're going to take one final question from suzy on emergency legislation . hefin david am: all right . i 'll declare an interest as a parent of a child with additional learning needs , although the question i 'm about to ask does n't reflect her interests . additional learning needs pupils who are waiting outcomes of referrals—if they 're currently waiting an outcome of a referral , will that process will be suspended or will it continue as normal ? and , if it is suspended , will it pick up where it left off from this point ? kirsty williams am: i think we have to recognise that the ability to deliver business as usual has been massively compromised . i 'm sure people will try and continue to do their normal activities and their normal jobs , but that might not be possible . i will have to check that , hefin , to be honest . i do n't want to give you any false assurance if , actually , the intelligence on the ground is that that simply will not be able to happen . but we don't— hefin david am: can we have a clear line on that ? kirsty williams am: we do n't want to jeopardise anybody , but as i said , some of the normal services are simply not available as everybody turns their attention to trying to respond to the pandemic . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . final question—because i know that the minister 's got a lot of things that she needs to get on with—from suzy on emergency legislation . suzy davies am: i 'm not going to ask you if you 'll use any powers you get under the emergency legislation , but are you able to give us some indication of what they might be ? kirsty williams am: sure . for instance , the bill will provide welsh ministers with powers to temporarily close schools or other educational institutions , childcare premises ; powers to give temporary continuity direction—so , actually , the other way around , force things to be open—and to be able to direct resources . so , that includes , as i said , i could direct something to stay open if that institution was trying to close down . the powers also give flexibility to maybe be able to direct staff to other institutions that they would not normally work in , if that was part of our resilience needs . we 'd also be looking at , for instance , relaxing requirements around ratios in childcare settings , or we might be wanting to do things around food . so , obviously , we have rules around the level of nutrition that schools should be giving their children . if there is a continuing role for schools in providing food , we might have to be a bit more flexible about what that might look like . so , those kinds of flexibilities—to be able to suspend things , direct things—that we would not normally have in normal circumstances . suzy davies am: okay . and just to finish this one off—you may not be able to answer this one , in all fairness—in those situations where it 's the government who says 'no ' to various things , does that then help people in the situation of dawn 's nursery , and insurance claims suddenly become more likely ? kirsty williams am: i 'm not an expert on insurance , and i do n't know if anybody here can help me . but what my understanding is , is that even where government has given a direction that does not necessarily mean that you will be covered by your insurance . what we 're finding in the private sector is that insurance companies are not paying out , because even when a government has directed it , they do not regard this as a disruption to business . so , the insurance industry is not my area of expertise . suzy davies am: no , no , i accept that . kirsty williams am: it 's not my area of expertise , but from what i understand from discussions around the cabinet table , this is particularly problematic . let me give you an example about how we 've been trying to overcome some of this—it feels like an awfully long time ago now— you 'll be aware that we gave directions earlier around cancellation of school trips abroad . trying to make sure that that direction came from the foreign and commonwealth office , rather than the department for education was a real battle , because again there were fears that , unless that advice came from the foreign and commonwealth office , insurance would not kick in , and that was a two-day discussion . suzy davies am: okay . this is helpful to know , actually . kirsty williams am: so , these are the kinds of things that we 're grappling with . but , as i said , thinking about it , that was only last week , but it feels like an aeon ago . suzy davies am: i 'm not holding you to that , but it helps us manage the questions we get asked . kirsty williams am: yes , but as i said , insurance is not my area of expertise . suzy davies am: no , but thank you for answering . lynne neagle am: okay . well , we 've come to the end of our time . can i thank you for attending this morning , and your officials ? we do recognise what an incredibly challenging time this is , and we 'd like to place on record our thanks to all of you for the work that you 're doing to try and see us through this crisis . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . thank you again , all of you , for your attendance . item 3 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

according to kirsty , this was a really worrying time for children and young people . for schools and institutions , they had the formal nhs counselling services to the check-ins . they were concerned that for some children , their access to their counselling was via their school . they knew that and they were just double checking the capacity of online counseling that already existed - online counselling tools that children already used because they did not want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor .

what considerations were they giving to how that mental health and well-being might be supported through what was an incredibly difficult time for everyone ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . i 've received apologies for absence from siân gwenllian , and i 'm very pleased to welcome helen mary jones , who is substituting for siân today . can i ask whether members want to declare any interests , please ? can i just , then , place on record that i have got a son who was about to do a-levels , so is affected by the exam decision ? we 'll move on , then , to our substantive item today , which is an evidence session with the welsh government around the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on education in wales . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams , minister for education ; steve davies , who is director of the education directorate ; huw morris , who is the group director , skills , higher education and lifelong learning ; and rob orford , who is the chief scientific adviser for health . thank you all for coming . we know that this is a really difficult and pressurised time for everyone , and we appreciate your attendance . minister , i understand you wanted to make an opening statement today . kirsty williams am: yes , if that 's okay , chair . as you know , it 's not usually my practice to do that , but i think it is important today . covid-19 coronavirus is one of the most significant issues that the welsh government and the people of wales have dealt with in recent times . dealing with the impacts of this pandemic is extremely challenging . things are changing on an hourly basis , and we have to make decisions quickly to ensure public safety . but i would like to assure you that our aim , and my aim , and my main concern as the education minister is to protect all staff and pupils in our schools and other educational settings . but we also have a duty to ensure continuing and continuity of education . public health is clearly the priority here , but that does not change our belief that no child should miss out on any education , unless absolutely necessary . so , the decision to close all schools from tomorrow for statutory education provision was not taken lightly , but i believe it was necessary , given the advice and recommendations that we had received from a public health perspective and the situation that was developing on the ground . from next week , schools will have a new purpose . they will help support those most in need , including people involved in the immediate response to the coronavirus outbreak , and i 'm working with my colleagues in the cabinet , with government officials and our partners in local government to develop and finalise these plans . the key areas that we 're looking at are supporting and safeguarding the vulnerable and ensuring continuity of learning . this includes all of those who benefit from free school meals and children with additional learning needs . i can confirm that all maintained schools in wales already have access to a range of digital tools that can support distance learning through the world-class hwb digital learning platform , including virtual classrooms and video-conferencing facilities . a guide on what tools are available and how schools can use them has been developed and is being promoted widely . yesterday , i announced that , whilst there are no easy choices , we have agreed that the best way forward is not to proceed with the summer exam series . learners due to sit these exams will be awarded a fair grade to recognise their work , drawing on a range of information that is available , and i will announce further details shortly , but i felt it necessary to give early certainty to students and to staff . i would like to put on record my thanks to everyone working in education settings for the hard work that they have put in over the last few months in dealing with the virus and ensuring that pupils have been able to continue to learn . we need to continue to do this work together , as we face the continuing challenges posed by the coronavirus . diolch yn fawr . lynne neagle am: thank you very much , minister , for that statement . we 'll go to questions from members now , and i 've got some questions from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . can i thank you , kirsty , for your statement and the really difficult decisions that you 've been having to make ? you 've already indicated in your statement this morning that these decisions are not taken lightly , and we understand that that is the case across government . so , thank you for what you 've been doing . you 've outlined a little bit further there in your statement to us this morning about the new purpose . i take from what you 're saying that you have n't really developed that yet in terms of exactly what that is going to look like . you 've talked about the children of key workers , free school meals , additional learning needs . is there anything else you can tell us about that at the moment and how you might staff the schools in those particular areas ? kirsty williams am: thank you , dawn . so , you're absolutely right , our priority now is to operationalise , with colleagues in local government and schools , a practical response . and i have to say , we 're working to timescales that i would have hoped to have avoided , but given the fact that we 're having to make these decisions quite quickly , i hope that you will understand that perhaps where we start on monday might change when we have more time and more opportunities to develop programmes going forward . steve will be able to give you more details of the practical work that has already been going on , but our expectation will be that schools will be playing an important part in providing safe and secure places for children of those on the front-line response to dealing with the coronavirus to attend , and work is already under way with local authorities and individual schools on what that will look like for the emergency situation on monday . our other priority is indeed free school meals , and , again , where we eventually end up might be a different place to where we are on monday . again , we 're responding to the emergency situation that there will be families that were expecting a free school meal on monday , and , again , individual schools and local authorities are developing those plans at pace to be able to provide an emergency response as we work out a longer term plan to deal with the situation . the same thing also goes for additional learning needs , and attending to the needs of that particular group of learners . so , those conversations began a few days ago . i had the opportunity to meet with the first minister and andrew morgan , the leader of the welsh local government association , yesterday to talk about what local government could do , and what they were already doing . those plans in some places are already quite developed , and are now working at pace , but i hope you will understand that where we start on monday is the emergency response , and that work will develop as we go forward . but , steve , perhaps you could— ? because steve was the one making all those phone calls and doing the practical operational stuff , rather than me . steve . steve davies: in short , the new purpose is to meet the needs of particular groups of children and young people . in some cases , some of the response to supporting free school meals , in the short term in particular , we may use the schools as part of that , and i 'm certain that will happen in some cases . the second area is looking at how we support the children of key workers . now , there is still work to be done on identifying exactly the categories of key workers , but i think it 's really encouraging that in my discussions yesterday—i spoke with all 22 directors of education , and the examples we 're picking up in their work with schools is they 're already ahead of the curve in working with schools . so , schools have identified the number of children with health workers . it will grow , and we will need to look at that range . then , the third area is vulnerable children . they 're vulnerable sometimes in terms of education other than at school , vulnerable in terms of mental health , and for those children , as well as having an experience that we want to be planned , some have compared it to a snow day , particularly on monday , when you 're putting something together in the short term , but it will not be a formal curriculum that those children would normally go through . so , the range of activities—some will be focused on educational activities , some will be cultural , some will be sporting , and that plan will be developed on the basis of the age range of children , which in some cases may go from extremely young children up to those at the age of 16 in our all-through schools , but there will be a planned set of activities to cater for those children . what we are doing currently—i have staff back at cathays park who are in touch and working with directors of education to ensure that schools over the next two days will have been able to identify , at least at the earlier stage , in terms of health workers , the type and numbers of people . there are already schools who have informed us , and local authorities , of their plans for these activities to be starting next week , which is quite amazing , actually , given where we are . but we are expecting , and we 're writing to schools today , that during the course of next week , headteachers to be in schools , and with their staff , taking into consideration the health guidance as to which staff should or should not be in , and in that period from next monday through the two-week period , to easter , we expect staff to be both planning for delivery post easter , but also , as i said , building on and reflecting the good practice that 's already in place for schools that have engaged in activities , and i 'm sure a number of them will be inviting and enabling those children to come in on monday . so , monday will be a challenge for some , and not all will be delivering it , but we will be working so that we can get as much as possible delivered for those groups over the next two weeks , and particularly to have resilient programmes post easter for the groups of children in those three categories that i said . dawn bowden am: those that have been identified . can i just clarify one thing ? one of the identified vulnerable groups would clearly be children on the at-risk register . they would be included . steve davies: yes , definitely . vulnerable children , yes . kirsty williams am: in our discussions , we have asked local government to be working with the social services departments and individual schools to identify those children who may be in that situation . we know that , for some children , being at school is part of their safeguarding arrangements , and obviously we will need to be able to respond to those needs . steve davies: i wrote specifically yesterday to all directors of education to be assured that , for those children , the register is up to date and the plans are in place . i 'm working with albert heaney my colleague , the director for social services , who is meeting with the 22 directors of social services today to look to ensure that we are joined up in ensuring none of these children fall through the gap . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got a supplementary from hefin , and then suzy . hefin david am: a very quick and simple question : how are you going to communicate this to parents ? there 's a bigger picture and it 's changing all the time , as you said . the welsh government have a route to communication . the most helpful thing i 've seen is that public health wales have a single website with information regarding the wider issue of the virus . how will this then be cascaded to schools , because there 's obviously a time lag ? so , have you considered how this is going to be communicated directly to parents ? kirsty williams am: we 're using all of our platforms of communication to get these messages across . so , we 're using the more informal methods of communication , but are relying on a systematic approach via individual directors and through to individual schools . welsh government already has a dedicated website page with all of the relevant information about coronavirus . we 're looking , as quickly as we can , to have a frequently asked education questions page that we can update . understandably , people are communicating to us on twitter asking questions . it is impossible for the communications team here to be able to respond individually to every single person that is sending facebook messages and sending tweets , so the best way we can do that is to collate the types of questions people are asking and then to be able to have a frequently updated question and answer page to try to respond to that . with regard to parents , for instance , we 're aware of schools that have already sent a questionnaire out last night to parents saying , 'do you consider yourself to be a key worker ? do you work in the nhs ? please let us know by tomorrow so we can put arrangements in place for your children . ' so , schools are already taking the initiative and having those conversations with parents about what their needs will be . and , as i said , hefin , will it be perfect on monday ? no . it wo n't be perfect by monday , because we 're working to such constrained timescales . but we will continue to build that resilience . we also have to think about systems that look at what might the epidemic do and have systems of resilience that may work next week , given the situation we find ourselves in with public health advice at the moment . but that public health advice may change . therefore , have we got a system that will be resilient in those circumstances ? these are some of the challenges that we 're having to grapple with . so , as i said , what happens on monday might look very different to where we are if schools are still off in may . so , i hope people will understand that we are working in those kinds of scenarios . lynne neagle am: suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: yes , just on this question of vulnerable children , i 'm just wondering how much discretion teachers are going to have in including individual children who may not be obviously under social services ' care or on a risk register or whatever . teachers know their pupils and , very sensitively , they could include people who may not be obviously in need . kirsty williams am: we would absolutely respect the professional judgment of individual headteachers to be able to have those conversations with their directors . as you said , quite rightly , they are the individuals who know their children best and know which children , perhaps , will need this extra support . we will put no constraints on those teachers trying to do that work . suzy davies am: okay . the second part of my question is : there were going to be easter holidays anyway , were n't there ? what was going to happen about free-school-meal children during that period ? has that gone out of the window now , the normal holiday provision for children ? because that 's not there normally , is it , except in separate— kirsty williams am: we do find ourselves in a strange situation . my understanding is what we 're trying to work to is that we would have ongoing provision and not to make some strange , 'you get this for two weeks , then you do n't get it for two weeks , and then you 're back in . ' my understanding is , in england , that is what they 're going to do . we 're trying to create a system where it will be seamless and it will not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays . it wo n't matter to those nurses and doctors who will need to be in work during those weeks . we 're trying to create a system that will run uniformly . that 's our policy goal at the moment . lynne neagle am: helen mary . helen mary jones am: just briefly , building on suzy 's question , one particular group of children and young people that i hope will be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category is young carers . for some of them , they may not be able to come into school because the people they 're caring for may have to be excluded because of their conditions . but i think that , for other young carers , coming to school is an absolute lifeline , because they 're working at home . so , i do n't know if it 's appropriate for you to specifically mention those in discussions with local authorities , but it 's a group of young people who , again , may not be vulnerable in other ways , but because of their caring responsibilities they may need school . and the other group—and this , i suppose , goes back to suzy 's point about teachers knowing their young people—is the children who may be living in situations where they 're at risk of witnessing domestic abuse . again , these may very well not be children who are in any formal contact with social services , but being at home may be really not a good place for them to be . so , again , i 'd put in an appeal for that to be something that perhaps can be raised with schools . if a teacher is worried about what a child 's circumstances are like at home , whether they can be , as you said , kirsty , included as one of the— . they may not be formally identified , but if the teacher knows that they 're at risk , or there is an instinct that they 're at risk , they might be able to be included in children who are allowed to take advantage of this special provision you 're making at this difficult time . kirsty williams am: we will certainly raise those issues . we have to do that in the context of what is deliverable , and we also have to do that in the context of the public health advice that we are receiving as well . one of the reasons why schools are closing is to help manage this disease . we know that the ability for school closures to make a contribution to that diminishes if we have significant children in school still . so , we will take these issues into consideration , but remembering this is part of an epidemic mitigation plan . rob is the expert on that , not me . rob orford: yes , absolutely . this is a rapidly-evolving problem and the scale is something that we have n't seen in 100 years , and so we 're having to evolve and iterate things as we go . next week , i think , will look different to this week . so , it kind of is what it is . we 've all got a role to play , and schools certainly have a significant role to play in breaking those chains of transmission . areas that we 're worried about are displacement activities . if we close the schools , then people collect at others ' houses . we need to send a really clear message that you 're all part of the solution , and the things that you do by distancing yourselves from your friends and your family are really important for us to get on top of this outbreak . the more that we can do that , the easier it will be when we go forward . helen mary jones am: i 'm sure that that 's true , but i 'm sure that we would n't be wanting a child who 's in a very pressured environment with perhaps a very difficult relationship between mum and dad— . it may be very important for those children to be out of that for some of the time . hopefully , we 're talking about relatively small numbers , but i just— . kirsty williams am: we will look at vulnerability in a holistic way . lynne neagle am: janet , you had a supplementary . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair , and good morning , minister , and your team . can i just put on record my thanks for all that you 're having to endure at this moment ? i think it 's fair to say you have the support of assembly members and , indeed , our communities . now , the question i have : if cylch meithrin have to close , where will they get money from to pay their staff ? because , currently , thankfully , there 's support for businesses . lynne neagle am: janet , we 're not doing cylch meithrin at the moment ; we are sticking with schools , as we discussed in advance . dawn . dawn bowden am: can i just get some clarity , steve , around what you were saying in terms of next week ? because i think the practical applications of this—and i understand that you do n't know all of this yet , i understand that—the practical applications are what is coming to us , obviously , with constituents saying , 'well , what 's going to happen to that ? ' just so that i can be clear , are you saying that , at this stage , every headteacher will be in school on monday , as will all their staff ? steve davies: within the scope of the guidance in terms of their health , the expectation—and this will be conveyed in letters by the minister today , to be made clear—is that they are closing for the majority of pupils , but our expectation within the guidance is that the headteacher with their staff will be coming in ; for some to start the delivery of what we just described , but that will probably be small numbers , but more importantly to plan to ensure that , after the formal easter period , which is school holidays , the schools are geared to cater for the range of pupils that we 've been discussing . dawn bowden am: so , would you anticipate—again , i know this is all a bit 'if and when ' , and it depends on the changing nature of the advice , but from what you 're saying , i think we can probably anticipate that , as we go forward , there will probably be fewer schools opening and operable—that we may be moving those children on to fewer sites . would that possibly— ? kirsty williams am: that is a potential . so , we already know that one of our local authorities already has identified a strategic pattern of schools that they will want to operate in this way . that local authority has already chosen those locations , and is already having communications with how they will then staff those centres . so , that could well— . that , i expect , in the longer term , will be the nature of the provision that we will get to . but that 's not for us to dictate . the local authorities are best placed to understand what is the best , pragmatic use of the resources that they have available ; and of course those resources , primarily , are human beings . so , we 've talked a lot this morning in the context of teaching staff , teaching assistants , but we 're also having discussions with local authorities , and i met with the council for wales of voluntary youth services this week , to look at deploying youth workers , to look to be deploying other staff that the local authority may employ , like sports development officers . there may be cultural officers that can have something to offer . welsh government will be talking with a range of our partners who perhaps their normal activities ca n't continue at the moment , but actually have personnel who want to add to this effort , who want to be able to be part of a provision going forward in the longer term , to be able to provide a great place for children to be . we want to give parents , who we are asking— . let 's think about it , in these worst of times , we 're asking parents to leave their children so that they can go and do essential work , and some of that essential work is putting themselves at risk , potentially . and we want to give those parents confidence that , when they leave their child with us , that child will receive something really worthwhile , and they can direct all of their attention to doing their job . lynne neagle am: just before you— . janet , have you got a supplementary on schools now , not on early years settings ? janet finch-saunders am: i lost the signal before , so it 's a little bit confusing at this end , so bear with me . just in terms of the closure of schools , i have been asked by teachers what does new purpose—you may have covered it , but bear in mind [ inaudible . ] —mean in practice . and also , they 're already asking what will next— ? i know you said earlier that next week could look and probably will look significantly different than this week , but what can they expect to be happening next week in terms of this new purpose work ? lynne neagle am: we 've covered that , janet . kirsty williams am: first of all , janet , i just want to say thank you very much for your kind comments . that 's really , really kind of you . we will be sending a letter today to clarify those positions . so , each school will receive letters today about the expectations of schools next week . lynne neagle am: i think you 're having trouble hearing us , are n't you , so i think— ? janet finch-saunders am: no , i heard that loud and clear . lynne neagle am: but i think you missed the earlier comments , when we went into some detail on the new purpose of schools . so , i 'm sorry about that ; we are having some problems with the connection . janet finch-saunders am: yes , we could n't get a signal . lynne neagle am: dawn . dawn bowden am: just in relation to special schools and how they will fit into this new purpose arrangement . kirsty williams am: yes , they 're absolutely central to that planning . we know , again , that some of these children are our most vulnerable and they are some of our most pressurised families . therefore , the same situation that we 've just described for maintained schools also applies to special schools . we 'll be having discussions about what arrangements can be made for those children within their own usual settings . in some cases , that may not be possible . so , again , already local authorities are making different provision . can i give a shout out to the work of rhondda cynon taf in this regard , who are already doing some excellent work with regard to how they can keep in touch with their children who usually would attend their special schools . but , again , steve can give more detail . steve davies: i think special schools have already been hit by this challenge , because a significant proportion of their children , because of their conditions , have not been coming to school , they 've been isolated . but the principle we 've used there is , actually , even if it 's a minority of children who go to those schools and are vulnerable , they deserve and need that support through the school . so , we would expect that to function with the focus on vulnerable children . but similarly , even in special schools , there will be children whose parents will be key workers , so we would expect them to apply that same principle . just quickly in response to the earlier question , while we may bring some groups of children into separate schools , we ’ ll have to continue with the principle of keeping social distance and any provision for a child in a special school in a different setting would be unlikely , given the nature of the special school , so we would look to cater for that within the original school . dawn bowden am: just a couple more questions from me . it ’ s likely , because i know it has already happened , that some schools might actually close before monday . some schools have already partially closed . are you quite happy that headteachers still have the discretion to do that , if they feel that ’ s the right thing to do ? kirsty williams am: in this situation , the discretion of the head still remains . as i said , we will be communicating with all schools today about our expectations , if at all possible , to have schools open for staff to do some of this planning and to be able to respond to these priority needs that we 've just talked about . steve davies: the rationale of headteachers for closing schools up to now has been that they ca n't cope with the safety of the children . i think , moving forward , it 's unlikely that that would be a rationale that headteachers would want to use for not engaging and planning for the future . dawn bowden am: we 're only talking about one more day , now , anyway , are n't we ? so , just in terms of confirmed cases in schools , is your view at this stage that , if there is a confirmed case in a school , once that school has been deep-cleaned , it can reopen again ? kirsty williams am: if we had a confirmed case in a school , then all the usual mechanisms arranged by public health wales would kick in at that point . dawn bowden am: okay . and my final question is in relation to the position of early years and childcare settings . i know that kind of crosses over into somebody else 's portfolio as well , but i think we know that . certainly what i 've seen , and i 'm sure this is true elsewhere as well , we 've seen nurseries closing down because the parents are actually taking the children out of those nurseries . i 've got one in particular , there are kids from the ages of 6 to 12 years in there , and the parents are taking them out . they 've got 30 staff there , catering for 200 children and no children to care for and the organisation , at this stage , is unable to claim on their insurance for the ongoing payment of those staff wages . is there any advice that we can give to people in that situation at this stage ? kirsty williams am: sure . as you say , many of these settings are businesses—people 's businesses and they play a hugely important role and it 's a very worrying time for them . we have said that we will continue to pay for childcare , delivered under the childcare offer even when a child is unable , or a parent is unwilling , to take up that place . so , if that setting is receiving a childcare payment from the welsh government as part of our childcare offer , that will be paid , regardless of whether that child attends or not . and i know that we 're also working with local authorities to ensure a similar position on flying start childcare and early education . so , that payment will be made , regardless of whether a child is attending . it 's also important that childcare settings will be able to apply for the various packages of support that are being made available by my colleague , ken skates . lynne neagle am: hefin , then janet . hefin david am: yes , i 'd just like to turn that around from the parents ' point of view . with schools closing , there are a lot of parents then losing 10 hours of free childcare , but from a settings point of view , they 'll continue to be able to receive , for the time being , the nursery care . kirsty williams am: yes , so the decision that has been taken by my colleague , julie morgan , is that settings should stay open at the moment unless public health changes . that 's being kept under constant review on public health . again , the issue is that we know that that childcare is vital to many families , especially—and we 're particularly concerned about those individuals who are trying to help us overcome and solve these problems . if you have any specific questions about that , we 'll be happy to take them back to julie morgan . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: is this the cylch question ? lynne neagle am: yes , please . janet finch-saunders am: sorry , thank you . yes , just basically , cylch meithrin , there are concerns— [ interruption . ] lynne neagle am: we 've lost janet . we 'll come back to her . kirsty williams am: i think if the issue is about funding for cylch meithrin , these are not normal circumstances . as a welsh government , we will take every step to provide continuity of funding , if at all possible . we will overcome this , and when we overcome this situation we find ourselves in , we will need those childcare settings , we will need those private businesses and we will need our cylch meithrin to be there to respond and to be able to go on doing the job that they usually do for us . and if there is any way that we can , as a government , ensure that that happens by carrying on funding things , even if they are not able to run , all usual— [ inaudible . ] — around service-level agreements are off . i 'm not setting the precedent—let me make that absolutely clear . [ laughter . ] but , you know , we will not undermine businesses and voluntary provision like cylch by withdrawing welsh government funding . i hope i 've been clear . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you for that . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , kirsty . lynne neagle am: if we can move on to talk about exams , obviously you made the announcement yesterday . i completely understand that everything is a very fast-moving situation , but , as you know , there are a lot of questions that people have about young people who 've put a lot of work in . are you able to tell us any more today ? in particular , have you got any idea about timescales now for setting out what the approach will be to handling the lack of summer exams ? kirsty williams am: yes , it is a devastating decision to have to have been taken , but i have done so on the very , very clear and unambiguous advice from qualifications wales . i met with qualifications wales and the wjec yesterday . what was most important to them was that i made an early decision and i did not equivocate on what would happen for the exams . i was able to make an informal decision at that meeting , and then , of course , there is a formal process that we have to go through . that , now , allows qualifications wales and the exam board to operationalise that decision , and they will be communicating with schools as quickly as possible about what schools will need to do to ensure that the systems that they will now put in place can work . we are trying , as far as we can , as i understand it , to be able to mirror as closely as possible the usual results day , for instance . it might not be possible , because , of course , we 're dealing with a situation that requires human beings to be involved in it , and those human beings could find themselves unwell . so , our best attempts will be to maintain the normal rhythm of an exams day in august , but that has to be caveated by the fact that we 're dealing with difficult circumstances . but , the wjec and qualifications wales will be making urgent communications to exam centres to explain what will need to happen next . lynne neagle am: okay . janet , you had a question on this . janet finch-saunders am: yes , i think i raised it yesterday , kirsty , but you were receiving loads of questions . i 'd just ask for some further clarification about coursework , because only 30 per cent of that is done . years 11 and 13 , typically , in my case they 're what 's been raised with me—do you have any advice for them ? kirsty williams am: okay , so , all exams are cancelled , but year 11 and year 13 will be given a grade—i think that 's a distinction that people need to be aware of . that is because those years and those grades are gateway qualifications , and they are points of movement in the education system . so , it 's really important for those students that they are not disadvantaged in any way by not being able to receive a grade that helps them to make a decision as a qualifying step into what they will do next , whether that be university , whether that be a degree apprenticeship or whether that be going into sixth form , into a college , into an apprenticeship or into some work-based learning opportunities . that 's why we have to focus on those children , because for them , it is absolutely critical that we do . we are at an advantage in wales , can i say ? because of the nature of our examination system , those students already have a lot of externally assessed work that we can use as a basis to move forward on . because we 've kept our as-levels , we have got that data . because we have a gcse system— . our year 11s , if they 're doing triple science , they 've already done 40 per cent of their paper , so we 're very fortunate . because of the structures that we have got in our qualification system , there is already lots and lots of externally-verified work that we can use , alongside , potentially , teacher evaluation of students as well . and i think that 's really important . we ’ re starting from a better base than simply having none of that externally-verified data . what will also be important is that these children have confidence in those qualifications , and so we will be looking at a modulated arrangement within wales , and i know that qualifications wales are discussing with their counterparts across the uk a modulated system across the uk . so , actually , we can make sure that our standards are maintained by actually having that modulation across the uk . so , we know that those children never have to worry about the rigour that has gone into determining that grade . so , they can have real confidence . lynne neagle am: okay . helen mary . helen mary jones am: thank you . a supplementary question that might feed into that moderation . you 'll know that the national union of students has suggested that black and minority ethnic children and children from the working class , on the whole , do n't do as well , in terms of their assessment by their own teachers . i do n't know what their evidence is for that . we also know , of course , that boys tend to do better in exams , and girls tend to do better at coursework , for whatever reason that is . so , just to ask you at this early stage to build in those considerations around potential unconscious bias into that overall system that you 're talking about . and , of course , you are right to say that , because we have got some elements of external moderation here , those factors may be less for us in wales than they might for colleagues in england . kirsty williams am: yes , i think we are starting at a different base , thank goodness . so , you 're quite right . as i said , students will have done unit 1 papers last year if they 're gcse students . dare i say it , some might even have done early entry . so , we still have elements of coursework that are externally verified . so , children might well have done lots of oral exams in their english and in their welsh language . so , we have lots of pieces of work that will have been externally verified . i certainly will ensure that these concerns are passed on . i 'm sure that qualifications wales are thinking about it . i have every confidence that they and the wjec will come up with a very comprehensive way of establishing those grades , but i have to say , in some ways , i have to step back now , because you would not expect me , in normal circumstances , to dictate to the wjec how much percentage goes for that , and how much percentage is allocated for that ; that would not be appropriate for a minister . my job is to make the decision on the examinations on the basis of having confidence that what can be put in place is fair and is equitable , and i have confidence that that will be the case . helen mary jones am: thank you . lynne neagle am: suzy . suzy davies am: a few things from me . one is , obviously , pupils are being asked to work at home as well now , some of whom will be doing gcse and a-level courses . so , there 's just a question , generally , from me— because we 're encouraging these kids to carry on working—how that will be accommodated by qualifications wales , i guess , in this modulation process . it may be that your at-home work will be of a higher standard or a lower standard than a teacher would be expecting . secondly , you mentioned the as-levels , of course , as being of value at the moment , but we 've got people in year 12 who now wo n't be doing their ass . is there any steer at this stage about what they will be expected to do ? will they be doing two sets of exams next year , for example ? or is as just off the table ? in which case , how are the a2s going to be calculated in due course ? and then , finally from me , we do have some vocational qualifications that are up for examination as well—your btecs , and i think it 's the association of accounting technicians , which is a lot of computer-based learning—which is due to be examined within three weeks . those aren ’ t a-levels or gcses . i appreciate that you may not have the answer just at the moment , but are they off as well is the question , i guess ? kirsty williams am: with regard to as-levels—no final decision has been made for exactly how those students will be treated . there are a range of options that could be used , but again , we will want to be thinking about student well-being , fairness and equity in that regard , and i will update members as soon as i have received definitive advice from qualifications wales around that , and that has n't happened yet . with regard to other types of qualifications , as you will be aware , the vast majority of btecs is a modular , continually-assessed piece of work , and we would have every expectation that btecs will be able to be awarded , but clearly , those conversations are with awarding bodies—they tend to be uk awarding bodies , rather then necessarily our wjec exam board—and those conversations are ongoing . but i have every expectation that those qualifications will be awarded and , of course , because of their nature there 's even more evidence of continued assessment . huw , i do n't know if there 's anything else that you would like to add about those types of qualifications . huw morris: no . i think you 've covered most of it . i do n't have a definitive answer for the att qualification , but we can look into that and come back to you . suzy davies am: well , i 've just had a constituent ask , so that would be very helpful . and homeworking— kirsty williams am: homeworking , right . suzy davies am: —is that going to count towards the assessments , overall assessments ? kirsty williams am: well , potentially , as i said . i do n't know the exact elements . what will be absolutely necessary is that qualifications wales and the wjec will be able to give absolute clarity and simplicity around how those grades will be arrived at , because parents , teachers and students will want to know that , and my expectation is on them to be able to clearly communicate what elements will and will not be taken into consideration when awarding those grades . suzy davies am: that 's great . at least we covered it . thank you , minister—thank you , kirsty . lynne neagle am: and , just before we move on , have the universities across the uk indicated that they are content with this approach going forward—content to accept students on this basis ? kirsty williams am: certainly . there have been discussions with universities and ucas , of course , that this also has a bearing on . one of the— . and the views of university and how university terms might be impacted is one of the ways and one of the reasons that we 've factored in to making these decisions . those discussions with universities are ongoing , are n't they , huw ? huw morris: yes . so , we 've been in regular conversation with universities wales and through them with universities uk and we 've received every indication that the approach that 's been adopted here has been welcomed by the institutions . those conversations will continue as we work through the practicalities of how the gradings that are awarded are going to feed through into university admissions decisions and enrolment . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . well , we 've got some questions now from suzy on the potential closures of colleges and universities . suzy davies am: okay . well , it 's a very general question , really . i appreciate you 've already indicated there are lots of ongoing conversations , but my understanding is whether colleges or universities close is pretty much still at their own discretion . we 're going to be asking some questions on emergency legislation shortly , which may impact on the answer you can give today , but what sort of conversations are you having with fe and he at the moment about how they decide ? kirsty williams am: well , you 're absolutely right . as we often say in this committee , universities are autonomous institutions—a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question . universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them . colleges are in a similar position , looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods , and the bill , potentially , does give us more powers of intervention in both the fe and the he sector . suzy davies am: i might ask you about that in a minute , because i do n't even know what the bill says yet . kirsty williams am: huw , i do n't know if there 's anything you want to add . huw morris: no—just to confirm what 's been said and also to add in that independent training providers , similarly autonomous , like colleges and universities , have been moving in the same direction . we 've been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that 's been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies . we 've got consistency in the approach and a common desire , and investment in moving towards online support for students . suzy davies am: and there 's still this safety net idea . certainly , colleges have indicated , as with schools , that , for the most vulnerable learners , they 'll have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis . huw morris: that 's my understanding , yes , and , again , we 've been in regular conversation with them about that . my understanding is that they 're going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions . suzy davies am: that 's fair enough . and , presumably , education maintenance allowance will still be paid . kirsty williams am: yes . arrangements have been made to ensure that ema continues to be paid to all students who are entitled . suzy davies am: that 's right . you indicated that any welsh government support 's going to stay , whatever the circumstances are—in your portfolio . kirsty williams am: yes . i 'm doing my best , but it 's an absolute yes on the ema . there will be no disruption to ema . suzy davies am: okay . you might get some further questions on he and fe . lynne neagle am: yes . we 've got some further questions , indeed , from helen mary and then hefin . helen mary jones am: now or in a bit ? lynne neagle am: yes . helen mary jones am: just further to ema , of course , at the moment , that has an attendance qualification , does n't it ? and you do n't get your ema if you do n't turn up . should we take from your last answer that that attendance qualification does n't apply anymore ? kirsty williams am: yes . they ca n't turn up if the institution is not open , and that 's not their fault . helen mary jones am: no , but that is something that 's been a worry , so that 's really encouraging to hear . thinking about students in higher education , can you give an assurance that student maintenance payments will continue as normal ? is that the intention ? kirsty williams am: yes . helen mary jones am: that 's really good to hear . and have you given any special ministerial instruction to student finance wales on processing applications for support or changes of circumstances , or is that something that 's kind of ongoing at the moment ? kirsty williams am: those conversations are ongoing with the student loans company . as i said , we anticipate no disruption to— . we do n't anticipate any change in the approach to students as a result of this . individual student circumstances could well change and our expectation would be that the student loans company would respond to that . all i would say is , just to remind people : people who work for the student loans company are no more able to resist this disease than anybody else . there will undoubtedly in some cases be really practical challenges to service delivery , simply because organisations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they are reacting to social-distancing messages from the government . so , i think we just need to bear that in mind : that these organisations are doing their best , but , if they are badly affected by staff numbers being off because of the virus , then i hope people will give them due consideration . helen mary jones am: yes , that makes sense , of course , because we 've been told that universities wo n't be able to entirely close , because there will be students who ca n't go home— kirsty williams am: it is their home . helen mary jones am: —overseas students , for example . what discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students ' basic needs are met , that there 's still food , shelter , whatever they need ? kirsty williams am: well , obviously , universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances , and every conversation that huw 's been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that . huw morris: we instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease , not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in china and other parts of south-east asia . and so , as the disease has progressed , we 've seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the uk , and i am assured that the universities here in wales have got processes in place that support those learners . helen mary jones am: that 's really helpful . and on this specifically—last question from me— have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees , should the academic year not be completed ? huw morris: so , as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online , clearly , there are lessons that will need to be taken on board . there are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs . the intention in all of these institutions is that they will complete their course of study . there are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed . failing those institutional mechanisms , there is a uk-wide system through the office of the independent adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have . so , we 're confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs . lynne neagle am: okay . suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: no , mr morris has answered my question . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've got a couple more questions now on vulnerable learners . i 've got helen mary , then hefin . helen mary jones am: i think , chair , the minister has already answered what the— . but thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and well-being of staff and learners across a range of educational settings , or , indeed , young people who ca n't access educational settings , what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and well-being might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone ? kirsty williams am: yes , that is correct . so , our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure—which i think , if we 're honest , we have to acknowledge is what we 're looking at—we would expect school staff—well-being staff , for instance in school—to be doing check-ins—phone check-ins , potentially , or facetime check-ins , with students , just to keep in touch with them as we go forward . we 'll be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available—so , for instance , meic website—so , looking to use a variety of platforms . we do , of course , have the formal nhs counselling services . i 'm concerned , of course , that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school . we know that , and we 're just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists—online counselling tools that children already use because they do n't want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor . they 're already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue , as far as possible , those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered , and their worries . i think we have to remember that this is a really worrying time for children and young people . one of the reasons , again , that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible—and teachers have been working so hard to do that—is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we 've needed and wanted to maintain . children will have worries about their own health ; they 'll have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents ; they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves . so , we need to understand , and i think we will also have to recognise , that this support will have to be ongoing once we 're back to normal , and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience . they are incredibly resilient , and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages . they are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole 'washing your hands ' and things like that than even adults have been . so , they are incredibly resilient , but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them . helen mary jones am: can i just— ? just a supplementary to that—you 've mentioned already , kirsty , the importance of youth services , and , particularly thinking voluntarily youth services , you 've given the commitment , when were talking about mudiad ysgolion meithrin earlier , that services that are part-funded by grants through the welsh government , for example , thinking of the national youth voluntary service—will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well ? obviously , local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open , but , in terms of the direct support from welsh government , can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time ? kirsty williams am: no formal decision has been made , but if people are in receipt of a government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public— helen mary jones am: because it 's not safe . kirsty williams am: —because it 's not safe to do so , i do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying , 'we 'll have our money back , thank you very much . ' lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . helen mary jones am: that will make a lot of people happy , thank you . [ laughter . ] kirsty williams am: as i said , we are facing unprecedented circumstances . the normal rules of engagement have to change and , those organisations , we 'll need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal , and we would n't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that . our call to the youth service is a call to arms , though . when we 're trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for front-line staff children , they have a valuable role to play and i know that local government and the council for wales of voluntary youth services are already in discussion about how youth services— . many of our youth services work on an outreach basis . those traditional youth clubs , because of austerity , are not necessarily there anymore , so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work , and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier . helen mary jones am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin , briefly , and then we 're going to take one final question from suzy on emergency legislation . hefin david am: all right . i 'll declare an interest as a parent of a child with additional learning needs , although the question i 'm about to ask does n't reflect her interests . additional learning needs pupils who are waiting outcomes of referrals—if they 're currently waiting an outcome of a referral , will that process will be suspended or will it continue as normal ? and , if it is suspended , will it pick up where it left off from this point ? kirsty williams am: i think we have to recognise that the ability to deliver business as usual has been massively compromised . i 'm sure people will try and continue to do their normal activities and their normal jobs , but that might not be possible . i will have to check that , hefin , to be honest . i do n't want to give you any false assurance if , actually , the intelligence on the ground is that that simply will not be able to happen . but we don't— hefin david am: can we have a clear line on that ? kirsty williams am: we do n't want to jeopardise anybody , but as i said , some of the normal services are simply not available as everybody turns their attention to trying to respond to the pandemic . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . final question—because i know that the minister 's got a lot of things that she needs to get on with—from suzy on emergency legislation . suzy davies am: i 'm not going to ask you if you 'll use any powers you get under the emergency legislation , but are you able to give us some indication of what they might be ? kirsty williams am: sure . for instance , the bill will provide welsh ministers with powers to temporarily close schools or other educational institutions , childcare premises ; powers to give temporary continuity direction—so , actually , the other way around , force things to be open—and to be able to direct resources . so , that includes , as i said , i could direct something to stay open if that institution was trying to close down . the powers also give flexibility to maybe be able to direct staff to other institutions that they would not normally work in , if that was part of our resilience needs . we 'd also be looking at , for instance , relaxing requirements around ratios in childcare settings , or we might be wanting to do things around food . so , obviously , we have rules around the level of nutrition that schools should be giving their children . if there is a continuing role for schools in providing food , we might have to be a bit more flexible about what that might look like . so , those kinds of flexibilities—to be able to suspend things , direct things—that we would not normally have in normal circumstances . suzy davies am: okay . and just to finish this one off—you may not be able to answer this one , in all fairness—in those situations where it 's the government who says 'no ' to various things , does that then help people in the situation of dawn 's nursery , and insurance claims suddenly become more likely ? kirsty williams am: i 'm not an expert on insurance , and i do n't know if anybody here can help me . but what my understanding is , is that even where government has given a direction that does not necessarily mean that you will be covered by your insurance . what we 're finding in the private sector is that insurance companies are not paying out , because even when a government has directed it , they do not regard this as a disruption to business . so , the insurance industry is not my area of expertise . suzy davies am: no , no , i accept that . kirsty williams am: it 's not my area of expertise , but from what i understand from discussions around the cabinet table , this is particularly problematic . let me give you an example about how we 've been trying to overcome some of this—it feels like an awfully long time ago now— you 'll be aware that we gave directions earlier around cancellation of school trips abroad . trying to make sure that that direction came from the foreign and commonwealth office , rather than the department for education was a real battle , because again there were fears that , unless that advice came from the foreign and commonwealth office , insurance would not kick in , and that was a two-day discussion . suzy davies am: okay . this is helpful to know , actually . kirsty williams am: so , these are the kinds of things that we 're grappling with . but , as i said , thinking about it , that was only last week , but it feels like an aeon ago . suzy davies am: i 'm not holding you to that , but it helps us manage the questions we get asked . kirsty williams am: yes , but as i said , insurance is not my area of expertise . suzy davies am: no , but thank you for answering . lynne neagle am: okay . well , we 've come to the end of our time . can i thank you for attending this morning , and your officials ? we do recognise what an incredibly challenging time this is , and we 'd like to place on record our thanks to all of you for the work that you 're doing to try and see us through this crisis . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . thank you again , all of you , for your attendance . item 3 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

during a prolonged period of closure , they had to acknowledge was what they were looking at—they would expect school staff—well-being staff , for instance in school—to be doing check-ins—phone check-ins , potentially , or facetime check-ins , with students , just to keep in touch with them as we go forward . they would be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that were available—so , for instance , meic website—so , looking to use a variety of platforms .

why did they want to keep schools going as long as possible ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . i 've received apologies for absence from siân gwenllian , and i 'm very pleased to welcome helen mary jones , who is substituting for siân today . can i ask whether members want to declare any interests , please ? can i just , then , place on record that i have got a son who was about to do a-levels , so is affected by the exam decision ? we 'll move on , then , to our substantive item today , which is an evidence session with the welsh government around the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on education in wales . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams , minister for education ; steve davies , who is director of the education directorate ; huw morris , who is the group director , skills , higher education and lifelong learning ; and rob orford , who is the chief scientific adviser for health . thank you all for coming . we know that this is a really difficult and pressurised time for everyone , and we appreciate your attendance . minister , i understand you wanted to make an opening statement today . kirsty williams am: yes , if that 's okay , chair . as you know , it 's not usually my practice to do that , but i think it is important today . covid-19 coronavirus is one of the most significant issues that the welsh government and the people of wales have dealt with in recent times . dealing with the impacts of this pandemic is extremely challenging . things are changing on an hourly basis , and we have to make decisions quickly to ensure public safety . but i would like to assure you that our aim , and my aim , and my main concern as the education minister is to protect all staff and pupils in our schools and other educational settings . but we also have a duty to ensure continuing and continuity of education . public health is clearly the priority here , but that does not change our belief that no child should miss out on any education , unless absolutely necessary . so , the decision to close all schools from tomorrow for statutory education provision was not taken lightly , but i believe it was necessary , given the advice and recommendations that we had received from a public health perspective and the situation that was developing on the ground . from next week , schools will have a new purpose . they will help support those most in need , including people involved in the immediate response to the coronavirus outbreak , and i 'm working with my colleagues in the cabinet , with government officials and our partners in local government to develop and finalise these plans . the key areas that we 're looking at are supporting and safeguarding the vulnerable and ensuring continuity of learning . this includes all of those who benefit from free school meals and children with additional learning needs . i can confirm that all maintained schools in wales already have access to a range of digital tools that can support distance learning through the world-class hwb digital learning platform , including virtual classrooms and video-conferencing facilities . a guide on what tools are available and how schools can use them has been developed and is being promoted widely . yesterday , i announced that , whilst there are no easy choices , we have agreed that the best way forward is not to proceed with the summer exam series . learners due to sit these exams will be awarded a fair grade to recognise their work , drawing on a range of information that is available , and i will announce further details shortly , but i felt it necessary to give early certainty to students and to staff . i would like to put on record my thanks to everyone working in education settings for the hard work that they have put in over the last few months in dealing with the virus and ensuring that pupils have been able to continue to learn . we need to continue to do this work together , as we face the continuing challenges posed by the coronavirus . diolch yn fawr . lynne neagle am: thank you very much , minister , for that statement . we 'll go to questions from members now , and i 've got some questions from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . can i thank you , kirsty , for your statement and the really difficult decisions that you 've been having to make ? you 've already indicated in your statement this morning that these decisions are not taken lightly , and we understand that that is the case across government . so , thank you for what you 've been doing . you 've outlined a little bit further there in your statement to us this morning about the new purpose . i take from what you 're saying that you have n't really developed that yet in terms of exactly what that is going to look like . you 've talked about the children of key workers , free school meals , additional learning needs . is there anything else you can tell us about that at the moment and how you might staff the schools in those particular areas ? kirsty williams am: thank you , dawn . so , you're absolutely right , our priority now is to operationalise , with colleagues in local government and schools , a practical response . and i have to say , we 're working to timescales that i would have hoped to have avoided , but given the fact that we 're having to make these decisions quite quickly , i hope that you will understand that perhaps where we start on monday might change when we have more time and more opportunities to develop programmes going forward . steve will be able to give you more details of the practical work that has already been going on , but our expectation will be that schools will be playing an important part in providing safe and secure places for children of those on the front-line response to dealing with the coronavirus to attend , and work is already under way with local authorities and individual schools on what that will look like for the emergency situation on monday . our other priority is indeed free school meals , and , again , where we eventually end up might be a different place to where we are on monday . again , we 're responding to the emergency situation that there will be families that were expecting a free school meal on monday , and , again , individual schools and local authorities are developing those plans at pace to be able to provide an emergency response as we work out a longer term plan to deal with the situation . the same thing also goes for additional learning needs , and attending to the needs of that particular group of learners . so , those conversations began a few days ago . i had the opportunity to meet with the first minister and andrew morgan , the leader of the welsh local government association , yesterday to talk about what local government could do , and what they were already doing . those plans in some places are already quite developed , and are now working at pace , but i hope you will understand that where we start on monday is the emergency response , and that work will develop as we go forward . but , steve , perhaps you could— ? because steve was the one making all those phone calls and doing the practical operational stuff , rather than me . steve . steve davies: in short , the new purpose is to meet the needs of particular groups of children and young people . in some cases , some of the response to supporting free school meals , in the short term in particular , we may use the schools as part of that , and i 'm certain that will happen in some cases . the second area is looking at how we support the children of key workers . now , there is still work to be done on identifying exactly the categories of key workers , but i think it 's really encouraging that in my discussions yesterday—i spoke with all 22 directors of education , and the examples we 're picking up in their work with schools is they 're already ahead of the curve in working with schools . so , schools have identified the number of children with health workers . it will grow , and we will need to look at that range . then , the third area is vulnerable children . they 're vulnerable sometimes in terms of education other than at school , vulnerable in terms of mental health , and for those children , as well as having an experience that we want to be planned , some have compared it to a snow day , particularly on monday , when you 're putting something together in the short term , but it will not be a formal curriculum that those children would normally go through . so , the range of activities—some will be focused on educational activities , some will be cultural , some will be sporting , and that plan will be developed on the basis of the age range of children , which in some cases may go from extremely young children up to those at the age of 16 in our all-through schools , but there will be a planned set of activities to cater for those children . what we are doing currently—i have staff back at cathays park who are in touch and working with directors of education to ensure that schools over the next two days will have been able to identify , at least at the earlier stage , in terms of health workers , the type and numbers of people . there are already schools who have informed us , and local authorities , of their plans for these activities to be starting next week , which is quite amazing , actually , given where we are . but we are expecting , and we 're writing to schools today , that during the course of next week , headteachers to be in schools , and with their staff , taking into consideration the health guidance as to which staff should or should not be in , and in that period from next monday through the two-week period , to easter , we expect staff to be both planning for delivery post easter , but also , as i said , building on and reflecting the good practice that 's already in place for schools that have engaged in activities , and i 'm sure a number of them will be inviting and enabling those children to come in on monday . so , monday will be a challenge for some , and not all will be delivering it , but we will be working so that we can get as much as possible delivered for those groups over the next two weeks , and particularly to have resilient programmes post easter for the groups of children in those three categories that i said . dawn bowden am: those that have been identified . can i just clarify one thing ? one of the identified vulnerable groups would clearly be children on the at-risk register . they would be included . steve davies: yes , definitely . vulnerable children , yes . kirsty williams am: in our discussions , we have asked local government to be working with the social services departments and individual schools to identify those children who may be in that situation . we know that , for some children , being at school is part of their safeguarding arrangements , and obviously we will need to be able to respond to those needs . steve davies: i wrote specifically yesterday to all directors of education to be assured that , for those children , the register is up to date and the plans are in place . i 'm working with albert heaney my colleague , the director for social services , who is meeting with the 22 directors of social services today to look to ensure that we are joined up in ensuring none of these children fall through the gap . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got a supplementary from hefin , and then suzy . hefin david am: a very quick and simple question : how are you going to communicate this to parents ? there 's a bigger picture and it 's changing all the time , as you said . the welsh government have a route to communication . the most helpful thing i 've seen is that public health wales have a single website with information regarding the wider issue of the virus . how will this then be cascaded to schools , because there 's obviously a time lag ? so , have you considered how this is going to be communicated directly to parents ? kirsty williams am: we 're using all of our platforms of communication to get these messages across . so , we 're using the more informal methods of communication , but are relying on a systematic approach via individual directors and through to individual schools . welsh government already has a dedicated website page with all of the relevant information about coronavirus . we 're looking , as quickly as we can , to have a frequently asked education questions page that we can update . understandably , people are communicating to us on twitter asking questions . it is impossible for the communications team here to be able to respond individually to every single person that is sending facebook messages and sending tweets , so the best way we can do that is to collate the types of questions people are asking and then to be able to have a frequently updated question and answer page to try to respond to that . with regard to parents , for instance , we 're aware of schools that have already sent a questionnaire out last night to parents saying , 'do you consider yourself to be a key worker ? do you work in the nhs ? please let us know by tomorrow so we can put arrangements in place for your children . ' so , schools are already taking the initiative and having those conversations with parents about what their needs will be . and , as i said , hefin , will it be perfect on monday ? no . it wo n't be perfect by monday , because we 're working to such constrained timescales . but we will continue to build that resilience . we also have to think about systems that look at what might the epidemic do and have systems of resilience that may work next week , given the situation we find ourselves in with public health advice at the moment . but that public health advice may change . therefore , have we got a system that will be resilient in those circumstances ? these are some of the challenges that we 're having to grapple with . so , as i said , what happens on monday might look very different to where we are if schools are still off in may . so , i hope people will understand that we are working in those kinds of scenarios . lynne neagle am: suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: yes , just on this question of vulnerable children , i 'm just wondering how much discretion teachers are going to have in including individual children who may not be obviously under social services ' care or on a risk register or whatever . teachers know their pupils and , very sensitively , they could include people who may not be obviously in need . kirsty williams am: we would absolutely respect the professional judgment of individual headteachers to be able to have those conversations with their directors . as you said , quite rightly , they are the individuals who know their children best and know which children , perhaps , will need this extra support . we will put no constraints on those teachers trying to do that work . suzy davies am: okay . the second part of my question is : there were going to be easter holidays anyway , were n't there ? what was going to happen about free-school-meal children during that period ? has that gone out of the window now , the normal holiday provision for children ? because that 's not there normally , is it , except in separate— kirsty williams am: we do find ourselves in a strange situation . my understanding is what we 're trying to work to is that we would have ongoing provision and not to make some strange , 'you get this for two weeks , then you do n't get it for two weeks , and then you 're back in . ' my understanding is , in england , that is what they 're going to do . we 're trying to create a system where it will be seamless and it will not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays . it wo n't matter to those nurses and doctors who will need to be in work during those weeks . we 're trying to create a system that will run uniformly . that 's our policy goal at the moment . lynne neagle am: helen mary . helen mary jones am: just briefly , building on suzy 's question , one particular group of children and young people that i hope will be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category is young carers . for some of them , they may not be able to come into school because the people they 're caring for may have to be excluded because of their conditions . but i think that , for other young carers , coming to school is an absolute lifeline , because they 're working at home . so , i do n't know if it 's appropriate for you to specifically mention those in discussions with local authorities , but it 's a group of young people who , again , may not be vulnerable in other ways , but because of their caring responsibilities they may need school . and the other group—and this , i suppose , goes back to suzy 's point about teachers knowing their young people—is the children who may be living in situations where they 're at risk of witnessing domestic abuse . again , these may very well not be children who are in any formal contact with social services , but being at home may be really not a good place for them to be . so , again , i 'd put in an appeal for that to be something that perhaps can be raised with schools . if a teacher is worried about what a child 's circumstances are like at home , whether they can be , as you said , kirsty , included as one of the— . they may not be formally identified , but if the teacher knows that they 're at risk , or there is an instinct that they 're at risk , they might be able to be included in children who are allowed to take advantage of this special provision you 're making at this difficult time . kirsty williams am: we will certainly raise those issues . we have to do that in the context of what is deliverable , and we also have to do that in the context of the public health advice that we are receiving as well . one of the reasons why schools are closing is to help manage this disease . we know that the ability for school closures to make a contribution to that diminishes if we have significant children in school still . so , we will take these issues into consideration , but remembering this is part of an epidemic mitigation plan . rob is the expert on that , not me . rob orford: yes , absolutely . this is a rapidly-evolving problem and the scale is something that we have n't seen in 100 years , and so we 're having to evolve and iterate things as we go . next week , i think , will look different to this week . so , it kind of is what it is . we 've all got a role to play , and schools certainly have a significant role to play in breaking those chains of transmission . areas that we 're worried about are displacement activities . if we close the schools , then people collect at others ' houses . we need to send a really clear message that you 're all part of the solution , and the things that you do by distancing yourselves from your friends and your family are really important for us to get on top of this outbreak . the more that we can do that , the easier it will be when we go forward . helen mary jones am: i 'm sure that that 's true , but i 'm sure that we would n't be wanting a child who 's in a very pressured environment with perhaps a very difficult relationship between mum and dad— . it may be very important for those children to be out of that for some of the time . hopefully , we 're talking about relatively small numbers , but i just— . kirsty williams am: we will look at vulnerability in a holistic way . lynne neagle am: janet , you had a supplementary . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair , and good morning , minister , and your team . can i just put on record my thanks for all that you 're having to endure at this moment ? i think it 's fair to say you have the support of assembly members and , indeed , our communities . now , the question i have : if cylch meithrin have to close , where will they get money from to pay their staff ? because , currently , thankfully , there 's support for businesses . lynne neagle am: janet , we 're not doing cylch meithrin at the moment ; we are sticking with schools , as we discussed in advance . dawn . dawn bowden am: can i just get some clarity , steve , around what you were saying in terms of next week ? because i think the practical applications of this—and i understand that you do n't know all of this yet , i understand that—the practical applications are what is coming to us , obviously , with constituents saying , 'well , what 's going to happen to that ? ' just so that i can be clear , are you saying that , at this stage , every headteacher will be in school on monday , as will all their staff ? steve davies: within the scope of the guidance in terms of their health , the expectation—and this will be conveyed in letters by the minister today , to be made clear—is that they are closing for the majority of pupils , but our expectation within the guidance is that the headteacher with their staff will be coming in ; for some to start the delivery of what we just described , but that will probably be small numbers , but more importantly to plan to ensure that , after the formal easter period , which is school holidays , the schools are geared to cater for the range of pupils that we 've been discussing . dawn bowden am: so , would you anticipate—again , i know this is all a bit 'if and when ' , and it depends on the changing nature of the advice , but from what you 're saying , i think we can probably anticipate that , as we go forward , there will probably be fewer schools opening and operable—that we may be moving those children on to fewer sites . would that possibly— ? kirsty williams am: that is a potential . so , we already know that one of our local authorities already has identified a strategic pattern of schools that they will want to operate in this way . that local authority has already chosen those locations , and is already having communications with how they will then staff those centres . so , that could well— . that , i expect , in the longer term , will be the nature of the provision that we will get to . but that 's not for us to dictate . the local authorities are best placed to understand what is the best , pragmatic use of the resources that they have available ; and of course those resources , primarily , are human beings . so , we 've talked a lot this morning in the context of teaching staff , teaching assistants , but we 're also having discussions with local authorities , and i met with the council for wales of voluntary youth services this week , to look at deploying youth workers , to look to be deploying other staff that the local authority may employ , like sports development officers . there may be cultural officers that can have something to offer . welsh government will be talking with a range of our partners who perhaps their normal activities ca n't continue at the moment , but actually have personnel who want to add to this effort , who want to be able to be part of a provision going forward in the longer term , to be able to provide a great place for children to be . we want to give parents , who we are asking— . let 's think about it , in these worst of times , we 're asking parents to leave their children so that they can go and do essential work , and some of that essential work is putting themselves at risk , potentially . and we want to give those parents confidence that , when they leave their child with us , that child will receive something really worthwhile , and they can direct all of their attention to doing their job . lynne neagle am: just before you— . janet , have you got a supplementary on schools now , not on early years settings ? janet finch-saunders am: i lost the signal before , so it 's a little bit confusing at this end , so bear with me . just in terms of the closure of schools , i have been asked by teachers what does new purpose—you may have covered it , but bear in mind [ inaudible . ] —mean in practice . and also , they 're already asking what will next— ? i know you said earlier that next week could look and probably will look significantly different than this week , but what can they expect to be happening next week in terms of this new purpose work ? lynne neagle am: we 've covered that , janet . kirsty williams am: first of all , janet , i just want to say thank you very much for your kind comments . that 's really , really kind of you . we will be sending a letter today to clarify those positions . so , each school will receive letters today about the expectations of schools next week . lynne neagle am: i think you 're having trouble hearing us , are n't you , so i think— ? janet finch-saunders am: no , i heard that loud and clear . lynne neagle am: but i think you missed the earlier comments , when we went into some detail on the new purpose of schools . so , i 'm sorry about that ; we are having some problems with the connection . janet finch-saunders am: yes , we could n't get a signal . lynne neagle am: dawn . dawn bowden am: just in relation to special schools and how they will fit into this new purpose arrangement . kirsty williams am: yes , they 're absolutely central to that planning . we know , again , that some of these children are our most vulnerable and they are some of our most pressurised families . therefore , the same situation that we 've just described for maintained schools also applies to special schools . we 'll be having discussions about what arrangements can be made for those children within their own usual settings . in some cases , that may not be possible . so , again , already local authorities are making different provision . can i give a shout out to the work of rhondda cynon taf in this regard , who are already doing some excellent work with regard to how they can keep in touch with their children who usually would attend their special schools . but , again , steve can give more detail . steve davies: i think special schools have already been hit by this challenge , because a significant proportion of their children , because of their conditions , have not been coming to school , they 've been isolated . but the principle we 've used there is , actually , even if it 's a minority of children who go to those schools and are vulnerable , they deserve and need that support through the school . so , we would expect that to function with the focus on vulnerable children . but similarly , even in special schools , there will be children whose parents will be key workers , so we would expect them to apply that same principle . just quickly in response to the earlier question , while we may bring some groups of children into separate schools , we ’ ll have to continue with the principle of keeping social distance and any provision for a child in a special school in a different setting would be unlikely , given the nature of the special school , so we would look to cater for that within the original school . dawn bowden am: just a couple more questions from me . it ’ s likely , because i know it has already happened , that some schools might actually close before monday . some schools have already partially closed . are you quite happy that headteachers still have the discretion to do that , if they feel that ’ s the right thing to do ? kirsty williams am: in this situation , the discretion of the head still remains . as i said , we will be communicating with all schools today about our expectations , if at all possible , to have schools open for staff to do some of this planning and to be able to respond to these priority needs that we 've just talked about . steve davies: the rationale of headteachers for closing schools up to now has been that they ca n't cope with the safety of the children . i think , moving forward , it 's unlikely that that would be a rationale that headteachers would want to use for not engaging and planning for the future . dawn bowden am: we 're only talking about one more day , now , anyway , are n't we ? so , just in terms of confirmed cases in schools , is your view at this stage that , if there is a confirmed case in a school , once that school has been deep-cleaned , it can reopen again ? kirsty williams am: if we had a confirmed case in a school , then all the usual mechanisms arranged by public health wales would kick in at that point . dawn bowden am: okay . and my final question is in relation to the position of early years and childcare settings . i know that kind of crosses over into somebody else 's portfolio as well , but i think we know that . certainly what i 've seen , and i 'm sure this is true elsewhere as well , we 've seen nurseries closing down because the parents are actually taking the children out of those nurseries . i 've got one in particular , there are kids from the ages of 6 to 12 years in there , and the parents are taking them out . they 've got 30 staff there , catering for 200 children and no children to care for and the organisation , at this stage , is unable to claim on their insurance for the ongoing payment of those staff wages . is there any advice that we can give to people in that situation at this stage ? kirsty williams am: sure . as you say , many of these settings are businesses—people 's businesses and they play a hugely important role and it 's a very worrying time for them . we have said that we will continue to pay for childcare , delivered under the childcare offer even when a child is unable , or a parent is unwilling , to take up that place . so , if that setting is receiving a childcare payment from the welsh government as part of our childcare offer , that will be paid , regardless of whether that child attends or not . and i know that we 're also working with local authorities to ensure a similar position on flying start childcare and early education . so , that payment will be made , regardless of whether a child is attending . it 's also important that childcare settings will be able to apply for the various packages of support that are being made available by my colleague , ken skates . lynne neagle am: hefin , then janet . hefin david am: yes , i 'd just like to turn that around from the parents ' point of view . with schools closing , there are a lot of parents then losing 10 hours of free childcare , but from a settings point of view , they 'll continue to be able to receive , for the time being , the nursery care . kirsty williams am: yes , so the decision that has been taken by my colleague , julie morgan , is that settings should stay open at the moment unless public health changes . that 's being kept under constant review on public health . again , the issue is that we know that that childcare is vital to many families , especially—and we 're particularly concerned about those individuals who are trying to help us overcome and solve these problems . if you have any specific questions about that , we 'll be happy to take them back to julie morgan . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: is this the cylch question ? lynne neagle am: yes , please . janet finch-saunders am: sorry , thank you . yes , just basically , cylch meithrin , there are concerns— [ interruption . ] lynne neagle am: we 've lost janet . we 'll come back to her . kirsty williams am: i think if the issue is about funding for cylch meithrin , these are not normal circumstances . as a welsh government , we will take every step to provide continuity of funding , if at all possible . we will overcome this , and when we overcome this situation we find ourselves in , we will need those childcare settings , we will need those private businesses and we will need our cylch meithrin to be there to respond and to be able to go on doing the job that they usually do for us . and if there is any way that we can , as a government , ensure that that happens by carrying on funding things , even if they are not able to run , all usual— [ inaudible . ] — around service-level agreements are off . i 'm not setting the precedent—let me make that absolutely clear . [ laughter . ] but , you know , we will not undermine businesses and voluntary provision like cylch by withdrawing welsh government funding . i hope i 've been clear . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you for that . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , kirsty . lynne neagle am: if we can move on to talk about exams , obviously you made the announcement yesterday . i completely understand that everything is a very fast-moving situation , but , as you know , there are a lot of questions that people have about young people who 've put a lot of work in . are you able to tell us any more today ? in particular , have you got any idea about timescales now for setting out what the approach will be to handling the lack of summer exams ? kirsty williams am: yes , it is a devastating decision to have to have been taken , but i have done so on the very , very clear and unambiguous advice from qualifications wales . i met with qualifications wales and the wjec yesterday . what was most important to them was that i made an early decision and i did not equivocate on what would happen for the exams . i was able to make an informal decision at that meeting , and then , of course , there is a formal process that we have to go through . that , now , allows qualifications wales and the exam board to operationalise that decision , and they will be communicating with schools as quickly as possible about what schools will need to do to ensure that the systems that they will now put in place can work . we are trying , as far as we can , as i understand it , to be able to mirror as closely as possible the usual results day , for instance . it might not be possible , because , of course , we 're dealing with a situation that requires human beings to be involved in it , and those human beings could find themselves unwell . so , our best attempts will be to maintain the normal rhythm of an exams day in august , but that has to be caveated by the fact that we 're dealing with difficult circumstances . but , the wjec and qualifications wales will be making urgent communications to exam centres to explain what will need to happen next . lynne neagle am: okay . janet , you had a question on this . janet finch-saunders am: yes , i think i raised it yesterday , kirsty , but you were receiving loads of questions . i 'd just ask for some further clarification about coursework , because only 30 per cent of that is done . years 11 and 13 , typically , in my case they 're what 's been raised with me—do you have any advice for them ? kirsty williams am: okay , so , all exams are cancelled , but year 11 and year 13 will be given a grade—i think that 's a distinction that people need to be aware of . that is because those years and those grades are gateway qualifications , and they are points of movement in the education system . so , it 's really important for those students that they are not disadvantaged in any way by not being able to receive a grade that helps them to make a decision as a qualifying step into what they will do next , whether that be university , whether that be a degree apprenticeship or whether that be going into sixth form , into a college , into an apprenticeship or into some work-based learning opportunities . that 's why we have to focus on those children , because for them , it is absolutely critical that we do . we are at an advantage in wales , can i say ? because of the nature of our examination system , those students already have a lot of externally assessed work that we can use as a basis to move forward on . because we 've kept our as-levels , we have got that data . because we have a gcse system— . our year 11s , if they 're doing triple science , they 've already done 40 per cent of their paper , so we 're very fortunate . because of the structures that we have got in our qualification system , there is already lots and lots of externally-verified work that we can use , alongside , potentially , teacher evaluation of students as well . and i think that 's really important . we ’ re starting from a better base than simply having none of that externally-verified data . what will also be important is that these children have confidence in those qualifications , and so we will be looking at a modulated arrangement within wales , and i know that qualifications wales are discussing with their counterparts across the uk a modulated system across the uk . so , actually , we can make sure that our standards are maintained by actually having that modulation across the uk . so , we know that those children never have to worry about the rigour that has gone into determining that grade . so , they can have real confidence . lynne neagle am: okay . helen mary . helen mary jones am: thank you . a supplementary question that might feed into that moderation . you 'll know that the national union of students has suggested that black and minority ethnic children and children from the working class , on the whole , do n't do as well , in terms of their assessment by their own teachers . i do n't know what their evidence is for that . we also know , of course , that boys tend to do better in exams , and girls tend to do better at coursework , for whatever reason that is . so , just to ask you at this early stage to build in those considerations around potential unconscious bias into that overall system that you 're talking about . and , of course , you are right to say that , because we have got some elements of external moderation here , those factors may be less for us in wales than they might for colleagues in england . kirsty williams am: yes , i think we are starting at a different base , thank goodness . so , you 're quite right . as i said , students will have done unit 1 papers last year if they 're gcse students . dare i say it , some might even have done early entry . so , we still have elements of coursework that are externally verified . so , children might well have done lots of oral exams in their english and in their welsh language . so , we have lots of pieces of work that will have been externally verified . i certainly will ensure that these concerns are passed on . i 'm sure that qualifications wales are thinking about it . i have every confidence that they and the wjec will come up with a very comprehensive way of establishing those grades , but i have to say , in some ways , i have to step back now , because you would not expect me , in normal circumstances , to dictate to the wjec how much percentage goes for that , and how much percentage is allocated for that ; that would not be appropriate for a minister . my job is to make the decision on the examinations on the basis of having confidence that what can be put in place is fair and is equitable , and i have confidence that that will be the case . helen mary jones am: thank you . lynne neagle am: suzy . suzy davies am: a few things from me . one is , obviously , pupils are being asked to work at home as well now , some of whom will be doing gcse and a-level courses . so , there 's just a question , generally , from me— because we 're encouraging these kids to carry on working—how that will be accommodated by qualifications wales , i guess , in this modulation process . it may be that your at-home work will be of a higher standard or a lower standard than a teacher would be expecting . secondly , you mentioned the as-levels , of course , as being of value at the moment , but we 've got people in year 12 who now wo n't be doing their ass . is there any steer at this stage about what they will be expected to do ? will they be doing two sets of exams next year , for example ? or is as just off the table ? in which case , how are the a2s going to be calculated in due course ? and then , finally from me , we do have some vocational qualifications that are up for examination as well—your btecs , and i think it 's the association of accounting technicians , which is a lot of computer-based learning—which is due to be examined within three weeks . those aren ’ t a-levels or gcses . i appreciate that you may not have the answer just at the moment , but are they off as well is the question , i guess ? kirsty williams am: with regard to as-levels—no final decision has been made for exactly how those students will be treated . there are a range of options that could be used , but again , we will want to be thinking about student well-being , fairness and equity in that regard , and i will update members as soon as i have received definitive advice from qualifications wales around that , and that has n't happened yet . with regard to other types of qualifications , as you will be aware , the vast majority of btecs is a modular , continually-assessed piece of work , and we would have every expectation that btecs will be able to be awarded , but clearly , those conversations are with awarding bodies—they tend to be uk awarding bodies , rather then necessarily our wjec exam board—and those conversations are ongoing . but i have every expectation that those qualifications will be awarded and , of course , because of their nature there 's even more evidence of continued assessment . huw , i do n't know if there 's anything else that you would like to add about those types of qualifications . huw morris: no . i think you 've covered most of it . i do n't have a definitive answer for the att qualification , but we can look into that and come back to you . suzy davies am: well , i 've just had a constituent ask , so that would be very helpful . and homeworking— kirsty williams am: homeworking , right . suzy davies am: —is that going to count towards the assessments , overall assessments ? kirsty williams am: well , potentially , as i said . i do n't know the exact elements . what will be absolutely necessary is that qualifications wales and the wjec will be able to give absolute clarity and simplicity around how those grades will be arrived at , because parents , teachers and students will want to know that , and my expectation is on them to be able to clearly communicate what elements will and will not be taken into consideration when awarding those grades . suzy davies am: that 's great . at least we covered it . thank you , minister—thank you , kirsty . lynne neagle am: and , just before we move on , have the universities across the uk indicated that they are content with this approach going forward—content to accept students on this basis ? kirsty williams am: certainly . there have been discussions with universities and ucas , of course , that this also has a bearing on . one of the— . and the views of university and how university terms might be impacted is one of the ways and one of the reasons that we 've factored in to making these decisions . those discussions with universities are ongoing , are n't they , huw ? huw morris: yes . so , we 've been in regular conversation with universities wales and through them with universities uk and we 've received every indication that the approach that 's been adopted here has been welcomed by the institutions . those conversations will continue as we work through the practicalities of how the gradings that are awarded are going to feed through into university admissions decisions and enrolment . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . well , we 've got some questions now from suzy on the potential closures of colleges and universities . suzy davies am: okay . well , it 's a very general question , really . i appreciate you 've already indicated there are lots of ongoing conversations , but my understanding is whether colleges or universities close is pretty much still at their own discretion . we 're going to be asking some questions on emergency legislation shortly , which may impact on the answer you can give today , but what sort of conversations are you having with fe and he at the moment about how they decide ? kirsty williams am: well , you 're absolutely right . as we often say in this committee , universities are autonomous institutions—a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question . universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them . colleges are in a similar position , looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods , and the bill , potentially , does give us more powers of intervention in both the fe and the he sector . suzy davies am: i might ask you about that in a minute , because i do n't even know what the bill says yet . kirsty williams am: huw , i do n't know if there 's anything you want to add . huw morris: no—just to confirm what 's been said and also to add in that independent training providers , similarly autonomous , like colleges and universities , have been moving in the same direction . we 've been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that 's been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies . we 've got consistency in the approach and a common desire , and investment in moving towards online support for students . suzy davies am: and there 's still this safety net idea . certainly , colleges have indicated , as with schools , that , for the most vulnerable learners , they 'll have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis . huw morris: that 's my understanding , yes , and , again , we 've been in regular conversation with them about that . my understanding is that they 're going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions . suzy davies am: that 's fair enough . and , presumably , education maintenance allowance will still be paid . kirsty williams am: yes . arrangements have been made to ensure that ema continues to be paid to all students who are entitled . suzy davies am: that 's right . you indicated that any welsh government support 's going to stay , whatever the circumstances are—in your portfolio . kirsty williams am: yes . i 'm doing my best , but it 's an absolute yes on the ema . there will be no disruption to ema . suzy davies am: okay . you might get some further questions on he and fe . lynne neagle am: yes . we 've got some further questions , indeed , from helen mary and then hefin . helen mary jones am: now or in a bit ? lynne neagle am: yes . helen mary jones am: just further to ema , of course , at the moment , that has an attendance qualification , does n't it ? and you do n't get your ema if you do n't turn up . should we take from your last answer that that attendance qualification does n't apply anymore ? kirsty williams am: yes . they ca n't turn up if the institution is not open , and that 's not their fault . helen mary jones am: no , but that is something that 's been a worry , so that 's really encouraging to hear . thinking about students in higher education , can you give an assurance that student maintenance payments will continue as normal ? is that the intention ? kirsty williams am: yes . helen mary jones am: that 's really good to hear . and have you given any special ministerial instruction to student finance wales on processing applications for support or changes of circumstances , or is that something that 's kind of ongoing at the moment ? kirsty williams am: those conversations are ongoing with the student loans company . as i said , we anticipate no disruption to— . we do n't anticipate any change in the approach to students as a result of this . individual student circumstances could well change and our expectation would be that the student loans company would respond to that . all i would say is , just to remind people : people who work for the student loans company are no more able to resist this disease than anybody else . there will undoubtedly in some cases be really practical challenges to service delivery , simply because organisations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they are reacting to social-distancing messages from the government . so , i think we just need to bear that in mind : that these organisations are doing their best , but , if they are badly affected by staff numbers being off because of the virus , then i hope people will give them due consideration . helen mary jones am: yes , that makes sense , of course , because we 've been told that universities wo n't be able to entirely close , because there will be students who ca n't go home— kirsty williams am: it is their home . helen mary jones am: —overseas students , for example . what discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students ' basic needs are met , that there 's still food , shelter , whatever they need ? kirsty williams am: well , obviously , universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances , and every conversation that huw 's been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that . huw morris: we instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease , not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in china and other parts of south-east asia . and so , as the disease has progressed , we 've seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the uk , and i am assured that the universities here in wales have got processes in place that support those learners . helen mary jones am: that 's really helpful . and on this specifically—last question from me— have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees , should the academic year not be completed ? huw morris: so , as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online , clearly , there are lessons that will need to be taken on board . there are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs . the intention in all of these institutions is that they will complete their course of study . there are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed . failing those institutional mechanisms , there is a uk-wide system through the office of the independent adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have . so , we 're confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs . lynne neagle am: okay . suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: no , mr morris has answered my question . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've got a couple more questions now on vulnerable learners . i 've got helen mary , then hefin . helen mary jones am: i think , chair , the minister has already answered what the— . but thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and well-being of staff and learners across a range of educational settings , or , indeed , young people who ca n't access educational settings , what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and well-being might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone ? kirsty williams am: yes , that is correct . so , our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure—which i think , if we 're honest , we have to acknowledge is what we 're looking at—we would expect school staff—well-being staff , for instance in school—to be doing check-ins—phone check-ins , potentially , or facetime check-ins , with students , just to keep in touch with them as we go forward . we 'll be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available—so , for instance , meic website—so , looking to use a variety of platforms . we do , of course , have the formal nhs counselling services . i 'm concerned , of course , that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school . we know that , and we 're just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists—online counselling tools that children already use because they do n't want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor . they 're already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue , as far as possible , those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered , and their worries . i think we have to remember that this is a really worrying time for children and young people . one of the reasons , again , that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible—and teachers have been working so hard to do that—is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we 've needed and wanted to maintain . children will have worries about their own health ; they 'll have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents ; they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves . so , we need to understand , and i think we will also have to recognise , that this support will have to be ongoing once we 're back to normal , and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience . they are incredibly resilient , and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages . they are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole 'washing your hands ' and things like that than even adults have been . so , they are incredibly resilient , but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them . helen mary jones am: can i just— ? just a supplementary to that—you 've mentioned already , kirsty , the importance of youth services , and , particularly thinking voluntarily youth services , you 've given the commitment , when were talking about mudiad ysgolion meithrin earlier , that services that are part-funded by grants through the welsh government , for example , thinking of the national youth voluntary service—will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well ? obviously , local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open , but , in terms of the direct support from welsh government , can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time ? kirsty williams am: no formal decision has been made , but if people are in receipt of a government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public— helen mary jones am: because it 's not safe . kirsty williams am: —because it 's not safe to do so , i do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying , 'we 'll have our money back , thank you very much . ' lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . helen mary jones am: that will make a lot of people happy , thank you . [ laughter . ] kirsty williams am: as i said , we are facing unprecedented circumstances . the normal rules of engagement have to change and , those organisations , we 'll need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal , and we would n't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that . our call to the youth service is a call to arms , though . when we 're trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for front-line staff children , they have a valuable role to play and i know that local government and the council for wales of voluntary youth services are already in discussion about how youth services— . many of our youth services work on an outreach basis . those traditional youth clubs , because of austerity , are not necessarily there anymore , so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work , and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier . helen mary jones am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin , briefly , and then we 're going to take one final question from suzy on emergency legislation . hefin david am: all right . i 'll declare an interest as a parent of a child with additional learning needs , although the question i 'm about to ask does n't reflect her interests . additional learning needs pupils who are waiting outcomes of referrals—if they 're currently waiting an outcome of a referral , will that process will be suspended or will it continue as normal ? and , if it is suspended , will it pick up where it left off from this point ? kirsty williams am: i think we have to recognise that the ability to deliver business as usual has been massively compromised . i 'm sure people will try and continue to do their normal activities and their normal jobs , but that might not be possible . i will have to check that , hefin , to be honest . i do n't want to give you any false assurance if , actually , the intelligence on the ground is that that simply will not be able to happen . but we don't— hefin david am: can we have a clear line on that ? kirsty williams am: we do n't want to jeopardise anybody , but as i said , some of the normal services are simply not available as everybody turns their attention to trying to respond to the pandemic . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . final question—because i know that the minister 's got a lot of things that she needs to get on with—from suzy on emergency legislation . suzy davies am: i 'm not going to ask you if you 'll use any powers you get under the emergency legislation , but are you able to give us some indication of what they might be ? kirsty williams am: sure . for instance , the bill will provide welsh ministers with powers to temporarily close schools or other educational institutions , childcare premises ; powers to give temporary continuity direction—so , actually , the other way around , force things to be open—and to be able to direct resources . so , that includes , as i said , i could direct something to stay open if that institution was trying to close down . the powers also give flexibility to maybe be able to direct staff to other institutions that they would not normally work in , if that was part of our resilience needs . we 'd also be looking at , for instance , relaxing requirements around ratios in childcare settings , or we might be wanting to do things around food . so , obviously , we have rules around the level of nutrition that schools should be giving their children . if there is a continuing role for schools in providing food , we might have to be a bit more flexible about what that might look like . so , those kinds of flexibilities—to be able to suspend things , direct things—that we would not normally have in normal circumstances . suzy davies am: okay . and just to finish this one off—you may not be able to answer this one , in all fairness—in those situations where it 's the government who says 'no ' to various things , does that then help people in the situation of dawn 's nursery , and insurance claims suddenly become more likely ? kirsty williams am: i 'm not an expert on insurance , and i do n't know if anybody here can help me . but what my understanding is , is that even where government has given a direction that does not necessarily mean that you will be covered by your insurance . what we 're finding in the private sector is that insurance companies are not paying out , because even when a government has directed it , they do not regard this as a disruption to business . so , the insurance industry is not my area of expertise . suzy davies am: no , no , i accept that . kirsty williams am: it 's not my area of expertise , but from what i understand from discussions around the cabinet table , this is particularly problematic . let me give you an example about how we 've been trying to overcome some of this—it feels like an awfully long time ago now— you 'll be aware that we gave directions earlier around cancellation of school trips abroad . trying to make sure that that direction came from the foreign and commonwealth office , rather than the department for education was a real battle , because again there were fears that , unless that advice came from the foreign and commonwealth office , insurance would not kick in , and that was a two-day discussion . suzy davies am: okay . this is helpful to know , actually . kirsty williams am: so , these are the kinds of things that we 're grappling with . but , as i said , thinking about it , that was only last week , but it feels like an aeon ago . suzy davies am: i 'm not holding you to that , but it helps us manage the questions we get asked . kirsty williams am: yes , but as i said , insurance is not my area of expertise . suzy davies am: no , but thank you for answering . lynne neagle am: okay . well , we 've come to the end of our time . can i thank you for attending this morning , and your officials ? we do recognise what an incredibly challenging time this is , and we 'd like to place on record our thanks to all of you for the work that you 're doing to try and see us through this crisis . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . thank you again , all of you , for your attendance . item 3 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

because that routine of going into school and that normality was one that they had needed and wanted to maintain . they needed to understand , and kirsty thought that they would also have to recognize , that this support would have to be ongoing once they were back to normal , and they would have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who would have lived through this experience . they were incredibly resilient , and they had been the champions of some of our public health messages . they were so much better and so much more compliant on the whole 'washing your hands ' and things like that than even adults have been .

with regard to the national youth voluntary service , would the support and funds be able to be maintained even if settings had to be shut as well ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . i 've received apologies for absence from siân gwenllian , and i 'm very pleased to welcome helen mary jones , who is substituting for siân today . can i ask whether members want to declare any interests , please ? can i just , then , place on record that i have got a son who was about to do a-levels , so is affected by the exam decision ? we 'll move on , then , to our substantive item today , which is an evidence session with the welsh government around the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on education in wales . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams , minister for education ; steve davies , who is director of the education directorate ; huw morris , who is the group director , skills , higher education and lifelong learning ; and rob orford , who is the chief scientific adviser for health . thank you all for coming . we know that this is a really difficult and pressurised time for everyone , and we appreciate your attendance . minister , i understand you wanted to make an opening statement today . kirsty williams am: yes , if that 's okay , chair . as you know , it 's not usually my practice to do that , but i think it is important today . covid-19 coronavirus is one of the most significant issues that the welsh government and the people of wales have dealt with in recent times . dealing with the impacts of this pandemic is extremely challenging . things are changing on an hourly basis , and we have to make decisions quickly to ensure public safety . but i would like to assure you that our aim , and my aim , and my main concern as the education minister is to protect all staff and pupils in our schools and other educational settings . but we also have a duty to ensure continuing and continuity of education . public health is clearly the priority here , but that does not change our belief that no child should miss out on any education , unless absolutely necessary . so , the decision to close all schools from tomorrow for statutory education provision was not taken lightly , but i believe it was necessary , given the advice and recommendations that we had received from a public health perspective and the situation that was developing on the ground . from next week , schools will have a new purpose . they will help support those most in need , including people involved in the immediate response to the coronavirus outbreak , and i 'm working with my colleagues in the cabinet , with government officials and our partners in local government to develop and finalise these plans . the key areas that we 're looking at are supporting and safeguarding the vulnerable and ensuring continuity of learning . this includes all of those who benefit from free school meals and children with additional learning needs . i can confirm that all maintained schools in wales already have access to a range of digital tools that can support distance learning through the world-class hwb digital learning platform , including virtual classrooms and video-conferencing facilities . a guide on what tools are available and how schools can use them has been developed and is being promoted widely . yesterday , i announced that , whilst there are no easy choices , we have agreed that the best way forward is not to proceed with the summer exam series . learners due to sit these exams will be awarded a fair grade to recognise their work , drawing on a range of information that is available , and i will announce further details shortly , but i felt it necessary to give early certainty to students and to staff . i would like to put on record my thanks to everyone working in education settings for the hard work that they have put in over the last few months in dealing with the virus and ensuring that pupils have been able to continue to learn . we need to continue to do this work together , as we face the continuing challenges posed by the coronavirus . diolch yn fawr . lynne neagle am: thank you very much , minister , for that statement . we 'll go to questions from members now , and i 've got some questions from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . can i thank you , kirsty , for your statement and the really difficult decisions that you 've been having to make ? you 've already indicated in your statement this morning that these decisions are not taken lightly , and we understand that that is the case across government . so , thank you for what you 've been doing . you 've outlined a little bit further there in your statement to us this morning about the new purpose . i take from what you 're saying that you have n't really developed that yet in terms of exactly what that is going to look like . you 've talked about the children of key workers , free school meals , additional learning needs . is there anything else you can tell us about that at the moment and how you might staff the schools in those particular areas ? kirsty williams am: thank you , dawn . so , you're absolutely right , our priority now is to operationalise , with colleagues in local government and schools , a practical response . and i have to say , we 're working to timescales that i would have hoped to have avoided , but given the fact that we 're having to make these decisions quite quickly , i hope that you will understand that perhaps where we start on monday might change when we have more time and more opportunities to develop programmes going forward . steve will be able to give you more details of the practical work that has already been going on , but our expectation will be that schools will be playing an important part in providing safe and secure places for children of those on the front-line response to dealing with the coronavirus to attend , and work is already under way with local authorities and individual schools on what that will look like for the emergency situation on monday . our other priority is indeed free school meals , and , again , where we eventually end up might be a different place to where we are on monday . again , we 're responding to the emergency situation that there will be families that were expecting a free school meal on monday , and , again , individual schools and local authorities are developing those plans at pace to be able to provide an emergency response as we work out a longer term plan to deal with the situation . the same thing also goes for additional learning needs , and attending to the needs of that particular group of learners . so , those conversations began a few days ago . i had the opportunity to meet with the first minister and andrew morgan , the leader of the welsh local government association , yesterday to talk about what local government could do , and what they were already doing . those plans in some places are already quite developed , and are now working at pace , but i hope you will understand that where we start on monday is the emergency response , and that work will develop as we go forward . but , steve , perhaps you could— ? because steve was the one making all those phone calls and doing the practical operational stuff , rather than me . steve . steve davies: in short , the new purpose is to meet the needs of particular groups of children and young people . in some cases , some of the response to supporting free school meals , in the short term in particular , we may use the schools as part of that , and i 'm certain that will happen in some cases . the second area is looking at how we support the children of key workers . now , there is still work to be done on identifying exactly the categories of key workers , but i think it 's really encouraging that in my discussions yesterday—i spoke with all 22 directors of education , and the examples we 're picking up in their work with schools is they 're already ahead of the curve in working with schools . so , schools have identified the number of children with health workers . it will grow , and we will need to look at that range . then , the third area is vulnerable children . they 're vulnerable sometimes in terms of education other than at school , vulnerable in terms of mental health , and for those children , as well as having an experience that we want to be planned , some have compared it to a snow day , particularly on monday , when you 're putting something together in the short term , but it will not be a formal curriculum that those children would normally go through . so , the range of activities—some will be focused on educational activities , some will be cultural , some will be sporting , and that plan will be developed on the basis of the age range of children , which in some cases may go from extremely young children up to those at the age of 16 in our all-through schools , but there will be a planned set of activities to cater for those children . what we are doing currently—i have staff back at cathays park who are in touch and working with directors of education to ensure that schools over the next two days will have been able to identify , at least at the earlier stage , in terms of health workers , the type and numbers of people . there are already schools who have informed us , and local authorities , of their plans for these activities to be starting next week , which is quite amazing , actually , given where we are . but we are expecting , and we 're writing to schools today , that during the course of next week , headteachers to be in schools , and with their staff , taking into consideration the health guidance as to which staff should or should not be in , and in that period from next monday through the two-week period , to easter , we expect staff to be both planning for delivery post easter , but also , as i said , building on and reflecting the good practice that 's already in place for schools that have engaged in activities , and i 'm sure a number of them will be inviting and enabling those children to come in on monday . so , monday will be a challenge for some , and not all will be delivering it , but we will be working so that we can get as much as possible delivered for those groups over the next two weeks , and particularly to have resilient programmes post easter for the groups of children in those three categories that i said . dawn bowden am: those that have been identified . can i just clarify one thing ? one of the identified vulnerable groups would clearly be children on the at-risk register . they would be included . steve davies: yes , definitely . vulnerable children , yes . kirsty williams am: in our discussions , we have asked local government to be working with the social services departments and individual schools to identify those children who may be in that situation . we know that , for some children , being at school is part of their safeguarding arrangements , and obviously we will need to be able to respond to those needs . steve davies: i wrote specifically yesterday to all directors of education to be assured that , for those children , the register is up to date and the plans are in place . i 'm working with albert heaney my colleague , the director for social services , who is meeting with the 22 directors of social services today to look to ensure that we are joined up in ensuring none of these children fall through the gap . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got a supplementary from hefin , and then suzy . hefin david am: a very quick and simple question : how are you going to communicate this to parents ? there 's a bigger picture and it 's changing all the time , as you said . the welsh government have a route to communication . the most helpful thing i 've seen is that public health wales have a single website with information regarding the wider issue of the virus . how will this then be cascaded to schools , because there 's obviously a time lag ? so , have you considered how this is going to be communicated directly to parents ? kirsty williams am: we 're using all of our platforms of communication to get these messages across . so , we 're using the more informal methods of communication , but are relying on a systematic approach via individual directors and through to individual schools . welsh government already has a dedicated website page with all of the relevant information about coronavirus . we 're looking , as quickly as we can , to have a frequently asked education questions page that we can update . understandably , people are communicating to us on twitter asking questions . it is impossible for the communications team here to be able to respond individually to every single person that is sending facebook messages and sending tweets , so the best way we can do that is to collate the types of questions people are asking and then to be able to have a frequently updated question and answer page to try to respond to that . with regard to parents , for instance , we 're aware of schools that have already sent a questionnaire out last night to parents saying , 'do you consider yourself to be a key worker ? do you work in the nhs ? please let us know by tomorrow so we can put arrangements in place for your children . ' so , schools are already taking the initiative and having those conversations with parents about what their needs will be . and , as i said , hefin , will it be perfect on monday ? no . it wo n't be perfect by monday , because we 're working to such constrained timescales . but we will continue to build that resilience . we also have to think about systems that look at what might the epidemic do and have systems of resilience that may work next week , given the situation we find ourselves in with public health advice at the moment . but that public health advice may change . therefore , have we got a system that will be resilient in those circumstances ? these are some of the challenges that we 're having to grapple with . so , as i said , what happens on monday might look very different to where we are if schools are still off in may . so , i hope people will understand that we are working in those kinds of scenarios . lynne neagle am: suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: yes , just on this question of vulnerable children , i 'm just wondering how much discretion teachers are going to have in including individual children who may not be obviously under social services ' care or on a risk register or whatever . teachers know their pupils and , very sensitively , they could include people who may not be obviously in need . kirsty williams am: we would absolutely respect the professional judgment of individual headteachers to be able to have those conversations with their directors . as you said , quite rightly , they are the individuals who know their children best and know which children , perhaps , will need this extra support . we will put no constraints on those teachers trying to do that work . suzy davies am: okay . the second part of my question is : there were going to be easter holidays anyway , were n't there ? what was going to happen about free-school-meal children during that period ? has that gone out of the window now , the normal holiday provision for children ? because that 's not there normally , is it , except in separate— kirsty williams am: we do find ourselves in a strange situation . my understanding is what we 're trying to work to is that we would have ongoing provision and not to make some strange , 'you get this for two weeks , then you do n't get it for two weeks , and then you 're back in . ' my understanding is , in england , that is what they 're going to do . we 're trying to create a system where it will be seamless and it will not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays . it wo n't matter to those nurses and doctors who will need to be in work during those weeks . we 're trying to create a system that will run uniformly . that 's our policy goal at the moment . lynne neagle am: helen mary . helen mary jones am: just briefly , building on suzy 's question , one particular group of children and young people that i hope will be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category is young carers . for some of them , they may not be able to come into school because the people they 're caring for may have to be excluded because of their conditions . but i think that , for other young carers , coming to school is an absolute lifeline , because they 're working at home . so , i do n't know if it 's appropriate for you to specifically mention those in discussions with local authorities , but it 's a group of young people who , again , may not be vulnerable in other ways , but because of their caring responsibilities they may need school . and the other group—and this , i suppose , goes back to suzy 's point about teachers knowing their young people—is the children who may be living in situations where they 're at risk of witnessing domestic abuse . again , these may very well not be children who are in any formal contact with social services , but being at home may be really not a good place for them to be . so , again , i 'd put in an appeal for that to be something that perhaps can be raised with schools . if a teacher is worried about what a child 's circumstances are like at home , whether they can be , as you said , kirsty , included as one of the— . they may not be formally identified , but if the teacher knows that they 're at risk , or there is an instinct that they 're at risk , they might be able to be included in children who are allowed to take advantage of this special provision you 're making at this difficult time . kirsty williams am: we will certainly raise those issues . we have to do that in the context of what is deliverable , and we also have to do that in the context of the public health advice that we are receiving as well . one of the reasons why schools are closing is to help manage this disease . we know that the ability for school closures to make a contribution to that diminishes if we have significant children in school still . so , we will take these issues into consideration , but remembering this is part of an epidemic mitigation plan . rob is the expert on that , not me . rob orford: yes , absolutely . this is a rapidly-evolving problem and the scale is something that we have n't seen in 100 years , and so we 're having to evolve and iterate things as we go . next week , i think , will look different to this week . so , it kind of is what it is . we 've all got a role to play , and schools certainly have a significant role to play in breaking those chains of transmission . areas that we 're worried about are displacement activities . if we close the schools , then people collect at others ' houses . we need to send a really clear message that you 're all part of the solution , and the things that you do by distancing yourselves from your friends and your family are really important for us to get on top of this outbreak . the more that we can do that , the easier it will be when we go forward . helen mary jones am: i 'm sure that that 's true , but i 'm sure that we would n't be wanting a child who 's in a very pressured environment with perhaps a very difficult relationship between mum and dad— . it may be very important for those children to be out of that for some of the time . hopefully , we 're talking about relatively small numbers , but i just— . kirsty williams am: we will look at vulnerability in a holistic way . lynne neagle am: janet , you had a supplementary . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair , and good morning , minister , and your team . can i just put on record my thanks for all that you 're having to endure at this moment ? i think it 's fair to say you have the support of assembly members and , indeed , our communities . now , the question i have : if cylch meithrin have to close , where will they get money from to pay their staff ? because , currently , thankfully , there 's support for businesses . lynne neagle am: janet , we 're not doing cylch meithrin at the moment ; we are sticking with schools , as we discussed in advance . dawn . dawn bowden am: can i just get some clarity , steve , around what you were saying in terms of next week ? because i think the practical applications of this—and i understand that you do n't know all of this yet , i understand that—the practical applications are what is coming to us , obviously , with constituents saying , 'well , what 's going to happen to that ? ' just so that i can be clear , are you saying that , at this stage , every headteacher will be in school on monday , as will all their staff ? steve davies: within the scope of the guidance in terms of their health , the expectation—and this will be conveyed in letters by the minister today , to be made clear—is that they are closing for the majority of pupils , but our expectation within the guidance is that the headteacher with their staff will be coming in ; for some to start the delivery of what we just described , but that will probably be small numbers , but more importantly to plan to ensure that , after the formal easter period , which is school holidays , the schools are geared to cater for the range of pupils that we 've been discussing . dawn bowden am: so , would you anticipate—again , i know this is all a bit 'if and when ' , and it depends on the changing nature of the advice , but from what you 're saying , i think we can probably anticipate that , as we go forward , there will probably be fewer schools opening and operable—that we may be moving those children on to fewer sites . would that possibly— ? kirsty williams am: that is a potential . so , we already know that one of our local authorities already has identified a strategic pattern of schools that they will want to operate in this way . that local authority has already chosen those locations , and is already having communications with how they will then staff those centres . so , that could well— . that , i expect , in the longer term , will be the nature of the provision that we will get to . but that 's not for us to dictate . the local authorities are best placed to understand what is the best , pragmatic use of the resources that they have available ; and of course those resources , primarily , are human beings . so , we 've talked a lot this morning in the context of teaching staff , teaching assistants , but we 're also having discussions with local authorities , and i met with the council for wales of voluntary youth services this week , to look at deploying youth workers , to look to be deploying other staff that the local authority may employ , like sports development officers . there may be cultural officers that can have something to offer . welsh government will be talking with a range of our partners who perhaps their normal activities ca n't continue at the moment , but actually have personnel who want to add to this effort , who want to be able to be part of a provision going forward in the longer term , to be able to provide a great place for children to be . we want to give parents , who we are asking— . let 's think about it , in these worst of times , we 're asking parents to leave their children so that they can go and do essential work , and some of that essential work is putting themselves at risk , potentially . and we want to give those parents confidence that , when they leave their child with us , that child will receive something really worthwhile , and they can direct all of their attention to doing their job . lynne neagle am: just before you— . janet , have you got a supplementary on schools now , not on early years settings ? janet finch-saunders am: i lost the signal before , so it 's a little bit confusing at this end , so bear with me . just in terms of the closure of schools , i have been asked by teachers what does new purpose—you may have covered it , but bear in mind [ inaudible . ] —mean in practice . and also , they 're already asking what will next— ? i know you said earlier that next week could look and probably will look significantly different than this week , but what can they expect to be happening next week in terms of this new purpose work ? lynne neagle am: we 've covered that , janet . kirsty williams am: first of all , janet , i just want to say thank you very much for your kind comments . that 's really , really kind of you . we will be sending a letter today to clarify those positions . so , each school will receive letters today about the expectations of schools next week . lynne neagle am: i think you 're having trouble hearing us , are n't you , so i think— ? janet finch-saunders am: no , i heard that loud and clear . lynne neagle am: but i think you missed the earlier comments , when we went into some detail on the new purpose of schools . so , i 'm sorry about that ; we are having some problems with the connection . janet finch-saunders am: yes , we could n't get a signal . lynne neagle am: dawn . dawn bowden am: just in relation to special schools and how they will fit into this new purpose arrangement . kirsty williams am: yes , they 're absolutely central to that planning . we know , again , that some of these children are our most vulnerable and they are some of our most pressurised families . therefore , the same situation that we 've just described for maintained schools also applies to special schools . we 'll be having discussions about what arrangements can be made for those children within their own usual settings . in some cases , that may not be possible . so , again , already local authorities are making different provision . can i give a shout out to the work of rhondda cynon taf in this regard , who are already doing some excellent work with regard to how they can keep in touch with their children who usually would attend their special schools . but , again , steve can give more detail . steve davies: i think special schools have already been hit by this challenge , because a significant proportion of their children , because of their conditions , have not been coming to school , they 've been isolated . but the principle we 've used there is , actually , even if it 's a minority of children who go to those schools and are vulnerable , they deserve and need that support through the school . so , we would expect that to function with the focus on vulnerable children . but similarly , even in special schools , there will be children whose parents will be key workers , so we would expect them to apply that same principle . just quickly in response to the earlier question , while we may bring some groups of children into separate schools , we ’ ll have to continue with the principle of keeping social distance and any provision for a child in a special school in a different setting would be unlikely , given the nature of the special school , so we would look to cater for that within the original school . dawn bowden am: just a couple more questions from me . it ’ s likely , because i know it has already happened , that some schools might actually close before monday . some schools have already partially closed . are you quite happy that headteachers still have the discretion to do that , if they feel that ’ s the right thing to do ? kirsty williams am: in this situation , the discretion of the head still remains . as i said , we will be communicating with all schools today about our expectations , if at all possible , to have schools open for staff to do some of this planning and to be able to respond to these priority needs that we 've just talked about . steve davies: the rationale of headteachers for closing schools up to now has been that they ca n't cope with the safety of the children . i think , moving forward , it 's unlikely that that would be a rationale that headteachers would want to use for not engaging and planning for the future . dawn bowden am: we 're only talking about one more day , now , anyway , are n't we ? so , just in terms of confirmed cases in schools , is your view at this stage that , if there is a confirmed case in a school , once that school has been deep-cleaned , it can reopen again ? kirsty williams am: if we had a confirmed case in a school , then all the usual mechanisms arranged by public health wales would kick in at that point . dawn bowden am: okay . and my final question is in relation to the position of early years and childcare settings . i know that kind of crosses over into somebody else 's portfolio as well , but i think we know that . certainly what i 've seen , and i 'm sure this is true elsewhere as well , we 've seen nurseries closing down because the parents are actually taking the children out of those nurseries . i 've got one in particular , there are kids from the ages of 6 to 12 years in there , and the parents are taking them out . they 've got 30 staff there , catering for 200 children and no children to care for and the organisation , at this stage , is unable to claim on their insurance for the ongoing payment of those staff wages . is there any advice that we can give to people in that situation at this stage ? kirsty williams am: sure . as you say , many of these settings are businesses—people 's businesses and they play a hugely important role and it 's a very worrying time for them . we have said that we will continue to pay for childcare , delivered under the childcare offer even when a child is unable , or a parent is unwilling , to take up that place . so , if that setting is receiving a childcare payment from the welsh government as part of our childcare offer , that will be paid , regardless of whether that child attends or not . and i know that we 're also working with local authorities to ensure a similar position on flying start childcare and early education . so , that payment will be made , regardless of whether a child is attending . it 's also important that childcare settings will be able to apply for the various packages of support that are being made available by my colleague , ken skates . lynne neagle am: hefin , then janet . hefin david am: yes , i 'd just like to turn that around from the parents ' point of view . with schools closing , there are a lot of parents then losing 10 hours of free childcare , but from a settings point of view , they 'll continue to be able to receive , for the time being , the nursery care . kirsty williams am: yes , so the decision that has been taken by my colleague , julie morgan , is that settings should stay open at the moment unless public health changes . that 's being kept under constant review on public health . again , the issue is that we know that that childcare is vital to many families , especially—and we 're particularly concerned about those individuals who are trying to help us overcome and solve these problems . if you have any specific questions about that , we 'll be happy to take them back to julie morgan . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: is this the cylch question ? lynne neagle am: yes , please . janet finch-saunders am: sorry , thank you . yes , just basically , cylch meithrin , there are concerns— [ interruption . ] lynne neagle am: we 've lost janet . we 'll come back to her . kirsty williams am: i think if the issue is about funding for cylch meithrin , these are not normal circumstances . as a welsh government , we will take every step to provide continuity of funding , if at all possible . we will overcome this , and when we overcome this situation we find ourselves in , we will need those childcare settings , we will need those private businesses and we will need our cylch meithrin to be there to respond and to be able to go on doing the job that they usually do for us . and if there is any way that we can , as a government , ensure that that happens by carrying on funding things , even if they are not able to run , all usual— [ inaudible . ] — around service-level agreements are off . i 'm not setting the precedent—let me make that absolutely clear . [ laughter . ] but , you know , we will not undermine businesses and voluntary provision like cylch by withdrawing welsh government funding . i hope i 've been clear . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you for that . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , kirsty . lynne neagle am: if we can move on to talk about exams , obviously you made the announcement yesterday . i completely understand that everything is a very fast-moving situation , but , as you know , there are a lot of questions that people have about young people who 've put a lot of work in . are you able to tell us any more today ? in particular , have you got any idea about timescales now for setting out what the approach will be to handling the lack of summer exams ? kirsty williams am: yes , it is a devastating decision to have to have been taken , but i have done so on the very , very clear and unambiguous advice from qualifications wales . i met with qualifications wales and the wjec yesterday . what was most important to them was that i made an early decision and i did not equivocate on what would happen for the exams . i was able to make an informal decision at that meeting , and then , of course , there is a formal process that we have to go through . that , now , allows qualifications wales and the exam board to operationalise that decision , and they will be communicating with schools as quickly as possible about what schools will need to do to ensure that the systems that they will now put in place can work . we are trying , as far as we can , as i understand it , to be able to mirror as closely as possible the usual results day , for instance . it might not be possible , because , of course , we 're dealing with a situation that requires human beings to be involved in it , and those human beings could find themselves unwell . so , our best attempts will be to maintain the normal rhythm of an exams day in august , but that has to be caveated by the fact that we 're dealing with difficult circumstances . but , the wjec and qualifications wales will be making urgent communications to exam centres to explain what will need to happen next . lynne neagle am: okay . janet , you had a question on this . janet finch-saunders am: yes , i think i raised it yesterday , kirsty , but you were receiving loads of questions . i 'd just ask for some further clarification about coursework , because only 30 per cent of that is done . years 11 and 13 , typically , in my case they 're what 's been raised with me—do you have any advice for them ? kirsty williams am: okay , so , all exams are cancelled , but year 11 and year 13 will be given a grade—i think that 's a distinction that people need to be aware of . that is because those years and those grades are gateway qualifications , and they are points of movement in the education system . so , it 's really important for those students that they are not disadvantaged in any way by not being able to receive a grade that helps them to make a decision as a qualifying step into what they will do next , whether that be university , whether that be a degree apprenticeship or whether that be going into sixth form , into a college , into an apprenticeship or into some work-based learning opportunities . that 's why we have to focus on those children , because for them , it is absolutely critical that we do . we are at an advantage in wales , can i say ? because of the nature of our examination system , those students already have a lot of externally assessed work that we can use as a basis to move forward on . because we 've kept our as-levels , we have got that data . because we have a gcse system— . our year 11s , if they 're doing triple science , they 've already done 40 per cent of their paper , so we 're very fortunate . because of the structures that we have got in our qualification system , there is already lots and lots of externally-verified work that we can use , alongside , potentially , teacher evaluation of students as well . and i think that 's really important . we ’ re starting from a better base than simply having none of that externally-verified data . what will also be important is that these children have confidence in those qualifications , and so we will be looking at a modulated arrangement within wales , and i know that qualifications wales are discussing with their counterparts across the uk a modulated system across the uk . so , actually , we can make sure that our standards are maintained by actually having that modulation across the uk . so , we know that those children never have to worry about the rigour that has gone into determining that grade . so , they can have real confidence . lynne neagle am: okay . helen mary . helen mary jones am: thank you . a supplementary question that might feed into that moderation . you 'll know that the national union of students has suggested that black and minority ethnic children and children from the working class , on the whole , do n't do as well , in terms of their assessment by their own teachers . i do n't know what their evidence is for that . we also know , of course , that boys tend to do better in exams , and girls tend to do better at coursework , for whatever reason that is . so , just to ask you at this early stage to build in those considerations around potential unconscious bias into that overall system that you 're talking about . and , of course , you are right to say that , because we have got some elements of external moderation here , those factors may be less for us in wales than they might for colleagues in england . kirsty williams am: yes , i think we are starting at a different base , thank goodness . so , you 're quite right . as i said , students will have done unit 1 papers last year if they 're gcse students . dare i say it , some might even have done early entry . so , we still have elements of coursework that are externally verified . so , children might well have done lots of oral exams in their english and in their welsh language . so , we have lots of pieces of work that will have been externally verified . i certainly will ensure that these concerns are passed on . i 'm sure that qualifications wales are thinking about it . i have every confidence that they and the wjec will come up with a very comprehensive way of establishing those grades , but i have to say , in some ways , i have to step back now , because you would not expect me , in normal circumstances , to dictate to the wjec how much percentage goes for that , and how much percentage is allocated for that ; that would not be appropriate for a minister . my job is to make the decision on the examinations on the basis of having confidence that what can be put in place is fair and is equitable , and i have confidence that that will be the case . helen mary jones am: thank you . lynne neagle am: suzy . suzy davies am: a few things from me . one is , obviously , pupils are being asked to work at home as well now , some of whom will be doing gcse and a-level courses . so , there 's just a question , generally , from me— because we 're encouraging these kids to carry on working—how that will be accommodated by qualifications wales , i guess , in this modulation process . it may be that your at-home work will be of a higher standard or a lower standard than a teacher would be expecting . secondly , you mentioned the as-levels , of course , as being of value at the moment , but we 've got people in year 12 who now wo n't be doing their ass . is there any steer at this stage about what they will be expected to do ? will they be doing two sets of exams next year , for example ? or is as just off the table ? in which case , how are the a2s going to be calculated in due course ? and then , finally from me , we do have some vocational qualifications that are up for examination as well—your btecs , and i think it 's the association of accounting technicians , which is a lot of computer-based learning—which is due to be examined within three weeks . those aren ’ t a-levels or gcses . i appreciate that you may not have the answer just at the moment , but are they off as well is the question , i guess ? kirsty williams am: with regard to as-levels—no final decision has been made for exactly how those students will be treated . there are a range of options that could be used , but again , we will want to be thinking about student well-being , fairness and equity in that regard , and i will update members as soon as i have received definitive advice from qualifications wales around that , and that has n't happened yet . with regard to other types of qualifications , as you will be aware , the vast majority of btecs is a modular , continually-assessed piece of work , and we would have every expectation that btecs will be able to be awarded , but clearly , those conversations are with awarding bodies—they tend to be uk awarding bodies , rather then necessarily our wjec exam board—and those conversations are ongoing . but i have every expectation that those qualifications will be awarded and , of course , because of their nature there 's even more evidence of continued assessment . huw , i do n't know if there 's anything else that you would like to add about those types of qualifications . huw morris: no . i think you 've covered most of it . i do n't have a definitive answer for the att qualification , but we can look into that and come back to you . suzy davies am: well , i 've just had a constituent ask , so that would be very helpful . and homeworking— kirsty williams am: homeworking , right . suzy davies am: —is that going to count towards the assessments , overall assessments ? kirsty williams am: well , potentially , as i said . i do n't know the exact elements . what will be absolutely necessary is that qualifications wales and the wjec will be able to give absolute clarity and simplicity around how those grades will be arrived at , because parents , teachers and students will want to know that , and my expectation is on them to be able to clearly communicate what elements will and will not be taken into consideration when awarding those grades . suzy davies am: that 's great . at least we covered it . thank you , minister—thank you , kirsty . lynne neagle am: and , just before we move on , have the universities across the uk indicated that they are content with this approach going forward—content to accept students on this basis ? kirsty williams am: certainly . there have been discussions with universities and ucas , of course , that this also has a bearing on . one of the— . and the views of university and how university terms might be impacted is one of the ways and one of the reasons that we 've factored in to making these decisions . those discussions with universities are ongoing , are n't they , huw ? huw morris: yes . so , we 've been in regular conversation with universities wales and through them with universities uk and we 've received every indication that the approach that 's been adopted here has been welcomed by the institutions . those conversations will continue as we work through the practicalities of how the gradings that are awarded are going to feed through into university admissions decisions and enrolment . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . well , we 've got some questions now from suzy on the potential closures of colleges and universities . suzy davies am: okay . well , it 's a very general question , really . i appreciate you 've already indicated there are lots of ongoing conversations , but my understanding is whether colleges or universities close is pretty much still at their own discretion . we 're going to be asking some questions on emergency legislation shortly , which may impact on the answer you can give today , but what sort of conversations are you having with fe and he at the moment about how they decide ? kirsty williams am: well , you 're absolutely right . as we often say in this committee , universities are autonomous institutions—a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question . universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them . colleges are in a similar position , looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods , and the bill , potentially , does give us more powers of intervention in both the fe and the he sector . suzy davies am: i might ask you about that in a minute , because i do n't even know what the bill says yet . kirsty williams am: huw , i do n't know if there 's anything you want to add . huw morris: no—just to confirm what 's been said and also to add in that independent training providers , similarly autonomous , like colleges and universities , have been moving in the same direction . we 've been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that 's been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies . we 've got consistency in the approach and a common desire , and investment in moving towards online support for students . suzy davies am: and there 's still this safety net idea . certainly , colleges have indicated , as with schools , that , for the most vulnerable learners , they 'll have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis . huw morris: that 's my understanding , yes , and , again , we 've been in regular conversation with them about that . my understanding is that they 're going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions . suzy davies am: that 's fair enough . and , presumably , education maintenance allowance will still be paid . kirsty williams am: yes . arrangements have been made to ensure that ema continues to be paid to all students who are entitled . suzy davies am: that 's right . you indicated that any welsh government support 's going to stay , whatever the circumstances are—in your portfolio . kirsty williams am: yes . i 'm doing my best , but it 's an absolute yes on the ema . there will be no disruption to ema . suzy davies am: okay . you might get some further questions on he and fe . lynne neagle am: yes . we 've got some further questions , indeed , from helen mary and then hefin . helen mary jones am: now or in a bit ? lynne neagle am: yes . helen mary jones am: just further to ema , of course , at the moment , that has an attendance qualification , does n't it ? and you do n't get your ema if you do n't turn up . should we take from your last answer that that attendance qualification does n't apply anymore ? kirsty williams am: yes . they ca n't turn up if the institution is not open , and that 's not their fault . helen mary jones am: no , but that is something that 's been a worry , so that 's really encouraging to hear . thinking about students in higher education , can you give an assurance that student maintenance payments will continue as normal ? is that the intention ? kirsty williams am: yes . helen mary jones am: that 's really good to hear . and have you given any special ministerial instruction to student finance wales on processing applications for support or changes of circumstances , or is that something that 's kind of ongoing at the moment ? kirsty williams am: those conversations are ongoing with the student loans company . as i said , we anticipate no disruption to— . we do n't anticipate any change in the approach to students as a result of this . individual student circumstances could well change and our expectation would be that the student loans company would respond to that . all i would say is , just to remind people : people who work for the student loans company are no more able to resist this disease than anybody else . there will undoubtedly in some cases be really practical challenges to service delivery , simply because organisations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they are reacting to social-distancing messages from the government . so , i think we just need to bear that in mind : that these organisations are doing their best , but , if they are badly affected by staff numbers being off because of the virus , then i hope people will give them due consideration . helen mary jones am: yes , that makes sense , of course , because we 've been told that universities wo n't be able to entirely close , because there will be students who ca n't go home— kirsty williams am: it is their home . helen mary jones am: —overseas students , for example . what discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students ' basic needs are met , that there 's still food , shelter , whatever they need ? kirsty williams am: well , obviously , universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances , and every conversation that huw 's been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that . huw morris: we instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease , not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in china and other parts of south-east asia . and so , as the disease has progressed , we 've seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the uk , and i am assured that the universities here in wales have got processes in place that support those learners . helen mary jones am: that 's really helpful . and on this specifically—last question from me— have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees , should the academic year not be completed ? huw morris: so , as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online , clearly , there are lessons that will need to be taken on board . there are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs . the intention in all of these institutions is that they will complete their course of study . there are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed . failing those institutional mechanisms , there is a uk-wide system through the office of the independent adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have . so , we 're confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs . lynne neagle am: okay . suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: no , mr morris has answered my question . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've got a couple more questions now on vulnerable learners . i 've got helen mary , then hefin . helen mary jones am: i think , chair , the minister has already answered what the— . but thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and well-being of staff and learners across a range of educational settings , or , indeed , young people who ca n't access educational settings , what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and well-being might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone ? kirsty williams am: yes , that is correct . so , our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure—which i think , if we 're honest , we have to acknowledge is what we 're looking at—we would expect school staff—well-being staff , for instance in school—to be doing check-ins—phone check-ins , potentially , or facetime check-ins , with students , just to keep in touch with them as we go forward . we 'll be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available—so , for instance , meic website—so , looking to use a variety of platforms . we do , of course , have the formal nhs counselling services . i 'm concerned , of course , that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school . we know that , and we 're just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists—online counselling tools that children already use because they do n't want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor . they 're already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue , as far as possible , those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered , and their worries . i think we have to remember that this is a really worrying time for children and young people . one of the reasons , again , that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible—and teachers have been working so hard to do that—is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we 've needed and wanted to maintain . children will have worries about their own health ; they 'll have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents ; they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves . so , we need to understand , and i think we will also have to recognise , that this support will have to be ongoing once we 're back to normal , and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience . they are incredibly resilient , and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages . they are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole 'washing your hands ' and things like that than even adults have been . so , they are incredibly resilient , but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them . helen mary jones am: can i just— ? just a supplementary to that—you 've mentioned already , kirsty , the importance of youth services , and , particularly thinking voluntarily youth services , you 've given the commitment , when were talking about mudiad ysgolion meithrin earlier , that services that are part-funded by grants through the welsh government , for example , thinking of the national youth voluntary service—will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well ? obviously , local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open , but , in terms of the direct support from welsh government , can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time ? kirsty williams am: no formal decision has been made , but if people are in receipt of a government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public— helen mary jones am: because it 's not safe . kirsty williams am: —because it 's not safe to do so , i do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying , 'we 'll have our money back , thank you very much . ' lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . helen mary jones am: that will make a lot of people happy , thank you . [ laughter . ] kirsty williams am: as i said , we are facing unprecedented circumstances . the normal rules of engagement have to change and , those organisations , we 'll need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal , and we would n't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that . our call to the youth service is a call to arms , though . when we 're trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for front-line staff children , they have a valuable role to play and i know that local government and the council for wales of voluntary youth services are already in discussion about how youth services— . many of our youth services work on an outreach basis . those traditional youth clubs , because of austerity , are not necessarily there anymore , so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work , and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier . helen mary jones am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . hefin , briefly , and then we 're going to take one final question from suzy on emergency legislation . hefin david am: all right . i 'll declare an interest as a parent of a child with additional learning needs , although the question i 'm about to ask does n't reflect her interests . additional learning needs pupils who are waiting outcomes of referrals—if they 're currently waiting an outcome of a referral , will that process will be suspended or will it continue as normal ? and , if it is suspended , will it pick up where it left off from this point ? kirsty williams am: i think we have to recognise that the ability to deliver business as usual has been massively compromised . i 'm sure people will try and continue to do their normal activities and their normal jobs , but that might not be possible . i will have to check that , hefin , to be honest . i do n't want to give you any false assurance if , actually , the intelligence on the ground is that that simply will not be able to happen . but we don't— hefin david am: can we have a clear line on that ? kirsty williams am: we do n't want to jeopardise anybody , but as i said , some of the normal services are simply not available as everybody turns their attention to trying to respond to the pandemic . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . final question—because i know that the minister 's got a lot of things that she needs to get on with—from suzy on emergency legislation . suzy davies am: i 'm not going to ask you if you 'll use any powers you get under the emergency legislation , but are you able to give us some indication of what they might be ? kirsty williams am: sure . for instance , the bill will provide welsh ministers with powers to temporarily close schools or other educational institutions , childcare premises ; powers to give temporary continuity direction—so , actually , the other way around , force things to be open—and to be able to direct resources . so , that includes , as i said , i could direct something to stay open if that institution was trying to close down . the powers also give flexibility to maybe be able to direct staff to other institutions that they would not normally work in , if that was part of our resilience needs . we 'd also be looking at , for instance , relaxing requirements around ratios in childcare settings , or we might be wanting to do things around food . so , obviously , we have rules around the level of nutrition that schools should be giving their children . if there is a continuing role for schools in providing food , we might have to be a bit more flexible about what that might look like . so , those kinds of flexibilities—to be able to suspend things , direct things—that we would not normally have in normal circumstances . suzy davies am: okay . and just to finish this one off—you may not be able to answer this one , in all fairness—in those situations where it 's the government who says 'no ' to various things , does that then help people in the situation of dawn 's nursery , and insurance claims suddenly become more likely ? kirsty williams am: i 'm not an expert on insurance , and i do n't know if anybody here can help me . but what my understanding is , is that even where government has given a direction that does not necessarily mean that you will be covered by your insurance . what we 're finding in the private sector is that insurance companies are not paying out , because even when a government has directed it , they do not regard this as a disruption to business . so , the insurance industry is not my area of expertise . suzy davies am: no , no , i accept that . kirsty williams am: it 's not my area of expertise , but from what i understand from discussions around the cabinet table , this is particularly problematic . let me give you an example about how we 've been trying to overcome some of this—it feels like an awfully long time ago now— you 'll be aware that we gave directions earlier around cancellation of school trips abroad . trying to make sure that that direction came from the foreign and commonwealth office , rather than the department for education was a real battle , because again there were fears that , unless that advice came from the foreign and commonwealth office , insurance would not kick in , and that was a two-day discussion . suzy davies am: okay . this is helpful to know , actually . kirsty williams am: so , these are the kinds of things that we 're grappling with . but , as i said , thinking about it , that was only last week , but it feels like an aeon ago . suzy davies am: i 'm not holding you to that , but it helps us manage the questions we get asked . kirsty williams am: yes , but as i said , insurance is not my area of expertise . suzy davies am: no , but thank you for answering . lynne neagle am: okay . well , we 've come to the end of our time . can i thank you for attending this morning , and your officials ? we do recognise what an incredibly challenging time this is , and we 'd like to place on record our thanks to all of you for the work that you 're doing to try and see us through this crisis . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . thank you again , all of you , for your attendance . item 3 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

according to kirsty , no formal decision had been made . they were facing unprecedented circumstances . the normal rules had to change and , those organizations , they would need them to be providing youth services for children when they were back to normal , and they would n't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that . their call to the youth service was a call to arms , though .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: okay . good morning everybody . industrial designer: good morning . project manager: oh , everybody is not ready . user interface: uh almost . project manager: alright . user interface: ready . project manager: okay , let 's go . so , we 're here today to to have our first kick-off meeting about uh this new project we 're going to tak to talk about in a few minutes . um so i will be uh sebastian the project manager . um you are the user interface: i 'm uh michael . i 'm the user interface designer . project manager: okay . marketing: hi i 'm guillermo . i 'm the marketing expert . industrial designer: and i am hemant , the industrial designer . project manager: okay , very good . thanks for being here . um so let 's have a look to the the agenda . so , we are going to go through this agenda uh and mainly first to uh to make to to be used to the tools uh available in this nice and smart meeting room we have here . um then we 'll go to uh the plans for project and have general discussions about it . so , the goal of this project is to uh developed a new remote control . um it should be original , trendy , and also user friendly . as usual we will follow the the project method um that we are using in the in our company . it is in three step as you know . first the functional design . the second 's a conceptual design , and then the detailed design . during each step uh of each design we wi you will work uh s separately , individually on uh your specific tasks and will m we will meet to um to discuss and take decisions about uh what you 've you 've you did and what uh we will do next . so first , we have to to train ourself with all the um the tools availables in the in this nice meeting room and uh particularly the the white board so uh we are going to go through the white board and take some um s some notes or do some drawings . so who want to start ? mister . user interface: ah well if no one else wants to , yeah . okay so , want me to draw my favourite animal . project manager: user interface: let 's see . well , i do n't really have a favourite animal , but um project manager: you have one in mind ? user interface: uh i think i have one in mind , so uh i 'm gon na about the uh spider because you can actually draw it pretty well in the corner of a white board . the spider has a spider lives in a web and uh it has eight legs , and uh it can move all about the web in two dimensions . unless it 's a three dimensional web which y they have sometimes . there are some spiders that live in like that have like uh kind of a a big ball of a of a web . and uh the other thing is some spiders can actually uh fly like uh they have uh they let out like uh a stream of like the web building material but it 's it acts like a parachute so they can actually kind of go and find new uh build a new web somewhere else . so i think they did this in uh in charlotte 's web that movie that little uh well it 's actually a book first but uh um at the end all the the spiders kinda flew away . project manager: okay . user interface: so , that 's my animal . project manager: th thank you . very interesting . guillermo you want to ? marketing: 'kay i dunno why , but when i was a child i i wanted to be a a panther project manager: marketing: not a pink panther , industrial designer: but do n't you think it 's very difficult to draw a panther ? marketing: or maybe yes . project manager: it would be very funny for us . marketing: uh yeah yeah . industrial designer: so bad i do n't like it . project manager: oh . industrial designer: marketing: okay it 's a friendly panther . user interface: industrial designer: user interface: maybe it 's happy 'cause it just ate someone . marketing: yeah maybe . user interface: marketing: um . actually , honestly i i i dunno what 's what 's his it 's be behaviour , i dunno if if it 's the male who who hunts or it 's the female uh , i i i have watched that lions di did n't hunt it 's the the female lions who who hunt , so but i like it because it 's fast , and it 's black as well , so it can he it can hide itself very easily and it 's it 's it looks like um powerful , strong , uh i dunno . i i watch a a film about a black panther when i was a child and i was in that age when everything was shocking me a lot . user interface: project manager: okay . thank you . marketing: okay . project manager: hemant . industrial designer: um sure . project manager: user interface: so you do n't like pink panthers ? marketing: i like it . project manager: industrial designer: oh yeah . thanks . this lapel is coming out once in a while . it 's not very strong . okay . so , not the favourite animal , but i think i 'll draw elephant . project manager: industrial designer: i 'll try to draw elephant . it 's a problem . okay , thanks . okay so , elephant goes like this , and then it has four feet . i do n't know whether there 's any dist there should be any distance or not , but i think this is the easiest . and then we have it 's trunk . and yep something like this . project manager: industrial designer: an eye , cute . marketing: industrial designer: yeah , so project manager: poor elephant . industrial designer: and sometimes they have a hump . it seems that uh elephants are pretty friendly and they they have one very important way a different way of walking . so when they walk , wherever they are going to put their first feet , the second feet will always be . when they 'll come to that position the second , the third feet will be there . that 's the way they walk . and that 's very peculiar about them . none of the other animals walk like this . and they are very useful to human beings . at least few few hundred years ago when there was no means of transportations or something , or when they had to carry huge um loads from one place to another , elephants were very useful . and they are found in um usually the warm countries . and um they are the biggest terrestrial animal . that 's what i know about them . so , that 's what i wanted to tell about elephants . user interface: so is this uh an indian or an african elephant , 'cause you have n't drawn the ears ? industrial designer: there are two kind of uh yeah , they are very different , indian and african elephants . so indian elephant is having one bump , i think , and the african have two . and then there 's a difference in the trunk of the animals , these elephants who are indian and so at some for some elephants it 's the trunk is having one do we have some message there ? project manager: yes . we have to i have to catch you , industrial designer: wind up project manager: sorry . we have to to go through the meeting . industrial designer: ? okay , some other time . user interface: okay . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: thank you . user interface: we can discuss that off-line . project manager: yeah we 'll discuss a f a fly or do we 'll do another meeting abo on elephants . industrial designer: thanks . project manager: so user interface: project manager: so another important part of the project is about money , uh and about so about finances . so we should target selling price of twenty-five euro for this remote control and uh we have um which which would generate a profit of of um fifty million euros , okay . and we should target the inter an international market . user interface: so could i just ask one question , um is this a stand-alone unit that we 're gon na be selling ? so it 's gon na be you already have a tv but you 're buying an extra remote control for it or something ? project manager: o this is the next topic we have to discuss exactly , user interface: okay , alright . project manager: so let 's go to it . so um we should decide which kind of remote control we want to uh we want to uh we want to go . should be should should it be um specific remote control to some specific device ? should it be a universal one ? and uh etcetera . so um so i 'm waiting for your for your inputs very quickly because we have only three three minutes to go . user interface: okay well , so , it seems the the first thing that they 've kinda specified is the price like based on how much profit we wan na make , which seems to a kind of a little strange if we do n't know what the the product is yet , but i guess if that 's if that 's the requirement that we need to to design the the product to actually fit that that price bracket so , i guess we 're gon na need to find out what 's actually you know , what people ar are willing to pay for um what kind of product they 're expecting for twenty-five euro project manager: okay . user interface: because it seems quite a lot for a remote control , project manager: okay i think this is more a job to our user interface: so it 's project manager: market person yeah . industrial designer: marketing person . user interface: yeah . project manager: so it should be the topic of maybe of the next meeting just to to have an overview of this and uh in which direction we should go . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so we need to close the meeting . uh we 'll have a new meeting soon and uh so the work every every of you ha have t d to do . so um you have to work on the on the working design , you have to uh work on the technical functions , and uh you have to work on us user requirements specs , alright ? marketing: yeah . project manager: um you will receive some information by emails , i as usual . thanks for coming today . user interface: okay . project manager: thanks . industrial designer: thanks . user interface: alright .

project manager initiated the first meeting topic on the new project agenda , including welcoming the groupmates , the project plan , the project method and tools . next , project manager invited everyone to draw their favourite animal on the whiteboard . then , project manager introduced the target selling price of twenty-five euros for the remote control and a profit of fifty million euros . the target market would be the international market .

summarize the project plan . </s> project manager: okay . good morning everybody . industrial designer: good morning . project manager: oh , everybody is not ready . user interface: uh almost . project manager: alright . user interface: ready . project manager: okay , let 's go . so , we 're here today to to have our first kick-off meeting about uh this new project we 're going to tak to talk about in a few minutes . um so i will be uh sebastian the project manager . um you are the user interface: i 'm uh michael . i 'm the user interface designer . project manager: okay . marketing: hi i 'm guillermo . i 'm the marketing expert . industrial designer: and i am hemant , the industrial designer . project manager: okay , very good . thanks for being here . um so let 's have a look to the the agenda . so , we are going to go through this agenda uh and mainly first to uh to make to to be used to the tools uh available in this nice and smart meeting room we have here . um then we 'll go to uh the plans for project and have general discussions about it . so , the goal of this project is to uh developed a new remote control . um it should be original , trendy , and also user friendly . as usual we will follow the the project method um that we are using in the in our company . it is in three step as you know . first the functional design . the second 's a conceptual design , and then the detailed design . during each step uh of each design we wi you will work uh s separately , individually on uh your specific tasks and will m we will meet to um to discuss and take decisions about uh what you 've you 've you did and what uh we will do next . so first , we have to to train ourself with all the um the tools availables in the in this nice meeting room and uh particularly the the white board so uh we are going to go through the white board and take some um s some notes or do some drawings . so who want to start ? mister . user interface: ah well if no one else wants to , yeah . okay so , want me to draw my favourite animal . project manager: user interface: let 's see . well , i do n't really have a favourite animal , but um project manager: you have one in mind ? user interface: uh i think i have one in mind , so uh i 'm gon na about the uh spider because you can actually draw it pretty well in the corner of a white board . the spider has a spider lives in a web and uh it has eight legs , and uh it can move all about the web in two dimensions . unless it 's a three dimensional web which y they have sometimes . there are some spiders that live in like that have like uh kind of a a big ball of a of a web . and uh the other thing is some spiders can actually uh fly like uh they have uh they let out like uh a stream of like the web building material but it 's it acts like a parachute so they can actually kind of go and find new uh build a new web somewhere else . so i think they did this in uh in charlotte 's web that movie that little uh well it 's actually a book first but uh um at the end all the the spiders kinda flew away . project manager: okay . user interface: so , that 's my animal . project manager: th thank you . very interesting . guillermo you want to ? marketing: 'kay i dunno why , but when i was a child i i wanted to be a a panther project manager: marketing: not a pink panther , industrial designer: but do n't you think it 's very difficult to draw a panther ? marketing: or maybe yes . project manager: it would be very funny for us . marketing: uh yeah yeah . industrial designer: so bad i do n't like it . project manager: oh . industrial designer: marketing: okay it 's a friendly panther . user interface: industrial designer: user interface: maybe it 's happy 'cause it just ate someone . marketing: yeah maybe . user interface: marketing: um . actually , honestly i i i dunno what 's what 's his it 's be behaviour , i dunno if if it 's the male who who hunts or it 's the female uh , i i i have watched that lions di did n't hunt it 's the the female lions who who hunt , so but i like it because it 's fast , and it 's black as well , so it can he it can hide itself very easily and it 's it 's it looks like um powerful , strong , uh i dunno . i i watch a a film about a black panther when i was a child and i was in that age when everything was shocking me a lot . user interface: project manager: okay . thank you . marketing: okay . project manager: hemant . industrial designer: um sure . project manager: user interface: so you do n't like pink panthers ? marketing: i like it . project manager: industrial designer: oh yeah . thanks . this lapel is coming out once in a while . it 's not very strong . okay . so , not the favourite animal , but i think i 'll draw elephant . project manager: industrial designer: i 'll try to draw elephant . it 's a problem . okay , thanks . okay so , elephant goes like this , and then it has four feet . i do n't know whether there 's any dist there should be any distance or not , but i think this is the easiest . and then we have it 's trunk . and yep something like this . project manager: industrial designer: an eye , cute . marketing: industrial designer: yeah , so project manager: poor elephant . industrial designer: and sometimes they have a hump . it seems that uh elephants are pretty friendly and they they have one very important way a different way of walking . so when they walk , wherever they are going to put their first feet , the second feet will always be . when they 'll come to that position the second , the third feet will be there . that 's the way they walk . and that 's very peculiar about them . none of the other animals walk like this . and they are very useful to human beings . at least few few hundred years ago when there was no means of transportations or something , or when they had to carry huge um loads from one place to another , elephants were very useful . and they are found in um usually the warm countries . and um they are the biggest terrestrial animal . that 's what i know about them . so , that 's what i wanted to tell about elephants . user interface: so is this uh an indian or an african elephant , 'cause you have n't drawn the ears ? industrial designer: there are two kind of uh yeah , they are very different , indian and african elephants . so indian elephant is having one bump , i think , and the african have two . and then there 's a difference in the trunk of the animals , these elephants who are indian and so at some for some elephants it 's the trunk is having one do we have some message there ? project manager: yes . we have to i have to catch you , industrial designer: wind up project manager: sorry . we have to to go through the meeting . industrial designer: ? okay , some other time . user interface: okay . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: thank you . user interface: we can discuss that off-line . project manager: yeah we 'll discuss a f a fly or do we 'll do another meeting abo on elephants . industrial designer: thanks . project manager: so user interface: project manager: so another important part of the project is about money , uh and about so about finances . so we should target selling price of twenty-five euro for this remote control and uh we have um which which would generate a profit of of um fifty million euros , okay . and we should target the inter an international market . user interface: so could i just ask one question , um is this a stand-alone unit that we 're gon na be selling ? so it 's gon na be you already have a tv but you 're buying an extra remote control for it or something ? project manager: o this is the next topic we have to discuss exactly , user interface: okay , alright . project manager: so let 's go to it . so um we should decide which kind of remote control we want to uh we want to uh we want to go . should be should should it be um specific remote control to some specific device ? should it be a universal one ? and uh etcetera . so um so i 'm waiting for your for your inputs very quickly because we have only three three minutes to go . user interface: okay well , so , it seems the the first thing that they 've kinda specified is the price like based on how much profit we wan na make , which seems to a kind of a little strange if we do n't know what the the product is yet , but i guess if that 's if that 's the requirement that we need to to design the the product to actually fit that that price bracket so , i guess we 're gon na need to find out what 's actually you know , what people ar are willing to pay for um what kind of product they 're expecting for twenty-five euro project manager: okay . user interface: because it seems quite a lot for a remote control , project manager: okay i think this is more a job to our user interface: so it 's project manager: market person yeah . industrial designer: marketing person . user interface: yeah . project manager: so it should be the topic of maybe of the next meeting just to to have an overview of this and uh in which direction we should go . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so we need to close the meeting . uh we 'll have a new meeting soon and uh so the work every every of you ha have t d to do . so um you have to work on the on the working design , you have to uh work on the technical functions , and uh you have to work on us user requirements specs , alright ? marketing: yeah . project manager: um you will receive some information by emails , i as usual . thanks for coming today . user interface: okay . project manager: thanks . industrial designer: thanks . user interface: alright .

project manager introduced that the goal of this project was to develop a new remote control . it should be original , trendy , and also user friendly . the group would be going to follow the project method , which included three steps . first the functional design . the second 's a conceptual design , and then the detailed design . during each step of each design , groupmates need to work individually on their specific tasks and will meet to discuss and take decisions about what they did and what they will do next .

summarize the discussion on favourite animals . </s> project manager: okay . good morning everybody . industrial designer: good morning . project manager: oh , everybody is not ready . user interface: uh almost . project manager: alright . user interface: ready . project manager: okay , let 's go . so , we 're here today to to have our first kick-off meeting about uh this new project we 're going to tak to talk about in a few minutes . um so i will be uh sebastian the project manager . um you are the user interface: i 'm uh michael . i 'm the user interface designer . project manager: okay . marketing: hi i 'm guillermo . i 'm the marketing expert . industrial designer: and i am hemant , the industrial designer . project manager: okay , very good . thanks for being here . um so let 's have a look to the the agenda . so , we are going to go through this agenda uh and mainly first to uh to make to to be used to the tools uh available in this nice and smart meeting room we have here . um then we 'll go to uh the plans for project and have general discussions about it . so , the goal of this project is to uh developed a new remote control . um it should be original , trendy , and also user friendly . as usual we will follow the the project method um that we are using in the in our company . it is in three step as you know . first the functional design . the second 's a conceptual design , and then the detailed design . during each step uh of each design we wi you will work uh s separately , individually on uh your specific tasks and will m we will meet to um to discuss and take decisions about uh what you 've you 've you did and what uh we will do next . so first , we have to to train ourself with all the um the tools availables in the in this nice meeting room and uh particularly the the white board so uh we are going to go through the white board and take some um s some notes or do some drawings . so who want to start ? mister . user interface: ah well if no one else wants to , yeah . okay so , want me to draw my favourite animal . project manager: user interface: let 's see . well , i do n't really have a favourite animal , but um project manager: you have one in mind ? user interface: uh i think i have one in mind , so uh i 'm gon na about the uh spider because you can actually draw it pretty well in the corner of a white board . the spider has a spider lives in a web and uh it has eight legs , and uh it can move all about the web in two dimensions . unless it 's a three dimensional web which y they have sometimes . there are some spiders that live in like that have like uh kind of a a big ball of a of a web . and uh the other thing is some spiders can actually uh fly like uh they have uh they let out like uh a stream of like the web building material but it 's it acts like a parachute so they can actually kind of go and find new uh build a new web somewhere else . so i think they did this in uh in charlotte 's web that movie that little uh well it 's actually a book first but uh um at the end all the the spiders kinda flew away . project manager: okay . user interface: so , that 's my animal . project manager: th thank you . very interesting . guillermo you want to ? marketing: 'kay i dunno why , but when i was a child i i wanted to be a a panther project manager: marketing: not a pink panther , industrial designer: but do n't you think it 's very difficult to draw a panther ? marketing: or maybe yes . project manager: it would be very funny for us . marketing: uh yeah yeah . industrial designer: so bad i do n't like it . project manager: oh . industrial designer: marketing: okay it 's a friendly panther . user interface: industrial designer: user interface: maybe it 's happy 'cause it just ate someone . marketing: yeah maybe . user interface: marketing: um . actually , honestly i i i dunno what 's what 's his it 's be behaviour , i dunno if if it 's the male who who hunts or it 's the female uh , i i i have watched that lions di did n't hunt it 's the the female lions who who hunt , so but i like it because it 's fast , and it 's black as well , so it can he it can hide itself very easily and it 's it 's it looks like um powerful , strong , uh i dunno . i i watch a a film about a black panther when i was a child and i was in that age when everything was shocking me a lot . user interface: project manager: okay . thank you . marketing: okay . project manager: hemant . industrial designer: um sure . project manager: user interface: so you do n't like pink panthers ? marketing: i like it . project manager: industrial designer: oh yeah . thanks . this lapel is coming out once in a while . it 's not very strong . okay . so , not the favourite animal , but i think i 'll draw elephant . project manager: industrial designer: i 'll try to draw elephant . it 's a problem . okay , thanks . okay so , elephant goes like this , and then it has four feet . i do n't know whether there 's any dist there should be any distance or not , but i think this is the easiest . and then we have it 's trunk . and yep something like this . project manager: industrial designer: an eye , cute . marketing: industrial designer: yeah , so project manager: poor elephant . industrial designer: and sometimes they have a hump . it seems that uh elephants are pretty friendly and they they have one very important way a different way of walking . so when they walk , wherever they are going to put their first feet , the second feet will always be . when they 'll come to that position the second , the third feet will be there . that 's the way they walk . and that 's very peculiar about them . none of the other animals walk like this . and they are very useful to human beings . at least few few hundred years ago when there was no means of transportations or something , or when they had to carry huge um loads from one place to another , elephants were very useful . and they are found in um usually the warm countries . and um they are the biggest terrestrial animal . that 's what i know about them . so , that 's what i wanted to tell about elephants . user interface: so is this uh an indian or an african elephant , 'cause you have n't drawn the ears ? industrial designer: there are two kind of uh yeah , they are very different , indian and african elephants . so indian elephant is having one bump , i think , and the african have two . and then there 's a difference in the trunk of the animals , these elephants who are indian and so at some for some elephants it 's the trunk is having one do we have some message there ? project manager: yes . we have to i have to catch you , industrial designer: wind up project manager: sorry . we have to to go through the meeting . industrial designer: ? okay , some other time . user interface: okay . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: thank you . user interface: we can discuss that off-line . project manager: yeah we 'll discuss a f a fly or do we 'll do another meeting abo on elephants . industrial designer: thanks . project manager: so user interface: project manager: so another important part of the project is about money , uh and about so about finances . so we should target selling price of twenty-five euro for this remote control and uh we have um which which would generate a profit of of um fifty million euros , okay . and we should target the inter an international market . user interface: so could i just ask one question , um is this a stand-alone unit that we 're gon na be selling ? so it 's gon na be you already have a tv but you 're buying an extra remote control for it or something ? project manager: o this is the next topic we have to discuss exactly , user interface: okay , alright . project manager: so let 's go to it . so um we should decide which kind of remote control we want to uh we want to uh we want to go . should be should should it be um specific remote control to some specific device ? should it be a universal one ? and uh etcetera . so um so i 'm waiting for your for your inputs very quickly because we have only three three minutes to go . user interface: okay well , so , it seems the the first thing that they 've kinda specified is the price like based on how much profit we wan na make , which seems to a kind of a little strange if we do n't know what the the product is yet , but i guess if that 's if that 's the requirement that we need to to design the the product to actually fit that that price bracket so , i guess we 're gon na need to find out what 's actually you know , what people ar are willing to pay for um what kind of product they 're expecting for twenty-five euro project manager: okay . user interface: because it seems quite a lot for a remote control , project manager: okay i think this is more a job to our user interface: so it 's project manager: market person yeah . industrial designer: marketing person . user interface: yeah . project manager: so it should be the topic of maybe of the next meeting just to to have an overview of this and uh in which direction we should go . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so we need to close the meeting . uh we 'll have a new meeting soon and uh so the work every every of you ha have t d to do . so um you have to work on the on the working design , you have to uh work on the technical functions , and uh you have to work on us user requirements specs , alright ? marketing: yeah . project manager: um you will receive some information by emails , i as usual . thanks for coming today . user interface: okay . project manager: thanks . industrial designer: thanks . user interface: alright .

firstly , user interface drew a spider because he thought it was easy to draw in the corner of a whiteboard and spiders can move all about the web in two dimensions . marketing drew a friendly panther because it was fast and black , so it could hide very easily . and it looked powerful and strong . industrial designer drew an elephant because it 's peculiar about the way they walk . and they are the biggest terrestrial animal .

summarize the discussion about project finance . </s> project manager: okay . good morning everybody . industrial designer: good morning . project manager: oh , everybody is not ready . user interface: uh almost . project manager: alright . user interface: ready . project manager: okay , let 's go . so , we 're here today to to have our first kick-off meeting about uh this new project we 're going to tak to talk about in a few minutes . um so i will be uh sebastian the project manager . um you are the user interface: i 'm uh michael . i 'm the user interface designer . project manager: okay . marketing: hi i 'm guillermo . i 'm the marketing expert . industrial designer: and i am hemant , the industrial designer . project manager: okay , very good . thanks for being here . um so let 's have a look to the the agenda . so , we are going to go through this agenda uh and mainly first to uh to make to to be used to the tools uh available in this nice and smart meeting room we have here . um then we 'll go to uh the plans for project and have general discussions about it . so , the goal of this project is to uh developed a new remote control . um it should be original , trendy , and also user friendly . as usual we will follow the the project method um that we are using in the in our company . it is in three step as you know . first the functional design . the second 's a conceptual design , and then the detailed design . during each step uh of each design we wi you will work uh s separately , individually on uh your specific tasks and will m we will meet to um to discuss and take decisions about uh what you 've you 've you did and what uh we will do next . so first , we have to to train ourself with all the um the tools availables in the in this nice meeting room and uh particularly the the white board so uh we are going to go through the white board and take some um s some notes or do some drawings . so who want to start ? mister . user interface: ah well if no one else wants to , yeah . okay so , want me to draw my favourite animal . project manager: user interface: let 's see . well , i do n't really have a favourite animal , but um project manager: you have one in mind ? user interface: uh i think i have one in mind , so uh i 'm gon na about the uh spider because you can actually draw it pretty well in the corner of a white board . the spider has a spider lives in a web and uh it has eight legs , and uh it can move all about the web in two dimensions . unless it 's a three dimensional web which y they have sometimes . there are some spiders that live in like that have like uh kind of a a big ball of a of a web . and uh the other thing is some spiders can actually uh fly like uh they have uh they let out like uh a stream of like the web building material but it 's it acts like a parachute so they can actually kind of go and find new uh build a new web somewhere else . so i think they did this in uh in charlotte 's web that movie that little uh well it 's actually a book first but uh um at the end all the the spiders kinda flew away . project manager: okay . user interface: so , that 's my animal . project manager: th thank you . very interesting . guillermo you want to ? marketing: 'kay i dunno why , but when i was a child i i wanted to be a a panther project manager: marketing: not a pink panther , industrial designer: but do n't you think it 's very difficult to draw a panther ? marketing: or maybe yes . project manager: it would be very funny for us . marketing: uh yeah yeah . industrial designer: so bad i do n't like it . project manager: oh . industrial designer: marketing: okay it 's a friendly panther . user interface: industrial designer: user interface: maybe it 's happy 'cause it just ate someone . marketing: yeah maybe . user interface: marketing: um . actually , honestly i i i dunno what 's what 's his it 's be behaviour , i dunno if if it 's the male who who hunts or it 's the female uh , i i i have watched that lions di did n't hunt it 's the the female lions who who hunt , so but i like it because it 's fast , and it 's black as well , so it can he it can hide itself very easily and it 's it 's it looks like um powerful , strong , uh i dunno . i i watch a a film about a black panther when i was a child and i was in that age when everything was shocking me a lot . user interface: project manager: okay . thank you . marketing: okay . project manager: hemant . industrial designer: um sure . project manager: user interface: so you do n't like pink panthers ? marketing: i like it . project manager: industrial designer: oh yeah . thanks . this lapel is coming out once in a while . it 's not very strong . okay . so , not the favourite animal , but i think i 'll draw elephant . project manager: industrial designer: i 'll try to draw elephant . it 's a problem . okay , thanks . okay so , elephant goes like this , and then it has four feet . i do n't know whether there 's any dist there should be any distance or not , but i think this is the easiest . and then we have it 's trunk . and yep something like this . project manager: industrial designer: an eye , cute . marketing: industrial designer: yeah , so project manager: poor elephant . industrial designer: and sometimes they have a hump . it seems that uh elephants are pretty friendly and they they have one very important way a different way of walking . so when they walk , wherever they are going to put their first feet , the second feet will always be . when they 'll come to that position the second , the third feet will be there . that 's the way they walk . and that 's very peculiar about them . none of the other animals walk like this . and they are very useful to human beings . at least few few hundred years ago when there was no means of transportations or something , or when they had to carry huge um loads from one place to another , elephants were very useful . and they are found in um usually the warm countries . and um they are the biggest terrestrial animal . that 's what i know about them . so , that 's what i wanted to tell about elephants . user interface: so is this uh an indian or an african elephant , 'cause you have n't drawn the ears ? industrial designer: there are two kind of uh yeah , they are very different , indian and african elephants . so indian elephant is having one bump , i think , and the african have two . and then there 's a difference in the trunk of the animals , these elephants who are indian and so at some for some elephants it 's the trunk is having one do we have some message there ? project manager: yes . we have to i have to catch you , industrial designer: wind up project manager: sorry . we have to to go through the meeting . industrial designer: ? okay , some other time . user interface: okay . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: thank you . user interface: we can discuss that off-line . project manager: yeah we 'll discuss a f a fly or do we 'll do another meeting abo on elephants . industrial designer: thanks . project manager: so user interface: project manager: so another important part of the project is about money , uh and about so about finances . so we should target selling price of twenty-five euro for this remote control and uh we have um which which would generate a profit of of um fifty million euros , okay . and we should target the inter an international market . user interface: so could i just ask one question , um is this a stand-alone unit that we 're gon na be selling ? so it 's gon na be you already have a tv but you 're buying an extra remote control for it or something ? project manager: o this is the next topic we have to discuss exactly , user interface: okay , alright . project manager: so let 's go to it . so um we should decide which kind of remote control we want to uh we want to uh we want to go . should be should should it be um specific remote control to some specific device ? should it be a universal one ? and uh etcetera . so um so i 'm waiting for your for your inputs very quickly because we have only three three minutes to go . user interface: okay well , so , it seems the the first thing that they 've kinda specified is the price like based on how much profit we wan na make , which seems to a kind of a little strange if we do n't know what the the product is yet , but i guess if that 's if that 's the requirement that we need to to design the the product to actually fit that that price bracket so , i guess we 're gon na need to find out what 's actually you know , what people ar are willing to pay for um what kind of product they 're expecting for twenty-five euro project manager: okay . user interface: because it seems quite a lot for a remote control , project manager: okay i think this is more a job to our user interface: so it 's project manager: market person yeah . industrial designer: marketing person . user interface: yeah . project manager: so it should be the topic of maybe of the next meeting just to to have an overview of this and uh in which direction we should go . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so we need to close the meeting . uh we 'll have a new meeting soon and uh so the work every every of you ha have t d to do . so um you have to work on the on the working design , you have to uh work on the technical functions , and uh you have to work on us user requirements specs , alright ? marketing: yeah . project manager: um you will receive some information by emails , i as usual . thanks for coming today . user interface: okay . project manager: thanks . industrial designer: thanks . user interface: alright .

project manager mentioned that they should target a selling price of twenty-five euro for this remote control which would generate a profit of fifty million euros . and they should target the international market . user interface supplemented that they need to find out what people are willing to pay for and what kind of product they 're expecting for twenty-five euro .

what did the group think of drawing a panther ? </s> project manager: okay . good morning everybody . industrial designer: good morning . project manager: oh , everybody is not ready . user interface: uh almost . project manager: alright . user interface: ready . project manager: okay , let 's go . so , we 're here today to to have our first kick-off meeting about uh this new project we 're going to tak to talk about in a few minutes . um so i will be uh sebastian the project manager . um you are the user interface: i 'm uh michael . i 'm the user interface designer . project manager: okay . marketing: hi i 'm guillermo . i 'm the marketing expert . industrial designer: and i am hemant , the industrial designer . project manager: okay , very good . thanks for being here . um so let 's have a look to the the agenda . so , we are going to go through this agenda uh and mainly first to uh to make to to be used to the tools uh available in this nice and smart meeting room we have here . um then we 'll go to uh the plans for project and have general discussions about it . so , the goal of this project is to uh developed a new remote control . um it should be original , trendy , and also user friendly . as usual we will follow the the project method um that we are using in the in our company . it is in three step as you know . first the functional design . the second 's a conceptual design , and then the detailed design . during each step uh of each design we wi you will work uh s separately , individually on uh your specific tasks and will m we will meet to um to discuss and take decisions about uh what you 've you 've you did and what uh we will do next . so first , we have to to train ourself with all the um the tools availables in the in this nice meeting room and uh particularly the the white board so uh we are going to go through the white board and take some um s some notes or do some drawings . so who want to start ? mister . user interface: ah well if no one else wants to , yeah . okay so , want me to draw my favourite animal . project manager: user interface: let 's see . well , i do n't really have a favourite animal , but um project manager: you have one in mind ? user interface: uh i think i have one in mind , so uh i 'm gon na about the uh spider because you can actually draw it pretty well in the corner of a white board . the spider has a spider lives in a web and uh it has eight legs , and uh it can move all about the web in two dimensions . unless it 's a three dimensional web which y they have sometimes . there are some spiders that live in like that have like uh kind of a a big ball of a of a web . and uh the other thing is some spiders can actually uh fly like uh they have uh they let out like uh a stream of like the web building material but it 's it acts like a parachute so they can actually kind of go and find new uh build a new web somewhere else . so i think they did this in uh in charlotte 's web that movie that little uh well it 's actually a book first but uh um at the end all the the spiders kinda flew away . project manager: okay . user interface: so , that 's my animal . project manager: th thank you . very interesting . guillermo you want to ? marketing: 'kay i dunno why , but when i was a child i i wanted to be a a panther project manager: marketing: not a pink panther , industrial designer: but do n't you think it 's very difficult to draw a panther ? marketing: or maybe yes . project manager: it would be very funny for us . marketing: uh yeah yeah . industrial designer: so bad i do n't like it . project manager: oh . industrial designer: marketing: okay it 's a friendly panther . user interface: industrial designer: user interface: maybe it 's happy 'cause it just ate someone . marketing: yeah maybe . user interface: marketing: um . actually , honestly i i i dunno what 's what 's his it 's be behaviour , i dunno if if it 's the male who who hunts or it 's the female uh , i i i have watched that lions di did n't hunt it 's the the female lions who who hunt , so but i like it because it 's fast , and it 's black as well , so it can he it can hide itself very easily and it 's it 's it looks like um powerful , strong , uh i dunno . i i watch a a film about a black panther when i was a child and i was in that age when everything was shocking me a lot . user interface: project manager: okay . thank you . marketing: okay . project manager: hemant . industrial designer: um sure . project manager: user interface: so you do n't like pink panthers ? marketing: i like it . project manager: industrial designer: oh yeah . thanks . this lapel is coming out once in a while . it 's not very strong . okay . so , not the favourite animal , but i think i 'll draw elephant . project manager: industrial designer: i 'll try to draw elephant . it 's a problem . okay , thanks . okay so , elephant goes like this , and then it has four feet . i do n't know whether there 's any dist there should be any distance or not , but i think this is the easiest . and then we have it 's trunk . and yep something like this . project manager: industrial designer: an eye , cute . marketing: industrial designer: yeah , so project manager: poor elephant . industrial designer: and sometimes they have a hump . it seems that uh elephants are pretty friendly and they they have one very important way a different way of walking . so when they walk , wherever they are going to put their first feet , the second feet will always be . when they 'll come to that position the second , the third feet will be there . that 's the way they walk . and that 's very peculiar about them . none of the other animals walk like this . and they are very useful to human beings . at least few few hundred years ago when there was no means of transportations or something , or when they had to carry huge um loads from one place to another , elephants were very useful . and they are found in um usually the warm countries . and um they are the biggest terrestrial animal . that 's what i know about them . so , that 's what i wanted to tell about elephants . user interface: so is this uh an indian or an african elephant , 'cause you have n't drawn the ears ? industrial designer: there are two kind of uh yeah , they are very different , indian and african elephants . so indian elephant is having one bump , i think , and the african have two . and then there 's a difference in the trunk of the animals , these elephants who are indian and so at some for some elephants it 's the trunk is having one do we have some message there ? project manager: yes . we have to i have to catch you , industrial designer: wind up project manager: sorry . we have to to go through the meeting . industrial designer: ? okay , some other time . user interface: okay . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: thank you . user interface: we can discuss that off-line . project manager: yeah we 'll discuss a f a fly or do we 'll do another meeting abo on elephants . industrial designer: thanks . project manager: so user interface: project manager: so another important part of the project is about money , uh and about so about finances . so we should target selling price of twenty-five euro for this remote control and uh we have um which which would generate a profit of of um fifty million euros , okay . and we should target the inter an international market . user interface: so could i just ask one question , um is this a stand-alone unit that we 're gon na be selling ? so it 's gon na be you already have a tv but you 're buying an extra remote control for it or something ? project manager: o this is the next topic we have to discuss exactly , user interface: okay , alright . project manager: so let 's go to it . so um we should decide which kind of remote control we want to uh we want to uh we want to go . should be should should it be um specific remote control to some specific device ? should it be a universal one ? and uh etcetera . so um so i 'm waiting for your for your inputs very quickly because we have only three three minutes to go . user interface: okay well , so , it seems the the first thing that they 've kinda specified is the price like based on how much profit we wan na make , which seems to a kind of a little strange if we do n't know what the the product is yet , but i guess if that 's if that 's the requirement that we need to to design the the product to actually fit that that price bracket so , i guess we 're gon na need to find out what 's actually you know , what people ar are willing to pay for um what kind of product they 're expecting for twenty-five euro project manager: okay . user interface: because it seems quite a lot for a remote control , project manager: okay i think this is more a job to our user interface: so it 's project manager: market person yeah . industrial designer: marketing person . user interface: yeah . project manager: so it should be the topic of maybe of the next meeting just to to have an overview of this and uh in which direction we should go . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so we need to close the meeting . uh we 'll have a new meeting soon and uh so the work every every of you ha have t d to do . so um you have to work on the on the working design , you have to uh work on the technical functions , and uh you have to work on us user requirements specs , alright ? marketing: yeah . project manager: um you will receive some information by emails , i as usual . thanks for coming today . user interface: okay . project manager: thanks . industrial designer: thanks . user interface: alright .

marketing said when he was a child , he wanted to be a panther . industrial designer thought it would be difficult to draw a panther . project manager thought it would be very funny for them to see marketing drawing a panther but industrial designer did n't like it . so marketing said it was gon na be a friendly panther . user interface supplemented that maybe it was happy because it just ate someone .

why did industrial designer think that there were some messages when industrial designer was drawing the elephant ? </s> project manager: okay . good morning everybody . industrial designer: good morning . project manager: oh , everybody is not ready . user interface: uh almost . project manager: alright . user interface: ready . project manager: okay , let 's go . so , we 're here today to to have our first kick-off meeting about uh this new project we 're going to tak to talk about in a few minutes . um so i will be uh sebastian the project manager . um you are the user interface: i 'm uh michael . i 'm the user interface designer . project manager: okay . marketing: hi i 'm guillermo . i 'm the marketing expert . industrial designer: and i am hemant , the industrial designer . project manager: okay , very good . thanks for being here . um so let 's have a look to the the agenda . so , we are going to go through this agenda uh and mainly first to uh to make to to be used to the tools uh available in this nice and smart meeting room we have here . um then we 'll go to uh the plans for project and have general discussions about it . so , the goal of this project is to uh developed a new remote control . um it should be original , trendy , and also user friendly . as usual we will follow the the project method um that we are using in the in our company . it is in three step as you know . first the functional design . the second 's a conceptual design , and then the detailed design . during each step uh of each design we wi you will work uh s separately , individually on uh your specific tasks and will m we will meet to um to discuss and take decisions about uh what you 've you 've you did and what uh we will do next . so first , we have to to train ourself with all the um the tools availables in the in this nice meeting room and uh particularly the the white board so uh we are going to go through the white board and take some um s some notes or do some drawings . so who want to start ? mister . user interface: ah well if no one else wants to , yeah . okay so , want me to draw my favourite animal . project manager: user interface: let 's see . well , i do n't really have a favourite animal , but um project manager: you have one in mind ? user interface: uh i think i have one in mind , so uh i 'm gon na about the uh spider because you can actually draw it pretty well in the corner of a white board . the spider has a spider lives in a web and uh it has eight legs , and uh it can move all about the web in two dimensions . unless it 's a three dimensional web which y they have sometimes . there are some spiders that live in like that have like uh kind of a a big ball of a of a web . and uh the other thing is some spiders can actually uh fly like uh they have uh they let out like uh a stream of like the web building material but it 's it acts like a parachute so they can actually kind of go and find new uh build a new web somewhere else . so i think they did this in uh in charlotte 's web that movie that little uh well it 's actually a book first but uh um at the end all the the spiders kinda flew away . project manager: okay . user interface: so , that 's my animal . project manager: th thank you . very interesting . guillermo you want to ? marketing: 'kay i dunno why , but when i was a child i i wanted to be a a panther project manager: marketing: not a pink panther , industrial designer: but do n't you think it 's very difficult to draw a panther ? marketing: or maybe yes . project manager: it would be very funny for us . marketing: uh yeah yeah . industrial designer: so bad i do n't like it . project manager: oh . industrial designer: marketing: okay it 's a friendly panther . user interface: industrial designer: user interface: maybe it 's happy 'cause it just ate someone . marketing: yeah maybe . user interface: marketing: um . actually , honestly i i i dunno what 's what 's his it 's be behaviour , i dunno if if it 's the male who who hunts or it 's the female uh , i i i have watched that lions di did n't hunt it 's the the female lions who who hunt , so but i like it because it 's fast , and it 's black as well , so it can he it can hide itself very easily and it 's it 's it looks like um powerful , strong , uh i dunno . i i watch a a film about a black panther when i was a child and i was in that age when everything was shocking me a lot . user interface: project manager: okay . thank you . marketing: okay . project manager: hemant . industrial designer: um sure . project manager: user interface: so you do n't like pink panthers ? marketing: i like it . project manager: industrial designer: oh yeah . thanks . this lapel is coming out once in a while . it 's not very strong . okay . so , not the favourite animal , but i think i 'll draw elephant . project manager: industrial designer: i 'll try to draw elephant . it 's a problem . okay , thanks . okay so , elephant goes like this , and then it has four feet . i do n't know whether there 's any dist there should be any distance or not , but i think this is the easiest . and then we have it 's trunk . and yep something like this . project manager: industrial designer: an eye , cute . marketing: industrial designer: yeah , so project manager: poor elephant . industrial designer: and sometimes they have a hump . it seems that uh elephants are pretty friendly and they they have one very important way a different way of walking . so when they walk , wherever they are going to put their first feet , the second feet will always be . when they 'll come to that position the second , the third feet will be there . that 's the way they walk . and that 's very peculiar about them . none of the other animals walk like this . and they are very useful to human beings . at least few few hundred years ago when there was no means of transportations or something , or when they had to carry huge um loads from one place to another , elephants were very useful . and they are found in um usually the warm countries . and um they are the biggest terrestrial animal . that 's what i know about them . so , that 's what i wanted to tell about elephants . user interface: so is this uh an indian or an african elephant , 'cause you have n't drawn the ears ? industrial designer: there are two kind of uh yeah , they are very different , indian and african elephants . so indian elephant is having one bump , i think , and the african have two . and then there 's a difference in the trunk of the animals , these elephants who are indian and so at some for some elephants it 's the trunk is having one do we have some message there ? project manager: yes . we have to i have to catch you , industrial designer: wind up project manager: sorry . we have to to go through the meeting . industrial designer: ? okay , some other time . user interface: okay . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: thank you . user interface: we can discuss that off-line . project manager: yeah we 'll discuss a f a fly or do we 'll do another meeting abo on elephants . industrial designer: thanks . project manager: so user interface: project manager: so another important part of the project is about money , uh and about so about finances . so we should target selling price of twenty-five euro for this remote control and uh we have um which which would generate a profit of of um fifty million euros , okay . and we should target the inter an international market . user interface: so could i just ask one question , um is this a stand-alone unit that we 're gon na be selling ? so it 's gon na be you already have a tv but you 're buying an extra remote control for it or something ? project manager: o this is the next topic we have to discuss exactly , user interface: okay , alright . project manager: so let 's go to it . so um we should decide which kind of remote control we want to uh we want to uh we want to go . should be should should it be um specific remote control to some specific device ? should it be a universal one ? and uh etcetera . so um so i 'm waiting for your for your inputs very quickly because we have only three three minutes to go . user interface: okay well , so , it seems the the first thing that they 've kinda specified is the price like based on how much profit we wan na make , which seems to a kind of a little strange if we do n't know what the the product is yet , but i guess if that 's if that 's the requirement that we need to to design the the product to actually fit that that price bracket so , i guess we 're gon na need to find out what 's actually you know , what people ar are willing to pay for um what kind of product they 're expecting for twenty-five euro project manager: okay . user interface: because it seems quite a lot for a remote control , project manager: okay i think this is more a job to our user interface: so it 's project manager: market person yeah . industrial designer: marketing person . user interface: yeah . project manager: so it should be the topic of maybe of the next meeting just to to have an overview of this and uh in which direction we should go . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so we need to close the meeting . uh we 'll have a new meeting soon and uh so the work every every of you ha have t d to do . so um you have to work on the on the working design , you have to uh work on the technical functions , and uh you have to work on us user requirements specs , alright ? marketing: yeah . project manager: um you will receive some information by emails , i as usual . thanks for coming today . user interface: okay . project manager: thanks . industrial designer: thanks . user interface: alright .

industrial designer gave a very detailed introduction to his drawing of an elephant , including the difference between indian and african elephants . so project manager interrupted him and told group mates they would move on to the next topic because they had limited time for discussion . in addition , project manager said there would be an update meeting about elephants next time .

why did project manager say that money was an important part of the project ? </s> project manager: okay . good morning everybody . industrial designer: good morning . project manager: oh , everybody is not ready . user interface: uh almost . project manager: alright . user interface: ready . project manager: okay , let 's go . so , we 're here today to to have our first kick-off meeting about uh this new project we 're going to tak to talk about in a few minutes . um so i will be uh sebastian the project manager . um you are the user interface: i 'm uh michael . i 'm the user interface designer . project manager: okay . marketing: hi i 'm guillermo . i 'm the marketing expert . industrial designer: and i am hemant , the industrial designer . project manager: okay , very good . thanks for being here . um so let 's have a look to the the agenda . so , we are going to go through this agenda uh and mainly first to uh to make to to be used to the tools uh available in this nice and smart meeting room we have here . um then we 'll go to uh the plans for project and have general discussions about it . so , the goal of this project is to uh developed a new remote control . um it should be original , trendy , and also user friendly . as usual we will follow the the project method um that we are using in the in our company . it is in three step as you know . first the functional design . the second 's a conceptual design , and then the detailed design . during each step uh of each design we wi you will work uh s separately , individually on uh your specific tasks and will m we will meet to um to discuss and take decisions about uh what you 've you 've you did and what uh we will do next . so first , we have to to train ourself with all the um the tools availables in the in this nice meeting room and uh particularly the the white board so uh we are going to go through the white board and take some um s some notes or do some drawings . so who want to start ? mister . user interface: ah well if no one else wants to , yeah . okay so , want me to draw my favourite animal . project manager: user interface: let 's see . well , i do n't really have a favourite animal , but um project manager: you have one in mind ? user interface: uh i think i have one in mind , so uh i 'm gon na about the uh spider because you can actually draw it pretty well in the corner of a white board . the spider has a spider lives in a web and uh it has eight legs , and uh it can move all about the web in two dimensions . unless it 's a three dimensional web which y they have sometimes . there are some spiders that live in like that have like uh kind of a a big ball of a of a web . and uh the other thing is some spiders can actually uh fly like uh they have uh they let out like uh a stream of like the web building material but it 's it acts like a parachute so they can actually kind of go and find new uh build a new web somewhere else . so i think they did this in uh in charlotte 's web that movie that little uh well it 's actually a book first but uh um at the end all the the spiders kinda flew away . project manager: okay . user interface: so , that 's my animal . project manager: th thank you . very interesting . guillermo you want to ? marketing: 'kay i dunno why , but when i was a child i i wanted to be a a panther project manager: marketing: not a pink panther , industrial designer: but do n't you think it 's very difficult to draw a panther ? marketing: or maybe yes . project manager: it would be very funny for us . marketing: uh yeah yeah . industrial designer: so bad i do n't like it . project manager: oh . industrial designer: marketing: okay it 's a friendly panther . user interface: industrial designer: user interface: maybe it 's happy 'cause it just ate someone . marketing: yeah maybe . user interface: marketing: um . actually , honestly i i i dunno what 's what 's his it 's be behaviour , i dunno if if it 's the male who who hunts or it 's the female uh , i i i have watched that lions di did n't hunt it 's the the female lions who who hunt , so but i like it because it 's fast , and it 's black as well , so it can he it can hide itself very easily and it 's it 's it looks like um powerful , strong , uh i dunno . i i watch a a film about a black panther when i was a child and i was in that age when everything was shocking me a lot . user interface: project manager: okay . thank you . marketing: okay . project manager: hemant . industrial designer: um sure . project manager: user interface: so you do n't like pink panthers ? marketing: i like it . project manager: industrial designer: oh yeah . thanks . this lapel is coming out once in a while . it 's not very strong . okay . so , not the favourite animal , but i think i 'll draw elephant . project manager: industrial designer: i 'll try to draw elephant . it 's a problem . okay , thanks . okay so , elephant goes like this , and then it has four feet . i do n't know whether there 's any dist there should be any distance or not , but i think this is the easiest . and then we have it 's trunk . and yep something like this . project manager: industrial designer: an eye , cute . marketing: industrial designer: yeah , so project manager: poor elephant . industrial designer: and sometimes they have a hump . it seems that uh elephants are pretty friendly and they they have one very important way a different way of walking . so when they walk , wherever they are going to put their first feet , the second feet will always be . when they 'll come to that position the second , the third feet will be there . that 's the way they walk . and that 's very peculiar about them . none of the other animals walk like this . and they are very useful to human beings . at least few few hundred years ago when there was no means of transportations or something , or when they had to carry huge um loads from one place to another , elephants were very useful . and they are found in um usually the warm countries . and um they are the biggest terrestrial animal . that 's what i know about them . so , that 's what i wanted to tell about elephants . user interface: so is this uh an indian or an african elephant , 'cause you have n't drawn the ears ? industrial designer: there are two kind of uh yeah , they are very different , indian and african elephants . so indian elephant is having one bump , i think , and the african have two . and then there 's a difference in the trunk of the animals , these elephants who are indian and so at some for some elephants it 's the trunk is having one do we have some message there ? project manager: yes . we have to i have to catch you , industrial designer: wind up project manager: sorry . we have to to go through the meeting . industrial designer: ? okay , some other time . user interface: okay . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: thank you . user interface: we can discuss that off-line . project manager: yeah we 'll discuss a f a fly or do we 'll do another meeting abo on elephants . industrial designer: thanks . project manager: so user interface: project manager: so another important part of the project is about money , uh and about so about finances . so we should target selling price of twenty-five euro for this remote control and uh we have um which which would generate a profit of of um fifty million euros , okay . and we should target the inter an international market . user interface: so could i just ask one question , um is this a stand-alone unit that we 're gon na be selling ? so it 's gon na be you already have a tv but you 're buying an extra remote control for it or something ? project manager: o this is the next topic we have to discuss exactly , user interface: okay , alright . project manager: so let 's go to it . so um we should decide which kind of remote control we want to uh we want to uh we want to go . should be should should it be um specific remote control to some specific device ? should it be a universal one ? and uh etcetera . so um so i 'm waiting for your for your inputs very quickly because we have only three three minutes to go . user interface: okay well , so , it seems the the first thing that they 've kinda specified is the price like based on how much profit we wan na make , which seems to a kind of a little strange if we do n't know what the the product is yet , but i guess if that 's if that 's the requirement that we need to to design the the product to actually fit that that price bracket so , i guess we 're gon na need to find out what 's actually you know , what people ar are willing to pay for um what kind of product they 're expecting for twenty-five euro project manager: okay . user interface: because it seems quite a lot for a remote control , project manager: okay i think this is more a job to our user interface: so it 's project manager: market person yeah . industrial designer: marketing person . user interface: yeah . project manager: so it should be the topic of maybe of the next meeting just to to have an overview of this and uh in which direction we should go . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so we need to close the meeting . uh we 'll have a new meeting soon and uh so the work every every of you ha have t d to do . so um you have to work on the on the working design , you have to uh work on the technical functions , and uh you have to work on us user requirements specs , alright ? marketing: yeah . project manager: um you will receive some information by emails , i as usual . thanks for coming today . user interface: okay . project manager: thanks . industrial designer: thanks . user interface: alright .

user interface asked a question that whether it would be a stand-alone unit that they are going to be selling . so project manager answered that they should decide which kind of remote control they want to go , if it should be a specific remote control to some specific device , or if it should be a universal one . user interface responded that they need to design the product to fit the expecting twenty-five euro based on the requirement . project manager agreed and invited group mates to input ideas in the next meeting .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> industrial designer: . user interface: hello . 'kay . project manager: you all saw the newsflash ? industrial designer: it 's project manager: or you got the same message ? marketing: yeah i i just saw it one minute ago . project manager: yeah sorry . industrial designer: i do n't know . marketing: when i uh industrial designer: i did n't see it yet i think . user interface: newsflash ? d did i miss something ? marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . yeah i received an email so i thought i i ca n't mail you so i thought i 'd just drop it in the folder , but marketing: yeah pretty much . industrial designer: hey what 's wrong with my computer ? user interface: okay . project manager: is it unlocked ? user interface: no . industrial designer: . marketing: mm . yeah that 's my presentation . project manager: woah . i uh kind of opened it . user interface: mm . industrial designer: huh ? marketing: mm ? project manager: uh industrial designer: what the marketing: oh right . user interface: i think you have to uh change your desktop uh project manager: okay . marketing: user interface: size . marketing: ooh . project manager: 'kay . everybody ready ? industrial designer: not really . marketing: well industrial designer: sorry . project manager: no no no . yes yes yes . user interface: computer is uh not functioning ? marketing: alright . project manager: okay . industrial designer: okay . where do i find this ? i 'm not so g display huh ? user interface: uh display . marketing: user interface: and then uh settings ? industrial designer: appearance ? marketing: huh . user interface: mm i 'm not sure i . marketing: you read the newsflash ? project manager: 'kay . can we get started user interface: no . industrial designer: no what was it about ? marketing: hmm . project manager: or is there some pressing issue ? industrial designer: yeah my computer is not functioning properly . project manager: oh no pressing . user interface: marketing: project manager: did you plug in the power cable when you come back ? industrial designer: yeah yeah . no but my screen is reduced in size . project manager: yeah . that 's difficult . yeah . user interface: marketing: what ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: feedback . marketing: hmm . user interface: okay . project manager: industrial designer: okay . marketing: alt delete . project manager: yeah . user interface: format . project manager: format save . marketing: . so it does n't draw the attention away . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: this is dreadful . user interface: i made uh uh my own map . project manager: oh yeah sure . industrial designer: no not this , but the task . user interface: it 's a project manager: you have playstation also ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . no that 's okay . no i just flapped it , closed it , took it here and then this happened . ah . uh where was it ? in settings ? okay . alright . thank you . project manager: huh . industrial designer: do you guys like your tasks ? user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i spent a lot of time thinking about what i was gon na do and then a couple of minutes before this i get my function you know the information that i need . user interface: yeah wa wa you actually yeah . but it it 's not clear what you have to to to type uh type in your presentation . industrial designer: so frustrating . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so marketing: yeah . i i had a whole idea and then just was typing it and then oh . i have to do that so switch . industrial designer: yeah yeah exactly . this presentation is mainly based on my own ideas 'cause i had n't time to intergrate tha the information yet so user interface: yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: really annoying . project manager: okay . so there we are again . marketing: by your humble p_m_ . project manager: yeah . marketing: project manager: okay this is the agenda . um we have three presentations , i heard . marketing: user interface: really . project manager: yeah really . so who wants to start ? marketing: yeah that 's fine . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we have to start it right away ? project manager: yeah . uh this is you ? marketing: functional ? yeah functional requirements . project manager: 'kay . marketing: alright . i 'm gon na talk about functional requirements . um well uh some research has be done uh has been done . uh observing of one hundred uh subjects in the usability lab using a remote control . uh and they also filled in a questionnaire . the findings were um , well you can see them for yourself . they disliked the look-and-feel of current remotes controls . users think they 're ugly . um they do not match the the operating behaviour of the users . so they they d they do n't match what they want to have on it . um they are often lost somewhere in the room . um it takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control . and they 're bad for r_s_i_ . i do n't know uh how a user can reach that but okay . um industrial designer: ts marketing: there is also uh was also some research on uh the most relevant and and and irrelevant uh f functions . uh most irrelevant and less used were audio settings , mono , stereo , uh pitch , bass . um screen settings for brightness and colour and stuff like that . um but they are used . i mean the industrial designer: so they do need to be in the project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah they do need to be on the on the remote control . industrial designer: alright . marketing: i mean if you ca n't control the the sound settings i mean if you dislike a very uh loud bass or something , you you need to change that . project manager: often . marketing: so um yeah we have to . industrial designer: by the way my tv does n't have an equ equaliser but marketing: we c we c yeah i mean w we ca n't project manager: next generation does . industrial designer: okay . marketing: my my tv has , industrial designer: no . alright . marketing: but we we can leave them uh away . uh most relevant , uh most used functions , uh they speak for themselves i guess . uh power button , uh channel , volume selection . uh teletext but we can skip that because i saw the newsflash , and teletext is so outdated that it it 's i should not be used uh any more in the future . project manager: n not used anymore . marketing: so forget this one . user interface: okay . marketing: uh channel settings , so for programming uh your channels in in the right order . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: by the way where did you guys get that newsflash from ? user interface: yeah . i was wondering uh industrial designer: i did n't get anything . marketing: yeah , on on the project uh project manager: yeah . not by mail . i receiv the mail but you do n't . so user interface: but you you 've got more information than uh . marketing: no so it 's a text file n in the project folder . so teletext can be skipped . project manager: that 's in the presentation , so industrial designer: alright . marketing: um there was some research on new features in a remote control . uh about an lcd screen uh and speech recognition . well we got an update for the for the audience . or the the the targeted group . so it 's above forty i guess . project manager: uh below i believe . marketing: the new product ? or below project manager: yeah below forty . marketing: because that 's pretty relevant . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: i thought i read a project manager: our current customers are in the age group forty plus . marketing: yeah ? project manager: and the new product should reach new markets , which is the customers below forty . marketing: below ? okay well user interface: but where did you get uh that information ? project manager: that 's in a newsflash . marketing: that 's that 's in the newsfla project manager: user interface: okay . marketing: okay that 's a good to know . um because you see see a clear distinction between the age groups , concerning the features . user interface: yeah . marketing: i mean uh above forty people are not so interested uh not so interested in a screen or speech recognition . uh but below that age they uh they pretty much are . so i think we can build that in . um yeah well we can skip this part as well , because i thought i read above forty so we could skip the features , but we just have to build them in because uh they find it very interesting . um well we have to keep all the classic functions but make the buttons as user-friendly as possible . um and and also there 's so not only the design of the bus uh buttons but o how you can push them , and stuff like that . so the physical uh aspect of it . um and i think and certainly for for the for the lower age groups , uh nice design , which uh does not make the remote control in your room . user interface: yeah . marketing: it 's it 's actually a part of your interior , of of your design in your room . so it 's the people can say , well what 's that , well that 's my remote control , so it 's d it has to look nice and feel nice , and and have all the functions that uh project manager: yeah . but it also needs to have corporate identity . marketing: yeah so the the logo has to be project manager: present and the colours . marketing: uh present yeah , and the colours as well . project manager: so we ca n't change much of that . industrial designer: do we have uh yeah . marketing: yeah so but i i do n't think that 's that 's a problem because the thing has to have a colour anyway , and most of the times there is a brand present on it . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . yeah . yeah . marketing: so i think that 's not gon na gon na affect it very uh very much . project manager: okay . marketing: well that are the the consequences uh on a marketing uh part . project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: alright . marketing: yes . user interface: okay . project manager: it 's open already so you can use to marketing: . project manager: find yours . user interface: mm . it 's project manager: f_ five . user interface: f_ five . okay . project manager: go jurgen . user interface: oh . what is this ? marketing: user interface: oh no . industrial designer: user interface: how do i uh project manager: you pressed alt f_ four ? user interface: no no no . i pressed the mouse button . project manager: oh great . user interface: industrial designer: it 's th that 's the self-destruct button . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . okay . project manager: uh maybe you can do it from your computer so talk us through it . user interface: okay . um if you all go stand around uh marketing: yeah . just yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: computer industrial designer: alright . marketing: sure . user interface: um project manager: that 's nice . user interface: no . project manager: f_ five . yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: alright . user interface: i uh had uh two examples . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um this one is the the yeah the advanced one with a lot of options and functions and buttons . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: this the easy one marketing: yeah . user interface: i think we have to to combine them . and uh yeah merge the best functions of all examples . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . user interface: um but yeah the the age is uh under forty ? project manager: the mm yeah . marketing: yeah and and and marketing research stated that that that kind of users are not afraid of of a lot of functions . user interface: so we okay so so we have the option for more functions . marketing: so not not too much but yeah . user interface: um yeah . industrial designer: and we do have to integrate the screen and the the speech marketing: and the speech recognition yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: alright . user interface: uh yeah this this one we can remove for kids . it 's just only for adults so uh we can uh use some advanced options . but marketing: yeah from age of sixteen so yeah . user interface: yeah but i prefer we we uh use the the basic options uh yeah . we have to to make them very easy so for just uh zapping around the channels you can just push one button . marketing: mm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: but if you want to to use your your video recorder or something else , you should use use an uh an advanced option . marketing: yeah but uh the the newsflash also stated that it should control only one device , only your television . user interface: okay one device . project manager: yeah . so n it 's very easy . user interface: okay . i did n't see . marketing: so w project manager: now yeah it 's okay . user interface: okay and i also uh yeah . w yeah . marketing: so there are not extra options in this case , but uh project manager: okay . user interface: we have to make it fashionable . like you uh said uh before . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: uh yeah the basic functions . um yeah only use a extra function if they are really needed . project manager: yeah so maybe you can hide them or something . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah well what what we can do with the screen is is all the the configuration options , you can put that in the screen . project manager: yeah you make a screen menu or something . marketing: and the and the yeah screen menu to to to uh to do that , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: and then the basic function just on the device itself . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so it looks very simple and all the advanced features are hidden in the screen , uh with a clear menu . project manager: yeah and the other oth other uh functionality is the screen . user interface: yeah . project manager: what does the screen do ? user interface: did i uh industrial designer: alright . marketing: uh . what are wh project manager: yeah . it 's low power . user interface: did i break it ? marketing: what . project manager: so what does the screen do ? they said they needed it but what does it do ? what do they want with the screen ? user interface: for for the advanced functions i think . project manager: yeah that 's what we make it up . marketing: yeah well it yeah it did n't project manager: so but what did the marketing marketing: it did n't say what they want to do with the screen . project manager: no . marketing: well i , my guess is it 's it 's pretty handy for advanced uh advanced functions . project manager: yeah okay it 's handy . with no predefined uh user interface: like searching for channels and industrial designer: ah look . marketing: yeah searching for channels , programming them . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we have your uh oh never mind . project manager: we 're back online . user interface: okay . that 's uh i 'm al i 'm almost finished so project manager: okay . user interface: um the we have to to to watch out for the i if we make it f very fashionable , it it the functional functionality will go down . so we have to make uh a compromise between functionality and fashional fashionable project manager: mm-hmm . content and form . user interface: yeah content and form . industrial designer: . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: now that that was uh was the end . project manager: that was the end . okay . user interface: yes . industrial designer: okay . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: well my presentation is a bit uh sucky . marketing: well you can improvise right ? project manager: uh which one is it ? technical functions ? industrial designer: yeah a little bit . project manager: this one ? industrial designer: uh no . no no . project manager: functional requirements ? industrial designer: yeah i think that would be it then . project manager: no . user interface: project manager: you did n't put it in ? or industrial designer: i have no idea . marketing: so we we can go for industrial designer: that w . project manager: it 's not really english . industrial designer: let me check . i know . project manager: uh kick off . oh working design i got it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so we can go for the look-and-feel of the the left example , and then a screen on top of it . project manager: here you go . industrial designer: alright how do i uh skip pages ? project manager: just uh press uh yeah . yeah . industrial designer: the keys yeah ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: alright . um yeah well i was working on this before i got my information . so i was just working off the top of my head and using my colin common knowledge about uh remote controls . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: industrial designer: and well the info on the website which came too late . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um so i did n't really know what kind of functions we had to put into it yet . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so uh uh this is basically an overview of what we discussed in our last uh meeting . those were my uh starting points . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh i was working on a s yeah on a schedule , and i was supposed to do it like this . but um yeah then uh the information came and it was kind of exact with all the steps in the remote control that i had to follow , so i was trying to organise them for myself . project manager: marketing: project manager: mm . industrial designer: and then make the project manager: design yeah . industrial designer: the design , a the actual design , marketing: design ? yeah . industrial designer: but i never came around to do that . so i 'm not really sure what i 'm supposed to say about it . marketing: okay . industrial designer: i mean everything speaks for itself i guess . mean you press a button um the it tru goes , it sends a signal to a chip , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: which uh translates it into infrared signal of certin spatial frequencies . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah frequency . yeah . industrial designer: and uh or temporal fr frequencies actually . and then uh through a uh transformer , it the signal gets boosted and then sent to the to the receiver on the tv project manager: yeah decoder . industrial designer: and the tv will translate it into a function . um yeah well this was actually all i got around to do . project manager: blank . yeah okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i mean i dunno if i 'm too slow for this stuff , but uh project manager: work harder . marketing: user interface: okay shou should we make a list of the of all the functions we want uh marketing: industrial designer: yeah . whatever . project manager: yeah . uh marketing: yeah we want to incorporate in uh into it . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'kay . um for those that did n't see yet um the basic new requirements of the management were no teletext , only for tv . uh it should be designed for a use g uh group below forty , but i do n't think it 's w wrong if we can uh target the current customer group as well . marketing: mm . project manager: and uh the corporate identity should be clear in the design of the remote control . and we have to decide on the functions , and on the , let 's see what was it , uh the target group . we have to make be clear what that is . marketing: group of users , or project manager: yeah users . marketing: because it says below forty i mean . project manager: yeah so i think it 's easy but marketing: i guess that 's that 's the tar yeah uh or male and female user interface: but uh it 's it 's also for children or just uh project manager: yeah it 's below forty so we can decide where to marketing: uh six the marketing research started on s on the age of sixteen . user interface: okay . okay . marketing: sixteen to twenty five , twenty five to thirty five , thirty five to forty five , something like that . project manager: okay . so below forty is okay . marketing: so um project manager: but we need an lower level which to s uh focus . marketing: how do you mean ? project manager: so is it from sixteen to forty ? is it from twenty to forty ? is it from thirty ? marketing: uh sixteen to forty . project manager: yeah ? 'kay . user interface: yeah . we we have to marketing: well i i guess people of sixteen are are quite used to technology . project manager: yeah . marketing: so they they adapt to it pretty soon i guess . user interface: and if we have a larger public we have uh yeah more options to to uh sell our product . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah so what we might wan na do is uh yeah cust i have customised the screen functions , if you know what i mean . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: the uh younger users are more acquainted with these kind of machines so they can use more advanced functions . but maybe elderly people do n't understand it so well , so they need a simpler remote . project manager: design . mm . industrial designer: and yeah that you can choose what the design displays , or wha whatever . user interface: yeah that 's that 's why uh i wanted to to make yeah two uh different uh yeah groups of functions . the the simple functions for for the the whole public , and the the advanced options for the younger people yeah who are more yeah experienced with uh industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . and maybe y industrial designer: experienced yeah . marketing: but uh all incorporated in the screen or or just on the remote itself ? user interface: na i w i should uh put uh the the yeah the extra advanced options on the onto the onscreen display . marketing: yeah project manager: yeah . marketing: like like you have a visual of the of the brightness with with a kind of sliding bar and a bus and and stuff like that for sound and and vis and and visuals ? project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . so is you should have a menu for all the the functions you do n't use regular and which are marketing: uh you can make a if you make a drawing . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . aye yeah . marketing: uh uh . project manager: shall i uh marketing: uh black 's okay . and draw it very big . project manager: yeah . it 's okay . marketing: oh . yeah . project manager: no , it does n't have line control , so marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah we get the marketing: yeah well , this is basically uh it 's industrial designer: the remote ? project manager: the remote , yeah ? marketing: alright the remote ? um well usually the power button is on top i guess . project manager: basic . is on top . which should be easy , easily reached with the thumb . marketing: yeah so it should fit right in into your hand . user interface: yeah . l left top or right uh top ? project manager: t i s should said right . marketing: right . right . user interface: yeah , right . industrial designer: right top . marketing: i most people are right-handed so user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah definitely . marketing: maybe left-handed special addition , but okay . user interface: marketing: if you put it like like here . or something . i dunno . um then you could put a screen , like on a mobile phone , also on top i guess . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah but if you are using the the normal functions , the the basic functions , you normally press them on the u yeah . project manager: do the also with the thumb . so it should be a little bit longer so that you can put your uh thumb , also reach the middle . or you should screen at the bottom and then you can see it very clearly . marketing: okay so y yeah you have you have it in your hand , and the screen is below , and the buttons are in the middle . project manager: you you need to be able to hold it so user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: okay for example if you put the screen here , it 's more about the functions now than the than the layout . project manager: yeah okay that 's true . layout . that 's for the marketing: does n't work too well . it 's uh it 's bent . project manager: user interface: project manager: i ca n't help it . marketing: . user interface: you broke it . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: . project manager: man . marketing: right . project manager: yeah okay . marketing: okay you get it . uh for example if y if you put all the project manager: marketing: right . project manager: you want the normal piece of paper ? and you have a pen ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and might be easier huh ? marketing: maybe this . kind of works . project manager: yeah ? marketing: like if you have like uh ten buttons for for all the for all the channels , project manager: mm-hmm . uh . marketing: um and here one for for project manager: and the for flipping up and down . user interface: yeah yeah . and volume control . marketing: yeah that that usually uh like here , here , here , here . industrial designer: yeah i project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so you have up and down for the for the channels , and left and right for the volume uh project manager: and left to right . and those can also be used for the menu . industrial designer: yeah exactly . i thought but this is really your department , that we need just the functional display and four cursors . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah okay but this is function so if you can use them for multiple things marketing: and you you have industrial designer: and marketing: most of the time you have one button in the middle . it says menu , industrial designer: yeah okay . project manager: for the menu . yeah . marketing: and then if you press it you the screen gets activated and then you can use these buttons to scroll up and down and left and right to go into functon project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and then just project manager: yeah . marketing: mo most of the time this menu button is also like okay , to to confirm a a kind of action . project manager: yeah . marketing: so you scroll into it , okay . you select a function like v like uh bass . you just adjust it with these two buttons . project manager: yeah . marketing: then okay to confirm , and then uh on on each on each screen there 's there should be an option to go back to a to a upper level . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and then finally say okay , exit . or or one button to exit it . user interface: yeah . marketing: uh in one time i dunno , that 's not really my department . user interface: and do we need a a logo on our uh remote control , or marketing: that 's more your uh your department to to uh to project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . but it should be if the screen is here then the logo should be like on on top , user interface: on the left uh top yeah . marketing: yeah . i mean it 's uh project manager: yeah but that depends on where you put the screen . user interface: okay . project manager: but it 's essential that there is a screen . marketing: yeah . yeah i mean the position of the screen is also more essential than i mean we we look where we have space left and then put the logo over there . project manager: yeah . and for the speech uh recognition part , if we want to incorporate that , we need a microphone . marketing: but um yeah so it should be i mean if you have it in your hand here , should be on top somewhere , maybe . project manager: yeah . this would be uh industrial designer: why did we wan na put the display in the bottom ? marketing: i mean i project manager: no that 's not s sure so industrial designer: okay . marketing: that 's not sure project manager: uh we need a display . marketing: but it 's user interface: yeah may maybe because you 're industrial designer: because yeah if you use the functions your hand will block the display . user interface: yeah okay but only for the basic functi if you 're going to use the advanced option , you 're going to press the the menu button and then yeah . marketing: yeah i mean a screen on top looks more lo logical to me . industrial designer: normal for logical t project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: also because people use m mobile phones and they also have the screen on top . project manager: yeah they 're used to it . user interface: okay the yeah . that 's possible . marketing: so you you just have to reach a little bit for the power button . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i mean if you grab it . industrial designer: on once it 's on it 's on . you do n't need the power button . marketing: but most most of the times if a if if a tv 's on standby people just press a channel to put it on . user interface: yeah , okay . okay we put it on top . marketing: so we put this on top , and then make the corporate logo user interface: yeah . marketing: like over here . r_r_ . and j and the microphone , i mean it can be very small . if you look at your mobile phones are some stripes , little little holes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: maybe on the top or even on the side . project manager: marketing: yeah maybe on the side . i mean if the if the microphone is good . project manager: yeah but then it 's possible that you cover it with your hand so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: true . marketing: yeah okay . so on the on the top is better . project manager: i think that top is the best option . industrial designer: but if you uh if you hold the ma the remote like this , if you put it on the top on the side project manager: yeah okay . industrial designer: i dunno . should be able to work . marketing: yeah . . project manager: depends on the sensitivity of the microphone , but i think that 's okay . industrial designer: never mind . can we leave this up to you ? user interface: marketing: yeah it does n't matter that much . so but um the screen is on top ? which functions did we have left ? i mean this is basically numbers , volume , uh channel up and down . project manager: volume . up . channel up and down , and the control of the advanced options . marketing: screen is over there . project manager: so maybe it , we should decide what advanced options we want to put in the lcd screen . user interface: yeah . if we marketing: yeah . yeah . that 's uh that 's a good one . industrial designer: yeah so we we needed to integrate the sound and uh and image options right ? project manager: yeah so sounds ? industrial designer: like uh bass uh marketing: yeah . sound ? industrial designer: so we need kind of an equaliser . if you marketing: yeah . equaliser . so if you have sound but not too advanced . i mean most tvs use only treble and bass . project manager: yeah user interface: yeah it it 's just a remote control so project manager: and they 're industrial designer: yeah treble , middl middle , bass or something . project manager: they 're not used often so user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . it 's uh pretty hard to write . project manager: industrial designer: ah as project manager: yeah just industrial designer: . marketing: mm . okay but you have sound ? project manager: yeah sounds . marketing: yeah just project manager: yeah . marketing: oh y you have digital uh industrial designer: . marketing: better write it down over there yeah . project manager: of course . i 'm just a secretary . marketing: so you have sound . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: coffee ? marketing: uh yeah sound and then within sound i guess treble and bass ? industrial designer: yes please . project manager: treble bass . industrial designer: the mono stereo option ? marketing: yeah . also . project manager: uh industrial designer: and there there was something else also . project manager: pitch i believe , yeah . industrial designer: and then pitch . marketing: pitch . yeah . but pitch , is n't that yeah that 's the the height of the tone . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: the fr yeah the frequency of the tones , yeah . marketing: yeah okay , project manager: yeah and mono stereo . marketing: wh why would you use that ? industrial designer: yeah is n't that that depends on the on the signal of the of what program you 're watching . marketing: if people like talk like uh project manager: mm . marketing: yeah . project manager: and also the tuning part ? marketing: programming part . project manager: yeah programming . so channel programming ? marketing: uh so we have sound , yeah ? channel programming . industrial designer: and yeah in the functionality of the user interface: television uh itself uh industrial designer: no no of the remote uh do do we want uh the buttons to make sound when you press them ? as a confirmation or whatever you know ? user interface: mm . marketing: mm . project manager: mm . industrial designer: i dunno . marketing: i think it g it gets annoying . project manager: yeah . marketing: i mean most mobile phones used that in the beginning but user interface: we we could make an option for it , but uh you can disable s industrial designer: under the a yeah advanced option menu you can put those things . user interface: yeah . but uh the the television itself has also the the options brightness and uh screen colour etcetera . so marketing: yeah . project manager: contrast yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah but people do n't want to sit on their knees on their knees in front of their television with only three buttons then it 's very hard to project manager: mm . no . uh , so contrast , marketing: y yeah contrast and brightness ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: bright , marketing: yeah those are the most used i guess . if you look at your monitor . project manager: uh and the others were in your presentation right ? so i can just copy those ? marketing: well yeah well i guess that these were the only ones , i guess . project manager: okay . it 's easy . industrial designer: but so we have we have tv options , which is all this . marketing: yeah . i will look it up . project manager: yeah the button options and the lcd options . industrial designer: the sound , sound and image . and you have in that uh the indeed the remote control options . project manager: indeed . marketing: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so we need two menus kind of thing . project manager: yeah you have basically a button menu , which you can use directly , uh according to the old principle . industrial designer: uh-huh . project manager: and the lcd options are activated by some some software options , thats communicates with the infrared uh decoder yeah . marketing: yeah with the chip and then i mean project manager: so you you have an additional processor and and software part . marketing: uh yeah . well yeah we have power button , whether that 's present . project manager: compared to o industrial designer: alright . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: channel volume selection present . uh numbers present . yeah a audio settings , mono , stereo , pitch , bass , treble . screen settings , brightness and colour . project manager: l_ s yeah . colour . yeah i i call it contrast . marketing: yeah con contrast is project manager: yeah i make it c colour . marketing: yeah okay , colour and brightness . project manager: yeah . marketing: um and what you say , channel settings or channel programming ? so you you have an option to to start scanning all the frequencies , and when it encounters one , well it shows on your tv . and then you can um project manager: yeah and automatically um mm-hmm . marketing: uh and then you can select uh a number in your remote on which you want to save it . project manager: yeah so i 've g channel program is autoseek ? marketing: yeah , autoseek . project manager: uh name a channel , or marketing: well most tvs automatically display the name , which they get through the cable . project manager: oh they get automatic names , okay . marketing: yeah . so you only have to choose the position on your project manager: . marketing: it only has to match the the channel frequency on your tv , with with the with the position on your tv and and so your remote . project manager: yeah . yeah but can you also say i want f uh veronica on the channel number uh five or industrial designer: help . marketing: if you already programmed it . project manager: yeah . marketing: if you want to move it . yeah that should be possible too . project manager: yeah . how do you call that ? marketing: yeah how do you call that ? mm ? wait you you should be able to to browse through a list or something , which w displays all the all the values , all the channels which are possible . project manager: channels ? yeah . marketing: i mean like one to f thirty of or ninety or whatever . project manager: ninety nine or something . yeah . marketing: just browse through it and then um in some kind of way see if it if it if it is programmed . project manager: s swap channels ? can i call it that ? marketing: yeah . swap channels . project manager: swap 's good option . okay . uh other functions ? marketing: so you most of the time if you if you swap it s uh let 's say for example you have uh r_t_l_ five on on channel five . and veronica on channel eight and you want to move veronica to channel five , most of the times you override the previous uh the previous one . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . well that 's 's up to uh mister user interface designer . user interface: marketing: yeah . it 's it 's pretty uh user interface: okay . marketing: yeah i mean you have to look on on the menu industrial designer: working design . doch . project manager: also . marketing: on the tv . project manager: that 's you 're industrial designer: he only has to figure out how it has to look . project manager: yeah but also , which buttons you have to press to get a certain result ? industrial designer: and how user interface: yeah . industrial designer: to use project manager: and the working design was to specify how ph the physical interation between the components was , as i believe . industrial designer: yeah okay . but you did your homework . but um yeah . okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: or or is it too hard to to ju to just do it all on your remote ? to programme the channels ? project manager: no i do n't think so . industrial designer: no no . it should be able to do any remote . user interface: no that 's marketing: uh . project manager: but i think the communication with the television is difficult . but that 's not our part . marketing: yeah . project manager: we do n't have to design a protocol so marketing: no . industrial designer: no . project manager: marketing: that 's true . that 's true . industrial designer: thank god . user interface: okay marketing: yeah . so we have a figure a figure out a way to to do that easily . i mean th the autoseek is is not a problem . project manager: no that 's the marketing: i mean you uh you uh current channel and then then it just says , uh on which number do you want to save this , and you just press a number on your remote , and then say confirm , okay , and then it 's it 's saved . it 's easier , it 's it 's it 's harder to , if you have already programmed it , to to swap . project manager: yeah . so but marketing: so we have to think of something for that . project manager: um the user interface designer can design a menu for all these function i put them on the marketing: yeah k kind of structure into layers . user interface: on the uh yeah can you i make a a map with with all the yeah 'cause it 's now there are lots and lots of documents project manager: . yeah . yeah i can . user interface: and project manager: i 'll just try to reorganise uh things . um marketing: so project manager: so you design the basic function menu for the lcd screen ? uh um i think marketing: and and the layout of of the thing itself . project manager: th i think the yeah the layout of the screen user interface: the the layout of the remote control ? project manager: and i think you can concentrate more on the button placement and the placement of the uh screen itself on the marketing: . user interface: is n't that more the the u uh the user interface part ? project manager: . no i d i think that 's more in . industrial designer: uh all the functional uh aspects of the remote i think are in my department . marketing: maybe more on project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i have to know what it has to do , so if you wan na you know the changing the channels kind of s thing is , i have to integrate that in the design . project manager: okay . so he 's layout and you 're function . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: form function okay . industrial designer: i think that 's a that 's a good separation . marketing: okay . user interface: but do i have to to uh to yeah to make the the menu layout also ? or project manager: yeah . user interface: are you going to do that ? industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah . yeah i guess so . user interface: yeah ? i i 'm going to make project manager: i think i that 's your department yes , user interface: yeah o okay . project manager: because w he already knows what industrial designer: yeah we have to kind of work together . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: if if i make the the the yeah the menu like , i have to state which function has to be in the menu , project manager: but we 're not allowed . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: and then you have to decide , it 's , in a in a way that b is user-friendly . user interface: yeah . okay . y you you are going to make a list of what functions are uh are going to to be on the the screen , the menu screen . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and i 'm going to make a a nice menu uh with with pages and yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think yeah . marketing: with with some l with some layers in it . project manager: yeah and also make clear which buttons to press to get certain result , marketing: so some menus . project manager: because that 's always the difficulty . marketing: yeah . project manager: every device has its own user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . well i guess this this button , the the the okay , project manager: menu okay . marketing: menu okay . or you can incorporate two uh difference uh different buttons . uh like uh for your mobile phone . um so this is only for to get in the menu , or to exit it . project manager: mm . marketing: and then one to confirm , and one to go one step back . project manager: back . yeah . marketing: so it 's like the the save button on your your mobile phone , if you have a nokia or like that . or the or the no button . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: to go one step back you it 's only two extra buttons , user interface: yeah . w we marketing: but if it if it 's very clear that they are for the screen user interface: uh i think we have to to group , to make two groups . um the one group for the for the display , and one group for the basic functions , and industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah but they 're incorporated ? up and down is user interface: yeah okay but we we have a m marketing: yeah because this this is used for both . user interface: yeah but maybe that 's that 's not uh project manager: smart ? user interface: yeah if you 're if you 're z zapping uh with your uh yeah remote control , you can press the the menu button , and then you are suddenly into the the yeah the display . marketing: into your screen . okay . so you industrial designer: you wan na separate uh marketing: l should leave the menu button out of here . user interface: yeah . marketing: and and just put it under the screen , the screen project manager: put it on top . user interface: yeah j just just group group the yeah we make these the advanced functions and these the basic functions . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so we make a yeah a line between them . marketing: yeah . but we should place the screen on top , right ? project manager: well user interface: f oh yeah . okay yeah we swap uh okay . project manager: but that 's uh j jurgen 's department . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . so we make it a marketing: yeah . you just you just find out and . project manager: you just make the layout . you user interface: okay . project manager: do we do the extra two buttons or not ? user interface: uh industrial designer: i think you should . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: it 's easier . if you put too many functions in one button it gets confusing . project manager: yeah okay . that 's true . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . so we have a a menu button and a s project manager: and to , okay and back , also . user interface: okay . okay and back button . marketing: yeah . yeah , or confirm and back . whatever . project manager: and of course the four arrows . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: no . project manager: but those are still y doubly used . both the lcd marketing: should we save this picture , or or you know what it looks like ? user interface: yeah i 'm i 'm not s clear about uh the the extra two buttons . we have a menu button and project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . that that just to to activate the screen . so user interface: that 's the the one with the yeah okay . project manager: menu button access the menu in the lcd screen . marketing: and then with these buttons , woa , y you navigate . project manager: you can navigate . user interface: okay . project manager: but you can also navigate the channels . and the volume . user interface: okay so that that 's not uh yeah that those are project manager: those are both both user interface: multifunctional . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: hey is it interesting for users if we put led lights under the buttons ? so that if you uh press on the menu function that only the buttons that are used for the menu are ligh li light up . marketing: yeah . l l litten up yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: oh five minutes . marketing: that 's very good idea . industrial designer: n marketing: alright . project manager: light uh marketing: yeah that 's a good idea because then it becomes clear which buttons are active now , which you can use . industrial designer: yeah and then it 's also easier to integrate several functions in one button . project manager: yeah sure . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: um marketing: so project manager: anything else ? marketing: those buttons are are lit up . industrial designer: i think not . marketing: but just one thing . should we use those two ? them ? or only this to to scroll ? project manager: i 've marketing: and then use the two functional buttons to confirm , to go into something ? oh no we have to use this to adjust some some bars ? project manager: volume . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah keep it optional 'cause maybe you can you know go left to right and up and down in a in one menu . marketing: yeah . and maybe we should use this also as an okay button , still . and then just only a back button . project manager: well we have those buttons . we use all four . user interface: no industrial designer: the pr the problem with the okay button in the middle is , sorry project manager: yeah okay go ahead . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: sorry , uh is uh if you 're pressing up and down , you can easily press the okay once you , when you 're not already at your choice . user interface: yeah . so maybe make one uh one okay button and and one navigation button . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah that was already decided . marketing: and one back . user interface: yeah the with with the the channel and the volume uh yeah m a multifunctional navigation button . project manager: okay that 's what we decided earlier on . user interface: yeah okay . yeah . project manager: right okay . so marketing: yeah . industrial designer: you wan na close down huh ? project manager: yeah i wan na close down . user interface: project manager: i have to , sorry . marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's not because i do n't like you but marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that 's okay . project manager: yh we have lunch break , industrial designer: already . project manager: and then we can work for thirty minutes , and i have to write very fast to make the minich min minutes . and then uh we 'll see marketing: yeah . industrial designer: alright . how m how long is the lunchbreak ? project manager: i do n't know . nobody told me . marketing: we have to ask . user interface: but do we have to write uh to write down uh the our stuff now ? or first lunchbreak ? industrial designer: okay . project manager: no i th believe there 's first lunch break . user interface: because i i 've everything in my head now so project manager: yeah . or you can just industrial designer: mm . user interface: okay . project manager: yeah ? user interface: yeah . project manager: 'kay . marketing: yes . project manager: marketing: project manager: i think you can put uh the laptop back in the room and user interface: 'kay . industrial designer: this is user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yes sir . marketing: time pressure . project manager: 'kay . yeah it 's a lot of pressure . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . sorry for my uh not finished presentation uh . project manager: that 's okay . oh yeah . user interface: oh no no . marketing: yeah we 'll kick your ass later . no . uh . project manager: industrial designer: bring it on . project manager: i do n't know if it works but it should be saved . marketing: aye y you saved it ? does it save automatically in the project folder ? or project manager: yeah . it 's uh marketing: okay . we 'll see . project manager: should be here . smart board . marketing: just put back my laptop . project manager: do n't know if you can use it but marketing: alright . user interface: okay . marketing: yeah you can open it with the picture preview or stuff like that . user interface: and uh we have to make uh some maps with uh with the all the the data we uh gathered . project manager: yeah . i try to organise it by these three . user interface: . it 's it 's just my own map so i put everything into the project manager: yeah yeah yeah . marketing: project manager: i do n't really mind . i just put the minutes here and we 'll see . user interface: but you got some extra information uh project manager: yeah that 's in the functional design uh folder . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: yeah . yeah that 's just basically what i just showed . user interface: but where do you did you get the newsflash ? project manager: yeah . yeah i got it by user interface: you 're the only one uh okay . project manager: yeah . i 'm gon na get kicked if i do n't do it so marketing: internet . user interface: okay . industrial designer: alright . marketing: alright . user interface: yeah . project manager: make me proud . industrial designer: i 'll try to . marketing: industrial designer: so first we have a lunchbreak now ? user interface: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: alright . project manager: i believe so . just ask . industrial designer: mm-hmm . i dunno where she .

the whole meeting was about what the group should do for the remote control , from a good-looking appearance to a joyful user experience . at the beginning , the group had individual presentations about their previous research findings . through those presentations , all of the four got a general idea about the target market , the functions and the layout . they talked about the functions carefully as well as the interface design of the remote control later on . finally , under the leadership of the project manager , all the members got some assignments for their next detailed design .

summarize the ideas of the individual presentations on the design , the functions and the target users of the remote control . </s> industrial designer: . user interface: hello . 'kay . project manager: you all saw the newsflash ? industrial designer: it 's project manager: or you got the same message ? marketing: yeah i i just saw it one minute ago . project manager: yeah sorry . industrial designer: i do n't know . marketing: when i uh industrial designer: i did n't see it yet i think . user interface: newsflash ? d did i miss something ? marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . yeah i received an email so i thought i i ca n't mail you so i thought i 'd just drop it in the folder , but marketing: yeah pretty much . industrial designer: hey what 's wrong with my computer ? user interface: okay . project manager: is it unlocked ? user interface: no . industrial designer: . marketing: mm . yeah that 's my presentation . project manager: woah . i uh kind of opened it . user interface: mm . industrial designer: huh ? marketing: mm ? project manager: uh industrial designer: what the marketing: oh right . user interface: i think you have to uh change your desktop uh project manager: okay . marketing: user interface: size . marketing: ooh . project manager: 'kay . everybody ready ? industrial designer: not really . marketing: well industrial designer: sorry . project manager: no no no . yes yes yes . user interface: computer is uh not functioning ? marketing: alright . project manager: okay . industrial designer: okay . where do i find this ? i 'm not so g display huh ? user interface: uh display . marketing: user interface: and then uh settings ? industrial designer: appearance ? marketing: huh . user interface: mm i 'm not sure i . marketing: you read the newsflash ? project manager: 'kay . can we get started user interface: no . industrial designer: no what was it about ? marketing: hmm . project manager: or is there some pressing issue ? industrial designer: yeah my computer is not functioning properly . project manager: oh no pressing . user interface: marketing: project manager: did you plug in the power cable when you come back ? industrial designer: yeah yeah . no but my screen is reduced in size . project manager: yeah . that 's difficult . yeah . user interface: marketing: what ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: feedback . marketing: hmm . user interface: okay . project manager: industrial designer: okay . marketing: alt delete . project manager: yeah . user interface: format . project manager: format save . marketing: . so it does n't draw the attention away . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: this is dreadful . user interface: i made uh uh my own map . project manager: oh yeah sure . industrial designer: no not this , but the task . user interface: it 's a project manager: you have playstation also ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . no that 's okay . no i just flapped it , closed it , took it here and then this happened . ah . uh where was it ? in settings ? okay . alright . thank you . project manager: huh . industrial designer: do you guys like your tasks ? user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i spent a lot of time thinking about what i was gon na do and then a couple of minutes before this i get my function you know the information that i need . user interface: yeah wa wa you actually yeah . but it it 's not clear what you have to to to type uh type in your presentation . industrial designer: so frustrating . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so marketing: yeah . i i had a whole idea and then just was typing it and then oh . i have to do that so switch . industrial designer: yeah yeah exactly . this presentation is mainly based on my own ideas 'cause i had n't time to intergrate tha the information yet so user interface: yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: really annoying . project manager: okay . so there we are again . marketing: by your humble p_m_ . project manager: yeah . marketing: project manager: okay this is the agenda . um we have three presentations , i heard . marketing: user interface: really . project manager: yeah really . so who wants to start ? marketing: yeah that 's fine . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we have to start it right away ? project manager: yeah . uh this is you ? marketing: functional ? yeah functional requirements . project manager: 'kay . marketing: alright . i 'm gon na talk about functional requirements . um well uh some research has be done uh has been done . uh observing of one hundred uh subjects in the usability lab using a remote control . uh and they also filled in a questionnaire . the findings were um , well you can see them for yourself . they disliked the look-and-feel of current remotes controls . users think they 're ugly . um they do not match the the operating behaviour of the users . so they they d they do n't match what they want to have on it . um they are often lost somewhere in the room . um it takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control . and they 're bad for r_s_i_ . i do n't know uh how a user can reach that but okay . um industrial designer: ts marketing: there is also uh was also some research on uh the most relevant and and and irrelevant uh f functions . uh most irrelevant and less used were audio settings , mono , stereo , uh pitch , bass . um screen settings for brightness and colour and stuff like that . um but they are used . i mean the industrial designer: so they do need to be in the project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah they do need to be on the on the remote control . industrial designer: alright . marketing: i mean if you ca n't control the the sound settings i mean if you dislike a very uh loud bass or something , you you need to change that . project manager: often . marketing: so um yeah we have to . industrial designer: by the way my tv does n't have an equ equaliser but marketing: we c we c yeah i mean w we ca n't project manager: next generation does . industrial designer: okay . marketing: my my tv has , industrial designer: no . alright . marketing: but we we can leave them uh away . uh most relevant , uh most used functions , uh they speak for themselves i guess . uh power button , uh channel , volume selection . uh teletext but we can skip that because i saw the newsflash , and teletext is so outdated that it it 's i should not be used uh any more in the future . project manager: n not used anymore . marketing: so forget this one . user interface: okay . marketing: uh channel settings , so for programming uh your channels in in the right order . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: by the way where did you guys get that newsflash from ? user interface: yeah . i was wondering uh industrial designer: i did n't get anything . marketing: yeah , on on the project uh project manager: yeah . not by mail . i receiv the mail but you do n't . so user interface: but you you 've got more information than uh . marketing: no so it 's a text file n in the project folder . so teletext can be skipped . project manager: that 's in the presentation , so industrial designer: alright . marketing: um there was some research on new features in a remote control . uh about an lcd screen uh and speech recognition . well we got an update for the for the audience . or the the the targeted group . so it 's above forty i guess . project manager: uh below i believe . marketing: the new product ? or below project manager: yeah below forty . marketing: because that 's pretty relevant . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: i thought i read a project manager: our current customers are in the age group forty plus . marketing: yeah ? project manager: and the new product should reach new markets , which is the customers below forty . marketing: below ? okay well user interface: but where did you get uh that information ? project manager: that 's in a newsflash . marketing: that 's that 's in the newsfla project manager: user interface: okay . marketing: okay that 's a good to know . um because you see see a clear distinction between the age groups , concerning the features . user interface: yeah . marketing: i mean uh above forty people are not so interested uh not so interested in a screen or speech recognition . uh but below that age they uh they pretty much are . so i think we can build that in . um yeah well we can skip this part as well , because i thought i read above forty so we could skip the features , but we just have to build them in because uh they find it very interesting . um well we have to keep all the classic functions but make the buttons as user-friendly as possible . um and and also there 's so not only the design of the bus uh buttons but o how you can push them , and stuff like that . so the physical uh aspect of it . um and i think and certainly for for the for the lower age groups , uh nice design , which uh does not make the remote control in your room . user interface: yeah . marketing: it 's it 's actually a part of your interior , of of your design in your room . so it 's the people can say , well what 's that , well that 's my remote control , so it 's d it has to look nice and feel nice , and and have all the functions that uh project manager: yeah . but it also needs to have corporate identity . marketing: yeah so the the logo has to be project manager: present and the colours . marketing: uh present yeah , and the colours as well . project manager: so we ca n't change much of that . industrial designer: do we have uh yeah . marketing: yeah so but i i do n't think that 's that 's a problem because the thing has to have a colour anyway , and most of the times there is a brand present on it . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . yeah . yeah . marketing: so i think that 's not gon na gon na affect it very uh very much . project manager: okay . marketing: well that are the the consequences uh on a marketing uh part . project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: alright . marketing: yes . user interface: okay . project manager: it 's open already so you can use to marketing: . project manager: find yours . user interface: mm . it 's project manager: f_ five . user interface: f_ five . okay . project manager: go jurgen . user interface: oh . what is this ? marketing: user interface: oh no . industrial designer: user interface: how do i uh project manager: you pressed alt f_ four ? user interface: no no no . i pressed the mouse button . project manager: oh great . user interface: industrial designer: it 's th that 's the self-destruct button . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . okay . project manager: uh maybe you can do it from your computer so talk us through it . user interface: okay . um if you all go stand around uh marketing: yeah . just yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: computer industrial designer: alright . marketing: sure . user interface: um project manager: that 's nice . user interface: no . project manager: f_ five . yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: alright . user interface: i uh had uh two examples . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um this one is the the yeah the advanced one with a lot of options and functions and buttons . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: this the easy one marketing: yeah . user interface: i think we have to to combine them . and uh yeah merge the best functions of all examples . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . user interface: um but yeah the the age is uh under forty ? project manager: the mm yeah . marketing: yeah and and and marketing research stated that that that kind of users are not afraid of of a lot of functions . user interface: so we okay so so we have the option for more functions . marketing: so not not too much but yeah . user interface: um yeah . industrial designer: and we do have to integrate the screen and the the speech marketing: and the speech recognition yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: alright . user interface: uh yeah this this one we can remove for kids . it 's just only for adults so uh we can uh use some advanced options . but marketing: yeah from age of sixteen so yeah . user interface: yeah but i prefer we we uh use the the basic options uh yeah . we have to to make them very easy so for just uh zapping around the channels you can just push one button . marketing: mm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: but if you want to to use your your video recorder or something else , you should use use an uh an advanced option . marketing: yeah but uh the the newsflash also stated that it should control only one device , only your television . user interface: okay one device . project manager: yeah . so n it 's very easy . user interface: okay . i did n't see . marketing: so w project manager: now yeah it 's okay . user interface: okay and i also uh yeah . w yeah . marketing: so there are not extra options in this case , but uh project manager: okay . user interface: we have to make it fashionable . like you uh said uh before . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: uh yeah the basic functions . um yeah only use a extra function if they are really needed . project manager: yeah so maybe you can hide them or something . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah well what what we can do with the screen is is all the the configuration options , you can put that in the screen . project manager: yeah you make a screen menu or something . marketing: and the and the yeah screen menu to to to uh to do that , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: and then the basic function just on the device itself . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so it looks very simple and all the advanced features are hidden in the screen , uh with a clear menu . project manager: yeah and the other oth other uh functionality is the screen . user interface: yeah . project manager: what does the screen do ? user interface: did i uh industrial designer: alright . marketing: uh . what are wh project manager: yeah . it 's low power . user interface: did i break it ? marketing: what . project manager: so what does the screen do ? they said they needed it but what does it do ? what do they want with the screen ? user interface: for for the advanced functions i think . project manager: yeah that 's what we make it up . marketing: yeah well it yeah it did n't project manager: so but what did the marketing marketing: it did n't say what they want to do with the screen . project manager: no . marketing: well i , my guess is it 's it 's pretty handy for advanced uh advanced functions . project manager: yeah okay it 's handy . with no predefined uh user interface: like searching for channels and industrial designer: ah look . marketing: yeah searching for channels , programming them . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we have your uh oh never mind . project manager: we 're back online . user interface: okay . that 's uh i 'm al i 'm almost finished so project manager: okay . user interface: um the we have to to to watch out for the i if we make it f very fashionable , it it the functional functionality will go down . so we have to make uh a compromise between functionality and fashional fashionable project manager: mm-hmm . content and form . user interface: yeah content and form . industrial designer: . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: now that that was uh was the end . project manager: that was the end . okay . user interface: yes . industrial designer: okay . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: well my presentation is a bit uh sucky . marketing: well you can improvise right ? project manager: uh which one is it ? technical functions ? industrial designer: yeah a little bit . project manager: this one ? industrial designer: uh no . no no . project manager: functional requirements ? industrial designer: yeah i think that would be it then . project manager: no . user interface: project manager: you did n't put it in ? or industrial designer: i have no idea . marketing: so we we can go for industrial designer: that w . project manager: it 's not really english . industrial designer: let me check . i know . project manager: uh kick off . oh working design i got it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so we can go for the look-and-feel of the the left example , and then a screen on top of it . project manager: here you go . industrial designer: alright how do i uh skip pages ? project manager: just uh press uh yeah . yeah . industrial designer: the keys yeah ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: alright . um yeah well i was working on this before i got my information . so i was just working off the top of my head and using my colin common knowledge about uh remote controls . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: industrial designer: and well the info on the website which came too late . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um so i did n't really know what kind of functions we had to put into it yet . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so uh uh this is basically an overview of what we discussed in our last uh meeting . those were my uh starting points . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh i was working on a s yeah on a schedule , and i was supposed to do it like this . but um yeah then uh the information came and it was kind of exact with all the steps in the remote control that i had to follow , so i was trying to organise them for myself . project manager: marketing: project manager: mm . industrial designer: and then make the project manager: design yeah . industrial designer: the design , a the actual design , marketing: design ? yeah . industrial designer: but i never came around to do that . so i 'm not really sure what i 'm supposed to say about it . marketing: okay . industrial designer: i mean everything speaks for itself i guess . mean you press a button um the it tru goes , it sends a signal to a chip , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: which uh translates it into infrared signal of certin spatial frequencies . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah frequency . yeah . industrial designer: and uh or temporal fr frequencies actually . and then uh through a uh transformer , it the signal gets boosted and then sent to the to the receiver on the tv project manager: yeah decoder . industrial designer: and the tv will translate it into a function . um yeah well this was actually all i got around to do . project manager: blank . yeah okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i mean i dunno if i 'm too slow for this stuff , but uh project manager: work harder . marketing: user interface: okay shou should we make a list of the of all the functions we want uh marketing: industrial designer: yeah . whatever . project manager: yeah . uh marketing: yeah we want to incorporate in uh into it . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'kay . um for those that did n't see yet um the basic new requirements of the management were no teletext , only for tv . uh it should be designed for a use g uh group below forty , but i do n't think it 's w wrong if we can uh target the current customer group as well . marketing: mm . project manager: and uh the corporate identity should be clear in the design of the remote control . and we have to decide on the functions , and on the , let 's see what was it , uh the target group . we have to make be clear what that is . marketing: group of users , or project manager: yeah users . marketing: because it says below forty i mean . project manager: yeah so i think it 's easy but marketing: i guess that 's that 's the tar yeah uh or male and female user interface: but uh it 's it 's also for children or just uh project manager: yeah it 's below forty so we can decide where to marketing: uh six the marketing research started on s on the age of sixteen . user interface: okay . okay . marketing: sixteen to twenty five , twenty five to thirty five , thirty five to forty five , something like that . project manager: okay . so below forty is okay . marketing: so um project manager: but we need an lower level which to s uh focus . marketing: how do you mean ? project manager: so is it from sixteen to forty ? is it from twenty to forty ? is it from thirty ? marketing: uh sixteen to forty . project manager: yeah ? 'kay . user interface: yeah . we we have to marketing: well i i guess people of sixteen are are quite used to technology . project manager: yeah . marketing: so they they adapt to it pretty soon i guess . user interface: and if we have a larger public we have uh yeah more options to to uh sell our product . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah so what we might wan na do is uh yeah cust i have customised the screen functions , if you know what i mean . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: the uh younger users are more acquainted with these kind of machines so they can use more advanced functions . but maybe elderly people do n't understand it so well , so they need a simpler remote . project manager: design . mm . industrial designer: and yeah that you can choose what the design displays , or wha whatever . user interface: yeah that 's that 's why uh i wanted to to make yeah two uh different uh yeah groups of functions . the the simple functions for for the the whole public , and the the advanced options for the younger people yeah who are more yeah experienced with uh industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . and maybe y industrial designer: experienced yeah . marketing: but uh all incorporated in the screen or or just on the remote itself ? user interface: na i w i should uh put uh the the yeah the extra advanced options on the onto the onscreen display . marketing: yeah project manager: yeah . marketing: like like you have a visual of the of the brightness with with a kind of sliding bar and a bus and and stuff like that for sound and and vis and and visuals ? project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . so is you should have a menu for all the the functions you do n't use regular and which are marketing: uh you can make a if you make a drawing . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . aye yeah . marketing: uh uh . project manager: shall i uh marketing: uh black 's okay . and draw it very big . project manager: yeah . it 's okay . marketing: oh . yeah . project manager: no , it does n't have line control , so marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah we get the marketing: yeah well , this is basically uh it 's industrial designer: the remote ? project manager: the remote , yeah ? marketing: alright the remote ? um well usually the power button is on top i guess . project manager: basic . is on top . which should be easy , easily reached with the thumb . marketing: yeah so it should fit right in into your hand . user interface: yeah . l left top or right uh top ? project manager: t i s should said right . marketing: right . right . user interface: yeah , right . industrial designer: right top . marketing: i most people are right-handed so user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah definitely . marketing: maybe left-handed special addition , but okay . user interface: marketing: if you put it like like here . or something . i dunno . um then you could put a screen , like on a mobile phone , also on top i guess . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah but if you are using the the normal functions , the the basic functions , you normally press them on the u yeah . project manager: do the also with the thumb . so it should be a little bit longer so that you can put your uh thumb , also reach the middle . or you should screen at the bottom and then you can see it very clearly . marketing: okay so y yeah you have you have it in your hand , and the screen is below , and the buttons are in the middle . project manager: you you need to be able to hold it so user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: okay for example if you put the screen here , it 's more about the functions now than the than the layout . project manager: yeah okay that 's true . layout . that 's for the marketing: does n't work too well . it 's uh it 's bent . project manager: user interface: project manager: i ca n't help it . marketing: . user interface: you broke it . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: . project manager: man . marketing: right . project manager: yeah okay . marketing: okay you get it . uh for example if y if you put all the project manager: marketing: right . project manager: you want the normal piece of paper ? and you have a pen ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and might be easier huh ? marketing: maybe this . kind of works . project manager: yeah ? marketing: like if you have like uh ten buttons for for all the for all the channels , project manager: mm-hmm . uh . marketing: um and here one for for project manager: and the for flipping up and down . user interface: yeah yeah . and volume control . marketing: yeah that that usually uh like here , here , here , here . industrial designer: yeah i project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so you have up and down for the for the channels , and left and right for the volume uh project manager: and left to right . and those can also be used for the menu . industrial designer: yeah exactly . i thought but this is really your department , that we need just the functional display and four cursors . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah okay but this is function so if you can use them for multiple things marketing: and you you have industrial designer: and marketing: most of the time you have one button in the middle . it says menu , industrial designer: yeah okay . project manager: for the menu . yeah . marketing: and then if you press it you the screen gets activated and then you can use these buttons to scroll up and down and left and right to go into functon project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and then just project manager: yeah . marketing: mo most of the time this menu button is also like okay , to to confirm a a kind of action . project manager: yeah . marketing: so you scroll into it , okay . you select a function like v like uh bass . you just adjust it with these two buttons . project manager: yeah . marketing: then okay to confirm , and then uh on on each on each screen there 's there should be an option to go back to a to a upper level . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and then finally say okay , exit . or or one button to exit it . user interface: yeah . marketing: uh in one time i dunno , that 's not really my department . user interface: and do we need a a logo on our uh remote control , or marketing: that 's more your uh your department to to uh to project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . but it should be if the screen is here then the logo should be like on on top , user interface: on the left uh top yeah . marketing: yeah . i mean it 's uh project manager: yeah but that depends on where you put the screen . user interface: okay . project manager: but it 's essential that there is a screen . marketing: yeah . yeah i mean the position of the screen is also more essential than i mean we we look where we have space left and then put the logo over there . project manager: yeah . and for the speech uh recognition part , if we want to incorporate that , we need a microphone . marketing: but um yeah so it should be i mean if you have it in your hand here , should be on top somewhere , maybe . project manager: yeah . this would be uh industrial designer: why did we wan na put the display in the bottom ? marketing: i mean i project manager: no that 's not s sure so industrial designer: okay . marketing: that 's not sure project manager: uh we need a display . marketing: but it 's user interface: yeah may maybe because you 're industrial designer: because yeah if you use the functions your hand will block the display . user interface: yeah okay but only for the basic functi if you 're going to use the advanced option , you 're going to press the the menu button and then yeah . marketing: yeah i mean a screen on top looks more lo logical to me . industrial designer: normal for logical t project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: also because people use m mobile phones and they also have the screen on top . project manager: yeah they 're used to it . user interface: okay the yeah . that 's possible . marketing: so you you just have to reach a little bit for the power button . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i mean if you grab it . industrial designer: on once it 's on it 's on . you do n't need the power button . marketing: but most most of the times if a if if a tv 's on standby people just press a channel to put it on . user interface: yeah , okay . okay we put it on top . marketing: so we put this on top , and then make the corporate logo user interface: yeah . marketing: like over here . r_r_ . and j and the microphone , i mean it can be very small . if you look at your mobile phones are some stripes , little little holes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: maybe on the top or even on the side . project manager: marketing: yeah maybe on the side . i mean if the if the microphone is good . project manager: yeah but then it 's possible that you cover it with your hand so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: true . marketing: yeah okay . so on the on the top is better . project manager: i think that top is the best option . industrial designer: but if you uh if you hold the ma the remote like this , if you put it on the top on the side project manager: yeah okay . industrial designer: i dunno . should be able to work . marketing: yeah . . project manager: depends on the sensitivity of the microphone , but i think that 's okay . industrial designer: never mind . can we leave this up to you ? user interface: marketing: yeah it does n't matter that much . so but um the screen is on top ? which functions did we have left ? i mean this is basically numbers , volume , uh channel up and down . project manager: volume . up . channel up and down , and the control of the advanced options . marketing: screen is over there . project manager: so maybe it , we should decide what advanced options we want to put in the lcd screen . user interface: yeah . if we marketing: yeah . yeah . that 's uh that 's a good one . industrial designer: yeah so we we needed to integrate the sound and uh and image options right ? project manager: yeah so sounds ? industrial designer: like uh bass uh marketing: yeah . sound ? industrial designer: so we need kind of an equaliser . if you marketing: yeah . equaliser . so if you have sound but not too advanced . i mean most tvs use only treble and bass . project manager: yeah user interface: yeah it it 's just a remote control so project manager: and they 're industrial designer: yeah treble , middl middle , bass or something . project manager: they 're not used often so user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . it 's uh pretty hard to write . project manager: industrial designer: ah as project manager: yeah just industrial designer: . marketing: mm . okay but you have sound ? project manager: yeah sounds . marketing: yeah just project manager: yeah . marketing: oh y you have digital uh industrial designer: . marketing: better write it down over there yeah . project manager: of course . i 'm just a secretary . marketing: so you have sound . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: coffee ? marketing: uh yeah sound and then within sound i guess treble and bass ? industrial designer: yes please . project manager: treble bass . industrial designer: the mono stereo option ? marketing: yeah . also . project manager: uh industrial designer: and there there was something else also . project manager: pitch i believe , yeah . industrial designer: and then pitch . marketing: pitch . yeah . but pitch , is n't that yeah that 's the the height of the tone . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: the fr yeah the frequency of the tones , yeah . marketing: yeah okay , project manager: yeah and mono stereo . marketing: wh why would you use that ? industrial designer: yeah is n't that that depends on the on the signal of the of what program you 're watching . marketing: if people like talk like uh project manager: mm . marketing: yeah . project manager: and also the tuning part ? marketing: programming part . project manager: yeah programming . so channel programming ? marketing: uh so we have sound , yeah ? channel programming . industrial designer: and yeah in the functionality of the user interface: television uh itself uh industrial designer: no no of the remote uh do do we want uh the buttons to make sound when you press them ? as a confirmation or whatever you know ? user interface: mm . marketing: mm . project manager: mm . industrial designer: i dunno . marketing: i think it g it gets annoying . project manager: yeah . marketing: i mean most mobile phones used that in the beginning but user interface: we we could make an option for it , but uh you can disable s industrial designer: under the a yeah advanced option menu you can put those things . user interface: yeah . but uh the the television itself has also the the options brightness and uh screen colour etcetera . so marketing: yeah . project manager: contrast yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah but people do n't want to sit on their knees on their knees in front of their television with only three buttons then it 's very hard to project manager: mm . no . uh , so contrast , marketing: y yeah contrast and brightness ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: bright , marketing: yeah those are the most used i guess . if you look at your monitor . project manager: uh and the others were in your presentation right ? so i can just copy those ? marketing: well yeah well i guess that these were the only ones , i guess . project manager: okay . it 's easy . industrial designer: but so we have we have tv options , which is all this . marketing: yeah . i will look it up . project manager: yeah the button options and the lcd options . industrial designer: the sound , sound and image . and you have in that uh the indeed the remote control options . project manager: indeed . marketing: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so we need two menus kind of thing . project manager: yeah you have basically a button menu , which you can use directly , uh according to the old principle . industrial designer: uh-huh . project manager: and the lcd options are activated by some some software options , thats communicates with the infrared uh decoder yeah . marketing: yeah with the chip and then i mean project manager: so you you have an additional processor and and software part . marketing: uh yeah . well yeah we have power button , whether that 's present . project manager: compared to o industrial designer: alright . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: channel volume selection present . uh numbers present . yeah a audio settings , mono , stereo , pitch , bass , treble . screen settings , brightness and colour . project manager: l_ s yeah . colour . yeah i i call it contrast . marketing: yeah con contrast is project manager: yeah i make it c colour . marketing: yeah okay , colour and brightness . project manager: yeah . marketing: um and what you say , channel settings or channel programming ? so you you have an option to to start scanning all the frequencies , and when it encounters one , well it shows on your tv . and then you can um project manager: yeah and automatically um mm-hmm . marketing: uh and then you can select uh a number in your remote on which you want to save it . project manager: yeah so i 've g channel program is autoseek ? marketing: yeah , autoseek . project manager: uh name a channel , or marketing: well most tvs automatically display the name , which they get through the cable . project manager: oh they get automatic names , okay . marketing: yeah . so you only have to choose the position on your project manager: . marketing: it only has to match the the channel frequency on your tv , with with the with the position on your tv and and so your remote . project manager: yeah . yeah but can you also say i want f uh veronica on the channel number uh five or industrial designer: help . marketing: if you already programmed it . project manager: yeah . marketing: if you want to move it . yeah that should be possible too . project manager: yeah . how do you call that ? marketing: yeah how do you call that ? mm ? wait you you should be able to to browse through a list or something , which w displays all the all the values , all the channels which are possible . project manager: channels ? yeah . marketing: i mean like one to f thirty of or ninety or whatever . project manager: ninety nine or something . yeah . marketing: just browse through it and then um in some kind of way see if it if it if it is programmed . project manager: s swap channels ? can i call it that ? marketing: yeah . swap channels . project manager: swap 's good option . okay . uh other functions ? marketing: so you most of the time if you if you swap it s uh let 's say for example you have uh r_t_l_ five on on channel five . and veronica on channel eight and you want to move veronica to channel five , most of the times you override the previous uh the previous one . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . well that 's 's up to uh mister user interface designer . user interface: marketing: yeah . it 's it 's pretty uh user interface: okay . marketing: yeah i mean you have to look on on the menu industrial designer: working design . doch . project manager: also . marketing: on the tv . project manager: that 's you 're industrial designer: he only has to figure out how it has to look . project manager: yeah but also , which buttons you have to press to get a certain result ? industrial designer: and how user interface: yeah . industrial designer: to use project manager: and the working design was to specify how ph the physical interation between the components was , as i believe . industrial designer: yeah okay . but you did your homework . but um yeah . okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: or or is it too hard to to ju to just do it all on your remote ? to programme the channels ? project manager: no i do n't think so . industrial designer: no no . it should be able to do any remote . user interface: no that 's marketing: uh . project manager: but i think the communication with the television is difficult . but that 's not our part . marketing: yeah . project manager: we do n't have to design a protocol so marketing: no . industrial designer: no . project manager: marketing: that 's true . that 's true . industrial designer: thank god . user interface: okay marketing: yeah . so we have a figure a figure out a way to to do that easily . i mean th the autoseek is is not a problem . project manager: no that 's the marketing: i mean you uh you uh current channel and then then it just says , uh on which number do you want to save this , and you just press a number on your remote , and then say confirm , okay , and then it 's it 's saved . it 's easier , it 's it 's it 's harder to , if you have already programmed it , to to swap . project manager: yeah . so but marketing: so we have to think of something for that . project manager: um the user interface designer can design a menu for all these function i put them on the marketing: yeah k kind of structure into layers . user interface: on the uh yeah can you i make a a map with with all the yeah 'cause it 's now there are lots and lots of documents project manager: . yeah . yeah i can . user interface: and project manager: i 'll just try to reorganise uh things . um marketing: so project manager: so you design the basic function menu for the lcd screen ? uh um i think marketing: and and the layout of of the thing itself . project manager: th i think the yeah the layout of the screen user interface: the the layout of the remote control ? project manager: and i think you can concentrate more on the button placement and the placement of the uh screen itself on the marketing: . user interface: is n't that more the the u uh the user interface part ? project manager: . no i d i think that 's more in . industrial designer: uh all the functional uh aspects of the remote i think are in my department . marketing: maybe more on project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i have to know what it has to do , so if you wan na you know the changing the channels kind of s thing is , i have to integrate that in the design . project manager: okay . so he 's layout and you 're function . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: form function okay . industrial designer: i think that 's a that 's a good separation . marketing: okay . user interface: but do i have to to uh to yeah to make the the menu layout also ? or project manager: yeah . user interface: are you going to do that ? industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah . yeah i guess so . user interface: yeah ? i i 'm going to make project manager: i think i that 's your department yes , user interface: yeah o okay . project manager: because w he already knows what industrial designer: yeah we have to kind of work together . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: if if i make the the the yeah the menu like , i have to state which function has to be in the menu , project manager: but we 're not allowed . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: and then you have to decide , it 's , in a in a way that b is user-friendly . user interface: yeah . okay . y you you are going to make a list of what functions are uh are going to to be on the the screen , the menu screen . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and i 'm going to make a a nice menu uh with with pages and yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think yeah . marketing: with with some l with some layers in it . project manager: yeah and also make clear which buttons to press to get certain result , marketing: so some menus . project manager: because that 's always the difficulty . marketing: yeah . project manager: every device has its own user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . well i guess this this button , the the the okay , project manager: menu okay . marketing: menu okay . or you can incorporate two uh difference uh different buttons . uh like uh for your mobile phone . um so this is only for to get in the menu , or to exit it . project manager: mm . marketing: and then one to confirm , and one to go one step back . project manager: back . yeah . marketing: so it 's like the the save button on your your mobile phone , if you have a nokia or like that . or the or the no button . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: to go one step back you it 's only two extra buttons , user interface: yeah . w we marketing: but if it if it 's very clear that they are for the screen user interface: uh i think we have to to group , to make two groups . um the one group for the for the display , and one group for the basic functions , and industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah but they 're incorporated ? up and down is user interface: yeah okay but we we have a m marketing: yeah because this this is used for both . user interface: yeah but maybe that 's that 's not uh project manager: smart ? user interface: yeah if you 're if you 're z zapping uh with your uh yeah remote control , you can press the the menu button , and then you are suddenly into the the yeah the display . marketing: into your screen . okay . so you industrial designer: you wan na separate uh marketing: l should leave the menu button out of here . user interface: yeah . marketing: and and just put it under the screen , the screen project manager: put it on top . user interface: yeah j just just group group the yeah we make these the advanced functions and these the basic functions . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so we make a yeah a line between them . marketing: yeah . but we should place the screen on top , right ? project manager: well user interface: f oh yeah . okay yeah we swap uh okay . project manager: but that 's uh j jurgen 's department . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . so we make it a marketing: yeah . you just you just find out and . project manager: you just make the layout . you user interface: okay . project manager: do we do the extra two buttons or not ? user interface: uh industrial designer: i think you should . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: it 's easier . if you put too many functions in one button it gets confusing . project manager: yeah okay . that 's true . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . so we have a a menu button and a s project manager: and to , okay and back , also . user interface: okay . okay and back button . marketing: yeah . yeah , or confirm and back . whatever . project manager: and of course the four arrows . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: no . project manager: but those are still y doubly used . both the lcd marketing: should we save this picture , or or you know what it looks like ? user interface: yeah i 'm i 'm not s clear about uh the the extra two buttons . we have a menu button and project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . that that just to to activate the screen . so user interface: that 's the the one with the yeah okay . project manager: menu button access the menu in the lcd screen . marketing: and then with these buttons , woa , y you navigate . project manager: you can navigate . user interface: okay . project manager: but you can also navigate the channels . and the volume . user interface: okay so that that 's not uh yeah that those are project manager: those are both both user interface: multifunctional . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: hey is it interesting for users if we put led lights under the buttons ? so that if you uh press on the menu function that only the buttons that are used for the menu are ligh li light up . marketing: yeah . l l litten up yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: oh five minutes . marketing: that 's very good idea . industrial designer: n marketing: alright . project manager: light uh marketing: yeah that 's a good idea because then it becomes clear which buttons are active now , which you can use . industrial designer: yeah and then it 's also easier to integrate several functions in one button . project manager: yeah sure . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: um marketing: so project manager: anything else ? marketing: those buttons are are lit up . industrial designer: i think not . marketing: but just one thing . should we use those two ? them ? or only this to to scroll ? project manager: i 've marketing: and then use the two functional buttons to confirm , to go into something ? oh no we have to use this to adjust some some bars ? project manager: volume . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah keep it optional 'cause maybe you can you know go left to right and up and down in a in one menu . marketing: yeah . and maybe we should use this also as an okay button , still . and then just only a back button . project manager: well we have those buttons . we use all four . user interface: no industrial designer: the pr the problem with the okay button in the middle is , sorry project manager: yeah okay go ahead . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: sorry , uh is uh if you 're pressing up and down , you can easily press the okay once you , when you 're not already at your choice . user interface: yeah . so maybe make one uh one okay button and and one navigation button . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah that was already decided . marketing: and one back . user interface: yeah the with with the the channel and the volume uh yeah m a multifunctional navigation button . project manager: okay that 's what we decided earlier on . user interface: yeah okay . yeah . project manager: right okay . so marketing: yeah . industrial designer: you wan na close down huh ? project manager: yeah i wan na close down . user interface: project manager: i have to , sorry . marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's not because i do n't like you but marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that 's okay . project manager: yh we have lunch break , industrial designer: already . project manager: and then we can work for thirty minutes , and i have to write very fast to make the minich min minutes . and then uh we 'll see marketing: yeah . industrial designer: alright . how m how long is the lunchbreak ? project manager: i do n't know . nobody told me . marketing: we have to ask . user interface: but do we have to write uh to write down uh the our stuff now ? or first lunchbreak ? industrial designer: okay . project manager: no i th believe there 's first lunch break . user interface: because i i 've everything in my head now so project manager: yeah . or you can just industrial designer: mm . user interface: okay . project manager: yeah ? user interface: yeah . project manager: 'kay . marketing: yes . project manager: marketing: project manager: i think you can put uh the laptop back in the room and user interface: 'kay . industrial designer: this is user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yes sir . marketing: time pressure . project manager: 'kay . yeah it 's a lot of pressure . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . sorry for my uh not finished presentation uh . project manager: that 's okay . oh yeah . user interface: oh no no . marketing: yeah we 'll kick your ass later . no . uh . project manager: industrial designer: bring it on . project manager: i do n't know if it works but it should be saved . marketing: aye y you saved it ? does it save automatically in the project folder ? or project manager: yeah . it 's uh marketing: okay . we 'll see . project manager: should be here . smart board . marketing: just put back my laptop . project manager: do n't know if you can use it but marketing: alright . user interface: okay . marketing: yeah you can open it with the picture preview or stuff like that . user interface: and uh we have to make uh some maps with uh with the all the the data we uh gathered . project manager: yeah . i try to organise it by these three . user interface: . it 's it 's just my own map so i put everything into the project manager: yeah yeah yeah . marketing: project manager: i do n't really mind . i just put the minutes here and we 'll see . user interface: but you got some extra information uh project manager: yeah that 's in the functional design uh folder . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: yeah . yeah that 's just basically what i just showed . user interface: but where do you did you get the newsflash ? project manager: yeah . yeah i got it by user interface: you 're the only one uh okay . project manager: yeah . i 'm gon na get kicked if i do n't do it so marketing: internet . user interface: okay . industrial designer: alright . marketing: alright . user interface: yeah . project manager: make me proud . industrial designer: i 'll try to . marketing: industrial designer: so first we have a lunchbreak now ? user interface: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: alright . project manager: i believe so . just ask . industrial designer: mm-hmm . i dunno where she .

according to the marketing , the research finding showed that the current users are older than forty , which is to say that they have to aim the consumers at below forty as long as they want a new market . as for the user interface , he thought an extra function was needed to hide all the features and display a clear menu . of course , some fashionable functions would also be welcomed . then the group came to realize that it would be really hard to compromise between the functions and the fashion .

what did the marketing think about previous remote controls when giving his presentation on the design , the functions and the target users ? </s> industrial designer: . user interface: hello . 'kay . project manager: you all saw the newsflash ? industrial designer: it 's project manager: or you got the same message ? marketing: yeah i i just saw it one minute ago . project manager: yeah sorry . industrial designer: i do n't know . marketing: when i uh industrial designer: i did n't see it yet i think . user interface: newsflash ? d did i miss something ? marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . yeah i received an email so i thought i i ca n't mail you so i thought i 'd just drop it in the folder , but marketing: yeah pretty much . industrial designer: hey what 's wrong with my computer ? user interface: okay . project manager: is it unlocked ? user interface: no . industrial designer: . marketing: mm . yeah that 's my presentation . project manager: woah . i uh kind of opened it . user interface: mm . industrial designer: huh ? marketing: mm ? project manager: uh industrial designer: what the marketing: oh right . user interface: i think you have to uh change your desktop uh project manager: okay . marketing: user interface: size . marketing: ooh . project manager: 'kay . everybody ready ? industrial designer: not really . marketing: well industrial designer: sorry . project manager: no no no . yes yes yes . user interface: computer is uh not functioning ? marketing: alright . project manager: okay . industrial designer: okay . where do i find this ? i 'm not so g display huh ? user interface: uh display . marketing: user interface: and then uh settings ? industrial designer: appearance ? marketing: huh . user interface: mm i 'm not sure i . marketing: you read the newsflash ? project manager: 'kay . can we get started user interface: no . industrial designer: no what was it about ? marketing: hmm . project manager: or is there some pressing issue ? industrial designer: yeah my computer is not functioning properly . project manager: oh no pressing . user interface: marketing: project manager: did you plug in the power cable when you come back ? industrial designer: yeah yeah . no but my screen is reduced in size . project manager: yeah . that 's difficult . yeah . user interface: marketing: what ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: feedback . marketing: hmm . user interface: okay . project manager: industrial designer: okay . marketing: alt delete . project manager: yeah . user interface: format . project manager: format save . marketing: . so it does n't draw the attention away . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: this is dreadful . user interface: i made uh uh my own map . project manager: oh yeah sure . industrial designer: no not this , but the task . user interface: it 's a project manager: you have playstation also ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . no that 's okay . no i just flapped it , closed it , took it here and then this happened . ah . uh where was it ? in settings ? okay . alright . thank you . project manager: huh . industrial designer: do you guys like your tasks ? user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i spent a lot of time thinking about what i was gon na do and then a couple of minutes before this i get my function you know the information that i need . user interface: yeah wa wa you actually yeah . but it it 's not clear what you have to to to type uh type in your presentation . industrial designer: so frustrating . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so marketing: yeah . i i had a whole idea and then just was typing it and then oh . i have to do that so switch . industrial designer: yeah yeah exactly . this presentation is mainly based on my own ideas 'cause i had n't time to intergrate tha the information yet so user interface: yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: really annoying . project manager: okay . so there we are again . marketing: by your humble p_m_ . project manager: yeah . marketing: project manager: okay this is the agenda . um we have three presentations , i heard . marketing: user interface: really . project manager: yeah really . so who wants to start ? marketing: yeah that 's fine . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we have to start it right away ? project manager: yeah . uh this is you ? marketing: functional ? yeah functional requirements . project manager: 'kay . marketing: alright . i 'm gon na talk about functional requirements . um well uh some research has be done uh has been done . uh observing of one hundred uh subjects in the usability lab using a remote control . uh and they also filled in a questionnaire . the findings were um , well you can see them for yourself . they disliked the look-and-feel of current remotes controls . users think they 're ugly . um they do not match the the operating behaviour of the users . so they they d they do n't match what they want to have on it . um they are often lost somewhere in the room . um it takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control . and they 're bad for r_s_i_ . i do n't know uh how a user can reach that but okay . um industrial designer: ts marketing: there is also uh was also some research on uh the most relevant and and and irrelevant uh f functions . uh most irrelevant and less used were audio settings , mono , stereo , uh pitch , bass . um screen settings for brightness and colour and stuff like that . um but they are used . i mean the industrial designer: so they do need to be in the project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah they do need to be on the on the remote control . industrial designer: alright . marketing: i mean if you ca n't control the the sound settings i mean if you dislike a very uh loud bass or something , you you need to change that . project manager: often . marketing: so um yeah we have to . industrial designer: by the way my tv does n't have an equ equaliser but marketing: we c we c yeah i mean w we ca n't project manager: next generation does . industrial designer: okay . marketing: my my tv has , industrial designer: no . alright . marketing: but we we can leave them uh away . uh most relevant , uh most used functions , uh they speak for themselves i guess . uh power button , uh channel , volume selection . uh teletext but we can skip that because i saw the newsflash , and teletext is so outdated that it it 's i should not be used uh any more in the future . project manager: n not used anymore . marketing: so forget this one . user interface: okay . marketing: uh channel settings , so for programming uh your channels in in the right order . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: by the way where did you guys get that newsflash from ? user interface: yeah . i was wondering uh industrial designer: i did n't get anything . marketing: yeah , on on the project uh project manager: yeah . not by mail . i receiv the mail but you do n't . so user interface: but you you 've got more information than uh . marketing: no so it 's a text file n in the project folder . so teletext can be skipped . project manager: that 's in the presentation , so industrial designer: alright . marketing: um there was some research on new features in a remote control . uh about an lcd screen uh and speech recognition . well we got an update for the for the audience . or the the the targeted group . so it 's above forty i guess . project manager: uh below i believe . marketing: the new product ? or below project manager: yeah below forty . marketing: because that 's pretty relevant . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: i thought i read a project manager: our current customers are in the age group forty plus . marketing: yeah ? project manager: and the new product should reach new markets , which is the customers below forty . marketing: below ? okay well user interface: but where did you get uh that information ? project manager: that 's in a newsflash . marketing: that 's that 's in the newsfla project manager: user interface: okay . marketing: okay that 's a good to know . um because you see see a clear distinction between the age groups , concerning the features . user interface: yeah . marketing: i mean uh above forty people are not so interested uh not so interested in a screen or speech recognition . uh but below that age they uh they pretty much are . so i think we can build that in . um yeah well we can skip this part as well , because i thought i read above forty so we could skip the features , but we just have to build them in because uh they find it very interesting . um well we have to keep all the classic functions but make the buttons as user-friendly as possible . um and and also there 's so not only the design of the bus uh buttons but o how you can push them , and stuff like that . so the physical uh aspect of it . um and i think and certainly for for the for the lower age groups , uh nice design , which uh does not make the remote control in your room . user interface: yeah . marketing: it 's it 's actually a part of your interior , of of your design in your room . so it 's the people can say , well what 's that , well that 's my remote control , so it 's d it has to look nice and feel nice , and and have all the functions that uh project manager: yeah . but it also needs to have corporate identity . marketing: yeah so the the logo has to be project manager: present and the colours . marketing: uh present yeah , and the colours as well . project manager: so we ca n't change much of that . industrial designer: do we have uh yeah . marketing: yeah so but i i do n't think that 's that 's a problem because the thing has to have a colour anyway , and most of the times there is a brand present on it . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . yeah . yeah . marketing: so i think that 's not gon na gon na affect it very uh very much . project manager: okay . marketing: well that are the the consequences uh on a marketing uh part . project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: alright . marketing: yes . user interface: okay . project manager: it 's open already so you can use to marketing: . project manager: find yours . user interface: mm . it 's project manager: f_ five . user interface: f_ five . okay . project manager: go jurgen . user interface: oh . what is this ? marketing: user interface: oh no . industrial designer: user interface: how do i uh project manager: you pressed alt f_ four ? user interface: no no no . i pressed the mouse button . project manager: oh great . user interface: industrial designer: it 's th that 's the self-destruct button . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . okay . project manager: uh maybe you can do it from your computer so talk us through it . user interface: okay . um if you all go stand around uh marketing: yeah . just yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: computer industrial designer: alright . marketing: sure . user interface: um project manager: that 's nice . user interface: no . project manager: f_ five . yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: alright . user interface: i uh had uh two examples . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um this one is the the yeah the advanced one with a lot of options and functions and buttons . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: this the easy one marketing: yeah . user interface: i think we have to to combine them . and uh yeah merge the best functions of all examples . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . user interface: um but yeah the the age is uh under forty ? project manager: the mm yeah . marketing: yeah and and and marketing research stated that that that kind of users are not afraid of of a lot of functions . user interface: so we okay so so we have the option for more functions . marketing: so not not too much but yeah . user interface: um yeah . industrial designer: and we do have to integrate the screen and the the speech marketing: and the speech recognition yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: alright . user interface: uh yeah this this one we can remove for kids . it 's just only for adults so uh we can uh use some advanced options . but marketing: yeah from age of sixteen so yeah . user interface: yeah but i prefer we we uh use the the basic options uh yeah . we have to to make them very easy so for just uh zapping around the channels you can just push one button . marketing: mm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: but if you want to to use your your video recorder or something else , you should use use an uh an advanced option . marketing: yeah but uh the the newsflash also stated that it should control only one device , only your television . user interface: okay one device . project manager: yeah . so n it 's very easy . user interface: okay . i did n't see . marketing: so w project manager: now yeah it 's okay . user interface: okay and i also uh yeah . w yeah . marketing: so there are not extra options in this case , but uh project manager: okay . user interface: we have to make it fashionable . like you uh said uh before . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: uh yeah the basic functions . um yeah only use a extra function if they are really needed . project manager: yeah so maybe you can hide them or something . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah well what what we can do with the screen is is all the the configuration options , you can put that in the screen . project manager: yeah you make a screen menu or something . marketing: and the and the yeah screen menu to to to uh to do that , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: and then the basic function just on the device itself . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so it looks very simple and all the advanced features are hidden in the screen , uh with a clear menu . project manager: yeah and the other oth other uh functionality is the screen . user interface: yeah . project manager: what does the screen do ? user interface: did i uh industrial designer: alright . marketing: uh . what are wh project manager: yeah . it 's low power . user interface: did i break it ? marketing: what . project manager: so what does the screen do ? they said they needed it but what does it do ? what do they want with the screen ? user interface: for for the advanced functions i think . project manager: yeah that 's what we make it up . marketing: yeah well it yeah it did n't project manager: so but what did the marketing marketing: it did n't say what they want to do with the screen . project manager: no . marketing: well i , my guess is it 's it 's pretty handy for advanced uh advanced functions . project manager: yeah okay it 's handy . with no predefined uh user interface: like searching for channels and industrial designer: ah look . marketing: yeah searching for channels , programming them . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we have your uh oh never mind . project manager: we 're back online . user interface: okay . that 's uh i 'm al i 'm almost finished so project manager: okay . user interface: um the we have to to to watch out for the i if we make it f very fashionable , it it the functional functionality will go down . so we have to make uh a compromise between functionality and fashional fashionable project manager: mm-hmm . content and form . user interface: yeah content and form . industrial designer: . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: now that that was uh was the end . project manager: that was the end . okay . user interface: yes . industrial designer: okay . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: well my presentation is a bit uh sucky . marketing: well you can improvise right ? project manager: uh which one is it ? technical functions ? industrial designer: yeah a little bit . project manager: this one ? industrial designer: uh no . no no . project manager: functional requirements ? industrial designer: yeah i think that would be it then . project manager: no . user interface: project manager: you did n't put it in ? or industrial designer: i have no idea . marketing: so we we can go for industrial designer: that w . project manager: it 's not really english . industrial designer: let me check . i know . project manager: uh kick off . oh working design i got it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so we can go for the look-and-feel of the the left example , and then a screen on top of it . project manager: here you go . industrial designer: alright how do i uh skip pages ? project manager: just uh press uh yeah . yeah . industrial designer: the keys yeah ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: alright . um yeah well i was working on this before i got my information . so i was just working off the top of my head and using my colin common knowledge about uh remote controls . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: industrial designer: and well the info on the website which came too late . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um so i did n't really know what kind of functions we had to put into it yet . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so uh uh this is basically an overview of what we discussed in our last uh meeting . those were my uh starting points . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh i was working on a s yeah on a schedule , and i was supposed to do it like this . but um yeah then uh the information came and it was kind of exact with all the steps in the remote control that i had to follow , so i was trying to organise them for myself . project manager: marketing: project manager: mm . industrial designer: and then make the project manager: design yeah . industrial designer: the design , a the actual design , marketing: design ? yeah . industrial designer: but i never came around to do that . so i 'm not really sure what i 'm supposed to say about it . marketing: okay . industrial designer: i mean everything speaks for itself i guess . mean you press a button um the it tru goes , it sends a signal to a chip , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: which uh translates it into infrared signal of certin spatial frequencies . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah frequency . yeah . industrial designer: and uh or temporal fr frequencies actually . and then uh through a uh transformer , it the signal gets boosted and then sent to the to the receiver on the tv project manager: yeah decoder . industrial designer: and the tv will translate it into a function . um yeah well this was actually all i got around to do . project manager: blank . yeah okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i mean i dunno if i 'm too slow for this stuff , but uh project manager: work harder . marketing: user interface: okay shou should we make a list of the of all the functions we want uh marketing: industrial designer: yeah . whatever . project manager: yeah . uh marketing: yeah we want to incorporate in uh into it . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'kay . um for those that did n't see yet um the basic new requirements of the management were no teletext , only for tv . uh it should be designed for a use g uh group below forty , but i do n't think it 's w wrong if we can uh target the current customer group as well . marketing: mm . project manager: and uh the corporate identity should be clear in the design of the remote control . and we have to decide on the functions , and on the , let 's see what was it , uh the target group . we have to make be clear what that is . marketing: group of users , or project manager: yeah users . marketing: because it says below forty i mean . project manager: yeah so i think it 's easy but marketing: i guess that 's that 's the tar yeah uh or male and female user interface: but uh it 's it 's also for children or just uh project manager: yeah it 's below forty so we can decide where to marketing: uh six the marketing research started on s on the age of sixteen . user interface: okay . okay . marketing: sixteen to twenty five , twenty five to thirty five , thirty five to forty five , something like that . project manager: okay . so below forty is okay . marketing: so um project manager: but we need an lower level which to s uh focus . marketing: how do you mean ? project manager: so is it from sixteen to forty ? is it from twenty to forty ? is it from thirty ? marketing: uh sixteen to forty . project manager: yeah ? 'kay . user interface: yeah . we we have to marketing: well i i guess people of sixteen are are quite used to technology . project manager: yeah . marketing: so they they adapt to it pretty soon i guess . user interface: and if we have a larger public we have uh yeah more options to to uh sell our product . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah so what we might wan na do is uh yeah cust i have customised the screen functions , if you know what i mean . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: the uh younger users are more acquainted with these kind of machines so they can use more advanced functions . but maybe elderly people do n't understand it so well , so they need a simpler remote . project manager: design . mm . industrial designer: and yeah that you can choose what the design displays , or wha whatever . user interface: yeah that 's that 's why uh i wanted to to make yeah two uh different uh yeah groups of functions . the the simple functions for for the the whole public , and the the advanced options for the younger people yeah who are more yeah experienced with uh industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . and maybe y industrial designer: experienced yeah . marketing: but uh all incorporated in the screen or or just on the remote itself ? user interface: na i w i should uh put uh the the yeah the extra advanced options on the onto the onscreen display . marketing: yeah project manager: yeah . marketing: like like you have a visual of the of the brightness with with a kind of sliding bar and a bus and and stuff like that for sound and and vis and and visuals ? project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . so is you should have a menu for all the the functions you do n't use regular and which are marketing: uh you can make a if you make a drawing . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . aye yeah . marketing: uh uh . project manager: shall i uh marketing: uh black 's okay . and draw it very big . project manager: yeah . it 's okay . marketing: oh . yeah . project manager: no , it does n't have line control , so marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah we get the marketing: yeah well , this is basically uh it 's industrial designer: the remote ? project manager: the remote , yeah ? marketing: alright the remote ? um well usually the power button is on top i guess . project manager: basic . is on top . which should be easy , easily reached with the thumb . marketing: yeah so it should fit right in into your hand . user interface: yeah . l left top or right uh top ? project manager: t i s should said right . marketing: right . right . user interface: yeah , right . industrial designer: right top . marketing: i most people are right-handed so user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah definitely . marketing: maybe left-handed special addition , but okay . user interface: marketing: if you put it like like here . or something . i dunno . um then you could put a screen , like on a mobile phone , also on top i guess . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah but if you are using the the normal functions , the the basic functions , you normally press them on the u yeah . project manager: do the also with the thumb . so it should be a little bit longer so that you can put your uh thumb , also reach the middle . or you should screen at the bottom and then you can see it very clearly . marketing: okay so y yeah you have you have it in your hand , and the screen is below , and the buttons are in the middle . project manager: you you need to be able to hold it so user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: okay for example if you put the screen here , it 's more about the functions now than the than the layout . project manager: yeah okay that 's true . layout . that 's for the marketing: does n't work too well . it 's uh it 's bent . project manager: user interface: project manager: i ca n't help it . marketing: . user interface: you broke it . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: . project manager: man . marketing: right . project manager: yeah okay . marketing: okay you get it . uh for example if y if you put all the project manager: marketing: right . project manager: you want the normal piece of paper ? and you have a pen ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and might be easier huh ? marketing: maybe this . kind of works . project manager: yeah ? marketing: like if you have like uh ten buttons for for all the for all the channels , project manager: mm-hmm . uh . marketing: um and here one for for project manager: and the for flipping up and down . user interface: yeah yeah . and volume control . marketing: yeah that that usually uh like here , here , here , here . industrial designer: yeah i project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so you have up and down for the for the channels , and left and right for the volume uh project manager: and left to right . and those can also be used for the menu . industrial designer: yeah exactly . i thought but this is really your department , that we need just the functional display and four cursors . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah okay but this is function so if you can use them for multiple things marketing: and you you have industrial designer: and marketing: most of the time you have one button in the middle . it says menu , industrial designer: yeah okay . project manager: for the menu . yeah . marketing: and then if you press it you the screen gets activated and then you can use these buttons to scroll up and down and left and right to go into functon project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and then just project manager: yeah . marketing: mo most of the time this menu button is also like okay , to to confirm a a kind of action . project manager: yeah . marketing: so you scroll into it , okay . you select a function like v like uh bass . you just adjust it with these two buttons . project manager: yeah . marketing: then okay to confirm , and then uh on on each on each screen there 's there should be an option to go back to a to a upper level . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and then finally say okay , exit . or or one button to exit it . user interface: yeah . marketing: uh in one time i dunno , that 's not really my department . user interface: and do we need a a logo on our uh remote control , or marketing: that 's more your uh your department to to uh to project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . but it should be if the screen is here then the logo should be like on on top , user interface: on the left uh top yeah . marketing: yeah . i mean it 's uh project manager: yeah but that depends on where you put the screen . user interface: okay . project manager: but it 's essential that there is a screen . marketing: yeah . yeah i mean the position of the screen is also more essential than i mean we we look where we have space left and then put the logo over there . project manager: yeah . and for the speech uh recognition part , if we want to incorporate that , we need a microphone . marketing: but um yeah so it should be i mean if you have it in your hand here , should be on top somewhere , maybe . project manager: yeah . this would be uh industrial designer: why did we wan na put the display in the bottom ? marketing: i mean i project manager: no that 's not s sure so industrial designer: okay . marketing: that 's not sure project manager: uh we need a display . marketing: but it 's user interface: yeah may maybe because you 're industrial designer: because yeah if you use the functions your hand will block the display . user interface: yeah okay but only for the basic functi if you 're going to use the advanced option , you 're going to press the the menu button and then yeah . marketing: yeah i mean a screen on top looks more lo logical to me . industrial designer: normal for logical t project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: also because people use m mobile phones and they also have the screen on top . project manager: yeah they 're used to it . user interface: okay the yeah . that 's possible . marketing: so you you just have to reach a little bit for the power button . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i mean if you grab it . industrial designer: on once it 's on it 's on . you do n't need the power button . marketing: but most most of the times if a if if a tv 's on standby people just press a channel to put it on . user interface: yeah , okay . okay we put it on top . marketing: so we put this on top , and then make the corporate logo user interface: yeah . marketing: like over here . r_r_ . and j and the microphone , i mean it can be very small . if you look at your mobile phones are some stripes , little little holes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: maybe on the top or even on the side . project manager: marketing: yeah maybe on the side . i mean if the if the microphone is good . project manager: yeah but then it 's possible that you cover it with your hand so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: true . marketing: yeah okay . so on the on the top is better . project manager: i think that top is the best option . industrial designer: but if you uh if you hold the ma the remote like this , if you put it on the top on the side project manager: yeah okay . industrial designer: i dunno . should be able to work . marketing: yeah . . project manager: depends on the sensitivity of the microphone , but i think that 's okay . industrial designer: never mind . can we leave this up to you ? user interface: marketing: yeah it does n't matter that much . so but um the screen is on top ? which functions did we have left ? i mean this is basically numbers , volume , uh channel up and down . project manager: volume . up . channel up and down , and the control of the advanced options . marketing: screen is over there . project manager: so maybe it , we should decide what advanced options we want to put in the lcd screen . user interface: yeah . if we marketing: yeah . yeah . that 's uh that 's a good one . industrial designer: yeah so we we needed to integrate the sound and uh and image options right ? project manager: yeah so sounds ? industrial designer: like uh bass uh marketing: yeah . sound ? industrial designer: so we need kind of an equaliser . if you marketing: yeah . equaliser . so if you have sound but not too advanced . i mean most tvs use only treble and bass . project manager: yeah user interface: yeah it it 's just a remote control so project manager: and they 're industrial designer: yeah treble , middl middle , bass or something . project manager: they 're not used often so user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . it 's uh pretty hard to write . project manager: industrial designer: ah as project manager: yeah just industrial designer: . marketing: mm . okay but you have sound ? project manager: yeah sounds . marketing: yeah just project manager: yeah . marketing: oh y you have digital uh industrial designer: . marketing: better write it down over there yeah . project manager: of course . i 'm just a secretary . marketing: so you have sound . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: coffee ? marketing: uh yeah sound and then within sound i guess treble and bass ? industrial designer: yes please . project manager: treble bass . industrial designer: the mono stereo option ? marketing: yeah . also . project manager: uh industrial designer: and there there was something else also . project manager: pitch i believe , yeah . industrial designer: and then pitch . marketing: pitch . yeah . but pitch , is n't that yeah that 's the the height of the tone . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: the fr yeah the frequency of the tones , yeah . marketing: yeah okay , project manager: yeah and mono stereo . marketing: wh why would you use that ? industrial designer: yeah is n't that that depends on the on the signal of the of what program you 're watching . marketing: if people like talk like uh project manager: mm . marketing: yeah . project manager: and also the tuning part ? marketing: programming part . project manager: yeah programming . so channel programming ? marketing: uh so we have sound , yeah ? channel programming . industrial designer: and yeah in the functionality of the user interface: television uh itself uh industrial designer: no no of the remote uh do do we want uh the buttons to make sound when you press them ? as a confirmation or whatever you know ? user interface: mm . marketing: mm . project manager: mm . industrial designer: i dunno . marketing: i think it g it gets annoying . project manager: yeah . marketing: i mean most mobile phones used that in the beginning but user interface: we we could make an option for it , but uh you can disable s industrial designer: under the a yeah advanced option menu you can put those things . user interface: yeah . but uh the the television itself has also the the options brightness and uh screen colour etcetera . so marketing: yeah . project manager: contrast yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah but people do n't want to sit on their knees on their knees in front of their television with only three buttons then it 's very hard to project manager: mm . no . uh , so contrast , marketing: y yeah contrast and brightness ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: bright , marketing: yeah those are the most used i guess . if you look at your monitor . project manager: uh and the others were in your presentation right ? so i can just copy those ? marketing: well yeah well i guess that these were the only ones , i guess . project manager: okay . it 's easy . industrial designer: but so we have we have tv options , which is all this . marketing: yeah . i will look it up . project manager: yeah the button options and the lcd options . industrial designer: the sound , sound and image . and you have in that uh the indeed the remote control options . project manager: indeed . marketing: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so we need two menus kind of thing . project manager: yeah you have basically a button menu , which you can use directly , uh according to the old principle . industrial designer: uh-huh . project manager: and the lcd options are activated by some some software options , thats communicates with the infrared uh decoder yeah . marketing: yeah with the chip and then i mean project manager: so you you have an additional processor and and software part . marketing: uh yeah . well yeah we have power button , whether that 's present . project manager: compared to o industrial designer: alright . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: channel volume selection present . uh numbers present . yeah a audio settings , mono , stereo , pitch , bass , treble . screen settings , brightness and colour . project manager: l_ s yeah . colour . yeah i i call it contrast . marketing: yeah con contrast is project manager: yeah i make it c colour . marketing: yeah okay , colour and brightness . project manager: yeah . marketing: um and what you say , channel settings or channel programming ? so you you have an option to to start scanning all the frequencies , and when it encounters one , well it shows on your tv . and then you can um project manager: yeah and automatically um mm-hmm . marketing: uh and then you can select uh a number in your remote on which you want to save it . project manager: yeah so i 've g channel program is autoseek ? marketing: yeah , autoseek . project manager: uh name a channel , or marketing: well most tvs automatically display the name , which they get through the cable . project manager: oh they get automatic names , okay . marketing: yeah . so you only have to choose the position on your project manager: . marketing: it only has to match the the channel frequency on your tv , with with the with the position on your tv and and so your remote . project manager: yeah . yeah but can you also say i want f uh veronica on the channel number uh five or industrial designer: help . marketing: if you already programmed it . project manager: yeah . marketing: if you want to move it . yeah that should be possible too . project manager: yeah . how do you call that ? marketing: yeah how do you call that ? mm ? wait you you should be able to to browse through a list or something , which w displays all the all the values , all the channels which are possible . project manager: channels ? yeah . marketing: i mean like one to f thirty of or ninety or whatever . project manager: ninety nine or something . yeah . marketing: just browse through it and then um in some kind of way see if it if it if it is programmed . project manager: s swap channels ? can i call it that ? marketing: yeah . swap channels . project manager: swap 's good option . okay . uh other functions ? marketing: so you most of the time if you if you swap it s uh let 's say for example you have uh r_t_l_ five on on channel five . and veronica on channel eight and you want to move veronica to channel five , most of the times you override the previous uh the previous one . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . well that 's 's up to uh mister user interface designer . user interface: marketing: yeah . it 's it 's pretty uh user interface: okay . marketing: yeah i mean you have to look on on the menu industrial designer: working design . doch . project manager: also . marketing: on the tv . project manager: that 's you 're industrial designer: he only has to figure out how it has to look . project manager: yeah but also , which buttons you have to press to get a certain result ? industrial designer: and how user interface: yeah . industrial designer: to use project manager: and the working design was to specify how ph the physical interation between the components was , as i believe . industrial designer: yeah okay . but you did your homework . but um yeah . okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: or or is it too hard to to ju to just do it all on your remote ? to programme the channels ? project manager: no i do n't think so . industrial designer: no no . it should be able to do any remote . user interface: no that 's marketing: uh . project manager: but i think the communication with the television is difficult . but that 's not our part . marketing: yeah . project manager: we do n't have to design a protocol so marketing: no . industrial designer: no . project manager: marketing: that 's true . that 's true . industrial designer: thank god . user interface: okay marketing: yeah . so we have a figure a figure out a way to to do that easily . i mean th the autoseek is is not a problem . project manager: no that 's the marketing: i mean you uh you uh current channel and then then it just says , uh on which number do you want to save this , and you just press a number on your remote , and then say confirm , okay , and then it 's it 's saved . it 's easier , it 's it 's it 's harder to , if you have already programmed it , to to swap . project manager: yeah . so but marketing: so we have to think of something for that . project manager: um the user interface designer can design a menu for all these function i put them on the marketing: yeah k kind of structure into layers . user interface: on the uh yeah can you i make a a map with with all the yeah 'cause it 's now there are lots and lots of documents project manager: . yeah . yeah i can . user interface: and project manager: i 'll just try to reorganise uh things . um marketing: so project manager: so you design the basic function menu for the lcd screen ? uh um i think marketing: and and the layout of of the thing itself . project manager: th i think the yeah the layout of the screen user interface: the the layout of the remote control ? project manager: and i think you can concentrate more on the button placement and the placement of the uh screen itself on the marketing: . user interface: is n't that more the the u uh the user interface part ? project manager: . no i d i think that 's more in . industrial designer: uh all the functional uh aspects of the remote i think are in my department . marketing: maybe more on project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i have to know what it has to do , so if you wan na you know the changing the channels kind of s thing is , i have to integrate that in the design . project manager: okay . so he 's layout and you 're function . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: form function okay . industrial designer: i think that 's a that 's a good separation . marketing: okay . user interface: but do i have to to uh to yeah to make the the menu layout also ? or project manager: yeah . user interface: are you going to do that ? industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah . yeah i guess so . user interface: yeah ? i i 'm going to make project manager: i think i that 's your department yes , user interface: yeah o okay . project manager: because w he already knows what industrial designer: yeah we have to kind of work together . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: if if i make the the the yeah the menu like , i have to state which function has to be in the menu , project manager: but we 're not allowed . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: and then you have to decide , it 's , in a in a way that b is user-friendly . user interface: yeah . okay . y you you are going to make a list of what functions are uh are going to to be on the the screen , the menu screen . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and i 'm going to make a a nice menu uh with with pages and yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think yeah . marketing: with with some l with some layers in it . project manager: yeah and also make clear which buttons to press to get certain result , marketing: so some menus . project manager: because that 's always the difficulty . marketing: yeah . project manager: every device has its own user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . well i guess this this button , the the the okay , project manager: menu okay . marketing: menu okay . or you can incorporate two uh difference uh different buttons . uh like uh for your mobile phone . um so this is only for to get in the menu , or to exit it . project manager: mm . marketing: and then one to confirm , and one to go one step back . project manager: back . yeah . marketing: so it 's like the the save button on your your mobile phone , if you have a nokia or like that . or the or the no button . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: to go one step back you it 's only two extra buttons , user interface: yeah . w we marketing: but if it if it 's very clear that they are for the screen user interface: uh i think we have to to group , to make two groups . um the one group for the for the display , and one group for the basic functions , and industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah but they 're incorporated ? up and down is user interface: yeah okay but we we have a m marketing: yeah because this this is used for both . user interface: yeah but maybe that 's that 's not uh project manager: smart ? user interface: yeah if you 're if you 're z zapping uh with your uh yeah remote control , you can press the the menu button , and then you are suddenly into the the yeah the display . marketing: into your screen . okay . so you industrial designer: you wan na separate uh marketing: l should leave the menu button out of here . user interface: yeah . marketing: and and just put it under the screen , the screen project manager: put it on top . user interface: yeah j just just group group the yeah we make these the advanced functions and these the basic functions . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so we make a yeah a line between them . marketing: yeah . but we should place the screen on top , right ? project manager: well user interface: f oh yeah . okay yeah we swap uh okay . project manager: but that 's uh j jurgen 's department . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . so we make it a marketing: yeah . you just you just find out and . project manager: you just make the layout . you user interface: okay . project manager: do we do the extra two buttons or not ? user interface: uh industrial designer: i think you should . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: it 's easier . if you put too many functions in one button it gets confusing . project manager: yeah okay . that 's true . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . so we have a a menu button and a s project manager: and to , okay and back , also . user interface: okay . okay and back button . marketing: yeah . yeah , or confirm and back . whatever . project manager: and of course the four arrows . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: no . project manager: but those are still y doubly used . both the lcd marketing: should we save this picture , or or you know what it looks like ? user interface: yeah i 'm i 'm not s clear about uh the the extra two buttons . we have a menu button and project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . that that just to to activate the screen . so user interface: that 's the the one with the yeah okay . project manager: menu button access the menu in the lcd screen . marketing: and then with these buttons , woa , y you navigate . project manager: you can navigate . user interface: okay . project manager: but you can also navigate the channels . and the volume . user interface: okay so that that 's not uh yeah that those are project manager: those are both both user interface: multifunctional . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: hey is it interesting for users if we put led lights under the buttons ? so that if you uh press on the menu function that only the buttons that are used for the menu are ligh li light up . marketing: yeah . l l litten up yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: oh five minutes . marketing: that 's very good idea . industrial designer: n marketing: alright . project manager: light uh marketing: yeah that 's a good idea because then it becomes clear which buttons are active now , which you can use . industrial designer: yeah and then it 's also easier to integrate several functions in one button . project manager: yeah sure . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: um marketing: so project manager: anything else ? marketing: those buttons are are lit up . industrial designer: i think not . marketing: but just one thing . should we use those two ? them ? or only this to to scroll ? project manager: i 've marketing: and then use the two functional buttons to confirm , to go into something ? oh no we have to use this to adjust some some bars ? project manager: volume . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah keep it optional 'cause maybe you can you know go left to right and up and down in a in one menu . marketing: yeah . and maybe we should use this also as an okay button , still . and then just only a back button . project manager: well we have those buttons . we use all four . user interface: no industrial designer: the pr the problem with the okay button in the middle is , sorry project manager: yeah okay go ahead . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: sorry , uh is uh if you 're pressing up and down , you can easily press the okay once you , when you 're not already at your choice . user interface: yeah . so maybe make one uh one okay button and and one navigation button . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah that was already decided . marketing: and one back . user interface: yeah the with with the the channel and the volume uh yeah m a multifunctional navigation button . project manager: okay that 's what we decided earlier on . user interface: yeah okay . yeah . project manager: right okay . so marketing: yeah . industrial designer: you wan na close down huh ? project manager: yeah i wan na close down . user interface: project manager: i have to , sorry . marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's not because i do n't like you but marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that 's okay . project manager: yh we have lunch break , industrial designer: already . project manager: and then we can work for thirty minutes , and i have to write very fast to make the minich min minutes . and then uh we 'll see marketing: yeah . industrial designer: alright . how m how long is the lunchbreak ? project manager: i do n't know . nobody told me . marketing: we have to ask . user interface: but do we have to write uh to write down uh the our stuff now ? or first lunchbreak ? industrial designer: okay . project manager: no i th believe there 's first lunch break . user interface: because i i 've everything in my head now so project manager: yeah . or you can just industrial designer: mm . user interface: okay . project manager: yeah ? user interface: yeah . project manager: 'kay . marketing: yes . project manager: marketing: project manager: i think you can put uh the laptop back in the room and user interface: 'kay . industrial designer: this is user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yes sir . marketing: time pressure . project manager: 'kay . yeah it 's a lot of pressure . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . sorry for my uh not finished presentation uh . project manager: that 's okay . oh yeah . user interface: oh no no . marketing: yeah we 'll kick your ass later . no . uh . project manager: industrial designer: bring it on . project manager: i do n't know if it works but it should be saved . marketing: aye y you saved it ? does it save automatically in the project folder ? or project manager: yeah . it 's uh marketing: okay . we 'll see . project manager: should be here . smart board . marketing: just put back my laptop . project manager: do n't know if you can use it but marketing: alright . user interface: okay . marketing: yeah you can open it with the picture preview or stuff like that . user interface: and uh we have to make uh some maps with uh with the all the the data we uh gathered . project manager: yeah . i try to organise it by these three . user interface: . it 's it 's just my own map so i put everything into the project manager: yeah yeah yeah . marketing: project manager: i do n't really mind . i just put the minutes here and we 'll see . user interface: but you got some extra information uh project manager: yeah that 's in the functional design uh folder . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: yeah . yeah that 's just basically what i just showed . user interface: but where do you did you get the newsflash ? project manager: yeah . yeah i got it by user interface: you 're the only one uh okay . project manager: yeah . i 'm gon na get kicked if i do n't do it so marketing: internet . user interface: okay . industrial designer: alright . marketing: alright . user interface: yeah . project manager: make me proud . industrial designer: i 'll try to . marketing: industrial designer: so first we have a lunchbreak now ? user interface: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: alright . project manager: i believe so . just ask . industrial designer: mm-hmm . i dunno where she .

as per his research , the marketing found that the existing remote controls were not satisfactory in terms of their appearance and feel . in addition , some remote controls were not easy to find and very hard to master . what was also worth mentioning was that some details like the brightness of the screen and the colors needed improvement as well .

why did the project manager agree with the user interface when discussing their presentations on the design , the functions and the target users of the remote control ? </s> industrial designer: . user interface: hello . 'kay . project manager: you all saw the newsflash ? industrial designer: it 's project manager: or you got the same message ? marketing: yeah i i just saw it one minute ago . project manager: yeah sorry . industrial designer: i do n't know . marketing: when i uh industrial designer: i did n't see it yet i think . user interface: newsflash ? d did i miss something ? marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . yeah i received an email so i thought i i ca n't mail you so i thought i 'd just drop it in the folder , but marketing: yeah pretty much . industrial designer: hey what 's wrong with my computer ? user interface: okay . project manager: is it unlocked ? user interface: no . industrial designer: . marketing: mm . yeah that 's my presentation . project manager: woah . i uh kind of opened it . user interface: mm . industrial designer: huh ? marketing: mm ? project manager: uh industrial designer: what the marketing: oh right . user interface: i think you have to uh change your desktop uh project manager: okay . marketing: user interface: size . marketing: ooh . project manager: 'kay . everybody ready ? industrial designer: not really . marketing: well industrial designer: sorry . project manager: no no no . yes yes yes . user interface: computer is uh not functioning ? marketing: alright . project manager: okay . industrial designer: okay . where do i find this ? i 'm not so g display huh ? user interface: uh display . marketing: user interface: and then uh settings ? industrial designer: appearance ? marketing: huh . user interface: mm i 'm not sure i . marketing: you read the newsflash ? project manager: 'kay . can we get started user interface: no . industrial designer: no what was it about ? marketing: hmm . project manager: or is there some pressing issue ? industrial designer: yeah my computer is not functioning properly . project manager: oh no pressing . user interface: marketing: project manager: did you plug in the power cable when you come back ? industrial designer: yeah yeah . no but my screen is reduced in size . project manager: yeah . that 's difficult . yeah . user interface: marketing: what ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: feedback . marketing: hmm . user interface: okay . project manager: industrial designer: okay . marketing: alt delete . project manager: yeah . user interface: format . project manager: format save . marketing: . so it does n't draw the attention away . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: this is dreadful . user interface: i made uh uh my own map . project manager: oh yeah sure . industrial designer: no not this , but the task . user interface: it 's a project manager: you have playstation also ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . no that 's okay . no i just flapped it , closed it , took it here and then this happened . ah . uh where was it ? in settings ? okay . alright . thank you . project manager: huh . industrial designer: do you guys like your tasks ? user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i spent a lot of time thinking about what i was gon na do and then a couple of minutes before this i get my function you know the information that i need . user interface: yeah wa wa you actually yeah . but it it 's not clear what you have to to to type uh type in your presentation . industrial designer: so frustrating . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so marketing: yeah . i i had a whole idea and then just was typing it and then oh . i have to do that so switch . industrial designer: yeah yeah exactly . this presentation is mainly based on my own ideas 'cause i had n't time to intergrate tha the information yet so user interface: yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: really annoying . project manager: okay . so there we are again . marketing: by your humble p_m_ . project manager: yeah . marketing: project manager: okay this is the agenda . um we have three presentations , i heard . marketing: user interface: really . project manager: yeah really . so who wants to start ? marketing: yeah that 's fine . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we have to start it right away ? project manager: yeah . uh this is you ? marketing: functional ? yeah functional requirements . project manager: 'kay . marketing: alright . i 'm gon na talk about functional requirements . um well uh some research has be done uh has been done . uh observing of one hundred uh subjects in the usability lab using a remote control . uh and they also filled in a questionnaire . the findings were um , well you can see them for yourself . they disliked the look-and-feel of current remotes controls . users think they 're ugly . um they do not match the the operating behaviour of the users . so they they d they do n't match what they want to have on it . um they are often lost somewhere in the room . um it takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control . and they 're bad for r_s_i_ . i do n't know uh how a user can reach that but okay . um industrial designer: ts marketing: there is also uh was also some research on uh the most relevant and and and irrelevant uh f functions . uh most irrelevant and less used were audio settings , mono , stereo , uh pitch , bass . um screen settings for brightness and colour and stuff like that . um but they are used . i mean the industrial designer: so they do need to be in the project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah they do need to be on the on the remote control . industrial designer: alright . marketing: i mean if you ca n't control the the sound settings i mean if you dislike a very uh loud bass or something , you you need to change that . project manager: often . marketing: so um yeah we have to . industrial designer: by the way my tv does n't have an equ equaliser but marketing: we c we c yeah i mean w we ca n't project manager: next generation does . industrial designer: okay . marketing: my my tv has , industrial designer: no . alright . marketing: but we we can leave them uh away . uh most relevant , uh most used functions , uh they speak for themselves i guess . uh power button , uh channel , volume selection . uh teletext but we can skip that because i saw the newsflash , and teletext is so outdated that it it 's i should not be used uh any more in the future . project manager: n not used anymore . marketing: so forget this one . user interface: okay . marketing: uh channel settings , so for programming uh your channels in in the right order . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: by the way where did you guys get that newsflash from ? user interface: yeah . i was wondering uh industrial designer: i did n't get anything . marketing: yeah , on on the project uh project manager: yeah . not by mail . i receiv the mail but you do n't . so user interface: but you you 've got more information than uh . marketing: no so it 's a text file n in the project folder . so teletext can be skipped . project manager: that 's in the presentation , so industrial designer: alright . marketing: um there was some research on new features in a remote control . uh about an lcd screen uh and speech recognition . well we got an update for the for the audience . or the the the targeted group . so it 's above forty i guess . project manager: uh below i believe . marketing: the new product ? or below project manager: yeah below forty . marketing: because that 's pretty relevant . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: i thought i read a project manager: our current customers are in the age group forty plus . marketing: yeah ? project manager: and the new product should reach new markets , which is the customers below forty . marketing: below ? okay well user interface: but where did you get uh that information ? project manager: that 's in a newsflash . marketing: that 's that 's in the newsfla project manager: user interface: okay . marketing: okay that 's a good to know . um because you see see a clear distinction between the age groups , concerning the features . user interface: yeah . marketing: i mean uh above forty people are not so interested uh not so interested in a screen or speech recognition . uh but below that age they uh they pretty much are . so i think we can build that in . um yeah well we can skip this part as well , because i thought i read above forty so we could skip the features , but we just have to build them in because uh they find it very interesting . um well we have to keep all the classic functions but make the buttons as user-friendly as possible . um and and also there 's so not only the design of the bus uh buttons but o how you can push them , and stuff like that . so the physical uh aspect of it . um and i think and certainly for for the for the lower age groups , uh nice design , which uh does not make the remote control in your room . user interface: yeah . marketing: it 's it 's actually a part of your interior , of of your design in your room . so it 's the people can say , well what 's that , well that 's my remote control , so it 's d it has to look nice and feel nice , and and have all the functions that uh project manager: yeah . but it also needs to have corporate identity . marketing: yeah so the the logo has to be project manager: present and the colours . marketing: uh present yeah , and the colours as well . project manager: so we ca n't change much of that . industrial designer: do we have uh yeah . marketing: yeah so but i i do n't think that 's that 's a problem because the thing has to have a colour anyway , and most of the times there is a brand present on it . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . yeah . yeah . marketing: so i think that 's not gon na gon na affect it very uh very much . project manager: okay . marketing: well that are the the consequences uh on a marketing uh part . project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: alright . marketing: yes . user interface: okay . project manager: it 's open already so you can use to marketing: . project manager: find yours . user interface: mm . it 's project manager: f_ five . user interface: f_ five . okay . project manager: go jurgen . user interface: oh . what is this ? marketing: user interface: oh no . industrial designer: user interface: how do i uh project manager: you pressed alt f_ four ? user interface: no no no . i pressed the mouse button . project manager: oh great . user interface: industrial designer: it 's th that 's the self-destruct button . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . okay . project manager: uh maybe you can do it from your computer so talk us through it . user interface: okay . um if you all go stand around uh marketing: yeah . just yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: computer industrial designer: alright . marketing: sure . user interface: um project manager: that 's nice . user interface: no . project manager: f_ five . yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: alright . user interface: i uh had uh two examples . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um this one is the the yeah the advanced one with a lot of options and functions and buttons . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: this the easy one marketing: yeah . user interface: i think we have to to combine them . and uh yeah merge the best functions of all examples . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . user interface: um but yeah the the age is uh under forty ? project manager: the mm yeah . marketing: yeah and and and marketing research stated that that that kind of users are not afraid of of a lot of functions . user interface: so we okay so so we have the option for more functions . marketing: so not not too much but yeah . user interface: um yeah . industrial designer: and we do have to integrate the screen and the the speech marketing: and the speech recognition yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: alright . user interface: uh yeah this this one we can remove for kids . it 's just only for adults so uh we can uh use some advanced options . but marketing: yeah from age of sixteen so yeah . user interface: yeah but i prefer we we uh use the the basic options uh yeah . we have to to make them very easy so for just uh zapping around the channels you can just push one button . marketing: mm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: but if you want to to use your your video recorder or something else , you should use use an uh an advanced option . marketing: yeah but uh the the newsflash also stated that it should control only one device , only your television . user interface: okay one device . project manager: yeah . so n it 's very easy . user interface: okay . i did n't see . marketing: so w project manager: now yeah it 's okay . user interface: okay and i also uh yeah . w yeah . marketing: so there are not extra options in this case , but uh project manager: okay . user interface: we have to make it fashionable . like you uh said uh before . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: uh yeah the basic functions . um yeah only use a extra function if they are really needed . project manager: yeah so maybe you can hide them or something . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah well what what we can do with the screen is is all the the configuration options , you can put that in the screen . project manager: yeah you make a screen menu or something . marketing: and the and the yeah screen menu to to to uh to do that , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: and then the basic function just on the device itself . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so it looks very simple and all the advanced features are hidden in the screen , uh with a clear menu . project manager: yeah and the other oth other uh functionality is the screen . user interface: yeah . project manager: what does the screen do ? user interface: did i uh industrial designer: alright . marketing: uh . what are wh project manager: yeah . it 's low power . user interface: did i break it ? marketing: what . project manager: so what does the screen do ? they said they needed it but what does it do ? what do they want with the screen ? user interface: for for the advanced functions i think . project manager: yeah that 's what we make it up . marketing: yeah well it yeah it did n't project manager: so but what did the marketing marketing: it did n't say what they want to do with the screen . project manager: no . marketing: well i , my guess is it 's it 's pretty handy for advanced uh advanced functions . project manager: yeah okay it 's handy . with no predefined uh user interface: like searching for channels and industrial designer: ah look . marketing: yeah searching for channels , programming them . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we have your uh oh never mind . project manager: we 're back online . user interface: okay . that 's uh i 'm al i 'm almost finished so project manager: okay . user interface: um the we have to to to watch out for the i if we make it f very fashionable , it it the functional functionality will go down . so we have to make uh a compromise between functionality and fashional fashionable project manager: mm-hmm . content and form . user interface: yeah content and form . industrial designer: . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: now that that was uh was the end . project manager: that was the end . okay . user interface: yes . industrial designer: okay . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: well my presentation is a bit uh sucky . marketing: well you can improvise right ? project manager: uh which one is it ? technical functions ? industrial designer: yeah a little bit . project manager: this one ? industrial designer: uh no . no no . project manager: functional requirements ? industrial designer: yeah i think that would be it then . project manager: no . user interface: project manager: you did n't put it in ? or industrial designer: i have no idea . marketing: so we we can go for industrial designer: that w . project manager: it 's not really english . industrial designer: let me check . i know . project manager: uh kick off . oh working design i got it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so we can go for the look-and-feel of the the left example , and then a screen on top of it . project manager: here you go . industrial designer: alright how do i uh skip pages ? project manager: just uh press uh yeah . yeah . industrial designer: the keys yeah ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: alright . um yeah well i was working on this before i got my information . so i was just working off the top of my head and using my colin common knowledge about uh remote controls . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: industrial designer: and well the info on the website which came too late . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um so i did n't really know what kind of functions we had to put into it yet . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so uh uh this is basically an overview of what we discussed in our last uh meeting . those were my uh starting points . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh i was working on a s yeah on a schedule , and i was supposed to do it like this . but um yeah then uh the information came and it was kind of exact with all the steps in the remote control that i had to follow , so i was trying to organise them for myself . project manager: marketing: project manager: mm . industrial designer: and then make the project manager: design yeah . industrial designer: the design , a the actual design , marketing: design ? yeah . industrial designer: but i never came around to do that . so i 'm not really sure what i 'm supposed to say about it . marketing: okay . industrial designer: i mean everything speaks for itself i guess . mean you press a button um the it tru goes , it sends a signal to a chip , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: which uh translates it into infrared signal of certin spatial frequencies . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah frequency . yeah . industrial designer: and uh or temporal fr frequencies actually . and then uh through a uh transformer , it the signal gets boosted and then sent to the to the receiver on the tv project manager: yeah decoder . industrial designer: and the tv will translate it into a function . um yeah well this was actually all i got around to do . project manager: blank . yeah okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i mean i dunno if i 'm too slow for this stuff , but uh project manager: work harder . marketing: user interface: okay shou should we make a list of the of all the functions we want uh marketing: industrial designer: yeah . whatever . project manager: yeah . uh marketing: yeah we want to incorporate in uh into it . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'kay . um for those that did n't see yet um the basic new requirements of the management were no teletext , only for tv . uh it should be designed for a use g uh group below forty , but i do n't think it 's w wrong if we can uh target the current customer group as well . marketing: mm . project manager: and uh the corporate identity should be clear in the design of the remote control . and we have to decide on the functions , and on the , let 's see what was it , uh the target group . we have to make be clear what that is . marketing: group of users , or project manager: yeah users . marketing: because it says below forty i mean . project manager: yeah so i think it 's easy but marketing: i guess that 's that 's the tar yeah uh or male and female user interface: but uh it 's it 's also for children or just uh project manager: yeah it 's below forty so we can decide where to marketing: uh six the marketing research started on s on the age of sixteen . user interface: okay . okay . marketing: sixteen to twenty five , twenty five to thirty five , thirty five to forty five , something like that . project manager: okay . so below forty is okay . marketing: so um project manager: but we need an lower level which to s uh focus . marketing: how do you mean ? project manager: so is it from sixteen to forty ? is it from twenty to forty ? is it from thirty ? marketing: uh sixteen to forty . project manager: yeah ? 'kay . user interface: yeah . we we have to marketing: well i i guess people of sixteen are are quite used to technology . project manager: yeah . marketing: so they they adapt to it pretty soon i guess . user interface: and if we have a larger public we have uh yeah more options to to uh sell our product . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah so what we might wan na do is uh yeah cust i have customised the screen functions , if you know what i mean . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: the uh younger users are more acquainted with these kind of machines so they can use more advanced functions . but maybe elderly people do n't understand it so well , so they need a simpler remote . project manager: design . mm . industrial designer: and yeah that you can choose what the design displays , or wha whatever . user interface: yeah that 's that 's why uh i wanted to to make yeah two uh different uh yeah groups of functions . the the simple functions for for the the whole public , and the the advanced options for the younger people yeah who are more yeah experienced with uh industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . and maybe y industrial designer: experienced yeah . marketing: but uh all incorporated in the screen or or just on the remote itself ? user interface: na i w i should uh put uh the the yeah the extra advanced options on the onto the onscreen display . marketing: yeah project manager: yeah . marketing: like like you have a visual of the of the brightness with with a kind of sliding bar and a bus and and stuff like that for sound and and vis and and visuals ? project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . so is you should have a menu for all the the functions you do n't use regular and which are marketing: uh you can make a if you make a drawing . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . aye yeah . marketing: uh uh . project manager: shall i uh marketing: uh black 's okay . and draw it very big . project manager: yeah . it 's okay . marketing: oh . yeah . project manager: no , it does n't have line control , so marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah we get the marketing: yeah well , this is basically uh it 's industrial designer: the remote ? project manager: the remote , yeah ? marketing: alright the remote ? um well usually the power button is on top i guess . project manager: basic . is on top . which should be easy , easily reached with the thumb . marketing: yeah so it should fit right in into your hand . user interface: yeah . l left top or right uh top ? project manager: t i s should said right . marketing: right . right . user interface: yeah , right . industrial designer: right top . marketing: i most people are right-handed so user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah definitely . marketing: maybe left-handed special addition , but okay . user interface: marketing: if you put it like like here . or something . i dunno . um then you could put a screen , like on a mobile phone , also on top i guess . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah but if you are using the the normal functions , the the basic functions , you normally press them on the u yeah . project manager: do the also with the thumb . so it should be a little bit longer so that you can put your uh thumb , also reach the middle . or you should screen at the bottom and then you can see it very clearly . marketing: okay so y yeah you have you have it in your hand , and the screen is below , and the buttons are in the middle . project manager: you you need to be able to hold it so user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: okay for example if you put the screen here , it 's more about the functions now than the than the layout . project manager: yeah okay that 's true . layout . that 's for the marketing: does n't work too well . it 's uh it 's bent . project manager: user interface: project manager: i ca n't help it . marketing: . user interface: you broke it . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: . project manager: man . marketing: right . project manager: yeah okay . marketing: okay you get it . uh for example if y if you put all the project manager: marketing: right . project manager: you want the normal piece of paper ? and you have a pen ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and might be easier huh ? marketing: maybe this . kind of works . project manager: yeah ? marketing: like if you have like uh ten buttons for for all the for all the channels , project manager: mm-hmm . uh . marketing: um and here one for for project manager: and the for flipping up and down . user interface: yeah yeah . and volume control . marketing: yeah that that usually uh like here , here , here , here . industrial designer: yeah i project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so you have up and down for the for the channels , and left and right for the volume uh project manager: and left to right . and those can also be used for the menu . industrial designer: yeah exactly . i thought but this is really your department , that we need just the functional display and four cursors . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah okay but this is function so if you can use them for multiple things marketing: and you you have industrial designer: and marketing: most of the time you have one button in the middle . it says menu , industrial designer: yeah okay . project manager: for the menu . yeah . marketing: and then if you press it you the screen gets activated and then you can use these buttons to scroll up and down and left and right to go into functon project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and then just project manager: yeah . marketing: mo most of the time this menu button is also like okay , to to confirm a a kind of action . project manager: yeah . marketing: so you scroll into it , okay . you select a function like v like uh bass . you just adjust it with these two buttons . project manager: yeah . marketing: then okay to confirm , and then uh on on each on each screen there 's there should be an option to go back to a to a upper level . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and then finally say okay , exit . or or one button to exit it . user interface: yeah . marketing: uh in one time i dunno , that 's not really my department . user interface: and do we need a a logo on our uh remote control , or marketing: that 's more your uh your department to to uh to project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . but it should be if the screen is here then the logo should be like on on top , user interface: on the left uh top yeah . marketing: yeah . i mean it 's uh project manager: yeah but that depends on where you put the screen . user interface: okay . project manager: but it 's essential that there is a screen . marketing: yeah . yeah i mean the position of the screen is also more essential than i mean we we look where we have space left and then put the logo over there . project manager: yeah . and for the speech uh recognition part , if we want to incorporate that , we need a microphone . marketing: but um yeah so it should be i mean if you have it in your hand here , should be on top somewhere , maybe . project manager: yeah . this would be uh industrial designer: why did we wan na put the display in the bottom ? marketing: i mean i project manager: no that 's not s sure so industrial designer: okay . marketing: that 's not sure project manager: uh we need a display . marketing: but it 's user interface: yeah may maybe because you 're industrial designer: because yeah if you use the functions your hand will block the display . user interface: yeah okay but only for the basic functi if you 're going to use the advanced option , you 're going to press the the menu button and then yeah . marketing: yeah i mean a screen on top looks more lo logical to me . industrial designer: normal for logical t project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: also because people use m mobile phones and they also have the screen on top . project manager: yeah they 're used to it . user interface: okay the yeah . that 's possible . marketing: so you you just have to reach a little bit for the power button . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i mean if you grab it . industrial designer: on once it 's on it 's on . you do n't need the power button . marketing: but most most of the times if a if if a tv 's on standby people just press a channel to put it on . user interface: yeah , okay . okay we put it on top . marketing: so we put this on top , and then make the corporate logo user interface: yeah . marketing: like over here . r_r_ . and j and the microphone , i mean it can be very small . if you look at your mobile phones are some stripes , little little holes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: maybe on the top or even on the side . project manager: marketing: yeah maybe on the side . i mean if the if the microphone is good . project manager: yeah but then it 's possible that you cover it with your hand so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: true . marketing: yeah okay . so on the on the top is better . project manager: i think that top is the best option . industrial designer: but if you uh if you hold the ma the remote like this , if you put it on the top on the side project manager: yeah okay . industrial designer: i dunno . should be able to work . marketing: yeah . . project manager: depends on the sensitivity of the microphone , but i think that 's okay . industrial designer: never mind . can we leave this up to you ? user interface: marketing: yeah it does n't matter that much . so but um the screen is on top ? which functions did we have left ? i mean this is basically numbers , volume , uh channel up and down . project manager: volume . up . channel up and down , and the control of the advanced options . marketing: screen is over there . project manager: so maybe it , we should decide what advanced options we want to put in the lcd screen . user interface: yeah . if we marketing: yeah . yeah . that 's uh that 's a good one . industrial designer: yeah so we we needed to integrate the sound and uh and image options right ? project manager: yeah so sounds ? industrial designer: like uh bass uh marketing: yeah . sound ? industrial designer: so we need kind of an equaliser . if you marketing: yeah . equaliser . so if you have sound but not too advanced . i mean most tvs use only treble and bass . project manager: yeah user interface: yeah it it 's just a remote control so project manager: and they 're industrial designer: yeah treble , middl middle , bass or something . project manager: they 're not used often so user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . it 's uh pretty hard to write . project manager: industrial designer: ah as project manager: yeah just industrial designer: . marketing: mm . okay but you have sound ? project manager: yeah sounds . marketing: yeah just project manager: yeah . marketing: oh y you have digital uh industrial designer: . marketing: better write it down over there yeah . project manager: of course . i 'm just a secretary . marketing: so you have sound . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: coffee ? marketing: uh yeah sound and then within sound i guess treble and bass ? industrial designer: yes please . project manager: treble bass . industrial designer: the mono stereo option ? marketing: yeah . also . project manager: uh industrial designer: and there there was something else also . project manager: pitch i believe , yeah . industrial designer: and then pitch . marketing: pitch . yeah . but pitch , is n't that yeah that 's the the height of the tone . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: the fr yeah the frequency of the tones , yeah . marketing: yeah okay , project manager: yeah and mono stereo . marketing: wh why would you use that ? industrial designer: yeah is n't that that depends on the on the signal of the of what program you 're watching . marketing: if people like talk like uh project manager: mm . marketing: yeah . project manager: and also the tuning part ? marketing: programming part . project manager: yeah programming . so channel programming ? marketing: uh so we have sound , yeah ? channel programming . industrial designer: and yeah in the functionality of the user interface: television uh itself uh industrial designer: no no of the remote uh do do we want uh the buttons to make sound when you press them ? as a confirmation or whatever you know ? user interface: mm . marketing: mm . project manager: mm . industrial designer: i dunno . marketing: i think it g it gets annoying . project manager: yeah . marketing: i mean most mobile phones used that in the beginning but user interface: we we could make an option for it , but uh you can disable s industrial designer: under the a yeah advanced option menu you can put those things . user interface: yeah . but uh the the television itself has also the the options brightness and uh screen colour etcetera . so marketing: yeah . project manager: contrast yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah but people do n't want to sit on their knees on their knees in front of their television with only three buttons then it 's very hard to project manager: mm . no . uh , so contrast , marketing: y yeah contrast and brightness ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: bright , marketing: yeah those are the most used i guess . if you look at your monitor . project manager: uh and the others were in your presentation right ? so i can just copy those ? marketing: well yeah well i guess that these were the only ones , i guess . project manager: okay . it 's easy . industrial designer: but so we have we have tv options , which is all this . marketing: yeah . i will look it up . project manager: yeah the button options and the lcd options . industrial designer: the sound , sound and image . and you have in that uh the indeed the remote control options . project manager: indeed . marketing: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so we need two menus kind of thing . project manager: yeah you have basically a button menu , which you can use directly , uh according to the old principle . industrial designer: uh-huh . project manager: and the lcd options are activated by some some software options , thats communicates with the infrared uh decoder yeah . marketing: yeah with the chip and then i mean project manager: so you you have an additional processor and and software part . marketing: uh yeah . well yeah we have power button , whether that 's present . project manager: compared to o industrial designer: alright . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: channel volume selection present . uh numbers present . yeah a audio settings , mono , stereo , pitch , bass , treble . screen settings , brightness and colour . project manager: l_ s yeah . colour . yeah i i call it contrast . marketing: yeah con contrast is project manager: yeah i make it c colour . marketing: yeah okay , colour and brightness . project manager: yeah . marketing: um and what you say , channel settings or channel programming ? so you you have an option to to start scanning all the frequencies , and when it encounters one , well it shows on your tv . and then you can um project manager: yeah and automatically um mm-hmm . marketing: uh and then you can select uh a number in your remote on which you want to save it . project manager: yeah so i 've g channel program is autoseek ? marketing: yeah , autoseek . project manager: uh name a channel , or marketing: well most tvs automatically display the name , which they get through the cable . project manager: oh they get automatic names , okay . marketing: yeah . so you only have to choose the position on your project manager: . marketing: it only has to match the the channel frequency on your tv , with with the with the position on your tv and and so your remote . project manager: yeah . yeah but can you also say i want f uh veronica on the channel number uh five or industrial designer: help . marketing: if you already programmed it . project manager: yeah . marketing: if you want to move it . yeah that should be possible too . project manager: yeah . how do you call that ? marketing: yeah how do you call that ? mm ? wait you you should be able to to browse through a list or something , which w displays all the all the values , all the channels which are possible . project manager: channels ? yeah . marketing: i mean like one to f thirty of or ninety or whatever . project manager: ninety nine or something . yeah . marketing: just browse through it and then um in some kind of way see if it if it if it is programmed . project manager: s swap channels ? can i call it that ? marketing: yeah . swap channels . project manager: swap 's good option . okay . uh other functions ? marketing: so you most of the time if you if you swap it s uh let 's say for example you have uh r_t_l_ five on on channel five . and veronica on channel eight and you want to move veronica to channel five , most of the times you override the previous uh the previous one . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . well that 's 's up to uh mister user interface designer . user interface: marketing: yeah . it 's it 's pretty uh user interface: okay . marketing: yeah i mean you have to look on on the menu industrial designer: working design . doch . project manager: also . marketing: on the tv . project manager: that 's you 're industrial designer: he only has to figure out how it has to look . project manager: yeah but also , which buttons you have to press to get a certain result ? industrial designer: and how user interface: yeah . industrial designer: to use project manager: and the working design was to specify how ph the physical interation between the components was , as i believe . industrial designer: yeah okay . but you did your homework . but um yeah . okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: or or is it too hard to to ju to just do it all on your remote ? to programme the channels ? project manager: no i do n't think so . industrial designer: no no . it should be able to do any remote . user interface: no that 's marketing: uh . project manager: but i think the communication with the television is difficult . but that 's not our part . marketing: yeah . project manager: we do n't have to design a protocol so marketing: no . industrial designer: no . project manager: marketing: that 's true . that 's true . industrial designer: thank god . user interface: okay marketing: yeah . so we have a figure a figure out a way to to do that easily . i mean th the autoseek is is not a problem . project manager: no that 's the marketing: i mean you uh you uh current channel and then then it just says , uh on which number do you want to save this , and you just press a number on your remote , and then say confirm , okay , and then it 's it 's saved . it 's easier , it 's it 's it 's harder to , if you have already programmed it , to to swap . project manager: yeah . so but marketing: so we have to think of something for that . project manager: um the user interface designer can design a menu for all these function i put them on the marketing: yeah k kind of structure into layers . user interface: on the uh yeah can you i make a a map with with all the yeah 'cause it 's now there are lots and lots of documents project manager: . yeah . yeah i can . user interface: and project manager: i 'll just try to reorganise uh things . um marketing: so project manager: so you design the basic function menu for the lcd screen ? uh um i think marketing: and and the layout of of the thing itself . project manager: th i think the yeah the layout of the screen user interface: the the layout of the remote control ? project manager: and i think you can concentrate more on the button placement and the placement of the uh screen itself on the marketing: . user interface: is n't that more the the u uh the user interface part ? project manager: . no i d i think that 's more in . industrial designer: uh all the functional uh aspects of the remote i think are in my department . marketing: maybe more on project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i have to know what it has to do , so if you wan na you know the changing the channels kind of s thing is , i have to integrate that in the design . project manager: okay . so he 's layout and you 're function . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: form function okay . industrial designer: i think that 's a that 's a good separation . marketing: okay . user interface: but do i have to to uh to yeah to make the the menu layout also ? or project manager: yeah . user interface: are you going to do that ? industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah . yeah i guess so . user interface: yeah ? i i 'm going to make project manager: i think i that 's your department yes , user interface: yeah o okay . project manager: because w he already knows what industrial designer: yeah we have to kind of work together . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: if if i make the the the yeah the menu like , i have to state which function has to be in the menu , project manager: but we 're not allowed . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: and then you have to decide , it 's , in a in a way that b is user-friendly . user interface: yeah . okay . y you you are going to make a list of what functions are uh are going to to be on the the screen , the menu screen . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and i 'm going to make a a nice menu uh with with pages and yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think yeah . marketing: with with some l with some layers in it . project manager: yeah and also make clear which buttons to press to get certain result , marketing: so some menus . project manager: because that 's always the difficulty . marketing: yeah . project manager: every device has its own user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . well i guess this this button , the the the okay , project manager: menu okay . marketing: menu okay . or you can incorporate two uh difference uh different buttons . uh like uh for your mobile phone . um so this is only for to get in the menu , or to exit it . project manager: mm . marketing: and then one to confirm , and one to go one step back . project manager: back . yeah . marketing: so it 's like the the save button on your your mobile phone , if you have a nokia or like that . or the or the no button . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: to go one step back you it 's only two extra buttons , user interface: yeah . w we marketing: but if it if it 's very clear that they are for the screen user interface: uh i think we have to to group , to make two groups . um the one group for the for the display , and one group for the basic functions , and industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah but they 're incorporated ? up and down is user interface: yeah okay but we we have a m marketing: yeah because this this is used for both . user interface: yeah but maybe that 's that 's not uh project manager: smart ? user interface: yeah if you 're if you 're z zapping uh with your uh yeah remote control , you can press the the menu button , and then you are suddenly into the the yeah the display . marketing: into your screen . okay . so you industrial designer: you wan na separate uh marketing: l should leave the menu button out of here . user interface: yeah . marketing: and and just put it under the screen , the screen project manager: put it on top . user interface: yeah j just just group group the yeah we make these the advanced functions and these the basic functions . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so we make a yeah a line between them . marketing: yeah . but we should place the screen on top , right ? project manager: well user interface: f oh yeah . okay yeah we swap uh okay . project manager: but that 's uh j jurgen 's department . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . so we make it a marketing: yeah . you just you just find out and . project manager: you just make the layout . you user interface: okay . project manager: do we do the extra two buttons or not ? user interface: uh industrial designer: i think you should . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: it 's easier . if you put too many functions in one button it gets confusing . project manager: yeah okay . that 's true . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . so we have a a menu button and a s project manager: and to , okay and back , also . user interface: okay . okay and back button . marketing: yeah . yeah , or confirm and back . whatever . project manager: and of course the four arrows . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: no . project manager: but those are still y doubly used . both the lcd marketing: should we save this picture , or or you know what it looks like ? user interface: yeah i 'm i 'm not s clear about uh the the extra two buttons . we have a menu button and project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . that that just to to activate the screen . so user interface: that 's the the one with the yeah okay . project manager: menu button access the menu in the lcd screen . marketing: and then with these buttons , woa , y you navigate . project manager: you can navigate . user interface: okay . project manager: but you can also navigate the channels . and the volume . user interface: okay so that that 's not uh yeah that those are project manager: those are both both user interface: multifunctional . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: hey is it interesting for users if we put led lights under the buttons ? so that if you uh press on the menu function that only the buttons that are used for the menu are ligh li light up . marketing: yeah . l l litten up yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: oh five minutes . marketing: that 's very good idea . industrial designer: n marketing: alright . project manager: light uh marketing: yeah that 's a good idea because then it becomes clear which buttons are active now , which you can use . industrial designer: yeah and then it 's also easier to integrate several functions in one button . project manager: yeah sure . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: um marketing: so project manager: anything else ? marketing: those buttons are are lit up . industrial designer: i think not . marketing: but just one thing . should we use those two ? them ? or only this to to scroll ? project manager: i 've marketing: and then use the two functional buttons to confirm , to go into something ? oh no we have to use this to adjust some some bars ? project manager: volume . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah keep it optional 'cause maybe you can you know go left to right and up and down in a in one menu . marketing: yeah . and maybe we should use this also as an okay button , still . and then just only a back button . project manager: well we have those buttons . we use all four . user interface: no industrial designer: the pr the problem with the okay button in the middle is , sorry project manager: yeah okay go ahead . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: sorry , uh is uh if you 're pressing up and down , you can easily press the okay once you , when you 're not already at your choice . user interface: yeah . so maybe make one uh one okay button and and one navigation button . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah that was already decided . marketing: and one back . user interface: yeah the with with the the channel and the volume uh yeah m a multifunctional navigation button . project manager: okay that 's what we decided earlier on . user interface: yeah okay . yeah . project manager: right okay . so marketing: yeah . industrial designer: you wan na close down huh ? project manager: yeah i wan na close down . user interface: project manager: i have to , sorry . marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's not because i do n't like you but marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that 's okay . project manager: yh we have lunch break , industrial designer: already . project manager: and then we can work for thirty minutes , and i have to write very fast to make the minich min minutes . and then uh we 'll see marketing: yeah . industrial designer: alright . how m how long is the lunchbreak ? project manager: i do n't know . nobody told me . marketing: we have to ask . user interface: but do we have to write uh to write down uh the our stuff now ? or first lunchbreak ? industrial designer: okay . project manager: no i th believe there 's first lunch break . user interface: because i i 've everything in my head now so project manager: yeah . or you can just industrial designer: mm . user interface: okay . project manager: yeah ? user interface: yeah . project manager: 'kay . marketing: yes . project manager: marketing: project manager: i think you can put uh the laptop back in the room and user interface: 'kay . industrial designer: this is user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yes sir . marketing: time pressure . project manager: 'kay . yeah it 's a lot of pressure . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . sorry for my uh not finished presentation uh . project manager: that 's okay . oh yeah . user interface: oh no no . marketing: yeah we 'll kick your ass later . no . uh . project manager: industrial designer: bring it on . project manager: i do n't know if it works but it should be saved . marketing: aye y you saved it ? does it save automatically in the project folder ? or project manager: yeah . it 's uh marketing: okay . we 'll see . project manager: should be here . smart board . marketing: just put back my laptop . project manager: do n't know if you can use it but marketing: alright . user interface: okay . marketing: yeah you can open it with the picture preview or stuff like that . user interface: and uh we have to make uh some maps with uh with the all the the data we uh gathered . project manager: yeah . i try to organise it by these three . user interface: . it 's it 's just my own map so i put everything into the project manager: yeah yeah yeah . marketing: project manager: i do n't really mind . i just put the minutes here and we 'll see . user interface: but you got some extra information uh project manager: yeah that 's in the functional design uh folder . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: yeah . yeah that 's just basically what i just showed . user interface: but where do you did you get the newsflash ? project manager: yeah . yeah i got it by user interface: you 're the only one uh okay . project manager: yeah . i 'm gon na get kicked if i do n't do it so marketing: internet . user interface: okay . industrial designer: alright . marketing: alright . user interface: yeah . project manager: make me proud . industrial designer: i 'll try to . marketing: industrial designer: so first we have a lunchbreak now ? user interface: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: alright . project manager: i believe so . just ask . industrial designer: mm-hmm . i dunno where she .

the user interface put forward to add an extra function to the remote control to make it be able to hide some features and display a clear menu . the project manager was in favor of this design for that it would be easy to find those really essential functions on the menu more easily .

summarize the ideal functions and button layout of the remote control . </s> industrial designer: . user interface: hello . 'kay . project manager: you all saw the newsflash ? industrial designer: it 's project manager: or you got the same message ? marketing: yeah i i just saw it one minute ago . project manager: yeah sorry . industrial designer: i do n't know . marketing: when i uh industrial designer: i did n't see it yet i think . user interface: newsflash ? d did i miss something ? marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . yeah i received an email so i thought i i ca n't mail you so i thought i 'd just drop it in the folder , but marketing: yeah pretty much . industrial designer: hey what 's wrong with my computer ? user interface: okay . project manager: is it unlocked ? user interface: no . industrial designer: . marketing: mm . yeah that 's my presentation . project manager: woah . i uh kind of opened it . user interface: mm . industrial designer: huh ? marketing: mm ? project manager: uh industrial designer: what the marketing: oh right . user interface: i think you have to uh change your desktop uh project manager: okay . marketing: user interface: size . marketing: ooh . project manager: 'kay . everybody ready ? industrial designer: not really . marketing: well industrial designer: sorry . project manager: no no no . yes yes yes . user interface: computer is uh not functioning ? marketing: alright . project manager: okay . industrial designer: okay . where do i find this ? i 'm not so g display huh ? user interface: uh display . marketing: user interface: and then uh settings ? industrial designer: appearance ? marketing: huh . user interface: mm i 'm not sure i . marketing: you read the newsflash ? project manager: 'kay . can we get started user interface: no . industrial designer: no what was it about ? marketing: hmm . project manager: or is there some pressing issue ? industrial designer: yeah my computer is not functioning properly . project manager: oh no pressing . user interface: marketing: project manager: did you plug in the power cable when you come back ? industrial designer: yeah yeah . no but my screen is reduced in size . project manager: yeah . that 's difficult . yeah . user interface: marketing: what ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: feedback . marketing: hmm . user interface: okay . project manager: industrial designer: okay . marketing: alt delete . project manager: yeah . user interface: format . project manager: format save . marketing: . so it does n't draw the attention away . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: this is dreadful . user interface: i made uh uh my own map . project manager: oh yeah sure . industrial designer: no not this , but the task . user interface: it 's a project manager: you have playstation also ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . no that 's okay . no i just flapped it , closed it , took it here and then this happened . ah . uh where was it ? in settings ? okay . alright . thank you . project manager: huh . industrial designer: do you guys like your tasks ? user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i spent a lot of time thinking about what i was gon na do and then a couple of minutes before this i get my function you know the information that i need . user interface: yeah wa wa you actually yeah . but it it 's not clear what you have to to to type uh type in your presentation . industrial designer: so frustrating . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so marketing: yeah . i i had a whole idea and then just was typing it and then oh . i have to do that so switch . industrial designer: yeah yeah exactly . this presentation is mainly based on my own ideas 'cause i had n't time to intergrate tha the information yet so user interface: yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: really annoying . project manager: okay . so there we are again . marketing: by your humble p_m_ . project manager: yeah . marketing: project manager: okay this is the agenda . um we have three presentations , i heard . marketing: user interface: really . project manager: yeah really . so who wants to start ? marketing: yeah that 's fine . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we have to start it right away ? project manager: yeah . uh this is you ? marketing: functional ? yeah functional requirements . project manager: 'kay . marketing: alright . i 'm gon na talk about functional requirements . um well uh some research has be done uh has been done . uh observing of one hundred uh subjects in the usability lab using a remote control . uh and they also filled in a questionnaire . the findings were um , well you can see them for yourself . they disliked the look-and-feel of current remotes controls . users think they 're ugly . um they do not match the the operating behaviour of the users . so they they d they do n't match what they want to have on it . um they are often lost somewhere in the room . um it takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control . and they 're bad for r_s_i_ . i do n't know uh how a user can reach that but okay . um industrial designer: ts marketing: there is also uh was also some research on uh the most relevant and and and irrelevant uh f functions . uh most irrelevant and less used were audio settings , mono , stereo , uh pitch , bass . um screen settings for brightness and colour and stuff like that . um but they are used . i mean the industrial designer: so they do need to be in the project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah they do need to be on the on the remote control . industrial designer: alright . marketing: i mean if you ca n't control the the sound settings i mean if you dislike a very uh loud bass or something , you you need to change that . project manager: often . marketing: so um yeah we have to . industrial designer: by the way my tv does n't have an equ equaliser but marketing: we c we c yeah i mean w we ca n't project manager: next generation does . industrial designer: okay . marketing: my my tv has , industrial designer: no . alright . marketing: but we we can leave them uh away . uh most relevant , uh most used functions , uh they speak for themselves i guess . uh power button , uh channel , volume selection . uh teletext but we can skip that because i saw the newsflash , and teletext is so outdated that it it 's i should not be used uh any more in the future . project manager: n not used anymore . marketing: so forget this one . user interface: okay . marketing: uh channel settings , so for programming uh your channels in in the right order . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: by the way where did you guys get that newsflash from ? user interface: yeah . i was wondering uh industrial designer: i did n't get anything . marketing: yeah , on on the project uh project manager: yeah . not by mail . i receiv the mail but you do n't . so user interface: but you you 've got more information than uh . marketing: no so it 's a text file n in the project folder . so teletext can be skipped . project manager: that 's in the presentation , so industrial designer: alright . marketing: um there was some research on new features in a remote control . uh about an lcd screen uh and speech recognition . well we got an update for the for the audience . or the the the targeted group . so it 's above forty i guess . project manager: uh below i believe . marketing: the new product ? or below project manager: yeah below forty . marketing: because that 's pretty relevant . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: i thought i read a project manager: our current customers are in the age group forty plus . marketing: yeah ? project manager: and the new product should reach new markets , which is the customers below forty . marketing: below ? okay well user interface: but where did you get uh that information ? project manager: that 's in a newsflash . marketing: that 's that 's in the newsfla project manager: user interface: okay . marketing: okay that 's a good to know . um because you see see a clear distinction between the age groups , concerning the features . user interface: yeah . marketing: i mean uh above forty people are not so interested uh not so interested in a screen or speech recognition . uh but below that age they uh they pretty much are . so i think we can build that in . um yeah well we can skip this part as well , because i thought i read above forty so we could skip the features , but we just have to build them in because uh they find it very interesting . um well we have to keep all the classic functions but make the buttons as user-friendly as possible . um and and also there 's so not only the design of the bus uh buttons but o how you can push them , and stuff like that . so the physical uh aspect of it . um and i think and certainly for for the for the lower age groups , uh nice design , which uh does not make the remote control in your room . user interface: yeah . marketing: it 's it 's actually a part of your interior , of of your design in your room . so it 's the people can say , well what 's that , well that 's my remote control , so it 's d it has to look nice and feel nice , and and have all the functions that uh project manager: yeah . but it also needs to have corporate identity . marketing: yeah so the the logo has to be project manager: present and the colours . marketing: uh present yeah , and the colours as well . project manager: so we ca n't change much of that . industrial designer: do we have uh yeah . marketing: yeah so but i i do n't think that 's that 's a problem because the thing has to have a colour anyway , and most of the times there is a brand present on it . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . yeah . yeah . marketing: so i think that 's not gon na gon na affect it very uh very much . project manager: okay . marketing: well that are the the consequences uh on a marketing uh part . project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: alright . marketing: yes . user interface: okay . project manager: it 's open already so you can use to marketing: . project manager: find yours . user interface: mm . it 's project manager: f_ five . user interface: f_ five . okay . project manager: go jurgen . user interface: oh . what is this ? marketing: user interface: oh no . industrial designer: user interface: how do i uh project manager: you pressed alt f_ four ? user interface: no no no . i pressed the mouse button . project manager: oh great . user interface: industrial designer: it 's th that 's the self-destruct button . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . okay . project manager: uh maybe you can do it from your computer so talk us through it . user interface: okay . um if you all go stand around uh marketing: yeah . just yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: computer industrial designer: alright . marketing: sure . user interface: um project manager: that 's nice . user interface: no . project manager: f_ five . yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: alright . user interface: i uh had uh two examples . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um this one is the the yeah the advanced one with a lot of options and functions and buttons . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: this the easy one marketing: yeah . user interface: i think we have to to combine them . and uh yeah merge the best functions of all examples . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . user interface: um but yeah the the age is uh under forty ? project manager: the mm yeah . marketing: yeah and and and marketing research stated that that that kind of users are not afraid of of a lot of functions . user interface: so we okay so so we have the option for more functions . marketing: so not not too much but yeah . user interface: um yeah . industrial designer: and we do have to integrate the screen and the the speech marketing: and the speech recognition yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: alright . user interface: uh yeah this this one we can remove for kids . it 's just only for adults so uh we can uh use some advanced options . but marketing: yeah from age of sixteen so yeah . user interface: yeah but i prefer we we uh use the the basic options uh yeah . we have to to make them very easy so for just uh zapping around the channels you can just push one button . marketing: mm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: but if you want to to use your your video recorder or something else , you should use use an uh an advanced option . marketing: yeah but uh the the newsflash also stated that it should control only one device , only your television . user interface: okay one device . project manager: yeah . so n it 's very easy . user interface: okay . i did n't see . marketing: so w project manager: now yeah it 's okay . user interface: okay and i also uh yeah . w yeah . marketing: so there are not extra options in this case , but uh project manager: okay . user interface: we have to make it fashionable . like you uh said uh before . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: uh yeah the basic functions . um yeah only use a extra function if they are really needed . project manager: yeah so maybe you can hide them or something . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah well what what we can do with the screen is is all the the configuration options , you can put that in the screen . project manager: yeah you make a screen menu or something . marketing: and the and the yeah screen menu to to to uh to do that , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: and then the basic function just on the device itself . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so it looks very simple and all the advanced features are hidden in the screen , uh with a clear menu . project manager: yeah and the other oth other uh functionality is the screen . user interface: yeah . project manager: what does the screen do ? user interface: did i uh industrial designer: alright . marketing: uh . what are wh project manager: yeah . it 's low power . user interface: did i break it ? marketing: what . project manager: so what does the screen do ? they said they needed it but what does it do ? what do they want with the screen ? user interface: for for the advanced functions i think . project manager: yeah that 's what we make it up . marketing: yeah well it yeah it did n't project manager: so but what did the marketing marketing: it did n't say what they want to do with the screen . project manager: no . marketing: well i , my guess is it 's it 's pretty handy for advanced uh advanced functions . project manager: yeah okay it 's handy . with no predefined uh user interface: like searching for channels and industrial designer: ah look . marketing: yeah searching for channels , programming them . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we have your uh oh never mind . project manager: we 're back online . user interface: okay . that 's uh i 'm al i 'm almost finished so project manager: okay . user interface: um the we have to to to watch out for the i if we make it f very fashionable , it it the functional functionality will go down . so we have to make uh a compromise between functionality and fashional fashionable project manager: mm-hmm . content and form . user interface: yeah content and form . industrial designer: . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: now that that was uh was the end . project manager: that was the end . okay . user interface: yes . industrial designer: okay . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: well my presentation is a bit uh sucky . marketing: well you can improvise right ? project manager: uh which one is it ? technical functions ? industrial designer: yeah a little bit . project manager: this one ? industrial designer: uh no . no no . project manager: functional requirements ? industrial designer: yeah i think that would be it then . project manager: no . user interface: project manager: you did n't put it in ? or industrial designer: i have no idea . marketing: so we we can go for industrial designer: that w . project manager: it 's not really english . industrial designer: let me check . i know . project manager: uh kick off . oh working design i got it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so we can go for the look-and-feel of the the left example , and then a screen on top of it . project manager: here you go . industrial designer: alright how do i uh skip pages ? project manager: just uh press uh yeah . yeah . industrial designer: the keys yeah ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: alright . um yeah well i was working on this before i got my information . so i was just working off the top of my head and using my colin common knowledge about uh remote controls . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: industrial designer: and well the info on the website which came too late . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um so i did n't really know what kind of functions we had to put into it yet . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so uh uh this is basically an overview of what we discussed in our last uh meeting . those were my uh starting points . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh i was working on a s yeah on a schedule , and i was supposed to do it like this . but um yeah then uh the information came and it was kind of exact with all the steps in the remote control that i had to follow , so i was trying to organise them for myself . project manager: marketing: project manager: mm . industrial designer: and then make the project manager: design yeah . industrial designer: the design , a the actual design , marketing: design ? yeah . industrial designer: but i never came around to do that . so i 'm not really sure what i 'm supposed to say about it . marketing: okay . industrial designer: i mean everything speaks for itself i guess . mean you press a button um the it tru goes , it sends a signal to a chip , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: which uh translates it into infrared signal of certin spatial frequencies . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah frequency . yeah . industrial designer: and uh or temporal fr frequencies actually . and then uh through a uh transformer , it the signal gets boosted and then sent to the to the receiver on the tv project manager: yeah decoder . industrial designer: and the tv will translate it into a function . um yeah well this was actually all i got around to do . project manager: blank . yeah okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i mean i dunno if i 'm too slow for this stuff , but uh project manager: work harder . marketing: user interface: okay shou should we make a list of the of all the functions we want uh marketing: industrial designer: yeah . whatever . project manager: yeah . uh marketing: yeah we want to incorporate in uh into it . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'kay . um for those that did n't see yet um the basic new requirements of the management were no teletext , only for tv . uh it should be designed for a use g uh group below forty , but i do n't think it 's w wrong if we can uh target the current customer group as well . marketing: mm . project manager: and uh the corporate identity should be clear in the design of the remote control . and we have to decide on the functions , and on the , let 's see what was it , uh the target group . we have to make be clear what that is . marketing: group of users , or project manager: yeah users . marketing: because it says below forty i mean . project manager: yeah so i think it 's easy but marketing: i guess that 's that 's the tar yeah uh or male and female user interface: but uh it 's it 's also for children or just uh project manager: yeah it 's below forty so we can decide where to marketing: uh six the marketing research started on s on the age of sixteen . user interface: okay . okay . marketing: sixteen to twenty five , twenty five to thirty five , thirty five to forty five , something like that . project manager: okay . so below forty is okay . marketing: so um project manager: but we need an lower level which to s uh focus . marketing: how do you mean ? project manager: so is it from sixteen to forty ? is it from twenty to forty ? is it from thirty ? marketing: uh sixteen to forty . project manager: yeah ? 'kay . user interface: yeah . we we have to marketing: well i i guess people of sixteen are are quite used to technology . project manager: yeah . marketing: so they they adapt to it pretty soon i guess . user interface: and if we have a larger public we have uh yeah more options to to uh sell our product . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah so what we might wan na do is uh yeah cust i have customised the screen functions , if you know what i mean . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: the uh younger users are more acquainted with these kind of machines so they can use more advanced functions . but maybe elderly people do n't understand it so well , so they need a simpler remote . project manager: design . mm . industrial designer: and yeah that you can choose what the design displays , or wha whatever . user interface: yeah that 's that 's why uh i wanted to to make yeah two uh different uh yeah groups of functions . the the simple functions for for the the whole public , and the the advanced options for the younger people yeah who are more yeah experienced with uh industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . and maybe y industrial designer: experienced yeah . marketing: but uh all incorporated in the screen or or just on the remote itself ? user interface: na i w i should uh put uh the the yeah the extra advanced options on the onto the onscreen display . marketing: yeah project manager: yeah . marketing: like like you have a visual of the of the brightness with with a kind of sliding bar and a bus and and stuff like that for sound and and vis and and visuals ? project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . so is you should have a menu for all the the functions you do n't use regular and which are marketing: uh you can make a if you make a drawing . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . aye yeah . marketing: uh uh . project manager: shall i uh marketing: uh black 's okay . and draw it very big . project manager: yeah . it 's okay . marketing: oh . yeah . project manager: no , it does n't have line control , so marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah we get the marketing: yeah well , this is basically uh it 's industrial designer: the remote ? project manager: the remote , yeah ? marketing: alright the remote ? um well usually the power button is on top i guess . project manager: basic . is on top . which should be easy , easily reached with the thumb . marketing: yeah so it should fit right in into your hand . user interface: yeah . l left top or right uh top ? project manager: t i s should said right . marketing: right . right . user interface: yeah , right . industrial designer: right top . marketing: i most people are right-handed so user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah definitely . marketing: maybe left-handed special addition , but okay . user interface: marketing: if you put it like like here . or something . i dunno . um then you could put a screen , like on a mobile phone , also on top i guess . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah but if you are using the the normal functions , the the basic functions , you normally press them on the u yeah . project manager: do the also with the thumb . so it should be a little bit longer so that you can put your uh thumb , also reach the middle . or you should screen at the bottom and then you can see it very clearly . marketing: okay so y yeah you have you have it in your hand , and the screen is below , and the buttons are in the middle . project manager: you you need to be able to hold it so user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: okay for example if you put the screen here , it 's more about the functions now than the than the layout . project manager: yeah okay that 's true . layout . that 's for the marketing: does n't work too well . it 's uh it 's bent . project manager: user interface: project manager: i ca n't help it . marketing: . user interface: you broke it . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: . project manager: man . marketing: right . project manager: yeah okay . marketing: okay you get it . uh for example if y if you put all the project manager: marketing: right . project manager: you want the normal piece of paper ? and you have a pen ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and might be easier huh ? marketing: maybe this . kind of works . project manager: yeah ? marketing: like if you have like uh ten buttons for for all the for all the channels , project manager: mm-hmm . uh . marketing: um and here one for for project manager: and the for flipping up and down . user interface: yeah yeah . and volume control . marketing: yeah that that usually uh like here , here , here , here . industrial designer: yeah i project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so you have up and down for the for the channels , and left and right for the volume uh project manager: and left to right . and those can also be used for the menu . industrial designer: yeah exactly . i thought but this is really your department , that we need just the functional display and four cursors . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah okay but this is function so if you can use them for multiple things marketing: and you you have industrial designer: and marketing: most of the time you have one button in the middle . it says menu , industrial designer: yeah okay . project manager: for the menu . yeah . marketing: and then if you press it you the screen gets activated and then you can use these buttons to scroll up and down and left and right to go into functon project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and then just project manager: yeah . marketing: mo most of the time this menu button is also like okay , to to confirm a a kind of action . project manager: yeah . marketing: so you scroll into it , okay . you select a function like v like uh bass . you just adjust it with these two buttons . project manager: yeah . marketing: then okay to confirm , and then uh on on each on each screen there 's there should be an option to go back to a to a upper level . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and then finally say okay , exit . or or one button to exit it . user interface: yeah . marketing: uh in one time i dunno , that 's not really my department . user interface: and do we need a a logo on our uh remote control , or marketing: that 's more your uh your department to to uh to project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . but it should be if the screen is here then the logo should be like on on top , user interface: on the left uh top yeah . marketing: yeah . i mean it 's uh project manager: yeah but that depends on where you put the screen . user interface: okay . project manager: but it 's essential that there is a screen . marketing: yeah . yeah i mean the position of the screen is also more essential than i mean we we look where we have space left and then put the logo over there . project manager: yeah . and for the speech uh recognition part , if we want to incorporate that , we need a microphone . marketing: but um yeah so it should be i mean if you have it in your hand here , should be on top somewhere , maybe . project manager: yeah . this would be uh industrial designer: why did we wan na put the display in the bottom ? marketing: i mean i project manager: no that 's not s sure so industrial designer: okay . marketing: that 's not sure project manager: uh we need a display . marketing: but it 's user interface: yeah may maybe because you 're industrial designer: because yeah if you use the functions your hand will block the display . user interface: yeah okay but only for the basic functi if you 're going to use the advanced option , you 're going to press the the menu button and then yeah . marketing: yeah i mean a screen on top looks more lo logical to me . industrial designer: normal for logical t project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: also because people use m mobile phones and they also have the screen on top . project manager: yeah they 're used to it . user interface: okay the yeah . that 's possible . marketing: so you you just have to reach a little bit for the power button . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i mean if you grab it . industrial designer: on once it 's on it 's on . you do n't need the power button . marketing: but most most of the times if a if if a tv 's on standby people just press a channel to put it on . user interface: yeah , okay . okay we put it on top . marketing: so we put this on top , and then make the corporate logo user interface: yeah . marketing: like over here . r_r_ . and j and the microphone , i mean it can be very small . if you look at your mobile phones are some stripes , little little holes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: maybe on the top or even on the side . project manager: marketing: yeah maybe on the side . i mean if the if the microphone is good . project manager: yeah but then it 's possible that you cover it with your hand so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: true . marketing: yeah okay . so on the on the top is better . project manager: i think that top is the best option . industrial designer: but if you uh if you hold the ma the remote like this , if you put it on the top on the side project manager: yeah okay . industrial designer: i dunno . should be able to work . marketing: yeah . . project manager: depends on the sensitivity of the microphone , but i think that 's okay . industrial designer: never mind . can we leave this up to you ? user interface: marketing: yeah it does n't matter that much . so but um the screen is on top ? which functions did we have left ? i mean this is basically numbers , volume , uh channel up and down . project manager: volume . up . channel up and down , and the control of the advanced options . marketing: screen is over there . project manager: so maybe it , we should decide what advanced options we want to put in the lcd screen . user interface: yeah . if we marketing: yeah . yeah . that 's uh that 's a good one . industrial designer: yeah so we we needed to integrate the sound and uh and image options right ? project manager: yeah so sounds ? industrial designer: like uh bass uh marketing: yeah . sound ? industrial designer: so we need kind of an equaliser . if you marketing: yeah . equaliser . so if you have sound but not too advanced . i mean most tvs use only treble and bass . project manager: yeah user interface: yeah it it 's just a remote control so project manager: and they 're industrial designer: yeah treble , middl middle , bass or something . project manager: they 're not used often so user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . it 's uh pretty hard to write . project manager: industrial designer: ah as project manager: yeah just industrial designer: . marketing: mm . okay but you have sound ? project manager: yeah sounds . marketing: yeah just project manager: yeah . marketing: oh y you have digital uh industrial designer: . marketing: better write it down over there yeah . project manager: of course . i 'm just a secretary . marketing: so you have sound . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: coffee ? marketing: uh yeah sound and then within sound i guess treble and bass ? industrial designer: yes please . project manager: treble bass . industrial designer: the mono stereo option ? marketing: yeah . also . project manager: uh industrial designer: and there there was something else also . project manager: pitch i believe , yeah . industrial designer: and then pitch . marketing: pitch . yeah . but pitch , is n't that yeah that 's the the height of the tone . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: the fr yeah the frequency of the tones , yeah . marketing: yeah okay , project manager: yeah and mono stereo . marketing: wh why would you use that ? industrial designer: yeah is n't that that depends on the on the signal of the of what program you 're watching . marketing: if people like talk like uh project manager: mm . marketing: yeah . project manager: and also the tuning part ? marketing: programming part . project manager: yeah programming . so channel programming ? marketing: uh so we have sound , yeah ? channel programming . industrial designer: and yeah in the functionality of the user interface: television uh itself uh industrial designer: no no of the remote uh do do we want uh the buttons to make sound when you press them ? as a confirmation or whatever you know ? user interface: mm . marketing: mm . project manager: mm . industrial designer: i dunno . marketing: i think it g it gets annoying . project manager: yeah . marketing: i mean most mobile phones used that in the beginning but user interface: we we could make an option for it , but uh you can disable s industrial designer: under the a yeah advanced option menu you can put those things . user interface: yeah . but uh the the television itself has also the the options brightness and uh screen colour etcetera . so marketing: yeah . project manager: contrast yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah but people do n't want to sit on their knees on their knees in front of their television with only three buttons then it 's very hard to project manager: mm . no . uh , so contrast , marketing: y yeah contrast and brightness ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: bright , marketing: yeah those are the most used i guess . if you look at your monitor . project manager: uh and the others were in your presentation right ? so i can just copy those ? marketing: well yeah well i guess that these were the only ones , i guess . project manager: okay . it 's easy . industrial designer: but so we have we have tv options , which is all this . marketing: yeah . i will look it up . project manager: yeah the button options and the lcd options . industrial designer: the sound , sound and image . and you have in that uh the indeed the remote control options . project manager: indeed . marketing: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so we need two menus kind of thing . project manager: yeah you have basically a button menu , which you can use directly , uh according to the old principle . industrial designer: uh-huh . project manager: and the lcd options are activated by some some software options , thats communicates with the infrared uh decoder yeah . marketing: yeah with the chip and then i mean project manager: so you you have an additional processor and and software part . marketing: uh yeah . well yeah we have power button , whether that 's present . project manager: compared to o industrial designer: alright . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: channel volume selection present . uh numbers present . yeah a audio settings , mono , stereo , pitch , bass , treble . screen settings , brightness and colour . project manager: l_ s yeah . colour . yeah i i call it contrast . marketing: yeah con contrast is project manager: yeah i make it c colour . marketing: yeah okay , colour and brightness . project manager: yeah . marketing: um and what you say , channel settings or channel programming ? so you you have an option to to start scanning all the frequencies , and when it encounters one , well it shows on your tv . and then you can um project manager: yeah and automatically um mm-hmm . marketing: uh and then you can select uh a number in your remote on which you want to save it . project manager: yeah so i 've g channel program is autoseek ? marketing: yeah , autoseek . project manager: uh name a channel , or marketing: well most tvs automatically display the name , which they get through the cable . project manager: oh they get automatic names , okay . marketing: yeah . so you only have to choose the position on your project manager: . marketing: it only has to match the the channel frequency on your tv , with with the with the position on your tv and and so your remote . project manager: yeah . yeah but can you also say i want f uh veronica on the channel number uh five or industrial designer: help . marketing: if you already programmed it . project manager: yeah . marketing: if you want to move it . yeah that should be possible too . project manager: yeah . how do you call that ? marketing: yeah how do you call that ? mm ? wait you you should be able to to browse through a list or something , which w displays all the all the values , all the channels which are possible . project manager: channels ? yeah . marketing: i mean like one to f thirty of or ninety or whatever . project manager: ninety nine or something . yeah . marketing: just browse through it and then um in some kind of way see if it if it if it is programmed . project manager: s swap channels ? can i call it that ? marketing: yeah . swap channels . project manager: swap 's good option . okay . uh other functions ? marketing: so you most of the time if you if you swap it s uh let 's say for example you have uh r_t_l_ five on on channel five . and veronica on channel eight and you want to move veronica to channel five , most of the times you override the previous uh the previous one . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . well that 's 's up to uh mister user interface designer . user interface: marketing: yeah . it 's it 's pretty uh user interface: okay . marketing: yeah i mean you have to look on on the menu industrial designer: working design . doch . project manager: also . marketing: on the tv . project manager: that 's you 're industrial designer: he only has to figure out how it has to look . project manager: yeah but also , which buttons you have to press to get a certain result ? industrial designer: and how user interface: yeah . industrial designer: to use project manager: and the working design was to specify how ph the physical interation between the components was , as i believe . industrial designer: yeah okay . but you did your homework . but um yeah . okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: or or is it too hard to to ju to just do it all on your remote ? to programme the channels ? project manager: no i do n't think so . industrial designer: no no . it should be able to do any remote . user interface: no that 's marketing: uh . project manager: but i think the communication with the television is difficult . but that 's not our part . marketing: yeah . project manager: we do n't have to design a protocol so marketing: no . industrial designer: no . project manager: marketing: that 's true . that 's true . industrial designer: thank god . user interface: okay marketing: yeah . so we have a figure a figure out a way to to do that easily . i mean th the autoseek is is not a problem . project manager: no that 's the marketing: i mean you uh you uh current channel and then then it just says , uh on which number do you want to save this , and you just press a number on your remote , and then say confirm , okay , and then it 's it 's saved . it 's easier , it 's it 's it 's harder to , if you have already programmed it , to to swap . project manager: yeah . so but marketing: so we have to think of something for that . project manager: um the user interface designer can design a menu for all these function i put them on the marketing: yeah k kind of structure into layers . user interface: on the uh yeah can you i make a a map with with all the yeah 'cause it 's now there are lots and lots of documents project manager: . yeah . yeah i can . user interface: and project manager: i 'll just try to reorganise uh things . um marketing: so project manager: so you design the basic function menu for the lcd screen ? uh um i think marketing: and and the layout of of the thing itself . project manager: th i think the yeah the layout of the screen user interface: the the layout of the remote control ? project manager: and i think you can concentrate more on the button placement and the placement of the uh screen itself on the marketing: . user interface: is n't that more the the u uh the user interface part ? project manager: . no i d i think that 's more in . industrial designer: uh all the functional uh aspects of the remote i think are in my department . marketing: maybe more on project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i have to know what it has to do , so if you wan na you know the changing the channels kind of s thing is , i have to integrate that in the design . project manager: okay . so he 's layout and you 're function . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: form function okay . industrial designer: i think that 's a that 's a good separation . marketing: okay . user interface: but do i have to to uh to yeah to make the the menu layout also ? or project manager: yeah . user interface: are you going to do that ? industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah . yeah i guess so . user interface: yeah ? i i 'm going to make project manager: i think i that 's your department yes , user interface: yeah o okay . project manager: because w he already knows what industrial designer: yeah we have to kind of work together . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: if if i make the the the yeah the menu like , i have to state which function has to be in the menu , project manager: but we 're not allowed . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: and then you have to decide , it 's , in a in a way that b is user-friendly . user interface: yeah . okay . y you you are going to make a list of what functions are uh are going to to be on the the screen , the menu screen . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and i 'm going to make a a nice menu uh with with pages and yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think yeah . marketing: with with some l with some layers in it . project manager: yeah and also make clear which buttons to press to get certain result , marketing: so some menus . project manager: because that 's always the difficulty . marketing: yeah . project manager: every device has its own user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . well i guess this this button , the the the okay , project manager: menu okay . marketing: menu okay . or you can incorporate two uh difference uh different buttons . uh like uh for your mobile phone . um so this is only for to get in the menu , or to exit it . project manager: mm . marketing: and then one to confirm , and one to go one step back . project manager: back . yeah . marketing: so it 's like the the save button on your your mobile phone , if you have a nokia or like that . or the or the no button . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: to go one step back you it 's only two extra buttons , user interface: yeah . w we marketing: but if it if it 's very clear that they are for the screen user interface: uh i think we have to to group , to make two groups . um the one group for the for the display , and one group for the basic functions , and industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah but they 're incorporated ? up and down is user interface: yeah okay but we we have a m marketing: yeah because this this is used for both . user interface: yeah but maybe that 's that 's not uh project manager: smart ? user interface: yeah if you 're if you 're z zapping uh with your uh yeah remote control , you can press the the menu button , and then you are suddenly into the the yeah the display . marketing: into your screen . okay . so you industrial designer: you wan na separate uh marketing: l should leave the menu button out of here . user interface: yeah . marketing: and and just put it under the screen , the screen project manager: put it on top . user interface: yeah j just just group group the yeah we make these the advanced functions and these the basic functions . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so we make a yeah a line between them . marketing: yeah . but we should place the screen on top , right ? project manager: well user interface: f oh yeah . okay yeah we swap uh okay . project manager: but that 's uh j jurgen 's department . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . so we make it a marketing: yeah . you just you just find out and . project manager: you just make the layout . you user interface: okay . project manager: do we do the extra two buttons or not ? user interface: uh industrial designer: i think you should . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: it 's easier . if you put too many functions in one button it gets confusing . project manager: yeah okay . that 's true . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . so we have a a menu button and a s project manager: and to , okay and back , also . user interface: okay . okay and back button . marketing: yeah . yeah , or confirm and back . whatever . project manager: and of course the four arrows . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: no . project manager: but those are still y doubly used . both the lcd marketing: should we save this picture , or or you know what it looks like ? user interface: yeah i 'm i 'm not s clear about uh the the extra two buttons . we have a menu button and project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . that that just to to activate the screen . so user interface: that 's the the one with the yeah okay . project manager: menu button access the menu in the lcd screen . marketing: and then with these buttons , woa , y you navigate . project manager: you can navigate . user interface: okay . project manager: but you can also navigate the channels . and the volume . user interface: okay so that that 's not uh yeah that those are project manager: those are both both user interface: multifunctional . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: hey is it interesting for users if we put led lights under the buttons ? so that if you uh press on the menu function that only the buttons that are used for the menu are ligh li light up . marketing: yeah . l l litten up yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: oh five minutes . marketing: that 's very good idea . industrial designer: n marketing: alright . project manager: light uh marketing: yeah that 's a good idea because then it becomes clear which buttons are active now , which you can use . industrial designer: yeah and then it 's also easier to integrate several functions in one button . project manager: yeah sure . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: um marketing: so project manager: anything else ? marketing: those buttons are are lit up . industrial designer: i think not . marketing: but just one thing . should we use those two ? them ? or only this to to scroll ? project manager: i 've marketing: and then use the two functional buttons to confirm , to go into something ? oh no we have to use this to adjust some some bars ? project manager: volume . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah keep it optional 'cause maybe you can you know go left to right and up and down in a in one menu . marketing: yeah . and maybe we should use this also as an okay button , still . and then just only a back button . project manager: well we have those buttons . we use all four . user interface: no industrial designer: the pr the problem with the okay button in the middle is , sorry project manager: yeah okay go ahead . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: sorry , uh is uh if you 're pressing up and down , you can easily press the okay once you , when you 're not already at your choice . user interface: yeah . so maybe make one uh one okay button and and one navigation button . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah that was already decided . marketing: and one back . user interface: yeah the with with the the channel and the volume uh yeah m a multifunctional navigation button . project manager: okay that 's what we decided earlier on . user interface: yeah okay . yeah . project manager: right okay . so marketing: yeah . industrial designer: you wan na close down huh ? project manager: yeah i wan na close down . user interface: project manager: i have to , sorry . marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's not because i do n't like you but marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that 's okay . project manager: yh we have lunch break , industrial designer: already . project manager: and then we can work for thirty minutes , and i have to write very fast to make the minich min minutes . and then uh we 'll see marketing: yeah . industrial designer: alright . how m how long is the lunchbreak ? project manager: i do n't know . nobody told me . marketing: we have to ask . user interface: but do we have to write uh to write down uh the our stuff now ? or first lunchbreak ? industrial designer: okay . project manager: no i th believe there 's first lunch break . user interface: because i i 've everything in my head now so project manager: yeah . or you can just industrial designer: mm . user interface: okay . project manager: yeah ? user interface: yeah . project manager: 'kay . marketing: yes . project manager: marketing: project manager: i think you can put uh the laptop back in the room and user interface: 'kay . industrial designer: this is user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yes sir . marketing: time pressure . project manager: 'kay . yeah it 's a lot of pressure . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . sorry for my uh not finished presentation uh . project manager: that 's okay . oh yeah . user interface: oh no no . marketing: yeah we 'll kick your ass later . no . uh . project manager: industrial designer: bring it on . project manager: i do n't know if it works but it should be saved . marketing: aye y you saved it ? does it save automatically in the project folder ? or project manager: yeah . it 's uh marketing: okay . we 'll see . project manager: should be here . smart board . marketing: just put back my laptop . project manager: do n't know if you can use it but marketing: alright . user interface: okay . marketing: yeah you can open it with the picture preview or stuff like that . user interface: and uh we have to make uh some maps with uh with the all the the data we uh gathered . project manager: yeah . i try to organise it by these three . user interface: . it 's it 's just my own map so i put everything into the project manager: yeah yeah yeah . marketing: project manager: i do n't really mind . i just put the minutes here and we 'll see . user interface: but you got some extra information uh project manager: yeah that 's in the functional design uh folder . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: yeah . yeah that 's just basically what i just showed . user interface: but where do you did you get the newsflash ? project manager: yeah . yeah i got it by user interface: you 're the only one uh okay . project manager: yeah . i 'm gon na get kicked if i do n't do it so marketing: internet . user interface: okay . industrial designer: alright . marketing: alright . user interface: yeah . project manager: make me proud . industrial designer: i 'll try to . marketing: industrial designer: so first we have a lunchbreak now ? user interface: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: alright . project manager: i believe so . just ask . industrial designer: mm-hmm . i dunno where she .

to maximize the satisfaction of the users , the first thing should be confirmed is that the power button should be put on the right top where it can be reached with a thumb easily . then like all the remote controls , they should have up and down for the channels and left and right for the volume . besides , the button for the screen brightness was also important . to make their remote control unique , the user interface proposed to add their logo on it .

what did the marketing recommend to do when discussing the ideal functions and the button layout of the remote control ? </s> industrial designer: . user interface: hello . 'kay . project manager: you all saw the newsflash ? industrial designer: it 's project manager: or you got the same message ? marketing: yeah i i just saw it one minute ago . project manager: yeah sorry . industrial designer: i do n't know . marketing: when i uh industrial designer: i did n't see it yet i think . user interface: newsflash ? d did i miss something ? marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . yeah i received an email so i thought i i ca n't mail you so i thought i 'd just drop it in the folder , but marketing: yeah pretty much . industrial designer: hey what 's wrong with my computer ? user interface: okay . project manager: is it unlocked ? user interface: no . industrial designer: . marketing: mm . yeah that 's my presentation . project manager: woah . i uh kind of opened it . user interface: mm . industrial designer: huh ? marketing: mm ? project manager: uh industrial designer: what the marketing: oh right . user interface: i think you have to uh change your desktop uh project manager: okay . marketing: user interface: size . marketing: ooh . project manager: 'kay . everybody ready ? industrial designer: not really . marketing: well industrial designer: sorry . project manager: no no no . yes yes yes . user interface: computer is uh not functioning ? marketing: alright . project manager: okay . industrial designer: okay . where do i find this ? i 'm not so g display huh ? user interface: uh display . marketing: user interface: and then uh settings ? industrial designer: appearance ? marketing: huh . user interface: mm i 'm not sure i . marketing: you read the newsflash ? project manager: 'kay . can we get started user interface: no . industrial designer: no what was it about ? marketing: hmm . project manager: or is there some pressing issue ? industrial designer: yeah my computer is not functioning properly . project manager: oh no pressing . user interface: marketing: project manager: did you plug in the power cable when you come back ? industrial designer: yeah yeah . no but my screen is reduced in size . project manager: yeah . that 's difficult . yeah . user interface: marketing: what ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: feedback . marketing: hmm . user interface: okay . project manager: industrial designer: okay . marketing: alt delete . project manager: yeah . user interface: format . project manager: format save . marketing: . so it does n't draw the attention away . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: this is dreadful . user interface: i made uh uh my own map . project manager: oh yeah sure . industrial designer: no not this , but the task . user interface: it 's a project manager: you have playstation also ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . no that 's okay . no i just flapped it , closed it , took it here and then this happened . ah . uh where was it ? in settings ? okay . alright . thank you . project manager: huh . industrial designer: do you guys like your tasks ? user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i spent a lot of time thinking about what i was gon na do and then a couple of minutes before this i get my function you know the information that i need . user interface: yeah wa wa you actually yeah . but it it 's not clear what you have to to to type uh type in your presentation . industrial designer: so frustrating . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so marketing: yeah . i i had a whole idea and then just was typing it and then oh . i have to do that so switch . industrial designer: yeah yeah exactly . this presentation is mainly based on my own ideas 'cause i had n't time to intergrate tha the information yet so user interface: yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: really annoying . project manager: okay . so there we are again . marketing: by your humble p_m_ . project manager: yeah . marketing: project manager: okay this is the agenda . um we have three presentations , i heard . marketing: user interface: really . project manager: yeah really . so who wants to start ? marketing: yeah that 's fine . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we have to start it right away ? project manager: yeah . uh this is you ? marketing: functional ? yeah functional requirements . project manager: 'kay . marketing: alright . i 'm gon na talk about functional requirements . um well uh some research has be done uh has been done . uh observing of one hundred uh subjects in the usability lab using a remote control . uh and they also filled in a questionnaire . the findings were um , well you can see them for yourself . they disliked the look-and-feel of current remotes controls . users think they 're ugly . um they do not match the the operating behaviour of the users . so they they d they do n't match what they want to have on it . um they are often lost somewhere in the room . um it takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control . and they 're bad for r_s_i_ . i do n't know uh how a user can reach that but okay . um industrial designer: ts marketing: there is also uh was also some research on uh the most relevant and and and irrelevant uh f functions . uh most irrelevant and less used were audio settings , mono , stereo , uh pitch , bass . um screen settings for brightness and colour and stuff like that . um but they are used . i mean the industrial designer: so they do need to be in the project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah they do need to be on the on the remote control . industrial designer: alright . marketing: i mean if you ca n't control the the sound settings i mean if you dislike a very uh loud bass or something , you you need to change that . project manager: often . marketing: so um yeah we have to . industrial designer: by the way my tv does n't have an equ equaliser but marketing: we c we c yeah i mean w we ca n't project manager: next generation does . industrial designer: okay . marketing: my my tv has , industrial designer: no . alright . marketing: but we we can leave them uh away . uh most relevant , uh most used functions , uh they speak for themselves i guess . uh power button , uh channel , volume selection . uh teletext but we can skip that because i saw the newsflash , and teletext is so outdated that it it 's i should not be used uh any more in the future . project manager: n not used anymore . marketing: so forget this one . user interface: okay . marketing: uh channel settings , so for programming uh your channels in in the right order . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: by the way where did you guys get that newsflash from ? user interface: yeah . i was wondering uh industrial designer: i did n't get anything . marketing: yeah , on on the project uh project manager: yeah . not by mail . i receiv the mail but you do n't . so user interface: but you you 've got more information than uh . marketing: no so it 's a text file n in the project folder . so teletext can be skipped . project manager: that 's in the presentation , so industrial designer: alright . marketing: um there was some research on new features in a remote control . uh about an lcd screen uh and speech recognition . well we got an update for the for the audience . or the the the targeted group . so it 's above forty i guess . project manager: uh below i believe . marketing: the new product ? or below project manager: yeah below forty . marketing: because that 's pretty relevant . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: i thought i read a project manager: our current customers are in the age group forty plus . marketing: yeah ? project manager: and the new product should reach new markets , which is the customers below forty . marketing: below ? okay well user interface: but where did you get uh that information ? project manager: that 's in a newsflash . marketing: that 's that 's in the newsfla project manager: user interface: okay . marketing: okay that 's a good to know . um because you see see a clear distinction between the age groups , concerning the features . user interface: yeah . marketing: i mean uh above forty people are not so interested uh not so interested in a screen or speech recognition . uh but below that age they uh they pretty much are . so i think we can build that in . um yeah well we can skip this part as well , because i thought i read above forty so we could skip the features , but we just have to build them in because uh they find it very interesting . um well we have to keep all the classic functions but make the buttons as user-friendly as possible . um and and also there 's so not only the design of the bus uh buttons but o how you can push them , and stuff like that . so the physical uh aspect of it . um and i think and certainly for for the for the lower age groups , uh nice design , which uh does not make the remote control in your room . user interface: yeah . marketing: it 's it 's actually a part of your interior , of of your design in your room . so it 's the people can say , well what 's that , well that 's my remote control , so it 's d it has to look nice and feel nice , and and have all the functions that uh project manager: yeah . but it also needs to have corporate identity . marketing: yeah so the the logo has to be project manager: present and the colours . marketing: uh present yeah , and the colours as well . project manager: so we ca n't change much of that . industrial designer: do we have uh yeah . marketing: yeah so but i i do n't think that 's that 's a problem because the thing has to have a colour anyway , and most of the times there is a brand present on it . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . yeah . yeah . marketing: so i think that 's not gon na gon na affect it very uh very much . project manager: okay . marketing: well that are the the consequences uh on a marketing uh part . project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: alright . marketing: yes . user interface: okay . project manager: it 's open already so you can use to marketing: . project manager: find yours . user interface: mm . it 's project manager: f_ five . user interface: f_ five . okay . project manager: go jurgen . user interface: oh . what is this ? marketing: user interface: oh no . industrial designer: user interface: how do i uh project manager: you pressed alt f_ four ? user interface: no no no . i pressed the mouse button . project manager: oh great . user interface: industrial designer: it 's th that 's the self-destruct button . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . okay . project manager: uh maybe you can do it from your computer so talk us through it . user interface: okay . um if you all go stand around uh marketing: yeah . just yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: computer industrial designer: alright . marketing: sure . user interface: um project manager: that 's nice . user interface: no . project manager: f_ five . yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: alright . user interface: i uh had uh two examples . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um this one is the the yeah the advanced one with a lot of options and functions and buttons . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: this the easy one marketing: yeah . user interface: i think we have to to combine them . and uh yeah merge the best functions of all examples . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . user interface: um but yeah the the age is uh under forty ? project manager: the mm yeah . marketing: yeah and and and marketing research stated that that that kind of users are not afraid of of a lot of functions . user interface: so we okay so so we have the option for more functions . marketing: so not not too much but yeah . user interface: um yeah . industrial designer: and we do have to integrate the screen and the the speech marketing: and the speech recognition yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: alright . user interface: uh yeah this this one we can remove for kids . it 's just only for adults so uh we can uh use some advanced options . but marketing: yeah from age of sixteen so yeah . user interface: yeah but i prefer we we uh use the the basic options uh yeah . we have to to make them very easy so for just uh zapping around the channels you can just push one button . marketing: mm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: but if you want to to use your your video recorder or something else , you should use use an uh an advanced option . marketing: yeah but uh the the newsflash also stated that it should control only one device , only your television . user interface: okay one device . project manager: yeah . so n it 's very easy . user interface: okay . i did n't see . marketing: so w project manager: now yeah it 's okay . user interface: okay and i also uh yeah . w yeah . marketing: so there are not extra options in this case , but uh project manager: okay . user interface: we have to make it fashionable . like you uh said uh before . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: uh yeah the basic functions . um yeah only use a extra function if they are really needed . project manager: yeah so maybe you can hide them or something . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah well what what we can do with the screen is is all the the configuration options , you can put that in the screen . project manager: yeah you make a screen menu or something . marketing: and the and the yeah screen menu to to to uh to do that , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: and then the basic function just on the device itself . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so it looks very simple and all the advanced features are hidden in the screen , uh with a clear menu . project manager: yeah and the other oth other uh functionality is the screen . user interface: yeah . project manager: what does the screen do ? user interface: did i uh industrial designer: alright . marketing: uh . what are wh project manager: yeah . it 's low power . user interface: did i break it ? marketing: what . project manager: so what does the screen do ? they said they needed it but what does it do ? what do they want with the screen ? user interface: for for the advanced functions i think . project manager: yeah that 's what we make it up . marketing: yeah well it yeah it did n't project manager: so but what did the marketing marketing: it did n't say what they want to do with the screen . project manager: no . marketing: well i , my guess is it 's it 's pretty handy for advanced uh advanced functions . project manager: yeah okay it 's handy . with no predefined uh user interface: like searching for channels and industrial designer: ah look . marketing: yeah searching for channels , programming them . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we have your uh oh never mind . project manager: we 're back online . user interface: okay . that 's uh i 'm al i 'm almost finished so project manager: okay . user interface: um the we have to to to watch out for the i if we make it f very fashionable , it it the functional functionality will go down . so we have to make uh a compromise between functionality and fashional fashionable project manager: mm-hmm . content and form . user interface: yeah content and form . industrial designer: . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: now that that was uh was the end . project manager: that was the end . okay . user interface: yes . industrial designer: okay . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: well my presentation is a bit uh sucky . marketing: well you can improvise right ? project manager: uh which one is it ? technical functions ? industrial designer: yeah a little bit . project manager: this one ? industrial designer: uh no . no no . project manager: functional requirements ? industrial designer: yeah i think that would be it then . project manager: no . user interface: project manager: you did n't put it in ? or industrial designer: i have no idea . marketing: so we we can go for industrial designer: that w . project manager: it 's not really english . industrial designer: let me check . i know . project manager: uh kick off . oh working design i got it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so we can go for the look-and-feel of the the left example , and then a screen on top of it . project manager: here you go . industrial designer: alright how do i uh skip pages ? project manager: just uh press uh yeah . yeah . industrial designer: the keys yeah ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: alright . um yeah well i was working on this before i got my information . so i was just working off the top of my head and using my colin common knowledge about uh remote controls . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: industrial designer: and well the info on the website which came too late . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um so i did n't really know what kind of functions we had to put into it yet . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so uh uh this is basically an overview of what we discussed in our last uh meeting . those were my uh starting points . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh i was working on a s yeah on a schedule , and i was supposed to do it like this . but um yeah then uh the information came and it was kind of exact with all the steps in the remote control that i had to follow , so i was trying to organise them for myself . project manager: marketing: project manager: mm . industrial designer: and then make the project manager: design yeah . industrial designer: the design , a the actual design , marketing: design ? yeah . industrial designer: but i never came around to do that . so i 'm not really sure what i 'm supposed to say about it . marketing: okay . industrial designer: i mean everything speaks for itself i guess . mean you press a button um the it tru goes , it sends a signal to a chip , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: which uh translates it into infrared signal of certin spatial frequencies . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah frequency . yeah . industrial designer: and uh or temporal fr frequencies actually . and then uh through a uh transformer , it the signal gets boosted and then sent to the to the receiver on the tv project manager: yeah decoder . industrial designer: and the tv will translate it into a function . um yeah well this was actually all i got around to do . project manager: blank . yeah okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i mean i dunno if i 'm too slow for this stuff , but uh project manager: work harder . marketing: user interface: okay shou should we make a list of the of all the functions we want uh marketing: industrial designer: yeah . whatever . project manager: yeah . uh marketing: yeah we want to incorporate in uh into it . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'kay . um for those that did n't see yet um the basic new requirements of the management were no teletext , only for tv . uh it should be designed for a use g uh group below forty , but i do n't think it 's w wrong if we can uh target the current customer group as well . marketing: mm . project manager: and uh the corporate identity should be clear in the design of the remote control . and we have to decide on the functions , and on the , let 's see what was it , uh the target group . we have to make be clear what that is . marketing: group of users , or project manager: yeah users . marketing: because it says below forty i mean . project manager: yeah so i think it 's easy but marketing: i guess that 's that 's the tar yeah uh or male and female user interface: but uh it 's it 's also for children or just uh project manager: yeah it 's below forty so we can decide where to marketing: uh six the marketing research started on s on the age of sixteen . user interface: okay . okay . marketing: sixteen to twenty five , twenty five to thirty five , thirty five to forty five , something like that . project manager: okay . so below forty is okay . marketing: so um project manager: but we need an lower level which to s uh focus . marketing: how do you mean ? project manager: so is it from sixteen to forty ? is it from twenty to forty ? is it from thirty ? marketing: uh sixteen to forty . project manager: yeah ? 'kay . user interface: yeah . we we have to marketing: well i i guess people of sixteen are are quite used to technology . project manager: yeah . marketing: so they they adapt to it pretty soon i guess . user interface: and if we have a larger public we have uh yeah more options to to uh sell our product . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah so what we might wan na do is uh yeah cust i have customised the screen functions , if you know what i mean . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: the uh younger users are more acquainted with these kind of machines so they can use more advanced functions . but maybe elderly people do n't understand it so well , so they need a simpler remote . project manager: design . mm . industrial designer: and yeah that you can choose what the design displays , or wha whatever . user interface: yeah that 's that 's why uh i wanted to to make yeah two uh different uh yeah groups of functions . the the simple functions for for the the whole public , and the the advanced options for the younger people yeah who are more yeah experienced with uh industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . and maybe y industrial designer: experienced yeah . marketing: but uh all incorporated in the screen or or just on the remote itself ? user interface: na i w i should uh put uh the the yeah the extra advanced options on the onto the onscreen display . marketing: yeah project manager: yeah . marketing: like like you have a visual of the of the brightness with with a kind of sliding bar and a bus and and stuff like that for sound and and vis and and visuals ? project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . so is you should have a menu for all the the functions you do n't use regular and which are marketing: uh you can make a if you make a drawing . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . aye yeah . marketing: uh uh . project manager: shall i uh marketing: uh black 's okay . and draw it very big . project manager: yeah . it 's okay . marketing: oh . yeah . project manager: no , it does n't have line control , so marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah we get the marketing: yeah well , this is basically uh it 's industrial designer: the remote ? project manager: the remote , yeah ? marketing: alright the remote ? um well usually the power button is on top i guess . project manager: basic . is on top . which should be easy , easily reached with the thumb . marketing: yeah so it should fit right in into your hand . user interface: yeah . l left top or right uh top ? project manager: t i s should said right . marketing: right . right . user interface: yeah , right . industrial designer: right top . marketing: i most people are right-handed so user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah definitely . marketing: maybe left-handed special addition , but okay . user interface: marketing: if you put it like like here . or something . i dunno . um then you could put a screen , like on a mobile phone , also on top i guess . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah but if you are using the the normal functions , the the basic functions , you normally press them on the u yeah . project manager: do the also with the thumb . so it should be a little bit longer so that you can put your uh thumb , also reach the middle . or you should screen at the bottom and then you can see it very clearly . marketing: okay so y yeah you have you have it in your hand , and the screen is below , and the buttons are in the middle . project manager: you you need to be able to hold it so user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: okay for example if you put the screen here , it 's more about the functions now than the than the layout . project manager: yeah okay that 's true . layout . that 's for the marketing: does n't work too well . it 's uh it 's bent . project manager: user interface: project manager: i ca n't help it . marketing: . user interface: you broke it . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: . project manager: man . marketing: right . project manager: yeah okay . marketing: okay you get it . uh for example if y if you put all the project manager: marketing: right . project manager: you want the normal piece of paper ? and you have a pen ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and might be easier huh ? marketing: maybe this . kind of works . project manager: yeah ? marketing: like if you have like uh ten buttons for for all the for all the channels , project manager: mm-hmm . uh . marketing: um and here one for for project manager: and the for flipping up and down . user interface: yeah yeah . and volume control . marketing: yeah that that usually uh like here , here , here , here . industrial designer: yeah i project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so you have up and down for the for the channels , and left and right for the volume uh project manager: and left to right . and those can also be used for the menu . industrial designer: yeah exactly . i thought but this is really your department , that we need just the functional display and four cursors . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah okay but this is function so if you can use them for multiple things marketing: and you you have industrial designer: and marketing: most of the time you have one button in the middle . it says menu , industrial designer: yeah okay . project manager: for the menu . yeah . marketing: and then if you press it you the screen gets activated and then you can use these buttons to scroll up and down and left and right to go into functon project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and then just project manager: yeah . marketing: mo most of the time this menu button is also like okay , to to confirm a a kind of action . project manager: yeah . marketing: so you scroll into it , okay . you select a function like v like uh bass . you just adjust it with these two buttons . project manager: yeah . marketing: then okay to confirm , and then uh on on each on each screen there 's there should be an option to go back to a to a upper level . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and then finally say okay , exit . or or one button to exit it . user interface: yeah . marketing: uh in one time i dunno , that 's not really my department . user interface: and do we need a a logo on our uh remote control , or marketing: that 's more your uh your department to to uh to project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . but it should be if the screen is here then the logo should be like on on top , user interface: on the left uh top yeah . marketing: yeah . i mean it 's uh project manager: yeah but that depends on where you put the screen . user interface: okay . project manager: but it 's essential that there is a screen . marketing: yeah . yeah i mean the position of the screen is also more essential than i mean we we look where we have space left and then put the logo over there . project manager: yeah . and for the speech uh recognition part , if we want to incorporate that , we need a microphone . marketing: but um yeah so it should be i mean if you have it in your hand here , should be on top somewhere , maybe . project manager: yeah . this would be uh industrial designer: why did we wan na put the display in the bottom ? marketing: i mean i project manager: no that 's not s sure so industrial designer: okay . marketing: that 's not sure project manager: uh we need a display . marketing: but it 's user interface: yeah may maybe because you 're industrial designer: because yeah if you use the functions your hand will block the display . user interface: yeah okay but only for the basic functi if you 're going to use the advanced option , you 're going to press the the menu button and then yeah . marketing: yeah i mean a screen on top looks more lo logical to me . industrial designer: normal for logical t project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: also because people use m mobile phones and they also have the screen on top . project manager: yeah they 're used to it . user interface: okay the yeah . that 's possible . marketing: so you you just have to reach a little bit for the power button . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i mean if you grab it . industrial designer: on once it 's on it 's on . you do n't need the power button . marketing: but most most of the times if a if if a tv 's on standby people just press a channel to put it on . user interface: yeah , okay . okay we put it on top . marketing: so we put this on top , and then make the corporate logo user interface: yeah . marketing: like over here . r_r_ . and j and the microphone , i mean it can be very small . if you look at your mobile phones are some stripes , little little holes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: maybe on the top or even on the side . project manager: marketing: yeah maybe on the side . i mean if the if the microphone is good . project manager: yeah but then it 's possible that you cover it with your hand so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: true . marketing: yeah okay . so on the on the top is better . project manager: i think that top is the best option . industrial designer: but if you uh if you hold the ma the remote like this , if you put it on the top on the side project manager: yeah okay . industrial designer: i dunno . should be able to work . marketing: yeah . . project manager: depends on the sensitivity of the microphone , but i think that 's okay . industrial designer: never mind . can we leave this up to you ? user interface: marketing: yeah it does n't matter that much . so but um the screen is on top ? which functions did we have left ? i mean this is basically numbers , volume , uh channel up and down . project manager: volume . up . channel up and down , and the control of the advanced options . marketing: screen is over there . project manager: so maybe it , we should decide what advanced options we want to put in the lcd screen . user interface: yeah . if we marketing: yeah . yeah . that 's uh that 's a good one . industrial designer: yeah so we we needed to integrate the sound and uh and image options right ? project manager: yeah so sounds ? industrial designer: like uh bass uh marketing: yeah . sound ? industrial designer: so we need kind of an equaliser . if you marketing: yeah . equaliser . so if you have sound but not too advanced . i mean most tvs use only treble and bass . project manager: yeah user interface: yeah it it 's just a remote control so project manager: and they 're industrial designer: yeah treble , middl middle , bass or something . project manager: they 're not used often so user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . it 's uh pretty hard to write . project manager: industrial designer: ah as project manager: yeah just industrial designer: . marketing: mm . okay but you have sound ? project manager: yeah sounds . marketing: yeah just project manager: yeah . marketing: oh y you have digital uh industrial designer: . marketing: better write it down over there yeah . project manager: of course . i 'm just a secretary . marketing: so you have sound . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: coffee ? marketing: uh yeah sound and then within sound i guess treble and bass ? industrial designer: yes please . project manager: treble bass . industrial designer: the mono stereo option ? marketing: yeah . also . project manager: uh industrial designer: and there there was something else also . project manager: pitch i believe , yeah . industrial designer: and then pitch . marketing: pitch . yeah . but pitch , is n't that yeah that 's the the height of the tone . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: the fr yeah the frequency of the tones , yeah . marketing: yeah okay , project manager: yeah and mono stereo . marketing: wh why would you use that ? industrial designer: yeah is n't that that depends on the on the signal of the of what program you 're watching . marketing: if people like talk like uh project manager: mm . marketing: yeah . project manager: and also the tuning part ? marketing: programming part . project manager: yeah programming . so channel programming ? marketing: uh so we have sound , yeah ? channel programming . industrial designer: and yeah in the functionality of the user interface: television uh itself uh industrial designer: no no of the remote uh do do we want uh the buttons to make sound when you press them ? as a confirmation or whatever you know ? user interface: mm . marketing: mm . project manager: mm . industrial designer: i dunno . marketing: i think it g it gets annoying . project manager: yeah . marketing: i mean most mobile phones used that in the beginning but user interface: we we could make an option for it , but uh you can disable s industrial designer: under the a yeah advanced option menu you can put those things . user interface: yeah . but uh the the television itself has also the the options brightness and uh screen colour etcetera . so marketing: yeah . project manager: contrast yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah but people do n't want to sit on their knees on their knees in front of their television with only three buttons then it 's very hard to project manager: mm . no . uh , so contrast , marketing: y yeah contrast and brightness ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: bright , marketing: yeah those are the most used i guess . if you look at your monitor . project manager: uh and the others were in your presentation right ? so i can just copy those ? marketing: well yeah well i guess that these were the only ones , i guess . project manager: okay . it 's easy . industrial designer: but so we have we have tv options , which is all this . marketing: yeah . i will look it up . project manager: yeah the button options and the lcd options . industrial designer: the sound , sound and image . and you have in that uh the indeed the remote control options . project manager: indeed . marketing: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so we need two menus kind of thing . project manager: yeah you have basically a button menu , which you can use directly , uh according to the old principle . industrial designer: uh-huh . project manager: and the lcd options are activated by some some software options , thats communicates with the infrared uh decoder yeah . marketing: yeah with the chip and then i mean project manager: so you you have an additional processor and and software part . marketing: uh yeah . well yeah we have power button , whether that 's present . project manager: compared to o industrial designer: alright . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: channel volume selection present . uh numbers present . yeah a audio settings , mono , stereo , pitch , bass , treble . screen settings , brightness and colour . project manager: l_ s yeah . colour . yeah i i call it contrast . marketing: yeah con contrast is project manager: yeah i make it c colour . marketing: yeah okay , colour and brightness . project manager: yeah . marketing: um and what you say , channel settings or channel programming ? so you you have an option to to start scanning all the frequencies , and when it encounters one , well it shows on your tv . and then you can um project manager: yeah and automatically um mm-hmm . marketing: uh and then you can select uh a number in your remote on which you want to save it . project manager: yeah so i 've g channel program is autoseek ? marketing: yeah , autoseek . project manager: uh name a channel , or marketing: well most tvs automatically display the name , which they get through the cable . project manager: oh they get automatic names , okay . marketing: yeah . so you only have to choose the position on your project manager: . marketing: it only has to match the the channel frequency on your tv , with with the with the position on your tv and and so your remote . project manager: yeah . yeah but can you also say i want f uh veronica on the channel number uh five or industrial designer: help . marketing: if you already programmed it . project manager: yeah . marketing: if you want to move it . yeah that should be possible too . project manager: yeah . how do you call that ? marketing: yeah how do you call that ? mm ? wait you you should be able to to browse through a list or something , which w displays all the all the values , all the channels which are possible . project manager: channels ? yeah . marketing: i mean like one to f thirty of or ninety or whatever . project manager: ninety nine or something . yeah . marketing: just browse through it and then um in some kind of way see if it if it if it is programmed . project manager: s swap channels ? can i call it that ? marketing: yeah . swap channels . project manager: swap 's good option . okay . uh other functions ? marketing: so you most of the time if you if you swap it s uh let 's say for example you have uh r_t_l_ five on on channel five . and veronica on channel eight and you want to move veronica to channel five , most of the times you override the previous uh the previous one . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . well that 's 's up to uh mister user interface designer . user interface: marketing: yeah . it 's it 's pretty uh user interface: okay . marketing: yeah i mean you have to look on on the menu industrial designer: working design . doch . project manager: also . marketing: on the tv . project manager: that 's you 're industrial designer: he only has to figure out how it has to look . project manager: yeah but also , which buttons you have to press to get a certain result ? industrial designer: and how user interface: yeah . industrial designer: to use project manager: and the working design was to specify how ph the physical interation between the components was , as i believe . industrial designer: yeah okay . but you did your homework . but um yeah . okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: or or is it too hard to to ju to just do it all on your remote ? to programme the channels ? project manager: no i do n't think so . industrial designer: no no . it should be able to do any remote . user interface: no that 's marketing: uh . project manager: but i think the communication with the television is difficult . but that 's not our part . marketing: yeah . project manager: we do n't have to design a protocol so marketing: no . industrial designer: no . project manager: marketing: that 's true . that 's true . industrial designer: thank god . user interface: okay marketing: yeah . so we have a figure a figure out a way to to do that easily . i mean th the autoseek is is not a problem . project manager: no that 's the marketing: i mean you uh you uh current channel and then then it just says , uh on which number do you want to save this , and you just press a number on your remote , and then say confirm , okay , and then it 's it 's saved . it 's easier , it 's it 's it 's harder to , if you have already programmed it , to to swap . project manager: yeah . so but marketing: so we have to think of something for that . project manager: um the user interface designer can design a menu for all these function i put them on the marketing: yeah k kind of structure into layers . user interface: on the uh yeah can you i make a a map with with all the yeah 'cause it 's now there are lots and lots of documents project manager: . yeah . yeah i can . user interface: and project manager: i 'll just try to reorganise uh things . um marketing: so project manager: so you design the basic function menu for the lcd screen ? uh um i think marketing: and and the layout of of the thing itself . project manager: th i think the yeah the layout of the screen user interface: the the layout of the remote control ? project manager: and i think you can concentrate more on the button placement and the placement of the uh screen itself on the marketing: . user interface: is n't that more the the u uh the user interface part ? project manager: . no i d i think that 's more in . industrial designer: uh all the functional uh aspects of the remote i think are in my department . marketing: maybe more on project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i have to know what it has to do , so if you wan na you know the changing the channels kind of s thing is , i have to integrate that in the design . project manager: okay . so he 's layout and you 're function . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: form function okay . industrial designer: i think that 's a that 's a good separation . marketing: okay . user interface: but do i have to to uh to yeah to make the the menu layout also ? or project manager: yeah . user interface: are you going to do that ? industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah . yeah i guess so . user interface: yeah ? i i 'm going to make project manager: i think i that 's your department yes , user interface: yeah o okay . project manager: because w he already knows what industrial designer: yeah we have to kind of work together . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: if if i make the the the yeah the menu like , i have to state which function has to be in the menu , project manager: but we 're not allowed . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: and then you have to decide , it 's , in a in a way that b is user-friendly . user interface: yeah . okay . y you you are going to make a list of what functions are uh are going to to be on the the screen , the menu screen . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and i 'm going to make a a nice menu uh with with pages and yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think yeah . marketing: with with some l with some layers in it . project manager: yeah and also make clear which buttons to press to get certain result , marketing: so some menus . project manager: because that 's always the difficulty . marketing: yeah . project manager: every device has its own user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . well i guess this this button , the the the okay , project manager: menu okay . marketing: menu okay . or you can incorporate two uh difference uh different buttons . uh like uh for your mobile phone . um so this is only for to get in the menu , or to exit it . project manager: mm . marketing: and then one to confirm , and one to go one step back . project manager: back . yeah . marketing: so it 's like the the save button on your your mobile phone , if you have a nokia or like that . or the or the no button . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: to go one step back you it 's only two extra buttons , user interface: yeah . w we marketing: but if it if it 's very clear that they are for the screen user interface: uh i think we have to to group , to make two groups . um the one group for the for the display , and one group for the basic functions , and industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah but they 're incorporated ? up and down is user interface: yeah okay but we we have a m marketing: yeah because this this is used for both . user interface: yeah but maybe that 's that 's not uh project manager: smart ? user interface: yeah if you 're if you 're z zapping uh with your uh yeah remote control , you can press the the menu button , and then you are suddenly into the the yeah the display . marketing: into your screen . okay . so you industrial designer: you wan na separate uh marketing: l should leave the menu button out of here . user interface: yeah . marketing: and and just put it under the screen , the screen project manager: put it on top . user interface: yeah j just just group group the yeah we make these the advanced functions and these the basic functions . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so we make a yeah a line between them . marketing: yeah . but we should place the screen on top , right ? project manager: well user interface: f oh yeah . okay yeah we swap uh okay . project manager: but that 's uh j jurgen 's department . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . so we make it a marketing: yeah . you just you just find out and . project manager: you just make the layout . you user interface: okay . project manager: do we do the extra two buttons or not ? user interface: uh industrial designer: i think you should . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: it 's easier . if you put too many functions in one button it gets confusing . project manager: yeah okay . that 's true . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . so we have a a menu button and a s project manager: and to , okay and back , also . user interface: okay . okay and back button . marketing: yeah . yeah , or confirm and back . whatever . project manager: and of course the four arrows . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: no . project manager: but those are still y doubly used . both the lcd marketing: should we save this picture , or or you know what it looks like ? user interface: yeah i 'm i 'm not s clear about uh the the extra two buttons . we have a menu button and project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . that that just to to activate the screen . so user interface: that 's the the one with the yeah okay . project manager: menu button access the menu in the lcd screen . marketing: and then with these buttons , woa , y you navigate . project manager: you can navigate . user interface: okay . project manager: but you can also navigate the channels . and the volume . user interface: okay so that that 's not uh yeah that those are project manager: those are both both user interface: multifunctional . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: hey is it interesting for users if we put led lights under the buttons ? so that if you uh press on the menu function that only the buttons that are used for the menu are ligh li light up . marketing: yeah . l l litten up yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: oh five minutes . marketing: that 's very good idea . industrial designer: n marketing: alright . project manager: light uh marketing: yeah that 's a good idea because then it becomes clear which buttons are active now , which you can use . industrial designer: yeah and then it 's also easier to integrate several functions in one button . project manager: yeah sure . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: um marketing: so project manager: anything else ? marketing: those buttons are are lit up . industrial designer: i think not . marketing: but just one thing . should we use those two ? them ? or only this to to scroll ? project manager: i 've marketing: and then use the two functional buttons to confirm , to go into something ? oh no we have to use this to adjust some some bars ? project manager: volume . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah keep it optional 'cause maybe you can you know go left to right and up and down in a in one menu . marketing: yeah . and maybe we should use this also as an okay button , still . and then just only a back button . project manager: well we have those buttons . we use all four . user interface: no industrial designer: the pr the problem with the okay button in the middle is , sorry project manager: yeah okay go ahead . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: sorry , uh is uh if you 're pressing up and down , you can easily press the okay once you , when you 're not already at your choice . user interface: yeah . so maybe make one uh one okay button and and one navigation button . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah that was already decided . marketing: and one back . user interface: yeah the with with the the channel and the volume uh yeah m a multifunctional navigation button . project manager: okay that 's what we decided earlier on . user interface: yeah okay . yeah . project manager: right okay . so marketing: yeah . industrial designer: you wan na close down huh ? project manager: yeah i wan na close down . user interface: project manager: i have to , sorry . marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's not because i do n't like you but marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that 's okay . project manager: yh we have lunch break , industrial designer: already . project manager: and then we can work for thirty minutes , and i have to write very fast to make the minich min minutes . and then uh we 'll see marketing: yeah . industrial designer: alright . how m how long is the lunchbreak ? project manager: i do n't know . nobody told me . marketing: we have to ask . user interface: but do we have to write uh to write down uh the our stuff now ? or first lunchbreak ? industrial designer: okay . project manager: no i th believe there 's first lunch break . user interface: because i i 've everything in my head now so project manager: yeah . or you can just industrial designer: mm . user interface: okay . project manager: yeah ? user interface: yeah . project manager: 'kay . marketing: yes . project manager: marketing: project manager: i think you can put uh the laptop back in the room and user interface: 'kay . industrial designer: this is user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yes sir . marketing: time pressure . project manager: 'kay . yeah it 's a lot of pressure . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . sorry for my uh not finished presentation uh . project manager: that 's okay . oh yeah . user interface: oh no no . marketing: yeah we 'll kick your ass later . no . uh . project manager: industrial designer: bring it on . project manager: i do n't know if it works but it should be saved . marketing: aye y you saved it ? does it save automatically in the project folder ? or project manager: yeah . it 's uh marketing: okay . we 'll see . project manager: should be here . smart board . marketing: just put back my laptop . project manager: do n't know if you can use it but marketing: alright . user interface: okay . marketing: yeah you can open it with the picture preview or stuff like that . user interface: and uh we have to make uh some maps with uh with the all the the data we uh gathered . project manager: yeah . i try to organise it by these three . user interface: . it 's it 's just my own map so i put everything into the project manager: yeah yeah yeah . marketing: project manager: i do n't really mind . i just put the minutes here and we 'll see . user interface: but you got some extra information uh project manager: yeah that 's in the functional design uh folder . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: yeah . yeah that 's just basically what i just showed . user interface: but where do you did you get the newsflash ? project manager: yeah . yeah i got it by user interface: you 're the only one uh okay . project manager: yeah . i 'm gon na get kicked if i do n't do it so marketing: internet . user interface: okay . industrial designer: alright . marketing: alright . user interface: yeah . project manager: make me proud . industrial designer: i 'll try to . marketing: industrial designer: so first we have a lunchbreak now ? user interface: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: alright . project manager: i believe so . just ask . industrial designer: mm-hmm . i dunno where she .

during their discussion of the button layout , the first agreement they achieved was that the power button should be put on the top of the remote control . then the project manager proposed to put it on the right that most people are right-handed , however , considering that a few would be left-handed , the marketing put forward to design some special additions to meet such need .

what did the marketing think of the screen location when discussing the ideal functions and the button layout of the remote control ? </s> industrial designer: . user interface: hello . 'kay . project manager: you all saw the newsflash ? industrial designer: it 's project manager: or you got the same message ? marketing: yeah i i just saw it one minute ago . project manager: yeah sorry . industrial designer: i do n't know . marketing: when i uh industrial designer: i did n't see it yet i think . user interface: newsflash ? d did i miss something ? marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . yeah i received an email so i thought i i ca n't mail you so i thought i 'd just drop it in the folder , but marketing: yeah pretty much . industrial designer: hey what 's wrong with my computer ? user interface: okay . project manager: is it unlocked ? user interface: no . industrial designer: . marketing: mm . yeah that 's my presentation . project manager: woah . i uh kind of opened it . user interface: mm . industrial designer: huh ? marketing: mm ? project manager: uh industrial designer: what the marketing: oh right . user interface: i think you have to uh change your desktop uh project manager: okay . marketing: user interface: size . marketing: ooh . project manager: 'kay . everybody ready ? industrial designer: not really . marketing: well industrial designer: sorry . project manager: no no no . yes yes yes . user interface: computer is uh not functioning ? marketing: alright . project manager: okay . industrial designer: okay . where do i find this ? i 'm not so g display huh ? user interface: uh display . marketing: user interface: and then uh settings ? industrial designer: appearance ? marketing: huh . user interface: mm i 'm not sure i . marketing: you read the newsflash ? project manager: 'kay . can we get started user interface: no . industrial designer: no what was it about ? marketing: hmm . project manager: or is there some pressing issue ? industrial designer: yeah my computer is not functioning properly . project manager: oh no pressing . user interface: marketing: project manager: did you plug in the power cable when you come back ? industrial designer: yeah yeah . no but my screen is reduced in size . project manager: yeah . that 's difficult . yeah . user interface: marketing: what ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: feedback . marketing: hmm . user interface: okay . project manager: industrial designer: okay . marketing: alt delete . project manager: yeah . user interface: format . project manager: format save . marketing: . so it does n't draw the attention away . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: this is dreadful . user interface: i made uh uh my own map . project manager: oh yeah sure . industrial designer: no not this , but the task . user interface: it 's a project manager: you have playstation also ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . no that 's okay . no i just flapped it , closed it , took it here and then this happened . ah . uh where was it ? in settings ? okay . alright . thank you . project manager: huh . industrial designer: do you guys like your tasks ? user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i spent a lot of time thinking about what i was gon na do and then a couple of minutes before this i get my function you know the information that i need . user interface: yeah wa wa you actually yeah . but it it 's not clear what you have to to to type uh type in your presentation . industrial designer: so frustrating . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so marketing: yeah . i i had a whole idea and then just was typing it and then oh . i have to do that so switch . industrial designer: yeah yeah exactly . this presentation is mainly based on my own ideas 'cause i had n't time to intergrate tha the information yet so user interface: yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: really annoying . project manager: okay . so there we are again . marketing: by your humble p_m_ . project manager: yeah . marketing: project manager: okay this is the agenda . um we have three presentations , i heard . marketing: user interface: really . project manager: yeah really . so who wants to start ? marketing: yeah that 's fine . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we have to start it right away ? project manager: yeah . uh this is you ? marketing: functional ? yeah functional requirements . project manager: 'kay . marketing: alright . i 'm gon na talk about functional requirements . um well uh some research has be done uh has been done . uh observing of one hundred uh subjects in the usability lab using a remote control . uh and they also filled in a questionnaire . the findings were um , well you can see them for yourself . they disliked the look-and-feel of current remotes controls . users think they 're ugly . um they do not match the the operating behaviour of the users . so they they d they do n't match what they want to have on it . um they are often lost somewhere in the room . um it takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control . and they 're bad for r_s_i_ . i do n't know uh how a user can reach that but okay . um industrial designer: ts marketing: there is also uh was also some research on uh the most relevant and and and irrelevant uh f functions . uh most irrelevant and less used were audio settings , mono , stereo , uh pitch , bass . um screen settings for brightness and colour and stuff like that . um but they are used . i mean the industrial designer: so they do need to be in the project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah they do need to be on the on the remote control . industrial designer: alright . marketing: i mean if you ca n't control the the sound settings i mean if you dislike a very uh loud bass or something , you you need to change that . project manager: often . marketing: so um yeah we have to . industrial designer: by the way my tv does n't have an equ equaliser but marketing: we c we c yeah i mean w we ca n't project manager: next generation does . industrial designer: okay . marketing: my my tv has , industrial designer: no . alright . marketing: but we we can leave them uh away . uh most relevant , uh most used functions , uh they speak for themselves i guess . uh power button , uh channel , volume selection . uh teletext but we can skip that because i saw the newsflash , and teletext is so outdated that it it 's i should not be used uh any more in the future . project manager: n not used anymore . marketing: so forget this one . user interface: okay . marketing: uh channel settings , so for programming uh your channels in in the right order . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: by the way where did you guys get that newsflash from ? user interface: yeah . i was wondering uh industrial designer: i did n't get anything . marketing: yeah , on on the project uh project manager: yeah . not by mail . i receiv the mail but you do n't . so user interface: but you you 've got more information than uh . marketing: no so it 's a text file n in the project folder . so teletext can be skipped . project manager: that 's in the presentation , so industrial designer: alright . marketing: um there was some research on new features in a remote control . uh about an lcd screen uh and speech recognition . well we got an update for the for the audience . or the the the targeted group . so it 's above forty i guess . project manager: uh below i believe . marketing: the new product ? or below project manager: yeah below forty . marketing: because that 's pretty relevant . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: i thought i read a project manager: our current customers are in the age group forty plus . marketing: yeah ? project manager: and the new product should reach new markets , which is the customers below forty . marketing: below ? okay well user interface: but where did you get uh that information ? project manager: that 's in a newsflash . marketing: that 's that 's in the newsfla project manager: user interface: okay . marketing: okay that 's a good to know . um because you see see a clear distinction between the age groups , concerning the features . user interface: yeah . marketing: i mean uh above forty people are not so interested uh not so interested in a screen or speech recognition . uh but below that age they uh they pretty much are . so i think we can build that in . um yeah well we can skip this part as well , because i thought i read above forty so we could skip the features , but we just have to build them in because uh they find it very interesting . um well we have to keep all the classic functions but make the buttons as user-friendly as possible . um and and also there 's so not only the design of the bus uh buttons but o how you can push them , and stuff like that . so the physical uh aspect of it . um and i think and certainly for for the for the lower age groups , uh nice design , which uh does not make the remote control in your room . user interface: yeah . marketing: it 's it 's actually a part of your interior , of of your design in your room . so it 's the people can say , well what 's that , well that 's my remote control , so it 's d it has to look nice and feel nice , and and have all the functions that uh project manager: yeah . but it also needs to have corporate identity . marketing: yeah so the the logo has to be project manager: present and the colours . marketing: uh present yeah , and the colours as well . project manager: so we ca n't change much of that . industrial designer: do we have uh yeah . marketing: yeah so but i i do n't think that 's that 's a problem because the thing has to have a colour anyway , and most of the times there is a brand present on it . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . yeah . yeah . marketing: so i think that 's not gon na gon na affect it very uh very much . project manager: okay . marketing: well that are the the consequences uh on a marketing uh part . project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: alright . marketing: yes . user interface: okay . project manager: it 's open already so you can use to marketing: . project manager: find yours . user interface: mm . it 's project manager: f_ five . user interface: f_ five . okay . project manager: go jurgen . user interface: oh . what is this ? marketing: user interface: oh no . industrial designer: user interface: how do i uh project manager: you pressed alt f_ four ? user interface: no no no . i pressed the mouse button . project manager: oh great . user interface: industrial designer: it 's th that 's the self-destruct button . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . okay . project manager: uh maybe you can do it from your computer so talk us through it . user interface: okay . um if you all go stand around uh marketing: yeah . just yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: computer industrial designer: alright . marketing: sure . user interface: um project manager: that 's nice . user interface: no . project manager: f_ five . yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: alright . user interface: i uh had uh two examples . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um this one is the the yeah the advanced one with a lot of options and functions and buttons . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: this the easy one marketing: yeah . user interface: i think we have to to combine them . and uh yeah merge the best functions of all examples . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . user interface: um but yeah the the age is uh under forty ? project manager: the mm yeah . marketing: yeah and and and marketing research stated that that that kind of users are not afraid of of a lot of functions . user interface: so we okay so so we have the option for more functions . marketing: so not not too much but yeah . user interface: um yeah . industrial designer: and we do have to integrate the screen and the the speech marketing: and the speech recognition yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: alright . user interface: uh yeah this this one we can remove for kids . it 's just only for adults so uh we can uh use some advanced options . but marketing: yeah from age of sixteen so yeah . user interface: yeah but i prefer we we uh use the the basic options uh yeah . we have to to make them very easy so for just uh zapping around the channels you can just push one button . marketing: mm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: but if you want to to use your your video recorder or something else , you should use use an uh an advanced option . marketing: yeah but uh the the newsflash also stated that it should control only one device , only your television . user interface: okay one device . project manager: yeah . so n it 's very easy . user interface: okay . i did n't see . marketing: so w project manager: now yeah it 's okay . user interface: okay and i also uh yeah . w yeah . marketing: so there are not extra options in this case , but uh project manager: okay . user interface: we have to make it fashionable . like you uh said uh before . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: uh yeah the basic functions . um yeah only use a extra function if they are really needed . project manager: yeah so maybe you can hide them or something . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah well what what we can do with the screen is is all the the configuration options , you can put that in the screen . project manager: yeah you make a screen menu or something . marketing: and the and the yeah screen menu to to to uh to do that , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: and then the basic function just on the device itself . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so it looks very simple and all the advanced features are hidden in the screen , uh with a clear menu . project manager: yeah and the other oth other uh functionality is the screen . user interface: yeah . project manager: what does the screen do ? user interface: did i uh industrial designer: alright . marketing: uh . what are wh project manager: yeah . it 's low power . user interface: did i break it ? marketing: what . project manager: so what does the screen do ? they said they needed it but what does it do ? what do they want with the screen ? user interface: for for the advanced functions i think . project manager: yeah that 's what we make it up . marketing: yeah well it yeah it did n't project manager: so but what did the marketing marketing: it did n't say what they want to do with the screen . project manager: no . marketing: well i , my guess is it 's it 's pretty handy for advanced uh advanced functions . project manager: yeah okay it 's handy . with no predefined uh user interface: like searching for channels and industrial designer: ah look . marketing: yeah searching for channels , programming them . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we have your uh oh never mind . project manager: we 're back online . user interface: okay . that 's uh i 'm al i 'm almost finished so project manager: okay . user interface: um the we have to to to watch out for the i if we make it f very fashionable , it it the functional functionality will go down . so we have to make uh a compromise between functionality and fashional fashionable project manager: mm-hmm . content and form . user interface: yeah content and form . industrial designer: . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: now that that was uh was the end . project manager: that was the end . okay . user interface: yes . industrial designer: okay . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: well my presentation is a bit uh sucky . marketing: well you can improvise right ? project manager: uh which one is it ? technical functions ? industrial designer: yeah a little bit . project manager: this one ? industrial designer: uh no . no no . project manager: functional requirements ? industrial designer: yeah i think that would be it then . project manager: no . user interface: project manager: you did n't put it in ? or industrial designer: i have no idea . marketing: so we we can go for industrial designer: that w . project manager: it 's not really english . industrial designer: let me check . i know . project manager: uh kick off . oh working design i got it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so we can go for the look-and-feel of the the left example , and then a screen on top of it . project manager: here you go . industrial designer: alright how do i uh skip pages ? project manager: just uh press uh yeah . yeah . industrial designer: the keys yeah ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: alright . um yeah well i was working on this before i got my information . so i was just working off the top of my head and using my colin common knowledge about uh remote controls . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: industrial designer: and well the info on the website which came too late . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um so i did n't really know what kind of functions we had to put into it yet . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so uh uh this is basically an overview of what we discussed in our last uh meeting . those were my uh starting points . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh i was working on a s yeah on a schedule , and i was supposed to do it like this . but um yeah then uh the information came and it was kind of exact with all the steps in the remote control that i had to follow , so i was trying to organise them for myself . project manager: marketing: project manager: mm . industrial designer: and then make the project manager: design yeah . industrial designer: the design , a the actual design , marketing: design ? yeah . industrial designer: but i never came around to do that . so i 'm not really sure what i 'm supposed to say about it . marketing: okay . industrial designer: i mean everything speaks for itself i guess . mean you press a button um the it tru goes , it sends a signal to a chip , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: which uh translates it into infrared signal of certin spatial frequencies . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah frequency . yeah . industrial designer: and uh or temporal fr frequencies actually . and then uh through a uh transformer , it the signal gets boosted and then sent to the to the receiver on the tv project manager: yeah decoder . industrial designer: and the tv will translate it into a function . um yeah well this was actually all i got around to do . project manager: blank . yeah okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i mean i dunno if i 'm too slow for this stuff , but uh project manager: work harder . marketing: user interface: okay shou should we make a list of the of all the functions we want uh marketing: industrial designer: yeah . whatever . project manager: yeah . uh marketing: yeah we want to incorporate in uh into it . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'kay . um for those that did n't see yet um the basic new requirements of the management were no teletext , only for tv . uh it should be designed for a use g uh group below forty , but i do n't think it 's w wrong if we can uh target the current customer group as well . marketing: mm . project manager: and uh the corporate identity should be clear in the design of the remote control . and we have to decide on the functions , and on the , let 's see what was it , uh the target group . we have to make be clear what that is . marketing: group of users , or project manager: yeah users . marketing: because it says below forty i mean . project manager: yeah so i think it 's easy but marketing: i guess that 's that 's the tar yeah uh or male and female user interface: but uh it 's it 's also for children or just uh project manager: yeah it 's below forty so we can decide where to marketing: uh six the marketing research started on s on the age of sixteen . user interface: okay . okay . marketing: sixteen to twenty five , twenty five to thirty five , thirty five to forty five , something like that . project manager: okay . so below forty is okay . marketing: so um project manager: but we need an lower level which to s uh focus . marketing: how do you mean ? project manager: so is it from sixteen to forty ? is it from twenty to forty ? is it from thirty ? marketing: uh sixteen to forty . project manager: yeah ? 'kay . user interface: yeah . we we have to marketing: well i i guess people of sixteen are are quite used to technology . project manager: yeah . marketing: so they they adapt to it pretty soon i guess . user interface: and if we have a larger public we have uh yeah more options to to uh sell our product . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah so what we might wan na do is uh yeah cust i have customised the screen functions , if you know what i mean . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: the uh younger users are more acquainted with these kind of machines so they can use more advanced functions . but maybe elderly people do n't understand it so well , so they need a simpler remote . project manager: design . mm . industrial designer: and yeah that you can choose what the design displays , or wha whatever . user interface: yeah that 's that 's why uh i wanted to to make yeah two uh different uh yeah groups of functions . the the simple functions for for the the whole public , and the the advanced options for the younger people yeah who are more yeah experienced with uh industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . and maybe y industrial designer: experienced yeah . marketing: but uh all incorporated in the screen or or just on the remote itself ? user interface: na i w i should uh put uh the the yeah the extra advanced options on the onto the onscreen display . marketing: yeah project manager: yeah . marketing: like like you have a visual of the of the brightness with with a kind of sliding bar and a bus and and stuff like that for sound and and vis and and visuals ? project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . so is you should have a menu for all the the functions you do n't use regular and which are marketing: uh you can make a if you make a drawing . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . aye yeah . marketing: uh uh . project manager: shall i uh marketing: uh black 's okay . and draw it very big . project manager: yeah . it 's okay . marketing: oh . yeah . project manager: no , it does n't have line control , so marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah we get the marketing: yeah well , this is basically uh it 's industrial designer: the remote ? project manager: the remote , yeah ? marketing: alright the remote ? um well usually the power button is on top i guess . project manager: basic . is on top . which should be easy , easily reached with the thumb . marketing: yeah so it should fit right in into your hand . user interface: yeah . l left top or right uh top ? project manager: t i s should said right . marketing: right . right . user interface: yeah , right . industrial designer: right top . marketing: i most people are right-handed so user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah definitely . marketing: maybe left-handed special addition , but okay . user interface: marketing: if you put it like like here . or something . i dunno . um then you could put a screen , like on a mobile phone , also on top i guess . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah but if you are using the the normal functions , the the basic functions , you normally press them on the u yeah . project manager: do the also with the thumb . so it should be a little bit longer so that you can put your uh thumb , also reach the middle . or you should screen at the bottom and then you can see it very clearly . marketing: okay so y yeah you have you have it in your hand , and the screen is below , and the buttons are in the middle . project manager: you you need to be able to hold it so user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: okay for example if you put the screen here , it 's more about the functions now than the than the layout . project manager: yeah okay that 's true . layout . that 's for the marketing: does n't work too well . it 's uh it 's bent . project manager: user interface: project manager: i ca n't help it . marketing: . user interface: you broke it . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: . project manager: man . marketing: right . project manager: yeah okay . marketing: okay you get it . uh for example if y if you put all the project manager: marketing: right . project manager: you want the normal piece of paper ? and you have a pen ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and might be easier huh ? marketing: maybe this . kind of works . project manager: yeah ? marketing: like if you have like uh ten buttons for for all the for all the channels , project manager: mm-hmm . uh . marketing: um and here one for for project manager: and the for flipping up and down . user interface: yeah yeah . and volume control . marketing: yeah that that usually uh like here , here , here , here . industrial designer: yeah i project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so you have up and down for the for the channels , and left and right for the volume uh project manager: and left to right . and those can also be used for the menu . industrial designer: yeah exactly . i thought but this is really your department , that we need just the functional display and four cursors . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah okay but this is function so if you can use them for multiple things marketing: and you you have industrial designer: and marketing: most of the time you have one button in the middle . it says menu , industrial designer: yeah okay . project manager: for the menu . yeah . marketing: and then if you press it you the screen gets activated and then you can use these buttons to scroll up and down and left and right to go into functon project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and then just project manager: yeah . marketing: mo most of the time this menu button is also like okay , to to confirm a a kind of action . project manager: yeah . marketing: so you scroll into it , okay . you select a function like v like uh bass . you just adjust it with these two buttons . project manager: yeah . marketing: then okay to confirm , and then uh on on each on each screen there 's there should be an option to go back to a to a upper level . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and then finally say okay , exit . or or one button to exit it . user interface: yeah . marketing: uh in one time i dunno , that 's not really my department . user interface: and do we need a a logo on our uh remote control , or marketing: that 's more your uh your department to to uh to project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . but it should be if the screen is here then the logo should be like on on top , user interface: on the left uh top yeah . marketing: yeah . i mean it 's uh project manager: yeah but that depends on where you put the screen . user interface: okay . project manager: but it 's essential that there is a screen . marketing: yeah . yeah i mean the position of the screen is also more essential than i mean we we look where we have space left and then put the logo over there . project manager: yeah . and for the speech uh recognition part , if we want to incorporate that , we need a microphone . marketing: but um yeah so it should be i mean if you have it in your hand here , should be on top somewhere , maybe . project manager: yeah . this would be uh industrial designer: why did we wan na put the display in the bottom ? marketing: i mean i project manager: no that 's not s sure so industrial designer: okay . marketing: that 's not sure project manager: uh we need a display . marketing: but it 's user interface: yeah may maybe because you 're industrial designer: because yeah if you use the functions your hand will block the display . user interface: yeah okay but only for the basic functi if you 're going to use the advanced option , you 're going to press the the menu button and then yeah . marketing: yeah i mean a screen on top looks more lo logical to me . industrial designer: normal for logical t project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: also because people use m mobile phones and they also have the screen on top . project manager: yeah they 're used to it . user interface: okay the yeah . that 's possible . marketing: so you you just have to reach a little bit for the power button . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i mean if you grab it . industrial designer: on once it 's on it 's on . you do n't need the power button . marketing: but most most of the times if a if if a tv 's on standby people just press a channel to put it on . user interface: yeah , okay . okay we put it on top . marketing: so we put this on top , and then make the corporate logo user interface: yeah . marketing: like over here . r_r_ . and j and the microphone , i mean it can be very small . if you look at your mobile phones are some stripes , little little holes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: maybe on the top or even on the side . project manager: marketing: yeah maybe on the side . i mean if the if the microphone is good . project manager: yeah but then it 's possible that you cover it with your hand so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: true . marketing: yeah okay . so on the on the top is better . project manager: i think that top is the best option . industrial designer: but if you uh if you hold the ma the remote like this , if you put it on the top on the side project manager: yeah okay . industrial designer: i dunno . should be able to work . marketing: yeah . . project manager: depends on the sensitivity of the microphone , but i think that 's okay . industrial designer: never mind . can we leave this up to you ? user interface: marketing: yeah it does n't matter that much . so but um the screen is on top ? which functions did we have left ? i mean this is basically numbers , volume , uh channel up and down . project manager: volume . up . channel up and down , and the control of the advanced options . marketing: screen is over there . project manager: so maybe it , we should decide what advanced options we want to put in the lcd screen . user interface: yeah . if we marketing: yeah . yeah . that 's uh that 's a good one . industrial designer: yeah so we we needed to integrate the sound and uh and image options right ? project manager: yeah so sounds ? industrial designer: like uh bass uh marketing: yeah . sound ? industrial designer: so we need kind of an equaliser . if you marketing: yeah . equaliser . so if you have sound but not too advanced . i mean most tvs use only treble and bass . project manager: yeah user interface: yeah it it 's just a remote control so project manager: and they 're industrial designer: yeah treble , middl middle , bass or something . project manager: they 're not used often so user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . it 's uh pretty hard to write . project manager: industrial designer: ah as project manager: yeah just industrial designer: . marketing: mm . okay but you have sound ? project manager: yeah sounds . marketing: yeah just project manager: yeah . marketing: oh y you have digital uh industrial designer: . marketing: better write it down over there yeah . project manager: of course . i 'm just a secretary . marketing: so you have sound . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: coffee ? marketing: uh yeah sound and then within sound i guess treble and bass ? industrial designer: yes please . project manager: treble bass . industrial designer: the mono stereo option ? marketing: yeah . also . project manager: uh industrial designer: and there there was something else also . project manager: pitch i believe , yeah . industrial designer: and then pitch . marketing: pitch . yeah . but pitch , is n't that yeah that 's the the height of the tone . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: the fr yeah the frequency of the tones , yeah . marketing: yeah okay , project manager: yeah and mono stereo . marketing: wh why would you use that ? industrial designer: yeah is n't that that depends on the on the signal of the of what program you 're watching . marketing: if people like talk like uh project manager: mm . marketing: yeah . project manager: and also the tuning part ? marketing: programming part . project manager: yeah programming . so channel programming ? marketing: uh so we have sound , yeah ? channel programming . industrial designer: and yeah in the functionality of the user interface: television uh itself uh industrial designer: no no of the remote uh do do we want uh the buttons to make sound when you press them ? as a confirmation or whatever you know ? user interface: mm . marketing: mm . project manager: mm . industrial designer: i dunno . marketing: i think it g it gets annoying . project manager: yeah . marketing: i mean most mobile phones used that in the beginning but user interface: we we could make an option for it , but uh you can disable s industrial designer: under the a yeah advanced option menu you can put those things . user interface: yeah . but uh the the television itself has also the the options brightness and uh screen colour etcetera . so marketing: yeah . project manager: contrast yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah but people do n't want to sit on their knees on their knees in front of their television with only three buttons then it 's very hard to project manager: mm . no . uh , so contrast , marketing: y yeah contrast and brightness ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: bright , marketing: yeah those are the most used i guess . if you look at your monitor . project manager: uh and the others were in your presentation right ? so i can just copy those ? marketing: well yeah well i guess that these were the only ones , i guess . project manager: okay . it 's easy . industrial designer: but so we have we have tv options , which is all this . marketing: yeah . i will look it up . project manager: yeah the button options and the lcd options . industrial designer: the sound , sound and image . and you have in that uh the indeed the remote control options . project manager: indeed . marketing: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so we need two menus kind of thing . project manager: yeah you have basically a button menu , which you can use directly , uh according to the old principle . industrial designer: uh-huh . project manager: and the lcd options are activated by some some software options , thats communicates with the infrared uh decoder yeah . marketing: yeah with the chip and then i mean project manager: so you you have an additional processor and and software part . marketing: uh yeah . well yeah we have power button , whether that 's present . project manager: compared to o industrial designer: alright . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: channel volume selection present . uh numbers present . yeah a audio settings , mono , stereo , pitch , bass , treble . screen settings , brightness and colour . project manager: l_ s yeah . colour . yeah i i call it contrast . marketing: yeah con contrast is project manager: yeah i make it c colour . marketing: yeah okay , colour and brightness . project manager: yeah . marketing: um and what you say , channel settings or channel programming ? so you you have an option to to start scanning all the frequencies , and when it encounters one , well it shows on your tv . and then you can um project manager: yeah and automatically um mm-hmm . marketing: uh and then you can select uh a number in your remote on which you want to save it . project manager: yeah so i 've g channel program is autoseek ? marketing: yeah , autoseek . project manager: uh name a channel , or marketing: well most tvs automatically display the name , which they get through the cable . project manager: oh they get automatic names , okay . marketing: yeah . so you only have to choose the position on your project manager: . marketing: it only has to match the the channel frequency on your tv , with with the with the position on your tv and and so your remote . project manager: yeah . yeah but can you also say i want f uh veronica on the channel number uh five or industrial designer: help . marketing: if you already programmed it . project manager: yeah . marketing: if you want to move it . yeah that should be possible too . project manager: yeah . how do you call that ? marketing: yeah how do you call that ? mm ? wait you you should be able to to browse through a list or something , which w displays all the all the values , all the channels which are possible . project manager: channels ? yeah . marketing: i mean like one to f thirty of or ninety or whatever . project manager: ninety nine or something . yeah . marketing: just browse through it and then um in some kind of way see if it if it if it is programmed . project manager: s swap channels ? can i call it that ? marketing: yeah . swap channels . project manager: swap 's good option . okay . uh other functions ? marketing: so you most of the time if you if you swap it s uh let 's say for example you have uh r_t_l_ five on on channel five . and veronica on channel eight and you want to move veronica to channel five , most of the times you override the previous uh the previous one . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . well that 's 's up to uh mister user interface designer . user interface: marketing: yeah . it 's it 's pretty uh user interface: okay . marketing: yeah i mean you have to look on on the menu industrial designer: working design . doch . project manager: also . marketing: on the tv . project manager: that 's you 're industrial designer: he only has to figure out how it has to look . project manager: yeah but also , which buttons you have to press to get a certain result ? industrial designer: and how user interface: yeah . industrial designer: to use project manager: and the working design was to specify how ph the physical interation between the components was , as i believe . industrial designer: yeah okay . but you did your homework . but um yeah . okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: or or is it too hard to to ju to just do it all on your remote ? to programme the channels ? project manager: no i do n't think so . industrial designer: no no . it should be able to do any remote . user interface: no that 's marketing: uh . project manager: but i think the communication with the television is difficult . but that 's not our part . marketing: yeah . project manager: we do n't have to design a protocol so marketing: no . industrial designer: no . project manager: marketing: that 's true . that 's true . industrial designer: thank god . user interface: okay marketing: yeah . so we have a figure a figure out a way to to do that easily . i mean th the autoseek is is not a problem . project manager: no that 's the marketing: i mean you uh you uh current channel and then then it just says , uh on which number do you want to save this , and you just press a number on your remote , and then say confirm , okay , and then it 's it 's saved . it 's easier , it 's it 's it 's harder to , if you have already programmed it , to to swap . project manager: yeah . so but marketing: so we have to think of something for that . project manager: um the user interface designer can design a menu for all these function i put them on the marketing: yeah k kind of structure into layers . user interface: on the uh yeah can you i make a a map with with all the yeah 'cause it 's now there are lots and lots of documents project manager: . yeah . yeah i can . user interface: and project manager: i 'll just try to reorganise uh things . um marketing: so project manager: so you design the basic function menu for the lcd screen ? uh um i think marketing: and and the layout of of the thing itself . project manager: th i think the yeah the layout of the screen user interface: the the layout of the remote control ? project manager: and i think you can concentrate more on the button placement and the placement of the uh screen itself on the marketing: . user interface: is n't that more the the u uh the user interface part ? project manager: . no i d i think that 's more in . industrial designer: uh all the functional uh aspects of the remote i think are in my department . marketing: maybe more on project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i have to know what it has to do , so if you wan na you know the changing the channels kind of s thing is , i have to integrate that in the design . project manager: okay . so he 's layout and you 're function . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: form function okay . industrial designer: i think that 's a that 's a good separation . marketing: okay . user interface: but do i have to to uh to yeah to make the the menu layout also ? or project manager: yeah . user interface: are you going to do that ? industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah . yeah i guess so . user interface: yeah ? i i 'm going to make project manager: i think i that 's your department yes , user interface: yeah o okay . project manager: because w he already knows what industrial designer: yeah we have to kind of work together . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: if if i make the the the yeah the menu like , i have to state which function has to be in the menu , project manager: but we 're not allowed . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: and then you have to decide , it 's , in a in a way that b is user-friendly . user interface: yeah . okay . y you you are going to make a list of what functions are uh are going to to be on the the screen , the menu screen . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and i 'm going to make a a nice menu uh with with pages and yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think yeah . marketing: with with some l with some layers in it . project manager: yeah and also make clear which buttons to press to get certain result , marketing: so some menus . project manager: because that 's always the difficulty . marketing: yeah . project manager: every device has its own user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . well i guess this this button , the the the okay , project manager: menu okay . marketing: menu okay . or you can incorporate two uh difference uh different buttons . uh like uh for your mobile phone . um so this is only for to get in the menu , or to exit it . project manager: mm . marketing: and then one to confirm , and one to go one step back . project manager: back . yeah . marketing: so it 's like the the save button on your your mobile phone , if you have a nokia or like that . or the or the no button . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: to go one step back you it 's only two extra buttons , user interface: yeah . w we marketing: but if it if it 's very clear that they are for the screen user interface: uh i think we have to to group , to make two groups . um the one group for the for the display , and one group for the basic functions , and industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah but they 're incorporated ? up and down is user interface: yeah okay but we we have a m marketing: yeah because this this is used for both . user interface: yeah but maybe that 's that 's not uh project manager: smart ? user interface: yeah if you 're if you 're z zapping uh with your uh yeah remote control , you can press the the menu button , and then you are suddenly into the the yeah the display . marketing: into your screen . okay . so you industrial designer: you wan na separate uh marketing: l should leave the menu button out of here . user interface: yeah . marketing: and and just put it under the screen , the screen project manager: put it on top . user interface: yeah j just just group group the yeah we make these the advanced functions and these the basic functions . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so we make a yeah a line between them . marketing: yeah . but we should place the screen on top , right ? project manager: well user interface: f oh yeah . okay yeah we swap uh okay . project manager: but that 's uh j jurgen 's department . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . so we make it a marketing: yeah . you just you just find out and . project manager: you just make the layout . you user interface: okay . project manager: do we do the extra two buttons or not ? user interface: uh industrial designer: i think you should . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: it 's easier . if you put too many functions in one button it gets confusing . project manager: yeah okay . that 's true . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . so we have a a menu button and a s project manager: and to , okay and back , also . user interface: okay . okay and back button . marketing: yeah . yeah , or confirm and back . whatever . project manager: and of course the four arrows . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: no . project manager: but those are still y doubly used . both the lcd marketing: should we save this picture , or or you know what it looks like ? user interface: yeah i 'm i 'm not s clear about uh the the extra two buttons . we have a menu button and project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . that that just to to activate the screen . so user interface: that 's the the one with the yeah okay . project manager: menu button access the menu in the lcd screen . marketing: and then with these buttons , woa , y you navigate . project manager: you can navigate . user interface: okay . project manager: but you can also navigate the channels . and the volume . user interface: okay so that that 's not uh yeah that those are project manager: those are both both user interface: multifunctional . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: hey is it interesting for users if we put led lights under the buttons ? so that if you uh press on the menu function that only the buttons that are used for the menu are ligh li light up . marketing: yeah . l l litten up yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: oh five minutes . marketing: that 's very good idea . industrial designer: n marketing: alright . project manager: light uh marketing: yeah that 's a good idea because then it becomes clear which buttons are active now , which you can use . industrial designer: yeah and then it 's also easier to integrate several functions in one button . project manager: yeah sure . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: um marketing: so project manager: anything else ? marketing: those buttons are are lit up . industrial designer: i think not . marketing: but just one thing . should we use those two ? them ? or only this to to scroll ? project manager: i 've marketing: and then use the two functional buttons to confirm , to go into something ? oh no we have to use this to adjust some some bars ? project manager: volume . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah keep it optional 'cause maybe you can you know go left to right and up and down in a in one menu . marketing: yeah . and maybe we should use this also as an okay button , still . and then just only a back button . project manager: well we have those buttons . we use all four . user interface: no industrial designer: the pr the problem with the okay button in the middle is , sorry project manager: yeah okay go ahead . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: sorry , uh is uh if you 're pressing up and down , you can easily press the okay once you , when you 're not already at your choice . user interface: yeah . so maybe make one uh one okay button and and one navigation button . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah that was already decided . marketing: and one back . user interface: yeah the with with the the channel and the volume uh yeah m a multifunctional navigation button . project manager: okay that 's what we decided earlier on . user interface: yeah okay . yeah . project manager: right okay . so marketing: yeah . industrial designer: you wan na close down huh ? project manager: yeah i wan na close down . user interface: project manager: i have to , sorry . marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's not because i do n't like you but marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that 's okay . project manager: yh we have lunch break , industrial designer: already . project manager: and then we can work for thirty minutes , and i have to write very fast to make the minich min minutes . and then uh we 'll see marketing: yeah . industrial designer: alright . how m how long is the lunchbreak ? project manager: i do n't know . nobody told me . marketing: we have to ask . user interface: but do we have to write uh to write down uh the our stuff now ? or first lunchbreak ? industrial designer: okay . project manager: no i th believe there 's first lunch break . user interface: because i i 've everything in my head now so project manager: yeah . or you can just industrial designer: mm . user interface: okay . project manager: yeah ? user interface: yeah . project manager: 'kay . marketing: yes . project manager: marketing: project manager: i think you can put uh the laptop back in the room and user interface: 'kay . industrial designer: this is user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yes sir . marketing: time pressure . project manager: 'kay . yeah it 's a lot of pressure . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . sorry for my uh not finished presentation uh . project manager: that 's okay . oh yeah . user interface: oh no no . marketing: yeah we 'll kick your ass later . no . uh . project manager: industrial designer: bring it on . project manager: i do n't know if it works but it should be saved . marketing: aye y you saved it ? does it save automatically in the project folder ? or project manager: yeah . it 's uh marketing: okay . we 'll see . project manager: should be here . smart board . marketing: just put back my laptop . project manager: do n't know if you can use it but marketing: alright . user interface: okay . marketing: yeah you can open it with the picture preview or stuff like that . user interface: and uh we have to make uh some maps with uh with the all the the data we uh gathered . project manager: yeah . i try to organise it by these three . user interface: . it 's it 's just my own map so i put everything into the project manager: yeah yeah yeah . marketing: project manager: i do n't really mind . i just put the minutes here and we 'll see . user interface: but you got some extra information uh project manager: yeah that 's in the functional design uh folder . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: yeah . yeah that 's just basically what i just showed . user interface: but where do you did you get the newsflash ? project manager: yeah . yeah i got it by user interface: you 're the only one uh okay . project manager: yeah . i 'm gon na get kicked if i do n't do it so marketing: internet . user interface: okay . industrial designer: alright . marketing: alright . user interface: yeah . project manager: make me proud . industrial designer: i 'll try to . marketing: industrial designer: so first we have a lunchbreak now ? user interface: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: alright . project manager: i believe so . just ask . industrial designer: mm-hmm . i dunno where she .

the user interface proposed to add a logo on the remote control , but the problem came that it did matter much how to locate the screen and the logo . at first the marketing planned to put the logo on the left top but then he elaborated himself that the logo should be the last one to be considered that it would be put wherever space was left , instead of letting the logo decide where the screen would be put .

what was discussed in the meeting ? </s> grad c: hmm . testing channel two . grad e: two , two . grad c: two . grad e: two . oh . grad d: hello ? grad b: hmm ? yeah thank you . ok well , so ralf and tilman are here . professor f: ok . great . great . grad b: made it safely . professor f: so the what w we h have been doing i they would like us all to read these digits . but we do n't all read them but a couple people read them . phd a: ok . professor f: uh , wan na give them all with german accents today or ? grad b: sure . professor f: ok . grad b: ok and the way you do it is you just read the numbers not as uh each single , so just like i do it . phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: ok . first you read the transcript number . turn . grad d: ok , uh what 's professor f: ok . let 's be done with this . phd a: ok . professor f: ok . this is ami , who and this is tilman and ralf . phd a: hi . uh - huh . nice to meet you . grad d: hi . professor f: hi . ok . so we 're gon na try to finish by five so people who want to can go hear nancy chang 's talk , uh downstairs . phd a: hmm . professor f: and you guys are g giving talks on tomorrow and wednesday lunch times , phd a: yes . grad d: mmm . professor f: right ? that 's great . ok so , do y do you know what we 're gon na do ? grad b: i thought two things uh we 'll introduce ourselves and what we do . and um we already talked with andreas , thilo and david and some lines of code were already written today and almost tested and just gon na say we have um again the recognizer to parser thing where we 're working on and that should be no problem and then that can be sort of developed uh as needed when we get enter the tourism domain . em we have talked this morning with the with tilman about the generator . phd a: s grad b: and um there one of our diligent workers has to sort of volunteer to look over tilman 's shoulder while he is changing the grammars to english phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: because w we have we face two ways . either we do a syllable concatenating um grammar for the english generation which is sort of starting from scratch and doing it the easy way , or we simply adopt the ah um more in - depth um style that is implemented in the german system and um are then able not only to produce strings but also the syntactic parse uh not parse not the syntactic tree that is underneath in the syntactic structure which is the way we decided we were gon na go because a , it 's easier in the beginning phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: and um it does require some some knowledge of of those grammars and and and some ling linguistic background . but um it should n't be a problem for anyone . professor f: ok so that sounds good . johno , are you gon na have some time t to do that uh w with these guys ? grad e: sure . professor f: cuz y you 're the grammar maven . grad e: ok . professor f: i mean it makes sense , grad e: yeah . professor f: does n't it ? yeah good . ok . so , i think that 's probably the the right way to do that . and an yeah , so i i actually wan na f to find out about it too , but i may not have time to get in . grad b: the the ultimate goal is that before they leave we we can run through the entire system input through output on at least one or two sample things . and um and by virtue of doing that then in this case johno will have acquired the knowledge of how to extend it . ad infinitum . when needed , if needed , when wanted and so forth . professor f: ok that sounds great . grad b: and um also um ralf has hooked up with david and you 're gon na continue either all through tonight or tomorrow on whatever to get the er parser interface working . grad d: mmm . grad b: they are thinning out and thickening out lattices and doing this kind of stuff to see what works best . grad d: mmm , yep . professor f: great . so , you guys enjoy your weekend ? phd a: yes , very much so . grad d: yeah , very much professor f: ok , before before you got put to work ? grad d: yeah professor f: great . ok , so that 's sort of one branch is to get us caught up on what 's going on . also of course it would be really nice to know what the plans are , in addition to what 's sort of already in code . phd a: yes . professor f: and we can d i dunno w w was there uh a time when we were set up to do that ? it probably will work better if we do it later in the week , after we actually understand uh better what 's going on . phd a: yes . grad d: hmm . phd a: yeah . professor f: so when do you guys leave ? phd a: um we 're here through sunday , grad d: oh phd a: so all through friday would be fine . professor f: oh , ok , so ok , so so anyt we 'll find a time later in the week to uh get together and talk about your understanding of what smartkom plans are . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and how we can change them . phd a: yes . sure . professor f: uh , grad b: should we already set a date for that ? might be beneficial while we 're all here . professor f: ok ? um what what does not work for me is thursday afternoon . i can do earlier in the day on thursday , or um most of the time on friday , not all . grad b: thursday morning sounds fine ? professor f: wha - but , johno , phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: what are your constraints ? grad e: um thursday afternoon does n't work for me , but grad b: neither does thursday morning , no ? grad e: uh thursday morning should be fine . phd a: ok . professor f: eleven ? eleven on thursday ? grad e: i was just thinking i w i will have leavened by eleven . professor f: right . right . this is then out of deference to our non - morning people . phd a: mm - hmm . ok . so at eleven ? grad d: hmm . phd a: thursday around eleven ? ok . professor f: yeah . and actually we can invite um andreas as well . grad b: uh he will be in washington , though . professor f: oh that 's true . he 's off off on his trip already . grad b: but um david is here and he 's actually knows everything about the smartkom recognizer . professor f: thilo . ok well yeah maybe we 'll see if david could make it . that would be good . grad b: ok so facing to to what we 've sort of been doing here um well for one thing we 're also using this room to collect data . phd a: yeah obviously . grad b: um um not this type of data , phd a: oh , ok . grad b: no not meeting data but sort of sort ah our version of a wizard experiment such not like the ones in munich but pretty close to it . phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: the major difference to the munich ones is that we do it via the telephone phd a: ok . grad b: even though all the recording is done here and so it 's a sort of a computer call system that gives you tourist information phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: tells you how to get places . and it breaks halfway through the experiment and a human operator comes on . and part of that is sort of trying to find out whether people change their linguistic verbal behavior when first thinking they speak to a machine and then to a human . phd a: yeah . grad b: and we 're setting it up so that we can we hope to implant certain intentions in people . for example um we have first looked at a simple sentence that `` how do i get to the powder - tower ? `` ok so you have the castle of heidelberg phd a: ok . grad b: and there is a tower and it 's called powder - tower . phd a: oh , ok . yeah . grad b: and um so what will you parse out of that sentence ? probably something that we specified in m - three - l , that is @ @ { comment } `` action go to whatever domain , object whatever powder - tower `` . grad d: mmm . grad b: and maybe some model will tell us , some gps module , in the mobile scenario where the person is at the moment . and um we 've sort of gone through that once before in the deep mail project and we noticed that first of all what are i should 've brought some slides , but what our so here 's the tower . think of this as a two - dimensional representation of the tower . and our system led people here , to a point where they were facing a wall in front of the tower . there is no entrance there , but it just happens to be the closest point of the road network to the geometric center because that 's how the algorithm works . so we took out that part of the road network as a hack and then it found actually the way to the entrance . which was now the closest point of the road network to phd a: yeah . grad b: ok , geometric center . but what we actually observed in heidelberg is that most people when they want to go there they actually do n't want to enter , because it 's not really interesting . they wan na go to a completely different point where they can look at it and take a picture . phd a: oh , ok . grad d: hmm . phd a: yeah . grad b: and so what uh uh a s you s let 's say a simple parse from a s from an utterance wo n't really give us is what the person actually wants . does he wan na go there to see it ? does he wan na go there now ? later ? how does the person wan na go there ? is that person more likely to want to walk there ? walk a scenic route ? and so forth . there are all kinds of decisions that we have identified in terms of getting to places and in terms of finding information about things . and we are constructing and then we 've identified more or less the extra - linguistic parameters that may f play a role . information related to the user and information related to the situation . and we also want to look closely on the linguistic information that what we can get from the utterance . that 's part of why we implant these intentions in the data collection to see whether people actually phrase things differently whether they want to enter in order to buy something or whether they just wan na go there to look at it . and um so the idea is to construct uh um suitable interfaces and a belief - net for a module that actually tries to guess what the underlying intention was . and then enrich or augment the m - three - l structures with what it thought what more it sort of got out of that utterance . so if it can make a good suggestion , `` hey ! `` you know , `` that person does n't wan na enter . that person just wants to take a picture , `` cuz he just bought film , or `` that person wants to enter because he discussed the admission fee before `` . or `` that person wants to enter because he wants to buy something and that you usually do inside of buildings `` and so forth . these ah these types of uh these bits of additional information are going to be embedded into the m - three - l structure in an sort of subfield that we have reserved . and if the action planner does something with it , great . if not you know , then that 's also something um that we ca n't really at least we { comment } want to offer the extra information . we do n't really um we 're not too worried . phd a: mm - hmm . grad d: hmm . grad b: i mean t s ultimately if you have if you can offer that information , somebody 's gon na s do something with it sooner or later . that 's sort of part of our belief . grad e: what was he saying ? grad b: um , for example , right now i know the gis from email is not able to calculate these viewpoints . so that 's a functionality that does n't exist yet to do that dynamically , phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: but if we can offer it that distinction , maybe somebody will go ahead and implement it . surely nobody 's gon na go ahead and implement it if it 's never gon na be used , so . what have i forgotten about ? oh yeah , how we do it , professor f: well th uh grad b: yeah that 's the professor f: no no . it 's a good time to pause . i s i see questions on peoples ' faces , so why do n't phd a: oh professor f: let 's let 's let 's hear phd a: well the obvious one would be if if you envision this as a module within smartkom , where exactly would that sit ? that 's the d grad b: um so far i 've thought of it as sort of adding it onto the modeler knowledge module . phd a: ok , yeah . grad b: so this is one that already adds additional information to the grad d: hmm . phd a: makes perfect sense . yes . grad d: hmm , ah . grad b: but it could sit anywhere in the attention - recognition i mean basically this is what attention - recognition literally sort of can phd a: well it 's supposed to do . yeah grad d: mmm . professor f: that 's what it should do . phd a: yeah . professor f: right , phd a: yeah . professor f: yeah . grad d: huh . grad b: yeah . phd a: well f from my understanding of what the people at phillips were originally trying to do does n't seem to quite fit into smartkom currently so what they 're really doing right now is only selecting among the alternatives , the hypotheses that they 're given enriched by the domain knowledge and the um discourse modeler and so on . grad b: yeah . phd a: so if if this is additional information that could be merged in by them . grad b: yeah . phd a: and then it would be available to action planning and and others . grad b: yeah . the professor f: let 's let 's that w ok that was one question . is there other other things that cuz we wan na not pa - pass over any you know , questions or concerns that you have . phd a: well there 're there 're two levels of of giving an answer and i guess on both levels i do n't have any um further questions . grad d: mmm . mmm . phd a: uh the the two levels will be as far as i 'm concerned as uh standing here for the generation module grad d: mmm . phd a: and the other is is my understanding of what smartkom uh is supposed to be professor f: right . phd a: and i i think that fits in perfectly professor f: so well , let me let me s expand on that a little bit from the point of view of the generation . grad d: hmm . phd a: yeah . professor f: so the idea is that we 've actually got this all laid out an and we could show it to you ig um robert did n't bring it today but there 's a a belief - net which is there 's a first cut at a belief - net that that does n't it is n't fully uh instantiated , and in particular some of the the combination rules and ways of getting the the conditional probabilities are n't there . but we believe that we have laid out the fundamental decisions in this little space phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and the things that influence them . so one of the decisions is what we call this ave thing . do you want to um access , view or enter a thing . grad d: hmm . professor f: so that 's a a discrete decision . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: there are only three possibilities and the uh what one would like is for this uh , knowledge modeling module to add which of those it is and give it to the planner . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: but , uh th the current design suggests that if it seems to be an important decision and if the belief - net is equivocal so that it does n't say that one of these is much more probable than the other , then an option is to go back and ask for the information you want . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: alright ? now there are two ways one can go a imagine doing that . for the debugging we 'll probably just have a a drop - down menu and the while you 're debugging you will just ok . but for a full system , then one might very well formulate a query , phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: give it to the dialogue planner and say this , you know ar are you know you are you planning to enter ? or whatever it whatever that might be . so that 's under that model then , there would be a uh um a loop in which this thing would formulate a query , phd a: yes . professor f: presumably give it to you . that would get expressed and then hopefully you know , you 'd get an answer back . phd a: yep . professor f: and that would of course the answer would have to be parsed . grad d: mmm . yep . professor f: right and phd a: yes . professor f: ok so , th that uh , we probably wo n't do this early on , because the current focus is more on the decision making and stuff like that . phd a: yep . professor f: but while we 're on the subject i just wanted to give you a sort of head 's up that it could be that some months from now we said `` ok we 're now ready to try to close that loop `` in terms of querying about some of these decisions . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad d: hmm . phd a: yep . so my suggestion then is that you um look into the currently ongoing discussion about how the action plans are supposed to look like . and they 're currently um agreeing or or in the process of agreeing on an x m l - ification of um something like a state - transition network of how dialogues would proceed . and the these um transition networks uh will be what the action planner interprets in a sense . professor f: hmm . d did you know this robert ? grad b: uh michael is doing that , right ? phd a: well uh marcus lerkult is actually implementing that stuff and marcus and michael together are um leading the discussion there , yeah . grad b: ok . professor f: so we ha we have to get in on that . phd a: yep . grad b: mm - hmm . grad d: mmm . professor f: because um partly those are like x - schemas . phd a: definitely . professor f: the transition diagrams . grad b: hmm . professor f: and it may be that that um we should early on make sure that they have the flexibility that we need . grad b: hmm . but they uh have i understood this right ? they they govern more or less the the dialogue behavior or the action phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: it 's not really what you do with the content of the dialogue but it 's so , i mean there is this this this nice interf grad d: uh , no , it 's it 's also a quantrant uh uh grad b: i is it professor f: so there 's ac so there th the word `` action `` , ok , is is what 's ambiguous here . grad d: i think . hmm . phd a: yes . professor f: so , um one thing is there 's an actual planner that tells the person in the tourist domain now , phd a: ok . professor f: per tells the person how to go , `` first go here , grad d: mm - hmm . professor f: first go there uh , you know , take a bus `` , whatever it is . so that 's that form of planning , and action , and a route planner and gis , all sort of stuff . uh but i think that is n't what you mean . phd a: no . no , in smartkom terminology that 's um called a function that 's modeled by a function modeler . and it 's th that 's completely um encapsulated from th the dialogue system . that 's simply a functionality that you give data as in a query and then you get back from that mmm , a functioning model um which might be a planner or a vcr or whatever . um some result and that 's then then used . professor f: well , ok , so that 's what i thought . so action he action here means dia uh speech ac uh you know dialogue act . phd a: yeah , yeah . yeah , in that in that sense grad b: mmm . phd a: yes , dialogue act , professor f: yeah . phd a: yeah . professor f: um , i think tha i think it 's not going to i think that 's not going to be good enough . i i don what uh what i meant by that . so i think the idea of having a , you know , transition diagram for the grammar of conversations is a good idea . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: ok ? and i think that we do hav definitely have to get in on it and find out ok . but i think that um when so , when you get to the tourist domain it 's not just an information retrieval system . phd a: mm - hmm . clearly . yes . professor f: right ? so this i this is where i think this people are gon na have to think this through a bit more carefully . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: so , if it 's only like in in the in the film and t v thing , ok , you can do this . and you just get information and give it to people . but what happens when you actually get them moving and so forth and so on phd a: yep . professor f: uh , y y your i d i think the notion of this as a self contained uh module you know th the functional module that that interacts with with where the tourism g stuff is going { comment } probably is too restrictive . phd a: yep . professor f: now i dunno how much people have thought ahead to the tourist domain in this phd a: probably not enough , i mean an another uh more basic point there is that the current um tasks and therefore th the concepts in this ac what 's called the action plan and what 's really the dialogue manager . professor f: yeah phd a: um is based on slots that have to be filled and the um kind of values in these slots would be fixed things like the a time or a movie title or something like this professor f: mm - hmm . right . phd a: whereas in the a um tourist domain it might be an entire route . set - based , or even very complex structured information in these slots professor f: indeed . right . phd a: and i 'm not sure if if complex slots of that type are really um being taken into consideration . professor f: ok . phd a: so that 's that 's really something we professor f: could you could you put a message into the right place to see if we can at least ask that question ? phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: yep . phd a: i mean nothing 's being completely settled there grad b: rea yep phd a: so this is really an ongoing discussion grad b: mm - hmm phd a: and that 's grad b: yeah and um it might actually ok ah also because um again in in deep map we have faced and implemented those problems once already phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: maybe we can even shuffle some know how from there to to markus and michael . phd a: yes . grad d: mmm . phd a: yep . grad b: and um mmm you do n't know ok th i 'll i 'll talk to michael it 's what i do anyway . who how far is the uh the the m - three - l specification for for the la natural language input gone on the the uh i have n't seen anything for the uh tourist path domain . grad d: yeah , it 's it 's not defined yet . grad b: and um you are probably also involved in that , grad d: um yeah . grad b: right ? uh together with the usual gang , um petra and jan grad d: mmm . yeah , there 's a meeting next next week i think grad b: ok because that 's those are the i think the the true key issues is how does the whatever comes out of the language input pipeline look like and then what the action planner does with it and how that is uh specified . i did n't think of the internal working of the uh the action planner and the language uh the function model as sort of relevant . because what what they take is sort of this this fixed representation of a of an intention . phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: and that can be as detailed or as crude as you want it to be . but um the internal workings of of the whether you know there 're dialogue action planners that work with belief - nets that are action planners that work with you know state automata . so that should n't really matter too much . i mean it does matter because it does have to keep track of you we are on part six of r a route that consists of eight steps and so forth phd a: right . professor f: yeah , th there there i think there are a lot of reasons why it matters . ok , so that uh , for example , the i it 's the action planner is going to take some spec and s make some suggestions about what the user should do . what the user says after that is going to be very much caught up with what the action planner told it . phd a: yes . professor f: if the if the parser and the language end does n't know what the person 's been told ok th it 's you 're making your life much more difficult than it has to be . grad b: yeah . professor f: right ? so if someone says the best t to uh go there is by taxi , let 's say . now the planner comes out and says you wan na get there fast , take a taxi . ok . and the language end does n't know that . ok , there 's all sorts of dialogues that wo n't make any sense which would be just fine . phd a: hmm grad b: yeah . professor f: uh phd a: that would b but that i think that that uh point has been realized and it 's it 's not really um been defined yet but there 's gon na be some kind of feedback and input from uh the action planner into all the analysis modules , telling them what to expect and what the current state of the discourse is . grad d: mmm . phd a: beyond what 's currently being implemented which is just word lists . professor f: yeah , but this is not the st this is not just the state of the discourse . grad b: mm - hmm . phd a: of of special interest . professor f: this is actually the state of the plan . that 's why phd a: yes , yes , mm - hmm yeah . grad b: mm - hmm . professor f: ok so it z and s uh , it 's great if people are already taking that into account . but one would have t have to see see the details . phd a: the specifics are n't really there yet . yes . so , there 's work to do there . professor f: yeah . so anyway , robert , that 's why i was thinking that grad b: mm - hmm . professor f: um i think you 're gon na need we talked about this several times that that the the input end is gon na need a fair amount of feedback from the planning end . phd a: hmm professor f: in in one of these things which are are much more continuous than the just the dialogue over movies and stuff . phd a: yeah . grad d: mmm . phd a: and even on on a more basic level the the action planner actually needs to be able to have um an expressive power that can deal with these structures . and not just um say um um the dialogue um will consist of ten possible states and th these states really are fixed in in a certain sense . professor f: hmm ? phd a: you have to professor f: would there be any chance of getting the terminology changed so that the dialogue planner was called a `` dialogue planner `` ? because there 's this other thing the o there 's this other thing in in the tourist domain which is gon na be a route planner phd a: that 'd be nice . professor f: or it 's really gon na be an action planner . and { comment } i it phd a: it oughta be called a a dialogue manager . cuz that 's what everybody else calls it . professor f: i would think , grad d: mmm . professor f: yeah . phd a: yeah . professor f: huh ? so , s so what would happen if we sent a note saying `` gee we 've talked about this and could n't we change this uh th the whole word ? `` i have no idea how complicated these things are . grad b: probably close to impossible . phd a: depends on who you talk to how . we 'll see . i 'll go check , cause i completely agree . yeah , grad d: mmm . phd a: and i think this is just for historical reasons within uh , the preparation phase of the project and not because somebody actually believes it ought to be action planner . so if there is resistance against changing it , that 's just because `` oh , we do n't want to change things . `` that that not deep reason professor f: ok , anyway . i if if that c in persists then we 're gon na need another term . for the thing that actually does the planning of the uh routes and whatever we are doing for the tourist . grad b: that 's external services . professor f: yeah , but that 's not g eh tha that ha has all the wrong connotations . it 's it sounds like it 's you know stand alone . it does n't interact , it does n't that 's why i 'm saying . i think you ca n't it 's fine for looking up when t you know when the show 's on tv . you go to th but i i i i think it 's really really wrong headed for something that you that has a lot of state , it 's gon na interact co in a complicated way with the uh understanding parts . grad b: yeah . yeah i think just the the spatial planner and the route planner i showed you once the interac action between them among them in the deep map system professor f: right . grad b: so a printout of the communication between those two fills up i do n't know how many pages phd a: hmm grad b: and that 's just part of how do i get to one place . it 's really insane . and uh but um so this is um definitely a good point to get uh michael into the discussion . or to enter his discussion , actually . phd a: yeah , marcus . grad b: that 's the way around . markus phd a: wh - where 's ? grad b: is he new in the in the ? phd a: yeah , he 's he started um i think january . grad d: yeah . phd a: and he 's gon na be responsible for the implementation of this action planner . dialogue manager . grad b: is he gon na continue with the old uh thing ? phd a: no , no he 's completely gon na rewrite everything . in java . grad b: ok . phd a: ok so that 's interesting . grad b: yes i was just that 's my next question phd a: hmm grad b: whether we 're we 're gon na stick to prolog or not . phd a: no . no , that 's gon na be phased out . professor f: yeah . grad b: ok but i do think the the function modeling concept has a certain makes sense in a in a certain light phd a: yeah . grad b: because the action planner should not be or the dialogue manager in that case should not um w have to worry about whether it 's interfacing with um something that does route planning in this way or that way phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: i i totally agree . grad b: huh , professor f: sure . grad b: it j professor f: yeah i i agree . there is there 's a logic to dialogue which which is is separable . i yeah . grad b: and it cant sort of formulate its what it wants in a in a rather a abstract uh way , you know f `` find me a good route for this . `` professor f: mm - hmm . grad b: it does n't really have to worry ab how route planner a or how route planner b actually wants it . so this is seemed like a good idea . in the beginning . professor f: it 's tricky . it 's tricky because one could well imagine i think it will turn out to be the case that uh , this thing we 're talking about , th the extended n uh knowledge modeler will fill in some parameters about what the person wants . one could well imagine that the next thing that 's trying to fill out the detailed uh , route planning , let 's say , will also have questions that it would like to ask the user . you could well imagine you get to a point where it 's got a a choice to make and it just does n't know something . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and so y you would like it t also be able to uh formulate a query . and to run that back through uh . the dialogue manager and to the output module and back around . grad b: hmm professor f: and a i a a good design would would allow that to happen . grad b: a lot of , yeah grad d: mmm . professor f: if if you know if if you ca n't make it happen then you you do your best . phd a: yeah but that does n't necessarily contradict um an architecture where there really is a pers a def well - defined interface . and and professor f: i totally agree . but but what it nee but th what the point is the in that case the dialogue manager is sort of event driven . so the dialogue manager may think it 's in a dialogue state of one sort , phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and this one of these planning modules comes along and says `` hey , right now we need to ask a question `` . so that forces the dialogue manager to change state . phd a: yes professor f: ok . phd a: sure , professor f: it could be y phd a: ye yeah i i think that 's that 's the um concept that people have , professor f: yeah , yeah it it phd a: yep . professor f: ok . phd a: and and the the underlying idea of course is that there is something like kernel modules with kernel functionality that you can plug uh certain applications like tourist information or um the home scenario with uh controlling a vcr and so on . and then extend it to an arbitrary number of applications eventually . so would n't that 's an additional reason to have this well - defined interface and keep these things like uh tourist information external . professor f: oh , yeah , yeah . phd a: and then call it external services . grad b: hmm . phd a: but of course the the more complex grad b: yeah , there is another philosophical issue that i think you know you can evade phd a: yep . grad b: but , at at least it makes sense to me that sooner or later uh a service is gon na come and describe itself to you . and that 's sort of what srini is working on in in in the daml uh project where um you you find a gis about that gives you information on berkeley , phd a: yeah . grad b: and it 's it 's gon na be there and tell you what it can do and how it wants to do things . and so you can actually interface to such a system without ever having met it before and the function modeler and a self - description of the um external service haggle it out phd a: hmm . grad b: and you can use the same language core , understanding core to interface with planner - a , planner - b , planner - c and so forth . phd a: hmm . grad d: mmm . grad b: which is , you know , uh uh utopian completely utopian at the moment , but slowly , you know , getting into the realm of the uh contingent . phd a: hmm . grad b: but we are facing of course much more um realistic problems . and language input for example , is of course uh crucial you know also when you do the sort of deep understanding analysis that we envision . um then of course , the uh um , you know what is it poverty of the stimulus , yet the m uh the less we get of that the better . and um so we we 're thinking , for example how much syntactic analysis actually happens already in the parser . and whether one could interface to that potentially grad d: hmm . yeah , are there currently is uh no syntactic analysis but in the next release there will be some . grad b: hmm . grad d: unless professor f: how 's it grad d: and it 's um uh you can access this professor f: s so uh y we we looked at the e current pattern matching thing . grad d: hmm . professor f: and as you say it 's just a surface pattern matcher . uh , so what are what are the plans roughly ? grad d: um it 's to to integrate and syntactic analysis . and um add some more features like segmentation . so then an utter more than one utterance is there um there 's often uh pause between it and a segmentation occurs . um professor f: so , the um so the idea is to uh have a pa y y a particular grad d: yeah professor f: do you have a particular parser in mind ? is it uh partic d i mean have you thought through ? is it an hpsg parser ? is it a whatever ? grad d: no no it 's uh i think it 's it 's totally complicated for it 's just one one person professor f: ok . grad d: and so i have to keep the professor f: oh , you have to do it . you have to do it , grad d: yeah , professor f: yeah . grad d: ah and so things must be simpler professor f: i see , grad d: but uh , miel syntactic analysis with um finite state transducers . professor f: so but the people at d f yeah . people at dfki have written a fair number of parsers . other you know , people over the years . uh have written various parsers at dfki . none of them are suitable ? i i i d i 'm asking . i do n't know . grad d: yeah , uh the problem is th that it has to be very fast because um if you want to for more than one path anywhere professor f: ok . grad d: what 's in the latches from the speech recognizer professor f: mm - hmm . grad d: so it 's speed is crucial . uh and they are not fast enough . professor f: mm - hmm . grad d: and they also have to be very robust . cuz of um speech recognition errors and professor f: ok . so , um so there was a chunk parser in verbmobil , that was one of the uh branchers . you know they d th i c there were these various uh , competing uh syntax modules . and i know one of them was a chunk parser and i do n't remember who did that . grad b: a alan ? grad d: i think it 's that might , at tuebingen i thought . professor f: yeah i d i do n't remember . grad d: was do you know something about that ? phd a: tubingen was at least involved in putting the chunks together grad d: in tub - at phd a: i ca n't quite recall whether they actually produced the chunks in the first place . grad d: oh professor f: uh . i see . yeah , that 's right . phd a: or wh grad d: oh from from stuttgart , professor f: there w that 's right . they w they had there were this was done with a two phase thing , where { comment } the chunk parser itself was pretty stupid grad d: yeah , also professor f: and then there was a kind of trying to fit them together that h used more context . phd a: right . yeah professor f: right ? phd a: well you s and and especially you did some some um , l um was a learning - based approach which learned from a big corpus of of trees . grad d: mm - hmm . professor f: right . phd a: and yes the it the chunk parser was a finite - state machine that um mark light originally w worked on in while he was in tuebingen professor f: right . phd a: and then somebody else in tuebingen picked that up . so it was done in tuebingen , yeah . definitely . professor f: but is that the kind of thing y it sounds like the kind of thing that you were thinking of . phd a: yeah i guess it 's similar . grad d: yeah . yeah that 's in this direction , yes professor f: what ? grad d: yeah , it 's in in this direction . grad b: the professor f: hmm . grad b: from michael strube , i 've heard very good stuff about the chunk parser that is done by forwiss , uh , which is in embassy doing the parsing . phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: so this is sort of came as a surprise to me that you know , embassy s { comment } is featuring a nice parser but it 's what i hear . one could also look at that and see whether there is some synergy possible . grad d: mm - hmm , yeah , it would be very interesting , mm - hmm . mmm , yeah . grad b: and they 're doing chunk parsing and it 's uh i i can give you the names of the people who do it there . but um . then there is of course more ways of parsing things . professor f: of course . but but uh given th the constraints , that you want it to be small and fast and so forth , my guess is you 're probably into some kind of chunk parsing . and uh i 'm not a big believer in this um statistical you know , cleaning up uh it that seems to me kind of a last resort if uh you ca n't do it any other way . uh but i dunno . grad d: hmm . professor f: it may i i may be that 's what you guys finally decide do . uh . and have you looked uh just again for context grad d: mm - hmm . professor f: there is this this one that they did at sri some years ago fastus ? grad d: um professor f: a grad d: yeah , i 've i 've looked at it but but it 's no not much uh information available . i found , professor f: ah ! grad d: but it 's also finite - state transducers , i thought . professor f: it is . yeah . i mean it 's it was pretty ambitious . grad d: and professor f: and of course it was english oriented , grad d: yeah , and and purely finite - state transducers are not so good for german since there 's um professor f: um w right . grad d: the word order is is uh not fixed professor f: yeah , i guess that 's the point is is all the morphology and stuff . and english is all th all word order . and it makes a lot more sense . grad d: yeah . professor f: and e yeah , ok . good point . so in in in german you 've got uh most of this done with grad d: mm - hmm . also it 's uh it 's um yes , uh the um choice between uh this processing and that processing and my template matcher . professor f: right . right . grad d: professor f: so what about um did y like morfix ? a a e y you 've got stemmers ? or is that something that grad d: um , yeah but it 's all in the in the lexicon . so it 's professor f: but did you have that ? grad d: yeah th the information is available . professor f: ok . i see . so , but grad d: so professor f: so y you just connect to the lexicon grad d: yeah professor f: and uh at least for german you have all all of the uh the stemming information . grad d: yeah , we can , oh yeah . we have knowledge bases from from verbmobil system we can use professor f: yep . grad d: and so . professor f: right . but it it it does n't look like i you 're using it . i did n't n see it being used in the current template uh parser . i i did n't see any uh of course we l actually only looked at the english . grad d: it um professor f: did we look at the german ? i do n't remember . grad d: yeah , but but it 's used for for stem forms . professor f: so w wha phd a: n well i think i think there 's some misunderstanding here professor f: i phd a: it 's morphix is not used on - line . grad d: oh , ok . phd a: s so the lexicon might be derived by morphix grad d: what ? phd a: but what what 's happening on - line is just um um a a retrieval from the lexicon which would give all the stemming information professor f: right . grad d: hmm . professor f: right . phd a: so it would be a full foreign lexicon . professor f: and that 's what you have . phd a: yep . grad d: yeah professor f: ok . grad b: we threw out all the forms . professor f: what uh i did n't reme grad b: we threw out all the forms professor f: huh ? grad b: because , you know , english , well professor f: oh ok , so it yeah , s s i thought i 'd grad d: mm - hmm . professor f: so in german then you actually do case matching and things like in the in the pattern matcher or not ? grad d: um not yet but it 's planned to do that . professor f: ok . cuz i r i did n't reme i did n't think i saw it . grad d: yeah professor f: have we looked at the german ? oh , i haven yeah that 's getting it from the lexicon is just fine . phd a: sure , right . grad d: oh yes . professor f: yeah , yeah , yeah . no problem with that . um yeah and here 's the case where the english and the german might really be significantly different . in terms of if you 're trying to build some fast parser and so forth and you really might wan na do it in a significantly different way . i do n't know . so you 've you guys have looked at this ? also ? in terms of you know , w if you 're doing this for english as well as german um do you think now that it would be this doing it similarly ? grad d: um yeah , it 's um i think it 's um yes , it 's it 's um possible to to do list processing . and maybe this is um more adequate for english and in german um set processing is used . professor f: set . grad d: maybe yeah . some extensions uh have to be made . for for a english version professor f: mmm . ok . interesting . not easy . grad b: well there 's m i 'm sure there 's gon na be more discussion on that after your talk . grad d: mm - hmm , grad b: we 're just gon na foreshadow what we saw that grad d: yeah . professor f: right . right . grad b: and um professor f: now actually , um are you guys free at five ? or do you have to go somewhere at five o ' clock tonight ? w in ten minutes ? grad d: ah phd a: uh uh i think we 're expect grad d: mmm . no . oder there was an talk ? phd a: yeah , there there 's the um practice talk . grad d: uh mmm , yeah . professor f: great . so you 're going to that . phd a: yeah , that that 's what we were planning to do . professor f: that 's good , because that will uh tell you a fair amount about the form of semantic construction grammar that we 're using . phd a: yeah . mm - hmm . professor f: so so i th i think that probably as good an introduction as you 'll get . grad d: ah . professor f: uh to the form of of uh conceptual grammar that that w we have in mind for this . grad d: mmm , ah . professor f: it wo n't talk particularly about how that relates to what uh robert was saying at the beginning . but let me give you a very short version of this . so we talked about the fact that there 're going to be a certain number of decisions that you want the knowledge modeler to make , that will be then fed to the function module , that does uh , route planning . it 's called the `` route planner `` or something . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: so there are these decisions . and then one half of this we talked about at little bit is how if you had the right information , if you knew something about what was said and about th the something about was the agent a tourist or a native or a business person or uh young or old , whatever . that information , and also about the uh , what we 're calling `` the entity `` , is it a castle , is it a bank ? is it a s town square , is it a statue ? whatever . so all that kind of information could be combined into decision networks and give you decisions . but the other half of the problem is how would you get that kind of information from the parsed input ? so , um so what you might try to do is just build more templates , saying uh we 're trying to build a templ you know build a template that w uh somehow would capture the fact that he wants to take a picture . grad d: mmm . professor f: ok ? and and we could you could do this . and it 's a small enough domain that probably you , you know grad d: mmm . professor f: ok . you could do this . but uh from our point of view this is also a research project and there are a couple of people not here for various reasons who are doing doctoral dissertations on this , phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and the idea that we 're really after is a very deep semantics based on cognitive linguistics and the notion that there are a relatively small number of primitive conceptual schemas that characterize a lot of activity . so a typical one in this formulation is a container . so this is a static thing . and the notion is that all sorts of physical situations are characterized in terms of containers . going in and out the portals and con grad d: mmm . professor f: ok . but also , importantly for lakoff and these guys is all sorts of metaphorical things are also characterized this way . you get in trouble and you know et cetera grad d: mmm . professor f: and so s so , what we 're really trying to do is to map from the discourse to the conceptual semantics level . and from there to the appropriate decisions . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: so another one of these primitive , what are called `` image schemas `` , is uh goal seeking . so this a notion of a source , path , goal , trajector , possibly obstacles . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and the idea is this is another conceptual primitive . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and that all sorts of things , particularly in the tourist domain , can be represented in terms of uh source , path and goal . so the idea would be could we build an analyser that would take an utterance and say `` aha ! th this utterance is talking about an attempt to reach a goal . the goal is this , the pers the , uh traveller is that , uh the sor w where we are at now is is this , they 've mentioned possible obstacles , et cetera . `` so th the and this is an again attempt to get very wide coverage . so if you can do this , then the notion would be that across a very large range of domains , you could use this deep conceptual basis as the interface . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor f: and then , uh the processing of that , both on the input end , recognizing that certain words in a language talk about containers or goals , et cetera , and on the output end , given this kind of information , you can then uh make decisions about what actions to take . provides , they claim , a very powerful , general notion of deep semantics . so that 's what we 're really doing . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and nancy is going to her talk is going to be not about using this in applications , but about modeling how children might learn this kind of uh deep semantic grammar . phd a: mm - hmm . yep , yep . and how do you envision um the the um this deep semantic to be worked with . would it be highly ambiguous if and then there would be another module that takes that um highly underspecified deep semantic construction and map it onto the current context to find out what the person really was talking about in that context . or or a professor f: well that 's that 's that 's where the belief - net comes in . so th the idea is , let 's take this business about going to the powder - tower . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: so part of what you 'll get out of this will be the fact tha w if it works right , ok , that this is an agent that wants to go to this place and that 's their goal phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and there will be additional situational information . phd a: oh , ok . professor f: uh , ok , phd a: th professor f: part of it comes from the ontology . the tower is this kind of object . phd a: mm - hmm . yeah , ok . professor f: part of it comes from the user model . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and the idea of the belief - net is it combines the information from the dialogue which comes across in this general way , phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: you know this is a this is a goal seeking behavior , along with specific information from the ontology about the kinds of objects involved phd a: yeah ok , yeah , yep yep yep yep professor f: and about the situation about `` is it raining ? `` i do n't know . whatever it is . and so that 's the belief - net that we 've laid out . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and so th the coupling to the situation comes in this model from , at th at th at the belief - net , combining evidence from the dialogue with the ontology with the situation . phd a: yeah . grad d: hmm . professor f: but nancy is n't gon na talk about that , phd a: yeah , oh yeah , i see , professor f: just about the um phd a: yeah yeah , really . grad b: first steps . professor f: right . the the construction grammar . grad b: and she 's gon na start in a minute . professor f: in a minute . grad d: ah , ok . professor f: ok . phd g: is it i in , then , your place , in five five - a ? phd a: alright .

the group discussed plans and concerns regarding the architecture of smartkom , its proposed modules , and the types of interactions expected to take place between modules . the meeting was largely focused on smartkom 's decision making capacity and how to adapt this functionality to the tourist information domain . the group set a date for assessing smartkom plans .

summarize what was said on smartkom architecture </s> grad c: hmm . testing channel two . grad e: two , two . grad c: two . grad e: two . oh . grad d: hello ? grad b: hmm ? yeah thank you . ok well , so ralf and tilman are here . professor f: ok . great . great . grad b: made it safely . professor f: so the what w we h have been doing i they would like us all to read these digits . but we do n't all read them but a couple people read them . phd a: ok . professor f: uh , wan na give them all with german accents today or ? grad b: sure . professor f: ok . grad b: ok and the way you do it is you just read the numbers not as uh each single , so just like i do it . phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: ok . first you read the transcript number . turn . grad d: ok , uh what 's professor f: ok . let 's be done with this . phd a: ok . professor f: ok . this is ami , who and this is tilman and ralf . phd a: hi . uh - huh . nice to meet you . grad d: hi . professor f: hi . ok . so we 're gon na try to finish by five so people who want to can go hear nancy chang 's talk , uh downstairs . phd a: hmm . professor f: and you guys are g giving talks on tomorrow and wednesday lunch times , phd a: yes . grad d: mmm . professor f: right ? that 's great . ok so , do y do you know what we 're gon na do ? grad b: i thought two things uh we 'll introduce ourselves and what we do . and um we already talked with andreas , thilo and david and some lines of code were already written today and almost tested and just gon na say we have um again the recognizer to parser thing where we 're working on and that should be no problem and then that can be sort of developed uh as needed when we get enter the tourism domain . em we have talked this morning with the with tilman about the generator . phd a: s grad b: and um there one of our diligent workers has to sort of volunteer to look over tilman 's shoulder while he is changing the grammars to english phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: because w we have we face two ways . either we do a syllable concatenating um grammar for the english generation which is sort of starting from scratch and doing it the easy way , or we simply adopt the ah um more in - depth um style that is implemented in the german system and um are then able not only to produce strings but also the syntactic parse uh not parse not the syntactic tree that is underneath in the syntactic structure which is the way we decided we were gon na go because a , it 's easier in the beginning phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: and um it does require some some knowledge of of those grammars and and and some ling linguistic background . but um it should n't be a problem for anyone . professor f: ok so that sounds good . johno , are you gon na have some time t to do that uh w with these guys ? grad e: sure . professor f: cuz y you 're the grammar maven . grad e: ok . professor f: i mean it makes sense , grad e: yeah . professor f: does n't it ? yeah good . ok . so , i think that 's probably the the right way to do that . and an yeah , so i i actually wan na f to find out about it too , but i may not have time to get in . grad b: the the ultimate goal is that before they leave we we can run through the entire system input through output on at least one or two sample things . and um and by virtue of doing that then in this case johno will have acquired the knowledge of how to extend it . ad infinitum . when needed , if needed , when wanted and so forth . professor f: ok that sounds great . grad b: and um also um ralf has hooked up with david and you 're gon na continue either all through tonight or tomorrow on whatever to get the er parser interface working . grad d: mmm . grad b: they are thinning out and thickening out lattices and doing this kind of stuff to see what works best . grad d: mmm , yep . professor f: great . so , you guys enjoy your weekend ? phd a: yes , very much so . grad d: yeah , very much professor f: ok , before before you got put to work ? grad d: yeah professor f: great . ok , so that 's sort of one branch is to get us caught up on what 's going on . also of course it would be really nice to know what the plans are , in addition to what 's sort of already in code . phd a: yes . professor f: and we can d i dunno w w was there uh a time when we were set up to do that ? it probably will work better if we do it later in the week , after we actually understand uh better what 's going on . phd a: yes . grad d: hmm . phd a: yeah . professor f: so when do you guys leave ? phd a: um we 're here through sunday , grad d: oh phd a: so all through friday would be fine . professor f: oh , ok , so ok , so so anyt we 'll find a time later in the week to uh get together and talk about your understanding of what smartkom plans are . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and how we can change them . phd a: yes . sure . professor f: uh , grad b: should we already set a date for that ? might be beneficial while we 're all here . professor f: ok ? um what what does not work for me is thursday afternoon . i can do earlier in the day on thursday , or um most of the time on friday , not all . grad b: thursday morning sounds fine ? professor f: wha - but , johno , phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: what are your constraints ? grad e: um thursday afternoon does n't work for me , but grad b: neither does thursday morning , no ? grad e: uh thursday morning should be fine . phd a: ok . professor f: eleven ? eleven on thursday ? grad e: i was just thinking i w i will have leavened by eleven . professor f: right . right . this is then out of deference to our non - morning people . phd a: mm - hmm . ok . so at eleven ? grad d: hmm . phd a: thursday around eleven ? ok . professor f: yeah . and actually we can invite um andreas as well . grad b: uh he will be in washington , though . professor f: oh that 's true . he 's off off on his trip already . grad b: but um david is here and he 's actually knows everything about the smartkom recognizer . professor f: thilo . ok well yeah maybe we 'll see if david could make it . that would be good . grad b: ok so facing to to what we 've sort of been doing here um well for one thing we 're also using this room to collect data . phd a: yeah obviously . grad b: um um not this type of data , phd a: oh , ok . grad b: no not meeting data but sort of sort ah our version of a wizard experiment such not like the ones in munich but pretty close to it . phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: the major difference to the munich ones is that we do it via the telephone phd a: ok . grad b: even though all the recording is done here and so it 's a sort of a computer call system that gives you tourist information phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: tells you how to get places . and it breaks halfway through the experiment and a human operator comes on . and part of that is sort of trying to find out whether people change their linguistic verbal behavior when first thinking they speak to a machine and then to a human . phd a: yeah . grad b: and we 're setting it up so that we can we hope to implant certain intentions in people . for example um we have first looked at a simple sentence that `` how do i get to the powder - tower ? `` ok so you have the castle of heidelberg phd a: ok . grad b: and there is a tower and it 's called powder - tower . phd a: oh , ok . yeah . grad b: and um so what will you parse out of that sentence ? probably something that we specified in m - three - l , that is @ @ { comment } `` action go to whatever domain , object whatever powder - tower `` . grad d: mmm . grad b: and maybe some model will tell us , some gps module , in the mobile scenario where the person is at the moment . and um we 've sort of gone through that once before in the deep mail project and we noticed that first of all what are i should 've brought some slides , but what our so here 's the tower . think of this as a two - dimensional representation of the tower . and our system led people here , to a point where they were facing a wall in front of the tower . there is no entrance there , but it just happens to be the closest point of the road network to the geometric center because that 's how the algorithm works . so we took out that part of the road network as a hack and then it found actually the way to the entrance . which was now the closest point of the road network to phd a: yeah . grad b: ok , geometric center . but what we actually observed in heidelberg is that most people when they want to go there they actually do n't want to enter , because it 's not really interesting . they wan na go to a completely different point where they can look at it and take a picture . phd a: oh , ok . grad d: hmm . phd a: yeah . grad b: and so what uh uh a s you s let 's say a simple parse from a s from an utterance wo n't really give us is what the person actually wants . does he wan na go there to see it ? does he wan na go there now ? later ? how does the person wan na go there ? is that person more likely to want to walk there ? walk a scenic route ? and so forth . there are all kinds of decisions that we have identified in terms of getting to places and in terms of finding information about things . and we are constructing and then we 've identified more or less the extra - linguistic parameters that may f play a role . information related to the user and information related to the situation . and we also want to look closely on the linguistic information that what we can get from the utterance . that 's part of why we implant these intentions in the data collection to see whether people actually phrase things differently whether they want to enter in order to buy something or whether they just wan na go there to look at it . and um so the idea is to construct uh um suitable interfaces and a belief - net for a module that actually tries to guess what the underlying intention was . and then enrich or augment the m - three - l structures with what it thought what more it sort of got out of that utterance . so if it can make a good suggestion , `` hey ! `` you know , `` that person does n't wan na enter . that person just wants to take a picture , `` cuz he just bought film , or `` that person wants to enter because he discussed the admission fee before `` . or `` that person wants to enter because he wants to buy something and that you usually do inside of buildings `` and so forth . these ah these types of uh these bits of additional information are going to be embedded into the m - three - l structure in an sort of subfield that we have reserved . and if the action planner does something with it , great . if not you know , then that 's also something um that we ca n't really at least we { comment } want to offer the extra information . we do n't really um we 're not too worried . phd a: mm - hmm . grad d: hmm . grad b: i mean t s ultimately if you have if you can offer that information , somebody 's gon na s do something with it sooner or later . that 's sort of part of our belief . grad e: what was he saying ? grad b: um , for example , right now i know the gis from email is not able to calculate these viewpoints . so that 's a functionality that does n't exist yet to do that dynamically , phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: but if we can offer it that distinction , maybe somebody will go ahead and implement it . surely nobody 's gon na go ahead and implement it if it 's never gon na be used , so . what have i forgotten about ? oh yeah , how we do it , professor f: well th uh grad b: yeah that 's the professor f: no no . it 's a good time to pause . i s i see questions on peoples ' faces , so why do n't phd a: oh professor f: let 's let 's let 's hear phd a: well the obvious one would be if if you envision this as a module within smartkom , where exactly would that sit ? that 's the d grad b: um so far i 've thought of it as sort of adding it onto the modeler knowledge module . phd a: ok , yeah . grad b: so this is one that already adds additional information to the grad d: hmm . phd a: makes perfect sense . yes . grad d: hmm , ah . grad b: but it could sit anywhere in the attention - recognition i mean basically this is what attention - recognition literally sort of can phd a: well it 's supposed to do . yeah grad d: mmm . professor f: that 's what it should do . phd a: yeah . professor f: right , phd a: yeah . professor f: yeah . grad d: huh . grad b: yeah . phd a: well f from my understanding of what the people at phillips were originally trying to do does n't seem to quite fit into smartkom currently so what they 're really doing right now is only selecting among the alternatives , the hypotheses that they 're given enriched by the domain knowledge and the um discourse modeler and so on . grad b: yeah . phd a: so if if this is additional information that could be merged in by them . grad b: yeah . phd a: and then it would be available to action planning and and others . grad b: yeah . the professor f: let 's let 's that w ok that was one question . is there other other things that cuz we wan na not pa - pass over any you know , questions or concerns that you have . phd a: well there 're there 're two levels of of giving an answer and i guess on both levels i do n't have any um further questions . grad d: mmm . mmm . phd a: uh the the two levels will be as far as i 'm concerned as uh standing here for the generation module grad d: mmm . phd a: and the other is is my understanding of what smartkom uh is supposed to be professor f: right . phd a: and i i think that fits in perfectly professor f: so well , let me let me s expand on that a little bit from the point of view of the generation . grad d: hmm . phd a: yeah . professor f: so the idea is that we 've actually got this all laid out an and we could show it to you ig um robert did n't bring it today but there 's a a belief - net which is there 's a first cut at a belief - net that that does n't it is n't fully uh instantiated , and in particular some of the the combination rules and ways of getting the the conditional probabilities are n't there . but we believe that we have laid out the fundamental decisions in this little space phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and the things that influence them . so one of the decisions is what we call this ave thing . do you want to um access , view or enter a thing . grad d: hmm . professor f: so that 's a a discrete decision . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: there are only three possibilities and the uh what one would like is for this uh , knowledge modeling module to add which of those it is and give it to the planner . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: but , uh th the current design suggests that if it seems to be an important decision and if the belief - net is equivocal so that it does n't say that one of these is much more probable than the other , then an option is to go back and ask for the information you want . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: alright ? now there are two ways one can go a imagine doing that . for the debugging we 'll probably just have a a drop - down menu and the while you 're debugging you will just ok . but for a full system , then one might very well formulate a query , phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: give it to the dialogue planner and say this , you know ar are you know you are you planning to enter ? or whatever it whatever that might be . so that 's under that model then , there would be a uh um a loop in which this thing would formulate a query , phd a: yes . professor f: presumably give it to you . that would get expressed and then hopefully you know , you 'd get an answer back . phd a: yep . professor f: and that would of course the answer would have to be parsed . grad d: mmm . yep . professor f: right and phd a: yes . professor f: ok so , th that uh , we probably wo n't do this early on , because the current focus is more on the decision making and stuff like that . phd a: yep . professor f: but while we 're on the subject i just wanted to give you a sort of head 's up that it could be that some months from now we said `` ok we 're now ready to try to close that loop `` in terms of querying about some of these decisions . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad d: hmm . phd a: yep . so my suggestion then is that you um look into the currently ongoing discussion about how the action plans are supposed to look like . and they 're currently um agreeing or or in the process of agreeing on an x m l - ification of um something like a state - transition network of how dialogues would proceed . and the these um transition networks uh will be what the action planner interprets in a sense . professor f: hmm . d did you know this robert ? grad b: uh michael is doing that , right ? phd a: well uh marcus lerkult is actually implementing that stuff and marcus and michael together are um leading the discussion there , yeah . grad b: ok . professor f: so we ha we have to get in on that . phd a: yep . grad b: mm - hmm . grad d: mmm . professor f: because um partly those are like x - schemas . phd a: definitely . professor f: the transition diagrams . grad b: hmm . professor f: and it may be that that um we should early on make sure that they have the flexibility that we need . grad b: hmm . but they uh have i understood this right ? they they govern more or less the the dialogue behavior or the action phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: it 's not really what you do with the content of the dialogue but it 's so , i mean there is this this this nice interf grad d: uh , no , it 's it 's also a quantrant uh uh grad b: i is it professor f: so there 's ac so there th the word `` action `` , ok , is is what 's ambiguous here . grad d: i think . hmm . phd a: yes . professor f: so , um one thing is there 's an actual planner that tells the person in the tourist domain now , phd a: ok . professor f: per tells the person how to go , `` first go here , grad d: mm - hmm . professor f: first go there uh , you know , take a bus `` , whatever it is . so that 's that form of planning , and action , and a route planner and gis , all sort of stuff . uh but i think that is n't what you mean . phd a: no . no , in smartkom terminology that 's um called a function that 's modeled by a function modeler . and it 's th that 's completely um encapsulated from th the dialogue system . that 's simply a functionality that you give data as in a query and then you get back from that mmm , a functioning model um which might be a planner or a vcr or whatever . um some result and that 's then then used . professor f: well , ok , so that 's what i thought . so action he action here means dia uh speech ac uh you know dialogue act . phd a: yeah , yeah . yeah , in that in that sense grad b: mmm . phd a: yes , dialogue act , professor f: yeah . phd a: yeah . professor f: um , i think tha i think it 's not going to i think that 's not going to be good enough . i i don what uh what i meant by that . so i think the idea of having a , you know , transition diagram for the grammar of conversations is a good idea . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: ok ? and i think that we do hav definitely have to get in on it and find out ok . but i think that um when so , when you get to the tourist domain it 's not just an information retrieval system . phd a: mm - hmm . clearly . yes . professor f: right ? so this i this is where i think this people are gon na have to think this through a bit more carefully . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: so , if it 's only like in in the in the film and t v thing , ok , you can do this . and you just get information and give it to people . but what happens when you actually get them moving and so forth and so on phd a: yep . professor f: uh , y y your i d i think the notion of this as a self contained uh module you know th the functional module that that interacts with with where the tourism g stuff is going { comment } probably is too restrictive . phd a: yep . professor f: now i dunno how much people have thought ahead to the tourist domain in this phd a: probably not enough , i mean an another uh more basic point there is that the current um tasks and therefore th the concepts in this ac what 's called the action plan and what 's really the dialogue manager . professor f: yeah phd a: um is based on slots that have to be filled and the um kind of values in these slots would be fixed things like the a time or a movie title or something like this professor f: mm - hmm . right . phd a: whereas in the a um tourist domain it might be an entire route . set - based , or even very complex structured information in these slots professor f: indeed . right . phd a: and i 'm not sure if if complex slots of that type are really um being taken into consideration . professor f: ok . phd a: so that 's that 's really something we professor f: could you could you put a message into the right place to see if we can at least ask that question ? phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: yep . phd a: i mean nothing 's being completely settled there grad b: rea yep phd a: so this is really an ongoing discussion grad b: mm - hmm phd a: and that 's grad b: yeah and um it might actually ok ah also because um again in in deep map we have faced and implemented those problems once already phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: maybe we can even shuffle some know how from there to to markus and michael . phd a: yes . grad d: mmm . phd a: yep . grad b: and um mmm you do n't know ok th i 'll i 'll talk to michael it 's what i do anyway . who how far is the uh the the m - three - l specification for for the la natural language input gone on the the uh i have n't seen anything for the uh tourist path domain . grad d: yeah , it 's it 's not defined yet . grad b: and um you are probably also involved in that , grad d: um yeah . grad b: right ? uh together with the usual gang , um petra and jan grad d: mmm . yeah , there 's a meeting next next week i think grad b: ok because that 's those are the i think the the true key issues is how does the whatever comes out of the language input pipeline look like and then what the action planner does with it and how that is uh specified . i did n't think of the internal working of the uh the action planner and the language uh the function model as sort of relevant . because what what they take is sort of this this fixed representation of a of an intention . phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: and that can be as detailed or as crude as you want it to be . but um the internal workings of of the whether you know there 're dialogue action planners that work with belief - nets that are action planners that work with you know state automata . so that should n't really matter too much . i mean it does matter because it does have to keep track of you we are on part six of r a route that consists of eight steps and so forth phd a: right . professor f: yeah , th there there i think there are a lot of reasons why it matters . ok , so that uh , for example , the i it 's the action planner is going to take some spec and s make some suggestions about what the user should do . what the user says after that is going to be very much caught up with what the action planner told it . phd a: yes . professor f: if the if the parser and the language end does n't know what the person 's been told ok th it 's you 're making your life much more difficult than it has to be . grad b: yeah . professor f: right ? so if someone says the best t to uh go there is by taxi , let 's say . now the planner comes out and says you wan na get there fast , take a taxi . ok . and the language end does n't know that . ok , there 's all sorts of dialogues that wo n't make any sense which would be just fine . phd a: hmm grad b: yeah . professor f: uh phd a: that would b but that i think that that uh point has been realized and it 's it 's not really um been defined yet but there 's gon na be some kind of feedback and input from uh the action planner into all the analysis modules , telling them what to expect and what the current state of the discourse is . grad d: mmm . phd a: beyond what 's currently being implemented which is just word lists . professor f: yeah , but this is not the st this is not just the state of the discourse . grad b: mm - hmm . phd a: of of special interest . professor f: this is actually the state of the plan . that 's why phd a: yes , yes , mm - hmm yeah . grad b: mm - hmm . professor f: ok so it z and s uh , it 's great if people are already taking that into account . but one would have t have to see see the details . phd a: the specifics are n't really there yet . yes . so , there 's work to do there . professor f: yeah . so anyway , robert , that 's why i was thinking that grad b: mm - hmm . professor f: um i think you 're gon na need we talked about this several times that that the the input end is gon na need a fair amount of feedback from the planning end . phd a: hmm professor f: in in one of these things which are are much more continuous than the just the dialogue over movies and stuff . phd a: yeah . grad d: mmm . phd a: and even on on a more basic level the the action planner actually needs to be able to have um an expressive power that can deal with these structures . and not just um say um um the dialogue um will consist of ten possible states and th these states really are fixed in in a certain sense . professor f: hmm ? phd a: you have to professor f: would there be any chance of getting the terminology changed so that the dialogue planner was called a `` dialogue planner `` ? because there 's this other thing the o there 's this other thing in in the tourist domain which is gon na be a route planner phd a: that 'd be nice . professor f: or it 's really gon na be an action planner . and { comment } i it phd a: it oughta be called a a dialogue manager . cuz that 's what everybody else calls it . professor f: i would think , grad d: mmm . professor f: yeah . phd a: yeah . professor f: huh ? so , s so what would happen if we sent a note saying `` gee we 've talked about this and could n't we change this uh th the whole word ? `` i have no idea how complicated these things are . grad b: probably close to impossible . phd a: depends on who you talk to how . we 'll see . i 'll go check , cause i completely agree . yeah , grad d: mmm . phd a: and i think this is just for historical reasons within uh , the preparation phase of the project and not because somebody actually believes it ought to be action planner . so if there is resistance against changing it , that 's just because `` oh , we do n't want to change things . `` that that not deep reason professor f: ok , anyway . i if if that c in persists then we 're gon na need another term . for the thing that actually does the planning of the uh routes and whatever we are doing for the tourist . grad b: that 's external services . professor f: yeah , but that 's not g eh tha that ha has all the wrong connotations . it 's it sounds like it 's you know stand alone . it does n't interact , it does n't that 's why i 'm saying . i think you ca n't it 's fine for looking up when t you know when the show 's on tv . you go to th but i i i i think it 's really really wrong headed for something that you that has a lot of state , it 's gon na interact co in a complicated way with the uh understanding parts . grad b: yeah . yeah i think just the the spatial planner and the route planner i showed you once the interac action between them among them in the deep map system professor f: right . grad b: so a printout of the communication between those two fills up i do n't know how many pages phd a: hmm grad b: and that 's just part of how do i get to one place . it 's really insane . and uh but um so this is um definitely a good point to get uh michael into the discussion . or to enter his discussion , actually . phd a: yeah , marcus . grad b: that 's the way around . markus phd a: wh - where 's ? grad b: is he new in the in the ? phd a: yeah , he 's he started um i think january . grad d: yeah . phd a: and he 's gon na be responsible for the implementation of this action planner . dialogue manager . grad b: is he gon na continue with the old uh thing ? phd a: no , no he 's completely gon na rewrite everything . in java . grad b: ok . phd a: ok so that 's interesting . grad b: yes i was just that 's my next question phd a: hmm grad b: whether we 're we 're gon na stick to prolog or not . phd a: no . no , that 's gon na be phased out . professor f: yeah . grad b: ok but i do think the the function modeling concept has a certain makes sense in a in a certain light phd a: yeah . grad b: because the action planner should not be or the dialogue manager in that case should not um w have to worry about whether it 's interfacing with um something that does route planning in this way or that way phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: i i totally agree . grad b: huh , professor f: sure . grad b: it j professor f: yeah i i agree . there is there 's a logic to dialogue which which is is separable . i yeah . grad b: and it cant sort of formulate its what it wants in a in a rather a abstract uh way , you know f `` find me a good route for this . `` professor f: mm - hmm . grad b: it does n't really have to worry ab how route planner a or how route planner b actually wants it . so this is seemed like a good idea . in the beginning . professor f: it 's tricky . it 's tricky because one could well imagine i think it will turn out to be the case that uh , this thing we 're talking about , th the extended n uh knowledge modeler will fill in some parameters about what the person wants . one could well imagine that the next thing that 's trying to fill out the detailed uh , route planning , let 's say , will also have questions that it would like to ask the user . you could well imagine you get to a point where it 's got a a choice to make and it just does n't know something . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and so y you would like it t also be able to uh formulate a query . and to run that back through uh . the dialogue manager and to the output module and back around . grad b: hmm professor f: and a i a a good design would would allow that to happen . grad b: a lot of , yeah grad d: mmm . professor f: if if you know if if you ca n't make it happen then you you do your best . phd a: yeah but that does n't necessarily contradict um an architecture where there really is a pers a def well - defined interface . and and professor f: i totally agree . but but what it nee but th what the point is the in that case the dialogue manager is sort of event driven . so the dialogue manager may think it 's in a dialogue state of one sort , phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and this one of these planning modules comes along and says `` hey , right now we need to ask a question `` . so that forces the dialogue manager to change state . phd a: yes professor f: ok . phd a: sure , professor f: it could be y phd a: ye yeah i i think that 's that 's the um concept that people have , professor f: yeah , yeah it it phd a: yep . professor f: ok . phd a: and and the the underlying idea of course is that there is something like kernel modules with kernel functionality that you can plug uh certain applications like tourist information or um the home scenario with uh controlling a vcr and so on . and then extend it to an arbitrary number of applications eventually . so would n't that 's an additional reason to have this well - defined interface and keep these things like uh tourist information external . professor f: oh , yeah , yeah . phd a: and then call it external services . grad b: hmm . phd a: but of course the the more complex grad b: yeah , there is another philosophical issue that i think you know you can evade phd a: yep . grad b: but , at at least it makes sense to me that sooner or later uh a service is gon na come and describe itself to you . and that 's sort of what srini is working on in in in the daml uh project where um you you find a gis about that gives you information on berkeley , phd a: yeah . grad b: and it 's it 's gon na be there and tell you what it can do and how it wants to do things . and so you can actually interface to such a system without ever having met it before and the function modeler and a self - description of the um external service haggle it out phd a: hmm . grad b: and you can use the same language core , understanding core to interface with planner - a , planner - b , planner - c and so forth . phd a: hmm . grad d: mmm . grad b: which is , you know , uh uh utopian completely utopian at the moment , but slowly , you know , getting into the realm of the uh contingent . phd a: hmm . grad b: but we are facing of course much more um realistic problems . and language input for example , is of course uh crucial you know also when you do the sort of deep understanding analysis that we envision . um then of course , the uh um , you know what is it poverty of the stimulus , yet the m uh the less we get of that the better . and um so we we 're thinking , for example how much syntactic analysis actually happens already in the parser . and whether one could interface to that potentially grad d: hmm . yeah , are there currently is uh no syntactic analysis but in the next release there will be some . grad b: hmm . grad d: unless professor f: how 's it grad d: and it 's um uh you can access this professor f: s so uh y we we looked at the e current pattern matching thing . grad d: hmm . professor f: and as you say it 's just a surface pattern matcher . uh , so what are what are the plans roughly ? grad d: um it 's to to integrate and syntactic analysis . and um add some more features like segmentation . so then an utter more than one utterance is there um there 's often uh pause between it and a segmentation occurs . um professor f: so , the um so the idea is to uh have a pa y y a particular grad d: yeah professor f: do you have a particular parser in mind ? is it uh partic d i mean have you thought through ? is it an hpsg parser ? is it a whatever ? grad d: no no it 's uh i think it 's it 's totally complicated for it 's just one one person professor f: ok . grad d: and so i have to keep the professor f: oh , you have to do it . you have to do it , grad d: yeah , professor f: yeah . grad d: ah and so things must be simpler professor f: i see , grad d: but uh , miel syntactic analysis with um finite state transducers . professor f: so but the people at d f yeah . people at dfki have written a fair number of parsers . other you know , people over the years . uh have written various parsers at dfki . none of them are suitable ? i i i d i 'm asking . i do n't know . grad d: yeah , uh the problem is th that it has to be very fast because um if you want to for more than one path anywhere professor f: ok . grad d: what 's in the latches from the speech recognizer professor f: mm - hmm . grad d: so it 's speed is crucial . uh and they are not fast enough . professor f: mm - hmm . grad d: and they also have to be very robust . cuz of um speech recognition errors and professor f: ok . so , um so there was a chunk parser in verbmobil , that was one of the uh branchers . you know they d th i c there were these various uh , competing uh syntax modules . and i know one of them was a chunk parser and i do n't remember who did that . grad b: a alan ? grad d: i think it 's that might , at tuebingen i thought . professor f: yeah i d i do n't remember . grad d: was do you know something about that ? phd a: tubingen was at least involved in putting the chunks together grad d: in tub - at phd a: i ca n't quite recall whether they actually produced the chunks in the first place . grad d: oh professor f: uh . i see . yeah , that 's right . phd a: or wh grad d: oh from from stuttgart , professor f: there w that 's right . they w they had there were this was done with a two phase thing , where { comment } the chunk parser itself was pretty stupid grad d: yeah , also professor f: and then there was a kind of trying to fit them together that h used more context . phd a: right . yeah professor f: right ? phd a: well you s and and especially you did some some um , l um was a learning - based approach which learned from a big corpus of of trees . grad d: mm - hmm . professor f: right . phd a: and yes the it the chunk parser was a finite - state machine that um mark light originally w worked on in while he was in tuebingen professor f: right . phd a: and then somebody else in tuebingen picked that up . so it was done in tuebingen , yeah . definitely . professor f: but is that the kind of thing y it sounds like the kind of thing that you were thinking of . phd a: yeah i guess it 's similar . grad d: yeah . yeah that 's in this direction , yes professor f: what ? grad d: yeah , it 's in in this direction . grad b: the professor f: hmm . grad b: from michael strube , i 've heard very good stuff about the chunk parser that is done by forwiss , uh , which is in embassy doing the parsing . phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: so this is sort of came as a surprise to me that you know , embassy s { comment } is featuring a nice parser but it 's what i hear . one could also look at that and see whether there is some synergy possible . grad d: mm - hmm , yeah , it would be very interesting , mm - hmm . mmm , yeah . grad b: and they 're doing chunk parsing and it 's uh i i can give you the names of the people who do it there . but um . then there is of course more ways of parsing things . professor f: of course . but but uh given th the constraints , that you want it to be small and fast and so forth , my guess is you 're probably into some kind of chunk parsing . and uh i 'm not a big believer in this um statistical you know , cleaning up uh it that seems to me kind of a last resort if uh you ca n't do it any other way . uh but i dunno . grad d: hmm . professor f: it may i i may be that 's what you guys finally decide do . uh . and have you looked uh just again for context grad d: mm - hmm . professor f: there is this this one that they did at sri some years ago fastus ? grad d: um professor f: a grad d: yeah , i 've i 've looked at it but but it 's no not much uh information available . i found , professor f: ah ! grad d: but it 's also finite - state transducers , i thought . professor f: it is . yeah . i mean it 's it was pretty ambitious . grad d: and professor f: and of course it was english oriented , grad d: yeah , and and purely finite - state transducers are not so good for german since there 's um professor f: um w right . grad d: the word order is is uh not fixed professor f: yeah , i guess that 's the point is is all the morphology and stuff . and english is all th all word order . and it makes a lot more sense . grad d: yeah . professor f: and e yeah , ok . good point . so in in in german you 've got uh most of this done with grad d: mm - hmm . also it 's uh it 's um yes , uh the um choice between uh this processing and that processing and my template matcher . professor f: right . right . grad d: professor f: so what about um did y like morfix ? a a e y you 've got stemmers ? or is that something that grad d: um , yeah but it 's all in the in the lexicon . so it 's professor f: but did you have that ? grad d: yeah th the information is available . professor f: ok . i see . so , but grad d: so professor f: so y you just connect to the lexicon grad d: yeah professor f: and uh at least for german you have all all of the uh the stemming information . grad d: yeah , we can , oh yeah . we have knowledge bases from from verbmobil system we can use professor f: yep . grad d: and so . professor f: right . but it it it does n't look like i you 're using it . i did n't n see it being used in the current template uh parser . i i did n't see any uh of course we l actually only looked at the english . grad d: it um professor f: did we look at the german ? i do n't remember . grad d: yeah , but but it 's used for for stem forms . professor f: so w wha phd a: n well i think i think there 's some misunderstanding here professor f: i phd a: it 's morphix is not used on - line . grad d: oh , ok . phd a: s so the lexicon might be derived by morphix grad d: what ? phd a: but what what 's happening on - line is just um um a a retrieval from the lexicon which would give all the stemming information professor f: right . grad d: hmm . professor f: right . phd a: so it would be a full foreign lexicon . professor f: and that 's what you have . phd a: yep . grad d: yeah professor f: ok . grad b: we threw out all the forms . professor f: what uh i did n't reme grad b: we threw out all the forms professor f: huh ? grad b: because , you know , english , well professor f: oh ok , so it yeah , s s i thought i 'd grad d: mm - hmm . professor f: so in german then you actually do case matching and things like in the in the pattern matcher or not ? grad d: um not yet but it 's planned to do that . professor f: ok . cuz i r i did n't reme i did n't think i saw it . grad d: yeah professor f: have we looked at the german ? oh , i haven yeah that 's getting it from the lexicon is just fine . phd a: sure , right . grad d: oh yes . professor f: yeah , yeah , yeah . no problem with that . um yeah and here 's the case where the english and the german might really be significantly different . in terms of if you 're trying to build some fast parser and so forth and you really might wan na do it in a significantly different way . i do n't know . so you 've you guys have looked at this ? also ? in terms of you know , w if you 're doing this for english as well as german um do you think now that it would be this doing it similarly ? grad d: um yeah , it 's um i think it 's um yes , it 's it 's um possible to to do list processing . and maybe this is um more adequate for english and in german um set processing is used . professor f: set . grad d: maybe yeah . some extensions uh have to be made . for for a english version professor f: mmm . ok . interesting . not easy . grad b: well there 's m i 'm sure there 's gon na be more discussion on that after your talk . grad d: mm - hmm , grad b: we 're just gon na foreshadow what we saw that grad d: yeah . professor f: right . right . grad b: and um professor f: now actually , um are you guys free at five ? or do you have to go somewhere at five o ' clock tonight ? w in ten minutes ? grad d: ah phd a: uh uh i think we 're expect grad d: mmm . no . oder there was an talk ? phd a: yeah , there there 's the um practice talk . grad d: uh mmm , yeah . professor f: great . so you 're going to that . phd a: yeah , that that 's what we were planning to do . professor f: that 's good , because that will uh tell you a fair amount about the form of semantic construction grammar that we 're using . phd a: yeah . mm - hmm . professor f: so so i th i think that probably as good an introduction as you 'll get . grad d: ah . professor f: uh to the form of of uh conceptual grammar that that w we have in mind for this . grad d: mmm , ah . professor f: it wo n't talk particularly about how that relates to what uh robert was saying at the beginning . but let me give you a very short version of this . so we talked about the fact that there 're going to be a certain number of decisions that you want the knowledge modeler to make , that will be then fed to the function module , that does uh , route planning . it 's called the `` route planner `` or something . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: so there are these decisions . and then one half of this we talked about at little bit is how if you had the right information , if you knew something about what was said and about th the something about was the agent a tourist or a native or a business person or uh young or old , whatever . that information , and also about the uh , what we 're calling `` the entity `` , is it a castle , is it a bank ? is it a s town square , is it a statue ? whatever . so all that kind of information could be combined into decision networks and give you decisions . but the other half of the problem is how would you get that kind of information from the parsed input ? so , um so what you might try to do is just build more templates , saying uh we 're trying to build a templ you know build a template that w uh somehow would capture the fact that he wants to take a picture . grad d: mmm . professor f: ok ? and and we could you could do this . and it 's a small enough domain that probably you , you know grad d: mmm . professor f: ok . you could do this . but uh from our point of view this is also a research project and there are a couple of people not here for various reasons who are doing doctoral dissertations on this , phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and the idea that we 're really after is a very deep semantics based on cognitive linguistics and the notion that there are a relatively small number of primitive conceptual schemas that characterize a lot of activity . so a typical one in this formulation is a container . so this is a static thing . and the notion is that all sorts of physical situations are characterized in terms of containers . going in and out the portals and con grad d: mmm . professor f: ok . but also , importantly for lakoff and these guys is all sorts of metaphorical things are also characterized this way . you get in trouble and you know et cetera grad d: mmm . professor f: and so s so , what we 're really trying to do is to map from the discourse to the conceptual semantics level . and from there to the appropriate decisions . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: so another one of these primitive , what are called `` image schemas `` , is uh goal seeking . so this a notion of a source , path , goal , trajector , possibly obstacles . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and the idea is this is another conceptual primitive . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and that all sorts of things , particularly in the tourist domain , can be represented in terms of uh source , path and goal . so the idea would be could we build an analyser that would take an utterance and say `` aha ! th this utterance is talking about an attempt to reach a goal . the goal is this , the pers the , uh traveller is that , uh the sor w where we are at now is is this , they 've mentioned possible obstacles , et cetera . `` so th the and this is an again attempt to get very wide coverage . so if you can do this , then the notion would be that across a very large range of domains , you could use this deep conceptual basis as the interface . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor f: and then , uh the processing of that , both on the input end , recognizing that certain words in a language talk about containers or goals , et cetera , and on the output end , given this kind of information , you can then uh make decisions about what actions to take . provides , they claim , a very powerful , general notion of deep semantics . so that 's what we 're really doing . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and nancy is going to her talk is going to be not about using this in applications , but about modeling how children might learn this kind of uh deep semantic grammar . phd a: mm - hmm . yep , yep . and how do you envision um the the um this deep semantic to be worked with . would it be highly ambiguous if and then there would be another module that takes that um highly underspecified deep semantic construction and map it onto the current context to find out what the person really was talking about in that context . or or a professor f: well that 's that 's that 's where the belief - net comes in . so th the idea is , let 's take this business about going to the powder - tower . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: so part of what you 'll get out of this will be the fact tha w if it works right , ok , that this is an agent that wants to go to this place and that 's their goal phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and there will be additional situational information . phd a: oh , ok . professor f: uh , ok , phd a: th professor f: part of it comes from the ontology . the tower is this kind of object . phd a: mm - hmm . yeah , ok . professor f: part of it comes from the user model . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and the idea of the belief - net is it combines the information from the dialogue which comes across in this general way , phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: you know this is a this is a goal seeking behavior , along with specific information from the ontology about the kinds of objects involved phd a: yeah ok , yeah , yep yep yep yep professor f: and about the situation about `` is it raining ? `` i do n't know . whatever it is . and so that 's the belief - net that we 've laid out . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and so th the coupling to the situation comes in this model from , at th at th at the belief - net , combining evidence from the dialogue with the ontology with the situation . phd a: yeah . grad d: hmm . professor f: but nancy is n't gon na talk about that , phd a: yeah , oh yeah , i see , professor f: just about the um phd a: yeah yeah , really . grad b: first steps . professor f: right . the the construction grammar . grad b: and she 's gon na start in a minute . professor f: in a minute . grad d: ah , ok . professor f: ok . phd g: is it i in , then , your place , in five five - a ? phd a: alright .

it was decided that smartkom 's action plans should be represented in xml as a state transition network . it was proposed that the term 'dialogue planner ' should replace 'dialogue manager ' . prolog will be phased out completely and replaced by java code . the dialogue manager must be capable of changing states , i.e . go from being event driven to answering a question from a planning module .

what were the modules for the smartkom . </s> grad c: hmm . testing channel two . grad e: two , two . grad c: two . grad e: two . oh . grad d: hello ? grad b: hmm ? yeah thank you . ok well , so ralf and tilman are here . professor f: ok . great . great . grad b: made it safely . professor f: so the what w we h have been doing i they would like us all to read these digits . but we do n't all read them but a couple people read them . phd a: ok . professor f: uh , wan na give them all with german accents today or ? grad b: sure . professor f: ok . grad b: ok and the way you do it is you just read the numbers not as uh each single , so just like i do it . phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: ok . first you read the transcript number . turn . grad d: ok , uh what 's professor f: ok . let 's be done with this . phd a: ok . professor f: ok . this is ami , who and this is tilman and ralf . phd a: hi . uh - huh . nice to meet you . grad d: hi . professor f: hi . ok . so we 're gon na try to finish by five so people who want to can go hear nancy chang 's talk , uh downstairs . phd a: hmm . professor f: and you guys are g giving talks on tomorrow and wednesday lunch times , phd a: yes . grad d: mmm . professor f: right ? that 's great . ok so , do y do you know what we 're gon na do ? grad b: i thought two things uh we 'll introduce ourselves and what we do . and um we already talked with andreas , thilo and david and some lines of code were already written today and almost tested and just gon na say we have um again the recognizer to parser thing where we 're working on and that should be no problem and then that can be sort of developed uh as needed when we get enter the tourism domain . em we have talked this morning with the with tilman about the generator . phd a: s grad b: and um there one of our diligent workers has to sort of volunteer to look over tilman 's shoulder while he is changing the grammars to english phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: because w we have we face two ways . either we do a syllable concatenating um grammar for the english generation which is sort of starting from scratch and doing it the easy way , or we simply adopt the ah um more in - depth um style that is implemented in the german system and um are then able not only to produce strings but also the syntactic parse uh not parse not the syntactic tree that is underneath in the syntactic structure which is the way we decided we were gon na go because a , it 's easier in the beginning phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: and um it does require some some knowledge of of those grammars and and and some ling linguistic background . but um it should n't be a problem for anyone . professor f: ok so that sounds good . johno , are you gon na have some time t to do that uh w with these guys ? grad e: sure . professor f: cuz y you 're the grammar maven . grad e: ok . professor f: i mean it makes sense , grad e: yeah . professor f: does n't it ? yeah good . ok . so , i think that 's probably the the right way to do that . and an yeah , so i i actually wan na f to find out about it too , but i may not have time to get in . grad b: the the ultimate goal is that before they leave we we can run through the entire system input through output on at least one or two sample things . and um and by virtue of doing that then in this case johno will have acquired the knowledge of how to extend it . ad infinitum . when needed , if needed , when wanted and so forth . professor f: ok that sounds great . grad b: and um also um ralf has hooked up with david and you 're gon na continue either all through tonight or tomorrow on whatever to get the er parser interface working . grad d: mmm . grad b: they are thinning out and thickening out lattices and doing this kind of stuff to see what works best . grad d: mmm , yep . professor f: great . so , you guys enjoy your weekend ? phd a: yes , very much so . grad d: yeah , very much professor f: ok , before before you got put to work ? grad d: yeah professor f: great . ok , so that 's sort of one branch is to get us caught up on what 's going on . also of course it would be really nice to know what the plans are , in addition to what 's sort of already in code . phd a: yes . professor f: and we can d i dunno w w was there uh a time when we were set up to do that ? it probably will work better if we do it later in the week , after we actually understand uh better what 's going on . phd a: yes . grad d: hmm . phd a: yeah . professor f: so when do you guys leave ? phd a: um we 're here through sunday , grad d: oh phd a: so all through friday would be fine . professor f: oh , ok , so ok , so so anyt we 'll find a time later in the week to uh get together and talk about your understanding of what smartkom plans are . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and how we can change them . phd a: yes . sure . professor f: uh , grad b: should we already set a date for that ? might be beneficial while we 're all here . professor f: ok ? um what what does not work for me is thursday afternoon . i can do earlier in the day on thursday , or um most of the time on friday , not all . grad b: thursday morning sounds fine ? professor f: wha - but , johno , phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: what are your constraints ? grad e: um thursday afternoon does n't work for me , but grad b: neither does thursday morning , no ? grad e: uh thursday morning should be fine . phd a: ok . professor f: eleven ? eleven on thursday ? grad e: i was just thinking i w i will have leavened by eleven . professor f: right . right . this is then out of deference to our non - morning people . phd a: mm - hmm . ok . so at eleven ? grad d: hmm . phd a: thursday around eleven ? ok . professor f: yeah . and actually we can invite um andreas as well . grad b: uh he will be in washington , though . professor f: oh that 's true . he 's off off on his trip already . grad b: but um david is here and he 's actually knows everything about the smartkom recognizer . professor f: thilo . ok well yeah maybe we 'll see if david could make it . that would be good . grad b: ok so facing to to what we 've sort of been doing here um well for one thing we 're also using this room to collect data . phd a: yeah obviously . grad b: um um not this type of data , phd a: oh , ok . grad b: no not meeting data but sort of sort ah our version of a wizard experiment such not like the ones in munich but pretty close to it . phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: the major difference to the munich ones is that we do it via the telephone phd a: ok . grad b: even though all the recording is done here and so it 's a sort of a computer call system that gives you tourist information phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: tells you how to get places . and it breaks halfway through the experiment and a human operator comes on . and part of that is sort of trying to find out whether people change their linguistic verbal behavior when first thinking they speak to a machine and then to a human . phd a: yeah . grad b: and we 're setting it up so that we can we hope to implant certain intentions in people . for example um we have first looked at a simple sentence that `` how do i get to the powder - tower ? `` ok so you have the castle of heidelberg phd a: ok . grad b: and there is a tower and it 's called powder - tower . phd a: oh , ok . yeah . grad b: and um so what will you parse out of that sentence ? probably something that we specified in m - three - l , that is @ @ { comment } `` action go to whatever domain , object whatever powder - tower `` . grad d: mmm . grad b: and maybe some model will tell us , some gps module , in the mobile scenario where the person is at the moment . and um we 've sort of gone through that once before in the deep mail project and we noticed that first of all what are i should 've brought some slides , but what our so here 's the tower . think of this as a two - dimensional representation of the tower . and our system led people here , to a point where they were facing a wall in front of the tower . there is no entrance there , but it just happens to be the closest point of the road network to the geometric center because that 's how the algorithm works . so we took out that part of the road network as a hack and then it found actually the way to the entrance . which was now the closest point of the road network to phd a: yeah . grad b: ok , geometric center . but what we actually observed in heidelberg is that most people when they want to go there they actually do n't want to enter , because it 's not really interesting . they wan na go to a completely different point where they can look at it and take a picture . phd a: oh , ok . grad d: hmm . phd a: yeah . grad b: and so what uh uh a s you s let 's say a simple parse from a s from an utterance wo n't really give us is what the person actually wants . does he wan na go there to see it ? does he wan na go there now ? later ? how does the person wan na go there ? is that person more likely to want to walk there ? walk a scenic route ? and so forth . there are all kinds of decisions that we have identified in terms of getting to places and in terms of finding information about things . and we are constructing and then we 've identified more or less the extra - linguistic parameters that may f play a role . information related to the user and information related to the situation . and we also want to look closely on the linguistic information that what we can get from the utterance . that 's part of why we implant these intentions in the data collection to see whether people actually phrase things differently whether they want to enter in order to buy something or whether they just wan na go there to look at it . and um so the idea is to construct uh um suitable interfaces and a belief - net for a module that actually tries to guess what the underlying intention was . and then enrich or augment the m - three - l structures with what it thought what more it sort of got out of that utterance . so if it can make a good suggestion , `` hey ! `` you know , `` that person does n't wan na enter . that person just wants to take a picture , `` cuz he just bought film , or `` that person wants to enter because he discussed the admission fee before `` . or `` that person wants to enter because he wants to buy something and that you usually do inside of buildings `` and so forth . these ah these types of uh these bits of additional information are going to be embedded into the m - three - l structure in an sort of subfield that we have reserved . and if the action planner does something with it , great . if not you know , then that 's also something um that we ca n't really at least we { comment } want to offer the extra information . we do n't really um we 're not too worried . phd a: mm - hmm . grad d: hmm . grad b: i mean t s ultimately if you have if you can offer that information , somebody 's gon na s do something with it sooner or later . that 's sort of part of our belief . grad e: what was he saying ? grad b: um , for example , right now i know the gis from email is not able to calculate these viewpoints . so that 's a functionality that does n't exist yet to do that dynamically , phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: but if we can offer it that distinction , maybe somebody will go ahead and implement it . surely nobody 's gon na go ahead and implement it if it 's never gon na be used , so . what have i forgotten about ? oh yeah , how we do it , professor f: well th uh grad b: yeah that 's the professor f: no no . it 's a good time to pause . i s i see questions on peoples ' faces , so why do n't phd a: oh professor f: let 's let 's let 's hear phd a: well the obvious one would be if if you envision this as a module within smartkom , where exactly would that sit ? that 's the d grad b: um so far i 've thought of it as sort of adding it onto the modeler knowledge module . phd a: ok , yeah . grad b: so this is one that already adds additional information to the grad d: hmm . phd a: makes perfect sense . yes . grad d: hmm , ah . grad b: but it could sit anywhere in the attention - recognition i mean basically this is what attention - recognition literally sort of can phd a: well it 's supposed to do . yeah grad d: mmm . professor f: that 's what it should do . phd a: yeah . professor f: right , phd a: yeah . professor f: yeah . grad d: huh . grad b: yeah . phd a: well f from my understanding of what the people at phillips were originally trying to do does n't seem to quite fit into smartkom currently so what they 're really doing right now is only selecting among the alternatives , the hypotheses that they 're given enriched by the domain knowledge and the um discourse modeler and so on . grad b: yeah . phd a: so if if this is additional information that could be merged in by them . grad b: yeah . phd a: and then it would be available to action planning and and others . grad b: yeah . the professor f: let 's let 's that w ok that was one question . is there other other things that cuz we wan na not pa - pass over any you know , questions or concerns that you have . phd a: well there 're there 're two levels of of giving an answer and i guess on both levels i do n't have any um further questions . grad d: mmm . mmm . phd a: uh the the two levels will be as far as i 'm concerned as uh standing here for the generation module grad d: mmm . phd a: and the other is is my understanding of what smartkom uh is supposed to be professor f: right . phd a: and i i think that fits in perfectly professor f: so well , let me let me s expand on that a little bit from the point of view of the generation . grad d: hmm . phd a: yeah . professor f: so the idea is that we 've actually got this all laid out an and we could show it to you ig um robert did n't bring it today but there 's a a belief - net which is there 's a first cut at a belief - net that that does n't it is n't fully uh instantiated , and in particular some of the the combination rules and ways of getting the the conditional probabilities are n't there . but we believe that we have laid out the fundamental decisions in this little space phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and the things that influence them . so one of the decisions is what we call this ave thing . do you want to um access , view or enter a thing . grad d: hmm . professor f: so that 's a a discrete decision . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: there are only three possibilities and the uh what one would like is for this uh , knowledge modeling module to add which of those it is and give it to the planner . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: but , uh th the current design suggests that if it seems to be an important decision and if the belief - net is equivocal so that it does n't say that one of these is much more probable than the other , then an option is to go back and ask for the information you want . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: alright ? now there are two ways one can go a imagine doing that . for the debugging we 'll probably just have a a drop - down menu and the while you 're debugging you will just ok . but for a full system , then one might very well formulate a query , phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: give it to the dialogue planner and say this , you know ar are you know you are you planning to enter ? or whatever it whatever that might be . so that 's under that model then , there would be a uh um a loop in which this thing would formulate a query , phd a: yes . professor f: presumably give it to you . that would get expressed and then hopefully you know , you 'd get an answer back . phd a: yep . professor f: and that would of course the answer would have to be parsed . grad d: mmm . yep . professor f: right and phd a: yes . professor f: ok so , th that uh , we probably wo n't do this early on , because the current focus is more on the decision making and stuff like that . phd a: yep . professor f: but while we 're on the subject i just wanted to give you a sort of head 's up that it could be that some months from now we said `` ok we 're now ready to try to close that loop `` in terms of querying about some of these decisions . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad d: hmm . phd a: yep . so my suggestion then is that you um look into the currently ongoing discussion about how the action plans are supposed to look like . and they 're currently um agreeing or or in the process of agreeing on an x m l - ification of um something like a state - transition network of how dialogues would proceed . and the these um transition networks uh will be what the action planner interprets in a sense . professor f: hmm . d did you know this robert ? grad b: uh michael is doing that , right ? phd a: well uh marcus lerkult is actually implementing that stuff and marcus and michael together are um leading the discussion there , yeah . grad b: ok . professor f: so we ha we have to get in on that . phd a: yep . grad b: mm - hmm . grad d: mmm . professor f: because um partly those are like x - schemas . phd a: definitely . professor f: the transition diagrams . grad b: hmm . professor f: and it may be that that um we should early on make sure that they have the flexibility that we need . grad b: hmm . but they uh have i understood this right ? they they govern more or less the the dialogue behavior or the action phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: it 's not really what you do with the content of the dialogue but it 's so , i mean there is this this this nice interf grad d: uh , no , it 's it 's also a quantrant uh uh grad b: i is it professor f: so there 's ac so there th the word `` action `` , ok , is is what 's ambiguous here . grad d: i think . hmm . phd a: yes . professor f: so , um one thing is there 's an actual planner that tells the person in the tourist domain now , phd a: ok . professor f: per tells the person how to go , `` first go here , grad d: mm - hmm . professor f: first go there uh , you know , take a bus `` , whatever it is . so that 's that form of planning , and action , and a route planner and gis , all sort of stuff . uh but i think that is n't what you mean . phd a: no . no , in smartkom terminology that 's um called a function that 's modeled by a function modeler . and it 's th that 's completely um encapsulated from th the dialogue system . that 's simply a functionality that you give data as in a query and then you get back from that mmm , a functioning model um which might be a planner or a vcr or whatever . um some result and that 's then then used . professor f: well , ok , so that 's what i thought . so action he action here means dia uh speech ac uh you know dialogue act . phd a: yeah , yeah . yeah , in that in that sense grad b: mmm . phd a: yes , dialogue act , professor f: yeah . phd a: yeah . professor f: um , i think tha i think it 's not going to i think that 's not going to be good enough . i i don what uh what i meant by that . so i think the idea of having a , you know , transition diagram for the grammar of conversations is a good idea . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: ok ? and i think that we do hav definitely have to get in on it and find out ok . but i think that um when so , when you get to the tourist domain it 's not just an information retrieval system . phd a: mm - hmm . clearly . yes . professor f: right ? so this i this is where i think this people are gon na have to think this through a bit more carefully . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: so , if it 's only like in in the in the film and t v thing , ok , you can do this . and you just get information and give it to people . but what happens when you actually get them moving and so forth and so on phd a: yep . professor f: uh , y y your i d i think the notion of this as a self contained uh module you know th the functional module that that interacts with with where the tourism g stuff is going { comment } probably is too restrictive . phd a: yep . professor f: now i dunno how much people have thought ahead to the tourist domain in this phd a: probably not enough , i mean an another uh more basic point there is that the current um tasks and therefore th the concepts in this ac what 's called the action plan and what 's really the dialogue manager . professor f: yeah phd a: um is based on slots that have to be filled and the um kind of values in these slots would be fixed things like the a time or a movie title or something like this professor f: mm - hmm . right . phd a: whereas in the a um tourist domain it might be an entire route . set - based , or even very complex structured information in these slots professor f: indeed . right . phd a: and i 'm not sure if if complex slots of that type are really um being taken into consideration . professor f: ok . phd a: so that 's that 's really something we professor f: could you could you put a message into the right place to see if we can at least ask that question ? phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: yep . phd a: i mean nothing 's being completely settled there grad b: rea yep phd a: so this is really an ongoing discussion grad b: mm - hmm phd a: and that 's grad b: yeah and um it might actually ok ah also because um again in in deep map we have faced and implemented those problems once already phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: maybe we can even shuffle some know how from there to to markus and michael . phd a: yes . grad d: mmm . phd a: yep . grad b: and um mmm you do n't know ok th i 'll i 'll talk to michael it 's what i do anyway . who how far is the uh the the m - three - l specification for for the la natural language input gone on the the uh i have n't seen anything for the uh tourist path domain . grad d: yeah , it 's it 's not defined yet . grad b: and um you are probably also involved in that , grad d: um yeah . grad b: right ? uh together with the usual gang , um petra and jan grad d: mmm . yeah , there 's a meeting next next week i think grad b: ok because that 's those are the i think the the true key issues is how does the whatever comes out of the language input pipeline look like and then what the action planner does with it and how that is uh specified . i did n't think of the internal working of the uh the action planner and the language uh the function model as sort of relevant . because what what they take is sort of this this fixed representation of a of an intention . phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: and that can be as detailed or as crude as you want it to be . but um the internal workings of of the whether you know there 're dialogue action planners that work with belief - nets that are action planners that work with you know state automata . so that should n't really matter too much . i mean it does matter because it does have to keep track of you we are on part six of r a route that consists of eight steps and so forth phd a: right . professor f: yeah , th there there i think there are a lot of reasons why it matters . ok , so that uh , for example , the i it 's the action planner is going to take some spec and s make some suggestions about what the user should do . what the user says after that is going to be very much caught up with what the action planner told it . phd a: yes . professor f: if the if the parser and the language end does n't know what the person 's been told ok th it 's you 're making your life much more difficult than it has to be . grad b: yeah . professor f: right ? so if someone says the best t to uh go there is by taxi , let 's say . now the planner comes out and says you wan na get there fast , take a taxi . ok . and the language end does n't know that . ok , there 's all sorts of dialogues that wo n't make any sense which would be just fine . phd a: hmm grad b: yeah . professor f: uh phd a: that would b but that i think that that uh point has been realized and it 's it 's not really um been defined yet but there 's gon na be some kind of feedback and input from uh the action planner into all the analysis modules , telling them what to expect and what the current state of the discourse is . grad d: mmm . phd a: beyond what 's currently being implemented which is just word lists . professor f: yeah , but this is not the st this is not just the state of the discourse . grad b: mm - hmm . phd a: of of special interest . professor f: this is actually the state of the plan . that 's why phd a: yes , yes , mm - hmm yeah . grad b: mm - hmm . professor f: ok so it z and s uh , it 's great if people are already taking that into account . but one would have t have to see see the details . phd a: the specifics are n't really there yet . yes . so , there 's work to do there . professor f: yeah . so anyway , robert , that 's why i was thinking that grad b: mm - hmm . professor f: um i think you 're gon na need we talked about this several times that that the the input end is gon na need a fair amount of feedback from the planning end . phd a: hmm professor f: in in one of these things which are are much more continuous than the just the dialogue over movies and stuff . phd a: yeah . grad d: mmm . phd a: and even on on a more basic level the the action planner actually needs to be able to have um an expressive power that can deal with these structures . and not just um say um um the dialogue um will consist of ten possible states and th these states really are fixed in in a certain sense . professor f: hmm ? phd a: you have to professor f: would there be any chance of getting the terminology changed so that the dialogue planner was called a `` dialogue planner `` ? because there 's this other thing the o there 's this other thing in in the tourist domain which is gon na be a route planner phd a: that 'd be nice . professor f: or it 's really gon na be an action planner . and { comment } i it phd a: it oughta be called a a dialogue manager . cuz that 's what everybody else calls it . professor f: i would think , grad d: mmm . professor f: yeah . phd a: yeah . professor f: huh ? so , s so what would happen if we sent a note saying `` gee we 've talked about this and could n't we change this uh th the whole word ? `` i have no idea how complicated these things are . grad b: probably close to impossible . phd a: depends on who you talk to how . we 'll see . i 'll go check , cause i completely agree . yeah , grad d: mmm . phd a: and i think this is just for historical reasons within uh , the preparation phase of the project and not because somebody actually believes it ought to be action planner . so if there is resistance against changing it , that 's just because `` oh , we do n't want to change things . `` that that not deep reason professor f: ok , anyway . i if if that c in persists then we 're gon na need another term . for the thing that actually does the planning of the uh routes and whatever we are doing for the tourist . grad b: that 's external services . professor f: yeah , but that 's not g eh tha that ha has all the wrong connotations . it 's it sounds like it 's you know stand alone . it does n't interact , it does n't that 's why i 'm saying . i think you ca n't it 's fine for looking up when t you know when the show 's on tv . you go to th but i i i i think it 's really really wrong headed for something that you that has a lot of state , it 's gon na interact co in a complicated way with the uh understanding parts . grad b: yeah . yeah i think just the the spatial planner and the route planner i showed you once the interac action between them among them in the deep map system professor f: right . grad b: so a printout of the communication between those two fills up i do n't know how many pages phd a: hmm grad b: and that 's just part of how do i get to one place . it 's really insane . and uh but um so this is um definitely a good point to get uh michael into the discussion . or to enter his discussion , actually . phd a: yeah , marcus . grad b: that 's the way around . markus phd a: wh - where 's ? grad b: is he new in the in the ? phd a: yeah , he 's he started um i think january . grad d: yeah . phd a: and he 's gon na be responsible for the implementation of this action planner . dialogue manager . grad b: is he gon na continue with the old uh thing ? phd a: no , no he 's completely gon na rewrite everything . in java . grad b: ok . phd a: ok so that 's interesting . grad b: yes i was just that 's my next question phd a: hmm grad b: whether we 're we 're gon na stick to prolog or not . phd a: no . no , that 's gon na be phased out . professor f: yeah . grad b: ok but i do think the the function modeling concept has a certain makes sense in a in a certain light phd a: yeah . grad b: because the action planner should not be or the dialogue manager in that case should not um w have to worry about whether it 's interfacing with um something that does route planning in this way or that way phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: i i totally agree . grad b: huh , professor f: sure . grad b: it j professor f: yeah i i agree . there is there 's a logic to dialogue which which is is separable . i yeah . grad b: and it cant sort of formulate its what it wants in a in a rather a abstract uh way , you know f `` find me a good route for this . `` professor f: mm - hmm . grad b: it does n't really have to worry ab how route planner a or how route planner b actually wants it . so this is seemed like a good idea . in the beginning . professor f: it 's tricky . it 's tricky because one could well imagine i think it will turn out to be the case that uh , this thing we 're talking about , th the extended n uh knowledge modeler will fill in some parameters about what the person wants . one could well imagine that the next thing that 's trying to fill out the detailed uh , route planning , let 's say , will also have questions that it would like to ask the user . you could well imagine you get to a point where it 's got a a choice to make and it just does n't know something . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and so y you would like it t also be able to uh formulate a query . and to run that back through uh . the dialogue manager and to the output module and back around . grad b: hmm professor f: and a i a a good design would would allow that to happen . grad b: a lot of , yeah grad d: mmm . professor f: if if you know if if you ca n't make it happen then you you do your best . phd a: yeah but that does n't necessarily contradict um an architecture where there really is a pers a def well - defined interface . and and professor f: i totally agree . but but what it nee but th what the point is the in that case the dialogue manager is sort of event driven . so the dialogue manager may think it 's in a dialogue state of one sort , phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and this one of these planning modules comes along and says `` hey , right now we need to ask a question `` . so that forces the dialogue manager to change state . phd a: yes professor f: ok . phd a: sure , professor f: it could be y phd a: ye yeah i i think that 's that 's the um concept that people have , professor f: yeah , yeah it it phd a: yep . professor f: ok . phd a: and and the the underlying idea of course is that there is something like kernel modules with kernel functionality that you can plug uh certain applications like tourist information or um the home scenario with uh controlling a vcr and so on . and then extend it to an arbitrary number of applications eventually . so would n't that 's an additional reason to have this well - defined interface and keep these things like uh tourist information external . professor f: oh , yeah , yeah . phd a: and then call it external services . grad b: hmm . phd a: but of course the the more complex grad b: yeah , there is another philosophical issue that i think you know you can evade phd a: yep . grad b: but , at at least it makes sense to me that sooner or later uh a service is gon na come and describe itself to you . and that 's sort of what srini is working on in in in the daml uh project where um you you find a gis about that gives you information on berkeley , phd a: yeah . grad b: and it 's it 's gon na be there and tell you what it can do and how it wants to do things . and so you can actually interface to such a system without ever having met it before and the function modeler and a self - description of the um external service haggle it out phd a: hmm . grad b: and you can use the same language core , understanding core to interface with planner - a , planner - b , planner - c and so forth . phd a: hmm . grad d: mmm . grad b: which is , you know , uh uh utopian completely utopian at the moment , but slowly , you know , getting into the realm of the uh contingent . phd a: hmm . grad b: but we are facing of course much more um realistic problems . and language input for example , is of course uh crucial you know also when you do the sort of deep understanding analysis that we envision . um then of course , the uh um , you know what is it poverty of the stimulus , yet the m uh the less we get of that the better . and um so we we 're thinking , for example how much syntactic analysis actually happens already in the parser . and whether one could interface to that potentially grad d: hmm . yeah , are there currently is uh no syntactic analysis but in the next release there will be some . grad b: hmm . grad d: unless professor f: how 's it grad d: and it 's um uh you can access this professor f: s so uh y we we looked at the e current pattern matching thing . grad d: hmm . professor f: and as you say it 's just a surface pattern matcher . uh , so what are what are the plans roughly ? grad d: um it 's to to integrate and syntactic analysis . and um add some more features like segmentation . so then an utter more than one utterance is there um there 's often uh pause between it and a segmentation occurs . um professor f: so , the um so the idea is to uh have a pa y y a particular grad d: yeah professor f: do you have a particular parser in mind ? is it uh partic d i mean have you thought through ? is it an hpsg parser ? is it a whatever ? grad d: no no it 's uh i think it 's it 's totally complicated for it 's just one one person professor f: ok . grad d: and so i have to keep the professor f: oh , you have to do it . you have to do it , grad d: yeah , professor f: yeah . grad d: ah and so things must be simpler professor f: i see , grad d: but uh , miel syntactic analysis with um finite state transducers . professor f: so but the people at d f yeah . people at dfki have written a fair number of parsers . other you know , people over the years . uh have written various parsers at dfki . none of them are suitable ? i i i d i 'm asking . i do n't know . grad d: yeah , uh the problem is th that it has to be very fast because um if you want to for more than one path anywhere professor f: ok . grad d: what 's in the latches from the speech recognizer professor f: mm - hmm . grad d: so it 's speed is crucial . uh and they are not fast enough . professor f: mm - hmm . grad d: and they also have to be very robust . cuz of um speech recognition errors and professor f: ok . so , um so there was a chunk parser in verbmobil , that was one of the uh branchers . you know they d th i c there were these various uh , competing uh syntax modules . and i know one of them was a chunk parser and i do n't remember who did that . grad b: a alan ? grad d: i think it 's that might , at tuebingen i thought . professor f: yeah i d i do n't remember . grad d: was do you know something about that ? phd a: tubingen was at least involved in putting the chunks together grad d: in tub - at phd a: i ca n't quite recall whether they actually produced the chunks in the first place . grad d: oh professor f: uh . i see . yeah , that 's right . phd a: or wh grad d: oh from from stuttgart , professor f: there w that 's right . they w they had there were this was done with a two phase thing , where { comment } the chunk parser itself was pretty stupid grad d: yeah , also professor f: and then there was a kind of trying to fit them together that h used more context . phd a: right . yeah professor f: right ? phd a: well you s and and especially you did some some um , l um was a learning - based approach which learned from a big corpus of of trees . grad d: mm - hmm . professor f: right . phd a: and yes the it the chunk parser was a finite - state machine that um mark light originally w worked on in while he was in tuebingen professor f: right . phd a: and then somebody else in tuebingen picked that up . so it was done in tuebingen , yeah . definitely . professor f: but is that the kind of thing y it sounds like the kind of thing that you were thinking of . phd a: yeah i guess it 's similar . grad d: yeah . yeah that 's in this direction , yes professor f: what ? grad d: yeah , it 's in in this direction . grad b: the professor f: hmm . grad b: from michael strube , i 've heard very good stuff about the chunk parser that is done by forwiss , uh , which is in embassy doing the parsing . phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: so this is sort of came as a surprise to me that you know , embassy s { comment } is featuring a nice parser but it 's what i hear . one could also look at that and see whether there is some synergy possible . grad d: mm - hmm , yeah , it would be very interesting , mm - hmm . mmm , yeah . grad b: and they 're doing chunk parsing and it 's uh i i can give you the names of the people who do it there . but um . then there is of course more ways of parsing things . professor f: of course . but but uh given th the constraints , that you want it to be small and fast and so forth , my guess is you 're probably into some kind of chunk parsing . and uh i 'm not a big believer in this um statistical you know , cleaning up uh it that seems to me kind of a last resort if uh you ca n't do it any other way . uh but i dunno . grad d: hmm . professor f: it may i i may be that 's what you guys finally decide do . uh . and have you looked uh just again for context grad d: mm - hmm . professor f: there is this this one that they did at sri some years ago fastus ? grad d: um professor f: a grad d: yeah , i 've i 've looked at it but but it 's no not much uh information available . i found , professor f: ah ! grad d: but it 's also finite - state transducers , i thought . professor f: it is . yeah . i mean it 's it was pretty ambitious . grad d: and professor f: and of course it was english oriented , grad d: yeah , and and purely finite - state transducers are not so good for german since there 's um professor f: um w right . grad d: the word order is is uh not fixed professor f: yeah , i guess that 's the point is is all the morphology and stuff . and english is all th all word order . and it makes a lot more sense . grad d: yeah . professor f: and e yeah , ok . good point . so in in in german you 've got uh most of this done with grad d: mm - hmm . also it 's uh it 's um yes , uh the um choice between uh this processing and that processing and my template matcher . professor f: right . right . grad d: professor f: so what about um did y like morfix ? a a e y you 've got stemmers ? or is that something that grad d: um , yeah but it 's all in the in the lexicon . so it 's professor f: but did you have that ? grad d: yeah th the information is available . professor f: ok . i see . so , but grad d: so professor f: so y you just connect to the lexicon grad d: yeah professor f: and uh at least for german you have all all of the uh the stemming information . grad d: yeah , we can , oh yeah . we have knowledge bases from from verbmobil system we can use professor f: yep . grad d: and so . professor f: right . but it it it does n't look like i you 're using it . i did n't n see it being used in the current template uh parser . i i did n't see any uh of course we l actually only looked at the english . grad d: it um professor f: did we look at the german ? i do n't remember . grad d: yeah , but but it 's used for for stem forms . professor f: so w wha phd a: n well i think i think there 's some misunderstanding here professor f: i phd a: it 's morphix is not used on - line . grad d: oh , ok . phd a: s so the lexicon might be derived by morphix grad d: what ? phd a: but what what 's happening on - line is just um um a a retrieval from the lexicon which would give all the stemming information professor f: right . grad d: hmm . professor f: right . phd a: so it would be a full foreign lexicon . professor f: and that 's what you have . phd a: yep . grad d: yeah professor f: ok . grad b: we threw out all the forms . professor f: what uh i did n't reme grad b: we threw out all the forms professor f: huh ? grad b: because , you know , english , well professor f: oh ok , so it yeah , s s i thought i 'd grad d: mm - hmm . professor f: so in german then you actually do case matching and things like in the in the pattern matcher or not ? grad d: um not yet but it 's planned to do that . professor f: ok . cuz i r i did n't reme i did n't think i saw it . grad d: yeah professor f: have we looked at the german ? oh , i haven yeah that 's getting it from the lexicon is just fine . phd a: sure , right . grad d: oh yes . professor f: yeah , yeah , yeah . no problem with that . um yeah and here 's the case where the english and the german might really be significantly different . in terms of if you 're trying to build some fast parser and so forth and you really might wan na do it in a significantly different way . i do n't know . so you 've you guys have looked at this ? also ? in terms of you know , w if you 're doing this for english as well as german um do you think now that it would be this doing it similarly ? grad d: um yeah , it 's um i think it 's um yes , it 's it 's um possible to to do list processing . and maybe this is um more adequate for english and in german um set processing is used . professor f: set . grad d: maybe yeah . some extensions uh have to be made . for for a english version professor f: mmm . ok . interesting . not easy . grad b: well there 's m i 'm sure there 's gon na be more discussion on that after your talk . grad d: mm - hmm , grad b: we 're just gon na foreshadow what we saw that grad d: yeah . professor f: right . right . grad b: and um professor f: now actually , um are you guys free at five ? or do you have to go somewhere at five o ' clock tonight ? w in ten minutes ? grad d: ah phd a: uh uh i think we 're expect grad d: mmm . no . oder there was an talk ? phd a: yeah , there there 's the um practice talk . grad d: uh mmm , yeah . professor f: great . so you 're going to that . phd a: yeah , that that 's what we were planning to do . professor f: that 's good , because that will uh tell you a fair amount about the form of semantic construction grammar that we 're using . phd a: yeah . mm - hmm . professor f: so so i th i think that probably as good an introduction as you 'll get . grad d: ah . professor f: uh to the form of of uh conceptual grammar that that w we have in mind for this . grad d: mmm , ah . professor f: it wo n't talk particularly about how that relates to what uh robert was saying at the beginning . but let me give you a very short version of this . so we talked about the fact that there 're going to be a certain number of decisions that you want the knowledge modeler to make , that will be then fed to the function module , that does uh , route planning . it 's called the `` route planner `` or something . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: so there are these decisions . and then one half of this we talked about at little bit is how if you had the right information , if you knew something about what was said and about th the something about was the agent a tourist or a native or a business person or uh young or old , whatever . that information , and also about the uh , what we 're calling `` the entity `` , is it a castle , is it a bank ? is it a s town square , is it a statue ? whatever . so all that kind of information could be combined into decision networks and give you decisions . but the other half of the problem is how would you get that kind of information from the parsed input ? so , um so what you might try to do is just build more templates , saying uh we 're trying to build a templ you know build a template that w uh somehow would capture the fact that he wants to take a picture . grad d: mmm . professor f: ok ? and and we could you could do this . and it 's a small enough domain that probably you , you know grad d: mmm . professor f: ok . you could do this . but uh from our point of view this is also a research project and there are a couple of people not here for various reasons who are doing doctoral dissertations on this , phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and the idea that we 're really after is a very deep semantics based on cognitive linguistics and the notion that there are a relatively small number of primitive conceptual schemas that characterize a lot of activity . so a typical one in this formulation is a container . so this is a static thing . and the notion is that all sorts of physical situations are characterized in terms of containers . going in and out the portals and con grad d: mmm . professor f: ok . but also , importantly for lakoff and these guys is all sorts of metaphorical things are also characterized this way . you get in trouble and you know et cetera grad d: mmm . professor f: and so s so , what we 're really trying to do is to map from the discourse to the conceptual semantics level . and from there to the appropriate decisions . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: so another one of these primitive , what are called `` image schemas `` , is uh goal seeking . so this a notion of a source , path , goal , trajector , possibly obstacles . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and the idea is this is another conceptual primitive . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and that all sorts of things , particularly in the tourist domain , can be represented in terms of uh source , path and goal . so the idea would be could we build an analyser that would take an utterance and say `` aha ! th this utterance is talking about an attempt to reach a goal . the goal is this , the pers the , uh traveller is that , uh the sor w where we are at now is is this , they 've mentioned possible obstacles , et cetera . `` so th the and this is an again attempt to get very wide coverage . so if you can do this , then the notion would be that across a very large range of domains , you could use this deep conceptual basis as the interface . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor f: and then , uh the processing of that , both on the input end , recognizing that certain words in a language talk about containers or goals , et cetera , and on the output end , given this kind of information , you can then uh make decisions about what actions to take . provides , they claim , a very powerful , general notion of deep semantics . so that 's what we 're really doing . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and nancy is going to her talk is going to be not about using this in applications , but about modeling how children might learn this kind of uh deep semantic grammar . phd a: mm - hmm . yep , yep . and how do you envision um the the um this deep semantic to be worked with . would it be highly ambiguous if and then there would be another module that takes that um highly underspecified deep semantic construction and map it onto the current context to find out what the person really was talking about in that context . or or a professor f: well that 's that 's that 's where the belief - net comes in . so th the idea is , let 's take this business about going to the powder - tower . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: so part of what you 'll get out of this will be the fact tha w if it works right , ok , that this is an agent that wants to go to this place and that 's their goal phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and there will be additional situational information . phd a: oh , ok . professor f: uh , ok , phd a: th professor f: part of it comes from the ontology . the tower is this kind of object . phd a: mm - hmm . yeah , ok . professor f: part of it comes from the user model . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and the idea of the belief - net is it combines the information from the dialogue which comes across in this general way , phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: you know this is a this is a goal seeking behavior , along with specific information from the ontology about the kinds of objects involved phd a: yeah ok , yeah , yep yep yep yep professor f: and about the situation about `` is it raining ? `` i do n't know . whatever it is . and so that 's the belief - net that we 've laid out . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and so th the coupling to the situation comes in this model from , at th at th at the belief - net , combining evidence from the dialogue with the ontology with the situation . phd a: yeah . grad d: hmm . professor f: but nancy is n't gon na talk about that , phd a: yeah , oh yeah , i see , professor f: just about the um phd a: yeah yeah , really . grad b: first steps . professor f: right . the the construction grammar . grad b: and she 's gon na start in a minute . professor f: in a minute . grad d: ah , ok . professor f: ok . phd g: is it i in , then , your place , in five five - a ? phd a: alright .

smartkom should feature a well defined core interface , with domain-specific information kept external . a syntactic analysis component that performs chunk parsing will be added to the system .

what problems were reported due to smartkom modules interaction ? </s> grad c: hmm . testing channel two . grad e: two , two . grad c: two . grad e: two . oh . grad d: hello ? grad b: hmm ? yeah thank you . ok well , so ralf and tilman are here . professor f: ok . great . great . grad b: made it safely . professor f: so the what w we h have been doing i they would like us all to read these digits . but we do n't all read them but a couple people read them . phd a: ok . professor f: uh , wan na give them all with german accents today or ? grad b: sure . professor f: ok . grad b: ok and the way you do it is you just read the numbers not as uh each single , so just like i do it . phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: ok . first you read the transcript number . turn . grad d: ok , uh what 's professor f: ok . let 's be done with this . phd a: ok . professor f: ok . this is ami , who and this is tilman and ralf . phd a: hi . uh - huh . nice to meet you . grad d: hi . professor f: hi . ok . so we 're gon na try to finish by five so people who want to can go hear nancy chang 's talk , uh downstairs . phd a: hmm . professor f: and you guys are g giving talks on tomorrow and wednesday lunch times , phd a: yes . grad d: mmm . professor f: right ? that 's great . ok so , do y do you know what we 're gon na do ? grad b: i thought two things uh we 'll introduce ourselves and what we do . and um we already talked with andreas , thilo and david and some lines of code were already written today and almost tested and just gon na say we have um again the recognizer to parser thing where we 're working on and that should be no problem and then that can be sort of developed uh as needed when we get enter the tourism domain . em we have talked this morning with the with tilman about the generator . phd a: s grad b: and um there one of our diligent workers has to sort of volunteer to look over tilman 's shoulder while he is changing the grammars to english phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: because w we have we face two ways . either we do a syllable concatenating um grammar for the english generation which is sort of starting from scratch and doing it the easy way , or we simply adopt the ah um more in - depth um style that is implemented in the german system and um are then able not only to produce strings but also the syntactic parse uh not parse not the syntactic tree that is underneath in the syntactic structure which is the way we decided we were gon na go because a , it 's easier in the beginning phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: and um it does require some some knowledge of of those grammars and and and some ling linguistic background . but um it should n't be a problem for anyone . professor f: ok so that sounds good . johno , are you gon na have some time t to do that uh w with these guys ? grad e: sure . professor f: cuz y you 're the grammar maven . grad e: ok . professor f: i mean it makes sense , grad e: yeah . professor f: does n't it ? yeah good . ok . so , i think that 's probably the the right way to do that . and an yeah , so i i actually wan na f to find out about it too , but i may not have time to get in . grad b: the the ultimate goal is that before they leave we we can run through the entire system input through output on at least one or two sample things . and um and by virtue of doing that then in this case johno will have acquired the knowledge of how to extend it . ad infinitum . when needed , if needed , when wanted and so forth . professor f: ok that sounds great . grad b: and um also um ralf has hooked up with david and you 're gon na continue either all through tonight or tomorrow on whatever to get the er parser interface working . grad d: mmm . grad b: they are thinning out and thickening out lattices and doing this kind of stuff to see what works best . grad d: mmm , yep . professor f: great . so , you guys enjoy your weekend ? phd a: yes , very much so . grad d: yeah , very much professor f: ok , before before you got put to work ? grad d: yeah professor f: great . ok , so that 's sort of one branch is to get us caught up on what 's going on . also of course it would be really nice to know what the plans are , in addition to what 's sort of already in code . phd a: yes . professor f: and we can d i dunno w w was there uh a time when we were set up to do that ? it probably will work better if we do it later in the week , after we actually understand uh better what 's going on . phd a: yes . grad d: hmm . phd a: yeah . professor f: so when do you guys leave ? phd a: um we 're here through sunday , grad d: oh phd a: so all through friday would be fine . professor f: oh , ok , so ok , so so anyt we 'll find a time later in the week to uh get together and talk about your understanding of what smartkom plans are . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and how we can change them . phd a: yes . sure . professor f: uh , grad b: should we already set a date for that ? might be beneficial while we 're all here . professor f: ok ? um what what does not work for me is thursday afternoon . i can do earlier in the day on thursday , or um most of the time on friday , not all . grad b: thursday morning sounds fine ? professor f: wha - but , johno , phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: what are your constraints ? grad e: um thursday afternoon does n't work for me , but grad b: neither does thursday morning , no ? grad e: uh thursday morning should be fine . phd a: ok . professor f: eleven ? eleven on thursday ? grad e: i was just thinking i w i will have leavened by eleven . professor f: right . right . this is then out of deference to our non - morning people . phd a: mm - hmm . ok . so at eleven ? grad d: hmm . phd a: thursday around eleven ? ok . professor f: yeah . and actually we can invite um andreas as well . grad b: uh he will be in washington , though . professor f: oh that 's true . he 's off off on his trip already . grad b: but um david is here and he 's actually knows everything about the smartkom recognizer . professor f: thilo . ok well yeah maybe we 'll see if david could make it . that would be good . grad b: ok so facing to to what we 've sort of been doing here um well for one thing we 're also using this room to collect data . phd a: yeah obviously . grad b: um um not this type of data , phd a: oh , ok . grad b: no not meeting data but sort of sort ah our version of a wizard experiment such not like the ones in munich but pretty close to it . phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: the major difference to the munich ones is that we do it via the telephone phd a: ok . grad b: even though all the recording is done here and so it 's a sort of a computer call system that gives you tourist information phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: tells you how to get places . and it breaks halfway through the experiment and a human operator comes on . and part of that is sort of trying to find out whether people change their linguistic verbal behavior when first thinking they speak to a machine and then to a human . phd a: yeah . grad b: and we 're setting it up so that we can we hope to implant certain intentions in people . for example um we have first looked at a simple sentence that `` how do i get to the powder - tower ? `` ok so you have the castle of heidelberg phd a: ok . grad b: and there is a tower and it 's called powder - tower . phd a: oh , ok . yeah . grad b: and um so what will you parse out of that sentence ? probably something that we specified in m - three - l , that is @ @ { comment } `` action go to whatever domain , object whatever powder - tower `` . grad d: mmm . grad b: and maybe some model will tell us , some gps module , in the mobile scenario where the person is at the moment . and um we 've sort of gone through that once before in the deep mail project and we noticed that first of all what are i should 've brought some slides , but what our so here 's the tower . think of this as a two - dimensional representation of the tower . and our system led people here , to a point where they were facing a wall in front of the tower . there is no entrance there , but it just happens to be the closest point of the road network to the geometric center because that 's how the algorithm works . so we took out that part of the road network as a hack and then it found actually the way to the entrance . which was now the closest point of the road network to phd a: yeah . grad b: ok , geometric center . but what we actually observed in heidelberg is that most people when they want to go there they actually do n't want to enter , because it 's not really interesting . they wan na go to a completely different point where they can look at it and take a picture . phd a: oh , ok . grad d: hmm . phd a: yeah . grad b: and so what uh uh a s you s let 's say a simple parse from a s from an utterance wo n't really give us is what the person actually wants . does he wan na go there to see it ? does he wan na go there now ? later ? how does the person wan na go there ? is that person more likely to want to walk there ? walk a scenic route ? and so forth . there are all kinds of decisions that we have identified in terms of getting to places and in terms of finding information about things . and we are constructing and then we 've identified more or less the extra - linguistic parameters that may f play a role . information related to the user and information related to the situation . and we also want to look closely on the linguistic information that what we can get from the utterance . that 's part of why we implant these intentions in the data collection to see whether people actually phrase things differently whether they want to enter in order to buy something or whether they just wan na go there to look at it . and um so the idea is to construct uh um suitable interfaces and a belief - net for a module that actually tries to guess what the underlying intention was . and then enrich or augment the m - three - l structures with what it thought what more it sort of got out of that utterance . so if it can make a good suggestion , `` hey ! `` you know , `` that person does n't wan na enter . that person just wants to take a picture , `` cuz he just bought film , or `` that person wants to enter because he discussed the admission fee before `` . or `` that person wants to enter because he wants to buy something and that you usually do inside of buildings `` and so forth . these ah these types of uh these bits of additional information are going to be embedded into the m - three - l structure in an sort of subfield that we have reserved . and if the action planner does something with it , great . if not you know , then that 's also something um that we ca n't really at least we { comment } want to offer the extra information . we do n't really um we 're not too worried . phd a: mm - hmm . grad d: hmm . grad b: i mean t s ultimately if you have if you can offer that information , somebody 's gon na s do something with it sooner or later . that 's sort of part of our belief . grad e: what was he saying ? grad b: um , for example , right now i know the gis from email is not able to calculate these viewpoints . so that 's a functionality that does n't exist yet to do that dynamically , phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: but if we can offer it that distinction , maybe somebody will go ahead and implement it . surely nobody 's gon na go ahead and implement it if it 's never gon na be used , so . what have i forgotten about ? oh yeah , how we do it , professor f: well th uh grad b: yeah that 's the professor f: no no . it 's a good time to pause . i s i see questions on peoples ' faces , so why do n't phd a: oh professor f: let 's let 's let 's hear phd a: well the obvious one would be if if you envision this as a module within smartkom , where exactly would that sit ? that 's the d grad b: um so far i 've thought of it as sort of adding it onto the modeler knowledge module . phd a: ok , yeah . grad b: so this is one that already adds additional information to the grad d: hmm . phd a: makes perfect sense . yes . grad d: hmm , ah . grad b: but it could sit anywhere in the attention - recognition i mean basically this is what attention - recognition literally sort of can phd a: well it 's supposed to do . yeah grad d: mmm . professor f: that 's what it should do . phd a: yeah . professor f: right , phd a: yeah . professor f: yeah . grad d: huh . grad b: yeah . phd a: well f from my understanding of what the people at phillips were originally trying to do does n't seem to quite fit into smartkom currently so what they 're really doing right now is only selecting among the alternatives , the hypotheses that they 're given enriched by the domain knowledge and the um discourse modeler and so on . grad b: yeah . phd a: so if if this is additional information that could be merged in by them . grad b: yeah . phd a: and then it would be available to action planning and and others . grad b: yeah . the professor f: let 's let 's that w ok that was one question . is there other other things that cuz we wan na not pa - pass over any you know , questions or concerns that you have . phd a: well there 're there 're two levels of of giving an answer and i guess on both levels i do n't have any um further questions . grad d: mmm . mmm . phd a: uh the the two levels will be as far as i 'm concerned as uh standing here for the generation module grad d: mmm . phd a: and the other is is my understanding of what smartkom uh is supposed to be professor f: right . phd a: and i i think that fits in perfectly professor f: so well , let me let me s expand on that a little bit from the point of view of the generation . grad d: hmm . phd a: yeah . professor f: so the idea is that we 've actually got this all laid out an and we could show it to you ig um robert did n't bring it today but there 's a a belief - net which is there 's a first cut at a belief - net that that does n't it is n't fully uh instantiated , and in particular some of the the combination rules and ways of getting the the conditional probabilities are n't there . but we believe that we have laid out the fundamental decisions in this little space phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and the things that influence them . so one of the decisions is what we call this ave thing . do you want to um access , view or enter a thing . grad d: hmm . professor f: so that 's a a discrete decision . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: there are only three possibilities and the uh what one would like is for this uh , knowledge modeling module to add which of those it is and give it to the planner . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: but , uh th the current design suggests that if it seems to be an important decision and if the belief - net is equivocal so that it does n't say that one of these is much more probable than the other , then an option is to go back and ask for the information you want . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: alright ? now there are two ways one can go a imagine doing that . for the debugging we 'll probably just have a a drop - down menu and the while you 're debugging you will just ok . but for a full system , then one might very well formulate a query , phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: give it to the dialogue planner and say this , you know ar are you know you are you planning to enter ? or whatever it whatever that might be . so that 's under that model then , there would be a uh um a loop in which this thing would formulate a query , phd a: yes . professor f: presumably give it to you . that would get expressed and then hopefully you know , you 'd get an answer back . phd a: yep . professor f: and that would of course the answer would have to be parsed . grad d: mmm . yep . professor f: right and phd a: yes . professor f: ok so , th that uh , we probably wo n't do this early on , because the current focus is more on the decision making and stuff like that . phd a: yep . professor f: but while we 're on the subject i just wanted to give you a sort of head 's up that it could be that some months from now we said `` ok we 're now ready to try to close that loop `` in terms of querying about some of these decisions . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad d: hmm . phd a: yep . so my suggestion then is that you um look into the currently ongoing discussion about how the action plans are supposed to look like . and they 're currently um agreeing or or in the process of agreeing on an x m l - ification of um something like a state - transition network of how dialogues would proceed . and the these um transition networks uh will be what the action planner interprets in a sense . professor f: hmm . d did you know this robert ? grad b: uh michael is doing that , right ? phd a: well uh marcus lerkult is actually implementing that stuff and marcus and michael together are um leading the discussion there , yeah . grad b: ok . professor f: so we ha we have to get in on that . phd a: yep . grad b: mm - hmm . grad d: mmm . professor f: because um partly those are like x - schemas . phd a: definitely . professor f: the transition diagrams . grad b: hmm . professor f: and it may be that that um we should early on make sure that they have the flexibility that we need . grad b: hmm . but they uh have i understood this right ? they they govern more or less the the dialogue behavior or the action phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: it 's not really what you do with the content of the dialogue but it 's so , i mean there is this this this nice interf grad d: uh , no , it 's it 's also a quantrant uh uh grad b: i is it professor f: so there 's ac so there th the word `` action `` , ok , is is what 's ambiguous here . grad d: i think . hmm . phd a: yes . professor f: so , um one thing is there 's an actual planner that tells the person in the tourist domain now , phd a: ok . professor f: per tells the person how to go , `` first go here , grad d: mm - hmm . professor f: first go there uh , you know , take a bus `` , whatever it is . so that 's that form of planning , and action , and a route planner and gis , all sort of stuff . uh but i think that is n't what you mean . phd a: no . no , in smartkom terminology that 's um called a function that 's modeled by a function modeler . and it 's th that 's completely um encapsulated from th the dialogue system . that 's simply a functionality that you give data as in a query and then you get back from that mmm , a functioning model um which might be a planner or a vcr or whatever . um some result and that 's then then used . professor f: well , ok , so that 's what i thought . so action he action here means dia uh speech ac uh you know dialogue act . phd a: yeah , yeah . yeah , in that in that sense grad b: mmm . phd a: yes , dialogue act , professor f: yeah . phd a: yeah . professor f: um , i think tha i think it 's not going to i think that 's not going to be good enough . i i don what uh what i meant by that . so i think the idea of having a , you know , transition diagram for the grammar of conversations is a good idea . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: ok ? and i think that we do hav definitely have to get in on it and find out ok . but i think that um when so , when you get to the tourist domain it 's not just an information retrieval system . phd a: mm - hmm . clearly . yes . professor f: right ? so this i this is where i think this people are gon na have to think this through a bit more carefully . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: so , if it 's only like in in the in the film and t v thing , ok , you can do this . and you just get information and give it to people . but what happens when you actually get them moving and so forth and so on phd a: yep . professor f: uh , y y your i d i think the notion of this as a self contained uh module you know th the functional module that that interacts with with where the tourism g stuff is going { comment } probably is too restrictive . phd a: yep . professor f: now i dunno how much people have thought ahead to the tourist domain in this phd a: probably not enough , i mean an another uh more basic point there is that the current um tasks and therefore th the concepts in this ac what 's called the action plan and what 's really the dialogue manager . professor f: yeah phd a: um is based on slots that have to be filled and the um kind of values in these slots would be fixed things like the a time or a movie title or something like this professor f: mm - hmm . right . phd a: whereas in the a um tourist domain it might be an entire route . set - based , or even very complex structured information in these slots professor f: indeed . right . phd a: and i 'm not sure if if complex slots of that type are really um being taken into consideration . professor f: ok . phd a: so that 's that 's really something we professor f: could you could you put a message into the right place to see if we can at least ask that question ? phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: yep . phd a: i mean nothing 's being completely settled there grad b: rea yep phd a: so this is really an ongoing discussion grad b: mm - hmm phd a: and that 's grad b: yeah and um it might actually ok ah also because um again in in deep map we have faced and implemented those problems once already phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: maybe we can even shuffle some know how from there to to markus and michael . phd a: yes . grad d: mmm . phd a: yep . grad b: and um mmm you do n't know ok th i 'll i 'll talk to michael it 's what i do anyway . who how far is the uh the the m - three - l specification for for the la natural language input gone on the the uh i have n't seen anything for the uh tourist path domain . grad d: yeah , it 's it 's not defined yet . grad b: and um you are probably also involved in that , grad d: um yeah . grad b: right ? uh together with the usual gang , um petra and jan grad d: mmm . yeah , there 's a meeting next next week i think grad b: ok because that 's those are the i think the the true key issues is how does the whatever comes out of the language input pipeline look like and then what the action planner does with it and how that is uh specified . i did n't think of the internal working of the uh the action planner and the language uh the function model as sort of relevant . because what what they take is sort of this this fixed representation of a of an intention . phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: and that can be as detailed or as crude as you want it to be . but um the internal workings of of the whether you know there 're dialogue action planners that work with belief - nets that are action planners that work with you know state automata . so that should n't really matter too much . i mean it does matter because it does have to keep track of you we are on part six of r a route that consists of eight steps and so forth phd a: right . professor f: yeah , th there there i think there are a lot of reasons why it matters . ok , so that uh , for example , the i it 's the action planner is going to take some spec and s make some suggestions about what the user should do . what the user says after that is going to be very much caught up with what the action planner told it . phd a: yes . professor f: if the if the parser and the language end does n't know what the person 's been told ok th it 's you 're making your life much more difficult than it has to be . grad b: yeah . professor f: right ? so if someone says the best t to uh go there is by taxi , let 's say . now the planner comes out and says you wan na get there fast , take a taxi . ok . and the language end does n't know that . ok , there 's all sorts of dialogues that wo n't make any sense which would be just fine . phd a: hmm grad b: yeah . professor f: uh phd a: that would b but that i think that that uh point has been realized and it 's it 's not really um been defined yet but there 's gon na be some kind of feedback and input from uh the action planner into all the analysis modules , telling them what to expect and what the current state of the discourse is . grad d: mmm . phd a: beyond what 's currently being implemented which is just word lists . professor f: yeah , but this is not the st this is not just the state of the discourse . grad b: mm - hmm . phd a: of of special interest . professor f: this is actually the state of the plan . that 's why phd a: yes , yes , mm - hmm yeah . grad b: mm - hmm . professor f: ok so it z and s uh , it 's great if people are already taking that into account . but one would have t have to see see the details . phd a: the specifics are n't really there yet . yes . so , there 's work to do there . professor f: yeah . so anyway , robert , that 's why i was thinking that grad b: mm - hmm . professor f: um i think you 're gon na need we talked about this several times that that the the input end is gon na need a fair amount of feedback from the planning end . phd a: hmm professor f: in in one of these things which are are much more continuous than the just the dialogue over movies and stuff . phd a: yeah . grad d: mmm . phd a: and even on on a more basic level the the action planner actually needs to be able to have um an expressive power that can deal with these structures . and not just um say um um the dialogue um will consist of ten possible states and th these states really are fixed in in a certain sense . professor f: hmm ? phd a: you have to professor f: would there be any chance of getting the terminology changed so that the dialogue planner was called a `` dialogue planner `` ? because there 's this other thing the o there 's this other thing in in the tourist domain which is gon na be a route planner phd a: that 'd be nice . professor f: or it 's really gon na be an action planner . and { comment } i it phd a: it oughta be called a a dialogue manager . cuz that 's what everybody else calls it . professor f: i would think , grad d: mmm . professor f: yeah . phd a: yeah . professor f: huh ? so , s so what would happen if we sent a note saying `` gee we 've talked about this and could n't we change this uh th the whole word ? `` i have no idea how complicated these things are . grad b: probably close to impossible . phd a: depends on who you talk to how . we 'll see . i 'll go check , cause i completely agree . yeah , grad d: mmm . phd a: and i think this is just for historical reasons within uh , the preparation phase of the project and not because somebody actually believes it ought to be action planner . so if there is resistance against changing it , that 's just because `` oh , we do n't want to change things . `` that that not deep reason professor f: ok , anyway . i if if that c in persists then we 're gon na need another term . for the thing that actually does the planning of the uh routes and whatever we are doing for the tourist . grad b: that 's external services . professor f: yeah , but that 's not g eh tha that ha has all the wrong connotations . it 's it sounds like it 's you know stand alone . it does n't interact , it does n't that 's why i 'm saying . i think you ca n't it 's fine for looking up when t you know when the show 's on tv . you go to th but i i i i think it 's really really wrong headed for something that you that has a lot of state , it 's gon na interact co in a complicated way with the uh understanding parts . grad b: yeah . yeah i think just the the spatial planner and the route planner i showed you once the interac action between them among them in the deep map system professor f: right . grad b: so a printout of the communication between those two fills up i do n't know how many pages phd a: hmm grad b: and that 's just part of how do i get to one place . it 's really insane . and uh but um so this is um definitely a good point to get uh michael into the discussion . or to enter his discussion , actually . phd a: yeah , marcus . grad b: that 's the way around . markus phd a: wh - where 's ? grad b: is he new in the in the ? phd a: yeah , he 's he started um i think january . grad d: yeah . phd a: and he 's gon na be responsible for the implementation of this action planner . dialogue manager . grad b: is he gon na continue with the old uh thing ? phd a: no , no he 's completely gon na rewrite everything . in java . grad b: ok . phd a: ok so that 's interesting . grad b: yes i was just that 's my next question phd a: hmm grad b: whether we 're we 're gon na stick to prolog or not . phd a: no . no , that 's gon na be phased out . professor f: yeah . grad b: ok but i do think the the function modeling concept has a certain makes sense in a in a certain light phd a: yeah . grad b: because the action planner should not be or the dialogue manager in that case should not um w have to worry about whether it 's interfacing with um something that does route planning in this way or that way phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: i i totally agree . grad b: huh , professor f: sure . grad b: it j professor f: yeah i i agree . there is there 's a logic to dialogue which which is is separable . i yeah . grad b: and it cant sort of formulate its what it wants in a in a rather a abstract uh way , you know f `` find me a good route for this . `` professor f: mm - hmm . grad b: it does n't really have to worry ab how route planner a or how route planner b actually wants it . so this is seemed like a good idea . in the beginning . professor f: it 's tricky . it 's tricky because one could well imagine i think it will turn out to be the case that uh , this thing we 're talking about , th the extended n uh knowledge modeler will fill in some parameters about what the person wants . one could well imagine that the next thing that 's trying to fill out the detailed uh , route planning , let 's say , will also have questions that it would like to ask the user . you could well imagine you get to a point where it 's got a a choice to make and it just does n't know something . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and so y you would like it t also be able to uh formulate a query . and to run that back through uh . the dialogue manager and to the output module and back around . grad b: hmm professor f: and a i a a good design would would allow that to happen . grad b: a lot of , yeah grad d: mmm . professor f: if if you know if if you ca n't make it happen then you you do your best . phd a: yeah but that does n't necessarily contradict um an architecture where there really is a pers a def well - defined interface . and and professor f: i totally agree . but but what it nee but th what the point is the in that case the dialogue manager is sort of event driven . so the dialogue manager may think it 's in a dialogue state of one sort , phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and this one of these planning modules comes along and says `` hey , right now we need to ask a question `` . so that forces the dialogue manager to change state . phd a: yes professor f: ok . phd a: sure , professor f: it could be y phd a: ye yeah i i think that 's that 's the um concept that people have , professor f: yeah , yeah it it phd a: yep . professor f: ok . phd a: and and the the underlying idea of course is that there is something like kernel modules with kernel functionality that you can plug uh certain applications like tourist information or um the home scenario with uh controlling a vcr and so on . and then extend it to an arbitrary number of applications eventually . so would n't that 's an additional reason to have this well - defined interface and keep these things like uh tourist information external . professor f: oh , yeah , yeah . phd a: and then call it external services . grad b: hmm . phd a: but of course the the more complex grad b: yeah , there is another philosophical issue that i think you know you can evade phd a: yep . grad b: but , at at least it makes sense to me that sooner or later uh a service is gon na come and describe itself to you . and that 's sort of what srini is working on in in in the daml uh project where um you you find a gis about that gives you information on berkeley , phd a: yeah . grad b: and it 's it 's gon na be there and tell you what it can do and how it wants to do things . and so you can actually interface to such a system without ever having met it before and the function modeler and a self - description of the um external service haggle it out phd a: hmm . grad b: and you can use the same language core , understanding core to interface with planner - a , planner - b , planner - c and so forth . phd a: hmm . grad d: mmm . grad b: which is , you know , uh uh utopian completely utopian at the moment , but slowly , you know , getting into the realm of the uh contingent . phd a: hmm . grad b: but we are facing of course much more um realistic problems . and language input for example , is of course uh crucial you know also when you do the sort of deep understanding analysis that we envision . um then of course , the uh um , you know what is it poverty of the stimulus , yet the m uh the less we get of that the better . and um so we we 're thinking , for example how much syntactic analysis actually happens already in the parser . and whether one could interface to that potentially grad d: hmm . yeah , are there currently is uh no syntactic analysis but in the next release there will be some . grad b: hmm . grad d: unless professor f: how 's it grad d: and it 's um uh you can access this professor f: s so uh y we we looked at the e current pattern matching thing . grad d: hmm . professor f: and as you say it 's just a surface pattern matcher . uh , so what are what are the plans roughly ? grad d: um it 's to to integrate and syntactic analysis . and um add some more features like segmentation . so then an utter more than one utterance is there um there 's often uh pause between it and a segmentation occurs . um professor f: so , the um so the idea is to uh have a pa y y a particular grad d: yeah professor f: do you have a particular parser in mind ? is it uh partic d i mean have you thought through ? is it an hpsg parser ? is it a whatever ? grad d: no no it 's uh i think it 's it 's totally complicated for it 's just one one person professor f: ok . grad d: and so i have to keep the professor f: oh , you have to do it . you have to do it , grad d: yeah , professor f: yeah . grad d: ah and so things must be simpler professor f: i see , grad d: but uh , miel syntactic analysis with um finite state transducers . professor f: so but the people at d f yeah . people at dfki have written a fair number of parsers . other you know , people over the years . uh have written various parsers at dfki . none of them are suitable ? i i i d i 'm asking . i do n't know . grad d: yeah , uh the problem is th that it has to be very fast because um if you want to for more than one path anywhere professor f: ok . grad d: what 's in the latches from the speech recognizer professor f: mm - hmm . grad d: so it 's speed is crucial . uh and they are not fast enough . professor f: mm - hmm . grad d: and they also have to be very robust . cuz of um speech recognition errors and professor f: ok . so , um so there was a chunk parser in verbmobil , that was one of the uh branchers . you know they d th i c there were these various uh , competing uh syntax modules . and i know one of them was a chunk parser and i do n't remember who did that . grad b: a alan ? grad d: i think it 's that might , at tuebingen i thought . professor f: yeah i d i do n't remember . grad d: was do you know something about that ? phd a: tubingen was at least involved in putting the chunks together grad d: in tub - at phd a: i ca n't quite recall whether they actually produced the chunks in the first place . grad d: oh professor f: uh . i see . yeah , that 's right . phd a: or wh grad d: oh from from stuttgart , professor f: there w that 's right . they w they had there were this was done with a two phase thing , where { comment } the chunk parser itself was pretty stupid grad d: yeah , also professor f: and then there was a kind of trying to fit them together that h used more context . phd a: right . yeah professor f: right ? phd a: well you s and and especially you did some some um , l um was a learning - based approach which learned from a big corpus of of trees . grad d: mm - hmm . professor f: right . phd a: and yes the it the chunk parser was a finite - state machine that um mark light originally w worked on in while he was in tuebingen professor f: right . phd a: and then somebody else in tuebingen picked that up . so it was done in tuebingen , yeah . definitely . professor f: but is that the kind of thing y it sounds like the kind of thing that you were thinking of . phd a: yeah i guess it 's similar . grad d: yeah . yeah that 's in this direction , yes professor f: what ? grad d: yeah , it 's in in this direction . grad b: the professor f: hmm . grad b: from michael strube , i 've heard very good stuff about the chunk parser that is done by forwiss , uh , which is in embassy doing the parsing . phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: so this is sort of came as a surprise to me that you know , embassy s { comment } is featuring a nice parser but it 's what i hear . one could also look at that and see whether there is some synergy possible . grad d: mm - hmm , yeah , it would be very interesting , mm - hmm . mmm , yeah . grad b: and they 're doing chunk parsing and it 's uh i i can give you the names of the people who do it there . but um . then there is of course more ways of parsing things . professor f: of course . but but uh given th the constraints , that you want it to be small and fast and so forth , my guess is you 're probably into some kind of chunk parsing . and uh i 'm not a big believer in this um statistical you know , cleaning up uh it that seems to me kind of a last resort if uh you ca n't do it any other way . uh but i dunno . grad d: hmm . professor f: it may i i may be that 's what you guys finally decide do . uh . and have you looked uh just again for context grad d: mm - hmm . professor f: there is this this one that they did at sri some years ago fastus ? grad d: um professor f: a grad d: yeah , i 've i 've looked at it but but it 's no not much uh information available . i found , professor f: ah ! grad d: but it 's also finite - state transducers , i thought . professor f: it is . yeah . i mean it 's it was pretty ambitious . grad d: and professor f: and of course it was english oriented , grad d: yeah , and and purely finite - state transducers are not so good for german since there 's um professor f: um w right . grad d: the word order is is uh not fixed professor f: yeah , i guess that 's the point is is all the morphology and stuff . and english is all th all word order . and it makes a lot more sense . grad d: yeah . professor f: and e yeah , ok . good point . so in in in german you 've got uh most of this done with grad d: mm - hmm . also it 's uh it 's um yes , uh the um choice between uh this processing and that processing and my template matcher . professor f: right . right . grad d: professor f: so what about um did y like morfix ? a a e y you 've got stemmers ? or is that something that grad d: um , yeah but it 's all in the in the lexicon . so it 's professor f: but did you have that ? grad d: yeah th the information is available . professor f: ok . i see . so , but grad d: so professor f: so y you just connect to the lexicon grad d: yeah professor f: and uh at least for german you have all all of the uh the stemming information . grad d: yeah , we can , oh yeah . we have knowledge bases from from verbmobil system we can use professor f: yep . grad d: and so . professor f: right . but it it it does n't look like i you 're using it . i did n't n see it being used in the current template uh parser . i i did n't see any uh of course we l actually only looked at the english . grad d: it um professor f: did we look at the german ? i do n't remember . grad d: yeah , but but it 's used for for stem forms . professor f: so w wha phd a: n well i think i think there 's some misunderstanding here professor f: i phd a: it 's morphix is not used on - line . grad d: oh , ok . phd a: s so the lexicon might be derived by morphix grad d: what ? phd a: but what what 's happening on - line is just um um a a retrieval from the lexicon which would give all the stemming information professor f: right . grad d: hmm . professor f: right . phd a: so it would be a full foreign lexicon . professor f: and that 's what you have . phd a: yep . grad d: yeah professor f: ok . grad b: we threw out all the forms . professor f: what uh i did n't reme grad b: we threw out all the forms professor f: huh ? grad b: because , you know , english , well professor f: oh ok , so it yeah , s s i thought i 'd grad d: mm - hmm . professor f: so in german then you actually do case matching and things like in the in the pattern matcher or not ? grad d: um not yet but it 's planned to do that . professor f: ok . cuz i r i did n't reme i did n't think i saw it . grad d: yeah professor f: have we looked at the german ? oh , i haven yeah that 's getting it from the lexicon is just fine . phd a: sure , right . grad d: oh yes . professor f: yeah , yeah , yeah . no problem with that . um yeah and here 's the case where the english and the german might really be significantly different . in terms of if you 're trying to build some fast parser and so forth and you really might wan na do it in a significantly different way . i do n't know . so you 've you guys have looked at this ? also ? in terms of you know , w if you 're doing this for english as well as german um do you think now that it would be this doing it similarly ? grad d: um yeah , it 's um i think it 's um yes , it 's it 's um possible to to do list processing . and maybe this is um more adequate for english and in german um set processing is used . professor f: set . grad d: maybe yeah . some extensions uh have to be made . for for a english version professor f: mmm . ok . interesting . not easy . grad b: well there 's m i 'm sure there 's gon na be more discussion on that after your talk . grad d: mm - hmm , grad b: we 're just gon na foreshadow what we saw that grad d: yeah . professor f: right . right . grad b: and um professor f: now actually , um are you guys free at five ? or do you have to go somewhere at five o ' clock tonight ? w in ten minutes ? grad d: ah phd a: uh uh i think we 're expect grad d: mmm . no . oder there was an talk ? phd a: yeah , there there 's the um practice talk . grad d: uh mmm , yeah . professor f: great . so you 're going to that . phd a: yeah , that that 's what we were planning to do . professor f: that 's good , because that will uh tell you a fair amount about the form of semantic construction grammar that we 're using . phd a: yeah . mm - hmm . professor f: so so i th i think that probably as good an introduction as you 'll get . grad d: ah . professor f: uh to the form of of uh conceptual grammar that that w we have in mind for this . grad d: mmm , ah . professor f: it wo n't talk particularly about how that relates to what uh robert was saying at the beginning . but let me give you a very short version of this . so we talked about the fact that there 're going to be a certain number of decisions that you want the knowledge modeler to make , that will be then fed to the function module , that does uh , route planning . it 's called the `` route planner `` or something . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: so there are these decisions . and then one half of this we talked about at little bit is how if you had the right information , if you knew something about what was said and about th the something about was the agent a tourist or a native or a business person or uh young or old , whatever . that information , and also about the uh , what we 're calling `` the entity `` , is it a castle , is it a bank ? is it a s town square , is it a statue ? whatever . so all that kind of information could be combined into decision networks and give you decisions . but the other half of the problem is how would you get that kind of information from the parsed input ? so , um so what you might try to do is just build more templates , saying uh we 're trying to build a templ you know build a template that w uh somehow would capture the fact that he wants to take a picture . grad d: mmm . professor f: ok ? and and we could you could do this . and it 's a small enough domain that probably you , you know grad d: mmm . professor f: ok . you could do this . but uh from our point of view this is also a research project and there are a couple of people not here for various reasons who are doing doctoral dissertations on this , phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and the idea that we 're really after is a very deep semantics based on cognitive linguistics and the notion that there are a relatively small number of primitive conceptual schemas that characterize a lot of activity . so a typical one in this formulation is a container . so this is a static thing . and the notion is that all sorts of physical situations are characterized in terms of containers . going in and out the portals and con grad d: mmm . professor f: ok . but also , importantly for lakoff and these guys is all sorts of metaphorical things are also characterized this way . you get in trouble and you know et cetera grad d: mmm . professor f: and so s so , what we 're really trying to do is to map from the discourse to the conceptual semantics level . and from there to the appropriate decisions . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: so another one of these primitive , what are called `` image schemas `` , is uh goal seeking . so this a notion of a source , path , goal , trajector , possibly obstacles . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and the idea is this is another conceptual primitive . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and that all sorts of things , particularly in the tourist domain , can be represented in terms of uh source , path and goal . so the idea would be could we build an analyser that would take an utterance and say `` aha ! th this utterance is talking about an attempt to reach a goal . the goal is this , the pers the , uh traveller is that , uh the sor w where we are at now is is this , they 've mentioned possible obstacles , et cetera . `` so th the and this is an again attempt to get very wide coverage . so if you can do this , then the notion would be that across a very large range of domains , you could use this deep conceptual basis as the interface . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor f: and then , uh the processing of that , both on the input end , recognizing that certain words in a language talk about containers or goals , et cetera , and on the output end , given this kind of information , you can then uh make decisions about what actions to take . provides , they claim , a very powerful , general notion of deep semantics . so that 's what we 're really doing . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and nancy is going to her talk is going to be not about using this in applications , but about modeling how children might learn this kind of uh deep semantic grammar . phd a: mm - hmm . yep , yep . and how do you envision um the the um this deep semantic to be worked with . would it be highly ambiguous if and then there would be another module that takes that um highly underspecified deep semantic construction and map it onto the current context to find out what the person really was talking about in that context . or or a professor f: well that 's that 's that 's where the belief - net comes in . so th the idea is , let 's take this business about going to the powder - tower . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: so part of what you 'll get out of this will be the fact tha w if it works right , ok , that this is an agent that wants to go to this place and that 's their goal phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and there will be additional situational information . phd a: oh , ok . professor f: uh , ok , phd a: th professor f: part of it comes from the ontology . the tower is this kind of object . phd a: mm - hmm . yeah , ok . professor f: part of it comes from the user model . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and the idea of the belief - net is it combines the information from the dialogue which comes across in this general way , phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: you know this is a this is a goal seeking behavior , along with specific information from the ontology about the kinds of objects involved phd a: yeah ok , yeah , yep yep yep yep professor f: and about the situation about `` is it raining ? `` i do n't know . whatever it is . and so that 's the belief - net that we 've laid out . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and so th the coupling to the situation comes in this model from , at th at th at the belief - net , combining evidence from the dialogue with the ontology with the situation . phd a: yeah . grad d: hmm . professor f: but nancy is n't gon na talk about that , phd a: yeah , oh yeah , i see , professor f: just about the um phd a: yeah yeah , really . grad b: first steps . professor f: right . the the construction grammar . grad b: and she 's gon na start in a minute . professor f: in a minute . grad d: ah , ok . professor f: ok . phd g: is it i in , then , your place , in five five - a ? phd a: alright .

as a functional module , the action planner is too restrictive for the tourist domain and requires complex slots from the dialogue manager . interactions in a deep map system between the spatial planner and the route planner are too convoluted . smartkom requires a fast and robust parser that includes language-specific extensions .

what was said about the parser interface ? </s> grad c: hmm . testing channel two . grad e: two , two . grad c: two . grad e: two . oh . grad d: hello ? grad b: hmm ? yeah thank you . ok well , so ralf and tilman are here . professor f: ok . great . great . grad b: made it safely . professor f: so the what w we h have been doing i they would like us all to read these digits . but we do n't all read them but a couple people read them . phd a: ok . professor f: uh , wan na give them all with german accents today or ? grad b: sure . professor f: ok . grad b: ok and the way you do it is you just read the numbers not as uh each single , so just like i do it . phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: ok . first you read the transcript number . turn . grad d: ok , uh what 's professor f: ok . let 's be done with this . phd a: ok . professor f: ok . this is ami , who and this is tilman and ralf . phd a: hi . uh - huh . nice to meet you . grad d: hi . professor f: hi . ok . so we 're gon na try to finish by five so people who want to can go hear nancy chang 's talk , uh downstairs . phd a: hmm . professor f: and you guys are g giving talks on tomorrow and wednesday lunch times , phd a: yes . grad d: mmm . professor f: right ? that 's great . ok so , do y do you know what we 're gon na do ? grad b: i thought two things uh we 'll introduce ourselves and what we do . and um we already talked with andreas , thilo and david and some lines of code were already written today and almost tested and just gon na say we have um again the recognizer to parser thing where we 're working on and that should be no problem and then that can be sort of developed uh as needed when we get enter the tourism domain . em we have talked this morning with the with tilman about the generator . phd a: s grad b: and um there one of our diligent workers has to sort of volunteer to look over tilman 's shoulder while he is changing the grammars to english phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: because w we have we face two ways . either we do a syllable concatenating um grammar for the english generation which is sort of starting from scratch and doing it the easy way , or we simply adopt the ah um more in - depth um style that is implemented in the german system and um are then able not only to produce strings but also the syntactic parse uh not parse not the syntactic tree that is underneath in the syntactic structure which is the way we decided we were gon na go because a , it 's easier in the beginning phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: and um it does require some some knowledge of of those grammars and and and some ling linguistic background . but um it should n't be a problem for anyone . professor f: ok so that sounds good . johno , are you gon na have some time t to do that uh w with these guys ? grad e: sure . professor f: cuz y you 're the grammar maven . grad e: ok . professor f: i mean it makes sense , grad e: yeah . professor f: does n't it ? yeah good . ok . so , i think that 's probably the the right way to do that . and an yeah , so i i actually wan na f to find out about it too , but i may not have time to get in . grad b: the the ultimate goal is that before they leave we we can run through the entire system input through output on at least one or two sample things . and um and by virtue of doing that then in this case johno will have acquired the knowledge of how to extend it . ad infinitum . when needed , if needed , when wanted and so forth . professor f: ok that sounds great . grad b: and um also um ralf has hooked up with david and you 're gon na continue either all through tonight or tomorrow on whatever to get the er parser interface working . grad d: mmm . grad b: they are thinning out and thickening out lattices and doing this kind of stuff to see what works best . grad d: mmm , yep . professor f: great . so , you guys enjoy your weekend ? phd a: yes , very much so . grad d: yeah , very much professor f: ok , before before you got put to work ? grad d: yeah professor f: great . ok , so that 's sort of one branch is to get us caught up on what 's going on . also of course it would be really nice to know what the plans are , in addition to what 's sort of already in code . phd a: yes . professor f: and we can d i dunno w w was there uh a time when we were set up to do that ? it probably will work better if we do it later in the week , after we actually understand uh better what 's going on . phd a: yes . grad d: hmm . phd a: yeah . professor f: so when do you guys leave ? phd a: um we 're here through sunday , grad d: oh phd a: so all through friday would be fine . professor f: oh , ok , so ok , so so anyt we 'll find a time later in the week to uh get together and talk about your understanding of what smartkom plans are . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and how we can change them . phd a: yes . sure . professor f: uh , grad b: should we already set a date for that ? might be beneficial while we 're all here . professor f: ok ? um what what does not work for me is thursday afternoon . i can do earlier in the day on thursday , or um most of the time on friday , not all . grad b: thursday morning sounds fine ? professor f: wha - but , johno , phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: what are your constraints ? grad e: um thursday afternoon does n't work for me , but grad b: neither does thursday morning , no ? grad e: uh thursday morning should be fine . phd a: ok . professor f: eleven ? eleven on thursday ? grad e: i was just thinking i w i will have leavened by eleven . professor f: right . right . this is then out of deference to our non - morning people . phd a: mm - hmm . ok . so at eleven ? grad d: hmm . phd a: thursday around eleven ? ok . professor f: yeah . and actually we can invite um andreas as well . grad b: uh he will be in washington , though . professor f: oh that 's true . he 's off off on his trip already . grad b: but um david is here and he 's actually knows everything about the smartkom recognizer . professor f: thilo . ok well yeah maybe we 'll see if david could make it . that would be good . grad b: ok so facing to to what we 've sort of been doing here um well for one thing we 're also using this room to collect data . phd a: yeah obviously . grad b: um um not this type of data , phd a: oh , ok . grad b: no not meeting data but sort of sort ah our version of a wizard experiment such not like the ones in munich but pretty close to it . phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: the major difference to the munich ones is that we do it via the telephone phd a: ok . grad b: even though all the recording is done here and so it 's a sort of a computer call system that gives you tourist information phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: tells you how to get places . and it breaks halfway through the experiment and a human operator comes on . and part of that is sort of trying to find out whether people change their linguistic verbal behavior when first thinking they speak to a machine and then to a human . phd a: yeah . grad b: and we 're setting it up so that we can we hope to implant certain intentions in people . for example um we have first looked at a simple sentence that `` how do i get to the powder - tower ? `` ok so you have the castle of heidelberg phd a: ok . grad b: and there is a tower and it 's called powder - tower . phd a: oh , ok . yeah . grad b: and um so what will you parse out of that sentence ? probably something that we specified in m - three - l , that is @ @ { comment } `` action go to whatever domain , object whatever powder - tower `` . grad d: mmm . grad b: and maybe some model will tell us , some gps module , in the mobile scenario where the person is at the moment . and um we 've sort of gone through that once before in the deep mail project and we noticed that first of all what are i should 've brought some slides , but what our so here 's the tower . think of this as a two - dimensional representation of the tower . and our system led people here , to a point where they were facing a wall in front of the tower . there is no entrance there , but it just happens to be the closest point of the road network to the geometric center because that 's how the algorithm works . so we took out that part of the road network as a hack and then it found actually the way to the entrance . which was now the closest point of the road network to phd a: yeah . grad b: ok , geometric center . but what we actually observed in heidelberg is that most people when they want to go there they actually do n't want to enter , because it 's not really interesting . they wan na go to a completely different point where they can look at it and take a picture . phd a: oh , ok . grad d: hmm . phd a: yeah . grad b: and so what uh uh a s you s let 's say a simple parse from a s from an utterance wo n't really give us is what the person actually wants . does he wan na go there to see it ? does he wan na go there now ? later ? how does the person wan na go there ? is that person more likely to want to walk there ? walk a scenic route ? and so forth . there are all kinds of decisions that we have identified in terms of getting to places and in terms of finding information about things . and we are constructing and then we 've identified more or less the extra - linguistic parameters that may f play a role . information related to the user and information related to the situation . and we also want to look closely on the linguistic information that what we can get from the utterance . that 's part of why we implant these intentions in the data collection to see whether people actually phrase things differently whether they want to enter in order to buy something or whether they just wan na go there to look at it . and um so the idea is to construct uh um suitable interfaces and a belief - net for a module that actually tries to guess what the underlying intention was . and then enrich or augment the m - three - l structures with what it thought what more it sort of got out of that utterance . so if it can make a good suggestion , `` hey ! `` you know , `` that person does n't wan na enter . that person just wants to take a picture , `` cuz he just bought film , or `` that person wants to enter because he discussed the admission fee before `` . or `` that person wants to enter because he wants to buy something and that you usually do inside of buildings `` and so forth . these ah these types of uh these bits of additional information are going to be embedded into the m - three - l structure in an sort of subfield that we have reserved . and if the action planner does something with it , great . if not you know , then that 's also something um that we ca n't really at least we { comment } want to offer the extra information . we do n't really um we 're not too worried . phd a: mm - hmm . grad d: hmm . grad b: i mean t s ultimately if you have if you can offer that information , somebody 's gon na s do something with it sooner or later . that 's sort of part of our belief . grad e: what was he saying ? grad b: um , for example , right now i know the gis from email is not able to calculate these viewpoints . so that 's a functionality that does n't exist yet to do that dynamically , phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: but if we can offer it that distinction , maybe somebody will go ahead and implement it . surely nobody 's gon na go ahead and implement it if it 's never gon na be used , so . what have i forgotten about ? oh yeah , how we do it , professor f: well th uh grad b: yeah that 's the professor f: no no . it 's a good time to pause . i s i see questions on peoples ' faces , so why do n't phd a: oh professor f: let 's let 's let 's hear phd a: well the obvious one would be if if you envision this as a module within smartkom , where exactly would that sit ? that 's the d grad b: um so far i 've thought of it as sort of adding it onto the modeler knowledge module . phd a: ok , yeah . grad b: so this is one that already adds additional information to the grad d: hmm . phd a: makes perfect sense . yes . grad d: hmm , ah . grad b: but it could sit anywhere in the attention - recognition i mean basically this is what attention - recognition literally sort of can phd a: well it 's supposed to do . yeah grad d: mmm . professor f: that 's what it should do . phd a: yeah . professor f: right , phd a: yeah . professor f: yeah . grad d: huh . grad b: yeah . phd a: well f from my understanding of what the people at phillips were originally trying to do does n't seem to quite fit into smartkom currently so what they 're really doing right now is only selecting among the alternatives , the hypotheses that they 're given enriched by the domain knowledge and the um discourse modeler and so on . grad b: yeah . phd a: so if if this is additional information that could be merged in by them . grad b: yeah . phd a: and then it would be available to action planning and and others . grad b: yeah . the professor f: let 's let 's that w ok that was one question . is there other other things that cuz we wan na not pa - pass over any you know , questions or concerns that you have . phd a: well there 're there 're two levels of of giving an answer and i guess on both levels i do n't have any um further questions . grad d: mmm . mmm . phd a: uh the the two levels will be as far as i 'm concerned as uh standing here for the generation module grad d: mmm . phd a: and the other is is my understanding of what smartkom uh is supposed to be professor f: right . phd a: and i i think that fits in perfectly professor f: so well , let me let me s expand on that a little bit from the point of view of the generation . grad d: hmm . phd a: yeah . professor f: so the idea is that we 've actually got this all laid out an and we could show it to you ig um robert did n't bring it today but there 's a a belief - net which is there 's a first cut at a belief - net that that does n't it is n't fully uh instantiated , and in particular some of the the combination rules and ways of getting the the conditional probabilities are n't there . but we believe that we have laid out the fundamental decisions in this little space phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and the things that influence them . so one of the decisions is what we call this ave thing . do you want to um access , view or enter a thing . grad d: hmm . professor f: so that 's a a discrete decision . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: there are only three possibilities and the uh what one would like is for this uh , knowledge modeling module to add which of those it is and give it to the planner . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: but , uh th the current design suggests that if it seems to be an important decision and if the belief - net is equivocal so that it does n't say that one of these is much more probable than the other , then an option is to go back and ask for the information you want . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: alright ? now there are two ways one can go a imagine doing that . for the debugging we 'll probably just have a a drop - down menu and the while you 're debugging you will just ok . but for a full system , then one might very well formulate a query , phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: give it to the dialogue planner and say this , you know ar are you know you are you planning to enter ? or whatever it whatever that might be . so that 's under that model then , there would be a uh um a loop in which this thing would formulate a query , phd a: yes . professor f: presumably give it to you . that would get expressed and then hopefully you know , you 'd get an answer back . phd a: yep . professor f: and that would of course the answer would have to be parsed . grad d: mmm . yep . professor f: right and phd a: yes . professor f: ok so , th that uh , we probably wo n't do this early on , because the current focus is more on the decision making and stuff like that . phd a: yep . professor f: but while we 're on the subject i just wanted to give you a sort of head 's up that it could be that some months from now we said `` ok we 're now ready to try to close that loop `` in terms of querying about some of these decisions . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad d: hmm . phd a: yep . so my suggestion then is that you um look into the currently ongoing discussion about how the action plans are supposed to look like . and they 're currently um agreeing or or in the process of agreeing on an x m l - ification of um something like a state - transition network of how dialogues would proceed . and the these um transition networks uh will be what the action planner interprets in a sense . professor f: hmm . d did you know this robert ? grad b: uh michael is doing that , right ? phd a: well uh marcus lerkult is actually implementing that stuff and marcus and michael together are um leading the discussion there , yeah . grad b: ok . professor f: so we ha we have to get in on that . phd a: yep . grad b: mm - hmm . grad d: mmm . professor f: because um partly those are like x - schemas . phd a: definitely . professor f: the transition diagrams . grad b: hmm . professor f: and it may be that that um we should early on make sure that they have the flexibility that we need . grad b: hmm . but they uh have i understood this right ? they they govern more or less the the dialogue behavior or the action phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: it 's not really what you do with the content of the dialogue but it 's so , i mean there is this this this nice interf grad d: uh , no , it 's it 's also a quantrant uh uh grad b: i is it professor f: so there 's ac so there th the word `` action `` , ok , is is what 's ambiguous here . grad d: i think . hmm . phd a: yes . professor f: so , um one thing is there 's an actual planner that tells the person in the tourist domain now , phd a: ok . professor f: per tells the person how to go , `` first go here , grad d: mm - hmm . professor f: first go there uh , you know , take a bus `` , whatever it is . so that 's that form of planning , and action , and a route planner and gis , all sort of stuff . uh but i think that is n't what you mean . phd a: no . no , in smartkom terminology that 's um called a function that 's modeled by a function modeler . and it 's th that 's completely um encapsulated from th the dialogue system . that 's simply a functionality that you give data as in a query and then you get back from that mmm , a functioning model um which might be a planner or a vcr or whatever . um some result and that 's then then used . professor f: well , ok , so that 's what i thought . so action he action here means dia uh speech ac uh you know dialogue act . phd a: yeah , yeah . yeah , in that in that sense grad b: mmm . phd a: yes , dialogue act , professor f: yeah . phd a: yeah . professor f: um , i think tha i think it 's not going to i think that 's not going to be good enough . i i don what uh what i meant by that . so i think the idea of having a , you know , transition diagram for the grammar of conversations is a good idea . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: ok ? and i think that we do hav definitely have to get in on it and find out ok . but i think that um when so , when you get to the tourist domain it 's not just an information retrieval system . phd a: mm - hmm . clearly . yes . professor f: right ? so this i this is where i think this people are gon na have to think this through a bit more carefully . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: so , if it 's only like in in the in the film and t v thing , ok , you can do this . and you just get information and give it to people . but what happens when you actually get them moving and so forth and so on phd a: yep . professor f: uh , y y your i d i think the notion of this as a self contained uh module you know th the functional module that that interacts with with where the tourism g stuff is going { comment } probably is too restrictive . phd a: yep . professor f: now i dunno how much people have thought ahead to the tourist domain in this phd a: probably not enough , i mean an another uh more basic point there is that the current um tasks and therefore th the concepts in this ac what 's called the action plan and what 's really the dialogue manager . professor f: yeah phd a: um is based on slots that have to be filled and the um kind of values in these slots would be fixed things like the a time or a movie title or something like this professor f: mm - hmm . right . phd a: whereas in the a um tourist domain it might be an entire route . set - based , or even very complex structured information in these slots professor f: indeed . right . phd a: and i 'm not sure if if complex slots of that type are really um being taken into consideration . professor f: ok . phd a: so that 's that 's really something we professor f: could you could you put a message into the right place to see if we can at least ask that question ? phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: yep . phd a: i mean nothing 's being completely settled there grad b: rea yep phd a: so this is really an ongoing discussion grad b: mm - hmm phd a: and that 's grad b: yeah and um it might actually ok ah also because um again in in deep map we have faced and implemented those problems once already phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: maybe we can even shuffle some know how from there to to markus and michael . phd a: yes . grad d: mmm . phd a: yep . grad b: and um mmm you do n't know ok th i 'll i 'll talk to michael it 's what i do anyway . who how far is the uh the the m - three - l specification for for the la natural language input gone on the the uh i have n't seen anything for the uh tourist path domain . grad d: yeah , it 's it 's not defined yet . grad b: and um you are probably also involved in that , grad d: um yeah . grad b: right ? uh together with the usual gang , um petra and jan grad d: mmm . yeah , there 's a meeting next next week i think grad b: ok because that 's those are the i think the the true key issues is how does the whatever comes out of the language input pipeline look like and then what the action planner does with it and how that is uh specified . i did n't think of the internal working of the uh the action planner and the language uh the function model as sort of relevant . because what what they take is sort of this this fixed representation of a of an intention . phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: and that can be as detailed or as crude as you want it to be . but um the internal workings of of the whether you know there 're dialogue action planners that work with belief - nets that are action planners that work with you know state automata . so that should n't really matter too much . i mean it does matter because it does have to keep track of you we are on part six of r a route that consists of eight steps and so forth phd a: right . professor f: yeah , th there there i think there are a lot of reasons why it matters . ok , so that uh , for example , the i it 's the action planner is going to take some spec and s make some suggestions about what the user should do . what the user says after that is going to be very much caught up with what the action planner told it . phd a: yes . professor f: if the if the parser and the language end does n't know what the person 's been told ok th it 's you 're making your life much more difficult than it has to be . grad b: yeah . professor f: right ? so if someone says the best t to uh go there is by taxi , let 's say . now the planner comes out and says you wan na get there fast , take a taxi . ok . and the language end does n't know that . ok , there 's all sorts of dialogues that wo n't make any sense which would be just fine . phd a: hmm grad b: yeah . professor f: uh phd a: that would b but that i think that that uh point has been realized and it 's it 's not really um been defined yet but there 's gon na be some kind of feedback and input from uh the action planner into all the analysis modules , telling them what to expect and what the current state of the discourse is . grad d: mmm . phd a: beyond what 's currently being implemented which is just word lists . professor f: yeah , but this is not the st this is not just the state of the discourse . grad b: mm - hmm . phd a: of of special interest . professor f: this is actually the state of the plan . that 's why phd a: yes , yes , mm - hmm yeah . grad b: mm - hmm . professor f: ok so it z and s uh , it 's great if people are already taking that into account . but one would have t have to see see the details . phd a: the specifics are n't really there yet . yes . so , there 's work to do there . professor f: yeah . so anyway , robert , that 's why i was thinking that grad b: mm - hmm . professor f: um i think you 're gon na need we talked about this several times that that the the input end is gon na need a fair amount of feedback from the planning end . phd a: hmm professor f: in in one of these things which are are much more continuous than the just the dialogue over movies and stuff . phd a: yeah . grad d: mmm . phd a: and even on on a more basic level the the action planner actually needs to be able to have um an expressive power that can deal with these structures . and not just um say um um the dialogue um will consist of ten possible states and th these states really are fixed in in a certain sense . professor f: hmm ? phd a: you have to professor f: would there be any chance of getting the terminology changed so that the dialogue planner was called a `` dialogue planner `` ? because there 's this other thing the o there 's this other thing in in the tourist domain which is gon na be a route planner phd a: that 'd be nice . professor f: or it 's really gon na be an action planner . and { comment } i it phd a: it oughta be called a a dialogue manager . cuz that 's what everybody else calls it . professor f: i would think , grad d: mmm . professor f: yeah . phd a: yeah . professor f: huh ? so , s so what would happen if we sent a note saying `` gee we 've talked about this and could n't we change this uh th the whole word ? `` i have no idea how complicated these things are . grad b: probably close to impossible . phd a: depends on who you talk to how . we 'll see . i 'll go check , cause i completely agree . yeah , grad d: mmm . phd a: and i think this is just for historical reasons within uh , the preparation phase of the project and not because somebody actually believes it ought to be action planner . so if there is resistance against changing it , that 's just because `` oh , we do n't want to change things . `` that that not deep reason professor f: ok , anyway . i if if that c in persists then we 're gon na need another term . for the thing that actually does the planning of the uh routes and whatever we are doing for the tourist . grad b: that 's external services . professor f: yeah , but that 's not g eh tha that ha has all the wrong connotations . it 's it sounds like it 's you know stand alone . it does n't interact , it does n't that 's why i 'm saying . i think you ca n't it 's fine for looking up when t you know when the show 's on tv . you go to th but i i i i think it 's really really wrong headed for something that you that has a lot of state , it 's gon na interact co in a complicated way with the uh understanding parts . grad b: yeah . yeah i think just the the spatial planner and the route planner i showed you once the interac action between them among them in the deep map system professor f: right . grad b: so a printout of the communication between those two fills up i do n't know how many pages phd a: hmm grad b: and that 's just part of how do i get to one place . it 's really insane . and uh but um so this is um definitely a good point to get uh michael into the discussion . or to enter his discussion , actually . phd a: yeah , marcus . grad b: that 's the way around . markus phd a: wh - where 's ? grad b: is he new in the in the ? phd a: yeah , he 's he started um i think january . grad d: yeah . phd a: and he 's gon na be responsible for the implementation of this action planner . dialogue manager . grad b: is he gon na continue with the old uh thing ? phd a: no , no he 's completely gon na rewrite everything . in java . grad b: ok . phd a: ok so that 's interesting . grad b: yes i was just that 's my next question phd a: hmm grad b: whether we 're we 're gon na stick to prolog or not . phd a: no . no , that 's gon na be phased out . professor f: yeah . grad b: ok but i do think the the function modeling concept has a certain makes sense in a in a certain light phd a: yeah . grad b: because the action planner should not be or the dialogue manager in that case should not um w have to worry about whether it 's interfacing with um something that does route planning in this way or that way phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: i i totally agree . grad b: huh , professor f: sure . grad b: it j professor f: yeah i i agree . there is there 's a logic to dialogue which which is is separable . i yeah . grad b: and it cant sort of formulate its what it wants in a in a rather a abstract uh way , you know f `` find me a good route for this . `` professor f: mm - hmm . grad b: it does n't really have to worry ab how route planner a or how route planner b actually wants it . so this is seemed like a good idea . in the beginning . professor f: it 's tricky . it 's tricky because one could well imagine i think it will turn out to be the case that uh , this thing we 're talking about , th the extended n uh knowledge modeler will fill in some parameters about what the person wants . one could well imagine that the next thing that 's trying to fill out the detailed uh , route planning , let 's say , will also have questions that it would like to ask the user . you could well imagine you get to a point where it 's got a a choice to make and it just does n't know something . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and so y you would like it t also be able to uh formulate a query . and to run that back through uh . the dialogue manager and to the output module and back around . grad b: hmm professor f: and a i a a good design would would allow that to happen . grad b: a lot of , yeah grad d: mmm . professor f: if if you know if if you ca n't make it happen then you you do your best . phd a: yeah but that does n't necessarily contradict um an architecture where there really is a pers a def well - defined interface . and and professor f: i totally agree . but but what it nee but th what the point is the in that case the dialogue manager is sort of event driven . so the dialogue manager may think it 's in a dialogue state of one sort , phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and this one of these planning modules comes along and says `` hey , right now we need to ask a question `` . so that forces the dialogue manager to change state . phd a: yes professor f: ok . phd a: sure , professor f: it could be y phd a: ye yeah i i think that 's that 's the um concept that people have , professor f: yeah , yeah it it phd a: yep . professor f: ok . phd a: and and the the underlying idea of course is that there is something like kernel modules with kernel functionality that you can plug uh certain applications like tourist information or um the home scenario with uh controlling a vcr and so on . and then extend it to an arbitrary number of applications eventually . so would n't that 's an additional reason to have this well - defined interface and keep these things like uh tourist information external . professor f: oh , yeah , yeah . phd a: and then call it external services . grad b: hmm . phd a: but of course the the more complex grad b: yeah , there is another philosophical issue that i think you know you can evade phd a: yep . grad b: but , at at least it makes sense to me that sooner or later uh a service is gon na come and describe itself to you . and that 's sort of what srini is working on in in in the daml uh project where um you you find a gis about that gives you information on berkeley , phd a: yeah . grad b: and it 's it 's gon na be there and tell you what it can do and how it wants to do things . and so you can actually interface to such a system without ever having met it before and the function modeler and a self - description of the um external service haggle it out phd a: hmm . grad b: and you can use the same language core , understanding core to interface with planner - a , planner - b , planner - c and so forth . phd a: hmm . grad d: mmm . grad b: which is , you know , uh uh utopian completely utopian at the moment , but slowly , you know , getting into the realm of the uh contingent . phd a: hmm . grad b: but we are facing of course much more um realistic problems . and language input for example , is of course uh crucial you know also when you do the sort of deep understanding analysis that we envision . um then of course , the uh um , you know what is it poverty of the stimulus , yet the m uh the less we get of that the better . and um so we we 're thinking , for example how much syntactic analysis actually happens already in the parser . and whether one could interface to that potentially grad d: hmm . yeah , are there currently is uh no syntactic analysis but in the next release there will be some . grad b: hmm . grad d: unless professor f: how 's it grad d: and it 's um uh you can access this professor f: s so uh y we we looked at the e current pattern matching thing . grad d: hmm . professor f: and as you say it 's just a surface pattern matcher . uh , so what are what are the plans roughly ? grad d: um it 's to to integrate and syntactic analysis . and um add some more features like segmentation . so then an utter more than one utterance is there um there 's often uh pause between it and a segmentation occurs . um professor f: so , the um so the idea is to uh have a pa y y a particular grad d: yeah professor f: do you have a particular parser in mind ? is it uh partic d i mean have you thought through ? is it an hpsg parser ? is it a whatever ? grad d: no no it 's uh i think it 's it 's totally complicated for it 's just one one person professor f: ok . grad d: and so i have to keep the professor f: oh , you have to do it . you have to do it , grad d: yeah , professor f: yeah . grad d: ah and so things must be simpler professor f: i see , grad d: but uh , miel syntactic analysis with um finite state transducers . professor f: so but the people at d f yeah . people at dfki have written a fair number of parsers . other you know , people over the years . uh have written various parsers at dfki . none of them are suitable ? i i i d i 'm asking . i do n't know . grad d: yeah , uh the problem is th that it has to be very fast because um if you want to for more than one path anywhere professor f: ok . grad d: what 's in the latches from the speech recognizer professor f: mm - hmm . grad d: so it 's speed is crucial . uh and they are not fast enough . professor f: mm - hmm . grad d: and they also have to be very robust . cuz of um speech recognition errors and professor f: ok . so , um so there was a chunk parser in verbmobil , that was one of the uh branchers . you know they d th i c there were these various uh , competing uh syntax modules . and i know one of them was a chunk parser and i do n't remember who did that . grad b: a alan ? grad d: i think it 's that might , at tuebingen i thought . professor f: yeah i d i do n't remember . grad d: was do you know something about that ? phd a: tubingen was at least involved in putting the chunks together grad d: in tub - at phd a: i ca n't quite recall whether they actually produced the chunks in the first place . grad d: oh professor f: uh . i see . yeah , that 's right . phd a: or wh grad d: oh from from stuttgart , professor f: there w that 's right . they w they had there were this was done with a two phase thing , where { comment } the chunk parser itself was pretty stupid grad d: yeah , also professor f: and then there was a kind of trying to fit them together that h used more context . phd a: right . yeah professor f: right ? phd a: well you s and and especially you did some some um , l um was a learning - based approach which learned from a big corpus of of trees . grad d: mm - hmm . professor f: right . phd a: and yes the it the chunk parser was a finite - state machine that um mark light originally w worked on in while he was in tuebingen professor f: right . phd a: and then somebody else in tuebingen picked that up . so it was done in tuebingen , yeah . definitely . professor f: but is that the kind of thing y it sounds like the kind of thing that you were thinking of . phd a: yeah i guess it 's similar . grad d: yeah . yeah that 's in this direction , yes professor f: what ? grad d: yeah , it 's in in this direction . grad b: the professor f: hmm . grad b: from michael strube , i 've heard very good stuff about the chunk parser that is done by forwiss , uh , which is in embassy doing the parsing . phd a: mm - hmm . grad b: so this is sort of came as a surprise to me that you know , embassy s { comment } is featuring a nice parser but it 's what i hear . one could also look at that and see whether there is some synergy possible . grad d: mm - hmm , yeah , it would be very interesting , mm - hmm . mmm , yeah . grad b: and they 're doing chunk parsing and it 's uh i i can give you the names of the people who do it there . but um . then there is of course more ways of parsing things . professor f: of course . but but uh given th the constraints , that you want it to be small and fast and so forth , my guess is you 're probably into some kind of chunk parsing . and uh i 'm not a big believer in this um statistical you know , cleaning up uh it that seems to me kind of a last resort if uh you ca n't do it any other way . uh but i dunno . grad d: hmm . professor f: it may i i may be that 's what you guys finally decide do . uh . and have you looked uh just again for context grad d: mm - hmm . professor f: there is this this one that they did at sri some years ago fastus ? grad d: um professor f: a grad d: yeah , i 've i 've looked at it but but it 's no not much uh information available . i found , professor f: ah ! grad d: but it 's also finite - state transducers , i thought . professor f: it is . yeah . i mean it 's it was pretty ambitious . grad d: and professor f: and of course it was english oriented , grad d: yeah , and and purely finite - state transducers are not so good for german since there 's um professor f: um w right . grad d: the word order is is uh not fixed professor f: yeah , i guess that 's the point is is all the morphology and stuff . and english is all th all word order . and it makes a lot more sense . grad d: yeah . professor f: and e yeah , ok . good point . so in in in german you 've got uh most of this done with grad d: mm - hmm . also it 's uh it 's um yes , uh the um choice between uh this processing and that processing and my template matcher . professor f: right . right . grad d: professor f: so what about um did y like morfix ? a a e y you 've got stemmers ? or is that something that grad d: um , yeah but it 's all in the in the lexicon . so it 's professor f: but did you have that ? grad d: yeah th the information is available . professor f: ok . i see . so , but grad d: so professor f: so y you just connect to the lexicon grad d: yeah professor f: and uh at least for german you have all all of the uh the stemming information . grad d: yeah , we can , oh yeah . we have knowledge bases from from verbmobil system we can use professor f: yep . grad d: and so . professor f: right . but it it it does n't look like i you 're using it . i did n't n see it being used in the current template uh parser . i i did n't see any uh of course we l actually only looked at the english . grad d: it um professor f: did we look at the german ? i do n't remember . grad d: yeah , but but it 's used for for stem forms . professor f: so w wha phd a: n well i think i think there 's some misunderstanding here professor f: i phd a: it 's morphix is not used on - line . grad d: oh , ok . phd a: s so the lexicon might be derived by morphix grad d: what ? phd a: but what what 's happening on - line is just um um a a retrieval from the lexicon which would give all the stemming information professor f: right . grad d: hmm . professor f: right . phd a: so it would be a full foreign lexicon . professor f: and that 's what you have . phd a: yep . grad d: yeah professor f: ok . grad b: we threw out all the forms . professor f: what uh i did n't reme grad b: we threw out all the forms professor f: huh ? grad b: because , you know , english , well professor f: oh ok , so it yeah , s s i thought i 'd grad d: mm - hmm . professor f: so in german then you actually do case matching and things like in the in the pattern matcher or not ? grad d: um not yet but it 's planned to do that . professor f: ok . cuz i r i did n't reme i did n't think i saw it . grad d: yeah professor f: have we looked at the german ? oh , i haven yeah that 's getting it from the lexicon is just fine . phd a: sure , right . grad d: oh yes . professor f: yeah , yeah , yeah . no problem with that . um yeah and here 's the case where the english and the german might really be significantly different . in terms of if you 're trying to build some fast parser and so forth and you really might wan na do it in a significantly different way . i do n't know . so you 've you guys have looked at this ? also ? in terms of you know , w if you 're doing this for english as well as german um do you think now that it would be this doing it similarly ? grad d: um yeah , it 's um i think it 's um yes , it 's it 's um possible to to do list processing . and maybe this is um more adequate for english and in german um set processing is used . professor f: set . grad d: maybe yeah . some extensions uh have to be made . for for a english version professor f: mmm . ok . interesting . not easy . grad b: well there 's m i 'm sure there 's gon na be more discussion on that after your talk . grad d: mm - hmm , grad b: we 're just gon na foreshadow what we saw that grad d: yeah . professor f: right . right . grad b: and um professor f: now actually , um are you guys free at five ? or do you have to go somewhere at five o ' clock tonight ? w in ten minutes ? grad d: ah phd a: uh uh i think we 're expect grad d: mmm . no . oder there was an talk ? phd a: yeah , there there 's the um practice talk . grad d: uh mmm , yeah . professor f: great . so you 're going to that . phd a: yeah , that that 's what we were planning to do . professor f: that 's good , because that will uh tell you a fair amount about the form of semantic construction grammar that we 're using . phd a: yeah . mm - hmm . professor f: so so i th i think that probably as good an introduction as you 'll get . grad d: ah . professor f: uh to the form of of uh conceptual grammar that that w we have in mind for this . grad d: mmm , ah . professor f: it wo n't talk particularly about how that relates to what uh robert was saying at the beginning . but let me give you a very short version of this . so we talked about the fact that there 're going to be a certain number of decisions that you want the knowledge modeler to make , that will be then fed to the function module , that does uh , route planning . it 's called the `` route planner `` or something . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: so there are these decisions . and then one half of this we talked about at little bit is how if you had the right information , if you knew something about what was said and about th the something about was the agent a tourist or a native or a business person or uh young or old , whatever . that information , and also about the uh , what we 're calling `` the entity `` , is it a castle , is it a bank ? is it a s town square , is it a statue ? whatever . so all that kind of information could be combined into decision networks and give you decisions . but the other half of the problem is how would you get that kind of information from the parsed input ? so , um so what you might try to do is just build more templates , saying uh we 're trying to build a templ you know build a template that w uh somehow would capture the fact that he wants to take a picture . grad d: mmm . professor f: ok ? and and we could you could do this . and it 's a small enough domain that probably you , you know grad d: mmm . professor f: ok . you could do this . but uh from our point of view this is also a research project and there are a couple of people not here for various reasons who are doing doctoral dissertations on this , phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and the idea that we 're really after is a very deep semantics based on cognitive linguistics and the notion that there are a relatively small number of primitive conceptual schemas that characterize a lot of activity . so a typical one in this formulation is a container . so this is a static thing . and the notion is that all sorts of physical situations are characterized in terms of containers . going in and out the portals and con grad d: mmm . professor f: ok . but also , importantly for lakoff and these guys is all sorts of metaphorical things are also characterized this way . you get in trouble and you know et cetera grad d: mmm . professor f: and so s so , what we 're really trying to do is to map from the discourse to the conceptual semantics level . and from there to the appropriate decisions . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: so another one of these primitive , what are called `` image schemas `` , is uh goal seeking . so this a notion of a source , path , goal , trajector , possibly obstacles . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and the idea is this is another conceptual primitive . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and that all sorts of things , particularly in the tourist domain , can be represented in terms of uh source , path and goal . so the idea would be could we build an analyser that would take an utterance and say `` aha ! th this utterance is talking about an attempt to reach a goal . the goal is this , the pers the , uh traveller is that , uh the sor w where we are at now is is this , they 've mentioned possible obstacles , et cetera . `` so th the and this is an again attempt to get very wide coverage . so if you can do this , then the notion would be that across a very large range of domains , you could use this deep conceptual basis as the interface . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor f: and then , uh the processing of that , both on the input end , recognizing that certain words in a language talk about containers or goals , et cetera , and on the output end , given this kind of information , you can then uh make decisions about what actions to take . provides , they claim , a very powerful , general notion of deep semantics . so that 's what we 're really doing . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and nancy is going to her talk is going to be not about using this in applications , but about modeling how children might learn this kind of uh deep semantic grammar . phd a: mm - hmm . yep , yep . and how do you envision um the the um this deep semantic to be worked with . would it be highly ambiguous if and then there would be another module that takes that um highly underspecified deep semantic construction and map it onto the current context to find out what the person really was talking about in that context . or or a professor f: well that 's that 's that 's where the belief - net comes in . so th the idea is , let 's take this business about going to the powder - tower . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: so part of what you 'll get out of this will be the fact tha w if it works right , ok , that this is an agent that wants to go to this place and that 's their goal phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and there will be additional situational information . phd a: oh , ok . professor f: uh , ok , phd a: th professor f: part of it comes from the ontology . the tower is this kind of object . phd a: mm - hmm . yeah , ok . professor f: part of it comes from the user model . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and the idea of the belief - net is it combines the information from the dialogue which comes across in this general way , phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: you know this is a this is a goal seeking behavior , along with specific information from the ontology about the kinds of objects involved phd a: yeah ok , yeah , yep yep yep yep professor f: and about the situation about `` is it raining ? `` i do n't know . whatever it is . and so that 's the belief - net that we 've laid out . phd a: mm - hmm . professor f: and so th the coupling to the situation comes in this model from , at th at th at the belief - net , combining evidence from the dialogue with the ontology with the situation . phd a: yeah . grad d: hmm . professor f: but nancy is n't gon na talk about that , phd a: yeah , oh yeah , i see , professor f: just about the um phd a: yeah yeah , really . grad b: first steps . professor f: right . the the construction grammar . grad b: and she 's gon na start in a minute . professor f: in a minute . grad d: ah , ok . professor f: ok . phd g: is it i in , then , your place , in five five - a ? phd a: alright .

efforts are in progress to complete and test the code , generate an english grammar like that used in the german system , and get the parser interface working . a 'wizard of oz ' style data collection experiment is in progress to model users ' underlying intentions when communicating with the dialogue component of a tourist domain gps .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: okay . right . conceptual design meeting . right . okay , so right well um from the last meeting i was trying to send you the minutes , but uh it did n't work out too well , so maybe in sort of um quick summary of the last uh meeting , i can quickly give you what we what we had . user interface: project manager: uh right , so wishing i had n't closed the damn right so we had the fact that we 're gon na have the the logo uh the company logo in its uh colour scheme incorporated onto the the device the remote device . we had uh made our decisions about uh made our decisions about uh the device itself , that it was gon na be simple to make it uh enable us to complete the project in time . we 're gon na have uh effectively two pages , a front page which had the uh features that the uh the customers most wanted , and then the uh the backup features on the second page so that it could uh meet the technical requirements . and the customers would n't have to look at them too often , only as and when required . so . so basically what decisions uh have we uh made ? uh have there been any uh changes ? industrial designer: i think we all have a presentation again , project manager: right . industrial designer: so if we go through those and then um marketing: yeah . project manager: three presentation , yeah . industrial designer: . shall i go first again ? project manager: so yeah , fine . marketing: okay . industrial designer: i see this a little more smoothly than the last one . project manager: industrial designer: okay right , let 's get started . um basically the uh for the um i 'll back actually . for the components design , um next step is basically the the way the remote 's gon na work is still the same idea as before . we still have the user interface which is all the buttons we 're gon na incorporate . then there is a chip and still the sender . so um yes including the power s supply as well . um i 'll go on to my findings in each of these areas . uh first in the power supply , we have the option of just the standard battery , um . there 's a dynamo . any of you think of kind of like the the old torches which you wind up um . there 's a kinetic option , which if any of you 've seen those new watches which you kind of you power up by waving around , um it just requires a small amount of movement which would mean the batteries would n't have to be replaced . um that 's one option , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but i think that was gon na cost a little more . and then there 's solar cells . um as a final option . for the buttons , we have um an integrated push button , which is oh just to say all all these are um supplied by real reaction . so i guess for the ease of for quickness and ease we should take them from at least like one of these options . project manager: okay . industrial designer: um so for the buttons there 's an integrated push button , which i guess is just the same as the standard ones . this says it 's uh similar to uh the button on the mouse for a normal for like uh like modern computer . um there 's a scroll wheel which is you know the new mouse has just got like the centre section which you can scroll up and down , which may be for the volume . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: you could do do that . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um one issue for the buttons is , depending on which material we use , if we use rubber buttons then it requires a rubber case , so we have to take that into consideration . um moving on to the printed s project manager: what would be the cost do do we know ? industrial designer: um that 's on the next project manager: industrial designer: i th i think the there was n't too much difference in the cost , that that related to the actual buttons , but it does affect the printed circuit board . um which is the next section . basically for the circuit board which is the middle , it 's just see it down there the chips like the like the workings of the actual um of the remote . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: the firm supplies a simple , a regular and an advanced um circuit board . and there 's different prices according to each . so if we 've got the scroll wheel for one of the buttons , that would require a slightly more advanced circuit board than if we just had a standard um push button . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um one final thing we came up with was some information on the speech recognition . there 's a small unit available through the company um which obviously would be an extra cost , but it would n't affect the size of the remote too much . um and i guess that would require a more advanced circuit board , so there is an extra price in that sense . there is th sorry an extra cost in that sense . um going to my personal preferences , um i thought possibly for power we could use kinetic um which is the idea of the watches um that you move you move the remote around to power it up . and this would avoid batteries running out , having to replace batteries and such like . um for the buttons , i thought we 'd probably get away with just having the standard um push buttons rather than the scroll wheel . um and for the circuit board , again depends on which features we want in the actual in the remote . so if we wanted the scroll wheel and wanted the voice recognition , um then we 'd have to get a a more costly circuit board . and that 's it . marketing: 'kay . project manager: with the printed circuit boards you were going for the user interface: thanks . industrial designer: um i it kind of depends um if we 're gon na have the speech recognition , we 'd have to probably get an advanced one . i 'm guessing . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh but i do n't know , so that is something i 'll have to look into . project manager: but are we going f r right . industrial designer: um that 's a that 's a decision for all of us . um . project manager: so are we able to make that decision now in a sense that this is the point at which we 're discussing that issue , industrial designer: yeah yeah . we decide . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so would it not be best to rather than i mean one way is to do each of the presentations and then make decisions going back to the various presentations as they were . the other way would be to do the presentation marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then make the decision at that point in time . industrial designer: um . maybe w user interface: yeah , that 's probably a better one , to discuss it straight away . project manager: 'cause at that point then you 've got the details up there , so if we wanted to know for instance that the scroll wheel required the regular and what required advance . then if we were able to see that down then we could make the decision at that point in time industrial designer: um . project manager: and then that would be the end of that issue . does that make sense ? industrial designer: yes . user interface: um i have a lot of the information there . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: it might not be very clear . industrial designer: is there user interface: unless you want to plug it back in to yours . industrial designer: um . we could do , yeah . um yeah we should . project manager: industrial designer: as i say it only specified that we need a more advanced circuit board for the scroll wheel , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it did n't the voice recognition came as a separate piece of information . um . project manager: no the scroll wheel required the regular , so the industrial designer: yeah if if you down um . it 's just this bit at the bottom which i 've highlighted , project manager: hmm . industrial designer: but the scroll wheel requires a mini m minimally a regular chip , project manager: industrial designer: which is in the higher price range . project manager: okay . the display requires an advanced chip user interface: i think the scroll wheel um project manager: the display requires an advanced chip which in turn is more expense . industrial designer: also the display 's for something else which we decided against . um but that bit project manager: okay . industrial designer: and note that the push button just requires a simple chip , so that would keep the price down . project manager: down . user interface: yeah , and if we 're going for sleek and sexy , i think a scroll wheel is maybe a bit kinda bulky ? marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i i 've got um pictures well i 've seen pictures with it kind of sticking off the side of it , project manager: right . okay . user interface: and they do n't really look great . industrial designer: 'kay . so maybe just a simple push button , and that would cut costs on the project manager: so . so we 're going for p okay . so is um marketing: so are we going for the w are we going for the simple one , are we ? user interface: yeah , a simple pushbuttons . project manager: simple push button . marketing: okay . industrial designer: did everyone get this on the speech recognition ? the um it was basically what we said before , the idea that you record in a set message , and then it picks up that message um and replies to you . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so it is basically the concept we discussed before . um but then we do n't know for sure whether it would require a more complicated circuit board . marketing: industrial designer: i 'm guessing it would , but got like the definite information . maybe we should go on what we 're certain of rather than project manager: so if we go for the simple push button , so effectively we 're going for the simple printed circuit board are we ? or are we going for the regular ? industrial designer: um if it 's just the push button then it just needs the simple circuit board . project manager: mm-mm . but is there any other i mean okay , that 's true for the for for that element , but we have to take all el elements into consideration . and so if there is one element that requires the more expensive one , or say the regular one , or the more advanced , then that would have to be the same for all of them . s marketing: mm . user interface: hmm . but marketing: i suppose we need we need to find out what circuit board that requires , maybe before we m make a decision . project manager: right . user interface: but the way that i interpret that um it does n't seem to send out a signal to the telly , it just it 's like a parrot just rep reply replying to your message . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: oh yeah , i suppose so , yeah . industrial designer: so maybe that would be something separate , yeah . user interface: so i do n't think it would effect our circuit board . project manager: no . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: okay , so we 'd have a simple circuit board project manager: industrial designer: and that would be an extra that would be in addition to it . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: oh that makes sense . user interface: and i do n't think you could really perform any of the remote functions with it . marketing: yeah . user interface: 'cause the example that they 've given there is good morning coffee machine , good morning jo . project manager: mm-mm . user interface: it might be useful to say like where are you remote . here i am , jo . industrial designer: okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: user interface: but i think that 's maybe as far as that one could go ? project manager: okay . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah that makes sense , so we 'd stick with the simple circuit board and then think of the speech recognition as an extra an extra possibility . user interface: yeah , just as a fun way to find it . project manager: industrial designer: okay . um . project manager: simple circuit board . simple push button . okay . w w kinetic . user interface: and it says that project manager: you were you were wanting to go for the kinetic power supply . user interface: i think it said the cost of that is n't too much . industrial designer: um yeah i i thought so just for just for ease of not having to replace the batteries . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um . project manager: and how does it get uh charged up ? industrial designer: it 's um i think it works on the basis they have some kind of ball bearings inside . it 's um it 's some on watches which you you kind of you shake to power it up . somehow the mechanism inside powers up through movement . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so you 'd you 'd move the remote around a little bit and then that powers it up to use it . project manager: okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: so the speech recognition was are we going for speech recognition ? no ? 'cause that required the advanced user interface: um i think it would be helpful to find it , but i do n't think it 'd um marketing: just industrial designer: uh yeah i think did we decide it did n't affect the circuit board , it just affected user interface: yeah , i think so . marketing: just just for the call and find thing . industrial designer: it was just project manager: i had speech recognition requires advanced req require industrial designer: oh no th that 's what that 's what i thought , but maybe maybe it does n't . project manager: oh . industrial designer: um i think i might have got that wrong . project manager: so okay . marketing: 'cause it 's s it 's separate is n't it , project manager: speech recognition you reckon then is s simple . marketing: it 's not part of the industrial designer: it 's it 's just an addition thing it 's um yeah . project manager: and so we would want it in as an extra because it does n't appear to cost too much . would that be industrial designer: 'kay . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: 'kay shall i pass on to you now ? user interface: i think project manager: in fact , it would n't really cost anymore , would it ? user interface: i 'll just just check what it said . actually i do n't think it really says anything about the cost , but it says that it 's already in the coffee machines , so like it 's already kind of marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i assume it would cost extra , but maybe we maybe we 'll find out how much that does cost and have to decide slightly later . project manager: and then have to change all change everything at the last minute . user interface: project manager: okay . s user interface: um . oh , that was quick . um okay , so very brief presentation , um . from looking at the remotes that are out there at the minute , none of them are particularly um sleek and sexy . um i have n't actually got the examples of the scroll button there , um but there 's some curved cases that you can see , uh a range of sizes uh . all of them have a lot of buttons there um they seem to just have the rubber buttons . does that move it ? project manager: sorry ? user interface: it just seems to be skipping on without us doing anything . project manager: yeah , i 've found that try and get it back . industrial designer: if you right click and then go onto a previous slide . user interface: ah it 's alright . industrial designer: okay , right . user interface: um . there was n't much more to say about that , just rambling . um some of the uh remotes that i looked at , one of the models da did actually have voice recognition where you could um where it was connected to the remote control functions . and uh it was quite uh a swish model , where it can control uh four devices , tv , cable , satellite , video , d_v_d_ , audio . um so that 's a bit of competition there . so i mean maybe it 's better not to try and compete with that sort of thing and just to market it as a completely different um like different viewpoint as a kind of finding your lost control industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: rather than trying to compete with the functions . um the scroll buttons , as you 've already mentioned , um there 's examples of those , but they do n't look as sleek as other models . and there 's no real advantage and because it impacts on other on the materials and the price it 's not great . industrial designer: on the price , yeah . project manager: so you were saying the scroll buttons user interface: um yeah . th there was a specialist type of remote that we could think about , um . there was children 's remote , where um they just had a very limited range of buttons and they were b uh bright and colourful and um you you could program them so that they could only look at certain channels . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: 'kay . user interface: um but i do n't know if that 's really in our field ? industrial designer: i guess i guess we 're going for the biggest market , maybe not , user interface: but that 's something that 's out there . industrial designer: but was it was it specified that we went for the biggest ? project manager: well we 're to go for the international market rather than a local market but that that would n't necessarily preclude user interface: hmm . project manager: the one thing that you can often do with products is you can uh make small modifications . so you have your basic model which you would sell at whatever , and then you could have additional features in you know like a you 'd have model one , model two and model three , and therefore you can sub-divide your market up . but that 's really where your field is . user interface: marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: industrial designer: so maybe the children 's remote should be like a a next step , but maybe i dunno for ours , maybe we should project manager: anyway you could add on for an extra package , but on this basic one i 'm reckoning that we 're going for the basic model to be discussed here and that uh you would have for future reference the possibility of adding in extra features at extra cost to take care of specialist market segments . user interface: hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: okay . project manager: is that user interface: right well that 's something that we can be aware of . project manager: so so what are we deciding to do here ? user interface: um . i think because there 's already um very good voice recognition technology out there , and because ours might not cover the same functions that the leading brands do , it might be a good idea to market it as a um finder function . project manager: right . mm-hmm . uh the fi yeah , the finder function rather than as a speech function to find your remote . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so you also said for going for the international market um that some some maybe older people might not like the speech recognition . s s so um user interface: oh yeah . different languages might not be compatible . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . it w it would make it quite complicated , project manager: hmm . industrial designer: where um ours at least keeps it fairly simple and then the user interface: hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , 'cause i think you program um this one yourself , like to say like whatever you want to your question . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah and ours is quite a cheap device , so i do n't know how much we 'll be able to put into it . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so you 'd have a finder feature rather than a voice recognition feature . marketing: yeah . user interface: hmm . project manager: and you were talking user interface: maybe unless something else comes up . project manager: mm . and you were talking about scroll buttons ? user interface: um yeah i think um i think we 've decided that it 's gon na increase the cost project manager: okay . user interface: and give no real kinda extra benefit project manager: b industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and it 's gon na decrease from the sleekness of it . project manager: alright , so we 're just gon na have the the rubber buttons , was that right ? industrial designer: yes yes . user interface: hmm um and just to be aware that there are kind of specialist functions and specialist remotes but we probably do n't want to focus on those like such as the children 's remote . project manager: okay . so not to be focused on . user interface: yeah . um there was a mention just as kind of a warning about button design . um just to avoid ambiguity . so it gave the example of say your volume buttons for up and down , they might both have a v_ on for volume , um let 's think how they did this . project manager: good in in flip it round in ninety degree a hundred and eighty degrees and have it up and down . user interface: i 'm just gon na check so i do this right . project manager: an upside-down v_ . so that would show that volume was going up , whereas the one underneath would see the volume going down . user interface: um . what did they say ? um i think the thing was that if you decide to do this , to have triangular buttons , um somebody might look at this one and say oh well this triangular button is pointing up , and that 's the first thing that they see project manager: right . user interface: actually that ca n't be right , can it ? oh well , no , they might see yeah , they might see this pointing down and think right that 's gon na turn the volume down , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: whereas the actual button 's pointing up , so the function is to turn the button up . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so , be careful what you put on the buttons industrial designer: so maybe we could have like user interface: and be careful of the shape that you make them , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because they might be kind of two um contradicting kind of shapes . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah i i know what you mean . so maybe we could have volume written on the side and then up and down on the on the buttons themselves . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: you could have volume up and volume industrial designer: possible . project manager: volume up , down and like that . industrial designer: mm . project manager: and 'cause the idea was to have limited um it was to have sizable amount of information on it . limited number of buttons . industrial designer: yeah yeah . project manager: 'cause it was sixteen buttons , was n't it that were industrial designer: yeah . yeah we got it down to not too many . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: um and i think that 's all i had to say for that . marketing: okay . user interface: um so what was the decision on the um design of the volume button ? industrial designer: um are we are we gon na go through the design of all the buttons at the moment , or are we gon na t marketing: i 've i 've got some things to say about possible design things from trend watching . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , maybe we should see yours first . user interface: oh okay . marketing: cool . right , um i 've been looking at some trends in in sort of basically fashion on top of doing the um research into the remote control market the the one that 's the one i talked about last time , that we 'd sort of asked people about remote controls and what what was good about them , what was bad , what they used . and we 've also been looking at sort of fa sort of fashions and what people are wanting out of consumer goods at the moment . so we 've had people in paris and milan watching the uh fashion trends . industrial designer: project manager: you know yourself . marketing: so user interface: marketing: so just to summarise the most important things which came out of the remote control market investigation . the most important thing was that the thing sort of look and felt fancy rather than just functional . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: and second , there should be some technological innovation . and then third and l less important than the other two , there should be an ease of use as well . and apparently , the fashion trends are that people want sort of clothes and shoes and things with a fruit and vegetables theme . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um but um the feel of the material should be spongy , industrial designer: marketing: which is contrary to last year , apparently . i presume it must have been not not spongy last year . project manager: user interface: marketing: so we need to emphasise the fancy design with on on our remote control above all else . and then also try and add in technological informat innovation which could be our sort of find the thing with a hand clap . and then we need to ma sort of make it easy to use that 's as a third priority , so perhaps um fewer fewer buttons and functions as we 've as we 've discussed . user interface: marketing: and then maybe find a way to incorporate these trends so that we sort of capture people 's imaginations . so maybe we could make the buttons shaped like fruit and veg , or the the buttons could be spongy , uh somehow . maybe we could make them out of rubber rather than sort of hard plastic . and then sort of even wackier than that , we could maybe have a fruit or vegetable shaped remote , say in the shape of a banana or something like that . right , so that 'll be it . user interface: marketing: maybe a banana or courgette or something . project manager: marketing: how how far we actually want to go along and sort of follow the trends , do we think the trends are particularly important for this type of gadget , or or you know , do they not matter that much ? user interface: i think if you start making the buttons fruit shaped , it might make it more complicated to use . project manager: well you were just talking about you 've got to be careful how you shape your buttons , 'cause you 're can mis-direct people . and i would 've thought the functionality 'cause the people get cheesed off by things by having to read instructions et cetera , so . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: .. . user interface: maybe just one button , say the standby button is quite kinda separate from all the other functions . maybe that could be a little apple . marketing: maybe yeah . project manager: okay . now ? yeah . user interface: and then that would n't get in the way of like kinda one to nine , industrial designer: user interface: and it would n't confuse the numbers . project manager: stand-by button . no th that that incorporates the trend whilst at the same time not confusing people , if you 're looking for functionality . industrial designer: marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: well i dunno i i guess maybe fruit and vegetables may be popular at the moment , but as we know how fickle the fashion markets are , project manager: but what are they gon na be next yeah . what are they gon na be next year . industrial designer: maybe marketing: yeah yeah . user interface: hmm . s project manager: but but th but okay but you you can incorporate the tr if y if you change all the buttons then you 've got the problem that this year 's fruit and veg , next year 's uh i was gon na say animals or elephants or w whatever . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah , project manager: that means you 're constantly changing your production schedule , marketing: i 'm not project manager: and you 've got ta make different moulds and everything else , marketing: yeah . project manager: so that 's not a good idea i would i would suggest . marketing: i 'm not i 'm not sure what what what the sort of timescale we 're thinking of selling the product over is . i do n't know . industrial designer: i mean it just seems realistic that the remote control market is n't the kind of thing which takes in those kinds of fashion trends . marketing: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: to something which is maybe more universal . project manager: well user interface: but i suppose as long as it 's quite a subtle design , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: um even if the design kind of changes , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: we c maybe can imply a fruit shape possibly . project manager: ah d d but if marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: maybe the spongy feel is something we could think about , um . project manager: mm-hmm . well . yep . industrial designer: maybe still with a rubber design we could project manager: was that in the sort of fashion sense that this or was the spongy feel was that uh sort of fashion ? it was , was n't it ? marketing: yeah . project manager: so the user interface: it seems like you 're gon na have rubber cases , as well as buttons . marketing: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: um . user interface: and that you can make them curved or double-curved and that would be the kind of sleek and sexy look . industrial designer: oh yeah yeah one of the things were if you had rubber buttons then you had to have a rubber case . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um oh no no no user interface: oh right , that fits , does n't it ? industrial designer: sorry it 's if you use the uh rubber double curved case then you must use rubber buttons . that 's the way round . if you have the rubber case then you have to have the rubber buttons to go with it . which makes sense . user interface: right . project manager: rubber buttons require rubber case . industrial designer: um . user interface: and that would fit in with what we want , would n't it , for the spongy feel , to have everything rubber . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh so , yeah . the m the main problem is how f how frequently do the fashions change ? 'cause in essence in the production you want things to stay you want to basically mint them out marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause if you 've got fashion changes and that you 're incorporating , then it means that your stock is um is last year 's stock marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and therefore you 're selling it or having to sell it at a discounted rate which you would n't want to do . whereas if you kept the product the same but you could have a difference from year to year , uh it seems to me that you could incorporate a fashion statement if you like , rather than changing the whole kit and caboodle . marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: you 're just changing one aspect like like the standby button or something like that , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: and especially 'cause then you could make it something that industrial designer: i suppose we maybe are limited in the fact that we still have to put the logo on the actual marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: well , you might be limited in space , that yes . industrial designer: would or not . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: well you two are obviously gon na find that out fairly quickly when you move over to your kit modelling stage as to uh how much pl how much how much how pliable is plasticine . user interface: hmm . industrial designer: yes yes . user interface: industrial designer: maybe we could think of the the cases like changing with the fashions project manager: industrial designer: like the nokia phones where you could take the casing off the outside . but whether that would be too much to incorporate in production , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: whether that would just increase the costs , project manager: hmm . industrial designer: make it more complicated . project manager: so you 're talking there about uh changing changing the casing . marketing: that 's possibly it . industrial designer: yeah the a the actual the sort of the look from the outside , so where the buttons would stay the same , and the general function of the remote would stay the same , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but you could change the the way it looked . user interface: yeah and then you could have oh but you still would have to have the logo on every new case , industrial designer: yeah , that 's true . user interface: but you could have like pink cases for girls and red ones and things like that . project manager: yeah you you could do a colour change , so therefore you would yeah yeah i mean that 's effectively what they did with the with the mobile phones , was to have some in blue , some in red , some in rather than all in black industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: or , you know , which four do you want , as long as it 's black ? user interface: hmm . project manager: but uh so industrial designer: so it is a possibility , um . user interface: but we are supposed to use the um company colour scheme , are n't we ? project manager: yes oh that 's true user interface: we have n't really seen that yet industrial designer: oh okay yes project manager: uh that might no marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that is user interface: it might and we might be able to do both but it might clash with certain things . project manager: well not necessarily , because you could have your company uh we 're we 're meant to be finishing up . you could have your company badge and logo . i mean a lot of um computers for instance like like on the one you 've got there , it actually has a sort of um stick on badge marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so what you would al all you would really need , whether it , you know , whether the casing be w any colour , could be any colour , but that badge would then have to stick out on top of it so that uh in a sense , with a with a logo like that , because it 's on a white background , the only colour that it might not stick out so well on would be a white casing . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause you you know you 're sort of you 're badging it . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and in fact a lot of companies get somebody else to make them and literally just badge them themselves with their own uh badge over the top . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: and in fact the way they 've got that there even if you had that on a white , which is the predominant colour of the uh the windows badge , you 'd still be able to see it clearly from you know a white casing uh product . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: so . industrial designer: and whether we 'd have a big enough market to have this kind of like secondary market of selling the cases might be something to consider . user interface: hmm . project manager: user interface: well if it 's for young people , um like the phone generation , that sort of thing 'd probably go down well , marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and the market research has been on that side of things , has n't it ? marketing: yeah , i mean it 's people say that it 's the look , they want the fancy looking thing but i 'm yeah . i 'm not convinced on whether having changeable covers would be something that people would buy into . i think with the mobiles , it 's the , you know it 's a communication device , people see you with it all about and industrial designer: yeah i suppose , user interface: industrial designer: where you you keep the remote hidden under the sofa most of the time . marketing: i if it project manager: it 's uh in in the house , is n't it , i suppose . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay , so if we just went for one colour of a rubber case marketing: i think project manager: so do n't change case . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: change case colour . and we 're sort of saying no to that . user interface: did we decide on the rubber case ? the spongy feel , or did we think that that might go as a trend ? marketing: well , it was different last year . the trend was different last year apparently . it was not not spongy feel . but i do n't know whether the trend will change . i do n't know whether it 's one of those things that like sort of having all fruit shaped keys , that that probably would go out of fashion very quickly , project manager: yeah . marketing: whereas just the fact that it was a rubber case is probably less less of something that y you 're gon na end up hating in a year , you know . industrial designer: yeah , less likely to project manager: sounds reasonable . if you 're going for fashion trends like that they 'll need t you 'd have to have interchangeable cases industrial designer: so then th th that would project manager: so that you could industrial designer: yeah . project manager: or 'cause otherwise someone 's gon na have to buy a complete new remote rather than just a case . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: it seems to make sense that we we 'd just maybe stick with the standard rubber case , marketing: mm . industrial designer: and then have the standard rubber buttons as well . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . industrial designer: um . user interface: uh we have n't really talked about uh the curvature of the case . there 's flat , marketing: user interface: there 's single-curved and there 's double-curved . industrial designer: um . mayb user interface: i 'm not exactly sure what these things look like . industrial designer: maybe curves give it like the slightly more aesthetic feel ? but the double curve would n't require us to perform miracles with the plasticine . user interface: marketing: project manager: user interface: well it says that marketing: when you say d when you say double-curved , what what exactly does that mean ? user interface: i 'm not exactly sure . um i 'll show you the remotes that i 've got . marketing: okay . user interface: see how uh let 's just get that bigger . see how uh the one oh i 'm not plugged in , am i ? marketing: no you 're not connected to me anymore . industrial designer: user interface: that does n't help . project manager: one one thing to cons user interface: shall i just turn it round for time ? project manager: one thing to consider is that in some ways you want um by having a fairly standard case it means they can all fit together on top of each other marketing: that should come up . project manager: therefore for storage purposes in shops and the like and it makes it easier that you can if you can store them up on top of each other . marketing: mm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: whereas if you do um fancy things with it , you then got ta put it in a ca a a packaging box that that does that . and the cost of packaging could be quite important vis-a-vis the total cost of the product . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so shall we go through quickly and just work out what we 've decide on , if we have to kind of project manager: so but marketing: yeah . user interface: um it 's not very clear up there , project manager: no . user interface: but you can see some of them have got kind of bulges , like the second one and the end one uh where there 's a curve there . project manager: mm yep . marketing: right . user interface: i 'm not exactl i do n't know if a double curve is maybe it comes up slightly , or ? marketing: that 's what i was trying to work out . user interface: but um it is a kinda sleeker look if you 've got curves in there . project manager: oh right . s so do you wan na go for curves , more curves ? marketing: shall we industrial designer: project manager: we 're meant to be f we 're meant to be finishing this meeting in about a minute or so . user interface: definitely a single , maybe a double . industrial designer: 'kay , so shall we quickly marketing: yeah . user interface: shall we go for single curve , just to compromise ? industrial designer: we 'll go for single curve , yeah . project manager: okay , industrial designer: single curve . user interface: marketing: okay . project manager: curved or double curved ? so it 's single curved . industrial designer: so did we did we decide on the kinetic power supply ? the one you move around ? user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah i think that think that 's a good idea . project manager: yep . industrial designer: okay . um user interface: and the rubber push buttons , rubber case . marketing: rubber rubber buttons and case . user interface: um and we do n't really know much about the colour scheme or logo yet do we , industrial designer: oh we ca user interface: but possibly a sticker . industrial designer: yeah yeah , we 'll still have the are we gon na go for the simple circuit board just to keep the cost down ? i th i think we can by by not having anything too complicated . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah and and the voice recognition , we can use that ca n't we , just to find it . without affecting the circuit board . project manager: yes . yep . industrial designer: um . marketing: yeah yeah . industrial designer: and see we could always decide against it if something comes up that 's just something to that we seemed to leave out . marketing: okay . and then are we going for sort of one button shaped like a fruit . or veg . user interface: yeah that sounds like it would n't do too much harm in a couple of years . uh what sort of shape do we want ? project manager: so we 've got spongy feel buttons as well , have we ? marketing: do n't know , maybe just project manager: as well as or w or was that marketing: yeah . that 's ru rubber buttons , yeah . project manager: so it 's rubber buttons , industrial designer: yeah , it was just project manager: so it 's not really spongy feel buttons , it 's just rubber buttons . with a rubber case right ? industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , so it 's not too wacky . marketing: reasonably spongy i guess , yeah . project manager: and the standby button is gon na be different . marketing: yeah okay . user interface: um i think an apple would be a good recognisable shape . if you start getting into kinda aubergines and things , it gets a bit weird . marketing: project manager: okay so what what shape are we making the standby button ? marketing: yeah . apple ? project manager: a apple . user interface: vote ? project manager: oh oh sorry ? industrial designer: marketing: yeah . user interface: shall we vote on it ? industrial designer: we will go for the a a a apples apples . marketing: yeah . user interface: anyone got any suggestions ? marketing: apple apple a a qu quite a big one , as well . project manager: user interface: okay . ah . marketing: a big apple . uh user interface: well it could be red . project manager: marketing: could be a red apple , yeah . either , do n't mind . project manager: a red apple ? is it ? user interface: yeah 'cause we wan na incorporate a bit of colour if we can , once we find out um industrial designer: okay . and then we 're gon na are you gon na work on keeping the button design quite simple ? just like the just working out what we 're gon na do for the next time . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um . user interface: yeah . yeah that seems pretty straight forward . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: 'cause most of them will just be kind of mainly circular or like very plain . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: mm-hmm . okay . project manager: sorry what was that last thing again there ? user interface: uh just to keep the shape of the buttons simple . project manager: right much option on that . i thought you were going for a single curve and user interface: ah just the uh shape of the buttons . project manager: alright . industrial designer: and j yeah , just keeping the sort of the labelling them labelling of them fairly simple as well . fairly sort of self explanatory . user interface: yeah . project manager: right , so shape of buttons simple . okay . so that 's that , i guess . we should now go away and get these things sorted out . i guess you two are on plasticine duty or whatever . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: okay . project manager: okay , so um . industrial designer: is that the end ? okay . marketing: looks like it . project manager: okay .

the project manager gave a brief review of the last meeting . after the industrial designer 's presentation about the components of the remote and team 's discussion about it , the team agreed that the kinetic power supply , simple push buttons and a simple circuit board and a finder feature are better choices for the remote . then , the team discussed the design of the remote . they made the decision that standard rubber case and rubber buttons and a single curve are better choices for the remote , and the shape of buttons should be simple .

what did the group discuss about components of the remote control and what is the conclusion of the discussion ? </s> project manager: okay . right . conceptual design meeting . right . okay , so right well um from the last meeting i was trying to send you the minutes , but uh it did n't work out too well , so maybe in sort of um quick summary of the last uh meeting , i can quickly give you what we what we had . user interface: project manager: uh right , so wishing i had n't closed the damn right so we had the fact that we 're gon na have the the logo uh the company logo in its uh colour scheme incorporated onto the the device the remote device . we had uh made our decisions about uh made our decisions about uh the device itself , that it was gon na be simple to make it uh enable us to complete the project in time . we 're gon na have uh effectively two pages , a front page which had the uh features that the uh the customers most wanted , and then the uh the backup features on the second page so that it could uh meet the technical requirements . and the customers would n't have to look at them too often , only as and when required . so . so basically what decisions uh have we uh made ? uh have there been any uh changes ? industrial designer: i think we all have a presentation again , project manager: right . industrial designer: so if we go through those and then um marketing: yeah . project manager: three presentation , yeah . industrial designer: . shall i go first again ? project manager: so yeah , fine . marketing: okay . industrial designer: i see this a little more smoothly than the last one . project manager: industrial designer: okay right , let 's get started . um basically the uh for the um i 'll back actually . for the components design , um next step is basically the the way the remote 's gon na work is still the same idea as before . we still have the user interface which is all the buttons we 're gon na incorporate . then there is a chip and still the sender . so um yes including the power s supply as well . um i 'll go on to my findings in each of these areas . uh first in the power supply , we have the option of just the standard battery , um . there 's a dynamo . any of you think of kind of like the the old torches which you wind up um . there 's a kinetic option , which if any of you 've seen those new watches which you kind of you power up by waving around , um it just requires a small amount of movement which would mean the batteries would n't have to be replaced . um that 's one option , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but i think that was gon na cost a little more . and then there 's solar cells . um as a final option . for the buttons , we have um an integrated push button , which is oh just to say all all these are um supplied by real reaction . so i guess for the ease of for quickness and ease we should take them from at least like one of these options . project manager: okay . industrial designer: um so for the buttons there 's an integrated push button , which i guess is just the same as the standard ones . this says it 's uh similar to uh the button on the mouse for a normal for like uh like modern computer . um there 's a scroll wheel which is you know the new mouse has just got like the centre section which you can scroll up and down , which may be for the volume . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: you could do do that . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um one issue for the buttons is , depending on which material we use , if we use rubber buttons then it requires a rubber case , so we have to take that into consideration . um moving on to the printed s project manager: what would be the cost do do we know ? industrial designer: um that 's on the next project manager: industrial designer: i th i think the there was n't too much difference in the cost , that that related to the actual buttons , but it does affect the printed circuit board . um which is the next section . basically for the circuit board which is the middle , it 's just see it down there the chips like the like the workings of the actual um of the remote . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: the firm supplies a simple , a regular and an advanced um circuit board . and there 's different prices according to each . so if we 've got the scroll wheel for one of the buttons , that would require a slightly more advanced circuit board than if we just had a standard um push button . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um one final thing we came up with was some information on the speech recognition . there 's a small unit available through the company um which obviously would be an extra cost , but it would n't affect the size of the remote too much . um and i guess that would require a more advanced circuit board , so there is an extra price in that sense . there is th sorry an extra cost in that sense . um going to my personal preferences , um i thought possibly for power we could use kinetic um which is the idea of the watches um that you move you move the remote around to power it up . and this would avoid batteries running out , having to replace batteries and such like . um for the buttons , i thought we 'd probably get away with just having the standard um push buttons rather than the scroll wheel . um and for the circuit board , again depends on which features we want in the actual in the remote . so if we wanted the scroll wheel and wanted the voice recognition , um then we 'd have to get a a more costly circuit board . and that 's it . marketing: 'kay . project manager: with the printed circuit boards you were going for the user interface: thanks . industrial designer: um i it kind of depends um if we 're gon na have the speech recognition , we 'd have to probably get an advanced one . i 'm guessing . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh but i do n't know , so that is something i 'll have to look into . project manager: but are we going f r right . industrial designer: um that 's a that 's a decision for all of us . um . project manager: so are we able to make that decision now in a sense that this is the point at which we 're discussing that issue , industrial designer: yeah yeah . we decide . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so would it not be best to rather than i mean one way is to do each of the presentations and then make decisions going back to the various presentations as they were . the other way would be to do the presentation marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then make the decision at that point in time . industrial designer: um . maybe w user interface: yeah , that 's probably a better one , to discuss it straight away . project manager: 'cause at that point then you 've got the details up there , so if we wanted to know for instance that the scroll wheel required the regular and what required advance . then if we were able to see that down then we could make the decision at that point in time industrial designer: um . project manager: and then that would be the end of that issue . does that make sense ? industrial designer: yes . user interface: um i have a lot of the information there . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: it might not be very clear . industrial designer: is there user interface: unless you want to plug it back in to yours . industrial designer: um . we could do , yeah . um yeah we should . project manager: industrial designer: as i say it only specified that we need a more advanced circuit board for the scroll wheel , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it did n't the voice recognition came as a separate piece of information . um . project manager: no the scroll wheel required the regular , so the industrial designer: yeah if if you down um . it 's just this bit at the bottom which i 've highlighted , project manager: hmm . industrial designer: but the scroll wheel requires a mini m minimally a regular chip , project manager: industrial designer: which is in the higher price range . project manager: okay . the display requires an advanced chip user interface: i think the scroll wheel um project manager: the display requires an advanced chip which in turn is more expense . industrial designer: also the display 's for something else which we decided against . um but that bit project manager: okay . industrial designer: and note that the push button just requires a simple chip , so that would keep the price down . project manager: down . user interface: yeah , and if we 're going for sleek and sexy , i think a scroll wheel is maybe a bit kinda bulky ? marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i i 've got um pictures well i 've seen pictures with it kind of sticking off the side of it , project manager: right . okay . user interface: and they do n't really look great . industrial designer: 'kay . so maybe just a simple push button , and that would cut costs on the project manager: so . so we 're going for p okay . so is um marketing: so are we going for the w are we going for the simple one , are we ? user interface: yeah , a simple pushbuttons . project manager: simple push button . marketing: okay . industrial designer: did everyone get this on the speech recognition ? the um it was basically what we said before , the idea that you record in a set message , and then it picks up that message um and replies to you . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so it is basically the concept we discussed before . um but then we do n't know for sure whether it would require a more complicated circuit board . marketing: industrial designer: i 'm guessing it would , but got like the definite information . maybe we should go on what we 're certain of rather than project manager: so if we go for the simple push button , so effectively we 're going for the simple printed circuit board are we ? or are we going for the regular ? industrial designer: um if it 's just the push button then it just needs the simple circuit board . project manager: mm-mm . but is there any other i mean okay , that 's true for the for for that element , but we have to take all el elements into consideration . and so if there is one element that requires the more expensive one , or say the regular one , or the more advanced , then that would have to be the same for all of them . s marketing: mm . user interface: hmm . but marketing: i suppose we need we need to find out what circuit board that requires , maybe before we m make a decision . project manager: right . user interface: but the way that i interpret that um it does n't seem to send out a signal to the telly , it just it 's like a parrot just rep reply replying to your message . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: oh yeah , i suppose so , yeah . industrial designer: so maybe that would be something separate , yeah . user interface: so i do n't think it would effect our circuit board . project manager: no . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: okay , so we 'd have a simple circuit board project manager: industrial designer: and that would be an extra that would be in addition to it . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: oh that makes sense . user interface: and i do n't think you could really perform any of the remote functions with it . marketing: yeah . user interface: 'cause the example that they 've given there is good morning coffee machine , good morning jo . project manager: mm-mm . user interface: it might be useful to say like where are you remote . here i am , jo . industrial designer: okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: user interface: but i think that 's maybe as far as that one could go ? project manager: okay . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah that makes sense , so we 'd stick with the simple circuit board and then think of the speech recognition as an extra an extra possibility . user interface: yeah , just as a fun way to find it . project manager: industrial designer: okay . um . project manager: simple circuit board . simple push button . okay . w w kinetic . user interface: and it says that project manager: you were you were wanting to go for the kinetic power supply . user interface: i think it said the cost of that is n't too much . industrial designer: um yeah i i thought so just for just for ease of not having to replace the batteries . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um . project manager: and how does it get uh charged up ? industrial designer: it 's um i think it works on the basis they have some kind of ball bearings inside . it 's um it 's some on watches which you you kind of you shake to power it up . somehow the mechanism inside powers up through movement . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so you 'd you 'd move the remote around a little bit and then that powers it up to use it . project manager: okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: so the speech recognition was are we going for speech recognition ? no ? 'cause that required the advanced user interface: um i think it would be helpful to find it , but i do n't think it 'd um marketing: just industrial designer: uh yeah i think did we decide it did n't affect the circuit board , it just affected user interface: yeah , i think so . marketing: just just for the call and find thing . industrial designer: it was just project manager: i had speech recognition requires advanced req require industrial designer: oh no th that 's what that 's what i thought , but maybe maybe it does n't . project manager: oh . industrial designer: um i think i might have got that wrong . project manager: so okay . marketing: 'cause it 's s it 's separate is n't it , project manager: speech recognition you reckon then is s simple . marketing: it 's not part of the industrial designer: it 's it 's just an addition thing it 's um yeah . project manager: and so we would want it in as an extra because it does n't appear to cost too much . would that be industrial designer: 'kay . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: 'kay shall i pass on to you now ? user interface: i think project manager: in fact , it would n't really cost anymore , would it ? user interface: i 'll just just check what it said . actually i do n't think it really says anything about the cost , but it says that it 's already in the coffee machines , so like it 's already kind of marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i assume it would cost extra , but maybe we maybe we 'll find out how much that does cost and have to decide slightly later . project manager: and then have to change all change everything at the last minute . user interface: project manager: okay . s user interface: um . oh , that was quick . um okay , so very brief presentation , um . from looking at the remotes that are out there at the minute , none of them are particularly um sleek and sexy . um i have n't actually got the examples of the scroll button there , um but there 's some curved cases that you can see , uh a range of sizes uh . all of them have a lot of buttons there um they seem to just have the rubber buttons . does that move it ? project manager: sorry ? user interface: it just seems to be skipping on without us doing anything . project manager: yeah , i 've found that try and get it back . industrial designer: if you right click and then go onto a previous slide . user interface: ah it 's alright . industrial designer: okay , right . user interface: um . there was n't much more to say about that , just rambling . um some of the uh remotes that i looked at , one of the models da did actually have voice recognition where you could um where it was connected to the remote control functions . and uh it was quite uh a swish model , where it can control uh four devices , tv , cable , satellite , video , d_v_d_ , audio . um so that 's a bit of competition there . so i mean maybe it 's better not to try and compete with that sort of thing and just to market it as a completely different um like different viewpoint as a kind of finding your lost control industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: rather than trying to compete with the functions . um the scroll buttons , as you 've already mentioned , um there 's examples of those , but they do n't look as sleek as other models . and there 's no real advantage and because it impacts on other on the materials and the price it 's not great . industrial designer: on the price , yeah . project manager: so you were saying the scroll buttons user interface: um yeah . th there was a specialist type of remote that we could think about , um . there was children 's remote , where um they just had a very limited range of buttons and they were b uh bright and colourful and um you you could program them so that they could only look at certain channels . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: 'kay . user interface: um but i do n't know if that 's really in our field ? industrial designer: i guess i guess we 're going for the biggest market , maybe not , user interface: but that 's something that 's out there . industrial designer: but was it was it specified that we went for the biggest ? project manager: well we 're to go for the international market rather than a local market but that that would n't necessarily preclude user interface: hmm . project manager: the one thing that you can often do with products is you can uh make small modifications . so you have your basic model which you would sell at whatever , and then you could have additional features in you know like a you 'd have model one , model two and model three , and therefore you can sub-divide your market up . but that 's really where your field is . user interface: marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: industrial designer: so maybe the children 's remote should be like a a next step , but maybe i dunno for ours , maybe we should project manager: anyway you could add on for an extra package , but on this basic one i 'm reckoning that we 're going for the basic model to be discussed here and that uh you would have for future reference the possibility of adding in extra features at extra cost to take care of specialist market segments . user interface: hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: okay . project manager: is that user interface: right well that 's something that we can be aware of . project manager: so so what are we deciding to do here ? user interface: um . i think because there 's already um very good voice recognition technology out there , and because ours might not cover the same functions that the leading brands do , it might be a good idea to market it as a um finder function . project manager: right . mm-hmm . uh the fi yeah , the finder function rather than as a speech function to find your remote . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so you also said for going for the international market um that some some maybe older people might not like the speech recognition . s s so um user interface: oh yeah . different languages might not be compatible . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . it w it would make it quite complicated , project manager: hmm . industrial designer: where um ours at least keeps it fairly simple and then the user interface: hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , 'cause i think you program um this one yourself , like to say like whatever you want to your question . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah and ours is quite a cheap device , so i do n't know how much we 'll be able to put into it . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so you 'd have a finder feature rather than a voice recognition feature . marketing: yeah . user interface: hmm . project manager: and you were talking user interface: maybe unless something else comes up . project manager: mm . and you were talking about scroll buttons ? user interface: um yeah i think um i think we 've decided that it 's gon na increase the cost project manager: okay . user interface: and give no real kinda extra benefit project manager: b industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and it 's gon na decrease from the sleekness of it . project manager: alright , so we 're just gon na have the the rubber buttons , was that right ? industrial designer: yes yes . user interface: hmm um and just to be aware that there are kind of specialist functions and specialist remotes but we probably do n't want to focus on those like such as the children 's remote . project manager: okay . so not to be focused on . user interface: yeah . um there was a mention just as kind of a warning about button design . um just to avoid ambiguity . so it gave the example of say your volume buttons for up and down , they might both have a v_ on for volume , um let 's think how they did this . project manager: good in in flip it round in ninety degree a hundred and eighty degrees and have it up and down . user interface: i 'm just gon na check so i do this right . project manager: an upside-down v_ . so that would show that volume was going up , whereas the one underneath would see the volume going down . user interface: um . what did they say ? um i think the thing was that if you decide to do this , to have triangular buttons , um somebody might look at this one and say oh well this triangular button is pointing up , and that 's the first thing that they see project manager: right . user interface: actually that ca n't be right , can it ? oh well , no , they might see yeah , they might see this pointing down and think right that 's gon na turn the volume down , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: whereas the actual button 's pointing up , so the function is to turn the button up . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so , be careful what you put on the buttons industrial designer: so maybe we could have like user interface: and be careful of the shape that you make them , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because they might be kind of two um contradicting kind of shapes . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah i i know what you mean . so maybe we could have volume written on the side and then up and down on the on the buttons themselves . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: you could have volume up and volume industrial designer: possible . project manager: volume up , down and like that . industrial designer: mm . project manager: and 'cause the idea was to have limited um it was to have sizable amount of information on it . limited number of buttons . industrial designer: yeah yeah . project manager: 'cause it was sixteen buttons , was n't it that were industrial designer: yeah . yeah we got it down to not too many . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: um and i think that 's all i had to say for that . marketing: okay . user interface: um so what was the decision on the um design of the volume button ? industrial designer: um are we are we gon na go through the design of all the buttons at the moment , or are we gon na t marketing: i 've i 've got some things to say about possible design things from trend watching . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , maybe we should see yours first . user interface: oh okay . marketing: cool . right , um i 've been looking at some trends in in sort of basically fashion on top of doing the um research into the remote control market the the one that 's the one i talked about last time , that we 'd sort of asked people about remote controls and what what was good about them , what was bad , what they used . and we 've also been looking at sort of fa sort of fashions and what people are wanting out of consumer goods at the moment . so we 've had people in paris and milan watching the uh fashion trends . industrial designer: project manager: you know yourself . marketing: so user interface: marketing: so just to summarise the most important things which came out of the remote control market investigation . the most important thing was that the thing sort of look and felt fancy rather than just functional . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: and second , there should be some technological innovation . and then third and l less important than the other two , there should be an ease of use as well . and apparently , the fashion trends are that people want sort of clothes and shoes and things with a fruit and vegetables theme . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um but um the feel of the material should be spongy , industrial designer: marketing: which is contrary to last year , apparently . i presume it must have been not not spongy last year . project manager: user interface: marketing: so we need to emphasise the fancy design with on on our remote control above all else . and then also try and add in technological informat innovation which could be our sort of find the thing with a hand clap . and then we need to ma sort of make it easy to use that 's as a third priority , so perhaps um fewer fewer buttons and functions as we 've as we 've discussed . user interface: marketing: and then maybe find a way to incorporate these trends so that we sort of capture people 's imaginations . so maybe we could make the buttons shaped like fruit and veg , or the the buttons could be spongy , uh somehow . maybe we could make them out of rubber rather than sort of hard plastic . and then sort of even wackier than that , we could maybe have a fruit or vegetable shaped remote , say in the shape of a banana or something like that . right , so that 'll be it . user interface: marketing: maybe a banana or courgette or something . project manager: marketing: how how far we actually want to go along and sort of follow the trends , do we think the trends are particularly important for this type of gadget , or or you know , do they not matter that much ? user interface: i think if you start making the buttons fruit shaped , it might make it more complicated to use . project manager: well you were just talking about you 've got to be careful how you shape your buttons , 'cause you 're can mis-direct people . and i would 've thought the functionality 'cause the people get cheesed off by things by having to read instructions et cetera , so . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: .. . user interface: maybe just one button , say the standby button is quite kinda separate from all the other functions . maybe that could be a little apple . marketing: maybe yeah . project manager: okay . now ? yeah . user interface: and then that would n't get in the way of like kinda one to nine , industrial designer: user interface: and it would n't confuse the numbers . project manager: stand-by button . no th that that incorporates the trend whilst at the same time not confusing people , if you 're looking for functionality . industrial designer: marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: well i dunno i i guess maybe fruit and vegetables may be popular at the moment , but as we know how fickle the fashion markets are , project manager: but what are they gon na be next yeah . what are they gon na be next year . industrial designer: maybe marketing: yeah yeah . user interface: hmm . s project manager: but but th but okay but you you can incorporate the tr if y if you change all the buttons then you 've got the problem that this year 's fruit and veg , next year 's uh i was gon na say animals or elephants or w whatever . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah , project manager: that means you 're constantly changing your production schedule , marketing: i 'm not project manager: and you 've got ta make different moulds and everything else , marketing: yeah . project manager: so that 's not a good idea i would i would suggest . marketing: i 'm not i 'm not sure what what what the sort of timescale we 're thinking of selling the product over is . i do n't know . industrial designer: i mean it just seems realistic that the remote control market is n't the kind of thing which takes in those kinds of fashion trends . marketing: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: to something which is maybe more universal . project manager: well user interface: but i suppose as long as it 's quite a subtle design , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: um even if the design kind of changes , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: we c maybe can imply a fruit shape possibly . project manager: ah d d but if marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: maybe the spongy feel is something we could think about , um . project manager: mm-hmm . well . yep . industrial designer: maybe still with a rubber design we could project manager: was that in the sort of fashion sense that this or was the spongy feel was that uh sort of fashion ? it was , was n't it ? marketing: yeah . project manager: so the user interface: it seems like you 're gon na have rubber cases , as well as buttons . marketing: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: um . user interface: and that you can make them curved or double-curved and that would be the kind of sleek and sexy look . industrial designer: oh yeah yeah one of the things were if you had rubber buttons then you had to have a rubber case . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um oh no no no user interface: oh right , that fits , does n't it ? industrial designer: sorry it 's if you use the uh rubber double curved case then you must use rubber buttons . that 's the way round . if you have the rubber case then you have to have the rubber buttons to go with it . which makes sense . user interface: right . project manager: rubber buttons require rubber case . industrial designer: um . user interface: and that would fit in with what we want , would n't it , for the spongy feel , to have everything rubber . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh so , yeah . the m the main problem is how f how frequently do the fashions change ? 'cause in essence in the production you want things to stay you want to basically mint them out marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause if you 've got fashion changes and that you 're incorporating , then it means that your stock is um is last year 's stock marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and therefore you 're selling it or having to sell it at a discounted rate which you would n't want to do . whereas if you kept the product the same but you could have a difference from year to year , uh it seems to me that you could incorporate a fashion statement if you like , rather than changing the whole kit and caboodle . marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: you 're just changing one aspect like like the standby button or something like that , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: and especially 'cause then you could make it something that industrial designer: i suppose we maybe are limited in the fact that we still have to put the logo on the actual marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: well , you might be limited in space , that yes . industrial designer: would or not . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: well you two are obviously gon na find that out fairly quickly when you move over to your kit modelling stage as to uh how much pl how much how much how pliable is plasticine . user interface: hmm . industrial designer: yes yes . user interface: industrial designer: maybe we could think of the the cases like changing with the fashions project manager: industrial designer: like the nokia phones where you could take the casing off the outside . but whether that would be too much to incorporate in production , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: whether that would just increase the costs , project manager: hmm . industrial designer: make it more complicated . project manager: so you 're talking there about uh changing changing the casing . marketing: that 's possibly it . industrial designer: yeah the a the actual the sort of the look from the outside , so where the buttons would stay the same , and the general function of the remote would stay the same , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but you could change the the way it looked . user interface: yeah and then you could have oh but you still would have to have the logo on every new case , industrial designer: yeah , that 's true . user interface: but you could have like pink cases for girls and red ones and things like that . project manager: yeah you you could do a colour change , so therefore you would yeah yeah i mean that 's effectively what they did with the with the mobile phones , was to have some in blue , some in red , some in rather than all in black industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: or , you know , which four do you want , as long as it 's black ? user interface: hmm . project manager: but uh so industrial designer: so it is a possibility , um . user interface: but we are supposed to use the um company colour scheme , are n't we ? project manager: yes oh that 's true user interface: we have n't really seen that yet industrial designer: oh okay yes project manager: uh that might no marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that is user interface: it might and we might be able to do both but it might clash with certain things . project manager: well not necessarily , because you could have your company uh we 're we 're meant to be finishing up . you could have your company badge and logo . i mean a lot of um computers for instance like like on the one you 've got there , it actually has a sort of um stick on badge marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so what you would al all you would really need , whether it , you know , whether the casing be w any colour , could be any colour , but that badge would then have to stick out on top of it so that uh in a sense , with a with a logo like that , because it 's on a white background , the only colour that it might not stick out so well on would be a white casing . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause you you know you 're sort of you 're badging it . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and in fact a lot of companies get somebody else to make them and literally just badge them themselves with their own uh badge over the top . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: and in fact the way they 've got that there even if you had that on a white , which is the predominant colour of the uh the windows badge , you 'd still be able to see it clearly from you know a white casing uh product . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: so . industrial designer: and whether we 'd have a big enough market to have this kind of like secondary market of selling the cases might be something to consider . user interface: hmm . project manager: user interface: well if it 's for young people , um like the phone generation , that sort of thing 'd probably go down well , marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and the market research has been on that side of things , has n't it ? marketing: yeah , i mean it 's people say that it 's the look , they want the fancy looking thing but i 'm yeah . i 'm not convinced on whether having changeable covers would be something that people would buy into . i think with the mobiles , it 's the , you know it 's a communication device , people see you with it all about and industrial designer: yeah i suppose , user interface: industrial designer: where you you keep the remote hidden under the sofa most of the time . marketing: i if it project manager: it 's uh in in the house , is n't it , i suppose . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay , so if we just went for one colour of a rubber case marketing: i think project manager: so do n't change case . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: change case colour . and we 're sort of saying no to that . user interface: did we decide on the rubber case ? the spongy feel , or did we think that that might go as a trend ? marketing: well , it was different last year . the trend was different last year apparently . it was not not spongy feel . but i do n't know whether the trend will change . i do n't know whether it 's one of those things that like sort of having all fruit shaped keys , that that probably would go out of fashion very quickly , project manager: yeah . marketing: whereas just the fact that it was a rubber case is probably less less of something that y you 're gon na end up hating in a year , you know . industrial designer: yeah , less likely to project manager: sounds reasonable . if you 're going for fashion trends like that they 'll need t you 'd have to have interchangeable cases industrial designer: so then th th that would project manager: so that you could industrial designer: yeah . project manager: or 'cause otherwise someone 's gon na have to buy a complete new remote rather than just a case . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: it seems to make sense that we we 'd just maybe stick with the standard rubber case , marketing: mm . industrial designer: and then have the standard rubber buttons as well . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . industrial designer: um . user interface: uh we have n't really talked about uh the curvature of the case . there 's flat , marketing: user interface: there 's single-curved and there 's double-curved . industrial designer: um . mayb user interface: i 'm not exactly sure what these things look like . industrial designer: maybe curves give it like the slightly more aesthetic feel ? but the double curve would n't require us to perform miracles with the plasticine . user interface: marketing: project manager: user interface: well it says that marketing: when you say d when you say double-curved , what what exactly does that mean ? user interface: i 'm not exactly sure . um i 'll show you the remotes that i 've got . marketing: okay . user interface: see how uh let 's just get that bigger . see how uh the one oh i 'm not plugged in , am i ? marketing: no you 're not connected to me anymore . industrial designer: user interface: that does n't help . project manager: one one thing to cons user interface: shall i just turn it round for time ? project manager: one thing to consider is that in some ways you want um by having a fairly standard case it means they can all fit together on top of each other marketing: that should come up . project manager: therefore for storage purposes in shops and the like and it makes it easier that you can if you can store them up on top of each other . marketing: mm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: whereas if you do um fancy things with it , you then got ta put it in a ca a a packaging box that that does that . and the cost of packaging could be quite important vis-a-vis the total cost of the product . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so shall we go through quickly and just work out what we 've decide on , if we have to kind of project manager: so but marketing: yeah . user interface: um it 's not very clear up there , project manager: no . user interface: but you can see some of them have got kind of bulges , like the second one and the end one uh where there 's a curve there . project manager: mm yep . marketing: right . user interface: i 'm not exactl i do n't know if a double curve is maybe it comes up slightly , or ? marketing: that 's what i was trying to work out . user interface: but um it is a kinda sleeker look if you 've got curves in there . project manager: oh right . s so do you wan na go for curves , more curves ? marketing: shall we industrial designer: project manager: we 're meant to be f we 're meant to be finishing this meeting in about a minute or so . user interface: definitely a single , maybe a double . industrial designer: 'kay , so shall we quickly marketing: yeah . user interface: shall we go for single curve , just to compromise ? industrial designer: we 'll go for single curve , yeah . project manager: okay , industrial designer: single curve . user interface: marketing: okay . project manager: curved or double curved ? so it 's single curved . industrial designer: so did we did we decide on the kinetic power supply ? the one you move around ? user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah i think that think that 's a good idea . project manager: yep . industrial designer: okay . um user interface: and the rubber push buttons , rubber case . marketing: rubber rubber buttons and case . user interface: um and we do n't really know much about the colour scheme or logo yet do we , industrial designer: oh we ca user interface: but possibly a sticker . industrial designer: yeah yeah , we 'll still have the are we gon na go for the simple circuit board just to keep the cost down ? i th i think we can by by not having anything too complicated . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah and and the voice recognition , we can use that ca n't we , just to find it . without affecting the circuit board . project manager: yes . yep . industrial designer: um . marketing: yeah yeah . industrial designer: and see we could always decide against it if something comes up that 's just something to that we seemed to leave out . marketing: okay . and then are we going for sort of one button shaped like a fruit . or veg . user interface: yeah that sounds like it would n't do too much harm in a couple of years . uh what sort of shape do we want ? project manager: so we 've got spongy feel buttons as well , have we ? marketing: do n't know , maybe just project manager: as well as or w or was that marketing: yeah . that 's ru rubber buttons , yeah . project manager: so it 's rubber buttons , industrial designer: yeah , it was just project manager: so it 's not really spongy feel buttons , it 's just rubber buttons . with a rubber case right ? industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , so it 's not too wacky . marketing: reasonably spongy i guess , yeah . project manager: and the standby button is gon na be different . marketing: yeah okay . user interface: um i think an apple would be a good recognisable shape . if you start getting into kinda aubergines and things , it gets a bit weird . marketing: project manager: okay so what what shape are we making the standby button ? marketing: yeah . apple ? project manager: a apple . user interface: vote ? project manager: oh oh sorry ? industrial designer: marketing: yeah . user interface: shall we vote on it ? industrial designer: we will go for the a a a apples apples . marketing: yeah . user interface: anyone got any suggestions ? marketing: apple apple a a qu quite a big one , as well . project manager: user interface: okay . ah . marketing: a big apple . uh user interface: well it could be red . project manager: marketing: could be a red apple , yeah . either , do n't mind . project manager: a red apple ? is it ? user interface: yeah 'cause we wan na incorporate a bit of colour if we can , once we find out um industrial designer: okay . and then we 're gon na are you gon na work on keeping the button design quite simple ? just like the just working out what we 're gon na do for the next time . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um . user interface: yeah . yeah that seems pretty straight forward . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: 'cause most of them will just be kind of mainly circular or like very plain . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: mm-hmm . okay . project manager: sorry what was that last thing again there ? user interface: uh just to keep the shape of the buttons simple . project manager: right much option on that . i thought you were going for a single curve and user interface: ah just the uh shape of the buttons . project manager: alright . industrial designer: and j yeah , just keeping the sort of the labelling them labelling of them fairly simple as well . fairly sort of self explanatory . user interface: yeah . project manager: right , so shape of buttons simple . okay . so that 's that , i guess . we should now go away and get these things sorted out . i guess you two are on plasticine duty or whatever . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: okay . project manager: okay , so um . industrial designer: is that the end ? okay . marketing: looks like it . project manager: okay .

industrial designer gave a presentation about his findings on each of the components of the remote control . then the team discussed the power supply , buttons , circuit board and speech recognition system of the remote . they finally agreed that they should use a kinetic power supply , simple push buttons and a simple circuit board . and a finder feature rather than a voice recognition feature would be a better choice .

what did industrial designer suggest about the simple push button when discussing the components of the remote ? </s> project manager: okay . right . conceptual design meeting . right . okay , so right well um from the last meeting i was trying to send you the minutes , but uh it did n't work out too well , so maybe in sort of um quick summary of the last uh meeting , i can quickly give you what we what we had . user interface: project manager: uh right , so wishing i had n't closed the damn right so we had the fact that we 're gon na have the the logo uh the company logo in its uh colour scheme incorporated onto the the device the remote device . we had uh made our decisions about uh made our decisions about uh the device itself , that it was gon na be simple to make it uh enable us to complete the project in time . we 're gon na have uh effectively two pages , a front page which had the uh features that the uh the customers most wanted , and then the uh the backup features on the second page so that it could uh meet the technical requirements . and the customers would n't have to look at them too often , only as and when required . so . so basically what decisions uh have we uh made ? uh have there been any uh changes ? industrial designer: i think we all have a presentation again , project manager: right . industrial designer: so if we go through those and then um marketing: yeah . project manager: three presentation , yeah . industrial designer: . shall i go first again ? project manager: so yeah , fine . marketing: okay . industrial designer: i see this a little more smoothly than the last one . project manager: industrial designer: okay right , let 's get started . um basically the uh for the um i 'll back actually . for the components design , um next step is basically the the way the remote 's gon na work is still the same idea as before . we still have the user interface which is all the buttons we 're gon na incorporate . then there is a chip and still the sender . so um yes including the power s supply as well . um i 'll go on to my findings in each of these areas . uh first in the power supply , we have the option of just the standard battery , um . there 's a dynamo . any of you think of kind of like the the old torches which you wind up um . there 's a kinetic option , which if any of you 've seen those new watches which you kind of you power up by waving around , um it just requires a small amount of movement which would mean the batteries would n't have to be replaced . um that 's one option , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but i think that was gon na cost a little more . and then there 's solar cells . um as a final option . for the buttons , we have um an integrated push button , which is oh just to say all all these are um supplied by real reaction . so i guess for the ease of for quickness and ease we should take them from at least like one of these options . project manager: okay . industrial designer: um so for the buttons there 's an integrated push button , which i guess is just the same as the standard ones . this says it 's uh similar to uh the button on the mouse for a normal for like uh like modern computer . um there 's a scroll wheel which is you know the new mouse has just got like the centre section which you can scroll up and down , which may be for the volume . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: you could do do that . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um one issue for the buttons is , depending on which material we use , if we use rubber buttons then it requires a rubber case , so we have to take that into consideration . um moving on to the printed s project manager: what would be the cost do do we know ? industrial designer: um that 's on the next project manager: industrial designer: i th i think the there was n't too much difference in the cost , that that related to the actual buttons , but it does affect the printed circuit board . um which is the next section . basically for the circuit board which is the middle , it 's just see it down there the chips like the like the workings of the actual um of the remote . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: the firm supplies a simple , a regular and an advanced um circuit board . and there 's different prices according to each . so if we 've got the scroll wheel for one of the buttons , that would require a slightly more advanced circuit board than if we just had a standard um push button . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um one final thing we came up with was some information on the speech recognition . there 's a small unit available through the company um which obviously would be an extra cost , but it would n't affect the size of the remote too much . um and i guess that would require a more advanced circuit board , so there is an extra price in that sense . there is th sorry an extra cost in that sense . um going to my personal preferences , um i thought possibly for power we could use kinetic um which is the idea of the watches um that you move you move the remote around to power it up . and this would avoid batteries running out , having to replace batteries and such like . um for the buttons , i thought we 'd probably get away with just having the standard um push buttons rather than the scroll wheel . um and for the circuit board , again depends on which features we want in the actual in the remote . so if we wanted the scroll wheel and wanted the voice recognition , um then we 'd have to get a a more costly circuit board . and that 's it . marketing: 'kay . project manager: with the printed circuit boards you were going for the user interface: thanks . industrial designer: um i it kind of depends um if we 're gon na have the speech recognition , we 'd have to probably get an advanced one . i 'm guessing . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh but i do n't know , so that is something i 'll have to look into . project manager: but are we going f r right . industrial designer: um that 's a that 's a decision for all of us . um . project manager: so are we able to make that decision now in a sense that this is the point at which we 're discussing that issue , industrial designer: yeah yeah . we decide . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so would it not be best to rather than i mean one way is to do each of the presentations and then make decisions going back to the various presentations as they were . the other way would be to do the presentation marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then make the decision at that point in time . industrial designer: um . maybe w user interface: yeah , that 's probably a better one , to discuss it straight away . project manager: 'cause at that point then you 've got the details up there , so if we wanted to know for instance that the scroll wheel required the regular and what required advance . then if we were able to see that down then we could make the decision at that point in time industrial designer: um . project manager: and then that would be the end of that issue . does that make sense ? industrial designer: yes . user interface: um i have a lot of the information there . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: it might not be very clear . industrial designer: is there user interface: unless you want to plug it back in to yours . industrial designer: um . we could do , yeah . um yeah we should . project manager: industrial designer: as i say it only specified that we need a more advanced circuit board for the scroll wheel , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it did n't the voice recognition came as a separate piece of information . um . project manager: no the scroll wheel required the regular , so the industrial designer: yeah if if you down um . it 's just this bit at the bottom which i 've highlighted , project manager: hmm . industrial designer: but the scroll wheel requires a mini m minimally a regular chip , project manager: industrial designer: which is in the higher price range . project manager: okay . the display requires an advanced chip user interface: i think the scroll wheel um project manager: the display requires an advanced chip which in turn is more expense . industrial designer: also the display 's for something else which we decided against . um but that bit project manager: okay . industrial designer: and note that the push button just requires a simple chip , so that would keep the price down . project manager: down . user interface: yeah , and if we 're going for sleek and sexy , i think a scroll wheel is maybe a bit kinda bulky ? marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i i 've got um pictures well i 've seen pictures with it kind of sticking off the side of it , project manager: right . okay . user interface: and they do n't really look great . industrial designer: 'kay . so maybe just a simple push button , and that would cut costs on the project manager: so . so we 're going for p okay . so is um marketing: so are we going for the w are we going for the simple one , are we ? user interface: yeah , a simple pushbuttons . project manager: simple push button . marketing: okay . industrial designer: did everyone get this on the speech recognition ? the um it was basically what we said before , the idea that you record in a set message , and then it picks up that message um and replies to you . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so it is basically the concept we discussed before . um but then we do n't know for sure whether it would require a more complicated circuit board . marketing: industrial designer: i 'm guessing it would , but got like the definite information . maybe we should go on what we 're certain of rather than project manager: so if we go for the simple push button , so effectively we 're going for the simple printed circuit board are we ? or are we going for the regular ? industrial designer: um if it 's just the push button then it just needs the simple circuit board . project manager: mm-mm . but is there any other i mean okay , that 's true for the for for that element , but we have to take all el elements into consideration . and so if there is one element that requires the more expensive one , or say the regular one , or the more advanced , then that would have to be the same for all of them . s marketing: mm . user interface: hmm . but marketing: i suppose we need we need to find out what circuit board that requires , maybe before we m make a decision . project manager: right . user interface: but the way that i interpret that um it does n't seem to send out a signal to the telly , it just it 's like a parrot just rep reply replying to your message . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: oh yeah , i suppose so , yeah . industrial designer: so maybe that would be something separate , yeah . user interface: so i do n't think it would effect our circuit board . project manager: no . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: okay , so we 'd have a simple circuit board project manager: industrial designer: and that would be an extra that would be in addition to it . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: oh that makes sense . user interface: and i do n't think you could really perform any of the remote functions with it . marketing: yeah . user interface: 'cause the example that they 've given there is good morning coffee machine , good morning jo . project manager: mm-mm . user interface: it might be useful to say like where are you remote . here i am , jo . industrial designer: okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: user interface: but i think that 's maybe as far as that one could go ? project manager: okay . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah that makes sense , so we 'd stick with the simple circuit board and then think of the speech recognition as an extra an extra possibility . user interface: yeah , just as a fun way to find it . project manager: industrial designer: okay . um . project manager: simple circuit board . simple push button . okay . w w kinetic . user interface: and it says that project manager: you were you were wanting to go for the kinetic power supply . user interface: i think it said the cost of that is n't too much . industrial designer: um yeah i i thought so just for just for ease of not having to replace the batteries . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um . project manager: and how does it get uh charged up ? industrial designer: it 's um i think it works on the basis they have some kind of ball bearings inside . it 's um it 's some on watches which you you kind of you shake to power it up . somehow the mechanism inside powers up through movement . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so you 'd you 'd move the remote around a little bit and then that powers it up to use it . project manager: okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: so the speech recognition was are we going for speech recognition ? no ? 'cause that required the advanced user interface: um i think it would be helpful to find it , but i do n't think it 'd um marketing: just industrial designer: uh yeah i think did we decide it did n't affect the circuit board , it just affected user interface: yeah , i think so . marketing: just just for the call and find thing . industrial designer: it was just project manager: i had speech recognition requires advanced req require industrial designer: oh no th that 's what that 's what i thought , but maybe maybe it does n't . project manager: oh . industrial designer: um i think i might have got that wrong . project manager: so okay . marketing: 'cause it 's s it 's separate is n't it , project manager: speech recognition you reckon then is s simple . marketing: it 's not part of the industrial designer: it 's it 's just an addition thing it 's um yeah . project manager: and so we would want it in as an extra because it does n't appear to cost too much . would that be industrial designer: 'kay . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: 'kay shall i pass on to you now ? user interface: i think project manager: in fact , it would n't really cost anymore , would it ? user interface: i 'll just just check what it said . actually i do n't think it really says anything about the cost , but it says that it 's already in the coffee machines , so like it 's already kind of marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i assume it would cost extra , but maybe we maybe we 'll find out how much that does cost and have to decide slightly later . project manager: and then have to change all change everything at the last minute . user interface: project manager: okay . s user interface: um . oh , that was quick . um okay , so very brief presentation , um . from looking at the remotes that are out there at the minute , none of them are particularly um sleek and sexy . um i have n't actually got the examples of the scroll button there , um but there 's some curved cases that you can see , uh a range of sizes uh . all of them have a lot of buttons there um they seem to just have the rubber buttons . does that move it ? project manager: sorry ? user interface: it just seems to be skipping on without us doing anything . project manager: yeah , i 've found that try and get it back . industrial designer: if you right click and then go onto a previous slide . user interface: ah it 's alright . industrial designer: okay , right . user interface: um . there was n't much more to say about that , just rambling . um some of the uh remotes that i looked at , one of the models da did actually have voice recognition where you could um where it was connected to the remote control functions . and uh it was quite uh a swish model , where it can control uh four devices , tv , cable , satellite , video , d_v_d_ , audio . um so that 's a bit of competition there . so i mean maybe it 's better not to try and compete with that sort of thing and just to market it as a completely different um like different viewpoint as a kind of finding your lost control industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: rather than trying to compete with the functions . um the scroll buttons , as you 've already mentioned , um there 's examples of those , but they do n't look as sleek as other models . and there 's no real advantage and because it impacts on other on the materials and the price it 's not great . industrial designer: on the price , yeah . project manager: so you were saying the scroll buttons user interface: um yeah . th there was a specialist type of remote that we could think about , um . there was children 's remote , where um they just had a very limited range of buttons and they were b uh bright and colourful and um you you could program them so that they could only look at certain channels . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: 'kay . user interface: um but i do n't know if that 's really in our field ? industrial designer: i guess i guess we 're going for the biggest market , maybe not , user interface: but that 's something that 's out there . industrial designer: but was it was it specified that we went for the biggest ? project manager: well we 're to go for the international market rather than a local market but that that would n't necessarily preclude user interface: hmm . project manager: the one thing that you can often do with products is you can uh make small modifications . so you have your basic model which you would sell at whatever , and then you could have additional features in you know like a you 'd have model one , model two and model three , and therefore you can sub-divide your market up . but that 's really where your field is . user interface: marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: industrial designer: so maybe the children 's remote should be like a a next step , but maybe i dunno for ours , maybe we should project manager: anyway you could add on for an extra package , but on this basic one i 'm reckoning that we 're going for the basic model to be discussed here and that uh you would have for future reference the possibility of adding in extra features at extra cost to take care of specialist market segments . user interface: hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: okay . project manager: is that user interface: right well that 's something that we can be aware of . project manager: so so what are we deciding to do here ? user interface: um . i think because there 's already um very good voice recognition technology out there , and because ours might not cover the same functions that the leading brands do , it might be a good idea to market it as a um finder function . project manager: right . mm-hmm . uh the fi yeah , the finder function rather than as a speech function to find your remote . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so you also said for going for the international market um that some some maybe older people might not like the speech recognition . s s so um user interface: oh yeah . different languages might not be compatible . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . it w it would make it quite complicated , project manager: hmm . industrial designer: where um ours at least keeps it fairly simple and then the user interface: hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , 'cause i think you program um this one yourself , like to say like whatever you want to your question . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah and ours is quite a cheap device , so i do n't know how much we 'll be able to put into it . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so you 'd have a finder feature rather than a voice recognition feature . marketing: yeah . user interface: hmm . project manager: and you were talking user interface: maybe unless something else comes up . project manager: mm . and you were talking about scroll buttons ? user interface: um yeah i think um i think we 've decided that it 's gon na increase the cost project manager: okay . user interface: and give no real kinda extra benefit project manager: b industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and it 's gon na decrease from the sleekness of it . project manager: alright , so we 're just gon na have the the rubber buttons , was that right ? industrial designer: yes yes . user interface: hmm um and just to be aware that there are kind of specialist functions and specialist remotes but we probably do n't want to focus on those like such as the children 's remote . project manager: okay . so not to be focused on . user interface: yeah . um there was a mention just as kind of a warning about button design . um just to avoid ambiguity . so it gave the example of say your volume buttons for up and down , they might both have a v_ on for volume , um let 's think how they did this . project manager: good in in flip it round in ninety degree a hundred and eighty degrees and have it up and down . user interface: i 'm just gon na check so i do this right . project manager: an upside-down v_ . so that would show that volume was going up , whereas the one underneath would see the volume going down . user interface: um . what did they say ? um i think the thing was that if you decide to do this , to have triangular buttons , um somebody might look at this one and say oh well this triangular button is pointing up , and that 's the first thing that they see project manager: right . user interface: actually that ca n't be right , can it ? oh well , no , they might see yeah , they might see this pointing down and think right that 's gon na turn the volume down , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: whereas the actual button 's pointing up , so the function is to turn the button up . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so , be careful what you put on the buttons industrial designer: so maybe we could have like user interface: and be careful of the shape that you make them , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because they might be kind of two um contradicting kind of shapes . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah i i know what you mean . so maybe we could have volume written on the side and then up and down on the on the buttons themselves . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: you could have volume up and volume industrial designer: possible . project manager: volume up , down and like that . industrial designer: mm . project manager: and 'cause the idea was to have limited um it was to have sizable amount of information on it . limited number of buttons . industrial designer: yeah yeah . project manager: 'cause it was sixteen buttons , was n't it that were industrial designer: yeah . yeah we got it down to not too many . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: um and i think that 's all i had to say for that . marketing: okay . user interface: um so what was the decision on the um design of the volume button ? industrial designer: um are we are we gon na go through the design of all the buttons at the moment , or are we gon na t marketing: i 've i 've got some things to say about possible design things from trend watching . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , maybe we should see yours first . user interface: oh okay . marketing: cool . right , um i 've been looking at some trends in in sort of basically fashion on top of doing the um research into the remote control market the the one that 's the one i talked about last time , that we 'd sort of asked people about remote controls and what what was good about them , what was bad , what they used . and we 've also been looking at sort of fa sort of fashions and what people are wanting out of consumer goods at the moment . so we 've had people in paris and milan watching the uh fashion trends . industrial designer: project manager: you know yourself . marketing: so user interface: marketing: so just to summarise the most important things which came out of the remote control market investigation . the most important thing was that the thing sort of look and felt fancy rather than just functional . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: and second , there should be some technological innovation . and then third and l less important than the other two , there should be an ease of use as well . and apparently , the fashion trends are that people want sort of clothes and shoes and things with a fruit and vegetables theme . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um but um the feel of the material should be spongy , industrial designer: marketing: which is contrary to last year , apparently . i presume it must have been not not spongy last year . project manager: user interface: marketing: so we need to emphasise the fancy design with on on our remote control above all else . and then also try and add in technological informat innovation which could be our sort of find the thing with a hand clap . and then we need to ma sort of make it easy to use that 's as a third priority , so perhaps um fewer fewer buttons and functions as we 've as we 've discussed . user interface: marketing: and then maybe find a way to incorporate these trends so that we sort of capture people 's imaginations . so maybe we could make the buttons shaped like fruit and veg , or the the buttons could be spongy , uh somehow . maybe we could make them out of rubber rather than sort of hard plastic . and then sort of even wackier than that , we could maybe have a fruit or vegetable shaped remote , say in the shape of a banana or something like that . right , so that 'll be it . user interface: marketing: maybe a banana or courgette or something . project manager: marketing: how how far we actually want to go along and sort of follow the trends , do we think the trends are particularly important for this type of gadget , or or you know , do they not matter that much ? user interface: i think if you start making the buttons fruit shaped , it might make it more complicated to use . project manager: well you were just talking about you 've got to be careful how you shape your buttons , 'cause you 're can mis-direct people . and i would 've thought the functionality 'cause the people get cheesed off by things by having to read instructions et cetera , so . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: .. . user interface: maybe just one button , say the standby button is quite kinda separate from all the other functions . maybe that could be a little apple . marketing: maybe yeah . project manager: okay . now ? yeah . user interface: and then that would n't get in the way of like kinda one to nine , industrial designer: user interface: and it would n't confuse the numbers . project manager: stand-by button . no th that that incorporates the trend whilst at the same time not confusing people , if you 're looking for functionality . industrial designer: marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: well i dunno i i guess maybe fruit and vegetables may be popular at the moment , but as we know how fickle the fashion markets are , project manager: but what are they gon na be next yeah . what are they gon na be next year . industrial designer: maybe marketing: yeah yeah . user interface: hmm . s project manager: but but th but okay but you you can incorporate the tr if y if you change all the buttons then you 've got the problem that this year 's fruit and veg , next year 's uh i was gon na say animals or elephants or w whatever . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah , project manager: that means you 're constantly changing your production schedule , marketing: i 'm not project manager: and you 've got ta make different moulds and everything else , marketing: yeah . project manager: so that 's not a good idea i would i would suggest . marketing: i 'm not i 'm not sure what what what the sort of timescale we 're thinking of selling the product over is . i do n't know . industrial designer: i mean it just seems realistic that the remote control market is n't the kind of thing which takes in those kinds of fashion trends . marketing: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: to something which is maybe more universal . project manager: well user interface: but i suppose as long as it 's quite a subtle design , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: um even if the design kind of changes , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: we c maybe can imply a fruit shape possibly . project manager: ah d d but if marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: maybe the spongy feel is something we could think about , um . project manager: mm-hmm . well . yep . industrial designer: maybe still with a rubber design we could project manager: was that in the sort of fashion sense that this or was the spongy feel was that uh sort of fashion ? it was , was n't it ? marketing: yeah . project manager: so the user interface: it seems like you 're gon na have rubber cases , as well as buttons . marketing: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: um . user interface: and that you can make them curved or double-curved and that would be the kind of sleek and sexy look . industrial designer: oh yeah yeah one of the things were if you had rubber buttons then you had to have a rubber case . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um oh no no no user interface: oh right , that fits , does n't it ? industrial designer: sorry it 's if you use the uh rubber double curved case then you must use rubber buttons . that 's the way round . if you have the rubber case then you have to have the rubber buttons to go with it . which makes sense . user interface: right . project manager: rubber buttons require rubber case . industrial designer: um . user interface: and that would fit in with what we want , would n't it , for the spongy feel , to have everything rubber . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh so , yeah . the m the main problem is how f how frequently do the fashions change ? 'cause in essence in the production you want things to stay you want to basically mint them out marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause if you 've got fashion changes and that you 're incorporating , then it means that your stock is um is last year 's stock marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and therefore you 're selling it or having to sell it at a discounted rate which you would n't want to do . whereas if you kept the product the same but you could have a difference from year to year , uh it seems to me that you could incorporate a fashion statement if you like , rather than changing the whole kit and caboodle . marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: you 're just changing one aspect like like the standby button or something like that , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: and especially 'cause then you could make it something that industrial designer: i suppose we maybe are limited in the fact that we still have to put the logo on the actual marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: well , you might be limited in space , that yes . industrial designer: would or not . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: well you two are obviously gon na find that out fairly quickly when you move over to your kit modelling stage as to uh how much pl how much how much how pliable is plasticine . user interface: hmm . industrial designer: yes yes . user interface: industrial designer: maybe we could think of the the cases like changing with the fashions project manager: industrial designer: like the nokia phones where you could take the casing off the outside . but whether that would be too much to incorporate in production , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: whether that would just increase the costs , project manager: hmm . industrial designer: make it more complicated . project manager: so you 're talking there about uh changing changing the casing . marketing: that 's possibly it . industrial designer: yeah the a the actual the sort of the look from the outside , so where the buttons would stay the same , and the general function of the remote would stay the same , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but you could change the the way it looked . user interface: yeah and then you could have oh but you still would have to have the logo on every new case , industrial designer: yeah , that 's true . user interface: but you could have like pink cases for girls and red ones and things like that . project manager: yeah you you could do a colour change , so therefore you would yeah yeah i mean that 's effectively what they did with the with the mobile phones , was to have some in blue , some in red , some in rather than all in black industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: or , you know , which four do you want , as long as it 's black ? user interface: hmm . project manager: but uh so industrial designer: so it is a possibility , um . user interface: but we are supposed to use the um company colour scheme , are n't we ? project manager: yes oh that 's true user interface: we have n't really seen that yet industrial designer: oh okay yes project manager: uh that might no marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that is user interface: it might and we might be able to do both but it might clash with certain things . project manager: well not necessarily , because you could have your company uh we 're we 're meant to be finishing up . you could have your company badge and logo . i mean a lot of um computers for instance like like on the one you 've got there , it actually has a sort of um stick on badge marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so what you would al all you would really need , whether it , you know , whether the casing be w any colour , could be any colour , but that badge would then have to stick out on top of it so that uh in a sense , with a with a logo like that , because it 's on a white background , the only colour that it might not stick out so well on would be a white casing . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause you you know you 're sort of you 're badging it . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and in fact a lot of companies get somebody else to make them and literally just badge them themselves with their own uh badge over the top . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: and in fact the way they 've got that there even if you had that on a white , which is the predominant colour of the uh the windows badge , you 'd still be able to see it clearly from you know a white casing uh product . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: so . industrial designer: and whether we 'd have a big enough market to have this kind of like secondary market of selling the cases might be something to consider . user interface: hmm . project manager: user interface: well if it 's for young people , um like the phone generation , that sort of thing 'd probably go down well , marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and the market research has been on that side of things , has n't it ? marketing: yeah , i mean it 's people say that it 's the look , they want the fancy looking thing but i 'm yeah . i 'm not convinced on whether having changeable covers would be something that people would buy into . i think with the mobiles , it 's the , you know it 's a communication device , people see you with it all about and industrial designer: yeah i suppose , user interface: industrial designer: where you you keep the remote hidden under the sofa most of the time . marketing: i if it project manager: it 's uh in in the house , is n't it , i suppose . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay , so if we just went for one colour of a rubber case marketing: i think project manager: so do n't change case . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: change case colour . and we 're sort of saying no to that . user interface: did we decide on the rubber case ? the spongy feel , or did we think that that might go as a trend ? marketing: well , it was different last year . the trend was different last year apparently . it was not not spongy feel . but i do n't know whether the trend will change . i do n't know whether it 's one of those things that like sort of having all fruit shaped keys , that that probably would go out of fashion very quickly , project manager: yeah . marketing: whereas just the fact that it was a rubber case is probably less less of something that y you 're gon na end up hating in a year , you know . industrial designer: yeah , less likely to project manager: sounds reasonable . if you 're going for fashion trends like that they 'll need t you 'd have to have interchangeable cases industrial designer: so then th th that would project manager: so that you could industrial designer: yeah . project manager: or 'cause otherwise someone 's gon na have to buy a complete new remote rather than just a case . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: it seems to make sense that we we 'd just maybe stick with the standard rubber case , marketing: mm . industrial designer: and then have the standard rubber buttons as well . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . industrial designer: um . user interface: uh we have n't really talked about uh the curvature of the case . there 's flat , marketing: user interface: there 's single-curved and there 's double-curved . industrial designer: um . mayb user interface: i 'm not exactly sure what these things look like . industrial designer: maybe curves give it like the slightly more aesthetic feel ? but the double curve would n't require us to perform miracles with the plasticine . user interface: marketing: project manager: user interface: well it says that marketing: when you say d when you say double-curved , what what exactly does that mean ? user interface: i 'm not exactly sure . um i 'll show you the remotes that i 've got . marketing: okay . user interface: see how uh let 's just get that bigger . see how uh the one oh i 'm not plugged in , am i ? marketing: no you 're not connected to me anymore . industrial designer: user interface: that does n't help . project manager: one one thing to cons user interface: shall i just turn it round for time ? project manager: one thing to consider is that in some ways you want um by having a fairly standard case it means they can all fit together on top of each other marketing: that should come up . project manager: therefore for storage purposes in shops and the like and it makes it easier that you can if you can store them up on top of each other . marketing: mm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: whereas if you do um fancy things with it , you then got ta put it in a ca a a packaging box that that does that . and the cost of packaging could be quite important vis-a-vis the total cost of the product . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so shall we go through quickly and just work out what we 've decide on , if we have to kind of project manager: so but marketing: yeah . user interface: um it 's not very clear up there , project manager: no . user interface: but you can see some of them have got kind of bulges , like the second one and the end one uh where there 's a curve there . project manager: mm yep . marketing: right . user interface: i 'm not exactl i do n't know if a double curve is maybe it comes up slightly , or ? marketing: that 's what i was trying to work out . user interface: but um it is a kinda sleeker look if you 've got curves in there . project manager: oh right . s so do you wan na go for curves , more curves ? marketing: shall we industrial designer: project manager: we 're meant to be f we 're meant to be finishing this meeting in about a minute or so . user interface: definitely a single , maybe a double . industrial designer: 'kay , so shall we quickly marketing: yeah . user interface: shall we go for single curve , just to compromise ? industrial designer: we 'll go for single curve , yeah . project manager: okay , industrial designer: single curve . user interface: marketing: okay . project manager: curved or double curved ? so it 's single curved . industrial designer: so did we did we decide on the kinetic power supply ? the one you move around ? user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah i think that think that 's a good idea . project manager: yep . industrial designer: okay . um user interface: and the rubber push buttons , rubber case . marketing: rubber rubber buttons and case . user interface: um and we do n't really know much about the colour scheme or logo yet do we , industrial designer: oh we ca user interface: but possibly a sticker . industrial designer: yeah yeah , we 'll still have the are we gon na go for the simple circuit board just to keep the cost down ? i th i think we can by by not having anything too complicated . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah and and the voice recognition , we can use that ca n't we , just to find it . without affecting the circuit board . project manager: yes . yep . industrial designer: um . marketing: yeah yeah . industrial designer: and see we could always decide against it if something comes up that 's just something to that we seemed to leave out . marketing: okay . and then are we going for sort of one button shaped like a fruit . or veg . user interface: yeah that sounds like it would n't do too much harm in a couple of years . uh what sort of shape do we want ? project manager: so we 've got spongy feel buttons as well , have we ? marketing: do n't know , maybe just project manager: as well as or w or was that marketing: yeah . that 's ru rubber buttons , yeah . project manager: so it 's rubber buttons , industrial designer: yeah , it was just project manager: so it 's not really spongy feel buttons , it 's just rubber buttons . with a rubber case right ? industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , so it 's not too wacky . marketing: reasonably spongy i guess , yeah . project manager: and the standby button is gon na be different . marketing: yeah okay . user interface: um i think an apple would be a good recognisable shape . if you start getting into kinda aubergines and things , it gets a bit weird . marketing: project manager: okay so what what shape are we making the standby button ? marketing: yeah . apple ? project manager: a apple . user interface: vote ? project manager: oh oh sorry ? industrial designer: marketing: yeah . user interface: shall we vote on it ? industrial designer: we will go for the a a a apples apples . marketing: yeah . user interface: anyone got any suggestions ? marketing: apple apple a a qu quite a big one , as well . project manager: user interface: okay . ah . marketing: a big apple . uh user interface: well it could be red . project manager: marketing: could be a red apple , yeah . either , do n't mind . project manager: a red apple ? is it ? user interface: yeah 'cause we wan na incorporate a bit of colour if we can , once we find out um industrial designer: okay . and then we 're gon na are you gon na work on keeping the button design quite simple ? just like the just working out what we 're gon na do for the next time . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um . user interface: yeah . yeah that seems pretty straight forward . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: 'cause most of them will just be kind of mainly circular or like very plain . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: mm-hmm . okay . project manager: sorry what was that last thing again there ? user interface: uh just to keep the shape of the buttons simple . project manager: right much option on that . i thought you were going for a single curve and user interface: ah just the uh shape of the buttons . project manager: alright . industrial designer: and j yeah , just keeping the sort of the labelling them labelling of them fairly simple as well . fairly sort of self explanatory . user interface: yeah . project manager: right , so shape of buttons simple . okay . so that 's that , i guess . we should now go away and get these things sorted out . i guess you two are on plasticine duty or whatever . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: okay . project manager: okay , so um . industrial designer: is that the end ? okay . marketing: looks like it . project manager: okay .

industrial designer suggested that simple push buttons just require a simple chip , so that would keep the cost of the remote down .

what did user interface think about the voice recognition system of the remote when discussing the components of the remote ? </s> project manager: okay . right . conceptual design meeting . right . okay , so right well um from the last meeting i was trying to send you the minutes , but uh it did n't work out too well , so maybe in sort of um quick summary of the last uh meeting , i can quickly give you what we what we had . user interface: project manager: uh right , so wishing i had n't closed the damn right so we had the fact that we 're gon na have the the logo uh the company logo in its uh colour scheme incorporated onto the the device the remote device . we had uh made our decisions about uh made our decisions about uh the device itself , that it was gon na be simple to make it uh enable us to complete the project in time . we 're gon na have uh effectively two pages , a front page which had the uh features that the uh the customers most wanted , and then the uh the backup features on the second page so that it could uh meet the technical requirements . and the customers would n't have to look at them too often , only as and when required . so . so basically what decisions uh have we uh made ? uh have there been any uh changes ? industrial designer: i think we all have a presentation again , project manager: right . industrial designer: so if we go through those and then um marketing: yeah . project manager: three presentation , yeah . industrial designer: . shall i go first again ? project manager: so yeah , fine . marketing: okay . industrial designer: i see this a little more smoothly than the last one . project manager: industrial designer: okay right , let 's get started . um basically the uh for the um i 'll back actually . for the components design , um next step is basically the the way the remote 's gon na work is still the same idea as before . we still have the user interface which is all the buttons we 're gon na incorporate . then there is a chip and still the sender . so um yes including the power s supply as well . um i 'll go on to my findings in each of these areas . uh first in the power supply , we have the option of just the standard battery , um . there 's a dynamo . any of you think of kind of like the the old torches which you wind up um . there 's a kinetic option , which if any of you 've seen those new watches which you kind of you power up by waving around , um it just requires a small amount of movement which would mean the batteries would n't have to be replaced . um that 's one option , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but i think that was gon na cost a little more . and then there 's solar cells . um as a final option . for the buttons , we have um an integrated push button , which is oh just to say all all these are um supplied by real reaction . so i guess for the ease of for quickness and ease we should take them from at least like one of these options . project manager: okay . industrial designer: um so for the buttons there 's an integrated push button , which i guess is just the same as the standard ones . this says it 's uh similar to uh the button on the mouse for a normal for like uh like modern computer . um there 's a scroll wheel which is you know the new mouse has just got like the centre section which you can scroll up and down , which may be for the volume . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: you could do do that . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um one issue for the buttons is , depending on which material we use , if we use rubber buttons then it requires a rubber case , so we have to take that into consideration . um moving on to the printed s project manager: what would be the cost do do we know ? industrial designer: um that 's on the next project manager: industrial designer: i th i think the there was n't too much difference in the cost , that that related to the actual buttons , but it does affect the printed circuit board . um which is the next section . basically for the circuit board which is the middle , it 's just see it down there the chips like the like the workings of the actual um of the remote . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: the firm supplies a simple , a regular and an advanced um circuit board . and there 's different prices according to each . so if we 've got the scroll wheel for one of the buttons , that would require a slightly more advanced circuit board than if we just had a standard um push button . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um one final thing we came up with was some information on the speech recognition . there 's a small unit available through the company um which obviously would be an extra cost , but it would n't affect the size of the remote too much . um and i guess that would require a more advanced circuit board , so there is an extra price in that sense . there is th sorry an extra cost in that sense . um going to my personal preferences , um i thought possibly for power we could use kinetic um which is the idea of the watches um that you move you move the remote around to power it up . and this would avoid batteries running out , having to replace batteries and such like . um for the buttons , i thought we 'd probably get away with just having the standard um push buttons rather than the scroll wheel . um and for the circuit board , again depends on which features we want in the actual in the remote . so if we wanted the scroll wheel and wanted the voice recognition , um then we 'd have to get a a more costly circuit board . and that 's it . marketing: 'kay . project manager: with the printed circuit boards you were going for the user interface: thanks . industrial designer: um i it kind of depends um if we 're gon na have the speech recognition , we 'd have to probably get an advanced one . i 'm guessing . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh but i do n't know , so that is something i 'll have to look into . project manager: but are we going f r right . industrial designer: um that 's a that 's a decision for all of us . um . project manager: so are we able to make that decision now in a sense that this is the point at which we 're discussing that issue , industrial designer: yeah yeah . we decide . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so would it not be best to rather than i mean one way is to do each of the presentations and then make decisions going back to the various presentations as they were . the other way would be to do the presentation marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then make the decision at that point in time . industrial designer: um . maybe w user interface: yeah , that 's probably a better one , to discuss it straight away . project manager: 'cause at that point then you 've got the details up there , so if we wanted to know for instance that the scroll wheel required the regular and what required advance . then if we were able to see that down then we could make the decision at that point in time industrial designer: um . project manager: and then that would be the end of that issue . does that make sense ? industrial designer: yes . user interface: um i have a lot of the information there . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: it might not be very clear . industrial designer: is there user interface: unless you want to plug it back in to yours . industrial designer: um . we could do , yeah . um yeah we should . project manager: industrial designer: as i say it only specified that we need a more advanced circuit board for the scroll wheel , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it did n't the voice recognition came as a separate piece of information . um . project manager: no the scroll wheel required the regular , so the industrial designer: yeah if if you down um . it 's just this bit at the bottom which i 've highlighted , project manager: hmm . industrial designer: but the scroll wheel requires a mini m minimally a regular chip , project manager: industrial designer: which is in the higher price range . project manager: okay . the display requires an advanced chip user interface: i think the scroll wheel um project manager: the display requires an advanced chip which in turn is more expense . industrial designer: also the display 's for something else which we decided against . um but that bit project manager: okay . industrial designer: and note that the push button just requires a simple chip , so that would keep the price down . project manager: down . user interface: yeah , and if we 're going for sleek and sexy , i think a scroll wheel is maybe a bit kinda bulky ? marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i i 've got um pictures well i 've seen pictures with it kind of sticking off the side of it , project manager: right . okay . user interface: and they do n't really look great . industrial designer: 'kay . so maybe just a simple push button , and that would cut costs on the project manager: so . so we 're going for p okay . so is um marketing: so are we going for the w are we going for the simple one , are we ? user interface: yeah , a simple pushbuttons . project manager: simple push button . marketing: okay . industrial designer: did everyone get this on the speech recognition ? the um it was basically what we said before , the idea that you record in a set message , and then it picks up that message um and replies to you . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so it is basically the concept we discussed before . um but then we do n't know for sure whether it would require a more complicated circuit board . marketing: industrial designer: i 'm guessing it would , but got like the definite information . maybe we should go on what we 're certain of rather than project manager: so if we go for the simple push button , so effectively we 're going for the simple printed circuit board are we ? or are we going for the regular ? industrial designer: um if it 's just the push button then it just needs the simple circuit board . project manager: mm-mm . but is there any other i mean okay , that 's true for the for for that element , but we have to take all el elements into consideration . and so if there is one element that requires the more expensive one , or say the regular one , or the more advanced , then that would have to be the same for all of them . s marketing: mm . user interface: hmm . but marketing: i suppose we need we need to find out what circuit board that requires , maybe before we m make a decision . project manager: right . user interface: but the way that i interpret that um it does n't seem to send out a signal to the telly , it just it 's like a parrot just rep reply replying to your message . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: oh yeah , i suppose so , yeah . industrial designer: so maybe that would be something separate , yeah . user interface: so i do n't think it would effect our circuit board . project manager: no . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: okay , so we 'd have a simple circuit board project manager: industrial designer: and that would be an extra that would be in addition to it . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: oh that makes sense . user interface: and i do n't think you could really perform any of the remote functions with it . marketing: yeah . user interface: 'cause the example that they 've given there is good morning coffee machine , good morning jo . project manager: mm-mm . user interface: it might be useful to say like where are you remote . here i am , jo . industrial designer: okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: user interface: but i think that 's maybe as far as that one could go ? project manager: okay . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah that makes sense , so we 'd stick with the simple circuit board and then think of the speech recognition as an extra an extra possibility . user interface: yeah , just as a fun way to find it . project manager: industrial designer: okay . um . project manager: simple circuit board . simple push button . okay . w w kinetic . user interface: and it says that project manager: you were you were wanting to go for the kinetic power supply . user interface: i think it said the cost of that is n't too much . industrial designer: um yeah i i thought so just for just for ease of not having to replace the batteries . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um . project manager: and how does it get uh charged up ? industrial designer: it 's um i think it works on the basis they have some kind of ball bearings inside . it 's um it 's some on watches which you you kind of you shake to power it up . somehow the mechanism inside powers up through movement . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so you 'd you 'd move the remote around a little bit and then that powers it up to use it . project manager: okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: so the speech recognition was are we going for speech recognition ? no ? 'cause that required the advanced user interface: um i think it would be helpful to find it , but i do n't think it 'd um marketing: just industrial designer: uh yeah i think did we decide it did n't affect the circuit board , it just affected user interface: yeah , i think so . marketing: just just for the call and find thing . industrial designer: it was just project manager: i had speech recognition requires advanced req require industrial designer: oh no th that 's what that 's what i thought , but maybe maybe it does n't . project manager: oh . industrial designer: um i think i might have got that wrong . project manager: so okay . marketing: 'cause it 's s it 's separate is n't it , project manager: speech recognition you reckon then is s simple . marketing: it 's not part of the industrial designer: it 's it 's just an addition thing it 's um yeah . project manager: and so we would want it in as an extra because it does n't appear to cost too much . would that be industrial designer: 'kay . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: 'kay shall i pass on to you now ? user interface: i think project manager: in fact , it would n't really cost anymore , would it ? user interface: i 'll just just check what it said . actually i do n't think it really says anything about the cost , but it says that it 's already in the coffee machines , so like it 's already kind of marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i assume it would cost extra , but maybe we maybe we 'll find out how much that does cost and have to decide slightly later . project manager: and then have to change all change everything at the last minute . user interface: project manager: okay . s user interface: um . oh , that was quick . um okay , so very brief presentation , um . from looking at the remotes that are out there at the minute , none of them are particularly um sleek and sexy . um i have n't actually got the examples of the scroll button there , um but there 's some curved cases that you can see , uh a range of sizes uh . all of them have a lot of buttons there um they seem to just have the rubber buttons . does that move it ? project manager: sorry ? user interface: it just seems to be skipping on without us doing anything . project manager: yeah , i 've found that try and get it back . industrial designer: if you right click and then go onto a previous slide . user interface: ah it 's alright . industrial designer: okay , right . user interface: um . there was n't much more to say about that , just rambling . um some of the uh remotes that i looked at , one of the models da did actually have voice recognition where you could um where it was connected to the remote control functions . and uh it was quite uh a swish model , where it can control uh four devices , tv , cable , satellite , video , d_v_d_ , audio . um so that 's a bit of competition there . so i mean maybe it 's better not to try and compete with that sort of thing and just to market it as a completely different um like different viewpoint as a kind of finding your lost control industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: rather than trying to compete with the functions . um the scroll buttons , as you 've already mentioned , um there 's examples of those , but they do n't look as sleek as other models . and there 's no real advantage and because it impacts on other on the materials and the price it 's not great . industrial designer: on the price , yeah . project manager: so you were saying the scroll buttons user interface: um yeah . th there was a specialist type of remote that we could think about , um . there was children 's remote , where um they just had a very limited range of buttons and they were b uh bright and colourful and um you you could program them so that they could only look at certain channels . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: 'kay . user interface: um but i do n't know if that 's really in our field ? industrial designer: i guess i guess we 're going for the biggest market , maybe not , user interface: but that 's something that 's out there . industrial designer: but was it was it specified that we went for the biggest ? project manager: well we 're to go for the international market rather than a local market but that that would n't necessarily preclude user interface: hmm . project manager: the one thing that you can often do with products is you can uh make small modifications . so you have your basic model which you would sell at whatever , and then you could have additional features in you know like a you 'd have model one , model two and model three , and therefore you can sub-divide your market up . but that 's really where your field is . user interface: marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: industrial designer: so maybe the children 's remote should be like a a next step , but maybe i dunno for ours , maybe we should project manager: anyway you could add on for an extra package , but on this basic one i 'm reckoning that we 're going for the basic model to be discussed here and that uh you would have for future reference the possibility of adding in extra features at extra cost to take care of specialist market segments . user interface: hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: okay . project manager: is that user interface: right well that 's something that we can be aware of . project manager: so so what are we deciding to do here ? user interface: um . i think because there 's already um very good voice recognition technology out there , and because ours might not cover the same functions that the leading brands do , it might be a good idea to market it as a um finder function . project manager: right . mm-hmm . uh the fi yeah , the finder function rather than as a speech function to find your remote . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so you also said for going for the international market um that some some maybe older people might not like the speech recognition . s s so um user interface: oh yeah . different languages might not be compatible . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . it w it would make it quite complicated , project manager: hmm . industrial designer: where um ours at least keeps it fairly simple and then the user interface: hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , 'cause i think you program um this one yourself , like to say like whatever you want to your question . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah and ours is quite a cheap device , so i do n't know how much we 'll be able to put into it . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so you 'd have a finder feature rather than a voice recognition feature . marketing: yeah . user interface: hmm . project manager: and you were talking user interface: maybe unless something else comes up . project manager: mm . and you were talking about scroll buttons ? user interface: um yeah i think um i think we 've decided that it 's gon na increase the cost project manager: okay . user interface: and give no real kinda extra benefit project manager: b industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and it 's gon na decrease from the sleekness of it . project manager: alright , so we 're just gon na have the the rubber buttons , was that right ? industrial designer: yes yes . user interface: hmm um and just to be aware that there are kind of specialist functions and specialist remotes but we probably do n't want to focus on those like such as the children 's remote . project manager: okay . so not to be focused on . user interface: yeah . um there was a mention just as kind of a warning about button design . um just to avoid ambiguity . so it gave the example of say your volume buttons for up and down , they might both have a v_ on for volume , um let 's think how they did this . project manager: good in in flip it round in ninety degree a hundred and eighty degrees and have it up and down . user interface: i 'm just gon na check so i do this right . project manager: an upside-down v_ . so that would show that volume was going up , whereas the one underneath would see the volume going down . user interface: um . what did they say ? um i think the thing was that if you decide to do this , to have triangular buttons , um somebody might look at this one and say oh well this triangular button is pointing up , and that 's the first thing that they see project manager: right . user interface: actually that ca n't be right , can it ? oh well , no , they might see yeah , they might see this pointing down and think right that 's gon na turn the volume down , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: whereas the actual button 's pointing up , so the function is to turn the button up . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so , be careful what you put on the buttons industrial designer: so maybe we could have like user interface: and be careful of the shape that you make them , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because they might be kind of two um contradicting kind of shapes . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah i i know what you mean . so maybe we could have volume written on the side and then up and down on the on the buttons themselves . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: you could have volume up and volume industrial designer: possible . project manager: volume up , down and like that . industrial designer: mm . project manager: and 'cause the idea was to have limited um it was to have sizable amount of information on it . limited number of buttons . industrial designer: yeah yeah . project manager: 'cause it was sixteen buttons , was n't it that were industrial designer: yeah . yeah we got it down to not too many . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: um and i think that 's all i had to say for that . marketing: okay . user interface: um so what was the decision on the um design of the volume button ? industrial designer: um are we are we gon na go through the design of all the buttons at the moment , or are we gon na t marketing: i 've i 've got some things to say about possible design things from trend watching . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , maybe we should see yours first . user interface: oh okay . marketing: cool . right , um i 've been looking at some trends in in sort of basically fashion on top of doing the um research into the remote control market the the one that 's the one i talked about last time , that we 'd sort of asked people about remote controls and what what was good about them , what was bad , what they used . and we 've also been looking at sort of fa sort of fashions and what people are wanting out of consumer goods at the moment . so we 've had people in paris and milan watching the uh fashion trends . industrial designer: project manager: you know yourself . marketing: so user interface: marketing: so just to summarise the most important things which came out of the remote control market investigation . the most important thing was that the thing sort of look and felt fancy rather than just functional . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: and second , there should be some technological innovation . and then third and l less important than the other two , there should be an ease of use as well . and apparently , the fashion trends are that people want sort of clothes and shoes and things with a fruit and vegetables theme . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um but um the feel of the material should be spongy , industrial designer: marketing: which is contrary to last year , apparently . i presume it must have been not not spongy last year . project manager: user interface: marketing: so we need to emphasise the fancy design with on on our remote control above all else . and then also try and add in technological informat innovation which could be our sort of find the thing with a hand clap . and then we need to ma sort of make it easy to use that 's as a third priority , so perhaps um fewer fewer buttons and functions as we 've as we 've discussed . user interface: marketing: and then maybe find a way to incorporate these trends so that we sort of capture people 's imaginations . so maybe we could make the buttons shaped like fruit and veg , or the the buttons could be spongy , uh somehow . maybe we could make them out of rubber rather than sort of hard plastic . and then sort of even wackier than that , we could maybe have a fruit or vegetable shaped remote , say in the shape of a banana or something like that . right , so that 'll be it . user interface: marketing: maybe a banana or courgette or something . project manager: marketing: how how far we actually want to go along and sort of follow the trends , do we think the trends are particularly important for this type of gadget , or or you know , do they not matter that much ? user interface: i think if you start making the buttons fruit shaped , it might make it more complicated to use . project manager: well you were just talking about you 've got to be careful how you shape your buttons , 'cause you 're can mis-direct people . and i would 've thought the functionality 'cause the people get cheesed off by things by having to read instructions et cetera , so . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: .. . user interface: maybe just one button , say the standby button is quite kinda separate from all the other functions . maybe that could be a little apple . marketing: maybe yeah . project manager: okay . now ? yeah . user interface: and then that would n't get in the way of like kinda one to nine , industrial designer: user interface: and it would n't confuse the numbers . project manager: stand-by button . no th that that incorporates the trend whilst at the same time not confusing people , if you 're looking for functionality . industrial designer: marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: well i dunno i i guess maybe fruit and vegetables may be popular at the moment , but as we know how fickle the fashion markets are , project manager: but what are they gon na be next yeah . what are they gon na be next year . industrial designer: maybe marketing: yeah yeah . user interface: hmm . s project manager: but but th but okay but you you can incorporate the tr if y if you change all the buttons then you 've got the problem that this year 's fruit and veg , next year 's uh i was gon na say animals or elephants or w whatever . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah , project manager: that means you 're constantly changing your production schedule , marketing: i 'm not project manager: and you 've got ta make different moulds and everything else , marketing: yeah . project manager: so that 's not a good idea i would i would suggest . marketing: i 'm not i 'm not sure what what what the sort of timescale we 're thinking of selling the product over is . i do n't know . industrial designer: i mean it just seems realistic that the remote control market is n't the kind of thing which takes in those kinds of fashion trends . marketing: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: to something which is maybe more universal . project manager: well user interface: but i suppose as long as it 's quite a subtle design , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: um even if the design kind of changes , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: we c maybe can imply a fruit shape possibly . project manager: ah d d but if marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: maybe the spongy feel is something we could think about , um . project manager: mm-hmm . well . yep . industrial designer: maybe still with a rubber design we could project manager: was that in the sort of fashion sense that this or was the spongy feel was that uh sort of fashion ? it was , was n't it ? marketing: yeah . project manager: so the user interface: it seems like you 're gon na have rubber cases , as well as buttons . marketing: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: um . user interface: and that you can make them curved or double-curved and that would be the kind of sleek and sexy look . industrial designer: oh yeah yeah one of the things were if you had rubber buttons then you had to have a rubber case . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um oh no no no user interface: oh right , that fits , does n't it ? industrial designer: sorry it 's if you use the uh rubber double curved case then you must use rubber buttons . that 's the way round . if you have the rubber case then you have to have the rubber buttons to go with it . which makes sense . user interface: right . project manager: rubber buttons require rubber case . industrial designer: um . user interface: and that would fit in with what we want , would n't it , for the spongy feel , to have everything rubber . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh so , yeah . the m the main problem is how f how frequently do the fashions change ? 'cause in essence in the production you want things to stay you want to basically mint them out marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause if you 've got fashion changes and that you 're incorporating , then it means that your stock is um is last year 's stock marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and therefore you 're selling it or having to sell it at a discounted rate which you would n't want to do . whereas if you kept the product the same but you could have a difference from year to year , uh it seems to me that you could incorporate a fashion statement if you like , rather than changing the whole kit and caboodle . marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: you 're just changing one aspect like like the standby button or something like that , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: and especially 'cause then you could make it something that industrial designer: i suppose we maybe are limited in the fact that we still have to put the logo on the actual marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: well , you might be limited in space , that yes . industrial designer: would or not . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: well you two are obviously gon na find that out fairly quickly when you move over to your kit modelling stage as to uh how much pl how much how much how pliable is plasticine . user interface: hmm . industrial designer: yes yes . user interface: industrial designer: maybe we could think of the the cases like changing with the fashions project manager: industrial designer: like the nokia phones where you could take the casing off the outside . but whether that would be too much to incorporate in production , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: whether that would just increase the costs , project manager: hmm . industrial designer: make it more complicated . project manager: so you 're talking there about uh changing changing the casing . marketing: that 's possibly it . industrial designer: yeah the a the actual the sort of the look from the outside , so where the buttons would stay the same , and the general function of the remote would stay the same , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but you could change the the way it looked . user interface: yeah and then you could have oh but you still would have to have the logo on every new case , industrial designer: yeah , that 's true . user interface: but you could have like pink cases for girls and red ones and things like that . project manager: yeah you you could do a colour change , so therefore you would yeah yeah i mean that 's effectively what they did with the with the mobile phones , was to have some in blue , some in red , some in rather than all in black industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: or , you know , which four do you want , as long as it 's black ? user interface: hmm . project manager: but uh so industrial designer: so it is a possibility , um . user interface: but we are supposed to use the um company colour scheme , are n't we ? project manager: yes oh that 's true user interface: we have n't really seen that yet industrial designer: oh okay yes project manager: uh that might no marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that is user interface: it might and we might be able to do both but it might clash with certain things . project manager: well not necessarily , because you could have your company uh we 're we 're meant to be finishing up . you could have your company badge and logo . i mean a lot of um computers for instance like like on the one you 've got there , it actually has a sort of um stick on badge marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so what you would al all you would really need , whether it , you know , whether the casing be w any colour , could be any colour , but that badge would then have to stick out on top of it so that uh in a sense , with a with a logo like that , because it 's on a white background , the only colour that it might not stick out so well on would be a white casing . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause you you know you 're sort of you 're badging it . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and in fact a lot of companies get somebody else to make them and literally just badge them themselves with their own uh badge over the top . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: and in fact the way they 've got that there even if you had that on a white , which is the predominant colour of the uh the windows badge , you 'd still be able to see it clearly from you know a white casing uh product . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: so . industrial designer: and whether we 'd have a big enough market to have this kind of like secondary market of selling the cases might be something to consider . user interface: hmm . project manager: user interface: well if it 's for young people , um like the phone generation , that sort of thing 'd probably go down well , marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and the market research has been on that side of things , has n't it ? marketing: yeah , i mean it 's people say that it 's the look , they want the fancy looking thing but i 'm yeah . i 'm not convinced on whether having changeable covers would be something that people would buy into . i think with the mobiles , it 's the , you know it 's a communication device , people see you with it all about and industrial designer: yeah i suppose , user interface: industrial designer: where you you keep the remote hidden under the sofa most of the time . marketing: i if it project manager: it 's uh in in the house , is n't it , i suppose . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay , so if we just went for one colour of a rubber case marketing: i think project manager: so do n't change case . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: change case colour . and we 're sort of saying no to that . user interface: did we decide on the rubber case ? the spongy feel , or did we think that that might go as a trend ? marketing: well , it was different last year . the trend was different last year apparently . it was not not spongy feel . but i do n't know whether the trend will change . i do n't know whether it 's one of those things that like sort of having all fruit shaped keys , that that probably would go out of fashion very quickly , project manager: yeah . marketing: whereas just the fact that it was a rubber case is probably less less of something that y you 're gon na end up hating in a year , you know . industrial designer: yeah , less likely to project manager: sounds reasonable . if you 're going for fashion trends like that they 'll need t you 'd have to have interchangeable cases industrial designer: so then th th that would project manager: so that you could industrial designer: yeah . project manager: or 'cause otherwise someone 's gon na have to buy a complete new remote rather than just a case . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: it seems to make sense that we we 'd just maybe stick with the standard rubber case , marketing: mm . industrial designer: and then have the standard rubber buttons as well . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . industrial designer: um . user interface: uh we have n't really talked about uh the curvature of the case . there 's flat , marketing: user interface: there 's single-curved and there 's double-curved . industrial designer: um . mayb user interface: i 'm not exactly sure what these things look like . industrial designer: maybe curves give it like the slightly more aesthetic feel ? but the double curve would n't require us to perform miracles with the plasticine . user interface: marketing: project manager: user interface: well it says that marketing: when you say d when you say double-curved , what what exactly does that mean ? user interface: i 'm not exactly sure . um i 'll show you the remotes that i 've got . marketing: okay . user interface: see how uh let 's just get that bigger . see how uh the one oh i 'm not plugged in , am i ? marketing: no you 're not connected to me anymore . industrial designer: user interface: that does n't help . project manager: one one thing to cons user interface: shall i just turn it round for time ? project manager: one thing to consider is that in some ways you want um by having a fairly standard case it means they can all fit together on top of each other marketing: that should come up . project manager: therefore for storage purposes in shops and the like and it makes it easier that you can if you can store them up on top of each other . marketing: mm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: whereas if you do um fancy things with it , you then got ta put it in a ca a a packaging box that that does that . and the cost of packaging could be quite important vis-a-vis the total cost of the product . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so shall we go through quickly and just work out what we 've decide on , if we have to kind of project manager: so but marketing: yeah . user interface: um it 's not very clear up there , project manager: no . user interface: but you can see some of them have got kind of bulges , like the second one and the end one uh where there 's a curve there . project manager: mm yep . marketing: right . user interface: i 'm not exactl i do n't know if a double curve is maybe it comes up slightly , or ? marketing: that 's what i was trying to work out . user interface: but um it is a kinda sleeker look if you 've got curves in there . project manager: oh right . s so do you wan na go for curves , more curves ? marketing: shall we industrial designer: project manager: we 're meant to be f we 're meant to be finishing this meeting in about a minute or so . user interface: definitely a single , maybe a double . industrial designer: 'kay , so shall we quickly marketing: yeah . user interface: shall we go for single curve , just to compromise ? industrial designer: we 'll go for single curve , yeah . project manager: okay , industrial designer: single curve . user interface: marketing: okay . project manager: curved or double curved ? so it 's single curved . industrial designer: so did we did we decide on the kinetic power supply ? the one you move around ? user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah i think that think that 's a good idea . project manager: yep . industrial designer: okay . um user interface: and the rubber push buttons , rubber case . marketing: rubber rubber buttons and case . user interface: um and we do n't really know much about the colour scheme or logo yet do we , industrial designer: oh we ca user interface: but possibly a sticker . industrial designer: yeah yeah , we 'll still have the are we gon na go for the simple circuit board just to keep the cost down ? i th i think we can by by not having anything too complicated . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah and and the voice recognition , we can use that ca n't we , just to find it . without affecting the circuit board . project manager: yes . yep . industrial designer: um . marketing: yeah yeah . industrial designer: and see we could always decide against it if something comes up that 's just something to that we seemed to leave out . marketing: okay . and then are we going for sort of one button shaped like a fruit . or veg . user interface: yeah that sounds like it would n't do too much harm in a couple of years . uh what sort of shape do we want ? project manager: so we 've got spongy feel buttons as well , have we ? marketing: do n't know , maybe just project manager: as well as or w or was that marketing: yeah . that 's ru rubber buttons , yeah . project manager: so it 's rubber buttons , industrial designer: yeah , it was just project manager: so it 's not really spongy feel buttons , it 's just rubber buttons . with a rubber case right ? industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , so it 's not too wacky . marketing: reasonably spongy i guess , yeah . project manager: and the standby button is gon na be different . marketing: yeah okay . user interface: um i think an apple would be a good recognisable shape . if you start getting into kinda aubergines and things , it gets a bit weird . marketing: project manager: okay so what what shape are we making the standby button ? marketing: yeah . apple ? project manager: a apple . user interface: vote ? project manager: oh oh sorry ? industrial designer: marketing: yeah . user interface: shall we vote on it ? industrial designer: we will go for the a a a apples apples . marketing: yeah . user interface: anyone got any suggestions ? marketing: apple apple a a qu quite a big one , as well . project manager: user interface: okay . ah . marketing: a big apple . uh user interface: well it could be red . project manager: marketing: could be a red apple , yeah . either , do n't mind . project manager: a red apple ? is it ? user interface: yeah 'cause we wan na incorporate a bit of colour if we can , once we find out um industrial designer: okay . and then we 're gon na are you gon na work on keeping the button design quite simple ? just like the just working out what we 're gon na do for the next time . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um . user interface: yeah . yeah that seems pretty straight forward . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: 'cause most of them will just be kind of mainly circular or like very plain . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: mm-hmm . okay . project manager: sorry what was that last thing again there ? user interface: uh just to keep the shape of the buttons simple . project manager: right much option on that . i thought you were going for a single curve and user interface: ah just the uh shape of the buttons . project manager: alright . industrial designer: and j yeah , just keeping the sort of the labelling them labelling of them fairly simple as well . fairly sort of self explanatory . user interface: yeah . project manager: right , so shape of buttons simple . okay . so that 's that , i guess . we should now go away and get these things sorted out . i guess you two are on plasticine duty or whatever . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: okay . project manager: okay , so um . industrial designer: is that the end ? okay . marketing: looks like it . project manager: okay .

user interface thought that there were many remotes that already had the function of voice recognition , so it was better not to compete with that sort of remote and to find a different viewpoint of finding the lost control . she believed that a finder function rather than a speech function would be a better choice for their remote .

what did the team discuss about the design of the remote control and what is the conclusion of the discussion ? </s> project manager: okay . right . conceptual design meeting . right . okay , so right well um from the last meeting i was trying to send you the minutes , but uh it did n't work out too well , so maybe in sort of um quick summary of the last uh meeting , i can quickly give you what we what we had . user interface: project manager: uh right , so wishing i had n't closed the damn right so we had the fact that we 're gon na have the the logo uh the company logo in its uh colour scheme incorporated onto the the device the remote device . we had uh made our decisions about uh made our decisions about uh the device itself , that it was gon na be simple to make it uh enable us to complete the project in time . we 're gon na have uh effectively two pages , a front page which had the uh features that the uh the customers most wanted , and then the uh the backup features on the second page so that it could uh meet the technical requirements . and the customers would n't have to look at them too often , only as and when required . so . so basically what decisions uh have we uh made ? uh have there been any uh changes ? industrial designer: i think we all have a presentation again , project manager: right . industrial designer: so if we go through those and then um marketing: yeah . project manager: three presentation , yeah . industrial designer: . shall i go first again ? project manager: so yeah , fine . marketing: okay . industrial designer: i see this a little more smoothly than the last one . project manager: industrial designer: okay right , let 's get started . um basically the uh for the um i 'll back actually . for the components design , um next step is basically the the way the remote 's gon na work is still the same idea as before . we still have the user interface which is all the buttons we 're gon na incorporate . then there is a chip and still the sender . so um yes including the power s supply as well . um i 'll go on to my findings in each of these areas . uh first in the power supply , we have the option of just the standard battery , um . there 's a dynamo . any of you think of kind of like the the old torches which you wind up um . there 's a kinetic option , which if any of you 've seen those new watches which you kind of you power up by waving around , um it just requires a small amount of movement which would mean the batteries would n't have to be replaced . um that 's one option , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but i think that was gon na cost a little more . and then there 's solar cells . um as a final option . for the buttons , we have um an integrated push button , which is oh just to say all all these are um supplied by real reaction . so i guess for the ease of for quickness and ease we should take them from at least like one of these options . project manager: okay . industrial designer: um so for the buttons there 's an integrated push button , which i guess is just the same as the standard ones . this says it 's uh similar to uh the button on the mouse for a normal for like uh like modern computer . um there 's a scroll wheel which is you know the new mouse has just got like the centre section which you can scroll up and down , which may be for the volume . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: you could do do that . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um one issue for the buttons is , depending on which material we use , if we use rubber buttons then it requires a rubber case , so we have to take that into consideration . um moving on to the printed s project manager: what would be the cost do do we know ? industrial designer: um that 's on the next project manager: industrial designer: i th i think the there was n't too much difference in the cost , that that related to the actual buttons , but it does affect the printed circuit board . um which is the next section . basically for the circuit board which is the middle , it 's just see it down there the chips like the like the workings of the actual um of the remote . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: the firm supplies a simple , a regular and an advanced um circuit board . and there 's different prices according to each . so if we 've got the scroll wheel for one of the buttons , that would require a slightly more advanced circuit board than if we just had a standard um push button . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um one final thing we came up with was some information on the speech recognition . there 's a small unit available through the company um which obviously would be an extra cost , but it would n't affect the size of the remote too much . um and i guess that would require a more advanced circuit board , so there is an extra price in that sense . there is th sorry an extra cost in that sense . um going to my personal preferences , um i thought possibly for power we could use kinetic um which is the idea of the watches um that you move you move the remote around to power it up . and this would avoid batteries running out , having to replace batteries and such like . um for the buttons , i thought we 'd probably get away with just having the standard um push buttons rather than the scroll wheel . um and for the circuit board , again depends on which features we want in the actual in the remote . so if we wanted the scroll wheel and wanted the voice recognition , um then we 'd have to get a a more costly circuit board . and that 's it . marketing: 'kay . project manager: with the printed circuit boards you were going for the user interface: thanks . industrial designer: um i it kind of depends um if we 're gon na have the speech recognition , we 'd have to probably get an advanced one . i 'm guessing . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh but i do n't know , so that is something i 'll have to look into . project manager: but are we going f r right . industrial designer: um that 's a that 's a decision for all of us . um . project manager: so are we able to make that decision now in a sense that this is the point at which we 're discussing that issue , industrial designer: yeah yeah . we decide . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so would it not be best to rather than i mean one way is to do each of the presentations and then make decisions going back to the various presentations as they were . the other way would be to do the presentation marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then make the decision at that point in time . industrial designer: um . maybe w user interface: yeah , that 's probably a better one , to discuss it straight away . project manager: 'cause at that point then you 've got the details up there , so if we wanted to know for instance that the scroll wheel required the regular and what required advance . then if we were able to see that down then we could make the decision at that point in time industrial designer: um . project manager: and then that would be the end of that issue . does that make sense ? industrial designer: yes . user interface: um i have a lot of the information there . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: it might not be very clear . industrial designer: is there user interface: unless you want to plug it back in to yours . industrial designer: um . we could do , yeah . um yeah we should . project manager: industrial designer: as i say it only specified that we need a more advanced circuit board for the scroll wheel , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it did n't the voice recognition came as a separate piece of information . um . project manager: no the scroll wheel required the regular , so the industrial designer: yeah if if you down um . it 's just this bit at the bottom which i 've highlighted , project manager: hmm . industrial designer: but the scroll wheel requires a mini m minimally a regular chip , project manager: industrial designer: which is in the higher price range . project manager: okay . the display requires an advanced chip user interface: i think the scroll wheel um project manager: the display requires an advanced chip which in turn is more expense . industrial designer: also the display 's for something else which we decided against . um but that bit project manager: okay . industrial designer: and note that the push button just requires a simple chip , so that would keep the price down . project manager: down . user interface: yeah , and if we 're going for sleek and sexy , i think a scroll wheel is maybe a bit kinda bulky ? marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i i 've got um pictures well i 've seen pictures with it kind of sticking off the side of it , project manager: right . okay . user interface: and they do n't really look great . industrial designer: 'kay . so maybe just a simple push button , and that would cut costs on the project manager: so . so we 're going for p okay . so is um marketing: so are we going for the w are we going for the simple one , are we ? user interface: yeah , a simple pushbuttons . project manager: simple push button . marketing: okay . industrial designer: did everyone get this on the speech recognition ? the um it was basically what we said before , the idea that you record in a set message , and then it picks up that message um and replies to you . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so it is basically the concept we discussed before . um but then we do n't know for sure whether it would require a more complicated circuit board . marketing: industrial designer: i 'm guessing it would , but got like the definite information . maybe we should go on what we 're certain of rather than project manager: so if we go for the simple push button , so effectively we 're going for the simple printed circuit board are we ? or are we going for the regular ? industrial designer: um if it 's just the push button then it just needs the simple circuit board . project manager: mm-mm . but is there any other i mean okay , that 's true for the for for that element , but we have to take all el elements into consideration . and so if there is one element that requires the more expensive one , or say the regular one , or the more advanced , then that would have to be the same for all of them . s marketing: mm . user interface: hmm . but marketing: i suppose we need we need to find out what circuit board that requires , maybe before we m make a decision . project manager: right . user interface: but the way that i interpret that um it does n't seem to send out a signal to the telly , it just it 's like a parrot just rep reply replying to your message . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: oh yeah , i suppose so , yeah . industrial designer: so maybe that would be something separate , yeah . user interface: so i do n't think it would effect our circuit board . project manager: no . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: okay , so we 'd have a simple circuit board project manager: industrial designer: and that would be an extra that would be in addition to it . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: oh that makes sense . user interface: and i do n't think you could really perform any of the remote functions with it . marketing: yeah . user interface: 'cause the example that they 've given there is good morning coffee machine , good morning jo . project manager: mm-mm . user interface: it might be useful to say like where are you remote . here i am , jo . industrial designer: okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: user interface: but i think that 's maybe as far as that one could go ? project manager: okay . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah that makes sense , so we 'd stick with the simple circuit board and then think of the speech recognition as an extra an extra possibility . user interface: yeah , just as a fun way to find it . project manager: industrial designer: okay . um . project manager: simple circuit board . simple push button . okay . w w kinetic . user interface: and it says that project manager: you were you were wanting to go for the kinetic power supply . user interface: i think it said the cost of that is n't too much . industrial designer: um yeah i i thought so just for just for ease of not having to replace the batteries . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um . project manager: and how does it get uh charged up ? industrial designer: it 's um i think it works on the basis they have some kind of ball bearings inside . it 's um it 's some on watches which you you kind of you shake to power it up . somehow the mechanism inside powers up through movement . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so you 'd you 'd move the remote around a little bit and then that powers it up to use it . project manager: okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: so the speech recognition was are we going for speech recognition ? no ? 'cause that required the advanced user interface: um i think it would be helpful to find it , but i do n't think it 'd um marketing: just industrial designer: uh yeah i think did we decide it did n't affect the circuit board , it just affected user interface: yeah , i think so . marketing: just just for the call and find thing . industrial designer: it was just project manager: i had speech recognition requires advanced req require industrial designer: oh no th that 's what that 's what i thought , but maybe maybe it does n't . project manager: oh . industrial designer: um i think i might have got that wrong . project manager: so okay . marketing: 'cause it 's s it 's separate is n't it , project manager: speech recognition you reckon then is s simple . marketing: it 's not part of the industrial designer: it 's it 's just an addition thing it 's um yeah . project manager: and so we would want it in as an extra because it does n't appear to cost too much . would that be industrial designer: 'kay . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: 'kay shall i pass on to you now ? user interface: i think project manager: in fact , it would n't really cost anymore , would it ? user interface: i 'll just just check what it said . actually i do n't think it really says anything about the cost , but it says that it 's already in the coffee machines , so like it 's already kind of marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i assume it would cost extra , but maybe we maybe we 'll find out how much that does cost and have to decide slightly later . project manager: and then have to change all change everything at the last minute . user interface: project manager: okay . s user interface: um . oh , that was quick . um okay , so very brief presentation , um . from looking at the remotes that are out there at the minute , none of them are particularly um sleek and sexy . um i have n't actually got the examples of the scroll button there , um but there 's some curved cases that you can see , uh a range of sizes uh . all of them have a lot of buttons there um they seem to just have the rubber buttons . does that move it ? project manager: sorry ? user interface: it just seems to be skipping on without us doing anything . project manager: yeah , i 've found that try and get it back . industrial designer: if you right click and then go onto a previous slide . user interface: ah it 's alright . industrial designer: okay , right . user interface: um . there was n't much more to say about that , just rambling . um some of the uh remotes that i looked at , one of the models da did actually have voice recognition where you could um where it was connected to the remote control functions . and uh it was quite uh a swish model , where it can control uh four devices , tv , cable , satellite , video , d_v_d_ , audio . um so that 's a bit of competition there . so i mean maybe it 's better not to try and compete with that sort of thing and just to market it as a completely different um like different viewpoint as a kind of finding your lost control industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: rather than trying to compete with the functions . um the scroll buttons , as you 've already mentioned , um there 's examples of those , but they do n't look as sleek as other models . and there 's no real advantage and because it impacts on other on the materials and the price it 's not great . industrial designer: on the price , yeah . project manager: so you were saying the scroll buttons user interface: um yeah . th there was a specialist type of remote that we could think about , um . there was children 's remote , where um they just had a very limited range of buttons and they were b uh bright and colourful and um you you could program them so that they could only look at certain channels . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: 'kay . user interface: um but i do n't know if that 's really in our field ? industrial designer: i guess i guess we 're going for the biggest market , maybe not , user interface: but that 's something that 's out there . industrial designer: but was it was it specified that we went for the biggest ? project manager: well we 're to go for the international market rather than a local market but that that would n't necessarily preclude user interface: hmm . project manager: the one thing that you can often do with products is you can uh make small modifications . so you have your basic model which you would sell at whatever , and then you could have additional features in you know like a you 'd have model one , model two and model three , and therefore you can sub-divide your market up . but that 's really where your field is . user interface: marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: industrial designer: so maybe the children 's remote should be like a a next step , but maybe i dunno for ours , maybe we should project manager: anyway you could add on for an extra package , but on this basic one i 'm reckoning that we 're going for the basic model to be discussed here and that uh you would have for future reference the possibility of adding in extra features at extra cost to take care of specialist market segments . user interface: hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: okay . project manager: is that user interface: right well that 's something that we can be aware of . project manager: so so what are we deciding to do here ? user interface: um . i think because there 's already um very good voice recognition technology out there , and because ours might not cover the same functions that the leading brands do , it might be a good idea to market it as a um finder function . project manager: right . mm-hmm . uh the fi yeah , the finder function rather than as a speech function to find your remote . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so you also said for going for the international market um that some some maybe older people might not like the speech recognition . s s so um user interface: oh yeah . different languages might not be compatible . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . it w it would make it quite complicated , project manager: hmm . industrial designer: where um ours at least keeps it fairly simple and then the user interface: hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , 'cause i think you program um this one yourself , like to say like whatever you want to your question . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah and ours is quite a cheap device , so i do n't know how much we 'll be able to put into it . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so you 'd have a finder feature rather than a voice recognition feature . marketing: yeah . user interface: hmm . project manager: and you were talking user interface: maybe unless something else comes up . project manager: mm . and you were talking about scroll buttons ? user interface: um yeah i think um i think we 've decided that it 's gon na increase the cost project manager: okay . user interface: and give no real kinda extra benefit project manager: b industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and it 's gon na decrease from the sleekness of it . project manager: alright , so we 're just gon na have the the rubber buttons , was that right ? industrial designer: yes yes . user interface: hmm um and just to be aware that there are kind of specialist functions and specialist remotes but we probably do n't want to focus on those like such as the children 's remote . project manager: okay . so not to be focused on . user interface: yeah . um there was a mention just as kind of a warning about button design . um just to avoid ambiguity . so it gave the example of say your volume buttons for up and down , they might both have a v_ on for volume , um let 's think how they did this . project manager: good in in flip it round in ninety degree a hundred and eighty degrees and have it up and down . user interface: i 'm just gon na check so i do this right . project manager: an upside-down v_ . so that would show that volume was going up , whereas the one underneath would see the volume going down . user interface: um . what did they say ? um i think the thing was that if you decide to do this , to have triangular buttons , um somebody might look at this one and say oh well this triangular button is pointing up , and that 's the first thing that they see project manager: right . user interface: actually that ca n't be right , can it ? oh well , no , they might see yeah , they might see this pointing down and think right that 's gon na turn the volume down , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: whereas the actual button 's pointing up , so the function is to turn the button up . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so , be careful what you put on the buttons industrial designer: so maybe we could have like user interface: and be careful of the shape that you make them , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because they might be kind of two um contradicting kind of shapes . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah i i know what you mean . so maybe we could have volume written on the side and then up and down on the on the buttons themselves . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: you could have volume up and volume industrial designer: possible . project manager: volume up , down and like that . industrial designer: mm . project manager: and 'cause the idea was to have limited um it was to have sizable amount of information on it . limited number of buttons . industrial designer: yeah yeah . project manager: 'cause it was sixteen buttons , was n't it that were industrial designer: yeah . yeah we got it down to not too many . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: um and i think that 's all i had to say for that . marketing: okay . user interface: um so what was the decision on the um design of the volume button ? industrial designer: um are we are we gon na go through the design of all the buttons at the moment , or are we gon na t marketing: i 've i 've got some things to say about possible design things from trend watching . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , maybe we should see yours first . user interface: oh okay . marketing: cool . right , um i 've been looking at some trends in in sort of basically fashion on top of doing the um research into the remote control market the the one that 's the one i talked about last time , that we 'd sort of asked people about remote controls and what what was good about them , what was bad , what they used . and we 've also been looking at sort of fa sort of fashions and what people are wanting out of consumer goods at the moment . so we 've had people in paris and milan watching the uh fashion trends . industrial designer: project manager: you know yourself . marketing: so user interface: marketing: so just to summarise the most important things which came out of the remote control market investigation . the most important thing was that the thing sort of look and felt fancy rather than just functional . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: and second , there should be some technological innovation . and then third and l less important than the other two , there should be an ease of use as well . and apparently , the fashion trends are that people want sort of clothes and shoes and things with a fruit and vegetables theme . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um but um the feel of the material should be spongy , industrial designer: marketing: which is contrary to last year , apparently . i presume it must have been not not spongy last year . project manager: user interface: marketing: so we need to emphasise the fancy design with on on our remote control above all else . and then also try and add in technological informat innovation which could be our sort of find the thing with a hand clap . and then we need to ma sort of make it easy to use that 's as a third priority , so perhaps um fewer fewer buttons and functions as we 've as we 've discussed . user interface: marketing: and then maybe find a way to incorporate these trends so that we sort of capture people 's imaginations . so maybe we could make the buttons shaped like fruit and veg , or the the buttons could be spongy , uh somehow . maybe we could make them out of rubber rather than sort of hard plastic . and then sort of even wackier than that , we could maybe have a fruit or vegetable shaped remote , say in the shape of a banana or something like that . right , so that 'll be it . user interface: marketing: maybe a banana or courgette or something . project manager: marketing: how how far we actually want to go along and sort of follow the trends , do we think the trends are particularly important for this type of gadget , or or you know , do they not matter that much ? user interface: i think if you start making the buttons fruit shaped , it might make it more complicated to use . project manager: well you were just talking about you 've got to be careful how you shape your buttons , 'cause you 're can mis-direct people . and i would 've thought the functionality 'cause the people get cheesed off by things by having to read instructions et cetera , so . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: .. . user interface: maybe just one button , say the standby button is quite kinda separate from all the other functions . maybe that could be a little apple . marketing: maybe yeah . project manager: okay . now ? yeah . user interface: and then that would n't get in the way of like kinda one to nine , industrial designer: user interface: and it would n't confuse the numbers . project manager: stand-by button . no th that that incorporates the trend whilst at the same time not confusing people , if you 're looking for functionality . industrial designer: marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: well i dunno i i guess maybe fruit and vegetables may be popular at the moment , but as we know how fickle the fashion markets are , project manager: but what are they gon na be next yeah . what are they gon na be next year . industrial designer: maybe marketing: yeah yeah . user interface: hmm . s project manager: but but th but okay but you you can incorporate the tr if y if you change all the buttons then you 've got the problem that this year 's fruit and veg , next year 's uh i was gon na say animals or elephants or w whatever . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah , project manager: that means you 're constantly changing your production schedule , marketing: i 'm not project manager: and you 've got ta make different moulds and everything else , marketing: yeah . project manager: so that 's not a good idea i would i would suggest . marketing: i 'm not i 'm not sure what what what the sort of timescale we 're thinking of selling the product over is . i do n't know . industrial designer: i mean it just seems realistic that the remote control market is n't the kind of thing which takes in those kinds of fashion trends . marketing: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: to something which is maybe more universal . project manager: well user interface: but i suppose as long as it 's quite a subtle design , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: um even if the design kind of changes , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: we c maybe can imply a fruit shape possibly . project manager: ah d d but if marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: maybe the spongy feel is something we could think about , um . project manager: mm-hmm . well . yep . industrial designer: maybe still with a rubber design we could project manager: was that in the sort of fashion sense that this or was the spongy feel was that uh sort of fashion ? it was , was n't it ? marketing: yeah . project manager: so the user interface: it seems like you 're gon na have rubber cases , as well as buttons . marketing: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: um . user interface: and that you can make them curved or double-curved and that would be the kind of sleek and sexy look . industrial designer: oh yeah yeah one of the things were if you had rubber buttons then you had to have a rubber case . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um oh no no no user interface: oh right , that fits , does n't it ? industrial designer: sorry it 's if you use the uh rubber double curved case then you must use rubber buttons . that 's the way round . if you have the rubber case then you have to have the rubber buttons to go with it . which makes sense . user interface: right . project manager: rubber buttons require rubber case . industrial designer: um . user interface: and that would fit in with what we want , would n't it , for the spongy feel , to have everything rubber . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh so , yeah . the m the main problem is how f how frequently do the fashions change ? 'cause in essence in the production you want things to stay you want to basically mint them out marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause if you 've got fashion changes and that you 're incorporating , then it means that your stock is um is last year 's stock marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and therefore you 're selling it or having to sell it at a discounted rate which you would n't want to do . whereas if you kept the product the same but you could have a difference from year to year , uh it seems to me that you could incorporate a fashion statement if you like , rather than changing the whole kit and caboodle . marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: you 're just changing one aspect like like the standby button or something like that , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: and especially 'cause then you could make it something that industrial designer: i suppose we maybe are limited in the fact that we still have to put the logo on the actual marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: well , you might be limited in space , that yes . industrial designer: would or not . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: well you two are obviously gon na find that out fairly quickly when you move over to your kit modelling stage as to uh how much pl how much how much how pliable is plasticine . user interface: hmm . industrial designer: yes yes . user interface: industrial designer: maybe we could think of the the cases like changing with the fashions project manager: industrial designer: like the nokia phones where you could take the casing off the outside . but whether that would be too much to incorporate in production , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: whether that would just increase the costs , project manager: hmm . industrial designer: make it more complicated . project manager: so you 're talking there about uh changing changing the casing . marketing: that 's possibly it . industrial designer: yeah the a the actual the sort of the look from the outside , so where the buttons would stay the same , and the general function of the remote would stay the same , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but you could change the the way it looked . user interface: yeah and then you could have oh but you still would have to have the logo on every new case , industrial designer: yeah , that 's true . user interface: but you could have like pink cases for girls and red ones and things like that . project manager: yeah you you could do a colour change , so therefore you would yeah yeah i mean that 's effectively what they did with the with the mobile phones , was to have some in blue , some in red , some in rather than all in black industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: or , you know , which four do you want , as long as it 's black ? user interface: hmm . project manager: but uh so industrial designer: so it is a possibility , um . user interface: but we are supposed to use the um company colour scheme , are n't we ? project manager: yes oh that 's true user interface: we have n't really seen that yet industrial designer: oh okay yes project manager: uh that might no marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that is user interface: it might and we might be able to do both but it might clash with certain things . project manager: well not necessarily , because you could have your company uh we 're we 're meant to be finishing up . you could have your company badge and logo . i mean a lot of um computers for instance like like on the one you 've got there , it actually has a sort of um stick on badge marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so what you would al all you would really need , whether it , you know , whether the casing be w any colour , could be any colour , but that badge would then have to stick out on top of it so that uh in a sense , with a with a logo like that , because it 's on a white background , the only colour that it might not stick out so well on would be a white casing . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause you you know you 're sort of you 're badging it . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and in fact a lot of companies get somebody else to make them and literally just badge them themselves with their own uh badge over the top . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: and in fact the way they 've got that there even if you had that on a white , which is the predominant colour of the uh the windows badge , you 'd still be able to see it clearly from you know a white casing uh product . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: so . industrial designer: and whether we 'd have a big enough market to have this kind of like secondary market of selling the cases might be something to consider . user interface: hmm . project manager: user interface: well if it 's for young people , um like the phone generation , that sort of thing 'd probably go down well , marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and the market research has been on that side of things , has n't it ? marketing: yeah , i mean it 's people say that it 's the look , they want the fancy looking thing but i 'm yeah . i 'm not convinced on whether having changeable covers would be something that people would buy into . i think with the mobiles , it 's the , you know it 's a communication device , people see you with it all about and industrial designer: yeah i suppose , user interface: industrial designer: where you you keep the remote hidden under the sofa most of the time . marketing: i if it project manager: it 's uh in in the house , is n't it , i suppose . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay , so if we just went for one colour of a rubber case marketing: i think project manager: so do n't change case . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: change case colour . and we 're sort of saying no to that . user interface: did we decide on the rubber case ? the spongy feel , or did we think that that might go as a trend ? marketing: well , it was different last year . the trend was different last year apparently . it was not not spongy feel . but i do n't know whether the trend will change . i do n't know whether it 's one of those things that like sort of having all fruit shaped keys , that that probably would go out of fashion very quickly , project manager: yeah . marketing: whereas just the fact that it was a rubber case is probably less less of something that y you 're gon na end up hating in a year , you know . industrial designer: yeah , less likely to project manager: sounds reasonable . if you 're going for fashion trends like that they 'll need t you 'd have to have interchangeable cases industrial designer: so then th th that would project manager: so that you could industrial designer: yeah . project manager: or 'cause otherwise someone 's gon na have to buy a complete new remote rather than just a case . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: it seems to make sense that we we 'd just maybe stick with the standard rubber case , marketing: mm . industrial designer: and then have the standard rubber buttons as well . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . industrial designer: um . user interface: uh we have n't really talked about uh the curvature of the case . there 's flat , marketing: user interface: there 's single-curved and there 's double-curved . industrial designer: um . mayb user interface: i 'm not exactly sure what these things look like . industrial designer: maybe curves give it like the slightly more aesthetic feel ? but the double curve would n't require us to perform miracles with the plasticine . user interface: marketing: project manager: user interface: well it says that marketing: when you say d when you say double-curved , what what exactly does that mean ? user interface: i 'm not exactly sure . um i 'll show you the remotes that i 've got . marketing: okay . user interface: see how uh let 's just get that bigger . see how uh the one oh i 'm not plugged in , am i ? marketing: no you 're not connected to me anymore . industrial designer: user interface: that does n't help . project manager: one one thing to cons user interface: shall i just turn it round for time ? project manager: one thing to consider is that in some ways you want um by having a fairly standard case it means they can all fit together on top of each other marketing: that should come up . project manager: therefore for storage purposes in shops and the like and it makes it easier that you can if you can store them up on top of each other . marketing: mm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: whereas if you do um fancy things with it , you then got ta put it in a ca a a packaging box that that does that . and the cost of packaging could be quite important vis-a-vis the total cost of the product . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so shall we go through quickly and just work out what we 've decide on , if we have to kind of project manager: so but marketing: yeah . user interface: um it 's not very clear up there , project manager: no . user interface: but you can see some of them have got kind of bulges , like the second one and the end one uh where there 's a curve there . project manager: mm yep . marketing: right . user interface: i 'm not exactl i do n't know if a double curve is maybe it comes up slightly , or ? marketing: that 's what i was trying to work out . user interface: but um it is a kinda sleeker look if you 've got curves in there . project manager: oh right . s so do you wan na go for curves , more curves ? marketing: shall we industrial designer: project manager: we 're meant to be f we 're meant to be finishing this meeting in about a minute or so . user interface: definitely a single , maybe a double . industrial designer: 'kay , so shall we quickly marketing: yeah . user interface: shall we go for single curve , just to compromise ? industrial designer: we 'll go for single curve , yeah . project manager: okay , industrial designer: single curve . user interface: marketing: okay . project manager: curved or double curved ? so it 's single curved . industrial designer: so did we did we decide on the kinetic power supply ? the one you move around ? user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah i think that think that 's a good idea . project manager: yep . industrial designer: okay . um user interface: and the rubber push buttons , rubber case . marketing: rubber rubber buttons and case . user interface: um and we do n't really know much about the colour scheme or logo yet do we , industrial designer: oh we ca user interface: but possibly a sticker . industrial designer: yeah yeah , we 'll still have the are we gon na go for the simple circuit board just to keep the cost down ? i th i think we can by by not having anything too complicated . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah and and the voice recognition , we can use that ca n't we , just to find it . without affecting the circuit board . project manager: yes . yep . industrial designer: um . marketing: yeah yeah . industrial designer: and see we could always decide against it if something comes up that 's just something to that we seemed to leave out . marketing: okay . and then are we going for sort of one button shaped like a fruit . or veg . user interface: yeah that sounds like it would n't do too much harm in a couple of years . uh what sort of shape do we want ? project manager: so we 've got spongy feel buttons as well , have we ? marketing: do n't know , maybe just project manager: as well as or w or was that marketing: yeah . that 's ru rubber buttons , yeah . project manager: so it 's rubber buttons , industrial designer: yeah , it was just project manager: so it 's not really spongy feel buttons , it 's just rubber buttons . with a rubber case right ? industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , so it 's not too wacky . marketing: reasonably spongy i guess , yeah . project manager: and the standby button is gon na be different . marketing: yeah okay . user interface: um i think an apple would be a good recognisable shape . if you start getting into kinda aubergines and things , it gets a bit weird . marketing: project manager: okay so what what shape are we making the standby button ? marketing: yeah . apple ? project manager: a apple . user interface: vote ? project manager: oh oh sorry ? industrial designer: marketing: yeah . user interface: shall we vote on it ? industrial designer: we will go for the a a a apples apples . marketing: yeah . user interface: anyone got any suggestions ? marketing: apple apple a a qu quite a big one , as well . project manager: user interface: okay . ah . marketing: a big apple . uh user interface: well it could be red . project manager: marketing: could be a red apple , yeah . either , do n't mind . project manager: a red apple ? is it ? user interface: yeah 'cause we wan na incorporate a bit of colour if we can , once we find out um industrial designer: okay . and then we 're gon na are you gon na work on keeping the button design quite simple ? just like the just working out what we 're gon na do for the next time . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um . user interface: yeah . yeah that seems pretty straight forward . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: 'cause most of them will just be kind of mainly circular or like very plain . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: mm-hmm . okay . project manager: sorry what was that last thing again there ? user interface: uh just to keep the shape of the buttons simple . project manager: right much option on that . i thought you were going for a single curve and user interface: ah just the uh shape of the buttons . project manager: alright . industrial designer: and j yeah , just keeping the sort of the labelling them labelling of them fairly simple as well . fairly sort of self explanatory . user interface: yeah . project manager: right , so shape of buttons simple . okay . so that 's that , i guess . we should now go away and get these things sorted out . i guess you two are on plasticine duty or whatever . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: okay . project manager: okay , so um . industrial designer: is that the end ? okay . marketing: looks like it . project manager: okay .

the team discussed the material of the remote and the shape of the buttons . they finally made the decision that the case and buttons of the remote should be made of rubber , and the shape of buttons should be as simple as possible .

what did marketing suggest about the shape and materials of buttons when discussing the design of the remote ? </s> project manager: okay . right . conceptual design meeting . right . okay , so right well um from the last meeting i was trying to send you the minutes , but uh it did n't work out too well , so maybe in sort of um quick summary of the last uh meeting , i can quickly give you what we what we had . user interface: project manager: uh right , so wishing i had n't closed the damn right so we had the fact that we 're gon na have the the logo uh the company logo in its uh colour scheme incorporated onto the the device the remote device . we had uh made our decisions about uh made our decisions about uh the device itself , that it was gon na be simple to make it uh enable us to complete the project in time . we 're gon na have uh effectively two pages , a front page which had the uh features that the uh the customers most wanted , and then the uh the backup features on the second page so that it could uh meet the technical requirements . and the customers would n't have to look at them too often , only as and when required . so . so basically what decisions uh have we uh made ? uh have there been any uh changes ? industrial designer: i think we all have a presentation again , project manager: right . industrial designer: so if we go through those and then um marketing: yeah . project manager: three presentation , yeah . industrial designer: . shall i go first again ? project manager: so yeah , fine . marketing: okay . industrial designer: i see this a little more smoothly than the last one . project manager: industrial designer: okay right , let 's get started . um basically the uh for the um i 'll back actually . for the components design , um next step is basically the the way the remote 's gon na work is still the same idea as before . we still have the user interface which is all the buttons we 're gon na incorporate . then there is a chip and still the sender . so um yes including the power s supply as well . um i 'll go on to my findings in each of these areas . uh first in the power supply , we have the option of just the standard battery , um . there 's a dynamo . any of you think of kind of like the the old torches which you wind up um . there 's a kinetic option , which if any of you 've seen those new watches which you kind of you power up by waving around , um it just requires a small amount of movement which would mean the batteries would n't have to be replaced . um that 's one option , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but i think that was gon na cost a little more . and then there 's solar cells . um as a final option . for the buttons , we have um an integrated push button , which is oh just to say all all these are um supplied by real reaction . so i guess for the ease of for quickness and ease we should take them from at least like one of these options . project manager: okay . industrial designer: um so for the buttons there 's an integrated push button , which i guess is just the same as the standard ones . this says it 's uh similar to uh the button on the mouse for a normal for like uh like modern computer . um there 's a scroll wheel which is you know the new mouse has just got like the centre section which you can scroll up and down , which may be for the volume . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: you could do do that . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um one issue for the buttons is , depending on which material we use , if we use rubber buttons then it requires a rubber case , so we have to take that into consideration . um moving on to the printed s project manager: what would be the cost do do we know ? industrial designer: um that 's on the next project manager: industrial designer: i th i think the there was n't too much difference in the cost , that that related to the actual buttons , but it does affect the printed circuit board . um which is the next section . basically for the circuit board which is the middle , it 's just see it down there the chips like the like the workings of the actual um of the remote . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: the firm supplies a simple , a regular and an advanced um circuit board . and there 's different prices according to each . so if we 've got the scroll wheel for one of the buttons , that would require a slightly more advanced circuit board than if we just had a standard um push button . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um one final thing we came up with was some information on the speech recognition . there 's a small unit available through the company um which obviously would be an extra cost , but it would n't affect the size of the remote too much . um and i guess that would require a more advanced circuit board , so there is an extra price in that sense . there is th sorry an extra cost in that sense . um going to my personal preferences , um i thought possibly for power we could use kinetic um which is the idea of the watches um that you move you move the remote around to power it up . and this would avoid batteries running out , having to replace batteries and such like . um for the buttons , i thought we 'd probably get away with just having the standard um push buttons rather than the scroll wheel . um and for the circuit board , again depends on which features we want in the actual in the remote . so if we wanted the scroll wheel and wanted the voice recognition , um then we 'd have to get a a more costly circuit board . and that 's it . marketing: 'kay . project manager: with the printed circuit boards you were going for the user interface: thanks . industrial designer: um i it kind of depends um if we 're gon na have the speech recognition , we 'd have to probably get an advanced one . i 'm guessing . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh but i do n't know , so that is something i 'll have to look into . project manager: but are we going f r right . industrial designer: um that 's a that 's a decision for all of us . um . project manager: so are we able to make that decision now in a sense that this is the point at which we 're discussing that issue , industrial designer: yeah yeah . we decide . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so would it not be best to rather than i mean one way is to do each of the presentations and then make decisions going back to the various presentations as they were . the other way would be to do the presentation marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then make the decision at that point in time . industrial designer: um . maybe w user interface: yeah , that 's probably a better one , to discuss it straight away . project manager: 'cause at that point then you 've got the details up there , so if we wanted to know for instance that the scroll wheel required the regular and what required advance . then if we were able to see that down then we could make the decision at that point in time industrial designer: um . project manager: and then that would be the end of that issue . does that make sense ? industrial designer: yes . user interface: um i have a lot of the information there . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: it might not be very clear . industrial designer: is there user interface: unless you want to plug it back in to yours . industrial designer: um . we could do , yeah . um yeah we should . project manager: industrial designer: as i say it only specified that we need a more advanced circuit board for the scroll wheel , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it did n't the voice recognition came as a separate piece of information . um . project manager: no the scroll wheel required the regular , so the industrial designer: yeah if if you down um . it 's just this bit at the bottom which i 've highlighted , project manager: hmm . industrial designer: but the scroll wheel requires a mini m minimally a regular chip , project manager: industrial designer: which is in the higher price range . project manager: okay . the display requires an advanced chip user interface: i think the scroll wheel um project manager: the display requires an advanced chip which in turn is more expense . industrial designer: also the display 's for something else which we decided against . um but that bit project manager: okay . industrial designer: and note that the push button just requires a simple chip , so that would keep the price down . project manager: down . user interface: yeah , and if we 're going for sleek and sexy , i think a scroll wheel is maybe a bit kinda bulky ? marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i i 've got um pictures well i 've seen pictures with it kind of sticking off the side of it , project manager: right . okay . user interface: and they do n't really look great . industrial designer: 'kay . so maybe just a simple push button , and that would cut costs on the project manager: so . so we 're going for p okay . so is um marketing: so are we going for the w are we going for the simple one , are we ? user interface: yeah , a simple pushbuttons . project manager: simple push button . marketing: okay . industrial designer: did everyone get this on the speech recognition ? the um it was basically what we said before , the idea that you record in a set message , and then it picks up that message um and replies to you . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so it is basically the concept we discussed before . um but then we do n't know for sure whether it would require a more complicated circuit board . marketing: industrial designer: i 'm guessing it would , but got like the definite information . maybe we should go on what we 're certain of rather than project manager: so if we go for the simple push button , so effectively we 're going for the simple printed circuit board are we ? or are we going for the regular ? industrial designer: um if it 's just the push button then it just needs the simple circuit board . project manager: mm-mm . but is there any other i mean okay , that 's true for the for for that element , but we have to take all el elements into consideration . and so if there is one element that requires the more expensive one , or say the regular one , or the more advanced , then that would have to be the same for all of them . s marketing: mm . user interface: hmm . but marketing: i suppose we need we need to find out what circuit board that requires , maybe before we m make a decision . project manager: right . user interface: but the way that i interpret that um it does n't seem to send out a signal to the telly , it just it 's like a parrot just rep reply replying to your message . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: oh yeah , i suppose so , yeah . industrial designer: so maybe that would be something separate , yeah . user interface: so i do n't think it would effect our circuit board . project manager: no . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: okay , so we 'd have a simple circuit board project manager: industrial designer: and that would be an extra that would be in addition to it . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: oh that makes sense . user interface: and i do n't think you could really perform any of the remote functions with it . marketing: yeah . user interface: 'cause the example that they 've given there is good morning coffee machine , good morning jo . project manager: mm-mm . user interface: it might be useful to say like where are you remote . here i am , jo . industrial designer: okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: user interface: but i think that 's maybe as far as that one could go ? project manager: okay . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah that makes sense , so we 'd stick with the simple circuit board and then think of the speech recognition as an extra an extra possibility . user interface: yeah , just as a fun way to find it . project manager: industrial designer: okay . um . project manager: simple circuit board . simple push button . okay . w w kinetic . user interface: and it says that project manager: you were you were wanting to go for the kinetic power supply . user interface: i think it said the cost of that is n't too much . industrial designer: um yeah i i thought so just for just for ease of not having to replace the batteries . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um . project manager: and how does it get uh charged up ? industrial designer: it 's um i think it works on the basis they have some kind of ball bearings inside . it 's um it 's some on watches which you you kind of you shake to power it up . somehow the mechanism inside powers up through movement . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so you 'd you 'd move the remote around a little bit and then that powers it up to use it . project manager: okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: so the speech recognition was are we going for speech recognition ? no ? 'cause that required the advanced user interface: um i think it would be helpful to find it , but i do n't think it 'd um marketing: just industrial designer: uh yeah i think did we decide it did n't affect the circuit board , it just affected user interface: yeah , i think so . marketing: just just for the call and find thing . industrial designer: it was just project manager: i had speech recognition requires advanced req require industrial designer: oh no th that 's what that 's what i thought , but maybe maybe it does n't . project manager: oh . industrial designer: um i think i might have got that wrong . project manager: so okay . marketing: 'cause it 's s it 's separate is n't it , project manager: speech recognition you reckon then is s simple . marketing: it 's not part of the industrial designer: it 's it 's just an addition thing it 's um yeah . project manager: and so we would want it in as an extra because it does n't appear to cost too much . would that be industrial designer: 'kay . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: 'kay shall i pass on to you now ? user interface: i think project manager: in fact , it would n't really cost anymore , would it ? user interface: i 'll just just check what it said . actually i do n't think it really says anything about the cost , but it says that it 's already in the coffee machines , so like it 's already kind of marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i assume it would cost extra , but maybe we maybe we 'll find out how much that does cost and have to decide slightly later . project manager: and then have to change all change everything at the last minute . user interface: project manager: okay . s user interface: um . oh , that was quick . um okay , so very brief presentation , um . from looking at the remotes that are out there at the minute , none of them are particularly um sleek and sexy . um i have n't actually got the examples of the scroll button there , um but there 's some curved cases that you can see , uh a range of sizes uh . all of them have a lot of buttons there um they seem to just have the rubber buttons . does that move it ? project manager: sorry ? user interface: it just seems to be skipping on without us doing anything . project manager: yeah , i 've found that try and get it back . industrial designer: if you right click and then go onto a previous slide . user interface: ah it 's alright . industrial designer: okay , right . user interface: um . there was n't much more to say about that , just rambling . um some of the uh remotes that i looked at , one of the models da did actually have voice recognition where you could um where it was connected to the remote control functions . and uh it was quite uh a swish model , where it can control uh four devices , tv , cable , satellite , video , d_v_d_ , audio . um so that 's a bit of competition there . so i mean maybe it 's better not to try and compete with that sort of thing and just to market it as a completely different um like different viewpoint as a kind of finding your lost control industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: rather than trying to compete with the functions . um the scroll buttons , as you 've already mentioned , um there 's examples of those , but they do n't look as sleek as other models . and there 's no real advantage and because it impacts on other on the materials and the price it 's not great . industrial designer: on the price , yeah . project manager: so you were saying the scroll buttons user interface: um yeah . th there was a specialist type of remote that we could think about , um . there was children 's remote , where um they just had a very limited range of buttons and they were b uh bright and colourful and um you you could program them so that they could only look at certain channels . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: 'kay . user interface: um but i do n't know if that 's really in our field ? industrial designer: i guess i guess we 're going for the biggest market , maybe not , user interface: but that 's something that 's out there . industrial designer: but was it was it specified that we went for the biggest ? project manager: well we 're to go for the international market rather than a local market but that that would n't necessarily preclude user interface: hmm . project manager: the one thing that you can often do with products is you can uh make small modifications . so you have your basic model which you would sell at whatever , and then you could have additional features in you know like a you 'd have model one , model two and model three , and therefore you can sub-divide your market up . but that 's really where your field is . user interface: marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: industrial designer: so maybe the children 's remote should be like a a next step , but maybe i dunno for ours , maybe we should project manager: anyway you could add on for an extra package , but on this basic one i 'm reckoning that we 're going for the basic model to be discussed here and that uh you would have for future reference the possibility of adding in extra features at extra cost to take care of specialist market segments . user interface: hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: okay . project manager: is that user interface: right well that 's something that we can be aware of . project manager: so so what are we deciding to do here ? user interface: um . i think because there 's already um very good voice recognition technology out there , and because ours might not cover the same functions that the leading brands do , it might be a good idea to market it as a um finder function . project manager: right . mm-hmm . uh the fi yeah , the finder function rather than as a speech function to find your remote . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so you also said for going for the international market um that some some maybe older people might not like the speech recognition . s s so um user interface: oh yeah . different languages might not be compatible . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . it w it would make it quite complicated , project manager: hmm . industrial designer: where um ours at least keeps it fairly simple and then the user interface: hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , 'cause i think you program um this one yourself , like to say like whatever you want to your question . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah and ours is quite a cheap device , so i do n't know how much we 'll be able to put into it . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so you 'd have a finder feature rather than a voice recognition feature . marketing: yeah . user interface: hmm . project manager: and you were talking user interface: maybe unless something else comes up . project manager: mm . and you were talking about scroll buttons ? user interface: um yeah i think um i think we 've decided that it 's gon na increase the cost project manager: okay . user interface: and give no real kinda extra benefit project manager: b industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and it 's gon na decrease from the sleekness of it . project manager: alright , so we 're just gon na have the the rubber buttons , was that right ? industrial designer: yes yes . user interface: hmm um and just to be aware that there are kind of specialist functions and specialist remotes but we probably do n't want to focus on those like such as the children 's remote . project manager: okay . so not to be focused on . user interface: yeah . um there was a mention just as kind of a warning about button design . um just to avoid ambiguity . so it gave the example of say your volume buttons for up and down , they might both have a v_ on for volume , um let 's think how they did this . project manager: good in in flip it round in ninety degree a hundred and eighty degrees and have it up and down . user interface: i 'm just gon na check so i do this right . project manager: an upside-down v_ . so that would show that volume was going up , whereas the one underneath would see the volume going down . user interface: um . what did they say ? um i think the thing was that if you decide to do this , to have triangular buttons , um somebody might look at this one and say oh well this triangular button is pointing up , and that 's the first thing that they see project manager: right . user interface: actually that ca n't be right , can it ? oh well , no , they might see yeah , they might see this pointing down and think right that 's gon na turn the volume down , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: whereas the actual button 's pointing up , so the function is to turn the button up . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so , be careful what you put on the buttons industrial designer: so maybe we could have like user interface: and be careful of the shape that you make them , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because they might be kind of two um contradicting kind of shapes . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah i i know what you mean . so maybe we could have volume written on the side and then up and down on the on the buttons themselves . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: you could have volume up and volume industrial designer: possible . project manager: volume up , down and like that . industrial designer: mm . project manager: and 'cause the idea was to have limited um it was to have sizable amount of information on it . limited number of buttons . industrial designer: yeah yeah . project manager: 'cause it was sixteen buttons , was n't it that were industrial designer: yeah . yeah we got it down to not too many . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: um and i think that 's all i had to say for that . marketing: okay . user interface: um so what was the decision on the um design of the volume button ? industrial designer: um are we are we gon na go through the design of all the buttons at the moment , or are we gon na t marketing: i 've i 've got some things to say about possible design things from trend watching . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , maybe we should see yours first . user interface: oh okay . marketing: cool . right , um i 've been looking at some trends in in sort of basically fashion on top of doing the um research into the remote control market the the one that 's the one i talked about last time , that we 'd sort of asked people about remote controls and what what was good about them , what was bad , what they used . and we 've also been looking at sort of fa sort of fashions and what people are wanting out of consumer goods at the moment . so we 've had people in paris and milan watching the uh fashion trends . industrial designer: project manager: you know yourself . marketing: so user interface: marketing: so just to summarise the most important things which came out of the remote control market investigation . the most important thing was that the thing sort of look and felt fancy rather than just functional . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: and second , there should be some technological innovation . and then third and l less important than the other two , there should be an ease of use as well . and apparently , the fashion trends are that people want sort of clothes and shoes and things with a fruit and vegetables theme . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um but um the feel of the material should be spongy , industrial designer: marketing: which is contrary to last year , apparently . i presume it must have been not not spongy last year . project manager: user interface: marketing: so we need to emphasise the fancy design with on on our remote control above all else . and then also try and add in technological informat innovation which could be our sort of find the thing with a hand clap . and then we need to ma sort of make it easy to use that 's as a third priority , so perhaps um fewer fewer buttons and functions as we 've as we 've discussed . user interface: marketing: and then maybe find a way to incorporate these trends so that we sort of capture people 's imaginations . so maybe we could make the buttons shaped like fruit and veg , or the the buttons could be spongy , uh somehow . maybe we could make them out of rubber rather than sort of hard plastic . and then sort of even wackier than that , we could maybe have a fruit or vegetable shaped remote , say in the shape of a banana or something like that . right , so that 'll be it . user interface: marketing: maybe a banana or courgette or something . project manager: marketing: how how far we actually want to go along and sort of follow the trends , do we think the trends are particularly important for this type of gadget , or or you know , do they not matter that much ? user interface: i think if you start making the buttons fruit shaped , it might make it more complicated to use . project manager: well you were just talking about you 've got to be careful how you shape your buttons , 'cause you 're can mis-direct people . and i would 've thought the functionality 'cause the people get cheesed off by things by having to read instructions et cetera , so . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: .. . user interface: maybe just one button , say the standby button is quite kinda separate from all the other functions . maybe that could be a little apple . marketing: maybe yeah . project manager: okay . now ? yeah . user interface: and then that would n't get in the way of like kinda one to nine , industrial designer: user interface: and it would n't confuse the numbers . project manager: stand-by button . no th that that incorporates the trend whilst at the same time not confusing people , if you 're looking for functionality . industrial designer: marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: well i dunno i i guess maybe fruit and vegetables may be popular at the moment , but as we know how fickle the fashion markets are , project manager: but what are they gon na be next yeah . what are they gon na be next year . industrial designer: maybe marketing: yeah yeah . user interface: hmm . s project manager: but but th but okay but you you can incorporate the tr if y if you change all the buttons then you 've got the problem that this year 's fruit and veg , next year 's uh i was gon na say animals or elephants or w whatever . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah , project manager: that means you 're constantly changing your production schedule , marketing: i 'm not project manager: and you 've got ta make different moulds and everything else , marketing: yeah . project manager: so that 's not a good idea i would i would suggest . marketing: i 'm not i 'm not sure what what what the sort of timescale we 're thinking of selling the product over is . i do n't know . industrial designer: i mean it just seems realistic that the remote control market is n't the kind of thing which takes in those kinds of fashion trends . marketing: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: to something which is maybe more universal . project manager: well user interface: but i suppose as long as it 's quite a subtle design , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: um even if the design kind of changes , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: we c maybe can imply a fruit shape possibly . project manager: ah d d but if marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: maybe the spongy feel is something we could think about , um . project manager: mm-hmm . well . yep . industrial designer: maybe still with a rubber design we could project manager: was that in the sort of fashion sense that this or was the spongy feel was that uh sort of fashion ? it was , was n't it ? marketing: yeah . project manager: so the user interface: it seems like you 're gon na have rubber cases , as well as buttons . marketing: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: um . user interface: and that you can make them curved or double-curved and that would be the kind of sleek and sexy look . industrial designer: oh yeah yeah one of the things were if you had rubber buttons then you had to have a rubber case . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um oh no no no user interface: oh right , that fits , does n't it ? industrial designer: sorry it 's if you use the uh rubber double curved case then you must use rubber buttons . that 's the way round . if you have the rubber case then you have to have the rubber buttons to go with it . which makes sense . user interface: right . project manager: rubber buttons require rubber case . industrial designer: um . user interface: and that would fit in with what we want , would n't it , for the spongy feel , to have everything rubber . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh so , yeah . the m the main problem is how f how frequently do the fashions change ? 'cause in essence in the production you want things to stay you want to basically mint them out marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause if you 've got fashion changes and that you 're incorporating , then it means that your stock is um is last year 's stock marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and therefore you 're selling it or having to sell it at a discounted rate which you would n't want to do . whereas if you kept the product the same but you could have a difference from year to year , uh it seems to me that you could incorporate a fashion statement if you like , rather than changing the whole kit and caboodle . marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: you 're just changing one aspect like like the standby button or something like that , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: and especially 'cause then you could make it something that industrial designer: i suppose we maybe are limited in the fact that we still have to put the logo on the actual marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: well , you might be limited in space , that yes . industrial designer: would or not . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: well you two are obviously gon na find that out fairly quickly when you move over to your kit modelling stage as to uh how much pl how much how much how pliable is plasticine . user interface: hmm . industrial designer: yes yes . user interface: industrial designer: maybe we could think of the the cases like changing with the fashions project manager: industrial designer: like the nokia phones where you could take the casing off the outside . but whether that would be too much to incorporate in production , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: whether that would just increase the costs , project manager: hmm . industrial designer: make it more complicated . project manager: so you 're talking there about uh changing changing the casing . marketing: that 's possibly it . industrial designer: yeah the a the actual the sort of the look from the outside , so where the buttons would stay the same , and the general function of the remote would stay the same , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but you could change the the way it looked . user interface: yeah and then you could have oh but you still would have to have the logo on every new case , industrial designer: yeah , that 's true . user interface: but you could have like pink cases for girls and red ones and things like that . project manager: yeah you you could do a colour change , so therefore you would yeah yeah i mean that 's effectively what they did with the with the mobile phones , was to have some in blue , some in red , some in rather than all in black industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: or , you know , which four do you want , as long as it 's black ? user interface: hmm . project manager: but uh so industrial designer: so it is a possibility , um . user interface: but we are supposed to use the um company colour scheme , are n't we ? project manager: yes oh that 's true user interface: we have n't really seen that yet industrial designer: oh okay yes project manager: uh that might no marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that is user interface: it might and we might be able to do both but it might clash with certain things . project manager: well not necessarily , because you could have your company uh we 're we 're meant to be finishing up . you could have your company badge and logo . i mean a lot of um computers for instance like like on the one you 've got there , it actually has a sort of um stick on badge marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so what you would al all you would really need , whether it , you know , whether the casing be w any colour , could be any colour , but that badge would then have to stick out on top of it so that uh in a sense , with a with a logo like that , because it 's on a white background , the only colour that it might not stick out so well on would be a white casing . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause you you know you 're sort of you 're badging it . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and in fact a lot of companies get somebody else to make them and literally just badge them themselves with their own uh badge over the top . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: and in fact the way they 've got that there even if you had that on a white , which is the predominant colour of the uh the windows badge , you 'd still be able to see it clearly from you know a white casing uh product . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: so . industrial designer: and whether we 'd have a big enough market to have this kind of like secondary market of selling the cases might be something to consider . user interface: hmm . project manager: user interface: well if it 's for young people , um like the phone generation , that sort of thing 'd probably go down well , marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and the market research has been on that side of things , has n't it ? marketing: yeah , i mean it 's people say that it 's the look , they want the fancy looking thing but i 'm yeah . i 'm not convinced on whether having changeable covers would be something that people would buy into . i think with the mobiles , it 's the , you know it 's a communication device , people see you with it all about and industrial designer: yeah i suppose , user interface: industrial designer: where you you keep the remote hidden under the sofa most of the time . marketing: i if it project manager: it 's uh in in the house , is n't it , i suppose . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay , so if we just went for one colour of a rubber case marketing: i think project manager: so do n't change case . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: change case colour . and we 're sort of saying no to that . user interface: did we decide on the rubber case ? the spongy feel , or did we think that that might go as a trend ? marketing: well , it was different last year . the trend was different last year apparently . it was not not spongy feel . but i do n't know whether the trend will change . i do n't know whether it 's one of those things that like sort of having all fruit shaped keys , that that probably would go out of fashion very quickly , project manager: yeah . marketing: whereas just the fact that it was a rubber case is probably less less of something that y you 're gon na end up hating in a year , you know . industrial designer: yeah , less likely to project manager: sounds reasonable . if you 're going for fashion trends like that they 'll need t you 'd have to have interchangeable cases industrial designer: so then th th that would project manager: so that you could industrial designer: yeah . project manager: or 'cause otherwise someone 's gon na have to buy a complete new remote rather than just a case . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: it seems to make sense that we we 'd just maybe stick with the standard rubber case , marketing: mm . industrial designer: and then have the standard rubber buttons as well . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . industrial designer: um . user interface: uh we have n't really talked about uh the curvature of the case . there 's flat , marketing: user interface: there 's single-curved and there 's double-curved . industrial designer: um . mayb user interface: i 'm not exactly sure what these things look like . industrial designer: maybe curves give it like the slightly more aesthetic feel ? but the double curve would n't require us to perform miracles with the plasticine . user interface: marketing: project manager: user interface: well it says that marketing: when you say d when you say double-curved , what what exactly does that mean ? user interface: i 'm not exactly sure . um i 'll show you the remotes that i 've got . marketing: okay . user interface: see how uh let 's just get that bigger . see how uh the one oh i 'm not plugged in , am i ? marketing: no you 're not connected to me anymore . industrial designer: user interface: that does n't help . project manager: one one thing to cons user interface: shall i just turn it round for time ? project manager: one thing to consider is that in some ways you want um by having a fairly standard case it means they can all fit together on top of each other marketing: that should come up . project manager: therefore for storage purposes in shops and the like and it makes it easier that you can if you can store them up on top of each other . marketing: mm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: whereas if you do um fancy things with it , you then got ta put it in a ca a a packaging box that that does that . and the cost of packaging could be quite important vis-a-vis the total cost of the product . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so shall we go through quickly and just work out what we 've decide on , if we have to kind of project manager: so but marketing: yeah . user interface: um it 's not very clear up there , project manager: no . user interface: but you can see some of them have got kind of bulges , like the second one and the end one uh where there 's a curve there . project manager: mm yep . marketing: right . user interface: i 'm not exactl i do n't know if a double curve is maybe it comes up slightly , or ? marketing: that 's what i was trying to work out . user interface: but um it is a kinda sleeker look if you 've got curves in there . project manager: oh right . s so do you wan na go for curves , more curves ? marketing: shall we industrial designer: project manager: we 're meant to be f we 're meant to be finishing this meeting in about a minute or so . user interface: definitely a single , maybe a double . industrial designer: 'kay , so shall we quickly marketing: yeah . user interface: shall we go for single curve , just to compromise ? industrial designer: we 'll go for single curve , yeah . project manager: okay , industrial designer: single curve . user interface: marketing: okay . project manager: curved or double curved ? so it 's single curved . industrial designer: so did we did we decide on the kinetic power supply ? the one you move around ? user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah i think that think that 's a good idea . project manager: yep . industrial designer: okay . um user interface: and the rubber push buttons , rubber case . marketing: rubber rubber buttons and case . user interface: um and we do n't really know much about the colour scheme or logo yet do we , industrial designer: oh we ca user interface: but possibly a sticker . industrial designer: yeah yeah , we 'll still have the are we gon na go for the simple circuit board just to keep the cost down ? i th i think we can by by not having anything too complicated . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah and and the voice recognition , we can use that ca n't we , just to find it . without affecting the circuit board . project manager: yes . yep . industrial designer: um . marketing: yeah yeah . industrial designer: and see we could always decide against it if something comes up that 's just something to that we seemed to leave out . marketing: okay . and then are we going for sort of one button shaped like a fruit . or veg . user interface: yeah that sounds like it would n't do too much harm in a couple of years . uh what sort of shape do we want ? project manager: so we 've got spongy feel buttons as well , have we ? marketing: do n't know , maybe just project manager: as well as or w or was that marketing: yeah . that 's ru rubber buttons , yeah . project manager: so it 's rubber buttons , industrial designer: yeah , it was just project manager: so it 's not really spongy feel buttons , it 's just rubber buttons . with a rubber case right ? industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , so it 's not too wacky . marketing: reasonably spongy i guess , yeah . project manager: and the standby button is gon na be different . marketing: yeah okay . user interface: um i think an apple would be a good recognisable shape . if you start getting into kinda aubergines and things , it gets a bit weird . marketing: project manager: okay so what what shape are we making the standby button ? marketing: yeah . apple ? project manager: a apple . user interface: vote ? project manager: oh oh sorry ? industrial designer: marketing: yeah . user interface: shall we vote on it ? industrial designer: we will go for the a a a apples apples . marketing: yeah . user interface: anyone got any suggestions ? marketing: apple apple a a qu quite a big one , as well . project manager: user interface: okay . ah . marketing: a big apple . uh user interface: well it could be red . project manager: marketing: could be a red apple , yeah . either , do n't mind . project manager: a red apple ? is it ? user interface: yeah 'cause we wan na incorporate a bit of colour if we can , once we find out um industrial designer: okay . and then we 're gon na are you gon na work on keeping the button design quite simple ? just like the just working out what we 're gon na do for the next time . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um . user interface: yeah . yeah that seems pretty straight forward . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: 'cause most of them will just be kind of mainly circular or like very plain . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: mm-hmm . okay . project manager: sorry what was that last thing again there ? user interface: uh just to keep the shape of the buttons simple . project manager: right much option on that . i thought you were going for a single curve and user interface: ah just the uh shape of the buttons . project manager: alright . industrial designer: and j yeah , just keeping the sort of the labelling them labelling of them fairly simple as well . fairly sort of self explanatory . user interface: yeah . project manager: right , so shape of buttons simple . okay . so that 's that , i guess . we should now go away and get these things sorted out . i guess you two are on plasticine duty or whatever . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: okay . project manager: okay , so um . industrial designer: is that the end ? okay . marketing: looks like it . project manager: okay .

marketing suggested that the fancy design on the remote control is important to customers according to his research , so the buttons could be shaped like fruit and vegetables , and the buttons could be made out of rubber rather than hard plastic .

what did user interface suggest about the shape of the button when discussing the design of the remote ? </s> project manager: okay . right . conceptual design meeting . right . okay , so right well um from the last meeting i was trying to send you the minutes , but uh it did n't work out too well , so maybe in sort of um quick summary of the last uh meeting , i can quickly give you what we what we had . user interface: project manager: uh right , so wishing i had n't closed the damn right so we had the fact that we 're gon na have the the logo uh the company logo in its uh colour scheme incorporated onto the the device the remote device . we had uh made our decisions about uh made our decisions about uh the device itself , that it was gon na be simple to make it uh enable us to complete the project in time . we 're gon na have uh effectively two pages , a front page which had the uh features that the uh the customers most wanted , and then the uh the backup features on the second page so that it could uh meet the technical requirements . and the customers would n't have to look at them too often , only as and when required . so . so basically what decisions uh have we uh made ? uh have there been any uh changes ? industrial designer: i think we all have a presentation again , project manager: right . industrial designer: so if we go through those and then um marketing: yeah . project manager: three presentation , yeah . industrial designer: . shall i go first again ? project manager: so yeah , fine . marketing: okay . industrial designer: i see this a little more smoothly than the last one . project manager: industrial designer: okay right , let 's get started . um basically the uh for the um i 'll back actually . for the components design , um next step is basically the the way the remote 's gon na work is still the same idea as before . we still have the user interface which is all the buttons we 're gon na incorporate . then there is a chip and still the sender . so um yes including the power s supply as well . um i 'll go on to my findings in each of these areas . uh first in the power supply , we have the option of just the standard battery , um . there 's a dynamo . any of you think of kind of like the the old torches which you wind up um . there 's a kinetic option , which if any of you 've seen those new watches which you kind of you power up by waving around , um it just requires a small amount of movement which would mean the batteries would n't have to be replaced . um that 's one option , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but i think that was gon na cost a little more . and then there 's solar cells . um as a final option . for the buttons , we have um an integrated push button , which is oh just to say all all these are um supplied by real reaction . so i guess for the ease of for quickness and ease we should take them from at least like one of these options . project manager: okay . industrial designer: um so for the buttons there 's an integrated push button , which i guess is just the same as the standard ones . this says it 's uh similar to uh the button on the mouse for a normal for like uh like modern computer . um there 's a scroll wheel which is you know the new mouse has just got like the centre section which you can scroll up and down , which may be for the volume . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: you could do do that . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um one issue for the buttons is , depending on which material we use , if we use rubber buttons then it requires a rubber case , so we have to take that into consideration . um moving on to the printed s project manager: what would be the cost do do we know ? industrial designer: um that 's on the next project manager: industrial designer: i th i think the there was n't too much difference in the cost , that that related to the actual buttons , but it does affect the printed circuit board . um which is the next section . basically for the circuit board which is the middle , it 's just see it down there the chips like the like the workings of the actual um of the remote . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: the firm supplies a simple , a regular and an advanced um circuit board . and there 's different prices according to each . so if we 've got the scroll wheel for one of the buttons , that would require a slightly more advanced circuit board than if we just had a standard um push button . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um one final thing we came up with was some information on the speech recognition . there 's a small unit available through the company um which obviously would be an extra cost , but it would n't affect the size of the remote too much . um and i guess that would require a more advanced circuit board , so there is an extra price in that sense . there is th sorry an extra cost in that sense . um going to my personal preferences , um i thought possibly for power we could use kinetic um which is the idea of the watches um that you move you move the remote around to power it up . and this would avoid batteries running out , having to replace batteries and such like . um for the buttons , i thought we 'd probably get away with just having the standard um push buttons rather than the scroll wheel . um and for the circuit board , again depends on which features we want in the actual in the remote . so if we wanted the scroll wheel and wanted the voice recognition , um then we 'd have to get a a more costly circuit board . and that 's it . marketing: 'kay . project manager: with the printed circuit boards you were going for the user interface: thanks . industrial designer: um i it kind of depends um if we 're gon na have the speech recognition , we 'd have to probably get an advanced one . i 'm guessing . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh but i do n't know , so that is something i 'll have to look into . project manager: but are we going f r right . industrial designer: um that 's a that 's a decision for all of us . um . project manager: so are we able to make that decision now in a sense that this is the point at which we 're discussing that issue , industrial designer: yeah yeah . we decide . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so would it not be best to rather than i mean one way is to do each of the presentations and then make decisions going back to the various presentations as they were . the other way would be to do the presentation marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then make the decision at that point in time . industrial designer: um . maybe w user interface: yeah , that 's probably a better one , to discuss it straight away . project manager: 'cause at that point then you 've got the details up there , so if we wanted to know for instance that the scroll wheel required the regular and what required advance . then if we were able to see that down then we could make the decision at that point in time industrial designer: um . project manager: and then that would be the end of that issue . does that make sense ? industrial designer: yes . user interface: um i have a lot of the information there . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: it might not be very clear . industrial designer: is there user interface: unless you want to plug it back in to yours . industrial designer: um . we could do , yeah . um yeah we should . project manager: industrial designer: as i say it only specified that we need a more advanced circuit board for the scroll wheel , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it did n't the voice recognition came as a separate piece of information . um . project manager: no the scroll wheel required the regular , so the industrial designer: yeah if if you down um . it 's just this bit at the bottom which i 've highlighted , project manager: hmm . industrial designer: but the scroll wheel requires a mini m minimally a regular chip , project manager: industrial designer: which is in the higher price range . project manager: okay . the display requires an advanced chip user interface: i think the scroll wheel um project manager: the display requires an advanced chip which in turn is more expense . industrial designer: also the display 's for something else which we decided against . um but that bit project manager: okay . industrial designer: and note that the push button just requires a simple chip , so that would keep the price down . project manager: down . user interface: yeah , and if we 're going for sleek and sexy , i think a scroll wheel is maybe a bit kinda bulky ? marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i i 've got um pictures well i 've seen pictures with it kind of sticking off the side of it , project manager: right . okay . user interface: and they do n't really look great . industrial designer: 'kay . so maybe just a simple push button , and that would cut costs on the project manager: so . so we 're going for p okay . so is um marketing: so are we going for the w are we going for the simple one , are we ? user interface: yeah , a simple pushbuttons . project manager: simple push button . marketing: okay . industrial designer: did everyone get this on the speech recognition ? the um it was basically what we said before , the idea that you record in a set message , and then it picks up that message um and replies to you . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so it is basically the concept we discussed before . um but then we do n't know for sure whether it would require a more complicated circuit board . marketing: industrial designer: i 'm guessing it would , but got like the definite information . maybe we should go on what we 're certain of rather than project manager: so if we go for the simple push button , so effectively we 're going for the simple printed circuit board are we ? or are we going for the regular ? industrial designer: um if it 's just the push button then it just needs the simple circuit board . project manager: mm-mm . but is there any other i mean okay , that 's true for the for for that element , but we have to take all el elements into consideration . and so if there is one element that requires the more expensive one , or say the regular one , or the more advanced , then that would have to be the same for all of them . s marketing: mm . user interface: hmm . but marketing: i suppose we need we need to find out what circuit board that requires , maybe before we m make a decision . project manager: right . user interface: but the way that i interpret that um it does n't seem to send out a signal to the telly , it just it 's like a parrot just rep reply replying to your message . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: oh yeah , i suppose so , yeah . industrial designer: so maybe that would be something separate , yeah . user interface: so i do n't think it would effect our circuit board . project manager: no . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: okay , so we 'd have a simple circuit board project manager: industrial designer: and that would be an extra that would be in addition to it . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: oh that makes sense . user interface: and i do n't think you could really perform any of the remote functions with it . marketing: yeah . user interface: 'cause the example that they 've given there is good morning coffee machine , good morning jo . project manager: mm-mm . user interface: it might be useful to say like where are you remote . here i am , jo . industrial designer: okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: user interface: but i think that 's maybe as far as that one could go ? project manager: okay . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah that makes sense , so we 'd stick with the simple circuit board and then think of the speech recognition as an extra an extra possibility . user interface: yeah , just as a fun way to find it . project manager: industrial designer: okay . um . project manager: simple circuit board . simple push button . okay . w w kinetic . user interface: and it says that project manager: you were you were wanting to go for the kinetic power supply . user interface: i think it said the cost of that is n't too much . industrial designer: um yeah i i thought so just for just for ease of not having to replace the batteries . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um . project manager: and how does it get uh charged up ? industrial designer: it 's um i think it works on the basis they have some kind of ball bearings inside . it 's um it 's some on watches which you you kind of you shake to power it up . somehow the mechanism inside powers up through movement . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so you 'd you 'd move the remote around a little bit and then that powers it up to use it . project manager: okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: so the speech recognition was are we going for speech recognition ? no ? 'cause that required the advanced user interface: um i think it would be helpful to find it , but i do n't think it 'd um marketing: just industrial designer: uh yeah i think did we decide it did n't affect the circuit board , it just affected user interface: yeah , i think so . marketing: just just for the call and find thing . industrial designer: it was just project manager: i had speech recognition requires advanced req require industrial designer: oh no th that 's what that 's what i thought , but maybe maybe it does n't . project manager: oh . industrial designer: um i think i might have got that wrong . project manager: so okay . marketing: 'cause it 's s it 's separate is n't it , project manager: speech recognition you reckon then is s simple . marketing: it 's not part of the industrial designer: it 's it 's just an addition thing it 's um yeah . project manager: and so we would want it in as an extra because it does n't appear to cost too much . would that be industrial designer: 'kay . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: 'kay shall i pass on to you now ? user interface: i think project manager: in fact , it would n't really cost anymore , would it ? user interface: i 'll just just check what it said . actually i do n't think it really says anything about the cost , but it says that it 's already in the coffee machines , so like it 's already kind of marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i assume it would cost extra , but maybe we maybe we 'll find out how much that does cost and have to decide slightly later . project manager: and then have to change all change everything at the last minute . user interface: project manager: okay . s user interface: um . oh , that was quick . um okay , so very brief presentation , um . from looking at the remotes that are out there at the minute , none of them are particularly um sleek and sexy . um i have n't actually got the examples of the scroll button there , um but there 's some curved cases that you can see , uh a range of sizes uh . all of them have a lot of buttons there um they seem to just have the rubber buttons . does that move it ? project manager: sorry ? user interface: it just seems to be skipping on without us doing anything . project manager: yeah , i 've found that try and get it back . industrial designer: if you right click and then go onto a previous slide . user interface: ah it 's alright . industrial designer: okay , right . user interface: um . there was n't much more to say about that , just rambling . um some of the uh remotes that i looked at , one of the models da did actually have voice recognition where you could um where it was connected to the remote control functions . and uh it was quite uh a swish model , where it can control uh four devices , tv , cable , satellite , video , d_v_d_ , audio . um so that 's a bit of competition there . so i mean maybe it 's better not to try and compete with that sort of thing and just to market it as a completely different um like different viewpoint as a kind of finding your lost control industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: rather than trying to compete with the functions . um the scroll buttons , as you 've already mentioned , um there 's examples of those , but they do n't look as sleek as other models . and there 's no real advantage and because it impacts on other on the materials and the price it 's not great . industrial designer: on the price , yeah . project manager: so you were saying the scroll buttons user interface: um yeah . th there was a specialist type of remote that we could think about , um . there was children 's remote , where um they just had a very limited range of buttons and they were b uh bright and colourful and um you you could program them so that they could only look at certain channels . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: 'kay . user interface: um but i do n't know if that 's really in our field ? industrial designer: i guess i guess we 're going for the biggest market , maybe not , user interface: but that 's something that 's out there . industrial designer: but was it was it specified that we went for the biggest ? project manager: well we 're to go for the international market rather than a local market but that that would n't necessarily preclude user interface: hmm . project manager: the one thing that you can often do with products is you can uh make small modifications . so you have your basic model which you would sell at whatever , and then you could have additional features in you know like a you 'd have model one , model two and model three , and therefore you can sub-divide your market up . but that 's really where your field is . user interface: marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: industrial designer: so maybe the children 's remote should be like a a next step , but maybe i dunno for ours , maybe we should project manager: anyway you could add on for an extra package , but on this basic one i 'm reckoning that we 're going for the basic model to be discussed here and that uh you would have for future reference the possibility of adding in extra features at extra cost to take care of specialist market segments . user interface: hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: okay . project manager: is that user interface: right well that 's something that we can be aware of . project manager: so so what are we deciding to do here ? user interface: um . i think because there 's already um very good voice recognition technology out there , and because ours might not cover the same functions that the leading brands do , it might be a good idea to market it as a um finder function . project manager: right . mm-hmm . uh the fi yeah , the finder function rather than as a speech function to find your remote . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so you also said for going for the international market um that some some maybe older people might not like the speech recognition . s s so um user interface: oh yeah . different languages might not be compatible . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . it w it would make it quite complicated , project manager: hmm . industrial designer: where um ours at least keeps it fairly simple and then the user interface: hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , 'cause i think you program um this one yourself , like to say like whatever you want to your question . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah and ours is quite a cheap device , so i do n't know how much we 'll be able to put into it . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so you 'd have a finder feature rather than a voice recognition feature . marketing: yeah . user interface: hmm . project manager: and you were talking user interface: maybe unless something else comes up . project manager: mm . and you were talking about scroll buttons ? user interface: um yeah i think um i think we 've decided that it 's gon na increase the cost project manager: okay . user interface: and give no real kinda extra benefit project manager: b industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and it 's gon na decrease from the sleekness of it . project manager: alright , so we 're just gon na have the the rubber buttons , was that right ? industrial designer: yes yes . user interface: hmm um and just to be aware that there are kind of specialist functions and specialist remotes but we probably do n't want to focus on those like such as the children 's remote . project manager: okay . so not to be focused on . user interface: yeah . um there was a mention just as kind of a warning about button design . um just to avoid ambiguity . so it gave the example of say your volume buttons for up and down , they might both have a v_ on for volume , um let 's think how they did this . project manager: good in in flip it round in ninety degree a hundred and eighty degrees and have it up and down . user interface: i 'm just gon na check so i do this right . project manager: an upside-down v_ . so that would show that volume was going up , whereas the one underneath would see the volume going down . user interface: um . what did they say ? um i think the thing was that if you decide to do this , to have triangular buttons , um somebody might look at this one and say oh well this triangular button is pointing up , and that 's the first thing that they see project manager: right . user interface: actually that ca n't be right , can it ? oh well , no , they might see yeah , they might see this pointing down and think right that 's gon na turn the volume down , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: whereas the actual button 's pointing up , so the function is to turn the button up . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so , be careful what you put on the buttons industrial designer: so maybe we could have like user interface: and be careful of the shape that you make them , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because they might be kind of two um contradicting kind of shapes . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah i i know what you mean . so maybe we could have volume written on the side and then up and down on the on the buttons themselves . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: you could have volume up and volume industrial designer: possible . project manager: volume up , down and like that . industrial designer: mm . project manager: and 'cause the idea was to have limited um it was to have sizable amount of information on it . limited number of buttons . industrial designer: yeah yeah . project manager: 'cause it was sixteen buttons , was n't it that were industrial designer: yeah . yeah we got it down to not too many . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: um and i think that 's all i had to say for that . marketing: okay . user interface: um so what was the decision on the um design of the volume button ? industrial designer: um are we are we gon na go through the design of all the buttons at the moment , or are we gon na t marketing: i 've i 've got some things to say about possible design things from trend watching . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , maybe we should see yours first . user interface: oh okay . marketing: cool . right , um i 've been looking at some trends in in sort of basically fashion on top of doing the um research into the remote control market the the one that 's the one i talked about last time , that we 'd sort of asked people about remote controls and what what was good about them , what was bad , what they used . and we 've also been looking at sort of fa sort of fashions and what people are wanting out of consumer goods at the moment . so we 've had people in paris and milan watching the uh fashion trends . industrial designer: project manager: you know yourself . marketing: so user interface: marketing: so just to summarise the most important things which came out of the remote control market investigation . the most important thing was that the thing sort of look and felt fancy rather than just functional . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: and second , there should be some technological innovation . and then third and l less important than the other two , there should be an ease of use as well . and apparently , the fashion trends are that people want sort of clothes and shoes and things with a fruit and vegetables theme . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um but um the feel of the material should be spongy , industrial designer: marketing: which is contrary to last year , apparently . i presume it must have been not not spongy last year . project manager: user interface: marketing: so we need to emphasise the fancy design with on on our remote control above all else . and then also try and add in technological informat innovation which could be our sort of find the thing with a hand clap . and then we need to ma sort of make it easy to use that 's as a third priority , so perhaps um fewer fewer buttons and functions as we 've as we 've discussed . user interface: marketing: and then maybe find a way to incorporate these trends so that we sort of capture people 's imaginations . so maybe we could make the buttons shaped like fruit and veg , or the the buttons could be spongy , uh somehow . maybe we could make them out of rubber rather than sort of hard plastic . and then sort of even wackier than that , we could maybe have a fruit or vegetable shaped remote , say in the shape of a banana or something like that . right , so that 'll be it . user interface: marketing: maybe a banana or courgette or something . project manager: marketing: how how far we actually want to go along and sort of follow the trends , do we think the trends are particularly important for this type of gadget , or or you know , do they not matter that much ? user interface: i think if you start making the buttons fruit shaped , it might make it more complicated to use . project manager: well you were just talking about you 've got to be careful how you shape your buttons , 'cause you 're can mis-direct people . and i would 've thought the functionality 'cause the people get cheesed off by things by having to read instructions et cetera , so . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: .. . user interface: maybe just one button , say the standby button is quite kinda separate from all the other functions . maybe that could be a little apple . marketing: maybe yeah . project manager: okay . now ? yeah . user interface: and then that would n't get in the way of like kinda one to nine , industrial designer: user interface: and it would n't confuse the numbers . project manager: stand-by button . no th that that incorporates the trend whilst at the same time not confusing people , if you 're looking for functionality . industrial designer: marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: well i dunno i i guess maybe fruit and vegetables may be popular at the moment , but as we know how fickle the fashion markets are , project manager: but what are they gon na be next yeah . what are they gon na be next year . industrial designer: maybe marketing: yeah yeah . user interface: hmm . s project manager: but but th but okay but you you can incorporate the tr if y if you change all the buttons then you 've got the problem that this year 's fruit and veg , next year 's uh i was gon na say animals or elephants or w whatever . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah , project manager: that means you 're constantly changing your production schedule , marketing: i 'm not project manager: and you 've got ta make different moulds and everything else , marketing: yeah . project manager: so that 's not a good idea i would i would suggest . marketing: i 'm not i 'm not sure what what what the sort of timescale we 're thinking of selling the product over is . i do n't know . industrial designer: i mean it just seems realistic that the remote control market is n't the kind of thing which takes in those kinds of fashion trends . marketing: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: to something which is maybe more universal . project manager: well user interface: but i suppose as long as it 's quite a subtle design , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: um even if the design kind of changes , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: we c maybe can imply a fruit shape possibly . project manager: ah d d but if marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: maybe the spongy feel is something we could think about , um . project manager: mm-hmm . well . yep . industrial designer: maybe still with a rubber design we could project manager: was that in the sort of fashion sense that this or was the spongy feel was that uh sort of fashion ? it was , was n't it ? marketing: yeah . project manager: so the user interface: it seems like you 're gon na have rubber cases , as well as buttons . marketing: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: um . user interface: and that you can make them curved or double-curved and that would be the kind of sleek and sexy look . industrial designer: oh yeah yeah one of the things were if you had rubber buttons then you had to have a rubber case . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um oh no no no user interface: oh right , that fits , does n't it ? industrial designer: sorry it 's if you use the uh rubber double curved case then you must use rubber buttons . that 's the way round . if you have the rubber case then you have to have the rubber buttons to go with it . which makes sense . user interface: right . project manager: rubber buttons require rubber case . industrial designer: um . user interface: and that would fit in with what we want , would n't it , for the spongy feel , to have everything rubber . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh so , yeah . the m the main problem is how f how frequently do the fashions change ? 'cause in essence in the production you want things to stay you want to basically mint them out marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause if you 've got fashion changes and that you 're incorporating , then it means that your stock is um is last year 's stock marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and therefore you 're selling it or having to sell it at a discounted rate which you would n't want to do . whereas if you kept the product the same but you could have a difference from year to year , uh it seems to me that you could incorporate a fashion statement if you like , rather than changing the whole kit and caboodle . marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: you 're just changing one aspect like like the standby button or something like that , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: and especially 'cause then you could make it something that industrial designer: i suppose we maybe are limited in the fact that we still have to put the logo on the actual marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: well , you might be limited in space , that yes . industrial designer: would or not . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: well you two are obviously gon na find that out fairly quickly when you move over to your kit modelling stage as to uh how much pl how much how much how pliable is plasticine . user interface: hmm . industrial designer: yes yes . user interface: industrial designer: maybe we could think of the the cases like changing with the fashions project manager: industrial designer: like the nokia phones where you could take the casing off the outside . but whether that would be too much to incorporate in production , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: whether that would just increase the costs , project manager: hmm . industrial designer: make it more complicated . project manager: so you 're talking there about uh changing changing the casing . marketing: that 's possibly it . industrial designer: yeah the a the actual the sort of the look from the outside , so where the buttons would stay the same , and the general function of the remote would stay the same , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but you could change the the way it looked . user interface: yeah and then you could have oh but you still would have to have the logo on every new case , industrial designer: yeah , that 's true . user interface: but you could have like pink cases for girls and red ones and things like that . project manager: yeah you you could do a colour change , so therefore you would yeah yeah i mean that 's effectively what they did with the with the mobile phones , was to have some in blue , some in red , some in rather than all in black industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: or , you know , which four do you want , as long as it 's black ? user interface: hmm . project manager: but uh so industrial designer: so it is a possibility , um . user interface: but we are supposed to use the um company colour scheme , are n't we ? project manager: yes oh that 's true user interface: we have n't really seen that yet industrial designer: oh okay yes project manager: uh that might no marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that is user interface: it might and we might be able to do both but it might clash with certain things . project manager: well not necessarily , because you could have your company uh we 're we 're meant to be finishing up . you could have your company badge and logo . i mean a lot of um computers for instance like like on the one you 've got there , it actually has a sort of um stick on badge marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so what you would al all you would really need , whether it , you know , whether the casing be w any colour , could be any colour , but that badge would then have to stick out on top of it so that uh in a sense , with a with a logo like that , because it 's on a white background , the only colour that it might not stick out so well on would be a white casing . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause you you know you 're sort of you 're badging it . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and in fact a lot of companies get somebody else to make them and literally just badge them themselves with their own uh badge over the top . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: and in fact the way they 've got that there even if you had that on a white , which is the predominant colour of the uh the windows badge , you 'd still be able to see it clearly from you know a white casing uh product . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: so . industrial designer: and whether we 'd have a big enough market to have this kind of like secondary market of selling the cases might be something to consider . user interface: hmm . project manager: user interface: well if it 's for young people , um like the phone generation , that sort of thing 'd probably go down well , marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and the market research has been on that side of things , has n't it ? marketing: yeah , i mean it 's people say that it 's the look , they want the fancy looking thing but i 'm yeah . i 'm not convinced on whether having changeable covers would be something that people would buy into . i think with the mobiles , it 's the , you know it 's a communication device , people see you with it all about and industrial designer: yeah i suppose , user interface: industrial designer: where you you keep the remote hidden under the sofa most of the time . marketing: i if it project manager: it 's uh in in the house , is n't it , i suppose . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay , so if we just went for one colour of a rubber case marketing: i think project manager: so do n't change case . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: change case colour . and we 're sort of saying no to that . user interface: did we decide on the rubber case ? the spongy feel , or did we think that that might go as a trend ? marketing: well , it was different last year . the trend was different last year apparently . it was not not spongy feel . but i do n't know whether the trend will change . i do n't know whether it 's one of those things that like sort of having all fruit shaped keys , that that probably would go out of fashion very quickly , project manager: yeah . marketing: whereas just the fact that it was a rubber case is probably less less of something that y you 're gon na end up hating in a year , you know . industrial designer: yeah , less likely to project manager: sounds reasonable . if you 're going for fashion trends like that they 'll need t you 'd have to have interchangeable cases industrial designer: so then th th that would project manager: so that you could industrial designer: yeah . project manager: or 'cause otherwise someone 's gon na have to buy a complete new remote rather than just a case . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: it seems to make sense that we we 'd just maybe stick with the standard rubber case , marketing: mm . industrial designer: and then have the standard rubber buttons as well . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . industrial designer: um . user interface: uh we have n't really talked about uh the curvature of the case . there 's flat , marketing: user interface: there 's single-curved and there 's double-curved . industrial designer: um . mayb user interface: i 'm not exactly sure what these things look like . industrial designer: maybe curves give it like the slightly more aesthetic feel ? but the double curve would n't require us to perform miracles with the plasticine . user interface: marketing: project manager: user interface: well it says that marketing: when you say d when you say double-curved , what what exactly does that mean ? user interface: i 'm not exactly sure . um i 'll show you the remotes that i 've got . marketing: okay . user interface: see how uh let 's just get that bigger . see how uh the one oh i 'm not plugged in , am i ? marketing: no you 're not connected to me anymore . industrial designer: user interface: that does n't help . project manager: one one thing to cons user interface: shall i just turn it round for time ? project manager: one thing to consider is that in some ways you want um by having a fairly standard case it means they can all fit together on top of each other marketing: that should come up . project manager: therefore for storage purposes in shops and the like and it makes it easier that you can if you can store them up on top of each other . marketing: mm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: whereas if you do um fancy things with it , you then got ta put it in a ca a a packaging box that that does that . and the cost of packaging could be quite important vis-a-vis the total cost of the product . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so shall we go through quickly and just work out what we 've decide on , if we have to kind of project manager: so but marketing: yeah . user interface: um it 's not very clear up there , project manager: no . user interface: but you can see some of them have got kind of bulges , like the second one and the end one uh where there 's a curve there . project manager: mm yep . marketing: right . user interface: i 'm not exactl i do n't know if a double curve is maybe it comes up slightly , or ? marketing: that 's what i was trying to work out . user interface: but um it is a kinda sleeker look if you 've got curves in there . project manager: oh right . s so do you wan na go for curves , more curves ? marketing: shall we industrial designer: project manager: we 're meant to be f we 're meant to be finishing this meeting in about a minute or so . user interface: definitely a single , maybe a double . industrial designer: 'kay , so shall we quickly marketing: yeah . user interface: shall we go for single curve , just to compromise ? industrial designer: we 'll go for single curve , yeah . project manager: okay , industrial designer: single curve . user interface: marketing: okay . project manager: curved or double curved ? so it 's single curved . industrial designer: so did we did we decide on the kinetic power supply ? the one you move around ? user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah i think that think that 's a good idea . project manager: yep . industrial designer: okay . um user interface: and the rubber push buttons , rubber case . marketing: rubber rubber buttons and case . user interface: um and we do n't really know much about the colour scheme or logo yet do we , industrial designer: oh we ca user interface: but possibly a sticker . industrial designer: yeah yeah , we 'll still have the are we gon na go for the simple circuit board just to keep the cost down ? i th i think we can by by not having anything too complicated . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah and and the voice recognition , we can use that ca n't we , just to find it . without affecting the circuit board . project manager: yes . yep . industrial designer: um . marketing: yeah yeah . industrial designer: and see we could always decide against it if something comes up that 's just something to that we seemed to leave out . marketing: okay . and then are we going for sort of one button shaped like a fruit . or veg . user interface: yeah that sounds like it would n't do too much harm in a couple of years . uh what sort of shape do we want ? project manager: so we 've got spongy feel buttons as well , have we ? marketing: do n't know , maybe just project manager: as well as or w or was that marketing: yeah . that 's ru rubber buttons , yeah . project manager: so it 's rubber buttons , industrial designer: yeah , it was just project manager: so it 's not really spongy feel buttons , it 's just rubber buttons . with a rubber case right ? industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , so it 's not too wacky . marketing: reasonably spongy i guess , yeah . project manager: and the standby button is gon na be different . marketing: yeah okay . user interface: um i think an apple would be a good recognisable shape . if you start getting into kinda aubergines and things , it gets a bit weird . marketing: project manager: okay so what what shape are we making the standby button ? marketing: yeah . apple ? project manager: a apple . user interface: vote ? project manager: oh oh sorry ? industrial designer: marketing: yeah . user interface: shall we vote on it ? industrial designer: we will go for the a a a apples apples . marketing: yeah . user interface: anyone got any suggestions ? marketing: apple apple a a qu quite a big one , as well . project manager: user interface: okay . ah . marketing: a big apple . uh user interface: well it could be red . project manager: marketing: could be a red apple , yeah . either , do n't mind . project manager: a red apple ? is it ? user interface: yeah 'cause we wan na incorporate a bit of colour if we can , once we find out um industrial designer: okay . and then we 're gon na are you gon na work on keeping the button design quite simple ? just like the just working out what we 're gon na do for the next time . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um . user interface: yeah . yeah that seems pretty straight forward . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: 'cause most of them will just be kind of mainly circular or like very plain . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: mm-hmm . okay . project manager: sorry what was that last thing again there ? user interface: uh just to keep the shape of the buttons simple . project manager: right much option on that . i thought you were going for a single curve and user interface: ah just the uh shape of the buttons . project manager: alright . industrial designer: and j yeah , just keeping the sort of the labelling them labelling of them fairly simple as well . fairly sort of self explanatory . user interface: yeah . project manager: right , so shape of buttons simple . okay . so that 's that , i guess . we should now go away and get these things sorted out . i guess you two are on plasticine duty or whatever . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: okay . project manager: okay , so um . industrial designer: is that the end ? okay . marketing: looks like it . project manager: okay .

user interface believed that fancy buttons might create lots of trouble for people to use the remote . so , he suggested that there could be only one fancy button . for example , the stand by button could be shaped like an apple , and all the other buttons could only stay in normal shape .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: uh it fell off . one , two , three , four , yeah , we 're ready . okay . welcome to this second meeting . um it 's now quarter after twelve and we 're given forty minutes um for this meeting . this is a meeting on functional design . um and i wan na welcome you all and thank you all for doing some research in between . um i did took the minutes from the first meeting and i 'll show them to you in a moment . um i know each of you have a presentation and um in thinking about the forty minutes , i thought it would take only like three minutes for the previous minutes , um each of you having about seven minutes or maybe a little more , maybe a little less for your pre presentations and a little discussion , because there 's i happen to have been told there were some new project requirements and we have to make some uh decision on what functions it will have . okay ? is this ap everybody agree with this ? industrial designer: oops . user interface: yes . marketing: yes . project manager: okay . um and after the meeting there 'll be things to be done and as you can see it says we get to get lunch , um and then some more individual work and then putting minutes away and individual actions . um but uh now for the minutes of the first meeting . and go to that one . um as you can see it was this earlier today . um kate , steph , sarah and myself in our four capacities were present . i opened the meeting , the product was developed uh and reviewed , and we talked about the financial end of it . um and it had some implications , um the four million sales target and new ideas of not too many buttons , bright colours and some of the influence of the japanese . and we closed early so you could then proceed with your research and getting your reports together for tod this meeting anybody have any questions on those minutes ? are they complete , did they discuss everything that we covered last time ? 'kay . industrial designer: uh i think so , project manager: did i miss something ? industrial designer: we we we talked about the the individual roles that we each had as well . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . i 'm afraid i incorporated that when i said who was present , but yes , we did , industrial designer: okay . project manager: and we did a little bit of uh team building of uh of making the pictures , marketing: okay , i accept the minutes . project manager: but i did n't think those were appropriate to the minutes necessarily . so um as a group i think we 've are they 're accepting the minutes . and uh okay . marketing: is that what we 're supposed to say ? project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , i do . project manager: good . um , then we 'll move to the three presentations . okay ? marketing: okay . project manager: okay . mm we need to move this . who wants to go f first ? that 's as far as it goes . user interface: uh not really meant to touch those microphones . oh it does n't have any on , does it ? that 's fine . marketing: excellent , thank you . industrial designer: oy , big loop under the table . project manager: she said we did n't need to screw it in . marketing: okay . okay , that looks good . project manager: it 's doing its thing . there we are . marketing: alright . thank you very much . um . one of the the biggest issues i found about um from last meeting was the fact that we need to sell four million of these um remote controls and i think that this is an opportunity to really take real reaction in the direction of of similar of handheld tools that have been used and are used by many of us and to kind of bring the remote control into the si same realm as an accessible um useful electronic device , as opposed to something that is lost in the couch and what have you . so um my main goal here is to re-envision the remote control in in this context and to think about menu functionality and current technology and the fact that it could be interactive with other tools . um some of the research uh in the market has shown that people really are not happy with remote controls as they are now , and um that means we do need to make some decisions about what what keys or or buttons on the on the remote control to perhaps keep and and what ones to discard . and if we devote some energy into this , i think the um recent productions of real reaction , the i go everywhere power and the high definition d_v_d_ players although it makes immediate sense to have our remote control interact with these , i think we can also use this as a platform to make it interact with other tools . and um in fact i think the high definition d_v_d_ players and all of this will come along in the uh will only benefit from the positive feedback from our well designed tool . so again , most uh users really dislike the current look and feel of remote controls . um fifty percent i think of all these uh numbers the most important is fifty percent of user say they only use ten percent of the buttons . and eighty percent of users , and if we think about this there are a lot of uh television , d_v_d_ , stereo remote control users out there , eighty percent would spend more money on a remote control that looks fancy . industrial designer: could can i ask where these figures come from , is this market research we 've marketing: um it was market research and there were a hundred people in the room , so eighty out of a hundred said they would spend more money . project manager: now in between , as the project manager , they sent me an email from the powers that be industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: um that teletext is outdated um marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and the internet is coming in as important , but that they want this remote control to only be for tv um with incorporating the corporate image , colour and slogan . marketing: mm-hmm . well i think we can i i think we can really focus on this remote and and again bring the real reaction um brand in in and and get some positive marketing for our other tools , even if we directly do n't um advertise for the i go everywhere line . project manager: mm . marketing: so an interesting um element was the would you pay more for speech recognition question . so these market research uh uh questionnaires looked into your your uh concern about technology project manager: hmm . industrial designer: marketing: and s specifically wanted to find out information about speech recognition . project manager: okay . marketing: now the early adopters , those of us who grew up with technology and uh luck lucky for us have the uh cash to to pay for it , the young age group without the mortgages and responsibilities , ninety one percent of them would pay more for speech recognition in a remote control . very interesting , i i leave this up to the group to decide if we wan na use this uh if and you know , the the designers , project manager: mm . marketing: but ninety one percent , fifteen to twenty five project manager: is that a large enough target market to target it ? marketing: well , i i i think especially in terms of growth , i think this would be a very smart group to target . i mean s three quarters of the next age group , twenty five to thirty five are interested , and uh with the technologies improving , if we can get these uh project manager: in real numbers , does the ninety one percent and the seventy six percent translate to ex in excess of the four million ? marketing: yeah . to um yes . project manager: or eight million . marketing: yes . but would you pay more and does it work and is it approachable and and did i know that it was it was an project manager: hmm . marketing: that 's a that 's a very good question . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um marketing: i do n't know if speech recognition should be um should be included , project manager: mm . marketing: but i think it 's an interesting i think that maybe shows more about uh being open to technology . project manager: mm . user interface: uh it definitely needs uh a lot more research marketing: shall i go back ? user interface: on like how much more it would be and any , you know , existing examples , marketing: yeah , yeah . user interface: and what reactions to them have been , and that sort of thing . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: how d i 'm wondering how how ou how our target price compares with the the typical price of these things . i expect an industrial designer should know that , but if we 're aiming to to build this thing for twelve euros fifty , um is that a lot or a little ? marketing: exactly . i mean i i i uh did not receive any information on that , but i think the competition , sussing out what other people are doing and what 's in the pipeline is very very important , because um there is a question about do you want an lcd screen and and that was n't responded to , but uh some of the larger remotes do have screens where you can navigate , you know , so it turns into something uh perhaps you all have seen uh the osbournes where ozzy osbourne is is attempting to manage his super entertainment system with something that looks like a uh a small tray . industrial designer: sh surely he 's in the wrong age group . marketing: you know , project manager: marketing: it 's i a and i think , you know industrial designer: he must be w one of a s small population . marketing: no , no , project manager: mm . marketing: you kate , you 're exactly right there . but i think the key is to get the early adopters , people who are familiar with technology and and uh they 'll be project manager: but we 're not looking at whether they 're early adopters on that screen , marketing: uh , mm . project manager: that 's looking at age groups . marketing: exactly . i yes , and i 'm making and i 'm making the the uh uh leap that people who are familiar younger people are l are more familiar with technology than than older people . or comfortable , project manager: leap . hmm . mm . marketing: you know , um so project manager: okay , you had the other power channel . marketing: i think the most important thing is an attractive streamlined remote control and to be extraordinarily reductionist , power , channel , volume and everything else is is uh up to the designers . and this is this is also supported by the market research . project manager: okay . marketing: thank you . that 's my contribution . project manager: alright . and we 'll turn to the next presentation . i think she said we do n't need to screw it in , just stick it in . and then press , what ? f f_n_ and f_ eight . next to the control button on the bottom , and then f_ eight at the top . user interface: yeah , press them . project manager: and then w be patient . user interface: yeah , here we go . project manager: tada . industrial designer: and if you want it to go into slide show mode , it 's that little button there . user interface: can i not just uh do each one in order ? industrial designer: i you can if you like , it it that that just sets it up to do a p a p project manager: there we are . yay . user interface: that ? industrial designer: no that one , that one there . user interface: that ? industrial designer: left , left a bit , left a bit , that one , yep . user interface: that ? right , technical functions design . uh well i think first off , basically i do agree with what sarah has defined as as uh your personal preferences , yeah . i think we need uh a more streamlined volume with no extraneous functions . so my method was to look at the existing remotes and what functions they have . and what we all need to discuss is whether we want these functions uh pretty much the same as what existing remotes have . if we can build on this with the speech recognition , that 's not something i 'd thought about at all , but it 's also something we can discuss . project manager: okay . user interface: um and and i presume we can miss out the functions really to to a video or d_v_d_ remote control , if this is only gon na be a , you know , satellite , cable , tv remote control . project manager: tv only . user interface: so these are two models of existing remote controls . uh the one on the left seems to be a fairly uh standard universal remote control . project manager: ugh . user interface: it has fast-forward , stop , play , all relating to movies . it also has seems to have channel up and channel down , which is which is more what you 'd expect from a , you know , like a sky or cable remote control project manager: hmm . user interface: where you 've got hundreds of channels instead of a merely terrestrial one . uh but i think we should be looking more along the lines of the one on the right , which has it also has play , stop and pause and everything , i do n't think we need them at all . i think we just need channel selection , volume up , volume down and i think an an enter function where you can access it 's not like teletext , but along the same lines , access things on the screen . uh not related to the internet one that you mentioned , because that 'd be far outside our budget and what we want this to do . project manager: mm . and exceed the requirements they 're expecting of us . user interface: so it really exceed the requirements , 'cause the requirements really are just want to be able to change channels and functions , which is more a text on the screen thing than uh than actual buttons project manager: okay . user interface: o i was thinking something some smooth , sleek , little remote control with big user-friendly buttons and uh a menu that you can access . project manager: alright . user interface: uh but then i do think we need to discuss the speech um recognition possibility . project manager: okay . any uh thing else you wan na add ? user interface: no . project manager: okay . user interface: but we could go back to the pictures of the uh , what 're they called ? the pictures of the remote controls and possibly discuss what we think about them , marketing: or if user interface: but maybe should hear what kate has to say first . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . let 's hear what kate has to say . user interface: okay then . marketing: maybe afterwards we could do a uh whiteboard with that your the one on the right as a as a basis . project manager: hmm . marketing: whiteboard session . project manager: i think the white that one on the right is , as well as less cluttered , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: definitely less cluttered and i mean but still it 's project manager: it 's there user interface: sorry project manager: but it 's user interface: i was just i 'll just uh resume something else i was gon na say . marketing: user interface: the the style of these is terrible . project manager: yeah . user interface: i i i really think we need to uh not only possibly even materials , like the type of plastic used , but everything including size and shape of buttons , positioning of buttons , the actual shape of the hand-held device , colours , just every e yeah , everything to do with this has to be revolutionised . marketing: the ergonomics , the way it fits in your project manager: hmm . marketing: yeah . user interface: but project manager: user interface: so that 's that for now . industrial designer: cheers . mm , i have n't actually got a display on my screen . project manager: okay . industrial designer: still , i 'll do without that . okay um , now i wan na bring us down to earth again i 'm afraid and talk about the actual practicalities of how the thing needs to work . um oh and this is the methodology i used in preparing for this meeting . um basically i 've been doing a little bit of web-based research , and if i had a design team , i would 've been discussing my ideas with 'em . but the the net result is that i 've come up with a first cut for the working design that i 'd like to discuss with you . so , let 's go back to what the basic function of a remote control is . it 's for sending a message , um typically um via infrared . and the the basic components we 've got to build in for our twelve euros fifty are um an energy source , the user interface and which will um in incorporate um an integrated circuit that actually composes the message um based on what the which buttons the user presses , we turn that into a message , um and then we need a sending mechanism to send it to the receiver . now i would have hoped i think that 's my only slide actually , yeah . i would have have hoped to um do you a pretty powerpoint slide of um my first cut design , but unfortunately the technology defeated me , so if you 'll bear with me i 'll do it on the whiteboard . so we want an energy source which is there . and we 've got to think about what that might be . project manager: hmm-mm . industrial designer: uh we obviously do n't want wires on this thing . uh typically it would be a battery , but i 'm open to suggestions . um and then we have the the user interface . oops . and the main components in there are the the th the chip that actually has the intelligence of the machine that translates button presses into a message , which it then transfers to some sending mechanism , which encodes it and sends the message to the receiver . so those are the basic things that we 've got to get in for our twelve euros fifty . thank you . project manager: hmm . okay . right . but those things as long as we can get those components , the block , that that rectangle for the user interface , is where the user comes in of what what does it look like ? what do the buttons look like ? uh what does it feel like ? that 's where the user interface is really coming into its own . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: the technical end is what 's actually gon na be in there , but also it has to be easy enough to change or repair if something goes wrong . for example the battery energy source or um what if the chip , for whatever reason , breaks down after a certain amount of time , do you just replace it ? um is there any um because it may be in the same area with several other user interfaces , like for d_v_d_s , movies , whatever . um does it have to have a a way of being segregated from the others , in a different frequency or something ? industrial designer: well i may be wrong here , but i 'd been thinking of this device as being a a cheap mass-produced device . we 're trying to sell four million of 'em , project manager: mm . industrial designer: um that 's that 's , you know , that 's almost one in every tenth household or whatever it is . um and i had n't thought of it as being a reparable thing , project manager: okay . industrial designer: you just if it goes wrong you chuck it out , and that 's why i 'm a bit concerned . i like the idea of speech recognition , that 's a great idea , but i 'm not convinced we can put it into this box for the price that we need gon na need to hit . project manager: okay . user interface: whoop . marketing: do we have um ki some idea of how much it would cost to create a device that has these basic elements ? user interface: is n't that your job ? marketing: because then project manager: oh . industrial designer: marketing: no , user interface: oh right . marketing: the chip composer marketing . oh no , the chip composer sender . project manager: mm . what they cost . industrial designer: um , i 'm i 'm i 'm hoping that my personal coach is gon na give me some advice on that , if you 're asking me , marketing: i i do n't believe i know , um . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . industrial designer: but marketing: be because then we would ha ha figure out how much we had to play with in terms of user interface and this look and feel idea . user interface: yeah . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: it does it does seem as if we 're just to do something really simple and mass-produced , the which is pretty much the same as these existing models , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: just maybe a little bit more inspired , marketing: inspired ? user interface: but basically just the same . marketing: mm . user interface: although what what uh suddenly came into my head is , you know how they always take two a_a_ batteries which which is really not very efficient at all . could it be possible to have uh , you know , like a rechargeable internal battery , like , well , like an m_p_ three player does ? with that you could jus or a mobile phone or whatever . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: you could you know , you just plug into a power source for a couple of hours , and then it 's recharged for ages and ages and ages , and you do n't have to worry with replacing a_a_ batteries , marketing: well user interface: which are marketing: that has another element , which is if every time you 're done using the remote you put it on a charger , then you then it has a place . project manager: mm . user interface: you 'd never need uh batteries would y uh yeah . marketing: yeah , but it also has a place , user interface: and it 's not stuck down the back of the sofa . marketing: so exactly . project manager: mm . user interface: but then again i d i do n't know if this is within our price range or not . marketing: that 's a really good idea . industrial designer: well i uh think that 's a very interesting idea , but um i 'm not a very good industrial designer and i do n't know much about what these things cost . i 'll do some research for the next meeting . project manager: okay . user interface: marketing: well it 's better than my idea about solar , probably . project manager: uh yeah . industrial designer: well solar may not be so good when you 're watching tv in the night , marketing: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: but project manager: mm . user interface: well it is just so annoying how marketing: depen project manager: it would have to sor store up the energy marketing: mm . yeah . industrial designer: yeah , i guess . project manager: and then use it . solar can do that . industrial designer: we may be talking quite heavy then . project manager: m yeah , that would be too heavy marketing: yeah . project manager: and it 'd cost too much . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: no , but just a rechargeable internal battery would probably i mean it might cost more to at first to develop and to install , marketing: mm-hmm user interface: but for long-term use it 'll be so much more convenient and economic than fiddling around trying to replace chunky a_a_ batteries and not having any in your kitchen drawer marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and industrial designer: so do you think we might make that a selling point if it was something that we found we could afford to develop ? user interface: you know f marketing: definitely , project manager: mm . marketing: 'cause i 'm thinking in terms of um uh the loss and breakage of um remotes , how much of that is is to do with it not really having a uh a home , a um a nest , a place to live , user interface: mm . project manager: mm . user interface: sort of have its little dock that you could put it in . industrial designer: marketing: exactly . project manager: yeah . marketing: so if you can dock it , um you know , you could s argue that this is project manager: and the dock could look very fancy and that could be your inspiration of having it looking decent . marketing: exactly . user interface: still i do n't know if it 's quite within our price range . project manager: hmm . marketing: mm . 'cause you are talking about another component , like another piece of hardware . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . okay . marketing: mm . project manager: are we agreed as to what our target group is though ? pretty much , so that we 'd be looking for the younger end . marketing: well i i brought up some exactly , but i think you raised some good questions about are there enough of these people out there , or are they making purchasing decisions ? industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: you know , industrial designer: i was wondering that , marketing: these are the industrial designer: because i ag i agree that there there 're people with uh how can i put it , more money than sense and who are liable to buy something new , project manager: i i s usually put more money than brains . marketing: yeah , exactly . industrial designer: but bu but what i was gon na say was , although they they may be buying um , you know , personal music devices and all that , marketing: oh oh oh i 'll make a note of that , kate . good , good comment . industrial designer: are they necessarily buying tv remote controls ? because they probably live in a household that has a tv if they 're at the lower end of the age range , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i do n't know . user interface: yeah . marketing: it might be good to know um uh who , you know , who 's actually buying televisions and are we in a uh uh s region where people have more than one television in a home ? industrial designer: mm . i think we 've got a big hill to climb here , have n't we ? i mean we 've got ta persuade people who 've got a remote control 'cause it came with the telly that they should buy our product instead . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm . yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: or do we s make sure that it goes to the man through the manufacturer ? we sell to the manufacturer as the remote that goes with it . industrial designer: right , good point . yeah , yeah okay , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , good point . user interface: that 's probably more what it is . marketing: yeah . project manager: what would be a more efficient way of doing it ? marketing: yeah , and and some of our d_v_d_ players incidentally have them , because we have the relationship with our own department , but moreover we need to to go for the the manufacturers . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . right . user interface: we 're not gon na get any resolutions by the end of the day , project manager: probably not . user interface: are we ? marketing: mm . project manager: um the other thing that we 're supposed to do is make decision on our functions . our functions , we 've so far decided , i think , that power , channel , volume make it attractive . um it has to have an enter key and of course the number keys . it has to have big user-friendly buttons and sh n definitely we wan na be inspired that the current styles are just plain awful . user interface: yeah . marketing: do we need um let me project manager: is that agreeable to everyone ? marketing: br actually , um industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: the enter key i have a chart here that i did n't include . um project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: do you want the gizmo ? marketing: yeah , which might project manager: throw some light on that . marketing: th yeah , th those are felt like had a lot of charts . project manager: um actually we 're , you know , we are almost a half hour out of the forty minutes , so we have to get close to finishing . marketing: okay , i i my only comment is i think maybe um we could somehow include an enter key in like a power key if power power was enter and pow that was my only just really in terms of streamlining . project manager: ah . mm-hmm . okay . enter , power as a s oh um a sum simultaneous key . marketing: um exactly . again , you know , project manager: is that okay with you ? marketing: thinking of menus or user interface: sorry , project manager: would that industrial designer: h how does that work ? user interface: i was miles away . industrial designer: how so so how does that work , user interface: i was re i was reading the chart to be honest . marketing: um well project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: how do you avoid switching the thing off when you actually wan na press enter ? marketing: if you 're pressing enter , the the thing would already be on , and so maybe um when you press power , initially it turns it on , press power again and use that as an enter um project manager: then you 'd have to have an off te off key . marketing: so you press power after you 've um well i was thinking maybe you to turn it off you 'd have to press power twice in succession , industrial designer: okay , yep , mm-hmm . project manager: mm . marketing: and maybe power follows something like a channel up channel down power , and then that would make that choice . industrial designer: it 's not getting a bit complicated ? could granny do this , marketing: well industrial designer: or are we just not aiming at granny ? marketing: or y yeah . or something that has a a turning dial , where at the far end is on or off . user interface: who 's got an ipod then ? industrial designer: marketing: yeah , project manager: mm . okay . marketing: i do n't um i wish . anyway , uh that was the only comment about um some of the the decisions people have made , what 's most important . project manager: mm . marketing: it 's definitely channel , volume , power . user interface: yeah , things like screen settings and audio settings , i would generally do them on the actual television itself , marketing: exactly . user interface: like here you have a you know , a little flap th with a little control panel on the actual box itself . marketing: exactly . user interface: i i would n't know how to do it using a remote control , marketing: yeah . user interface: so um i would say that they are definitely less relevant . project manager: okay . so marketing: okay , well . thanks for looking at that . project manager: i guess easy to use is the other thing that we want 'em to be able to do . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: as you said , you know , do n't make it too hard for the granny . marketing: we do n't wan na outsmart project manager: i just joined that set last week . marketing: hmm . project manager: um first grandchild arrived . marketing: congratulations . industrial designer: mm . user interface: industrial designer: uh . project manager: um so are we agreed then of those things ? and let 's go back to agenda marketing: d project manager: and hook me up . mm . this oughta be fun . it probably wo n't go the first time , it 'll probably be like a g mess . come on . uh it lost it off here . uh marketing: oh you 're fine . it 's fine . project manager: no , it was up there , but i could n't see it down here . mm . this time it should be both . there we go . industrial designer: how do you do that ? how do you make it do both ? project manager: um you have to keep doing the financi the the f_n_ and f_ eight to five minutes to finish , industrial designer: ah okay , it toggles through , project manager: thank you a lot for telling me . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um right , marketing: i think you have to cycle through . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: we 're ready to close . um will be completed q questionnaire , um then we 'll have some time for individual work to continue our research um and i 'll put some minutes of this meeting together . um your individual assignments are for um kate to do the components , for you , steph , to do the user interface and for you the trend-watching . um and each of us will get help from our coach . are we agreed to get ourselves together and then have lunch ? user interface: yes . project manager: okay . industrial designer: sounds good . project manager: then that 's the end of this meeting . and i hope that 's good enough for her to tell her that 's the end . okay ? industrial designer: okay . user interface: we did n't come to any sort of decision on the functions though . project manager: well i think i went over the functions and wrote them down and marked them . user interface: alright , well that 's fine then . project manager: um that 's what i went over and nobody was objecting to them . marketing: okay . um and you 'd mentioned i i was just gon na say , could you reiterate the new project requirements , project manager: okay . marketing: because it they were it has to be for a tv , just to keep myself project manager: um the teletext is outdated , industrial designer: so we 're still in meeting , are n't we ? project manager: the internet is important , marketing: yeah , i think i 've project manager: it 's only to be for a tv and it must include the corporate image , colour and slogan um marketing: okay . project manager: which i think is more in the user uh range , with steph . user interface: mm . sorry , what what actually are these is that the yellow and black ? project manager: it does n't tell me . marketing: mm . user interface: from their i 'll just use it from their website . project manager: mm-hmm . okay ? user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . marketing: right . thank you .

the meeting mainly focused on the functional design of the remote control . after project manager reviewed the last meeting briefly , marketing made a presentation about re-envisioning the menu functionality , current technology , and interaction with other tools of the remote control by discarding unnecessary buttons and adding the speech recognition to the remote control according to market research . user interface argued that they should discard the existing standard , and only keep the basic and user-friendly functions like channel selection , volume and enter key . the group then discussed the source of power whether to have a charger or solar power . although solar energy was fancy and environmentally friendly , the cost was much higher than using a charger . the group faced some difficulty when deciding the target group whether for the young end or for the lower end of the age range who have more money than sense . in the next part , the group reached a consensus in terms of the keys of the remote control , which is power , channel , volume , enter , number .

summarize the discussion about the menu function and interaction with other tools of the remote control . </s> project manager: uh it fell off . one , two , three , four , yeah , we 're ready . okay . welcome to this second meeting . um it 's now quarter after twelve and we 're given forty minutes um for this meeting . this is a meeting on functional design . um and i wan na welcome you all and thank you all for doing some research in between . um i did took the minutes from the first meeting and i 'll show them to you in a moment . um i know each of you have a presentation and um in thinking about the forty minutes , i thought it would take only like three minutes for the previous minutes , um each of you having about seven minutes or maybe a little more , maybe a little less for your pre presentations and a little discussion , because there 's i happen to have been told there were some new project requirements and we have to make some uh decision on what functions it will have . okay ? is this ap everybody agree with this ? industrial designer: oops . user interface: yes . marketing: yes . project manager: okay . um and after the meeting there 'll be things to be done and as you can see it says we get to get lunch , um and then some more individual work and then putting minutes away and individual actions . um but uh now for the minutes of the first meeting . and go to that one . um as you can see it was this earlier today . um kate , steph , sarah and myself in our four capacities were present . i opened the meeting , the product was developed uh and reviewed , and we talked about the financial end of it . um and it had some implications , um the four million sales target and new ideas of not too many buttons , bright colours and some of the influence of the japanese . and we closed early so you could then proceed with your research and getting your reports together for tod this meeting anybody have any questions on those minutes ? are they complete , did they discuss everything that we covered last time ? 'kay . industrial designer: uh i think so , project manager: did i miss something ? industrial designer: we we we talked about the the individual roles that we each had as well . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . i 'm afraid i incorporated that when i said who was present , but yes , we did , industrial designer: okay . project manager: and we did a little bit of uh team building of uh of making the pictures , marketing: okay , i accept the minutes . project manager: but i did n't think those were appropriate to the minutes necessarily . so um as a group i think we 've are they 're accepting the minutes . and uh okay . marketing: is that what we 're supposed to say ? project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , i do . project manager: good . um , then we 'll move to the three presentations . okay ? marketing: okay . project manager: okay . mm we need to move this . who wants to go f first ? that 's as far as it goes . user interface: uh not really meant to touch those microphones . oh it does n't have any on , does it ? that 's fine . marketing: excellent , thank you . industrial designer: oy , big loop under the table . project manager: she said we did n't need to screw it in . marketing: okay . okay , that looks good . project manager: it 's doing its thing . there we are . marketing: alright . thank you very much . um . one of the the biggest issues i found about um from last meeting was the fact that we need to sell four million of these um remote controls and i think that this is an opportunity to really take real reaction in the direction of of similar of handheld tools that have been used and are used by many of us and to kind of bring the remote control into the si same realm as an accessible um useful electronic device , as opposed to something that is lost in the couch and what have you . so um my main goal here is to re-envision the remote control in in this context and to think about menu functionality and current technology and the fact that it could be interactive with other tools . um some of the research uh in the market has shown that people really are not happy with remote controls as they are now , and um that means we do need to make some decisions about what what keys or or buttons on the on the remote control to perhaps keep and and what ones to discard . and if we devote some energy into this , i think the um recent productions of real reaction , the i go everywhere power and the high definition d_v_d_ players although it makes immediate sense to have our remote control interact with these , i think we can also use this as a platform to make it interact with other tools . and um in fact i think the high definition d_v_d_ players and all of this will come along in the uh will only benefit from the positive feedback from our well designed tool . so again , most uh users really dislike the current look and feel of remote controls . um fifty percent i think of all these uh numbers the most important is fifty percent of user say they only use ten percent of the buttons . and eighty percent of users , and if we think about this there are a lot of uh television , d_v_d_ , stereo remote control users out there , eighty percent would spend more money on a remote control that looks fancy . industrial designer: could can i ask where these figures come from , is this market research we 've marketing: um it was market research and there were a hundred people in the room , so eighty out of a hundred said they would spend more money . project manager: now in between , as the project manager , they sent me an email from the powers that be industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: um that teletext is outdated um marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and the internet is coming in as important , but that they want this remote control to only be for tv um with incorporating the corporate image , colour and slogan . marketing: mm-hmm . well i think we can i i think we can really focus on this remote and and again bring the real reaction um brand in in and and get some positive marketing for our other tools , even if we directly do n't um advertise for the i go everywhere line . project manager: mm . marketing: so an interesting um element was the would you pay more for speech recognition question . so these market research uh uh questionnaires looked into your your uh concern about technology project manager: hmm . industrial designer: marketing: and s specifically wanted to find out information about speech recognition . project manager: okay . marketing: now the early adopters , those of us who grew up with technology and uh luck lucky for us have the uh cash to to pay for it , the young age group without the mortgages and responsibilities , ninety one percent of them would pay more for speech recognition in a remote control . very interesting , i i leave this up to the group to decide if we wan na use this uh if and you know , the the designers , project manager: mm . marketing: but ninety one percent , fifteen to twenty five project manager: is that a large enough target market to target it ? marketing: well , i i i think especially in terms of growth , i think this would be a very smart group to target . i mean s three quarters of the next age group , twenty five to thirty five are interested , and uh with the technologies improving , if we can get these uh project manager: in real numbers , does the ninety one percent and the seventy six percent translate to ex in excess of the four million ? marketing: yeah . to um yes . project manager: or eight million . marketing: yes . but would you pay more and does it work and is it approachable and and did i know that it was it was an project manager: hmm . marketing: that 's a that 's a very good question . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um marketing: i do n't know if speech recognition should be um should be included , project manager: mm . marketing: but i think it 's an interesting i think that maybe shows more about uh being open to technology . project manager: mm . user interface: uh it definitely needs uh a lot more research marketing: shall i go back ? user interface: on like how much more it would be and any , you know , existing examples , marketing: yeah , yeah . user interface: and what reactions to them have been , and that sort of thing . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: how d i 'm wondering how how ou how our target price compares with the the typical price of these things . i expect an industrial designer should know that , but if we 're aiming to to build this thing for twelve euros fifty , um is that a lot or a little ? marketing: exactly . i mean i i i uh did not receive any information on that , but i think the competition , sussing out what other people are doing and what 's in the pipeline is very very important , because um there is a question about do you want an lcd screen and and that was n't responded to , but uh some of the larger remotes do have screens where you can navigate , you know , so it turns into something uh perhaps you all have seen uh the osbournes where ozzy osbourne is is attempting to manage his super entertainment system with something that looks like a uh a small tray . industrial designer: sh surely he 's in the wrong age group . marketing: you know , project manager: marketing: it 's i a and i think , you know industrial designer: he must be w one of a s small population . marketing: no , no , project manager: mm . marketing: you kate , you 're exactly right there . but i think the key is to get the early adopters , people who are familiar with technology and and uh they 'll be project manager: but we 're not looking at whether they 're early adopters on that screen , marketing: uh , mm . project manager: that 's looking at age groups . marketing: exactly . i yes , and i 'm making and i 'm making the the uh uh leap that people who are familiar younger people are l are more familiar with technology than than older people . or comfortable , project manager: leap . hmm . mm . marketing: you know , um so project manager: okay , you had the other power channel . marketing: i think the most important thing is an attractive streamlined remote control and to be extraordinarily reductionist , power , channel , volume and everything else is is uh up to the designers . and this is this is also supported by the market research . project manager: okay . marketing: thank you . that 's my contribution . project manager: alright . and we 'll turn to the next presentation . i think she said we do n't need to screw it in , just stick it in . and then press , what ? f f_n_ and f_ eight . next to the control button on the bottom , and then f_ eight at the top . user interface: yeah , press them . project manager: and then w be patient . user interface: yeah , here we go . project manager: tada . industrial designer: and if you want it to go into slide show mode , it 's that little button there . user interface: can i not just uh do each one in order ? industrial designer: i you can if you like , it it that that just sets it up to do a p a p project manager: there we are . yay . user interface: that ? industrial designer: no that one , that one there . user interface: that ? industrial designer: left , left a bit , left a bit , that one , yep . user interface: that ? right , technical functions design . uh well i think first off , basically i do agree with what sarah has defined as as uh your personal preferences , yeah . i think we need uh a more streamlined volume with no extraneous functions . so my method was to look at the existing remotes and what functions they have . and what we all need to discuss is whether we want these functions uh pretty much the same as what existing remotes have . if we can build on this with the speech recognition , that 's not something i 'd thought about at all , but it 's also something we can discuss . project manager: okay . user interface: um and and i presume we can miss out the functions really to to a video or d_v_d_ remote control , if this is only gon na be a , you know , satellite , cable , tv remote control . project manager: tv only . user interface: so these are two models of existing remote controls . uh the one on the left seems to be a fairly uh standard universal remote control . project manager: ugh . user interface: it has fast-forward , stop , play , all relating to movies . it also has seems to have channel up and channel down , which is which is more what you 'd expect from a , you know , like a sky or cable remote control project manager: hmm . user interface: where you 've got hundreds of channels instead of a merely terrestrial one . uh but i think we should be looking more along the lines of the one on the right , which has it also has play , stop and pause and everything , i do n't think we need them at all . i think we just need channel selection , volume up , volume down and i think an an enter function where you can access it 's not like teletext , but along the same lines , access things on the screen . uh not related to the internet one that you mentioned , because that 'd be far outside our budget and what we want this to do . project manager: mm . and exceed the requirements they 're expecting of us . user interface: so it really exceed the requirements , 'cause the requirements really are just want to be able to change channels and functions , which is more a text on the screen thing than uh than actual buttons project manager: okay . user interface: o i was thinking something some smooth , sleek , little remote control with big user-friendly buttons and uh a menu that you can access . project manager: alright . user interface: uh but then i do think we need to discuss the speech um recognition possibility . project manager: okay . any uh thing else you wan na add ? user interface: no . project manager: okay . user interface: but we could go back to the pictures of the uh , what 're they called ? the pictures of the remote controls and possibly discuss what we think about them , marketing: or if user interface: but maybe should hear what kate has to say first . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . let 's hear what kate has to say . user interface: okay then . marketing: maybe afterwards we could do a uh whiteboard with that your the one on the right as a as a basis . project manager: hmm . marketing: whiteboard session . project manager: i think the white that one on the right is , as well as less cluttered , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: definitely less cluttered and i mean but still it 's project manager: it 's there user interface: sorry project manager: but it 's user interface: i was just i 'll just uh resume something else i was gon na say . marketing: user interface: the the style of these is terrible . project manager: yeah . user interface: i i i really think we need to uh not only possibly even materials , like the type of plastic used , but everything including size and shape of buttons , positioning of buttons , the actual shape of the hand-held device , colours , just every e yeah , everything to do with this has to be revolutionised . marketing: the ergonomics , the way it fits in your project manager: hmm . marketing: yeah . user interface: but project manager: user interface: so that 's that for now . industrial designer: cheers . mm , i have n't actually got a display on my screen . project manager: okay . industrial designer: still , i 'll do without that . okay um , now i wan na bring us down to earth again i 'm afraid and talk about the actual practicalities of how the thing needs to work . um oh and this is the methodology i used in preparing for this meeting . um basically i 've been doing a little bit of web-based research , and if i had a design team , i would 've been discussing my ideas with 'em . but the the net result is that i 've come up with a first cut for the working design that i 'd like to discuss with you . so , let 's go back to what the basic function of a remote control is . it 's for sending a message , um typically um via infrared . and the the basic components we 've got to build in for our twelve euros fifty are um an energy source , the user interface and which will um in incorporate um an integrated circuit that actually composes the message um based on what the which buttons the user presses , we turn that into a message , um and then we need a sending mechanism to send it to the receiver . now i would have hoped i think that 's my only slide actually , yeah . i would have have hoped to um do you a pretty powerpoint slide of um my first cut design , but unfortunately the technology defeated me , so if you 'll bear with me i 'll do it on the whiteboard . so we want an energy source which is there . and we 've got to think about what that might be . project manager: hmm-mm . industrial designer: uh we obviously do n't want wires on this thing . uh typically it would be a battery , but i 'm open to suggestions . um and then we have the the user interface . oops . and the main components in there are the the th the chip that actually has the intelligence of the machine that translates button presses into a message , which it then transfers to some sending mechanism , which encodes it and sends the message to the receiver . so those are the basic things that we 've got to get in for our twelve euros fifty . thank you . project manager: hmm . okay . right . but those things as long as we can get those components , the block , that that rectangle for the user interface , is where the user comes in of what what does it look like ? what do the buttons look like ? uh what does it feel like ? that 's where the user interface is really coming into its own . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: the technical end is what 's actually gon na be in there , but also it has to be easy enough to change or repair if something goes wrong . for example the battery energy source or um what if the chip , for whatever reason , breaks down after a certain amount of time , do you just replace it ? um is there any um because it may be in the same area with several other user interfaces , like for d_v_d_s , movies , whatever . um does it have to have a a way of being segregated from the others , in a different frequency or something ? industrial designer: well i may be wrong here , but i 'd been thinking of this device as being a a cheap mass-produced device . we 're trying to sell four million of 'em , project manager: mm . industrial designer: um that 's that 's , you know , that 's almost one in every tenth household or whatever it is . um and i had n't thought of it as being a reparable thing , project manager: okay . industrial designer: you just if it goes wrong you chuck it out , and that 's why i 'm a bit concerned . i like the idea of speech recognition , that 's a great idea , but i 'm not convinced we can put it into this box for the price that we need gon na need to hit . project manager: okay . user interface: whoop . marketing: do we have um ki some idea of how much it would cost to create a device that has these basic elements ? user interface: is n't that your job ? marketing: because then project manager: oh . industrial designer: marketing: no , user interface: oh right . marketing: the chip composer marketing . oh no , the chip composer sender . project manager: mm . what they cost . industrial designer: um , i 'm i 'm i 'm hoping that my personal coach is gon na give me some advice on that , if you 're asking me , marketing: i i do n't believe i know , um . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . industrial designer: but marketing: be because then we would ha ha figure out how much we had to play with in terms of user interface and this look and feel idea . user interface: yeah . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: it does it does seem as if we 're just to do something really simple and mass-produced , the which is pretty much the same as these existing models , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: just maybe a little bit more inspired , marketing: inspired ? user interface: but basically just the same . marketing: mm . user interface: although what what uh suddenly came into my head is , you know how they always take two a_a_ batteries which which is really not very efficient at all . could it be possible to have uh , you know , like a rechargeable internal battery , like , well , like an m_p_ three player does ? with that you could jus or a mobile phone or whatever . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: you could you know , you just plug into a power source for a couple of hours , and then it 's recharged for ages and ages and ages , and you do n't have to worry with replacing a_a_ batteries , marketing: well user interface: which are marketing: that has another element , which is if every time you 're done using the remote you put it on a charger , then you then it has a place . project manager: mm . user interface: you 'd never need uh batteries would y uh yeah . marketing: yeah , but it also has a place , user interface: and it 's not stuck down the back of the sofa . marketing: so exactly . project manager: mm . user interface: but then again i d i do n't know if this is within our price range or not . marketing: that 's a really good idea . industrial designer: well i uh think that 's a very interesting idea , but um i 'm not a very good industrial designer and i do n't know much about what these things cost . i 'll do some research for the next meeting . project manager: okay . user interface: marketing: well it 's better than my idea about solar , probably . project manager: uh yeah . industrial designer: well solar may not be so good when you 're watching tv in the night , marketing: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: but project manager: mm . user interface: well it is just so annoying how marketing: depen project manager: it would have to sor store up the energy marketing: mm . yeah . industrial designer: yeah , i guess . project manager: and then use it . solar can do that . industrial designer: we may be talking quite heavy then . project manager: m yeah , that would be too heavy marketing: yeah . project manager: and it 'd cost too much . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: no , but just a rechargeable internal battery would probably i mean it might cost more to at first to develop and to install , marketing: mm-hmm user interface: but for long-term use it 'll be so much more convenient and economic than fiddling around trying to replace chunky a_a_ batteries and not having any in your kitchen drawer marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and industrial designer: so do you think we might make that a selling point if it was something that we found we could afford to develop ? user interface: you know f marketing: definitely , project manager: mm . marketing: 'cause i 'm thinking in terms of um uh the loss and breakage of um remotes , how much of that is is to do with it not really having a uh a home , a um a nest , a place to live , user interface: mm . project manager: mm . user interface: sort of have its little dock that you could put it in . industrial designer: marketing: exactly . project manager: yeah . marketing: so if you can dock it , um you know , you could s argue that this is project manager: and the dock could look very fancy and that could be your inspiration of having it looking decent . marketing: exactly . user interface: still i do n't know if it 's quite within our price range . project manager: hmm . marketing: mm . 'cause you are talking about another component , like another piece of hardware . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . okay . marketing: mm . project manager: are we agreed as to what our target group is though ? pretty much , so that we 'd be looking for the younger end . marketing: well i i brought up some exactly , but i think you raised some good questions about are there enough of these people out there , or are they making purchasing decisions ? industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: you know , industrial designer: i was wondering that , marketing: these are the industrial designer: because i ag i agree that there there 're people with uh how can i put it , more money than sense and who are liable to buy something new , project manager: i i s usually put more money than brains . marketing: yeah , exactly . industrial designer: but bu but what i was gon na say was , although they they may be buying um , you know , personal music devices and all that , marketing: oh oh oh i 'll make a note of that , kate . good , good comment . industrial designer: are they necessarily buying tv remote controls ? because they probably live in a household that has a tv if they 're at the lower end of the age range , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i do n't know . user interface: yeah . marketing: it might be good to know um uh who , you know , who 's actually buying televisions and are we in a uh uh s region where people have more than one television in a home ? industrial designer: mm . i think we 've got a big hill to climb here , have n't we ? i mean we 've got ta persuade people who 've got a remote control 'cause it came with the telly that they should buy our product instead . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm . yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: or do we s make sure that it goes to the man through the manufacturer ? we sell to the manufacturer as the remote that goes with it . industrial designer: right , good point . yeah , yeah okay , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , good point . user interface: that 's probably more what it is . marketing: yeah . project manager: what would be a more efficient way of doing it ? marketing: yeah , and and some of our d_v_d_ players incidentally have them , because we have the relationship with our own department , but moreover we need to to go for the the manufacturers . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . right . user interface: we 're not gon na get any resolutions by the end of the day , project manager: probably not . user interface: are we ? marketing: mm . project manager: um the other thing that we 're supposed to do is make decision on our functions . our functions , we 've so far decided , i think , that power , channel , volume make it attractive . um it has to have an enter key and of course the number keys . it has to have big user-friendly buttons and sh n definitely we wan na be inspired that the current styles are just plain awful . user interface: yeah . marketing: do we need um let me project manager: is that agreeable to everyone ? marketing: br actually , um industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: the enter key i have a chart here that i did n't include . um project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: do you want the gizmo ? marketing: yeah , which might project manager: throw some light on that . marketing: th yeah , th those are felt like had a lot of charts . project manager: um actually we 're , you know , we are almost a half hour out of the forty minutes , so we have to get close to finishing . marketing: okay , i i my only comment is i think maybe um we could somehow include an enter key in like a power key if power power was enter and pow that was my only just really in terms of streamlining . project manager: ah . mm-hmm . okay . enter , power as a s oh um a sum simultaneous key . marketing: um exactly . again , you know , project manager: is that okay with you ? marketing: thinking of menus or user interface: sorry , project manager: would that industrial designer: h how does that work ? user interface: i was miles away . industrial designer: how so so how does that work , user interface: i was re i was reading the chart to be honest . marketing: um well project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: how do you avoid switching the thing off when you actually wan na press enter ? marketing: if you 're pressing enter , the the thing would already be on , and so maybe um when you press power , initially it turns it on , press power again and use that as an enter um project manager: then you 'd have to have an off te off key . marketing: so you press power after you 've um well i was thinking maybe you to turn it off you 'd have to press power twice in succession , industrial designer: okay , yep , mm-hmm . project manager: mm . marketing: and maybe power follows something like a channel up channel down power , and then that would make that choice . industrial designer: it 's not getting a bit complicated ? could granny do this , marketing: well industrial designer: or are we just not aiming at granny ? marketing: or y yeah . or something that has a a turning dial , where at the far end is on or off . user interface: who 's got an ipod then ? industrial designer: marketing: yeah , project manager: mm . okay . marketing: i do n't um i wish . anyway , uh that was the only comment about um some of the the decisions people have made , what 's most important . project manager: mm . marketing: it 's definitely channel , volume , power . user interface: yeah , things like screen settings and audio settings , i would generally do them on the actual television itself , marketing: exactly . user interface: like here you have a you know , a little flap th with a little control panel on the actual box itself . marketing: exactly . user interface: i i would n't know how to do it using a remote control , marketing: yeah . user interface: so um i would say that they are definitely less relevant . project manager: okay . so marketing: okay , well . thanks for looking at that . project manager: i guess easy to use is the other thing that we want 'em to be able to do . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: as you said , you know , do n't make it too hard for the granny . marketing: we do n't wan na outsmart project manager: i just joined that set last week . marketing: hmm . project manager: um first grandchild arrived . marketing: congratulations . industrial designer: mm . user interface: industrial designer: uh . project manager: um so are we agreed then of those things ? and let 's go back to agenda marketing: d project manager: and hook me up . mm . this oughta be fun . it probably wo n't go the first time , it 'll probably be like a g mess . come on . uh it lost it off here . uh marketing: oh you 're fine . it 's fine . project manager: no , it was up there , but i could n't see it down here . mm . this time it should be both . there we go . industrial designer: how do you do that ? how do you make it do both ? project manager: um you have to keep doing the financi the the f_n_ and f_ eight to five minutes to finish , industrial designer: ah okay , it toggles through , project manager: thank you a lot for telling me . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um right , marketing: i think you have to cycle through . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: we 're ready to close . um will be completed q questionnaire , um then we 'll have some time for individual work to continue our research um and i 'll put some minutes of this meeting together . um your individual assignments are for um kate to do the components , for you , steph , to do the user interface and for you the trend-watching . um and each of us will get help from our coach . are we agreed to get ourselves together and then have lunch ? user interface: yes . project manager: okay . industrial designer: sounds good . project manager: then that 's the end of this meeting . and i hope that 's good enough for her to tell her that 's the end . okay ? industrial designer: okay . user interface: we did n't come to any sort of decision on the functions though . project manager: well i think i went over the functions and wrote them down and marked them . user interface: alright , well that 's fine then . project manager: um that 's what i went over and nobody was objecting to them . marketing: okay . um and you 'd mentioned i i was just gon na say , could you reiterate the new project requirements , project manager: okay . marketing: because it they were it has to be for a tv , just to keep myself project manager: um the teletext is outdated , industrial designer: so we 're still in meeting , are n't we ? project manager: the internet is important , marketing: yeah , i think i 've project manager: it 's only to be for a tv and it must include the corporate image , colour and slogan um marketing: okay . project manager: which i think is more in the user uh range , with steph . user interface: mm . sorry , what what actually are these is that the yellow and black ? project manager: it does n't tell me . marketing: mm . user interface: from their i 'll just use it from their website . project manager: mm-hmm . okay ? user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . marketing: right . thank you .

marketing tried to re-envision the remote control about the menu functionality , the current technology and the interaction with other tools based on the market research . marketing suggested discarding unnecessary buttons and made a fancier remote control . they could also use the technology of speech recognition to help build the interaction .

what did marketing think about the menu functionality when discussing the menu function and interaction with other tools of the remote control ? </s> project manager: uh it fell off . one , two , three , four , yeah , we 're ready . okay . welcome to this second meeting . um it 's now quarter after twelve and we 're given forty minutes um for this meeting . this is a meeting on functional design . um and i wan na welcome you all and thank you all for doing some research in between . um i did took the minutes from the first meeting and i 'll show them to you in a moment . um i know each of you have a presentation and um in thinking about the forty minutes , i thought it would take only like three minutes for the previous minutes , um each of you having about seven minutes or maybe a little more , maybe a little less for your pre presentations and a little discussion , because there 's i happen to have been told there were some new project requirements and we have to make some uh decision on what functions it will have . okay ? is this ap everybody agree with this ? industrial designer: oops . user interface: yes . marketing: yes . project manager: okay . um and after the meeting there 'll be things to be done and as you can see it says we get to get lunch , um and then some more individual work and then putting minutes away and individual actions . um but uh now for the minutes of the first meeting . and go to that one . um as you can see it was this earlier today . um kate , steph , sarah and myself in our four capacities were present . i opened the meeting , the product was developed uh and reviewed , and we talked about the financial end of it . um and it had some implications , um the four million sales target and new ideas of not too many buttons , bright colours and some of the influence of the japanese . and we closed early so you could then proceed with your research and getting your reports together for tod this meeting anybody have any questions on those minutes ? are they complete , did they discuss everything that we covered last time ? 'kay . industrial designer: uh i think so , project manager: did i miss something ? industrial designer: we we we talked about the the individual roles that we each had as well . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . i 'm afraid i incorporated that when i said who was present , but yes , we did , industrial designer: okay . project manager: and we did a little bit of uh team building of uh of making the pictures , marketing: okay , i accept the minutes . project manager: but i did n't think those were appropriate to the minutes necessarily . so um as a group i think we 've are they 're accepting the minutes . and uh okay . marketing: is that what we 're supposed to say ? project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , i do . project manager: good . um , then we 'll move to the three presentations . okay ? marketing: okay . project manager: okay . mm we need to move this . who wants to go f first ? that 's as far as it goes . user interface: uh not really meant to touch those microphones . oh it does n't have any on , does it ? that 's fine . marketing: excellent , thank you . industrial designer: oy , big loop under the table . project manager: she said we did n't need to screw it in . marketing: okay . okay , that looks good . project manager: it 's doing its thing . there we are . marketing: alright . thank you very much . um . one of the the biggest issues i found about um from last meeting was the fact that we need to sell four million of these um remote controls and i think that this is an opportunity to really take real reaction in the direction of of similar of handheld tools that have been used and are used by many of us and to kind of bring the remote control into the si same realm as an accessible um useful electronic device , as opposed to something that is lost in the couch and what have you . so um my main goal here is to re-envision the remote control in in this context and to think about menu functionality and current technology and the fact that it could be interactive with other tools . um some of the research uh in the market has shown that people really are not happy with remote controls as they are now , and um that means we do need to make some decisions about what what keys or or buttons on the on the remote control to perhaps keep and and what ones to discard . and if we devote some energy into this , i think the um recent productions of real reaction , the i go everywhere power and the high definition d_v_d_ players although it makes immediate sense to have our remote control interact with these , i think we can also use this as a platform to make it interact with other tools . and um in fact i think the high definition d_v_d_ players and all of this will come along in the uh will only benefit from the positive feedback from our well designed tool . so again , most uh users really dislike the current look and feel of remote controls . um fifty percent i think of all these uh numbers the most important is fifty percent of user say they only use ten percent of the buttons . and eighty percent of users , and if we think about this there are a lot of uh television , d_v_d_ , stereo remote control users out there , eighty percent would spend more money on a remote control that looks fancy . industrial designer: could can i ask where these figures come from , is this market research we 've marketing: um it was market research and there were a hundred people in the room , so eighty out of a hundred said they would spend more money . project manager: now in between , as the project manager , they sent me an email from the powers that be industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: um that teletext is outdated um marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and the internet is coming in as important , but that they want this remote control to only be for tv um with incorporating the corporate image , colour and slogan . marketing: mm-hmm . well i think we can i i think we can really focus on this remote and and again bring the real reaction um brand in in and and get some positive marketing for our other tools , even if we directly do n't um advertise for the i go everywhere line . project manager: mm . marketing: so an interesting um element was the would you pay more for speech recognition question . so these market research uh uh questionnaires looked into your your uh concern about technology project manager: hmm . industrial designer: marketing: and s specifically wanted to find out information about speech recognition . project manager: okay . marketing: now the early adopters , those of us who grew up with technology and uh luck lucky for us have the uh cash to to pay for it , the young age group without the mortgages and responsibilities , ninety one percent of them would pay more for speech recognition in a remote control . very interesting , i i leave this up to the group to decide if we wan na use this uh if and you know , the the designers , project manager: mm . marketing: but ninety one percent , fifteen to twenty five project manager: is that a large enough target market to target it ? marketing: well , i i i think especially in terms of growth , i think this would be a very smart group to target . i mean s three quarters of the next age group , twenty five to thirty five are interested , and uh with the technologies improving , if we can get these uh project manager: in real numbers , does the ninety one percent and the seventy six percent translate to ex in excess of the four million ? marketing: yeah . to um yes . project manager: or eight million . marketing: yes . but would you pay more and does it work and is it approachable and and did i know that it was it was an project manager: hmm . marketing: that 's a that 's a very good question . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um marketing: i do n't know if speech recognition should be um should be included , project manager: mm . marketing: but i think it 's an interesting i think that maybe shows more about uh being open to technology . project manager: mm . user interface: uh it definitely needs uh a lot more research marketing: shall i go back ? user interface: on like how much more it would be and any , you know , existing examples , marketing: yeah , yeah . user interface: and what reactions to them have been , and that sort of thing . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: how d i 'm wondering how how ou how our target price compares with the the typical price of these things . i expect an industrial designer should know that , but if we 're aiming to to build this thing for twelve euros fifty , um is that a lot or a little ? marketing: exactly . i mean i i i uh did not receive any information on that , but i think the competition , sussing out what other people are doing and what 's in the pipeline is very very important , because um there is a question about do you want an lcd screen and and that was n't responded to , but uh some of the larger remotes do have screens where you can navigate , you know , so it turns into something uh perhaps you all have seen uh the osbournes where ozzy osbourne is is attempting to manage his super entertainment system with something that looks like a uh a small tray . industrial designer: sh surely he 's in the wrong age group . marketing: you know , project manager: marketing: it 's i a and i think , you know industrial designer: he must be w one of a s small population . marketing: no , no , project manager: mm . marketing: you kate , you 're exactly right there . but i think the key is to get the early adopters , people who are familiar with technology and and uh they 'll be project manager: but we 're not looking at whether they 're early adopters on that screen , marketing: uh , mm . project manager: that 's looking at age groups . marketing: exactly . i yes , and i 'm making and i 'm making the the uh uh leap that people who are familiar younger people are l are more familiar with technology than than older people . or comfortable , project manager: leap . hmm . mm . marketing: you know , um so project manager: okay , you had the other power channel . marketing: i think the most important thing is an attractive streamlined remote control and to be extraordinarily reductionist , power , channel , volume and everything else is is uh up to the designers . and this is this is also supported by the market research . project manager: okay . marketing: thank you . that 's my contribution . project manager: alright . and we 'll turn to the next presentation . i think she said we do n't need to screw it in , just stick it in . and then press , what ? f f_n_ and f_ eight . next to the control button on the bottom , and then f_ eight at the top . user interface: yeah , press them . project manager: and then w be patient . user interface: yeah , here we go . project manager: tada . industrial designer: and if you want it to go into slide show mode , it 's that little button there . user interface: can i not just uh do each one in order ? industrial designer: i you can if you like , it it that that just sets it up to do a p a p project manager: there we are . yay . user interface: that ? industrial designer: no that one , that one there . user interface: that ? industrial designer: left , left a bit , left a bit , that one , yep . user interface: that ? right , technical functions design . uh well i think first off , basically i do agree with what sarah has defined as as uh your personal preferences , yeah . i think we need uh a more streamlined volume with no extraneous functions . so my method was to look at the existing remotes and what functions they have . and what we all need to discuss is whether we want these functions uh pretty much the same as what existing remotes have . if we can build on this with the speech recognition , that 's not something i 'd thought about at all , but it 's also something we can discuss . project manager: okay . user interface: um and and i presume we can miss out the functions really to to a video or d_v_d_ remote control , if this is only gon na be a , you know , satellite , cable , tv remote control . project manager: tv only . user interface: so these are two models of existing remote controls . uh the one on the left seems to be a fairly uh standard universal remote control . project manager: ugh . user interface: it has fast-forward , stop , play , all relating to movies . it also has seems to have channel up and channel down , which is which is more what you 'd expect from a , you know , like a sky or cable remote control project manager: hmm . user interface: where you 've got hundreds of channels instead of a merely terrestrial one . uh but i think we should be looking more along the lines of the one on the right , which has it also has play , stop and pause and everything , i do n't think we need them at all . i think we just need channel selection , volume up , volume down and i think an an enter function where you can access it 's not like teletext , but along the same lines , access things on the screen . uh not related to the internet one that you mentioned , because that 'd be far outside our budget and what we want this to do . project manager: mm . and exceed the requirements they 're expecting of us . user interface: so it really exceed the requirements , 'cause the requirements really are just want to be able to change channels and functions , which is more a text on the screen thing than uh than actual buttons project manager: okay . user interface: o i was thinking something some smooth , sleek , little remote control with big user-friendly buttons and uh a menu that you can access . project manager: alright . user interface: uh but then i do think we need to discuss the speech um recognition possibility . project manager: okay . any uh thing else you wan na add ? user interface: no . project manager: okay . user interface: but we could go back to the pictures of the uh , what 're they called ? the pictures of the remote controls and possibly discuss what we think about them , marketing: or if user interface: but maybe should hear what kate has to say first . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . let 's hear what kate has to say . user interface: okay then . marketing: maybe afterwards we could do a uh whiteboard with that your the one on the right as a as a basis . project manager: hmm . marketing: whiteboard session . project manager: i think the white that one on the right is , as well as less cluttered , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: definitely less cluttered and i mean but still it 's project manager: it 's there user interface: sorry project manager: but it 's user interface: i was just i 'll just uh resume something else i was gon na say . marketing: user interface: the the style of these is terrible . project manager: yeah . user interface: i i i really think we need to uh not only possibly even materials , like the type of plastic used , but everything including size and shape of buttons , positioning of buttons , the actual shape of the hand-held device , colours , just every e yeah , everything to do with this has to be revolutionised . marketing: the ergonomics , the way it fits in your project manager: hmm . marketing: yeah . user interface: but project manager: user interface: so that 's that for now . industrial designer: cheers . mm , i have n't actually got a display on my screen . project manager: okay . industrial designer: still , i 'll do without that . okay um , now i wan na bring us down to earth again i 'm afraid and talk about the actual practicalities of how the thing needs to work . um oh and this is the methodology i used in preparing for this meeting . um basically i 've been doing a little bit of web-based research , and if i had a design team , i would 've been discussing my ideas with 'em . but the the net result is that i 've come up with a first cut for the working design that i 'd like to discuss with you . so , let 's go back to what the basic function of a remote control is . it 's for sending a message , um typically um via infrared . and the the basic components we 've got to build in for our twelve euros fifty are um an energy source , the user interface and which will um in incorporate um an integrated circuit that actually composes the message um based on what the which buttons the user presses , we turn that into a message , um and then we need a sending mechanism to send it to the receiver . now i would have hoped i think that 's my only slide actually , yeah . i would have have hoped to um do you a pretty powerpoint slide of um my first cut design , but unfortunately the technology defeated me , so if you 'll bear with me i 'll do it on the whiteboard . so we want an energy source which is there . and we 've got to think about what that might be . project manager: hmm-mm . industrial designer: uh we obviously do n't want wires on this thing . uh typically it would be a battery , but i 'm open to suggestions . um and then we have the the user interface . oops . and the main components in there are the the th the chip that actually has the intelligence of the machine that translates button presses into a message , which it then transfers to some sending mechanism , which encodes it and sends the message to the receiver . so those are the basic things that we 've got to get in for our twelve euros fifty . thank you . project manager: hmm . okay . right . but those things as long as we can get those components , the block , that that rectangle for the user interface , is where the user comes in of what what does it look like ? what do the buttons look like ? uh what does it feel like ? that 's where the user interface is really coming into its own . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: the technical end is what 's actually gon na be in there , but also it has to be easy enough to change or repair if something goes wrong . for example the battery energy source or um what if the chip , for whatever reason , breaks down after a certain amount of time , do you just replace it ? um is there any um because it may be in the same area with several other user interfaces , like for d_v_d_s , movies , whatever . um does it have to have a a way of being segregated from the others , in a different frequency or something ? industrial designer: well i may be wrong here , but i 'd been thinking of this device as being a a cheap mass-produced device . we 're trying to sell four million of 'em , project manager: mm . industrial designer: um that 's that 's , you know , that 's almost one in every tenth household or whatever it is . um and i had n't thought of it as being a reparable thing , project manager: okay . industrial designer: you just if it goes wrong you chuck it out , and that 's why i 'm a bit concerned . i like the idea of speech recognition , that 's a great idea , but i 'm not convinced we can put it into this box for the price that we need gon na need to hit . project manager: okay . user interface: whoop . marketing: do we have um ki some idea of how much it would cost to create a device that has these basic elements ? user interface: is n't that your job ? marketing: because then project manager: oh . industrial designer: marketing: no , user interface: oh right . marketing: the chip composer marketing . oh no , the chip composer sender . project manager: mm . what they cost . industrial designer: um , i 'm i 'm i 'm hoping that my personal coach is gon na give me some advice on that , if you 're asking me , marketing: i i do n't believe i know , um . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . industrial designer: but marketing: be because then we would ha ha figure out how much we had to play with in terms of user interface and this look and feel idea . user interface: yeah . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: it does it does seem as if we 're just to do something really simple and mass-produced , the which is pretty much the same as these existing models , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: just maybe a little bit more inspired , marketing: inspired ? user interface: but basically just the same . marketing: mm . user interface: although what what uh suddenly came into my head is , you know how they always take two a_a_ batteries which which is really not very efficient at all . could it be possible to have uh , you know , like a rechargeable internal battery , like , well , like an m_p_ three player does ? with that you could jus or a mobile phone or whatever . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: you could you know , you just plug into a power source for a couple of hours , and then it 's recharged for ages and ages and ages , and you do n't have to worry with replacing a_a_ batteries , marketing: well user interface: which are marketing: that has another element , which is if every time you 're done using the remote you put it on a charger , then you then it has a place . project manager: mm . user interface: you 'd never need uh batteries would y uh yeah . marketing: yeah , but it also has a place , user interface: and it 's not stuck down the back of the sofa . marketing: so exactly . project manager: mm . user interface: but then again i d i do n't know if this is within our price range or not . marketing: that 's a really good idea . industrial designer: well i uh think that 's a very interesting idea , but um i 'm not a very good industrial designer and i do n't know much about what these things cost . i 'll do some research for the next meeting . project manager: okay . user interface: marketing: well it 's better than my idea about solar , probably . project manager: uh yeah . industrial designer: well solar may not be so good when you 're watching tv in the night , marketing: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: but project manager: mm . user interface: well it is just so annoying how marketing: depen project manager: it would have to sor store up the energy marketing: mm . yeah . industrial designer: yeah , i guess . project manager: and then use it . solar can do that . industrial designer: we may be talking quite heavy then . project manager: m yeah , that would be too heavy marketing: yeah . project manager: and it 'd cost too much . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: no , but just a rechargeable internal battery would probably i mean it might cost more to at first to develop and to install , marketing: mm-hmm user interface: but for long-term use it 'll be so much more convenient and economic than fiddling around trying to replace chunky a_a_ batteries and not having any in your kitchen drawer marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and industrial designer: so do you think we might make that a selling point if it was something that we found we could afford to develop ? user interface: you know f marketing: definitely , project manager: mm . marketing: 'cause i 'm thinking in terms of um uh the loss and breakage of um remotes , how much of that is is to do with it not really having a uh a home , a um a nest , a place to live , user interface: mm . project manager: mm . user interface: sort of have its little dock that you could put it in . industrial designer: marketing: exactly . project manager: yeah . marketing: so if you can dock it , um you know , you could s argue that this is project manager: and the dock could look very fancy and that could be your inspiration of having it looking decent . marketing: exactly . user interface: still i do n't know if it 's quite within our price range . project manager: hmm . marketing: mm . 'cause you are talking about another component , like another piece of hardware . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . okay . marketing: mm . project manager: are we agreed as to what our target group is though ? pretty much , so that we 'd be looking for the younger end . marketing: well i i brought up some exactly , but i think you raised some good questions about are there enough of these people out there , or are they making purchasing decisions ? industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: you know , industrial designer: i was wondering that , marketing: these are the industrial designer: because i ag i agree that there there 're people with uh how can i put it , more money than sense and who are liable to buy something new , project manager: i i s usually put more money than brains . marketing: yeah , exactly . industrial designer: but bu but what i was gon na say was , although they they may be buying um , you know , personal music devices and all that , marketing: oh oh oh i 'll make a note of that , kate . good , good comment . industrial designer: are they necessarily buying tv remote controls ? because they probably live in a household that has a tv if they 're at the lower end of the age range , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i do n't know . user interface: yeah . marketing: it might be good to know um uh who , you know , who 's actually buying televisions and are we in a uh uh s region where people have more than one television in a home ? industrial designer: mm . i think we 've got a big hill to climb here , have n't we ? i mean we 've got ta persuade people who 've got a remote control 'cause it came with the telly that they should buy our product instead . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm . yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: or do we s make sure that it goes to the man through the manufacturer ? we sell to the manufacturer as the remote that goes with it . industrial designer: right , good point . yeah , yeah okay , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , good point . user interface: that 's probably more what it is . marketing: yeah . project manager: what would be a more efficient way of doing it ? marketing: yeah , and and some of our d_v_d_ players incidentally have them , because we have the relationship with our own department , but moreover we need to to go for the the manufacturers . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . right . user interface: we 're not gon na get any resolutions by the end of the day , project manager: probably not . user interface: are we ? marketing: mm . project manager: um the other thing that we 're supposed to do is make decision on our functions . our functions , we 've so far decided , i think , that power , channel , volume make it attractive . um it has to have an enter key and of course the number keys . it has to have big user-friendly buttons and sh n definitely we wan na be inspired that the current styles are just plain awful . user interface: yeah . marketing: do we need um let me project manager: is that agreeable to everyone ? marketing: br actually , um industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: the enter key i have a chart here that i did n't include . um project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: do you want the gizmo ? marketing: yeah , which might project manager: throw some light on that . marketing: th yeah , th those are felt like had a lot of charts . project manager: um actually we 're , you know , we are almost a half hour out of the forty minutes , so we have to get close to finishing . marketing: okay , i i my only comment is i think maybe um we could somehow include an enter key in like a power key if power power was enter and pow that was my only just really in terms of streamlining . project manager: ah . mm-hmm . okay . enter , power as a s oh um a sum simultaneous key . marketing: um exactly . again , you know , project manager: is that okay with you ? marketing: thinking of menus or user interface: sorry , project manager: would that industrial designer: h how does that work ? user interface: i was miles away . industrial designer: how so so how does that work , user interface: i was re i was reading the chart to be honest . marketing: um well project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: how do you avoid switching the thing off when you actually wan na press enter ? marketing: if you 're pressing enter , the the thing would already be on , and so maybe um when you press power , initially it turns it on , press power again and use that as an enter um project manager: then you 'd have to have an off te off key . marketing: so you press power after you 've um well i was thinking maybe you to turn it off you 'd have to press power twice in succession , industrial designer: okay , yep , mm-hmm . project manager: mm . marketing: and maybe power follows something like a channel up channel down power , and then that would make that choice . industrial designer: it 's not getting a bit complicated ? could granny do this , marketing: well industrial designer: or are we just not aiming at granny ? marketing: or y yeah . or something that has a a turning dial , where at the far end is on or off . user interface: who 's got an ipod then ? industrial designer: marketing: yeah , project manager: mm . okay . marketing: i do n't um i wish . anyway , uh that was the only comment about um some of the the decisions people have made , what 's most important . project manager: mm . marketing: it 's definitely channel , volume , power . user interface: yeah , things like screen settings and audio settings , i would generally do them on the actual television itself , marketing: exactly . user interface: like here you have a you know , a little flap th with a little control panel on the actual box itself . marketing: exactly . user interface: i i would n't know how to do it using a remote control , marketing: yeah . user interface: so um i would say that they are definitely less relevant . project manager: okay . so marketing: okay , well . thanks for looking at that . project manager: i guess easy to use is the other thing that we want 'em to be able to do . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: as you said , you know , do n't make it too hard for the granny . marketing: we do n't wan na outsmart project manager: i just joined that set last week . marketing: hmm . project manager: um first grandchild arrived . marketing: congratulations . industrial designer: mm . user interface: industrial designer: uh . project manager: um so are we agreed then of those things ? and let 's go back to agenda marketing: d project manager: and hook me up . mm . this oughta be fun . it probably wo n't go the first time , it 'll probably be like a g mess . come on . uh it lost it off here . uh marketing: oh you 're fine . it 's fine . project manager: no , it was up there , but i could n't see it down here . mm . this time it should be both . there we go . industrial designer: how do you do that ? how do you make it do both ? project manager: um you have to keep doing the financi the the f_n_ and f_ eight to five minutes to finish , industrial designer: ah okay , it toggles through , project manager: thank you a lot for telling me . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um right , marketing: i think you have to cycle through . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: we 're ready to close . um will be completed q questionnaire , um then we 'll have some time for individual work to continue our research um and i 'll put some minutes of this meeting together . um your individual assignments are for um kate to do the components , for you , steph , to do the user interface and for you the trend-watching . um and each of us will get help from our coach . are we agreed to get ourselves together and then have lunch ? user interface: yes . project manager: okay . industrial designer: sounds good . project manager: then that 's the end of this meeting . and i hope that 's good enough for her to tell her that 's the end . okay ? industrial designer: okay . user interface: we did n't come to any sort of decision on the functions though . project manager: well i think i went over the functions and wrote them down and marked them . user interface: alright , well that 's fine then . project manager: um that 's what i went over and nobody was objecting to them . marketing: okay . um and you 'd mentioned i i was just gon na say , could you reiterate the new project requirements , project manager: okay . marketing: because it they were it has to be for a tv , just to keep myself project manager: um the teletext is outdated , industrial designer: so we 're still in meeting , are n't we ? project manager: the internet is important , marketing: yeah , i think i 've project manager: it 's only to be for a tv and it must include the corporate image , colour and slogan um marketing: okay . project manager: which i think is more in the user uh range , with steph . user interface: mm . sorry , what what actually are these is that the yellow and black ? project manager: it does n't tell me . marketing: mm . user interface: from their i 'll just use it from their website . project manager: mm-hmm . okay ? user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . marketing: right . thank you .

marketing held the opinion that they had to make some change on the button . according to the market research , fifty percent of users dislike the current look and feel of remote control , and only use ten percent of the buttons . more importantly , eighty percent would spend more money on a fancy remote control . the research showed that it was the time to discard some unnecessary buttons and made it fancier .

according to marketing , why was the revolution of interaction necessary ? </s> project manager: uh it fell off . one , two , three , four , yeah , we 're ready . okay . welcome to this second meeting . um it 's now quarter after twelve and we 're given forty minutes um for this meeting . this is a meeting on functional design . um and i wan na welcome you all and thank you all for doing some research in between . um i did took the minutes from the first meeting and i 'll show them to you in a moment . um i know each of you have a presentation and um in thinking about the forty minutes , i thought it would take only like three minutes for the previous minutes , um each of you having about seven minutes or maybe a little more , maybe a little less for your pre presentations and a little discussion , because there 's i happen to have been told there were some new project requirements and we have to make some uh decision on what functions it will have . okay ? is this ap everybody agree with this ? industrial designer: oops . user interface: yes . marketing: yes . project manager: okay . um and after the meeting there 'll be things to be done and as you can see it says we get to get lunch , um and then some more individual work and then putting minutes away and individual actions . um but uh now for the minutes of the first meeting . and go to that one . um as you can see it was this earlier today . um kate , steph , sarah and myself in our four capacities were present . i opened the meeting , the product was developed uh and reviewed , and we talked about the financial end of it . um and it had some implications , um the four million sales target and new ideas of not too many buttons , bright colours and some of the influence of the japanese . and we closed early so you could then proceed with your research and getting your reports together for tod this meeting anybody have any questions on those minutes ? are they complete , did they discuss everything that we covered last time ? 'kay . industrial designer: uh i think so , project manager: did i miss something ? industrial designer: we we we talked about the the individual roles that we each had as well . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . i 'm afraid i incorporated that when i said who was present , but yes , we did , industrial designer: okay . project manager: and we did a little bit of uh team building of uh of making the pictures , marketing: okay , i accept the minutes . project manager: but i did n't think those were appropriate to the minutes necessarily . so um as a group i think we 've are they 're accepting the minutes . and uh okay . marketing: is that what we 're supposed to say ? project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , i do . project manager: good . um , then we 'll move to the three presentations . okay ? marketing: okay . project manager: okay . mm we need to move this . who wants to go f first ? that 's as far as it goes . user interface: uh not really meant to touch those microphones . oh it does n't have any on , does it ? that 's fine . marketing: excellent , thank you . industrial designer: oy , big loop under the table . project manager: she said we did n't need to screw it in . marketing: okay . okay , that looks good . project manager: it 's doing its thing . there we are . marketing: alright . thank you very much . um . one of the the biggest issues i found about um from last meeting was the fact that we need to sell four million of these um remote controls and i think that this is an opportunity to really take real reaction in the direction of of similar of handheld tools that have been used and are used by many of us and to kind of bring the remote control into the si same realm as an accessible um useful electronic device , as opposed to something that is lost in the couch and what have you . so um my main goal here is to re-envision the remote control in in this context and to think about menu functionality and current technology and the fact that it could be interactive with other tools . um some of the research uh in the market has shown that people really are not happy with remote controls as they are now , and um that means we do need to make some decisions about what what keys or or buttons on the on the remote control to perhaps keep and and what ones to discard . and if we devote some energy into this , i think the um recent productions of real reaction , the i go everywhere power and the high definition d_v_d_ players although it makes immediate sense to have our remote control interact with these , i think we can also use this as a platform to make it interact with other tools . and um in fact i think the high definition d_v_d_ players and all of this will come along in the uh will only benefit from the positive feedback from our well designed tool . so again , most uh users really dislike the current look and feel of remote controls . um fifty percent i think of all these uh numbers the most important is fifty percent of user say they only use ten percent of the buttons . and eighty percent of users , and if we think about this there are a lot of uh television , d_v_d_ , stereo remote control users out there , eighty percent would spend more money on a remote control that looks fancy . industrial designer: could can i ask where these figures come from , is this market research we 've marketing: um it was market research and there were a hundred people in the room , so eighty out of a hundred said they would spend more money . project manager: now in between , as the project manager , they sent me an email from the powers that be industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: um that teletext is outdated um marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and the internet is coming in as important , but that they want this remote control to only be for tv um with incorporating the corporate image , colour and slogan . marketing: mm-hmm . well i think we can i i think we can really focus on this remote and and again bring the real reaction um brand in in and and get some positive marketing for our other tools , even if we directly do n't um advertise for the i go everywhere line . project manager: mm . marketing: so an interesting um element was the would you pay more for speech recognition question . so these market research uh uh questionnaires looked into your your uh concern about technology project manager: hmm . industrial designer: marketing: and s specifically wanted to find out information about speech recognition . project manager: okay . marketing: now the early adopters , those of us who grew up with technology and uh luck lucky for us have the uh cash to to pay for it , the young age group without the mortgages and responsibilities , ninety one percent of them would pay more for speech recognition in a remote control . very interesting , i i leave this up to the group to decide if we wan na use this uh if and you know , the the designers , project manager: mm . marketing: but ninety one percent , fifteen to twenty five project manager: is that a large enough target market to target it ? marketing: well , i i i think especially in terms of growth , i think this would be a very smart group to target . i mean s three quarters of the next age group , twenty five to thirty five are interested , and uh with the technologies improving , if we can get these uh project manager: in real numbers , does the ninety one percent and the seventy six percent translate to ex in excess of the four million ? marketing: yeah . to um yes . project manager: or eight million . marketing: yes . but would you pay more and does it work and is it approachable and and did i know that it was it was an project manager: hmm . marketing: that 's a that 's a very good question . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um marketing: i do n't know if speech recognition should be um should be included , project manager: mm . marketing: but i think it 's an interesting i think that maybe shows more about uh being open to technology . project manager: mm . user interface: uh it definitely needs uh a lot more research marketing: shall i go back ? user interface: on like how much more it would be and any , you know , existing examples , marketing: yeah , yeah . user interface: and what reactions to them have been , and that sort of thing . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: how d i 'm wondering how how ou how our target price compares with the the typical price of these things . i expect an industrial designer should know that , but if we 're aiming to to build this thing for twelve euros fifty , um is that a lot or a little ? marketing: exactly . i mean i i i uh did not receive any information on that , but i think the competition , sussing out what other people are doing and what 's in the pipeline is very very important , because um there is a question about do you want an lcd screen and and that was n't responded to , but uh some of the larger remotes do have screens where you can navigate , you know , so it turns into something uh perhaps you all have seen uh the osbournes where ozzy osbourne is is attempting to manage his super entertainment system with something that looks like a uh a small tray . industrial designer: sh surely he 's in the wrong age group . marketing: you know , project manager: marketing: it 's i a and i think , you know industrial designer: he must be w one of a s small population . marketing: no , no , project manager: mm . marketing: you kate , you 're exactly right there . but i think the key is to get the early adopters , people who are familiar with technology and and uh they 'll be project manager: but we 're not looking at whether they 're early adopters on that screen , marketing: uh , mm . project manager: that 's looking at age groups . marketing: exactly . i yes , and i 'm making and i 'm making the the uh uh leap that people who are familiar younger people are l are more familiar with technology than than older people . or comfortable , project manager: leap . hmm . mm . marketing: you know , um so project manager: okay , you had the other power channel . marketing: i think the most important thing is an attractive streamlined remote control and to be extraordinarily reductionist , power , channel , volume and everything else is is uh up to the designers . and this is this is also supported by the market research . project manager: okay . marketing: thank you . that 's my contribution . project manager: alright . and we 'll turn to the next presentation . i think she said we do n't need to screw it in , just stick it in . and then press , what ? f f_n_ and f_ eight . next to the control button on the bottom , and then f_ eight at the top . user interface: yeah , press them . project manager: and then w be patient . user interface: yeah , here we go . project manager: tada . industrial designer: and if you want it to go into slide show mode , it 's that little button there . user interface: can i not just uh do each one in order ? industrial designer: i you can if you like , it it that that just sets it up to do a p a p project manager: there we are . yay . user interface: that ? industrial designer: no that one , that one there . user interface: that ? industrial designer: left , left a bit , left a bit , that one , yep . user interface: that ? right , technical functions design . uh well i think first off , basically i do agree with what sarah has defined as as uh your personal preferences , yeah . i think we need uh a more streamlined volume with no extraneous functions . so my method was to look at the existing remotes and what functions they have . and what we all need to discuss is whether we want these functions uh pretty much the same as what existing remotes have . if we can build on this with the speech recognition , that 's not something i 'd thought about at all , but it 's also something we can discuss . project manager: okay . user interface: um and and i presume we can miss out the functions really to to a video or d_v_d_ remote control , if this is only gon na be a , you know , satellite , cable , tv remote control . project manager: tv only . user interface: so these are two models of existing remote controls . uh the one on the left seems to be a fairly uh standard universal remote control . project manager: ugh . user interface: it has fast-forward , stop , play , all relating to movies . it also has seems to have channel up and channel down , which is which is more what you 'd expect from a , you know , like a sky or cable remote control project manager: hmm . user interface: where you 've got hundreds of channels instead of a merely terrestrial one . uh but i think we should be looking more along the lines of the one on the right , which has it also has play , stop and pause and everything , i do n't think we need them at all . i think we just need channel selection , volume up , volume down and i think an an enter function where you can access it 's not like teletext , but along the same lines , access things on the screen . uh not related to the internet one that you mentioned , because that 'd be far outside our budget and what we want this to do . project manager: mm . and exceed the requirements they 're expecting of us . user interface: so it really exceed the requirements , 'cause the requirements really are just want to be able to change channels and functions , which is more a text on the screen thing than uh than actual buttons project manager: okay . user interface: o i was thinking something some smooth , sleek , little remote control with big user-friendly buttons and uh a menu that you can access . project manager: alright . user interface: uh but then i do think we need to discuss the speech um recognition possibility . project manager: okay . any uh thing else you wan na add ? user interface: no . project manager: okay . user interface: but we could go back to the pictures of the uh , what 're they called ? the pictures of the remote controls and possibly discuss what we think about them , marketing: or if user interface: but maybe should hear what kate has to say first . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . let 's hear what kate has to say . user interface: okay then . marketing: maybe afterwards we could do a uh whiteboard with that your the one on the right as a as a basis . project manager: hmm . marketing: whiteboard session . project manager: i think the white that one on the right is , as well as less cluttered , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: definitely less cluttered and i mean but still it 's project manager: it 's there user interface: sorry project manager: but it 's user interface: i was just i 'll just uh resume something else i was gon na say . marketing: user interface: the the style of these is terrible . project manager: yeah . user interface: i i i really think we need to uh not only possibly even materials , like the type of plastic used , but everything including size and shape of buttons , positioning of buttons , the actual shape of the hand-held device , colours , just every e yeah , everything to do with this has to be revolutionised . marketing: the ergonomics , the way it fits in your project manager: hmm . marketing: yeah . user interface: but project manager: user interface: so that 's that for now . industrial designer: cheers . mm , i have n't actually got a display on my screen . project manager: okay . industrial designer: still , i 'll do without that . okay um , now i wan na bring us down to earth again i 'm afraid and talk about the actual practicalities of how the thing needs to work . um oh and this is the methodology i used in preparing for this meeting . um basically i 've been doing a little bit of web-based research , and if i had a design team , i would 've been discussing my ideas with 'em . but the the net result is that i 've come up with a first cut for the working design that i 'd like to discuss with you . so , let 's go back to what the basic function of a remote control is . it 's for sending a message , um typically um via infrared . and the the basic components we 've got to build in for our twelve euros fifty are um an energy source , the user interface and which will um in incorporate um an integrated circuit that actually composes the message um based on what the which buttons the user presses , we turn that into a message , um and then we need a sending mechanism to send it to the receiver . now i would have hoped i think that 's my only slide actually , yeah . i would have have hoped to um do you a pretty powerpoint slide of um my first cut design , but unfortunately the technology defeated me , so if you 'll bear with me i 'll do it on the whiteboard . so we want an energy source which is there . and we 've got to think about what that might be . project manager: hmm-mm . industrial designer: uh we obviously do n't want wires on this thing . uh typically it would be a battery , but i 'm open to suggestions . um and then we have the the user interface . oops . and the main components in there are the the th the chip that actually has the intelligence of the machine that translates button presses into a message , which it then transfers to some sending mechanism , which encodes it and sends the message to the receiver . so those are the basic things that we 've got to get in for our twelve euros fifty . thank you . project manager: hmm . okay . right . but those things as long as we can get those components , the block , that that rectangle for the user interface , is where the user comes in of what what does it look like ? what do the buttons look like ? uh what does it feel like ? that 's where the user interface is really coming into its own . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: the technical end is what 's actually gon na be in there , but also it has to be easy enough to change or repair if something goes wrong . for example the battery energy source or um what if the chip , for whatever reason , breaks down after a certain amount of time , do you just replace it ? um is there any um because it may be in the same area with several other user interfaces , like for d_v_d_s , movies , whatever . um does it have to have a a way of being segregated from the others , in a different frequency or something ? industrial designer: well i may be wrong here , but i 'd been thinking of this device as being a a cheap mass-produced device . we 're trying to sell four million of 'em , project manager: mm . industrial designer: um that 's that 's , you know , that 's almost one in every tenth household or whatever it is . um and i had n't thought of it as being a reparable thing , project manager: okay . industrial designer: you just if it goes wrong you chuck it out , and that 's why i 'm a bit concerned . i like the idea of speech recognition , that 's a great idea , but i 'm not convinced we can put it into this box for the price that we need gon na need to hit . project manager: okay . user interface: whoop . marketing: do we have um ki some idea of how much it would cost to create a device that has these basic elements ? user interface: is n't that your job ? marketing: because then project manager: oh . industrial designer: marketing: no , user interface: oh right . marketing: the chip composer marketing . oh no , the chip composer sender . project manager: mm . what they cost . industrial designer: um , i 'm i 'm i 'm hoping that my personal coach is gon na give me some advice on that , if you 're asking me , marketing: i i do n't believe i know , um . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . industrial designer: but marketing: be because then we would ha ha figure out how much we had to play with in terms of user interface and this look and feel idea . user interface: yeah . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: it does it does seem as if we 're just to do something really simple and mass-produced , the which is pretty much the same as these existing models , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: just maybe a little bit more inspired , marketing: inspired ? user interface: but basically just the same . marketing: mm . user interface: although what what uh suddenly came into my head is , you know how they always take two a_a_ batteries which which is really not very efficient at all . could it be possible to have uh , you know , like a rechargeable internal battery , like , well , like an m_p_ three player does ? with that you could jus or a mobile phone or whatever . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: you could you know , you just plug into a power source for a couple of hours , and then it 's recharged for ages and ages and ages , and you do n't have to worry with replacing a_a_ batteries , marketing: well user interface: which are marketing: that has another element , which is if every time you 're done using the remote you put it on a charger , then you then it has a place . project manager: mm . user interface: you 'd never need uh batteries would y uh yeah . marketing: yeah , but it also has a place , user interface: and it 's not stuck down the back of the sofa . marketing: so exactly . project manager: mm . user interface: but then again i d i do n't know if this is within our price range or not . marketing: that 's a really good idea . industrial designer: well i uh think that 's a very interesting idea , but um i 'm not a very good industrial designer and i do n't know much about what these things cost . i 'll do some research for the next meeting . project manager: okay . user interface: marketing: well it 's better than my idea about solar , probably . project manager: uh yeah . industrial designer: well solar may not be so good when you 're watching tv in the night , marketing: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: but project manager: mm . user interface: well it is just so annoying how marketing: depen project manager: it would have to sor store up the energy marketing: mm . yeah . industrial designer: yeah , i guess . project manager: and then use it . solar can do that . industrial designer: we may be talking quite heavy then . project manager: m yeah , that would be too heavy marketing: yeah . project manager: and it 'd cost too much . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: no , but just a rechargeable internal battery would probably i mean it might cost more to at first to develop and to install , marketing: mm-hmm user interface: but for long-term use it 'll be so much more convenient and economic than fiddling around trying to replace chunky a_a_ batteries and not having any in your kitchen drawer marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and industrial designer: so do you think we might make that a selling point if it was something that we found we could afford to develop ? user interface: you know f marketing: definitely , project manager: mm . marketing: 'cause i 'm thinking in terms of um uh the loss and breakage of um remotes , how much of that is is to do with it not really having a uh a home , a um a nest , a place to live , user interface: mm . project manager: mm . user interface: sort of have its little dock that you could put it in . industrial designer: marketing: exactly . project manager: yeah . marketing: so if you can dock it , um you know , you could s argue that this is project manager: and the dock could look very fancy and that could be your inspiration of having it looking decent . marketing: exactly . user interface: still i do n't know if it 's quite within our price range . project manager: hmm . marketing: mm . 'cause you are talking about another component , like another piece of hardware . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . okay . marketing: mm . project manager: are we agreed as to what our target group is though ? pretty much , so that we 'd be looking for the younger end . marketing: well i i brought up some exactly , but i think you raised some good questions about are there enough of these people out there , or are they making purchasing decisions ? industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: you know , industrial designer: i was wondering that , marketing: these are the industrial designer: because i ag i agree that there there 're people with uh how can i put it , more money than sense and who are liable to buy something new , project manager: i i s usually put more money than brains . marketing: yeah , exactly . industrial designer: but bu but what i was gon na say was , although they they may be buying um , you know , personal music devices and all that , marketing: oh oh oh i 'll make a note of that , kate . good , good comment . industrial designer: are they necessarily buying tv remote controls ? because they probably live in a household that has a tv if they 're at the lower end of the age range , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i do n't know . user interface: yeah . marketing: it might be good to know um uh who , you know , who 's actually buying televisions and are we in a uh uh s region where people have more than one television in a home ? industrial designer: mm . i think we 've got a big hill to climb here , have n't we ? i mean we 've got ta persuade people who 've got a remote control 'cause it came with the telly that they should buy our product instead . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm . yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: or do we s make sure that it goes to the man through the manufacturer ? we sell to the manufacturer as the remote that goes with it . industrial designer: right , good point . yeah , yeah okay , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , good point . user interface: that 's probably more what it is . marketing: yeah . project manager: what would be a more efficient way of doing it ? marketing: yeah , and and some of our d_v_d_ players incidentally have them , because we have the relationship with our own department , but moreover we need to to go for the the manufacturers . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . right . user interface: we 're not gon na get any resolutions by the end of the day , project manager: probably not . user interface: are we ? marketing: mm . project manager: um the other thing that we 're supposed to do is make decision on our functions . our functions , we 've so far decided , i think , that power , channel , volume make it attractive . um it has to have an enter key and of course the number keys . it has to have big user-friendly buttons and sh n definitely we wan na be inspired that the current styles are just plain awful . user interface: yeah . marketing: do we need um let me project manager: is that agreeable to everyone ? marketing: br actually , um industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: the enter key i have a chart here that i did n't include . um project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: do you want the gizmo ? marketing: yeah , which might project manager: throw some light on that . marketing: th yeah , th those are felt like had a lot of charts . project manager: um actually we 're , you know , we are almost a half hour out of the forty minutes , so we have to get close to finishing . marketing: okay , i i my only comment is i think maybe um we could somehow include an enter key in like a power key if power power was enter and pow that was my only just really in terms of streamlining . project manager: ah . mm-hmm . okay . enter , power as a s oh um a sum simultaneous key . marketing: um exactly . again , you know , project manager: is that okay with you ? marketing: thinking of menus or user interface: sorry , project manager: would that industrial designer: h how does that work ? user interface: i was miles away . industrial designer: how so so how does that work , user interface: i was re i was reading the chart to be honest . marketing: um well project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: how do you avoid switching the thing off when you actually wan na press enter ? marketing: if you 're pressing enter , the the thing would already be on , and so maybe um when you press power , initially it turns it on , press power again and use that as an enter um project manager: then you 'd have to have an off te off key . marketing: so you press power after you 've um well i was thinking maybe you to turn it off you 'd have to press power twice in succession , industrial designer: okay , yep , mm-hmm . project manager: mm . marketing: and maybe power follows something like a channel up channel down power , and then that would make that choice . industrial designer: it 's not getting a bit complicated ? could granny do this , marketing: well industrial designer: or are we just not aiming at granny ? marketing: or y yeah . or something that has a a turning dial , where at the far end is on or off . user interface: who 's got an ipod then ? industrial designer: marketing: yeah , project manager: mm . okay . marketing: i do n't um i wish . anyway , uh that was the only comment about um some of the the decisions people have made , what 's most important . project manager: mm . marketing: it 's definitely channel , volume , power . user interface: yeah , things like screen settings and audio settings , i would generally do them on the actual television itself , marketing: exactly . user interface: like here you have a you know , a little flap th with a little control panel on the actual box itself . marketing: exactly . user interface: i i would n't know how to do it using a remote control , marketing: yeah . user interface: so um i would say that they are definitely less relevant . project manager: okay . so marketing: okay , well . thanks for looking at that . project manager: i guess easy to use is the other thing that we want 'em to be able to do . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: as you said , you know , do n't make it too hard for the granny . marketing: we do n't wan na outsmart project manager: i just joined that set last week . marketing: hmm . project manager: um first grandchild arrived . marketing: congratulations . industrial designer: mm . user interface: industrial designer: uh . project manager: um so are we agreed then of those things ? and let 's go back to agenda marketing: d project manager: and hook me up . mm . this oughta be fun . it probably wo n't go the first time , it 'll probably be like a g mess . come on . uh it lost it off here . uh marketing: oh you 're fine . it 's fine . project manager: no , it was up there , but i could n't see it down here . mm . this time it should be both . there we go . industrial designer: how do you do that ? how do you make it do both ? project manager: um you have to keep doing the financi the the f_n_ and f_ eight to five minutes to finish , industrial designer: ah okay , it toggles through , project manager: thank you a lot for telling me . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um right , marketing: i think you have to cycle through . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: we 're ready to close . um will be completed q questionnaire , um then we 'll have some time for individual work to continue our research um and i 'll put some minutes of this meeting together . um your individual assignments are for um kate to do the components , for you , steph , to do the user interface and for you the trend-watching . um and each of us will get help from our coach . are we agreed to get ourselves together and then have lunch ? user interface: yes . project manager: okay . industrial designer: sounds good . project manager: then that 's the end of this meeting . and i hope that 's good enough for her to tell her that 's the end . okay ? industrial designer: okay . user interface: we did n't come to any sort of decision on the functions though . project manager: well i think i went over the functions and wrote them down and marked them . user interface: alright , well that 's fine then . project manager: um that 's what i went over and nobody was objecting to them . marketing: okay . um and you 'd mentioned i i was just gon na say , could you reiterate the new project requirements , project manager: okay . marketing: because it they were it has to be for a tv , just to keep myself project manager: um the teletext is outdated , industrial designer: so we 're still in meeting , are n't we ? project manager: the internet is important , marketing: yeah , i think i 've project manager: it 's only to be for a tv and it must include the corporate image , colour and slogan um marketing: okay . project manager: which i think is more in the user uh range , with steph . user interface: mm . sorry , what what actually are these is that the yellow and black ? project manager: it does n't tell me . marketing: mm . user interface: from their i 'll just use it from their website . project manager: mm-hmm . okay ? user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . marketing: right . thank you .

the market research showed that many people were dissatisfied with the current remote control . therefore , it was necessary to bring new technology into the product , which could also help to get positive marketing for other tools .

summarize the discussion about the functions and source of the power of the remote control . </s> project manager: uh it fell off . one , two , three , four , yeah , we 're ready . okay . welcome to this second meeting . um it 's now quarter after twelve and we 're given forty minutes um for this meeting . this is a meeting on functional design . um and i wan na welcome you all and thank you all for doing some research in between . um i did took the minutes from the first meeting and i 'll show them to you in a moment . um i know each of you have a presentation and um in thinking about the forty minutes , i thought it would take only like three minutes for the previous minutes , um each of you having about seven minutes or maybe a little more , maybe a little less for your pre presentations and a little discussion , because there 's i happen to have been told there were some new project requirements and we have to make some uh decision on what functions it will have . okay ? is this ap everybody agree with this ? industrial designer: oops . user interface: yes . marketing: yes . project manager: okay . um and after the meeting there 'll be things to be done and as you can see it says we get to get lunch , um and then some more individual work and then putting minutes away and individual actions . um but uh now for the minutes of the first meeting . and go to that one . um as you can see it was this earlier today . um kate , steph , sarah and myself in our four capacities were present . i opened the meeting , the product was developed uh and reviewed , and we talked about the financial end of it . um and it had some implications , um the four million sales target and new ideas of not too many buttons , bright colours and some of the influence of the japanese . and we closed early so you could then proceed with your research and getting your reports together for tod this meeting anybody have any questions on those minutes ? are they complete , did they discuss everything that we covered last time ? 'kay . industrial designer: uh i think so , project manager: did i miss something ? industrial designer: we we we talked about the the individual roles that we each had as well . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . i 'm afraid i incorporated that when i said who was present , but yes , we did , industrial designer: okay . project manager: and we did a little bit of uh team building of uh of making the pictures , marketing: okay , i accept the minutes . project manager: but i did n't think those were appropriate to the minutes necessarily . so um as a group i think we 've are they 're accepting the minutes . and uh okay . marketing: is that what we 're supposed to say ? project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , i do . project manager: good . um , then we 'll move to the three presentations . okay ? marketing: okay . project manager: okay . mm we need to move this . who wants to go f first ? that 's as far as it goes . user interface: uh not really meant to touch those microphones . oh it does n't have any on , does it ? that 's fine . marketing: excellent , thank you . industrial designer: oy , big loop under the table . project manager: she said we did n't need to screw it in . marketing: okay . okay , that looks good . project manager: it 's doing its thing . there we are . marketing: alright . thank you very much . um . one of the the biggest issues i found about um from last meeting was the fact that we need to sell four million of these um remote controls and i think that this is an opportunity to really take real reaction in the direction of of similar of handheld tools that have been used and are used by many of us and to kind of bring the remote control into the si same realm as an accessible um useful electronic device , as opposed to something that is lost in the couch and what have you . so um my main goal here is to re-envision the remote control in in this context and to think about menu functionality and current technology and the fact that it could be interactive with other tools . um some of the research uh in the market has shown that people really are not happy with remote controls as they are now , and um that means we do need to make some decisions about what what keys or or buttons on the on the remote control to perhaps keep and and what ones to discard . and if we devote some energy into this , i think the um recent productions of real reaction , the i go everywhere power and the high definition d_v_d_ players although it makes immediate sense to have our remote control interact with these , i think we can also use this as a platform to make it interact with other tools . and um in fact i think the high definition d_v_d_ players and all of this will come along in the uh will only benefit from the positive feedback from our well designed tool . so again , most uh users really dislike the current look and feel of remote controls . um fifty percent i think of all these uh numbers the most important is fifty percent of user say they only use ten percent of the buttons . and eighty percent of users , and if we think about this there are a lot of uh television , d_v_d_ , stereo remote control users out there , eighty percent would spend more money on a remote control that looks fancy . industrial designer: could can i ask where these figures come from , is this market research we 've marketing: um it was market research and there were a hundred people in the room , so eighty out of a hundred said they would spend more money . project manager: now in between , as the project manager , they sent me an email from the powers that be industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: um that teletext is outdated um marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and the internet is coming in as important , but that they want this remote control to only be for tv um with incorporating the corporate image , colour and slogan . marketing: mm-hmm . well i think we can i i think we can really focus on this remote and and again bring the real reaction um brand in in and and get some positive marketing for our other tools , even if we directly do n't um advertise for the i go everywhere line . project manager: mm . marketing: so an interesting um element was the would you pay more for speech recognition question . so these market research uh uh questionnaires looked into your your uh concern about technology project manager: hmm . industrial designer: marketing: and s specifically wanted to find out information about speech recognition . project manager: okay . marketing: now the early adopters , those of us who grew up with technology and uh luck lucky for us have the uh cash to to pay for it , the young age group without the mortgages and responsibilities , ninety one percent of them would pay more for speech recognition in a remote control . very interesting , i i leave this up to the group to decide if we wan na use this uh if and you know , the the designers , project manager: mm . marketing: but ninety one percent , fifteen to twenty five project manager: is that a large enough target market to target it ? marketing: well , i i i think especially in terms of growth , i think this would be a very smart group to target . i mean s three quarters of the next age group , twenty five to thirty five are interested , and uh with the technologies improving , if we can get these uh project manager: in real numbers , does the ninety one percent and the seventy six percent translate to ex in excess of the four million ? marketing: yeah . to um yes . project manager: or eight million . marketing: yes . but would you pay more and does it work and is it approachable and and did i know that it was it was an project manager: hmm . marketing: that 's a that 's a very good question . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um marketing: i do n't know if speech recognition should be um should be included , project manager: mm . marketing: but i think it 's an interesting i think that maybe shows more about uh being open to technology . project manager: mm . user interface: uh it definitely needs uh a lot more research marketing: shall i go back ? user interface: on like how much more it would be and any , you know , existing examples , marketing: yeah , yeah . user interface: and what reactions to them have been , and that sort of thing . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: how d i 'm wondering how how ou how our target price compares with the the typical price of these things . i expect an industrial designer should know that , but if we 're aiming to to build this thing for twelve euros fifty , um is that a lot or a little ? marketing: exactly . i mean i i i uh did not receive any information on that , but i think the competition , sussing out what other people are doing and what 's in the pipeline is very very important , because um there is a question about do you want an lcd screen and and that was n't responded to , but uh some of the larger remotes do have screens where you can navigate , you know , so it turns into something uh perhaps you all have seen uh the osbournes where ozzy osbourne is is attempting to manage his super entertainment system with something that looks like a uh a small tray . industrial designer: sh surely he 's in the wrong age group . marketing: you know , project manager: marketing: it 's i a and i think , you know industrial designer: he must be w one of a s small population . marketing: no , no , project manager: mm . marketing: you kate , you 're exactly right there . but i think the key is to get the early adopters , people who are familiar with technology and and uh they 'll be project manager: but we 're not looking at whether they 're early adopters on that screen , marketing: uh , mm . project manager: that 's looking at age groups . marketing: exactly . i yes , and i 'm making and i 'm making the the uh uh leap that people who are familiar younger people are l are more familiar with technology than than older people . or comfortable , project manager: leap . hmm . mm . marketing: you know , um so project manager: okay , you had the other power channel . marketing: i think the most important thing is an attractive streamlined remote control and to be extraordinarily reductionist , power , channel , volume and everything else is is uh up to the designers . and this is this is also supported by the market research . project manager: okay . marketing: thank you . that 's my contribution . project manager: alright . and we 'll turn to the next presentation . i think she said we do n't need to screw it in , just stick it in . and then press , what ? f f_n_ and f_ eight . next to the control button on the bottom , and then f_ eight at the top . user interface: yeah , press them . project manager: and then w be patient . user interface: yeah , here we go . project manager: tada . industrial designer: and if you want it to go into slide show mode , it 's that little button there . user interface: can i not just uh do each one in order ? industrial designer: i you can if you like , it it that that just sets it up to do a p a p project manager: there we are . yay . user interface: that ? industrial designer: no that one , that one there . user interface: that ? industrial designer: left , left a bit , left a bit , that one , yep . user interface: that ? right , technical functions design . uh well i think first off , basically i do agree with what sarah has defined as as uh your personal preferences , yeah . i think we need uh a more streamlined volume with no extraneous functions . so my method was to look at the existing remotes and what functions they have . and what we all need to discuss is whether we want these functions uh pretty much the same as what existing remotes have . if we can build on this with the speech recognition , that 's not something i 'd thought about at all , but it 's also something we can discuss . project manager: okay . user interface: um and and i presume we can miss out the functions really to to a video or d_v_d_ remote control , if this is only gon na be a , you know , satellite , cable , tv remote control . project manager: tv only . user interface: so these are two models of existing remote controls . uh the one on the left seems to be a fairly uh standard universal remote control . project manager: ugh . user interface: it has fast-forward , stop , play , all relating to movies . it also has seems to have channel up and channel down , which is which is more what you 'd expect from a , you know , like a sky or cable remote control project manager: hmm . user interface: where you 've got hundreds of channels instead of a merely terrestrial one . uh but i think we should be looking more along the lines of the one on the right , which has it also has play , stop and pause and everything , i do n't think we need them at all . i think we just need channel selection , volume up , volume down and i think an an enter function where you can access it 's not like teletext , but along the same lines , access things on the screen . uh not related to the internet one that you mentioned , because that 'd be far outside our budget and what we want this to do . project manager: mm . and exceed the requirements they 're expecting of us . user interface: so it really exceed the requirements , 'cause the requirements really are just want to be able to change channels and functions , which is more a text on the screen thing than uh than actual buttons project manager: okay . user interface: o i was thinking something some smooth , sleek , little remote control with big user-friendly buttons and uh a menu that you can access . project manager: alright . user interface: uh but then i do think we need to discuss the speech um recognition possibility . project manager: okay . any uh thing else you wan na add ? user interface: no . project manager: okay . user interface: but we could go back to the pictures of the uh , what 're they called ? the pictures of the remote controls and possibly discuss what we think about them , marketing: or if user interface: but maybe should hear what kate has to say first . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . let 's hear what kate has to say . user interface: okay then . marketing: maybe afterwards we could do a uh whiteboard with that your the one on the right as a as a basis . project manager: hmm . marketing: whiteboard session . project manager: i think the white that one on the right is , as well as less cluttered , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: definitely less cluttered and i mean but still it 's project manager: it 's there user interface: sorry project manager: but it 's user interface: i was just i 'll just uh resume something else i was gon na say . marketing: user interface: the the style of these is terrible . project manager: yeah . user interface: i i i really think we need to uh not only possibly even materials , like the type of plastic used , but everything including size and shape of buttons , positioning of buttons , the actual shape of the hand-held device , colours , just every e yeah , everything to do with this has to be revolutionised . marketing: the ergonomics , the way it fits in your project manager: hmm . marketing: yeah . user interface: but project manager: user interface: so that 's that for now . industrial designer: cheers . mm , i have n't actually got a display on my screen . project manager: okay . industrial designer: still , i 'll do without that . okay um , now i wan na bring us down to earth again i 'm afraid and talk about the actual practicalities of how the thing needs to work . um oh and this is the methodology i used in preparing for this meeting . um basically i 've been doing a little bit of web-based research , and if i had a design team , i would 've been discussing my ideas with 'em . but the the net result is that i 've come up with a first cut for the working design that i 'd like to discuss with you . so , let 's go back to what the basic function of a remote control is . it 's for sending a message , um typically um via infrared . and the the basic components we 've got to build in for our twelve euros fifty are um an energy source , the user interface and which will um in incorporate um an integrated circuit that actually composes the message um based on what the which buttons the user presses , we turn that into a message , um and then we need a sending mechanism to send it to the receiver . now i would have hoped i think that 's my only slide actually , yeah . i would have have hoped to um do you a pretty powerpoint slide of um my first cut design , but unfortunately the technology defeated me , so if you 'll bear with me i 'll do it on the whiteboard . so we want an energy source which is there . and we 've got to think about what that might be . project manager: hmm-mm . industrial designer: uh we obviously do n't want wires on this thing . uh typically it would be a battery , but i 'm open to suggestions . um and then we have the the user interface . oops . and the main components in there are the the th the chip that actually has the intelligence of the machine that translates button presses into a message , which it then transfers to some sending mechanism , which encodes it and sends the message to the receiver . so those are the basic things that we 've got to get in for our twelve euros fifty . thank you . project manager: hmm . okay . right . but those things as long as we can get those components , the block , that that rectangle for the user interface , is where the user comes in of what what does it look like ? what do the buttons look like ? uh what does it feel like ? that 's where the user interface is really coming into its own . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: the technical end is what 's actually gon na be in there , but also it has to be easy enough to change or repair if something goes wrong . for example the battery energy source or um what if the chip , for whatever reason , breaks down after a certain amount of time , do you just replace it ? um is there any um because it may be in the same area with several other user interfaces , like for d_v_d_s , movies , whatever . um does it have to have a a way of being segregated from the others , in a different frequency or something ? industrial designer: well i may be wrong here , but i 'd been thinking of this device as being a a cheap mass-produced device . we 're trying to sell four million of 'em , project manager: mm . industrial designer: um that 's that 's , you know , that 's almost one in every tenth household or whatever it is . um and i had n't thought of it as being a reparable thing , project manager: okay . industrial designer: you just if it goes wrong you chuck it out , and that 's why i 'm a bit concerned . i like the idea of speech recognition , that 's a great idea , but i 'm not convinced we can put it into this box for the price that we need gon na need to hit . project manager: okay . user interface: whoop . marketing: do we have um ki some idea of how much it would cost to create a device that has these basic elements ? user interface: is n't that your job ? marketing: because then project manager: oh . industrial designer: marketing: no , user interface: oh right . marketing: the chip composer marketing . oh no , the chip composer sender . project manager: mm . what they cost . industrial designer: um , i 'm i 'm i 'm hoping that my personal coach is gon na give me some advice on that , if you 're asking me , marketing: i i do n't believe i know , um . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . industrial designer: but marketing: be because then we would ha ha figure out how much we had to play with in terms of user interface and this look and feel idea . user interface: yeah . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: it does it does seem as if we 're just to do something really simple and mass-produced , the which is pretty much the same as these existing models , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: just maybe a little bit more inspired , marketing: inspired ? user interface: but basically just the same . marketing: mm . user interface: although what what uh suddenly came into my head is , you know how they always take two a_a_ batteries which which is really not very efficient at all . could it be possible to have uh , you know , like a rechargeable internal battery , like , well , like an m_p_ three player does ? with that you could jus or a mobile phone or whatever . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: you could you know , you just plug into a power source for a couple of hours , and then it 's recharged for ages and ages and ages , and you do n't have to worry with replacing a_a_ batteries , marketing: well user interface: which are marketing: that has another element , which is if every time you 're done using the remote you put it on a charger , then you then it has a place . project manager: mm . user interface: you 'd never need uh batteries would y uh yeah . marketing: yeah , but it also has a place , user interface: and it 's not stuck down the back of the sofa . marketing: so exactly . project manager: mm . user interface: but then again i d i do n't know if this is within our price range or not . marketing: that 's a really good idea . industrial designer: well i uh think that 's a very interesting idea , but um i 'm not a very good industrial designer and i do n't know much about what these things cost . i 'll do some research for the next meeting . project manager: okay . user interface: marketing: well it 's better than my idea about solar , probably . project manager: uh yeah . industrial designer: well solar may not be so good when you 're watching tv in the night , marketing: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: but project manager: mm . user interface: well it is just so annoying how marketing: depen project manager: it would have to sor store up the energy marketing: mm . yeah . industrial designer: yeah , i guess . project manager: and then use it . solar can do that . industrial designer: we may be talking quite heavy then . project manager: m yeah , that would be too heavy marketing: yeah . project manager: and it 'd cost too much . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: no , but just a rechargeable internal battery would probably i mean it might cost more to at first to develop and to install , marketing: mm-hmm user interface: but for long-term use it 'll be so much more convenient and economic than fiddling around trying to replace chunky a_a_ batteries and not having any in your kitchen drawer marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and industrial designer: so do you think we might make that a selling point if it was something that we found we could afford to develop ? user interface: you know f marketing: definitely , project manager: mm . marketing: 'cause i 'm thinking in terms of um uh the loss and breakage of um remotes , how much of that is is to do with it not really having a uh a home , a um a nest , a place to live , user interface: mm . project manager: mm . user interface: sort of have its little dock that you could put it in . industrial designer: marketing: exactly . project manager: yeah . marketing: so if you can dock it , um you know , you could s argue that this is project manager: and the dock could look very fancy and that could be your inspiration of having it looking decent . marketing: exactly . user interface: still i do n't know if it 's quite within our price range . project manager: hmm . marketing: mm . 'cause you are talking about another component , like another piece of hardware . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . okay . marketing: mm . project manager: are we agreed as to what our target group is though ? pretty much , so that we 'd be looking for the younger end . marketing: well i i brought up some exactly , but i think you raised some good questions about are there enough of these people out there , or are they making purchasing decisions ? industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: you know , industrial designer: i was wondering that , marketing: these are the industrial designer: because i ag i agree that there there 're people with uh how can i put it , more money than sense and who are liable to buy something new , project manager: i i s usually put more money than brains . marketing: yeah , exactly . industrial designer: but bu but what i was gon na say was , although they they may be buying um , you know , personal music devices and all that , marketing: oh oh oh i 'll make a note of that , kate . good , good comment . industrial designer: are they necessarily buying tv remote controls ? because they probably live in a household that has a tv if they 're at the lower end of the age range , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i do n't know . user interface: yeah . marketing: it might be good to know um uh who , you know , who 's actually buying televisions and are we in a uh uh s region where people have more than one television in a home ? industrial designer: mm . i think we 've got a big hill to climb here , have n't we ? i mean we 've got ta persuade people who 've got a remote control 'cause it came with the telly that they should buy our product instead . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm . yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: or do we s make sure that it goes to the man through the manufacturer ? we sell to the manufacturer as the remote that goes with it . industrial designer: right , good point . yeah , yeah okay , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , good point . user interface: that 's probably more what it is . marketing: yeah . project manager: what would be a more efficient way of doing it ? marketing: yeah , and and some of our d_v_d_ players incidentally have them , because we have the relationship with our own department , but moreover we need to to go for the the manufacturers . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . right . user interface: we 're not gon na get any resolutions by the end of the day , project manager: probably not . user interface: are we ? marketing: mm . project manager: um the other thing that we 're supposed to do is make decision on our functions . our functions , we 've so far decided , i think , that power , channel , volume make it attractive . um it has to have an enter key and of course the number keys . it has to have big user-friendly buttons and sh n definitely we wan na be inspired that the current styles are just plain awful . user interface: yeah . marketing: do we need um let me project manager: is that agreeable to everyone ? marketing: br actually , um industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: the enter key i have a chart here that i did n't include . um project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: do you want the gizmo ? marketing: yeah , which might project manager: throw some light on that . marketing: th yeah , th those are felt like had a lot of charts . project manager: um actually we 're , you know , we are almost a half hour out of the forty minutes , so we have to get close to finishing . marketing: okay , i i my only comment is i think maybe um we could somehow include an enter key in like a power key if power power was enter and pow that was my only just really in terms of streamlining . project manager: ah . mm-hmm . okay . enter , power as a s oh um a sum simultaneous key . marketing: um exactly . again , you know , project manager: is that okay with you ? marketing: thinking of menus or user interface: sorry , project manager: would that industrial designer: h how does that work ? user interface: i was miles away . industrial designer: how so so how does that work , user interface: i was re i was reading the chart to be honest . marketing: um well project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: how do you avoid switching the thing off when you actually wan na press enter ? marketing: if you 're pressing enter , the the thing would already be on , and so maybe um when you press power , initially it turns it on , press power again and use that as an enter um project manager: then you 'd have to have an off te off key . marketing: so you press power after you 've um well i was thinking maybe you to turn it off you 'd have to press power twice in succession , industrial designer: okay , yep , mm-hmm . project manager: mm . marketing: and maybe power follows something like a channel up channel down power , and then that would make that choice . industrial designer: it 's not getting a bit complicated ? could granny do this , marketing: well industrial designer: or are we just not aiming at granny ? marketing: or y yeah . or something that has a a turning dial , where at the far end is on or off . user interface: who 's got an ipod then ? industrial designer: marketing: yeah , project manager: mm . okay . marketing: i do n't um i wish . anyway , uh that was the only comment about um some of the the decisions people have made , what 's most important . project manager: mm . marketing: it 's definitely channel , volume , power . user interface: yeah , things like screen settings and audio settings , i would generally do them on the actual television itself , marketing: exactly . user interface: like here you have a you know , a little flap th with a little control panel on the actual box itself . marketing: exactly . user interface: i i would n't know how to do it using a remote control , marketing: yeah . user interface: so um i would say that they are definitely less relevant . project manager: okay . so marketing: okay , well . thanks for looking at that . project manager: i guess easy to use is the other thing that we want 'em to be able to do . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: as you said , you know , do n't make it too hard for the granny . marketing: we do n't wan na outsmart project manager: i just joined that set last week . marketing: hmm . project manager: um first grandchild arrived . marketing: congratulations . industrial designer: mm . user interface: industrial designer: uh . project manager: um so are we agreed then of those things ? and let 's go back to agenda marketing: d project manager: and hook me up . mm . this oughta be fun . it probably wo n't go the first time , it 'll probably be like a g mess . come on . uh it lost it off here . uh marketing: oh you 're fine . it 's fine . project manager: no , it was up there , but i could n't see it down here . mm . this time it should be both . there we go . industrial designer: how do you do that ? how do you make it do both ? project manager: um you have to keep doing the financi the the f_n_ and f_ eight to five minutes to finish , industrial designer: ah okay , it toggles through , project manager: thank you a lot for telling me . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um right , marketing: i think you have to cycle through . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: we 're ready to close . um will be completed q questionnaire , um then we 'll have some time for individual work to continue our research um and i 'll put some minutes of this meeting together . um your individual assignments are for um kate to do the components , for you , steph , to do the user interface and for you the trend-watching . um and each of us will get help from our coach . are we agreed to get ourselves together and then have lunch ? user interface: yes . project manager: okay . industrial designer: sounds good . project manager: then that 's the end of this meeting . and i hope that 's good enough for her to tell her that 's the end . okay ? industrial designer: okay . user interface: we did n't come to any sort of decision on the functions though . project manager: well i think i went over the functions and wrote them down and marked them . user interface: alright , well that 's fine then . project manager: um that 's what i went over and nobody was objecting to them . marketing: okay . um and you 'd mentioned i i was just gon na say , could you reiterate the new project requirements , project manager: okay . marketing: because it they were it has to be for a tv , just to keep myself project manager: um the teletext is outdated , industrial designer: so we 're still in meeting , are n't we ? project manager: the internet is important , marketing: yeah , i think i 've project manager: it 's only to be for a tv and it must include the corporate image , colour and slogan um marketing: okay . project manager: which i think is more in the user uh range , with steph . user interface: mm . sorry , what what actually are these is that the yellow and black ? project manager: it does n't tell me . marketing: mm . user interface: from their i 'll just use it from their website . project manager: mm-hmm . okay ? user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . marketing: right . thank you .

user interface argued that they should discard the existing standard , and only keep the basic and user-friendly functions like channel selection , volume and enter key . then they talked about the conflicts between technology and price . the application of some high technology such as speech recognition and solar energy would add to the cost . therefore , to ensure the low price of the remote control , they had to think it over when deciding whether to use speech recognition . it was also difficult for the group to select between solar energy and charger . although solar energy was fancy and environmentally friendly , the cost was much higher than using a charger . finally , marketing suggested making the remote control a dock to place it .

why did industrial designer reject the idea of using solar energy as the source of power ? </s> project manager: uh it fell off . one , two , three , four , yeah , we 're ready . okay . welcome to this second meeting . um it 's now quarter after twelve and we 're given forty minutes um for this meeting . this is a meeting on functional design . um and i wan na welcome you all and thank you all for doing some research in between . um i did took the minutes from the first meeting and i 'll show them to you in a moment . um i know each of you have a presentation and um in thinking about the forty minutes , i thought it would take only like three minutes for the previous minutes , um each of you having about seven minutes or maybe a little more , maybe a little less for your pre presentations and a little discussion , because there 's i happen to have been told there were some new project requirements and we have to make some uh decision on what functions it will have . okay ? is this ap everybody agree with this ? industrial designer: oops . user interface: yes . marketing: yes . project manager: okay . um and after the meeting there 'll be things to be done and as you can see it says we get to get lunch , um and then some more individual work and then putting minutes away and individual actions . um but uh now for the minutes of the first meeting . and go to that one . um as you can see it was this earlier today . um kate , steph , sarah and myself in our four capacities were present . i opened the meeting , the product was developed uh and reviewed , and we talked about the financial end of it . um and it had some implications , um the four million sales target and new ideas of not too many buttons , bright colours and some of the influence of the japanese . and we closed early so you could then proceed with your research and getting your reports together for tod this meeting anybody have any questions on those minutes ? are they complete , did they discuss everything that we covered last time ? 'kay . industrial designer: uh i think so , project manager: did i miss something ? industrial designer: we we we talked about the the individual roles that we each had as well . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . i 'm afraid i incorporated that when i said who was present , but yes , we did , industrial designer: okay . project manager: and we did a little bit of uh team building of uh of making the pictures , marketing: okay , i accept the minutes . project manager: but i did n't think those were appropriate to the minutes necessarily . so um as a group i think we 've are they 're accepting the minutes . and uh okay . marketing: is that what we 're supposed to say ? project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , i do . project manager: good . um , then we 'll move to the three presentations . okay ? marketing: okay . project manager: okay . mm we need to move this . who wants to go f first ? that 's as far as it goes . user interface: uh not really meant to touch those microphones . oh it does n't have any on , does it ? that 's fine . marketing: excellent , thank you . industrial designer: oy , big loop under the table . project manager: she said we did n't need to screw it in . marketing: okay . okay , that looks good . project manager: it 's doing its thing . there we are . marketing: alright . thank you very much . um . one of the the biggest issues i found about um from last meeting was the fact that we need to sell four million of these um remote controls and i think that this is an opportunity to really take real reaction in the direction of of similar of handheld tools that have been used and are used by many of us and to kind of bring the remote control into the si same realm as an accessible um useful electronic device , as opposed to something that is lost in the couch and what have you . so um my main goal here is to re-envision the remote control in in this context and to think about menu functionality and current technology and the fact that it could be interactive with other tools . um some of the research uh in the market has shown that people really are not happy with remote controls as they are now , and um that means we do need to make some decisions about what what keys or or buttons on the on the remote control to perhaps keep and and what ones to discard . and if we devote some energy into this , i think the um recent productions of real reaction , the i go everywhere power and the high definition d_v_d_ players although it makes immediate sense to have our remote control interact with these , i think we can also use this as a platform to make it interact with other tools . and um in fact i think the high definition d_v_d_ players and all of this will come along in the uh will only benefit from the positive feedback from our well designed tool . so again , most uh users really dislike the current look and feel of remote controls . um fifty percent i think of all these uh numbers the most important is fifty percent of user say they only use ten percent of the buttons . and eighty percent of users , and if we think about this there are a lot of uh television , d_v_d_ , stereo remote control users out there , eighty percent would spend more money on a remote control that looks fancy . industrial designer: could can i ask where these figures come from , is this market research we 've marketing: um it was market research and there were a hundred people in the room , so eighty out of a hundred said they would spend more money . project manager: now in between , as the project manager , they sent me an email from the powers that be industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: um that teletext is outdated um marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and the internet is coming in as important , but that they want this remote control to only be for tv um with incorporating the corporate image , colour and slogan . marketing: mm-hmm . well i think we can i i think we can really focus on this remote and and again bring the real reaction um brand in in and and get some positive marketing for our other tools , even if we directly do n't um advertise for the i go everywhere line . project manager: mm . marketing: so an interesting um element was the would you pay more for speech recognition question . so these market research uh uh questionnaires looked into your your uh concern about technology project manager: hmm . industrial designer: marketing: and s specifically wanted to find out information about speech recognition . project manager: okay . marketing: now the early adopters , those of us who grew up with technology and uh luck lucky for us have the uh cash to to pay for it , the young age group without the mortgages and responsibilities , ninety one percent of them would pay more for speech recognition in a remote control . very interesting , i i leave this up to the group to decide if we wan na use this uh if and you know , the the designers , project manager: mm . marketing: but ninety one percent , fifteen to twenty five project manager: is that a large enough target market to target it ? marketing: well , i i i think especially in terms of growth , i think this would be a very smart group to target . i mean s three quarters of the next age group , twenty five to thirty five are interested , and uh with the technologies improving , if we can get these uh project manager: in real numbers , does the ninety one percent and the seventy six percent translate to ex in excess of the four million ? marketing: yeah . to um yes . project manager: or eight million . marketing: yes . but would you pay more and does it work and is it approachable and and did i know that it was it was an project manager: hmm . marketing: that 's a that 's a very good question . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um marketing: i do n't know if speech recognition should be um should be included , project manager: mm . marketing: but i think it 's an interesting i think that maybe shows more about uh being open to technology . project manager: mm . user interface: uh it definitely needs uh a lot more research marketing: shall i go back ? user interface: on like how much more it would be and any , you know , existing examples , marketing: yeah , yeah . user interface: and what reactions to them have been , and that sort of thing . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: how d i 'm wondering how how ou how our target price compares with the the typical price of these things . i expect an industrial designer should know that , but if we 're aiming to to build this thing for twelve euros fifty , um is that a lot or a little ? marketing: exactly . i mean i i i uh did not receive any information on that , but i think the competition , sussing out what other people are doing and what 's in the pipeline is very very important , because um there is a question about do you want an lcd screen and and that was n't responded to , but uh some of the larger remotes do have screens where you can navigate , you know , so it turns into something uh perhaps you all have seen uh the osbournes where ozzy osbourne is is attempting to manage his super entertainment system with something that looks like a uh a small tray . industrial designer: sh surely he 's in the wrong age group . marketing: you know , project manager: marketing: it 's i a and i think , you know industrial designer: he must be w one of a s small population . marketing: no , no , project manager: mm . marketing: you kate , you 're exactly right there . but i think the key is to get the early adopters , people who are familiar with technology and and uh they 'll be project manager: but we 're not looking at whether they 're early adopters on that screen , marketing: uh , mm . project manager: that 's looking at age groups . marketing: exactly . i yes , and i 'm making and i 'm making the the uh uh leap that people who are familiar younger people are l are more familiar with technology than than older people . or comfortable , project manager: leap . hmm . mm . marketing: you know , um so project manager: okay , you had the other power channel . marketing: i think the most important thing is an attractive streamlined remote control and to be extraordinarily reductionist , power , channel , volume and everything else is is uh up to the designers . and this is this is also supported by the market research . project manager: okay . marketing: thank you . that 's my contribution . project manager: alright . and we 'll turn to the next presentation . i think she said we do n't need to screw it in , just stick it in . and then press , what ? f f_n_ and f_ eight . next to the control button on the bottom , and then f_ eight at the top . user interface: yeah , press them . project manager: and then w be patient . user interface: yeah , here we go . project manager: tada . industrial designer: and if you want it to go into slide show mode , it 's that little button there . user interface: can i not just uh do each one in order ? industrial designer: i you can if you like , it it that that just sets it up to do a p a p project manager: there we are . yay . user interface: that ? industrial designer: no that one , that one there . user interface: that ? industrial designer: left , left a bit , left a bit , that one , yep . user interface: that ? right , technical functions design . uh well i think first off , basically i do agree with what sarah has defined as as uh your personal preferences , yeah . i think we need uh a more streamlined volume with no extraneous functions . so my method was to look at the existing remotes and what functions they have . and what we all need to discuss is whether we want these functions uh pretty much the same as what existing remotes have . if we can build on this with the speech recognition , that 's not something i 'd thought about at all , but it 's also something we can discuss . project manager: okay . user interface: um and and i presume we can miss out the functions really to to a video or d_v_d_ remote control , if this is only gon na be a , you know , satellite , cable , tv remote control . project manager: tv only . user interface: so these are two models of existing remote controls . uh the one on the left seems to be a fairly uh standard universal remote control . project manager: ugh . user interface: it has fast-forward , stop , play , all relating to movies . it also has seems to have channel up and channel down , which is which is more what you 'd expect from a , you know , like a sky or cable remote control project manager: hmm . user interface: where you 've got hundreds of channels instead of a merely terrestrial one . uh but i think we should be looking more along the lines of the one on the right , which has it also has play , stop and pause and everything , i do n't think we need them at all . i think we just need channel selection , volume up , volume down and i think an an enter function where you can access it 's not like teletext , but along the same lines , access things on the screen . uh not related to the internet one that you mentioned , because that 'd be far outside our budget and what we want this to do . project manager: mm . and exceed the requirements they 're expecting of us . user interface: so it really exceed the requirements , 'cause the requirements really are just want to be able to change channels and functions , which is more a text on the screen thing than uh than actual buttons project manager: okay . user interface: o i was thinking something some smooth , sleek , little remote control with big user-friendly buttons and uh a menu that you can access . project manager: alright . user interface: uh but then i do think we need to discuss the speech um recognition possibility . project manager: okay . any uh thing else you wan na add ? user interface: no . project manager: okay . user interface: but we could go back to the pictures of the uh , what 're they called ? the pictures of the remote controls and possibly discuss what we think about them , marketing: or if user interface: but maybe should hear what kate has to say first . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . let 's hear what kate has to say . user interface: okay then . marketing: maybe afterwards we could do a uh whiteboard with that your the one on the right as a as a basis . project manager: hmm . marketing: whiteboard session . project manager: i think the white that one on the right is , as well as less cluttered , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: definitely less cluttered and i mean but still it 's project manager: it 's there user interface: sorry project manager: but it 's user interface: i was just i 'll just uh resume something else i was gon na say . marketing: user interface: the the style of these is terrible . project manager: yeah . user interface: i i i really think we need to uh not only possibly even materials , like the type of plastic used , but everything including size and shape of buttons , positioning of buttons , the actual shape of the hand-held device , colours , just every e yeah , everything to do with this has to be revolutionised . marketing: the ergonomics , the way it fits in your project manager: hmm . marketing: yeah . user interface: but project manager: user interface: so that 's that for now . industrial designer: cheers . mm , i have n't actually got a display on my screen . project manager: okay . industrial designer: still , i 'll do without that . okay um , now i wan na bring us down to earth again i 'm afraid and talk about the actual practicalities of how the thing needs to work . um oh and this is the methodology i used in preparing for this meeting . um basically i 've been doing a little bit of web-based research , and if i had a design team , i would 've been discussing my ideas with 'em . but the the net result is that i 've come up with a first cut for the working design that i 'd like to discuss with you . so , let 's go back to what the basic function of a remote control is . it 's for sending a message , um typically um via infrared . and the the basic components we 've got to build in for our twelve euros fifty are um an energy source , the user interface and which will um in incorporate um an integrated circuit that actually composes the message um based on what the which buttons the user presses , we turn that into a message , um and then we need a sending mechanism to send it to the receiver . now i would have hoped i think that 's my only slide actually , yeah . i would have have hoped to um do you a pretty powerpoint slide of um my first cut design , but unfortunately the technology defeated me , so if you 'll bear with me i 'll do it on the whiteboard . so we want an energy source which is there . and we 've got to think about what that might be . project manager: hmm-mm . industrial designer: uh we obviously do n't want wires on this thing . uh typically it would be a battery , but i 'm open to suggestions . um and then we have the the user interface . oops . and the main components in there are the the th the chip that actually has the intelligence of the machine that translates button presses into a message , which it then transfers to some sending mechanism , which encodes it and sends the message to the receiver . so those are the basic things that we 've got to get in for our twelve euros fifty . thank you . project manager: hmm . okay . right . but those things as long as we can get those components , the block , that that rectangle for the user interface , is where the user comes in of what what does it look like ? what do the buttons look like ? uh what does it feel like ? that 's where the user interface is really coming into its own . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: the technical end is what 's actually gon na be in there , but also it has to be easy enough to change or repair if something goes wrong . for example the battery energy source or um what if the chip , for whatever reason , breaks down after a certain amount of time , do you just replace it ? um is there any um because it may be in the same area with several other user interfaces , like for d_v_d_s , movies , whatever . um does it have to have a a way of being segregated from the others , in a different frequency or something ? industrial designer: well i may be wrong here , but i 'd been thinking of this device as being a a cheap mass-produced device . we 're trying to sell four million of 'em , project manager: mm . industrial designer: um that 's that 's , you know , that 's almost one in every tenth household or whatever it is . um and i had n't thought of it as being a reparable thing , project manager: okay . industrial designer: you just if it goes wrong you chuck it out , and that 's why i 'm a bit concerned . i like the idea of speech recognition , that 's a great idea , but i 'm not convinced we can put it into this box for the price that we need gon na need to hit . project manager: okay . user interface: whoop . marketing: do we have um ki some idea of how much it would cost to create a device that has these basic elements ? user interface: is n't that your job ? marketing: because then project manager: oh . industrial designer: marketing: no , user interface: oh right . marketing: the chip composer marketing . oh no , the chip composer sender . project manager: mm . what they cost . industrial designer: um , i 'm i 'm i 'm hoping that my personal coach is gon na give me some advice on that , if you 're asking me , marketing: i i do n't believe i know , um . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . industrial designer: but marketing: be because then we would ha ha figure out how much we had to play with in terms of user interface and this look and feel idea . user interface: yeah . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: it does it does seem as if we 're just to do something really simple and mass-produced , the which is pretty much the same as these existing models , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: just maybe a little bit more inspired , marketing: inspired ? user interface: but basically just the same . marketing: mm . user interface: although what what uh suddenly came into my head is , you know how they always take two a_a_ batteries which which is really not very efficient at all . could it be possible to have uh , you know , like a rechargeable internal battery , like , well , like an m_p_ three player does ? with that you could jus or a mobile phone or whatever . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: you could you know , you just plug into a power source for a couple of hours , and then it 's recharged for ages and ages and ages , and you do n't have to worry with replacing a_a_ batteries , marketing: well user interface: which are marketing: that has another element , which is if every time you 're done using the remote you put it on a charger , then you then it has a place . project manager: mm . user interface: you 'd never need uh batteries would y uh yeah . marketing: yeah , but it also has a place , user interface: and it 's not stuck down the back of the sofa . marketing: so exactly . project manager: mm . user interface: but then again i d i do n't know if this is within our price range or not . marketing: that 's a really good idea . industrial designer: well i uh think that 's a very interesting idea , but um i 'm not a very good industrial designer and i do n't know much about what these things cost . i 'll do some research for the next meeting . project manager: okay . user interface: marketing: well it 's better than my idea about solar , probably . project manager: uh yeah . industrial designer: well solar may not be so good when you 're watching tv in the night , marketing: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: but project manager: mm . user interface: well it is just so annoying how marketing: depen project manager: it would have to sor store up the energy marketing: mm . yeah . industrial designer: yeah , i guess . project manager: and then use it . solar can do that . industrial designer: we may be talking quite heavy then . project manager: m yeah , that would be too heavy marketing: yeah . project manager: and it 'd cost too much . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: no , but just a rechargeable internal battery would probably i mean it might cost more to at first to develop and to install , marketing: mm-hmm user interface: but for long-term use it 'll be so much more convenient and economic than fiddling around trying to replace chunky a_a_ batteries and not having any in your kitchen drawer marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and industrial designer: so do you think we might make that a selling point if it was something that we found we could afford to develop ? user interface: you know f marketing: definitely , project manager: mm . marketing: 'cause i 'm thinking in terms of um uh the loss and breakage of um remotes , how much of that is is to do with it not really having a uh a home , a um a nest , a place to live , user interface: mm . project manager: mm . user interface: sort of have its little dock that you could put it in . industrial designer: marketing: exactly . project manager: yeah . marketing: so if you can dock it , um you know , you could s argue that this is project manager: and the dock could look very fancy and that could be your inspiration of having it looking decent . marketing: exactly . user interface: still i do n't know if it 's quite within our price range . project manager: hmm . marketing: mm . 'cause you are talking about another component , like another piece of hardware . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . okay . marketing: mm . project manager: are we agreed as to what our target group is though ? pretty much , so that we 'd be looking for the younger end . marketing: well i i brought up some exactly , but i think you raised some good questions about are there enough of these people out there , or are they making purchasing decisions ? industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: you know , industrial designer: i was wondering that , marketing: these are the industrial designer: because i ag i agree that there there 're people with uh how can i put it , more money than sense and who are liable to buy something new , project manager: i i s usually put more money than brains . marketing: yeah , exactly . industrial designer: but bu but what i was gon na say was , although they they may be buying um , you know , personal music devices and all that , marketing: oh oh oh i 'll make a note of that , kate . good , good comment . industrial designer: are they necessarily buying tv remote controls ? because they probably live in a household that has a tv if they 're at the lower end of the age range , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i do n't know . user interface: yeah . marketing: it might be good to know um uh who , you know , who 's actually buying televisions and are we in a uh uh s region where people have more than one television in a home ? industrial designer: mm . i think we 've got a big hill to climb here , have n't we ? i mean we 've got ta persuade people who 've got a remote control 'cause it came with the telly that they should buy our product instead . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm . yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: or do we s make sure that it goes to the man through the manufacturer ? we sell to the manufacturer as the remote that goes with it . industrial designer: right , good point . yeah , yeah okay , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , good point . user interface: that 's probably more what it is . marketing: yeah . project manager: what would be a more efficient way of doing it ? marketing: yeah , and and some of our d_v_d_ players incidentally have them , because we have the relationship with our own department , but moreover we need to to go for the the manufacturers . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . right . user interface: we 're not gon na get any resolutions by the end of the day , project manager: probably not . user interface: are we ? marketing: mm . project manager: um the other thing that we 're supposed to do is make decision on our functions . our functions , we 've so far decided , i think , that power , channel , volume make it attractive . um it has to have an enter key and of course the number keys . it has to have big user-friendly buttons and sh n definitely we wan na be inspired that the current styles are just plain awful . user interface: yeah . marketing: do we need um let me project manager: is that agreeable to everyone ? marketing: br actually , um industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: the enter key i have a chart here that i did n't include . um project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: do you want the gizmo ? marketing: yeah , which might project manager: throw some light on that . marketing: th yeah , th those are felt like had a lot of charts . project manager: um actually we 're , you know , we are almost a half hour out of the forty minutes , so we have to get close to finishing . marketing: okay , i i my only comment is i think maybe um we could somehow include an enter key in like a power key if power power was enter and pow that was my only just really in terms of streamlining . project manager: ah . mm-hmm . okay . enter , power as a s oh um a sum simultaneous key . marketing: um exactly . again , you know , project manager: is that okay with you ? marketing: thinking of menus or user interface: sorry , project manager: would that industrial designer: h how does that work ? user interface: i was miles away . industrial designer: how so so how does that work , user interface: i was re i was reading the chart to be honest . marketing: um well project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: how do you avoid switching the thing off when you actually wan na press enter ? marketing: if you 're pressing enter , the the thing would already be on , and so maybe um when you press power , initially it turns it on , press power again and use that as an enter um project manager: then you 'd have to have an off te off key . marketing: so you press power after you 've um well i was thinking maybe you to turn it off you 'd have to press power twice in succession , industrial designer: okay , yep , mm-hmm . project manager: mm . marketing: and maybe power follows something like a channel up channel down power , and then that would make that choice . industrial designer: it 's not getting a bit complicated ? could granny do this , marketing: well industrial designer: or are we just not aiming at granny ? marketing: or y yeah . or something that has a a turning dial , where at the far end is on or off . user interface: who 's got an ipod then ? industrial designer: marketing: yeah , project manager: mm . okay . marketing: i do n't um i wish . anyway , uh that was the only comment about um some of the the decisions people have made , what 's most important . project manager: mm . marketing: it 's definitely channel , volume , power . user interface: yeah , things like screen settings and audio settings , i would generally do them on the actual television itself , marketing: exactly . user interface: like here you have a you know , a little flap th with a little control panel on the actual box itself . marketing: exactly . user interface: i i would n't know how to do it using a remote control , marketing: yeah . user interface: so um i would say that they are definitely less relevant . project manager: okay . so marketing: okay , well . thanks for looking at that . project manager: i guess easy to use is the other thing that we want 'em to be able to do . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: as you said , you know , do n't make it too hard for the granny . marketing: we do n't wan na outsmart project manager: i just joined that set last week . marketing: hmm . project manager: um first grandchild arrived . marketing: congratulations . industrial designer: mm . user interface: industrial designer: uh . project manager: um so are we agreed then of those things ? and let 's go back to agenda marketing: d project manager: and hook me up . mm . this oughta be fun . it probably wo n't go the first time , it 'll probably be like a g mess . come on . uh it lost it off here . uh marketing: oh you 're fine . it 's fine . project manager: no , it was up there , but i could n't see it down here . mm . this time it should be both . there we go . industrial designer: how do you do that ? how do you make it do both ? project manager: um you have to keep doing the financi the the f_n_ and f_ eight to five minutes to finish , industrial designer: ah okay , it toggles through , project manager: thank you a lot for telling me . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um right , marketing: i think you have to cycle through . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: we 're ready to close . um will be completed q questionnaire , um then we 'll have some time for individual work to continue our research um and i 'll put some minutes of this meeting together . um your individual assignments are for um kate to do the components , for you , steph , to do the user interface and for you the trend-watching . um and each of us will get help from our coach . are we agreed to get ourselves together and then have lunch ? user interface: yes . project manager: okay . industrial designer: sounds good . project manager: then that 's the end of this meeting . and i hope that 's good enough for her to tell her that 's the end . okay ? industrial designer: okay . user interface: we did n't come to any sort of decision on the functions though . project manager: well i think i went over the functions and wrote them down and marked them . user interface: alright , well that 's fine then . project manager: um that 's what i went over and nobody was objecting to them . marketing: okay . um and you 'd mentioned i i was just gon na say , could you reiterate the new project requirements , project manager: okay . marketing: because it they were it has to be for a tv , just to keep myself project manager: um the teletext is outdated , industrial designer: so we 're still in meeting , are n't we ? project manager: the internet is important , marketing: yeah , i think i 've project manager: it 's only to be for a tv and it must include the corporate image , colour and slogan um marketing: okay . project manager: which i think is more in the user uh range , with steph . user interface: mm . sorry , what what actually are these is that the yellow and black ? project manager: it does n't tell me . marketing: mm . user interface: from their i 'll just use it from their website . project manager: mm-hmm . okay ? user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . marketing: right . thank you .

solar energy was not so convenient for users when using remote control at night . because it would be hard for it to store up energy . in addition , industrial designer had questions about the cost of adding solar energy to the remote control .

what did industrial designer think about the technology of speech recognition when discussing the functions and source of the power of the remote control ? </s> project manager: uh it fell off . one , two , three , four , yeah , we 're ready . okay . welcome to this second meeting . um it 's now quarter after twelve and we 're given forty minutes um for this meeting . this is a meeting on functional design . um and i wan na welcome you all and thank you all for doing some research in between . um i did took the minutes from the first meeting and i 'll show them to you in a moment . um i know each of you have a presentation and um in thinking about the forty minutes , i thought it would take only like three minutes for the previous minutes , um each of you having about seven minutes or maybe a little more , maybe a little less for your pre presentations and a little discussion , because there 's i happen to have been told there were some new project requirements and we have to make some uh decision on what functions it will have . okay ? is this ap everybody agree with this ? industrial designer: oops . user interface: yes . marketing: yes . project manager: okay . um and after the meeting there 'll be things to be done and as you can see it says we get to get lunch , um and then some more individual work and then putting minutes away and individual actions . um but uh now for the minutes of the first meeting . and go to that one . um as you can see it was this earlier today . um kate , steph , sarah and myself in our four capacities were present . i opened the meeting , the product was developed uh and reviewed , and we talked about the financial end of it . um and it had some implications , um the four million sales target and new ideas of not too many buttons , bright colours and some of the influence of the japanese . and we closed early so you could then proceed with your research and getting your reports together for tod this meeting anybody have any questions on those minutes ? are they complete , did they discuss everything that we covered last time ? 'kay . industrial designer: uh i think so , project manager: did i miss something ? industrial designer: we we we talked about the the individual roles that we each had as well . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . i 'm afraid i incorporated that when i said who was present , but yes , we did , industrial designer: okay . project manager: and we did a little bit of uh team building of uh of making the pictures , marketing: okay , i accept the minutes . project manager: but i did n't think those were appropriate to the minutes necessarily . so um as a group i think we 've are they 're accepting the minutes . and uh okay . marketing: is that what we 're supposed to say ? project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , i do . project manager: good . um , then we 'll move to the three presentations . okay ? marketing: okay . project manager: okay . mm we need to move this . who wants to go f first ? that 's as far as it goes . user interface: uh not really meant to touch those microphones . oh it does n't have any on , does it ? that 's fine . marketing: excellent , thank you . industrial designer: oy , big loop under the table . project manager: she said we did n't need to screw it in . marketing: okay . okay , that looks good . project manager: it 's doing its thing . there we are . marketing: alright . thank you very much . um . one of the the biggest issues i found about um from last meeting was the fact that we need to sell four million of these um remote controls and i think that this is an opportunity to really take real reaction in the direction of of similar of handheld tools that have been used and are used by many of us and to kind of bring the remote control into the si same realm as an accessible um useful electronic device , as opposed to something that is lost in the couch and what have you . so um my main goal here is to re-envision the remote control in in this context and to think about menu functionality and current technology and the fact that it could be interactive with other tools . um some of the research uh in the market has shown that people really are not happy with remote controls as they are now , and um that means we do need to make some decisions about what what keys or or buttons on the on the remote control to perhaps keep and and what ones to discard . and if we devote some energy into this , i think the um recent productions of real reaction , the i go everywhere power and the high definition d_v_d_ players although it makes immediate sense to have our remote control interact with these , i think we can also use this as a platform to make it interact with other tools . and um in fact i think the high definition d_v_d_ players and all of this will come along in the uh will only benefit from the positive feedback from our well designed tool . so again , most uh users really dislike the current look and feel of remote controls . um fifty percent i think of all these uh numbers the most important is fifty percent of user say they only use ten percent of the buttons . and eighty percent of users , and if we think about this there are a lot of uh television , d_v_d_ , stereo remote control users out there , eighty percent would spend more money on a remote control that looks fancy . industrial designer: could can i ask where these figures come from , is this market research we 've marketing: um it was market research and there were a hundred people in the room , so eighty out of a hundred said they would spend more money . project manager: now in between , as the project manager , they sent me an email from the powers that be industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: um that teletext is outdated um marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and the internet is coming in as important , but that they want this remote control to only be for tv um with incorporating the corporate image , colour and slogan . marketing: mm-hmm . well i think we can i i think we can really focus on this remote and and again bring the real reaction um brand in in and and get some positive marketing for our other tools , even if we directly do n't um advertise for the i go everywhere line . project manager: mm . marketing: so an interesting um element was the would you pay more for speech recognition question . so these market research uh uh questionnaires looked into your your uh concern about technology project manager: hmm . industrial designer: marketing: and s specifically wanted to find out information about speech recognition . project manager: okay . marketing: now the early adopters , those of us who grew up with technology and uh luck lucky for us have the uh cash to to pay for it , the young age group without the mortgages and responsibilities , ninety one percent of them would pay more for speech recognition in a remote control . very interesting , i i leave this up to the group to decide if we wan na use this uh if and you know , the the designers , project manager: mm . marketing: but ninety one percent , fifteen to twenty five project manager: is that a large enough target market to target it ? marketing: well , i i i think especially in terms of growth , i think this would be a very smart group to target . i mean s three quarters of the next age group , twenty five to thirty five are interested , and uh with the technologies improving , if we can get these uh project manager: in real numbers , does the ninety one percent and the seventy six percent translate to ex in excess of the four million ? marketing: yeah . to um yes . project manager: or eight million . marketing: yes . but would you pay more and does it work and is it approachable and and did i know that it was it was an project manager: hmm . marketing: that 's a that 's a very good question . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um marketing: i do n't know if speech recognition should be um should be included , project manager: mm . marketing: but i think it 's an interesting i think that maybe shows more about uh being open to technology . project manager: mm . user interface: uh it definitely needs uh a lot more research marketing: shall i go back ? user interface: on like how much more it would be and any , you know , existing examples , marketing: yeah , yeah . user interface: and what reactions to them have been , and that sort of thing . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: how d i 'm wondering how how ou how our target price compares with the the typical price of these things . i expect an industrial designer should know that , but if we 're aiming to to build this thing for twelve euros fifty , um is that a lot or a little ? marketing: exactly . i mean i i i uh did not receive any information on that , but i think the competition , sussing out what other people are doing and what 's in the pipeline is very very important , because um there is a question about do you want an lcd screen and and that was n't responded to , but uh some of the larger remotes do have screens where you can navigate , you know , so it turns into something uh perhaps you all have seen uh the osbournes where ozzy osbourne is is attempting to manage his super entertainment system with something that looks like a uh a small tray . industrial designer: sh surely he 's in the wrong age group . marketing: you know , project manager: marketing: it 's i a and i think , you know industrial designer: he must be w one of a s small population . marketing: no , no , project manager: mm . marketing: you kate , you 're exactly right there . but i think the key is to get the early adopters , people who are familiar with technology and and uh they 'll be project manager: but we 're not looking at whether they 're early adopters on that screen , marketing: uh , mm . project manager: that 's looking at age groups . marketing: exactly . i yes , and i 'm making and i 'm making the the uh uh leap that people who are familiar younger people are l are more familiar with technology than than older people . or comfortable , project manager: leap . hmm . mm . marketing: you know , um so project manager: okay , you had the other power channel . marketing: i think the most important thing is an attractive streamlined remote control and to be extraordinarily reductionist , power , channel , volume and everything else is is uh up to the designers . and this is this is also supported by the market research . project manager: okay . marketing: thank you . that 's my contribution . project manager: alright . and we 'll turn to the next presentation . i think she said we do n't need to screw it in , just stick it in . and then press , what ? f f_n_ and f_ eight . next to the control button on the bottom , and then f_ eight at the top . user interface: yeah , press them . project manager: and then w be patient . user interface: yeah , here we go . project manager: tada . industrial designer: and if you want it to go into slide show mode , it 's that little button there . user interface: can i not just uh do each one in order ? industrial designer: i you can if you like , it it that that just sets it up to do a p a p project manager: there we are . yay . user interface: that ? industrial designer: no that one , that one there . user interface: that ? industrial designer: left , left a bit , left a bit , that one , yep . user interface: that ? right , technical functions design . uh well i think first off , basically i do agree with what sarah has defined as as uh your personal preferences , yeah . i think we need uh a more streamlined volume with no extraneous functions . so my method was to look at the existing remotes and what functions they have . and what we all need to discuss is whether we want these functions uh pretty much the same as what existing remotes have . if we can build on this with the speech recognition , that 's not something i 'd thought about at all , but it 's also something we can discuss . project manager: okay . user interface: um and and i presume we can miss out the functions really to to a video or d_v_d_ remote control , if this is only gon na be a , you know , satellite , cable , tv remote control . project manager: tv only . user interface: so these are two models of existing remote controls . uh the one on the left seems to be a fairly uh standard universal remote control . project manager: ugh . user interface: it has fast-forward , stop , play , all relating to movies . it also has seems to have channel up and channel down , which is which is more what you 'd expect from a , you know , like a sky or cable remote control project manager: hmm . user interface: where you 've got hundreds of channels instead of a merely terrestrial one . uh but i think we should be looking more along the lines of the one on the right , which has it also has play , stop and pause and everything , i do n't think we need them at all . i think we just need channel selection , volume up , volume down and i think an an enter function where you can access it 's not like teletext , but along the same lines , access things on the screen . uh not related to the internet one that you mentioned , because that 'd be far outside our budget and what we want this to do . project manager: mm . and exceed the requirements they 're expecting of us . user interface: so it really exceed the requirements , 'cause the requirements really are just want to be able to change channels and functions , which is more a text on the screen thing than uh than actual buttons project manager: okay . user interface: o i was thinking something some smooth , sleek , little remote control with big user-friendly buttons and uh a menu that you can access . project manager: alright . user interface: uh but then i do think we need to discuss the speech um recognition possibility . project manager: okay . any uh thing else you wan na add ? user interface: no . project manager: okay . user interface: but we could go back to the pictures of the uh , what 're they called ? the pictures of the remote controls and possibly discuss what we think about them , marketing: or if user interface: but maybe should hear what kate has to say first . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . let 's hear what kate has to say . user interface: okay then . marketing: maybe afterwards we could do a uh whiteboard with that your the one on the right as a as a basis . project manager: hmm . marketing: whiteboard session . project manager: i think the white that one on the right is , as well as less cluttered , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: definitely less cluttered and i mean but still it 's project manager: it 's there user interface: sorry project manager: but it 's user interface: i was just i 'll just uh resume something else i was gon na say . marketing: user interface: the the style of these is terrible . project manager: yeah . user interface: i i i really think we need to uh not only possibly even materials , like the type of plastic used , but everything including size and shape of buttons , positioning of buttons , the actual shape of the hand-held device , colours , just every e yeah , everything to do with this has to be revolutionised . marketing: the ergonomics , the way it fits in your project manager: hmm . marketing: yeah . user interface: but project manager: user interface: so that 's that for now . industrial designer: cheers . mm , i have n't actually got a display on my screen . project manager: okay . industrial designer: still , i 'll do without that . okay um , now i wan na bring us down to earth again i 'm afraid and talk about the actual practicalities of how the thing needs to work . um oh and this is the methodology i used in preparing for this meeting . um basically i 've been doing a little bit of web-based research , and if i had a design team , i would 've been discussing my ideas with 'em . but the the net result is that i 've come up with a first cut for the working design that i 'd like to discuss with you . so , let 's go back to what the basic function of a remote control is . it 's for sending a message , um typically um via infrared . and the the basic components we 've got to build in for our twelve euros fifty are um an energy source , the user interface and which will um in incorporate um an integrated circuit that actually composes the message um based on what the which buttons the user presses , we turn that into a message , um and then we need a sending mechanism to send it to the receiver . now i would have hoped i think that 's my only slide actually , yeah . i would have have hoped to um do you a pretty powerpoint slide of um my first cut design , but unfortunately the technology defeated me , so if you 'll bear with me i 'll do it on the whiteboard . so we want an energy source which is there . and we 've got to think about what that might be . project manager: hmm-mm . industrial designer: uh we obviously do n't want wires on this thing . uh typically it would be a battery , but i 'm open to suggestions . um and then we have the the user interface . oops . and the main components in there are the the th the chip that actually has the intelligence of the machine that translates button presses into a message , which it then transfers to some sending mechanism , which encodes it and sends the message to the receiver . so those are the basic things that we 've got to get in for our twelve euros fifty . thank you . project manager: hmm . okay . right . but those things as long as we can get those components , the block , that that rectangle for the user interface , is where the user comes in of what what does it look like ? what do the buttons look like ? uh what does it feel like ? that 's where the user interface is really coming into its own . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: the technical end is what 's actually gon na be in there , but also it has to be easy enough to change or repair if something goes wrong . for example the battery energy source or um what if the chip , for whatever reason , breaks down after a certain amount of time , do you just replace it ? um is there any um because it may be in the same area with several other user interfaces , like for d_v_d_s , movies , whatever . um does it have to have a a way of being segregated from the others , in a different frequency or something ? industrial designer: well i may be wrong here , but i 'd been thinking of this device as being a a cheap mass-produced device . we 're trying to sell four million of 'em , project manager: mm . industrial designer: um that 's that 's , you know , that 's almost one in every tenth household or whatever it is . um and i had n't thought of it as being a reparable thing , project manager: okay . industrial designer: you just if it goes wrong you chuck it out , and that 's why i 'm a bit concerned . i like the idea of speech recognition , that 's a great idea , but i 'm not convinced we can put it into this box for the price that we need gon na need to hit . project manager: okay . user interface: whoop . marketing: do we have um ki some idea of how much it would cost to create a device that has these basic elements ? user interface: is n't that your job ? marketing: because then project manager: oh . industrial designer: marketing: no , user interface: oh right . marketing: the chip composer marketing . oh no , the chip composer sender . project manager: mm . what they cost . industrial designer: um , i 'm i 'm i 'm hoping that my personal coach is gon na give me some advice on that , if you 're asking me , marketing: i i do n't believe i know , um . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . industrial designer: but marketing: be because then we would ha ha figure out how much we had to play with in terms of user interface and this look and feel idea . user interface: yeah . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: it does it does seem as if we 're just to do something really simple and mass-produced , the which is pretty much the same as these existing models , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: just maybe a little bit more inspired , marketing: inspired ? user interface: but basically just the same . marketing: mm . user interface: although what what uh suddenly came into my head is , you know how they always take two a_a_ batteries which which is really not very efficient at all . could it be possible to have uh , you know , like a rechargeable internal battery , like , well , like an m_p_ three player does ? with that you could jus or a mobile phone or whatever . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: you could you know , you just plug into a power source for a couple of hours , and then it 's recharged for ages and ages and ages , and you do n't have to worry with replacing a_a_ batteries , marketing: well user interface: which are marketing: that has another element , which is if every time you 're done using the remote you put it on a charger , then you then it has a place . project manager: mm . user interface: you 'd never need uh batteries would y uh yeah . marketing: yeah , but it also has a place , user interface: and it 's not stuck down the back of the sofa . marketing: so exactly . project manager: mm . user interface: but then again i d i do n't know if this is within our price range or not . marketing: that 's a really good idea . industrial designer: well i uh think that 's a very interesting idea , but um i 'm not a very good industrial designer and i do n't know much about what these things cost . i 'll do some research for the next meeting . project manager: okay . user interface: marketing: well it 's better than my idea about solar , probably . project manager: uh yeah . industrial designer: well solar may not be so good when you 're watching tv in the night , marketing: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: but project manager: mm . user interface: well it is just so annoying how marketing: depen project manager: it would have to sor store up the energy marketing: mm . yeah . industrial designer: yeah , i guess . project manager: and then use it . solar can do that . industrial designer: we may be talking quite heavy then . project manager: m yeah , that would be too heavy marketing: yeah . project manager: and it 'd cost too much . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: no , but just a rechargeable internal battery would probably i mean it might cost more to at first to develop and to install , marketing: mm-hmm user interface: but for long-term use it 'll be so much more convenient and economic than fiddling around trying to replace chunky a_a_ batteries and not having any in your kitchen drawer marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and industrial designer: so do you think we might make that a selling point if it was something that we found we could afford to develop ? user interface: you know f marketing: definitely , project manager: mm . marketing: 'cause i 'm thinking in terms of um uh the loss and breakage of um remotes , how much of that is is to do with it not really having a uh a home , a um a nest , a place to live , user interface: mm . project manager: mm . user interface: sort of have its little dock that you could put it in . industrial designer: marketing: exactly . project manager: yeah . marketing: so if you can dock it , um you know , you could s argue that this is project manager: and the dock could look very fancy and that could be your inspiration of having it looking decent . marketing: exactly . user interface: still i do n't know if it 's quite within our price range . project manager: hmm . marketing: mm . 'cause you are talking about another component , like another piece of hardware . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . okay . marketing: mm . project manager: are we agreed as to what our target group is though ? pretty much , so that we 'd be looking for the younger end . marketing: well i i brought up some exactly , but i think you raised some good questions about are there enough of these people out there , or are they making purchasing decisions ? industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: you know , industrial designer: i was wondering that , marketing: these are the industrial designer: because i ag i agree that there there 're people with uh how can i put it , more money than sense and who are liable to buy something new , project manager: i i s usually put more money than brains . marketing: yeah , exactly . industrial designer: but bu but what i was gon na say was , although they they may be buying um , you know , personal music devices and all that , marketing: oh oh oh i 'll make a note of that , kate . good , good comment . industrial designer: are they necessarily buying tv remote controls ? because they probably live in a household that has a tv if they 're at the lower end of the age range , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i do n't know . user interface: yeah . marketing: it might be good to know um uh who , you know , who 's actually buying televisions and are we in a uh uh s region where people have more than one television in a home ? industrial designer: mm . i think we 've got a big hill to climb here , have n't we ? i mean we 've got ta persuade people who 've got a remote control 'cause it came with the telly that they should buy our product instead . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm . yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: or do we s make sure that it goes to the man through the manufacturer ? we sell to the manufacturer as the remote that goes with it . industrial designer: right , good point . yeah , yeah okay , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , good point . user interface: that 's probably more what it is . marketing: yeah . project manager: what would be a more efficient way of doing it ? marketing: yeah , and and some of our d_v_d_ players incidentally have them , because we have the relationship with our own department , but moreover we need to to go for the the manufacturers . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . right . user interface: we 're not gon na get any resolutions by the end of the day , project manager: probably not . user interface: are we ? marketing: mm . project manager: um the other thing that we 're supposed to do is make decision on our functions . our functions , we 've so far decided , i think , that power , channel , volume make it attractive . um it has to have an enter key and of course the number keys . it has to have big user-friendly buttons and sh n definitely we wan na be inspired that the current styles are just plain awful . user interface: yeah . marketing: do we need um let me project manager: is that agreeable to everyone ? marketing: br actually , um industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: the enter key i have a chart here that i did n't include . um project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: do you want the gizmo ? marketing: yeah , which might project manager: throw some light on that . marketing: th yeah , th those are felt like had a lot of charts . project manager: um actually we 're , you know , we are almost a half hour out of the forty minutes , so we have to get close to finishing . marketing: okay , i i my only comment is i think maybe um we could somehow include an enter key in like a power key if power power was enter and pow that was my only just really in terms of streamlining . project manager: ah . mm-hmm . okay . enter , power as a s oh um a sum simultaneous key . marketing: um exactly . again , you know , project manager: is that okay with you ? marketing: thinking of menus or user interface: sorry , project manager: would that industrial designer: h how does that work ? user interface: i was miles away . industrial designer: how so so how does that work , user interface: i was re i was reading the chart to be honest . marketing: um well project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: how do you avoid switching the thing off when you actually wan na press enter ? marketing: if you 're pressing enter , the the thing would already be on , and so maybe um when you press power , initially it turns it on , press power again and use that as an enter um project manager: then you 'd have to have an off te off key . marketing: so you press power after you 've um well i was thinking maybe you to turn it off you 'd have to press power twice in succession , industrial designer: okay , yep , mm-hmm . project manager: mm . marketing: and maybe power follows something like a channel up channel down power , and then that would make that choice . industrial designer: it 's not getting a bit complicated ? could granny do this , marketing: well industrial designer: or are we just not aiming at granny ? marketing: or y yeah . or something that has a a turning dial , where at the far end is on or off . user interface: who 's got an ipod then ? industrial designer: marketing: yeah , project manager: mm . okay . marketing: i do n't um i wish . anyway , uh that was the only comment about um some of the the decisions people have made , what 's most important . project manager: mm . marketing: it 's definitely channel , volume , power . user interface: yeah , things like screen settings and audio settings , i would generally do them on the actual television itself , marketing: exactly . user interface: like here you have a you know , a little flap th with a little control panel on the actual box itself . marketing: exactly . user interface: i i would n't know how to do it using a remote control , marketing: yeah . user interface: so um i would say that they are definitely less relevant . project manager: okay . so marketing: okay , well . thanks for looking at that . project manager: i guess easy to use is the other thing that we want 'em to be able to do . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: as you said , you know , do n't make it too hard for the granny . marketing: we do n't wan na outsmart project manager: i just joined that set last week . marketing: hmm . project manager: um first grandchild arrived . marketing: congratulations . industrial designer: mm . user interface: industrial designer: uh . project manager: um so are we agreed then of those things ? and let 's go back to agenda marketing: d project manager: and hook me up . mm . this oughta be fun . it probably wo n't go the first time , it 'll probably be like a g mess . come on . uh it lost it off here . uh marketing: oh you 're fine . it 's fine . project manager: no , it was up there , but i could n't see it down here . mm . this time it should be both . there we go . industrial designer: how do you do that ? how do you make it do both ? project manager: um you have to keep doing the financi the the f_n_ and f_ eight to five minutes to finish , industrial designer: ah okay , it toggles through , project manager: thank you a lot for telling me . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um right , marketing: i think you have to cycle through . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: we 're ready to close . um will be completed q questionnaire , um then we 'll have some time for individual work to continue our research um and i 'll put some minutes of this meeting together . um your individual assignments are for um kate to do the components , for you , steph , to do the user interface and for you the trend-watching . um and each of us will get help from our coach . are we agreed to get ourselves together and then have lunch ? user interface: yes . project manager: okay . industrial designer: sounds good . project manager: then that 's the end of this meeting . and i hope that 's good enough for her to tell her that 's the end . okay ? industrial designer: okay . user interface: we did n't come to any sort of decision on the functions though . project manager: well i think i went over the functions and wrote them down and marked them . user interface: alright , well that 's fine then . project manager: um that 's what i went over and nobody was objecting to them . marketing: okay . um and you 'd mentioned i i was just gon na say , could you reiterate the new project requirements , project manager: okay . marketing: because it they were it has to be for a tv , just to keep myself project manager: um the teletext is outdated , industrial designer: so we 're still in meeting , are n't we ? project manager: the internet is important , marketing: yeah , i think i 've project manager: it 's only to be for a tv and it must include the corporate image , colour and slogan um marketing: okay . project manager: which i think is more in the user uh range , with steph . user interface: mm . sorry , what what actually are these is that the yellow and black ? project manager: it does n't tell me . marketing: mm . user interface: from their i 'll just use it from their website . project manager: mm-hmm . okay ? user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . marketing: right . thank you .

industrial designer argued that although industrial designer appreciated the idea of speech recognition , it was not practical and affordable to put the technology of speech into a cheap mass-produced device .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> lynne neagle am: okay . good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from suzy davies and jack sargeant and i 'm very pleased to welcome jayne bryant back , who is substituting for jack today . are there any declarations of interest from members , please ? no . okay , thank you . item 2 , then , this morning , is our sixth scrutiny session on the children ( abolition of defence of reasonable punishment ) ( wales ) bill . i 'm very pleased to welcome our witnesses this morning : sally jenkins , who is chair of all wales heads of children ’ s services and is here representing the association of directors of social services ; alastair birch , who is senior system leader for equalities and safeguarding at pembrokeshire county council , who is here representing the association of directors of education wales ; and councillor huw david , who is the welsh local government association spokesperson for health and social care and leader of bridgend county borough council . so , thank you all for attending this morning . we 're very pleased to have you here . we 've got a lot of ground to cover , so , if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions and i 'll start just by asking about your general support for the bill , which is outlined in the evidence . can you just explain why you think the current law is ineffective or unclear ? alastair birch: bore da—bore da , bawb . so , i 'm alastair birch . the statement , really , from adew is that the rights of the child should be educated and achieved , really , under the united nations convention on the rights of the child . the current legislation has been criticised , obviously , by the un concerning the defence of reasonable punishment still being within our current legislation . so , we will always—adew will always—advocate that the rights of the child be upheld , so that is really the fundamental aspect in terms of the statement from adew , and the position of adew is that the rights of the child are fundamental in this process . and there are certain articles— . i know that the rights of children and young persons ( wales ) measure 2011 made sure that article 3 and article 4 , article 12 and article 37 were a focus in terms of making sure that the best interests of the child were put first , that children expressing their views and opinions was a priority . and we know , for safeguarding purposes , that the express opinions of the child and the voice of the child are a fundamental aspect of any safe environment , whether it be a school or college . so , that is—the position is really following that legal position under the rights of children and young persons ( wales ) measure . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . nothing to add at this stage , no ? sally jenkins: i 'll just add , on behalf of adss and on behalf of children 's services and social services more widely , for us , this is not a change in our position , this is not new ; this is a position that we , on behalf of the leaders of social services across wales , have taken over many years , going back 20 , 25 years . i think what we would say is that we really welcome this bill and we welcome the proposed change for the clarity it would bring—the clarity that it would bring for children , for parents and for professionals . i think what we would recognise is that this is a very little-used piece of legislation , so it 's rare , it 's not as if this is something that is going to cast great change across the scene for children and families in wales , but what it will do is represent a change in the reality of how we care and nurture our children . i would echo absolutely what alastair has said in terms of the rights of the child , but equally , in terms of all of our policies in wales in terms of promoting well-being for children , this has to be key . so , for us , this is about a natural progression of change in how we care for our children in wales . for children 's services at the very sharp end of this world , for us , it brings a true clarity . this continues with an ambiguity in how we treat our children and how we care for our children , and the shift for us brings that very much needed clarity . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the committee has already heard different views about whether there 's clear evidence that physical punishment is harmful to children . what evidence does the work of social services provide about whether physical punishment is actually harmful ? sally jenkins: obviously , what you 'll all be aware of is that , as part of the consultation for this bill , the public policy institute did a further piece of research to look at the impact of physical punishment on children . a number of things that we know—we know from across the world that the evidence is that introducing legislation or changing legislation in this way improves children 's positions within their families . what we know is that children themselves , as alastair has already referred to , really find physical punishment demeaning and harmful , and for children it is an emotionally damaging experience . now , there may be disagreement about that , there will be different views on that , but that 's the voice of the child in this debate . the voice of the child is very clear that physical punishment is for them harmful . i think what we would also say is that , in the world that we work in , it 's part of a continuum , and , whilst this is an element of how children are cared for , what we see is a continuum where an acceptance of how we treat children in a particular way perpetuates throughout our work . by changing this , it helps that shift to that absolute recognition that our children must be cared for in a way that is physically safe in all dimensions for them . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've had evidence from the equal protection network that the reasonable punishment defence undermines child protection and fails to protect children because it permits an arbitrary level of violence , which invades children 's physical integrity , making it a potential pathway to more serious physical or sexual abuse , and you did refer to that just now . is there anything you want to add on that ? sally jenkins: i would echo that . i think there is something in this that is about our culture , about how we see our children . it is about how we see our smallest and most vulnerable people , and if it is acceptable it opens the door to those other , more extreme versions of violence , which then complicates the issue for us . this is about clarity , and , whilst there is an argument that this is a small episode for a child , it 's not a small episode for a child , it is a major episode for a child , and i think absolutely , as you said , the potential for it then to lead on , and over gradation and time to increase the risk for children , is clearly there . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the final question from me : your written evidence emphasises the need for greater clarity around the definition of what constitutes corporal punishment , but that contrasts with what we 've been told by the children 's commissioner and the equal protection network , who 've emphasised the importance of simplicity in the bill . how do you respond to that view , and is what you 're calling for essential to be on the face of the bill ? sally jenkins: it 's not essential for it to be on the face of the bill . what we would like to see is discussion within the implementation phase for that nuancing . absolutely agree in terms of simplicity—i think that is really important—and i 've already mentioned clarity . what we do n't want to do is further confuse the position . we know that the legislation in different countries has done that , and there are ways that you can do it , but what we would welcome is an opportunity during the implementation phase for discussion . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . huw david: and , as a principle , obviously we would welcome full involvement , and we know there 's the commitment from welsh government to full involvement in the implementation , because , as with every piece of legislation , implementation is the most important part , and we would want to ensure there is that commitment to a major awareness-raising campaign , and there is that from welsh government , because we need to take families , carers and parents with us on this . also we need to ensure that there is that support available to parents and carers that do sometimes struggle with parenting , and that needs to be a universal offer across wales . if we 're to progress with this , that has to be an option that is offered to every parent in wales . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . sally jenkins: local authorities have already been very heavily involved in terms of looking at this bill and exploring what the issues are and the discussions and looking at what the implications from a local authority perspective will be , as huw describes , both in terms of the awareness raising , early support and intervention and prevention services for families against the backdrop of the current issues that we have in local government , but also awareness raising—because absolutely it is key that families come with us on this journey . this is not an imposition . this is embracing a culture and a value system for our children . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . i 've got some questions now from dawn bowden on the implementation of the bill . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . so , you 've pre-empted me , huw . huw david: right . sorry . i 've got good eyesight ; i ca n't see— . [ laughter . ] dawn bowden am: you 've already said , obviously , that you 're looking towards working with welsh government in terms of its implementation . what 's been your role so far in terms of the implementation of the bill—local authorities generally , now ? have you had a role ? has welsh government been involving you in discussions around the introduction of the bill so far ? huw david: yes . so , obviously we were consulted—a key consultee—but also our officials have worked very closely with welsh government officials to make sure this is implemented successfully , if it is progressed . sally jenkins: our involvement with this , from a social services perspective , goes back over two years , directly in working towards this point , never mind the history in terms of work towards this area . but , very directly in relation to this bill , we were first involved at least two years ago , to recollect , and that was in a series of workshops with other agencies , for example children and family court advisory and support service cymru and the police , and looking in real depth at what the implications would be for us as agencies to look at what the likely trajectory would be in terms of our pathways for referral into our services and what that might mean for us . and then particularly , for example , with cafcass cymru in relation to private law , what the fallout might be , and then what , if anything—and that 's the discussion that we need to have—that could mean for children 's services in particular , given the pressures that we 're already under . so , we 've been in constant , i suppose , involvement in terms of the bill already , as part of the consultation , in terms of the focus groups and in terms of direct work with welsh government officials to take this forward . and we are absolutely committed to continuing with that work . dawn bowden am: okay . you touched there on the pressures that you 're already under , which we fully appreciate , but you also mentioned in answers to lynne neagle earlier on that you welcomed the bill in terms of its clarity . so , are you confident that the bill can be implemented without any major impact on your capacity to deal with it ? sally jenkins: we 've done— . a number of local authorities—my own included , newport city council , has done some work to look at what the likely impact would be and then actually to look at what some of that costing would need to be . further work is needed on that area , and that needs to be carried out during the implementation phase . i think what we 've done is we 've looked internationally at what the impact has been elsewhere when similar legislation has been introduced to try and gauge , but that 's difficult to do in terms of comparable nations and size and also different systems . and obviously our approach in terms of children and pedagogy is very different from some of the nations that have already done this . i would n't like to say one way or the other , because i think , in terms of that culture shift , it could be a double impact on us in terms of increased referrals because of increased awareness , but it could also be , i suppose , as huw alludes to , that , if we 're looking at ensuring greater awareness of preventative services and support services for parents , actually people coming to the fore and asking us for those services as well . so , at this stage , i think what we would want to say is that we continue to be fully involved in the implementation phase , to look at what the cost implications for that could be , and not just for the local authorities but also the police , cafcass cymru , for third sector organisations involved in preventative services . i do n't think any of that should undermine the position in terms of children and their rights within our society . so , a difficult answer , in the sense that— dawn bowden am: no , i understand . what you 're saying is that this is a piece of legislation that , in your view , is a good piece of legislation . it 's setting out to , hopefully , achieve what the purpose of it is and you will deliver what you need to . can i ask you whether , then , you 've also given thought to the impact on—we 've talked about social services , but the impact on other services , like housing , education and so on ? you 're obviously coming at it from slightly different angles in other sections . alastair birch: we are part of the universal service for children , and we very much work in co-operation with the wlga and our social care colleagues , and we 've been part of that consultation . in terms of education , the main changes , or adaptations , would be around training and awareness . and , in terms of the bill , there needs to be the clarity—ambiguity would be bad—in terms of making sure that safeguarding leads within all schools have the right training and support . so , really , that 's the key element there , and then obviously the preventative services for the parents that schools can signpost , and sometimes possibly even host , in terms of being community schools . these positive parenting approaches that— . i have colleagues who have worked in that area for many years and see the benefits in how those positive parenting approaches make a difference to families . dawn bowden am: so , from your point of view , it 's awareness raising , is it ? alastair birch: it 's awareness raising ; it 's making sure that professionals are fully briefed on necessary changes , that there 's very little ambiguity , that we are aware that— . we still have that duty to report whenever there is any safeguarding concern . that 'll still be part of the all-wales child protection procedures . that wo n't change , and that duty is always going to be there for all our professionals . but that awareness raising and training will be the key , and then , obviously , working in co-operation with our colleagues . dawn bowden am: okay , i understand that . have you been given an indication of how long you 've got between royal assent and implementation , and whether you 've thought through any of the key milestones that need to be implemented ? sally jenkins: there 's a group proposed that would be a strategic leadership group in the steering group that we 're part of , which is now laying out what would happen after royal assent if that is given . so , we will work towards that . dawn bowden am: okay . my final question , chair , is about some of the responses we 've had to this committee that say that the state should not get involved in family life—i 'm sure you 've heard those views—unless it 's in the most serious circumstances . to what extent do you think that this bill undermines the existing local authority responsibilities , or do n't you ? huw david: the state 's paramount role is to protect children from harm . that is our legal responsibility , it 's our moral responsibility , and we will discharge that . and there is obviously a view—it 's a view that is enshrined in the un convention on the rights of the child—that physical punishment , physical harm to a child is harm to a child , and we should be preventing that and act to prevent that . that would be the position of the welsh local government association , and we also respect the mandate that members of the national assembly for wales have too . and we believe that children can be raised by parents without recourse to physical punishment , effectively , and we 'd support parents in that . we do not believe that in the 50 nations across the world where such legislation exists that the state is interfering in family life unnecessarily . we believe this action reflects a cultural change , a sea change that 's taken place in wales over the last 30 to 40 years , where the vast majority of parents now say that they do not use it themselves , they do not support it , and we believe this is actually a reflection of what has happened in welsh society . we support assembly members in the view that the natural progression of that is that children 's rights are protected across wales . dawn bowden am: so , i 've got largely positive feedback from you in terms of the bill and its intentions , and so on . do you foresee any unintended consequences for this bill ? huw david: if we implement it carefully , if we implement it with the right resources , then i hope not . i think not . but as with every piece of legislation , it is about the implementation , it is about the cultural change as well , and that 's why i can not overstress the importance of making sure that resources are made available , because our social services departments—children 's social services in particular—are overstretched . they are at breaking point—make no bones about it—and they are dealing with children who are facing serious harm and neglect . we are having record numbers of contacts from police , from teachers , from doctors and , of course , from children themselves who are experiencing that harm and neglect . and obviously , we want to focus our energy and our attention on those children . equally , though , we do n't want to lose sight of those families and children that are experiencing significant problems , but who we want to support through our early intervention and prevention programmes , and that is why it is important that there is investment in those programmes , so that children do not end up in that terrible position where we have to , for their safety , take them from their birth families to protect them . and the reality is , in wales , that we are doing that to more children than we 've done for a long time , and the numbers are growing across wales . and that is only because of the most appalling neglect and abuse , because there is no way that any judge would permit us to act to make a child safe if it was not for that fact , and the facts are there . so , i do n't want that focus to be lost , but , of course , we welcome and understand the need to progress this piece of legislation . dawn bowden am: that rise that you talk about here , is that due to more interventions , greater awareness , more incidents ? i 'm trying to link this to the bill in terms of whether the bill is actually going to give you more work to do in those areas . sally jenkins: on the reasons for the rise in the numbers of looked-after children in wales , which are higher than those in england , and also the numbers of contacts that we have across the local authorities , the work of the care crisis review , which was completed last year ; the work of isabelle trowler , who 's the chief social worker in england ; countless research and reports that have taken place in the last 18 months ; and currently the public law working group , under the auspices of the president of the family court , would all indicate that it 's multifactorial . so , what you have is a range of reasons that have led to the increasing numbers of children becoming looked after across england and wales . what you ca n't do is identify a single reason . there have been headlines that have said , 'is it increased austerity ? ' that is clearly a part of this . is it in wales an increased awareness of adverse childhood experiences and the emphasis of the impact on children of , for example , domestic abuse ? is it because of our understanding of what happens to children in those households ? all of that research would say it 's all of those things . and then , when you also add in changes in our practice with our colleagues in the judiciary , changes in our police service , but also changes in our preventative services , you 've got that whole range of elements . and there is going on across the local authorities and welsh government a huge amount of work to try to address and understand that , and then to ameliorate that . children who need to be in care for safety need to be in care , but what we have to do is get to a point where fewer children come into care and we 're able to protect them , firstly , and secondly where those children who are in care are cared for in a way that delivers the best possible outcomes for them . so , there is no simple answer unfortunately . i think , in terms of this bill and unintended consequences , i agree absolutely with everything that huw has said . my job is around children at that far end , but what this bill does is it brings clarity . it brings a clarity even for those children at that very far end . it takes away even that point of discussion that this could possibly be okay , and i think that 's important to hang on to . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . sorry . alastair birch: one unintended consequences is that i think that there will be an increased focus on the uncrc . and , in terms of children having a discussion around this point , children need to be part of that discussion . it 's something that affects them . and a key aspect of education is the voice of the child . it has become significantly— . it 's changed completely in the last 10 years , and it is one of the key things in terms of us driving improvements . dawn bowden am: would that be something that you would be looking to do in schools ? alastair birch: anything that improves the voice of the child in any educational context is good and it 's very powerful for the children . and it improves their educational experiences , encouraging the opportunities for them to discuss the issues , the adverse childhood experiences that they encounter , which are significant , and it 's our educational professionals that are facing this day-in , day-out . they 've become a very highly trained workforce , they 're ace aware , they 're trauma aware , and anything that focuses , even increases , their professionalism and understanding around a particular point , and also— . so it 's a positive unintended consequence , shall we say , that it could reinvigorate some of the voice of the child discussion within various contexts . dawn bowden am: okay . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: we 've got some specific questions now on implementation for social services , from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . if this bill becomes law , would you encourage members of the public to contact social services departments if they do see a child being smacked ? sally jenkins: we already encourage members of the public to contact social services or the police , depending on the circumstances . interestingly , i 'm picking— janet finch-saunders am: what , if a child is being smacked now ? sally jenkins: yes . if a child is being smacked now , we would ask that people contact . we have a duty to report , as professionals . but if you were walking out , and you saw something happening to a child , in the same way as if you saw something to an adult . janet finch-saunders am: right . sally jenkins: so , i think that the challenge is about—we 've all probably , sadly , witnessed incidents in the doctor 's reception , or in a supermarket , and we 've failed to do something about it . and i think we then walk away and feel pretty guilty about that , realistically , when you see something happening to a child in a particular circumstance . i think we ca n't ignore the fact that a child is being assaulted in those circumstances . janet finch-saunders am: okay . thank you . a campaign opposing this bill , be reasonable wales , have said that 'if the law is changed , the consequences for parents will be considerable . ' it also says , 'anyone accused or convicted of assaulting a child—under the new definition— ' so , i suppose you could argue , a minor tap— 'will be subject to long-term social services involvement in their family and social stigma . ' to what extent is this accurate , and , also , will thresholds for social services intervention change if the bill is enacted ? sally jenkins: there are a number of parts to that . firstly , in terms of long-term social services intervention in a family 's life , i think , for people to be fully aware of the very few numbers of families where we have long-term intervention currently , even where there is what would be perceived as very significant abuse . what we do is we go in for short periods in families ' lives , to support them to work with their strengths , to work with them and their family members . it 's not about us going into families , whatever some of the public perception may be . our aim is to get in and get out . so , in terms of long-term intervention , what we want is for families to find their own solutions . we want families to be able to work with each other , and together , and local community support , and preventative services , to be able to address issues . this is not about punitive approaches from social services . so , that 's the first element . in terms of thresholds for children 's services , we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us . there may be a small number of referrals that come through . what we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle . we recognise that 's likely to happen . because we also know that this is actually quite a rare occurrence currently ; this is not a defence that 's being used with great frequency , this is not something that is happening . and if we look at the data , we know that the incidents of children , and the number of parents who now recognise this as an acceptable form of punishment , has steadily declined over the last 15 to 20 years . so it 's diminishing as it is . janet finch-saunders am: so , on that one then , is there a need for legislation that will—obviously there 'll be resources for the welsh government and there 'll be resources out of hours and things like that—is there a need for legislation if , as you say , natural behaviour and the culture is changing ? let 's be honest , as you 've rightly pointed out , in social services—i know in my own authority—in your own authority , you 're saying that even now you 're working with the police , on systematic failings within the system . sally jenkins: two things . firstly , we want legislation that reflects our society—we do n't want the two to be out of kilter . that would be my first natural response : surely our legislation should be reflective of what our world is . it should n't be that we 've got these rather confusing elements running in parallel , and that continues to perpetuate a lack of clarity and the ambiguity that we currently see . i think the other element is that , again , this is about potentially an accelerating of that awareness and that culture in our society , about how we care for our children . we 've got there naturally ; we 've got there by the change that 's happened in wales over the last 15 to 20 years . what this does is to continue with that change and continue with that awareness and understanding of how we positively , from a strength-based approach , should care for our children , bearing in mind what 's required of us in terms of the uncrc . janet finch-saunders am: okay . are there any comments from anyone else ? huw david: simply to say that i think that , in terms of that clarity for the very vulnerable children out there who are currently being assaulted—seriously assaulted and abused by their parents , which goes on on a daily basis—that is already covered by existing legislation . but at the moment , they do n't know , because they could be being told—and they probably are being told—by their parents that 's it 's okay , that they can smack their child and that that 's acceptable . they do n't know the difference . a young child is not going to know that difference and there is confusion about what is— . and if you asked most parents , and in fact lots of professionals , they would not be able to tell you , and probably most of you would n't be able to tell me exactly where is the threshold— janet finch-saunders am: yes , where 's that line . huw david: well , at the moment , we do n't know where that line is . that vulnerable child , at home , being abused by their parents , does not know where that line is . and they should know where that line is because then they can pick up the phone to childline or they can talk to a professional and ask them where that line is . so , that would be a step forward . i do recognise , though , that what we do n't want to do—and the last thing any of us want to do—is criminalise parents who are bringing up their children . that is why we 're saying there needs to be an emphasis on the support programmes that are available to parents . and to be clear , there is no way that we want long-term involvement in any child 's life , but particularly not in the lives of children who have been smacked by their parents . that is not going to be the result of this legislation , trust me , because we do n't want to be involved in—we have n't got the resources to be involved in children 's lives . the social worker or the police officer—if they become involved , then there would be a proportionate response to that , and there 'll also be a test about whether or not that is progressed . so , if there is an allegation—if this legislation is passed—then that will be looked into and a consideration will be made about whether any action will be taken , and as with any allegation of the law being broken , there would be a proportionate response , as there is now . lynne neagle am: and the next question does relate to the practical response to that . janet . janet finch-saunders am: yes . can you outline the practical ways in which social services ' interaction with parents will change as a result of this proposed law and do you envisage that all referrals to the police will be automatically referred to social services for an assessment ? who 's going to make those decisions ? sally jenkins: that will be part of the implementation phase about that decision making . interestingly , the number of referrals that we currently get from the police that we take absolutely no action on is extraordinary . so , we get a very , very large number of— . it will be happening now ; sitting in the civic centre in newport city council will be a whole host of social workers taking in the public protection notifications from overnight . it 's 10 o'clock , so they 're assessing them now , as we speak . and an awful lot of those will have no further action from the local authority . janet finch-saunders am: but will they be investigated ? sally jenkins: no . there will be no action . there are countless referrals made by agencies to local authorities that we take no action on . janet finch-saunders am: so , if there 's an increase as a result of greater awareness— sally jenkins: what happens is there is a paper assessment of them . there 's a look at what 's happened , who 's involved , what the police have reported , and there 's work being done with the police to improve that . because one of the things that we want to get to is actually where we 're not using huge amounts of time to look at that , but what comes to us is what we act on . so , there is work going on with a number of police authorities to look at how you improve that process . but i suppose , to pick up , each incident will be looked at , each one will be assessed in a way that is proportionate , as huw says , to look at what 's happened and then investigated . lynne neagle am: sally , can you give us a couple of examples of what kind of things might have come in that you would then take no action on ? sally jenkins: we get countless referrals , for example , where there 's been a domestic abuse incident overnight where a child was n't present in the property and we then have n't taken action . it ’ ll be where the level of harm that ’ s perceived to happen to that child is below the threshold for intervention from children 's services . janet finch-saunders am: i ’ m pretty cynical about assessment , because , you know , i have people come in who are benefit claimants where , when they ’ ve been assessed , the whole process has been very flawed and i ’ ve had to fight and fight and fight on their behalf . so— sally jenkins: assessment processes within social— janet finch-saunders am: but if you 're struggling now with those assessments— sally jenkins: assessment processes within social services are as laid out in the social services and well-being ( wales ) act 2014. so , we have within what we carry out , i suppose , that kind of initial look , that look at the information , what else do we know about that family— janet finch-saunders am: and are they qualified people that are doing this ? sally jenkins: yes , absolutely . huw david: and , in fact , in lots of places in wales now , it ’ s a multi-agency assessment . so , it ’ s a joint assessment carried out with police professionals and health professionals . janet finch-saunders am: so , what proportion currently would you not be taking any action on , if a report came in of some domestic abuse where a child had perhaps been smacked ? sally jenkins: if something came in to us where a child had been smacked and there was something clearly there , we would look at it . we would clearly look at it and we would take some sort of action . janet finch-saunders am: even now , before the legislation ? sally jenkins: yes . lynne neagle am: can you ask a final question ? and i 'm going to have to appeal for brief answers , because we 've got a lot of ground to cover . huw david: just very quickly , there may be no action from social services , but it doesn ’ t mean that we don ’ t offer support . so , the expectation is that support is offered in those circumstances from family support services , for example— sally jenkins: or prevention . huw david: —or prevention services . so , we would not say , if we were aware , for example , that there was domestic abuse at a home , ‘ there ’ s no role for children ’ s social services ’ , because there may be an assessment that that child may not be at immediate risk of harm , but we would obviously recognise that there are causes for concern there and we would offer that support . so , just to be clear about that . and that ’ s a process that happens in every social services department in the uk , and it ’ s happened for a very long time , and , in fact , it ’ s reflective of the legislation that you have laid down as assembly members . lynne neagle am: and are those services there , huw ? because i ’ m very acutely aware of the pressure on local government . are the services there ? is there sufficient resource in things like families first ? because what i ’ m hearing on the ground is that eligibility is changing for even those preventative services . huw david: there ’ s not enough of those services , and , obviously—you may have heard me saying this before—i think we need to invest more in those services , and i hope you invest more in the services , because , obviously , prevention is better than cure . and those pressures that sally talked about earlier are pressures that are not going away ; they ’ re only increasing by the day , actually , and i would want us to be able to offer those services now . because that example of a child that perhaps is in a home where there is domestic abuse—we ’ ll probably have another referral off them in a couple of months ’ time , and that could escalate . and what i ’ d rather do is provide support to that family and try and stop that family breaking down so that , in six months , we 're not going back and saying that we 've got to take this child into care because the domestic abuse has worsened and that child is at risk . but those services need additional investment . sally jenkins: i appreciate that time is of the essence , but , just really quickly in relation to that , it ’ s not just social services . so , for example , there are developments like encompass , which is a piece of work that is being rolled out across gwent and across other areas , which is where the police automatically notify the school overnight of an incident , not expecting the school to do anything per se , but to be aware , to be able to offer care for that child . alastair birch: can i add to that ? operation encompass i know in gwent has been operational , and we started it in pembrokeshire 18 months ago . we as a local authority—and it ’ ll be education that will contact the school around the domestic incident happening , and the school as part of that protocol will provide a level of universal service support for that child when they come in , before 9 o ’ clock , so that professionals are aware of the needs of the welfare of that child at that point . so , you know , schools play a key role in the universal service of this and we work very closely with our social care colleagues on that . lynne neagle am: okay . janet , your last question , please . janet finch-saunders am: the bill 's explanatory memorandum refers to an estimate of 274 offences annually where lawful chastisement was used as a defence or considered . it says there is also potential to create extra demand on out-of-hours social services teams due to the time that the offences were reported , and in order to support safeguarding measures . have you assessed how this bill will impact on emergency and out-of-hours local authority services ? sally jenkins: we have considered that , and again i think that 's something that we would very much want to look at as part of implementation . we have out-of-hours provision , we have emergency duty teams already across wales that operate 24/7 . there 's no doubt that they exist and they work very closely with our police colleagues . janet finch-saunders am: are they overstretched at the moment ? sally jenkins: i think in the same way as all of social services is . if we were offered additional resource , we are going to take that . but are they working in a way that protects children day in , day out , and vulnerable adults ? yes , they are , and they will continue to do so . lynne neagle am: thank you very much . we 've got some specific questions now on the impact on education from jayne bryant . jayne bryant am: thank you , chair . good morning . alastair , you 've already mentioned about awareness raising and training , which will be key with educational professionals . how confident are you that teachers and others working in those educational settings will be clear about how to support the implementation of this bill , if enacted ? alastair birch: training requirements for all professionals in education settings are clear . the universal tier 1 training is there , and all local authorities in wales will implement that . in that level of general safeguarding awareness and training , the infinite emphasis is on the duty to report . that will remain the same . the thresholds for social care , that 's their responsibility . that duty to report will always be there . it says in 'keeping learners safe ' , which is the bible in terms of education professionals , that there 's a responsibility on the professional to make that referral and for that universal service . so , the more specialist safeguarding leads within the schools , who have become highly skilled professionals in terms of understanding what might be significant harm—because that 's what we 're talking about—they understand the legalities when a referral needs to be made . there 's always the collation of safeguarding information , where there might be just general concerns about neglect and other areas , which combined would create a picture that there might be significant neglect or significant harm to the child , and then that referral would be made to the child care assessment team or the police . so , that awareness—it needs to be clear for educational professionals that that duty to report is always there . if they believe that that significant harm has happened then that report then goes to the child care assessment team . they will make the judgment on the threshold because they are the professionals . they have the multi-agency awareness of how that meets the threshold . but in terms of education , it 'll be that awareness , making sure that there 's clarity . if there 's anything that professionals need to be trained additionally on , it 'll need to go into 'keeping learners safe ' , which at the moment is being rewritten . so , there would have to be some new possible information there relating to this . but as long as there 's clarity , and once that implementation phase and the discussion has happened , as long as it 's clear for professionals that the duty is always there and they feel a significant harm , then that report will always be there and will always need to be made . it 's making sure—and i 'll echo what my colleague said , huw—that the services are key for families . schools are absolutely fundamental in that support for the families . they have those relationships with the families . i know there was discussion around professional trust . on a daily basis , professionals are working on that trust with parents , because they are the ones that can engage with those families . the family support officers that are working on the ground with highly complex families , with multiple leads and supporting the children—they are fundamental , and investment in that level of support would also help our colleagues as well . so , anything that 's preventative . that is already happening in schools and is effective , and is shown to be effective , and has an evidence base—we 'd always support that that would continue to be invested in . so , that 's really my answer . jayne bryant am: okay . and you were saying about how important trust is as well , but do you think that there 's a risk that those in education settings will have a key role in referring more parents to social services , which some have said could cause potential harm to relationships and cause mistrust ? alastair birch: i do n't think it 's a matter of mistrust—it 's a matter of , you know , if a professional believes , based on the evidence that they have , because they 're working with that child every day , that there is significant harm to that child , they are under a duty to report that to social care . so , part of the work is with families , and most of the referrals we make are with parental consent . that consent is a key element of this , and conversation with our social care colleagues is usually , 'you need to speak to the parents again and have a conversation with them . ' some of the nfas—the ones that do n't get referred at threshold—it will come back to school for , possibly , some support from the family or a team around the family or some other aspect . so , i do n't think— . the trust in the professionals—it 's actually more important that we are seen to be upholding our duties under the all-wales safeguarding procedures . that 's what engenders trust in a professional workforce . jayne bryant am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you very much . we 're going to move on now to some questions about the importance of awareness raising from siân gwenllian . sian gwenllian am: good morning . in looking at your written evidence , you say that we must make it very clear to parents , guardians and the public that this legislation is not trying to criminalise parents , and that is clearly very important for you . how do you think we should do that and who should be doing that work ? sally jenkins: i think that 's really broad . obviously , colleagues in education , colleagues in social care , colleagues in preventative services , but also welsh government and the national assembly , in terms of those drivers in relation to that awareness raising are really , really key . if you look at some of the other campaigns that have been run , notably in relation to violence against women , domestic abuse and sexual violence , and echoing some of those building campaigns that have been done to raise awareness—i think those would be really good models to begin to consider in terms of how this is taken forward with awareness . we also know that there are a number of routes that we can go through in terms of raising awareness . we have existing preventative services , we have all our universal services , we have the regional safeguarding boards and the national safeguarding boards . so , there are a number of avenues that we could then explore . in terms of not wishing to criminalise , i think if we look at the numbers , they are very , very small . and i think one of the things we need to hold on to in this is a sense of proportion about what is or is n't likely to happen once or if this bill ever gets to the point of royal assent—they are small numbers who currently use this defence . it is about that wider issue of awareness raising , and using all of those avenues will help us to do that in the broadest sense . sian gwenllian am: do you , therefore , believe that this needs to be on the face of the bill ? that is , you do n't say this in your evidence . i 'd like to know your opinion on that . scotland is going to be making it a duty for scottish ministers to raise awareness of the impact of the bill . so far , the welsh government says that we do n't need to do that in wales . would n't it make it clearer for you if it was a clear duty on the face of the bill , for example as it was with the human transplantation ( wales ) act 2013 ? there was a duty in that act for ministers to promote transplantation . surely , that awareness raising aspect would be clearer for everyone if it was on the face of the bill . do you have an opinion on that ? huw david: well , welsh government have given that commitment , and i know the welsh government honour every commitment that they make— [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: that 's why i 'm asking . huw david: i do n't know whether that is necessary—i 'm not a legislator . i think that there 's obviously an inherent interest in welsh government raising awareness , because we have to raise awareness effectively for this to be successful , otherwise we will have parents who feel that they 're being criminalised , and that 's the last thing we want . i think it 's worthy of consideration , but , as i say , i 'm not a legislator or a lawyer , so i do n't know what implications that will have long term . but to be fair to welsh government , i think that commitment is one that i 'm sure will be honoured , because welsh government will want to make a success of this bill if it does receive royal assent . sian gwenllian am: okay . but is it clear who would pay for all of that ? huw david: i 've suddenly changed my mind— [ laughter . ] i think it should be a duty on welsh government ministers—absolutely . i do n't need to check with lawyers or legislators . there we go . and that 's the wlga position ; i do n't need to ask the other 21 leaders on that either . [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: would n't it make it clearer if there was a clear duty on the face of the bill that awareness raising had to happen ? it would be clearer , then , for local authorities and people in the front-line services what needs to happen . sally jenkins: i 'm going to echo huw . [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: i thought you might . okay , fine . lynne neagle am: okay . we 're moving on now , then , to the contentious issue of resources and we 've got some questions from hefin . hefin david am: sally jenkins , you said that the purpose of the bill is to bring clarity and to remove what is a little-used defence . is n't this an expensive way of doing that ? sally jenkins: i do n't think so , no . i think that our children deserve the best legislation . hefin david am: but introducing this legislation diverts finances from other areas of children 's services—or does n't ? sally jenkins: well , i would say , no , i do n't think it will divert resources from children 's services . firstly , going back to the comment made , i think , proportionally , this is a very small number of cases . it 's a very small number of existing cases that go through in terms of prosecution , or consideration for prosecution . we know that it 's likely , from some of the work that we 've already done , that it 's not opening floodgates for a sudden sea of referrals to children 's services—that 's not the way this is going to be , because the numbers are not out there because of the changes that have already happened in welsh family life and welsh society . so , i think as part of the implementation phase , we need to have a really clear understanding of the trajectory of those costs and what 's likely to happen over the first six months , 12 months in terms of people 's awareness and understanding and what is referred and how that 's worked . but in terms of a huge number , no , i do n't anticipate it being that . hefin david am: but the costs would n't just be directed to the number of referrals and the number of cases raised , it 's the cost around that , with training of staff , awareness—all those extra additional costs that always come with legislation . is it too much ? is it— ? sally jenkins: no . and i agree with that—that there clearly are—but if you think , many of those things will be aligned with work we are already doing , but it brings a clarity to that work . so , our teachers , our social workers , our health workers , our police officers already get substantial training around child protection , around safeguarding , around adverse childhood experiences and around a trauma-informed approach to children . what this does is it layers a clarity on that . but rather than having a part of that training , which has to deal with this as an aspect—that is no longer there ; it is a clear message for all professions . hefin david am: i fully appreciate that , and in the briefing note you 've given us , you 've outlined the pressures on social services . so , do you think this is another way of getting money into social services ? sally jenkins: if this was a way of getting money into— . i can think of better ways , but i do n't think this is it . no , i mean , i absolutely do not think that . i think this is a clear commitment to the rights of children in wales ; this is not about levering additional resources into children 's services . oh that it was so simple . hefin david am: okay . and , do you think those costs are quantifiable ? sally jenkins: i think we are currently looking at work and are doing work across my own local authority and across two others to look at breaking down those costs , not just for local authority , but also for health , for police and for children and family court advisory and support service cymru . so , there is work currently taking place to try to quantify those costs . hefin david am: okay . i think there was a bit about local authorities that siân— lynne neagle am: okay . siân gwenllian has got a question on resources . sian gwenllian am: yes , just to carry on from that , in a way . the explanatory memorandum that accompanies the bill talks about the unknown costs for different agencies . you mentioned there that you 're doing work around trying to identify some of those costs , but would n't it be useful if the explanatory memorandum did explain more about any unknown or unidentified costs , partly in order to calm some of those fears around that ? giving a title 'unidentified costs'—is that good enough ? sally jenkins: i think , clearly , that is a challenge , and that is work that we are participating in and are committed to completing with welsh government , to look at what those costs are . sian gwenllian am: and then they can be added into this . huw david: i think this is where it would be helpful in the committee 's deliberations and where our concern would be , because the reality is we 're not going to know what the costs are until it 's actually implemented , because we have n't implemented this before . and , therefore , i think there needs to be a commitment that , whatever the costs are , those costs are met because it is legislation that is being led by the national assembly for wales . and whilst we do n't see it as levering in additional resources , we do n't think it should be at the expense of current service provision to vulnerable families in wales , and therefore it 's important that it is properly and fully resourced . sian gwenllian am: what i would argue on that is that you have to try and forecast . you say it 's difficult to forecast how much this is going to cost , but we have to try and forecast that , and part of the argument for trying to have projections is to show that , perhaps , it 's not going to cost that much , and that would add to the argument that , 'okay , this is going to be fine to do and it 's not going to put too much pressure on us ' . or we need to know that this is going to cost a lot to do it effectively , and therefore you have to make your argument , then , 'well , we ca n't afford that , the money has to come from somewhere else . ' we have to get the costs , surely . huw david: yes , and we will work very closely with welsh government to try and establish those costs as quickly as possible . there will be some costs that we will be able to identify . so , for example , a campaign , an awareness-raising campaign , the marketing , if you like , but some of the other costs will be more difficult to establish in terms of the resource implications for front-line workers . i expressed a view that we need to see some additional investment in some of those programmes that are not targeted directly at families that would be impacted by this but support all families across wales that have different needs , and some of that provision is universal . obviously , my view is the more we put into that , the better . so , there 's no limit to that , but i suspect welsh government will take a very different view to that . but i think that is something where we need to see a commitment to some additional resources . but i do n't put an upper limit on that , because i do n't think there 's an authority in wales , and i do n't think there 's a charity , a police service or a health board in wales that does n't think that we need to do more of that and could offer more of that if the resources were available . sian gwenllian am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've come to the end of our time , so can i thank you all for attending and for answering all of our questions ? it 's been a really useful and informative discussion . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you again , all of you , for coming . huw david: and thank you for your questions and engagement . we welcome the opportunity . alastair birch: thank you very much . sally jenkins: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: okay , item 3 is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the minister for housing and local government—additional information for our inquiry into school funding . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for health and social services on in-patient child and adolescent mental health services provision , and i would like to briefly return to that when we go into private . are members happy to note those ? thank you . item 4 , then : can i propose a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? thank you .

this was a children , young people and education committee , and it was the sixth scrutiny session on the children bill , specifically on abolition of defense of reasonable punishment . to start this meeting , alastair birch shared opinion on why people think the current law was inefficient and unclear , and then sally jenkins listed some evidence that physical punishment was actually harmful . then they had some discussions on how to balance the need for greater clarity around the definition of what constitutes corporal punishment , and the importance of simplicity in the bill . this discussion led to a further discussion on the implementation phase for that nuancing , and its impact on other services . after sharing all of these positive feedbacks in terms of the bill and its intention , they had some discussions on unintended consequences for this bill . then some specific questions on implementation for social services , and its impact on education were proposed and answered . finally , they had some discussions on the importance of awareness raising .

what did the group discuss about the unintended consequences for this bill ? </s> lynne neagle am: okay . good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from suzy davies and jack sargeant and i 'm very pleased to welcome jayne bryant back , who is substituting for jack today . are there any declarations of interest from members , please ? no . okay , thank you . item 2 , then , this morning , is our sixth scrutiny session on the children ( abolition of defence of reasonable punishment ) ( wales ) bill . i 'm very pleased to welcome our witnesses this morning : sally jenkins , who is chair of all wales heads of children ’ s services and is here representing the association of directors of social services ; alastair birch , who is senior system leader for equalities and safeguarding at pembrokeshire county council , who is here representing the association of directors of education wales ; and councillor huw david , who is the welsh local government association spokesperson for health and social care and leader of bridgend county borough council . so , thank you all for attending this morning . we 're very pleased to have you here . we 've got a lot of ground to cover , so , if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions and i 'll start just by asking about your general support for the bill , which is outlined in the evidence . can you just explain why you think the current law is ineffective or unclear ? alastair birch: bore da—bore da , bawb . so , i 'm alastair birch . the statement , really , from adew is that the rights of the child should be educated and achieved , really , under the united nations convention on the rights of the child . the current legislation has been criticised , obviously , by the un concerning the defence of reasonable punishment still being within our current legislation . so , we will always—adew will always—advocate that the rights of the child be upheld , so that is really the fundamental aspect in terms of the statement from adew , and the position of adew is that the rights of the child are fundamental in this process . and there are certain articles— . i know that the rights of children and young persons ( wales ) measure 2011 made sure that article 3 and article 4 , article 12 and article 37 were a focus in terms of making sure that the best interests of the child were put first , that children expressing their views and opinions was a priority . and we know , for safeguarding purposes , that the express opinions of the child and the voice of the child are a fundamental aspect of any safe environment , whether it be a school or college . so , that is—the position is really following that legal position under the rights of children and young persons ( wales ) measure . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . nothing to add at this stage , no ? sally jenkins: i 'll just add , on behalf of adss and on behalf of children 's services and social services more widely , for us , this is not a change in our position , this is not new ; this is a position that we , on behalf of the leaders of social services across wales , have taken over many years , going back 20 , 25 years . i think what we would say is that we really welcome this bill and we welcome the proposed change for the clarity it would bring—the clarity that it would bring for children , for parents and for professionals . i think what we would recognise is that this is a very little-used piece of legislation , so it 's rare , it 's not as if this is something that is going to cast great change across the scene for children and families in wales , but what it will do is represent a change in the reality of how we care and nurture our children . i would echo absolutely what alastair has said in terms of the rights of the child , but equally , in terms of all of our policies in wales in terms of promoting well-being for children , this has to be key . so , for us , this is about a natural progression of change in how we care for our children in wales . for children 's services at the very sharp end of this world , for us , it brings a true clarity . this continues with an ambiguity in how we treat our children and how we care for our children , and the shift for us brings that very much needed clarity . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the committee has already heard different views about whether there 's clear evidence that physical punishment is harmful to children . what evidence does the work of social services provide about whether physical punishment is actually harmful ? sally jenkins: obviously , what you 'll all be aware of is that , as part of the consultation for this bill , the public policy institute did a further piece of research to look at the impact of physical punishment on children . a number of things that we know—we know from across the world that the evidence is that introducing legislation or changing legislation in this way improves children 's positions within their families . what we know is that children themselves , as alastair has already referred to , really find physical punishment demeaning and harmful , and for children it is an emotionally damaging experience . now , there may be disagreement about that , there will be different views on that , but that 's the voice of the child in this debate . the voice of the child is very clear that physical punishment is for them harmful . i think what we would also say is that , in the world that we work in , it 's part of a continuum , and , whilst this is an element of how children are cared for , what we see is a continuum where an acceptance of how we treat children in a particular way perpetuates throughout our work . by changing this , it helps that shift to that absolute recognition that our children must be cared for in a way that is physically safe in all dimensions for them . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've had evidence from the equal protection network that the reasonable punishment defence undermines child protection and fails to protect children because it permits an arbitrary level of violence , which invades children 's physical integrity , making it a potential pathway to more serious physical or sexual abuse , and you did refer to that just now . is there anything you want to add on that ? sally jenkins: i would echo that . i think there is something in this that is about our culture , about how we see our children . it is about how we see our smallest and most vulnerable people , and if it is acceptable it opens the door to those other , more extreme versions of violence , which then complicates the issue for us . this is about clarity , and , whilst there is an argument that this is a small episode for a child , it 's not a small episode for a child , it is a major episode for a child , and i think absolutely , as you said , the potential for it then to lead on , and over gradation and time to increase the risk for children , is clearly there . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the final question from me : your written evidence emphasises the need for greater clarity around the definition of what constitutes corporal punishment , but that contrasts with what we 've been told by the children 's commissioner and the equal protection network , who 've emphasised the importance of simplicity in the bill . how do you respond to that view , and is what you 're calling for essential to be on the face of the bill ? sally jenkins: it 's not essential for it to be on the face of the bill . what we would like to see is discussion within the implementation phase for that nuancing . absolutely agree in terms of simplicity—i think that is really important—and i 've already mentioned clarity . what we do n't want to do is further confuse the position . we know that the legislation in different countries has done that , and there are ways that you can do it , but what we would welcome is an opportunity during the implementation phase for discussion . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . huw david: and , as a principle , obviously we would welcome full involvement , and we know there 's the commitment from welsh government to full involvement in the implementation , because , as with every piece of legislation , implementation is the most important part , and we would want to ensure there is that commitment to a major awareness-raising campaign , and there is that from welsh government , because we need to take families , carers and parents with us on this . also we need to ensure that there is that support available to parents and carers that do sometimes struggle with parenting , and that needs to be a universal offer across wales . if we 're to progress with this , that has to be an option that is offered to every parent in wales . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . sally jenkins: local authorities have already been very heavily involved in terms of looking at this bill and exploring what the issues are and the discussions and looking at what the implications from a local authority perspective will be , as huw describes , both in terms of the awareness raising , early support and intervention and prevention services for families against the backdrop of the current issues that we have in local government , but also awareness raising—because absolutely it is key that families come with us on this journey . this is not an imposition . this is embracing a culture and a value system for our children . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . i 've got some questions now from dawn bowden on the implementation of the bill . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . so , you 've pre-empted me , huw . huw david: right . sorry . i 've got good eyesight ; i ca n't see— . [ laughter . ] dawn bowden am: you 've already said , obviously , that you 're looking towards working with welsh government in terms of its implementation . what 's been your role so far in terms of the implementation of the bill—local authorities generally , now ? have you had a role ? has welsh government been involving you in discussions around the introduction of the bill so far ? huw david: yes . so , obviously we were consulted—a key consultee—but also our officials have worked very closely with welsh government officials to make sure this is implemented successfully , if it is progressed . sally jenkins: our involvement with this , from a social services perspective , goes back over two years , directly in working towards this point , never mind the history in terms of work towards this area . but , very directly in relation to this bill , we were first involved at least two years ago , to recollect , and that was in a series of workshops with other agencies , for example children and family court advisory and support service cymru and the police , and looking in real depth at what the implications would be for us as agencies to look at what the likely trajectory would be in terms of our pathways for referral into our services and what that might mean for us . and then particularly , for example , with cafcass cymru in relation to private law , what the fallout might be , and then what , if anything—and that 's the discussion that we need to have—that could mean for children 's services in particular , given the pressures that we 're already under . so , we 've been in constant , i suppose , involvement in terms of the bill already , as part of the consultation , in terms of the focus groups and in terms of direct work with welsh government officials to take this forward . and we are absolutely committed to continuing with that work . dawn bowden am: okay . you touched there on the pressures that you 're already under , which we fully appreciate , but you also mentioned in answers to lynne neagle earlier on that you welcomed the bill in terms of its clarity . so , are you confident that the bill can be implemented without any major impact on your capacity to deal with it ? sally jenkins: we 've done— . a number of local authorities—my own included , newport city council , has done some work to look at what the likely impact would be and then actually to look at what some of that costing would need to be . further work is needed on that area , and that needs to be carried out during the implementation phase . i think what we 've done is we 've looked internationally at what the impact has been elsewhere when similar legislation has been introduced to try and gauge , but that 's difficult to do in terms of comparable nations and size and also different systems . and obviously our approach in terms of children and pedagogy is very different from some of the nations that have already done this . i would n't like to say one way or the other , because i think , in terms of that culture shift , it could be a double impact on us in terms of increased referrals because of increased awareness , but it could also be , i suppose , as huw alludes to , that , if we 're looking at ensuring greater awareness of preventative services and support services for parents , actually people coming to the fore and asking us for those services as well . so , at this stage , i think what we would want to say is that we continue to be fully involved in the implementation phase , to look at what the cost implications for that could be , and not just for the local authorities but also the police , cafcass cymru , for third sector organisations involved in preventative services . i do n't think any of that should undermine the position in terms of children and their rights within our society . so , a difficult answer , in the sense that— dawn bowden am: no , i understand . what you 're saying is that this is a piece of legislation that , in your view , is a good piece of legislation . it 's setting out to , hopefully , achieve what the purpose of it is and you will deliver what you need to . can i ask you whether , then , you 've also given thought to the impact on—we 've talked about social services , but the impact on other services , like housing , education and so on ? you 're obviously coming at it from slightly different angles in other sections . alastair birch: we are part of the universal service for children , and we very much work in co-operation with the wlga and our social care colleagues , and we 've been part of that consultation . in terms of education , the main changes , or adaptations , would be around training and awareness . and , in terms of the bill , there needs to be the clarity—ambiguity would be bad—in terms of making sure that safeguarding leads within all schools have the right training and support . so , really , that 's the key element there , and then obviously the preventative services for the parents that schools can signpost , and sometimes possibly even host , in terms of being community schools . these positive parenting approaches that— . i have colleagues who have worked in that area for many years and see the benefits in how those positive parenting approaches make a difference to families . dawn bowden am: so , from your point of view , it 's awareness raising , is it ? alastair birch: it 's awareness raising ; it 's making sure that professionals are fully briefed on necessary changes , that there 's very little ambiguity , that we are aware that— . we still have that duty to report whenever there is any safeguarding concern . that 'll still be part of the all-wales child protection procedures . that wo n't change , and that duty is always going to be there for all our professionals . but that awareness raising and training will be the key , and then , obviously , working in co-operation with our colleagues . dawn bowden am: okay , i understand that . have you been given an indication of how long you 've got between royal assent and implementation , and whether you 've thought through any of the key milestones that need to be implemented ? sally jenkins: there 's a group proposed that would be a strategic leadership group in the steering group that we 're part of , which is now laying out what would happen after royal assent if that is given . so , we will work towards that . dawn bowden am: okay . my final question , chair , is about some of the responses we 've had to this committee that say that the state should not get involved in family life—i 'm sure you 've heard those views—unless it 's in the most serious circumstances . to what extent do you think that this bill undermines the existing local authority responsibilities , or do n't you ? huw david: the state 's paramount role is to protect children from harm . that is our legal responsibility , it 's our moral responsibility , and we will discharge that . and there is obviously a view—it 's a view that is enshrined in the un convention on the rights of the child—that physical punishment , physical harm to a child is harm to a child , and we should be preventing that and act to prevent that . that would be the position of the welsh local government association , and we also respect the mandate that members of the national assembly for wales have too . and we believe that children can be raised by parents without recourse to physical punishment , effectively , and we 'd support parents in that . we do not believe that in the 50 nations across the world where such legislation exists that the state is interfering in family life unnecessarily . we believe this action reflects a cultural change , a sea change that 's taken place in wales over the last 30 to 40 years , where the vast majority of parents now say that they do not use it themselves , they do not support it , and we believe this is actually a reflection of what has happened in welsh society . we support assembly members in the view that the natural progression of that is that children 's rights are protected across wales . dawn bowden am: so , i 've got largely positive feedback from you in terms of the bill and its intentions , and so on . do you foresee any unintended consequences for this bill ? huw david: if we implement it carefully , if we implement it with the right resources , then i hope not . i think not . but as with every piece of legislation , it is about the implementation , it is about the cultural change as well , and that 's why i can not overstress the importance of making sure that resources are made available , because our social services departments—children 's social services in particular—are overstretched . they are at breaking point—make no bones about it—and they are dealing with children who are facing serious harm and neglect . we are having record numbers of contacts from police , from teachers , from doctors and , of course , from children themselves who are experiencing that harm and neglect . and obviously , we want to focus our energy and our attention on those children . equally , though , we do n't want to lose sight of those families and children that are experiencing significant problems , but who we want to support through our early intervention and prevention programmes , and that is why it is important that there is investment in those programmes , so that children do not end up in that terrible position where we have to , for their safety , take them from their birth families to protect them . and the reality is , in wales , that we are doing that to more children than we 've done for a long time , and the numbers are growing across wales . and that is only because of the most appalling neglect and abuse , because there is no way that any judge would permit us to act to make a child safe if it was not for that fact , and the facts are there . so , i do n't want that focus to be lost , but , of course , we welcome and understand the need to progress this piece of legislation . dawn bowden am: that rise that you talk about here , is that due to more interventions , greater awareness , more incidents ? i 'm trying to link this to the bill in terms of whether the bill is actually going to give you more work to do in those areas . sally jenkins: on the reasons for the rise in the numbers of looked-after children in wales , which are higher than those in england , and also the numbers of contacts that we have across the local authorities , the work of the care crisis review , which was completed last year ; the work of isabelle trowler , who 's the chief social worker in england ; countless research and reports that have taken place in the last 18 months ; and currently the public law working group , under the auspices of the president of the family court , would all indicate that it 's multifactorial . so , what you have is a range of reasons that have led to the increasing numbers of children becoming looked after across england and wales . what you ca n't do is identify a single reason . there have been headlines that have said , 'is it increased austerity ? ' that is clearly a part of this . is it in wales an increased awareness of adverse childhood experiences and the emphasis of the impact on children of , for example , domestic abuse ? is it because of our understanding of what happens to children in those households ? all of that research would say it 's all of those things . and then , when you also add in changes in our practice with our colleagues in the judiciary , changes in our police service , but also changes in our preventative services , you 've got that whole range of elements . and there is going on across the local authorities and welsh government a huge amount of work to try to address and understand that , and then to ameliorate that . children who need to be in care for safety need to be in care , but what we have to do is get to a point where fewer children come into care and we 're able to protect them , firstly , and secondly where those children who are in care are cared for in a way that delivers the best possible outcomes for them . so , there is no simple answer unfortunately . i think , in terms of this bill and unintended consequences , i agree absolutely with everything that huw has said . my job is around children at that far end , but what this bill does is it brings clarity . it brings a clarity even for those children at that very far end . it takes away even that point of discussion that this could possibly be okay , and i think that 's important to hang on to . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . sorry . alastair birch: one unintended consequences is that i think that there will be an increased focus on the uncrc . and , in terms of children having a discussion around this point , children need to be part of that discussion . it 's something that affects them . and a key aspect of education is the voice of the child . it has become significantly— . it 's changed completely in the last 10 years , and it is one of the key things in terms of us driving improvements . dawn bowden am: would that be something that you would be looking to do in schools ? alastair birch: anything that improves the voice of the child in any educational context is good and it 's very powerful for the children . and it improves their educational experiences , encouraging the opportunities for them to discuss the issues , the adverse childhood experiences that they encounter , which are significant , and it 's our educational professionals that are facing this day-in , day-out . they 've become a very highly trained workforce , they 're ace aware , they 're trauma aware , and anything that focuses , even increases , their professionalism and understanding around a particular point , and also— . so it 's a positive unintended consequence , shall we say , that it could reinvigorate some of the voice of the child discussion within various contexts . dawn bowden am: okay . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: we 've got some specific questions now on implementation for social services , from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . if this bill becomes law , would you encourage members of the public to contact social services departments if they do see a child being smacked ? sally jenkins: we already encourage members of the public to contact social services or the police , depending on the circumstances . interestingly , i 'm picking— janet finch-saunders am: what , if a child is being smacked now ? sally jenkins: yes . if a child is being smacked now , we would ask that people contact . we have a duty to report , as professionals . but if you were walking out , and you saw something happening to a child , in the same way as if you saw something to an adult . janet finch-saunders am: right . sally jenkins: so , i think that the challenge is about—we 've all probably , sadly , witnessed incidents in the doctor 's reception , or in a supermarket , and we 've failed to do something about it . and i think we then walk away and feel pretty guilty about that , realistically , when you see something happening to a child in a particular circumstance . i think we ca n't ignore the fact that a child is being assaulted in those circumstances . janet finch-saunders am: okay . thank you . a campaign opposing this bill , be reasonable wales , have said that 'if the law is changed , the consequences for parents will be considerable . ' it also says , 'anyone accused or convicted of assaulting a child—under the new definition— ' so , i suppose you could argue , a minor tap— 'will be subject to long-term social services involvement in their family and social stigma . ' to what extent is this accurate , and , also , will thresholds for social services intervention change if the bill is enacted ? sally jenkins: there are a number of parts to that . firstly , in terms of long-term social services intervention in a family 's life , i think , for people to be fully aware of the very few numbers of families where we have long-term intervention currently , even where there is what would be perceived as very significant abuse . what we do is we go in for short periods in families ' lives , to support them to work with their strengths , to work with them and their family members . it 's not about us going into families , whatever some of the public perception may be . our aim is to get in and get out . so , in terms of long-term intervention , what we want is for families to find their own solutions . we want families to be able to work with each other , and together , and local community support , and preventative services , to be able to address issues . this is not about punitive approaches from social services . so , that 's the first element . in terms of thresholds for children 's services , we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us . there may be a small number of referrals that come through . what we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle . we recognise that 's likely to happen . because we also know that this is actually quite a rare occurrence currently ; this is not a defence that 's being used with great frequency , this is not something that is happening . and if we look at the data , we know that the incidents of children , and the number of parents who now recognise this as an acceptable form of punishment , has steadily declined over the last 15 to 20 years . so it 's diminishing as it is . janet finch-saunders am: so , on that one then , is there a need for legislation that will—obviously there 'll be resources for the welsh government and there 'll be resources out of hours and things like that—is there a need for legislation if , as you say , natural behaviour and the culture is changing ? let 's be honest , as you 've rightly pointed out , in social services—i know in my own authority—in your own authority , you 're saying that even now you 're working with the police , on systematic failings within the system . sally jenkins: two things . firstly , we want legislation that reflects our society—we do n't want the two to be out of kilter . that would be my first natural response : surely our legislation should be reflective of what our world is . it should n't be that we 've got these rather confusing elements running in parallel , and that continues to perpetuate a lack of clarity and the ambiguity that we currently see . i think the other element is that , again , this is about potentially an accelerating of that awareness and that culture in our society , about how we care for our children . we 've got there naturally ; we 've got there by the change that 's happened in wales over the last 15 to 20 years . what this does is to continue with that change and continue with that awareness and understanding of how we positively , from a strength-based approach , should care for our children , bearing in mind what 's required of us in terms of the uncrc . janet finch-saunders am: okay . are there any comments from anyone else ? huw david: simply to say that i think that , in terms of that clarity for the very vulnerable children out there who are currently being assaulted—seriously assaulted and abused by their parents , which goes on on a daily basis—that is already covered by existing legislation . but at the moment , they do n't know , because they could be being told—and they probably are being told—by their parents that 's it 's okay , that they can smack their child and that that 's acceptable . they do n't know the difference . a young child is not going to know that difference and there is confusion about what is— . and if you asked most parents , and in fact lots of professionals , they would not be able to tell you , and probably most of you would n't be able to tell me exactly where is the threshold— janet finch-saunders am: yes , where 's that line . huw david: well , at the moment , we do n't know where that line is . that vulnerable child , at home , being abused by their parents , does not know where that line is . and they should know where that line is because then they can pick up the phone to childline or they can talk to a professional and ask them where that line is . so , that would be a step forward . i do recognise , though , that what we do n't want to do—and the last thing any of us want to do—is criminalise parents who are bringing up their children . that is why we 're saying there needs to be an emphasis on the support programmes that are available to parents . and to be clear , there is no way that we want long-term involvement in any child 's life , but particularly not in the lives of children who have been smacked by their parents . that is not going to be the result of this legislation , trust me , because we do n't want to be involved in—we have n't got the resources to be involved in children 's lives . the social worker or the police officer—if they become involved , then there would be a proportionate response to that , and there 'll also be a test about whether or not that is progressed . so , if there is an allegation—if this legislation is passed—then that will be looked into and a consideration will be made about whether any action will be taken , and as with any allegation of the law being broken , there would be a proportionate response , as there is now . lynne neagle am: and the next question does relate to the practical response to that . janet . janet finch-saunders am: yes . can you outline the practical ways in which social services ' interaction with parents will change as a result of this proposed law and do you envisage that all referrals to the police will be automatically referred to social services for an assessment ? who 's going to make those decisions ? sally jenkins: that will be part of the implementation phase about that decision making . interestingly , the number of referrals that we currently get from the police that we take absolutely no action on is extraordinary . so , we get a very , very large number of— . it will be happening now ; sitting in the civic centre in newport city council will be a whole host of social workers taking in the public protection notifications from overnight . it 's 10 o'clock , so they 're assessing them now , as we speak . and an awful lot of those will have no further action from the local authority . janet finch-saunders am: but will they be investigated ? sally jenkins: no . there will be no action . there are countless referrals made by agencies to local authorities that we take no action on . janet finch-saunders am: so , if there 's an increase as a result of greater awareness— sally jenkins: what happens is there is a paper assessment of them . there 's a look at what 's happened , who 's involved , what the police have reported , and there 's work being done with the police to improve that . because one of the things that we want to get to is actually where we 're not using huge amounts of time to look at that , but what comes to us is what we act on . so , there is work going on with a number of police authorities to look at how you improve that process . but i suppose , to pick up , each incident will be looked at , each one will be assessed in a way that is proportionate , as huw says , to look at what 's happened and then investigated . lynne neagle am: sally , can you give us a couple of examples of what kind of things might have come in that you would then take no action on ? sally jenkins: we get countless referrals , for example , where there 's been a domestic abuse incident overnight where a child was n't present in the property and we then have n't taken action . it ’ ll be where the level of harm that ’ s perceived to happen to that child is below the threshold for intervention from children 's services . janet finch-saunders am: i ’ m pretty cynical about assessment , because , you know , i have people come in who are benefit claimants where , when they ’ ve been assessed , the whole process has been very flawed and i ’ ve had to fight and fight and fight on their behalf . so— sally jenkins: assessment processes within social— janet finch-saunders am: but if you 're struggling now with those assessments— sally jenkins: assessment processes within social services are as laid out in the social services and well-being ( wales ) act 2014. so , we have within what we carry out , i suppose , that kind of initial look , that look at the information , what else do we know about that family— janet finch-saunders am: and are they qualified people that are doing this ? sally jenkins: yes , absolutely . huw david: and , in fact , in lots of places in wales now , it ’ s a multi-agency assessment . so , it ’ s a joint assessment carried out with police professionals and health professionals . janet finch-saunders am: so , what proportion currently would you not be taking any action on , if a report came in of some domestic abuse where a child had perhaps been smacked ? sally jenkins: if something came in to us where a child had been smacked and there was something clearly there , we would look at it . we would clearly look at it and we would take some sort of action . janet finch-saunders am: even now , before the legislation ? sally jenkins: yes . lynne neagle am: can you ask a final question ? and i 'm going to have to appeal for brief answers , because we 've got a lot of ground to cover . huw david: just very quickly , there may be no action from social services , but it doesn ’ t mean that we don ’ t offer support . so , the expectation is that support is offered in those circumstances from family support services , for example— sally jenkins: or prevention . huw david: —or prevention services . so , we would not say , if we were aware , for example , that there was domestic abuse at a home , ‘ there ’ s no role for children ’ s social services ’ , because there may be an assessment that that child may not be at immediate risk of harm , but we would obviously recognise that there are causes for concern there and we would offer that support . so , just to be clear about that . and that ’ s a process that happens in every social services department in the uk , and it ’ s happened for a very long time , and , in fact , it ’ s reflective of the legislation that you have laid down as assembly members . lynne neagle am: and are those services there , huw ? because i ’ m very acutely aware of the pressure on local government . are the services there ? is there sufficient resource in things like families first ? because what i ’ m hearing on the ground is that eligibility is changing for even those preventative services . huw david: there ’ s not enough of those services , and , obviously—you may have heard me saying this before—i think we need to invest more in those services , and i hope you invest more in the services , because , obviously , prevention is better than cure . and those pressures that sally talked about earlier are pressures that are not going away ; they ’ re only increasing by the day , actually , and i would want us to be able to offer those services now . because that example of a child that perhaps is in a home where there is domestic abuse—we ’ ll probably have another referral off them in a couple of months ’ time , and that could escalate . and what i ’ d rather do is provide support to that family and try and stop that family breaking down so that , in six months , we 're not going back and saying that we 've got to take this child into care because the domestic abuse has worsened and that child is at risk . but those services need additional investment . sally jenkins: i appreciate that time is of the essence , but , just really quickly in relation to that , it ’ s not just social services . so , for example , there are developments like encompass , which is a piece of work that is being rolled out across gwent and across other areas , which is where the police automatically notify the school overnight of an incident , not expecting the school to do anything per se , but to be aware , to be able to offer care for that child . alastair birch: can i add to that ? operation encompass i know in gwent has been operational , and we started it in pembrokeshire 18 months ago . we as a local authority—and it ’ ll be education that will contact the school around the domestic incident happening , and the school as part of that protocol will provide a level of universal service support for that child when they come in , before 9 o ’ clock , so that professionals are aware of the needs of the welfare of that child at that point . so , you know , schools play a key role in the universal service of this and we work very closely with our social care colleagues on that . lynne neagle am: okay . janet , your last question , please . janet finch-saunders am: the bill 's explanatory memorandum refers to an estimate of 274 offences annually where lawful chastisement was used as a defence or considered . it says there is also potential to create extra demand on out-of-hours social services teams due to the time that the offences were reported , and in order to support safeguarding measures . have you assessed how this bill will impact on emergency and out-of-hours local authority services ? sally jenkins: we have considered that , and again i think that 's something that we would very much want to look at as part of implementation . we have out-of-hours provision , we have emergency duty teams already across wales that operate 24/7 . there 's no doubt that they exist and they work very closely with our police colleagues . janet finch-saunders am: are they overstretched at the moment ? sally jenkins: i think in the same way as all of social services is . if we were offered additional resource , we are going to take that . but are they working in a way that protects children day in , day out , and vulnerable adults ? yes , they are , and they will continue to do so . lynne neagle am: thank you very much . we 've got some specific questions now on the impact on education from jayne bryant . jayne bryant am: thank you , chair . good morning . alastair , you 've already mentioned about awareness raising and training , which will be key with educational professionals . how confident are you that teachers and others working in those educational settings will be clear about how to support the implementation of this bill , if enacted ? alastair birch: training requirements for all professionals in education settings are clear . the universal tier 1 training is there , and all local authorities in wales will implement that . in that level of general safeguarding awareness and training , the infinite emphasis is on the duty to report . that will remain the same . the thresholds for social care , that 's their responsibility . that duty to report will always be there . it says in 'keeping learners safe ' , which is the bible in terms of education professionals , that there 's a responsibility on the professional to make that referral and for that universal service . so , the more specialist safeguarding leads within the schools , who have become highly skilled professionals in terms of understanding what might be significant harm—because that 's what we 're talking about—they understand the legalities when a referral needs to be made . there 's always the collation of safeguarding information , where there might be just general concerns about neglect and other areas , which combined would create a picture that there might be significant neglect or significant harm to the child , and then that referral would be made to the child care assessment team or the police . so , that awareness—it needs to be clear for educational professionals that that duty to report is always there . if they believe that that significant harm has happened then that report then goes to the child care assessment team . they will make the judgment on the threshold because they are the professionals . they have the multi-agency awareness of how that meets the threshold . but in terms of education , it 'll be that awareness , making sure that there 's clarity . if there 's anything that professionals need to be trained additionally on , it 'll need to go into 'keeping learners safe ' , which at the moment is being rewritten . so , there would have to be some new possible information there relating to this . but as long as there 's clarity , and once that implementation phase and the discussion has happened , as long as it 's clear for professionals that the duty is always there and they feel a significant harm , then that report will always be there and will always need to be made . it 's making sure—and i 'll echo what my colleague said , huw—that the services are key for families . schools are absolutely fundamental in that support for the families . they have those relationships with the families . i know there was discussion around professional trust . on a daily basis , professionals are working on that trust with parents , because they are the ones that can engage with those families . the family support officers that are working on the ground with highly complex families , with multiple leads and supporting the children—they are fundamental , and investment in that level of support would also help our colleagues as well . so , anything that 's preventative . that is already happening in schools and is effective , and is shown to be effective , and has an evidence base—we 'd always support that that would continue to be invested in . so , that 's really my answer . jayne bryant am: okay . and you were saying about how important trust is as well , but do you think that there 's a risk that those in education settings will have a key role in referring more parents to social services , which some have said could cause potential harm to relationships and cause mistrust ? alastair birch: i do n't think it 's a matter of mistrust—it 's a matter of , you know , if a professional believes , based on the evidence that they have , because they 're working with that child every day , that there is significant harm to that child , they are under a duty to report that to social care . so , part of the work is with families , and most of the referrals we make are with parental consent . that consent is a key element of this , and conversation with our social care colleagues is usually , 'you need to speak to the parents again and have a conversation with them . ' some of the nfas—the ones that do n't get referred at threshold—it will come back to school for , possibly , some support from the family or a team around the family or some other aspect . so , i do n't think— . the trust in the professionals—it 's actually more important that we are seen to be upholding our duties under the all-wales safeguarding procedures . that 's what engenders trust in a professional workforce . jayne bryant am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you very much . we 're going to move on now to some questions about the importance of awareness raising from siân gwenllian . sian gwenllian am: good morning . in looking at your written evidence , you say that we must make it very clear to parents , guardians and the public that this legislation is not trying to criminalise parents , and that is clearly very important for you . how do you think we should do that and who should be doing that work ? sally jenkins: i think that 's really broad . obviously , colleagues in education , colleagues in social care , colleagues in preventative services , but also welsh government and the national assembly , in terms of those drivers in relation to that awareness raising are really , really key . if you look at some of the other campaigns that have been run , notably in relation to violence against women , domestic abuse and sexual violence , and echoing some of those building campaigns that have been done to raise awareness—i think those would be really good models to begin to consider in terms of how this is taken forward with awareness . we also know that there are a number of routes that we can go through in terms of raising awareness . we have existing preventative services , we have all our universal services , we have the regional safeguarding boards and the national safeguarding boards . so , there are a number of avenues that we could then explore . in terms of not wishing to criminalise , i think if we look at the numbers , they are very , very small . and i think one of the things we need to hold on to in this is a sense of proportion about what is or is n't likely to happen once or if this bill ever gets to the point of royal assent—they are small numbers who currently use this defence . it is about that wider issue of awareness raising , and using all of those avenues will help us to do that in the broadest sense . sian gwenllian am: do you , therefore , believe that this needs to be on the face of the bill ? that is , you do n't say this in your evidence . i 'd like to know your opinion on that . scotland is going to be making it a duty for scottish ministers to raise awareness of the impact of the bill . so far , the welsh government says that we do n't need to do that in wales . would n't it make it clearer for you if it was a clear duty on the face of the bill , for example as it was with the human transplantation ( wales ) act 2013 ? there was a duty in that act for ministers to promote transplantation . surely , that awareness raising aspect would be clearer for everyone if it was on the face of the bill . do you have an opinion on that ? huw david: well , welsh government have given that commitment , and i know the welsh government honour every commitment that they make— [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: that 's why i 'm asking . huw david: i do n't know whether that is necessary—i 'm not a legislator . i think that there 's obviously an inherent interest in welsh government raising awareness , because we have to raise awareness effectively for this to be successful , otherwise we will have parents who feel that they 're being criminalised , and that 's the last thing we want . i think it 's worthy of consideration , but , as i say , i 'm not a legislator or a lawyer , so i do n't know what implications that will have long term . but to be fair to welsh government , i think that commitment is one that i 'm sure will be honoured , because welsh government will want to make a success of this bill if it does receive royal assent . sian gwenllian am: okay . but is it clear who would pay for all of that ? huw david: i 've suddenly changed my mind— [ laughter . ] i think it should be a duty on welsh government ministers—absolutely . i do n't need to check with lawyers or legislators . there we go . and that 's the wlga position ; i do n't need to ask the other 21 leaders on that either . [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: would n't it make it clearer if there was a clear duty on the face of the bill that awareness raising had to happen ? it would be clearer , then , for local authorities and people in the front-line services what needs to happen . sally jenkins: i 'm going to echo huw . [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: i thought you might . okay , fine . lynne neagle am: okay . we 're moving on now , then , to the contentious issue of resources and we 've got some questions from hefin . hefin david am: sally jenkins , you said that the purpose of the bill is to bring clarity and to remove what is a little-used defence . is n't this an expensive way of doing that ? sally jenkins: i do n't think so , no . i think that our children deserve the best legislation . hefin david am: but introducing this legislation diverts finances from other areas of children 's services—or does n't ? sally jenkins: well , i would say , no , i do n't think it will divert resources from children 's services . firstly , going back to the comment made , i think , proportionally , this is a very small number of cases . it 's a very small number of existing cases that go through in terms of prosecution , or consideration for prosecution . we know that it 's likely , from some of the work that we 've already done , that it 's not opening floodgates for a sudden sea of referrals to children 's services—that 's not the way this is going to be , because the numbers are not out there because of the changes that have already happened in welsh family life and welsh society . so , i think as part of the implementation phase , we need to have a really clear understanding of the trajectory of those costs and what 's likely to happen over the first six months , 12 months in terms of people 's awareness and understanding and what is referred and how that 's worked . but in terms of a huge number , no , i do n't anticipate it being that . hefin david am: but the costs would n't just be directed to the number of referrals and the number of cases raised , it 's the cost around that , with training of staff , awareness—all those extra additional costs that always come with legislation . is it too much ? is it— ? sally jenkins: no . and i agree with that—that there clearly are—but if you think , many of those things will be aligned with work we are already doing , but it brings a clarity to that work . so , our teachers , our social workers , our health workers , our police officers already get substantial training around child protection , around safeguarding , around adverse childhood experiences and around a trauma-informed approach to children . what this does is it layers a clarity on that . but rather than having a part of that training , which has to deal with this as an aspect—that is no longer there ; it is a clear message for all professions . hefin david am: i fully appreciate that , and in the briefing note you 've given us , you 've outlined the pressures on social services . so , do you think this is another way of getting money into social services ? sally jenkins: if this was a way of getting money into— . i can think of better ways , but i do n't think this is it . no , i mean , i absolutely do not think that . i think this is a clear commitment to the rights of children in wales ; this is not about levering additional resources into children 's services . oh that it was so simple . hefin david am: okay . and , do you think those costs are quantifiable ? sally jenkins: i think we are currently looking at work and are doing work across my own local authority and across two others to look at breaking down those costs , not just for local authority , but also for health , for police and for children and family court advisory and support service cymru . so , there is work currently taking place to try to quantify those costs . hefin david am: okay . i think there was a bit about local authorities that siân— lynne neagle am: okay . siân gwenllian has got a question on resources . sian gwenllian am: yes , just to carry on from that , in a way . the explanatory memorandum that accompanies the bill talks about the unknown costs for different agencies . you mentioned there that you 're doing work around trying to identify some of those costs , but would n't it be useful if the explanatory memorandum did explain more about any unknown or unidentified costs , partly in order to calm some of those fears around that ? giving a title 'unidentified costs'—is that good enough ? sally jenkins: i think , clearly , that is a challenge , and that is work that we are participating in and are committed to completing with welsh government , to look at what those costs are . sian gwenllian am: and then they can be added into this . huw david: i think this is where it would be helpful in the committee 's deliberations and where our concern would be , because the reality is we 're not going to know what the costs are until it 's actually implemented , because we have n't implemented this before . and , therefore , i think there needs to be a commitment that , whatever the costs are , those costs are met because it is legislation that is being led by the national assembly for wales . and whilst we do n't see it as levering in additional resources , we do n't think it should be at the expense of current service provision to vulnerable families in wales , and therefore it 's important that it is properly and fully resourced . sian gwenllian am: what i would argue on that is that you have to try and forecast . you say it 's difficult to forecast how much this is going to cost , but we have to try and forecast that , and part of the argument for trying to have projections is to show that , perhaps , it 's not going to cost that much , and that would add to the argument that , 'okay , this is going to be fine to do and it 's not going to put too much pressure on us ' . or we need to know that this is going to cost a lot to do it effectively , and therefore you have to make your argument , then , 'well , we ca n't afford that , the money has to come from somewhere else . ' we have to get the costs , surely . huw david: yes , and we will work very closely with welsh government to try and establish those costs as quickly as possible . there will be some costs that we will be able to identify . so , for example , a campaign , an awareness-raising campaign , the marketing , if you like , but some of the other costs will be more difficult to establish in terms of the resource implications for front-line workers . i expressed a view that we need to see some additional investment in some of those programmes that are not targeted directly at families that would be impacted by this but support all families across wales that have different needs , and some of that provision is universal . obviously , my view is the more we put into that , the better . so , there 's no limit to that , but i suspect welsh government will take a very different view to that . but i think that is something where we need to see a commitment to some additional resources . but i do n't put an upper limit on that , because i do n't think there 's an authority in wales , and i do n't think there 's a charity , a police service or a health board in wales that does n't think that we need to do more of that and could offer more of that if the resources were available . sian gwenllian am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've come to the end of our time , so can i thank you all for attending and for answering all of our questions ? it 's been a really useful and informative discussion . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you again , all of you , for coming . huw david: and thank you for your questions and engagement . we welcome the opportunity . alastair birch: thank you very much . sally jenkins: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: okay , item 3 is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the minister for housing and local government—additional information for our inquiry into school funding . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for health and social services on in-patient child and adolescent mental health services provision , and i would like to briefly return to that when we go into private . are members happy to note those ? thank you . item 4 , then : can i propose a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? thank you .

huw david thought there were no unintended consequences if the bill was implemented carefully with the right resources . then he talked about the increasing number of looked-after children in wales , and sally jenkins helped to explain the reasons for this . alastair birch thought that there would be an increased focus on the uncrc . in addition , children need to be part of the discussion in terms of children having a discussion around this point , which would affect them . improving the voice of the child in any educational context would be good and powerful for children , which would be a positive unintended consequence , and it could reinvigorate some of the voice of the child discussion within various contexts .

what did huw david say about the unintended consequences for this bill ? </s> lynne neagle am: okay . good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from suzy davies and jack sargeant and i 'm very pleased to welcome jayne bryant back , who is substituting for jack today . are there any declarations of interest from members , please ? no . okay , thank you . item 2 , then , this morning , is our sixth scrutiny session on the children ( abolition of defence of reasonable punishment ) ( wales ) bill . i 'm very pleased to welcome our witnesses this morning : sally jenkins , who is chair of all wales heads of children ’ s services and is here representing the association of directors of social services ; alastair birch , who is senior system leader for equalities and safeguarding at pembrokeshire county council , who is here representing the association of directors of education wales ; and councillor huw david , who is the welsh local government association spokesperson for health and social care and leader of bridgend county borough council . so , thank you all for attending this morning . we 're very pleased to have you here . we 've got a lot of ground to cover , so , if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions and i 'll start just by asking about your general support for the bill , which is outlined in the evidence . can you just explain why you think the current law is ineffective or unclear ? alastair birch: bore da—bore da , bawb . so , i 'm alastair birch . the statement , really , from adew is that the rights of the child should be educated and achieved , really , under the united nations convention on the rights of the child . the current legislation has been criticised , obviously , by the un concerning the defence of reasonable punishment still being within our current legislation . so , we will always—adew will always—advocate that the rights of the child be upheld , so that is really the fundamental aspect in terms of the statement from adew , and the position of adew is that the rights of the child are fundamental in this process . and there are certain articles— . i know that the rights of children and young persons ( wales ) measure 2011 made sure that article 3 and article 4 , article 12 and article 37 were a focus in terms of making sure that the best interests of the child were put first , that children expressing their views and opinions was a priority . and we know , for safeguarding purposes , that the express opinions of the child and the voice of the child are a fundamental aspect of any safe environment , whether it be a school or college . so , that is—the position is really following that legal position under the rights of children and young persons ( wales ) measure . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . nothing to add at this stage , no ? sally jenkins: i 'll just add , on behalf of adss and on behalf of children 's services and social services more widely , for us , this is not a change in our position , this is not new ; this is a position that we , on behalf of the leaders of social services across wales , have taken over many years , going back 20 , 25 years . i think what we would say is that we really welcome this bill and we welcome the proposed change for the clarity it would bring—the clarity that it would bring for children , for parents and for professionals . i think what we would recognise is that this is a very little-used piece of legislation , so it 's rare , it 's not as if this is something that is going to cast great change across the scene for children and families in wales , but what it will do is represent a change in the reality of how we care and nurture our children . i would echo absolutely what alastair has said in terms of the rights of the child , but equally , in terms of all of our policies in wales in terms of promoting well-being for children , this has to be key . so , for us , this is about a natural progression of change in how we care for our children in wales . for children 's services at the very sharp end of this world , for us , it brings a true clarity . this continues with an ambiguity in how we treat our children and how we care for our children , and the shift for us brings that very much needed clarity . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the committee has already heard different views about whether there 's clear evidence that physical punishment is harmful to children . what evidence does the work of social services provide about whether physical punishment is actually harmful ? sally jenkins: obviously , what you 'll all be aware of is that , as part of the consultation for this bill , the public policy institute did a further piece of research to look at the impact of physical punishment on children . a number of things that we know—we know from across the world that the evidence is that introducing legislation or changing legislation in this way improves children 's positions within their families . what we know is that children themselves , as alastair has already referred to , really find physical punishment demeaning and harmful , and for children it is an emotionally damaging experience . now , there may be disagreement about that , there will be different views on that , but that 's the voice of the child in this debate . the voice of the child is very clear that physical punishment is for them harmful . i think what we would also say is that , in the world that we work in , it 's part of a continuum , and , whilst this is an element of how children are cared for , what we see is a continuum where an acceptance of how we treat children in a particular way perpetuates throughout our work . by changing this , it helps that shift to that absolute recognition that our children must be cared for in a way that is physically safe in all dimensions for them . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've had evidence from the equal protection network that the reasonable punishment defence undermines child protection and fails to protect children because it permits an arbitrary level of violence , which invades children 's physical integrity , making it a potential pathway to more serious physical or sexual abuse , and you did refer to that just now . is there anything you want to add on that ? sally jenkins: i would echo that . i think there is something in this that is about our culture , about how we see our children . it is about how we see our smallest and most vulnerable people , and if it is acceptable it opens the door to those other , more extreme versions of violence , which then complicates the issue for us . this is about clarity , and , whilst there is an argument that this is a small episode for a child , it 's not a small episode for a child , it is a major episode for a child , and i think absolutely , as you said , the potential for it then to lead on , and over gradation and time to increase the risk for children , is clearly there . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the final question from me : your written evidence emphasises the need for greater clarity around the definition of what constitutes corporal punishment , but that contrasts with what we 've been told by the children 's commissioner and the equal protection network , who 've emphasised the importance of simplicity in the bill . how do you respond to that view , and is what you 're calling for essential to be on the face of the bill ? sally jenkins: it 's not essential for it to be on the face of the bill . what we would like to see is discussion within the implementation phase for that nuancing . absolutely agree in terms of simplicity—i think that is really important—and i 've already mentioned clarity . what we do n't want to do is further confuse the position . we know that the legislation in different countries has done that , and there are ways that you can do it , but what we would welcome is an opportunity during the implementation phase for discussion . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . huw david: and , as a principle , obviously we would welcome full involvement , and we know there 's the commitment from welsh government to full involvement in the implementation , because , as with every piece of legislation , implementation is the most important part , and we would want to ensure there is that commitment to a major awareness-raising campaign , and there is that from welsh government , because we need to take families , carers and parents with us on this . also we need to ensure that there is that support available to parents and carers that do sometimes struggle with parenting , and that needs to be a universal offer across wales . if we 're to progress with this , that has to be an option that is offered to every parent in wales . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . sally jenkins: local authorities have already been very heavily involved in terms of looking at this bill and exploring what the issues are and the discussions and looking at what the implications from a local authority perspective will be , as huw describes , both in terms of the awareness raising , early support and intervention and prevention services for families against the backdrop of the current issues that we have in local government , but also awareness raising—because absolutely it is key that families come with us on this journey . this is not an imposition . this is embracing a culture and a value system for our children . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . i 've got some questions now from dawn bowden on the implementation of the bill . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . so , you 've pre-empted me , huw . huw david: right . sorry . i 've got good eyesight ; i ca n't see— . [ laughter . ] dawn bowden am: you 've already said , obviously , that you 're looking towards working with welsh government in terms of its implementation . what 's been your role so far in terms of the implementation of the bill—local authorities generally , now ? have you had a role ? has welsh government been involving you in discussions around the introduction of the bill so far ? huw david: yes . so , obviously we were consulted—a key consultee—but also our officials have worked very closely with welsh government officials to make sure this is implemented successfully , if it is progressed . sally jenkins: our involvement with this , from a social services perspective , goes back over two years , directly in working towards this point , never mind the history in terms of work towards this area . but , very directly in relation to this bill , we were first involved at least two years ago , to recollect , and that was in a series of workshops with other agencies , for example children and family court advisory and support service cymru and the police , and looking in real depth at what the implications would be for us as agencies to look at what the likely trajectory would be in terms of our pathways for referral into our services and what that might mean for us . and then particularly , for example , with cafcass cymru in relation to private law , what the fallout might be , and then what , if anything—and that 's the discussion that we need to have—that could mean for children 's services in particular , given the pressures that we 're already under . so , we 've been in constant , i suppose , involvement in terms of the bill already , as part of the consultation , in terms of the focus groups and in terms of direct work with welsh government officials to take this forward . and we are absolutely committed to continuing with that work . dawn bowden am: okay . you touched there on the pressures that you 're already under , which we fully appreciate , but you also mentioned in answers to lynne neagle earlier on that you welcomed the bill in terms of its clarity . so , are you confident that the bill can be implemented without any major impact on your capacity to deal with it ? sally jenkins: we 've done— . a number of local authorities—my own included , newport city council , has done some work to look at what the likely impact would be and then actually to look at what some of that costing would need to be . further work is needed on that area , and that needs to be carried out during the implementation phase . i think what we 've done is we 've looked internationally at what the impact has been elsewhere when similar legislation has been introduced to try and gauge , but that 's difficult to do in terms of comparable nations and size and also different systems . and obviously our approach in terms of children and pedagogy is very different from some of the nations that have already done this . i would n't like to say one way or the other , because i think , in terms of that culture shift , it could be a double impact on us in terms of increased referrals because of increased awareness , but it could also be , i suppose , as huw alludes to , that , if we 're looking at ensuring greater awareness of preventative services and support services for parents , actually people coming to the fore and asking us for those services as well . so , at this stage , i think what we would want to say is that we continue to be fully involved in the implementation phase , to look at what the cost implications for that could be , and not just for the local authorities but also the police , cafcass cymru , for third sector organisations involved in preventative services . i do n't think any of that should undermine the position in terms of children and their rights within our society . so , a difficult answer , in the sense that— dawn bowden am: no , i understand . what you 're saying is that this is a piece of legislation that , in your view , is a good piece of legislation . it 's setting out to , hopefully , achieve what the purpose of it is and you will deliver what you need to . can i ask you whether , then , you 've also given thought to the impact on—we 've talked about social services , but the impact on other services , like housing , education and so on ? you 're obviously coming at it from slightly different angles in other sections . alastair birch: we are part of the universal service for children , and we very much work in co-operation with the wlga and our social care colleagues , and we 've been part of that consultation . in terms of education , the main changes , or adaptations , would be around training and awareness . and , in terms of the bill , there needs to be the clarity—ambiguity would be bad—in terms of making sure that safeguarding leads within all schools have the right training and support . so , really , that 's the key element there , and then obviously the preventative services for the parents that schools can signpost , and sometimes possibly even host , in terms of being community schools . these positive parenting approaches that— . i have colleagues who have worked in that area for many years and see the benefits in how those positive parenting approaches make a difference to families . dawn bowden am: so , from your point of view , it 's awareness raising , is it ? alastair birch: it 's awareness raising ; it 's making sure that professionals are fully briefed on necessary changes , that there 's very little ambiguity , that we are aware that— . we still have that duty to report whenever there is any safeguarding concern . that 'll still be part of the all-wales child protection procedures . that wo n't change , and that duty is always going to be there for all our professionals . but that awareness raising and training will be the key , and then , obviously , working in co-operation with our colleagues . dawn bowden am: okay , i understand that . have you been given an indication of how long you 've got between royal assent and implementation , and whether you 've thought through any of the key milestones that need to be implemented ? sally jenkins: there 's a group proposed that would be a strategic leadership group in the steering group that we 're part of , which is now laying out what would happen after royal assent if that is given . so , we will work towards that . dawn bowden am: okay . my final question , chair , is about some of the responses we 've had to this committee that say that the state should not get involved in family life—i 'm sure you 've heard those views—unless it 's in the most serious circumstances . to what extent do you think that this bill undermines the existing local authority responsibilities , or do n't you ? huw david: the state 's paramount role is to protect children from harm . that is our legal responsibility , it 's our moral responsibility , and we will discharge that . and there is obviously a view—it 's a view that is enshrined in the un convention on the rights of the child—that physical punishment , physical harm to a child is harm to a child , and we should be preventing that and act to prevent that . that would be the position of the welsh local government association , and we also respect the mandate that members of the national assembly for wales have too . and we believe that children can be raised by parents without recourse to physical punishment , effectively , and we 'd support parents in that . we do not believe that in the 50 nations across the world where such legislation exists that the state is interfering in family life unnecessarily . we believe this action reflects a cultural change , a sea change that 's taken place in wales over the last 30 to 40 years , where the vast majority of parents now say that they do not use it themselves , they do not support it , and we believe this is actually a reflection of what has happened in welsh society . we support assembly members in the view that the natural progression of that is that children 's rights are protected across wales . dawn bowden am: so , i 've got largely positive feedback from you in terms of the bill and its intentions , and so on . do you foresee any unintended consequences for this bill ? huw david: if we implement it carefully , if we implement it with the right resources , then i hope not . i think not . but as with every piece of legislation , it is about the implementation , it is about the cultural change as well , and that 's why i can not overstress the importance of making sure that resources are made available , because our social services departments—children 's social services in particular—are overstretched . they are at breaking point—make no bones about it—and they are dealing with children who are facing serious harm and neglect . we are having record numbers of contacts from police , from teachers , from doctors and , of course , from children themselves who are experiencing that harm and neglect . and obviously , we want to focus our energy and our attention on those children . equally , though , we do n't want to lose sight of those families and children that are experiencing significant problems , but who we want to support through our early intervention and prevention programmes , and that is why it is important that there is investment in those programmes , so that children do not end up in that terrible position where we have to , for their safety , take them from their birth families to protect them . and the reality is , in wales , that we are doing that to more children than we 've done for a long time , and the numbers are growing across wales . and that is only because of the most appalling neglect and abuse , because there is no way that any judge would permit us to act to make a child safe if it was not for that fact , and the facts are there . so , i do n't want that focus to be lost , but , of course , we welcome and understand the need to progress this piece of legislation . dawn bowden am: that rise that you talk about here , is that due to more interventions , greater awareness , more incidents ? i 'm trying to link this to the bill in terms of whether the bill is actually going to give you more work to do in those areas . sally jenkins: on the reasons for the rise in the numbers of looked-after children in wales , which are higher than those in england , and also the numbers of contacts that we have across the local authorities , the work of the care crisis review , which was completed last year ; the work of isabelle trowler , who 's the chief social worker in england ; countless research and reports that have taken place in the last 18 months ; and currently the public law working group , under the auspices of the president of the family court , would all indicate that it 's multifactorial . so , what you have is a range of reasons that have led to the increasing numbers of children becoming looked after across england and wales . what you ca n't do is identify a single reason . there have been headlines that have said , 'is it increased austerity ? ' that is clearly a part of this . is it in wales an increased awareness of adverse childhood experiences and the emphasis of the impact on children of , for example , domestic abuse ? is it because of our understanding of what happens to children in those households ? all of that research would say it 's all of those things . and then , when you also add in changes in our practice with our colleagues in the judiciary , changes in our police service , but also changes in our preventative services , you 've got that whole range of elements . and there is going on across the local authorities and welsh government a huge amount of work to try to address and understand that , and then to ameliorate that . children who need to be in care for safety need to be in care , but what we have to do is get to a point where fewer children come into care and we 're able to protect them , firstly , and secondly where those children who are in care are cared for in a way that delivers the best possible outcomes for them . so , there is no simple answer unfortunately . i think , in terms of this bill and unintended consequences , i agree absolutely with everything that huw has said . my job is around children at that far end , but what this bill does is it brings clarity . it brings a clarity even for those children at that very far end . it takes away even that point of discussion that this could possibly be okay , and i think that 's important to hang on to . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . sorry . alastair birch: one unintended consequences is that i think that there will be an increased focus on the uncrc . and , in terms of children having a discussion around this point , children need to be part of that discussion . it 's something that affects them . and a key aspect of education is the voice of the child . it has become significantly— . it 's changed completely in the last 10 years , and it is one of the key things in terms of us driving improvements . dawn bowden am: would that be something that you would be looking to do in schools ? alastair birch: anything that improves the voice of the child in any educational context is good and it 's very powerful for the children . and it improves their educational experiences , encouraging the opportunities for them to discuss the issues , the adverse childhood experiences that they encounter , which are significant , and it 's our educational professionals that are facing this day-in , day-out . they 've become a very highly trained workforce , they 're ace aware , they 're trauma aware , and anything that focuses , even increases , their professionalism and understanding around a particular point , and also— . so it 's a positive unintended consequence , shall we say , that it could reinvigorate some of the voice of the child discussion within various contexts . dawn bowden am: okay . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: we 've got some specific questions now on implementation for social services , from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . if this bill becomes law , would you encourage members of the public to contact social services departments if they do see a child being smacked ? sally jenkins: we already encourage members of the public to contact social services or the police , depending on the circumstances . interestingly , i 'm picking— janet finch-saunders am: what , if a child is being smacked now ? sally jenkins: yes . if a child is being smacked now , we would ask that people contact . we have a duty to report , as professionals . but if you were walking out , and you saw something happening to a child , in the same way as if you saw something to an adult . janet finch-saunders am: right . sally jenkins: so , i think that the challenge is about—we 've all probably , sadly , witnessed incidents in the doctor 's reception , or in a supermarket , and we 've failed to do something about it . and i think we then walk away and feel pretty guilty about that , realistically , when you see something happening to a child in a particular circumstance . i think we ca n't ignore the fact that a child is being assaulted in those circumstances . janet finch-saunders am: okay . thank you . a campaign opposing this bill , be reasonable wales , have said that 'if the law is changed , the consequences for parents will be considerable . ' it also says , 'anyone accused or convicted of assaulting a child—under the new definition— ' so , i suppose you could argue , a minor tap— 'will be subject to long-term social services involvement in their family and social stigma . ' to what extent is this accurate , and , also , will thresholds for social services intervention change if the bill is enacted ? sally jenkins: there are a number of parts to that . firstly , in terms of long-term social services intervention in a family 's life , i think , for people to be fully aware of the very few numbers of families where we have long-term intervention currently , even where there is what would be perceived as very significant abuse . what we do is we go in for short periods in families ' lives , to support them to work with their strengths , to work with them and their family members . it 's not about us going into families , whatever some of the public perception may be . our aim is to get in and get out . so , in terms of long-term intervention , what we want is for families to find their own solutions . we want families to be able to work with each other , and together , and local community support , and preventative services , to be able to address issues . this is not about punitive approaches from social services . so , that 's the first element . in terms of thresholds for children 's services , we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us . there may be a small number of referrals that come through . what we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle . we recognise that 's likely to happen . because we also know that this is actually quite a rare occurrence currently ; this is not a defence that 's being used with great frequency , this is not something that is happening . and if we look at the data , we know that the incidents of children , and the number of parents who now recognise this as an acceptable form of punishment , has steadily declined over the last 15 to 20 years . so it 's diminishing as it is . janet finch-saunders am: so , on that one then , is there a need for legislation that will—obviously there 'll be resources for the welsh government and there 'll be resources out of hours and things like that—is there a need for legislation if , as you say , natural behaviour and the culture is changing ? let 's be honest , as you 've rightly pointed out , in social services—i know in my own authority—in your own authority , you 're saying that even now you 're working with the police , on systematic failings within the system . sally jenkins: two things . firstly , we want legislation that reflects our society—we do n't want the two to be out of kilter . that would be my first natural response : surely our legislation should be reflective of what our world is . it should n't be that we 've got these rather confusing elements running in parallel , and that continues to perpetuate a lack of clarity and the ambiguity that we currently see . i think the other element is that , again , this is about potentially an accelerating of that awareness and that culture in our society , about how we care for our children . we 've got there naturally ; we 've got there by the change that 's happened in wales over the last 15 to 20 years . what this does is to continue with that change and continue with that awareness and understanding of how we positively , from a strength-based approach , should care for our children , bearing in mind what 's required of us in terms of the uncrc . janet finch-saunders am: okay . are there any comments from anyone else ? huw david: simply to say that i think that , in terms of that clarity for the very vulnerable children out there who are currently being assaulted—seriously assaulted and abused by their parents , which goes on on a daily basis—that is already covered by existing legislation . but at the moment , they do n't know , because they could be being told—and they probably are being told—by their parents that 's it 's okay , that they can smack their child and that that 's acceptable . they do n't know the difference . a young child is not going to know that difference and there is confusion about what is— . and if you asked most parents , and in fact lots of professionals , they would not be able to tell you , and probably most of you would n't be able to tell me exactly where is the threshold— janet finch-saunders am: yes , where 's that line . huw david: well , at the moment , we do n't know where that line is . that vulnerable child , at home , being abused by their parents , does not know where that line is . and they should know where that line is because then they can pick up the phone to childline or they can talk to a professional and ask them where that line is . so , that would be a step forward . i do recognise , though , that what we do n't want to do—and the last thing any of us want to do—is criminalise parents who are bringing up their children . that is why we 're saying there needs to be an emphasis on the support programmes that are available to parents . and to be clear , there is no way that we want long-term involvement in any child 's life , but particularly not in the lives of children who have been smacked by their parents . that is not going to be the result of this legislation , trust me , because we do n't want to be involved in—we have n't got the resources to be involved in children 's lives . the social worker or the police officer—if they become involved , then there would be a proportionate response to that , and there 'll also be a test about whether or not that is progressed . so , if there is an allegation—if this legislation is passed—then that will be looked into and a consideration will be made about whether any action will be taken , and as with any allegation of the law being broken , there would be a proportionate response , as there is now . lynne neagle am: and the next question does relate to the practical response to that . janet . janet finch-saunders am: yes . can you outline the practical ways in which social services ' interaction with parents will change as a result of this proposed law and do you envisage that all referrals to the police will be automatically referred to social services for an assessment ? who 's going to make those decisions ? sally jenkins: that will be part of the implementation phase about that decision making . interestingly , the number of referrals that we currently get from the police that we take absolutely no action on is extraordinary . so , we get a very , very large number of— . it will be happening now ; sitting in the civic centre in newport city council will be a whole host of social workers taking in the public protection notifications from overnight . it 's 10 o'clock , so they 're assessing them now , as we speak . and an awful lot of those will have no further action from the local authority . janet finch-saunders am: but will they be investigated ? sally jenkins: no . there will be no action . there are countless referrals made by agencies to local authorities that we take no action on . janet finch-saunders am: so , if there 's an increase as a result of greater awareness— sally jenkins: what happens is there is a paper assessment of them . there 's a look at what 's happened , who 's involved , what the police have reported , and there 's work being done with the police to improve that . because one of the things that we want to get to is actually where we 're not using huge amounts of time to look at that , but what comes to us is what we act on . so , there is work going on with a number of police authorities to look at how you improve that process . but i suppose , to pick up , each incident will be looked at , each one will be assessed in a way that is proportionate , as huw says , to look at what 's happened and then investigated . lynne neagle am: sally , can you give us a couple of examples of what kind of things might have come in that you would then take no action on ? sally jenkins: we get countless referrals , for example , where there 's been a domestic abuse incident overnight where a child was n't present in the property and we then have n't taken action . it ’ ll be where the level of harm that ’ s perceived to happen to that child is below the threshold for intervention from children 's services . janet finch-saunders am: i ’ m pretty cynical about assessment , because , you know , i have people come in who are benefit claimants where , when they ’ ve been assessed , the whole process has been very flawed and i ’ ve had to fight and fight and fight on their behalf . so— sally jenkins: assessment processes within social— janet finch-saunders am: but if you 're struggling now with those assessments— sally jenkins: assessment processes within social services are as laid out in the social services and well-being ( wales ) act 2014. so , we have within what we carry out , i suppose , that kind of initial look , that look at the information , what else do we know about that family— janet finch-saunders am: and are they qualified people that are doing this ? sally jenkins: yes , absolutely . huw david: and , in fact , in lots of places in wales now , it ’ s a multi-agency assessment . so , it ’ s a joint assessment carried out with police professionals and health professionals . janet finch-saunders am: so , what proportion currently would you not be taking any action on , if a report came in of some domestic abuse where a child had perhaps been smacked ? sally jenkins: if something came in to us where a child had been smacked and there was something clearly there , we would look at it . we would clearly look at it and we would take some sort of action . janet finch-saunders am: even now , before the legislation ? sally jenkins: yes . lynne neagle am: can you ask a final question ? and i 'm going to have to appeal for brief answers , because we 've got a lot of ground to cover . huw david: just very quickly , there may be no action from social services , but it doesn ’ t mean that we don ’ t offer support . so , the expectation is that support is offered in those circumstances from family support services , for example— sally jenkins: or prevention . huw david: —or prevention services . so , we would not say , if we were aware , for example , that there was domestic abuse at a home , ‘ there ’ s no role for children ’ s social services ’ , because there may be an assessment that that child may not be at immediate risk of harm , but we would obviously recognise that there are causes for concern there and we would offer that support . so , just to be clear about that . and that ’ s a process that happens in every social services department in the uk , and it ’ s happened for a very long time , and , in fact , it ’ s reflective of the legislation that you have laid down as assembly members . lynne neagle am: and are those services there , huw ? because i ’ m very acutely aware of the pressure on local government . are the services there ? is there sufficient resource in things like families first ? because what i ’ m hearing on the ground is that eligibility is changing for even those preventative services . huw david: there ’ s not enough of those services , and , obviously—you may have heard me saying this before—i think we need to invest more in those services , and i hope you invest more in the services , because , obviously , prevention is better than cure . and those pressures that sally talked about earlier are pressures that are not going away ; they ’ re only increasing by the day , actually , and i would want us to be able to offer those services now . because that example of a child that perhaps is in a home where there is domestic abuse—we ’ ll probably have another referral off them in a couple of months ’ time , and that could escalate . and what i ’ d rather do is provide support to that family and try and stop that family breaking down so that , in six months , we 're not going back and saying that we 've got to take this child into care because the domestic abuse has worsened and that child is at risk . but those services need additional investment . sally jenkins: i appreciate that time is of the essence , but , just really quickly in relation to that , it ’ s not just social services . so , for example , there are developments like encompass , which is a piece of work that is being rolled out across gwent and across other areas , which is where the police automatically notify the school overnight of an incident , not expecting the school to do anything per se , but to be aware , to be able to offer care for that child . alastair birch: can i add to that ? operation encompass i know in gwent has been operational , and we started it in pembrokeshire 18 months ago . we as a local authority—and it ’ ll be education that will contact the school around the domestic incident happening , and the school as part of that protocol will provide a level of universal service support for that child when they come in , before 9 o ’ clock , so that professionals are aware of the needs of the welfare of that child at that point . so , you know , schools play a key role in the universal service of this and we work very closely with our social care colleagues on that . lynne neagle am: okay . janet , your last question , please . janet finch-saunders am: the bill 's explanatory memorandum refers to an estimate of 274 offences annually where lawful chastisement was used as a defence or considered . it says there is also potential to create extra demand on out-of-hours social services teams due to the time that the offences were reported , and in order to support safeguarding measures . have you assessed how this bill will impact on emergency and out-of-hours local authority services ? sally jenkins: we have considered that , and again i think that 's something that we would very much want to look at as part of implementation . we have out-of-hours provision , we have emergency duty teams already across wales that operate 24/7 . there 's no doubt that they exist and they work very closely with our police colleagues . janet finch-saunders am: are they overstretched at the moment ? sally jenkins: i think in the same way as all of social services is . if we were offered additional resource , we are going to take that . but are they working in a way that protects children day in , day out , and vulnerable adults ? yes , they are , and they will continue to do so . lynne neagle am: thank you very much . we 've got some specific questions now on the impact on education from jayne bryant . jayne bryant am: thank you , chair . good morning . alastair , you 've already mentioned about awareness raising and training , which will be key with educational professionals . how confident are you that teachers and others working in those educational settings will be clear about how to support the implementation of this bill , if enacted ? alastair birch: training requirements for all professionals in education settings are clear . the universal tier 1 training is there , and all local authorities in wales will implement that . in that level of general safeguarding awareness and training , the infinite emphasis is on the duty to report . that will remain the same . the thresholds for social care , that 's their responsibility . that duty to report will always be there . it says in 'keeping learners safe ' , which is the bible in terms of education professionals , that there 's a responsibility on the professional to make that referral and for that universal service . so , the more specialist safeguarding leads within the schools , who have become highly skilled professionals in terms of understanding what might be significant harm—because that 's what we 're talking about—they understand the legalities when a referral needs to be made . there 's always the collation of safeguarding information , where there might be just general concerns about neglect and other areas , which combined would create a picture that there might be significant neglect or significant harm to the child , and then that referral would be made to the child care assessment team or the police . so , that awareness—it needs to be clear for educational professionals that that duty to report is always there . if they believe that that significant harm has happened then that report then goes to the child care assessment team . they will make the judgment on the threshold because they are the professionals . they have the multi-agency awareness of how that meets the threshold . but in terms of education , it 'll be that awareness , making sure that there 's clarity . if there 's anything that professionals need to be trained additionally on , it 'll need to go into 'keeping learners safe ' , which at the moment is being rewritten . so , there would have to be some new possible information there relating to this . but as long as there 's clarity , and once that implementation phase and the discussion has happened , as long as it 's clear for professionals that the duty is always there and they feel a significant harm , then that report will always be there and will always need to be made . it 's making sure—and i 'll echo what my colleague said , huw—that the services are key for families . schools are absolutely fundamental in that support for the families . they have those relationships with the families . i know there was discussion around professional trust . on a daily basis , professionals are working on that trust with parents , because they are the ones that can engage with those families . the family support officers that are working on the ground with highly complex families , with multiple leads and supporting the children—they are fundamental , and investment in that level of support would also help our colleagues as well . so , anything that 's preventative . that is already happening in schools and is effective , and is shown to be effective , and has an evidence base—we 'd always support that that would continue to be invested in . so , that 's really my answer . jayne bryant am: okay . and you were saying about how important trust is as well , but do you think that there 's a risk that those in education settings will have a key role in referring more parents to social services , which some have said could cause potential harm to relationships and cause mistrust ? alastair birch: i do n't think it 's a matter of mistrust—it 's a matter of , you know , if a professional believes , based on the evidence that they have , because they 're working with that child every day , that there is significant harm to that child , they are under a duty to report that to social care . so , part of the work is with families , and most of the referrals we make are with parental consent . that consent is a key element of this , and conversation with our social care colleagues is usually , 'you need to speak to the parents again and have a conversation with them . ' some of the nfas—the ones that do n't get referred at threshold—it will come back to school for , possibly , some support from the family or a team around the family or some other aspect . so , i do n't think— . the trust in the professionals—it 's actually more important that we are seen to be upholding our duties under the all-wales safeguarding procedures . that 's what engenders trust in a professional workforce . jayne bryant am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you very much . we 're going to move on now to some questions about the importance of awareness raising from siân gwenllian . sian gwenllian am: good morning . in looking at your written evidence , you say that we must make it very clear to parents , guardians and the public that this legislation is not trying to criminalise parents , and that is clearly very important for you . how do you think we should do that and who should be doing that work ? sally jenkins: i think that 's really broad . obviously , colleagues in education , colleagues in social care , colleagues in preventative services , but also welsh government and the national assembly , in terms of those drivers in relation to that awareness raising are really , really key . if you look at some of the other campaigns that have been run , notably in relation to violence against women , domestic abuse and sexual violence , and echoing some of those building campaigns that have been done to raise awareness—i think those would be really good models to begin to consider in terms of how this is taken forward with awareness . we also know that there are a number of routes that we can go through in terms of raising awareness . we have existing preventative services , we have all our universal services , we have the regional safeguarding boards and the national safeguarding boards . so , there are a number of avenues that we could then explore . in terms of not wishing to criminalise , i think if we look at the numbers , they are very , very small . and i think one of the things we need to hold on to in this is a sense of proportion about what is or is n't likely to happen once or if this bill ever gets to the point of royal assent—they are small numbers who currently use this defence . it is about that wider issue of awareness raising , and using all of those avenues will help us to do that in the broadest sense . sian gwenllian am: do you , therefore , believe that this needs to be on the face of the bill ? that is , you do n't say this in your evidence . i 'd like to know your opinion on that . scotland is going to be making it a duty for scottish ministers to raise awareness of the impact of the bill . so far , the welsh government says that we do n't need to do that in wales . would n't it make it clearer for you if it was a clear duty on the face of the bill , for example as it was with the human transplantation ( wales ) act 2013 ? there was a duty in that act for ministers to promote transplantation . surely , that awareness raising aspect would be clearer for everyone if it was on the face of the bill . do you have an opinion on that ? huw david: well , welsh government have given that commitment , and i know the welsh government honour every commitment that they make— [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: that 's why i 'm asking . huw david: i do n't know whether that is necessary—i 'm not a legislator . i think that there 's obviously an inherent interest in welsh government raising awareness , because we have to raise awareness effectively for this to be successful , otherwise we will have parents who feel that they 're being criminalised , and that 's the last thing we want . i think it 's worthy of consideration , but , as i say , i 'm not a legislator or a lawyer , so i do n't know what implications that will have long term . but to be fair to welsh government , i think that commitment is one that i 'm sure will be honoured , because welsh government will want to make a success of this bill if it does receive royal assent . sian gwenllian am: okay . but is it clear who would pay for all of that ? huw david: i 've suddenly changed my mind— [ laughter . ] i think it should be a duty on welsh government ministers—absolutely . i do n't need to check with lawyers or legislators . there we go . and that 's the wlga position ; i do n't need to ask the other 21 leaders on that either . [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: would n't it make it clearer if there was a clear duty on the face of the bill that awareness raising had to happen ? it would be clearer , then , for local authorities and people in the front-line services what needs to happen . sally jenkins: i 'm going to echo huw . [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: i thought you might . okay , fine . lynne neagle am: okay . we 're moving on now , then , to the contentious issue of resources and we 've got some questions from hefin . hefin david am: sally jenkins , you said that the purpose of the bill is to bring clarity and to remove what is a little-used defence . is n't this an expensive way of doing that ? sally jenkins: i do n't think so , no . i think that our children deserve the best legislation . hefin david am: but introducing this legislation diverts finances from other areas of children 's services—or does n't ? sally jenkins: well , i would say , no , i do n't think it will divert resources from children 's services . firstly , going back to the comment made , i think , proportionally , this is a very small number of cases . it 's a very small number of existing cases that go through in terms of prosecution , or consideration for prosecution . we know that it 's likely , from some of the work that we 've already done , that it 's not opening floodgates for a sudden sea of referrals to children 's services—that 's not the way this is going to be , because the numbers are not out there because of the changes that have already happened in welsh family life and welsh society . so , i think as part of the implementation phase , we need to have a really clear understanding of the trajectory of those costs and what 's likely to happen over the first six months , 12 months in terms of people 's awareness and understanding and what is referred and how that 's worked . but in terms of a huge number , no , i do n't anticipate it being that . hefin david am: but the costs would n't just be directed to the number of referrals and the number of cases raised , it 's the cost around that , with training of staff , awareness—all those extra additional costs that always come with legislation . is it too much ? is it— ? sally jenkins: no . and i agree with that—that there clearly are—but if you think , many of those things will be aligned with work we are already doing , but it brings a clarity to that work . so , our teachers , our social workers , our health workers , our police officers already get substantial training around child protection , around safeguarding , around adverse childhood experiences and around a trauma-informed approach to children . what this does is it layers a clarity on that . but rather than having a part of that training , which has to deal with this as an aspect—that is no longer there ; it is a clear message for all professions . hefin david am: i fully appreciate that , and in the briefing note you 've given us , you 've outlined the pressures on social services . so , do you think this is another way of getting money into social services ? sally jenkins: if this was a way of getting money into— . i can think of better ways , but i do n't think this is it . no , i mean , i absolutely do not think that . i think this is a clear commitment to the rights of children in wales ; this is not about levering additional resources into children 's services . oh that it was so simple . hefin david am: okay . and , do you think those costs are quantifiable ? sally jenkins: i think we are currently looking at work and are doing work across my own local authority and across two others to look at breaking down those costs , not just for local authority , but also for health , for police and for children and family court advisory and support service cymru . so , there is work currently taking place to try to quantify those costs . hefin david am: okay . i think there was a bit about local authorities that siân— lynne neagle am: okay . siân gwenllian has got a question on resources . sian gwenllian am: yes , just to carry on from that , in a way . the explanatory memorandum that accompanies the bill talks about the unknown costs for different agencies . you mentioned there that you 're doing work around trying to identify some of those costs , but would n't it be useful if the explanatory memorandum did explain more about any unknown or unidentified costs , partly in order to calm some of those fears around that ? giving a title 'unidentified costs'—is that good enough ? sally jenkins: i think , clearly , that is a challenge , and that is work that we are participating in and are committed to completing with welsh government , to look at what those costs are . sian gwenllian am: and then they can be added into this . huw david: i think this is where it would be helpful in the committee 's deliberations and where our concern would be , because the reality is we 're not going to know what the costs are until it 's actually implemented , because we have n't implemented this before . and , therefore , i think there needs to be a commitment that , whatever the costs are , those costs are met because it is legislation that is being led by the national assembly for wales . and whilst we do n't see it as levering in additional resources , we do n't think it should be at the expense of current service provision to vulnerable families in wales , and therefore it 's important that it is properly and fully resourced . sian gwenllian am: what i would argue on that is that you have to try and forecast . you say it 's difficult to forecast how much this is going to cost , but we have to try and forecast that , and part of the argument for trying to have projections is to show that , perhaps , it 's not going to cost that much , and that would add to the argument that , 'okay , this is going to be fine to do and it 's not going to put too much pressure on us ' . or we need to know that this is going to cost a lot to do it effectively , and therefore you have to make your argument , then , 'well , we ca n't afford that , the money has to come from somewhere else . ' we have to get the costs , surely . huw david: yes , and we will work very closely with welsh government to try and establish those costs as quickly as possible . there will be some costs that we will be able to identify . so , for example , a campaign , an awareness-raising campaign , the marketing , if you like , but some of the other costs will be more difficult to establish in terms of the resource implications for front-line workers . i expressed a view that we need to see some additional investment in some of those programmes that are not targeted directly at families that would be impacted by this but support all families across wales that have different needs , and some of that provision is universal . obviously , my view is the more we put into that , the better . so , there 's no limit to that , but i suspect welsh government will take a very different view to that . but i think that is something where we need to see a commitment to some additional resources . but i do n't put an upper limit on that , because i do n't think there 's an authority in wales , and i do n't think there 's a charity , a police service or a health board in wales that does n't think that we need to do more of that and could offer more of that if the resources were available . sian gwenllian am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've come to the end of our time , so can i thank you all for attending and for answering all of our questions ? it 's been a really useful and informative discussion . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you again , all of you , for coming . huw david: and thank you for your questions and engagement . we welcome the opportunity . alastair birch: thank you very much . sally jenkins: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: okay , item 3 is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the minister for housing and local government—additional information for our inquiry into school funding . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for health and social services on in-patient child and adolescent mental health services provision , and i would like to briefly return to that when we go into private . are members happy to note those ? thank you . item 4 , then : can i propose a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? thank you .

huw david thought if this bill was implemented carefully with the right resources , there might not be unintended consequences . however , for every piece of legislation , it would be about the implementation and the cultural change . currently , the number of looked-after children in wales were growing a lot , and this was because of the most appalling neglect and abuse . huw david did not want this focus to be lost .

what did people say about what caused the raising of the number of the looked-after children when talking about the unintended consequences ? </s> lynne neagle am: okay . good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from suzy davies and jack sargeant and i 'm very pleased to welcome jayne bryant back , who is substituting for jack today . are there any declarations of interest from members , please ? no . okay , thank you . item 2 , then , this morning , is our sixth scrutiny session on the children ( abolition of defence of reasonable punishment ) ( wales ) bill . i 'm very pleased to welcome our witnesses this morning : sally jenkins , who is chair of all wales heads of children ’ s services and is here representing the association of directors of social services ; alastair birch , who is senior system leader for equalities and safeguarding at pembrokeshire county council , who is here representing the association of directors of education wales ; and councillor huw david , who is the welsh local government association spokesperson for health and social care and leader of bridgend county borough council . so , thank you all for attending this morning . we 're very pleased to have you here . we 've got a lot of ground to cover , so , if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions and i 'll start just by asking about your general support for the bill , which is outlined in the evidence . can you just explain why you think the current law is ineffective or unclear ? alastair birch: bore da—bore da , bawb . so , i 'm alastair birch . the statement , really , from adew is that the rights of the child should be educated and achieved , really , under the united nations convention on the rights of the child . the current legislation has been criticised , obviously , by the un concerning the defence of reasonable punishment still being within our current legislation . so , we will always—adew will always—advocate that the rights of the child be upheld , so that is really the fundamental aspect in terms of the statement from adew , and the position of adew is that the rights of the child are fundamental in this process . and there are certain articles— . i know that the rights of children and young persons ( wales ) measure 2011 made sure that article 3 and article 4 , article 12 and article 37 were a focus in terms of making sure that the best interests of the child were put first , that children expressing their views and opinions was a priority . and we know , for safeguarding purposes , that the express opinions of the child and the voice of the child are a fundamental aspect of any safe environment , whether it be a school or college . so , that is—the position is really following that legal position under the rights of children and young persons ( wales ) measure . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . nothing to add at this stage , no ? sally jenkins: i 'll just add , on behalf of adss and on behalf of children 's services and social services more widely , for us , this is not a change in our position , this is not new ; this is a position that we , on behalf of the leaders of social services across wales , have taken over many years , going back 20 , 25 years . i think what we would say is that we really welcome this bill and we welcome the proposed change for the clarity it would bring—the clarity that it would bring for children , for parents and for professionals . i think what we would recognise is that this is a very little-used piece of legislation , so it 's rare , it 's not as if this is something that is going to cast great change across the scene for children and families in wales , but what it will do is represent a change in the reality of how we care and nurture our children . i would echo absolutely what alastair has said in terms of the rights of the child , but equally , in terms of all of our policies in wales in terms of promoting well-being for children , this has to be key . so , for us , this is about a natural progression of change in how we care for our children in wales . for children 's services at the very sharp end of this world , for us , it brings a true clarity . this continues with an ambiguity in how we treat our children and how we care for our children , and the shift for us brings that very much needed clarity . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the committee has already heard different views about whether there 's clear evidence that physical punishment is harmful to children . what evidence does the work of social services provide about whether physical punishment is actually harmful ? sally jenkins: obviously , what you 'll all be aware of is that , as part of the consultation for this bill , the public policy institute did a further piece of research to look at the impact of physical punishment on children . a number of things that we know—we know from across the world that the evidence is that introducing legislation or changing legislation in this way improves children 's positions within their families . what we know is that children themselves , as alastair has already referred to , really find physical punishment demeaning and harmful , and for children it is an emotionally damaging experience . now , there may be disagreement about that , there will be different views on that , but that 's the voice of the child in this debate . the voice of the child is very clear that physical punishment is for them harmful . i think what we would also say is that , in the world that we work in , it 's part of a continuum , and , whilst this is an element of how children are cared for , what we see is a continuum where an acceptance of how we treat children in a particular way perpetuates throughout our work . by changing this , it helps that shift to that absolute recognition that our children must be cared for in a way that is physically safe in all dimensions for them . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've had evidence from the equal protection network that the reasonable punishment defence undermines child protection and fails to protect children because it permits an arbitrary level of violence , which invades children 's physical integrity , making it a potential pathway to more serious physical or sexual abuse , and you did refer to that just now . is there anything you want to add on that ? sally jenkins: i would echo that . i think there is something in this that is about our culture , about how we see our children . it is about how we see our smallest and most vulnerable people , and if it is acceptable it opens the door to those other , more extreme versions of violence , which then complicates the issue for us . this is about clarity , and , whilst there is an argument that this is a small episode for a child , it 's not a small episode for a child , it is a major episode for a child , and i think absolutely , as you said , the potential for it then to lead on , and over gradation and time to increase the risk for children , is clearly there . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the final question from me : your written evidence emphasises the need for greater clarity around the definition of what constitutes corporal punishment , but that contrasts with what we 've been told by the children 's commissioner and the equal protection network , who 've emphasised the importance of simplicity in the bill . how do you respond to that view , and is what you 're calling for essential to be on the face of the bill ? sally jenkins: it 's not essential for it to be on the face of the bill . what we would like to see is discussion within the implementation phase for that nuancing . absolutely agree in terms of simplicity—i think that is really important—and i 've already mentioned clarity . what we do n't want to do is further confuse the position . we know that the legislation in different countries has done that , and there are ways that you can do it , but what we would welcome is an opportunity during the implementation phase for discussion . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . huw david: and , as a principle , obviously we would welcome full involvement , and we know there 's the commitment from welsh government to full involvement in the implementation , because , as with every piece of legislation , implementation is the most important part , and we would want to ensure there is that commitment to a major awareness-raising campaign , and there is that from welsh government , because we need to take families , carers and parents with us on this . also we need to ensure that there is that support available to parents and carers that do sometimes struggle with parenting , and that needs to be a universal offer across wales . if we 're to progress with this , that has to be an option that is offered to every parent in wales . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . sally jenkins: local authorities have already been very heavily involved in terms of looking at this bill and exploring what the issues are and the discussions and looking at what the implications from a local authority perspective will be , as huw describes , both in terms of the awareness raising , early support and intervention and prevention services for families against the backdrop of the current issues that we have in local government , but also awareness raising—because absolutely it is key that families come with us on this journey . this is not an imposition . this is embracing a culture and a value system for our children . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . i 've got some questions now from dawn bowden on the implementation of the bill . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . so , you 've pre-empted me , huw . huw david: right . sorry . i 've got good eyesight ; i ca n't see— . [ laughter . ] dawn bowden am: you 've already said , obviously , that you 're looking towards working with welsh government in terms of its implementation . what 's been your role so far in terms of the implementation of the bill—local authorities generally , now ? have you had a role ? has welsh government been involving you in discussions around the introduction of the bill so far ? huw david: yes . so , obviously we were consulted—a key consultee—but also our officials have worked very closely with welsh government officials to make sure this is implemented successfully , if it is progressed . sally jenkins: our involvement with this , from a social services perspective , goes back over two years , directly in working towards this point , never mind the history in terms of work towards this area . but , very directly in relation to this bill , we were first involved at least two years ago , to recollect , and that was in a series of workshops with other agencies , for example children and family court advisory and support service cymru and the police , and looking in real depth at what the implications would be for us as agencies to look at what the likely trajectory would be in terms of our pathways for referral into our services and what that might mean for us . and then particularly , for example , with cafcass cymru in relation to private law , what the fallout might be , and then what , if anything—and that 's the discussion that we need to have—that could mean for children 's services in particular , given the pressures that we 're already under . so , we 've been in constant , i suppose , involvement in terms of the bill already , as part of the consultation , in terms of the focus groups and in terms of direct work with welsh government officials to take this forward . and we are absolutely committed to continuing with that work . dawn bowden am: okay . you touched there on the pressures that you 're already under , which we fully appreciate , but you also mentioned in answers to lynne neagle earlier on that you welcomed the bill in terms of its clarity . so , are you confident that the bill can be implemented without any major impact on your capacity to deal with it ? sally jenkins: we 've done— . a number of local authorities—my own included , newport city council , has done some work to look at what the likely impact would be and then actually to look at what some of that costing would need to be . further work is needed on that area , and that needs to be carried out during the implementation phase . i think what we 've done is we 've looked internationally at what the impact has been elsewhere when similar legislation has been introduced to try and gauge , but that 's difficult to do in terms of comparable nations and size and also different systems . and obviously our approach in terms of children and pedagogy is very different from some of the nations that have already done this . i would n't like to say one way or the other , because i think , in terms of that culture shift , it could be a double impact on us in terms of increased referrals because of increased awareness , but it could also be , i suppose , as huw alludes to , that , if we 're looking at ensuring greater awareness of preventative services and support services for parents , actually people coming to the fore and asking us for those services as well . so , at this stage , i think what we would want to say is that we continue to be fully involved in the implementation phase , to look at what the cost implications for that could be , and not just for the local authorities but also the police , cafcass cymru , for third sector organisations involved in preventative services . i do n't think any of that should undermine the position in terms of children and their rights within our society . so , a difficult answer , in the sense that— dawn bowden am: no , i understand . what you 're saying is that this is a piece of legislation that , in your view , is a good piece of legislation . it 's setting out to , hopefully , achieve what the purpose of it is and you will deliver what you need to . can i ask you whether , then , you 've also given thought to the impact on—we 've talked about social services , but the impact on other services , like housing , education and so on ? you 're obviously coming at it from slightly different angles in other sections . alastair birch: we are part of the universal service for children , and we very much work in co-operation with the wlga and our social care colleagues , and we 've been part of that consultation . in terms of education , the main changes , or adaptations , would be around training and awareness . and , in terms of the bill , there needs to be the clarity—ambiguity would be bad—in terms of making sure that safeguarding leads within all schools have the right training and support . so , really , that 's the key element there , and then obviously the preventative services for the parents that schools can signpost , and sometimes possibly even host , in terms of being community schools . these positive parenting approaches that— . i have colleagues who have worked in that area for many years and see the benefits in how those positive parenting approaches make a difference to families . dawn bowden am: so , from your point of view , it 's awareness raising , is it ? alastair birch: it 's awareness raising ; it 's making sure that professionals are fully briefed on necessary changes , that there 's very little ambiguity , that we are aware that— . we still have that duty to report whenever there is any safeguarding concern . that 'll still be part of the all-wales child protection procedures . that wo n't change , and that duty is always going to be there for all our professionals . but that awareness raising and training will be the key , and then , obviously , working in co-operation with our colleagues . dawn bowden am: okay , i understand that . have you been given an indication of how long you 've got between royal assent and implementation , and whether you 've thought through any of the key milestones that need to be implemented ? sally jenkins: there 's a group proposed that would be a strategic leadership group in the steering group that we 're part of , which is now laying out what would happen after royal assent if that is given . so , we will work towards that . dawn bowden am: okay . my final question , chair , is about some of the responses we 've had to this committee that say that the state should not get involved in family life—i 'm sure you 've heard those views—unless it 's in the most serious circumstances . to what extent do you think that this bill undermines the existing local authority responsibilities , or do n't you ? huw david: the state 's paramount role is to protect children from harm . that is our legal responsibility , it 's our moral responsibility , and we will discharge that . and there is obviously a view—it 's a view that is enshrined in the un convention on the rights of the child—that physical punishment , physical harm to a child is harm to a child , and we should be preventing that and act to prevent that . that would be the position of the welsh local government association , and we also respect the mandate that members of the national assembly for wales have too . and we believe that children can be raised by parents without recourse to physical punishment , effectively , and we 'd support parents in that . we do not believe that in the 50 nations across the world where such legislation exists that the state is interfering in family life unnecessarily . we believe this action reflects a cultural change , a sea change that 's taken place in wales over the last 30 to 40 years , where the vast majority of parents now say that they do not use it themselves , they do not support it , and we believe this is actually a reflection of what has happened in welsh society . we support assembly members in the view that the natural progression of that is that children 's rights are protected across wales . dawn bowden am: so , i 've got largely positive feedback from you in terms of the bill and its intentions , and so on . do you foresee any unintended consequences for this bill ? huw david: if we implement it carefully , if we implement it with the right resources , then i hope not . i think not . but as with every piece of legislation , it is about the implementation , it is about the cultural change as well , and that 's why i can not overstress the importance of making sure that resources are made available , because our social services departments—children 's social services in particular—are overstretched . they are at breaking point—make no bones about it—and they are dealing with children who are facing serious harm and neglect . we are having record numbers of contacts from police , from teachers , from doctors and , of course , from children themselves who are experiencing that harm and neglect . and obviously , we want to focus our energy and our attention on those children . equally , though , we do n't want to lose sight of those families and children that are experiencing significant problems , but who we want to support through our early intervention and prevention programmes , and that is why it is important that there is investment in those programmes , so that children do not end up in that terrible position where we have to , for their safety , take them from their birth families to protect them . and the reality is , in wales , that we are doing that to more children than we 've done for a long time , and the numbers are growing across wales . and that is only because of the most appalling neglect and abuse , because there is no way that any judge would permit us to act to make a child safe if it was not for that fact , and the facts are there . so , i do n't want that focus to be lost , but , of course , we welcome and understand the need to progress this piece of legislation . dawn bowden am: that rise that you talk about here , is that due to more interventions , greater awareness , more incidents ? i 'm trying to link this to the bill in terms of whether the bill is actually going to give you more work to do in those areas . sally jenkins: on the reasons for the rise in the numbers of looked-after children in wales , which are higher than those in england , and also the numbers of contacts that we have across the local authorities , the work of the care crisis review , which was completed last year ; the work of isabelle trowler , who 's the chief social worker in england ; countless research and reports that have taken place in the last 18 months ; and currently the public law working group , under the auspices of the president of the family court , would all indicate that it 's multifactorial . so , what you have is a range of reasons that have led to the increasing numbers of children becoming looked after across england and wales . what you ca n't do is identify a single reason . there have been headlines that have said , 'is it increased austerity ? ' that is clearly a part of this . is it in wales an increased awareness of adverse childhood experiences and the emphasis of the impact on children of , for example , domestic abuse ? is it because of our understanding of what happens to children in those households ? all of that research would say it 's all of those things . and then , when you also add in changes in our practice with our colleagues in the judiciary , changes in our police service , but also changes in our preventative services , you 've got that whole range of elements . and there is going on across the local authorities and welsh government a huge amount of work to try to address and understand that , and then to ameliorate that . children who need to be in care for safety need to be in care , but what we have to do is get to a point where fewer children come into care and we 're able to protect them , firstly , and secondly where those children who are in care are cared for in a way that delivers the best possible outcomes for them . so , there is no simple answer unfortunately . i think , in terms of this bill and unintended consequences , i agree absolutely with everything that huw has said . my job is around children at that far end , but what this bill does is it brings clarity . it brings a clarity even for those children at that very far end . it takes away even that point of discussion that this could possibly be okay , and i think that 's important to hang on to . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . sorry . alastair birch: one unintended consequences is that i think that there will be an increased focus on the uncrc . and , in terms of children having a discussion around this point , children need to be part of that discussion . it 's something that affects them . and a key aspect of education is the voice of the child . it has become significantly— . it 's changed completely in the last 10 years , and it is one of the key things in terms of us driving improvements . dawn bowden am: would that be something that you would be looking to do in schools ? alastair birch: anything that improves the voice of the child in any educational context is good and it 's very powerful for the children . and it improves their educational experiences , encouraging the opportunities for them to discuss the issues , the adverse childhood experiences that they encounter , which are significant , and it 's our educational professionals that are facing this day-in , day-out . they 've become a very highly trained workforce , they 're ace aware , they 're trauma aware , and anything that focuses , even increases , their professionalism and understanding around a particular point , and also— . so it 's a positive unintended consequence , shall we say , that it could reinvigorate some of the voice of the child discussion within various contexts . dawn bowden am: okay . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: we 've got some specific questions now on implementation for social services , from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . if this bill becomes law , would you encourage members of the public to contact social services departments if they do see a child being smacked ? sally jenkins: we already encourage members of the public to contact social services or the police , depending on the circumstances . interestingly , i 'm picking— janet finch-saunders am: what , if a child is being smacked now ? sally jenkins: yes . if a child is being smacked now , we would ask that people contact . we have a duty to report , as professionals . but if you were walking out , and you saw something happening to a child , in the same way as if you saw something to an adult . janet finch-saunders am: right . sally jenkins: so , i think that the challenge is about—we 've all probably , sadly , witnessed incidents in the doctor 's reception , or in a supermarket , and we 've failed to do something about it . and i think we then walk away and feel pretty guilty about that , realistically , when you see something happening to a child in a particular circumstance . i think we ca n't ignore the fact that a child is being assaulted in those circumstances . janet finch-saunders am: okay . thank you . a campaign opposing this bill , be reasonable wales , have said that 'if the law is changed , the consequences for parents will be considerable . ' it also says , 'anyone accused or convicted of assaulting a child—under the new definition— ' so , i suppose you could argue , a minor tap— 'will be subject to long-term social services involvement in their family and social stigma . ' to what extent is this accurate , and , also , will thresholds for social services intervention change if the bill is enacted ? sally jenkins: there are a number of parts to that . firstly , in terms of long-term social services intervention in a family 's life , i think , for people to be fully aware of the very few numbers of families where we have long-term intervention currently , even where there is what would be perceived as very significant abuse . what we do is we go in for short periods in families ' lives , to support them to work with their strengths , to work with them and their family members . it 's not about us going into families , whatever some of the public perception may be . our aim is to get in and get out . so , in terms of long-term intervention , what we want is for families to find their own solutions . we want families to be able to work with each other , and together , and local community support , and preventative services , to be able to address issues . this is not about punitive approaches from social services . so , that 's the first element . in terms of thresholds for children 's services , we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us . there may be a small number of referrals that come through . what we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle . we recognise that 's likely to happen . because we also know that this is actually quite a rare occurrence currently ; this is not a defence that 's being used with great frequency , this is not something that is happening . and if we look at the data , we know that the incidents of children , and the number of parents who now recognise this as an acceptable form of punishment , has steadily declined over the last 15 to 20 years . so it 's diminishing as it is . janet finch-saunders am: so , on that one then , is there a need for legislation that will—obviously there 'll be resources for the welsh government and there 'll be resources out of hours and things like that—is there a need for legislation if , as you say , natural behaviour and the culture is changing ? let 's be honest , as you 've rightly pointed out , in social services—i know in my own authority—in your own authority , you 're saying that even now you 're working with the police , on systematic failings within the system . sally jenkins: two things . firstly , we want legislation that reflects our society—we do n't want the two to be out of kilter . that would be my first natural response : surely our legislation should be reflective of what our world is . it should n't be that we 've got these rather confusing elements running in parallel , and that continues to perpetuate a lack of clarity and the ambiguity that we currently see . i think the other element is that , again , this is about potentially an accelerating of that awareness and that culture in our society , about how we care for our children . we 've got there naturally ; we 've got there by the change that 's happened in wales over the last 15 to 20 years . what this does is to continue with that change and continue with that awareness and understanding of how we positively , from a strength-based approach , should care for our children , bearing in mind what 's required of us in terms of the uncrc . janet finch-saunders am: okay . are there any comments from anyone else ? huw david: simply to say that i think that , in terms of that clarity for the very vulnerable children out there who are currently being assaulted—seriously assaulted and abused by their parents , which goes on on a daily basis—that is already covered by existing legislation . but at the moment , they do n't know , because they could be being told—and they probably are being told—by their parents that 's it 's okay , that they can smack their child and that that 's acceptable . they do n't know the difference . a young child is not going to know that difference and there is confusion about what is— . and if you asked most parents , and in fact lots of professionals , they would not be able to tell you , and probably most of you would n't be able to tell me exactly where is the threshold— janet finch-saunders am: yes , where 's that line . huw david: well , at the moment , we do n't know where that line is . that vulnerable child , at home , being abused by their parents , does not know where that line is . and they should know where that line is because then they can pick up the phone to childline or they can talk to a professional and ask them where that line is . so , that would be a step forward . i do recognise , though , that what we do n't want to do—and the last thing any of us want to do—is criminalise parents who are bringing up their children . that is why we 're saying there needs to be an emphasis on the support programmes that are available to parents . and to be clear , there is no way that we want long-term involvement in any child 's life , but particularly not in the lives of children who have been smacked by their parents . that is not going to be the result of this legislation , trust me , because we do n't want to be involved in—we have n't got the resources to be involved in children 's lives . the social worker or the police officer—if they become involved , then there would be a proportionate response to that , and there 'll also be a test about whether or not that is progressed . so , if there is an allegation—if this legislation is passed—then that will be looked into and a consideration will be made about whether any action will be taken , and as with any allegation of the law being broken , there would be a proportionate response , as there is now . lynne neagle am: and the next question does relate to the practical response to that . janet . janet finch-saunders am: yes . can you outline the practical ways in which social services ' interaction with parents will change as a result of this proposed law and do you envisage that all referrals to the police will be automatically referred to social services for an assessment ? who 's going to make those decisions ? sally jenkins: that will be part of the implementation phase about that decision making . interestingly , the number of referrals that we currently get from the police that we take absolutely no action on is extraordinary . so , we get a very , very large number of— . it will be happening now ; sitting in the civic centre in newport city council will be a whole host of social workers taking in the public protection notifications from overnight . it 's 10 o'clock , so they 're assessing them now , as we speak . and an awful lot of those will have no further action from the local authority . janet finch-saunders am: but will they be investigated ? sally jenkins: no . there will be no action . there are countless referrals made by agencies to local authorities that we take no action on . janet finch-saunders am: so , if there 's an increase as a result of greater awareness— sally jenkins: what happens is there is a paper assessment of them . there 's a look at what 's happened , who 's involved , what the police have reported , and there 's work being done with the police to improve that . because one of the things that we want to get to is actually where we 're not using huge amounts of time to look at that , but what comes to us is what we act on . so , there is work going on with a number of police authorities to look at how you improve that process . but i suppose , to pick up , each incident will be looked at , each one will be assessed in a way that is proportionate , as huw says , to look at what 's happened and then investigated . lynne neagle am: sally , can you give us a couple of examples of what kind of things might have come in that you would then take no action on ? sally jenkins: we get countless referrals , for example , where there 's been a domestic abuse incident overnight where a child was n't present in the property and we then have n't taken action . it ’ ll be where the level of harm that ’ s perceived to happen to that child is below the threshold for intervention from children 's services . janet finch-saunders am: i ’ m pretty cynical about assessment , because , you know , i have people come in who are benefit claimants where , when they ’ ve been assessed , the whole process has been very flawed and i ’ ve had to fight and fight and fight on their behalf . so— sally jenkins: assessment processes within social— janet finch-saunders am: but if you 're struggling now with those assessments— sally jenkins: assessment processes within social services are as laid out in the social services and well-being ( wales ) act 2014. so , we have within what we carry out , i suppose , that kind of initial look , that look at the information , what else do we know about that family— janet finch-saunders am: and are they qualified people that are doing this ? sally jenkins: yes , absolutely . huw david: and , in fact , in lots of places in wales now , it ’ s a multi-agency assessment . so , it ’ s a joint assessment carried out with police professionals and health professionals . janet finch-saunders am: so , what proportion currently would you not be taking any action on , if a report came in of some domestic abuse where a child had perhaps been smacked ? sally jenkins: if something came in to us where a child had been smacked and there was something clearly there , we would look at it . we would clearly look at it and we would take some sort of action . janet finch-saunders am: even now , before the legislation ? sally jenkins: yes . lynne neagle am: can you ask a final question ? and i 'm going to have to appeal for brief answers , because we 've got a lot of ground to cover . huw david: just very quickly , there may be no action from social services , but it doesn ’ t mean that we don ’ t offer support . so , the expectation is that support is offered in those circumstances from family support services , for example— sally jenkins: or prevention . huw david: —or prevention services . so , we would not say , if we were aware , for example , that there was domestic abuse at a home , ‘ there ’ s no role for children ’ s social services ’ , because there may be an assessment that that child may not be at immediate risk of harm , but we would obviously recognise that there are causes for concern there and we would offer that support . so , just to be clear about that . and that ’ s a process that happens in every social services department in the uk , and it ’ s happened for a very long time , and , in fact , it ’ s reflective of the legislation that you have laid down as assembly members . lynne neagle am: and are those services there , huw ? because i ’ m very acutely aware of the pressure on local government . are the services there ? is there sufficient resource in things like families first ? because what i ’ m hearing on the ground is that eligibility is changing for even those preventative services . huw david: there ’ s not enough of those services , and , obviously—you may have heard me saying this before—i think we need to invest more in those services , and i hope you invest more in the services , because , obviously , prevention is better than cure . and those pressures that sally talked about earlier are pressures that are not going away ; they ’ re only increasing by the day , actually , and i would want us to be able to offer those services now . because that example of a child that perhaps is in a home where there is domestic abuse—we ’ ll probably have another referral off them in a couple of months ’ time , and that could escalate . and what i ’ d rather do is provide support to that family and try and stop that family breaking down so that , in six months , we 're not going back and saying that we 've got to take this child into care because the domestic abuse has worsened and that child is at risk . but those services need additional investment . sally jenkins: i appreciate that time is of the essence , but , just really quickly in relation to that , it ’ s not just social services . so , for example , there are developments like encompass , which is a piece of work that is being rolled out across gwent and across other areas , which is where the police automatically notify the school overnight of an incident , not expecting the school to do anything per se , but to be aware , to be able to offer care for that child . alastair birch: can i add to that ? operation encompass i know in gwent has been operational , and we started it in pembrokeshire 18 months ago . we as a local authority—and it ’ ll be education that will contact the school around the domestic incident happening , and the school as part of that protocol will provide a level of universal service support for that child when they come in , before 9 o ’ clock , so that professionals are aware of the needs of the welfare of that child at that point . so , you know , schools play a key role in the universal service of this and we work very closely with our social care colleagues on that . lynne neagle am: okay . janet , your last question , please . janet finch-saunders am: the bill 's explanatory memorandum refers to an estimate of 274 offences annually where lawful chastisement was used as a defence or considered . it says there is also potential to create extra demand on out-of-hours social services teams due to the time that the offences were reported , and in order to support safeguarding measures . have you assessed how this bill will impact on emergency and out-of-hours local authority services ? sally jenkins: we have considered that , and again i think that 's something that we would very much want to look at as part of implementation . we have out-of-hours provision , we have emergency duty teams already across wales that operate 24/7 . there 's no doubt that they exist and they work very closely with our police colleagues . janet finch-saunders am: are they overstretched at the moment ? sally jenkins: i think in the same way as all of social services is . if we were offered additional resource , we are going to take that . but are they working in a way that protects children day in , day out , and vulnerable adults ? yes , they are , and they will continue to do so . lynne neagle am: thank you very much . we 've got some specific questions now on the impact on education from jayne bryant . jayne bryant am: thank you , chair . good morning . alastair , you 've already mentioned about awareness raising and training , which will be key with educational professionals . how confident are you that teachers and others working in those educational settings will be clear about how to support the implementation of this bill , if enacted ? alastair birch: training requirements for all professionals in education settings are clear . the universal tier 1 training is there , and all local authorities in wales will implement that . in that level of general safeguarding awareness and training , the infinite emphasis is on the duty to report . that will remain the same . the thresholds for social care , that 's their responsibility . that duty to report will always be there . it says in 'keeping learners safe ' , which is the bible in terms of education professionals , that there 's a responsibility on the professional to make that referral and for that universal service . so , the more specialist safeguarding leads within the schools , who have become highly skilled professionals in terms of understanding what might be significant harm—because that 's what we 're talking about—they understand the legalities when a referral needs to be made . there 's always the collation of safeguarding information , where there might be just general concerns about neglect and other areas , which combined would create a picture that there might be significant neglect or significant harm to the child , and then that referral would be made to the child care assessment team or the police . so , that awareness—it needs to be clear for educational professionals that that duty to report is always there . if they believe that that significant harm has happened then that report then goes to the child care assessment team . they will make the judgment on the threshold because they are the professionals . they have the multi-agency awareness of how that meets the threshold . but in terms of education , it 'll be that awareness , making sure that there 's clarity . if there 's anything that professionals need to be trained additionally on , it 'll need to go into 'keeping learners safe ' , which at the moment is being rewritten . so , there would have to be some new possible information there relating to this . but as long as there 's clarity , and once that implementation phase and the discussion has happened , as long as it 's clear for professionals that the duty is always there and they feel a significant harm , then that report will always be there and will always need to be made . it 's making sure—and i 'll echo what my colleague said , huw—that the services are key for families . schools are absolutely fundamental in that support for the families . they have those relationships with the families . i know there was discussion around professional trust . on a daily basis , professionals are working on that trust with parents , because they are the ones that can engage with those families . the family support officers that are working on the ground with highly complex families , with multiple leads and supporting the children—they are fundamental , and investment in that level of support would also help our colleagues as well . so , anything that 's preventative . that is already happening in schools and is effective , and is shown to be effective , and has an evidence base—we 'd always support that that would continue to be invested in . so , that 's really my answer . jayne bryant am: okay . and you were saying about how important trust is as well , but do you think that there 's a risk that those in education settings will have a key role in referring more parents to social services , which some have said could cause potential harm to relationships and cause mistrust ? alastair birch: i do n't think it 's a matter of mistrust—it 's a matter of , you know , if a professional believes , based on the evidence that they have , because they 're working with that child every day , that there is significant harm to that child , they are under a duty to report that to social care . so , part of the work is with families , and most of the referrals we make are with parental consent . that consent is a key element of this , and conversation with our social care colleagues is usually , 'you need to speak to the parents again and have a conversation with them . ' some of the nfas—the ones that do n't get referred at threshold—it will come back to school for , possibly , some support from the family or a team around the family or some other aspect . so , i do n't think— . the trust in the professionals—it 's actually more important that we are seen to be upholding our duties under the all-wales safeguarding procedures . that 's what engenders trust in a professional workforce . jayne bryant am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you very much . we 're going to move on now to some questions about the importance of awareness raising from siân gwenllian . sian gwenllian am: good morning . in looking at your written evidence , you say that we must make it very clear to parents , guardians and the public that this legislation is not trying to criminalise parents , and that is clearly very important for you . how do you think we should do that and who should be doing that work ? sally jenkins: i think that 's really broad . obviously , colleagues in education , colleagues in social care , colleagues in preventative services , but also welsh government and the national assembly , in terms of those drivers in relation to that awareness raising are really , really key . if you look at some of the other campaigns that have been run , notably in relation to violence against women , domestic abuse and sexual violence , and echoing some of those building campaigns that have been done to raise awareness—i think those would be really good models to begin to consider in terms of how this is taken forward with awareness . we also know that there are a number of routes that we can go through in terms of raising awareness . we have existing preventative services , we have all our universal services , we have the regional safeguarding boards and the national safeguarding boards . so , there are a number of avenues that we could then explore . in terms of not wishing to criminalise , i think if we look at the numbers , they are very , very small . and i think one of the things we need to hold on to in this is a sense of proportion about what is or is n't likely to happen once or if this bill ever gets to the point of royal assent—they are small numbers who currently use this defence . it is about that wider issue of awareness raising , and using all of those avenues will help us to do that in the broadest sense . sian gwenllian am: do you , therefore , believe that this needs to be on the face of the bill ? that is , you do n't say this in your evidence . i 'd like to know your opinion on that . scotland is going to be making it a duty for scottish ministers to raise awareness of the impact of the bill . so far , the welsh government says that we do n't need to do that in wales . would n't it make it clearer for you if it was a clear duty on the face of the bill , for example as it was with the human transplantation ( wales ) act 2013 ? there was a duty in that act for ministers to promote transplantation . surely , that awareness raising aspect would be clearer for everyone if it was on the face of the bill . do you have an opinion on that ? huw david: well , welsh government have given that commitment , and i know the welsh government honour every commitment that they make— [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: that 's why i 'm asking . huw david: i do n't know whether that is necessary—i 'm not a legislator . i think that there 's obviously an inherent interest in welsh government raising awareness , because we have to raise awareness effectively for this to be successful , otherwise we will have parents who feel that they 're being criminalised , and that 's the last thing we want . i think it 's worthy of consideration , but , as i say , i 'm not a legislator or a lawyer , so i do n't know what implications that will have long term . but to be fair to welsh government , i think that commitment is one that i 'm sure will be honoured , because welsh government will want to make a success of this bill if it does receive royal assent . sian gwenllian am: okay . but is it clear who would pay for all of that ? huw david: i 've suddenly changed my mind— [ laughter . ] i think it should be a duty on welsh government ministers—absolutely . i do n't need to check with lawyers or legislators . there we go . and that 's the wlga position ; i do n't need to ask the other 21 leaders on that either . [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: would n't it make it clearer if there was a clear duty on the face of the bill that awareness raising had to happen ? it would be clearer , then , for local authorities and people in the front-line services what needs to happen . sally jenkins: i 'm going to echo huw . [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: i thought you might . okay , fine . lynne neagle am: okay . we 're moving on now , then , to the contentious issue of resources and we 've got some questions from hefin . hefin david am: sally jenkins , you said that the purpose of the bill is to bring clarity and to remove what is a little-used defence . is n't this an expensive way of doing that ? sally jenkins: i do n't think so , no . i think that our children deserve the best legislation . hefin david am: but introducing this legislation diverts finances from other areas of children 's services—or does n't ? sally jenkins: well , i would say , no , i do n't think it will divert resources from children 's services . firstly , going back to the comment made , i think , proportionally , this is a very small number of cases . it 's a very small number of existing cases that go through in terms of prosecution , or consideration for prosecution . we know that it 's likely , from some of the work that we 've already done , that it 's not opening floodgates for a sudden sea of referrals to children 's services—that 's not the way this is going to be , because the numbers are not out there because of the changes that have already happened in welsh family life and welsh society . so , i think as part of the implementation phase , we need to have a really clear understanding of the trajectory of those costs and what 's likely to happen over the first six months , 12 months in terms of people 's awareness and understanding and what is referred and how that 's worked . but in terms of a huge number , no , i do n't anticipate it being that . hefin david am: but the costs would n't just be directed to the number of referrals and the number of cases raised , it 's the cost around that , with training of staff , awareness—all those extra additional costs that always come with legislation . is it too much ? is it— ? sally jenkins: no . and i agree with that—that there clearly are—but if you think , many of those things will be aligned with work we are already doing , but it brings a clarity to that work . so , our teachers , our social workers , our health workers , our police officers already get substantial training around child protection , around safeguarding , around adverse childhood experiences and around a trauma-informed approach to children . what this does is it layers a clarity on that . but rather than having a part of that training , which has to deal with this as an aspect—that is no longer there ; it is a clear message for all professions . hefin david am: i fully appreciate that , and in the briefing note you 've given us , you 've outlined the pressures on social services . so , do you think this is another way of getting money into social services ? sally jenkins: if this was a way of getting money into— . i can think of better ways , but i do n't think this is it . no , i mean , i absolutely do not think that . i think this is a clear commitment to the rights of children in wales ; this is not about levering additional resources into children 's services . oh that it was so simple . hefin david am: okay . and , do you think those costs are quantifiable ? sally jenkins: i think we are currently looking at work and are doing work across my own local authority and across two others to look at breaking down those costs , not just for local authority , but also for health , for police and for children and family court advisory and support service cymru . so , there is work currently taking place to try to quantify those costs . hefin david am: okay . i think there was a bit about local authorities that siân— lynne neagle am: okay . siân gwenllian has got a question on resources . sian gwenllian am: yes , just to carry on from that , in a way . the explanatory memorandum that accompanies the bill talks about the unknown costs for different agencies . you mentioned there that you 're doing work around trying to identify some of those costs , but would n't it be useful if the explanatory memorandum did explain more about any unknown or unidentified costs , partly in order to calm some of those fears around that ? giving a title 'unidentified costs'—is that good enough ? sally jenkins: i think , clearly , that is a challenge , and that is work that we are participating in and are committed to completing with welsh government , to look at what those costs are . sian gwenllian am: and then they can be added into this . huw david: i think this is where it would be helpful in the committee 's deliberations and where our concern would be , because the reality is we 're not going to know what the costs are until it 's actually implemented , because we have n't implemented this before . and , therefore , i think there needs to be a commitment that , whatever the costs are , those costs are met because it is legislation that is being led by the national assembly for wales . and whilst we do n't see it as levering in additional resources , we do n't think it should be at the expense of current service provision to vulnerable families in wales , and therefore it 's important that it is properly and fully resourced . sian gwenllian am: what i would argue on that is that you have to try and forecast . you say it 's difficult to forecast how much this is going to cost , but we have to try and forecast that , and part of the argument for trying to have projections is to show that , perhaps , it 's not going to cost that much , and that would add to the argument that , 'okay , this is going to be fine to do and it 's not going to put too much pressure on us ' . or we need to know that this is going to cost a lot to do it effectively , and therefore you have to make your argument , then , 'well , we ca n't afford that , the money has to come from somewhere else . ' we have to get the costs , surely . huw david: yes , and we will work very closely with welsh government to try and establish those costs as quickly as possible . there will be some costs that we will be able to identify . so , for example , a campaign , an awareness-raising campaign , the marketing , if you like , but some of the other costs will be more difficult to establish in terms of the resource implications for front-line workers . i expressed a view that we need to see some additional investment in some of those programmes that are not targeted directly at families that would be impacted by this but support all families across wales that have different needs , and some of that provision is universal . obviously , my view is the more we put into that , the better . so , there 's no limit to that , but i suspect welsh government will take a very different view to that . but i think that is something where we need to see a commitment to some additional resources . but i do n't put an upper limit on that , because i do n't think there 's an authority in wales , and i do n't think there 's a charity , a police service or a health board in wales that does n't think that we need to do more of that and could offer more of that if the resources were available . sian gwenllian am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've come to the end of our time , so can i thank you all for attending and for answering all of our questions ? it 's been a really useful and informative discussion . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you again , all of you , for coming . huw david: and thank you for your questions and engagement . we welcome the opportunity . alastair birch: thank you very much . sally jenkins: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: okay , item 3 is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the minister for housing and local government—additional information for our inquiry into school funding . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for health and social services on in-patient child and adolescent mental health services provision , and i would like to briefly return to that when we go into private . are members happy to note those ? thank you . item 4 , then : can i propose a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? thank you .

there were many reasons that had led to the increasing numbers of children becoming looked after across england and wales , and it was hard to identify a single reason . increased austerity was a part of this . in addition , an increased awareness of adverse childhood experiences and the emphasis of the impact on children of domestic abuse also affected this . it was also because of our understanding of what happened to children in those households . besides , changes in our practice with colleagues in the judiciary , changes in the police service , and changes in the preventative services were other elements .

summarize the questions and answers on the implementation for social services . </s> lynne neagle am: okay . good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from suzy davies and jack sargeant and i 'm very pleased to welcome jayne bryant back , who is substituting for jack today . are there any declarations of interest from members , please ? no . okay , thank you . item 2 , then , this morning , is our sixth scrutiny session on the children ( abolition of defence of reasonable punishment ) ( wales ) bill . i 'm very pleased to welcome our witnesses this morning : sally jenkins , who is chair of all wales heads of children ’ s services and is here representing the association of directors of social services ; alastair birch , who is senior system leader for equalities and safeguarding at pembrokeshire county council , who is here representing the association of directors of education wales ; and councillor huw david , who is the welsh local government association spokesperson for health and social care and leader of bridgend county borough council . so , thank you all for attending this morning . we 're very pleased to have you here . we 've got a lot of ground to cover , so , if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions and i 'll start just by asking about your general support for the bill , which is outlined in the evidence . can you just explain why you think the current law is ineffective or unclear ? alastair birch: bore da—bore da , bawb . so , i 'm alastair birch . the statement , really , from adew is that the rights of the child should be educated and achieved , really , under the united nations convention on the rights of the child . the current legislation has been criticised , obviously , by the un concerning the defence of reasonable punishment still being within our current legislation . so , we will always—adew will always—advocate that the rights of the child be upheld , so that is really the fundamental aspect in terms of the statement from adew , and the position of adew is that the rights of the child are fundamental in this process . and there are certain articles— . i know that the rights of children and young persons ( wales ) measure 2011 made sure that article 3 and article 4 , article 12 and article 37 were a focus in terms of making sure that the best interests of the child were put first , that children expressing their views and opinions was a priority . and we know , for safeguarding purposes , that the express opinions of the child and the voice of the child are a fundamental aspect of any safe environment , whether it be a school or college . so , that is—the position is really following that legal position under the rights of children and young persons ( wales ) measure . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . nothing to add at this stage , no ? sally jenkins: i 'll just add , on behalf of adss and on behalf of children 's services and social services more widely , for us , this is not a change in our position , this is not new ; this is a position that we , on behalf of the leaders of social services across wales , have taken over many years , going back 20 , 25 years . i think what we would say is that we really welcome this bill and we welcome the proposed change for the clarity it would bring—the clarity that it would bring for children , for parents and for professionals . i think what we would recognise is that this is a very little-used piece of legislation , so it 's rare , it 's not as if this is something that is going to cast great change across the scene for children and families in wales , but what it will do is represent a change in the reality of how we care and nurture our children . i would echo absolutely what alastair has said in terms of the rights of the child , but equally , in terms of all of our policies in wales in terms of promoting well-being for children , this has to be key . so , for us , this is about a natural progression of change in how we care for our children in wales . for children 's services at the very sharp end of this world , for us , it brings a true clarity . this continues with an ambiguity in how we treat our children and how we care for our children , and the shift for us brings that very much needed clarity . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the committee has already heard different views about whether there 's clear evidence that physical punishment is harmful to children . what evidence does the work of social services provide about whether physical punishment is actually harmful ? sally jenkins: obviously , what you 'll all be aware of is that , as part of the consultation for this bill , the public policy institute did a further piece of research to look at the impact of physical punishment on children . a number of things that we know—we know from across the world that the evidence is that introducing legislation or changing legislation in this way improves children 's positions within their families . what we know is that children themselves , as alastair has already referred to , really find physical punishment demeaning and harmful , and for children it is an emotionally damaging experience . now , there may be disagreement about that , there will be different views on that , but that 's the voice of the child in this debate . the voice of the child is very clear that physical punishment is for them harmful . i think what we would also say is that , in the world that we work in , it 's part of a continuum , and , whilst this is an element of how children are cared for , what we see is a continuum where an acceptance of how we treat children in a particular way perpetuates throughout our work . by changing this , it helps that shift to that absolute recognition that our children must be cared for in a way that is physically safe in all dimensions for them . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've had evidence from the equal protection network that the reasonable punishment defence undermines child protection and fails to protect children because it permits an arbitrary level of violence , which invades children 's physical integrity , making it a potential pathway to more serious physical or sexual abuse , and you did refer to that just now . is there anything you want to add on that ? sally jenkins: i would echo that . i think there is something in this that is about our culture , about how we see our children . it is about how we see our smallest and most vulnerable people , and if it is acceptable it opens the door to those other , more extreme versions of violence , which then complicates the issue for us . this is about clarity , and , whilst there is an argument that this is a small episode for a child , it 's not a small episode for a child , it is a major episode for a child , and i think absolutely , as you said , the potential for it then to lead on , and over gradation and time to increase the risk for children , is clearly there . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the final question from me : your written evidence emphasises the need for greater clarity around the definition of what constitutes corporal punishment , but that contrasts with what we 've been told by the children 's commissioner and the equal protection network , who 've emphasised the importance of simplicity in the bill . how do you respond to that view , and is what you 're calling for essential to be on the face of the bill ? sally jenkins: it 's not essential for it to be on the face of the bill . what we would like to see is discussion within the implementation phase for that nuancing . absolutely agree in terms of simplicity—i think that is really important—and i 've already mentioned clarity . what we do n't want to do is further confuse the position . we know that the legislation in different countries has done that , and there are ways that you can do it , but what we would welcome is an opportunity during the implementation phase for discussion . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . huw david: and , as a principle , obviously we would welcome full involvement , and we know there 's the commitment from welsh government to full involvement in the implementation , because , as with every piece of legislation , implementation is the most important part , and we would want to ensure there is that commitment to a major awareness-raising campaign , and there is that from welsh government , because we need to take families , carers and parents with us on this . also we need to ensure that there is that support available to parents and carers that do sometimes struggle with parenting , and that needs to be a universal offer across wales . if we 're to progress with this , that has to be an option that is offered to every parent in wales . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . sally jenkins: local authorities have already been very heavily involved in terms of looking at this bill and exploring what the issues are and the discussions and looking at what the implications from a local authority perspective will be , as huw describes , both in terms of the awareness raising , early support and intervention and prevention services for families against the backdrop of the current issues that we have in local government , but also awareness raising—because absolutely it is key that families come with us on this journey . this is not an imposition . this is embracing a culture and a value system for our children . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . i 've got some questions now from dawn bowden on the implementation of the bill . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . so , you 've pre-empted me , huw . huw david: right . sorry . i 've got good eyesight ; i ca n't see— . [ laughter . ] dawn bowden am: you 've already said , obviously , that you 're looking towards working with welsh government in terms of its implementation . what 's been your role so far in terms of the implementation of the bill—local authorities generally , now ? have you had a role ? has welsh government been involving you in discussions around the introduction of the bill so far ? huw david: yes . so , obviously we were consulted—a key consultee—but also our officials have worked very closely with welsh government officials to make sure this is implemented successfully , if it is progressed . sally jenkins: our involvement with this , from a social services perspective , goes back over two years , directly in working towards this point , never mind the history in terms of work towards this area . but , very directly in relation to this bill , we were first involved at least two years ago , to recollect , and that was in a series of workshops with other agencies , for example children and family court advisory and support service cymru and the police , and looking in real depth at what the implications would be for us as agencies to look at what the likely trajectory would be in terms of our pathways for referral into our services and what that might mean for us . and then particularly , for example , with cafcass cymru in relation to private law , what the fallout might be , and then what , if anything—and that 's the discussion that we need to have—that could mean for children 's services in particular , given the pressures that we 're already under . so , we 've been in constant , i suppose , involvement in terms of the bill already , as part of the consultation , in terms of the focus groups and in terms of direct work with welsh government officials to take this forward . and we are absolutely committed to continuing with that work . dawn bowden am: okay . you touched there on the pressures that you 're already under , which we fully appreciate , but you also mentioned in answers to lynne neagle earlier on that you welcomed the bill in terms of its clarity . so , are you confident that the bill can be implemented without any major impact on your capacity to deal with it ? sally jenkins: we 've done— . a number of local authorities—my own included , newport city council , has done some work to look at what the likely impact would be and then actually to look at what some of that costing would need to be . further work is needed on that area , and that needs to be carried out during the implementation phase . i think what we 've done is we 've looked internationally at what the impact has been elsewhere when similar legislation has been introduced to try and gauge , but that 's difficult to do in terms of comparable nations and size and also different systems . and obviously our approach in terms of children and pedagogy is very different from some of the nations that have already done this . i would n't like to say one way or the other , because i think , in terms of that culture shift , it could be a double impact on us in terms of increased referrals because of increased awareness , but it could also be , i suppose , as huw alludes to , that , if we 're looking at ensuring greater awareness of preventative services and support services for parents , actually people coming to the fore and asking us for those services as well . so , at this stage , i think what we would want to say is that we continue to be fully involved in the implementation phase , to look at what the cost implications for that could be , and not just for the local authorities but also the police , cafcass cymru , for third sector organisations involved in preventative services . i do n't think any of that should undermine the position in terms of children and their rights within our society . so , a difficult answer , in the sense that— dawn bowden am: no , i understand . what you 're saying is that this is a piece of legislation that , in your view , is a good piece of legislation . it 's setting out to , hopefully , achieve what the purpose of it is and you will deliver what you need to . can i ask you whether , then , you 've also given thought to the impact on—we 've talked about social services , but the impact on other services , like housing , education and so on ? you 're obviously coming at it from slightly different angles in other sections . alastair birch: we are part of the universal service for children , and we very much work in co-operation with the wlga and our social care colleagues , and we 've been part of that consultation . in terms of education , the main changes , or adaptations , would be around training and awareness . and , in terms of the bill , there needs to be the clarity—ambiguity would be bad—in terms of making sure that safeguarding leads within all schools have the right training and support . so , really , that 's the key element there , and then obviously the preventative services for the parents that schools can signpost , and sometimes possibly even host , in terms of being community schools . these positive parenting approaches that— . i have colleagues who have worked in that area for many years and see the benefits in how those positive parenting approaches make a difference to families . dawn bowden am: so , from your point of view , it 's awareness raising , is it ? alastair birch: it 's awareness raising ; it 's making sure that professionals are fully briefed on necessary changes , that there 's very little ambiguity , that we are aware that— . we still have that duty to report whenever there is any safeguarding concern . that 'll still be part of the all-wales child protection procedures . that wo n't change , and that duty is always going to be there for all our professionals . but that awareness raising and training will be the key , and then , obviously , working in co-operation with our colleagues . dawn bowden am: okay , i understand that . have you been given an indication of how long you 've got between royal assent and implementation , and whether you 've thought through any of the key milestones that need to be implemented ? sally jenkins: there 's a group proposed that would be a strategic leadership group in the steering group that we 're part of , which is now laying out what would happen after royal assent if that is given . so , we will work towards that . dawn bowden am: okay . my final question , chair , is about some of the responses we 've had to this committee that say that the state should not get involved in family life—i 'm sure you 've heard those views—unless it 's in the most serious circumstances . to what extent do you think that this bill undermines the existing local authority responsibilities , or do n't you ? huw david: the state 's paramount role is to protect children from harm . that is our legal responsibility , it 's our moral responsibility , and we will discharge that . and there is obviously a view—it 's a view that is enshrined in the un convention on the rights of the child—that physical punishment , physical harm to a child is harm to a child , and we should be preventing that and act to prevent that . that would be the position of the welsh local government association , and we also respect the mandate that members of the national assembly for wales have too . and we believe that children can be raised by parents without recourse to physical punishment , effectively , and we 'd support parents in that . we do not believe that in the 50 nations across the world where such legislation exists that the state is interfering in family life unnecessarily . we believe this action reflects a cultural change , a sea change that 's taken place in wales over the last 30 to 40 years , where the vast majority of parents now say that they do not use it themselves , they do not support it , and we believe this is actually a reflection of what has happened in welsh society . we support assembly members in the view that the natural progression of that is that children 's rights are protected across wales . dawn bowden am: so , i 've got largely positive feedback from you in terms of the bill and its intentions , and so on . do you foresee any unintended consequences for this bill ? huw david: if we implement it carefully , if we implement it with the right resources , then i hope not . i think not . but as with every piece of legislation , it is about the implementation , it is about the cultural change as well , and that 's why i can not overstress the importance of making sure that resources are made available , because our social services departments—children 's social services in particular—are overstretched . they are at breaking point—make no bones about it—and they are dealing with children who are facing serious harm and neglect . we are having record numbers of contacts from police , from teachers , from doctors and , of course , from children themselves who are experiencing that harm and neglect . and obviously , we want to focus our energy and our attention on those children . equally , though , we do n't want to lose sight of those families and children that are experiencing significant problems , but who we want to support through our early intervention and prevention programmes , and that is why it is important that there is investment in those programmes , so that children do not end up in that terrible position where we have to , for their safety , take them from their birth families to protect them . and the reality is , in wales , that we are doing that to more children than we 've done for a long time , and the numbers are growing across wales . and that is only because of the most appalling neglect and abuse , because there is no way that any judge would permit us to act to make a child safe if it was not for that fact , and the facts are there . so , i do n't want that focus to be lost , but , of course , we welcome and understand the need to progress this piece of legislation . dawn bowden am: that rise that you talk about here , is that due to more interventions , greater awareness , more incidents ? i 'm trying to link this to the bill in terms of whether the bill is actually going to give you more work to do in those areas . sally jenkins: on the reasons for the rise in the numbers of looked-after children in wales , which are higher than those in england , and also the numbers of contacts that we have across the local authorities , the work of the care crisis review , which was completed last year ; the work of isabelle trowler , who 's the chief social worker in england ; countless research and reports that have taken place in the last 18 months ; and currently the public law working group , under the auspices of the president of the family court , would all indicate that it 's multifactorial . so , what you have is a range of reasons that have led to the increasing numbers of children becoming looked after across england and wales . what you ca n't do is identify a single reason . there have been headlines that have said , 'is it increased austerity ? ' that is clearly a part of this . is it in wales an increased awareness of adverse childhood experiences and the emphasis of the impact on children of , for example , domestic abuse ? is it because of our understanding of what happens to children in those households ? all of that research would say it 's all of those things . and then , when you also add in changes in our practice with our colleagues in the judiciary , changes in our police service , but also changes in our preventative services , you 've got that whole range of elements . and there is going on across the local authorities and welsh government a huge amount of work to try to address and understand that , and then to ameliorate that . children who need to be in care for safety need to be in care , but what we have to do is get to a point where fewer children come into care and we 're able to protect them , firstly , and secondly where those children who are in care are cared for in a way that delivers the best possible outcomes for them . so , there is no simple answer unfortunately . i think , in terms of this bill and unintended consequences , i agree absolutely with everything that huw has said . my job is around children at that far end , but what this bill does is it brings clarity . it brings a clarity even for those children at that very far end . it takes away even that point of discussion that this could possibly be okay , and i think that 's important to hang on to . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . sorry . alastair birch: one unintended consequences is that i think that there will be an increased focus on the uncrc . and , in terms of children having a discussion around this point , children need to be part of that discussion . it 's something that affects them . and a key aspect of education is the voice of the child . it has become significantly— . it 's changed completely in the last 10 years , and it is one of the key things in terms of us driving improvements . dawn bowden am: would that be something that you would be looking to do in schools ? alastair birch: anything that improves the voice of the child in any educational context is good and it 's very powerful for the children . and it improves their educational experiences , encouraging the opportunities for them to discuss the issues , the adverse childhood experiences that they encounter , which are significant , and it 's our educational professionals that are facing this day-in , day-out . they 've become a very highly trained workforce , they 're ace aware , they 're trauma aware , and anything that focuses , even increases , their professionalism and understanding around a particular point , and also— . so it 's a positive unintended consequence , shall we say , that it could reinvigorate some of the voice of the child discussion within various contexts . dawn bowden am: okay . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: we 've got some specific questions now on implementation for social services , from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . if this bill becomes law , would you encourage members of the public to contact social services departments if they do see a child being smacked ? sally jenkins: we already encourage members of the public to contact social services or the police , depending on the circumstances . interestingly , i 'm picking— janet finch-saunders am: what , if a child is being smacked now ? sally jenkins: yes . if a child is being smacked now , we would ask that people contact . we have a duty to report , as professionals . but if you were walking out , and you saw something happening to a child , in the same way as if you saw something to an adult . janet finch-saunders am: right . sally jenkins: so , i think that the challenge is about—we 've all probably , sadly , witnessed incidents in the doctor 's reception , or in a supermarket , and we 've failed to do something about it . and i think we then walk away and feel pretty guilty about that , realistically , when you see something happening to a child in a particular circumstance . i think we ca n't ignore the fact that a child is being assaulted in those circumstances . janet finch-saunders am: okay . thank you . a campaign opposing this bill , be reasonable wales , have said that 'if the law is changed , the consequences for parents will be considerable . ' it also says , 'anyone accused or convicted of assaulting a child—under the new definition— ' so , i suppose you could argue , a minor tap— 'will be subject to long-term social services involvement in their family and social stigma . ' to what extent is this accurate , and , also , will thresholds for social services intervention change if the bill is enacted ? sally jenkins: there are a number of parts to that . firstly , in terms of long-term social services intervention in a family 's life , i think , for people to be fully aware of the very few numbers of families where we have long-term intervention currently , even where there is what would be perceived as very significant abuse . what we do is we go in for short periods in families ' lives , to support them to work with their strengths , to work with them and their family members . it 's not about us going into families , whatever some of the public perception may be . our aim is to get in and get out . so , in terms of long-term intervention , what we want is for families to find their own solutions . we want families to be able to work with each other , and together , and local community support , and preventative services , to be able to address issues . this is not about punitive approaches from social services . so , that 's the first element . in terms of thresholds for children 's services , we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us . there may be a small number of referrals that come through . what we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle . we recognise that 's likely to happen . because we also know that this is actually quite a rare occurrence currently ; this is not a defence that 's being used with great frequency , this is not something that is happening . and if we look at the data , we know that the incidents of children , and the number of parents who now recognise this as an acceptable form of punishment , has steadily declined over the last 15 to 20 years . so it 's diminishing as it is . janet finch-saunders am: so , on that one then , is there a need for legislation that will—obviously there 'll be resources for the welsh government and there 'll be resources out of hours and things like that—is there a need for legislation if , as you say , natural behaviour and the culture is changing ? let 's be honest , as you 've rightly pointed out , in social services—i know in my own authority—in your own authority , you 're saying that even now you 're working with the police , on systematic failings within the system . sally jenkins: two things . firstly , we want legislation that reflects our society—we do n't want the two to be out of kilter . that would be my first natural response : surely our legislation should be reflective of what our world is . it should n't be that we 've got these rather confusing elements running in parallel , and that continues to perpetuate a lack of clarity and the ambiguity that we currently see . i think the other element is that , again , this is about potentially an accelerating of that awareness and that culture in our society , about how we care for our children . we 've got there naturally ; we 've got there by the change that 's happened in wales over the last 15 to 20 years . what this does is to continue with that change and continue with that awareness and understanding of how we positively , from a strength-based approach , should care for our children , bearing in mind what 's required of us in terms of the uncrc . janet finch-saunders am: okay . are there any comments from anyone else ? huw david: simply to say that i think that , in terms of that clarity for the very vulnerable children out there who are currently being assaulted—seriously assaulted and abused by their parents , which goes on on a daily basis—that is already covered by existing legislation . but at the moment , they do n't know , because they could be being told—and they probably are being told—by their parents that 's it 's okay , that they can smack their child and that that 's acceptable . they do n't know the difference . a young child is not going to know that difference and there is confusion about what is— . and if you asked most parents , and in fact lots of professionals , they would not be able to tell you , and probably most of you would n't be able to tell me exactly where is the threshold— janet finch-saunders am: yes , where 's that line . huw david: well , at the moment , we do n't know where that line is . that vulnerable child , at home , being abused by their parents , does not know where that line is . and they should know where that line is because then they can pick up the phone to childline or they can talk to a professional and ask them where that line is . so , that would be a step forward . i do recognise , though , that what we do n't want to do—and the last thing any of us want to do—is criminalise parents who are bringing up their children . that is why we 're saying there needs to be an emphasis on the support programmes that are available to parents . and to be clear , there is no way that we want long-term involvement in any child 's life , but particularly not in the lives of children who have been smacked by their parents . that is not going to be the result of this legislation , trust me , because we do n't want to be involved in—we have n't got the resources to be involved in children 's lives . the social worker or the police officer—if they become involved , then there would be a proportionate response to that , and there 'll also be a test about whether or not that is progressed . so , if there is an allegation—if this legislation is passed—then that will be looked into and a consideration will be made about whether any action will be taken , and as with any allegation of the law being broken , there would be a proportionate response , as there is now . lynne neagle am: and the next question does relate to the practical response to that . janet . janet finch-saunders am: yes . can you outline the practical ways in which social services ' interaction with parents will change as a result of this proposed law and do you envisage that all referrals to the police will be automatically referred to social services for an assessment ? who 's going to make those decisions ? sally jenkins: that will be part of the implementation phase about that decision making . interestingly , the number of referrals that we currently get from the police that we take absolutely no action on is extraordinary . so , we get a very , very large number of— . it will be happening now ; sitting in the civic centre in newport city council will be a whole host of social workers taking in the public protection notifications from overnight . it 's 10 o'clock , so they 're assessing them now , as we speak . and an awful lot of those will have no further action from the local authority . janet finch-saunders am: but will they be investigated ? sally jenkins: no . there will be no action . there are countless referrals made by agencies to local authorities that we take no action on . janet finch-saunders am: so , if there 's an increase as a result of greater awareness— sally jenkins: what happens is there is a paper assessment of them . there 's a look at what 's happened , who 's involved , what the police have reported , and there 's work being done with the police to improve that . because one of the things that we want to get to is actually where we 're not using huge amounts of time to look at that , but what comes to us is what we act on . so , there is work going on with a number of police authorities to look at how you improve that process . but i suppose , to pick up , each incident will be looked at , each one will be assessed in a way that is proportionate , as huw says , to look at what 's happened and then investigated . lynne neagle am: sally , can you give us a couple of examples of what kind of things might have come in that you would then take no action on ? sally jenkins: we get countless referrals , for example , where there 's been a domestic abuse incident overnight where a child was n't present in the property and we then have n't taken action . it ’ ll be where the level of harm that ’ s perceived to happen to that child is below the threshold for intervention from children 's services . janet finch-saunders am: i ’ m pretty cynical about assessment , because , you know , i have people come in who are benefit claimants where , when they ’ ve been assessed , the whole process has been very flawed and i ’ ve had to fight and fight and fight on their behalf . so— sally jenkins: assessment processes within social— janet finch-saunders am: but if you 're struggling now with those assessments— sally jenkins: assessment processes within social services are as laid out in the social services and well-being ( wales ) act 2014. so , we have within what we carry out , i suppose , that kind of initial look , that look at the information , what else do we know about that family— janet finch-saunders am: and are they qualified people that are doing this ? sally jenkins: yes , absolutely . huw david: and , in fact , in lots of places in wales now , it ’ s a multi-agency assessment . so , it ’ s a joint assessment carried out with police professionals and health professionals . janet finch-saunders am: so , what proportion currently would you not be taking any action on , if a report came in of some domestic abuse where a child had perhaps been smacked ? sally jenkins: if something came in to us where a child had been smacked and there was something clearly there , we would look at it . we would clearly look at it and we would take some sort of action . janet finch-saunders am: even now , before the legislation ? sally jenkins: yes . lynne neagle am: can you ask a final question ? and i 'm going to have to appeal for brief answers , because we 've got a lot of ground to cover . huw david: just very quickly , there may be no action from social services , but it doesn ’ t mean that we don ’ t offer support . so , the expectation is that support is offered in those circumstances from family support services , for example— sally jenkins: or prevention . huw david: —or prevention services . so , we would not say , if we were aware , for example , that there was domestic abuse at a home , ‘ there ’ s no role for children ’ s social services ’ , because there may be an assessment that that child may not be at immediate risk of harm , but we would obviously recognise that there are causes for concern there and we would offer that support . so , just to be clear about that . and that ’ s a process that happens in every social services department in the uk , and it ’ s happened for a very long time , and , in fact , it ’ s reflective of the legislation that you have laid down as assembly members . lynne neagle am: and are those services there , huw ? because i ’ m very acutely aware of the pressure on local government . are the services there ? is there sufficient resource in things like families first ? because what i ’ m hearing on the ground is that eligibility is changing for even those preventative services . huw david: there ’ s not enough of those services , and , obviously—you may have heard me saying this before—i think we need to invest more in those services , and i hope you invest more in the services , because , obviously , prevention is better than cure . and those pressures that sally talked about earlier are pressures that are not going away ; they ’ re only increasing by the day , actually , and i would want us to be able to offer those services now . because that example of a child that perhaps is in a home where there is domestic abuse—we ’ ll probably have another referral off them in a couple of months ’ time , and that could escalate . and what i ’ d rather do is provide support to that family and try and stop that family breaking down so that , in six months , we 're not going back and saying that we 've got to take this child into care because the domestic abuse has worsened and that child is at risk . but those services need additional investment . sally jenkins: i appreciate that time is of the essence , but , just really quickly in relation to that , it ’ s not just social services . so , for example , there are developments like encompass , which is a piece of work that is being rolled out across gwent and across other areas , which is where the police automatically notify the school overnight of an incident , not expecting the school to do anything per se , but to be aware , to be able to offer care for that child . alastair birch: can i add to that ? operation encompass i know in gwent has been operational , and we started it in pembrokeshire 18 months ago . we as a local authority—and it ’ ll be education that will contact the school around the domestic incident happening , and the school as part of that protocol will provide a level of universal service support for that child when they come in , before 9 o ’ clock , so that professionals are aware of the needs of the welfare of that child at that point . so , you know , schools play a key role in the universal service of this and we work very closely with our social care colleagues on that . lynne neagle am: okay . janet , your last question , please . janet finch-saunders am: the bill 's explanatory memorandum refers to an estimate of 274 offences annually where lawful chastisement was used as a defence or considered . it says there is also potential to create extra demand on out-of-hours social services teams due to the time that the offences were reported , and in order to support safeguarding measures . have you assessed how this bill will impact on emergency and out-of-hours local authority services ? sally jenkins: we have considered that , and again i think that 's something that we would very much want to look at as part of implementation . we have out-of-hours provision , we have emergency duty teams already across wales that operate 24/7 . there 's no doubt that they exist and they work very closely with our police colleagues . janet finch-saunders am: are they overstretched at the moment ? sally jenkins: i think in the same way as all of social services is . if we were offered additional resource , we are going to take that . but are they working in a way that protects children day in , day out , and vulnerable adults ? yes , they are , and they will continue to do so . lynne neagle am: thank you very much . we 've got some specific questions now on the impact on education from jayne bryant . jayne bryant am: thank you , chair . good morning . alastair , you 've already mentioned about awareness raising and training , which will be key with educational professionals . how confident are you that teachers and others working in those educational settings will be clear about how to support the implementation of this bill , if enacted ? alastair birch: training requirements for all professionals in education settings are clear . the universal tier 1 training is there , and all local authorities in wales will implement that . in that level of general safeguarding awareness and training , the infinite emphasis is on the duty to report . that will remain the same . the thresholds for social care , that 's their responsibility . that duty to report will always be there . it says in 'keeping learners safe ' , which is the bible in terms of education professionals , that there 's a responsibility on the professional to make that referral and for that universal service . so , the more specialist safeguarding leads within the schools , who have become highly skilled professionals in terms of understanding what might be significant harm—because that 's what we 're talking about—they understand the legalities when a referral needs to be made . there 's always the collation of safeguarding information , where there might be just general concerns about neglect and other areas , which combined would create a picture that there might be significant neglect or significant harm to the child , and then that referral would be made to the child care assessment team or the police . so , that awareness—it needs to be clear for educational professionals that that duty to report is always there . if they believe that that significant harm has happened then that report then goes to the child care assessment team . they will make the judgment on the threshold because they are the professionals . they have the multi-agency awareness of how that meets the threshold . but in terms of education , it 'll be that awareness , making sure that there 's clarity . if there 's anything that professionals need to be trained additionally on , it 'll need to go into 'keeping learners safe ' , which at the moment is being rewritten . so , there would have to be some new possible information there relating to this . but as long as there 's clarity , and once that implementation phase and the discussion has happened , as long as it 's clear for professionals that the duty is always there and they feel a significant harm , then that report will always be there and will always need to be made . it 's making sure—and i 'll echo what my colleague said , huw—that the services are key for families . schools are absolutely fundamental in that support for the families . they have those relationships with the families . i know there was discussion around professional trust . on a daily basis , professionals are working on that trust with parents , because they are the ones that can engage with those families . the family support officers that are working on the ground with highly complex families , with multiple leads and supporting the children—they are fundamental , and investment in that level of support would also help our colleagues as well . so , anything that 's preventative . that is already happening in schools and is effective , and is shown to be effective , and has an evidence base—we 'd always support that that would continue to be invested in . so , that 's really my answer . jayne bryant am: okay . and you were saying about how important trust is as well , but do you think that there 's a risk that those in education settings will have a key role in referring more parents to social services , which some have said could cause potential harm to relationships and cause mistrust ? alastair birch: i do n't think it 's a matter of mistrust—it 's a matter of , you know , if a professional believes , based on the evidence that they have , because they 're working with that child every day , that there is significant harm to that child , they are under a duty to report that to social care . so , part of the work is with families , and most of the referrals we make are with parental consent . that consent is a key element of this , and conversation with our social care colleagues is usually , 'you need to speak to the parents again and have a conversation with them . ' some of the nfas—the ones that do n't get referred at threshold—it will come back to school for , possibly , some support from the family or a team around the family or some other aspect . so , i do n't think— . the trust in the professionals—it 's actually more important that we are seen to be upholding our duties under the all-wales safeguarding procedures . that 's what engenders trust in a professional workforce . jayne bryant am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you very much . we 're going to move on now to some questions about the importance of awareness raising from siân gwenllian . sian gwenllian am: good morning . in looking at your written evidence , you say that we must make it very clear to parents , guardians and the public that this legislation is not trying to criminalise parents , and that is clearly very important for you . how do you think we should do that and who should be doing that work ? sally jenkins: i think that 's really broad . obviously , colleagues in education , colleagues in social care , colleagues in preventative services , but also welsh government and the national assembly , in terms of those drivers in relation to that awareness raising are really , really key . if you look at some of the other campaigns that have been run , notably in relation to violence against women , domestic abuse and sexual violence , and echoing some of those building campaigns that have been done to raise awareness—i think those would be really good models to begin to consider in terms of how this is taken forward with awareness . we also know that there are a number of routes that we can go through in terms of raising awareness . we have existing preventative services , we have all our universal services , we have the regional safeguarding boards and the national safeguarding boards . so , there are a number of avenues that we could then explore . in terms of not wishing to criminalise , i think if we look at the numbers , they are very , very small . and i think one of the things we need to hold on to in this is a sense of proportion about what is or is n't likely to happen once or if this bill ever gets to the point of royal assent—they are small numbers who currently use this defence . it is about that wider issue of awareness raising , and using all of those avenues will help us to do that in the broadest sense . sian gwenllian am: do you , therefore , believe that this needs to be on the face of the bill ? that is , you do n't say this in your evidence . i 'd like to know your opinion on that . scotland is going to be making it a duty for scottish ministers to raise awareness of the impact of the bill . so far , the welsh government says that we do n't need to do that in wales . would n't it make it clearer for you if it was a clear duty on the face of the bill , for example as it was with the human transplantation ( wales ) act 2013 ? there was a duty in that act for ministers to promote transplantation . surely , that awareness raising aspect would be clearer for everyone if it was on the face of the bill . do you have an opinion on that ? huw david: well , welsh government have given that commitment , and i know the welsh government honour every commitment that they make— [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: that 's why i 'm asking . huw david: i do n't know whether that is necessary—i 'm not a legislator . i think that there 's obviously an inherent interest in welsh government raising awareness , because we have to raise awareness effectively for this to be successful , otherwise we will have parents who feel that they 're being criminalised , and that 's the last thing we want . i think it 's worthy of consideration , but , as i say , i 'm not a legislator or a lawyer , so i do n't know what implications that will have long term . but to be fair to welsh government , i think that commitment is one that i 'm sure will be honoured , because welsh government will want to make a success of this bill if it does receive royal assent . sian gwenllian am: okay . but is it clear who would pay for all of that ? huw david: i 've suddenly changed my mind— [ laughter . ] i think it should be a duty on welsh government ministers—absolutely . i do n't need to check with lawyers or legislators . there we go . and that 's the wlga position ; i do n't need to ask the other 21 leaders on that either . [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: would n't it make it clearer if there was a clear duty on the face of the bill that awareness raising had to happen ? it would be clearer , then , for local authorities and people in the front-line services what needs to happen . sally jenkins: i 'm going to echo huw . [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: i thought you might . okay , fine . lynne neagle am: okay . we 're moving on now , then , to the contentious issue of resources and we 've got some questions from hefin . hefin david am: sally jenkins , you said that the purpose of the bill is to bring clarity and to remove what is a little-used defence . is n't this an expensive way of doing that ? sally jenkins: i do n't think so , no . i think that our children deserve the best legislation . hefin david am: but introducing this legislation diverts finances from other areas of children 's services—or does n't ? sally jenkins: well , i would say , no , i do n't think it will divert resources from children 's services . firstly , going back to the comment made , i think , proportionally , this is a very small number of cases . it 's a very small number of existing cases that go through in terms of prosecution , or consideration for prosecution . we know that it 's likely , from some of the work that we 've already done , that it 's not opening floodgates for a sudden sea of referrals to children 's services—that 's not the way this is going to be , because the numbers are not out there because of the changes that have already happened in welsh family life and welsh society . so , i think as part of the implementation phase , we need to have a really clear understanding of the trajectory of those costs and what 's likely to happen over the first six months , 12 months in terms of people 's awareness and understanding and what is referred and how that 's worked . but in terms of a huge number , no , i do n't anticipate it being that . hefin david am: but the costs would n't just be directed to the number of referrals and the number of cases raised , it 's the cost around that , with training of staff , awareness—all those extra additional costs that always come with legislation . is it too much ? is it— ? sally jenkins: no . and i agree with that—that there clearly are—but if you think , many of those things will be aligned with work we are already doing , but it brings a clarity to that work . so , our teachers , our social workers , our health workers , our police officers already get substantial training around child protection , around safeguarding , around adverse childhood experiences and around a trauma-informed approach to children . what this does is it layers a clarity on that . but rather than having a part of that training , which has to deal with this as an aspect—that is no longer there ; it is a clear message for all professions . hefin david am: i fully appreciate that , and in the briefing note you 've given us , you 've outlined the pressures on social services . so , do you think this is another way of getting money into social services ? sally jenkins: if this was a way of getting money into— . i can think of better ways , but i do n't think this is it . no , i mean , i absolutely do not think that . i think this is a clear commitment to the rights of children in wales ; this is not about levering additional resources into children 's services . oh that it was so simple . hefin david am: okay . and , do you think those costs are quantifiable ? sally jenkins: i think we are currently looking at work and are doing work across my own local authority and across two others to look at breaking down those costs , not just for local authority , but also for health , for police and for children and family court advisory and support service cymru . so , there is work currently taking place to try to quantify those costs . hefin david am: okay . i think there was a bit about local authorities that siân— lynne neagle am: okay . siân gwenllian has got a question on resources . sian gwenllian am: yes , just to carry on from that , in a way . the explanatory memorandum that accompanies the bill talks about the unknown costs for different agencies . you mentioned there that you 're doing work around trying to identify some of those costs , but would n't it be useful if the explanatory memorandum did explain more about any unknown or unidentified costs , partly in order to calm some of those fears around that ? giving a title 'unidentified costs'—is that good enough ? sally jenkins: i think , clearly , that is a challenge , and that is work that we are participating in and are committed to completing with welsh government , to look at what those costs are . sian gwenllian am: and then they can be added into this . huw david: i think this is where it would be helpful in the committee 's deliberations and where our concern would be , because the reality is we 're not going to know what the costs are until it 's actually implemented , because we have n't implemented this before . and , therefore , i think there needs to be a commitment that , whatever the costs are , those costs are met because it is legislation that is being led by the national assembly for wales . and whilst we do n't see it as levering in additional resources , we do n't think it should be at the expense of current service provision to vulnerable families in wales , and therefore it 's important that it is properly and fully resourced . sian gwenllian am: what i would argue on that is that you have to try and forecast . you say it 's difficult to forecast how much this is going to cost , but we have to try and forecast that , and part of the argument for trying to have projections is to show that , perhaps , it 's not going to cost that much , and that would add to the argument that , 'okay , this is going to be fine to do and it 's not going to put too much pressure on us ' . or we need to know that this is going to cost a lot to do it effectively , and therefore you have to make your argument , then , 'well , we ca n't afford that , the money has to come from somewhere else . ' we have to get the costs , surely . huw david: yes , and we will work very closely with welsh government to try and establish those costs as quickly as possible . there will be some costs that we will be able to identify . so , for example , a campaign , an awareness-raising campaign , the marketing , if you like , but some of the other costs will be more difficult to establish in terms of the resource implications for front-line workers . i expressed a view that we need to see some additional investment in some of those programmes that are not targeted directly at families that would be impacted by this but support all families across wales that have different needs , and some of that provision is universal . obviously , my view is the more we put into that , the better . so , there 's no limit to that , but i suspect welsh government will take a very different view to that . but i think that is something where we need to see a commitment to some additional resources . but i do n't put an upper limit on that , because i do n't think there 's an authority in wales , and i do n't think there 's a charity , a police service or a health board in wales that does n't think that we need to do more of that and could offer more of that if the resources were available . sian gwenllian am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've come to the end of our time , so can i thank you all for attending and for answering all of our questions ? it 's been a really useful and informative discussion . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you again , all of you , for coming . huw david: and thank you for your questions and engagement . we welcome the opportunity . alastair birch: thank you very much . sally jenkins: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: okay , item 3 is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the minister for housing and local government—additional information for our inquiry into school funding . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for health and social services on in-patient child and adolescent mental health services provision , and i would like to briefly return to that when we go into private . are members happy to note those ? thank you . item 4 , then : can i propose a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? thank you .

the first question was about whether members of the public should be encouraged to contact social services departments if they saw a child being smacked . sally jenkins answered that they had a duty to report this . second question was about to what extent `` anyone accused or convicted of assaulting a child will be subject to long-term social services involvement in their family and social stigma '' accurately . sally jenkins said that this was not punitive approaches from social services , and their aim was to get in and get out , and let families find their own solutions . third question was about whether there was a need for legislation if natural behavior and the culture was changing . huw david mentioned that there was already existing legislation that covered those children who were abused by parents . however , the threshold was not clear enough for children . then they outlined the practical ways in which social services ' interaction with parents would change because of this proposed law . the last question was about the assessment of how this bill would impact on emergency and out of hours local authority services . sally jenkins said that they had out-of-hours provision and emergency duty teams already across wales that operate 24/7 . and there was no doubt that they exist and they work closely with police colleagues .

what sally jenkins answered to what extent was `` anyone accused or convicted of assaulting a child will be subject to long-term social services involvement in their family and social stigma '' accurately when discussing the implementation for social services ? </s> lynne neagle am: okay . good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from suzy davies and jack sargeant and i 'm very pleased to welcome jayne bryant back , who is substituting for jack today . are there any declarations of interest from members , please ? no . okay , thank you . item 2 , then , this morning , is our sixth scrutiny session on the children ( abolition of defence of reasonable punishment ) ( wales ) bill . i 'm very pleased to welcome our witnesses this morning : sally jenkins , who is chair of all wales heads of children ’ s services and is here representing the association of directors of social services ; alastair birch , who is senior system leader for equalities and safeguarding at pembrokeshire county council , who is here representing the association of directors of education wales ; and councillor huw david , who is the welsh local government association spokesperson for health and social care and leader of bridgend county borough council . so , thank you all for attending this morning . we 're very pleased to have you here . we 've got a lot of ground to cover , so , if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions and i 'll start just by asking about your general support for the bill , which is outlined in the evidence . can you just explain why you think the current law is ineffective or unclear ? alastair birch: bore da—bore da , bawb . so , i 'm alastair birch . the statement , really , from adew is that the rights of the child should be educated and achieved , really , under the united nations convention on the rights of the child . the current legislation has been criticised , obviously , by the un concerning the defence of reasonable punishment still being within our current legislation . so , we will always—adew will always—advocate that the rights of the child be upheld , so that is really the fundamental aspect in terms of the statement from adew , and the position of adew is that the rights of the child are fundamental in this process . and there are certain articles— . i know that the rights of children and young persons ( wales ) measure 2011 made sure that article 3 and article 4 , article 12 and article 37 were a focus in terms of making sure that the best interests of the child were put first , that children expressing their views and opinions was a priority . and we know , for safeguarding purposes , that the express opinions of the child and the voice of the child are a fundamental aspect of any safe environment , whether it be a school or college . so , that is—the position is really following that legal position under the rights of children and young persons ( wales ) measure . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . nothing to add at this stage , no ? sally jenkins: i 'll just add , on behalf of adss and on behalf of children 's services and social services more widely , for us , this is not a change in our position , this is not new ; this is a position that we , on behalf of the leaders of social services across wales , have taken over many years , going back 20 , 25 years . i think what we would say is that we really welcome this bill and we welcome the proposed change for the clarity it would bring—the clarity that it would bring for children , for parents and for professionals . i think what we would recognise is that this is a very little-used piece of legislation , so it 's rare , it 's not as if this is something that is going to cast great change across the scene for children and families in wales , but what it will do is represent a change in the reality of how we care and nurture our children . i would echo absolutely what alastair has said in terms of the rights of the child , but equally , in terms of all of our policies in wales in terms of promoting well-being for children , this has to be key . so , for us , this is about a natural progression of change in how we care for our children in wales . for children 's services at the very sharp end of this world , for us , it brings a true clarity . this continues with an ambiguity in how we treat our children and how we care for our children , and the shift for us brings that very much needed clarity . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the committee has already heard different views about whether there 's clear evidence that physical punishment is harmful to children . what evidence does the work of social services provide about whether physical punishment is actually harmful ? sally jenkins: obviously , what you 'll all be aware of is that , as part of the consultation for this bill , the public policy institute did a further piece of research to look at the impact of physical punishment on children . a number of things that we know—we know from across the world that the evidence is that introducing legislation or changing legislation in this way improves children 's positions within their families . what we know is that children themselves , as alastair has already referred to , really find physical punishment demeaning and harmful , and for children it is an emotionally damaging experience . now , there may be disagreement about that , there will be different views on that , but that 's the voice of the child in this debate . the voice of the child is very clear that physical punishment is for them harmful . i think what we would also say is that , in the world that we work in , it 's part of a continuum , and , whilst this is an element of how children are cared for , what we see is a continuum where an acceptance of how we treat children in a particular way perpetuates throughout our work . by changing this , it helps that shift to that absolute recognition that our children must be cared for in a way that is physically safe in all dimensions for them . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've had evidence from the equal protection network that the reasonable punishment defence undermines child protection and fails to protect children because it permits an arbitrary level of violence , which invades children 's physical integrity , making it a potential pathway to more serious physical or sexual abuse , and you did refer to that just now . is there anything you want to add on that ? sally jenkins: i would echo that . i think there is something in this that is about our culture , about how we see our children . it is about how we see our smallest and most vulnerable people , and if it is acceptable it opens the door to those other , more extreme versions of violence , which then complicates the issue for us . this is about clarity , and , whilst there is an argument that this is a small episode for a child , it 's not a small episode for a child , it is a major episode for a child , and i think absolutely , as you said , the potential for it then to lead on , and over gradation and time to increase the risk for children , is clearly there . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the final question from me : your written evidence emphasises the need for greater clarity around the definition of what constitutes corporal punishment , but that contrasts with what we 've been told by the children 's commissioner and the equal protection network , who 've emphasised the importance of simplicity in the bill . how do you respond to that view , and is what you 're calling for essential to be on the face of the bill ? sally jenkins: it 's not essential for it to be on the face of the bill . what we would like to see is discussion within the implementation phase for that nuancing . absolutely agree in terms of simplicity—i think that is really important—and i 've already mentioned clarity . what we do n't want to do is further confuse the position . we know that the legislation in different countries has done that , and there are ways that you can do it , but what we would welcome is an opportunity during the implementation phase for discussion . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . huw david: and , as a principle , obviously we would welcome full involvement , and we know there 's the commitment from welsh government to full involvement in the implementation , because , as with every piece of legislation , implementation is the most important part , and we would want to ensure there is that commitment to a major awareness-raising campaign , and there is that from welsh government , because we need to take families , carers and parents with us on this . also we need to ensure that there is that support available to parents and carers that do sometimes struggle with parenting , and that needs to be a universal offer across wales . if we 're to progress with this , that has to be an option that is offered to every parent in wales . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . sally jenkins: local authorities have already been very heavily involved in terms of looking at this bill and exploring what the issues are and the discussions and looking at what the implications from a local authority perspective will be , as huw describes , both in terms of the awareness raising , early support and intervention and prevention services for families against the backdrop of the current issues that we have in local government , but also awareness raising—because absolutely it is key that families come with us on this journey . this is not an imposition . this is embracing a culture and a value system for our children . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . i 've got some questions now from dawn bowden on the implementation of the bill . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . so , you 've pre-empted me , huw . huw david: right . sorry . i 've got good eyesight ; i ca n't see— . [ laughter . ] dawn bowden am: you 've already said , obviously , that you 're looking towards working with welsh government in terms of its implementation . what 's been your role so far in terms of the implementation of the bill—local authorities generally , now ? have you had a role ? has welsh government been involving you in discussions around the introduction of the bill so far ? huw david: yes . so , obviously we were consulted—a key consultee—but also our officials have worked very closely with welsh government officials to make sure this is implemented successfully , if it is progressed . sally jenkins: our involvement with this , from a social services perspective , goes back over two years , directly in working towards this point , never mind the history in terms of work towards this area . but , very directly in relation to this bill , we were first involved at least two years ago , to recollect , and that was in a series of workshops with other agencies , for example children and family court advisory and support service cymru and the police , and looking in real depth at what the implications would be for us as agencies to look at what the likely trajectory would be in terms of our pathways for referral into our services and what that might mean for us . and then particularly , for example , with cafcass cymru in relation to private law , what the fallout might be , and then what , if anything—and that 's the discussion that we need to have—that could mean for children 's services in particular , given the pressures that we 're already under . so , we 've been in constant , i suppose , involvement in terms of the bill already , as part of the consultation , in terms of the focus groups and in terms of direct work with welsh government officials to take this forward . and we are absolutely committed to continuing with that work . dawn bowden am: okay . you touched there on the pressures that you 're already under , which we fully appreciate , but you also mentioned in answers to lynne neagle earlier on that you welcomed the bill in terms of its clarity . so , are you confident that the bill can be implemented without any major impact on your capacity to deal with it ? sally jenkins: we 've done— . a number of local authorities—my own included , newport city council , has done some work to look at what the likely impact would be and then actually to look at what some of that costing would need to be . further work is needed on that area , and that needs to be carried out during the implementation phase . i think what we 've done is we 've looked internationally at what the impact has been elsewhere when similar legislation has been introduced to try and gauge , but that 's difficult to do in terms of comparable nations and size and also different systems . and obviously our approach in terms of children and pedagogy is very different from some of the nations that have already done this . i would n't like to say one way or the other , because i think , in terms of that culture shift , it could be a double impact on us in terms of increased referrals because of increased awareness , but it could also be , i suppose , as huw alludes to , that , if we 're looking at ensuring greater awareness of preventative services and support services for parents , actually people coming to the fore and asking us for those services as well . so , at this stage , i think what we would want to say is that we continue to be fully involved in the implementation phase , to look at what the cost implications for that could be , and not just for the local authorities but also the police , cafcass cymru , for third sector organisations involved in preventative services . i do n't think any of that should undermine the position in terms of children and their rights within our society . so , a difficult answer , in the sense that— dawn bowden am: no , i understand . what you 're saying is that this is a piece of legislation that , in your view , is a good piece of legislation . it 's setting out to , hopefully , achieve what the purpose of it is and you will deliver what you need to . can i ask you whether , then , you 've also given thought to the impact on—we 've talked about social services , but the impact on other services , like housing , education and so on ? you 're obviously coming at it from slightly different angles in other sections . alastair birch: we are part of the universal service for children , and we very much work in co-operation with the wlga and our social care colleagues , and we 've been part of that consultation . in terms of education , the main changes , or adaptations , would be around training and awareness . and , in terms of the bill , there needs to be the clarity—ambiguity would be bad—in terms of making sure that safeguarding leads within all schools have the right training and support . so , really , that 's the key element there , and then obviously the preventative services for the parents that schools can signpost , and sometimes possibly even host , in terms of being community schools . these positive parenting approaches that— . i have colleagues who have worked in that area for many years and see the benefits in how those positive parenting approaches make a difference to families . dawn bowden am: so , from your point of view , it 's awareness raising , is it ? alastair birch: it 's awareness raising ; it 's making sure that professionals are fully briefed on necessary changes , that there 's very little ambiguity , that we are aware that— . we still have that duty to report whenever there is any safeguarding concern . that 'll still be part of the all-wales child protection procedures . that wo n't change , and that duty is always going to be there for all our professionals . but that awareness raising and training will be the key , and then , obviously , working in co-operation with our colleagues . dawn bowden am: okay , i understand that . have you been given an indication of how long you 've got between royal assent and implementation , and whether you 've thought through any of the key milestones that need to be implemented ? sally jenkins: there 's a group proposed that would be a strategic leadership group in the steering group that we 're part of , which is now laying out what would happen after royal assent if that is given . so , we will work towards that . dawn bowden am: okay . my final question , chair , is about some of the responses we 've had to this committee that say that the state should not get involved in family life—i 'm sure you 've heard those views—unless it 's in the most serious circumstances . to what extent do you think that this bill undermines the existing local authority responsibilities , or do n't you ? huw david: the state 's paramount role is to protect children from harm . that is our legal responsibility , it 's our moral responsibility , and we will discharge that . and there is obviously a view—it 's a view that is enshrined in the un convention on the rights of the child—that physical punishment , physical harm to a child is harm to a child , and we should be preventing that and act to prevent that . that would be the position of the welsh local government association , and we also respect the mandate that members of the national assembly for wales have too . and we believe that children can be raised by parents without recourse to physical punishment , effectively , and we 'd support parents in that . we do not believe that in the 50 nations across the world where such legislation exists that the state is interfering in family life unnecessarily . we believe this action reflects a cultural change , a sea change that 's taken place in wales over the last 30 to 40 years , where the vast majority of parents now say that they do not use it themselves , they do not support it , and we believe this is actually a reflection of what has happened in welsh society . we support assembly members in the view that the natural progression of that is that children 's rights are protected across wales . dawn bowden am: so , i 've got largely positive feedback from you in terms of the bill and its intentions , and so on . do you foresee any unintended consequences for this bill ? huw david: if we implement it carefully , if we implement it with the right resources , then i hope not . i think not . but as with every piece of legislation , it is about the implementation , it is about the cultural change as well , and that 's why i can not overstress the importance of making sure that resources are made available , because our social services departments—children 's social services in particular—are overstretched . they are at breaking point—make no bones about it—and they are dealing with children who are facing serious harm and neglect . we are having record numbers of contacts from police , from teachers , from doctors and , of course , from children themselves who are experiencing that harm and neglect . and obviously , we want to focus our energy and our attention on those children . equally , though , we do n't want to lose sight of those families and children that are experiencing significant problems , but who we want to support through our early intervention and prevention programmes , and that is why it is important that there is investment in those programmes , so that children do not end up in that terrible position where we have to , for their safety , take them from their birth families to protect them . and the reality is , in wales , that we are doing that to more children than we 've done for a long time , and the numbers are growing across wales . and that is only because of the most appalling neglect and abuse , because there is no way that any judge would permit us to act to make a child safe if it was not for that fact , and the facts are there . so , i do n't want that focus to be lost , but , of course , we welcome and understand the need to progress this piece of legislation . dawn bowden am: that rise that you talk about here , is that due to more interventions , greater awareness , more incidents ? i 'm trying to link this to the bill in terms of whether the bill is actually going to give you more work to do in those areas . sally jenkins: on the reasons for the rise in the numbers of looked-after children in wales , which are higher than those in england , and also the numbers of contacts that we have across the local authorities , the work of the care crisis review , which was completed last year ; the work of isabelle trowler , who 's the chief social worker in england ; countless research and reports that have taken place in the last 18 months ; and currently the public law working group , under the auspices of the president of the family court , would all indicate that it 's multifactorial . so , what you have is a range of reasons that have led to the increasing numbers of children becoming looked after across england and wales . what you ca n't do is identify a single reason . there have been headlines that have said , 'is it increased austerity ? ' that is clearly a part of this . is it in wales an increased awareness of adverse childhood experiences and the emphasis of the impact on children of , for example , domestic abuse ? is it because of our understanding of what happens to children in those households ? all of that research would say it 's all of those things . and then , when you also add in changes in our practice with our colleagues in the judiciary , changes in our police service , but also changes in our preventative services , you 've got that whole range of elements . and there is going on across the local authorities and welsh government a huge amount of work to try to address and understand that , and then to ameliorate that . children who need to be in care for safety need to be in care , but what we have to do is get to a point where fewer children come into care and we 're able to protect them , firstly , and secondly where those children who are in care are cared for in a way that delivers the best possible outcomes for them . so , there is no simple answer unfortunately . i think , in terms of this bill and unintended consequences , i agree absolutely with everything that huw has said . my job is around children at that far end , but what this bill does is it brings clarity . it brings a clarity even for those children at that very far end . it takes away even that point of discussion that this could possibly be okay , and i think that 's important to hang on to . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . sorry . alastair birch: one unintended consequences is that i think that there will be an increased focus on the uncrc . and , in terms of children having a discussion around this point , children need to be part of that discussion . it 's something that affects them . and a key aspect of education is the voice of the child . it has become significantly— . it 's changed completely in the last 10 years , and it is one of the key things in terms of us driving improvements . dawn bowden am: would that be something that you would be looking to do in schools ? alastair birch: anything that improves the voice of the child in any educational context is good and it 's very powerful for the children . and it improves their educational experiences , encouraging the opportunities for them to discuss the issues , the adverse childhood experiences that they encounter , which are significant , and it 's our educational professionals that are facing this day-in , day-out . they 've become a very highly trained workforce , they 're ace aware , they 're trauma aware , and anything that focuses , even increases , their professionalism and understanding around a particular point , and also— . so it 's a positive unintended consequence , shall we say , that it could reinvigorate some of the voice of the child discussion within various contexts . dawn bowden am: okay . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: we 've got some specific questions now on implementation for social services , from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . if this bill becomes law , would you encourage members of the public to contact social services departments if they do see a child being smacked ? sally jenkins: we already encourage members of the public to contact social services or the police , depending on the circumstances . interestingly , i 'm picking— janet finch-saunders am: what , if a child is being smacked now ? sally jenkins: yes . if a child is being smacked now , we would ask that people contact . we have a duty to report , as professionals . but if you were walking out , and you saw something happening to a child , in the same way as if you saw something to an adult . janet finch-saunders am: right . sally jenkins: so , i think that the challenge is about—we 've all probably , sadly , witnessed incidents in the doctor 's reception , or in a supermarket , and we 've failed to do something about it . and i think we then walk away and feel pretty guilty about that , realistically , when you see something happening to a child in a particular circumstance . i think we ca n't ignore the fact that a child is being assaulted in those circumstances . janet finch-saunders am: okay . thank you . a campaign opposing this bill , be reasonable wales , have said that 'if the law is changed , the consequences for parents will be considerable . ' it also says , 'anyone accused or convicted of assaulting a child—under the new definition— ' so , i suppose you could argue , a minor tap— 'will be subject to long-term social services involvement in their family and social stigma . ' to what extent is this accurate , and , also , will thresholds for social services intervention change if the bill is enacted ? sally jenkins: there are a number of parts to that . firstly , in terms of long-term social services intervention in a family 's life , i think , for people to be fully aware of the very few numbers of families where we have long-term intervention currently , even where there is what would be perceived as very significant abuse . what we do is we go in for short periods in families ' lives , to support them to work with their strengths , to work with them and their family members . it 's not about us going into families , whatever some of the public perception may be . our aim is to get in and get out . so , in terms of long-term intervention , what we want is for families to find their own solutions . we want families to be able to work with each other , and together , and local community support , and preventative services , to be able to address issues . this is not about punitive approaches from social services . so , that 's the first element . in terms of thresholds for children 's services , we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us . there may be a small number of referrals that come through . what we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle . we recognise that 's likely to happen . because we also know that this is actually quite a rare occurrence currently ; this is not a defence that 's being used with great frequency , this is not something that is happening . and if we look at the data , we know that the incidents of children , and the number of parents who now recognise this as an acceptable form of punishment , has steadily declined over the last 15 to 20 years . so it 's diminishing as it is . janet finch-saunders am: so , on that one then , is there a need for legislation that will—obviously there 'll be resources for the welsh government and there 'll be resources out of hours and things like that—is there a need for legislation if , as you say , natural behaviour and the culture is changing ? let 's be honest , as you 've rightly pointed out , in social services—i know in my own authority—in your own authority , you 're saying that even now you 're working with the police , on systematic failings within the system . sally jenkins: two things . firstly , we want legislation that reflects our society—we do n't want the two to be out of kilter . that would be my first natural response : surely our legislation should be reflective of what our world is . it should n't be that we 've got these rather confusing elements running in parallel , and that continues to perpetuate a lack of clarity and the ambiguity that we currently see . i think the other element is that , again , this is about potentially an accelerating of that awareness and that culture in our society , about how we care for our children . we 've got there naturally ; we 've got there by the change that 's happened in wales over the last 15 to 20 years . what this does is to continue with that change and continue with that awareness and understanding of how we positively , from a strength-based approach , should care for our children , bearing in mind what 's required of us in terms of the uncrc . janet finch-saunders am: okay . are there any comments from anyone else ? huw david: simply to say that i think that , in terms of that clarity for the very vulnerable children out there who are currently being assaulted—seriously assaulted and abused by their parents , which goes on on a daily basis—that is already covered by existing legislation . but at the moment , they do n't know , because they could be being told—and they probably are being told—by their parents that 's it 's okay , that they can smack their child and that that 's acceptable . they do n't know the difference . a young child is not going to know that difference and there is confusion about what is— . and if you asked most parents , and in fact lots of professionals , they would not be able to tell you , and probably most of you would n't be able to tell me exactly where is the threshold— janet finch-saunders am: yes , where 's that line . huw david: well , at the moment , we do n't know where that line is . that vulnerable child , at home , being abused by their parents , does not know where that line is . and they should know where that line is because then they can pick up the phone to childline or they can talk to a professional and ask them where that line is . so , that would be a step forward . i do recognise , though , that what we do n't want to do—and the last thing any of us want to do—is criminalise parents who are bringing up their children . that is why we 're saying there needs to be an emphasis on the support programmes that are available to parents . and to be clear , there is no way that we want long-term involvement in any child 's life , but particularly not in the lives of children who have been smacked by their parents . that is not going to be the result of this legislation , trust me , because we do n't want to be involved in—we have n't got the resources to be involved in children 's lives . the social worker or the police officer—if they become involved , then there would be a proportionate response to that , and there 'll also be a test about whether or not that is progressed . so , if there is an allegation—if this legislation is passed—then that will be looked into and a consideration will be made about whether any action will be taken , and as with any allegation of the law being broken , there would be a proportionate response , as there is now . lynne neagle am: and the next question does relate to the practical response to that . janet . janet finch-saunders am: yes . can you outline the practical ways in which social services ' interaction with parents will change as a result of this proposed law and do you envisage that all referrals to the police will be automatically referred to social services for an assessment ? who 's going to make those decisions ? sally jenkins: that will be part of the implementation phase about that decision making . interestingly , the number of referrals that we currently get from the police that we take absolutely no action on is extraordinary . so , we get a very , very large number of— . it will be happening now ; sitting in the civic centre in newport city council will be a whole host of social workers taking in the public protection notifications from overnight . it 's 10 o'clock , so they 're assessing them now , as we speak . and an awful lot of those will have no further action from the local authority . janet finch-saunders am: but will they be investigated ? sally jenkins: no . there will be no action . there are countless referrals made by agencies to local authorities that we take no action on . janet finch-saunders am: so , if there 's an increase as a result of greater awareness— sally jenkins: what happens is there is a paper assessment of them . there 's a look at what 's happened , who 's involved , what the police have reported , and there 's work being done with the police to improve that . because one of the things that we want to get to is actually where we 're not using huge amounts of time to look at that , but what comes to us is what we act on . so , there is work going on with a number of police authorities to look at how you improve that process . but i suppose , to pick up , each incident will be looked at , each one will be assessed in a way that is proportionate , as huw says , to look at what 's happened and then investigated . lynne neagle am: sally , can you give us a couple of examples of what kind of things might have come in that you would then take no action on ? sally jenkins: we get countless referrals , for example , where there 's been a domestic abuse incident overnight where a child was n't present in the property and we then have n't taken action . it ’ ll be where the level of harm that ’ s perceived to happen to that child is below the threshold for intervention from children 's services . janet finch-saunders am: i ’ m pretty cynical about assessment , because , you know , i have people come in who are benefit claimants where , when they ’ ve been assessed , the whole process has been very flawed and i ’ ve had to fight and fight and fight on their behalf . so— sally jenkins: assessment processes within social— janet finch-saunders am: but if you 're struggling now with those assessments— sally jenkins: assessment processes within social services are as laid out in the social services and well-being ( wales ) act 2014. so , we have within what we carry out , i suppose , that kind of initial look , that look at the information , what else do we know about that family— janet finch-saunders am: and are they qualified people that are doing this ? sally jenkins: yes , absolutely . huw david: and , in fact , in lots of places in wales now , it ’ s a multi-agency assessment . so , it ’ s a joint assessment carried out with police professionals and health professionals . janet finch-saunders am: so , what proportion currently would you not be taking any action on , if a report came in of some domestic abuse where a child had perhaps been smacked ? sally jenkins: if something came in to us where a child had been smacked and there was something clearly there , we would look at it . we would clearly look at it and we would take some sort of action . janet finch-saunders am: even now , before the legislation ? sally jenkins: yes . lynne neagle am: can you ask a final question ? and i 'm going to have to appeal for brief answers , because we 've got a lot of ground to cover . huw david: just very quickly , there may be no action from social services , but it doesn ’ t mean that we don ’ t offer support . so , the expectation is that support is offered in those circumstances from family support services , for example— sally jenkins: or prevention . huw david: —or prevention services . so , we would not say , if we were aware , for example , that there was domestic abuse at a home , ‘ there ’ s no role for children ’ s social services ’ , because there may be an assessment that that child may not be at immediate risk of harm , but we would obviously recognise that there are causes for concern there and we would offer that support . so , just to be clear about that . and that ’ s a process that happens in every social services department in the uk , and it ’ s happened for a very long time , and , in fact , it ’ s reflective of the legislation that you have laid down as assembly members . lynne neagle am: and are those services there , huw ? because i ’ m very acutely aware of the pressure on local government . are the services there ? is there sufficient resource in things like families first ? because what i ’ m hearing on the ground is that eligibility is changing for even those preventative services . huw david: there ’ s not enough of those services , and , obviously—you may have heard me saying this before—i think we need to invest more in those services , and i hope you invest more in the services , because , obviously , prevention is better than cure . and those pressures that sally talked about earlier are pressures that are not going away ; they ’ re only increasing by the day , actually , and i would want us to be able to offer those services now . because that example of a child that perhaps is in a home where there is domestic abuse—we ’ ll probably have another referral off them in a couple of months ’ time , and that could escalate . and what i ’ d rather do is provide support to that family and try and stop that family breaking down so that , in six months , we 're not going back and saying that we 've got to take this child into care because the domestic abuse has worsened and that child is at risk . but those services need additional investment . sally jenkins: i appreciate that time is of the essence , but , just really quickly in relation to that , it ’ s not just social services . so , for example , there are developments like encompass , which is a piece of work that is being rolled out across gwent and across other areas , which is where the police automatically notify the school overnight of an incident , not expecting the school to do anything per se , but to be aware , to be able to offer care for that child . alastair birch: can i add to that ? operation encompass i know in gwent has been operational , and we started it in pembrokeshire 18 months ago . we as a local authority—and it ’ ll be education that will contact the school around the domestic incident happening , and the school as part of that protocol will provide a level of universal service support for that child when they come in , before 9 o ’ clock , so that professionals are aware of the needs of the welfare of that child at that point . so , you know , schools play a key role in the universal service of this and we work very closely with our social care colleagues on that . lynne neagle am: okay . janet , your last question , please . janet finch-saunders am: the bill 's explanatory memorandum refers to an estimate of 274 offences annually where lawful chastisement was used as a defence or considered . it says there is also potential to create extra demand on out-of-hours social services teams due to the time that the offences were reported , and in order to support safeguarding measures . have you assessed how this bill will impact on emergency and out-of-hours local authority services ? sally jenkins: we have considered that , and again i think that 's something that we would very much want to look at as part of implementation . we have out-of-hours provision , we have emergency duty teams already across wales that operate 24/7 . there 's no doubt that they exist and they work very closely with our police colleagues . janet finch-saunders am: are they overstretched at the moment ? sally jenkins: i think in the same way as all of social services is . if we were offered additional resource , we are going to take that . but are they working in a way that protects children day in , day out , and vulnerable adults ? yes , they are , and they will continue to do so . lynne neagle am: thank you very much . we 've got some specific questions now on the impact on education from jayne bryant . jayne bryant am: thank you , chair . good morning . alastair , you 've already mentioned about awareness raising and training , which will be key with educational professionals . how confident are you that teachers and others working in those educational settings will be clear about how to support the implementation of this bill , if enacted ? alastair birch: training requirements for all professionals in education settings are clear . the universal tier 1 training is there , and all local authorities in wales will implement that . in that level of general safeguarding awareness and training , the infinite emphasis is on the duty to report . that will remain the same . the thresholds for social care , that 's their responsibility . that duty to report will always be there . it says in 'keeping learners safe ' , which is the bible in terms of education professionals , that there 's a responsibility on the professional to make that referral and for that universal service . so , the more specialist safeguarding leads within the schools , who have become highly skilled professionals in terms of understanding what might be significant harm—because that 's what we 're talking about—they understand the legalities when a referral needs to be made . there 's always the collation of safeguarding information , where there might be just general concerns about neglect and other areas , which combined would create a picture that there might be significant neglect or significant harm to the child , and then that referral would be made to the child care assessment team or the police . so , that awareness—it needs to be clear for educational professionals that that duty to report is always there . if they believe that that significant harm has happened then that report then goes to the child care assessment team . they will make the judgment on the threshold because they are the professionals . they have the multi-agency awareness of how that meets the threshold . but in terms of education , it 'll be that awareness , making sure that there 's clarity . if there 's anything that professionals need to be trained additionally on , it 'll need to go into 'keeping learners safe ' , which at the moment is being rewritten . so , there would have to be some new possible information there relating to this . but as long as there 's clarity , and once that implementation phase and the discussion has happened , as long as it 's clear for professionals that the duty is always there and they feel a significant harm , then that report will always be there and will always need to be made . it 's making sure—and i 'll echo what my colleague said , huw—that the services are key for families . schools are absolutely fundamental in that support for the families . they have those relationships with the families . i know there was discussion around professional trust . on a daily basis , professionals are working on that trust with parents , because they are the ones that can engage with those families . the family support officers that are working on the ground with highly complex families , with multiple leads and supporting the children—they are fundamental , and investment in that level of support would also help our colleagues as well . so , anything that 's preventative . that is already happening in schools and is effective , and is shown to be effective , and has an evidence base—we 'd always support that that would continue to be invested in . so , that 's really my answer . jayne bryant am: okay . and you were saying about how important trust is as well , but do you think that there 's a risk that those in education settings will have a key role in referring more parents to social services , which some have said could cause potential harm to relationships and cause mistrust ? alastair birch: i do n't think it 's a matter of mistrust—it 's a matter of , you know , if a professional believes , based on the evidence that they have , because they 're working with that child every day , that there is significant harm to that child , they are under a duty to report that to social care . so , part of the work is with families , and most of the referrals we make are with parental consent . that consent is a key element of this , and conversation with our social care colleagues is usually , 'you need to speak to the parents again and have a conversation with them . ' some of the nfas—the ones that do n't get referred at threshold—it will come back to school for , possibly , some support from the family or a team around the family or some other aspect . so , i do n't think— . the trust in the professionals—it 's actually more important that we are seen to be upholding our duties under the all-wales safeguarding procedures . that 's what engenders trust in a professional workforce . jayne bryant am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you very much . we 're going to move on now to some questions about the importance of awareness raising from siân gwenllian . sian gwenllian am: good morning . in looking at your written evidence , you say that we must make it very clear to parents , guardians and the public that this legislation is not trying to criminalise parents , and that is clearly very important for you . how do you think we should do that and who should be doing that work ? sally jenkins: i think that 's really broad . obviously , colleagues in education , colleagues in social care , colleagues in preventative services , but also welsh government and the national assembly , in terms of those drivers in relation to that awareness raising are really , really key . if you look at some of the other campaigns that have been run , notably in relation to violence against women , domestic abuse and sexual violence , and echoing some of those building campaigns that have been done to raise awareness—i think those would be really good models to begin to consider in terms of how this is taken forward with awareness . we also know that there are a number of routes that we can go through in terms of raising awareness . we have existing preventative services , we have all our universal services , we have the regional safeguarding boards and the national safeguarding boards . so , there are a number of avenues that we could then explore . in terms of not wishing to criminalise , i think if we look at the numbers , they are very , very small . and i think one of the things we need to hold on to in this is a sense of proportion about what is or is n't likely to happen once or if this bill ever gets to the point of royal assent—they are small numbers who currently use this defence . it is about that wider issue of awareness raising , and using all of those avenues will help us to do that in the broadest sense . sian gwenllian am: do you , therefore , believe that this needs to be on the face of the bill ? that is , you do n't say this in your evidence . i 'd like to know your opinion on that . scotland is going to be making it a duty for scottish ministers to raise awareness of the impact of the bill . so far , the welsh government says that we do n't need to do that in wales . would n't it make it clearer for you if it was a clear duty on the face of the bill , for example as it was with the human transplantation ( wales ) act 2013 ? there was a duty in that act for ministers to promote transplantation . surely , that awareness raising aspect would be clearer for everyone if it was on the face of the bill . do you have an opinion on that ? huw david: well , welsh government have given that commitment , and i know the welsh government honour every commitment that they make— [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: that 's why i 'm asking . huw david: i do n't know whether that is necessary—i 'm not a legislator . i think that there 's obviously an inherent interest in welsh government raising awareness , because we have to raise awareness effectively for this to be successful , otherwise we will have parents who feel that they 're being criminalised , and that 's the last thing we want . i think it 's worthy of consideration , but , as i say , i 'm not a legislator or a lawyer , so i do n't know what implications that will have long term . but to be fair to welsh government , i think that commitment is one that i 'm sure will be honoured , because welsh government will want to make a success of this bill if it does receive royal assent . sian gwenllian am: okay . but is it clear who would pay for all of that ? huw david: i 've suddenly changed my mind— [ laughter . ] i think it should be a duty on welsh government ministers—absolutely . i do n't need to check with lawyers or legislators . there we go . and that 's the wlga position ; i do n't need to ask the other 21 leaders on that either . [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: would n't it make it clearer if there was a clear duty on the face of the bill that awareness raising had to happen ? it would be clearer , then , for local authorities and people in the front-line services what needs to happen . sally jenkins: i 'm going to echo huw . [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: i thought you might . okay , fine . lynne neagle am: okay . we 're moving on now , then , to the contentious issue of resources and we 've got some questions from hefin . hefin david am: sally jenkins , you said that the purpose of the bill is to bring clarity and to remove what is a little-used defence . is n't this an expensive way of doing that ? sally jenkins: i do n't think so , no . i think that our children deserve the best legislation . hefin david am: but introducing this legislation diverts finances from other areas of children 's services—or does n't ? sally jenkins: well , i would say , no , i do n't think it will divert resources from children 's services . firstly , going back to the comment made , i think , proportionally , this is a very small number of cases . it 's a very small number of existing cases that go through in terms of prosecution , or consideration for prosecution . we know that it 's likely , from some of the work that we 've already done , that it 's not opening floodgates for a sudden sea of referrals to children 's services—that 's not the way this is going to be , because the numbers are not out there because of the changes that have already happened in welsh family life and welsh society . so , i think as part of the implementation phase , we need to have a really clear understanding of the trajectory of those costs and what 's likely to happen over the first six months , 12 months in terms of people 's awareness and understanding and what is referred and how that 's worked . but in terms of a huge number , no , i do n't anticipate it being that . hefin david am: but the costs would n't just be directed to the number of referrals and the number of cases raised , it 's the cost around that , with training of staff , awareness—all those extra additional costs that always come with legislation . is it too much ? is it— ? sally jenkins: no . and i agree with that—that there clearly are—but if you think , many of those things will be aligned with work we are already doing , but it brings a clarity to that work . so , our teachers , our social workers , our health workers , our police officers already get substantial training around child protection , around safeguarding , around adverse childhood experiences and around a trauma-informed approach to children . what this does is it layers a clarity on that . but rather than having a part of that training , which has to deal with this as an aspect—that is no longer there ; it is a clear message for all professions . hefin david am: i fully appreciate that , and in the briefing note you 've given us , you 've outlined the pressures on social services . so , do you think this is another way of getting money into social services ? sally jenkins: if this was a way of getting money into— . i can think of better ways , but i do n't think this is it . no , i mean , i absolutely do not think that . i think this is a clear commitment to the rights of children in wales ; this is not about levering additional resources into children 's services . oh that it was so simple . hefin david am: okay . and , do you think those costs are quantifiable ? sally jenkins: i think we are currently looking at work and are doing work across my own local authority and across two others to look at breaking down those costs , not just for local authority , but also for health , for police and for children and family court advisory and support service cymru . so , there is work currently taking place to try to quantify those costs . hefin david am: okay . i think there was a bit about local authorities that siân— lynne neagle am: okay . siân gwenllian has got a question on resources . sian gwenllian am: yes , just to carry on from that , in a way . the explanatory memorandum that accompanies the bill talks about the unknown costs for different agencies . you mentioned there that you 're doing work around trying to identify some of those costs , but would n't it be useful if the explanatory memorandum did explain more about any unknown or unidentified costs , partly in order to calm some of those fears around that ? giving a title 'unidentified costs'—is that good enough ? sally jenkins: i think , clearly , that is a challenge , and that is work that we are participating in and are committed to completing with welsh government , to look at what those costs are . sian gwenllian am: and then they can be added into this . huw david: i think this is where it would be helpful in the committee 's deliberations and where our concern would be , because the reality is we 're not going to know what the costs are until it 's actually implemented , because we have n't implemented this before . and , therefore , i think there needs to be a commitment that , whatever the costs are , those costs are met because it is legislation that is being led by the national assembly for wales . and whilst we do n't see it as levering in additional resources , we do n't think it should be at the expense of current service provision to vulnerable families in wales , and therefore it 's important that it is properly and fully resourced . sian gwenllian am: what i would argue on that is that you have to try and forecast . you say it 's difficult to forecast how much this is going to cost , but we have to try and forecast that , and part of the argument for trying to have projections is to show that , perhaps , it 's not going to cost that much , and that would add to the argument that , 'okay , this is going to be fine to do and it 's not going to put too much pressure on us ' . or we need to know that this is going to cost a lot to do it effectively , and therefore you have to make your argument , then , 'well , we ca n't afford that , the money has to come from somewhere else . ' we have to get the costs , surely . huw david: yes , and we will work very closely with welsh government to try and establish those costs as quickly as possible . there will be some costs that we will be able to identify . so , for example , a campaign , an awareness-raising campaign , the marketing , if you like , but some of the other costs will be more difficult to establish in terms of the resource implications for front-line workers . i expressed a view that we need to see some additional investment in some of those programmes that are not targeted directly at families that would be impacted by this but support all families across wales that have different needs , and some of that provision is universal . obviously , my view is the more we put into that , the better . so , there 's no limit to that , but i suspect welsh government will take a very different view to that . but i think that is something where we need to see a commitment to some additional resources . but i do n't put an upper limit on that , because i do n't think there 's an authority in wales , and i do n't think there 's a charity , a police service or a health board in wales that does n't think that we need to do more of that and could offer more of that if the resources were available . sian gwenllian am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've come to the end of our time , so can i thank you all for attending and for answering all of our questions ? it 's been a really useful and informative discussion . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you again , all of you , for coming . huw david: and thank you for your questions and engagement . we welcome the opportunity . alastair birch: thank you very much . sally jenkins: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: okay , item 3 is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the minister for housing and local government—additional information for our inquiry into school funding . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for health and social services on in-patient child and adolescent mental health services provision , and i would like to briefly return to that when we go into private . are members happy to note those ? thank you . item 4 , then : can i propose a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? thank you .

first , sally jenkins made it clear that very few numbers of families where they had long-term intervention currently . what they do was they go in for short periods in families ' lives to work with them and their family members . their aim was to get in and get out . in terms of long-term intervention , they wanted families to find their own solutions . to conclude , this was not a punitive approach from social services .

summarize huw david ' s opinion on whether there was a need for legislation if natural behavior and the culture is changing when discussing the implementation for social services . </s> lynne neagle am: okay . good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from suzy davies and jack sargeant and i 'm very pleased to welcome jayne bryant back , who is substituting for jack today . are there any declarations of interest from members , please ? no . okay , thank you . item 2 , then , this morning , is our sixth scrutiny session on the children ( abolition of defence of reasonable punishment ) ( wales ) bill . i 'm very pleased to welcome our witnesses this morning : sally jenkins , who is chair of all wales heads of children ’ s services and is here representing the association of directors of social services ; alastair birch , who is senior system leader for equalities and safeguarding at pembrokeshire county council , who is here representing the association of directors of education wales ; and councillor huw david , who is the welsh local government association spokesperson for health and social care and leader of bridgend county borough council . so , thank you all for attending this morning . we 're very pleased to have you here . we 've got a lot of ground to cover , so , if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions and i 'll start just by asking about your general support for the bill , which is outlined in the evidence . can you just explain why you think the current law is ineffective or unclear ? alastair birch: bore da—bore da , bawb . so , i 'm alastair birch . the statement , really , from adew is that the rights of the child should be educated and achieved , really , under the united nations convention on the rights of the child . the current legislation has been criticised , obviously , by the un concerning the defence of reasonable punishment still being within our current legislation . so , we will always—adew will always—advocate that the rights of the child be upheld , so that is really the fundamental aspect in terms of the statement from adew , and the position of adew is that the rights of the child are fundamental in this process . and there are certain articles— . i know that the rights of children and young persons ( wales ) measure 2011 made sure that article 3 and article 4 , article 12 and article 37 were a focus in terms of making sure that the best interests of the child were put first , that children expressing their views and opinions was a priority . and we know , for safeguarding purposes , that the express opinions of the child and the voice of the child are a fundamental aspect of any safe environment , whether it be a school or college . so , that is—the position is really following that legal position under the rights of children and young persons ( wales ) measure . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . nothing to add at this stage , no ? sally jenkins: i 'll just add , on behalf of adss and on behalf of children 's services and social services more widely , for us , this is not a change in our position , this is not new ; this is a position that we , on behalf of the leaders of social services across wales , have taken over many years , going back 20 , 25 years . i think what we would say is that we really welcome this bill and we welcome the proposed change for the clarity it would bring—the clarity that it would bring for children , for parents and for professionals . i think what we would recognise is that this is a very little-used piece of legislation , so it 's rare , it 's not as if this is something that is going to cast great change across the scene for children and families in wales , but what it will do is represent a change in the reality of how we care and nurture our children . i would echo absolutely what alastair has said in terms of the rights of the child , but equally , in terms of all of our policies in wales in terms of promoting well-being for children , this has to be key . so , for us , this is about a natural progression of change in how we care for our children in wales . for children 's services at the very sharp end of this world , for us , it brings a true clarity . this continues with an ambiguity in how we treat our children and how we care for our children , and the shift for us brings that very much needed clarity . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the committee has already heard different views about whether there 's clear evidence that physical punishment is harmful to children . what evidence does the work of social services provide about whether physical punishment is actually harmful ? sally jenkins: obviously , what you 'll all be aware of is that , as part of the consultation for this bill , the public policy institute did a further piece of research to look at the impact of physical punishment on children . a number of things that we know—we know from across the world that the evidence is that introducing legislation or changing legislation in this way improves children 's positions within their families . what we know is that children themselves , as alastair has already referred to , really find physical punishment demeaning and harmful , and for children it is an emotionally damaging experience . now , there may be disagreement about that , there will be different views on that , but that 's the voice of the child in this debate . the voice of the child is very clear that physical punishment is for them harmful . i think what we would also say is that , in the world that we work in , it 's part of a continuum , and , whilst this is an element of how children are cared for , what we see is a continuum where an acceptance of how we treat children in a particular way perpetuates throughout our work . by changing this , it helps that shift to that absolute recognition that our children must be cared for in a way that is physically safe in all dimensions for them . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've had evidence from the equal protection network that the reasonable punishment defence undermines child protection and fails to protect children because it permits an arbitrary level of violence , which invades children 's physical integrity , making it a potential pathway to more serious physical or sexual abuse , and you did refer to that just now . is there anything you want to add on that ? sally jenkins: i would echo that . i think there is something in this that is about our culture , about how we see our children . it is about how we see our smallest and most vulnerable people , and if it is acceptable it opens the door to those other , more extreme versions of violence , which then complicates the issue for us . this is about clarity , and , whilst there is an argument that this is a small episode for a child , it 's not a small episode for a child , it is a major episode for a child , and i think absolutely , as you said , the potential for it then to lead on , and over gradation and time to increase the risk for children , is clearly there . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the final question from me : your written evidence emphasises the need for greater clarity around the definition of what constitutes corporal punishment , but that contrasts with what we 've been told by the children 's commissioner and the equal protection network , who 've emphasised the importance of simplicity in the bill . how do you respond to that view , and is what you 're calling for essential to be on the face of the bill ? sally jenkins: it 's not essential for it to be on the face of the bill . what we would like to see is discussion within the implementation phase for that nuancing . absolutely agree in terms of simplicity—i think that is really important—and i 've already mentioned clarity . what we do n't want to do is further confuse the position . we know that the legislation in different countries has done that , and there are ways that you can do it , but what we would welcome is an opportunity during the implementation phase for discussion . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . huw david: and , as a principle , obviously we would welcome full involvement , and we know there 's the commitment from welsh government to full involvement in the implementation , because , as with every piece of legislation , implementation is the most important part , and we would want to ensure there is that commitment to a major awareness-raising campaign , and there is that from welsh government , because we need to take families , carers and parents with us on this . also we need to ensure that there is that support available to parents and carers that do sometimes struggle with parenting , and that needs to be a universal offer across wales . if we 're to progress with this , that has to be an option that is offered to every parent in wales . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . sally jenkins: local authorities have already been very heavily involved in terms of looking at this bill and exploring what the issues are and the discussions and looking at what the implications from a local authority perspective will be , as huw describes , both in terms of the awareness raising , early support and intervention and prevention services for families against the backdrop of the current issues that we have in local government , but also awareness raising—because absolutely it is key that families come with us on this journey . this is not an imposition . this is embracing a culture and a value system for our children . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . i 've got some questions now from dawn bowden on the implementation of the bill . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . so , you 've pre-empted me , huw . huw david: right . sorry . i 've got good eyesight ; i ca n't see— . [ laughter . ] dawn bowden am: you 've already said , obviously , that you 're looking towards working with welsh government in terms of its implementation . what 's been your role so far in terms of the implementation of the bill—local authorities generally , now ? have you had a role ? has welsh government been involving you in discussions around the introduction of the bill so far ? huw david: yes . so , obviously we were consulted—a key consultee—but also our officials have worked very closely with welsh government officials to make sure this is implemented successfully , if it is progressed . sally jenkins: our involvement with this , from a social services perspective , goes back over two years , directly in working towards this point , never mind the history in terms of work towards this area . but , very directly in relation to this bill , we were first involved at least two years ago , to recollect , and that was in a series of workshops with other agencies , for example children and family court advisory and support service cymru and the police , and looking in real depth at what the implications would be for us as agencies to look at what the likely trajectory would be in terms of our pathways for referral into our services and what that might mean for us . and then particularly , for example , with cafcass cymru in relation to private law , what the fallout might be , and then what , if anything—and that 's the discussion that we need to have—that could mean for children 's services in particular , given the pressures that we 're already under . so , we 've been in constant , i suppose , involvement in terms of the bill already , as part of the consultation , in terms of the focus groups and in terms of direct work with welsh government officials to take this forward . and we are absolutely committed to continuing with that work . dawn bowden am: okay . you touched there on the pressures that you 're already under , which we fully appreciate , but you also mentioned in answers to lynne neagle earlier on that you welcomed the bill in terms of its clarity . so , are you confident that the bill can be implemented without any major impact on your capacity to deal with it ? sally jenkins: we 've done— . a number of local authorities—my own included , newport city council , has done some work to look at what the likely impact would be and then actually to look at what some of that costing would need to be . further work is needed on that area , and that needs to be carried out during the implementation phase . i think what we 've done is we 've looked internationally at what the impact has been elsewhere when similar legislation has been introduced to try and gauge , but that 's difficult to do in terms of comparable nations and size and also different systems . and obviously our approach in terms of children and pedagogy is very different from some of the nations that have already done this . i would n't like to say one way or the other , because i think , in terms of that culture shift , it could be a double impact on us in terms of increased referrals because of increased awareness , but it could also be , i suppose , as huw alludes to , that , if we 're looking at ensuring greater awareness of preventative services and support services for parents , actually people coming to the fore and asking us for those services as well . so , at this stage , i think what we would want to say is that we continue to be fully involved in the implementation phase , to look at what the cost implications for that could be , and not just for the local authorities but also the police , cafcass cymru , for third sector organisations involved in preventative services . i do n't think any of that should undermine the position in terms of children and their rights within our society . so , a difficult answer , in the sense that— dawn bowden am: no , i understand . what you 're saying is that this is a piece of legislation that , in your view , is a good piece of legislation . it 's setting out to , hopefully , achieve what the purpose of it is and you will deliver what you need to . can i ask you whether , then , you 've also given thought to the impact on—we 've talked about social services , but the impact on other services , like housing , education and so on ? you 're obviously coming at it from slightly different angles in other sections . alastair birch: we are part of the universal service for children , and we very much work in co-operation with the wlga and our social care colleagues , and we 've been part of that consultation . in terms of education , the main changes , or adaptations , would be around training and awareness . and , in terms of the bill , there needs to be the clarity—ambiguity would be bad—in terms of making sure that safeguarding leads within all schools have the right training and support . so , really , that 's the key element there , and then obviously the preventative services for the parents that schools can signpost , and sometimes possibly even host , in terms of being community schools . these positive parenting approaches that— . i have colleagues who have worked in that area for many years and see the benefits in how those positive parenting approaches make a difference to families . dawn bowden am: so , from your point of view , it 's awareness raising , is it ? alastair birch: it 's awareness raising ; it 's making sure that professionals are fully briefed on necessary changes , that there 's very little ambiguity , that we are aware that— . we still have that duty to report whenever there is any safeguarding concern . that 'll still be part of the all-wales child protection procedures . that wo n't change , and that duty is always going to be there for all our professionals . but that awareness raising and training will be the key , and then , obviously , working in co-operation with our colleagues . dawn bowden am: okay , i understand that . have you been given an indication of how long you 've got between royal assent and implementation , and whether you 've thought through any of the key milestones that need to be implemented ? sally jenkins: there 's a group proposed that would be a strategic leadership group in the steering group that we 're part of , which is now laying out what would happen after royal assent if that is given . so , we will work towards that . dawn bowden am: okay . my final question , chair , is about some of the responses we 've had to this committee that say that the state should not get involved in family life—i 'm sure you 've heard those views—unless it 's in the most serious circumstances . to what extent do you think that this bill undermines the existing local authority responsibilities , or do n't you ? huw david: the state 's paramount role is to protect children from harm . that is our legal responsibility , it 's our moral responsibility , and we will discharge that . and there is obviously a view—it 's a view that is enshrined in the un convention on the rights of the child—that physical punishment , physical harm to a child is harm to a child , and we should be preventing that and act to prevent that . that would be the position of the welsh local government association , and we also respect the mandate that members of the national assembly for wales have too . and we believe that children can be raised by parents without recourse to physical punishment , effectively , and we 'd support parents in that . we do not believe that in the 50 nations across the world where such legislation exists that the state is interfering in family life unnecessarily . we believe this action reflects a cultural change , a sea change that 's taken place in wales over the last 30 to 40 years , where the vast majority of parents now say that they do not use it themselves , they do not support it , and we believe this is actually a reflection of what has happened in welsh society . we support assembly members in the view that the natural progression of that is that children 's rights are protected across wales . dawn bowden am: so , i 've got largely positive feedback from you in terms of the bill and its intentions , and so on . do you foresee any unintended consequences for this bill ? huw david: if we implement it carefully , if we implement it with the right resources , then i hope not . i think not . but as with every piece of legislation , it is about the implementation , it is about the cultural change as well , and that 's why i can not overstress the importance of making sure that resources are made available , because our social services departments—children 's social services in particular—are overstretched . they are at breaking point—make no bones about it—and they are dealing with children who are facing serious harm and neglect . we are having record numbers of contacts from police , from teachers , from doctors and , of course , from children themselves who are experiencing that harm and neglect . and obviously , we want to focus our energy and our attention on those children . equally , though , we do n't want to lose sight of those families and children that are experiencing significant problems , but who we want to support through our early intervention and prevention programmes , and that is why it is important that there is investment in those programmes , so that children do not end up in that terrible position where we have to , for their safety , take them from their birth families to protect them . and the reality is , in wales , that we are doing that to more children than we 've done for a long time , and the numbers are growing across wales . and that is only because of the most appalling neglect and abuse , because there is no way that any judge would permit us to act to make a child safe if it was not for that fact , and the facts are there . so , i do n't want that focus to be lost , but , of course , we welcome and understand the need to progress this piece of legislation . dawn bowden am: that rise that you talk about here , is that due to more interventions , greater awareness , more incidents ? i 'm trying to link this to the bill in terms of whether the bill is actually going to give you more work to do in those areas . sally jenkins: on the reasons for the rise in the numbers of looked-after children in wales , which are higher than those in england , and also the numbers of contacts that we have across the local authorities , the work of the care crisis review , which was completed last year ; the work of isabelle trowler , who 's the chief social worker in england ; countless research and reports that have taken place in the last 18 months ; and currently the public law working group , under the auspices of the president of the family court , would all indicate that it 's multifactorial . so , what you have is a range of reasons that have led to the increasing numbers of children becoming looked after across england and wales . what you ca n't do is identify a single reason . there have been headlines that have said , 'is it increased austerity ? ' that is clearly a part of this . is it in wales an increased awareness of adverse childhood experiences and the emphasis of the impact on children of , for example , domestic abuse ? is it because of our understanding of what happens to children in those households ? all of that research would say it 's all of those things . and then , when you also add in changes in our practice with our colleagues in the judiciary , changes in our police service , but also changes in our preventative services , you 've got that whole range of elements . and there is going on across the local authorities and welsh government a huge amount of work to try to address and understand that , and then to ameliorate that . children who need to be in care for safety need to be in care , but what we have to do is get to a point where fewer children come into care and we 're able to protect them , firstly , and secondly where those children who are in care are cared for in a way that delivers the best possible outcomes for them . so , there is no simple answer unfortunately . i think , in terms of this bill and unintended consequences , i agree absolutely with everything that huw has said . my job is around children at that far end , but what this bill does is it brings clarity . it brings a clarity even for those children at that very far end . it takes away even that point of discussion that this could possibly be okay , and i think that 's important to hang on to . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . sorry . alastair birch: one unintended consequences is that i think that there will be an increased focus on the uncrc . and , in terms of children having a discussion around this point , children need to be part of that discussion . it 's something that affects them . and a key aspect of education is the voice of the child . it has become significantly— . it 's changed completely in the last 10 years , and it is one of the key things in terms of us driving improvements . dawn bowden am: would that be something that you would be looking to do in schools ? alastair birch: anything that improves the voice of the child in any educational context is good and it 's very powerful for the children . and it improves their educational experiences , encouraging the opportunities for them to discuss the issues , the adverse childhood experiences that they encounter , which are significant , and it 's our educational professionals that are facing this day-in , day-out . they 've become a very highly trained workforce , they 're ace aware , they 're trauma aware , and anything that focuses , even increases , their professionalism and understanding around a particular point , and also— . so it 's a positive unintended consequence , shall we say , that it could reinvigorate some of the voice of the child discussion within various contexts . dawn bowden am: okay . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: we 've got some specific questions now on implementation for social services , from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . if this bill becomes law , would you encourage members of the public to contact social services departments if they do see a child being smacked ? sally jenkins: we already encourage members of the public to contact social services or the police , depending on the circumstances . interestingly , i 'm picking— janet finch-saunders am: what , if a child is being smacked now ? sally jenkins: yes . if a child is being smacked now , we would ask that people contact . we have a duty to report , as professionals . but if you were walking out , and you saw something happening to a child , in the same way as if you saw something to an adult . janet finch-saunders am: right . sally jenkins: so , i think that the challenge is about—we 've all probably , sadly , witnessed incidents in the doctor 's reception , or in a supermarket , and we 've failed to do something about it . and i think we then walk away and feel pretty guilty about that , realistically , when you see something happening to a child in a particular circumstance . i think we ca n't ignore the fact that a child is being assaulted in those circumstances . janet finch-saunders am: okay . thank you . a campaign opposing this bill , be reasonable wales , have said that 'if the law is changed , the consequences for parents will be considerable . ' it also says , 'anyone accused or convicted of assaulting a child—under the new definition— ' so , i suppose you could argue , a minor tap— 'will be subject to long-term social services involvement in their family and social stigma . ' to what extent is this accurate , and , also , will thresholds for social services intervention change if the bill is enacted ? sally jenkins: there are a number of parts to that . firstly , in terms of long-term social services intervention in a family 's life , i think , for people to be fully aware of the very few numbers of families where we have long-term intervention currently , even where there is what would be perceived as very significant abuse . what we do is we go in for short periods in families ' lives , to support them to work with their strengths , to work with them and their family members . it 's not about us going into families , whatever some of the public perception may be . our aim is to get in and get out . so , in terms of long-term intervention , what we want is for families to find their own solutions . we want families to be able to work with each other , and together , and local community support , and preventative services , to be able to address issues . this is not about punitive approaches from social services . so , that 's the first element . in terms of thresholds for children 's services , we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us . there may be a small number of referrals that come through . what we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle . we recognise that 's likely to happen . because we also know that this is actually quite a rare occurrence currently ; this is not a defence that 's being used with great frequency , this is not something that is happening . and if we look at the data , we know that the incidents of children , and the number of parents who now recognise this as an acceptable form of punishment , has steadily declined over the last 15 to 20 years . so it 's diminishing as it is . janet finch-saunders am: so , on that one then , is there a need for legislation that will—obviously there 'll be resources for the welsh government and there 'll be resources out of hours and things like that—is there a need for legislation if , as you say , natural behaviour and the culture is changing ? let 's be honest , as you 've rightly pointed out , in social services—i know in my own authority—in your own authority , you 're saying that even now you 're working with the police , on systematic failings within the system . sally jenkins: two things . firstly , we want legislation that reflects our society—we do n't want the two to be out of kilter . that would be my first natural response : surely our legislation should be reflective of what our world is . it should n't be that we 've got these rather confusing elements running in parallel , and that continues to perpetuate a lack of clarity and the ambiguity that we currently see . i think the other element is that , again , this is about potentially an accelerating of that awareness and that culture in our society , about how we care for our children . we 've got there naturally ; we 've got there by the change that 's happened in wales over the last 15 to 20 years . what this does is to continue with that change and continue with that awareness and understanding of how we positively , from a strength-based approach , should care for our children , bearing in mind what 's required of us in terms of the uncrc . janet finch-saunders am: okay . are there any comments from anyone else ? huw david: simply to say that i think that , in terms of that clarity for the very vulnerable children out there who are currently being assaulted—seriously assaulted and abused by their parents , which goes on on a daily basis—that is already covered by existing legislation . but at the moment , they do n't know , because they could be being told—and they probably are being told—by their parents that 's it 's okay , that they can smack their child and that that 's acceptable . they do n't know the difference . a young child is not going to know that difference and there is confusion about what is— . and if you asked most parents , and in fact lots of professionals , they would not be able to tell you , and probably most of you would n't be able to tell me exactly where is the threshold— janet finch-saunders am: yes , where 's that line . huw david: well , at the moment , we do n't know where that line is . that vulnerable child , at home , being abused by their parents , does not know where that line is . and they should know where that line is because then they can pick up the phone to childline or they can talk to a professional and ask them where that line is . so , that would be a step forward . i do recognise , though , that what we do n't want to do—and the last thing any of us want to do—is criminalise parents who are bringing up their children . that is why we 're saying there needs to be an emphasis on the support programmes that are available to parents . and to be clear , there is no way that we want long-term involvement in any child 's life , but particularly not in the lives of children who have been smacked by their parents . that is not going to be the result of this legislation , trust me , because we do n't want to be involved in—we have n't got the resources to be involved in children 's lives . the social worker or the police officer—if they become involved , then there would be a proportionate response to that , and there 'll also be a test about whether or not that is progressed . so , if there is an allegation—if this legislation is passed—then that will be looked into and a consideration will be made about whether any action will be taken , and as with any allegation of the law being broken , there would be a proportionate response , as there is now . lynne neagle am: and the next question does relate to the practical response to that . janet . janet finch-saunders am: yes . can you outline the practical ways in which social services ' interaction with parents will change as a result of this proposed law and do you envisage that all referrals to the police will be automatically referred to social services for an assessment ? who 's going to make those decisions ? sally jenkins: that will be part of the implementation phase about that decision making . interestingly , the number of referrals that we currently get from the police that we take absolutely no action on is extraordinary . so , we get a very , very large number of— . it will be happening now ; sitting in the civic centre in newport city council will be a whole host of social workers taking in the public protection notifications from overnight . it 's 10 o'clock , so they 're assessing them now , as we speak . and an awful lot of those will have no further action from the local authority . janet finch-saunders am: but will they be investigated ? sally jenkins: no . there will be no action . there are countless referrals made by agencies to local authorities that we take no action on . janet finch-saunders am: so , if there 's an increase as a result of greater awareness— sally jenkins: what happens is there is a paper assessment of them . there 's a look at what 's happened , who 's involved , what the police have reported , and there 's work being done with the police to improve that . because one of the things that we want to get to is actually where we 're not using huge amounts of time to look at that , but what comes to us is what we act on . so , there is work going on with a number of police authorities to look at how you improve that process . but i suppose , to pick up , each incident will be looked at , each one will be assessed in a way that is proportionate , as huw says , to look at what 's happened and then investigated . lynne neagle am: sally , can you give us a couple of examples of what kind of things might have come in that you would then take no action on ? sally jenkins: we get countless referrals , for example , where there 's been a domestic abuse incident overnight where a child was n't present in the property and we then have n't taken action . it ’ ll be where the level of harm that ’ s perceived to happen to that child is below the threshold for intervention from children 's services . janet finch-saunders am: i ’ m pretty cynical about assessment , because , you know , i have people come in who are benefit claimants where , when they ’ ve been assessed , the whole process has been very flawed and i ’ ve had to fight and fight and fight on their behalf . so— sally jenkins: assessment processes within social— janet finch-saunders am: but if you 're struggling now with those assessments— sally jenkins: assessment processes within social services are as laid out in the social services and well-being ( wales ) act 2014. so , we have within what we carry out , i suppose , that kind of initial look , that look at the information , what else do we know about that family— janet finch-saunders am: and are they qualified people that are doing this ? sally jenkins: yes , absolutely . huw david: and , in fact , in lots of places in wales now , it ’ s a multi-agency assessment . so , it ’ s a joint assessment carried out with police professionals and health professionals . janet finch-saunders am: so , what proportion currently would you not be taking any action on , if a report came in of some domestic abuse where a child had perhaps been smacked ? sally jenkins: if something came in to us where a child had been smacked and there was something clearly there , we would look at it . we would clearly look at it and we would take some sort of action . janet finch-saunders am: even now , before the legislation ? sally jenkins: yes . lynne neagle am: can you ask a final question ? and i 'm going to have to appeal for brief answers , because we 've got a lot of ground to cover . huw david: just very quickly , there may be no action from social services , but it doesn ’ t mean that we don ’ t offer support . so , the expectation is that support is offered in those circumstances from family support services , for example— sally jenkins: or prevention . huw david: —or prevention services . so , we would not say , if we were aware , for example , that there was domestic abuse at a home , ‘ there ’ s no role for children ’ s social services ’ , because there may be an assessment that that child may not be at immediate risk of harm , but we would obviously recognise that there are causes for concern there and we would offer that support . so , just to be clear about that . and that ’ s a process that happens in every social services department in the uk , and it ’ s happened for a very long time , and , in fact , it ’ s reflective of the legislation that you have laid down as assembly members . lynne neagle am: and are those services there , huw ? because i ’ m very acutely aware of the pressure on local government . are the services there ? is there sufficient resource in things like families first ? because what i ’ m hearing on the ground is that eligibility is changing for even those preventative services . huw david: there ’ s not enough of those services , and , obviously—you may have heard me saying this before—i think we need to invest more in those services , and i hope you invest more in the services , because , obviously , prevention is better than cure . and those pressures that sally talked about earlier are pressures that are not going away ; they ’ re only increasing by the day , actually , and i would want us to be able to offer those services now . because that example of a child that perhaps is in a home where there is domestic abuse—we ’ ll probably have another referral off them in a couple of months ’ time , and that could escalate . and what i ’ d rather do is provide support to that family and try and stop that family breaking down so that , in six months , we 're not going back and saying that we 've got to take this child into care because the domestic abuse has worsened and that child is at risk . but those services need additional investment . sally jenkins: i appreciate that time is of the essence , but , just really quickly in relation to that , it ’ s not just social services . so , for example , there are developments like encompass , which is a piece of work that is being rolled out across gwent and across other areas , which is where the police automatically notify the school overnight of an incident , not expecting the school to do anything per se , but to be aware , to be able to offer care for that child . alastair birch: can i add to that ? operation encompass i know in gwent has been operational , and we started it in pembrokeshire 18 months ago . we as a local authority—and it ’ ll be education that will contact the school around the domestic incident happening , and the school as part of that protocol will provide a level of universal service support for that child when they come in , before 9 o ’ clock , so that professionals are aware of the needs of the welfare of that child at that point . so , you know , schools play a key role in the universal service of this and we work very closely with our social care colleagues on that . lynne neagle am: okay . janet , your last question , please . janet finch-saunders am: the bill 's explanatory memorandum refers to an estimate of 274 offences annually where lawful chastisement was used as a defence or considered . it says there is also potential to create extra demand on out-of-hours social services teams due to the time that the offences were reported , and in order to support safeguarding measures . have you assessed how this bill will impact on emergency and out-of-hours local authority services ? sally jenkins: we have considered that , and again i think that 's something that we would very much want to look at as part of implementation . we have out-of-hours provision , we have emergency duty teams already across wales that operate 24/7 . there 's no doubt that they exist and they work very closely with our police colleagues . janet finch-saunders am: are they overstretched at the moment ? sally jenkins: i think in the same way as all of social services is . if we were offered additional resource , we are going to take that . but are they working in a way that protects children day in , day out , and vulnerable adults ? yes , they are , and they will continue to do so . lynne neagle am: thank you very much . we 've got some specific questions now on the impact on education from jayne bryant . jayne bryant am: thank you , chair . good morning . alastair , you 've already mentioned about awareness raising and training , which will be key with educational professionals . how confident are you that teachers and others working in those educational settings will be clear about how to support the implementation of this bill , if enacted ? alastair birch: training requirements for all professionals in education settings are clear . the universal tier 1 training is there , and all local authorities in wales will implement that . in that level of general safeguarding awareness and training , the infinite emphasis is on the duty to report . that will remain the same . the thresholds for social care , that 's their responsibility . that duty to report will always be there . it says in 'keeping learners safe ' , which is the bible in terms of education professionals , that there 's a responsibility on the professional to make that referral and for that universal service . so , the more specialist safeguarding leads within the schools , who have become highly skilled professionals in terms of understanding what might be significant harm—because that 's what we 're talking about—they understand the legalities when a referral needs to be made . there 's always the collation of safeguarding information , where there might be just general concerns about neglect and other areas , which combined would create a picture that there might be significant neglect or significant harm to the child , and then that referral would be made to the child care assessment team or the police . so , that awareness—it needs to be clear for educational professionals that that duty to report is always there . if they believe that that significant harm has happened then that report then goes to the child care assessment team . they will make the judgment on the threshold because they are the professionals . they have the multi-agency awareness of how that meets the threshold . but in terms of education , it 'll be that awareness , making sure that there 's clarity . if there 's anything that professionals need to be trained additionally on , it 'll need to go into 'keeping learners safe ' , which at the moment is being rewritten . so , there would have to be some new possible information there relating to this . but as long as there 's clarity , and once that implementation phase and the discussion has happened , as long as it 's clear for professionals that the duty is always there and they feel a significant harm , then that report will always be there and will always need to be made . it 's making sure—and i 'll echo what my colleague said , huw—that the services are key for families . schools are absolutely fundamental in that support for the families . they have those relationships with the families . i know there was discussion around professional trust . on a daily basis , professionals are working on that trust with parents , because they are the ones that can engage with those families . the family support officers that are working on the ground with highly complex families , with multiple leads and supporting the children—they are fundamental , and investment in that level of support would also help our colleagues as well . so , anything that 's preventative . that is already happening in schools and is effective , and is shown to be effective , and has an evidence base—we 'd always support that that would continue to be invested in . so , that 's really my answer . jayne bryant am: okay . and you were saying about how important trust is as well , but do you think that there 's a risk that those in education settings will have a key role in referring more parents to social services , which some have said could cause potential harm to relationships and cause mistrust ? alastair birch: i do n't think it 's a matter of mistrust—it 's a matter of , you know , if a professional believes , based on the evidence that they have , because they 're working with that child every day , that there is significant harm to that child , they are under a duty to report that to social care . so , part of the work is with families , and most of the referrals we make are with parental consent . that consent is a key element of this , and conversation with our social care colleagues is usually , 'you need to speak to the parents again and have a conversation with them . ' some of the nfas—the ones that do n't get referred at threshold—it will come back to school for , possibly , some support from the family or a team around the family or some other aspect . so , i do n't think— . the trust in the professionals—it 's actually more important that we are seen to be upholding our duties under the all-wales safeguarding procedures . that 's what engenders trust in a professional workforce . jayne bryant am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you very much . we 're going to move on now to some questions about the importance of awareness raising from siân gwenllian . sian gwenllian am: good morning . in looking at your written evidence , you say that we must make it very clear to parents , guardians and the public that this legislation is not trying to criminalise parents , and that is clearly very important for you . how do you think we should do that and who should be doing that work ? sally jenkins: i think that 's really broad . obviously , colleagues in education , colleagues in social care , colleagues in preventative services , but also welsh government and the national assembly , in terms of those drivers in relation to that awareness raising are really , really key . if you look at some of the other campaigns that have been run , notably in relation to violence against women , domestic abuse and sexual violence , and echoing some of those building campaigns that have been done to raise awareness—i think those would be really good models to begin to consider in terms of how this is taken forward with awareness . we also know that there are a number of routes that we can go through in terms of raising awareness . we have existing preventative services , we have all our universal services , we have the regional safeguarding boards and the national safeguarding boards . so , there are a number of avenues that we could then explore . in terms of not wishing to criminalise , i think if we look at the numbers , they are very , very small . and i think one of the things we need to hold on to in this is a sense of proportion about what is or is n't likely to happen once or if this bill ever gets to the point of royal assent—they are small numbers who currently use this defence . it is about that wider issue of awareness raising , and using all of those avenues will help us to do that in the broadest sense . sian gwenllian am: do you , therefore , believe that this needs to be on the face of the bill ? that is , you do n't say this in your evidence . i 'd like to know your opinion on that . scotland is going to be making it a duty for scottish ministers to raise awareness of the impact of the bill . so far , the welsh government says that we do n't need to do that in wales . would n't it make it clearer for you if it was a clear duty on the face of the bill , for example as it was with the human transplantation ( wales ) act 2013 ? there was a duty in that act for ministers to promote transplantation . surely , that awareness raising aspect would be clearer for everyone if it was on the face of the bill . do you have an opinion on that ? huw david: well , welsh government have given that commitment , and i know the welsh government honour every commitment that they make— [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: that 's why i 'm asking . huw david: i do n't know whether that is necessary—i 'm not a legislator . i think that there 's obviously an inherent interest in welsh government raising awareness , because we have to raise awareness effectively for this to be successful , otherwise we will have parents who feel that they 're being criminalised , and that 's the last thing we want . i think it 's worthy of consideration , but , as i say , i 'm not a legislator or a lawyer , so i do n't know what implications that will have long term . but to be fair to welsh government , i think that commitment is one that i 'm sure will be honoured , because welsh government will want to make a success of this bill if it does receive royal assent . sian gwenllian am: okay . but is it clear who would pay for all of that ? huw david: i 've suddenly changed my mind— [ laughter . ] i think it should be a duty on welsh government ministers—absolutely . i do n't need to check with lawyers or legislators . there we go . and that 's the wlga position ; i do n't need to ask the other 21 leaders on that either . [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: would n't it make it clearer if there was a clear duty on the face of the bill that awareness raising had to happen ? it would be clearer , then , for local authorities and people in the front-line services what needs to happen . sally jenkins: i 'm going to echo huw . [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: i thought you might . okay , fine . lynne neagle am: okay . we 're moving on now , then , to the contentious issue of resources and we 've got some questions from hefin . hefin david am: sally jenkins , you said that the purpose of the bill is to bring clarity and to remove what is a little-used defence . is n't this an expensive way of doing that ? sally jenkins: i do n't think so , no . i think that our children deserve the best legislation . hefin david am: but introducing this legislation diverts finances from other areas of children 's services—or does n't ? sally jenkins: well , i would say , no , i do n't think it will divert resources from children 's services . firstly , going back to the comment made , i think , proportionally , this is a very small number of cases . it 's a very small number of existing cases that go through in terms of prosecution , or consideration for prosecution . we know that it 's likely , from some of the work that we 've already done , that it 's not opening floodgates for a sudden sea of referrals to children 's services—that 's not the way this is going to be , because the numbers are not out there because of the changes that have already happened in welsh family life and welsh society . so , i think as part of the implementation phase , we need to have a really clear understanding of the trajectory of those costs and what 's likely to happen over the first six months , 12 months in terms of people 's awareness and understanding and what is referred and how that 's worked . but in terms of a huge number , no , i do n't anticipate it being that . hefin david am: but the costs would n't just be directed to the number of referrals and the number of cases raised , it 's the cost around that , with training of staff , awareness—all those extra additional costs that always come with legislation . is it too much ? is it— ? sally jenkins: no . and i agree with that—that there clearly are—but if you think , many of those things will be aligned with work we are already doing , but it brings a clarity to that work . so , our teachers , our social workers , our health workers , our police officers already get substantial training around child protection , around safeguarding , around adverse childhood experiences and around a trauma-informed approach to children . what this does is it layers a clarity on that . but rather than having a part of that training , which has to deal with this as an aspect—that is no longer there ; it is a clear message for all professions . hefin david am: i fully appreciate that , and in the briefing note you 've given us , you 've outlined the pressures on social services . so , do you think this is another way of getting money into social services ? sally jenkins: if this was a way of getting money into— . i can think of better ways , but i do n't think this is it . no , i mean , i absolutely do not think that . i think this is a clear commitment to the rights of children in wales ; this is not about levering additional resources into children 's services . oh that it was so simple . hefin david am: okay . and , do you think those costs are quantifiable ? sally jenkins: i think we are currently looking at work and are doing work across my own local authority and across two others to look at breaking down those costs , not just for local authority , but also for health , for police and for children and family court advisory and support service cymru . so , there is work currently taking place to try to quantify those costs . hefin david am: okay . i think there was a bit about local authorities that siân— lynne neagle am: okay . siân gwenllian has got a question on resources . sian gwenllian am: yes , just to carry on from that , in a way . the explanatory memorandum that accompanies the bill talks about the unknown costs for different agencies . you mentioned there that you 're doing work around trying to identify some of those costs , but would n't it be useful if the explanatory memorandum did explain more about any unknown or unidentified costs , partly in order to calm some of those fears around that ? giving a title 'unidentified costs'—is that good enough ? sally jenkins: i think , clearly , that is a challenge , and that is work that we are participating in and are committed to completing with welsh government , to look at what those costs are . sian gwenllian am: and then they can be added into this . huw david: i think this is where it would be helpful in the committee 's deliberations and where our concern would be , because the reality is we 're not going to know what the costs are until it 's actually implemented , because we have n't implemented this before . and , therefore , i think there needs to be a commitment that , whatever the costs are , those costs are met because it is legislation that is being led by the national assembly for wales . and whilst we do n't see it as levering in additional resources , we do n't think it should be at the expense of current service provision to vulnerable families in wales , and therefore it 's important that it is properly and fully resourced . sian gwenllian am: what i would argue on that is that you have to try and forecast . you say it 's difficult to forecast how much this is going to cost , but we have to try and forecast that , and part of the argument for trying to have projections is to show that , perhaps , it 's not going to cost that much , and that would add to the argument that , 'okay , this is going to be fine to do and it 's not going to put too much pressure on us ' . or we need to know that this is going to cost a lot to do it effectively , and therefore you have to make your argument , then , 'well , we ca n't afford that , the money has to come from somewhere else . ' we have to get the costs , surely . huw david: yes , and we will work very closely with welsh government to try and establish those costs as quickly as possible . there will be some costs that we will be able to identify . so , for example , a campaign , an awareness-raising campaign , the marketing , if you like , but some of the other costs will be more difficult to establish in terms of the resource implications for front-line workers . i expressed a view that we need to see some additional investment in some of those programmes that are not targeted directly at families that would be impacted by this but support all families across wales that have different needs , and some of that provision is universal . obviously , my view is the more we put into that , the better . so , there 's no limit to that , but i suspect welsh government will take a very different view to that . but i think that is something where we need to see a commitment to some additional resources . but i do n't put an upper limit on that , because i do n't think there 's an authority in wales , and i do n't think there 's a charity , a police service or a health board in wales that does n't think that we need to do more of that and could offer more of that if the resources were available . sian gwenllian am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've come to the end of our time , so can i thank you all for attending and for answering all of our questions ? it 's been a really useful and informative discussion . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you again , all of you , for coming . huw david: and thank you for your questions and engagement . we welcome the opportunity . alastair birch: thank you very much . sally jenkins: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: okay , item 3 is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the minister for housing and local government—additional information for our inquiry into school funding . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for health and social services on in-patient child and adolescent mental health services provision , and i would like to briefly return to that when we go into private . are members happy to note those ? thank you . item 4 , then : can i propose a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? thank you .

huw david said that there had already existed legislation that covered those children who were currently being assaulted and abused by their parents which went on a daily basis . however , the threshold of being abused was not clear , and children might be told that being smacked by their parents was acceptable . however , it was necessary to know where the line is , and this would be a step forward .

summarize the specific questions and answers on the impact on education . </s> lynne neagle am: okay . good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from suzy davies and jack sargeant and i 'm very pleased to welcome jayne bryant back , who is substituting for jack today . are there any declarations of interest from members , please ? no . okay , thank you . item 2 , then , this morning , is our sixth scrutiny session on the children ( abolition of defence of reasonable punishment ) ( wales ) bill . i 'm very pleased to welcome our witnesses this morning : sally jenkins , who is chair of all wales heads of children ’ s services and is here representing the association of directors of social services ; alastair birch , who is senior system leader for equalities and safeguarding at pembrokeshire county council , who is here representing the association of directors of education wales ; and councillor huw david , who is the welsh local government association spokesperson for health and social care and leader of bridgend county borough council . so , thank you all for attending this morning . we 're very pleased to have you here . we 've got a lot of ground to cover , so , if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions and i 'll start just by asking about your general support for the bill , which is outlined in the evidence . can you just explain why you think the current law is ineffective or unclear ? alastair birch: bore da—bore da , bawb . so , i 'm alastair birch . the statement , really , from adew is that the rights of the child should be educated and achieved , really , under the united nations convention on the rights of the child . the current legislation has been criticised , obviously , by the un concerning the defence of reasonable punishment still being within our current legislation . so , we will always—adew will always—advocate that the rights of the child be upheld , so that is really the fundamental aspect in terms of the statement from adew , and the position of adew is that the rights of the child are fundamental in this process . and there are certain articles— . i know that the rights of children and young persons ( wales ) measure 2011 made sure that article 3 and article 4 , article 12 and article 37 were a focus in terms of making sure that the best interests of the child were put first , that children expressing their views and opinions was a priority . and we know , for safeguarding purposes , that the express opinions of the child and the voice of the child are a fundamental aspect of any safe environment , whether it be a school or college . so , that is—the position is really following that legal position under the rights of children and young persons ( wales ) measure . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . nothing to add at this stage , no ? sally jenkins: i 'll just add , on behalf of adss and on behalf of children 's services and social services more widely , for us , this is not a change in our position , this is not new ; this is a position that we , on behalf of the leaders of social services across wales , have taken over many years , going back 20 , 25 years . i think what we would say is that we really welcome this bill and we welcome the proposed change for the clarity it would bring—the clarity that it would bring for children , for parents and for professionals . i think what we would recognise is that this is a very little-used piece of legislation , so it 's rare , it 's not as if this is something that is going to cast great change across the scene for children and families in wales , but what it will do is represent a change in the reality of how we care and nurture our children . i would echo absolutely what alastair has said in terms of the rights of the child , but equally , in terms of all of our policies in wales in terms of promoting well-being for children , this has to be key . so , for us , this is about a natural progression of change in how we care for our children in wales . for children 's services at the very sharp end of this world , for us , it brings a true clarity . this continues with an ambiguity in how we treat our children and how we care for our children , and the shift for us brings that very much needed clarity . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the committee has already heard different views about whether there 's clear evidence that physical punishment is harmful to children . what evidence does the work of social services provide about whether physical punishment is actually harmful ? sally jenkins: obviously , what you 'll all be aware of is that , as part of the consultation for this bill , the public policy institute did a further piece of research to look at the impact of physical punishment on children . a number of things that we know—we know from across the world that the evidence is that introducing legislation or changing legislation in this way improves children 's positions within their families . what we know is that children themselves , as alastair has already referred to , really find physical punishment demeaning and harmful , and for children it is an emotionally damaging experience . now , there may be disagreement about that , there will be different views on that , but that 's the voice of the child in this debate . the voice of the child is very clear that physical punishment is for them harmful . i think what we would also say is that , in the world that we work in , it 's part of a continuum , and , whilst this is an element of how children are cared for , what we see is a continuum where an acceptance of how we treat children in a particular way perpetuates throughout our work . by changing this , it helps that shift to that absolute recognition that our children must be cared for in a way that is physically safe in all dimensions for them . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've had evidence from the equal protection network that the reasonable punishment defence undermines child protection and fails to protect children because it permits an arbitrary level of violence , which invades children 's physical integrity , making it a potential pathway to more serious physical or sexual abuse , and you did refer to that just now . is there anything you want to add on that ? sally jenkins: i would echo that . i think there is something in this that is about our culture , about how we see our children . it is about how we see our smallest and most vulnerable people , and if it is acceptable it opens the door to those other , more extreme versions of violence , which then complicates the issue for us . this is about clarity , and , whilst there is an argument that this is a small episode for a child , it 's not a small episode for a child , it is a major episode for a child , and i think absolutely , as you said , the potential for it then to lead on , and over gradation and time to increase the risk for children , is clearly there . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the final question from me : your written evidence emphasises the need for greater clarity around the definition of what constitutes corporal punishment , but that contrasts with what we 've been told by the children 's commissioner and the equal protection network , who 've emphasised the importance of simplicity in the bill . how do you respond to that view , and is what you 're calling for essential to be on the face of the bill ? sally jenkins: it 's not essential for it to be on the face of the bill . what we would like to see is discussion within the implementation phase for that nuancing . absolutely agree in terms of simplicity—i think that is really important—and i 've already mentioned clarity . what we do n't want to do is further confuse the position . we know that the legislation in different countries has done that , and there are ways that you can do it , but what we would welcome is an opportunity during the implementation phase for discussion . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . huw david: and , as a principle , obviously we would welcome full involvement , and we know there 's the commitment from welsh government to full involvement in the implementation , because , as with every piece of legislation , implementation is the most important part , and we would want to ensure there is that commitment to a major awareness-raising campaign , and there is that from welsh government , because we need to take families , carers and parents with us on this . also we need to ensure that there is that support available to parents and carers that do sometimes struggle with parenting , and that needs to be a universal offer across wales . if we 're to progress with this , that has to be an option that is offered to every parent in wales . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . sally jenkins: local authorities have already been very heavily involved in terms of looking at this bill and exploring what the issues are and the discussions and looking at what the implications from a local authority perspective will be , as huw describes , both in terms of the awareness raising , early support and intervention and prevention services for families against the backdrop of the current issues that we have in local government , but also awareness raising—because absolutely it is key that families come with us on this journey . this is not an imposition . this is embracing a culture and a value system for our children . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . i 've got some questions now from dawn bowden on the implementation of the bill . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . so , you 've pre-empted me , huw . huw david: right . sorry . i 've got good eyesight ; i ca n't see— . [ laughter . ] dawn bowden am: you 've already said , obviously , that you 're looking towards working with welsh government in terms of its implementation . what 's been your role so far in terms of the implementation of the bill—local authorities generally , now ? have you had a role ? has welsh government been involving you in discussions around the introduction of the bill so far ? huw david: yes . so , obviously we were consulted—a key consultee—but also our officials have worked very closely with welsh government officials to make sure this is implemented successfully , if it is progressed . sally jenkins: our involvement with this , from a social services perspective , goes back over two years , directly in working towards this point , never mind the history in terms of work towards this area . but , very directly in relation to this bill , we were first involved at least two years ago , to recollect , and that was in a series of workshops with other agencies , for example children and family court advisory and support service cymru and the police , and looking in real depth at what the implications would be for us as agencies to look at what the likely trajectory would be in terms of our pathways for referral into our services and what that might mean for us . and then particularly , for example , with cafcass cymru in relation to private law , what the fallout might be , and then what , if anything—and that 's the discussion that we need to have—that could mean for children 's services in particular , given the pressures that we 're already under . so , we 've been in constant , i suppose , involvement in terms of the bill already , as part of the consultation , in terms of the focus groups and in terms of direct work with welsh government officials to take this forward . and we are absolutely committed to continuing with that work . dawn bowden am: okay . you touched there on the pressures that you 're already under , which we fully appreciate , but you also mentioned in answers to lynne neagle earlier on that you welcomed the bill in terms of its clarity . so , are you confident that the bill can be implemented without any major impact on your capacity to deal with it ? sally jenkins: we 've done— . a number of local authorities—my own included , newport city council , has done some work to look at what the likely impact would be and then actually to look at what some of that costing would need to be . further work is needed on that area , and that needs to be carried out during the implementation phase . i think what we 've done is we 've looked internationally at what the impact has been elsewhere when similar legislation has been introduced to try and gauge , but that 's difficult to do in terms of comparable nations and size and also different systems . and obviously our approach in terms of children and pedagogy is very different from some of the nations that have already done this . i would n't like to say one way or the other , because i think , in terms of that culture shift , it could be a double impact on us in terms of increased referrals because of increased awareness , but it could also be , i suppose , as huw alludes to , that , if we 're looking at ensuring greater awareness of preventative services and support services for parents , actually people coming to the fore and asking us for those services as well . so , at this stage , i think what we would want to say is that we continue to be fully involved in the implementation phase , to look at what the cost implications for that could be , and not just for the local authorities but also the police , cafcass cymru , for third sector organisations involved in preventative services . i do n't think any of that should undermine the position in terms of children and their rights within our society . so , a difficult answer , in the sense that— dawn bowden am: no , i understand . what you 're saying is that this is a piece of legislation that , in your view , is a good piece of legislation . it 's setting out to , hopefully , achieve what the purpose of it is and you will deliver what you need to . can i ask you whether , then , you 've also given thought to the impact on—we 've talked about social services , but the impact on other services , like housing , education and so on ? you 're obviously coming at it from slightly different angles in other sections . alastair birch: we are part of the universal service for children , and we very much work in co-operation with the wlga and our social care colleagues , and we 've been part of that consultation . in terms of education , the main changes , or adaptations , would be around training and awareness . and , in terms of the bill , there needs to be the clarity—ambiguity would be bad—in terms of making sure that safeguarding leads within all schools have the right training and support . so , really , that 's the key element there , and then obviously the preventative services for the parents that schools can signpost , and sometimes possibly even host , in terms of being community schools . these positive parenting approaches that— . i have colleagues who have worked in that area for many years and see the benefits in how those positive parenting approaches make a difference to families . dawn bowden am: so , from your point of view , it 's awareness raising , is it ? alastair birch: it 's awareness raising ; it 's making sure that professionals are fully briefed on necessary changes , that there 's very little ambiguity , that we are aware that— . we still have that duty to report whenever there is any safeguarding concern . that 'll still be part of the all-wales child protection procedures . that wo n't change , and that duty is always going to be there for all our professionals . but that awareness raising and training will be the key , and then , obviously , working in co-operation with our colleagues . dawn bowden am: okay , i understand that . have you been given an indication of how long you 've got between royal assent and implementation , and whether you 've thought through any of the key milestones that need to be implemented ? sally jenkins: there 's a group proposed that would be a strategic leadership group in the steering group that we 're part of , which is now laying out what would happen after royal assent if that is given . so , we will work towards that . dawn bowden am: okay . my final question , chair , is about some of the responses we 've had to this committee that say that the state should not get involved in family life—i 'm sure you 've heard those views—unless it 's in the most serious circumstances . to what extent do you think that this bill undermines the existing local authority responsibilities , or do n't you ? huw david: the state 's paramount role is to protect children from harm . that is our legal responsibility , it 's our moral responsibility , and we will discharge that . and there is obviously a view—it 's a view that is enshrined in the un convention on the rights of the child—that physical punishment , physical harm to a child is harm to a child , and we should be preventing that and act to prevent that . that would be the position of the welsh local government association , and we also respect the mandate that members of the national assembly for wales have too . and we believe that children can be raised by parents without recourse to physical punishment , effectively , and we 'd support parents in that . we do not believe that in the 50 nations across the world where such legislation exists that the state is interfering in family life unnecessarily . we believe this action reflects a cultural change , a sea change that 's taken place in wales over the last 30 to 40 years , where the vast majority of parents now say that they do not use it themselves , they do not support it , and we believe this is actually a reflection of what has happened in welsh society . we support assembly members in the view that the natural progression of that is that children 's rights are protected across wales . dawn bowden am: so , i 've got largely positive feedback from you in terms of the bill and its intentions , and so on . do you foresee any unintended consequences for this bill ? huw david: if we implement it carefully , if we implement it with the right resources , then i hope not . i think not . but as with every piece of legislation , it is about the implementation , it is about the cultural change as well , and that 's why i can not overstress the importance of making sure that resources are made available , because our social services departments—children 's social services in particular—are overstretched . they are at breaking point—make no bones about it—and they are dealing with children who are facing serious harm and neglect . we are having record numbers of contacts from police , from teachers , from doctors and , of course , from children themselves who are experiencing that harm and neglect . and obviously , we want to focus our energy and our attention on those children . equally , though , we do n't want to lose sight of those families and children that are experiencing significant problems , but who we want to support through our early intervention and prevention programmes , and that is why it is important that there is investment in those programmes , so that children do not end up in that terrible position where we have to , for their safety , take them from their birth families to protect them . and the reality is , in wales , that we are doing that to more children than we 've done for a long time , and the numbers are growing across wales . and that is only because of the most appalling neglect and abuse , because there is no way that any judge would permit us to act to make a child safe if it was not for that fact , and the facts are there . so , i do n't want that focus to be lost , but , of course , we welcome and understand the need to progress this piece of legislation . dawn bowden am: that rise that you talk about here , is that due to more interventions , greater awareness , more incidents ? i 'm trying to link this to the bill in terms of whether the bill is actually going to give you more work to do in those areas . sally jenkins: on the reasons for the rise in the numbers of looked-after children in wales , which are higher than those in england , and also the numbers of contacts that we have across the local authorities , the work of the care crisis review , which was completed last year ; the work of isabelle trowler , who 's the chief social worker in england ; countless research and reports that have taken place in the last 18 months ; and currently the public law working group , under the auspices of the president of the family court , would all indicate that it 's multifactorial . so , what you have is a range of reasons that have led to the increasing numbers of children becoming looked after across england and wales . what you ca n't do is identify a single reason . there have been headlines that have said , 'is it increased austerity ? ' that is clearly a part of this . is it in wales an increased awareness of adverse childhood experiences and the emphasis of the impact on children of , for example , domestic abuse ? is it because of our understanding of what happens to children in those households ? all of that research would say it 's all of those things . and then , when you also add in changes in our practice with our colleagues in the judiciary , changes in our police service , but also changes in our preventative services , you 've got that whole range of elements . and there is going on across the local authorities and welsh government a huge amount of work to try to address and understand that , and then to ameliorate that . children who need to be in care for safety need to be in care , but what we have to do is get to a point where fewer children come into care and we 're able to protect them , firstly , and secondly where those children who are in care are cared for in a way that delivers the best possible outcomes for them . so , there is no simple answer unfortunately . i think , in terms of this bill and unintended consequences , i agree absolutely with everything that huw has said . my job is around children at that far end , but what this bill does is it brings clarity . it brings a clarity even for those children at that very far end . it takes away even that point of discussion that this could possibly be okay , and i think that 's important to hang on to . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . sorry . alastair birch: one unintended consequences is that i think that there will be an increased focus on the uncrc . and , in terms of children having a discussion around this point , children need to be part of that discussion . it 's something that affects them . and a key aspect of education is the voice of the child . it has become significantly— . it 's changed completely in the last 10 years , and it is one of the key things in terms of us driving improvements . dawn bowden am: would that be something that you would be looking to do in schools ? alastair birch: anything that improves the voice of the child in any educational context is good and it 's very powerful for the children . and it improves their educational experiences , encouraging the opportunities for them to discuss the issues , the adverse childhood experiences that they encounter , which are significant , and it 's our educational professionals that are facing this day-in , day-out . they 've become a very highly trained workforce , they 're ace aware , they 're trauma aware , and anything that focuses , even increases , their professionalism and understanding around a particular point , and also— . so it 's a positive unintended consequence , shall we say , that it could reinvigorate some of the voice of the child discussion within various contexts . dawn bowden am: okay . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: we 've got some specific questions now on implementation for social services , from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . if this bill becomes law , would you encourage members of the public to contact social services departments if they do see a child being smacked ? sally jenkins: we already encourage members of the public to contact social services or the police , depending on the circumstances . interestingly , i 'm picking— janet finch-saunders am: what , if a child is being smacked now ? sally jenkins: yes . if a child is being smacked now , we would ask that people contact . we have a duty to report , as professionals . but if you were walking out , and you saw something happening to a child , in the same way as if you saw something to an adult . janet finch-saunders am: right . sally jenkins: so , i think that the challenge is about—we 've all probably , sadly , witnessed incidents in the doctor 's reception , or in a supermarket , and we 've failed to do something about it . and i think we then walk away and feel pretty guilty about that , realistically , when you see something happening to a child in a particular circumstance . i think we ca n't ignore the fact that a child is being assaulted in those circumstances . janet finch-saunders am: okay . thank you . a campaign opposing this bill , be reasonable wales , have said that 'if the law is changed , the consequences for parents will be considerable . ' it also says , 'anyone accused or convicted of assaulting a child—under the new definition— ' so , i suppose you could argue , a minor tap— 'will be subject to long-term social services involvement in their family and social stigma . ' to what extent is this accurate , and , also , will thresholds for social services intervention change if the bill is enacted ? sally jenkins: there are a number of parts to that . firstly , in terms of long-term social services intervention in a family 's life , i think , for people to be fully aware of the very few numbers of families where we have long-term intervention currently , even where there is what would be perceived as very significant abuse . what we do is we go in for short periods in families ' lives , to support them to work with their strengths , to work with them and their family members . it 's not about us going into families , whatever some of the public perception may be . our aim is to get in and get out . so , in terms of long-term intervention , what we want is for families to find their own solutions . we want families to be able to work with each other , and together , and local community support , and preventative services , to be able to address issues . this is not about punitive approaches from social services . so , that 's the first element . in terms of thresholds for children 's services , we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us . there may be a small number of referrals that come through . what we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle . we recognise that 's likely to happen . because we also know that this is actually quite a rare occurrence currently ; this is not a defence that 's being used with great frequency , this is not something that is happening . and if we look at the data , we know that the incidents of children , and the number of parents who now recognise this as an acceptable form of punishment , has steadily declined over the last 15 to 20 years . so it 's diminishing as it is . janet finch-saunders am: so , on that one then , is there a need for legislation that will—obviously there 'll be resources for the welsh government and there 'll be resources out of hours and things like that—is there a need for legislation if , as you say , natural behaviour and the culture is changing ? let 's be honest , as you 've rightly pointed out , in social services—i know in my own authority—in your own authority , you 're saying that even now you 're working with the police , on systematic failings within the system . sally jenkins: two things . firstly , we want legislation that reflects our society—we do n't want the two to be out of kilter . that would be my first natural response : surely our legislation should be reflective of what our world is . it should n't be that we 've got these rather confusing elements running in parallel , and that continues to perpetuate a lack of clarity and the ambiguity that we currently see . i think the other element is that , again , this is about potentially an accelerating of that awareness and that culture in our society , about how we care for our children . we 've got there naturally ; we 've got there by the change that 's happened in wales over the last 15 to 20 years . what this does is to continue with that change and continue with that awareness and understanding of how we positively , from a strength-based approach , should care for our children , bearing in mind what 's required of us in terms of the uncrc . janet finch-saunders am: okay . are there any comments from anyone else ? huw david: simply to say that i think that , in terms of that clarity for the very vulnerable children out there who are currently being assaulted—seriously assaulted and abused by their parents , which goes on on a daily basis—that is already covered by existing legislation . but at the moment , they do n't know , because they could be being told—and they probably are being told—by their parents that 's it 's okay , that they can smack their child and that that 's acceptable . they do n't know the difference . a young child is not going to know that difference and there is confusion about what is— . and if you asked most parents , and in fact lots of professionals , they would not be able to tell you , and probably most of you would n't be able to tell me exactly where is the threshold— janet finch-saunders am: yes , where 's that line . huw david: well , at the moment , we do n't know where that line is . that vulnerable child , at home , being abused by their parents , does not know where that line is . and they should know where that line is because then they can pick up the phone to childline or they can talk to a professional and ask them where that line is . so , that would be a step forward . i do recognise , though , that what we do n't want to do—and the last thing any of us want to do—is criminalise parents who are bringing up their children . that is why we 're saying there needs to be an emphasis on the support programmes that are available to parents . and to be clear , there is no way that we want long-term involvement in any child 's life , but particularly not in the lives of children who have been smacked by their parents . that is not going to be the result of this legislation , trust me , because we do n't want to be involved in—we have n't got the resources to be involved in children 's lives . the social worker or the police officer—if they become involved , then there would be a proportionate response to that , and there 'll also be a test about whether or not that is progressed . so , if there is an allegation—if this legislation is passed—then that will be looked into and a consideration will be made about whether any action will be taken , and as with any allegation of the law being broken , there would be a proportionate response , as there is now . lynne neagle am: and the next question does relate to the practical response to that . janet . janet finch-saunders am: yes . can you outline the practical ways in which social services ' interaction with parents will change as a result of this proposed law and do you envisage that all referrals to the police will be automatically referred to social services for an assessment ? who 's going to make those decisions ? sally jenkins: that will be part of the implementation phase about that decision making . interestingly , the number of referrals that we currently get from the police that we take absolutely no action on is extraordinary . so , we get a very , very large number of— . it will be happening now ; sitting in the civic centre in newport city council will be a whole host of social workers taking in the public protection notifications from overnight . it 's 10 o'clock , so they 're assessing them now , as we speak . and an awful lot of those will have no further action from the local authority . janet finch-saunders am: but will they be investigated ? sally jenkins: no . there will be no action . there are countless referrals made by agencies to local authorities that we take no action on . janet finch-saunders am: so , if there 's an increase as a result of greater awareness— sally jenkins: what happens is there is a paper assessment of them . there 's a look at what 's happened , who 's involved , what the police have reported , and there 's work being done with the police to improve that . because one of the things that we want to get to is actually where we 're not using huge amounts of time to look at that , but what comes to us is what we act on . so , there is work going on with a number of police authorities to look at how you improve that process . but i suppose , to pick up , each incident will be looked at , each one will be assessed in a way that is proportionate , as huw says , to look at what 's happened and then investigated . lynne neagle am: sally , can you give us a couple of examples of what kind of things might have come in that you would then take no action on ? sally jenkins: we get countless referrals , for example , where there 's been a domestic abuse incident overnight where a child was n't present in the property and we then have n't taken action . it ’ ll be where the level of harm that ’ s perceived to happen to that child is below the threshold for intervention from children 's services . janet finch-saunders am: i ’ m pretty cynical about assessment , because , you know , i have people come in who are benefit claimants where , when they ’ ve been assessed , the whole process has been very flawed and i ’ ve had to fight and fight and fight on their behalf . so— sally jenkins: assessment processes within social— janet finch-saunders am: but if you 're struggling now with those assessments— sally jenkins: assessment processes within social services are as laid out in the social services and well-being ( wales ) act 2014. so , we have within what we carry out , i suppose , that kind of initial look , that look at the information , what else do we know about that family— janet finch-saunders am: and are they qualified people that are doing this ? sally jenkins: yes , absolutely . huw david: and , in fact , in lots of places in wales now , it ’ s a multi-agency assessment . so , it ’ s a joint assessment carried out with police professionals and health professionals . janet finch-saunders am: so , what proportion currently would you not be taking any action on , if a report came in of some domestic abuse where a child had perhaps been smacked ? sally jenkins: if something came in to us where a child had been smacked and there was something clearly there , we would look at it . we would clearly look at it and we would take some sort of action . janet finch-saunders am: even now , before the legislation ? sally jenkins: yes . lynne neagle am: can you ask a final question ? and i 'm going to have to appeal for brief answers , because we 've got a lot of ground to cover . huw david: just very quickly , there may be no action from social services , but it doesn ’ t mean that we don ’ t offer support . so , the expectation is that support is offered in those circumstances from family support services , for example— sally jenkins: or prevention . huw david: —or prevention services . so , we would not say , if we were aware , for example , that there was domestic abuse at a home , ‘ there ’ s no role for children ’ s social services ’ , because there may be an assessment that that child may not be at immediate risk of harm , but we would obviously recognise that there are causes for concern there and we would offer that support . so , just to be clear about that . and that ’ s a process that happens in every social services department in the uk , and it ’ s happened for a very long time , and , in fact , it ’ s reflective of the legislation that you have laid down as assembly members . lynne neagle am: and are those services there , huw ? because i ’ m very acutely aware of the pressure on local government . are the services there ? is there sufficient resource in things like families first ? because what i ’ m hearing on the ground is that eligibility is changing for even those preventative services . huw david: there ’ s not enough of those services , and , obviously—you may have heard me saying this before—i think we need to invest more in those services , and i hope you invest more in the services , because , obviously , prevention is better than cure . and those pressures that sally talked about earlier are pressures that are not going away ; they ’ re only increasing by the day , actually , and i would want us to be able to offer those services now . because that example of a child that perhaps is in a home where there is domestic abuse—we ’ ll probably have another referral off them in a couple of months ’ time , and that could escalate . and what i ’ d rather do is provide support to that family and try and stop that family breaking down so that , in six months , we 're not going back and saying that we 've got to take this child into care because the domestic abuse has worsened and that child is at risk . but those services need additional investment . sally jenkins: i appreciate that time is of the essence , but , just really quickly in relation to that , it ’ s not just social services . so , for example , there are developments like encompass , which is a piece of work that is being rolled out across gwent and across other areas , which is where the police automatically notify the school overnight of an incident , not expecting the school to do anything per se , but to be aware , to be able to offer care for that child . alastair birch: can i add to that ? operation encompass i know in gwent has been operational , and we started it in pembrokeshire 18 months ago . we as a local authority—and it ’ ll be education that will contact the school around the domestic incident happening , and the school as part of that protocol will provide a level of universal service support for that child when they come in , before 9 o ’ clock , so that professionals are aware of the needs of the welfare of that child at that point . so , you know , schools play a key role in the universal service of this and we work very closely with our social care colleagues on that . lynne neagle am: okay . janet , your last question , please . janet finch-saunders am: the bill 's explanatory memorandum refers to an estimate of 274 offences annually where lawful chastisement was used as a defence or considered . it says there is also potential to create extra demand on out-of-hours social services teams due to the time that the offences were reported , and in order to support safeguarding measures . have you assessed how this bill will impact on emergency and out-of-hours local authority services ? sally jenkins: we have considered that , and again i think that 's something that we would very much want to look at as part of implementation . we have out-of-hours provision , we have emergency duty teams already across wales that operate 24/7 . there 's no doubt that they exist and they work very closely with our police colleagues . janet finch-saunders am: are they overstretched at the moment ? sally jenkins: i think in the same way as all of social services is . if we were offered additional resource , we are going to take that . but are they working in a way that protects children day in , day out , and vulnerable adults ? yes , they are , and they will continue to do so . lynne neagle am: thank you very much . we 've got some specific questions now on the impact on education from jayne bryant . jayne bryant am: thank you , chair . good morning . alastair , you 've already mentioned about awareness raising and training , which will be key with educational professionals . how confident are you that teachers and others working in those educational settings will be clear about how to support the implementation of this bill , if enacted ? alastair birch: training requirements for all professionals in education settings are clear . the universal tier 1 training is there , and all local authorities in wales will implement that . in that level of general safeguarding awareness and training , the infinite emphasis is on the duty to report . that will remain the same . the thresholds for social care , that 's their responsibility . that duty to report will always be there . it says in 'keeping learners safe ' , which is the bible in terms of education professionals , that there 's a responsibility on the professional to make that referral and for that universal service . so , the more specialist safeguarding leads within the schools , who have become highly skilled professionals in terms of understanding what might be significant harm—because that 's what we 're talking about—they understand the legalities when a referral needs to be made . there 's always the collation of safeguarding information , where there might be just general concerns about neglect and other areas , which combined would create a picture that there might be significant neglect or significant harm to the child , and then that referral would be made to the child care assessment team or the police . so , that awareness—it needs to be clear for educational professionals that that duty to report is always there . if they believe that that significant harm has happened then that report then goes to the child care assessment team . they will make the judgment on the threshold because they are the professionals . they have the multi-agency awareness of how that meets the threshold . but in terms of education , it 'll be that awareness , making sure that there 's clarity . if there 's anything that professionals need to be trained additionally on , it 'll need to go into 'keeping learners safe ' , which at the moment is being rewritten . so , there would have to be some new possible information there relating to this . but as long as there 's clarity , and once that implementation phase and the discussion has happened , as long as it 's clear for professionals that the duty is always there and they feel a significant harm , then that report will always be there and will always need to be made . it 's making sure—and i 'll echo what my colleague said , huw—that the services are key for families . schools are absolutely fundamental in that support for the families . they have those relationships with the families . i know there was discussion around professional trust . on a daily basis , professionals are working on that trust with parents , because they are the ones that can engage with those families . the family support officers that are working on the ground with highly complex families , with multiple leads and supporting the children—they are fundamental , and investment in that level of support would also help our colleagues as well . so , anything that 's preventative . that is already happening in schools and is effective , and is shown to be effective , and has an evidence base—we 'd always support that that would continue to be invested in . so , that 's really my answer . jayne bryant am: okay . and you were saying about how important trust is as well , but do you think that there 's a risk that those in education settings will have a key role in referring more parents to social services , which some have said could cause potential harm to relationships and cause mistrust ? alastair birch: i do n't think it 's a matter of mistrust—it 's a matter of , you know , if a professional believes , based on the evidence that they have , because they 're working with that child every day , that there is significant harm to that child , they are under a duty to report that to social care . so , part of the work is with families , and most of the referrals we make are with parental consent . that consent is a key element of this , and conversation with our social care colleagues is usually , 'you need to speak to the parents again and have a conversation with them . ' some of the nfas—the ones that do n't get referred at threshold—it will come back to school for , possibly , some support from the family or a team around the family or some other aspect . so , i do n't think— . the trust in the professionals—it 's actually more important that we are seen to be upholding our duties under the all-wales safeguarding procedures . that 's what engenders trust in a professional workforce . jayne bryant am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you very much . we 're going to move on now to some questions about the importance of awareness raising from siân gwenllian . sian gwenllian am: good morning . in looking at your written evidence , you say that we must make it very clear to parents , guardians and the public that this legislation is not trying to criminalise parents , and that is clearly very important for you . how do you think we should do that and who should be doing that work ? sally jenkins: i think that 's really broad . obviously , colleagues in education , colleagues in social care , colleagues in preventative services , but also welsh government and the national assembly , in terms of those drivers in relation to that awareness raising are really , really key . if you look at some of the other campaigns that have been run , notably in relation to violence against women , domestic abuse and sexual violence , and echoing some of those building campaigns that have been done to raise awareness—i think those would be really good models to begin to consider in terms of how this is taken forward with awareness . we also know that there are a number of routes that we can go through in terms of raising awareness . we have existing preventative services , we have all our universal services , we have the regional safeguarding boards and the national safeguarding boards . so , there are a number of avenues that we could then explore . in terms of not wishing to criminalise , i think if we look at the numbers , they are very , very small . and i think one of the things we need to hold on to in this is a sense of proportion about what is or is n't likely to happen once or if this bill ever gets to the point of royal assent—they are small numbers who currently use this defence . it is about that wider issue of awareness raising , and using all of those avenues will help us to do that in the broadest sense . sian gwenllian am: do you , therefore , believe that this needs to be on the face of the bill ? that is , you do n't say this in your evidence . i 'd like to know your opinion on that . scotland is going to be making it a duty for scottish ministers to raise awareness of the impact of the bill . so far , the welsh government says that we do n't need to do that in wales . would n't it make it clearer for you if it was a clear duty on the face of the bill , for example as it was with the human transplantation ( wales ) act 2013 ? there was a duty in that act for ministers to promote transplantation . surely , that awareness raising aspect would be clearer for everyone if it was on the face of the bill . do you have an opinion on that ? huw david: well , welsh government have given that commitment , and i know the welsh government honour every commitment that they make— [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: that 's why i 'm asking . huw david: i do n't know whether that is necessary—i 'm not a legislator . i think that there 's obviously an inherent interest in welsh government raising awareness , because we have to raise awareness effectively for this to be successful , otherwise we will have parents who feel that they 're being criminalised , and that 's the last thing we want . i think it 's worthy of consideration , but , as i say , i 'm not a legislator or a lawyer , so i do n't know what implications that will have long term . but to be fair to welsh government , i think that commitment is one that i 'm sure will be honoured , because welsh government will want to make a success of this bill if it does receive royal assent . sian gwenllian am: okay . but is it clear who would pay for all of that ? huw david: i 've suddenly changed my mind— [ laughter . ] i think it should be a duty on welsh government ministers—absolutely . i do n't need to check with lawyers or legislators . there we go . and that 's the wlga position ; i do n't need to ask the other 21 leaders on that either . [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: would n't it make it clearer if there was a clear duty on the face of the bill that awareness raising had to happen ? it would be clearer , then , for local authorities and people in the front-line services what needs to happen . sally jenkins: i 'm going to echo huw . [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: i thought you might . okay , fine . lynne neagle am: okay . we 're moving on now , then , to the contentious issue of resources and we 've got some questions from hefin . hefin david am: sally jenkins , you said that the purpose of the bill is to bring clarity and to remove what is a little-used defence . is n't this an expensive way of doing that ? sally jenkins: i do n't think so , no . i think that our children deserve the best legislation . hefin david am: but introducing this legislation diverts finances from other areas of children 's services—or does n't ? sally jenkins: well , i would say , no , i do n't think it will divert resources from children 's services . firstly , going back to the comment made , i think , proportionally , this is a very small number of cases . it 's a very small number of existing cases that go through in terms of prosecution , or consideration for prosecution . we know that it 's likely , from some of the work that we 've already done , that it 's not opening floodgates for a sudden sea of referrals to children 's services—that 's not the way this is going to be , because the numbers are not out there because of the changes that have already happened in welsh family life and welsh society . so , i think as part of the implementation phase , we need to have a really clear understanding of the trajectory of those costs and what 's likely to happen over the first six months , 12 months in terms of people 's awareness and understanding and what is referred and how that 's worked . but in terms of a huge number , no , i do n't anticipate it being that . hefin david am: but the costs would n't just be directed to the number of referrals and the number of cases raised , it 's the cost around that , with training of staff , awareness—all those extra additional costs that always come with legislation . is it too much ? is it— ? sally jenkins: no . and i agree with that—that there clearly are—but if you think , many of those things will be aligned with work we are already doing , but it brings a clarity to that work . so , our teachers , our social workers , our health workers , our police officers already get substantial training around child protection , around safeguarding , around adverse childhood experiences and around a trauma-informed approach to children . what this does is it layers a clarity on that . but rather than having a part of that training , which has to deal with this as an aspect—that is no longer there ; it is a clear message for all professions . hefin david am: i fully appreciate that , and in the briefing note you 've given us , you 've outlined the pressures on social services . so , do you think this is another way of getting money into social services ? sally jenkins: if this was a way of getting money into— . i can think of better ways , but i do n't think this is it . no , i mean , i absolutely do not think that . i think this is a clear commitment to the rights of children in wales ; this is not about levering additional resources into children 's services . oh that it was so simple . hefin david am: okay . and , do you think those costs are quantifiable ? sally jenkins: i think we are currently looking at work and are doing work across my own local authority and across two others to look at breaking down those costs , not just for local authority , but also for health , for police and for children and family court advisory and support service cymru . so , there is work currently taking place to try to quantify those costs . hefin david am: okay . i think there was a bit about local authorities that siân— lynne neagle am: okay . siân gwenllian has got a question on resources . sian gwenllian am: yes , just to carry on from that , in a way . the explanatory memorandum that accompanies the bill talks about the unknown costs for different agencies . you mentioned there that you 're doing work around trying to identify some of those costs , but would n't it be useful if the explanatory memorandum did explain more about any unknown or unidentified costs , partly in order to calm some of those fears around that ? giving a title 'unidentified costs'—is that good enough ? sally jenkins: i think , clearly , that is a challenge , and that is work that we are participating in and are committed to completing with welsh government , to look at what those costs are . sian gwenllian am: and then they can be added into this . huw david: i think this is where it would be helpful in the committee 's deliberations and where our concern would be , because the reality is we 're not going to know what the costs are until it 's actually implemented , because we have n't implemented this before . and , therefore , i think there needs to be a commitment that , whatever the costs are , those costs are met because it is legislation that is being led by the national assembly for wales . and whilst we do n't see it as levering in additional resources , we do n't think it should be at the expense of current service provision to vulnerable families in wales , and therefore it 's important that it is properly and fully resourced . sian gwenllian am: what i would argue on that is that you have to try and forecast . you say it 's difficult to forecast how much this is going to cost , but we have to try and forecast that , and part of the argument for trying to have projections is to show that , perhaps , it 's not going to cost that much , and that would add to the argument that , 'okay , this is going to be fine to do and it 's not going to put too much pressure on us ' . or we need to know that this is going to cost a lot to do it effectively , and therefore you have to make your argument , then , 'well , we ca n't afford that , the money has to come from somewhere else . ' we have to get the costs , surely . huw david: yes , and we will work very closely with welsh government to try and establish those costs as quickly as possible . there will be some costs that we will be able to identify . so , for example , a campaign , an awareness-raising campaign , the marketing , if you like , but some of the other costs will be more difficult to establish in terms of the resource implications for front-line workers . i expressed a view that we need to see some additional investment in some of those programmes that are not targeted directly at families that would be impacted by this but support all families across wales that have different needs , and some of that provision is universal . obviously , my view is the more we put into that , the better . so , there 's no limit to that , but i suspect welsh government will take a very different view to that . but i think that is something where we need to see a commitment to some additional resources . but i do n't put an upper limit on that , because i do n't think there 's an authority in wales , and i do n't think there 's a charity , a police service or a health board in wales that does n't think that we need to do more of that and could offer more of that if the resources were available . sian gwenllian am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've come to the end of our time , so can i thank you all for attending and for answering all of our questions ? it 's been a really useful and informative discussion . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you again , all of you , for coming . huw david: and thank you for your questions and engagement . we welcome the opportunity . alastair birch: thank you very much . sally jenkins: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: okay , item 3 is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the minister for housing and local government—additional information for our inquiry into school funding . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for health and social services on in-patient child and adolescent mental health services provision , and i would like to briefly return to that when we go into private . are members happy to note those ? thank you . item 4 , then : can i propose a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? thank you .

there were totally two questions proposed on impact on education . first , jayne bryant asked how confident they were that teachers and others working in those educational settings would be clear about how to support the implementation of this bill . alastair birch responded that training requirements for all professionals in education settings were clear . the awareness needed to be clear for educational professionals that the duty to report was there . the second question was about whether there was a risk that those in education settings would have a key role in referring more parents to social services , which could cause potential harm to relationships and cause mistrust . alastair birch disagreed that this was a matter of mistrust . he thought if a professional believed there was significant harm to that child , they were under a duty to report that to social care .

how confident alastair birch was that teachers and others working in those educational settings would be clear about how to support the implementation of this bill ? </s> lynne neagle am: okay . good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from suzy davies and jack sargeant and i 'm very pleased to welcome jayne bryant back , who is substituting for jack today . are there any declarations of interest from members , please ? no . okay , thank you . item 2 , then , this morning , is our sixth scrutiny session on the children ( abolition of defence of reasonable punishment ) ( wales ) bill . i 'm very pleased to welcome our witnesses this morning : sally jenkins , who is chair of all wales heads of children ’ s services and is here representing the association of directors of social services ; alastair birch , who is senior system leader for equalities and safeguarding at pembrokeshire county council , who is here representing the association of directors of education wales ; and councillor huw david , who is the welsh local government association spokesperson for health and social care and leader of bridgend county borough council . so , thank you all for attending this morning . we 're very pleased to have you here . we 've got a lot of ground to cover , so , if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions and i 'll start just by asking about your general support for the bill , which is outlined in the evidence . can you just explain why you think the current law is ineffective or unclear ? alastair birch: bore da—bore da , bawb . so , i 'm alastair birch . the statement , really , from adew is that the rights of the child should be educated and achieved , really , under the united nations convention on the rights of the child . the current legislation has been criticised , obviously , by the un concerning the defence of reasonable punishment still being within our current legislation . so , we will always—adew will always—advocate that the rights of the child be upheld , so that is really the fundamental aspect in terms of the statement from adew , and the position of adew is that the rights of the child are fundamental in this process . and there are certain articles— . i know that the rights of children and young persons ( wales ) measure 2011 made sure that article 3 and article 4 , article 12 and article 37 were a focus in terms of making sure that the best interests of the child were put first , that children expressing their views and opinions was a priority . and we know , for safeguarding purposes , that the express opinions of the child and the voice of the child are a fundamental aspect of any safe environment , whether it be a school or college . so , that is—the position is really following that legal position under the rights of children and young persons ( wales ) measure . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . nothing to add at this stage , no ? sally jenkins: i 'll just add , on behalf of adss and on behalf of children 's services and social services more widely , for us , this is not a change in our position , this is not new ; this is a position that we , on behalf of the leaders of social services across wales , have taken over many years , going back 20 , 25 years . i think what we would say is that we really welcome this bill and we welcome the proposed change for the clarity it would bring—the clarity that it would bring for children , for parents and for professionals . i think what we would recognise is that this is a very little-used piece of legislation , so it 's rare , it 's not as if this is something that is going to cast great change across the scene for children and families in wales , but what it will do is represent a change in the reality of how we care and nurture our children . i would echo absolutely what alastair has said in terms of the rights of the child , but equally , in terms of all of our policies in wales in terms of promoting well-being for children , this has to be key . so , for us , this is about a natural progression of change in how we care for our children in wales . for children 's services at the very sharp end of this world , for us , it brings a true clarity . this continues with an ambiguity in how we treat our children and how we care for our children , and the shift for us brings that very much needed clarity . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the committee has already heard different views about whether there 's clear evidence that physical punishment is harmful to children . what evidence does the work of social services provide about whether physical punishment is actually harmful ? sally jenkins: obviously , what you 'll all be aware of is that , as part of the consultation for this bill , the public policy institute did a further piece of research to look at the impact of physical punishment on children . a number of things that we know—we know from across the world that the evidence is that introducing legislation or changing legislation in this way improves children 's positions within their families . what we know is that children themselves , as alastair has already referred to , really find physical punishment demeaning and harmful , and for children it is an emotionally damaging experience . now , there may be disagreement about that , there will be different views on that , but that 's the voice of the child in this debate . the voice of the child is very clear that physical punishment is for them harmful . i think what we would also say is that , in the world that we work in , it 's part of a continuum , and , whilst this is an element of how children are cared for , what we see is a continuum where an acceptance of how we treat children in a particular way perpetuates throughout our work . by changing this , it helps that shift to that absolute recognition that our children must be cared for in a way that is physically safe in all dimensions for them . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've had evidence from the equal protection network that the reasonable punishment defence undermines child protection and fails to protect children because it permits an arbitrary level of violence , which invades children 's physical integrity , making it a potential pathway to more serious physical or sexual abuse , and you did refer to that just now . is there anything you want to add on that ? sally jenkins: i would echo that . i think there is something in this that is about our culture , about how we see our children . it is about how we see our smallest and most vulnerable people , and if it is acceptable it opens the door to those other , more extreme versions of violence , which then complicates the issue for us . this is about clarity , and , whilst there is an argument that this is a small episode for a child , it 's not a small episode for a child , it is a major episode for a child , and i think absolutely , as you said , the potential for it then to lead on , and over gradation and time to increase the risk for children , is clearly there . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the final question from me : your written evidence emphasises the need for greater clarity around the definition of what constitutes corporal punishment , but that contrasts with what we 've been told by the children 's commissioner and the equal protection network , who 've emphasised the importance of simplicity in the bill . how do you respond to that view , and is what you 're calling for essential to be on the face of the bill ? sally jenkins: it 's not essential for it to be on the face of the bill . what we would like to see is discussion within the implementation phase for that nuancing . absolutely agree in terms of simplicity—i think that is really important—and i 've already mentioned clarity . what we do n't want to do is further confuse the position . we know that the legislation in different countries has done that , and there are ways that you can do it , but what we would welcome is an opportunity during the implementation phase for discussion . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . huw david: and , as a principle , obviously we would welcome full involvement , and we know there 's the commitment from welsh government to full involvement in the implementation , because , as with every piece of legislation , implementation is the most important part , and we would want to ensure there is that commitment to a major awareness-raising campaign , and there is that from welsh government , because we need to take families , carers and parents with us on this . also we need to ensure that there is that support available to parents and carers that do sometimes struggle with parenting , and that needs to be a universal offer across wales . if we 're to progress with this , that has to be an option that is offered to every parent in wales . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . sally jenkins: local authorities have already been very heavily involved in terms of looking at this bill and exploring what the issues are and the discussions and looking at what the implications from a local authority perspective will be , as huw describes , both in terms of the awareness raising , early support and intervention and prevention services for families against the backdrop of the current issues that we have in local government , but also awareness raising—because absolutely it is key that families come with us on this journey . this is not an imposition . this is embracing a culture and a value system for our children . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . i 've got some questions now from dawn bowden on the implementation of the bill . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . so , you 've pre-empted me , huw . huw david: right . sorry . i 've got good eyesight ; i ca n't see— . [ laughter . ] dawn bowden am: you 've already said , obviously , that you 're looking towards working with welsh government in terms of its implementation . what 's been your role so far in terms of the implementation of the bill—local authorities generally , now ? have you had a role ? has welsh government been involving you in discussions around the introduction of the bill so far ? huw david: yes . so , obviously we were consulted—a key consultee—but also our officials have worked very closely with welsh government officials to make sure this is implemented successfully , if it is progressed . sally jenkins: our involvement with this , from a social services perspective , goes back over two years , directly in working towards this point , never mind the history in terms of work towards this area . but , very directly in relation to this bill , we were first involved at least two years ago , to recollect , and that was in a series of workshops with other agencies , for example children and family court advisory and support service cymru and the police , and looking in real depth at what the implications would be for us as agencies to look at what the likely trajectory would be in terms of our pathways for referral into our services and what that might mean for us . and then particularly , for example , with cafcass cymru in relation to private law , what the fallout might be , and then what , if anything—and that 's the discussion that we need to have—that could mean for children 's services in particular , given the pressures that we 're already under . so , we 've been in constant , i suppose , involvement in terms of the bill already , as part of the consultation , in terms of the focus groups and in terms of direct work with welsh government officials to take this forward . and we are absolutely committed to continuing with that work . dawn bowden am: okay . you touched there on the pressures that you 're already under , which we fully appreciate , but you also mentioned in answers to lynne neagle earlier on that you welcomed the bill in terms of its clarity . so , are you confident that the bill can be implemented without any major impact on your capacity to deal with it ? sally jenkins: we 've done— . a number of local authorities—my own included , newport city council , has done some work to look at what the likely impact would be and then actually to look at what some of that costing would need to be . further work is needed on that area , and that needs to be carried out during the implementation phase . i think what we 've done is we 've looked internationally at what the impact has been elsewhere when similar legislation has been introduced to try and gauge , but that 's difficult to do in terms of comparable nations and size and also different systems . and obviously our approach in terms of children and pedagogy is very different from some of the nations that have already done this . i would n't like to say one way or the other , because i think , in terms of that culture shift , it could be a double impact on us in terms of increased referrals because of increased awareness , but it could also be , i suppose , as huw alludes to , that , if we 're looking at ensuring greater awareness of preventative services and support services for parents , actually people coming to the fore and asking us for those services as well . so , at this stage , i think what we would want to say is that we continue to be fully involved in the implementation phase , to look at what the cost implications for that could be , and not just for the local authorities but also the police , cafcass cymru , for third sector organisations involved in preventative services . i do n't think any of that should undermine the position in terms of children and their rights within our society . so , a difficult answer , in the sense that— dawn bowden am: no , i understand . what you 're saying is that this is a piece of legislation that , in your view , is a good piece of legislation . it 's setting out to , hopefully , achieve what the purpose of it is and you will deliver what you need to . can i ask you whether , then , you 've also given thought to the impact on—we 've talked about social services , but the impact on other services , like housing , education and so on ? you 're obviously coming at it from slightly different angles in other sections . alastair birch: we are part of the universal service for children , and we very much work in co-operation with the wlga and our social care colleagues , and we 've been part of that consultation . in terms of education , the main changes , or adaptations , would be around training and awareness . and , in terms of the bill , there needs to be the clarity—ambiguity would be bad—in terms of making sure that safeguarding leads within all schools have the right training and support . so , really , that 's the key element there , and then obviously the preventative services for the parents that schools can signpost , and sometimes possibly even host , in terms of being community schools . these positive parenting approaches that— . i have colleagues who have worked in that area for many years and see the benefits in how those positive parenting approaches make a difference to families . dawn bowden am: so , from your point of view , it 's awareness raising , is it ? alastair birch: it 's awareness raising ; it 's making sure that professionals are fully briefed on necessary changes , that there 's very little ambiguity , that we are aware that— . we still have that duty to report whenever there is any safeguarding concern . that 'll still be part of the all-wales child protection procedures . that wo n't change , and that duty is always going to be there for all our professionals . but that awareness raising and training will be the key , and then , obviously , working in co-operation with our colleagues . dawn bowden am: okay , i understand that . have you been given an indication of how long you 've got between royal assent and implementation , and whether you 've thought through any of the key milestones that need to be implemented ? sally jenkins: there 's a group proposed that would be a strategic leadership group in the steering group that we 're part of , which is now laying out what would happen after royal assent if that is given . so , we will work towards that . dawn bowden am: okay . my final question , chair , is about some of the responses we 've had to this committee that say that the state should not get involved in family life—i 'm sure you 've heard those views—unless it 's in the most serious circumstances . to what extent do you think that this bill undermines the existing local authority responsibilities , or do n't you ? huw david: the state 's paramount role is to protect children from harm . that is our legal responsibility , it 's our moral responsibility , and we will discharge that . and there is obviously a view—it 's a view that is enshrined in the un convention on the rights of the child—that physical punishment , physical harm to a child is harm to a child , and we should be preventing that and act to prevent that . that would be the position of the welsh local government association , and we also respect the mandate that members of the national assembly for wales have too . and we believe that children can be raised by parents without recourse to physical punishment , effectively , and we 'd support parents in that . we do not believe that in the 50 nations across the world where such legislation exists that the state is interfering in family life unnecessarily . we believe this action reflects a cultural change , a sea change that 's taken place in wales over the last 30 to 40 years , where the vast majority of parents now say that they do not use it themselves , they do not support it , and we believe this is actually a reflection of what has happened in welsh society . we support assembly members in the view that the natural progression of that is that children 's rights are protected across wales . dawn bowden am: so , i 've got largely positive feedback from you in terms of the bill and its intentions , and so on . do you foresee any unintended consequences for this bill ? huw david: if we implement it carefully , if we implement it with the right resources , then i hope not . i think not . but as with every piece of legislation , it is about the implementation , it is about the cultural change as well , and that 's why i can not overstress the importance of making sure that resources are made available , because our social services departments—children 's social services in particular—are overstretched . they are at breaking point—make no bones about it—and they are dealing with children who are facing serious harm and neglect . we are having record numbers of contacts from police , from teachers , from doctors and , of course , from children themselves who are experiencing that harm and neglect . and obviously , we want to focus our energy and our attention on those children . equally , though , we do n't want to lose sight of those families and children that are experiencing significant problems , but who we want to support through our early intervention and prevention programmes , and that is why it is important that there is investment in those programmes , so that children do not end up in that terrible position where we have to , for their safety , take them from their birth families to protect them . and the reality is , in wales , that we are doing that to more children than we 've done for a long time , and the numbers are growing across wales . and that is only because of the most appalling neglect and abuse , because there is no way that any judge would permit us to act to make a child safe if it was not for that fact , and the facts are there . so , i do n't want that focus to be lost , but , of course , we welcome and understand the need to progress this piece of legislation . dawn bowden am: that rise that you talk about here , is that due to more interventions , greater awareness , more incidents ? i 'm trying to link this to the bill in terms of whether the bill is actually going to give you more work to do in those areas . sally jenkins: on the reasons for the rise in the numbers of looked-after children in wales , which are higher than those in england , and also the numbers of contacts that we have across the local authorities , the work of the care crisis review , which was completed last year ; the work of isabelle trowler , who 's the chief social worker in england ; countless research and reports that have taken place in the last 18 months ; and currently the public law working group , under the auspices of the president of the family court , would all indicate that it 's multifactorial . so , what you have is a range of reasons that have led to the increasing numbers of children becoming looked after across england and wales . what you ca n't do is identify a single reason . there have been headlines that have said , 'is it increased austerity ? ' that is clearly a part of this . is it in wales an increased awareness of adverse childhood experiences and the emphasis of the impact on children of , for example , domestic abuse ? is it because of our understanding of what happens to children in those households ? all of that research would say it 's all of those things . and then , when you also add in changes in our practice with our colleagues in the judiciary , changes in our police service , but also changes in our preventative services , you 've got that whole range of elements . and there is going on across the local authorities and welsh government a huge amount of work to try to address and understand that , and then to ameliorate that . children who need to be in care for safety need to be in care , but what we have to do is get to a point where fewer children come into care and we 're able to protect them , firstly , and secondly where those children who are in care are cared for in a way that delivers the best possible outcomes for them . so , there is no simple answer unfortunately . i think , in terms of this bill and unintended consequences , i agree absolutely with everything that huw has said . my job is around children at that far end , but what this bill does is it brings clarity . it brings a clarity even for those children at that very far end . it takes away even that point of discussion that this could possibly be okay , and i think that 's important to hang on to . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . sorry . alastair birch: one unintended consequences is that i think that there will be an increased focus on the uncrc . and , in terms of children having a discussion around this point , children need to be part of that discussion . it 's something that affects them . and a key aspect of education is the voice of the child . it has become significantly— . it 's changed completely in the last 10 years , and it is one of the key things in terms of us driving improvements . dawn bowden am: would that be something that you would be looking to do in schools ? alastair birch: anything that improves the voice of the child in any educational context is good and it 's very powerful for the children . and it improves their educational experiences , encouraging the opportunities for them to discuss the issues , the adverse childhood experiences that they encounter , which are significant , and it 's our educational professionals that are facing this day-in , day-out . they 've become a very highly trained workforce , they 're ace aware , they 're trauma aware , and anything that focuses , even increases , their professionalism and understanding around a particular point , and also— . so it 's a positive unintended consequence , shall we say , that it could reinvigorate some of the voice of the child discussion within various contexts . dawn bowden am: okay . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: we 've got some specific questions now on implementation for social services , from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . if this bill becomes law , would you encourage members of the public to contact social services departments if they do see a child being smacked ? sally jenkins: we already encourage members of the public to contact social services or the police , depending on the circumstances . interestingly , i 'm picking— janet finch-saunders am: what , if a child is being smacked now ? sally jenkins: yes . if a child is being smacked now , we would ask that people contact . we have a duty to report , as professionals . but if you were walking out , and you saw something happening to a child , in the same way as if you saw something to an adult . janet finch-saunders am: right . sally jenkins: so , i think that the challenge is about—we 've all probably , sadly , witnessed incidents in the doctor 's reception , or in a supermarket , and we 've failed to do something about it . and i think we then walk away and feel pretty guilty about that , realistically , when you see something happening to a child in a particular circumstance . i think we ca n't ignore the fact that a child is being assaulted in those circumstances . janet finch-saunders am: okay . thank you . a campaign opposing this bill , be reasonable wales , have said that 'if the law is changed , the consequences for parents will be considerable . ' it also says , 'anyone accused or convicted of assaulting a child—under the new definition— ' so , i suppose you could argue , a minor tap— 'will be subject to long-term social services involvement in their family and social stigma . ' to what extent is this accurate , and , also , will thresholds for social services intervention change if the bill is enacted ? sally jenkins: there are a number of parts to that . firstly , in terms of long-term social services intervention in a family 's life , i think , for people to be fully aware of the very few numbers of families where we have long-term intervention currently , even where there is what would be perceived as very significant abuse . what we do is we go in for short periods in families ' lives , to support them to work with their strengths , to work with them and their family members . it 's not about us going into families , whatever some of the public perception may be . our aim is to get in and get out . so , in terms of long-term intervention , what we want is for families to find their own solutions . we want families to be able to work with each other , and together , and local community support , and preventative services , to be able to address issues . this is not about punitive approaches from social services . so , that 's the first element . in terms of thresholds for children 's services , we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us . there may be a small number of referrals that come through . what we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle . we recognise that 's likely to happen . because we also know that this is actually quite a rare occurrence currently ; this is not a defence that 's being used with great frequency , this is not something that is happening . and if we look at the data , we know that the incidents of children , and the number of parents who now recognise this as an acceptable form of punishment , has steadily declined over the last 15 to 20 years . so it 's diminishing as it is . janet finch-saunders am: so , on that one then , is there a need for legislation that will—obviously there 'll be resources for the welsh government and there 'll be resources out of hours and things like that—is there a need for legislation if , as you say , natural behaviour and the culture is changing ? let 's be honest , as you 've rightly pointed out , in social services—i know in my own authority—in your own authority , you 're saying that even now you 're working with the police , on systematic failings within the system . sally jenkins: two things . firstly , we want legislation that reflects our society—we do n't want the two to be out of kilter . that would be my first natural response : surely our legislation should be reflective of what our world is . it should n't be that we 've got these rather confusing elements running in parallel , and that continues to perpetuate a lack of clarity and the ambiguity that we currently see . i think the other element is that , again , this is about potentially an accelerating of that awareness and that culture in our society , about how we care for our children . we 've got there naturally ; we 've got there by the change that 's happened in wales over the last 15 to 20 years . what this does is to continue with that change and continue with that awareness and understanding of how we positively , from a strength-based approach , should care for our children , bearing in mind what 's required of us in terms of the uncrc . janet finch-saunders am: okay . are there any comments from anyone else ? huw david: simply to say that i think that , in terms of that clarity for the very vulnerable children out there who are currently being assaulted—seriously assaulted and abused by their parents , which goes on on a daily basis—that is already covered by existing legislation . but at the moment , they do n't know , because they could be being told—and they probably are being told—by their parents that 's it 's okay , that they can smack their child and that that 's acceptable . they do n't know the difference . a young child is not going to know that difference and there is confusion about what is— . and if you asked most parents , and in fact lots of professionals , they would not be able to tell you , and probably most of you would n't be able to tell me exactly where is the threshold— janet finch-saunders am: yes , where 's that line . huw david: well , at the moment , we do n't know where that line is . that vulnerable child , at home , being abused by their parents , does not know where that line is . and they should know where that line is because then they can pick up the phone to childline or they can talk to a professional and ask them where that line is . so , that would be a step forward . i do recognise , though , that what we do n't want to do—and the last thing any of us want to do—is criminalise parents who are bringing up their children . that is why we 're saying there needs to be an emphasis on the support programmes that are available to parents . and to be clear , there is no way that we want long-term involvement in any child 's life , but particularly not in the lives of children who have been smacked by their parents . that is not going to be the result of this legislation , trust me , because we do n't want to be involved in—we have n't got the resources to be involved in children 's lives . the social worker or the police officer—if they become involved , then there would be a proportionate response to that , and there 'll also be a test about whether or not that is progressed . so , if there is an allegation—if this legislation is passed—then that will be looked into and a consideration will be made about whether any action will be taken , and as with any allegation of the law being broken , there would be a proportionate response , as there is now . lynne neagle am: and the next question does relate to the practical response to that . janet . janet finch-saunders am: yes . can you outline the practical ways in which social services ' interaction with parents will change as a result of this proposed law and do you envisage that all referrals to the police will be automatically referred to social services for an assessment ? who 's going to make those decisions ? sally jenkins: that will be part of the implementation phase about that decision making . interestingly , the number of referrals that we currently get from the police that we take absolutely no action on is extraordinary . so , we get a very , very large number of— . it will be happening now ; sitting in the civic centre in newport city council will be a whole host of social workers taking in the public protection notifications from overnight . it 's 10 o'clock , so they 're assessing them now , as we speak . and an awful lot of those will have no further action from the local authority . janet finch-saunders am: but will they be investigated ? sally jenkins: no . there will be no action . there are countless referrals made by agencies to local authorities that we take no action on . janet finch-saunders am: so , if there 's an increase as a result of greater awareness— sally jenkins: what happens is there is a paper assessment of them . there 's a look at what 's happened , who 's involved , what the police have reported , and there 's work being done with the police to improve that . because one of the things that we want to get to is actually where we 're not using huge amounts of time to look at that , but what comes to us is what we act on . so , there is work going on with a number of police authorities to look at how you improve that process . but i suppose , to pick up , each incident will be looked at , each one will be assessed in a way that is proportionate , as huw says , to look at what 's happened and then investigated . lynne neagle am: sally , can you give us a couple of examples of what kind of things might have come in that you would then take no action on ? sally jenkins: we get countless referrals , for example , where there 's been a domestic abuse incident overnight where a child was n't present in the property and we then have n't taken action . it ’ ll be where the level of harm that ’ s perceived to happen to that child is below the threshold for intervention from children 's services . janet finch-saunders am: i ’ m pretty cynical about assessment , because , you know , i have people come in who are benefit claimants where , when they ’ ve been assessed , the whole process has been very flawed and i ’ ve had to fight and fight and fight on their behalf . so— sally jenkins: assessment processes within social— janet finch-saunders am: but if you 're struggling now with those assessments— sally jenkins: assessment processes within social services are as laid out in the social services and well-being ( wales ) act 2014. so , we have within what we carry out , i suppose , that kind of initial look , that look at the information , what else do we know about that family— janet finch-saunders am: and are they qualified people that are doing this ? sally jenkins: yes , absolutely . huw david: and , in fact , in lots of places in wales now , it ’ s a multi-agency assessment . so , it ’ s a joint assessment carried out with police professionals and health professionals . janet finch-saunders am: so , what proportion currently would you not be taking any action on , if a report came in of some domestic abuse where a child had perhaps been smacked ? sally jenkins: if something came in to us where a child had been smacked and there was something clearly there , we would look at it . we would clearly look at it and we would take some sort of action . janet finch-saunders am: even now , before the legislation ? sally jenkins: yes . lynne neagle am: can you ask a final question ? and i 'm going to have to appeal for brief answers , because we 've got a lot of ground to cover . huw david: just very quickly , there may be no action from social services , but it doesn ’ t mean that we don ’ t offer support . so , the expectation is that support is offered in those circumstances from family support services , for example— sally jenkins: or prevention . huw david: —or prevention services . so , we would not say , if we were aware , for example , that there was domestic abuse at a home , ‘ there ’ s no role for children ’ s social services ’ , because there may be an assessment that that child may not be at immediate risk of harm , but we would obviously recognise that there are causes for concern there and we would offer that support . so , just to be clear about that . and that ’ s a process that happens in every social services department in the uk , and it ’ s happened for a very long time , and , in fact , it ’ s reflective of the legislation that you have laid down as assembly members . lynne neagle am: and are those services there , huw ? because i ’ m very acutely aware of the pressure on local government . are the services there ? is there sufficient resource in things like families first ? because what i ’ m hearing on the ground is that eligibility is changing for even those preventative services . huw david: there ’ s not enough of those services , and , obviously—you may have heard me saying this before—i think we need to invest more in those services , and i hope you invest more in the services , because , obviously , prevention is better than cure . and those pressures that sally talked about earlier are pressures that are not going away ; they ’ re only increasing by the day , actually , and i would want us to be able to offer those services now . because that example of a child that perhaps is in a home where there is domestic abuse—we ’ ll probably have another referral off them in a couple of months ’ time , and that could escalate . and what i ’ d rather do is provide support to that family and try and stop that family breaking down so that , in six months , we 're not going back and saying that we 've got to take this child into care because the domestic abuse has worsened and that child is at risk . but those services need additional investment . sally jenkins: i appreciate that time is of the essence , but , just really quickly in relation to that , it ’ s not just social services . so , for example , there are developments like encompass , which is a piece of work that is being rolled out across gwent and across other areas , which is where the police automatically notify the school overnight of an incident , not expecting the school to do anything per se , but to be aware , to be able to offer care for that child . alastair birch: can i add to that ? operation encompass i know in gwent has been operational , and we started it in pembrokeshire 18 months ago . we as a local authority—and it ’ ll be education that will contact the school around the domestic incident happening , and the school as part of that protocol will provide a level of universal service support for that child when they come in , before 9 o ’ clock , so that professionals are aware of the needs of the welfare of that child at that point . so , you know , schools play a key role in the universal service of this and we work very closely with our social care colleagues on that . lynne neagle am: okay . janet , your last question , please . janet finch-saunders am: the bill 's explanatory memorandum refers to an estimate of 274 offences annually where lawful chastisement was used as a defence or considered . it says there is also potential to create extra demand on out-of-hours social services teams due to the time that the offences were reported , and in order to support safeguarding measures . have you assessed how this bill will impact on emergency and out-of-hours local authority services ? sally jenkins: we have considered that , and again i think that 's something that we would very much want to look at as part of implementation . we have out-of-hours provision , we have emergency duty teams already across wales that operate 24/7 . there 's no doubt that they exist and they work very closely with our police colleagues . janet finch-saunders am: are they overstretched at the moment ? sally jenkins: i think in the same way as all of social services is . if we were offered additional resource , we are going to take that . but are they working in a way that protects children day in , day out , and vulnerable adults ? yes , they are , and they will continue to do so . lynne neagle am: thank you very much . we 've got some specific questions now on the impact on education from jayne bryant . jayne bryant am: thank you , chair . good morning . alastair , you 've already mentioned about awareness raising and training , which will be key with educational professionals . how confident are you that teachers and others working in those educational settings will be clear about how to support the implementation of this bill , if enacted ? alastair birch: training requirements for all professionals in education settings are clear . the universal tier 1 training is there , and all local authorities in wales will implement that . in that level of general safeguarding awareness and training , the infinite emphasis is on the duty to report . that will remain the same . the thresholds for social care , that 's their responsibility . that duty to report will always be there . it says in 'keeping learners safe ' , which is the bible in terms of education professionals , that there 's a responsibility on the professional to make that referral and for that universal service . so , the more specialist safeguarding leads within the schools , who have become highly skilled professionals in terms of understanding what might be significant harm—because that 's what we 're talking about—they understand the legalities when a referral needs to be made . there 's always the collation of safeguarding information , where there might be just general concerns about neglect and other areas , which combined would create a picture that there might be significant neglect or significant harm to the child , and then that referral would be made to the child care assessment team or the police . so , that awareness—it needs to be clear for educational professionals that that duty to report is always there . if they believe that that significant harm has happened then that report then goes to the child care assessment team . they will make the judgment on the threshold because they are the professionals . they have the multi-agency awareness of how that meets the threshold . but in terms of education , it 'll be that awareness , making sure that there 's clarity . if there 's anything that professionals need to be trained additionally on , it 'll need to go into 'keeping learners safe ' , which at the moment is being rewritten . so , there would have to be some new possible information there relating to this . but as long as there 's clarity , and once that implementation phase and the discussion has happened , as long as it 's clear for professionals that the duty is always there and they feel a significant harm , then that report will always be there and will always need to be made . it 's making sure—and i 'll echo what my colleague said , huw—that the services are key for families . schools are absolutely fundamental in that support for the families . they have those relationships with the families . i know there was discussion around professional trust . on a daily basis , professionals are working on that trust with parents , because they are the ones that can engage with those families . the family support officers that are working on the ground with highly complex families , with multiple leads and supporting the children—they are fundamental , and investment in that level of support would also help our colleagues as well . so , anything that 's preventative . that is already happening in schools and is effective , and is shown to be effective , and has an evidence base—we 'd always support that that would continue to be invested in . so , that 's really my answer . jayne bryant am: okay . and you were saying about how important trust is as well , but do you think that there 's a risk that those in education settings will have a key role in referring more parents to social services , which some have said could cause potential harm to relationships and cause mistrust ? alastair birch: i do n't think it 's a matter of mistrust—it 's a matter of , you know , if a professional believes , based on the evidence that they have , because they 're working with that child every day , that there is significant harm to that child , they are under a duty to report that to social care . so , part of the work is with families , and most of the referrals we make are with parental consent . that consent is a key element of this , and conversation with our social care colleagues is usually , 'you need to speak to the parents again and have a conversation with them . ' some of the nfas—the ones that do n't get referred at threshold—it will come back to school for , possibly , some support from the family or a team around the family or some other aspect . so , i do n't think— . the trust in the professionals—it 's actually more important that we are seen to be upholding our duties under the all-wales safeguarding procedures . that 's what engenders trust in a professional workforce . jayne bryant am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you very much . we 're going to move on now to some questions about the importance of awareness raising from siân gwenllian . sian gwenllian am: good morning . in looking at your written evidence , you say that we must make it very clear to parents , guardians and the public that this legislation is not trying to criminalise parents , and that is clearly very important for you . how do you think we should do that and who should be doing that work ? sally jenkins: i think that 's really broad . obviously , colleagues in education , colleagues in social care , colleagues in preventative services , but also welsh government and the national assembly , in terms of those drivers in relation to that awareness raising are really , really key . if you look at some of the other campaigns that have been run , notably in relation to violence against women , domestic abuse and sexual violence , and echoing some of those building campaigns that have been done to raise awareness—i think those would be really good models to begin to consider in terms of how this is taken forward with awareness . we also know that there are a number of routes that we can go through in terms of raising awareness . we have existing preventative services , we have all our universal services , we have the regional safeguarding boards and the national safeguarding boards . so , there are a number of avenues that we could then explore . in terms of not wishing to criminalise , i think if we look at the numbers , they are very , very small . and i think one of the things we need to hold on to in this is a sense of proportion about what is or is n't likely to happen once or if this bill ever gets to the point of royal assent—they are small numbers who currently use this defence . it is about that wider issue of awareness raising , and using all of those avenues will help us to do that in the broadest sense . sian gwenllian am: do you , therefore , believe that this needs to be on the face of the bill ? that is , you do n't say this in your evidence . i 'd like to know your opinion on that . scotland is going to be making it a duty for scottish ministers to raise awareness of the impact of the bill . so far , the welsh government says that we do n't need to do that in wales . would n't it make it clearer for you if it was a clear duty on the face of the bill , for example as it was with the human transplantation ( wales ) act 2013 ? there was a duty in that act for ministers to promote transplantation . surely , that awareness raising aspect would be clearer for everyone if it was on the face of the bill . do you have an opinion on that ? huw david: well , welsh government have given that commitment , and i know the welsh government honour every commitment that they make— [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: that 's why i 'm asking . huw david: i do n't know whether that is necessary—i 'm not a legislator . i think that there 's obviously an inherent interest in welsh government raising awareness , because we have to raise awareness effectively for this to be successful , otherwise we will have parents who feel that they 're being criminalised , and that 's the last thing we want . i think it 's worthy of consideration , but , as i say , i 'm not a legislator or a lawyer , so i do n't know what implications that will have long term . but to be fair to welsh government , i think that commitment is one that i 'm sure will be honoured , because welsh government will want to make a success of this bill if it does receive royal assent . sian gwenllian am: okay . but is it clear who would pay for all of that ? huw david: i 've suddenly changed my mind— [ laughter . ] i think it should be a duty on welsh government ministers—absolutely . i do n't need to check with lawyers or legislators . there we go . and that 's the wlga position ; i do n't need to ask the other 21 leaders on that either . [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: would n't it make it clearer if there was a clear duty on the face of the bill that awareness raising had to happen ? it would be clearer , then , for local authorities and people in the front-line services what needs to happen . sally jenkins: i 'm going to echo huw . [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: i thought you might . okay , fine . lynne neagle am: okay . we 're moving on now , then , to the contentious issue of resources and we 've got some questions from hefin . hefin david am: sally jenkins , you said that the purpose of the bill is to bring clarity and to remove what is a little-used defence . is n't this an expensive way of doing that ? sally jenkins: i do n't think so , no . i think that our children deserve the best legislation . hefin david am: but introducing this legislation diverts finances from other areas of children 's services—or does n't ? sally jenkins: well , i would say , no , i do n't think it will divert resources from children 's services . firstly , going back to the comment made , i think , proportionally , this is a very small number of cases . it 's a very small number of existing cases that go through in terms of prosecution , or consideration for prosecution . we know that it 's likely , from some of the work that we 've already done , that it 's not opening floodgates for a sudden sea of referrals to children 's services—that 's not the way this is going to be , because the numbers are not out there because of the changes that have already happened in welsh family life and welsh society . so , i think as part of the implementation phase , we need to have a really clear understanding of the trajectory of those costs and what 's likely to happen over the first six months , 12 months in terms of people 's awareness and understanding and what is referred and how that 's worked . but in terms of a huge number , no , i do n't anticipate it being that . hefin david am: but the costs would n't just be directed to the number of referrals and the number of cases raised , it 's the cost around that , with training of staff , awareness—all those extra additional costs that always come with legislation . is it too much ? is it— ? sally jenkins: no . and i agree with that—that there clearly are—but if you think , many of those things will be aligned with work we are already doing , but it brings a clarity to that work . so , our teachers , our social workers , our health workers , our police officers already get substantial training around child protection , around safeguarding , around adverse childhood experiences and around a trauma-informed approach to children . what this does is it layers a clarity on that . but rather than having a part of that training , which has to deal with this as an aspect—that is no longer there ; it is a clear message for all professions . hefin david am: i fully appreciate that , and in the briefing note you 've given us , you 've outlined the pressures on social services . so , do you think this is another way of getting money into social services ? sally jenkins: if this was a way of getting money into— . i can think of better ways , but i do n't think this is it . no , i mean , i absolutely do not think that . i think this is a clear commitment to the rights of children in wales ; this is not about levering additional resources into children 's services . oh that it was so simple . hefin david am: okay . and , do you think those costs are quantifiable ? sally jenkins: i think we are currently looking at work and are doing work across my own local authority and across two others to look at breaking down those costs , not just for local authority , but also for health , for police and for children and family court advisory and support service cymru . so , there is work currently taking place to try to quantify those costs . hefin david am: okay . i think there was a bit about local authorities that siân— lynne neagle am: okay . siân gwenllian has got a question on resources . sian gwenllian am: yes , just to carry on from that , in a way . the explanatory memorandum that accompanies the bill talks about the unknown costs for different agencies . you mentioned there that you 're doing work around trying to identify some of those costs , but would n't it be useful if the explanatory memorandum did explain more about any unknown or unidentified costs , partly in order to calm some of those fears around that ? giving a title 'unidentified costs'—is that good enough ? sally jenkins: i think , clearly , that is a challenge , and that is work that we are participating in and are committed to completing with welsh government , to look at what those costs are . sian gwenllian am: and then they can be added into this . huw david: i think this is where it would be helpful in the committee 's deliberations and where our concern would be , because the reality is we 're not going to know what the costs are until it 's actually implemented , because we have n't implemented this before . and , therefore , i think there needs to be a commitment that , whatever the costs are , those costs are met because it is legislation that is being led by the national assembly for wales . and whilst we do n't see it as levering in additional resources , we do n't think it should be at the expense of current service provision to vulnerable families in wales , and therefore it 's important that it is properly and fully resourced . sian gwenllian am: what i would argue on that is that you have to try and forecast . you say it 's difficult to forecast how much this is going to cost , but we have to try and forecast that , and part of the argument for trying to have projections is to show that , perhaps , it 's not going to cost that much , and that would add to the argument that , 'okay , this is going to be fine to do and it 's not going to put too much pressure on us ' . or we need to know that this is going to cost a lot to do it effectively , and therefore you have to make your argument , then , 'well , we ca n't afford that , the money has to come from somewhere else . ' we have to get the costs , surely . huw david: yes , and we will work very closely with welsh government to try and establish those costs as quickly as possible . there will be some costs that we will be able to identify . so , for example , a campaign , an awareness-raising campaign , the marketing , if you like , but some of the other costs will be more difficult to establish in terms of the resource implications for front-line workers . i expressed a view that we need to see some additional investment in some of those programmes that are not targeted directly at families that would be impacted by this but support all families across wales that have different needs , and some of that provision is universal . obviously , my view is the more we put into that , the better . so , there 's no limit to that , but i suspect welsh government will take a very different view to that . but i think that is something where we need to see a commitment to some additional resources . but i do n't put an upper limit on that , because i do n't think there 's an authority in wales , and i do n't think there 's a charity , a police service or a health board in wales that does n't think that we need to do more of that and could offer more of that if the resources were available . sian gwenllian am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've come to the end of our time , so can i thank you all for attending and for answering all of our questions ? it 's been a really useful and informative discussion . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you again , all of you , for coming . huw david: and thank you for your questions and engagement . we welcome the opportunity . alastair birch: thank you very much . sally jenkins: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: okay , item 3 is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the minister for housing and local government—additional information for our inquiry into school funding . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for health and social services on in-patient child and adolescent mental health services provision , and i would like to briefly return to that when we go into private . are members happy to note those ? thank you . item 4 , then : can i propose a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? thank you .

training requirements for all professionals in education settings were clear . the bible in terms of education professionals included 'keeping learners safe ' . therefore , the awareness needed to be clear for educational professionals that the duty to report was there . when they feel the significant harm happened , they should report this and it would go to the childcare assessment team . and schools were fundamental in the support for the families , since they had the relationships with the families .

how did alastair birch respond to whether there was a risk that those in education settings would have a key role in referring more parents to social services , which causes mistrust ? </s> lynne neagle am: okay . good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from suzy davies and jack sargeant and i 'm very pleased to welcome jayne bryant back , who is substituting for jack today . are there any declarations of interest from members , please ? no . okay , thank you . item 2 , then , this morning , is our sixth scrutiny session on the children ( abolition of defence of reasonable punishment ) ( wales ) bill . i 'm very pleased to welcome our witnesses this morning : sally jenkins , who is chair of all wales heads of children ’ s services and is here representing the association of directors of social services ; alastair birch , who is senior system leader for equalities and safeguarding at pembrokeshire county council , who is here representing the association of directors of education wales ; and councillor huw david , who is the welsh local government association spokesperson for health and social care and leader of bridgend county borough council . so , thank you all for attending this morning . we 're very pleased to have you here . we 've got a lot of ground to cover , so , if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions and i 'll start just by asking about your general support for the bill , which is outlined in the evidence . can you just explain why you think the current law is ineffective or unclear ? alastair birch: bore da—bore da , bawb . so , i 'm alastair birch . the statement , really , from adew is that the rights of the child should be educated and achieved , really , under the united nations convention on the rights of the child . the current legislation has been criticised , obviously , by the un concerning the defence of reasonable punishment still being within our current legislation . so , we will always—adew will always—advocate that the rights of the child be upheld , so that is really the fundamental aspect in terms of the statement from adew , and the position of adew is that the rights of the child are fundamental in this process . and there are certain articles— . i know that the rights of children and young persons ( wales ) measure 2011 made sure that article 3 and article 4 , article 12 and article 37 were a focus in terms of making sure that the best interests of the child were put first , that children expressing their views and opinions was a priority . and we know , for safeguarding purposes , that the express opinions of the child and the voice of the child are a fundamental aspect of any safe environment , whether it be a school or college . so , that is—the position is really following that legal position under the rights of children and young persons ( wales ) measure . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . nothing to add at this stage , no ? sally jenkins: i 'll just add , on behalf of adss and on behalf of children 's services and social services more widely , for us , this is not a change in our position , this is not new ; this is a position that we , on behalf of the leaders of social services across wales , have taken over many years , going back 20 , 25 years . i think what we would say is that we really welcome this bill and we welcome the proposed change for the clarity it would bring—the clarity that it would bring for children , for parents and for professionals . i think what we would recognise is that this is a very little-used piece of legislation , so it 's rare , it 's not as if this is something that is going to cast great change across the scene for children and families in wales , but what it will do is represent a change in the reality of how we care and nurture our children . i would echo absolutely what alastair has said in terms of the rights of the child , but equally , in terms of all of our policies in wales in terms of promoting well-being for children , this has to be key . so , for us , this is about a natural progression of change in how we care for our children in wales . for children 's services at the very sharp end of this world , for us , it brings a true clarity . this continues with an ambiguity in how we treat our children and how we care for our children , and the shift for us brings that very much needed clarity . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the committee has already heard different views about whether there 's clear evidence that physical punishment is harmful to children . what evidence does the work of social services provide about whether physical punishment is actually harmful ? sally jenkins: obviously , what you 'll all be aware of is that , as part of the consultation for this bill , the public policy institute did a further piece of research to look at the impact of physical punishment on children . a number of things that we know—we know from across the world that the evidence is that introducing legislation or changing legislation in this way improves children 's positions within their families . what we know is that children themselves , as alastair has already referred to , really find physical punishment demeaning and harmful , and for children it is an emotionally damaging experience . now , there may be disagreement about that , there will be different views on that , but that 's the voice of the child in this debate . the voice of the child is very clear that physical punishment is for them harmful . i think what we would also say is that , in the world that we work in , it 's part of a continuum , and , whilst this is an element of how children are cared for , what we see is a continuum where an acceptance of how we treat children in a particular way perpetuates throughout our work . by changing this , it helps that shift to that absolute recognition that our children must be cared for in a way that is physically safe in all dimensions for them . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've had evidence from the equal protection network that the reasonable punishment defence undermines child protection and fails to protect children because it permits an arbitrary level of violence , which invades children 's physical integrity , making it a potential pathway to more serious physical or sexual abuse , and you did refer to that just now . is there anything you want to add on that ? sally jenkins: i would echo that . i think there is something in this that is about our culture , about how we see our children . it is about how we see our smallest and most vulnerable people , and if it is acceptable it opens the door to those other , more extreme versions of violence , which then complicates the issue for us . this is about clarity , and , whilst there is an argument that this is a small episode for a child , it 's not a small episode for a child , it is a major episode for a child , and i think absolutely , as you said , the potential for it then to lead on , and over gradation and time to increase the risk for children , is clearly there . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the final question from me : your written evidence emphasises the need for greater clarity around the definition of what constitutes corporal punishment , but that contrasts with what we 've been told by the children 's commissioner and the equal protection network , who 've emphasised the importance of simplicity in the bill . how do you respond to that view , and is what you 're calling for essential to be on the face of the bill ? sally jenkins: it 's not essential for it to be on the face of the bill . what we would like to see is discussion within the implementation phase for that nuancing . absolutely agree in terms of simplicity—i think that is really important—and i 've already mentioned clarity . what we do n't want to do is further confuse the position . we know that the legislation in different countries has done that , and there are ways that you can do it , but what we would welcome is an opportunity during the implementation phase for discussion . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . huw david: and , as a principle , obviously we would welcome full involvement , and we know there 's the commitment from welsh government to full involvement in the implementation , because , as with every piece of legislation , implementation is the most important part , and we would want to ensure there is that commitment to a major awareness-raising campaign , and there is that from welsh government , because we need to take families , carers and parents with us on this . also we need to ensure that there is that support available to parents and carers that do sometimes struggle with parenting , and that needs to be a universal offer across wales . if we 're to progress with this , that has to be an option that is offered to every parent in wales . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . sally jenkins: local authorities have already been very heavily involved in terms of looking at this bill and exploring what the issues are and the discussions and looking at what the implications from a local authority perspective will be , as huw describes , both in terms of the awareness raising , early support and intervention and prevention services for families against the backdrop of the current issues that we have in local government , but also awareness raising—because absolutely it is key that families come with us on this journey . this is not an imposition . this is embracing a culture and a value system for our children . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . i 've got some questions now from dawn bowden on the implementation of the bill . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . so , you 've pre-empted me , huw . huw david: right . sorry . i 've got good eyesight ; i ca n't see— . [ laughter . ] dawn bowden am: you 've already said , obviously , that you 're looking towards working with welsh government in terms of its implementation . what 's been your role so far in terms of the implementation of the bill—local authorities generally , now ? have you had a role ? has welsh government been involving you in discussions around the introduction of the bill so far ? huw david: yes . so , obviously we were consulted—a key consultee—but also our officials have worked very closely with welsh government officials to make sure this is implemented successfully , if it is progressed . sally jenkins: our involvement with this , from a social services perspective , goes back over two years , directly in working towards this point , never mind the history in terms of work towards this area . but , very directly in relation to this bill , we were first involved at least two years ago , to recollect , and that was in a series of workshops with other agencies , for example children and family court advisory and support service cymru and the police , and looking in real depth at what the implications would be for us as agencies to look at what the likely trajectory would be in terms of our pathways for referral into our services and what that might mean for us . and then particularly , for example , with cafcass cymru in relation to private law , what the fallout might be , and then what , if anything—and that 's the discussion that we need to have—that could mean for children 's services in particular , given the pressures that we 're already under . so , we 've been in constant , i suppose , involvement in terms of the bill already , as part of the consultation , in terms of the focus groups and in terms of direct work with welsh government officials to take this forward . and we are absolutely committed to continuing with that work . dawn bowden am: okay . you touched there on the pressures that you 're already under , which we fully appreciate , but you also mentioned in answers to lynne neagle earlier on that you welcomed the bill in terms of its clarity . so , are you confident that the bill can be implemented without any major impact on your capacity to deal with it ? sally jenkins: we 've done— . a number of local authorities—my own included , newport city council , has done some work to look at what the likely impact would be and then actually to look at what some of that costing would need to be . further work is needed on that area , and that needs to be carried out during the implementation phase . i think what we 've done is we 've looked internationally at what the impact has been elsewhere when similar legislation has been introduced to try and gauge , but that 's difficult to do in terms of comparable nations and size and also different systems . and obviously our approach in terms of children and pedagogy is very different from some of the nations that have already done this . i would n't like to say one way or the other , because i think , in terms of that culture shift , it could be a double impact on us in terms of increased referrals because of increased awareness , but it could also be , i suppose , as huw alludes to , that , if we 're looking at ensuring greater awareness of preventative services and support services for parents , actually people coming to the fore and asking us for those services as well . so , at this stage , i think what we would want to say is that we continue to be fully involved in the implementation phase , to look at what the cost implications for that could be , and not just for the local authorities but also the police , cafcass cymru , for third sector organisations involved in preventative services . i do n't think any of that should undermine the position in terms of children and their rights within our society . so , a difficult answer , in the sense that— dawn bowden am: no , i understand . what you 're saying is that this is a piece of legislation that , in your view , is a good piece of legislation . it 's setting out to , hopefully , achieve what the purpose of it is and you will deliver what you need to . can i ask you whether , then , you 've also given thought to the impact on—we 've talked about social services , but the impact on other services , like housing , education and so on ? you 're obviously coming at it from slightly different angles in other sections . alastair birch: we are part of the universal service for children , and we very much work in co-operation with the wlga and our social care colleagues , and we 've been part of that consultation . in terms of education , the main changes , or adaptations , would be around training and awareness . and , in terms of the bill , there needs to be the clarity—ambiguity would be bad—in terms of making sure that safeguarding leads within all schools have the right training and support . so , really , that 's the key element there , and then obviously the preventative services for the parents that schools can signpost , and sometimes possibly even host , in terms of being community schools . these positive parenting approaches that— . i have colleagues who have worked in that area for many years and see the benefits in how those positive parenting approaches make a difference to families . dawn bowden am: so , from your point of view , it 's awareness raising , is it ? alastair birch: it 's awareness raising ; it 's making sure that professionals are fully briefed on necessary changes , that there 's very little ambiguity , that we are aware that— . we still have that duty to report whenever there is any safeguarding concern . that 'll still be part of the all-wales child protection procedures . that wo n't change , and that duty is always going to be there for all our professionals . but that awareness raising and training will be the key , and then , obviously , working in co-operation with our colleagues . dawn bowden am: okay , i understand that . have you been given an indication of how long you 've got between royal assent and implementation , and whether you 've thought through any of the key milestones that need to be implemented ? sally jenkins: there 's a group proposed that would be a strategic leadership group in the steering group that we 're part of , which is now laying out what would happen after royal assent if that is given . so , we will work towards that . dawn bowden am: okay . my final question , chair , is about some of the responses we 've had to this committee that say that the state should not get involved in family life—i 'm sure you 've heard those views—unless it 's in the most serious circumstances . to what extent do you think that this bill undermines the existing local authority responsibilities , or do n't you ? huw david: the state 's paramount role is to protect children from harm . that is our legal responsibility , it 's our moral responsibility , and we will discharge that . and there is obviously a view—it 's a view that is enshrined in the un convention on the rights of the child—that physical punishment , physical harm to a child is harm to a child , and we should be preventing that and act to prevent that . that would be the position of the welsh local government association , and we also respect the mandate that members of the national assembly for wales have too . and we believe that children can be raised by parents without recourse to physical punishment , effectively , and we 'd support parents in that . we do not believe that in the 50 nations across the world where such legislation exists that the state is interfering in family life unnecessarily . we believe this action reflects a cultural change , a sea change that 's taken place in wales over the last 30 to 40 years , where the vast majority of parents now say that they do not use it themselves , they do not support it , and we believe this is actually a reflection of what has happened in welsh society . we support assembly members in the view that the natural progression of that is that children 's rights are protected across wales . dawn bowden am: so , i 've got largely positive feedback from you in terms of the bill and its intentions , and so on . do you foresee any unintended consequences for this bill ? huw david: if we implement it carefully , if we implement it with the right resources , then i hope not . i think not . but as with every piece of legislation , it is about the implementation , it is about the cultural change as well , and that 's why i can not overstress the importance of making sure that resources are made available , because our social services departments—children 's social services in particular—are overstretched . they are at breaking point—make no bones about it—and they are dealing with children who are facing serious harm and neglect . we are having record numbers of contacts from police , from teachers , from doctors and , of course , from children themselves who are experiencing that harm and neglect . and obviously , we want to focus our energy and our attention on those children . equally , though , we do n't want to lose sight of those families and children that are experiencing significant problems , but who we want to support through our early intervention and prevention programmes , and that is why it is important that there is investment in those programmes , so that children do not end up in that terrible position where we have to , for their safety , take them from their birth families to protect them . and the reality is , in wales , that we are doing that to more children than we 've done for a long time , and the numbers are growing across wales . and that is only because of the most appalling neglect and abuse , because there is no way that any judge would permit us to act to make a child safe if it was not for that fact , and the facts are there . so , i do n't want that focus to be lost , but , of course , we welcome and understand the need to progress this piece of legislation . dawn bowden am: that rise that you talk about here , is that due to more interventions , greater awareness , more incidents ? i 'm trying to link this to the bill in terms of whether the bill is actually going to give you more work to do in those areas . sally jenkins: on the reasons for the rise in the numbers of looked-after children in wales , which are higher than those in england , and also the numbers of contacts that we have across the local authorities , the work of the care crisis review , which was completed last year ; the work of isabelle trowler , who 's the chief social worker in england ; countless research and reports that have taken place in the last 18 months ; and currently the public law working group , under the auspices of the president of the family court , would all indicate that it 's multifactorial . so , what you have is a range of reasons that have led to the increasing numbers of children becoming looked after across england and wales . what you ca n't do is identify a single reason . there have been headlines that have said , 'is it increased austerity ? ' that is clearly a part of this . is it in wales an increased awareness of adverse childhood experiences and the emphasis of the impact on children of , for example , domestic abuse ? is it because of our understanding of what happens to children in those households ? all of that research would say it 's all of those things . and then , when you also add in changes in our practice with our colleagues in the judiciary , changes in our police service , but also changes in our preventative services , you 've got that whole range of elements . and there is going on across the local authorities and welsh government a huge amount of work to try to address and understand that , and then to ameliorate that . children who need to be in care for safety need to be in care , but what we have to do is get to a point where fewer children come into care and we 're able to protect them , firstly , and secondly where those children who are in care are cared for in a way that delivers the best possible outcomes for them . so , there is no simple answer unfortunately . i think , in terms of this bill and unintended consequences , i agree absolutely with everything that huw has said . my job is around children at that far end , but what this bill does is it brings clarity . it brings a clarity even for those children at that very far end . it takes away even that point of discussion that this could possibly be okay , and i think that 's important to hang on to . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . sorry . alastair birch: one unintended consequences is that i think that there will be an increased focus on the uncrc . and , in terms of children having a discussion around this point , children need to be part of that discussion . it 's something that affects them . and a key aspect of education is the voice of the child . it has become significantly— . it 's changed completely in the last 10 years , and it is one of the key things in terms of us driving improvements . dawn bowden am: would that be something that you would be looking to do in schools ? alastair birch: anything that improves the voice of the child in any educational context is good and it 's very powerful for the children . and it improves their educational experiences , encouraging the opportunities for them to discuss the issues , the adverse childhood experiences that they encounter , which are significant , and it 's our educational professionals that are facing this day-in , day-out . they 've become a very highly trained workforce , they 're ace aware , they 're trauma aware , and anything that focuses , even increases , their professionalism and understanding around a particular point , and also— . so it 's a positive unintended consequence , shall we say , that it could reinvigorate some of the voice of the child discussion within various contexts . dawn bowden am: okay . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: we 've got some specific questions now on implementation for social services , from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . if this bill becomes law , would you encourage members of the public to contact social services departments if they do see a child being smacked ? sally jenkins: we already encourage members of the public to contact social services or the police , depending on the circumstances . interestingly , i 'm picking— janet finch-saunders am: what , if a child is being smacked now ? sally jenkins: yes . if a child is being smacked now , we would ask that people contact . we have a duty to report , as professionals . but if you were walking out , and you saw something happening to a child , in the same way as if you saw something to an adult . janet finch-saunders am: right . sally jenkins: so , i think that the challenge is about—we 've all probably , sadly , witnessed incidents in the doctor 's reception , or in a supermarket , and we 've failed to do something about it . and i think we then walk away and feel pretty guilty about that , realistically , when you see something happening to a child in a particular circumstance . i think we ca n't ignore the fact that a child is being assaulted in those circumstances . janet finch-saunders am: okay . thank you . a campaign opposing this bill , be reasonable wales , have said that 'if the law is changed , the consequences for parents will be considerable . ' it also says , 'anyone accused or convicted of assaulting a child—under the new definition— ' so , i suppose you could argue , a minor tap— 'will be subject to long-term social services involvement in their family and social stigma . ' to what extent is this accurate , and , also , will thresholds for social services intervention change if the bill is enacted ? sally jenkins: there are a number of parts to that . firstly , in terms of long-term social services intervention in a family 's life , i think , for people to be fully aware of the very few numbers of families where we have long-term intervention currently , even where there is what would be perceived as very significant abuse . what we do is we go in for short periods in families ' lives , to support them to work with their strengths , to work with them and their family members . it 's not about us going into families , whatever some of the public perception may be . our aim is to get in and get out . so , in terms of long-term intervention , what we want is for families to find their own solutions . we want families to be able to work with each other , and together , and local community support , and preventative services , to be able to address issues . this is not about punitive approaches from social services . so , that 's the first element . in terms of thresholds for children 's services , we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us . there may be a small number of referrals that come through . what we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle . we recognise that 's likely to happen . because we also know that this is actually quite a rare occurrence currently ; this is not a defence that 's being used with great frequency , this is not something that is happening . and if we look at the data , we know that the incidents of children , and the number of parents who now recognise this as an acceptable form of punishment , has steadily declined over the last 15 to 20 years . so it 's diminishing as it is . janet finch-saunders am: so , on that one then , is there a need for legislation that will—obviously there 'll be resources for the welsh government and there 'll be resources out of hours and things like that—is there a need for legislation if , as you say , natural behaviour and the culture is changing ? let 's be honest , as you 've rightly pointed out , in social services—i know in my own authority—in your own authority , you 're saying that even now you 're working with the police , on systematic failings within the system . sally jenkins: two things . firstly , we want legislation that reflects our society—we do n't want the two to be out of kilter . that would be my first natural response : surely our legislation should be reflective of what our world is . it should n't be that we 've got these rather confusing elements running in parallel , and that continues to perpetuate a lack of clarity and the ambiguity that we currently see . i think the other element is that , again , this is about potentially an accelerating of that awareness and that culture in our society , about how we care for our children . we 've got there naturally ; we 've got there by the change that 's happened in wales over the last 15 to 20 years . what this does is to continue with that change and continue with that awareness and understanding of how we positively , from a strength-based approach , should care for our children , bearing in mind what 's required of us in terms of the uncrc . janet finch-saunders am: okay . are there any comments from anyone else ? huw david: simply to say that i think that , in terms of that clarity for the very vulnerable children out there who are currently being assaulted—seriously assaulted and abused by their parents , which goes on on a daily basis—that is already covered by existing legislation . but at the moment , they do n't know , because they could be being told—and they probably are being told—by their parents that 's it 's okay , that they can smack their child and that that 's acceptable . they do n't know the difference . a young child is not going to know that difference and there is confusion about what is— . and if you asked most parents , and in fact lots of professionals , they would not be able to tell you , and probably most of you would n't be able to tell me exactly where is the threshold— janet finch-saunders am: yes , where 's that line . huw david: well , at the moment , we do n't know where that line is . that vulnerable child , at home , being abused by their parents , does not know where that line is . and they should know where that line is because then they can pick up the phone to childline or they can talk to a professional and ask them where that line is . so , that would be a step forward . i do recognise , though , that what we do n't want to do—and the last thing any of us want to do—is criminalise parents who are bringing up their children . that is why we 're saying there needs to be an emphasis on the support programmes that are available to parents . and to be clear , there is no way that we want long-term involvement in any child 's life , but particularly not in the lives of children who have been smacked by their parents . that is not going to be the result of this legislation , trust me , because we do n't want to be involved in—we have n't got the resources to be involved in children 's lives . the social worker or the police officer—if they become involved , then there would be a proportionate response to that , and there 'll also be a test about whether or not that is progressed . so , if there is an allegation—if this legislation is passed—then that will be looked into and a consideration will be made about whether any action will be taken , and as with any allegation of the law being broken , there would be a proportionate response , as there is now . lynne neagle am: and the next question does relate to the practical response to that . janet . janet finch-saunders am: yes . can you outline the practical ways in which social services ' interaction with parents will change as a result of this proposed law and do you envisage that all referrals to the police will be automatically referred to social services for an assessment ? who 's going to make those decisions ? sally jenkins: that will be part of the implementation phase about that decision making . interestingly , the number of referrals that we currently get from the police that we take absolutely no action on is extraordinary . so , we get a very , very large number of— . it will be happening now ; sitting in the civic centre in newport city council will be a whole host of social workers taking in the public protection notifications from overnight . it 's 10 o'clock , so they 're assessing them now , as we speak . and an awful lot of those will have no further action from the local authority . janet finch-saunders am: but will they be investigated ? sally jenkins: no . there will be no action . there are countless referrals made by agencies to local authorities that we take no action on . janet finch-saunders am: so , if there 's an increase as a result of greater awareness— sally jenkins: what happens is there is a paper assessment of them . there 's a look at what 's happened , who 's involved , what the police have reported , and there 's work being done with the police to improve that . because one of the things that we want to get to is actually where we 're not using huge amounts of time to look at that , but what comes to us is what we act on . so , there is work going on with a number of police authorities to look at how you improve that process . but i suppose , to pick up , each incident will be looked at , each one will be assessed in a way that is proportionate , as huw says , to look at what 's happened and then investigated . lynne neagle am: sally , can you give us a couple of examples of what kind of things might have come in that you would then take no action on ? sally jenkins: we get countless referrals , for example , where there 's been a domestic abuse incident overnight where a child was n't present in the property and we then have n't taken action . it ’ ll be where the level of harm that ’ s perceived to happen to that child is below the threshold for intervention from children 's services . janet finch-saunders am: i ’ m pretty cynical about assessment , because , you know , i have people come in who are benefit claimants where , when they ’ ve been assessed , the whole process has been very flawed and i ’ ve had to fight and fight and fight on their behalf . so— sally jenkins: assessment processes within social— janet finch-saunders am: but if you 're struggling now with those assessments— sally jenkins: assessment processes within social services are as laid out in the social services and well-being ( wales ) act 2014. so , we have within what we carry out , i suppose , that kind of initial look , that look at the information , what else do we know about that family— janet finch-saunders am: and are they qualified people that are doing this ? sally jenkins: yes , absolutely . huw david: and , in fact , in lots of places in wales now , it ’ s a multi-agency assessment . so , it ’ s a joint assessment carried out with police professionals and health professionals . janet finch-saunders am: so , what proportion currently would you not be taking any action on , if a report came in of some domestic abuse where a child had perhaps been smacked ? sally jenkins: if something came in to us where a child had been smacked and there was something clearly there , we would look at it . we would clearly look at it and we would take some sort of action . janet finch-saunders am: even now , before the legislation ? sally jenkins: yes . lynne neagle am: can you ask a final question ? and i 'm going to have to appeal for brief answers , because we 've got a lot of ground to cover . huw david: just very quickly , there may be no action from social services , but it doesn ’ t mean that we don ’ t offer support . so , the expectation is that support is offered in those circumstances from family support services , for example— sally jenkins: or prevention . huw david: —or prevention services . so , we would not say , if we were aware , for example , that there was domestic abuse at a home , ‘ there ’ s no role for children ’ s social services ’ , because there may be an assessment that that child may not be at immediate risk of harm , but we would obviously recognise that there are causes for concern there and we would offer that support . so , just to be clear about that . and that ’ s a process that happens in every social services department in the uk , and it ’ s happened for a very long time , and , in fact , it ’ s reflective of the legislation that you have laid down as assembly members . lynne neagle am: and are those services there , huw ? because i ’ m very acutely aware of the pressure on local government . are the services there ? is there sufficient resource in things like families first ? because what i ’ m hearing on the ground is that eligibility is changing for even those preventative services . huw david: there ’ s not enough of those services , and , obviously—you may have heard me saying this before—i think we need to invest more in those services , and i hope you invest more in the services , because , obviously , prevention is better than cure . and those pressures that sally talked about earlier are pressures that are not going away ; they ’ re only increasing by the day , actually , and i would want us to be able to offer those services now . because that example of a child that perhaps is in a home where there is domestic abuse—we ’ ll probably have another referral off them in a couple of months ’ time , and that could escalate . and what i ’ d rather do is provide support to that family and try and stop that family breaking down so that , in six months , we 're not going back and saying that we 've got to take this child into care because the domestic abuse has worsened and that child is at risk . but those services need additional investment . sally jenkins: i appreciate that time is of the essence , but , just really quickly in relation to that , it ’ s not just social services . so , for example , there are developments like encompass , which is a piece of work that is being rolled out across gwent and across other areas , which is where the police automatically notify the school overnight of an incident , not expecting the school to do anything per se , but to be aware , to be able to offer care for that child . alastair birch: can i add to that ? operation encompass i know in gwent has been operational , and we started it in pembrokeshire 18 months ago . we as a local authority—and it ’ ll be education that will contact the school around the domestic incident happening , and the school as part of that protocol will provide a level of universal service support for that child when they come in , before 9 o ’ clock , so that professionals are aware of the needs of the welfare of that child at that point . so , you know , schools play a key role in the universal service of this and we work very closely with our social care colleagues on that . lynne neagle am: okay . janet , your last question , please . janet finch-saunders am: the bill 's explanatory memorandum refers to an estimate of 274 offences annually where lawful chastisement was used as a defence or considered . it says there is also potential to create extra demand on out-of-hours social services teams due to the time that the offences were reported , and in order to support safeguarding measures . have you assessed how this bill will impact on emergency and out-of-hours local authority services ? sally jenkins: we have considered that , and again i think that 's something that we would very much want to look at as part of implementation . we have out-of-hours provision , we have emergency duty teams already across wales that operate 24/7 . there 's no doubt that they exist and they work very closely with our police colleagues . janet finch-saunders am: are they overstretched at the moment ? sally jenkins: i think in the same way as all of social services is . if we were offered additional resource , we are going to take that . but are they working in a way that protects children day in , day out , and vulnerable adults ? yes , they are , and they will continue to do so . lynne neagle am: thank you very much . we 've got some specific questions now on the impact on education from jayne bryant . jayne bryant am: thank you , chair . good morning . alastair , you 've already mentioned about awareness raising and training , which will be key with educational professionals . how confident are you that teachers and others working in those educational settings will be clear about how to support the implementation of this bill , if enacted ? alastair birch: training requirements for all professionals in education settings are clear . the universal tier 1 training is there , and all local authorities in wales will implement that . in that level of general safeguarding awareness and training , the infinite emphasis is on the duty to report . that will remain the same . the thresholds for social care , that 's their responsibility . that duty to report will always be there . it says in 'keeping learners safe ' , which is the bible in terms of education professionals , that there 's a responsibility on the professional to make that referral and for that universal service . so , the more specialist safeguarding leads within the schools , who have become highly skilled professionals in terms of understanding what might be significant harm—because that 's what we 're talking about—they understand the legalities when a referral needs to be made . there 's always the collation of safeguarding information , where there might be just general concerns about neglect and other areas , which combined would create a picture that there might be significant neglect or significant harm to the child , and then that referral would be made to the child care assessment team or the police . so , that awareness—it needs to be clear for educational professionals that that duty to report is always there . if they believe that that significant harm has happened then that report then goes to the child care assessment team . they will make the judgment on the threshold because they are the professionals . they have the multi-agency awareness of how that meets the threshold . but in terms of education , it 'll be that awareness , making sure that there 's clarity . if there 's anything that professionals need to be trained additionally on , it 'll need to go into 'keeping learners safe ' , which at the moment is being rewritten . so , there would have to be some new possible information there relating to this . but as long as there 's clarity , and once that implementation phase and the discussion has happened , as long as it 's clear for professionals that the duty is always there and they feel a significant harm , then that report will always be there and will always need to be made . it 's making sure—and i 'll echo what my colleague said , huw—that the services are key for families . schools are absolutely fundamental in that support for the families . they have those relationships with the families . i know there was discussion around professional trust . on a daily basis , professionals are working on that trust with parents , because they are the ones that can engage with those families . the family support officers that are working on the ground with highly complex families , with multiple leads and supporting the children—they are fundamental , and investment in that level of support would also help our colleagues as well . so , anything that 's preventative . that is already happening in schools and is effective , and is shown to be effective , and has an evidence base—we 'd always support that that would continue to be invested in . so , that 's really my answer . jayne bryant am: okay . and you were saying about how important trust is as well , but do you think that there 's a risk that those in education settings will have a key role in referring more parents to social services , which some have said could cause potential harm to relationships and cause mistrust ? alastair birch: i do n't think it 's a matter of mistrust—it 's a matter of , you know , if a professional believes , based on the evidence that they have , because they 're working with that child every day , that there is significant harm to that child , they are under a duty to report that to social care . so , part of the work is with families , and most of the referrals we make are with parental consent . that consent is a key element of this , and conversation with our social care colleagues is usually , 'you need to speak to the parents again and have a conversation with them . ' some of the nfas—the ones that do n't get referred at threshold—it will come back to school for , possibly , some support from the family or a team around the family or some other aspect . so , i do n't think— . the trust in the professionals—it 's actually more important that we are seen to be upholding our duties under the all-wales safeguarding procedures . that 's what engenders trust in a professional workforce . jayne bryant am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you very much . we 're going to move on now to some questions about the importance of awareness raising from siân gwenllian . sian gwenllian am: good morning . in looking at your written evidence , you say that we must make it very clear to parents , guardians and the public that this legislation is not trying to criminalise parents , and that is clearly very important for you . how do you think we should do that and who should be doing that work ? sally jenkins: i think that 's really broad . obviously , colleagues in education , colleagues in social care , colleagues in preventative services , but also welsh government and the national assembly , in terms of those drivers in relation to that awareness raising are really , really key . if you look at some of the other campaigns that have been run , notably in relation to violence against women , domestic abuse and sexual violence , and echoing some of those building campaigns that have been done to raise awareness—i think those would be really good models to begin to consider in terms of how this is taken forward with awareness . we also know that there are a number of routes that we can go through in terms of raising awareness . we have existing preventative services , we have all our universal services , we have the regional safeguarding boards and the national safeguarding boards . so , there are a number of avenues that we could then explore . in terms of not wishing to criminalise , i think if we look at the numbers , they are very , very small . and i think one of the things we need to hold on to in this is a sense of proportion about what is or is n't likely to happen once or if this bill ever gets to the point of royal assent—they are small numbers who currently use this defence . it is about that wider issue of awareness raising , and using all of those avenues will help us to do that in the broadest sense . sian gwenllian am: do you , therefore , believe that this needs to be on the face of the bill ? that is , you do n't say this in your evidence . i 'd like to know your opinion on that . scotland is going to be making it a duty for scottish ministers to raise awareness of the impact of the bill . so far , the welsh government says that we do n't need to do that in wales . would n't it make it clearer for you if it was a clear duty on the face of the bill , for example as it was with the human transplantation ( wales ) act 2013 ? there was a duty in that act for ministers to promote transplantation . surely , that awareness raising aspect would be clearer for everyone if it was on the face of the bill . do you have an opinion on that ? huw david: well , welsh government have given that commitment , and i know the welsh government honour every commitment that they make— [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: that 's why i 'm asking . huw david: i do n't know whether that is necessary—i 'm not a legislator . i think that there 's obviously an inherent interest in welsh government raising awareness , because we have to raise awareness effectively for this to be successful , otherwise we will have parents who feel that they 're being criminalised , and that 's the last thing we want . i think it 's worthy of consideration , but , as i say , i 'm not a legislator or a lawyer , so i do n't know what implications that will have long term . but to be fair to welsh government , i think that commitment is one that i 'm sure will be honoured , because welsh government will want to make a success of this bill if it does receive royal assent . sian gwenllian am: okay . but is it clear who would pay for all of that ? huw david: i 've suddenly changed my mind— [ laughter . ] i think it should be a duty on welsh government ministers—absolutely . i do n't need to check with lawyers or legislators . there we go . and that 's the wlga position ; i do n't need to ask the other 21 leaders on that either . [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: would n't it make it clearer if there was a clear duty on the face of the bill that awareness raising had to happen ? it would be clearer , then , for local authorities and people in the front-line services what needs to happen . sally jenkins: i 'm going to echo huw . [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: i thought you might . okay , fine . lynne neagle am: okay . we 're moving on now , then , to the contentious issue of resources and we 've got some questions from hefin . hefin david am: sally jenkins , you said that the purpose of the bill is to bring clarity and to remove what is a little-used defence . is n't this an expensive way of doing that ? sally jenkins: i do n't think so , no . i think that our children deserve the best legislation . hefin david am: but introducing this legislation diverts finances from other areas of children 's services—or does n't ? sally jenkins: well , i would say , no , i do n't think it will divert resources from children 's services . firstly , going back to the comment made , i think , proportionally , this is a very small number of cases . it 's a very small number of existing cases that go through in terms of prosecution , or consideration for prosecution . we know that it 's likely , from some of the work that we 've already done , that it 's not opening floodgates for a sudden sea of referrals to children 's services—that 's not the way this is going to be , because the numbers are not out there because of the changes that have already happened in welsh family life and welsh society . so , i think as part of the implementation phase , we need to have a really clear understanding of the trajectory of those costs and what 's likely to happen over the first six months , 12 months in terms of people 's awareness and understanding and what is referred and how that 's worked . but in terms of a huge number , no , i do n't anticipate it being that . hefin david am: but the costs would n't just be directed to the number of referrals and the number of cases raised , it 's the cost around that , with training of staff , awareness—all those extra additional costs that always come with legislation . is it too much ? is it— ? sally jenkins: no . and i agree with that—that there clearly are—but if you think , many of those things will be aligned with work we are already doing , but it brings a clarity to that work . so , our teachers , our social workers , our health workers , our police officers already get substantial training around child protection , around safeguarding , around adverse childhood experiences and around a trauma-informed approach to children . what this does is it layers a clarity on that . but rather than having a part of that training , which has to deal with this as an aspect—that is no longer there ; it is a clear message for all professions . hefin david am: i fully appreciate that , and in the briefing note you 've given us , you 've outlined the pressures on social services . so , do you think this is another way of getting money into social services ? sally jenkins: if this was a way of getting money into— . i can think of better ways , but i do n't think this is it . no , i mean , i absolutely do not think that . i think this is a clear commitment to the rights of children in wales ; this is not about levering additional resources into children 's services . oh that it was so simple . hefin david am: okay . and , do you think those costs are quantifiable ? sally jenkins: i think we are currently looking at work and are doing work across my own local authority and across two others to look at breaking down those costs , not just for local authority , but also for health , for police and for children and family court advisory and support service cymru . so , there is work currently taking place to try to quantify those costs . hefin david am: okay . i think there was a bit about local authorities that siân— lynne neagle am: okay . siân gwenllian has got a question on resources . sian gwenllian am: yes , just to carry on from that , in a way . the explanatory memorandum that accompanies the bill talks about the unknown costs for different agencies . you mentioned there that you 're doing work around trying to identify some of those costs , but would n't it be useful if the explanatory memorandum did explain more about any unknown or unidentified costs , partly in order to calm some of those fears around that ? giving a title 'unidentified costs'—is that good enough ? sally jenkins: i think , clearly , that is a challenge , and that is work that we are participating in and are committed to completing with welsh government , to look at what those costs are . sian gwenllian am: and then they can be added into this . huw david: i think this is where it would be helpful in the committee 's deliberations and where our concern would be , because the reality is we 're not going to know what the costs are until it 's actually implemented , because we have n't implemented this before . and , therefore , i think there needs to be a commitment that , whatever the costs are , those costs are met because it is legislation that is being led by the national assembly for wales . and whilst we do n't see it as levering in additional resources , we do n't think it should be at the expense of current service provision to vulnerable families in wales , and therefore it 's important that it is properly and fully resourced . sian gwenllian am: what i would argue on that is that you have to try and forecast . you say it 's difficult to forecast how much this is going to cost , but we have to try and forecast that , and part of the argument for trying to have projections is to show that , perhaps , it 's not going to cost that much , and that would add to the argument that , 'okay , this is going to be fine to do and it 's not going to put too much pressure on us ' . or we need to know that this is going to cost a lot to do it effectively , and therefore you have to make your argument , then , 'well , we ca n't afford that , the money has to come from somewhere else . ' we have to get the costs , surely . huw david: yes , and we will work very closely with welsh government to try and establish those costs as quickly as possible . there will be some costs that we will be able to identify . so , for example , a campaign , an awareness-raising campaign , the marketing , if you like , but some of the other costs will be more difficult to establish in terms of the resource implications for front-line workers . i expressed a view that we need to see some additional investment in some of those programmes that are not targeted directly at families that would be impacted by this but support all families across wales that have different needs , and some of that provision is universal . obviously , my view is the more we put into that , the better . so , there 's no limit to that , but i suspect welsh government will take a very different view to that . but i think that is something where we need to see a commitment to some additional resources . but i do n't put an upper limit on that , because i do n't think there 's an authority in wales , and i do n't think there 's a charity , a police service or a health board in wales that does n't think that we need to do more of that and could offer more of that if the resources were available . sian gwenllian am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've come to the end of our time , so can i thank you all for attending and for answering all of our questions ? it 's been a really useful and informative discussion . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you again , all of you , for coming . huw david: and thank you for your questions and engagement . we welcome the opportunity . alastair birch: thank you very much . sally jenkins: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: okay , item 3 is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the minister for housing and local government—additional information for our inquiry into school funding . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for health and social services on in-patient child and adolescent mental health services provision , and i would like to briefly return to that when we go into private . are members happy to note those ? thank you . item 4 , then : can i propose a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? thank you .

alastair birch did not think it was a matter of mistrust . alastair birch said that part of the work with families , and most of the referrals they made were with parental consent . this consent was a key element . for those that were not referred at threshold , it would come back to school for some support .

summarize their discussions on awareness raising . </s> lynne neagle am: okay . good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from suzy davies and jack sargeant and i 'm very pleased to welcome jayne bryant back , who is substituting for jack today . are there any declarations of interest from members , please ? no . okay , thank you . item 2 , then , this morning , is our sixth scrutiny session on the children ( abolition of defence of reasonable punishment ) ( wales ) bill . i 'm very pleased to welcome our witnesses this morning : sally jenkins , who is chair of all wales heads of children ’ s services and is here representing the association of directors of social services ; alastair birch , who is senior system leader for equalities and safeguarding at pembrokeshire county council , who is here representing the association of directors of education wales ; and councillor huw david , who is the welsh local government association spokesperson for health and social care and leader of bridgend county borough council . so , thank you all for attending this morning . we 're very pleased to have you here . we 've got a lot of ground to cover , so , if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions and i 'll start just by asking about your general support for the bill , which is outlined in the evidence . can you just explain why you think the current law is ineffective or unclear ? alastair birch: bore da—bore da , bawb . so , i 'm alastair birch . the statement , really , from adew is that the rights of the child should be educated and achieved , really , under the united nations convention on the rights of the child . the current legislation has been criticised , obviously , by the un concerning the defence of reasonable punishment still being within our current legislation . so , we will always—adew will always—advocate that the rights of the child be upheld , so that is really the fundamental aspect in terms of the statement from adew , and the position of adew is that the rights of the child are fundamental in this process . and there are certain articles— . i know that the rights of children and young persons ( wales ) measure 2011 made sure that article 3 and article 4 , article 12 and article 37 were a focus in terms of making sure that the best interests of the child were put first , that children expressing their views and opinions was a priority . and we know , for safeguarding purposes , that the express opinions of the child and the voice of the child are a fundamental aspect of any safe environment , whether it be a school or college . so , that is—the position is really following that legal position under the rights of children and young persons ( wales ) measure . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . nothing to add at this stage , no ? sally jenkins: i 'll just add , on behalf of adss and on behalf of children 's services and social services more widely , for us , this is not a change in our position , this is not new ; this is a position that we , on behalf of the leaders of social services across wales , have taken over many years , going back 20 , 25 years . i think what we would say is that we really welcome this bill and we welcome the proposed change for the clarity it would bring—the clarity that it would bring for children , for parents and for professionals . i think what we would recognise is that this is a very little-used piece of legislation , so it 's rare , it 's not as if this is something that is going to cast great change across the scene for children and families in wales , but what it will do is represent a change in the reality of how we care and nurture our children . i would echo absolutely what alastair has said in terms of the rights of the child , but equally , in terms of all of our policies in wales in terms of promoting well-being for children , this has to be key . so , for us , this is about a natural progression of change in how we care for our children in wales . for children 's services at the very sharp end of this world , for us , it brings a true clarity . this continues with an ambiguity in how we treat our children and how we care for our children , and the shift for us brings that very much needed clarity . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the committee has already heard different views about whether there 's clear evidence that physical punishment is harmful to children . what evidence does the work of social services provide about whether physical punishment is actually harmful ? sally jenkins: obviously , what you 'll all be aware of is that , as part of the consultation for this bill , the public policy institute did a further piece of research to look at the impact of physical punishment on children . a number of things that we know—we know from across the world that the evidence is that introducing legislation or changing legislation in this way improves children 's positions within their families . what we know is that children themselves , as alastair has already referred to , really find physical punishment demeaning and harmful , and for children it is an emotionally damaging experience . now , there may be disagreement about that , there will be different views on that , but that 's the voice of the child in this debate . the voice of the child is very clear that physical punishment is for them harmful . i think what we would also say is that , in the world that we work in , it 's part of a continuum , and , whilst this is an element of how children are cared for , what we see is a continuum where an acceptance of how we treat children in a particular way perpetuates throughout our work . by changing this , it helps that shift to that absolute recognition that our children must be cared for in a way that is physically safe in all dimensions for them . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've had evidence from the equal protection network that the reasonable punishment defence undermines child protection and fails to protect children because it permits an arbitrary level of violence , which invades children 's physical integrity , making it a potential pathway to more serious physical or sexual abuse , and you did refer to that just now . is there anything you want to add on that ? sally jenkins: i would echo that . i think there is something in this that is about our culture , about how we see our children . it is about how we see our smallest and most vulnerable people , and if it is acceptable it opens the door to those other , more extreme versions of violence , which then complicates the issue for us . this is about clarity , and , whilst there is an argument that this is a small episode for a child , it 's not a small episode for a child , it is a major episode for a child , and i think absolutely , as you said , the potential for it then to lead on , and over gradation and time to increase the risk for children , is clearly there . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the final question from me : your written evidence emphasises the need for greater clarity around the definition of what constitutes corporal punishment , but that contrasts with what we 've been told by the children 's commissioner and the equal protection network , who 've emphasised the importance of simplicity in the bill . how do you respond to that view , and is what you 're calling for essential to be on the face of the bill ? sally jenkins: it 's not essential for it to be on the face of the bill . what we would like to see is discussion within the implementation phase for that nuancing . absolutely agree in terms of simplicity—i think that is really important—and i 've already mentioned clarity . what we do n't want to do is further confuse the position . we know that the legislation in different countries has done that , and there are ways that you can do it , but what we would welcome is an opportunity during the implementation phase for discussion . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . huw david: and , as a principle , obviously we would welcome full involvement , and we know there 's the commitment from welsh government to full involvement in the implementation , because , as with every piece of legislation , implementation is the most important part , and we would want to ensure there is that commitment to a major awareness-raising campaign , and there is that from welsh government , because we need to take families , carers and parents with us on this . also we need to ensure that there is that support available to parents and carers that do sometimes struggle with parenting , and that needs to be a universal offer across wales . if we 're to progress with this , that has to be an option that is offered to every parent in wales . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . sally jenkins: local authorities have already been very heavily involved in terms of looking at this bill and exploring what the issues are and the discussions and looking at what the implications from a local authority perspective will be , as huw describes , both in terms of the awareness raising , early support and intervention and prevention services for families against the backdrop of the current issues that we have in local government , but also awareness raising—because absolutely it is key that families come with us on this journey . this is not an imposition . this is embracing a culture and a value system for our children . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . i 've got some questions now from dawn bowden on the implementation of the bill . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . so , you 've pre-empted me , huw . huw david: right . sorry . i 've got good eyesight ; i ca n't see— . [ laughter . ] dawn bowden am: you 've already said , obviously , that you 're looking towards working with welsh government in terms of its implementation . what 's been your role so far in terms of the implementation of the bill—local authorities generally , now ? have you had a role ? has welsh government been involving you in discussions around the introduction of the bill so far ? huw david: yes . so , obviously we were consulted—a key consultee—but also our officials have worked very closely with welsh government officials to make sure this is implemented successfully , if it is progressed . sally jenkins: our involvement with this , from a social services perspective , goes back over two years , directly in working towards this point , never mind the history in terms of work towards this area . but , very directly in relation to this bill , we were first involved at least two years ago , to recollect , and that was in a series of workshops with other agencies , for example children and family court advisory and support service cymru and the police , and looking in real depth at what the implications would be for us as agencies to look at what the likely trajectory would be in terms of our pathways for referral into our services and what that might mean for us . and then particularly , for example , with cafcass cymru in relation to private law , what the fallout might be , and then what , if anything—and that 's the discussion that we need to have—that could mean for children 's services in particular , given the pressures that we 're already under . so , we 've been in constant , i suppose , involvement in terms of the bill already , as part of the consultation , in terms of the focus groups and in terms of direct work with welsh government officials to take this forward . and we are absolutely committed to continuing with that work . dawn bowden am: okay . you touched there on the pressures that you 're already under , which we fully appreciate , but you also mentioned in answers to lynne neagle earlier on that you welcomed the bill in terms of its clarity . so , are you confident that the bill can be implemented without any major impact on your capacity to deal with it ? sally jenkins: we 've done— . a number of local authorities—my own included , newport city council , has done some work to look at what the likely impact would be and then actually to look at what some of that costing would need to be . further work is needed on that area , and that needs to be carried out during the implementation phase . i think what we 've done is we 've looked internationally at what the impact has been elsewhere when similar legislation has been introduced to try and gauge , but that 's difficult to do in terms of comparable nations and size and also different systems . and obviously our approach in terms of children and pedagogy is very different from some of the nations that have already done this . i would n't like to say one way or the other , because i think , in terms of that culture shift , it could be a double impact on us in terms of increased referrals because of increased awareness , but it could also be , i suppose , as huw alludes to , that , if we 're looking at ensuring greater awareness of preventative services and support services for parents , actually people coming to the fore and asking us for those services as well . so , at this stage , i think what we would want to say is that we continue to be fully involved in the implementation phase , to look at what the cost implications for that could be , and not just for the local authorities but also the police , cafcass cymru , for third sector organisations involved in preventative services . i do n't think any of that should undermine the position in terms of children and their rights within our society . so , a difficult answer , in the sense that— dawn bowden am: no , i understand . what you 're saying is that this is a piece of legislation that , in your view , is a good piece of legislation . it 's setting out to , hopefully , achieve what the purpose of it is and you will deliver what you need to . can i ask you whether , then , you 've also given thought to the impact on—we 've talked about social services , but the impact on other services , like housing , education and so on ? you 're obviously coming at it from slightly different angles in other sections . alastair birch: we are part of the universal service for children , and we very much work in co-operation with the wlga and our social care colleagues , and we 've been part of that consultation . in terms of education , the main changes , or adaptations , would be around training and awareness . and , in terms of the bill , there needs to be the clarity—ambiguity would be bad—in terms of making sure that safeguarding leads within all schools have the right training and support . so , really , that 's the key element there , and then obviously the preventative services for the parents that schools can signpost , and sometimes possibly even host , in terms of being community schools . these positive parenting approaches that— . i have colleagues who have worked in that area for many years and see the benefits in how those positive parenting approaches make a difference to families . dawn bowden am: so , from your point of view , it 's awareness raising , is it ? alastair birch: it 's awareness raising ; it 's making sure that professionals are fully briefed on necessary changes , that there 's very little ambiguity , that we are aware that— . we still have that duty to report whenever there is any safeguarding concern . that 'll still be part of the all-wales child protection procedures . that wo n't change , and that duty is always going to be there for all our professionals . but that awareness raising and training will be the key , and then , obviously , working in co-operation with our colleagues . dawn bowden am: okay , i understand that . have you been given an indication of how long you 've got between royal assent and implementation , and whether you 've thought through any of the key milestones that need to be implemented ? sally jenkins: there 's a group proposed that would be a strategic leadership group in the steering group that we 're part of , which is now laying out what would happen after royal assent if that is given . so , we will work towards that . dawn bowden am: okay . my final question , chair , is about some of the responses we 've had to this committee that say that the state should not get involved in family life—i 'm sure you 've heard those views—unless it 's in the most serious circumstances . to what extent do you think that this bill undermines the existing local authority responsibilities , or do n't you ? huw david: the state 's paramount role is to protect children from harm . that is our legal responsibility , it 's our moral responsibility , and we will discharge that . and there is obviously a view—it 's a view that is enshrined in the un convention on the rights of the child—that physical punishment , physical harm to a child is harm to a child , and we should be preventing that and act to prevent that . that would be the position of the welsh local government association , and we also respect the mandate that members of the national assembly for wales have too . and we believe that children can be raised by parents without recourse to physical punishment , effectively , and we 'd support parents in that . we do not believe that in the 50 nations across the world where such legislation exists that the state is interfering in family life unnecessarily . we believe this action reflects a cultural change , a sea change that 's taken place in wales over the last 30 to 40 years , where the vast majority of parents now say that they do not use it themselves , they do not support it , and we believe this is actually a reflection of what has happened in welsh society . we support assembly members in the view that the natural progression of that is that children 's rights are protected across wales . dawn bowden am: so , i 've got largely positive feedback from you in terms of the bill and its intentions , and so on . do you foresee any unintended consequences for this bill ? huw david: if we implement it carefully , if we implement it with the right resources , then i hope not . i think not . but as with every piece of legislation , it is about the implementation , it is about the cultural change as well , and that 's why i can not overstress the importance of making sure that resources are made available , because our social services departments—children 's social services in particular—are overstretched . they are at breaking point—make no bones about it—and they are dealing with children who are facing serious harm and neglect . we are having record numbers of contacts from police , from teachers , from doctors and , of course , from children themselves who are experiencing that harm and neglect . and obviously , we want to focus our energy and our attention on those children . equally , though , we do n't want to lose sight of those families and children that are experiencing significant problems , but who we want to support through our early intervention and prevention programmes , and that is why it is important that there is investment in those programmes , so that children do not end up in that terrible position where we have to , for their safety , take them from their birth families to protect them . and the reality is , in wales , that we are doing that to more children than we 've done for a long time , and the numbers are growing across wales . and that is only because of the most appalling neglect and abuse , because there is no way that any judge would permit us to act to make a child safe if it was not for that fact , and the facts are there . so , i do n't want that focus to be lost , but , of course , we welcome and understand the need to progress this piece of legislation . dawn bowden am: that rise that you talk about here , is that due to more interventions , greater awareness , more incidents ? i 'm trying to link this to the bill in terms of whether the bill is actually going to give you more work to do in those areas . sally jenkins: on the reasons for the rise in the numbers of looked-after children in wales , which are higher than those in england , and also the numbers of contacts that we have across the local authorities , the work of the care crisis review , which was completed last year ; the work of isabelle trowler , who 's the chief social worker in england ; countless research and reports that have taken place in the last 18 months ; and currently the public law working group , under the auspices of the president of the family court , would all indicate that it 's multifactorial . so , what you have is a range of reasons that have led to the increasing numbers of children becoming looked after across england and wales . what you ca n't do is identify a single reason . there have been headlines that have said , 'is it increased austerity ? ' that is clearly a part of this . is it in wales an increased awareness of adverse childhood experiences and the emphasis of the impact on children of , for example , domestic abuse ? is it because of our understanding of what happens to children in those households ? all of that research would say it 's all of those things . and then , when you also add in changes in our practice with our colleagues in the judiciary , changes in our police service , but also changes in our preventative services , you 've got that whole range of elements . and there is going on across the local authorities and welsh government a huge amount of work to try to address and understand that , and then to ameliorate that . children who need to be in care for safety need to be in care , but what we have to do is get to a point where fewer children come into care and we 're able to protect them , firstly , and secondly where those children who are in care are cared for in a way that delivers the best possible outcomes for them . so , there is no simple answer unfortunately . i think , in terms of this bill and unintended consequences , i agree absolutely with everything that huw has said . my job is around children at that far end , but what this bill does is it brings clarity . it brings a clarity even for those children at that very far end . it takes away even that point of discussion that this could possibly be okay , and i think that 's important to hang on to . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . sorry . alastair birch: one unintended consequences is that i think that there will be an increased focus on the uncrc . and , in terms of children having a discussion around this point , children need to be part of that discussion . it 's something that affects them . and a key aspect of education is the voice of the child . it has become significantly— . it 's changed completely in the last 10 years , and it is one of the key things in terms of us driving improvements . dawn bowden am: would that be something that you would be looking to do in schools ? alastair birch: anything that improves the voice of the child in any educational context is good and it 's very powerful for the children . and it improves their educational experiences , encouraging the opportunities for them to discuss the issues , the adverse childhood experiences that they encounter , which are significant , and it 's our educational professionals that are facing this day-in , day-out . they 've become a very highly trained workforce , they 're ace aware , they 're trauma aware , and anything that focuses , even increases , their professionalism and understanding around a particular point , and also— . so it 's a positive unintended consequence , shall we say , that it could reinvigorate some of the voice of the child discussion within various contexts . dawn bowden am: okay . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: we 've got some specific questions now on implementation for social services , from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . if this bill becomes law , would you encourage members of the public to contact social services departments if they do see a child being smacked ? sally jenkins: we already encourage members of the public to contact social services or the police , depending on the circumstances . interestingly , i 'm picking— janet finch-saunders am: what , if a child is being smacked now ? sally jenkins: yes . if a child is being smacked now , we would ask that people contact . we have a duty to report , as professionals . but if you were walking out , and you saw something happening to a child , in the same way as if you saw something to an adult . janet finch-saunders am: right . sally jenkins: so , i think that the challenge is about—we 've all probably , sadly , witnessed incidents in the doctor 's reception , or in a supermarket , and we 've failed to do something about it . and i think we then walk away and feel pretty guilty about that , realistically , when you see something happening to a child in a particular circumstance . i think we ca n't ignore the fact that a child is being assaulted in those circumstances . janet finch-saunders am: okay . thank you . a campaign opposing this bill , be reasonable wales , have said that 'if the law is changed , the consequences for parents will be considerable . ' it also says , 'anyone accused or convicted of assaulting a child—under the new definition— ' so , i suppose you could argue , a minor tap— 'will be subject to long-term social services involvement in their family and social stigma . ' to what extent is this accurate , and , also , will thresholds for social services intervention change if the bill is enacted ? sally jenkins: there are a number of parts to that . firstly , in terms of long-term social services intervention in a family 's life , i think , for people to be fully aware of the very few numbers of families where we have long-term intervention currently , even where there is what would be perceived as very significant abuse . what we do is we go in for short periods in families ' lives , to support them to work with their strengths , to work with them and their family members . it 's not about us going into families , whatever some of the public perception may be . our aim is to get in and get out . so , in terms of long-term intervention , what we want is for families to find their own solutions . we want families to be able to work with each other , and together , and local community support , and preventative services , to be able to address issues . this is not about punitive approaches from social services . so , that 's the first element . in terms of thresholds for children 's services , we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us . there may be a small number of referrals that come through . what we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle . we recognise that 's likely to happen . because we also know that this is actually quite a rare occurrence currently ; this is not a defence that 's being used with great frequency , this is not something that is happening . and if we look at the data , we know that the incidents of children , and the number of parents who now recognise this as an acceptable form of punishment , has steadily declined over the last 15 to 20 years . so it 's diminishing as it is . janet finch-saunders am: so , on that one then , is there a need for legislation that will—obviously there 'll be resources for the welsh government and there 'll be resources out of hours and things like that—is there a need for legislation if , as you say , natural behaviour and the culture is changing ? let 's be honest , as you 've rightly pointed out , in social services—i know in my own authority—in your own authority , you 're saying that even now you 're working with the police , on systematic failings within the system . sally jenkins: two things . firstly , we want legislation that reflects our society—we do n't want the two to be out of kilter . that would be my first natural response : surely our legislation should be reflective of what our world is . it should n't be that we 've got these rather confusing elements running in parallel , and that continues to perpetuate a lack of clarity and the ambiguity that we currently see . i think the other element is that , again , this is about potentially an accelerating of that awareness and that culture in our society , about how we care for our children . we 've got there naturally ; we 've got there by the change that 's happened in wales over the last 15 to 20 years . what this does is to continue with that change and continue with that awareness and understanding of how we positively , from a strength-based approach , should care for our children , bearing in mind what 's required of us in terms of the uncrc . janet finch-saunders am: okay . are there any comments from anyone else ? huw david: simply to say that i think that , in terms of that clarity for the very vulnerable children out there who are currently being assaulted—seriously assaulted and abused by their parents , which goes on on a daily basis—that is already covered by existing legislation . but at the moment , they do n't know , because they could be being told—and they probably are being told—by their parents that 's it 's okay , that they can smack their child and that that 's acceptable . they do n't know the difference . a young child is not going to know that difference and there is confusion about what is— . and if you asked most parents , and in fact lots of professionals , they would not be able to tell you , and probably most of you would n't be able to tell me exactly where is the threshold— janet finch-saunders am: yes , where 's that line . huw david: well , at the moment , we do n't know where that line is . that vulnerable child , at home , being abused by their parents , does not know where that line is . and they should know where that line is because then they can pick up the phone to childline or they can talk to a professional and ask them where that line is . so , that would be a step forward . i do recognise , though , that what we do n't want to do—and the last thing any of us want to do—is criminalise parents who are bringing up their children . that is why we 're saying there needs to be an emphasis on the support programmes that are available to parents . and to be clear , there is no way that we want long-term involvement in any child 's life , but particularly not in the lives of children who have been smacked by their parents . that is not going to be the result of this legislation , trust me , because we do n't want to be involved in—we have n't got the resources to be involved in children 's lives . the social worker or the police officer—if they become involved , then there would be a proportionate response to that , and there 'll also be a test about whether or not that is progressed . so , if there is an allegation—if this legislation is passed—then that will be looked into and a consideration will be made about whether any action will be taken , and as with any allegation of the law being broken , there would be a proportionate response , as there is now . lynne neagle am: and the next question does relate to the practical response to that . janet . janet finch-saunders am: yes . can you outline the practical ways in which social services ' interaction with parents will change as a result of this proposed law and do you envisage that all referrals to the police will be automatically referred to social services for an assessment ? who 's going to make those decisions ? sally jenkins: that will be part of the implementation phase about that decision making . interestingly , the number of referrals that we currently get from the police that we take absolutely no action on is extraordinary . so , we get a very , very large number of— . it will be happening now ; sitting in the civic centre in newport city council will be a whole host of social workers taking in the public protection notifications from overnight . it 's 10 o'clock , so they 're assessing them now , as we speak . and an awful lot of those will have no further action from the local authority . janet finch-saunders am: but will they be investigated ? sally jenkins: no . there will be no action . there are countless referrals made by agencies to local authorities that we take no action on . janet finch-saunders am: so , if there 's an increase as a result of greater awareness— sally jenkins: what happens is there is a paper assessment of them . there 's a look at what 's happened , who 's involved , what the police have reported , and there 's work being done with the police to improve that . because one of the things that we want to get to is actually where we 're not using huge amounts of time to look at that , but what comes to us is what we act on . so , there is work going on with a number of police authorities to look at how you improve that process . but i suppose , to pick up , each incident will be looked at , each one will be assessed in a way that is proportionate , as huw says , to look at what 's happened and then investigated . lynne neagle am: sally , can you give us a couple of examples of what kind of things might have come in that you would then take no action on ? sally jenkins: we get countless referrals , for example , where there 's been a domestic abuse incident overnight where a child was n't present in the property and we then have n't taken action . it ’ ll be where the level of harm that ’ s perceived to happen to that child is below the threshold for intervention from children 's services . janet finch-saunders am: i ’ m pretty cynical about assessment , because , you know , i have people come in who are benefit claimants where , when they ’ ve been assessed , the whole process has been very flawed and i ’ ve had to fight and fight and fight on their behalf . so— sally jenkins: assessment processes within social— janet finch-saunders am: but if you 're struggling now with those assessments— sally jenkins: assessment processes within social services are as laid out in the social services and well-being ( wales ) act 2014. so , we have within what we carry out , i suppose , that kind of initial look , that look at the information , what else do we know about that family— janet finch-saunders am: and are they qualified people that are doing this ? sally jenkins: yes , absolutely . huw david: and , in fact , in lots of places in wales now , it ’ s a multi-agency assessment . so , it ’ s a joint assessment carried out with police professionals and health professionals . janet finch-saunders am: so , what proportion currently would you not be taking any action on , if a report came in of some domestic abuse where a child had perhaps been smacked ? sally jenkins: if something came in to us where a child had been smacked and there was something clearly there , we would look at it . we would clearly look at it and we would take some sort of action . janet finch-saunders am: even now , before the legislation ? sally jenkins: yes . lynne neagle am: can you ask a final question ? and i 'm going to have to appeal for brief answers , because we 've got a lot of ground to cover . huw david: just very quickly , there may be no action from social services , but it doesn ’ t mean that we don ’ t offer support . so , the expectation is that support is offered in those circumstances from family support services , for example— sally jenkins: or prevention . huw david: —or prevention services . so , we would not say , if we were aware , for example , that there was domestic abuse at a home , ‘ there ’ s no role for children ’ s social services ’ , because there may be an assessment that that child may not be at immediate risk of harm , but we would obviously recognise that there are causes for concern there and we would offer that support . so , just to be clear about that . and that ’ s a process that happens in every social services department in the uk , and it ’ s happened for a very long time , and , in fact , it ’ s reflective of the legislation that you have laid down as assembly members . lynne neagle am: and are those services there , huw ? because i ’ m very acutely aware of the pressure on local government . are the services there ? is there sufficient resource in things like families first ? because what i ’ m hearing on the ground is that eligibility is changing for even those preventative services . huw david: there ’ s not enough of those services , and , obviously—you may have heard me saying this before—i think we need to invest more in those services , and i hope you invest more in the services , because , obviously , prevention is better than cure . and those pressures that sally talked about earlier are pressures that are not going away ; they ’ re only increasing by the day , actually , and i would want us to be able to offer those services now . because that example of a child that perhaps is in a home where there is domestic abuse—we ’ ll probably have another referral off them in a couple of months ’ time , and that could escalate . and what i ’ d rather do is provide support to that family and try and stop that family breaking down so that , in six months , we 're not going back and saying that we 've got to take this child into care because the domestic abuse has worsened and that child is at risk . but those services need additional investment . sally jenkins: i appreciate that time is of the essence , but , just really quickly in relation to that , it ’ s not just social services . so , for example , there are developments like encompass , which is a piece of work that is being rolled out across gwent and across other areas , which is where the police automatically notify the school overnight of an incident , not expecting the school to do anything per se , but to be aware , to be able to offer care for that child . alastair birch: can i add to that ? operation encompass i know in gwent has been operational , and we started it in pembrokeshire 18 months ago . we as a local authority—and it ’ ll be education that will contact the school around the domestic incident happening , and the school as part of that protocol will provide a level of universal service support for that child when they come in , before 9 o ’ clock , so that professionals are aware of the needs of the welfare of that child at that point . so , you know , schools play a key role in the universal service of this and we work very closely with our social care colleagues on that . lynne neagle am: okay . janet , your last question , please . janet finch-saunders am: the bill 's explanatory memorandum refers to an estimate of 274 offences annually where lawful chastisement was used as a defence or considered . it says there is also potential to create extra demand on out-of-hours social services teams due to the time that the offences were reported , and in order to support safeguarding measures . have you assessed how this bill will impact on emergency and out-of-hours local authority services ? sally jenkins: we have considered that , and again i think that 's something that we would very much want to look at as part of implementation . we have out-of-hours provision , we have emergency duty teams already across wales that operate 24/7 . there 's no doubt that they exist and they work very closely with our police colleagues . janet finch-saunders am: are they overstretched at the moment ? sally jenkins: i think in the same way as all of social services is . if we were offered additional resource , we are going to take that . but are they working in a way that protects children day in , day out , and vulnerable adults ? yes , they are , and they will continue to do so . lynne neagle am: thank you very much . we 've got some specific questions now on the impact on education from jayne bryant . jayne bryant am: thank you , chair . good morning . alastair , you 've already mentioned about awareness raising and training , which will be key with educational professionals . how confident are you that teachers and others working in those educational settings will be clear about how to support the implementation of this bill , if enacted ? alastair birch: training requirements for all professionals in education settings are clear . the universal tier 1 training is there , and all local authorities in wales will implement that . in that level of general safeguarding awareness and training , the infinite emphasis is on the duty to report . that will remain the same . the thresholds for social care , that 's their responsibility . that duty to report will always be there . it says in 'keeping learners safe ' , which is the bible in terms of education professionals , that there 's a responsibility on the professional to make that referral and for that universal service . so , the more specialist safeguarding leads within the schools , who have become highly skilled professionals in terms of understanding what might be significant harm—because that 's what we 're talking about—they understand the legalities when a referral needs to be made . there 's always the collation of safeguarding information , where there might be just general concerns about neglect and other areas , which combined would create a picture that there might be significant neglect or significant harm to the child , and then that referral would be made to the child care assessment team or the police . so , that awareness—it needs to be clear for educational professionals that that duty to report is always there . if they believe that that significant harm has happened then that report then goes to the child care assessment team . they will make the judgment on the threshold because they are the professionals . they have the multi-agency awareness of how that meets the threshold . but in terms of education , it 'll be that awareness , making sure that there 's clarity . if there 's anything that professionals need to be trained additionally on , it 'll need to go into 'keeping learners safe ' , which at the moment is being rewritten . so , there would have to be some new possible information there relating to this . but as long as there 's clarity , and once that implementation phase and the discussion has happened , as long as it 's clear for professionals that the duty is always there and they feel a significant harm , then that report will always be there and will always need to be made . it 's making sure—and i 'll echo what my colleague said , huw—that the services are key for families . schools are absolutely fundamental in that support for the families . they have those relationships with the families . i know there was discussion around professional trust . on a daily basis , professionals are working on that trust with parents , because they are the ones that can engage with those families . the family support officers that are working on the ground with highly complex families , with multiple leads and supporting the children—they are fundamental , and investment in that level of support would also help our colleagues as well . so , anything that 's preventative . that is already happening in schools and is effective , and is shown to be effective , and has an evidence base—we 'd always support that that would continue to be invested in . so , that 's really my answer . jayne bryant am: okay . and you were saying about how important trust is as well , but do you think that there 's a risk that those in education settings will have a key role in referring more parents to social services , which some have said could cause potential harm to relationships and cause mistrust ? alastair birch: i do n't think it 's a matter of mistrust—it 's a matter of , you know , if a professional believes , based on the evidence that they have , because they 're working with that child every day , that there is significant harm to that child , they are under a duty to report that to social care . so , part of the work is with families , and most of the referrals we make are with parental consent . that consent is a key element of this , and conversation with our social care colleagues is usually , 'you need to speak to the parents again and have a conversation with them . ' some of the nfas—the ones that do n't get referred at threshold—it will come back to school for , possibly , some support from the family or a team around the family or some other aspect . so , i do n't think— . the trust in the professionals—it 's actually more important that we are seen to be upholding our duties under the all-wales safeguarding procedures . that 's what engenders trust in a professional workforce . jayne bryant am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you very much . we 're going to move on now to some questions about the importance of awareness raising from siân gwenllian . sian gwenllian am: good morning . in looking at your written evidence , you say that we must make it very clear to parents , guardians and the public that this legislation is not trying to criminalise parents , and that is clearly very important for you . how do you think we should do that and who should be doing that work ? sally jenkins: i think that 's really broad . obviously , colleagues in education , colleagues in social care , colleagues in preventative services , but also welsh government and the national assembly , in terms of those drivers in relation to that awareness raising are really , really key . if you look at some of the other campaigns that have been run , notably in relation to violence against women , domestic abuse and sexual violence , and echoing some of those building campaigns that have been done to raise awareness—i think those would be really good models to begin to consider in terms of how this is taken forward with awareness . we also know that there are a number of routes that we can go through in terms of raising awareness . we have existing preventative services , we have all our universal services , we have the regional safeguarding boards and the national safeguarding boards . so , there are a number of avenues that we could then explore . in terms of not wishing to criminalise , i think if we look at the numbers , they are very , very small . and i think one of the things we need to hold on to in this is a sense of proportion about what is or is n't likely to happen once or if this bill ever gets to the point of royal assent—they are small numbers who currently use this defence . it is about that wider issue of awareness raising , and using all of those avenues will help us to do that in the broadest sense . sian gwenllian am: do you , therefore , believe that this needs to be on the face of the bill ? that is , you do n't say this in your evidence . i 'd like to know your opinion on that . scotland is going to be making it a duty for scottish ministers to raise awareness of the impact of the bill . so far , the welsh government says that we do n't need to do that in wales . would n't it make it clearer for you if it was a clear duty on the face of the bill , for example as it was with the human transplantation ( wales ) act 2013 ? there was a duty in that act for ministers to promote transplantation . surely , that awareness raising aspect would be clearer for everyone if it was on the face of the bill . do you have an opinion on that ? huw david: well , welsh government have given that commitment , and i know the welsh government honour every commitment that they make— [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: that 's why i 'm asking . huw david: i do n't know whether that is necessary—i 'm not a legislator . i think that there 's obviously an inherent interest in welsh government raising awareness , because we have to raise awareness effectively for this to be successful , otherwise we will have parents who feel that they 're being criminalised , and that 's the last thing we want . i think it 's worthy of consideration , but , as i say , i 'm not a legislator or a lawyer , so i do n't know what implications that will have long term . but to be fair to welsh government , i think that commitment is one that i 'm sure will be honoured , because welsh government will want to make a success of this bill if it does receive royal assent . sian gwenllian am: okay . but is it clear who would pay for all of that ? huw david: i 've suddenly changed my mind— [ laughter . ] i think it should be a duty on welsh government ministers—absolutely . i do n't need to check with lawyers or legislators . there we go . and that 's the wlga position ; i do n't need to ask the other 21 leaders on that either . [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: would n't it make it clearer if there was a clear duty on the face of the bill that awareness raising had to happen ? it would be clearer , then , for local authorities and people in the front-line services what needs to happen . sally jenkins: i 'm going to echo huw . [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: i thought you might . okay , fine . lynne neagle am: okay . we 're moving on now , then , to the contentious issue of resources and we 've got some questions from hefin . hefin david am: sally jenkins , you said that the purpose of the bill is to bring clarity and to remove what is a little-used defence . is n't this an expensive way of doing that ? sally jenkins: i do n't think so , no . i think that our children deserve the best legislation . hefin david am: but introducing this legislation diverts finances from other areas of children 's services—or does n't ? sally jenkins: well , i would say , no , i do n't think it will divert resources from children 's services . firstly , going back to the comment made , i think , proportionally , this is a very small number of cases . it 's a very small number of existing cases that go through in terms of prosecution , or consideration for prosecution . we know that it 's likely , from some of the work that we 've already done , that it 's not opening floodgates for a sudden sea of referrals to children 's services—that 's not the way this is going to be , because the numbers are not out there because of the changes that have already happened in welsh family life and welsh society . so , i think as part of the implementation phase , we need to have a really clear understanding of the trajectory of those costs and what 's likely to happen over the first six months , 12 months in terms of people 's awareness and understanding and what is referred and how that 's worked . but in terms of a huge number , no , i do n't anticipate it being that . hefin david am: but the costs would n't just be directed to the number of referrals and the number of cases raised , it 's the cost around that , with training of staff , awareness—all those extra additional costs that always come with legislation . is it too much ? is it— ? sally jenkins: no . and i agree with that—that there clearly are—but if you think , many of those things will be aligned with work we are already doing , but it brings a clarity to that work . so , our teachers , our social workers , our health workers , our police officers already get substantial training around child protection , around safeguarding , around adverse childhood experiences and around a trauma-informed approach to children . what this does is it layers a clarity on that . but rather than having a part of that training , which has to deal with this as an aspect—that is no longer there ; it is a clear message for all professions . hefin david am: i fully appreciate that , and in the briefing note you 've given us , you 've outlined the pressures on social services . so , do you think this is another way of getting money into social services ? sally jenkins: if this was a way of getting money into— . i can think of better ways , but i do n't think this is it . no , i mean , i absolutely do not think that . i think this is a clear commitment to the rights of children in wales ; this is not about levering additional resources into children 's services . oh that it was so simple . hefin david am: okay . and , do you think those costs are quantifiable ? sally jenkins: i think we are currently looking at work and are doing work across my own local authority and across two others to look at breaking down those costs , not just for local authority , but also for health , for police and for children and family court advisory and support service cymru . so , there is work currently taking place to try to quantify those costs . hefin david am: okay . i think there was a bit about local authorities that siân— lynne neagle am: okay . siân gwenllian has got a question on resources . sian gwenllian am: yes , just to carry on from that , in a way . the explanatory memorandum that accompanies the bill talks about the unknown costs for different agencies . you mentioned there that you 're doing work around trying to identify some of those costs , but would n't it be useful if the explanatory memorandum did explain more about any unknown or unidentified costs , partly in order to calm some of those fears around that ? giving a title 'unidentified costs'—is that good enough ? sally jenkins: i think , clearly , that is a challenge , and that is work that we are participating in and are committed to completing with welsh government , to look at what those costs are . sian gwenllian am: and then they can be added into this . huw david: i think this is where it would be helpful in the committee 's deliberations and where our concern would be , because the reality is we 're not going to know what the costs are until it 's actually implemented , because we have n't implemented this before . and , therefore , i think there needs to be a commitment that , whatever the costs are , those costs are met because it is legislation that is being led by the national assembly for wales . and whilst we do n't see it as levering in additional resources , we do n't think it should be at the expense of current service provision to vulnerable families in wales , and therefore it 's important that it is properly and fully resourced . sian gwenllian am: what i would argue on that is that you have to try and forecast . you say it 's difficult to forecast how much this is going to cost , but we have to try and forecast that , and part of the argument for trying to have projections is to show that , perhaps , it 's not going to cost that much , and that would add to the argument that , 'okay , this is going to be fine to do and it 's not going to put too much pressure on us ' . or we need to know that this is going to cost a lot to do it effectively , and therefore you have to make your argument , then , 'well , we ca n't afford that , the money has to come from somewhere else . ' we have to get the costs , surely . huw david: yes , and we will work very closely with welsh government to try and establish those costs as quickly as possible . there will be some costs that we will be able to identify . so , for example , a campaign , an awareness-raising campaign , the marketing , if you like , but some of the other costs will be more difficult to establish in terms of the resource implications for front-line workers . i expressed a view that we need to see some additional investment in some of those programmes that are not targeted directly at families that would be impacted by this but support all families across wales that have different needs , and some of that provision is universal . obviously , my view is the more we put into that , the better . so , there 's no limit to that , but i suspect welsh government will take a very different view to that . but i think that is something where we need to see a commitment to some additional resources . but i do n't put an upper limit on that , because i do n't think there 's an authority in wales , and i do n't think there 's a charity , a police service or a health board in wales that does n't think that we need to do more of that and could offer more of that if the resources were available . sian gwenllian am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've come to the end of our time , so can i thank you all for attending and for answering all of our questions ? it 's been a really useful and informative discussion . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you again , all of you , for coming . huw david: and thank you for your questions and engagement . we welcome the opportunity . alastair birch: thank you very much . sally jenkins: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: okay , item 3 is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the minister for housing and local government—additional information for our inquiry into school funding . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for health and social services on in-patient child and adolescent mental health services provision , and i would like to briefly return to that when we go into private . are members happy to note those ? thank you . item 4 , then : can i propose a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? thank you .

the first question was about how they should make it clear that the legislation is not trying to criminalize parents , and who should be responsible for this . sally jenkins responded that those drivers in relation to that awareness raising should be the key . there were a lot of ways for this including preventative services , universal services and etc . then they had some discussions on whether the awareness raising should be on the face of the bill and who should pay for this . huw david was not sure whether being on the bill was necessary , but he said it was worth consideration . welsh government ministers should have a duty on this .

summarize the discussion on how to make it clear to parents that the legislation is not trying to criminalize parents . </s> lynne neagle am: okay . good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from suzy davies and jack sargeant and i 'm very pleased to welcome jayne bryant back , who is substituting for jack today . are there any declarations of interest from members , please ? no . okay , thank you . item 2 , then , this morning , is our sixth scrutiny session on the children ( abolition of defence of reasonable punishment ) ( wales ) bill . i 'm very pleased to welcome our witnesses this morning : sally jenkins , who is chair of all wales heads of children ’ s services and is here representing the association of directors of social services ; alastair birch , who is senior system leader for equalities and safeguarding at pembrokeshire county council , who is here representing the association of directors of education wales ; and councillor huw david , who is the welsh local government association spokesperson for health and social care and leader of bridgend county borough council . so , thank you all for attending this morning . we 're very pleased to have you here . we 've got a lot of ground to cover , so , if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions and i 'll start just by asking about your general support for the bill , which is outlined in the evidence . can you just explain why you think the current law is ineffective or unclear ? alastair birch: bore da—bore da , bawb . so , i 'm alastair birch . the statement , really , from adew is that the rights of the child should be educated and achieved , really , under the united nations convention on the rights of the child . the current legislation has been criticised , obviously , by the un concerning the defence of reasonable punishment still being within our current legislation . so , we will always—adew will always—advocate that the rights of the child be upheld , so that is really the fundamental aspect in terms of the statement from adew , and the position of adew is that the rights of the child are fundamental in this process . and there are certain articles— . i know that the rights of children and young persons ( wales ) measure 2011 made sure that article 3 and article 4 , article 12 and article 37 were a focus in terms of making sure that the best interests of the child were put first , that children expressing their views and opinions was a priority . and we know , for safeguarding purposes , that the express opinions of the child and the voice of the child are a fundamental aspect of any safe environment , whether it be a school or college . so , that is—the position is really following that legal position under the rights of children and young persons ( wales ) measure . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . nothing to add at this stage , no ? sally jenkins: i 'll just add , on behalf of adss and on behalf of children 's services and social services more widely , for us , this is not a change in our position , this is not new ; this is a position that we , on behalf of the leaders of social services across wales , have taken over many years , going back 20 , 25 years . i think what we would say is that we really welcome this bill and we welcome the proposed change for the clarity it would bring—the clarity that it would bring for children , for parents and for professionals . i think what we would recognise is that this is a very little-used piece of legislation , so it 's rare , it 's not as if this is something that is going to cast great change across the scene for children and families in wales , but what it will do is represent a change in the reality of how we care and nurture our children . i would echo absolutely what alastair has said in terms of the rights of the child , but equally , in terms of all of our policies in wales in terms of promoting well-being for children , this has to be key . so , for us , this is about a natural progression of change in how we care for our children in wales . for children 's services at the very sharp end of this world , for us , it brings a true clarity . this continues with an ambiguity in how we treat our children and how we care for our children , and the shift for us brings that very much needed clarity . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the committee has already heard different views about whether there 's clear evidence that physical punishment is harmful to children . what evidence does the work of social services provide about whether physical punishment is actually harmful ? sally jenkins: obviously , what you 'll all be aware of is that , as part of the consultation for this bill , the public policy institute did a further piece of research to look at the impact of physical punishment on children . a number of things that we know—we know from across the world that the evidence is that introducing legislation or changing legislation in this way improves children 's positions within their families . what we know is that children themselves , as alastair has already referred to , really find physical punishment demeaning and harmful , and for children it is an emotionally damaging experience . now , there may be disagreement about that , there will be different views on that , but that 's the voice of the child in this debate . the voice of the child is very clear that physical punishment is for them harmful . i think what we would also say is that , in the world that we work in , it 's part of a continuum , and , whilst this is an element of how children are cared for , what we see is a continuum where an acceptance of how we treat children in a particular way perpetuates throughout our work . by changing this , it helps that shift to that absolute recognition that our children must be cared for in a way that is physically safe in all dimensions for them . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've had evidence from the equal protection network that the reasonable punishment defence undermines child protection and fails to protect children because it permits an arbitrary level of violence , which invades children 's physical integrity , making it a potential pathway to more serious physical or sexual abuse , and you did refer to that just now . is there anything you want to add on that ? sally jenkins: i would echo that . i think there is something in this that is about our culture , about how we see our children . it is about how we see our smallest and most vulnerable people , and if it is acceptable it opens the door to those other , more extreme versions of violence , which then complicates the issue for us . this is about clarity , and , whilst there is an argument that this is a small episode for a child , it 's not a small episode for a child , it is a major episode for a child , and i think absolutely , as you said , the potential for it then to lead on , and over gradation and time to increase the risk for children , is clearly there . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the final question from me : your written evidence emphasises the need for greater clarity around the definition of what constitutes corporal punishment , but that contrasts with what we 've been told by the children 's commissioner and the equal protection network , who 've emphasised the importance of simplicity in the bill . how do you respond to that view , and is what you 're calling for essential to be on the face of the bill ? sally jenkins: it 's not essential for it to be on the face of the bill . what we would like to see is discussion within the implementation phase for that nuancing . absolutely agree in terms of simplicity—i think that is really important—and i 've already mentioned clarity . what we do n't want to do is further confuse the position . we know that the legislation in different countries has done that , and there are ways that you can do it , but what we would welcome is an opportunity during the implementation phase for discussion . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . huw david: and , as a principle , obviously we would welcome full involvement , and we know there 's the commitment from welsh government to full involvement in the implementation , because , as with every piece of legislation , implementation is the most important part , and we would want to ensure there is that commitment to a major awareness-raising campaign , and there is that from welsh government , because we need to take families , carers and parents with us on this . also we need to ensure that there is that support available to parents and carers that do sometimes struggle with parenting , and that needs to be a universal offer across wales . if we 're to progress with this , that has to be an option that is offered to every parent in wales . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . sally jenkins: local authorities have already been very heavily involved in terms of looking at this bill and exploring what the issues are and the discussions and looking at what the implications from a local authority perspective will be , as huw describes , both in terms of the awareness raising , early support and intervention and prevention services for families against the backdrop of the current issues that we have in local government , but also awareness raising—because absolutely it is key that families come with us on this journey . this is not an imposition . this is embracing a culture and a value system for our children . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . i 've got some questions now from dawn bowden on the implementation of the bill . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . so , you 've pre-empted me , huw . huw david: right . sorry . i 've got good eyesight ; i ca n't see— . [ laughter . ] dawn bowden am: you 've already said , obviously , that you 're looking towards working with welsh government in terms of its implementation . what 's been your role so far in terms of the implementation of the bill—local authorities generally , now ? have you had a role ? has welsh government been involving you in discussions around the introduction of the bill so far ? huw david: yes . so , obviously we were consulted—a key consultee—but also our officials have worked very closely with welsh government officials to make sure this is implemented successfully , if it is progressed . sally jenkins: our involvement with this , from a social services perspective , goes back over two years , directly in working towards this point , never mind the history in terms of work towards this area . but , very directly in relation to this bill , we were first involved at least two years ago , to recollect , and that was in a series of workshops with other agencies , for example children and family court advisory and support service cymru and the police , and looking in real depth at what the implications would be for us as agencies to look at what the likely trajectory would be in terms of our pathways for referral into our services and what that might mean for us . and then particularly , for example , with cafcass cymru in relation to private law , what the fallout might be , and then what , if anything—and that 's the discussion that we need to have—that could mean for children 's services in particular , given the pressures that we 're already under . so , we 've been in constant , i suppose , involvement in terms of the bill already , as part of the consultation , in terms of the focus groups and in terms of direct work with welsh government officials to take this forward . and we are absolutely committed to continuing with that work . dawn bowden am: okay . you touched there on the pressures that you 're already under , which we fully appreciate , but you also mentioned in answers to lynne neagle earlier on that you welcomed the bill in terms of its clarity . so , are you confident that the bill can be implemented without any major impact on your capacity to deal with it ? sally jenkins: we 've done— . a number of local authorities—my own included , newport city council , has done some work to look at what the likely impact would be and then actually to look at what some of that costing would need to be . further work is needed on that area , and that needs to be carried out during the implementation phase . i think what we 've done is we 've looked internationally at what the impact has been elsewhere when similar legislation has been introduced to try and gauge , but that 's difficult to do in terms of comparable nations and size and also different systems . and obviously our approach in terms of children and pedagogy is very different from some of the nations that have already done this . i would n't like to say one way or the other , because i think , in terms of that culture shift , it could be a double impact on us in terms of increased referrals because of increased awareness , but it could also be , i suppose , as huw alludes to , that , if we 're looking at ensuring greater awareness of preventative services and support services for parents , actually people coming to the fore and asking us for those services as well . so , at this stage , i think what we would want to say is that we continue to be fully involved in the implementation phase , to look at what the cost implications for that could be , and not just for the local authorities but also the police , cafcass cymru , for third sector organisations involved in preventative services . i do n't think any of that should undermine the position in terms of children and their rights within our society . so , a difficult answer , in the sense that— dawn bowden am: no , i understand . what you 're saying is that this is a piece of legislation that , in your view , is a good piece of legislation . it 's setting out to , hopefully , achieve what the purpose of it is and you will deliver what you need to . can i ask you whether , then , you 've also given thought to the impact on—we 've talked about social services , but the impact on other services , like housing , education and so on ? you 're obviously coming at it from slightly different angles in other sections . alastair birch: we are part of the universal service for children , and we very much work in co-operation with the wlga and our social care colleagues , and we 've been part of that consultation . in terms of education , the main changes , or adaptations , would be around training and awareness . and , in terms of the bill , there needs to be the clarity—ambiguity would be bad—in terms of making sure that safeguarding leads within all schools have the right training and support . so , really , that 's the key element there , and then obviously the preventative services for the parents that schools can signpost , and sometimes possibly even host , in terms of being community schools . these positive parenting approaches that— . i have colleagues who have worked in that area for many years and see the benefits in how those positive parenting approaches make a difference to families . dawn bowden am: so , from your point of view , it 's awareness raising , is it ? alastair birch: it 's awareness raising ; it 's making sure that professionals are fully briefed on necessary changes , that there 's very little ambiguity , that we are aware that— . we still have that duty to report whenever there is any safeguarding concern . that 'll still be part of the all-wales child protection procedures . that wo n't change , and that duty is always going to be there for all our professionals . but that awareness raising and training will be the key , and then , obviously , working in co-operation with our colleagues . dawn bowden am: okay , i understand that . have you been given an indication of how long you 've got between royal assent and implementation , and whether you 've thought through any of the key milestones that need to be implemented ? sally jenkins: there 's a group proposed that would be a strategic leadership group in the steering group that we 're part of , which is now laying out what would happen after royal assent if that is given . so , we will work towards that . dawn bowden am: okay . my final question , chair , is about some of the responses we 've had to this committee that say that the state should not get involved in family life—i 'm sure you 've heard those views—unless it 's in the most serious circumstances . to what extent do you think that this bill undermines the existing local authority responsibilities , or do n't you ? huw david: the state 's paramount role is to protect children from harm . that is our legal responsibility , it 's our moral responsibility , and we will discharge that . and there is obviously a view—it 's a view that is enshrined in the un convention on the rights of the child—that physical punishment , physical harm to a child is harm to a child , and we should be preventing that and act to prevent that . that would be the position of the welsh local government association , and we also respect the mandate that members of the national assembly for wales have too . and we believe that children can be raised by parents without recourse to physical punishment , effectively , and we 'd support parents in that . we do not believe that in the 50 nations across the world where such legislation exists that the state is interfering in family life unnecessarily . we believe this action reflects a cultural change , a sea change that 's taken place in wales over the last 30 to 40 years , where the vast majority of parents now say that they do not use it themselves , they do not support it , and we believe this is actually a reflection of what has happened in welsh society . we support assembly members in the view that the natural progression of that is that children 's rights are protected across wales . dawn bowden am: so , i 've got largely positive feedback from you in terms of the bill and its intentions , and so on . do you foresee any unintended consequences for this bill ? huw david: if we implement it carefully , if we implement it with the right resources , then i hope not . i think not . but as with every piece of legislation , it is about the implementation , it is about the cultural change as well , and that 's why i can not overstress the importance of making sure that resources are made available , because our social services departments—children 's social services in particular—are overstretched . they are at breaking point—make no bones about it—and they are dealing with children who are facing serious harm and neglect . we are having record numbers of contacts from police , from teachers , from doctors and , of course , from children themselves who are experiencing that harm and neglect . and obviously , we want to focus our energy and our attention on those children . equally , though , we do n't want to lose sight of those families and children that are experiencing significant problems , but who we want to support through our early intervention and prevention programmes , and that is why it is important that there is investment in those programmes , so that children do not end up in that terrible position where we have to , for their safety , take them from their birth families to protect them . and the reality is , in wales , that we are doing that to more children than we 've done for a long time , and the numbers are growing across wales . and that is only because of the most appalling neglect and abuse , because there is no way that any judge would permit us to act to make a child safe if it was not for that fact , and the facts are there . so , i do n't want that focus to be lost , but , of course , we welcome and understand the need to progress this piece of legislation . dawn bowden am: that rise that you talk about here , is that due to more interventions , greater awareness , more incidents ? i 'm trying to link this to the bill in terms of whether the bill is actually going to give you more work to do in those areas . sally jenkins: on the reasons for the rise in the numbers of looked-after children in wales , which are higher than those in england , and also the numbers of contacts that we have across the local authorities , the work of the care crisis review , which was completed last year ; the work of isabelle trowler , who 's the chief social worker in england ; countless research and reports that have taken place in the last 18 months ; and currently the public law working group , under the auspices of the president of the family court , would all indicate that it 's multifactorial . so , what you have is a range of reasons that have led to the increasing numbers of children becoming looked after across england and wales . what you ca n't do is identify a single reason . there have been headlines that have said , 'is it increased austerity ? ' that is clearly a part of this . is it in wales an increased awareness of adverse childhood experiences and the emphasis of the impact on children of , for example , domestic abuse ? is it because of our understanding of what happens to children in those households ? all of that research would say it 's all of those things . and then , when you also add in changes in our practice with our colleagues in the judiciary , changes in our police service , but also changes in our preventative services , you 've got that whole range of elements . and there is going on across the local authorities and welsh government a huge amount of work to try to address and understand that , and then to ameliorate that . children who need to be in care for safety need to be in care , but what we have to do is get to a point where fewer children come into care and we 're able to protect them , firstly , and secondly where those children who are in care are cared for in a way that delivers the best possible outcomes for them . so , there is no simple answer unfortunately . i think , in terms of this bill and unintended consequences , i agree absolutely with everything that huw has said . my job is around children at that far end , but what this bill does is it brings clarity . it brings a clarity even for those children at that very far end . it takes away even that point of discussion that this could possibly be okay , and i think that 's important to hang on to . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . sorry . alastair birch: one unintended consequences is that i think that there will be an increased focus on the uncrc . and , in terms of children having a discussion around this point , children need to be part of that discussion . it 's something that affects them . and a key aspect of education is the voice of the child . it has become significantly— . it 's changed completely in the last 10 years , and it is one of the key things in terms of us driving improvements . dawn bowden am: would that be something that you would be looking to do in schools ? alastair birch: anything that improves the voice of the child in any educational context is good and it 's very powerful for the children . and it improves their educational experiences , encouraging the opportunities for them to discuss the issues , the adverse childhood experiences that they encounter , which are significant , and it 's our educational professionals that are facing this day-in , day-out . they 've become a very highly trained workforce , they 're ace aware , they 're trauma aware , and anything that focuses , even increases , their professionalism and understanding around a particular point , and also— . so it 's a positive unintended consequence , shall we say , that it could reinvigorate some of the voice of the child discussion within various contexts . dawn bowden am: okay . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: we 've got some specific questions now on implementation for social services , from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . if this bill becomes law , would you encourage members of the public to contact social services departments if they do see a child being smacked ? sally jenkins: we already encourage members of the public to contact social services or the police , depending on the circumstances . interestingly , i 'm picking— janet finch-saunders am: what , if a child is being smacked now ? sally jenkins: yes . if a child is being smacked now , we would ask that people contact . we have a duty to report , as professionals . but if you were walking out , and you saw something happening to a child , in the same way as if you saw something to an adult . janet finch-saunders am: right . sally jenkins: so , i think that the challenge is about—we 've all probably , sadly , witnessed incidents in the doctor 's reception , or in a supermarket , and we 've failed to do something about it . and i think we then walk away and feel pretty guilty about that , realistically , when you see something happening to a child in a particular circumstance . i think we ca n't ignore the fact that a child is being assaulted in those circumstances . janet finch-saunders am: okay . thank you . a campaign opposing this bill , be reasonable wales , have said that 'if the law is changed , the consequences for parents will be considerable . ' it also says , 'anyone accused or convicted of assaulting a child—under the new definition— ' so , i suppose you could argue , a minor tap— 'will be subject to long-term social services involvement in their family and social stigma . ' to what extent is this accurate , and , also , will thresholds for social services intervention change if the bill is enacted ? sally jenkins: there are a number of parts to that . firstly , in terms of long-term social services intervention in a family 's life , i think , for people to be fully aware of the very few numbers of families where we have long-term intervention currently , even where there is what would be perceived as very significant abuse . what we do is we go in for short periods in families ' lives , to support them to work with their strengths , to work with them and their family members . it 's not about us going into families , whatever some of the public perception may be . our aim is to get in and get out . so , in terms of long-term intervention , what we want is for families to find their own solutions . we want families to be able to work with each other , and together , and local community support , and preventative services , to be able to address issues . this is not about punitive approaches from social services . so , that 's the first element . in terms of thresholds for children 's services , we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us . there may be a small number of referrals that come through . what we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle . we recognise that 's likely to happen . because we also know that this is actually quite a rare occurrence currently ; this is not a defence that 's being used with great frequency , this is not something that is happening . and if we look at the data , we know that the incidents of children , and the number of parents who now recognise this as an acceptable form of punishment , has steadily declined over the last 15 to 20 years . so it 's diminishing as it is . janet finch-saunders am: so , on that one then , is there a need for legislation that will—obviously there 'll be resources for the welsh government and there 'll be resources out of hours and things like that—is there a need for legislation if , as you say , natural behaviour and the culture is changing ? let 's be honest , as you 've rightly pointed out , in social services—i know in my own authority—in your own authority , you 're saying that even now you 're working with the police , on systematic failings within the system . sally jenkins: two things . firstly , we want legislation that reflects our society—we do n't want the two to be out of kilter . that would be my first natural response : surely our legislation should be reflective of what our world is . it should n't be that we 've got these rather confusing elements running in parallel , and that continues to perpetuate a lack of clarity and the ambiguity that we currently see . i think the other element is that , again , this is about potentially an accelerating of that awareness and that culture in our society , about how we care for our children . we 've got there naturally ; we 've got there by the change that 's happened in wales over the last 15 to 20 years . what this does is to continue with that change and continue with that awareness and understanding of how we positively , from a strength-based approach , should care for our children , bearing in mind what 's required of us in terms of the uncrc . janet finch-saunders am: okay . are there any comments from anyone else ? huw david: simply to say that i think that , in terms of that clarity for the very vulnerable children out there who are currently being assaulted—seriously assaulted and abused by their parents , which goes on on a daily basis—that is already covered by existing legislation . but at the moment , they do n't know , because they could be being told—and they probably are being told—by their parents that 's it 's okay , that they can smack their child and that that 's acceptable . they do n't know the difference . a young child is not going to know that difference and there is confusion about what is— . and if you asked most parents , and in fact lots of professionals , they would not be able to tell you , and probably most of you would n't be able to tell me exactly where is the threshold— janet finch-saunders am: yes , where 's that line . huw david: well , at the moment , we do n't know where that line is . that vulnerable child , at home , being abused by their parents , does not know where that line is . and they should know where that line is because then they can pick up the phone to childline or they can talk to a professional and ask them where that line is . so , that would be a step forward . i do recognise , though , that what we do n't want to do—and the last thing any of us want to do—is criminalise parents who are bringing up their children . that is why we 're saying there needs to be an emphasis on the support programmes that are available to parents . and to be clear , there is no way that we want long-term involvement in any child 's life , but particularly not in the lives of children who have been smacked by their parents . that is not going to be the result of this legislation , trust me , because we do n't want to be involved in—we have n't got the resources to be involved in children 's lives . the social worker or the police officer—if they become involved , then there would be a proportionate response to that , and there 'll also be a test about whether or not that is progressed . so , if there is an allegation—if this legislation is passed—then that will be looked into and a consideration will be made about whether any action will be taken , and as with any allegation of the law being broken , there would be a proportionate response , as there is now . lynne neagle am: and the next question does relate to the practical response to that . janet . janet finch-saunders am: yes . can you outline the practical ways in which social services ' interaction with parents will change as a result of this proposed law and do you envisage that all referrals to the police will be automatically referred to social services for an assessment ? who 's going to make those decisions ? sally jenkins: that will be part of the implementation phase about that decision making . interestingly , the number of referrals that we currently get from the police that we take absolutely no action on is extraordinary . so , we get a very , very large number of— . it will be happening now ; sitting in the civic centre in newport city council will be a whole host of social workers taking in the public protection notifications from overnight . it 's 10 o'clock , so they 're assessing them now , as we speak . and an awful lot of those will have no further action from the local authority . janet finch-saunders am: but will they be investigated ? sally jenkins: no . there will be no action . there are countless referrals made by agencies to local authorities that we take no action on . janet finch-saunders am: so , if there 's an increase as a result of greater awareness— sally jenkins: what happens is there is a paper assessment of them . there 's a look at what 's happened , who 's involved , what the police have reported , and there 's work being done with the police to improve that . because one of the things that we want to get to is actually where we 're not using huge amounts of time to look at that , but what comes to us is what we act on . so , there is work going on with a number of police authorities to look at how you improve that process . but i suppose , to pick up , each incident will be looked at , each one will be assessed in a way that is proportionate , as huw says , to look at what 's happened and then investigated . lynne neagle am: sally , can you give us a couple of examples of what kind of things might have come in that you would then take no action on ? sally jenkins: we get countless referrals , for example , where there 's been a domestic abuse incident overnight where a child was n't present in the property and we then have n't taken action . it ’ ll be where the level of harm that ’ s perceived to happen to that child is below the threshold for intervention from children 's services . janet finch-saunders am: i ’ m pretty cynical about assessment , because , you know , i have people come in who are benefit claimants where , when they ’ ve been assessed , the whole process has been very flawed and i ’ ve had to fight and fight and fight on their behalf . so— sally jenkins: assessment processes within social— janet finch-saunders am: but if you 're struggling now with those assessments— sally jenkins: assessment processes within social services are as laid out in the social services and well-being ( wales ) act 2014. so , we have within what we carry out , i suppose , that kind of initial look , that look at the information , what else do we know about that family— janet finch-saunders am: and are they qualified people that are doing this ? sally jenkins: yes , absolutely . huw david: and , in fact , in lots of places in wales now , it ’ s a multi-agency assessment . so , it ’ s a joint assessment carried out with police professionals and health professionals . janet finch-saunders am: so , what proportion currently would you not be taking any action on , if a report came in of some domestic abuse where a child had perhaps been smacked ? sally jenkins: if something came in to us where a child had been smacked and there was something clearly there , we would look at it . we would clearly look at it and we would take some sort of action . janet finch-saunders am: even now , before the legislation ? sally jenkins: yes . lynne neagle am: can you ask a final question ? and i 'm going to have to appeal for brief answers , because we 've got a lot of ground to cover . huw david: just very quickly , there may be no action from social services , but it doesn ’ t mean that we don ’ t offer support . so , the expectation is that support is offered in those circumstances from family support services , for example— sally jenkins: or prevention . huw david: —or prevention services . so , we would not say , if we were aware , for example , that there was domestic abuse at a home , ‘ there ’ s no role for children ’ s social services ’ , because there may be an assessment that that child may not be at immediate risk of harm , but we would obviously recognise that there are causes for concern there and we would offer that support . so , just to be clear about that . and that ’ s a process that happens in every social services department in the uk , and it ’ s happened for a very long time , and , in fact , it ’ s reflective of the legislation that you have laid down as assembly members . lynne neagle am: and are those services there , huw ? because i ’ m very acutely aware of the pressure on local government . are the services there ? is there sufficient resource in things like families first ? because what i ’ m hearing on the ground is that eligibility is changing for even those preventative services . huw david: there ’ s not enough of those services , and , obviously—you may have heard me saying this before—i think we need to invest more in those services , and i hope you invest more in the services , because , obviously , prevention is better than cure . and those pressures that sally talked about earlier are pressures that are not going away ; they ’ re only increasing by the day , actually , and i would want us to be able to offer those services now . because that example of a child that perhaps is in a home where there is domestic abuse—we ’ ll probably have another referral off them in a couple of months ’ time , and that could escalate . and what i ’ d rather do is provide support to that family and try and stop that family breaking down so that , in six months , we 're not going back and saying that we 've got to take this child into care because the domestic abuse has worsened and that child is at risk . but those services need additional investment . sally jenkins: i appreciate that time is of the essence , but , just really quickly in relation to that , it ’ s not just social services . so , for example , there are developments like encompass , which is a piece of work that is being rolled out across gwent and across other areas , which is where the police automatically notify the school overnight of an incident , not expecting the school to do anything per se , but to be aware , to be able to offer care for that child . alastair birch: can i add to that ? operation encompass i know in gwent has been operational , and we started it in pembrokeshire 18 months ago . we as a local authority—and it ’ ll be education that will contact the school around the domestic incident happening , and the school as part of that protocol will provide a level of universal service support for that child when they come in , before 9 o ’ clock , so that professionals are aware of the needs of the welfare of that child at that point . so , you know , schools play a key role in the universal service of this and we work very closely with our social care colleagues on that . lynne neagle am: okay . janet , your last question , please . janet finch-saunders am: the bill 's explanatory memorandum refers to an estimate of 274 offences annually where lawful chastisement was used as a defence or considered . it says there is also potential to create extra demand on out-of-hours social services teams due to the time that the offences were reported , and in order to support safeguarding measures . have you assessed how this bill will impact on emergency and out-of-hours local authority services ? sally jenkins: we have considered that , and again i think that 's something that we would very much want to look at as part of implementation . we have out-of-hours provision , we have emergency duty teams already across wales that operate 24/7 . there 's no doubt that they exist and they work very closely with our police colleagues . janet finch-saunders am: are they overstretched at the moment ? sally jenkins: i think in the same way as all of social services is . if we were offered additional resource , we are going to take that . but are they working in a way that protects children day in , day out , and vulnerable adults ? yes , they are , and they will continue to do so . lynne neagle am: thank you very much . we 've got some specific questions now on the impact on education from jayne bryant . jayne bryant am: thank you , chair . good morning . alastair , you 've already mentioned about awareness raising and training , which will be key with educational professionals . how confident are you that teachers and others working in those educational settings will be clear about how to support the implementation of this bill , if enacted ? alastair birch: training requirements for all professionals in education settings are clear . the universal tier 1 training is there , and all local authorities in wales will implement that . in that level of general safeguarding awareness and training , the infinite emphasis is on the duty to report . that will remain the same . the thresholds for social care , that 's their responsibility . that duty to report will always be there . it says in 'keeping learners safe ' , which is the bible in terms of education professionals , that there 's a responsibility on the professional to make that referral and for that universal service . so , the more specialist safeguarding leads within the schools , who have become highly skilled professionals in terms of understanding what might be significant harm—because that 's what we 're talking about—they understand the legalities when a referral needs to be made . there 's always the collation of safeguarding information , where there might be just general concerns about neglect and other areas , which combined would create a picture that there might be significant neglect or significant harm to the child , and then that referral would be made to the child care assessment team or the police . so , that awareness—it needs to be clear for educational professionals that that duty to report is always there . if they believe that that significant harm has happened then that report then goes to the child care assessment team . they will make the judgment on the threshold because they are the professionals . they have the multi-agency awareness of how that meets the threshold . but in terms of education , it 'll be that awareness , making sure that there 's clarity . if there 's anything that professionals need to be trained additionally on , it 'll need to go into 'keeping learners safe ' , which at the moment is being rewritten . so , there would have to be some new possible information there relating to this . but as long as there 's clarity , and once that implementation phase and the discussion has happened , as long as it 's clear for professionals that the duty is always there and they feel a significant harm , then that report will always be there and will always need to be made . it 's making sure—and i 'll echo what my colleague said , huw—that the services are key for families . schools are absolutely fundamental in that support for the families . they have those relationships with the families . i know there was discussion around professional trust . on a daily basis , professionals are working on that trust with parents , because they are the ones that can engage with those families . the family support officers that are working on the ground with highly complex families , with multiple leads and supporting the children—they are fundamental , and investment in that level of support would also help our colleagues as well . so , anything that 's preventative . that is already happening in schools and is effective , and is shown to be effective , and has an evidence base—we 'd always support that that would continue to be invested in . so , that 's really my answer . jayne bryant am: okay . and you were saying about how important trust is as well , but do you think that there 's a risk that those in education settings will have a key role in referring more parents to social services , which some have said could cause potential harm to relationships and cause mistrust ? alastair birch: i do n't think it 's a matter of mistrust—it 's a matter of , you know , if a professional believes , based on the evidence that they have , because they 're working with that child every day , that there is significant harm to that child , they are under a duty to report that to social care . so , part of the work is with families , and most of the referrals we make are with parental consent . that consent is a key element of this , and conversation with our social care colleagues is usually , 'you need to speak to the parents again and have a conversation with them . ' some of the nfas—the ones that do n't get referred at threshold—it will come back to school for , possibly , some support from the family or a team around the family or some other aspect . so , i do n't think— . the trust in the professionals—it 's actually more important that we are seen to be upholding our duties under the all-wales safeguarding procedures . that 's what engenders trust in a professional workforce . jayne bryant am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you very much . we 're going to move on now to some questions about the importance of awareness raising from siân gwenllian . sian gwenllian am: good morning . in looking at your written evidence , you say that we must make it very clear to parents , guardians and the public that this legislation is not trying to criminalise parents , and that is clearly very important for you . how do you think we should do that and who should be doing that work ? sally jenkins: i think that 's really broad . obviously , colleagues in education , colleagues in social care , colleagues in preventative services , but also welsh government and the national assembly , in terms of those drivers in relation to that awareness raising are really , really key . if you look at some of the other campaigns that have been run , notably in relation to violence against women , domestic abuse and sexual violence , and echoing some of those building campaigns that have been done to raise awareness—i think those would be really good models to begin to consider in terms of how this is taken forward with awareness . we also know that there are a number of routes that we can go through in terms of raising awareness . we have existing preventative services , we have all our universal services , we have the regional safeguarding boards and the national safeguarding boards . so , there are a number of avenues that we could then explore . in terms of not wishing to criminalise , i think if we look at the numbers , they are very , very small . and i think one of the things we need to hold on to in this is a sense of proportion about what is or is n't likely to happen once or if this bill ever gets to the point of royal assent—they are small numbers who currently use this defence . it is about that wider issue of awareness raising , and using all of those avenues will help us to do that in the broadest sense . sian gwenllian am: do you , therefore , believe that this needs to be on the face of the bill ? that is , you do n't say this in your evidence . i 'd like to know your opinion on that . scotland is going to be making it a duty for scottish ministers to raise awareness of the impact of the bill . so far , the welsh government says that we do n't need to do that in wales . would n't it make it clearer for you if it was a clear duty on the face of the bill , for example as it was with the human transplantation ( wales ) act 2013 ? there was a duty in that act for ministers to promote transplantation . surely , that awareness raising aspect would be clearer for everyone if it was on the face of the bill . do you have an opinion on that ? huw david: well , welsh government have given that commitment , and i know the welsh government honour every commitment that they make— [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: that 's why i 'm asking . huw david: i do n't know whether that is necessary—i 'm not a legislator . i think that there 's obviously an inherent interest in welsh government raising awareness , because we have to raise awareness effectively for this to be successful , otherwise we will have parents who feel that they 're being criminalised , and that 's the last thing we want . i think it 's worthy of consideration , but , as i say , i 'm not a legislator or a lawyer , so i do n't know what implications that will have long term . but to be fair to welsh government , i think that commitment is one that i 'm sure will be honoured , because welsh government will want to make a success of this bill if it does receive royal assent . sian gwenllian am: okay . but is it clear who would pay for all of that ? huw david: i 've suddenly changed my mind— [ laughter . ] i think it should be a duty on welsh government ministers—absolutely . i do n't need to check with lawyers or legislators . there we go . and that 's the wlga position ; i do n't need to ask the other 21 leaders on that either . [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: would n't it make it clearer if there was a clear duty on the face of the bill that awareness raising had to happen ? it would be clearer , then , for local authorities and people in the front-line services what needs to happen . sally jenkins: i 'm going to echo huw . [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: i thought you might . okay , fine . lynne neagle am: okay . we 're moving on now , then , to the contentious issue of resources and we 've got some questions from hefin . hefin david am: sally jenkins , you said that the purpose of the bill is to bring clarity and to remove what is a little-used defence . is n't this an expensive way of doing that ? sally jenkins: i do n't think so , no . i think that our children deserve the best legislation . hefin david am: but introducing this legislation diverts finances from other areas of children 's services—or does n't ? sally jenkins: well , i would say , no , i do n't think it will divert resources from children 's services . firstly , going back to the comment made , i think , proportionally , this is a very small number of cases . it 's a very small number of existing cases that go through in terms of prosecution , or consideration for prosecution . we know that it 's likely , from some of the work that we 've already done , that it 's not opening floodgates for a sudden sea of referrals to children 's services—that 's not the way this is going to be , because the numbers are not out there because of the changes that have already happened in welsh family life and welsh society . so , i think as part of the implementation phase , we need to have a really clear understanding of the trajectory of those costs and what 's likely to happen over the first six months , 12 months in terms of people 's awareness and understanding and what is referred and how that 's worked . but in terms of a huge number , no , i do n't anticipate it being that . hefin david am: but the costs would n't just be directed to the number of referrals and the number of cases raised , it 's the cost around that , with training of staff , awareness—all those extra additional costs that always come with legislation . is it too much ? is it— ? sally jenkins: no . and i agree with that—that there clearly are—but if you think , many of those things will be aligned with work we are already doing , but it brings a clarity to that work . so , our teachers , our social workers , our health workers , our police officers already get substantial training around child protection , around safeguarding , around adverse childhood experiences and around a trauma-informed approach to children . what this does is it layers a clarity on that . but rather than having a part of that training , which has to deal with this as an aspect—that is no longer there ; it is a clear message for all professions . hefin david am: i fully appreciate that , and in the briefing note you 've given us , you 've outlined the pressures on social services . so , do you think this is another way of getting money into social services ? sally jenkins: if this was a way of getting money into— . i can think of better ways , but i do n't think this is it . no , i mean , i absolutely do not think that . i think this is a clear commitment to the rights of children in wales ; this is not about levering additional resources into children 's services . oh that it was so simple . hefin david am: okay . and , do you think those costs are quantifiable ? sally jenkins: i think we are currently looking at work and are doing work across my own local authority and across two others to look at breaking down those costs , not just for local authority , but also for health , for police and for children and family court advisory and support service cymru . so , there is work currently taking place to try to quantify those costs . hefin david am: okay . i think there was a bit about local authorities that siân— lynne neagle am: okay . siân gwenllian has got a question on resources . sian gwenllian am: yes , just to carry on from that , in a way . the explanatory memorandum that accompanies the bill talks about the unknown costs for different agencies . you mentioned there that you 're doing work around trying to identify some of those costs , but would n't it be useful if the explanatory memorandum did explain more about any unknown or unidentified costs , partly in order to calm some of those fears around that ? giving a title 'unidentified costs'—is that good enough ? sally jenkins: i think , clearly , that is a challenge , and that is work that we are participating in and are committed to completing with welsh government , to look at what those costs are . sian gwenllian am: and then they can be added into this . huw david: i think this is where it would be helpful in the committee 's deliberations and where our concern would be , because the reality is we 're not going to know what the costs are until it 's actually implemented , because we have n't implemented this before . and , therefore , i think there needs to be a commitment that , whatever the costs are , those costs are met because it is legislation that is being led by the national assembly for wales . and whilst we do n't see it as levering in additional resources , we do n't think it should be at the expense of current service provision to vulnerable families in wales , and therefore it 's important that it is properly and fully resourced . sian gwenllian am: what i would argue on that is that you have to try and forecast . you say it 's difficult to forecast how much this is going to cost , but we have to try and forecast that , and part of the argument for trying to have projections is to show that , perhaps , it 's not going to cost that much , and that would add to the argument that , 'okay , this is going to be fine to do and it 's not going to put too much pressure on us ' . or we need to know that this is going to cost a lot to do it effectively , and therefore you have to make your argument , then , 'well , we ca n't afford that , the money has to come from somewhere else . ' we have to get the costs , surely . huw david: yes , and we will work very closely with welsh government to try and establish those costs as quickly as possible . there will be some costs that we will be able to identify . so , for example , a campaign , an awareness-raising campaign , the marketing , if you like , but some of the other costs will be more difficult to establish in terms of the resource implications for front-line workers . i expressed a view that we need to see some additional investment in some of those programmes that are not targeted directly at families that would be impacted by this but support all families across wales that have different needs , and some of that provision is universal . obviously , my view is the more we put into that , the better . so , there 's no limit to that , but i suspect welsh government will take a very different view to that . but i think that is something where we need to see a commitment to some additional resources . but i do n't put an upper limit on that , because i do n't think there 's an authority in wales , and i do n't think there 's a charity , a police service or a health board in wales that does n't think that we need to do more of that and could offer more of that if the resources were available . sian gwenllian am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've come to the end of our time , so can i thank you all for attending and for answering all of our questions ? it 's been a really useful and informative discussion . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you again , all of you , for coming . huw david: and thank you for your questions and engagement . we welcome the opportunity . alastair birch: thank you very much . sally jenkins: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: okay , item 3 is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the minister for housing and local government—additional information for our inquiry into school funding . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for health and social services on in-patient child and adolescent mental health services provision , and i would like to briefly return to that when we go into private . are members happy to note those ? thank you . item 4 , then : can i propose a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? thank you .

sally jenkins said that this was very broad . colleagues in education , in social care , in preventative services , and also welsh government and the national assembly were key to this . there were lots of routes that could go through in terms of raising awareness , including preventative services , universal services and regional safeguarding boards and the national safeguarding boards . it was about that wider issue of awareness raising , and using all of those avenues would help us to do that in the broadest sense .

what did huw david respond to whether this needed to be on the face of the bill ? </s> lynne neagle am: okay . good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from suzy davies and jack sargeant and i 'm very pleased to welcome jayne bryant back , who is substituting for jack today . are there any declarations of interest from members , please ? no . okay , thank you . item 2 , then , this morning , is our sixth scrutiny session on the children ( abolition of defence of reasonable punishment ) ( wales ) bill . i 'm very pleased to welcome our witnesses this morning : sally jenkins , who is chair of all wales heads of children ’ s services and is here representing the association of directors of social services ; alastair birch , who is senior system leader for equalities and safeguarding at pembrokeshire county council , who is here representing the association of directors of education wales ; and councillor huw david , who is the welsh local government association spokesperson for health and social care and leader of bridgend county borough council . so , thank you all for attending this morning . we 're very pleased to have you here . we 've got a lot of ground to cover , so , if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions and i 'll start just by asking about your general support for the bill , which is outlined in the evidence . can you just explain why you think the current law is ineffective or unclear ? alastair birch: bore da—bore da , bawb . so , i 'm alastair birch . the statement , really , from adew is that the rights of the child should be educated and achieved , really , under the united nations convention on the rights of the child . the current legislation has been criticised , obviously , by the un concerning the defence of reasonable punishment still being within our current legislation . so , we will always—adew will always—advocate that the rights of the child be upheld , so that is really the fundamental aspect in terms of the statement from adew , and the position of adew is that the rights of the child are fundamental in this process . and there are certain articles— . i know that the rights of children and young persons ( wales ) measure 2011 made sure that article 3 and article 4 , article 12 and article 37 were a focus in terms of making sure that the best interests of the child were put first , that children expressing their views and opinions was a priority . and we know , for safeguarding purposes , that the express opinions of the child and the voice of the child are a fundamental aspect of any safe environment , whether it be a school or college . so , that is—the position is really following that legal position under the rights of children and young persons ( wales ) measure . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . nothing to add at this stage , no ? sally jenkins: i 'll just add , on behalf of adss and on behalf of children 's services and social services more widely , for us , this is not a change in our position , this is not new ; this is a position that we , on behalf of the leaders of social services across wales , have taken over many years , going back 20 , 25 years . i think what we would say is that we really welcome this bill and we welcome the proposed change for the clarity it would bring—the clarity that it would bring for children , for parents and for professionals . i think what we would recognise is that this is a very little-used piece of legislation , so it 's rare , it 's not as if this is something that is going to cast great change across the scene for children and families in wales , but what it will do is represent a change in the reality of how we care and nurture our children . i would echo absolutely what alastair has said in terms of the rights of the child , but equally , in terms of all of our policies in wales in terms of promoting well-being for children , this has to be key . so , for us , this is about a natural progression of change in how we care for our children in wales . for children 's services at the very sharp end of this world , for us , it brings a true clarity . this continues with an ambiguity in how we treat our children and how we care for our children , and the shift for us brings that very much needed clarity . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the committee has already heard different views about whether there 's clear evidence that physical punishment is harmful to children . what evidence does the work of social services provide about whether physical punishment is actually harmful ? sally jenkins: obviously , what you 'll all be aware of is that , as part of the consultation for this bill , the public policy institute did a further piece of research to look at the impact of physical punishment on children . a number of things that we know—we know from across the world that the evidence is that introducing legislation or changing legislation in this way improves children 's positions within their families . what we know is that children themselves , as alastair has already referred to , really find physical punishment demeaning and harmful , and for children it is an emotionally damaging experience . now , there may be disagreement about that , there will be different views on that , but that 's the voice of the child in this debate . the voice of the child is very clear that physical punishment is for them harmful . i think what we would also say is that , in the world that we work in , it 's part of a continuum , and , whilst this is an element of how children are cared for , what we see is a continuum where an acceptance of how we treat children in a particular way perpetuates throughout our work . by changing this , it helps that shift to that absolute recognition that our children must be cared for in a way that is physically safe in all dimensions for them . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've had evidence from the equal protection network that the reasonable punishment defence undermines child protection and fails to protect children because it permits an arbitrary level of violence , which invades children 's physical integrity , making it a potential pathway to more serious physical or sexual abuse , and you did refer to that just now . is there anything you want to add on that ? sally jenkins: i would echo that . i think there is something in this that is about our culture , about how we see our children . it is about how we see our smallest and most vulnerable people , and if it is acceptable it opens the door to those other , more extreme versions of violence , which then complicates the issue for us . this is about clarity , and , whilst there is an argument that this is a small episode for a child , it 's not a small episode for a child , it is a major episode for a child , and i think absolutely , as you said , the potential for it then to lead on , and over gradation and time to increase the risk for children , is clearly there . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the final question from me : your written evidence emphasises the need for greater clarity around the definition of what constitutes corporal punishment , but that contrasts with what we 've been told by the children 's commissioner and the equal protection network , who 've emphasised the importance of simplicity in the bill . how do you respond to that view , and is what you 're calling for essential to be on the face of the bill ? sally jenkins: it 's not essential for it to be on the face of the bill . what we would like to see is discussion within the implementation phase for that nuancing . absolutely agree in terms of simplicity—i think that is really important—and i 've already mentioned clarity . what we do n't want to do is further confuse the position . we know that the legislation in different countries has done that , and there are ways that you can do it , but what we would welcome is an opportunity during the implementation phase for discussion . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . huw david: and , as a principle , obviously we would welcome full involvement , and we know there 's the commitment from welsh government to full involvement in the implementation , because , as with every piece of legislation , implementation is the most important part , and we would want to ensure there is that commitment to a major awareness-raising campaign , and there is that from welsh government , because we need to take families , carers and parents with us on this . also we need to ensure that there is that support available to parents and carers that do sometimes struggle with parenting , and that needs to be a universal offer across wales . if we 're to progress with this , that has to be an option that is offered to every parent in wales . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . sally jenkins: local authorities have already been very heavily involved in terms of looking at this bill and exploring what the issues are and the discussions and looking at what the implications from a local authority perspective will be , as huw describes , both in terms of the awareness raising , early support and intervention and prevention services for families against the backdrop of the current issues that we have in local government , but also awareness raising—because absolutely it is key that families come with us on this journey . this is not an imposition . this is embracing a culture and a value system for our children . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . i 've got some questions now from dawn bowden on the implementation of the bill . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . so , you 've pre-empted me , huw . huw david: right . sorry . i 've got good eyesight ; i ca n't see— . [ laughter . ] dawn bowden am: you 've already said , obviously , that you 're looking towards working with welsh government in terms of its implementation . what 's been your role so far in terms of the implementation of the bill—local authorities generally , now ? have you had a role ? has welsh government been involving you in discussions around the introduction of the bill so far ? huw david: yes . so , obviously we were consulted—a key consultee—but also our officials have worked very closely with welsh government officials to make sure this is implemented successfully , if it is progressed . sally jenkins: our involvement with this , from a social services perspective , goes back over two years , directly in working towards this point , never mind the history in terms of work towards this area . but , very directly in relation to this bill , we were first involved at least two years ago , to recollect , and that was in a series of workshops with other agencies , for example children and family court advisory and support service cymru and the police , and looking in real depth at what the implications would be for us as agencies to look at what the likely trajectory would be in terms of our pathways for referral into our services and what that might mean for us . and then particularly , for example , with cafcass cymru in relation to private law , what the fallout might be , and then what , if anything—and that 's the discussion that we need to have—that could mean for children 's services in particular , given the pressures that we 're already under . so , we 've been in constant , i suppose , involvement in terms of the bill already , as part of the consultation , in terms of the focus groups and in terms of direct work with welsh government officials to take this forward . and we are absolutely committed to continuing with that work . dawn bowden am: okay . you touched there on the pressures that you 're already under , which we fully appreciate , but you also mentioned in answers to lynne neagle earlier on that you welcomed the bill in terms of its clarity . so , are you confident that the bill can be implemented without any major impact on your capacity to deal with it ? sally jenkins: we 've done— . a number of local authorities—my own included , newport city council , has done some work to look at what the likely impact would be and then actually to look at what some of that costing would need to be . further work is needed on that area , and that needs to be carried out during the implementation phase . i think what we 've done is we 've looked internationally at what the impact has been elsewhere when similar legislation has been introduced to try and gauge , but that 's difficult to do in terms of comparable nations and size and also different systems . and obviously our approach in terms of children and pedagogy is very different from some of the nations that have already done this . i would n't like to say one way or the other , because i think , in terms of that culture shift , it could be a double impact on us in terms of increased referrals because of increased awareness , but it could also be , i suppose , as huw alludes to , that , if we 're looking at ensuring greater awareness of preventative services and support services for parents , actually people coming to the fore and asking us for those services as well . so , at this stage , i think what we would want to say is that we continue to be fully involved in the implementation phase , to look at what the cost implications for that could be , and not just for the local authorities but also the police , cafcass cymru , for third sector organisations involved in preventative services . i do n't think any of that should undermine the position in terms of children and their rights within our society . so , a difficult answer , in the sense that— dawn bowden am: no , i understand . what you 're saying is that this is a piece of legislation that , in your view , is a good piece of legislation . it 's setting out to , hopefully , achieve what the purpose of it is and you will deliver what you need to . can i ask you whether , then , you 've also given thought to the impact on—we 've talked about social services , but the impact on other services , like housing , education and so on ? you 're obviously coming at it from slightly different angles in other sections . alastair birch: we are part of the universal service for children , and we very much work in co-operation with the wlga and our social care colleagues , and we 've been part of that consultation . in terms of education , the main changes , or adaptations , would be around training and awareness . and , in terms of the bill , there needs to be the clarity—ambiguity would be bad—in terms of making sure that safeguarding leads within all schools have the right training and support . so , really , that 's the key element there , and then obviously the preventative services for the parents that schools can signpost , and sometimes possibly even host , in terms of being community schools . these positive parenting approaches that— . i have colleagues who have worked in that area for many years and see the benefits in how those positive parenting approaches make a difference to families . dawn bowden am: so , from your point of view , it 's awareness raising , is it ? alastair birch: it 's awareness raising ; it 's making sure that professionals are fully briefed on necessary changes , that there 's very little ambiguity , that we are aware that— . we still have that duty to report whenever there is any safeguarding concern . that 'll still be part of the all-wales child protection procedures . that wo n't change , and that duty is always going to be there for all our professionals . but that awareness raising and training will be the key , and then , obviously , working in co-operation with our colleagues . dawn bowden am: okay , i understand that . have you been given an indication of how long you 've got between royal assent and implementation , and whether you 've thought through any of the key milestones that need to be implemented ? sally jenkins: there 's a group proposed that would be a strategic leadership group in the steering group that we 're part of , which is now laying out what would happen after royal assent if that is given . so , we will work towards that . dawn bowden am: okay . my final question , chair , is about some of the responses we 've had to this committee that say that the state should not get involved in family life—i 'm sure you 've heard those views—unless it 's in the most serious circumstances . to what extent do you think that this bill undermines the existing local authority responsibilities , or do n't you ? huw david: the state 's paramount role is to protect children from harm . that is our legal responsibility , it 's our moral responsibility , and we will discharge that . and there is obviously a view—it 's a view that is enshrined in the un convention on the rights of the child—that physical punishment , physical harm to a child is harm to a child , and we should be preventing that and act to prevent that . that would be the position of the welsh local government association , and we also respect the mandate that members of the national assembly for wales have too . and we believe that children can be raised by parents without recourse to physical punishment , effectively , and we 'd support parents in that . we do not believe that in the 50 nations across the world where such legislation exists that the state is interfering in family life unnecessarily . we believe this action reflects a cultural change , a sea change that 's taken place in wales over the last 30 to 40 years , where the vast majority of parents now say that they do not use it themselves , they do not support it , and we believe this is actually a reflection of what has happened in welsh society . we support assembly members in the view that the natural progression of that is that children 's rights are protected across wales . dawn bowden am: so , i 've got largely positive feedback from you in terms of the bill and its intentions , and so on . do you foresee any unintended consequences for this bill ? huw david: if we implement it carefully , if we implement it with the right resources , then i hope not . i think not . but as with every piece of legislation , it is about the implementation , it is about the cultural change as well , and that 's why i can not overstress the importance of making sure that resources are made available , because our social services departments—children 's social services in particular—are overstretched . they are at breaking point—make no bones about it—and they are dealing with children who are facing serious harm and neglect . we are having record numbers of contacts from police , from teachers , from doctors and , of course , from children themselves who are experiencing that harm and neglect . and obviously , we want to focus our energy and our attention on those children . equally , though , we do n't want to lose sight of those families and children that are experiencing significant problems , but who we want to support through our early intervention and prevention programmes , and that is why it is important that there is investment in those programmes , so that children do not end up in that terrible position where we have to , for their safety , take them from their birth families to protect them . and the reality is , in wales , that we are doing that to more children than we 've done for a long time , and the numbers are growing across wales . and that is only because of the most appalling neglect and abuse , because there is no way that any judge would permit us to act to make a child safe if it was not for that fact , and the facts are there . so , i do n't want that focus to be lost , but , of course , we welcome and understand the need to progress this piece of legislation . dawn bowden am: that rise that you talk about here , is that due to more interventions , greater awareness , more incidents ? i 'm trying to link this to the bill in terms of whether the bill is actually going to give you more work to do in those areas . sally jenkins: on the reasons for the rise in the numbers of looked-after children in wales , which are higher than those in england , and also the numbers of contacts that we have across the local authorities , the work of the care crisis review , which was completed last year ; the work of isabelle trowler , who 's the chief social worker in england ; countless research and reports that have taken place in the last 18 months ; and currently the public law working group , under the auspices of the president of the family court , would all indicate that it 's multifactorial . so , what you have is a range of reasons that have led to the increasing numbers of children becoming looked after across england and wales . what you ca n't do is identify a single reason . there have been headlines that have said , 'is it increased austerity ? ' that is clearly a part of this . is it in wales an increased awareness of adverse childhood experiences and the emphasis of the impact on children of , for example , domestic abuse ? is it because of our understanding of what happens to children in those households ? all of that research would say it 's all of those things . and then , when you also add in changes in our practice with our colleagues in the judiciary , changes in our police service , but also changes in our preventative services , you 've got that whole range of elements . and there is going on across the local authorities and welsh government a huge amount of work to try to address and understand that , and then to ameliorate that . children who need to be in care for safety need to be in care , but what we have to do is get to a point where fewer children come into care and we 're able to protect them , firstly , and secondly where those children who are in care are cared for in a way that delivers the best possible outcomes for them . so , there is no simple answer unfortunately . i think , in terms of this bill and unintended consequences , i agree absolutely with everything that huw has said . my job is around children at that far end , but what this bill does is it brings clarity . it brings a clarity even for those children at that very far end . it takes away even that point of discussion that this could possibly be okay , and i think that 's important to hang on to . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . sorry . alastair birch: one unintended consequences is that i think that there will be an increased focus on the uncrc . and , in terms of children having a discussion around this point , children need to be part of that discussion . it 's something that affects them . and a key aspect of education is the voice of the child . it has become significantly— . it 's changed completely in the last 10 years , and it is one of the key things in terms of us driving improvements . dawn bowden am: would that be something that you would be looking to do in schools ? alastair birch: anything that improves the voice of the child in any educational context is good and it 's very powerful for the children . and it improves their educational experiences , encouraging the opportunities for them to discuss the issues , the adverse childhood experiences that they encounter , which are significant , and it 's our educational professionals that are facing this day-in , day-out . they 've become a very highly trained workforce , they 're ace aware , they 're trauma aware , and anything that focuses , even increases , their professionalism and understanding around a particular point , and also— . so it 's a positive unintended consequence , shall we say , that it could reinvigorate some of the voice of the child discussion within various contexts . dawn bowden am: okay . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: we 've got some specific questions now on implementation for social services , from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . if this bill becomes law , would you encourage members of the public to contact social services departments if they do see a child being smacked ? sally jenkins: we already encourage members of the public to contact social services or the police , depending on the circumstances . interestingly , i 'm picking— janet finch-saunders am: what , if a child is being smacked now ? sally jenkins: yes . if a child is being smacked now , we would ask that people contact . we have a duty to report , as professionals . but if you were walking out , and you saw something happening to a child , in the same way as if you saw something to an adult . janet finch-saunders am: right . sally jenkins: so , i think that the challenge is about—we 've all probably , sadly , witnessed incidents in the doctor 's reception , or in a supermarket , and we 've failed to do something about it . and i think we then walk away and feel pretty guilty about that , realistically , when you see something happening to a child in a particular circumstance . i think we ca n't ignore the fact that a child is being assaulted in those circumstances . janet finch-saunders am: okay . thank you . a campaign opposing this bill , be reasonable wales , have said that 'if the law is changed , the consequences for parents will be considerable . ' it also says , 'anyone accused or convicted of assaulting a child—under the new definition— ' so , i suppose you could argue , a minor tap— 'will be subject to long-term social services involvement in their family and social stigma . ' to what extent is this accurate , and , also , will thresholds for social services intervention change if the bill is enacted ? sally jenkins: there are a number of parts to that . firstly , in terms of long-term social services intervention in a family 's life , i think , for people to be fully aware of the very few numbers of families where we have long-term intervention currently , even where there is what would be perceived as very significant abuse . what we do is we go in for short periods in families ' lives , to support them to work with their strengths , to work with them and their family members . it 's not about us going into families , whatever some of the public perception may be . our aim is to get in and get out . so , in terms of long-term intervention , what we want is for families to find their own solutions . we want families to be able to work with each other , and together , and local community support , and preventative services , to be able to address issues . this is not about punitive approaches from social services . so , that 's the first element . in terms of thresholds for children 's services , we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us . there may be a small number of referrals that come through . what we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle . we recognise that 's likely to happen . because we also know that this is actually quite a rare occurrence currently ; this is not a defence that 's being used with great frequency , this is not something that is happening . and if we look at the data , we know that the incidents of children , and the number of parents who now recognise this as an acceptable form of punishment , has steadily declined over the last 15 to 20 years . so it 's diminishing as it is . janet finch-saunders am: so , on that one then , is there a need for legislation that will—obviously there 'll be resources for the welsh government and there 'll be resources out of hours and things like that—is there a need for legislation if , as you say , natural behaviour and the culture is changing ? let 's be honest , as you 've rightly pointed out , in social services—i know in my own authority—in your own authority , you 're saying that even now you 're working with the police , on systematic failings within the system . sally jenkins: two things . firstly , we want legislation that reflects our society—we do n't want the two to be out of kilter . that would be my first natural response : surely our legislation should be reflective of what our world is . it should n't be that we 've got these rather confusing elements running in parallel , and that continues to perpetuate a lack of clarity and the ambiguity that we currently see . i think the other element is that , again , this is about potentially an accelerating of that awareness and that culture in our society , about how we care for our children . we 've got there naturally ; we 've got there by the change that 's happened in wales over the last 15 to 20 years . what this does is to continue with that change and continue with that awareness and understanding of how we positively , from a strength-based approach , should care for our children , bearing in mind what 's required of us in terms of the uncrc . janet finch-saunders am: okay . are there any comments from anyone else ? huw david: simply to say that i think that , in terms of that clarity for the very vulnerable children out there who are currently being assaulted—seriously assaulted and abused by their parents , which goes on on a daily basis—that is already covered by existing legislation . but at the moment , they do n't know , because they could be being told—and they probably are being told—by their parents that 's it 's okay , that they can smack their child and that that 's acceptable . they do n't know the difference . a young child is not going to know that difference and there is confusion about what is— . and if you asked most parents , and in fact lots of professionals , they would not be able to tell you , and probably most of you would n't be able to tell me exactly where is the threshold— janet finch-saunders am: yes , where 's that line . huw david: well , at the moment , we do n't know where that line is . that vulnerable child , at home , being abused by their parents , does not know where that line is . and they should know where that line is because then they can pick up the phone to childline or they can talk to a professional and ask them where that line is . so , that would be a step forward . i do recognise , though , that what we do n't want to do—and the last thing any of us want to do—is criminalise parents who are bringing up their children . that is why we 're saying there needs to be an emphasis on the support programmes that are available to parents . and to be clear , there is no way that we want long-term involvement in any child 's life , but particularly not in the lives of children who have been smacked by their parents . that is not going to be the result of this legislation , trust me , because we do n't want to be involved in—we have n't got the resources to be involved in children 's lives . the social worker or the police officer—if they become involved , then there would be a proportionate response to that , and there 'll also be a test about whether or not that is progressed . so , if there is an allegation—if this legislation is passed—then that will be looked into and a consideration will be made about whether any action will be taken , and as with any allegation of the law being broken , there would be a proportionate response , as there is now . lynne neagle am: and the next question does relate to the practical response to that . janet . janet finch-saunders am: yes . can you outline the practical ways in which social services ' interaction with parents will change as a result of this proposed law and do you envisage that all referrals to the police will be automatically referred to social services for an assessment ? who 's going to make those decisions ? sally jenkins: that will be part of the implementation phase about that decision making . interestingly , the number of referrals that we currently get from the police that we take absolutely no action on is extraordinary . so , we get a very , very large number of— . it will be happening now ; sitting in the civic centre in newport city council will be a whole host of social workers taking in the public protection notifications from overnight . it 's 10 o'clock , so they 're assessing them now , as we speak . and an awful lot of those will have no further action from the local authority . janet finch-saunders am: but will they be investigated ? sally jenkins: no . there will be no action . there are countless referrals made by agencies to local authorities that we take no action on . janet finch-saunders am: so , if there 's an increase as a result of greater awareness— sally jenkins: what happens is there is a paper assessment of them . there 's a look at what 's happened , who 's involved , what the police have reported , and there 's work being done with the police to improve that . because one of the things that we want to get to is actually where we 're not using huge amounts of time to look at that , but what comes to us is what we act on . so , there is work going on with a number of police authorities to look at how you improve that process . but i suppose , to pick up , each incident will be looked at , each one will be assessed in a way that is proportionate , as huw says , to look at what 's happened and then investigated . lynne neagle am: sally , can you give us a couple of examples of what kind of things might have come in that you would then take no action on ? sally jenkins: we get countless referrals , for example , where there 's been a domestic abuse incident overnight where a child was n't present in the property and we then have n't taken action . it ’ ll be where the level of harm that ’ s perceived to happen to that child is below the threshold for intervention from children 's services . janet finch-saunders am: i ’ m pretty cynical about assessment , because , you know , i have people come in who are benefit claimants where , when they ’ ve been assessed , the whole process has been very flawed and i ’ ve had to fight and fight and fight on their behalf . so— sally jenkins: assessment processes within social— janet finch-saunders am: but if you 're struggling now with those assessments— sally jenkins: assessment processes within social services are as laid out in the social services and well-being ( wales ) act 2014. so , we have within what we carry out , i suppose , that kind of initial look , that look at the information , what else do we know about that family— janet finch-saunders am: and are they qualified people that are doing this ? sally jenkins: yes , absolutely . huw david: and , in fact , in lots of places in wales now , it ’ s a multi-agency assessment . so , it ’ s a joint assessment carried out with police professionals and health professionals . janet finch-saunders am: so , what proportion currently would you not be taking any action on , if a report came in of some domestic abuse where a child had perhaps been smacked ? sally jenkins: if something came in to us where a child had been smacked and there was something clearly there , we would look at it . we would clearly look at it and we would take some sort of action . janet finch-saunders am: even now , before the legislation ? sally jenkins: yes . lynne neagle am: can you ask a final question ? and i 'm going to have to appeal for brief answers , because we 've got a lot of ground to cover . huw david: just very quickly , there may be no action from social services , but it doesn ’ t mean that we don ’ t offer support . so , the expectation is that support is offered in those circumstances from family support services , for example— sally jenkins: or prevention . huw david: —or prevention services . so , we would not say , if we were aware , for example , that there was domestic abuse at a home , ‘ there ’ s no role for children ’ s social services ’ , because there may be an assessment that that child may not be at immediate risk of harm , but we would obviously recognise that there are causes for concern there and we would offer that support . so , just to be clear about that . and that ’ s a process that happens in every social services department in the uk , and it ’ s happened for a very long time , and , in fact , it ’ s reflective of the legislation that you have laid down as assembly members . lynne neagle am: and are those services there , huw ? because i ’ m very acutely aware of the pressure on local government . are the services there ? is there sufficient resource in things like families first ? because what i ’ m hearing on the ground is that eligibility is changing for even those preventative services . huw david: there ’ s not enough of those services , and , obviously—you may have heard me saying this before—i think we need to invest more in those services , and i hope you invest more in the services , because , obviously , prevention is better than cure . and those pressures that sally talked about earlier are pressures that are not going away ; they ’ re only increasing by the day , actually , and i would want us to be able to offer those services now . because that example of a child that perhaps is in a home where there is domestic abuse—we ’ ll probably have another referral off them in a couple of months ’ time , and that could escalate . and what i ’ d rather do is provide support to that family and try and stop that family breaking down so that , in six months , we 're not going back and saying that we 've got to take this child into care because the domestic abuse has worsened and that child is at risk . but those services need additional investment . sally jenkins: i appreciate that time is of the essence , but , just really quickly in relation to that , it ’ s not just social services . so , for example , there are developments like encompass , which is a piece of work that is being rolled out across gwent and across other areas , which is where the police automatically notify the school overnight of an incident , not expecting the school to do anything per se , but to be aware , to be able to offer care for that child . alastair birch: can i add to that ? operation encompass i know in gwent has been operational , and we started it in pembrokeshire 18 months ago . we as a local authority—and it ’ ll be education that will contact the school around the domestic incident happening , and the school as part of that protocol will provide a level of universal service support for that child when they come in , before 9 o ’ clock , so that professionals are aware of the needs of the welfare of that child at that point . so , you know , schools play a key role in the universal service of this and we work very closely with our social care colleagues on that . lynne neagle am: okay . janet , your last question , please . janet finch-saunders am: the bill 's explanatory memorandum refers to an estimate of 274 offences annually where lawful chastisement was used as a defence or considered . it says there is also potential to create extra demand on out-of-hours social services teams due to the time that the offences were reported , and in order to support safeguarding measures . have you assessed how this bill will impact on emergency and out-of-hours local authority services ? sally jenkins: we have considered that , and again i think that 's something that we would very much want to look at as part of implementation . we have out-of-hours provision , we have emergency duty teams already across wales that operate 24/7 . there 's no doubt that they exist and they work very closely with our police colleagues . janet finch-saunders am: are they overstretched at the moment ? sally jenkins: i think in the same way as all of social services is . if we were offered additional resource , we are going to take that . but are they working in a way that protects children day in , day out , and vulnerable adults ? yes , they are , and they will continue to do so . lynne neagle am: thank you very much . we 've got some specific questions now on the impact on education from jayne bryant . jayne bryant am: thank you , chair . good morning . alastair , you 've already mentioned about awareness raising and training , which will be key with educational professionals . how confident are you that teachers and others working in those educational settings will be clear about how to support the implementation of this bill , if enacted ? alastair birch: training requirements for all professionals in education settings are clear . the universal tier 1 training is there , and all local authorities in wales will implement that . in that level of general safeguarding awareness and training , the infinite emphasis is on the duty to report . that will remain the same . the thresholds for social care , that 's their responsibility . that duty to report will always be there . it says in 'keeping learners safe ' , which is the bible in terms of education professionals , that there 's a responsibility on the professional to make that referral and for that universal service . so , the more specialist safeguarding leads within the schools , who have become highly skilled professionals in terms of understanding what might be significant harm—because that 's what we 're talking about—they understand the legalities when a referral needs to be made . there 's always the collation of safeguarding information , where there might be just general concerns about neglect and other areas , which combined would create a picture that there might be significant neglect or significant harm to the child , and then that referral would be made to the child care assessment team or the police . so , that awareness—it needs to be clear for educational professionals that that duty to report is always there . if they believe that that significant harm has happened then that report then goes to the child care assessment team . they will make the judgment on the threshold because they are the professionals . they have the multi-agency awareness of how that meets the threshold . but in terms of education , it 'll be that awareness , making sure that there 's clarity . if there 's anything that professionals need to be trained additionally on , it 'll need to go into 'keeping learners safe ' , which at the moment is being rewritten . so , there would have to be some new possible information there relating to this . but as long as there 's clarity , and once that implementation phase and the discussion has happened , as long as it 's clear for professionals that the duty is always there and they feel a significant harm , then that report will always be there and will always need to be made . it 's making sure—and i 'll echo what my colleague said , huw—that the services are key for families . schools are absolutely fundamental in that support for the families . they have those relationships with the families . i know there was discussion around professional trust . on a daily basis , professionals are working on that trust with parents , because they are the ones that can engage with those families . the family support officers that are working on the ground with highly complex families , with multiple leads and supporting the children—they are fundamental , and investment in that level of support would also help our colleagues as well . so , anything that 's preventative . that is already happening in schools and is effective , and is shown to be effective , and has an evidence base—we 'd always support that that would continue to be invested in . so , that 's really my answer . jayne bryant am: okay . and you were saying about how important trust is as well , but do you think that there 's a risk that those in education settings will have a key role in referring more parents to social services , which some have said could cause potential harm to relationships and cause mistrust ? alastair birch: i do n't think it 's a matter of mistrust—it 's a matter of , you know , if a professional believes , based on the evidence that they have , because they 're working with that child every day , that there is significant harm to that child , they are under a duty to report that to social care . so , part of the work is with families , and most of the referrals we make are with parental consent . that consent is a key element of this , and conversation with our social care colleagues is usually , 'you need to speak to the parents again and have a conversation with them . ' some of the nfas—the ones that do n't get referred at threshold—it will come back to school for , possibly , some support from the family or a team around the family or some other aspect . so , i do n't think— . the trust in the professionals—it 's actually more important that we are seen to be upholding our duties under the all-wales safeguarding procedures . that 's what engenders trust in a professional workforce . jayne bryant am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you very much . we 're going to move on now to some questions about the importance of awareness raising from siân gwenllian . sian gwenllian am: good morning . in looking at your written evidence , you say that we must make it very clear to parents , guardians and the public that this legislation is not trying to criminalise parents , and that is clearly very important for you . how do you think we should do that and who should be doing that work ? sally jenkins: i think that 's really broad . obviously , colleagues in education , colleagues in social care , colleagues in preventative services , but also welsh government and the national assembly , in terms of those drivers in relation to that awareness raising are really , really key . if you look at some of the other campaigns that have been run , notably in relation to violence against women , domestic abuse and sexual violence , and echoing some of those building campaigns that have been done to raise awareness—i think those would be really good models to begin to consider in terms of how this is taken forward with awareness . we also know that there are a number of routes that we can go through in terms of raising awareness . we have existing preventative services , we have all our universal services , we have the regional safeguarding boards and the national safeguarding boards . so , there are a number of avenues that we could then explore . in terms of not wishing to criminalise , i think if we look at the numbers , they are very , very small . and i think one of the things we need to hold on to in this is a sense of proportion about what is or is n't likely to happen once or if this bill ever gets to the point of royal assent—they are small numbers who currently use this defence . it is about that wider issue of awareness raising , and using all of those avenues will help us to do that in the broadest sense . sian gwenllian am: do you , therefore , believe that this needs to be on the face of the bill ? that is , you do n't say this in your evidence . i 'd like to know your opinion on that . scotland is going to be making it a duty for scottish ministers to raise awareness of the impact of the bill . so far , the welsh government says that we do n't need to do that in wales . would n't it make it clearer for you if it was a clear duty on the face of the bill , for example as it was with the human transplantation ( wales ) act 2013 ? there was a duty in that act for ministers to promote transplantation . surely , that awareness raising aspect would be clearer for everyone if it was on the face of the bill . do you have an opinion on that ? huw david: well , welsh government have given that commitment , and i know the welsh government honour every commitment that they make— [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: that 's why i 'm asking . huw david: i do n't know whether that is necessary—i 'm not a legislator . i think that there 's obviously an inherent interest in welsh government raising awareness , because we have to raise awareness effectively for this to be successful , otherwise we will have parents who feel that they 're being criminalised , and that 's the last thing we want . i think it 's worthy of consideration , but , as i say , i 'm not a legislator or a lawyer , so i do n't know what implications that will have long term . but to be fair to welsh government , i think that commitment is one that i 'm sure will be honoured , because welsh government will want to make a success of this bill if it does receive royal assent . sian gwenllian am: okay . but is it clear who would pay for all of that ? huw david: i 've suddenly changed my mind— [ laughter . ] i think it should be a duty on welsh government ministers—absolutely . i do n't need to check with lawyers or legislators . there we go . and that 's the wlga position ; i do n't need to ask the other 21 leaders on that either . [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: would n't it make it clearer if there was a clear duty on the face of the bill that awareness raising had to happen ? it would be clearer , then , for local authorities and people in the front-line services what needs to happen . sally jenkins: i 'm going to echo huw . [ laughter . ] sian gwenllian am: i thought you might . okay , fine . lynne neagle am: okay . we 're moving on now , then , to the contentious issue of resources and we 've got some questions from hefin . hefin david am: sally jenkins , you said that the purpose of the bill is to bring clarity and to remove what is a little-used defence . is n't this an expensive way of doing that ? sally jenkins: i do n't think so , no . i think that our children deserve the best legislation . hefin david am: but introducing this legislation diverts finances from other areas of children 's services—or does n't ? sally jenkins: well , i would say , no , i do n't think it will divert resources from children 's services . firstly , going back to the comment made , i think , proportionally , this is a very small number of cases . it 's a very small number of existing cases that go through in terms of prosecution , or consideration for prosecution . we know that it 's likely , from some of the work that we 've already done , that it 's not opening floodgates for a sudden sea of referrals to children 's services—that 's not the way this is going to be , because the numbers are not out there because of the changes that have already happened in welsh family life and welsh society . so , i think as part of the implementation phase , we need to have a really clear understanding of the trajectory of those costs and what 's likely to happen over the first six months , 12 months in terms of people 's awareness and understanding and what is referred and how that 's worked . but in terms of a huge number , no , i do n't anticipate it being that . hefin david am: but the costs would n't just be directed to the number of referrals and the number of cases raised , it 's the cost around that , with training of staff , awareness—all those extra additional costs that always come with legislation . is it too much ? is it— ? sally jenkins: no . and i agree with that—that there clearly are—but if you think , many of those things will be aligned with work we are already doing , but it brings a clarity to that work . so , our teachers , our social workers , our health workers , our police officers already get substantial training around child protection , around safeguarding , around adverse childhood experiences and around a trauma-informed approach to children . what this does is it layers a clarity on that . but rather than having a part of that training , which has to deal with this as an aspect—that is no longer there ; it is a clear message for all professions . hefin david am: i fully appreciate that , and in the briefing note you 've given us , you 've outlined the pressures on social services . so , do you think this is another way of getting money into social services ? sally jenkins: if this was a way of getting money into— . i can think of better ways , but i do n't think this is it . no , i mean , i absolutely do not think that . i think this is a clear commitment to the rights of children in wales ; this is not about levering additional resources into children 's services . oh that it was so simple . hefin david am: okay . and , do you think those costs are quantifiable ? sally jenkins: i think we are currently looking at work and are doing work across my own local authority and across two others to look at breaking down those costs , not just for local authority , but also for health , for police and for children and family court advisory and support service cymru . so , there is work currently taking place to try to quantify those costs . hefin david am: okay . i think there was a bit about local authorities that siân— lynne neagle am: okay . siân gwenllian has got a question on resources . sian gwenllian am: yes , just to carry on from that , in a way . the explanatory memorandum that accompanies the bill talks about the unknown costs for different agencies . you mentioned there that you 're doing work around trying to identify some of those costs , but would n't it be useful if the explanatory memorandum did explain more about any unknown or unidentified costs , partly in order to calm some of those fears around that ? giving a title 'unidentified costs'—is that good enough ? sally jenkins: i think , clearly , that is a challenge , and that is work that we are participating in and are committed to completing with welsh government , to look at what those costs are . sian gwenllian am: and then they can be added into this . huw david: i think this is where it would be helpful in the committee 's deliberations and where our concern would be , because the reality is we 're not going to know what the costs are until it 's actually implemented , because we have n't implemented this before . and , therefore , i think there needs to be a commitment that , whatever the costs are , those costs are met because it is legislation that is being led by the national assembly for wales . and whilst we do n't see it as levering in additional resources , we do n't think it should be at the expense of current service provision to vulnerable families in wales , and therefore it 's important that it is properly and fully resourced . sian gwenllian am: what i would argue on that is that you have to try and forecast . you say it 's difficult to forecast how much this is going to cost , but we have to try and forecast that , and part of the argument for trying to have projections is to show that , perhaps , it 's not going to cost that much , and that would add to the argument that , 'okay , this is going to be fine to do and it 's not going to put too much pressure on us ' . or we need to know that this is going to cost a lot to do it effectively , and therefore you have to make your argument , then , 'well , we ca n't afford that , the money has to come from somewhere else . ' we have to get the costs , surely . huw david: yes , and we will work very closely with welsh government to try and establish those costs as quickly as possible . there will be some costs that we will be able to identify . so , for example , a campaign , an awareness-raising campaign , the marketing , if you like , but some of the other costs will be more difficult to establish in terms of the resource implications for front-line workers . i expressed a view that we need to see some additional investment in some of those programmes that are not targeted directly at families that would be impacted by this but support all families across wales that have different needs , and some of that provision is universal . obviously , my view is the more we put into that , the better . so , there 's no limit to that , but i suspect welsh government will take a very different view to that . but i think that is something where we need to see a commitment to some additional resources . but i do n't put an upper limit on that , because i do n't think there 's an authority in wales , and i do n't think there 's a charity , a police service or a health board in wales that does n't think that we need to do more of that and could offer more of that if the resources were available . sian gwenllian am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . we 've come to the end of our time , so can i thank you all for attending and for answering all of our questions ? it 's been a really useful and informative discussion . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you again , all of you , for coming . huw david: and thank you for your questions and engagement . we welcome the opportunity . alastair birch: thank you very much . sally jenkins: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: okay , item 3 is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the minister for housing and local government—additional information for our inquiry into school funding . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for health and social services on in-patient child and adolescent mental health services provision , and i would like to briefly return to that when we go into private . are members happy to note those ? thank you . item 4 , then : can i propose a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? thank you .

huw david said he was not sure whether this was necessary or not since he was not a legislator . obviously , he thought there was an inherent interest in welsh government raising awareness . this was worthy of consideration . then he said this should be a duty on welsh government ministers .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: uh , making a profit of fifty million euros . industrial designer: alright so twenty five . user interface: mm 'kay . project manager: so , it 's go gon na have to be be pretty damn trendy . industrial designer: so yeah , i 've the only the only remote controls i 've used usually come with the television , and they 're fairly basic . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so uh project manager: yeah , i was thinking that as well , i think the the only ones that i 've seen that you buy are the sort of one for all type things where they 're , user interface: yeah the universal ones . yeah . industrial designer: mm . project manager: yeah . so presumably that might be an idea to put into . industrial designer: but but to sell it for twenty five you need a lot of neat features . for sure . marketing: slim . project manager: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: uh 'cause i mean , what uh twenty five euros , that 's about i dunno , fifteen pounds or so ? and that 's quite a lot for a remote control . user interface: mm-hmm , it 's about that . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: user interface: um well my first thoughts would be most remote controls are grey or black . as you said they come with the tv so it 's normally just your basic grey black remote control functions , project manager: uh-huh . user interface: so maybe we could think about colour ? project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: make that might make it a bit different from the rest at least . um , and as you say , we need to have some kind of gimmick , so um i thought maybe something like if you lose it and you can whistle , project manager: okay . the the keyrings , yeah yeah . user interface: you know those things ? because we always lose our remote control . industrial designer: right . marketing: uh yeah uh , project manager: okay , that 's cool . marketing: being as a marketing exper expert i will like to say like before deciding the cost of this remote control or any other things we must see the market potential for this product like what is the competition in the market ? what are the available prices of the other remote controls in the prices ? project manager: okay . marketing: what speciality other remote controls are having and how complicated it is to use these remote controls as compared to other remote controls available in the market . so before deciding or before finalising this project , we must discuss all these things , like user interface: okay . marketing: and apart from this , it should be having a good look also , because people really li uh like to play with it when they are watching movies or playing with or playing with their c_d_ player , m_p_ three player like any electronic devices . user interface: mm . mm-hmm . marketing: they really want to have something good , having a good design in their hands , project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: so , yes , project manager: 'kay . marketing: all this . industrial designer: uh , what do we think a project manager: so , we 're looking for 'kay . industrial designer: what do we think a good size would be for this ? project manager: we 're marketing: industrial designer: 'cause i i know as you add more buttons to the remote it sometimes gets so big and clunky project manager: sorry , carry on . user interface: industrial designer: and there 's just like a hundred buttons on it , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: or you could have a really small slim one but then you could lose it easily . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . then you lose it , yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: kind of um , maybe more like a p_d_a_ kind of , just hand held , like , project manager: for for uh user interface: 'cause project manager: remember we 're trying to make it for twelve euros fifty . user interface: yeah . no , i was n't , no sorry i was n't thinking of the screen of like a p_d_a_ project manager: okay well right we 'll have to um i 'll user interface: but project manager: we 're k having another meeting in half an hour so um user interface: okay . project manager: we should all look into a bit uh , oh actually , no , we 'll allocate . so you do the looking around at other remote controls . marketing: yeah . project manager: um , if you could maybe come up with sort of shapes and suggested shades or whatever , and you could look into um basically how how it 's made i_e_ like how you make it all in one , how what sort of materials are available to you whatever . and obviously , other instructions will come from the personal coach . industrial designer: right . project manager: which will probably just usurp what i said so user interface: so you want me to look at shapes and everything you said ? project manager: shapes and colours and um basically how to make it attractive . user interface: yep . okay . project manager: uh . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: project manager: and you look at competition and design . marketing: yep . project manager: cool . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: so industrial designer: project manager: we have uh industrial designer: wait for emails ? marketing: uh . project manager: um . industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: hmm . project manager: industrial designer: project manager: okay , groovy . and no doubt we 'll get um user interface: oh no , . project manager: sorry . user interface: sorry project manager: we 'll get um warnings for next meetings as well . user interface: it 's okay . okay , cool . project manager: okay . i shall i ca n't imagine these are worth much . marketing: hmm . project manager: okay . fashion into electronic . okay .

the meeting was mainly about the exchange of the preliminary ideas about a new tv remote control project and subsequent task assignment . the project manager first set a target of making a fifty million euros ' profit from the project , with the unit price of twenty-five euros . afterwards , the team raised different opinions about features of the new remote controls and related questions about market potential . among all the features , having a good look and size was unanimously considered to be the most essential . in the end , marketing was assigned to investigate market competition and design , and user interface thinking about shapes , colours and other attributes which would attract customers .